December 17, 2024 • 33 mins
Few topics are as important to the Packers as mental health. In this episode, they take a second to reflect on where this passion stems from. From Anya's initiative to bring a sports psychologist onto the Riveters team to Madison advocating for suicide prevention on the ice, they share how these moments fueled their commitment to change the hockey community for the better. They also open up about their own struggles with depression and anxiety, and why they encourage their kids to embrace honesty and openness about their emotions at home. Most importantly, they share the resources and tips that helped them get through challenging times. If you're struggling, know that you're not alone—we see you, we hear you, and we love you.
If you or someone you know is experiencing thoughts of suicide, please reach out to the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline by dialing 988.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Just the heads up for our listeners today that our
episode touches on topics like suicidal ideation, depression, and other
sensitive mental health content which may be triggering for some people.
If you are experiencing any of these feelings or know
someone that is, please know that it is okay to
share these feelings. We urge you to call or text
nine to eight eight, a confidential suicide and crisis hotline
(00:21):
available twenty four to seven.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer. I'm a recently retired pro
hockey vet. I was a founding member of the National
Women's Hockey League, a Pillar in the PHF, and an
inaugural member of the PWHL Sirens.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
And I'm Anya Packer, also a former pro hockey player
and now a full Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Stan Banya and I met through hockey and now we're
married and moms, so two awesome toddlers, ages two and four.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
And this is these Packspot where we talk about everything
for professional women's athletes, to sports, to raising children and
all the messiness in between. Hello everybody, welcome back. You
have your favorite duo here. Today's a pretty unique episode, Babe.
We don't have anyone with us Today solo episode, A
solo episode with the two some you love the most. Today,
(01:12):
we're going to talk about all the things, but we're
going to spend a lot of time on mental health. Mattie.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I'm excited for this conversation. It's something that you and
I talk a lot about in our house. We talk
a lot about it with the kids.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I think this is probably our most vulnerable topic, don't
you think, Babe.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, And I want to make clear we are not
mental health experts. However, we are both really passionate about
providing spaces for people to feel seen, feel heard, share
our story, relate with other people who may have similar struggles.
The world can be hard, so I'm excited to talk
about it today and let listeners learn a little bit
more about us in our journeys and hopefully inspire them
(01:48):
to recognize that there are platforms out there that are
there to help.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Totally, and it doesn't mean that we aren't going to
talk about our favorite thing in the world. So, without
any further ado, get ready for our Hockey Hot Day.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Hot the hot take, Anya.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
My hot take for the day is the pressure of
perfection is crippling, particularly in sports.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Totally. I love that hot take because I genuinely believe
that we look at athletes, we look at the upper
upper estalon and compare that every day, and if we
are trying to pace the lead car, how challenging it
is for our young athletes, any athlete in general, to
feel like they have any confidence whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
And I think that pressure exists everywhere. Right whatever job
you're working, you're comparing yourself. There's pressure, You're stressed. But
I think the unique aspect to sports and maybe some
other entertainment fields is that you are subjected to scrutiny
from the public. You're performing in front of thousands, millions
of people, Like the pressure is constantly on, and when
(02:56):
you make a mistake, it's going to get picked apart.
And everyone is naturally going to compare you to so
and so. They know how much money you're making, so
you are expected to be that much better. And the
reality is it's impossible to be one one hundred percent
of the time. And I think that we put extra
pressure and expectation on athletes because it's like, oh, they're
making all this money playing a sport, but it's really
(03:18):
hard to get your body to perform how you want
it to every single day when you need it to,
Like sometimes it just can't no matter how good you are.
And in my opinion, those athletes, they put enough pressure
on themselves, but it comes from everywhere, and they don't
really have the same leeway to fail and learn and
try to succeed. In my opinion, I think a lot
of it also comes from the passion that you have
(03:39):
to be successful. I mean, I think about this when
I look at my own nine to five, my passion
stops at five PM.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I don't really care that much more. It's a job.
I cluck and I clock out. When I look at
my pro hockey days, my job was my life and
I loved it. I loved going to the rink. I
loved getting on the ice. I was crushed after a
bad game. And I think that that desire to want,
Like I want to win at work. I like being
(04:06):
number one, But when I'm not, I'm not going to
stew about it at night. If I lose a hockey
game all night, I'll think about that. So I think
that's like another element too, and there's a huge part
of it that comes from within and people don't recognize that.
Like confidence can be the coach that tells you you're great. Sure,
it can also be your teammates that lean on you
when the game is on the line. Sure, but the
(04:27):
part of you that tells you that you are good
is so hugely important, and I think we all forget that,
Like pressure is a privilege, but there's a certain privilege
to thinking that you can handle that pressure.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah, and I think the biggest difference every time you
jump a level, right from youth to high school to college,
it gets a little more competitive. There's that edge for
those spots. Everyone's trying to get them. And as much
physical preparation as you do, and the time you spend
on the ice in the gym, if it's not hockey,
it's basketball, whatever court field, you have to spend the
same amount of energy an effort on your mental health
(05:02):
using sports psite, getting proper sleep, proper recovery, eating the
right way because we look at it, especially as athletes,
but I think everybody, like when you break your arm,
you put a cast on it and you expect it
to get better.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
There's a timeline.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
But when you're trying to you know, hype yourself up
or have confidence going into a situation, or you can't
figure out why you can't get out of your own head.
There's training there that exists, and there's exercises that you
can do, and there are resources available to those athletes.
And that's the biggest thing as you climb levels is
that you have to have that mental preparation and you
have to have that mental training because if you don't,
(05:35):
it's almost impossible to succeed and to stay at that level.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Okay, so you're talking about the ice work and then
the mental work, but just the art of sitting down
and visualizing yourself with the jersey on in that game
crucial moment, having success at the basket, whatever it is
right that can increase your success at that thing. Like,
I have to let that sink in because the reality
is so frequently tell themselves that they cannot do things.
(06:02):
I could never do that, I could never be like her,
I could never skate like that person, and then you've
told yourself that you can't do it. And I think
in our sport, because we're on that emerging train, it's
not like we've had sports like our whole career, Maddie,
I think like you know best than most, but across
a ten year career. When were you introduced to a
sports psych in pro women's hockey?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, I mean when I was at Wisconsin, we didn't
have full time on staff a sports psych. We had
one available to us if we needed it, But that's
also uncomfortable, right to have to go to your trainer,
to your coach to explain who you need to talk to,
why you need to talk to them. There were so
many barriers in place. And that's not a knock on Wisconsin.
I was there from twenty ten to twenty fourteen. It
(06:43):
was just a different time. We've come a long way
in ten fifteen years in our conversation around mental health
and the recognition that athletes need those resources. But then
as I went into the pros, there was nothing that
existed in the beginning. It wasn't until my time with
the Riveters under you, Frankly, when you were the GM
when we took a real look at what was going
on and we worked with Baker Street and we had
(07:04):
a full psych team available to us, a facility that
we could go to if we wanted to to learn
different training exercises and things for our brains. But it
wasn't until we had that resource and then I think
doctor Joe, who is the head of Baker Street, the
gentleman that we dealt with, he said that our team,
like ninety eight percent of our athletes use their resources,
and he said that the women's teams that they work
(07:26):
with use those resources so much more frequently than the men,
which I thought was interesting. But you could see a
real difference in the athletes and their confidence and their
ability to manage stress and things like that when we
had those resources compared to when we didn't.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Completely. I mean that took off on a whole different
level too, because we then scaled it across the league
and said this works in New York, it needs to
work elsewhere. Change comes from somebody standing up front and
as a former athlete myself and then I ran the
players Association. Every time I looked at the gap and
I said, sports SYC would really be important here. These
women are dealing with so much and.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
The athletes didn't have it were upset.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
That's why it rolled out to the whole league because
people looked at that and they were like, wait, why
do they get that right? And you see that a
lot when like teams have nicer clubhouses or more you know,
they get to fly differently, whatever, But when you're talking
about a resource like that, like you wouldn't think that
it would be so bothersome. And it was like an
immediate red flag from players on other teams that were like, Hey,
we need that. We should all have that. That shouldn't
be an add on or a benefit for New York.
(08:26):
That should be something that everyone has access to. And
all the players agreed. I mean the players in New
York were like, yeah, it makes a real difference. They
should all have it.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Because to your original point, that pressure creates that crippling
sport problem. But knowing where you're at and knowing you
can communicate that is so hugely important so that you
can also self define your limit, like how much pressure
is too much pressure for you as an athlete when
you need to start to reach out for that resource,
or can you preemptively manage how do you balance the pressure?
(08:53):
So all those questions kind of come up within that conversation.
But truthfully, at the end of the day, it's the
importance of taking your mental health and making it a
priority as an athlete, as a mother, as a person
in any way, shape or form. If your mental health
isn't at the utmost of the important first part of
the conversation, it's not worth having any of it because
(09:14):
nobody can do anything without the self reflection and the
love to take care of your mind over everything else.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
And it's why we have put so much emphasis with
the kids, particularly with Whalen, and now that Harlan's a
little bit older and we'll start to understand more a
little bit. After the season started last year, it became
a really big thing for me and for you to
teach Whalen that he's not allowed to say can't. Whalen
is not allowed to say I can't anything, and when
he says it, we correct him, right, We say, that
(09:42):
might be hard, that might seem challenging, and you may
not be able to do it right now, but you
can do anything. And that's so important because my whole
life playing boys hockey, right, you two people tell you
that you can't and you won't, and you work in
spite of that to show them and prove them wrong.
But like for me as a kid, not having any tools,
just wanting to ppw and prove people wrong and show
(10:05):
the boys and like, you know, gotcha, I guess them
rolling into the pros, then having a coach who similarly
doubted me, and me just thinking oh, I'm going to
show in, but not having any like resources or tools
to really coach myself in that moment when you're told
that you're not good enough or that you don't belong
day after day after.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Day, you believe it.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Yeah, you have no way of like affirming to yourself.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
I didn't have those tools in my toolbox to stand
in front of a mirror and say yes, you can.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Well, it feels clunky to do that.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Yeah, and it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
You were the one that were like, I want you
to go in the bathroom and do these things and
say this in front of a mirror and say it
out loud.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Don't write it down. You have to say it look
yourself in the face. And it works. And it's hard
for sure.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I mean there are still days where it creeps back
in right because it's been instilled in my brain. But
it's why it's so important now with our kids to
teach them no, forget about that. People are going to
tell you a million things on your journey to wherever
you're going. You can do anything if the you inside
of you believes that you can, and that voice has
to be louder than any and it's so important that
(11:08):
people start practicing that as quickly and as soon as
they can, because I think that to your point, you
have just so much confidence. You've probably been doing those
exercises and been leaning on those tools. You have been
for longer than me, you know what I mean. And
it's just I wish sometimes that I could just have
that confidence. Just they don't mean that, or I'm going
to show them, like, it's hard when you start to
(11:29):
doubt yourself and you don't have the ability to bring
yourself back.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
I totally agree, and I think that's why we do
our check in. That's why we believe, like because I
think there's always something that you can reach for. There's
always a tool that you can reach for. So in
the interest of it, I want to know where you're at.
I kind of want to get a check in. I
want to know how things have been progressing, especially since
you're introducing some new skills to your tool set, and
then kind of dive into some of those tools, some
of the things that we're using. If we're not at
(11:54):
that one hundred.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Percent, Yeah, for sure, I think today I'm probably a
sixty five.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Okay, So I was.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Feeling really crummy I think when I came home, But
then talking to you, doing some affirmations, looking at the
whole picture brought me up a little bit good.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
I mean, I feel like sixty five is a solid number.
I think I'm rocking out about n eighty. I feel solid.
We had a great day yesterday. The kids were very
well behaved, so like that's always kicks my morning off. Well,
took everyone to school, everyone was happy, got some errands done,
got some work done. Talking to you now, feel like
we've got no problems. I'm a solid eighty.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
We got date night tonight.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
I laugh, Yeah, I got date night tonight. Gonna wash
my hair maybe, like it'll be pretty amazing, I'll feel
pretty spectacular. Maybe at ninety five after that happens. And
then like kind of like thinking about that and where
I'm at right now at eighty percent, and I think,
you know, most of the time, if nothing bad has happened,
I hum around of fifty. I can't lie. I deal
(12:58):
with depression, and a humongous element for that for me
is to be able to look at you and just
get a hug. I always say I don't think I
could date anyone that was smaller than me because I
like the feeling of being like little and like needing
a hug or like needing that thing. So when you're
upset and when you come home and when you're having
like a tough day, you know, I try to be
(13:20):
this bigger than myself person to give you that like love,
if it's a hug or if it's like look at me,
like you can do it, Like you can do it
whatever you want, Like I do the same thing that
I watch you do to our kids, and I think
that makes me feel good. I think it makes me
feel good to help you and to know that you
might have been really self doubting or really in a
bad headspace and then brought yourself out of it, because
(13:40):
I know how much you can help me with that
as well. So I think, like I look at where
I'm at a huge lever to what has probably made
me feel so great today is knowing that you had
a great morning, you maybe had a tough afternoon, and
not you're feeling a lot better, And so that's important
to me. I love you.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Hear might pick me up, Peanut, butter Cup, pick me up?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Peanututter cup, I would happily be that. So, Maddie, we're back.
We just talked a whole bunch about sports and pressure
and mental health as it applies to sports and performance.
But now let's dial it back a little bit. I
(14:24):
really want to dive into what we care about, why
we are so passionate about it, and really why we've
centered our story and platform around momming of course, but
mental health in that landscape and what it looks like
and why we're so passionate about it.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
So, I think for me, it all started when I
was seventeen. I had a teammate at the time, Kelly Schuyer,
who took her own life, and that was the first
time in my life that I can remember where I
dealt with any tragedy or trauma like to that point,
I had had a pretty great life as a kid,
and that didn't ruin my life any means, But that
(15:01):
was a pretty horrible thing to have to go through
and to see someone else's family go through. And I
think for me, a thing that a lot of people
point out, yourself included, I have really high like emotional
intelligence and like a lot of empathy, and when I
see someone else going through something, even someone I don't know,
Like we can't walk by a single homeless person in
Manhattan who I don't buy a sandwich for, and that's
(15:22):
not even like a performative I make me feel so good,
Like I feel badly for that person, right, And so
watching her family go through that and not even understanding
conceptually what suicide was, what depression was. Like my family,
we didn't talk about mental health. That wasn't something that
was ever discussed in our house. I then got involved
with an organization project, SEMICOL, and started educating myself more
(15:45):
on the mental health crisis, particularly suicide and the number
of people that struggle with depression and things like that.
And the more I tried to educate myself and learn,
the bigger the problem got. Right over the years, it's
gotten worse and worse and worse, especially in the States,
and then you fast forward to where we're at now.
(16:07):
I've lost countless people to suicide, tons of close friends,
unfortunately to accidental drug overdose.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
And it's all connected. It's all related.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And in looking what was happening around me, it encouraged
me to look what was happening within me and understand
myself better and learning that I needed to do work
on myself and have resources for myself because I have
really bad anxiety. I just always thought that I was
like a nervous person or like shy, and it's not
that at all. I have anxiety, and that's something that
(16:38):
I didn't even know I had because I didn't know
how to talk about it and I didn't have the
resources available to me at the times to deal with it.
And now that I do, it's like lifting such a
huge weight in knowing that I can talk about what
I'm going through and knowing that I have tools and
people there to help me when I need it. And
so I think for me, like the passion comes from
(16:58):
seeing the really negative side of it, experiencing some of
it myself, and wanting to help make better a problem
that is just crippling our country. I mean, suicide and
overdose are in the top ten of leading causes of
death in our country right now for people under fifty.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
That's crazy when you think about it now.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Conversely, when I was growing up, you know, we talked
about mental health a lot, my brother and myself. We
both have challenges with depression, with suicidal ideation. We both
were hospitalized after attempts on our own lives. So you know,
not that that makes it normal in any way, shape
or form, but in my house, it was something that
plagued us early, often and all the time. That's really hard.
(17:37):
And so when you grow up and you live in
this world where it looks like that, and you've touched that,
and you've seen that, and I've talked about it since
the day I even got a remote platform. You know,
the second I started playing Division one hockey, I thought,
I'm going to tell everybody that this happened, because four
years ago I didn't even know that I wanted to
be here, let alone be playing for Boston University, let
(17:58):
alone be playing professional. Howkey, there are children that otherwise
would think that it was only them, that they were
the only person that felt that way. And so that
is why I have always pushed everybody I know and love,
and even you and myself out of our comfort zone
to talk about those things, because there's going to be
(18:18):
a little kid that looks up to you and says,
I have anxiety, I have depression, I have these things.
I'm not alone. My favorite hockey player goes through the
same thing, and I always felt really passionate, like if I,
at fifteen years old, feeling the most alone I've ever
felt in my entire life, knew that my aspirational goal
(18:39):
being a professional hockey player, that my favorite hockey player
said that that's normal and okay, and I can get
through it. I can guarantee you I would have had
a different couple months when I was in high school.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Well yeah, And I think that normalizing the conversation around
mental health not the behavior, because you obviously don't ever
want someone to hurt themselves. You don't want anyone to
be thinking like that. You don't want people to feel
the press like it's sad, and you want people to
feel like they have the ability to talk about it,
because the only thing, in my opinion, worse than suffering
(19:09):
in that way is feeling like.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
You're going through it completely alone.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yes, And because I think that we associate mental health with,
you know, all these stigmas that exist out there, Oh,
if they're doing drugs, they must be homeless in this
and that there's a lot that goes into someone's story,
and even if they are, what does it matter.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
It's a human being.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
And I think the introduction of social media has made
it one hundred thousand times worse because now right the
snap of a finger, you have access to everyone.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
You're comparing yourself to everyone.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
No one puts a bad day on Instagram, right, Like
the time that you leave the gas pump in your
coffee's on the top of the car and you pull
away and the whole thing implodes.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Like you don't snap a picture of that and put
it on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
The three times in one month that you drove away
with your wallet on your roof of your car and
lost it three separate times in one month.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Facts, never put that on my story.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
But like it's always you know, the family photo and this,
and that's great.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
You want to share the happy parts of your life.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
But it's important that we all recognize as humanity that
everyone has a hard day. Everyone can relate to having
a hard day. When you see someone in the grocery
store who's just like crimugeny, it's like, rather than being like,
oh that person a jerk, how about oh, yeah, I
can relate they probably had a bad day.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah, they're probably kicking it at a solid twenty and
they have to go grocery shopping.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, they got to go to the grocery store. It's
out of what they want. Like, it's just bringing more
empathy back into all of us. The more technology is
infused into our lives, in my opinion, the harder it gets,
and we have lost a little bit of that like
ability to understand, and we need to have more conversation
and be more comfortable talking with one another, not just
(20:47):
about the great things, because it's all a hugely important
part of the bigger picture.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
And without the struggle, there.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Is no success, Like you don't just wake up and
find yourself on the top of the mountain.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
I think the other thing is like, when we are depressed,
we do this so it can show somebody tangibly that
there is a way out. I like so much that
I can say, here are some things that I do.
Here are some ways that I heal. Here are some
exercises that I try, or here's a resource group I loved,
here's a hotline that I called. You know, different things
(21:34):
that can save a life. And I think when I
first started talking about with mental health, I would just
be like, this is my story. There it is right,
and now I've decided like this is my story. Here
are resources that we need. You know, you went to
a Jed Foundation event and I remember you left and
you were just like, the things that they are doing
in high schools today is saving lives, and we don't
(21:55):
recognize how much mental health is stealing lives. And so
I think that there's a way to move forward now
in my life. I know there are tools that I
have that I can use, and I think that is
the most important conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
I love everything that you just said, but to your
point about the JET Foundation, after that event, I felt
for the first time, like actually so hopeful about the
direction that we're moving from a resource standpoint. I remember
when Kyle Pavone, who was a good childhood friend of mine.
He was the singer for the band became as Romans.
He died of an accidental drug overdose in the summer
(22:33):
of twenty eighteen.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
He passed away suddenly.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
And I remember after that happened, there had been a
few other kids that had gone to Marian, which was
my high school brother Rice, the school that my brothers
went to a few of the other surrounding private schools
who had committed suicide or accidentally overdosed, and it opened
my eyes to this huge wide problem that we had.
And I went to my school and the person that
I spoke with is no longer at the school, but
(22:57):
I was playing pro hockey at the time. I was like,
I want to come back and give my time for
free to your students, to your student athletes. I want
to talk to kids about the pressures of what's going
on in the world right now, talk to them about
real life, show them that you can go through all
those things. I've gone through a lot of them too,
and this is what it can look like on the
other side. And they're like, no, no way, we're not
(23:18):
touching that with a ten foot poll. They wouldn't do
it because they didn't know on how to do it,
I think, but also it's such a sensitive topic, like
no one wants to be liable or responsible, right, So
they were like, we can't do that, and then unfortunately
the problem got worse and worse.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
People don't also want to admit the problem. It's a
weakness thing, right, People assume weakness in mental health challenges,
and that's to your point, the stigma, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
And it's a huge problem.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Unfortunately, a lot of people take the approach of well,
it's not really my problem, and you know, I can
only focus on so many things. And then you know,
it's in your neighborhood, and then it's in your backyard,
and then it's at your front doorstep, and then it's
in your living room and you care. Like with me,
that's the progression of what happened. And I started getting involved.
But it wasn't until you know, a really good friend
(24:06):
of mine passed away suddenly that I was like, enough,
there has to be something more that we can do.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
And that's when I got involved with Jed.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
You know, every season, I pledge money to different organizations
that are doing work in the LGBTQ plus community to
help kids with their mental health. It's a huge problem,
huge and we need people to care about it. And
people are slowly caring more and more about it. But
you just don't want to wait until it's a personal, real,
big problem to be like, Okay, yeah, there's something that
we can do.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Because the biggest problem, in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Again I'm not a mental health expert, but in most
experts opinion, is the lack of resources. It is so
hard to get professional help, even people who have the means,
there's not availability.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Yeah, there's not enough room. Yeah, it's a huge problem.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
And so when it gets too much, right, like when
you're in that space like you were talking about before,
to wrap this all back around, you've been there. You've
found yourself in a hospital in a situation where you're like,
my feet can't hit the grind. Again, it's not always
that bad, right, A bad day doesn't always look like that,
But when you can feel yourself slipping, what are some
of the things that you found that have worked for you,
(25:09):
or what are some resources that you turn to.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Well, I lovingly call them my lows, and I can
feel them, and I can feel when I just you know,
my highs aren't highs and my lows feel lows. I
know something should be funny, I know something should be happy.
I know the kids are doing something really cute, and
I just can't get myself into a happy headspace. That's
when I can feel I'm going into like that really
(25:34):
low place. And something that I've really recognized is helpful
to me is yoga. And I go to this specific
yoga class. It's in the dark, so I don't feel
like I'm being seen. They have candles, whatever it is,
but I like I go to yoga, and sometimes I
literally just lay there and cry. So that's one thing,
and I ask for space from the kids. I do
it at night. I also do I like that you
(25:57):
like talked about affirmations and how you talk to yourself
in the mirror. I like to have a whole conversation
with myself in the mirror. And sometimes it's, you know,
tears streaming down my face. It's a really hard conversation
and it's brutal. Or it's a conversation that I want
to have with you, or a conversation that I want
to have with somebody else, and I don't feel the
courage to tell the other person yet. And I just
(26:19):
sit in front of our mirror in our bedroom. I
sit there and like, I just weep, and I let
myself be sad, and I let myself feel the whole thing,
and I let myself talk through it. And so those
are two really good tools. Like getting my body moving
in general helps me feel a little bit better. So
like going for a walk outside sometimes works. But I
really felt at a very young age if I wasn't
(26:42):
comfortable to communicate to somebody else just saying it out
loud in the universe, gave me some kind of peace,
and I recognized in the moment that I felt the
weakest right in a moment that I finally was like,
I'm going to take my own life. I cannot do
this anymore. I had no connection to anybody around me
(27:03):
by design. I cut everybody out, and I cut myself out.
I stopped talking to myself, I stopped supporting myself, I
stop loving myself completely. And so when I feel myself
starting to go to that low place, it really starts
with the what I can do to connect with me quickly.
And I love talking to myself. And I think people think, oh,
that's a crazy person. But truly talking to yourself and
(27:26):
hearing yourself and hearing your own pain and working through
conflict all alone, even if no one hears you. It's
been said in the world, it goes out into the
universe and it does something. It makes me feel better
in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Do you find that it's hard when you're in that
space and you're already feeling low. Do you find that
it's hard to ask for space and ask for support
from the people around you, or have you learned through
your process that that's a huge piece of self care.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
I've learned now at thirty three, which I wish I
knew at sixteen, that I can't ask for help. I'm
a hyperindependent. So I think the other way that you
know that I'm going in my lows and like this
is also when you have your other person is I'll
be like, I'll take care of the dog, I'll take
care of the kids, I'll cook the dinner, I'll do this,
I'll do the whatever it is, and I take a
thousand things on my plate. Inevitably I'll fail at one
(28:14):
of them and that will be the final straw for me,
and then I will completely crumble. I'll completely faull to bits,
and I will have done nothing for myself and I'll
be completely in my lows. Now it's almost thirty three,
I can look at myself in the mirror and say,
you don't need to do it all. You aren't alone,
and it isn't all your fault or all your success.
(28:35):
Like I think, yes, now I've learned that skill. I
don't like that skill. I know, you know that's my
worst quality. Is I love that hyper independence about myself,
but it's not healthy. I'm happy that I'm unlearning it.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
I think an important part of what you said, and
I think it was even just subconsciously you said, as
a thirty three year old adult, you learned. And so
that for me and all of this is the biggest
takeaway because the biggest problem we're seeing the rate of
suicide and self harm and things like that amongst kids
going way way up anxiety because the pressure on them,
(29:10):
I mean, applying for college now, can I forget about it?
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Then you have to add the extra layer, right, is
that today's kids lived for three years stuck in their
house throughout COVID, Like today's kids also had the barrier
walls of actual walls and living completely alone in a
home with maybe just their parents who are stressed out
(29:34):
of their mind trying to teach them school, trying to
get to the next step. I mean, this is where
we see the most rapid and long lasting impact on
adolescent mental health. That's from a study that researchers at
Columbia University did. They literally looked at sixty four thousand
children from thirteen to eighteen years old. I'm going to
call them children. Adolescents is certainly a term, but these
(29:56):
are kids. They have declining mental health. It is the
longest lasting impact on adolescent mental health and substance abuse.
And I can't even explain how many layers that adds
to an already incredibly complex conversation.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Well, and this could be a whole nother not even episode,
whole podcast in itself about the COVID situation. But again,
the correlation between COVID and substance abuse is off the charts.
I mean, it's people were stuck in their houses doing
the same thing over and over. Most people weren't getting outside.
You stopped learning how to interact with new people, and
it just became everything on a screen, everything by yourself,
(30:33):
the same thing over and over, Like human interaction became
uncomfortable for a lot of people. And then you just
one day we wake up and it's like, okay, everyone
go back out into the world together. Everyone figure it out.
And there is so much there that has to be unpacked.
And again, we don't have the resources to help all
of these people.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
I can't imagine going through puberty in that time, right.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
Yeah, it's next level, I think, just over and over.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Like, the biggest point for me is that we have
to find a way not to convince, because convincing is
different from getting someone to believe. I think like you
can convince someone of something, sure, but we need to
get kids like at an early young age, kids kids
like Wayland's age, to firmly believe that it's going to
be okay.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
There is nothing in life, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I mean, just no matter what, it's going to be
okay because at the end of the day, the sun
is gonna set. You're gonna wake up and take a
breath tomorrow, even if it's messy and it's ugly and
it's embarrassing, like you can get through anything. You don't
need to make a permanent decision over a temporary problem
when there are ways through it no matter what it is.
(31:40):
Life is hard, it gets messy, and there are days
where you just sit on the floor and cry. It
happened to me for months on end this summer when
training was hard and there's a lot bigger problems in
the world than that it's gonna be okay. And I
wish that I knew that twenty years ago, because I
think that thirteen year old me would have handled things
(32:01):
a lot differently.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
I love how much you said that. That is something
that I wish I could call myself and say, you know,
young me sitting there without any kind of understanding of
what the future looks like. It's just to continue to
put one foot in front of the other. Mental health
truly is healthcare, like you need real mental and medical care,
and that's so important to kind of destigmatize the weakness
(32:23):
is it's not weakness, it's sickness, and sickness can be
cured and can be healed, and there's pathways, whether it's
calling somebody, whether it's having a doctor, whether it's taking medication,
which I've done on and off. It's all a normal
process of getting well. And wellness is so important.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
And I just want to double down on what you said.
Mental illness is a disease, and so a huge step
in ending the stigma around mental health is recognizing that
these are legitimate DSM five illnesses that people struggle with
on a daily basis, and the sooner that we can
recognize that as a society, the sooner we can implement
(33:00):
change in that society to help these people.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Absolutely, Babe, I love and can't underscore that more. Well,
thank you so much for listening today. Obviously, this is
a topic that is near and dear to both of
our hearts. We could go on for hours and hours
and hours. Thank you for listening, thank you for being
vulnerable with us. We'll be back next week with another
important family topic. These Packspuck is a production of iHeart
(33:28):
Women's Sports in Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted
by Us Madison and Anya Packer. Emily Maronov is our
senior producer and story editor. This episode was mixed and
mastered by Josh Fisher, and Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett,
Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry
Just the heads up for our listeners today that our
episode touches on topics like suicidal ideation, depression, and other
sensitive mental health content which may be triggering for some people.
If you are experiencing any of these feelings or know
someone that is, please know that it is okay to
share these feelings. We urge you to call or text
nine to eight eight, a confidential suicide and crisis hotline
(00:21):
available twenty four to seven.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer. I'm a recently retired pro
hockey vet. I was a founding member of the National
Women's Hockey League, a Pillar in the PHF, and an
inaugural member of the PWHL Sirens.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
And I'm Anya Packer, also a former pro hockey player
and now a full Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Stan Banya and I met through hockey and now we're
married and moms, so two awesome toddlers, ages two and four.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
And this is these Packspot where we talk about everything
for professional women's athletes, to sports, to raising children and
all the messiness in between. Hello everybody, welcome back. You
have your favorite duo here. Today's a pretty unique episode, Babe.
We don't have anyone with us Today solo episode, A
solo episode with the two some you love the most. Today,
(01:12):
we're going to talk about all the things, but we're
going to spend a lot of time on mental health. Mattie.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I'm excited for this conversation. It's something that you and
I talk a lot about in our house. We talk
a lot about it with the kids.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I think this is probably our most vulnerable topic, don't
you think, Babe.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, And I want to make clear we are not
mental health experts. However, we are both really passionate about
providing spaces for people to feel seen, feel heard, share
our story, relate with other people who may have similar struggles.
The world can be hard, so I'm excited to talk
about it today and let listeners learn a little bit
more about us in our journeys and hopefully inspire them
(01:48):
to recognize that there are platforms out there that are
there to help.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Totally, and it doesn't mean that we aren't going to
talk about our favorite thing in the world. So, without
any further ado, get ready for our Hockey Hot Day.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Hot the hot take, Anya.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
My hot take for the day is the pressure of
perfection is crippling, particularly in sports.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Totally. I love that hot take because I genuinely believe
that we look at athletes, we look at the upper
upper estalon and compare that every day, and if we
are trying to pace the lead car, how challenging it
is for our young athletes, any athlete in general, to
feel like they have any confidence whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
And I think that pressure exists everywhere. Right whatever job
you're working, you're comparing yourself. There's pressure, You're stressed. But
I think the unique aspect to sports and maybe some
other entertainment fields is that you are subjected to scrutiny
from the public. You're performing in front of thousands, millions
of people, Like the pressure is constantly on, and when
(02:56):
you make a mistake, it's going to get picked apart.
And everyone is naturally going to compare you to so
and so. They know how much money you're making, so
you are expected to be that much better. And the
reality is it's impossible to be one one hundred percent
of the time. And I think that we put extra
pressure and expectation on athletes because it's like, oh, they're
making all this money playing a sport, but it's really
(03:18):
hard to get your body to perform how you want
it to every single day when you need it to,
Like sometimes it just can't no matter how good you are.
And in my opinion, those athletes, they put enough pressure
on themselves, but it comes from everywhere, and they don't
really have the same leeway to fail and learn and
try to succeed. In my opinion, I think a lot
of it also comes from the passion that you have
(03:39):
to be successful. I mean, I think about this when
I look at my own nine to five, my passion
stops at five PM.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I don't really care that much more. It's a job.
I cluck and I clock out. When I look at
my pro hockey days, my job was my life and
I loved it. I loved going to the rink. I
loved getting on the ice. I was crushed after a
bad game. And I think that that desire to want,
Like I want to win at work. I like being
(04:06):
number one, But when I'm not, I'm not going to
stew about it at night. If I lose a hockey
game all night, I'll think about that. So I think
that's like another element too, and there's a huge part
of it that comes from within and people don't recognize that.
Like confidence can be the coach that tells you you're great. Sure,
it can also be your teammates that lean on you
when the game is on the line. Sure, but the
(04:27):
part of you that tells you that you are good
is so hugely important, and I think we all forget that,
Like pressure is a privilege, but there's a certain privilege
to thinking that you can handle that pressure.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah, and I think the biggest difference every time you
jump a level, right from youth to high school to college,
it gets a little more competitive. There's that edge for
those spots. Everyone's trying to get them. And as much
physical preparation as you do, and the time you spend
on the ice in the gym, if it's not hockey,
it's basketball, whatever court field, you have to spend the
same amount of energy an effort on your mental health
(05:02):
using sports psite, getting proper sleep, proper recovery, eating the
right way because we look at it, especially as athletes,
but I think everybody, like when you break your arm,
you put a cast on it and you expect it
to get better.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
There's a timeline.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
But when you're trying to you know, hype yourself up
or have confidence going into a situation, or you can't
figure out why you can't get out of your own head.
There's training there that exists, and there's exercises that you
can do, and there are resources available to those athletes.
And that's the biggest thing as you climb levels is
that you have to have that mental preparation and you
have to have that mental training because if you don't,
(05:35):
it's almost impossible to succeed and to stay at that level.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Okay, so you're talking about the ice work and then
the mental work, but just the art of sitting down
and visualizing yourself with the jersey on in that game
crucial moment, having success at the basket, whatever it is
right that can increase your success at that thing. Like,
I have to let that sink in because the reality
is so frequently tell themselves that they cannot do things.
(06:02):
I could never do that, I could never be like her,
I could never skate like that person, and then you've
told yourself that you can't do it. And I think
in our sport, because we're on that emerging train, it's
not like we've had sports like our whole career, Maddie,
I think like you know best than most, but across
a ten year career. When were you introduced to a
sports psych in pro women's hockey?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, I mean when I was at Wisconsin, we didn't
have full time on staff a sports psych. We had
one available to us if we needed it, But that's
also uncomfortable, right to have to go to your trainer,
to your coach to explain who you need to talk to,
why you need to talk to them. There were so
many barriers in place. And that's not a knock on Wisconsin.
I was there from twenty ten to twenty fourteen. It
(06:43):
was just a different time. We've come a long way
in ten fifteen years in our conversation around mental health
and the recognition that athletes need those resources. But then
as I went into the pros, there was nothing that
existed in the beginning. It wasn't until my time with
the Riveters under you, Frankly, when you were the GM
when we took a real look at what was going
on and we worked with Baker Street and we had
(07:04):
a full psych team available to us, a facility that
we could go to if we wanted to to learn
different training exercises and things for our brains. But it
wasn't until we had that resource and then I think
doctor Joe, who is the head of Baker Street, the
gentleman that we dealt with, he said that our team,
like ninety eight percent of our athletes use their resources,
and he said that the women's teams that they work
(07:26):
with use those resources so much more frequently than the men,
which I thought was interesting. But you could see a
real difference in the athletes and their confidence and their
ability to manage stress and things like that when we
had those resources compared to when we didn't.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Completely. I mean that took off on a whole different
level too, because we then scaled it across the league
and said this works in New York, it needs to
work elsewhere. Change comes from somebody standing up front and
as a former athlete myself and then I ran the
players Association. Every time I looked at the gap and
I said, sports SYC would really be important here. These
women are dealing with so much and.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
The athletes didn't have it were upset.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
That's why it rolled out to the whole league because
people looked at that and they were like, wait, why
do they get that right? And you see that a
lot when like teams have nicer clubhouses or more you know,
they get to fly differently, whatever, But when you're talking
about a resource like that, like you wouldn't think that
it would be so bothersome. And it was like an
immediate red flag from players on other teams that were like, Hey,
we need that. We should all have that. That shouldn't
be an add on or a benefit for New York.
(08:26):
That should be something that everyone has access to. And
all the players agreed. I mean the players in New
York were like, yeah, it makes a real difference. They
should all have it.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Because to your original point, that pressure creates that crippling
sport problem. But knowing where you're at and knowing you
can communicate that is so hugely important so that you
can also self define your limit, like how much pressure
is too much pressure for you as an athlete when
you need to start to reach out for that resource,
or can you preemptively manage how do you balance the pressure?
(08:53):
So all those questions kind of come up within that conversation.
But truthfully, at the end of the day, it's the
importance of taking your mental health and making it a
priority as an athlete, as a mother, as a person
in any way, shape or form. If your mental health
isn't at the utmost of the important first part of
the conversation, it's not worth having any of it because
(09:14):
nobody can do anything without the self reflection and the
love to take care of your mind over everything else.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
And it's why we have put so much emphasis with
the kids, particularly with Whalen, and now that Harlan's a
little bit older and we'll start to understand more a
little bit. After the season started last year, it became
a really big thing for me and for you to
teach Whalen that he's not allowed to say can't. Whalen
is not allowed to say I can't anything, and when
he says it, we correct him, right, We say, that
(09:42):
might be hard, that might seem challenging, and you may
not be able to do it right now, but you
can do anything. And that's so important because my whole
life playing boys hockey, right, you two people tell you
that you can't and you won't, and you work in
spite of that to show them and prove them wrong.
But like for me as a kid, not having any tools,
just wanting to ppw and prove people wrong and show
(10:05):
the boys and like, you know, gotcha, I guess them
rolling into the pros, then having a coach who similarly
doubted me, and me just thinking oh, I'm going to
show in, but not having any like resources or tools
to really coach myself in that moment when you're told
that you're not good enough or that you don't belong
day after day after.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Day, you believe it.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Yeah, you have no way of like affirming to yourself.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
I didn't have those tools in my toolbox to stand
in front of a mirror and say yes, you can.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Well, it feels clunky to do that.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Yeah, and it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
You were the one that were like, I want you
to go in the bathroom and do these things and
say this in front of a mirror and say it
out loud.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Don't write it down. You have to say it look
yourself in the face. And it works. And it's hard
for sure.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I mean there are still days where it creeps back
in right because it's been instilled in my brain. But
it's why it's so important now with our kids to
teach them no, forget about that. People are going to
tell you a million things on your journey to wherever
you're going. You can do anything if the you inside
of you believes that you can, and that voice has
to be louder than any and it's so important that
(11:08):
people start practicing that as quickly and as soon as
they can, because I think that to your point, you
have just so much confidence. You've probably been doing those
exercises and been leaning on those tools. You have been
for longer than me, you know what I mean. And
it's just I wish sometimes that I could just have
that confidence. Just they don't mean that, or I'm going
to show them, like, it's hard when you start to
(11:29):
doubt yourself and you don't have the ability to bring
yourself back.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
I totally agree, and I think that's why we do
our check in. That's why we believe, like because I
think there's always something that you can reach for. There's
always a tool that you can reach for. So in
the interest of it, I want to know where you're at.
I kind of want to get a check in. I
want to know how things have been progressing, especially since
you're introducing some new skills to your tool set, and
then kind of dive into some of those tools, some
of the things that we're using. If we're not at
(11:54):
that one hundred.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Percent, Yeah, for sure, I think today I'm probably a
sixty five.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
Okay, So I was.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Feeling really crummy I think when I came home, But
then talking to you, doing some affirmations, looking at the
whole picture brought me up a little bit good.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
I mean, I feel like sixty five is a solid number.
I think I'm rocking out about n eighty. I feel solid.
We had a great day yesterday. The kids were very
well behaved, so like that's always kicks my morning off. Well,
took everyone to school, everyone was happy, got some errands done,
got some work done. Talking to you now, feel like
we've got no problems. I'm a solid eighty.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
We got date night tonight.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
I laugh, Yeah, I got date night tonight. Gonna wash
my hair maybe, like it'll be pretty amazing, I'll feel
pretty spectacular. Maybe at ninety five after that happens. And
then like kind of like thinking about that and where
I'm at right now at eighty percent, and I think,
you know, most of the time, if nothing bad has happened,
I hum around of fifty. I can't lie. I deal
(12:58):
with depression, and a humongous element for that for me
is to be able to look at you and just
get a hug. I always say I don't think I
could date anyone that was smaller than me because I
like the feeling of being like little and like needing
a hug or like needing that thing. So when you're
upset and when you come home and when you're having
like a tough day, you know, I try to be
(13:20):
this bigger than myself person to give you that like love,
if it's a hug or if it's like look at me,
like you can do it, Like you can do it
whatever you want, Like I do the same thing that
I watch you do to our kids, and I think
that makes me feel good. I think it makes me
feel good to help you and to know that you
might have been really self doubting or really in a
bad headspace and then brought yourself out of it, because
(13:40):
I know how much you can help me with that
as well. So I think, like I look at where
I'm at a huge lever to what has probably made
me feel so great today is knowing that you had
a great morning, you maybe had a tough afternoon, and
not you're feeling a lot better, And so that's important
to me. I love you.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Hear might pick me up, Peanut, butter Cup, pick me up?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Peanututter cup, I would happily be that. So, Maddie, we're back.
We just talked a whole bunch about sports and pressure
and mental health as it applies to sports and performance.
But now let's dial it back a little bit. I
(14:24):
really want to dive into what we care about, why
we are so passionate about it, and really why we've
centered our story and platform around momming of course, but
mental health in that landscape and what it looks like
and why we're so passionate about it.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
So, I think for me, it all started when I
was seventeen. I had a teammate at the time, Kelly Schuyer,
who took her own life, and that was the first
time in my life that I can remember where I
dealt with any tragedy or trauma like to that point,
I had had a pretty great life as a kid,
and that didn't ruin my life any means, But that
(15:01):
was a pretty horrible thing to have to go through
and to see someone else's family go through. And I
think for me, a thing that a lot of people
point out, yourself included, I have really high like emotional
intelligence and like a lot of empathy, and when I
see someone else going through something, even someone I don't know,
Like we can't walk by a single homeless person in
Manhattan who I don't buy a sandwich for, and that's
(15:22):
not even like a performative I make me feel so good,
Like I feel badly for that person, right, And so
watching her family go through that and not even understanding
conceptually what suicide was, what depression was. Like my family,
we didn't talk about mental health. That wasn't something that
was ever discussed in our house. I then got involved
with an organization project, SEMICOL, and started educating myself more
(15:45):
on the mental health crisis, particularly suicide and the number
of people that struggle with depression and things like that.
And the more I tried to educate myself and learn,
the bigger the problem got. Right over the years, it's
gotten worse and worse and worse, especially in the States,
and then you fast forward to where we're at now.
(16:07):
I've lost countless people to suicide, tons of close friends,
unfortunately to accidental drug overdose.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
And it's all connected. It's all related.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And in looking what was happening around me, it encouraged
me to look what was happening within me and understand
myself better and learning that I needed to do work
on myself and have resources for myself because I have
really bad anxiety. I just always thought that I was
like a nervous person or like shy, and it's not
that at all. I have anxiety, and that's something that
(16:38):
I didn't even know I had because I didn't know
how to talk about it and I didn't have the
resources available to me at the times to deal with it.
And now that I do, it's like lifting such a
huge weight in knowing that I can talk about what
I'm going through and knowing that I have tools and
people there to help me when I need it. And
so I think for me, like the passion comes from
(16:58):
seeing the really negative side of it, experiencing some of
it myself, and wanting to help make better a problem
that is just crippling our country. I mean, suicide and
overdose are in the top ten of leading causes of
death in our country right now for people under fifty.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
That's crazy when you think about it now.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Conversely, when I was growing up, you know, we talked
about mental health a lot, my brother and myself. We
both have challenges with depression, with suicidal ideation. We both
were hospitalized after attempts on our own lives. So you know,
not that that makes it normal in any way, shape
or form, but in my house, it was something that
plagued us early, often and all the time. That's really hard.
(17:37):
And so when you grow up and you live in
this world where it looks like that, and you've touched that,
and you've seen that, and I've talked about it since
the day I even got a remote platform. You know,
the second I started playing Division one hockey, I thought,
I'm going to tell everybody that this happened, because four
years ago I didn't even know that I wanted to
be here, let alone be playing for Boston University, let
(17:58):
alone be playing professional. Howkey, there are children that otherwise
would think that it was only them, that they were
the only person that felt that way. And so that
is why I have always pushed everybody I know and love,
and even you and myself out of our comfort zone
to talk about those things, because there's going to be
(18:18):
a little kid that looks up to you and says,
I have anxiety, I have depression, I have these things.
I'm not alone. My favorite hockey player goes through the
same thing, and I always felt really passionate, like if I,
at fifteen years old, feeling the most alone I've ever
felt in my entire life, knew that my aspirational goal
(18:39):
being a professional hockey player, that my favorite hockey player
said that that's normal and okay, and I can get
through it. I can guarantee you I would have had
a different couple months when I was in high school.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Well yeah, And I think that normalizing the conversation around
mental health not the behavior, because you obviously don't ever
want someone to hurt themselves. You don't want anyone to
be thinking like that. You don't want people to feel
the press like it's sad, and you want people to
feel like they have the ability to talk about it,
because the only thing, in my opinion, worse than suffering
(19:09):
in that way is feeling like.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
You're going through it completely alone.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yes, And because I think that we associate mental health with,
you know, all these stigmas that exist out there, Oh,
if they're doing drugs, they must be homeless in this
and that there's a lot that goes into someone's story,
and even if they are, what does it matter.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
It's a human being.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
And I think the introduction of social media has made
it one hundred thousand times worse because now right the
snap of a finger, you have access to everyone.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
You're comparing yourself to everyone.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
No one puts a bad day on Instagram, right, Like
the time that you leave the gas pump in your
coffee's on the top of the car and you pull
away and the whole thing implodes.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Like you don't snap a picture of that and put
it on Instagram.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
The three times in one month that you drove away
with your wallet on your roof of your car and
lost it three separate times in one month.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Facts, never put that on my story.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
But like it's always you know, the family photo and this,
and that's great.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
You want to share the happy parts of your life.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
But it's important that we all recognize as humanity that
everyone has a hard day. Everyone can relate to having
a hard day. When you see someone in the grocery
store who's just like crimugeny, it's like, rather than being like,
oh that person a jerk, how about oh, yeah, I
can relate they probably had a bad day.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah, they're probably kicking it at a solid twenty and
they have to go grocery shopping.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, they got to go to the grocery store. It's
out of what they want. Like, it's just bringing more
empathy back into all of us. The more technology is
infused into our lives, in my opinion, the harder it gets,
and we have lost a little bit of that like
ability to understand, and we need to have more conversation
and be more comfortable talking with one another, not just
(20:47):
about the great things, because it's all a hugely important
part of the bigger picture.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
And without the struggle, there.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Is no success, Like you don't just wake up and
find yourself on the top of the mountain.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
I think the other thing is like, when we are depressed,
we do this so it can show somebody tangibly that
there is a way out. I like so much that
I can say, here are some things that I do.
Here are some ways that I heal. Here are some
exercises that I try, or here's a resource group I loved,
here's a hotline that I called. You know, different things
(21:34):
that can save a life. And I think when I
first started talking about with mental health, I would just
be like, this is my story. There it is right,
and now I've decided like this is my story. Here
are resources that we need. You know, you went to
a Jed Foundation event and I remember you left and
you were just like, the things that they are doing
in high schools today is saving lives, and we don't
(21:55):
recognize how much mental health is stealing lives. And so
I think that there's a way to move forward now
in my life. I know there are tools that I
have that I can use, and I think that is
the most important conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
I love everything that you just said, but to your
point about the JET Foundation, after that event, I felt
for the first time, like actually so hopeful about the
direction that we're moving from a resource standpoint. I remember
when Kyle Pavone, who was a good childhood friend of mine.
He was the singer for the band became as Romans.
He died of an accidental drug overdose in the summer
(22:33):
of twenty eighteen.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
He passed away suddenly.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
And I remember after that happened, there had been a
few other kids that had gone to Marian, which was
my high school brother Rice, the school that my brothers
went to a few of the other surrounding private schools
who had committed suicide or accidentally overdosed, and it opened
my eyes to this huge wide problem that we had.
And I went to my school and the person that
I spoke with is no longer at the school, but
(22:57):
I was playing pro hockey at the time. I was like,
I want to come back and give my time for
free to your students, to your student athletes. I want
to talk to kids about the pressures of what's going
on in the world right now, talk to them about
real life, show them that you can go through all
those things. I've gone through a lot of them too,
and this is what it can look like on the
other side. And they're like, no, no way, we're not
(23:18):
touching that with a ten foot poll. They wouldn't do
it because they didn't know on how to do it,
I think, but also it's such a sensitive topic, like
no one wants to be liable or responsible, right, So
they were like, we can't do that, and then unfortunately
the problem got worse and worse.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
People don't also want to admit the problem. It's a
weakness thing, right, People assume weakness in mental health challenges,
and that's to your point, the stigma, right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
And it's a huge problem.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Unfortunately, a lot of people take the approach of well,
it's not really my problem, and you know, I can
only focus on so many things. And then you know,
it's in your neighborhood, and then it's in your backyard,
and then it's at your front doorstep, and then it's
in your living room and you care. Like with me,
that's the progression of what happened. And I started getting involved.
But it wasn't until you know, a really good friend
(24:06):
of mine passed away suddenly that I was like, enough,
there has to be something more that we can do.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
And that's when I got involved with Jed.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
You know, every season, I pledge money to different organizations
that are doing work in the LGBTQ plus community to
help kids with their mental health. It's a huge problem,
huge and we need people to care about it. And
people are slowly caring more and more about it. But
you just don't want to wait until it's a personal, real,
big problem to be like, Okay, yeah, there's something that
we can do.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
Because the biggest problem, in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Again I'm not a mental health expert, but in most
experts opinion, is the lack of resources. It is so
hard to get professional help, even people who have the means,
there's not availability.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Yeah, there's not enough room. Yeah, it's a huge problem.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
And so when it gets too much, right, like when
you're in that space like you were talking about before,
to wrap this all back around, you've been there. You've
found yourself in a hospital in a situation where you're like,
my feet can't hit the grind. Again, it's not always
that bad, right, A bad day doesn't always look like that,
But when you can feel yourself slipping, what are some
of the things that you found that have worked for you,
(25:09):
or what are some resources that you turn to.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Well, I lovingly call them my lows, and I can
feel them, and I can feel when I just you know,
my highs aren't highs and my lows feel lows. I
know something should be funny, I know something should be happy.
I know the kids are doing something really cute, and
I just can't get myself into a happy headspace. That's
when I can feel I'm going into like that really
(25:34):
low place. And something that I've really recognized is helpful
to me is yoga. And I go to this specific
yoga class. It's in the dark, so I don't feel
like I'm being seen. They have candles, whatever it is,
but I like I go to yoga, and sometimes I
literally just lay there and cry. So that's one thing,
and I ask for space from the kids. I do
it at night. I also do I like that you
(25:57):
like talked about affirmations and how you talk to yourself
in the mirror. I like to have a whole conversation
with myself in the mirror. And sometimes it's, you know,
tears streaming down my face. It's a really hard conversation
and it's brutal. Or it's a conversation that I want
to have with you, or a conversation that I want
to have with somebody else, and I don't feel the
courage to tell the other person yet. And I just
(26:19):
sit in front of our mirror in our bedroom. I
sit there and like, I just weep, and I let
myself be sad, and I let myself feel the whole thing,
and I let myself talk through it. And so those
are two really good tools. Like getting my body moving
in general helps me feel a little bit better. So
like going for a walk outside sometimes works. But I
really felt at a very young age if I wasn't
(26:42):
comfortable to communicate to somebody else just saying it out
loud in the universe, gave me some kind of peace,
and I recognized in the moment that I felt the
weakest right in a moment that I finally was like,
I'm going to take my own life. I cannot do
this anymore. I had no connection to anybody around me
(27:03):
by design. I cut everybody out, and I cut myself out.
I stopped talking to myself, I stopped supporting myself, I
stop loving myself completely. And so when I feel myself
starting to go to that low place, it really starts
with the what I can do to connect with me quickly.
And I love talking to myself. And I think people think, oh,
that's a crazy person. But truly talking to yourself and
(27:26):
hearing yourself and hearing your own pain and working through
conflict all alone, even if no one hears you. It's
been said in the world, it goes out into the
universe and it does something. It makes me feel better
in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Do you find that it's hard when you're in that
space and you're already feeling low. Do you find that
it's hard to ask for space and ask for support
from the people around you, or have you learned through
your process that that's a huge piece of self care.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
I've learned now at thirty three, which I wish I
knew at sixteen, that I can't ask for help. I'm
a hyperindependent. So I think the other way that you
know that I'm going in my lows and like this
is also when you have your other person is I'll
be like, I'll take care of the dog, I'll take
care of the kids, I'll cook the dinner, I'll do this,
I'll do the whatever it is, and I take a
thousand things on my plate. Inevitably I'll fail at one
(28:14):
of them and that will be the final straw for me,
and then I will completely crumble. I'll completely faull to bits,
and I will have done nothing for myself and I'll
be completely in my lows. Now it's almost thirty three,
I can look at myself in the mirror and say,
you don't need to do it all. You aren't alone,
and it isn't all your fault or all your success.
(28:35):
Like I think, yes, now I've learned that skill. I
don't like that skill. I know, you know that's my
worst quality. Is I love that hyper independence about myself,
but it's not healthy. I'm happy that I'm unlearning it.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
I think an important part of what you said, and
I think it was even just subconsciously you said, as
a thirty three year old adult, you learned. And so
that for me and all of this is the biggest
takeaway because the biggest problem we're seeing the rate of
suicide and self harm and things like that amongst kids
going way way up anxiety because the pressure on them,
(29:10):
I mean, applying for college now, can I forget about it?
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Then you have to add the extra layer, right, is
that today's kids lived for three years stuck in their
house throughout COVID, Like today's kids also had the barrier
walls of actual walls and living completely alone in a
home with maybe just their parents who are stressed out
(29:34):
of their mind trying to teach them school, trying to
get to the next step. I mean, this is where
we see the most rapid and long lasting impact on
adolescent mental health. That's from a study that researchers at
Columbia University did. They literally looked at sixty four thousand
children from thirteen to eighteen years old. I'm going to
call them children. Adolescents is certainly a term, but these
(29:56):
are kids. They have declining mental health. It is the
longest lasting impact on adolescent mental health and substance abuse.
And I can't even explain how many layers that adds
to an already incredibly complex conversation.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Well, and this could be a whole nother not even episode,
whole podcast in itself about the COVID situation. But again,
the correlation between COVID and substance abuse is off the charts.
I mean, it's people were stuck in their houses doing
the same thing over and over. Most people weren't getting outside.
You stopped learning how to interact with new people, and
it just became everything on a screen, everything by yourself,
(30:33):
the same thing over and over, Like human interaction became
uncomfortable for a lot of people. And then you just
one day we wake up and it's like, okay, everyone
go back out into the world together. Everyone figure it out.
And there is so much there that has to be unpacked.
And again, we don't have the resources to help all
of these people.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
I can't imagine going through puberty in that time, right.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
Yeah, it's next level, I think, just over and over.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Like, the biggest point for me is that we have
to find a way not to convince, because convincing is
different from getting someone to believe. I think like you
can convince someone of something, sure, but we need to
get kids like at an early young age, kids kids
like Wayland's age, to firmly believe that it's going to
be okay.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
There is nothing in life, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I mean, just no matter what, it's going to be
okay because at the end of the day, the sun
is gonna set. You're gonna wake up and take a
breath tomorrow, even if it's messy and it's ugly and
it's embarrassing, like you can get through anything. You don't
need to make a permanent decision over a temporary problem
when there are ways through it no matter what it is.
(31:40):
Life is hard, it gets messy, and there are days
where you just sit on the floor and cry. It
happened to me for months on end this summer when
training was hard and there's a lot bigger problems in
the world than that it's gonna be okay. And I
wish that I knew that twenty years ago, because I
think that thirteen year old me would have handled things
(32:01):
a lot differently.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
I love how much you said that. That is something
that I wish I could call myself and say, you know,
young me sitting there without any kind of understanding of
what the future looks like. It's just to continue to
put one foot in front of the other. Mental health
truly is healthcare, like you need real mental and medical care,
and that's so important to kind of destigmatize the weakness
(32:23):
is it's not weakness, it's sickness, and sickness can be
cured and can be healed, and there's pathways, whether it's
calling somebody, whether it's having a doctor, whether it's taking medication,
which I've done on and off. It's all a normal
process of getting well. And wellness is so important.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
And I just want to double down on what you said.
Mental illness is a disease, and so a huge step
in ending the stigma around mental health is recognizing that
these are legitimate DSM five illnesses that people struggle with
on a daily basis, and the sooner that we can
recognize that as a society, the sooner we can implement
(33:00):
change in that society to help these people.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Absolutely, Babe, I love and can't underscore that more. Well,
thank you so much for listening today. Obviously, this is
a topic that is near and dear to both of
our hearts. We could go on for hours and hours
and hours. Thank you for listening, thank you for being
vulnerable with us. We'll be back next week with another
important family topic. These Packspuck is a production of iHeart
(33:28):
Women's Sports in Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted
by Us Madison and Anya Packer. Emily Maronov is our
senior producer and story editor. This episode was mixed and
mastered by Josh Fisher, and Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett,
Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry
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