July 8, 2025 • 42 mins
This week, the Packers talk to someone who has beaten the odds at every turn. Eva Erickson is a lifelong hockey player who holds her own on men’s teams, an engineer who is getting her PhD at Brown University, and most recently the runner-up on season 48 of Survivor. She got there by being authentic in a game usually known for lying and deceit, but that’s not the only way she's defied expectations. As a baby, doctors told Eva’s parents that she would never be able to live a “normal” life because she had Autism. Eva tells the Packers how a supportive family, hockey, and sheer determination helped her prove those doctors wrong and why she chose to be open about her neurodivergence on national TV.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, everyone, Welcome to these packs puck. I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I are both former
pro hockey players. We met through hockey and fell in love,
and now we're married with two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
These days, we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives, between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids and.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
All the messiness in between.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
So buckle the puck up because there is a lot
to talk about. Hey, Anya, Hey back, how we doing.
We're all right, we're tired kids. I don't think anyone
slept last night, nobody.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I'm concerned for the check in bit because even through
newborn phase, I think that last night might have been
the roughest.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Oh, it was brutal.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
You slept a bit, though, you slept through a bit
of bit.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Well, okay, let's get into the hockey hot take. Before
you start throwing daggers over there, just chill out a.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Little hockey hot take.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So we were about a week after the Peter Bchil Draft.
I'm going to say that my hockey hot teak is
I am quite perplexed as to what we're putting on
the ice. And all the different intricacies of what happened
in last weeks draft.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
The hockey hot take is, what the fuck is happening
in women's hockey?
Speaker 4 (01:15):
What's going on?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So we've talked about it a little bit, but you
had two seasons of professional women's hockey for the quote
unquote first time with this new league, and so you
eliminated what like at least fifty percent. I think it's
more like sixty percent, but somewhere in there of the
veteran player pool through just everything that happened, I.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Was gonna say the thing is typically and then maybe
not it's one hundred percent, but typically players that get
drafted are then put on those rosters like they are
rewarding young talent in this league, which to grow and
grow quickly they do need to do. But last year
they did it at like a seven roster spot swing
per franchise.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
And some with multi year deals. Correct, So you cannot
now get up.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So the lesson was that you started the league with
a myriad of players, right, and call it three hundred
fighting for six teams worth of spots.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Then that's us, most of which on one year deals.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Correct, But then that's us is out into six teams,
and then they drafted about seven slots per team, some more,
some less because of trading, but basically all those spots
were guaranteed to those rookies. So the league got another
influx of fifty players that were very very young, which
pushed out older players. And then you know, so in
ball rolls. Then year three we expand to two more
(02:37):
teams and take an expansion draft and then have an
even larger rookie draft and also have to pull players
from practice player spots, reserve spots, players that were cut
last year and now are getting signed to roster spots.
So it's kind of like a weird ebb and flow, right, Like,
we tightened the player pool, then expanded it a ton
(02:58):
with young talent, which is not bad but like part
of the growing pains. And you know, they're playing NCAA sports,
which is different than pro sports. But again we expand
the player pool, then we expand it again, right, and
like we've not really gotten over this levening that we
took and like really trimming down the league and getting
rid of two times a veteran player pool because we
(03:22):
did that when the league started, right, we lost a
bunch of players that played CBHL, PHF SDHL, like we bought,
lost a bunch of players to these six teams. Then
we had the draft and we lost a bunch of
players to these rookies. Then we had an expansion where
we added a bunch of player spots, and now we're
just seeing like kind of chaos.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
In my opinion, I.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Think that if we took the opportunity to look at
the CHAKA projected draft list right like, based on the
stats and where players ranked up, and then you saw
how players got drafted year one, the math doesn't math,
so you automatically denigrate the value of players because you're
(04:06):
also introducing, respectfully a multitude of people into this league
who maybe don't have a breath of knowledge in women's hockey.
Then year one rolls by, year two comes up, it's
mostly the same group of players. You introduce a new
draft class. The draft class is strong. But now year
(04:28):
three and it's very different because we have eliminated so
many veterans who like, you can't replicate and you cannot
replace veteran experience full stop, no, and the speed, the
understanding all of it.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Right So right now, for example, you have new York
and New York made some like very choice moves in
my opinion, in this entire thing. But they protected Elas Shelton.
Then they traded Elas Shelton for a first round draft
pick and a second round draft pick? Was it a
first and a third? They basically trade the best d
in the entire league for a couple of picks. So right,
(05:05):
that's another veteran gone.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
And then they traded their best player or second best player,
like totally phenomenal, another CAT affiliate as effective without carp Carpenter,
I don't think so. I think that Ella was the
best player all year.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So Alex Carpenter was lost in the expansion draft. And
then you trade away Ella Shelton in the first round
to get Casey O'Brien. Again, I get wanting Casey O'Brien,
but I don't get losing Ella for it.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
She's small though again she's small.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
With you, but I think she's going to be great.
But I think that's what that's that's like, the risk
in the reward for me is not there. And then
you trade off Abby Rock and you've already lost Jesse Eldridge,
You've already lost all these other players. And all these
different pieces so to create the puzzle. Now, if you're
looking at the roster of New York, you now have
(05:55):
no carp no Rock, no Shelton, no Eldridge, no Son.
I mean, you've got none of your veterans.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
I don't want to dive too deep into New York
because I have some inside doledge and I think that
is unfair. But the logic makes no sense, right, Like
the logic makes you want to rebuild, sure, But but
you have to appreciate and recognize it's not college hockey,
it's pro hockey. You're getting paid to do what you're doing.
(06:26):
It's kill or be killed. And so so look at
once what Montreal is doing. And like I think that
the O'Neill for Rock trade is interesting though that was
an interesting one. I think that Rock needs a change
of scenery for sure. And I think she's a great player,
a little bit misunderstood, maybe needs a little like a
strong a little stronger leadership and guidance. But it just
(06:50):
you have to value experience. Look at look at the NHL. Well,
I mean Corey Perry's forty, yeah, still playing and he's
gonna play again, and he in how many Stanley Cup
finals in a row, Like you cannot replace a backbone,
a leader, someone who's been there, done that, Like we
(07:10):
just don't value that for some reason, and it's insane.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Well, I also thought it was interesting if you had
two picks in the first round if I'm New York,
because why not Why carven In goes first round seventh
pick to Vancouver when you need veterans. You've got a
brand new, shiny object veteran who could bring you Olympic experience,
winning experience, SDHL experience, captain style leadership. Like you have
(07:39):
carven In on the board and we just let her
go to Vancouver.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Sure, and that's where again, what are we doing? No disparagement,
but maybe there's a little bit of like insider trading
going on there. She played for Adolski at Nodak. She
has not come to North America but Madison. But if
you're the bund just saying maybe maybe maybe she made
(08:04):
it abundantly clear that like piss off, I'll go there,
but I'm going nowhere else.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
But you know what I mean, Like, look what and
they picked her right away?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Well, yes, that's a strategy, I guess so.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
But my point is if I'm maybe else, but no
one else.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
But but Kessel was an eighth throne.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I don't care if I'm Boston and I've lost night,
if I'm New York and I know I'm trading Ella,
if I'm if I'm any of these two.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
But you're gonna waste a first round pick on a
throw you have to.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
New York has too.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, but their first pick as controversial as it is
for off ice reasons. Great hockey player. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Again, I'm not taking it away, but I'm saying, if
I have no.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Veteran needs some media training, If I've.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Got no veterans, I'm going carving in. That's what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I don't disagree. Then, I thought it was interesting that
you're not gonna you can waste an eighth round. You
can't waste a first round.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Well, all that to say each team there was six round.
New York traded to get three more picks. So New
York is going to be comprised of the seven rookies
from last year that were signed, and the nine rookies
from this year, and some one or two year veterans.
(09:16):
If you're looking at the draft, and we obviously take
the Lens from New York. I think it's just because
that your former team, and like we just see it.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Most there, love it, love it, wanted to succeed. They're
gonna get one annihilated this year.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
They're gonna get crunched because everyone's gonna get crunched by
by and I hope I'm by the way everyone's getting.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Crunched by Seattle and Vancouver.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, that's a period, full stop, don't care what you
tell me, and then let me take it on the office,
let me go off ice. Paige Kate Becker's drafted first
round five hundred thousand likes, Attention Calti drafted first round,
first round first pick by New York a thousand likes.
We also just aren't growing the market share, Like this
(09:59):
draft could have been a moment in time. There was
salacious stuff that happened. There was drama, There was like
great fits, like everything about it said it was gonna
be good, and we just can't get off the blocks
and get out of our own way. The drama was there.
Sometimes we have no drama.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
We had it.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, I'll close with this. In my opinion, I did
like a little like pre draft whatever bs on some paper.
I had Murphy going number one. Yeah, but Murphy didn't
enter the draft. Why Harvey wasn't in the draft? Why
because the conversation around compensation is still wildly inaccurate and
(10:40):
there's more value in continuing to further your career. Also,
it's an Olympic year in the NCAA. So I live
and die and breathe hockey. I love women's hockey. I
want this league to succeed, but we gotta be better.
And the criticism goes both ways, right, we were so
(11:02):
constantly critical of the end up and the PHF and
all this shit. Come on, guys, if we want what's
best and we want to be better, then we got
to call it out. Players deserve more power and they
deserve a stronger PA. I fully I'll close with that.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I fully agree we should talk about things like that
more often, because that's where we both are really quite obsessed.
But before we get too far into a whole other topic,
and before you start roasting me for sleeping last night,
why don't we do a little check in. Why don't
you tell me one to one hundred, where are you at?
(11:40):
How much can you contribute today? What's going on? What's
inside the brain.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I'm I'm like a thirty two.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
How much of it is no sleep and how much
of it is other contributing factors.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
I'm a little low. So we've committed to being honest
with our audience. I'm a little I've been going through
some stuff lately. It's okay to feel low, weird, depressed, but.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
That's okay a little bit.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I'm excited because we're gonna go see aunt Emma shout
out Emma. Woods woo Waaling came up to me that day.
He's like, remember that auntie that used to live in
the basement, the basement troll. What's her name again, Amanda?
Which is not her name? I said, aunt Emma. He goes, yeah,
I miss her. So we're going We're going home to
(12:31):
Michigan for a little bit. Home to me, not home
to you. And so we're gonna we re routed instead
driving through PENNSYLTUCKI We're gonna drive through Niagara Falls and
see the world's biggest waterfall, which the kids are really
pumped about.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
But yeah, I've been deep diving in my therapy, getting
in the trenches on some stuff, and so I'm a
little low. I also did not sleep last night a wink.
I think I finally closed my eyes at like four fifteen.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
That's the worst I know.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
And you were you were, you were up.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
But I was on it. I was on it with
the kids. And Whalen fell out of bed, but it
like took him a minute. So he fell out of bed,
and we're switching security systems, which we just got back
up and running today, but it wasn't running yesterday.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
So I heard like.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
A slam and I'm like, was that the basement door?
And then I'm like okay, I'm like waiting, waiting, waiting,
And then we had such streaming and I'm like, oh no,
he fell out of bed. And then Harlan like talks
in her sleep, which you also do, by the way,
which I've realized now that I don't sleep as much.
(13:39):
But it's like loud and it's only like two where
it's like yes.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Go, I'm just cheering. Such good.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
We're hovering around thirty four to thirty seven. I could
be pumped. I think you need a couple extras.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I'm alright because it was actually mild temperature today so
I could in the windows, so that was kind of nice.
Speaker 5 (14:02):
I need to go get a workout in because I'm like.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
She says that because she doesn't want to turn the eciy.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Yeah, I don't want turn the AC on.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
That's I think anyone who knows anything about me can
definitely clock that to.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
Be the reason as well. But I feel good. I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I think I'm at like a sixty sixty something, so
I could I could make up.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I can whatever the delta is between you and two
trying to figure out that math. Yeah, that's what I'm in.
I'm in.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
I can be this sixty three sixty sixty seven, No
depends what your number is.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
You gave me a freaking range.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I can. I can be the opposite of your six
to sixty three.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Okay, I can be the opposite of your range because
I feel like I don't feel so bad. I slepped
more than you did. My orr ring, on the other hand,
was screaming at me like you are not rested, do
not do any workouts, please just chill and my.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
Body temperatures up.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
So maybe I'm getting sick.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
All that to say, I can pick up the slack
for you today because I uh or your period little
let down. Yeah, maybe I've got my period. Honestly, I
hope not, but maybe shout out to my period who
who comes every month like.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
A real log.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
But anyway, not about that. I am really excited about
today's show. I know we talked to all things draft.
I know we talked all things not feeling so great.
But if you want a little inspiration in your day,
you've got to listen to the next guest. Eva Erickson.
I am so excited. She is inspiring to us in
life and in hockey. You might have seen her on
the last season of Survivor. She was the runner up.
(15:30):
She also made history on Survivor being the first person
that was open about having autism. So throughout the season
there were some moments that were really emotional that even
made Jeff probescry. She's also insanely smart. Pack could not
even come close. You and I are dumb in comparison.
She's getting her PhD at Brown. She's a Minnesota girl.
(15:51):
She played hockey your whole life, and men continued to
play hockey in college, but with the men's club side
at two different universities, which we will absolutely dive into.
We're going to take a quick break, but then we'll
get into our conversation with Eva, so join us shortly.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Hi, Eva, Welcome to these PACs Puck. We are so
excited to have you.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me here. I'm
so excited.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So obviously, we talk a lot about hockey on our show,
but we're also big advocates for mental health and celebrating differences,
and so for that and many other reasons, we're really
excited to have you. And we were moved by your
story on Survivor and we thought it would be a
great opportunity to have you on the show. You have
a remarkable story and journey, and we're going to get
into all that, but first we want to start talking
(16:43):
a little hockey. I've got a bone to pick. You're
a p WHL Minnesota fan. You were at the final, Yeah,
it was exciting. Are you a fan or were you
just at that game? Like? How's that?
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Of course, I'm a cheer for my hometown team. I'm
just a big fan of the PWHL, that's all.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
She's a Minnesotan.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Yes, I'm from Minnesota, so I'm gonna cheer for them regardless.
But I just I just love overall that there is
a women's pro league now, like that's something that wasn't
there when I was a kid, So like, it's so
awesome to get to watch and like getting to be
at that final game seeing the Walter Cup handed out
and how many little girls were in the stands made
me so excited for the direction hockey's going right now.
(17:22):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
So, my gosh, they're your favorite team. Do you follow
the league in general or.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
Yeah, yeah, a little bit. I mean it's weird seeing
a lot of a lot of girls that I played
against in high school out there playing and different stuff.
I one of my my close friends here in Providence.
Her sister plays for the Boston team, the Fleet. Her
sister is Sophie Shirley. So okay, oh yeah, I watch, yeah,
see a little bit of that. So it's it's cool
to have a lot of connections and everything there.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
She's a fellow Badger, yes, yeah, I mean, and I
grew up a Gopher fans, so another kind of a
bone to pick.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, that's a big bone to pick.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I I don't have time on the show. Yeah you
got all right?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Well cool, So let's take a step back and talk
about how did you start playing hockey. How'd you get
into it? What was it like growing up? You talked
a little bit, you played with girls a little bit,
But what was that like?
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Yeah, I mean growing up in Minnesota, Like I learned
to skate. That's my earliest memory was like three years old,
learning to skate with my dad out on the lake,
like and as a kid, like getting into hockey. It
was during a time when I was struggling with a
lot of things related to my autism, and I found
this sport that where I was able to socialize with
kids my age do this activity that gave me something
to focus on, be really committed to, and kind of
(18:36):
like was able to apply the strategies I'd been learning
to deal with sensory issues as a kid applying that
to something I love. So it became something really quick
that I really fixated on in my life, and it's
become so central to who I am. So I grew
up playing boys hockey until checking switched to girls hockey.
Minnesota has amazing girls hockey. I played through high school,
went to the state tournament in Minnesota, Big Deal was amazing.
(18:58):
Played for Egan High school, and then when I was
looking at colleges, like I knew I wanted to go
to school for school, Like I was like, I want
to be an engineer. I want to do science. I
had offers from D three schools, but I was like,
you know what, like I want to go to the
school that's best for my career. And I was lucky
enough that I went down to Georgia Tech, where they
had a men's hockey team, had never had girls before.
(19:18):
I was like, okay, you know what, Like I've played
Minnesota hockey, right, Like that's that's pretty physical girls hockey.
It's pretty intense, like maybe i'd have a shot here,
so it's full checking, it's whatever. I was like, okay,
like I want to Nothing's gonna happen if I don't try, right,
So tried out for the team and I made it,
and I had an amazing, amazing time there. Just switching
from girls to boys hockey at the college age was
(19:41):
that's crazy, crazy to make for sure, But I found
my in road. I'd always been a very physical player,
always been very quick, and I'm a very shut down
defensive defenceman. So I was just kind of applying those
positional skills a lot quicker now to the faster game
was something I had to really adjust to. But I've
been playing boys hockey since my freshman year college and
(20:02):
I'm a Brown and I'm the captain of the men's
club team here.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
So if we're talking about like someone who can play
a physical play, I'm a five foot four D and
I live my whole life being a stay at home
D and I kind of have a there you go,
girl work up from the same class. We would not
be good linemtes, right because there's just no offensive presence
on that line. But I laugh, like, when I was
growing up, I played boys hockey. So then I got
to Boston University and I took like six penalties in
(20:29):
my first two games, and my coach sent me down
and was like, I think you just should relax, and
also you're not going to play anymore because we can't
afford to kill all these penalties. But you talk about
growing up, you said really quickly, it was a great
place to traverse the skills you were learning and navigating
autism because it's not a problem, it's just a part
(20:49):
of your life. And how did you find those skills
and what was the application within hockey and where did
they kind of like line up for you in the
way that made it feel like, oh, yeah, that may
make some sense.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Yeah, so many different areas. And it's so cool to
have heard this from my parents now because at the
time I wasn't aware that these things were planted in
my life. I was six years old, just starting playing hockey,
and it was things like, for example, the gear, Yeah right,
and you wouldn't think about that, but as someone who
had sensory issues, some of the therapy I was doing
was being compressed, doing brushing, dealing with different like touch
type things and hockey gear, compressing your whole body out shoulder, freezers, everything,
(21:26):
and so it really was like that was one thing
that kind of helped calm me down. And then the
one thing I really struggled with was transitions, like going
from one activity to the next. And in the way
practices are set up when you're that young, it's just
stations most of the time, and so it has this
formula that it's like, okay, like you can see what's
coming next. Every practice we started warming up by skating
like this and that, and so it was I learned
(21:47):
this routine and this like okay, here's how I transitioned
from one thing to another, and then also the social
aspect of playing with other kids. I didn't know how
to interact with other kids at this agent that's so
key to your development. But this gave me something that
helped me, forced me to interact with other kids and
learn how to play with them because I needed to
play with them to play the sport. And so it
(22:08):
did a lot of things for me. And that's why
I have been trying to raise money from Minnesota Special
Hockey because I think it is so important to give
people who have autism, who have other special needs the
chance to play this amazing sport that helped me so
much in my life.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
And one thing that you kind of just glazed over,
captain of the Brown men's club hockey team, that's remarkable, right,
Like we're already you look at hockey as a whole,
and it has a lot of barriers to entry. Is
not super accessible, especially for girls. We're getting there from
a grassroots standpoint, but we have a long way to go.
You know, my wife and I tried sled hockey for
the first time this year. There are a lot of
(22:44):
things that people don't recognize. Whatever your disability might look like,
there are a lot of barriers to entry captain of
a men's hockey team is remarkable. So, like, is that difficult?
Do the guys respect you right away? What does that
look like? What does the locker room look like? Because
you're obviously not in there every day? Like how do
you navigate that?
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Yeah, So it was very interesting the parallel, like the
very different ways that I became ingratiated my teams at
Georgia Tech versus at Brown So at Georgia Tech, I'm
coming as a freshman's my first time playing men's hockey.
I wasn't sure of myself. I it was kind of like,
do I am I gonna fit in here? What are
they gonna think of me? And it took a long
time for me to earn their respect. And these are
amazing guys. I'm going to one of my teammates from
(23:24):
Georgia Tech's wedding next week, like very close with so
many guys on the team. But it took me a
long time to feel comfortable and that I belonged. And
also we were a very good team. We got fifth
in Nationals my last year there, and I was like
fourth line grinder, Like I got maybe two shifts a
period would work my hardest in those shifts, was like
like very I knew my role. And then I came
(23:45):
to Brown and I was like, I'm gonna have to
battle from the bottom again. I'm gonna have to prove
to them that I belonged, that, like I can be
one of the guys that I'm part of this team.
I show up and it was totally different. I shined
on the ice compared to these guys. There's it was
very different levels of play. That's fine, yeah, just by
like because we have a varsity team at Brown, right,
and so just my skill alone, everyone auto was like, oh,
(24:06):
she's good. I was first line, like right off the bat,
which I was never expecting playing men's hockey, and I
was like, okay, like I can do this, and kind
of took on a leadership role just before I even
earned my captainship because I was older than them, I'd
been through this. I was coming in. I was twenty
one starting at Brown when I'd been eighteen starting at
Georgia Tech, and so I had a lot of confidence myself.
(24:27):
I had been through it, and everyone kind of was
drawn to that, and it was a unanimous kind of
vote when they were like yeah, we want, we want
Eva to represent our team, to be the head of this,
which was really amazing to have such support from such
a team.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
I mean, you're like talking and I'm like, I'm like
processing this as it's coming out of your mouth. So
my older brother played club hockey at Miami of Ohio
and I still play pick up with him in the summer,
and I played D one at Wisconsin and then nine
years of professional hockey, I could not play club hockey
with my brother's crew. Like that is no small feet.
I'm like, that's in full contact, right, like oh yeah,
(25:02):
oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
That was a big adjustment, especially in the South when
like this was what twenty nineteen when I started at
Georgia Tech. Anyone, anytime someone saw a ponytail like yay
playing Auburn Clemson Southern boys who've never played with the
girl before now like they would target me. They'd say
the most atrocious things about like, oh, like how are
you on this team? Which is that one of them
is your boyfriend? Like and much worse, like it's very nice,
(25:24):
very that's not what they said, yeah, very very hard
and just but the way my teammates rallied around that
protected me. And then now at Brown here like the
few times I've I've received a lot more respect because
I am one of the primary players on the team.
But the few times I have had interactions where guys
have come after me, now like everybody we will all
jump down someone like I've gotten my own fights. I'm like,
(25:46):
I'll stand up for myself, like the I You're like.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
This one's on me, this one's on the house.
Speaker 5 (25:50):
Boys, I got it.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Oh, we like the and and and it helps I
I often know the RAF since I am a rap
in the area, like they'll get it. They'll see it's
me and they're like, oh, this makes sense, but problem starter. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Do you think growing up do you think growing up
playing hockey and being an athlete, like I mean, you're
a clearly eight and extremely high achiever. Do you think
that that athlete in you has fueled that or does
like that high achiever in you fuel the athlete.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
The high achiever in me is what fuels everything right
every aspect of my life. I strive to be the
best that I can be in it. And so whether
that's on the ice, playing hockey, reffing hockey. I now
am a NC DOUBLEA Hockey East Official, which I'm very
proud of. I've worked very hard there, whether it's yeah,
thank you, whether it's it's in my academic career as
now I'm striving for a PhD, the highest degree I
(26:40):
can get, like in engineering here, like it's I constantly
am looking for challenges in my life, whether that's physical, mental,
like I'm I'm always going after it and I love
just having something new to dedicate myself to.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Well, we always see that, you know, women that rise
are women that are athletes, and not that women that
aren't athletes don't. But we just we we look for
a certain type of tour, don't we. And so I think,
you know, we always joke at Madison and I's biggest
joke because like when she going on Survivor or amazing
race or something incredibly hard, because.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
I should never by the way she's training for it.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Mentally, I swear she just will like lock the keys
out of the car and then try to like finagle
her way in. But you have all these challenges, and
you're a challenge seeker, and I think that that's what
makes you excellent. And you choose Survivor and you know
before you even go it's going to push you to
every limit that you've ever even broken through in the past.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
So I want to talk about it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
First of all, why did you choose that platform?
Speaker 4 (27:38):
What I applied for Survivor, it was like, this is
a cool new thing I want to do. I wasn't
thinking about the struggles the challenges that it would bring
to me. I was like, this is another cool challenge
that I want to try. And I'm someone that it's like,
I'm not going to let my worries of what other
people think what I think about myself, Like these these
stressors from outside perspective stop me from doing something I want.
(28:00):
Like if I was worried about what other people thought,
I never would have tried out for a men's hockey right.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Like hop facts, I am.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
Very much like I'm gonna go do whatever I want
to do, and this is something I wanted to do.
And then as I'm going through this interview process and
I'm like this is becoming a reality, Like I'm I'm
gonna get to go on Survivor. I had like deep
conversations with my family, with my boyfriend, people that I'm
close to about like we know there are things that
I struggle with in my life because of my autism
that are different than other people's challenges and going on
(28:27):
survivor is putting me in an environment where I'm not
gonna have the supports of my normal life. I'm not
gonna have the structure that I thrive in. I am
out there with these strangers in a totally new environment
where I'm not eating or sleeping, Like, how is that
gonna affect my brain?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (28:41):
And thinking about like knowing that I have these episodes
where I get over stimulated. I talk to my family
and they're like, you know that, like this will be
out there, like are you okay with people seeing that?
And I was like, you know what, Like I'm not
gonna let this stop me from something. And I know
that if it does happen, it's gonna help others and
I will recover from it because in my life, this
happens to me and I recover from it every time.
And I can do that on this new stage and
(29:03):
it will show other people they can recover too. So
I didn't go out there with this quest to spread
the good word of that like of what autism is
and whatnot. I just fell into this because that's what
my life is about, Like, that's how I live my life.
And now other people get to see that. It just
happens to be in this time where it's needed most
because of all the misconceptions about autism currently. So it
worked out really well and I'm very proud. But yeah,
(29:25):
it was not on my mind when I first was
thinking of going out there. For sure, I think for me,
and I think for many. I'm gonna say me and
many and speak for a thousand billion people.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That's what makes your story so authentic is it was
very clear to me from the start of the season
that you weren't there exclusively because of one thing. You
were there to win one hundred percent. And then this
piece of you, which is amazing, just like every piece
of every one of us, was a major part of
(29:56):
that story, and you had the ability to really navigate
the challenge. And I think the part that really set
and struck a major chord for me was when you
talked about the diagnosis and being a baby baby not
a child. You were a baby and they looked at
your parents and said she's gonna.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
Have less, if not nothing, and.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
They did it anyway, And so talk about your parents
a little bit and maybe ways that they supported you.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
And kind of how they navigated that.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
Yeah, I mean my yeah, like you said, my parents
when I was first diagnosed, so I was very very young,
and this is like, I'm a perfect example of how
early intervention can be such an amazing thing and like
being diagnosed young can give you so many opportunities because
my parents recognized very early that I was not like
other babies. And I would be screaming every night. It
(30:49):
was just at night, like I'd make it through the day,
and then at night I would scream, scream and scream
and scream for hours, scream so much that I would
like turn all red, I'd pass out, And it turns
out that we fight out later. That's I was getting
were stimulated throughout the day, and this is how I
rated it. And so there there was things like that.
There was different like developmental things where I was really
excelling in some areas and then like not hitting other benchmarks,
(31:10):
and my mom was very worried and they went to
all these doctors and as I was initially getting diagnosed,
doctors were telling my parents that that, oh, like your
daughter has autism. It's very severe. She's never going to
be able to hold a job, she's never gonna live independently.
At most, you can hope that she'll find someone also
with autism that she can marry. And my parents were like,
(31:31):
our biggest hope for our daughter is not gonna be
that she gets married.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, Like, by the way, did we get the bottom
of the list.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Yeah, yeah, it's like what are we gonna do to
like give her her best shot? And they found other doctors,
other therapists and stuff that gave me all these opportunities,
and they never gave up on me. As I was
growing up, they were telling me constantly that this isn't
something wrong with you. It's just something that makes you special,
gives you different challenges than other people, but it also
gives you so many strengths. And I've seen how these
strengths have given me so much in my life, my drive,
(32:00):
my intensity, but like, yeah, I have these other challenges
that make my life a little more complicated, but I
wouldn't trade that. My parents wouldn't trade that. It's made
me who I am. And I'm so thankful for them
always believing in me, Like they're just the biggest support
in everything that I do.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Something that you said, Like I want to go go
back and ask a question, but first say so, we
have a two year old and a four year old,
and like everything that I have read and watched and
educated myself on you about is that like can't doesn't
seem to exist in your vocabulary, and that is like
we truly Like when my son says I can't do something,
I'm like, you're not allowed to say that word. And
(32:48):
I think sometimes in life we get so caught up
on like like PPW and I'm going to prove this
person wrong. And when I hear you speak and I
watch what you do, it doesn't it does scene like,
oh I'm going to prove them wrong. I'm going to
show them. It's it's more like I'm going to do
this for me, right, Like I want to exceed my
own expectation. And that's if you can even answer that,
(33:09):
like where does that come from? I'm just curious because
that's a remarkable trait and you don't see it often.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Thank you, thank you. I mean it's for me. It's
always just like I want to be the best I
can be in everything that I do, and it's it's
I don't have to be the best, you know, Like
I have to be the best that I can be myself. Yeah,
and that's something that's it's it's knowing like what my
abilities are and believing in myself that I can achieve that,
and like that's that's something that especially as a girl
in like playing a men's sport like I play with boys,
(33:38):
I have to recognize I'm not going to be the
best out there, but I can be the best I
can be and I can play within my game and
do what I can do and like and I have
the most confidence in myself and academics and stuff too.
It's just always like finding those things and be like,
I believe that I can do that, so I'm gonna
do it, and it's yeah, it's I guess it's never
been that. It's like, oh, I want to be better
than that other person, or I want to show somebody
(33:58):
else that I am capable of this. I know what
I can do and I want to prove it to myself.
And even I think like that, I like you're saying
that that like I can't is not part of my
vocabulary because thinking back to watching that fire building challenge,
right that it was like not being like I can't
do this, being like, why can't I do this? Because
I knew that I could. I knew I practice building
(34:18):
a fire every day. I knew how to build a fire.
I was just getting all this pressure in my head,
my own self, building and building and creating this intensity
that I had to let out. And I had an
episode there that once again I needed help and support.
But it wasn't that I can't build a fire, It
was why can't I do it right now? Because I
know that I can? And if I am able to
figure out what's wrong, I can flip it and I.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
Can do it well.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
I think that that part also brings me to one
of my final questions.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
Naturally, having a.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Difficulty with social understanding is not the greatest for a
game of mental deception and all the elements of beyond,
just like the fortitude part of Survivor. But you found
Joe and there was something comfortable in Joe, and then
you shared your story with Joe, and then and then
the challenge that you broke down, like you know, the
one that probably everyone talks to you about every single day,
(35:07):
and you're like, Okay, there's other parts of the show
that you should really get involved in You go from
hiding autism to them just feeling like you could talk
about it. How much did your game change from that
moment to every moment after that? Maybe not like what
did it feel to make Jeff cry?
Speaker 5 (35:22):
But don't. I don't want a cliche question.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I want like, how did how much more free did
you feel after that?
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Yeah, honestly, it was a very like strange switch because also, like,
this is not something that I had talked about a
ton of my life up to this point. Because like,
obviously the people I grew up with they knew I
had autism. My close friends and family like they know,
like people when I tell them, they I have to
be to tell someone for them to know I have autism.
People just don't know that. It's not something that I
just like walk in and be like hey, everybody, I'm
(35:49):
on the spectrum. Like no, like it's it's something that's
I'm not ashamed of, but it just doesn't come up.
And so most people in my life found out that
I had autism by watching me on TV too, which
it's just such a strange thing. Basically at Brown, like
I had very close friends at Georgia Tech that I told,
but at Brown only like two of the guys knew.
It was very like such a strange thing for both
(36:11):
on the island for everyone to find out, and then
knowing that like, oh, like everyone in my life is
going to find out too. So on the island, I
was nervous because I was like, Okay, Like there's been
times where I've had these episodes, Like I used to
do cross country and I would get very overwhelmed in races,
and at the end of the race, I'd finish the
race and I'd start screaming and people would look at
me like I was crazy, and They're like, what's wrong
(36:31):
with her? And I couldn't explain, I couldn't verbalize like
I was really going through it, and I felt just
so disgusted about myself then. And this is when I
was in high school and I've grown and learned a
lot about myself and being more comfortable. But the way
that these people looked at me when I talked about
what was going on and explained to them on Survivor
was the complete opposite. Every single person out there looked
at me with so much care and support, and these
(36:52):
tribes who I hadn't met anybody yet, and never spoken
a word to these people and they cared about me,
and it just really showed me. I was like, yo,
I think the world is ready for this kind of thing.
They're ready to hear this because it is important. And
I then going forward when we merged, I met everybody,
like so many Everybody came up to me with different stories,
like connections in their own life, that they have a nephew,
(37:13):
they have a friend, they know this or that, and
like it just it really opened these doors to connect
with people. And by being so vulnerable and open, my
gameplay also was amazing because I created these really tight
relationships type bonds, not just with Joe, I know that's
the biggest key one, Like Joe and I were a
super tight alliance, but I created an extremely tight bond
with Kyle that was shown Kyle is a brother to
(37:36):
me in life now. And I had connections with people
like Mary and David and Shaheen that weren't really shown,
but it was. I opened myself up in this vulnerable
way that other people then were willing to be vulnerable
themselves with me. So it was very very cool how
that shifted. And instead of worrying about like are people
gonna lie to me. It was me being like, how
am I going to protect these people I care about?
Speaker 5 (37:58):
Now?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah, you could kind of feel that with Kyle at
the end, like you feel. I definitely felt like you
missed some stuff with Kyle because at the end when
the fire building challenge kind of happened, he was like,
I am I putting her in the wrong position. And
I think that that, like switching him from his other gameplay,
was clear that you guys had a very tight bond,
and I thought that that was really really beautiful. Well, yeah,
(38:20):
we end every episode with parenting advice.
Speaker 5 (38:22):
I'm not going to ask you that.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
I'm gonna knock on one at twenty four. I hope
you don't have enough kids around children. I don't have
any plans for that soon, no shade, But I'm not
going to ask any parenting advice. I want to ask
you a question that I think is topically relevant for you.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Though.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
The advice I want you to try to impart is
not just for people with autism, but it's for any
person that has a certain limitation or expectation that is.
Speaker 5 (38:49):
Put on them.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
How do you stay motivated to defy Probably some of
the most limiting factors, which is what someone else has
prescribed for you. So what is your best advice, how
can somebody overcome something like that? And what do you
use in your own life that can help you kind
of navigate through some of those limiting expectations.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
My dad would always say to me that there's two
things you can always control in your life. And you
can't control what other people think. You can't control outside
factors of like what everyone else is doing. But there's
two things you can control, and it's your attitude and
your effort. And so I always try to come into
everything I do with a good positive attitude that, like,
you know, I can do whatever I think of, I
believe in myself, Like I know that I can do this,
(39:32):
and I'm gonna regardless of what happens, I'm gonna be
positive about it. And then the second thing is is
your effort. And I always am like I'm gonna give
one hundred and fifty percent everything I do, Like there
is no like going halfway. It's full in. And that's
that's the things that have brought me success and have
made me be able to like live to the fullest
is because this is just such a value that my
My parents were always like, those are the things you
(39:54):
can control, so control them and you'll always be able
to do whatever you want.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Which seems like a simple answer, but in practice is
actually a very difficult thing to do because there's like
you find yourself in situations all the time where it's like, oh, yeah,
I can control what I give and what my attitude is.
But you show up day after day and sometimes the
situation doesn't change or external factors don't change. As a
(40:18):
what I like to consider a high level athlete, I
appreciate that answer because I think it goes understated so
frequently and it is truly so important, and it's the
difference between being good and being great is having the
ability to control that.
Speaker 4 (40:30):
So yeah, no, for sure, especially in sports when it's
like your coach gets to decide your ice time, like
you're not picking your lines, You're just you have to
fill your role. But it's like you can come in
with a good attitude and a good work ethic that's
gonna make all the difference and it will make your
time better and happier too, if you like believe in yourself,
and then it's like, you know what I'm gonna do
the best I can with what I've got.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah, truly, Well, this has been incredible. Honestly, one of
my favorite guests so far. You are truly a remarkable
person doing awesome things, not just for people with autism,
but just truly for kids who have goals and dreams.
As a parent, I appreciate you and thank you for
sharing your story and for showing people that we can
(41:10):
defy the limitations that society puts on us. This has
been an incredible conversation. We are so grateful to you.
And next time you find my badgers out in hockey,
maybe slip them a few calls.
Speaker 4 (41:20):
Hey, Hey, I'm a linesman. I'm off side and icing.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
You can call behind the play, you know.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
Yeah, I'll keep my eye. I'll be counting for those
too many men. All right.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Well, well, thank you for joining us on these packs pluck.
This has been awesome.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
Yeah, this is a lot of fun. Thank you for
having me.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
That's it for this week.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
Thanks for listening, and if you like what you heard,
spread the word seriously right now, take your phone out,
text a friend and tell them to subscribe.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify. If you haven't already, it really really
helps until next week.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
I'm Madison Packer and I'm Anya Packer, and this was
These Puck.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
These Packs Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us
Madison and Anya Packer. Emily Mehernoff is our senior producer
and story editor. We were mixed and mastered by Mary Deo.
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry.
Hi, everyone, Welcome to these packs puck. I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I are both former
pro hockey players. We met through hockey and fell in love,
and now we're married with two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
These days, we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives, between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids and.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
All the messiness in between.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
So buckle the puck up because there is a lot
to talk about. Hey, Anya, Hey back, how we doing.
We're all right, we're tired kids. I don't think anyone
slept last night, nobody.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I'm concerned for the check in bit because even through
newborn phase, I think that last night might have been
the roughest.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Oh, it was brutal.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
You slept a bit, though, you slept through a bit
of bit.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Well, okay, let's get into the hockey hot take. Before
you start throwing daggers over there, just chill out a.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Little hockey hot take.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
So we were about a week after the Peter Bchil Draft.
I'm going to say that my hockey hot teak is
I am quite perplexed as to what we're putting on
the ice. And all the different intricacies of what happened
in last weeks draft.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
The hockey hot take is, what the fuck is happening
in women's hockey?
Speaker 4 (01:15):
What's going on?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So we've talked about it a little bit, but you
had two seasons of professional women's hockey for the quote
unquote first time with this new league, and so you
eliminated what like at least fifty percent. I think it's
more like sixty percent, but somewhere in there of the
veteran player pool through just everything that happened, I.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Was gonna say the thing is typically and then maybe
not it's one hundred percent, but typically players that get
drafted are then put on those rosters like they are
rewarding young talent in this league, which to grow and
grow quickly they do need to do. But last year
they did it at like a seven roster spot swing
per franchise.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
And some with multi year deals. Correct, So you cannot
now get up.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
Correct.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So the lesson was that you started the league with
a myriad of players, right, and call it three hundred
fighting for six teams worth of spots.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Then that's us, most of which on one year deals.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Correct, But then that's us is out into six teams,
and then they drafted about seven slots per team, some more,
some less because of trading, but basically all those spots
were guaranteed to those rookies. So the league got another
influx of fifty players that were very very young, which
pushed out older players. And then you know, so in
ball rolls. Then year three we expand to two more
(02:37):
teams and take an expansion draft and then have an
even larger rookie draft and also have to pull players
from practice player spots, reserve spots, players that were cut
last year and now are getting signed to roster spots.
So it's kind of like a weird ebb and flow, right, Like,
we tightened the player pool, then expanded it a ton
(02:58):
with young talent, which is not bad but like part
of the growing pains. And you know, they're playing NCAA sports,
which is different than pro sports. But again we expand
the player pool, then we expand it again, right, and
like we've not really gotten over this levening that we
took and like really trimming down the league and getting
rid of two times a veteran player pool because we
(03:22):
did that when the league started, right, we lost a
bunch of players that played CBHL, PHF SDHL, like we bought,
lost a bunch of players to these six teams. Then
we had the draft and we lost a bunch of
players to these rookies. Then we had an expansion where
we added a bunch of player spots, and now we're
just seeing like kind of chaos.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
In my opinion, I.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Think that if we took the opportunity to look at
the CHAKA projected draft list right like, based on the
stats and where players ranked up, and then you saw
how players got drafted year one, the math doesn't math,
so you automatically denigrate the value of players because you're
(04:06):
also introducing, respectfully a multitude of people into this league
who maybe don't have a breath of knowledge in women's hockey.
Then year one rolls by, year two comes up, it's
mostly the same group of players. You introduce a new
draft class. The draft class is strong. But now year
(04:28):
three and it's very different because we have eliminated so
many veterans who like, you can't replicate and you cannot
replace veteran experience full stop, no, and the speed, the
understanding all of it.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Right So right now, for example, you have new York
and New York made some like very choice moves in
my opinion, in this entire thing. But they protected Elas Shelton.
Then they traded Elas Shelton for a first round draft
pick and a second round draft pick? Was it a
first and a third? They basically trade the best d
in the entire league for a couple of picks. So right,
(05:05):
that's another veteran gone.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
And then they traded their best player or second best player,
like totally phenomenal, another CAT affiliate as effective without carp Carpenter,
I don't think so. I think that Ella was the
best player all year.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So Alex Carpenter was lost in the expansion draft. And
then you trade away Ella Shelton in the first round
to get Casey O'Brien. Again, I get wanting Casey O'Brien,
but I don't get losing Ella for it.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
She's small though again she's small.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
With you, but I think she's going to be great.
But I think that's what that's that's like, the risk
in the reward for me is not there. And then
you trade off Abby Rock and you've already lost Jesse Eldridge,
You've already lost all these other players. And all these
different pieces so to create the puzzle. Now, if you're
looking at the roster of New York, you now have
(05:55):
no carp no Rock, no Shelton, no Eldridge, no Son.
I mean, you've got none of your veterans.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
I don't want to dive too deep into New York
because I have some inside doledge and I think that
is unfair. But the logic makes no sense, right, Like
the logic makes you want to rebuild, sure, But but
you have to appreciate and recognize it's not college hockey,
it's pro hockey. You're getting paid to do what you're doing.
(06:26):
It's kill or be killed. And so so look at
once what Montreal is doing. And like I think that
the O'Neill for Rock trade is interesting though that was
an interesting one. I think that Rock needs a change
of scenery for sure. And I think she's a great player,
a little bit misunderstood, maybe needs a little like a
strong a little stronger leadership and guidance. But it just
(06:50):
you have to value experience. Look at look at the NHL. Well,
I mean Corey Perry's forty, yeah, still playing and he's
gonna play again, and he in how many Stanley Cup
finals in a row, Like you cannot replace a backbone,
a leader, someone who's been there, done that, Like we
(07:10):
just don't value that for some reason, and it's insane.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Well, I also thought it was interesting if you had
two picks in the first round if I'm New York,
because why not Why carven In goes first round seventh
pick to Vancouver when you need veterans. You've got a
brand new, shiny object veteran who could bring you Olympic experience,
winning experience, SDHL experience, captain style leadership. Like you have
(07:39):
carven In on the board and we just let her
go to Vancouver.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Sure, and that's where again, what are we doing? No disparagement,
but maybe there's a little bit of like insider trading
going on there. She played for Adolski at Nodak. She
has not come to North America but Madison. But if
you're the bund just saying maybe maybe maybe she made
(08:04):
it abundantly clear that like piss off, I'll go there,
but I'm going nowhere else.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
But you know what I mean, Like, look what and
they picked her right away?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Well, yes, that's a strategy, I guess so.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
But my point is if I'm maybe else, but no
one else.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
But but Kessel was an eighth throne.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I don't care if I'm Boston and I've lost night,
if I'm New York and I know I'm trading Ella,
if I'm if I'm any of these two.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
But you're gonna waste a first round pick on a
throw you have to.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
New York has too.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, but their first pick as controversial as it is
for off ice reasons. Great hockey player. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Again, I'm not taking it away, but I'm saying, if
I have no.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Veteran needs some media training, If I've.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Got no veterans, I'm going carving in. That's what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
I don't disagree. Then, I thought it was interesting that
you're not gonna you can waste an eighth round. You
can't waste a first round.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Well, all that to say each team there was six round.
New York traded to get three more picks. So New
York is going to be comprised of the seven rookies
from last year that were signed, and the nine rookies
from this year, and some one or two year veterans.
(09:16):
If you're looking at the draft, and we obviously take
the Lens from New York. I think it's just because
that your former team, and like we just see it.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Most there, love it, love it, wanted to succeed. They're
gonna get one annihilated this year.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
They're gonna get crunched because everyone's gonna get crunched by
by and I hope I'm by the way everyone's getting.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
Crunched by Seattle and Vancouver.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, that's a period, full stop, don't care what you
tell me, and then let me take it on the office,
let me go off ice. Paige Kate Becker's drafted first
round five hundred thousand likes, Attention Calti drafted first round,
first round first pick by New York a thousand likes.
We also just aren't growing the market share, Like this
(09:59):
draft could have been a moment in time. There was
salacious stuff that happened. There was drama, There was like
great fits, like everything about it said it was gonna
be good, and we just can't get off the blocks
and get out of our own way. The drama was there.
Sometimes we have no drama.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
We had it.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, I'll close with this. In my opinion, I did
like a little like pre draft whatever bs on some paper.
I had Murphy going number one. Yeah, but Murphy didn't
enter the draft. Why Harvey wasn't in the draft? Why
because the conversation around compensation is still wildly inaccurate and
(10:40):
there's more value in continuing to further your career. Also,
it's an Olympic year in the NCAA. So I live
and die and breathe hockey. I love women's hockey. I
want this league to succeed, but we gotta be better.
And the criticism goes both ways, right, we were so
(11:02):
constantly critical of the end up and the PHF and
all this shit. Come on, guys, if we want what's
best and we want to be better, then we got
to call it out. Players deserve more power and they
deserve a stronger PA. I fully I'll close with that.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I fully agree we should talk about things like that
more often, because that's where we both are really quite obsessed.
But before we get too far into a whole other topic,
and before you start roasting me for sleeping last night,
why don't we do a little check in. Why don't
you tell me one to one hundred, where are you at?
(11:40):
How much can you contribute today? What's going on? What's
inside the brain.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I'm I'm like a thirty two.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
How much of it is no sleep and how much
of it is other contributing factors.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
I'm a little low. So we've committed to being honest
with our audience. I'm a little I've been going through
some stuff lately. It's okay to feel low, weird, depressed, but.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
That's okay a little bit.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I'm excited because we're gonna go see aunt Emma shout
out Emma. Woods woo Waaling came up to me that day.
He's like, remember that auntie that used to live in
the basement, the basement troll. What's her name again, Amanda?
Which is not her name? I said, aunt Emma. He goes, yeah,
I miss her. So we're going We're going home to
(12:31):
Michigan for a little bit. Home to me, not home
to you. And so we're gonna we re routed instead
driving through PENNSYLTUCKI We're gonna drive through Niagara Falls and
see the world's biggest waterfall, which the kids are really
pumped about.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
But yeah, I've been deep diving in my therapy, getting
in the trenches on some stuff, and so I'm a
little low. I also did not sleep last night a wink.
I think I finally closed my eyes at like four fifteen.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
That's the worst I know.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
And you were you were, you were up.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
But I was on it. I was on it with
the kids. And Whalen fell out of bed, but it
like took him a minute. So he fell out of bed,
and we're switching security systems, which we just got back
up and running today, but it wasn't running yesterday.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
So I heard like.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
A slam and I'm like, was that the basement door?
And then I'm like okay, I'm like waiting, waiting, waiting,
And then we had such streaming and I'm like, oh no,
he fell out of bed. And then Harlan like talks
in her sleep, which you also do, by the way,
which I've realized now that I don't sleep as much.
(13:39):
But it's like loud and it's only like two where
it's like yes.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Go, I'm just cheering. Such good.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
We're hovering around thirty four to thirty seven. I could
be pumped. I think you need a couple extras.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I'm alright because it was actually mild temperature today so
I could in the windows, so that was kind of nice.
Speaker 5 (14:02):
I need to go get a workout in because I'm like.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
She says that because she doesn't want to turn the eciy.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Yeah, I don't want turn the AC on.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
That's I think anyone who knows anything about me can
definitely clock that to.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
Be the reason as well. But I feel good. I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I think I'm at like a sixty sixty something, so
I could I could make up.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I can whatever the delta is between you and two
trying to figure out that math. Yeah, that's what I'm in.
I'm in.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
I can be this sixty three sixty sixty seven, No
depends what your number is.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
You gave me a freaking range.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I can. I can be the opposite of your six
to sixty three.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Okay, I can be the opposite of your range because
I feel like I don't feel so bad. I slepped
more than you did. My orr ring, on the other hand,
was screaming at me like you are not rested, do
not do any workouts, please just chill and my.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
Body temperatures up.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
So maybe I'm getting sick.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
All that to say, I can pick up the slack
for you today because I uh or your period little
let down. Yeah, maybe I've got my period. Honestly, I
hope not, but maybe shout out to my period who
who comes every month like.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
A real log.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
But anyway, not about that. I am really excited about
today's show. I know we talked to all things draft.
I know we talked all things not feeling so great.
But if you want a little inspiration in your day,
you've got to listen to the next guest. Eva Erickson.
I am so excited. She is inspiring to us in
life and in hockey. You might have seen her on
the last season of Survivor. She was the runner up.
(15:30):
She also made history on Survivor being the first person
that was open about having autism. So throughout the season
there were some moments that were really emotional that even
made Jeff probescry. She's also insanely smart. Pack could not
even come close. You and I are dumb in comparison.
She's getting her PhD at Brown. She's a Minnesota girl.
(15:51):
She played hockey your whole life, and men continued to
play hockey in college, but with the men's club side
at two different universities, which we will absolutely dive into.
We're going to take a quick break, but then we'll
get into our conversation with Eva, so join us shortly.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Hi, Eva, Welcome to these PACs Puck. We are so
excited to have you.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me here. I'm
so excited.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
So obviously, we talk a lot about hockey on our show,
but we're also big advocates for mental health and celebrating differences,
and so for that and many other reasons, we're really
excited to have you. And we were moved by your
story on Survivor and we thought it would be a
great opportunity to have you on the show. You have
a remarkable story and journey, and we're going to get
into all that, but first we want to start talking
(16:43):
a little hockey. I've got a bone to pick. You're
a p WHL Minnesota fan. You were at the final, Yeah,
it was exciting. Are you a fan or were you
just at that game? Like? How's that?
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Of course, I'm a cheer for my hometown team. I'm
just a big fan of the PWHL, that's all.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
She's a Minnesotan.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Yes, I'm from Minnesota, so I'm gonna cheer for them regardless.
But I just I just love overall that there is
a women's pro league now, like that's something that wasn't
there when I was a kid, So like, it's so
awesome to get to watch and like getting to be
at that final game seeing the Walter Cup handed out
and how many little girls were in the stands made
me so excited for the direction hockey's going right now.
(17:22):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
So, my gosh, they're your favorite team. Do you follow
the league in general or.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
Yeah, yeah, a little bit. I mean it's weird seeing
a lot of a lot of girls that I played
against in high school out there playing and different stuff.
I one of my my close friends here in Providence.
Her sister plays for the Boston team, the Fleet. Her
sister is Sophie Shirley. So okay, oh yeah, I watch, yeah,
see a little bit of that. So it's it's cool
to have a lot of connections and everything there.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
She's a fellow Badger, yes, yeah, I mean, and I
grew up a Gopher fans, so another kind of a
bone to pick.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, that's a big bone to pick.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I I don't have time on the show. Yeah you
got all right?
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Well cool, So let's take a step back and talk
about how did you start playing hockey. How'd you get
into it? What was it like growing up? You talked
a little bit, you played with girls a little bit,
But what was that like?
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Yeah, I mean growing up in Minnesota, Like I learned
to skate. That's my earliest memory was like three years old,
learning to skate with my dad out on the lake,
like and as a kid, like getting into hockey. It
was during a time when I was struggling with a
lot of things related to my autism, and I found
this sport that where I was able to socialize with
kids my age do this activity that gave me something
to focus on, be really committed to, and kind of
(18:36):
like was able to apply the strategies I'd been learning
to deal with sensory issues as a kid applying that
to something I love. So it became something really quick
that I really fixated on in my life, and it's
become so central to who I am. So I grew
up playing boys hockey until checking switched to girls hockey.
Minnesota has amazing girls hockey. I played through high school,
went to the state tournament in Minnesota, Big Deal was amazing.
(18:58):
Played for Egan High school, and then when I was
looking at colleges, like I knew I wanted to go
to school for school, Like I was like, I want
to be an engineer. I want to do science. I
had offers from D three schools, but I was like,
you know what, like I want to go to the
school that's best for my career. And I was lucky
enough that I went down to Georgia Tech, where they
had a men's hockey team, had never had girls before.
(19:18):
I was like, okay, you know what, Like I've played
Minnesota hockey, right, Like that's that's pretty physical girls hockey.
It's pretty intense, like maybe i'd have a shot here,
so it's full checking, it's whatever. I was like, okay,
like I want to Nothing's gonna happen if I don't try, right,
So tried out for the team and I made it,
and I had an amazing, amazing time there. Just switching
from girls to boys hockey at the college age was
(19:41):
that's crazy, crazy to make for sure, But I found
my in road. I'd always been a very physical player,
always been very quick, and I'm a very shut down
defensive defenceman. So I was just kind of applying those
positional skills a lot quicker now to the faster game
was something I had to really adjust to. But I've
been playing boys hockey since my freshman year college and
(20:02):
I'm a Brown and I'm the captain of the men's
club team here.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
So if we're talking about like someone who can play
a physical play, I'm a five foot four D and
I live my whole life being a stay at home
D and I kind of have a there you go,
girl work up from the same class. We would not
be good linemtes, right because there's just no offensive presence
on that line. But I laugh, like, when I was
growing up, I played boys hockey. So then I got
to Boston University and I took like six penalties in
(20:29):
my first two games, and my coach sent me down
and was like, I think you just should relax, and
also you're not going to play anymore because we can't
afford to kill all these penalties. But you talk about
growing up, you said really quickly, it was a great
place to traverse the skills you were learning and navigating
autism because it's not a problem, it's just a part
(20:49):
of your life. And how did you find those skills
and what was the application within hockey and where did
they kind of like line up for you in the
way that made it feel like, oh, yeah, that may
make some sense.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Yeah, so many different areas. And it's so cool to
have heard this from my parents now because at the
time I wasn't aware that these things were planted in
my life. I was six years old, just starting playing hockey,
and it was things like, for example, the gear, Yeah right,
and you wouldn't think about that, but as someone who
had sensory issues, some of the therapy I was doing
was being compressed, doing brushing, dealing with different like touch
type things and hockey gear, compressing your whole body out shoulder, freezers, everything,
(21:26):
and so it really was like that was one thing
that kind of helped calm me down. And then the
one thing I really struggled with was transitions, like going
from one activity to the next. And in the way
practices are set up when you're that young, it's just
stations most of the time, and so it has this
formula that it's like, okay, like you can see what's
coming next. Every practice we started warming up by skating
like this and that, and so it was I learned
(21:47):
this routine and this like okay, here's how I transitioned
from one thing to another, and then also the social
aspect of playing with other kids. I didn't know how
to interact with other kids at this agent that's so
key to your development. But this gave me something that
helped me, forced me to interact with other kids and
learn how to play with them because I needed to
play with them to play the sport. And so it
(22:08):
did a lot of things for me. And that's why
I have been trying to raise money from Minnesota Special
Hockey because I think it is so important to give
people who have autism, who have other special needs the
chance to play this amazing sport that helped me so
much in my life.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
And one thing that you kind of just glazed over,
captain of the Brown men's club hockey team, that's remarkable, right,
Like we're already you look at hockey as a whole,
and it has a lot of barriers to entry. Is
not super accessible, especially for girls. We're getting there from
a grassroots standpoint, but we have a long way to go.
You know, my wife and I tried sled hockey for
the first time this year. There are a lot of
(22:44):
things that people don't recognize. Whatever your disability might look like,
there are a lot of barriers to entry captain of
a men's hockey team is remarkable. So, like, is that difficult?
Do the guys respect you right away? What does that
look like? What does the locker room look like? Because
you're obviously not in there every day? Like how do
you navigate that?
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Yeah, So it was very interesting the parallel, like the
very different ways that I became ingratiated my teams at
Georgia Tech versus at Brown So at Georgia Tech, I'm
coming as a freshman's my first time playing men's hockey.
I wasn't sure of myself. I it was kind of like,
do I am I gonna fit in here? What are
they gonna think of me? And it took a long
time for me to earn their respect. And these are
amazing guys. I'm going to one of my teammates from
(23:24):
Georgia Tech's wedding next week, like very close with so
many guys on the team. But it took me a
long time to feel comfortable and that I belonged. And
also we were a very good team. We got fifth
in Nationals my last year there, and I was like
fourth line grinder, Like I got maybe two shifts a
period would work my hardest in those shifts, was like
like very I knew my role. And then I came
(23:45):
to Brown and I was like, I'm gonna have to
battle from the bottom again. I'm gonna have to prove
to them that I belonged, that, like I can be
one of the guys that I'm part of this team.
I show up and it was totally different. I shined
on the ice compared to these guys. There's it was
very different levels of play. That's fine, yeah, just by
like because we have a varsity team at Brown, right,
and so just my skill alone, everyone auto was like, oh,
(24:06):
she's good. I was first line, like right off the bat,
which I was never expecting playing men's hockey, and I
was like, okay, like I can do this, and kind
of took on a leadership role just before I even
earned my captainship because I was older than them, I'd
been through this. I was coming in. I was twenty
one starting at Brown when I'd been eighteen starting at
Georgia Tech, and so I had a lot of confidence myself.
(24:27):
I had been through it, and everyone kind of was
drawn to that, and it was a unanimous kind of
vote when they were like yeah, we want, we want
Eva to represent our team, to be the head of this,
which was really amazing to have such support from such
a team.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
I mean, you're like talking and I'm like, I'm like
processing this as it's coming out of your mouth. So
my older brother played club hockey at Miami of Ohio
and I still play pick up with him in the summer,
and I played D one at Wisconsin and then nine
years of professional hockey, I could not play club hockey
with my brother's crew. Like that is no small feet.
I'm like, that's in full contact, right, like oh yeah,
(25:02):
oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
That was a big adjustment, especially in the South when
like this was what twenty nineteen when I started at
Georgia Tech. Anyone, anytime someone saw a ponytail like yay
playing Auburn Clemson Southern boys who've never played with the
girl before now like they would target me. They'd say
the most atrocious things about like, oh, like how are
you on this team? Which is that one of them
is your boyfriend? Like and much worse, like it's very nice,
(25:24):
very that's not what they said, yeah, very very hard
and just but the way my teammates rallied around that
protected me. And then now at Brown here like the
few times I've I've received a lot more respect because
I am one of the primary players on the team.
But the few times I have had interactions where guys
have come after me, now like everybody we will all
jump down someone like I've gotten my own fights. I'm like,
(25:46):
I'll stand up for myself, like the I You're like.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
This one's on me, this one's on the house.
Speaker 5 (25:50):
Boys, I got it.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Oh, we like the and and and it helps I
I often know the RAF since I am a rap
in the area, like they'll get it. They'll see it's
me and they're like, oh, this makes sense, but problem starter. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Do you think growing up do you think growing up
playing hockey and being an athlete, like I mean, you're
a clearly eight and extremely high achiever. Do you think
that that athlete in you has fueled that or does
like that high achiever in you fuel the athlete.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
The high achiever in me is what fuels everything right
every aspect of my life. I strive to be the
best that I can be in it. And so whether
that's on the ice, playing hockey, reffing hockey. I now
am a NC DOUBLEA Hockey East Official, which I'm very
proud of. I've worked very hard there, whether it's yeah,
thank you, whether it's it's in my academic career as
now I'm striving for a PhD, the highest degree I
(26:40):
can get, like in engineering here, like it's I constantly
am looking for challenges in my life, whether that's physical, mental,
like I'm I'm always going after it and I love
just having something new to dedicate myself to.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Well, we always see that, you know, women that rise
are women that are athletes, and not that women that
aren't athletes don't. But we just we we look for
a certain type of tour, don't we. And so I think,
you know, we always joke at Madison and I's biggest
joke because like when she going on Survivor or amazing
race or something incredibly hard, because.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
I should never by the way she's training for it.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Mentally, I swear she just will like lock the keys
out of the car and then try to like finagle
her way in. But you have all these challenges, and
you're a challenge seeker, and I think that that's what
makes you excellent. And you choose Survivor and you know
before you even go it's going to push you to
every limit that you've ever even broken through in the past.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
So I want to talk about it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
First of all, why did you choose that platform?
Speaker 4 (27:38):
What I applied for Survivor, it was like, this is
a cool new thing I want to do. I wasn't
thinking about the struggles the challenges that it would bring
to me. I was like, this is another cool challenge
that I want to try. And I'm someone that it's like,
I'm not going to let my worries of what other
people think what I think about myself, Like these these
stressors from outside perspective stop me from doing something I want.
(28:00):
Like if I was worried about what other people thought,
I never would have tried out for a men's hockey right.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Like hop facts, I am.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
Very much like I'm gonna go do whatever I want
to do, and this is something I wanted to do.
And then as I'm going through this interview process and
I'm like this is becoming a reality, Like I'm I'm
gonna get to go on Survivor. I had like deep
conversations with my family, with my boyfriend, people that I'm
close to about like we know there are things that
I struggle with in my life because of my autism
that are different than other people's challenges and going on
(28:27):
survivor is putting me in an environment where I'm not
gonna have the supports of my normal life. I'm not
gonna have the structure that I thrive in. I am
out there with these strangers in a totally new environment
where I'm not eating or sleeping, Like, how is that
gonna affect my brain?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (28:41):
And thinking about like knowing that I have these episodes
where I get over stimulated. I talk to my family
and they're like, you know that, like this will be
out there, like are you okay with people seeing that?
And I was like, you know what, Like I'm not
gonna let this stop me from something. And I know
that if it does happen, it's gonna help others and
I will recover from it because in my life, this
happens to me and I recover from it every time.
And I can do that on this new stage and
(29:03):
it will show other people they can recover too. So
I didn't go out there with this quest to spread
the good word of that like of what autism is
and whatnot. I just fell into this because that's what
my life is about, Like, that's how I live my life.
And now other people get to see that. It just
happens to be in this time where it's needed most
because of all the misconceptions about autism currently. So it
worked out really well and I'm very proud. But yeah,
(29:25):
it was not on my mind when I first was
thinking of going out there. For sure, I think for me,
and I think for many. I'm gonna say me and
many and speak for a thousand billion people.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
That's what makes your story so authentic is it was
very clear to me from the start of the season
that you weren't there exclusively because of one thing. You
were there to win one hundred percent. And then this
piece of you, which is amazing, just like every piece
of every one of us, was a major part of
(29:56):
that story, and you had the ability to really navigate
the challenge. And I think the part that really set
and struck a major chord for me was when you
talked about the diagnosis and being a baby baby not
a child. You were a baby and they looked at
your parents and said she's gonna.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
Have less, if not nothing, and.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
They did it anyway, And so talk about your parents
a little bit and maybe ways that they supported you.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
And kind of how they navigated that.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
Yeah, I mean my yeah, like you said, my parents
when I was first diagnosed, so I was very very young,
and this is like, I'm a perfect example of how
early intervention can be such an amazing thing and like
being diagnosed young can give you so many opportunities because
my parents recognized very early that I was not like
other babies. And I would be screaming every night. It
(30:49):
was just at night, like I'd make it through the day,
and then at night I would scream, scream and scream
and scream for hours, scream so much that I would
like turn all red, I'd pass out, And it turns
out that we fight out later. That's I was getting
were stimulated throughout the day, and this is how I
rated it. And so there there was things like that.
There was different like developmental things where I was really
excelling in some areas and then like not hitting other benchmarks,
(31:10):
and my mom was very worried and they went to
all these doctors and as I was initially getting diagnosed,
doctors were telling my parents that that, oh, like your
daughter has autism. It's very severe. She's never going to
be able to hold a job, she's never gonna live independently.
At most, you can hope that she'll find someone also
with autism that she can marry. And my parents were like,
(31:31):
our biggest hope for our daughter is not gonna be
that she gets married.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, Like, by the way, did we get the bottom
of the list.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Yeah, yeah, it's like what are we gonna do to
like give her her best shot? And they found other doctors,
other therapists and stuff that gave me all these opportunities,
and they never gave up on me. As I was
growing up, they were telling me constantly that this isn't
something wrong with you. It's just something that makes you special,
gives you different challenges than other people, but it also
gives you so many strengths. And I've seen how these
strengths have given me so much in my life, my drive,
(32:00):
my intensity, but like, yeah, I have these other challenges
that make my life a little more complicated, but I
wouldn't trade that. My parents wouldn't trade that. It's made
me who I am. And I'm so thankful for them
always believing in me, Like they're just the biggest support
in everything that I do.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Something that you said, Like I want to go go
back and ask a question, but first say so, we
have a two year old and a four year old,
and like everything that I have read and watched and
educated myself on you about is that like can't doesn't
seem to exist in your vocabulary, and that is like
we truly Like when my son says I can't do something,
I'm like, you're not allowed to say that word. And
(32:48):
I think sometimes in life we get so caught up
on like like PPW and I'm going to prove this
person wrong. And when I hear you speak and I
watch what you do, it doesn't it does scene like,
oh I'm going to prove them wrong. I'm going to
show them. It's it's more like I'm going to do
this for me, right, Like I want to exceed my
own expectation. And that's if you can even answer that,
(33:09):
like where does that come from? I'm just curious because
that's a remarkable trait and you don't see it often.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
Thank you, thank you. I mean it's for me. It's
always just like I want to be the best I
can be in everything that I do, and it's it's
I don't have to be the best, you know, Like
I have to be the best that I can be myself. Yeah,
and that's something that's it's it's knowing like what my
abilities are and believing in myself that I can achieve that,
and like that's that's something that especially as a girl
in like playing a men's sport like I play with boys,
(33:38):
I have to recognize I'm not going to be the
best out there, but I can be the best I
can be and I can play within my game and
do what I can do and like and I have
the most confidence in myself and academics and stuff too.
It's just always like finding those things and be like,
I believe that I can do that, so I'm gonna
do it, and it's yeah, it's I guess it's never
been that. It's like, oh, I want to be better
than that other person, or I want to show somebody
(33:58):
else that I am capable of this. I know what
I can do and I want to prove it to myself.
And even I think like that, I like you're saying
that that like I can't is not part of my
vocabulary because thinking back to watching that fire building challenge,
right that it was like not being like I can't
do this, being like, why can't I do this? Because
I knew that I could. I knew I practice building
(34:18):
a fire every day. I knew how to build a fire.
I was just getting all this pressure in my head,
my own self, building and building and creating this intensity
that I had to let out. And I had an
episode there that once again I needed help and support.
But it wasn't that I can't build a fire, It
was why can't I do it right now? Because I
know that I can? And if I am able to
figure out what's wrong, I can flip it and I.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
Can do it well.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
I think that that part also brings me to one
of my final questions.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
Naturally, having a.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Difficulty with social understanding is not the greatest for a
game of mental deception and all the elements of beyond,
just like the fortitude part of Survivor. But you found
Joe and there was something comfortable in Joe, and then
you shared your story with Joe, and then and then
the challenge that you broke down, like you know, the
one that probably everyone talks to you about every single day,
(35:07):
and you're like, Okay, there's other parts of the show
that you should really get involved in You go from
hiding autism to them just feeling like you could talk
about it. How much did your game change from that
moment to every moment after that? Maybe not like what
did it feel to make Jeff cry?
Speaker 5 (35:22):
But don't. I don't want a cliche question.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I want like, how did how much more free did
you feel after that?
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Yeah, honestly, it was a very like strange switch because also, like,
this is not something that I had talked about a
ton of my life up to this point. Because like,
obviously the people I grew up with they knew I
had autism. My close friends and family like they know,
like people when I tell them, they I have to
be to tell someone for them to know I have autism.
People just don't know that. It's not something that I
just like walk in and be like hey, everybody, I'm
(35:49):
on the spectrum. Like no, like it's it's something that's
I'm not ashamed of, but it just doesn't come up.
And so most people in my life found out that
I had autism by watching me on TV too, which
it's just such a strange thing. Basically at Brown, like
I had very close friends at Georgia Tech that I told,
but at Brown only like two of the guys knew.
It was very like such a strange thing for both
(36:11):
on the island for everyone to find out, and then
knowing that like, oh, like everyone in my life is
going to find out too. So on the island, I
was nervous because I was like, Okay, Like there's been
times where I've had these episodes, Like I used to
do cross country and I would get very overwhelmed in races,
and at the end of the race, I'd finish the
race and I'd start screaming and people would look at
me like I was crazy, and They're like, what's wrong
(36:31):
with her? And I couldn't explain, I couldn't verbalize like
I was really going through it, and I felt just
so disgusted about myself then. And this is when I
was in high school and I've grown and learned a
lot about myself and being more comfortable. But the way
that these people looked at me when I talked about
what was going on and explained to them on Survivor
was the complete opposite. Every single person out there looked
at me with so much care and support, and these
(36:52):
tribes who I hadn't met anybody yet, and never spoken
a word to these people and they cared about me,
and it just really showed me. I was like, yo,
I think the world is ready for this kind of thing.
They're ready to hear this because it is important. And
I then going forward when we merged, I met everybody,
like so many Everybody came up to me with different stories,
like connections in their own life, that they have a nephew,
(37:13):
they have a friend, they know this or that, and
like it just it really opened these doors to connect
with people. And by being so vulnerable and open, my
gameplay also was amazing because I created these really tight
relationships type bonds, not just with Joe, I know that's
the biggest key one, Like Joe and I were a
super tight alliance, but I created an extremely tight bond
with Kyle that was shown Kyle is a brother to
(37:36):
me in life now. And I had connections with people
like Mary and David and Shaheen that weren't really shown,
but it was. I opened myself up in this vulnerable
way that other people then were willing to be vulnerable
themselves with me. So it was very very cool how
that shifted. And instead of worrying about like are people
gonna lie to me. It was me being like, how
am I going to protect these people I care about?
Speaker 5 (37:58):
Now?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Yeah, you could kind of feel that with Kyle at
the end, like you feel. I definitely felt like you
missed some stuff with Kyle because at the end when
the fire building challenge kind of happened, he was like,
I am I putting her in the wrong position. And
I think that that, like switching him from his other gameplay,
was clear that you guys had a very tight bond,
and I thought that that was really really beautiful. Well, yeah,
(38:20):
we end every episode with parenting advice.
Speaker 5 (38:22):
I'm not going to ask you that.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
I'm gonna knock on one at twenty four. I hope
you don't have enough kids around children. I don't have
any plans for that soon, no shade, But I'm not
going to ask any parenting advice. I want to ask
you a question that I think is topically relevant for you.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Though.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
The advice I want you to try to impart is
not just for people with autism, but it's for any
person that has a certain limitation or expectation that is.
Speaker 5 (38:49):
Put on them.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
How do you stay motivated to defy Probably some of
the most limiting factors, which is what someone else has
prescribed for you. So what is your best advice, how
can somebody overcome something like that? And what do you
use in your own life that can help you kind
of navigate through some of those limiting expectations.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
My dad would always say to me that there's two
things you can always control in your life. And you
can't control what other people think. You can't control outside
factors of like what everyone else is doing. But there's
two things you can control, and it's your attitude and
your effort. And so I always try to come into
everything I do with a good positive attitude that, like,
you know, I can do whatever I think of, I
believe in myself, Like I know that I can do this,
(39:32):
and I'm gonna regardless of what happens, I'm gonna be
positive about it. And then the second thing is is
your effort. And I always am like I'm gonna give
one hundred and fifty percent everything I do, Like there
is no like going halfway. It's full in. And that's
that's the things that have brought me success and have
made me be able to like live to the fullest
is because this is just such a value that my
My parents were always like, those are the things you
(39:54):
can control, so control them and you'll always be able
to do whatever you want.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Which seems like a simple answer, but in practice is
actually a very difficult thing to do because there's like
you find yourself in situations all the time where it's like, oh, yeah,
I can control what I give and what my attitude is.
But you show up day after day and sometimes the
situation doesn't change or external factors don't change. As a
(40:18):
what I like to consider a high level athlete, I
appreciate that answer because I think it goes understated so
frequently and it is truly so important, and it's the
difference between being good and being great is having the
ability to control that.
Speaker 4 (40:30):
So yeah, no, for sure, especially in sports when it's
like your coach gets to decide your ice time, like
you're not picking your lines, You're just you have to
fill your role. But it's like you can come in
with a good attitude and a good work ethic that's
gonna make all the difference and it will make your
time better and happier too, if you like believe in yourself,
and then it's like, you know what I'm gonna do
the best I can with what I've got.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Yeah, truly, Well, this has been incredible. Honestly, one of
my favorite guests so far. You are truly a remarkable
person doing awesome things, not just for people with autism,
but just truly for kids who have goals and dreams.
As a parent, I appreciate you and thank you for
sharing your story and for showing people that we can
(41:10):
defy the limitations that society puts on us. This has
been an incredible conversation. We are so grateful to you.
And next time you find my badgers out in hockey,
maybe slip them a few calls.
Speaker 4 (41:20):
Hey, Hey, I'm a linesman. I'm off side and icing.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
You can call behind the play, you know.
Speaker 4 (41:27):
Yeah, I'll keep my eye. I'll be counting for those
too many men. All right.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Well, well, thank you for joining us on these packs pluck.
This has been awesome.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
Yeah, this is a lot of fun. Thank you for
having me.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
That's it for this week.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
Thanks for listening, and if you like what you heard,
spread the word seriously right now, take your phone out,
text a friend and tell them to subscribe.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify. If you haven't already, it really really
helps until next week.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
I'm Madison Packer and I'm Anya Packer, and this was
These Puck.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
These Packs Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us
Madison and Anya Packer. Emily Mehernoff is our senior producer
and story editor. We were mixed and mastered by Mary Deo.
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry.
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