June 10, 2025 • 43 mins
We’re back with another edition of hockey romance book club! This week, we’re diving into the hugely popular Game Changers series with the mastermind behind it, Rachel Reid. She explains that her fun, moving, and extremely spicy books were born out of one simple question–what would NHL culture be like if gay players felt free to come out? This is a question Anya and Madison have thought about a lot, and they chat with Rachelabout why it’s so important to have queer representation in men’s hockey. With a TV adaptation of Game Changers on the way, they predict how Rachel’s work might translate to real change sooner than we think.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi everyone, Welcome to these packs puck. I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I are both former
pro hockey players. We met through hockey and fell in love,
and now we're married with two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
These days we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives, between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids and.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
All the messiness in between.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
So buckle the puck up, because there is a lot
to talk about.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Hi, Anya, Hi pack We need to do a pulse check.
How you doing. You've been on the phone all day.
I have been on the phone all day. Honestly, I'm
all right. How you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm good, got all the clothes put away, We're on
the pod.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Let's do it. Gotta workout today. Everyone's happy, Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Leveled up in boxing. Shout out to Vic.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Love that man, well, Vic, good work. Madison. Hit me
with a hockey hot take today, Hockey hot Tay.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I want to switch things up a little bit. We're
gonna talk about the Stanley Cup Finals. I think we're
both picking the same teamait. I'm gonna give my prediction
and then I want to break it down I'm taking
the Panthers in six games, six games, six games.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
See, I want the Panthers to win, and I could
tell you a hundred reasons why. I don't think Connor
McDavid is allowing this series to end anything short of
seven games. I just think his will to win is
so incredibly high. I can't imagine him dropping anything but
(01:41):
a final minute buzzer beater in the seventh game.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I think the Panthers are gonna take one from the
Oilers at home to start.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Then I think the Panthers are gonna win both at home.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
I think the Oilers are gonna win Game five back
at home, and then the Panthers are gonna win it
down in Florida games.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
So yeah, because if they win out through game seven,
it's an oiler.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
You're right, You're right.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well, okay, we just had this conversation Seth Jones as
a hockey player and what he's bringing to the Florida
Panthers after the trade. I think Seth Jones is one
of the most underrated players in the NHL today and
I want nothing more than him to have success. And
Brad Marsham, like, come on, I want Marsha to win.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Will say, I will say I like Marshan now better
as a Panther than I did as a Bruin.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
He's more palatinates. That's just because you don't like the Bruins.
Just say the truth here. But I think I don't know.
The Florida is just a better team.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
They have way more depth in my opinion, the Oilers, obviously,
they have McDavid in dry Sidle. McDavid is once in
a lifetime player. He has the ability, in the current
era of the game to be able to completely change
the trajectory of a game by yourself is unreal, and
he can do that.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
He's done it. He does it all the time. He
goes into end.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
He is unstoppable when he's on fire. I agree with
your take on his will to win. But that Panthers team,
like you literally you turn the TV on. First of all,
every single game they've played this playoffs has been phenomenal entertainment.
I felt that way about the Dallas series as well,
like that the hockey has just been incredible, But that
Panthers locker room, like you feel it when you turn
(03:22):
the TV on. Paul Maurice, the coach, unreal. I think
he's an incredible coach. He's got stats up there with
Scotti Bowman, like he's in great company.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
I just think that that team is unbeatable. It's so
funny because I don't think you're wrong.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I just think that there's the reality that Connor mc
david gets a Cup soon is super high, right, Like,
you don't have a talent like that and not win
a Cup. Then you recognize that that team has you know,
Nugent Hopkins, that's a big pickup. You have Max Jones,
(03:55):
you have.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Dry settled what you already said, right Like Perry's a sleeper.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, yeah, Corey Perry's a sleeper.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
You just have a lot of people that have won,
right Like they've won, They've already done it. They know
what it takes. I'm not saying that Panthers don't have that, yeah,
but I'm saying last year he was not insulated with
the same success, right, the same like year over year
success as he is right now. And I think people
(04:23):
want Connor McDavid to win. Nobody really wants Florida to
win anymore. They're kind of over it right between the
last year.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
No one wants it, wants.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Tampa Bay, Tampa Bay Panthers pant like, we're just we're
kind of over it.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
What we have to overcome here on each side is
totally different.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I'm still going Panthers in six. I think that team
is unbeatable right now. I love that you say that,
because they're going to get beat in this series. It's
not going to be a sweep. Yeah, they're going to
lose a game, but they're not going to lose the cup.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That CoP's going back down to Southwest Florida. I okay,
So on my kind of personal aside, I love the
Florida Panthers for all the reasons that I said, but
there's also a couple be you guys on there. So
I'm happy to watch the Panthers win. I wouldn't be
mad either way, just so we're on the same page.
I don't think I would be mad either way because
(05:09):
I do love the story for McDavid. I don't love
all of his teammates. Read between the lines here. I
think some of his teammates are really bad dudes. But
I'm okay with that story. But I want the Panthers
to win two.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
The Panthers are taking it home. Well, let's see what
happens when the playoffs unfold?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
All right, where are we at today?
Speaker 3 (05:34):
As well? To be there, we just got a whole
bunch of Elf makeup delivered to the house, So I'm amazing.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
I feel so.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Cute as you apply your lip gloss.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
No, I'm so pumped. I think it's so adorable. So
I would say I am probably a ninety nine. I
love getting new makeup. I love being able to play
with that. I love feeling like so beautiful and gorgeous.
And I know I already am. I truly have not
found the right lips shade for myself, and I'm there's
about thirteen here that I get to try.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Oh totally, I feel amazing.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Save one for me, at least I'll save two foot
cherry red well cherry red lip miss pack hair. I'm
up there as well. It's gonna be a good day
for the kids when they get home, huh. I'm like
a ninety seven.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Mom and mom are surging.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Life has been good. I've got some fun, good stuff
going on with work. We have already talked about it
a little bit, but we found a great nanny.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
She's awesome.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
She's driving with the kids, she gets them up, she
gets them out. We're getting some yard work done. I'm
excited for the summer. We got a great day here.
It's like eighty degrees outside. It's we're bumping stupendous out.
It's crazy how the weather affects my Listen, we talked
about seasonal depression, and your girl feels it one hundredfold
because if it's cold and rainy, I am depressed. That
(06:58):
is not like a knock on seasonalion It's a fact
of life. It is sunny and gorgeous, So even if
the day was an eighty, it feels like a ninety five,
which is tremendous.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
So the weather is great and we are full swing
in Fride month. I was just gonna say, it's juo.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Everything's gayer and happier and nicer. Happy Pride everybody. Yes,
So we just talked about men's hockey, now we're talking
about Pride. We have our next guest coming on the show.
We have none other than Rachel Read, an author who's
been recommended probably a million times to us. She will
be joining us to talk about another book in our Sexy,
(07:37):
Raunchy book Club that we have been kind of digging into,
which I love again, my creative writing major wife, please
write a book about us. But people love her book.
The whole series Game Changers. It's a fantasy of what
if male hockey players were gay, What if they were
coming out, what if they were talking about it, what
if they were comfortable to kind of explore their sexuality
(07:59):
in that way. It's gonna be a TV series, which
I'm dying for.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I love that. I hope it's available in the US.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I hope it's available in the US. I hope it's
available everywhere. And I hope that just being able to
see men and hockey and queerness all together in one
fun picture in realize.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Yeah, it's inclusive, it's not scary. It's not gonna bother anybody.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Like mind your own business people are gay. It's gonna
be okay. Rachel does a tremendous job depicting it, and
then it goes a little goes a little sexy, but
nonetheless we're gonna talk.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Game Changers right after the break. Hi, Rachel, how are you?
Speaker 4 (08:49):
I'm great, how are you good?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Welcome, Welcome to these packs, Puck.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Thanks, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I'm excited to have you. We are just getting into
our hockey romance world. So this is officially the second
installation of our Hockey Romance book Club.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
So welcome.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
We've heard all about your books, They've been highly recommended.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
First, we wanted to introduce you and let you introduce
yourselves to our audience.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
My name is Rachel Reid. I am the author of
the Game Changers hockey romance series for Harlequin, and I
have a couple of standalone books as well, which are
also hockey romance. All of my hockey romance is queer
and most of it's pretty Canadian too, so sounds perfect.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
So you're from Nova Scotia, correct, Yeah, born and raised
and I've read that you're a Montreal Canadians fan.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
I am yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Are you also a Victia fan? Where do we wear women?
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Okay? I just I just bought a sweatshirt?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
So what's your relationship to hockey? Like you obviously write
about hockey your hockey fan. Did you grow up playing or.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
I wish I was a little too early to get
to play hockey because they did not have any girls hockey.
I did get to play for one season and it
was the best best winner in my life. It was
like it was like a fantasy thing. I grew up
on a lake that freezes pretty well in the winter,
so I did okay, you know, and I you know,
(10:12):
I fired pucks against the side of my parents' brick house.
You know, did all the stuff just just in case
an NHL scout came by. I like a teenage girl
to try out. Yeah. I worked really hard on it
for no particular reason, but just a pure love of
the sport. And I'm glad I got to do it
a little bit, just to have that experience.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
That's so fun and naturally it connects right now in
your world of writing, give me the color on writing,
and then how did you get into hockey and romance specifically?
But were you always a writer?
Speaker 4 (10:44):
I'd say, like sort of, always a writer, Like I
always wanted to be writer. My dream as a kid
was to be a hockey writer. If I couldn't play hockey,
I wanted to write about it, be a you know,
a journalist. I wanted to be the first on hockey
Night in Canada. Thankfully, you know, other people have beat
me to that. Yeah, I wrote a lot, but I'd
(11:06):
never really written like a novel before I wrote a
game Changer. Yeah, I just didn't really think I had
it in me, but I had the idea and I
did feel like, well, I know quite a bit about hockey,
so that's a good that's a good setting. And then
it's kind of went from there, Well.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Hockey romance, like this is the new world that we
didn't know existed, right, Like we're just never of our
toe in this water. We have a hockey romance in
our own home, but we never thought people read right like,
we're like, we live this life. Yeah, but explain why
hockey romance for our listeners. I think you know better
from you. But hockey romance is a really big hit
and it's a really big growing segment within the world
(11:46):
and in the stories coming out. So you think there's
a reason for it.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Oh boy, I wish I could explain it. It's baffling
to me too. But like when I wrote Game Changer,
the first book, I knew that there were romances involving hockey,
but I didn't know it was like this genre that
was really growing. And since that book came out, the
genre has just exploded, and I think it's at its
peak right now. Because I had a book come out
(12:10):
in March, and I think that same month there was
like over one hundred hockey romances coming out, which is
pretty crazy. Yeah, that's one niche genre. I've thought about
it a lot, because I do get asked about it
a lot too, like the why of it. I mean,
sports romance has always been popular, but I think hockey
specifically because I think the specific kind of intensity of
(12:32):
the game, the specific kind of violence of the game,
for lack of a better word, but like there's something
about it, especially for people that don't really watch it.
It seems almost like a fantasy sport. And people have
told me that. People have told me that, like football especially,
it might be like a massive part of their life
if they live in the States and it's like totally
(12:55):
the main thing in their town, and you know, they
know a lot about football and that culture, but hockey
is so foreign to them that it's really like pure
escapism for them. It's like they're really like sci fi
or something. I think that's part of the appeal is
a lot of readers don't really have any strong opinions
or knowledge about hockey, so they don't really you know,
they're not getting hung up on things that they think
(13:16):
might be wrong or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
It's just yeah, they can just go into the story
pure enjoyment.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
So yeah, I think all of that helps well.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
And so you you mentioned culture, right, and so I
think it's it's interesting and I want to dig into
a little bit now here. You write predominantly about gay
couples in hockey, right, and gay male couples. It's very
common on the women's side. I'm not going to say
it's not common on the men's side. We don't hear
about it on the men's side, right, and we don't
we don't talk about it. And the culture of hockey
(13:44):
has been, in my opinion, on the men's side, one
that's not particularly welcoming right or inclusive to that community.
And so I think it's really interesting that you just
dove in two feet hockey romance, specifically gay hockey romance.
I mean, that's a big jump to make, and it's
been phenomenally successful.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Yeah, Well, for me, it was a little bit of
balancing out the things I really don't like about men's hockey, specifically,
like the overall culture of it. And I think like,
if you grow up, I mean not just Canada, but
in any place where hockey is like the number one
sport that culture. It bleeds into the way that men
are supposed to be whether or not they play hockey.
(14:23):
It's like that is the blueprint for masculinity in hockey towns,
and it's very rigid and there's not a lot of
room for nonconformity, and that always really kind of bummed
me out about the sport. And also, obviously there's been
lots of examples over the years of homophobia, misogyny, and
(14:45):
all sorts of things coming out of men's hockey and worse.
I think for me as a fan, just I needed
to write something that balanced it a bit for me.
So I had to write something that's like my hope
for men's hockey, simate fantasy of what could happen if
things just like were a little different. So that was
(15:07):
my starting point.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
So we're going to back up for one second for context.
Give us your quick summary, elevator pitch about the series
and paid a picture.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
A little bit. Sure. Yeah, So Game Change was the
first book, and because it was my first book, I'm
going to say it's a pretty basic, straightforward romance except
for some of the subject matter. But it's just the
story of Scott Hunter, who's like the fictional captain of
a fictional not New York Rangers, but New York something
else that in a fictional NHL, who is the biggest
(15:41):
star in the league whatever and all that, but like
is closeted and is terrified of anybody finding out. And
he meets a guy who works at a smoothie shop
and he breaks his scoring slump after medium, so then
he just keeps going back that smoothie shop and they
(16:02):
fall in love. So it's just a cute little just
a cute little romance. And then not to give away
the ending, but it has a happy ending for them,
and then that kind of the events of that book
sort of like the idea is that the game slowly
gets changed over the course of the six book series,
because then you know, other players on other teams see
(16:25):
what Scott does, and then that makes them a little
bit braver and a little bit more confident to go
after what they want. And it just kind of keeps
going down the line until the end of the series,
when you know, I think I try to end in
a place that's a little realistic. It's not like everybody's
gonna celebrate them and they still have backlash and stuff,
(16:47):
but it's still they're quite happy and confident, and they
have support and they have love, and it's a good start.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
It sounds like our love story, Unds the next book
we should chat at biography. No, there was no smoothie shot,
but everything else was pretty well.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I also thought it was interesting too, because this is
a dynamic that exists, right, Like somebody has a reason
to not come out and falls attracted to somebody. So
you have this dichotomy where you're not only hoping to
expose what you know, would love to see change in
men's sports, but you're also dealing with a really heavy,
you know, challenge of dating someone that's not out, Like
(17:26):
you know, I think as queer people, we all have
these experiences where like I love this person, but they
don't love themselves enough, And how do I unpack that?
That's a real thing in queer dynamics. Is you know
that like push and pull? So was that because of
the closeted homophobia that already exists in hockey or was
that just you know, the storyline that you went with.
(17:48):
Is that something that you know from experience you've seen
touched you know kind of had like some kind of
connection to because I thought that.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Was really hard as well.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Yeah, well I certainly thought a lot since, really since
I was a teenager, about how particularly difficult it would
be for men who are hockey players or in other
kinds of sports where it's really hard to be any
different from anyone else, but also where usually the overall
culture is quite homophobic. In the nineties, I watched a
(18:21):
lot of hockey and there would be players in the
NHL that like would have these like kind of weird
this before the Internet, but like people would have these
rumors that would spread like wildfire, that that players gay.
And I'm not going to name the players names, but
like they was just like it was almost like common
like urban legend, Like I don't even know how it spread,
(18:42):
probably no truth to it at all, but it got
me thinking a lot as a teenager about like, well,
what if that was true? Like what if that was true?
And or it might not be them that is true for,
but it's probably somebody, And just how vicious and mean
and relentless all the jokes were. And I also got
very interested in reading usually anonymous kind of interviews or
(19:04):
first hand accounts from athletes who were closeted and what
it was like. And I think it's just something that's
always kind of been on my mind as I continue
to watch sports, just like knowing that that culture could
be something it could be really really crushing too certain people.
(19:25):
I think I just wanted to try to get some
of those thoughts on paper.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
So when you do all the research for the story, right,
there's naturally like pro sports stories and pro hockey that
you're looking into, and you know, kind of creating these
archetypes and all of these elements of this very complex dynamic. Right,
were there a misconception or something unexpected when you're doing
all that research that kind of came to light that
reframed any parts of the characters or the narrative, or
(19:53):
maybe even the resolution of the storyline.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Yeah, I think I probably went into it thinking it
was going to be maybe easier to just tell like
a simple love story with a big, happy ending. I
actually didn't plan for it to be a series. It
was really just gonna be game changer at the end,
and then maybe I'd write a different book about something else.
But I just kept it's like, you know, the story
(20:17):
wasn't done because I just thought like, well, what about
the guys who see Scott coming out and being you know,
kind of being brave enough to be himself, Like, how
would that affect another player in the league. So it
just kind of kept going and so I think like
just doing that was I took myself on a long
(20:39):
journey that I wasn't expecting to go on, and you know,
it made me think about, you know, different types of players.
And then mental health became a big part of the
series as well, because that was like the other big
component I wanted to talk about because it's another thing
that I'm gonna say men's hockey doesn't address particularly well
most of the time. Although I think they've made some improvements,
(21:02):
it's still not great. So I wanted to get into
that as well. So, yeah, I did a lot of
research about mental health and athletes, especially team sport athletes,
and that definitely took me to some surprising stories, some
really sad stories, but also some really hopeful ones too.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
That's not lost on me.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
The nuance that we always look at within men's sports
is that there are gay players in the league. To
this day, in the NHL active rostered there's about eleven
hundred athletes that zero of them are gay is incorrect. Right,
Then you know, you continue the next nuance of it's
a team sport, right, nobody really wants to be so
(21:46):
outside of themselves and attracts so much attention when it's
their team and their job.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
So like there's another nuance, like there are all these
nuances within men's sports that create a disproportionate amount of
barriers for people to be anything they wanted. But when
you put it in the context of a story, that
then is just you know, a man that starts in
a scoring slump meets somebody has that kind of like
feeling and then starts to look feel and play better
(22:12):
like and be better right like. And I think that
that was a pervasive theme, is that there is now
joy and sometimes queer joy is the joy that you
were looking for. How important was it for you to
continue that and be okay with letting that joy come
through the book as well?
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Yeah, it's for me. It was really important that joy
was the goal. That these books addressed serious, heavy issues
but kept it, you know, a bit light anyway. There's
some certainly some parts of all of the books that
get pretty heavy, but Ultimately, my goal was to show
joy and make these books be something that made people
feel better and feel and smile, much like you know
(22:50):
what happens to the characters in them.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
The correlation between sexuality and mental health is massive, and
like professional athletes are not immune to that. I just
think it's so interesting the amount of investment that we're
willing to put in all these areas of performance, but
then do we talk specifically about mental health. It is
the hardest part of the job period. I mean, when
you're yourself, you're just better. So imagine how much better
those athletes would be if they felt like they had
(23:15):
access to resources to help them work through it now,
And how unfortunate it is that they have to sit
there and suffer in silence because also no closetive guy
is going to the team doc and being like, oh,
I need to talk about my feelings, really talk about this,
but they're just dying inside. So within the book we've
talked about all these things. Mental health and sexuality are
hot button topics in the hockey world. So how has
(23:37):
it been received by the hockey community by the general population.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
I mean, the overall reception of the books has been
much bigger than I ever could have possibly imagined. So
I mean, I'm very grateful for that. I wouldn't say
I've heard a lot from the wacky world. That might
change because they're making a television series based on the books,
and I feel like that might get the attention of
the hockey world because it's going to be it's gonna Yeah,
(24:04):
I'm interested to see where that goes.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
That's amazing. Congratulations, that's awesome.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
That's all I can say about it right now.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
You're like, I can't say it more.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
That's all I can say. Yeah, I am one of
the things. The first things that pop in my head
when I found out that it was going to happen
was imagine it like on like like an NHL broadcast
when they have to sometimes they'll do a little plug
for a TV show real.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Quick, like it should be this one.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
And I really want to hear one of the guys
having to describe this show in like ten seconds, just
while waiting for the hockey thing.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I mean, I don't think that it's crazy that the
hockey world has kind of kept this at a bit
of a distance because hockey people, more generally speaking, I
think we like to be behind our helmet. I think
hockey people don't like the exposure. And this is such
an exposing book, so kind of like when you when
you went this full level of spice, Like you know,
(25:00):
we always like rate things off of how many pictures
of you know, the peppers there are.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
This is like a five pepper book.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
So so did you did you think.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I've heard?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Does that make it make more sense why the hockey
world hasn't reacted so much to it?
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Yeah, I mean my dad's friends with some former NHL
players and stuff, and you know some of them have
read it or or told me that they read it,
and that kind of like I mean, at first I
was like, oh my god, no, no, I actually I
think it's nice, you know, Like I'm like, good, maybe
(25:36):
maybe you learned something.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Like could exposure therapy.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
I like exposure therapy. Yeah, I'm like, but you know what,
now I want every team to have a book club
with it, Like I think it would be nice.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
But ship, I know many of those locker rooms that
I would die for them, Yeah, like I.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Don't on the wall.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
Maybe they'll binch the show that would that would be fine.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
That works too. I think a lot of instances.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
There's like main characters of the books and when they
kind of go through that accepting journey, like the good
parts of it feel so good that like the spicy
parts are like just can be like raunchy, fun, ridiculous,
Like I like, you know you've said you kind of
just like lose your head in it. But I would
imagine the reception is really great in the queer community,
and then the romance novel community also probably really great.
(26:22):
It's just that third wall we need to break down,
write and get hockey people to start thinking like, yeah, smut,
I will.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Say, just.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
Every single players like it's in like the bag at
like what like the combat pa bags. Yeah. I have
gotten emails from men who played hockey and told me
that the books really really spoke to them because it
was their experience like being closeted playing hockey, and those
(26:55):
notes are really nice to get, Like I mean, it's
sad to get, but it's also really nice to know
that you know, they felt seen a little.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Bit so a little maybe more open community. Have you
ever considered writing a book or a series set in
a women's hockey league.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
I have thought about it. There are some really good
ones coming out. You know, there's there's quite a few,
and I think it's definitely a growing genre as well,
and I hope to see a lot more. But yeah,
I think I think that'd be fun too. I love the,
like I guess, just the difference between being a pro
(27:33):
women's hockey player versus being like, say, an NHL player,
Like I would love to explore the kind of like, yeah,
the the unfairness of the difference between those two things.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
A whole at is episode.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
This is our quest. We're on a quest for sapphic
women's like hockey romance novels.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Not that we don't love reading queer like men's romance novels.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
It's just Madison and I.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Were like reading, giggling, like, oh my gosh, I've never
thought about this.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
He right, like that so silly.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
I mostly write about the men because I just find
men fascinating in general, just the again, it's the repressed emotions,
it's the unwillingness to deal with mental health. It's like
all the toxic masculinity. All of that. I just love
to explore. It makes me feel better to try to
fix it myself.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
I'm gonna kind of like switch gears here because not
only do we talk about all things hockey, but we
talk about all things mommy. You have kids, How is
it being a romance novelist whilst having kids, and how
do you navigate?
Speaker 4 (28:49):
I don't know if i'd be one if I didn't
have kids, because I wrote the first book on my
iPad and the dark while sitting on their beds when
they were really little, and they wouldn't go to sleep
unless I sat in their bed until they're fully one
hundred percent of sleep, and if I left the room
before that happened, then we'd have to start all over again,
so it would be like hours. So I would just
(29:09):
sit in the dark with my iPad and I would
write that first book, and then when it was done,
I decided to give it a shot with publishers. But
since then it was almost a solid decade of being
on a deadline, which I know was hard for my kids,
for my husband, for everyone around me probably. So it's
like it's it's an incredible amount of time that goes
(29:31):
into it. I have learned now after doing this for
a few years, that it's okay to take a break,
that it's okay to ask for more time, and to
slow down. So that's what I've done, and that's helped
a lot. My kids now are at an age, you know.
My oldest is now fifteen, my youngest is eleven, and
(29:51):
I think they're really proud of me. It's nice. They're
really happy. They obviously haven't read these books, but like
they're really excited about Okay, crack them. Yeah, they have
not read them. But they do make fun of me
a lot for them, but not not in a mean way,
just like they keep pitching me ideas that they know
are ridiculous. They really like that these books. They're like
(30:14):
seeing them in bookstores things like that. They get a site.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
That's got to be cool.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Yeah, it is cool. It's definitely something I didn't think
what ever happened and it is very cool. But yeah,
it's you know, it's kids are tricky to fit into
any kind of life with a job and everything. But yeah,
I do have a full time job on top of
them writing and.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
How do you do that?
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Like how do you and your husband balance? And partly
on and I talk all the time. We do like
a check in every episode like where are we at?
And we do it at home all the time too,
Like how do you balance that being a mom, which
is a full time job, having a full time job
writing these books, your husband working, Like, how do you
balance the parenting? How do you balance the workload the partnership.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
For us, eventually, as the books got more, you know,
it became more of a job. My husband, Matt, who
is great, kind of took over the more of the
house and the parenting and that stuff. So he's like
a little bit of a house husband at this point.
Like he does some freelance work, but he takes care
(31:20):
of a lot of that side of stuff, which is
really helpful for me because there was a point where
I was still trying to do it all because that's
what you're supposed to do when you're in the mom
But I mean, yeah, he's a very good, very good
partner and very proud of me as well. I think
it's been a good influence on our kids too, just
because I think knowing that I write these books, that
(31:42):
these are issues that I care about, has made my
kids very very aware of any kind of homophobia that
they see anywhere and are quick to call it out
and have been for a long time. And I really
really appreciate that. And yeah, just really they seem like
(32:03):
really good, really good kids. When it comes to being
tolerant of others, and not just tolerant, but like wildly
supportive of others.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Well, I'll deny it, if ast but it's because you're Canadian.
Canadians are just nicer, you know.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Well I've had.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Some real crappy Canadians.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, but I want to call to attention. In your
official bio, it says she has two boring degrees and
two interesting kids, which I think and I both read
it and you're like, oh my god, I love that.
But it's also just a sentence that shines through. One
is a proud mom, but two is a mom who
just gets it. It's like your perspective completely shifts, right,
(32:39):
so does your identity. So how has that been, because
like you go from being mom now you're writing these books,
now you're back to that. Like how difficult has that been?
And what has it been like to kind of find
yourself as a mom as a writer through this whole journey.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
You're actually asking me the perfect week because I just
I just spent a few days in Toronto being I'm
just going to say treated like a queen. Like I
went like a Romance con. I went to like the
Harlequin offices. I got taken out to lunch by like
the buyer for Indigo, which is like the Barnes and
Noble of Canada. It's like all this stuff, and I
like visited the television set and it's like all like
(33:15):
so it was just like like a wild kind of
like rock Star week, and then I came home to
the kids and the chores and the day job and everything.
I don't know, it's all just been weird. It's like
our lives have changed, like in some ways, not at all,
but in other ways, it's like this this weird background
thing at all times where like the kids know there's
(33:37):
a lot of people who really like the books I've written,
and you know, they know that people sometimes are very
excited to meet me or things like that, which seems
really strange to them, and it seems really strange to
me too. But it's like just a thing that's different
in our lives.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Now you've seen the success of the book and now
the TV show is happening. It give you hope and
make you feel like the culture of hockey can change.
I don't know, Like honestly, when I wrote you could
be honest. When I wrote, I was like, oh, well,
you know what, because you know, publishing slow. So it's
like I wrote the first book, sent it off, and
it was going to be published like a like a
(34:16):
year later, you know, so I thought, you know what,
by then, probably they'll be an out NHL player because
I'm stupid, Like no, of course it's not. And like
and now it's like ten years later almost, and and
now they won't let them more and now they yeah,
now that it's actually worse. So, like the jersey thing
(34:36):
really bums me out.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I hate it, Like I don't all of it.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
We've talked about this so many times before, but I
do not understand, Like, first of all, I just don't understand.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Why do you care? Yeah, why do you like, why
do we care at all?
Speaker 4 (34:49):
Like I actually money because they're still making the jerseys. Yeah,
and you're excluding like your highest buying audience, like two
male households are two male head of household.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Like, but but it's true you won't put a jersey on. Why?
Like I think that the disconnect for these players.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
Is because three players didn't want to.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, Megan Dugan said it best. It's impossible to understand
inclusion if you've never been excluded, you've never had to
walk into a room and justify your right to be married, exist,
be a parent, whatever. And when you don't put the
jersey on, you send a message to kids at home
or these other other communities of people who are already
being targeted, who are always already killing themselves at a
(35:32):
crazy rate, that you are not safe in my building
because I don't support your life. Like what like, no
one's asking you to marry a man, No one's asking
you to kiss itt center right, like get marry man.
They're just asking you to put a jersey on and
say that you are welcome for the day in my arena,
and you deserve to feel safe in that space. That's
the craziest part is that these athletes, it is that simple.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Yeah, it's crazy. Thought that they won't do that is like, well,
we're not really making a lot of progress here because while.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
The book see, I think if the books can be successful,
we can make it happen.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Again perually put them in the welcome kits.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I think the series is going to be a really
foundational too. Right when the series came to you, what
was your sentiment like what was your hope with that?
Is it the same thing that we've been kind of Yeah, I.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
Mean, honestly, it was well obviously thrilled, but I also
was and I'm still nervous. I'm nervous for the backlash
because I know, I know it's going to be dismissed
as the gay hockey show in Canada. Like I can
see it. I see people just making it a punchline,
you know, and I'm expecting it, embracing for it. But
(36:43):
you know, I'm trying not to worry about that too
much because I shouldn't really care what people like that think,
because the important thing is that it might really speak
to a lot of other people, and it might also
make them think about something that they haven't thought about before,
which is ultimately my goal, and hopefully change the way
that they think about things. The television series is going
(37:05):
to largely focus on the second book, Heat of Rivalry,
and I hope the story. I don't know, I hope
the story just if people are willing to watch it,
I hope it. Yeah, makes some a little more open
minded or not even open minded. That's such a low bar.
I don't even know.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I'm kidding that the bars on the floor.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Bars on the floor. I just want them to like, yeah,
just learn and think growing critically.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I mean, I think the more we can say that
the actions that we take are to do good. And
I think it's very clear after speaking with you that
that your actions are to really shine a light where
people are uncomfortable and not uncomfortable because they should be
uncomfortable because it's the culture that we're stuck in. So
you know, I applaud you for that. I hope it's
(37:51):
not just dismissed as the gay hockey show, and hopefully
we can get the right amount of intensity behind it
because women's hockey is very regularly dismissed as like gay
hockey dykes and like, And I think that that's such
a misconception of like what women who like women are
and represent, and I think men who like men don't
(38:11):
represent a very weak and small man. These are norms
that we have to break down.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
So we're we're we're doing the work.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
And I think the more things like this come out
and the more kind of constructs that we're comfortable to show, right,
like we always say like the you won't be it
unless you see it concept and that's typically for things
that are good, and there's nothing wrong with being a.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
Gay male athlete.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
So hopefully we can continue to ide eight ways that
men can feel more comfortable to be themselves.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Yeah, poor men, these poor men.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
These poor men. I don't say that very often but to.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Me either, but I do feel that way right now.
I do crazy.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
It's like the one thing that makes me very sad
for men.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
I fully fully agree, everything else get away from me,
but this one I'm give them their flowers. The stinks
and I think now you know for all the reasons
that you said, it's like the mental health is so poor,
the self reflection and the identity is so poor. The
comfortability to just lean into joy so poor. So we'll
pray for men.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
Today, Yes, but only today.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Poor one out for the men.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
So we've talked a lot today about your book, your work,
your career, your kids, and we want to continue highlighting
all of that. We finish every episode with a question,
usually a parenting question. Yours is a little bit different
because I think that your journey is very unique. So,
as a mom, with this last question, what advice do
you have for working moms who are chasing their passions?
(39:42):
While also continuing to enable their littles to pursue their dreams.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
I think it's important for moms to remember that their
kids are going to be happier and have a better
relationship with them if you're happy, like your happiness is
so important to the happiness of your children. And that
(40:08):
was something I figured out pretty early on with my kids.
And I was determined to be not only happy, but
like interesting and fulfilled in ways beyond my kids. Because
if I really made my kids the number one thing
that took that was like, you know, taking up all
(40:29):
of my time, then eventually they're going to age out
of that. Then where am I going to be? Like,
I needed to make sure I had a creative output.
I needed to make sure that I was making myself
happy and I was. I was doing something that I
hope they'd be proud of someday. So I think that
it's important for moms to to find the time to
(40:51):
do that. If you're a creative person at all, then
find the time to be creative. If you're a super
social person, then find the time to do that. Don't
give those things up because it's not it's not going
to work out well in the long run.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
I love that answer.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Everything that you just said is what I'm currently going
through because I transition from athlete to stay at home
mom and I'm slowly learning that lesson. So I love
that you gave that advice because it is truly spot on.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
Yeah, stay interesting.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
I was going to say, a fulfilled mom is a
good mom. The sacrifices you make to be a good
and fulfilled person can actually make you a better mom.
And so thank you for that. Thank you for joining us,
thank you for talking about all the things. We are
so excited about, the progress. We're so excited about continuing
to dive deeper into the world of hockey romance. Is
(41:38):
there anything that we should be looking out for, any
books that we should add to the reading.
Speaker 4 (41:42):
Log I always recommend a book because it's it's a
little under the radar, that's it's about beer League hockey. Yeah,
it's a gay romance between two men, but it's really
sweet and it's called Hockey Boys. But it's bo I
S And it's by al Herd hga R. And I
just that's one of my favorite hockey romances. I just
(42:04):
I like that it's beer League. I like that it's
just I don't know, it's just really sweet and it's
kind of a slow burn and yeah, I really do
enjoy that one. So and I just like it. Yeah,
because it's different, it's perfect, not pro.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Well, we love it.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
And I think Maddie and I can really attest to
our beer league love as well. So thank you for
joining us. Thank you for talking all things momming. It
gets giving. It's giving like Shonda Land meets hockey meets
queer representation, and it's very much appreciated by us. And
I think the the you know, the real thematic pieces
that we believe really strongly in and change culture and
(42:42):
talking about mental health, those are all really pervasive throughout
all the things that you've said. So thank you very
much for being a champion for good in the hockey community.
And we are so excited to start watching the show
when it comes out.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
Okay, well, thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
That's it for this week.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
Thanks for listening, and.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
If you like what you heard, spread the word seriously
right now, take your phone out, text a friend and
tell them to subscribe.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify if you haven't already. It really really
helps until next week. I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
And I'm Aya Packer, and this was These Packs Puck.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
These Packs Puck is a production of Iheartwomen's Sports and
Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us Madison
and Anya Packer. Emily Meronoff is our senior producer and
story editor. We were mixed and mastered by Mary Doo.
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry.
Hi everyone, Welcome to these packs puck. I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I are both former
pro hockey players. We met through hockey and fell in love,
and now we're married with two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
These days we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives, between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids and.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
All the messiness in between.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
So buckle the puck up, because there is a lot
to talk about.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Hi, Anya, Hi pack We need to do a pulse check.
How you doing. You've been on the phone all day.
I have been on the phone all day. Honestly, I'm
all right. How you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm good, got all the clothes put away, We're on
the pod.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Let's do it. Gotta workout today. Everyone's happy, Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Leveled up in boxing. Shout out to Vic.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Love that man, well, Vic, good work. Madison. Hit me
with a hockey hot take today, Hockey hot Tay.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I want to switch things up a little bit. We're
gonna talk about the Stanley Cup Finals. I think we're
both picking the same teamait. I'm gonna give my prediction
and then I want to break it down I'm taking
the Panthers in six games, six games, six games.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
See, I want the Panthers to win, and I could
tell you a hundred reasons why. I don't think Connor
McDavid is allowing this series to end anything short of
seven games. I just think his will to win is
so incredibly high. I can't imagine him dropping anything but
(01:41):
a final minute buzzer beater in the seventh game.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
I think the Panthers are gonna take one from the
Oilers at home to start.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Then I think the Panthers are gonna win both at home.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
I think the Oilers are gonna win Game five back
at home, and then the Panthers are gonna win it
down in Florida games.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
So yeah, because if they win out through game seven,
it's an oiler.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
You're right, You're right.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well, okay, we just had this conversation Seth Jones as
a hockey player and what he's bringing to the Florida
Panthers after the trade. I think Seth Jones is one
of the most underrated players in the NHL today and
I want nothing more than him to have success. And
Brad Marsham, like, come on, I want Marsha to win.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Will say, I will say I like Marshan now better
as a Panther than I did as a Bruin.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
He's more palatinates. That's just because you don't like the Bruins.
Just say the truth here. But I think I don't know.
The Florida is just a better team.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
They have way more depth in my opinion, the Oilers, obviously,
they have McDavid in dry Sidle. McDavid is once in
a lifetime player. He has the ability, in the current
era of the game to be able to completely change
the trajectory of a game by yourself is unreal, and
he can do that.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
He's done it. He does it all the time. He
goes into end.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
He is unstoppable when he's on fire. I agree with
your take on his will to win. But that Panthers team,
like you literally you turn the TV on. First of all,
every single game they've played this playoffs has been phenomenal entertainment.
I felt that way about the Dallas series as well,
like that the hockey has just been incredible, But that
Panthers locker room, like you feel it when you turn
(03:22):
the TV on. Paul Maurice, the coach, unreal. I think
he's an incredible coach. He's got stats up there with
Scotti Bowman, like he's in great company.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
I just think that that team is unbeatable. It's so
funny because I don't think you're wrong.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I just think that there's the reality that Connor mc
david gets a Cup soon is super high, right, Like,
you don't have a talent like that and not win
a Cup. Then you recognize that that team has you know,
Nugent Hopkins, that's a big pickup. You have Max Jones,
(03:55):
you have.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Dry settled what you already said, right Like Perry's a sleeper.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, yeah, Corey Perry's a sleeper.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
You just have a lot of people that have won,
right Like they've won, They've already done it. They know
what it takes. I'm not saying that Panthers don't have that, yeah,
but I'm saying last year he was not insulated with
the same success, right, the same like year over year
success as he is right now. And I think people
(04:23):
want Connor McDavid to win. Nobody really wants Florida to
win anymore. They're kind of over it right between the
last year.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
No one wants it, wants.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Tampa Bay, Tampa Bay Panthers pant like, we're just we're
kind of over it.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
What we have to overcome here on each side is
totally different.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I'm still going Panthers in six. I think that team
is unbeatable right now. I love that you say that,
because they're going to get beat in this series. It's
not going to be a sweep. Yeah, they're going to
lose a game, but they're not going to lose the cup.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
That CoP's going back down to Southwest Florida. I okay,
So on my kind of personal aside, I love the
Florida Panthers for all the reasons that I said, but
there's also a couple be you guys on there. So
I'm happy to watch the Panthers win. I wouldn't be
mad either way, just so we're on the same page.
I don't think I would be mad either way because
(05:09):
I do love the story for McDavid. I don't love
all of his teammates. Read between the lines here. I
think some of his teammates are really bad dudes. But
I'm okay with that story. But I want the Panthers
to win two.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
The Panthers are taking it home. Well, let's see what
happens when the playoffs unfold?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
All right, where are we at today?
Speaker 3 (05:34):
As well? To be there, we just got a whole
bunch of Elf makeup delivered to the house, So I'm amazing.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
I feel so.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Cute as you apply your lip gloss.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
No, I'm so pumped. I think it's so adorable. So
I would say I am probably a ninety nine. I
love getting new makeup. I love being able to play
with that. I love feeling like so beautiful and gorgeous.
And I know I already am. I truly have not
found the right lips shade for myself, and I'm there's
about thirteen here that I get to try.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Oh totally, I feel amazing.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Save one for me, at least I'll save two foot
cherry red well cherry red lip miss pack hair. I'm
up there as well. It's gonna be a good day
for the kids when they get home, huh. I'm like
a ninety seven.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Mom and mom are surging.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Life has been good. I've got some fun, good stuff
going on with work. We have already talked about it
a little bit, but we found a great nanny.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
She's awesome.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
She's driving with the kids, she gets them up, she
gets them out. We're getting some yard work done. I'm
excited for the summer. We got a great day here.
It's like eighty degrees outside. It's we're bumping stupendous out.
It's crazy how the weather affects my Listen, we talked
about seasonal depression, and your girl feels it one hundredfold
because if it's cold and rainy, I am depressed. That
(06:58):
is not like a knock on seasonalion It's a fact
of life. It is sunny and gorgeous, So even if
the day was an eighty, it feels like a ninety five,
which is tremendous.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
So the weather is great and we are full swing
in Fride month. I was just gonna say, it's juo.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Everything's gayer and happier and nicer. Happy Pride everybody. Yes,
So we just talked about men's hockey, now we're talking
about Pride. We have our next guest coming on the show.
We have none other than Rachel Read, an author who's
been recommended probably a million times to us. She will
be joining us to talk about another book in our Sexy,
(07:37):
Raunchy book Club that we have been kind of digging into,
which I love again, my creative writing major wife, please
write a book about us. But people love her book.
The whole series Game Changers. It's a fantasy of what
if male hockey players were gay, What if they were
coming out, what if they were talking about it, what
if they were comfortable to kind of explore their sexuality
(07:59):
in that way. It's gonna be a TV series, which
I'm dying for.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I love that. I hope it's available in the US.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I hope it's available in the US. I hope it's
available everywhere. And I hope that just being able to
see men and hockey and queerness all together in one
fun picture in realize.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Yeah, it's inclusive, it's not scary. It's not gonna bother anybody.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Like mind your own business people are gay. It's gonna
be okay. Rachel does a tremendous job depicting it, and
then it goes a little goes a little sexy, but
nonetheless we're gonna talk.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Game Changers right after the break. Hi, Rachel, how are you?
Speaker 4 (08:49):
I'm great, how are you good?
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Welcome, Welcome to these packs, Puck.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Thanks, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I'm excited to have you. We are just getting into
our hockey romance world. So this is officially the second
installation of our Hockey Romance book Club.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
So welcome.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
We've heard all about your books, They've been highly recommended.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
First, we wanted to introduce you and let you introduce
yourselves to our audience.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
My name is Rachel Reid. I am the author of
the Game Changers hockey romance series for Harlequin, and I
have a couple of standalone books as well, which are
also hockey romance. All of my hockey romance is queer
and most of it's pretty Canadian too, so sounds perfect.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
So you're from Nova Scotia, correct, Yeah, born and raised
and I've read that you're a Montreal Canadians fan.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
I am yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
Are you also a Victia fan? Where do we wear women?
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Okay? I just I just bought a sweatshirt?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
So what's your relationship to hockey? Like you obviously write
about hockey your hockey fan. Did you grow up playing or.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
I wish I was a little too early to get
to play hockey because they did not have any girls hockey.
I did get to play for one season and it
was the best best winner in my life. It was
like it was like a fantasy thing. I grew up
on a lake that freezes pretty well in the winter,
so I did okay, you know, and I you know,
(10:12):
I fired pucks against the side of my parents' brick house.
You know, did all the stuff just just in case
an NHL scout came by. I like a teenage girl
to try out. Yeah. I worked really hard on it
for no particular reason, but just a pure love of
the sport. And I'm glad I got to do it
a little bit, just to have that experience.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
That's so fun and naturally it connects right now in
your world of writing, give me the color on writing,
and then how did you get into hockey and romance specifically?
But were you always a writer?
Speaker 4 (10:44):
I'd say, like sort of, always a writer, Like I
always wanted to be writer. My dream as a kid
was to be a hockey writer. If I couldn't play hockey,
I wanted to write about it, be a you know,
a journalist. I wanted to be the first on hockey
Night in Canada. Thankfully, you know, other people have beat
me to that. Yeah, I wrote a lot, but I'd
(11:06):
never really written like a novel before I wrote a
game Changer. Yeah, I just didn't really think I had
it in me, but I had the idea and I
did feel like, well, I know quite a bit about hockey,
so that's a good that's a good setting. And then
it's kind of went from there, Well.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Hockey romance, like this is the new world that we
didn't know existed, right, Like we're just never of our
toe in this water. We have a hockey romance in
our own home, but we never thought people read right like,
we're like, we live this life. Yeah, but explain why
hockey romance for our listeners. I think you know better
from you. But hockey romance is a really big hit
and it's a really big growing segment within the world
(11:46):
and in the stories coming out. So you think there's
a reason for it.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Oh boy, I wish I could explain it. It's baffling
to me too. But like when I wrote Game Changer,
the first book, I knew that there were romances involving hockey,
but I didn't know it was like this genre that
was really growing. And since that book came out, the
genre has just exploded, and I think it's at its
peak right now. Because I had a book come out
(12:10):
in March, and I think that same month there was
like over one hundred hockey romances coming out, which is
pretty crazy. Yeah, that's one niche genre. I've thought about
it a lot, because I do get asked about it
a lot too, like the why of it. I mean,
sports romance has always been popular, but I think hockey
specifically because I think the specific kind of intensity of
(12:32):
the game, the specific kind of violence of the game,
for lack of a better word, but like there's something
about it, especially for people that don't really watch it.
It seems almost like a fantasy sport. And people have
told me that. People have told me that, like football especially,
it might be like a massive part of their life
if they live in the States and it's like totally
(12:55):
the main thing in their town, and you know, they
know a lot about football and that culture, but hockey
is so foreign to them that it's really like pure
escapism for them. It's like they're really like sci fi
or something. I think that's part of the appeal is
a lot of readers don't really have any strong opinions
or knowledge about hockey, so they don't really you know,
they're not getting hung up on things that they think
(13:16):
might be wrong or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
It's just yeah, they can just go into the story
pure enjoyment.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
So yeah, I think all of that helps well.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
And so you you mentioned culture, right, and so I
think it's it's interesting and I want to dig into
a little bit now here. You write predominantly about gay
couples in hockey, right, and gay male couples. It's very
common on the women's side. I'm not going to say
it's not common on the men's side. We don't hear
about it on the men's side, right, and we don't
we don't talk about it. And the culture of hockey
(13:44):
has been, in my opinion, on the men's side, one
that's not particularly welcoming right or inclusive to that community.
And so I think it's really interesting that you just
dove in two feet hockey romance, specifically gay hockey romance.
I mean, that's a big jump to make, and it's
been phenomenally successful.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Yeah, Well, for me, it was a little bit of
balancing out the things I really don't like about men's hockey, specifically,
like the overall culture of it. And I think like,
if you grow up, I mean not just Canada, but
in any place where hockey is like the number one
sport that culture. It bleeds into the way that men
are supposed to be whether or not they play hockey.
(14:23):
It's like that is the blueprint for masculinity in hockey towns,
and it's very rigid and there's not a lot of
room for nonconformity, and that always really kind of bummed
me out about the sport. And also, obviously there's been
lots of examples over the years of homophobia, misogyny, and
(14:45):
all sorts of things coming out of men's hockey and worse.
I think for me as a fan, just I needed
to write something that balanced it a bit for me.
So I had to write something that's like my hope
for men's hockey, simate fantasy of what could happen if
things just like were a little different. So that was
(15:07):
my starting point.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
So we're going to back up for one second for context.
Give us your quick summary, elevator pitch about the series
and paid a picture.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
A little bit. Sure. Yeah, So Game Change was the
first book, and because it was my first book, I'm
going to say it's a pretty basic, straightforward romance except
for some of the subject matter. But it's just the
story of Scott Hunter, who's like the fictional captain of
a fictional not New York Rangers, but New York something
else that in a fictional NHL, who is the biggest
(15:41):
star in the league whatever and all that, but like
is closeted and is terrified of anybody finding out. And
he meets a guy who works at a smoothie shop
and he breaks his scoring slump after medium, so then
he just keeps going back that smoothie shop and they
(16:02):
fall in love. So it's just a cute little just
a cute little romance. And then not to give away
the ending, but it has a happy ending for them,
and then that kind of the events of that book
sort of like the idea is that the game slowly
gets changed over the course of the six book series,
because then you know, other players on other teams see
(16:25):
what Scott does, and then that makes them a little
bit braver and a little bit more confident to go
after what they want. And it just kind of keeps
going down the line until the end of the series,
when you know, I think I try to end in
a place that's a little realistic. It's not like everybody's
gonna celebrate them and they still have backlash and stuff,
(16:47):
but it's still they're quite happy and confident, and they
have support and they have love, and it's a good start.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
It sounds like our love story, Unds the next book
we should chat at biography. No, there was no smoothie shot,
but everything else was pretty well.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I also thought it was interesting too, because this is
a dynamic that exists, right, Like somebody has a reason
to not come out and falls attracted to somebody. So
you have this dichotomy where you're not only hoping to
expose what you know, would love to see change in
men's sports, but you're also dealing with a really heavy,
you know, challenge of dating someone that's not out, Like
(17:26):
you know, I think as queer people, we all have
these experiences where like I love this person, but they
don't love themselves enough, And how do I unpack that?
That's a real thing in queer dynamics. Is you know
that like push and pull? So was that because of
the closeted homophobia that already exists in hockey or was
that just you know, the storyline that you went with.
(17:48):
Is that something that you know from experience you've seen
touched you know kind of had like some kind of
connection to because I thought that.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Was really hard as well.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Yeah, well I certainly thought a lot since, really since
I was a teenager, about how particularly difficult it would
be for men who are hockey players or in other
kinds of sports where it's really hard to be any
different from anyone else, but also where usually the overall
culture is quite homophobic. In the nineties, I watched a
(18:21):
lot of hockey and there would be players in the
NHL that like would have these like kind of weird
this before the Internet, but like people would have these
rumors that would spread like wildfire, that that players gay.
And I'm not going to name the players names, but
like they was just like it was almost like common
like urban legend, Like I don't even know how it spread,
(18:42):
probably no truth to it at all, but it got
me thinking a lot as a teenager about like, well,
what if that was true? Like what if that was true?
And or it might not be them that is true for,
but it's probably somebody, And just how vicious and mean
and relentless all the jokes were. And I also got
very interested in reading usually anonymous kind of interviews or
(19:04):
first hand accounts from athletes who were closeted and what
it was like. And I think it's just something that's
always kind of been on my mind as I continue
to watch sports, just like knowing that that culture could
be something it could be really really crushing too certain people.
(19:25):
I think I just wanted to try to get some
of those thoughts on paper.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
So when you do all the research for the story, right,
there's naturally like pro sports stories and pro hockey that
you're looking into, and you know, kind of creating these
archetypes and all of these elements of this very complex dynamic. Right,
were there a misconception or something unexpected when you're doing
all that research that kind of came to light that
reframed any parts of the characters or the narrative, or
(19:53):
maybe even the resolution of the storyline.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Yeah, I think I probably went into it thinking it
was going to be maybe easier to just tell like
a simple love story with a big, happy ending. I
actually didn't plan for it to be a series. It
was really just gonna be game changer at the end,
and then maybe I'd write a different book about something else.
But I just kept it's like, you know, the story
(20:17):
wasn't done because I just thought like, well, what about
the guys who see Scott coming out and being you know,
kind of being brave enough to be himself, Like, how
would that affect another player in the league. So it
just kind of kept going and so I think like
just doing that was I took myself on a long
(20:39):
journey that I wasn't expecting to go on, and you know,
it made me think about, you know, different types of players.
And then mental health became a big part of the
series as well, because that was like the other big
component I wanted to talk about because it's another thing
that I'm gonna say men's hockey doesn't address particularly well
most of the time. Although I think they've made some improvements,
(21:02):
it's still not great. So I wanted to get into
that as well. So, yeah, I did a lot of
research about mental health and athletes, especially team sport athletes,
and that definitely took me to some surprising stories, some
really sad stories, but also some really hopeful ones too.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
That's not lost on me.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
The nuance that we always look at within men's sports
is that there are gay players in the league. To
this day, in the NHL active rostered there's about eleven
hundred athletes that zero of them are gay is incorrect. Right,
Then you know, you continue the next nuance of it's
a team sport, right, nobody really wants to be so
(21:46):
outside of themselves and attracts so much attention when it's
their team and their job.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
So like there's another nuance, like there are all these
nuances within men's sports that create a disproportionate amount of
barriers for people to be anything they wanted. But when
you put it in the context of a story, that
then is just you know, a man that starts in
a scoring slump meets somebody has that kind of like
feeling and then starts to look feel and play better
(22:12):
like and be better right like. And I think that
that was a pervasive theme, is that there is now
joy and sometimes queer joy is the joy that you
were looking for. How important was it for you to
continue that and be okay with letting that joy come
through the book as well?
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Yeah, it's for me. It was really important that joy
was the goal. That these books addressed serious, heavy issues
but kept it, you know, a bit light anyway. There's
some certainly some parts of all of the books that
get pretty heavy, but Ultimately, my goal was to show
joy and make these books be something that made people
feel better and feel and smile, much like you know
(22:50):
what happens to the characters in them.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
The correlation between sexuality and mental health is massive, and
like professional athletes are not immune to that. I just
think it's so interesting the amount of investment that we're
willing to put in all these areas of performance, but
then do we talk specifically about mental health. It is
the hardest part of the job period. I mean, when
you're yourself, you're just better. So imagine how much better
those athletes would be if they felt like they had
(23:15):
access to resources to help them work through it now,
And how unfortunate it is that they have to sit
there and suffer in silence because also no closetive guy
is going to the team doc and being like, oh,
I need to talk about my feelings, really talk about this,
but they're just dying inside. So within the book we've
talked about all these things. Mental health and sexuality are
hot button topics in the hockey world. So how has
(23:37):
it been received by the hockey community by the general population.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
I mean, the overall reception of the books has been
much bigger than I ever could have possibly imagined. So
I mean, I'm very grateful for that. I wouldn't say
I've heard a lot from the wacky world. That might
change because they're making a television series based on the books,
and I feel like that might get the attention of
the hockey world because it's going to be it's gonna Yeah,
(24:04):
I'm interested to see where that goes.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
That's amazing. Congratulations, that's awesome.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
That's all I can say about it right now.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
You're like, I can't say it more.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
That's all I can say. Yeah, I am one of
the things. The first things that pop in my head
when I found out that it was going to happen
was imagine it like on like like an NHL broadcast
when they have to sometimes they'll do a little plug
for a TV show real.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Quick, like it should be this one.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
And I really want to hear one of the guys
having to describe this show in like ten seconds, just
while waiting for the hockey thing.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I mean, I don't think that it's crazy that the
hockey world has kind of kept this at a bit
of a distance because hockey people, more generally speaking, I
think we like to be behind our helmet. I think
hockey people don't like the exposure. And this is such
an exposing book, so kind of like when you when
you went this full level of spice, Like you know,
(25:00):
we always like rate things off of how many pictures
of you know, the peppers there are.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
This is like a five pepper book.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
So so did you did you think.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I've heard?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Does that make it make more sense why the hockey
world hasn't reacted so much to it?
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Yeah, I mean my dad's friends with some former NHL
players and stuff, and you know some of them have
read it or or told me that they read it,
and that kind of like I mean, at first I
was like, oh my god, no, no, I actually I
think it's nice, you know, Like I'm like, good, maybe
(25:36):
maybe you learned something.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Like could exposure therapy.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
I like exposure therapy. Yeah, I'm like, but you know what,
now I want every team to have a book club
with it, Like I think it would be nice.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
But ship, I know many of those locker rooms that
I would die for them, Yeah, like I.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Don't on the wall.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
Maybe they'll binch the show that would that would be fine.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
That works too. I think a lot of instances.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
There's like main characters of the books and when they
kind of go through that accepting journey, like the good
parts of it feel so good that like the spicy
parts are like just can be like raunchy, fun, ridiculous,
Like I like, you know you've said you kind of
just like lose your head in it. But I would
imagine the reception is really great in the queer community,
and then the romance novel community also probably really great.
(26:22):
It's just that third wall we need to break down,
write and get hockey people to start thinking like, yeah, smut,
I will.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Say, just.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
Every single players like it's in like the bag at
like what like the combat pa bags. Yeah. I have
gotten emails from men who played hockey and told me
that the books really really spoke to them because it
was their experience like being closeted playing hockey, and those
(26:55):
notes are really nice to get, Like I mean, it's
sad to get, but it's also really nice to know
that you know, they felt seen a little.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Bit so a little maybe more open community. Have you
ever considered writing a book or a series set in
a women's hockey league.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
I have thought about it. There are some really good
ones coming out. You know, there's there's quite a few,
and I think it's definitely a growing genre as well,
and I hope to see a lot more. But yeah,
I think I think that'd be fun too. I love the,
like I guess, just the difference between being a pro
(27:33):
women's hockey player versus being like, say, an NHL player,
Like I would love to explore the kind of like, yeah,
the the unfairness of the difference between those two things.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
A whole at is episode.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
This is our quest. We're on a quest for sapphic
women's like hockey romance novels.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Not that we don't love reading queer like men's romance novels.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
It's just Madison and I.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Were like reading, giggling, like, oh my gosh, I've never
thought about this.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
He right, like that so silly.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
I mostly write about the men because I just find
men fascinating in general, just the again, it's the repressed emotions,
it's the unwillingness to deal with mental health. It's like
all the toxic masculinity. All of that. I just love
to explore. It makes me feel better to try to
fix it myself.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
I'm gonna kind of like switch gears here because not
only do we talk about all things hockey, but we
talk about all things mommy. You have kids, How is
it being a romance novelist whilst having kids, and how
do you navigate?
Speaker 4 (28:49):
I don't know if i'd be one if I didn't
have kids, because I wrote the first book on my
iPad and the dark while sitting on their beds when
they were really little, and they wouldn't go to sleep
unless I sat in their bed until they're fully one
hundred percent of sleep, and if I left the room
before that happened, then we'd have to start all over again,
so it would be like hours. So I would just
(29:09):
sit in the dark with my iPad and I would
write that first book, and then when it was done,
I decided to give it a shot with publishers. But
since then it was almost a solid decade of being
on a deadline, which I know was hard for my kids,
for my husband, for everyone around me probably. So it's
like it's it's an incredible amount of time that goes
(29:31):
into it. I have learned now after doing this for
a few years, that it's okay to take a break,
that it's okay to ask for more time, and to
slow down. So that's what I've done, and that's helped
a lot. My kids now are at an age, you know.
My oldest is now fifteen, my youngest is eleven, and
(29:51):
I think they're really proud of me. It's nice. They're
really happy. They obviously haven't read these books, but like
they're really excited about Okay, crack them. Yeah, they have
not read them. But they do make fun of me
a lot for them, but not not in a mean way,
just like they keep pitching me ideas that they know
are ridiculous. They really like that these books. They're like
(30:14):
seeing them in bookstores things like that. They get a site.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
That's got to be cool.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Yeah, it is cool. It's definitely something I didn't think
what ever happened and it is very cool. But yeah,
it's you know, it's kids are tricky to fit into
any kind of life with a job and everything. But yeah,
I do have a full time job on top of
them writing and.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
How do you do that?
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Like how do you and your husband balance? And partly
on and I talk all the time. We do like
a check in every episode like where are we at?
And we do it at home all the time too,
Like how do you balance that being a mom, which
is a full time job, having a full time job
writing these books, your husband working, Like, how do you
balance the parenting? How do you balance the workload the partnership.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
For us, eventually, as the books got more, you know,
it became more of a job. My husband, Matt, who
is great, kind of took over the more of the
house and the parenting and that stuff. So he's like
a little bit of a house husband at this point.
Like he does some freelance work, but he takes care
(31:20):
of a lot of that side of stuff, which is
really helpful for me because there was a point where
I was still trying to do it all because that's
what you're supposed to do when you're in the mom
But I mean, yeah, he's a very good, very good
partner and very proud of me as well. I think
it's been a good influence on our kids too, just
because I think knowing that I write these books, that
(31:42):
these are issues that I care about, has made my
kids very very aware of any kind of homophobia that
they see anywhere and are quick to call it out
and have been for a long time. And I really
really appreciate that. And yeah, just really they seem like
(32:03):
really good, really good kids. When it comes to being
tolerant of others, and not just tolerant, but like wildly
supportive of others.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Well, I'll deny it, if ast but it's because you're Canadian.
Canadians are just nicer, you know.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Well I've had.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Some real crappy Canadians.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, but I want to call to attention. In your
official bio, it says she has two boring degrees and
two interesting kids, which I think and I both read
it and you're like, oh my god, I love that.
But it's also just a sentence that shines through. One
is a proud mom, but two is a mom who
just gets it. It's like your perspective completely shifts, right,
(32:39):
so does your identity. So how has that been, because
like you go from being mom now you're writing these books,
now you're back to that. Like how difficult has that been?
And what has it been like to kind of find
yourself as a mom as a writer through this whole journey.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
You're actually asking me the perfect week because I just
I just spent a few days in Toronto being I'm
just going to say treated like a queen. Like I
went like a Romance con. I went to like the
Harlequin offices. I got taken out to lunch by like
the buyer for Indigo, which is like the Barnes and
Noble of Canada. It's like all this stuff, and I
like visited the television set and it's like all like
(33:15):
so it was just like like a wild kind of
like rock Star week, and then I came home to
the kids and the chores and the day job and everything.
I don't know, it's all just been weird. It's like
our lives have changed, like in some ways, not at all,
but in other ways, it's like this this weird background
thing at all times where like the kids know there's
(33:37):
a lot of people who really like the books I've written,
and you know, they know that people sometimes are very
excited to meet me or things like that, which seems
really strange to them, and it seems really strange to
me too. But it's like just a thing that's different
in our lives.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Now you've seen the success of the book and now
the TV show is happening. It give you hope and
make you feel like the culture of hockey can change.
I don't know, Like honestly, when I wrote you could
be honest. When I wrote, I was like, oh, well,
you know what, because you know, publishing slow. So it's
like I wrote the first book, sent it off, and
it was going to be published like a like a
(34:16):
year later, you know, so I thought, you know what,
by then, probably they'll be an out NHL player because
I'm stupid, Like no, of course it's not. And like
and now it's like ten years later almost, and and
now they won't let them more and now they yeah,
now that it's actually worse. So, like the jersey thing
(34:36):
really bums me out.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I hate it, Like I don't all of it.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
We've talked about this so many times before, but I
do not understand, Like, first of all, I just don't understand.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Why do you care? Yeah, why do you like, why
do we care at all?
Speaker 4 (34:49):
Like I actually money because they're still making the jerseys. Yeah,
and you're excluding like your highest buying audience, like two
male households are two male head of household.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Like, but but it's true you won't put a jersey on. Why?
Like I think that the disconnect for these players.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
Is because three players didn't want to.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah, Megan Dugan said it best. It's impossible to understand
inclusion if you've never been excluded, you've never had to
walk into a room and justify your right to be married, exist,
be a parent, whatever. And when you don't put the
jersey on, you send a message to kids at home
or these other other communities of people who are already
being targeted, who are always already killing themselves at a
(35:32):
crazy rate, that you are not safe in my building
because I don't support your life. Like what like, no
one's asking you to marry a man, No one's asking
you to kiss itt center right, like get marry man.
They're just asking you to put a jersey on and
say that you are welcome for the day in my arena,
and you deserve to feel safe in that space. That's
the craziest part is that these athletes, it is that simple.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Yeah, it's crazy. Thought that they won't do that is like, well,
we're not really making a lot of progress here because while.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
The book see, I think if the books can be successful,
we can make it happen.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Again perually put them in the welcome kits.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I think the series is going to be a really
foundational too. Right when the series came to you, what
was your sentiment like what was your hope with that?
Is it the same thing that we've been kind of Yeah, I.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
Mean, honestly, it was well obviously thrilled, but I also
was and I'm still nervous. I'm nervous for the backlash
because I know, I know it's going to be dismissed
as the gay hockey show in Canada. Like I can
see it. I see people just making it a punchline,
you know, and I'm expecting it, embracing for it. But
(36:43):
you know, I'm trying not to worry about that too
much because I shouldn't really care what people like that think,
because the important thing is that it might really speak
to a lot of other people, and it might also
make them think about something that they haven't thought about before,
which is ultimately my goal, and hopefully change the way
that they think about things. The television series is going
(37:05):
to largely focus on the second book, Heat of Rivalry,
and I hope the story. I don't know, I hope
the story just if people are willing to watch it,
I hope it. Yeah, makes some a little more open
minded or not even open minded. That's such a low bar.
I don't even know.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
I'm kidding that the bars on the floor.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Bars on the floor. I just want them to like, yeah,
just learn and think growing critically.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I mean, I think the more we can say that
the actions that we take are to do good. And
I think it's very clear after speaking with you that
that your actions are to really shine a light where
people are uncomfortable and not uncomfortable because they should be
uncomfortable because it's the culture that we're stuck in. So
you know, I applaud you for that. I hope it's
(37:51):
not just dismissed as the gay hockey show, and hopefully
we can get the right amount of intensity behind it
because women's hockey is very regularly dismissed as like gay
hockey dykes and like, And I think that that's such
a misconception of like what women who like women are
and represent, and I think men who like men don't
(38:11):
represent a very weak and small man. These are norms
that we have to break down.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
So we're we're we're doing the work.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
And I think the more things like this come out
and the more kind of constructs that we're comfortable to show, right,
like we always say like the you won't be it
unless you see it concept and that's typically for things
that are good, and there's nothing wrong with being a.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
Gay male athlete.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
So hopefully we can continue to ide eight ways that
men can feel more comfortable to be themselves.
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Yeah, poor men, these poor men.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
These poor men. I don't say that very often but to.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Me either, but I do feel that way right now.
I do crazy.
Speaker 4 (38:52):
It's like the one thing that makes me very sad
for men.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
I fully fully agree, everything else get away from me,
but this one I'm give them their flowers. The stinks
and I think now you know for all the reasons
that you said, it's like the mental health is so poor,
the self reflection and the identity is so poor. The
comfortability to just lean into joy so poor. So we'll
pray for men.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
Today, Yes, but only today.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Poor one out for the men.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
So we've talked a lot today about your book, your work,
your career, your kids, and we want to continue highlighting
all of that. We finish every episode with a question,
usually a parenting question. Yours is a little bit different
because I think that your journey is very unique. So,
as a mom, with this last question, what advice do
you have for working moms who are chasing their passions?
(39:42):
While also continuing to enable their littles to pursue their dreams.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
I think it's important for moms to remember that their
kids are going to be happier and have a better
relationship with them if you're happy, like your happiness is
so important to the happiness of your children. And that
(40:08):
was something I figured out pretty early on with my kids.
And I was determined to be not only happy, but
like interesting and fulfilled in ways beyond my kids. Because
if I really made my kids the number one thing
that took that was like, you know, taking up all
(40:29):
of my time, then eventually they're going to age out
of that. Then where am I going to be? Like,
I needed to make sure I had a creative output.
I needed to make sure that I was making myself
happy and I was. I was doing something that I
hope they'd be proud of someday. So I think that
it's important for moms to to find the time to
(40:51):
do that. If you're a creative person at all, then
find the time to be creative. If you're a super
social person, then find the time to do that. Don't
give those things up because it's not it's not going
to work out well in the long run.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
I love that answer.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Everything that you just said is what I'm currently going
through because I transition from athlete to stay at home
mom and I'm slowly learning that lesson. So I love
that you gave that advice because it is truly spot on.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
Yeah, stay interesting.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
I was going to say, a fulfilled mom is a
good mom. The sacrifices you make to be a good
and fulfilled person can actually make you a better mom.
And so thank you for that. Thank you for joining us,
thank you for talking about all the things. We are
so excited about, the progress. We're so excited about continuing
to dive deeper into the world of hockey romance. Is
(41:38):
there anything that we should be looking out for, any
books that we should add to the reading.
Speaker 4 (41:42):
Log I always recommend a book because it's it's a
little under the radar, that's it's about beer League hockey. Yeah,
it's a gay romance between two men, but it's really
sweet and it's called Hockey Boys. But it's bo I
S And it's by al Herd hga R. And I
just that's one of my favorite hockey romances. I just
(42:04):
I like that it's beer League. I like that it's
just I don't know, it's just really sweet and it's
kind of a slow burn and yeah, I really do
enjoy that one. So and I just like it. Yeah,
because it's different, it's perfect, not pro.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
Well, we love it.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
And I think Maddie and I can really attest to
our beer league love as well. So thank you for
joining us. Thank you for talking all things momming. It
gets giving. It's giving like Shonda Land meets hockey meets
queer representation, and it's very much appreciated by us. And
I think the the you know, the real thematic pieces
that we believe really strongly in and change culture and
(42:42):
talking about mental health, those are all really pervasive throughout
all the things that you've said. So thank you very
much for being a champion for good in the hockey community.
And we are so excited to start watching the show
when it comes out.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
Okay, well, thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
That's it for this week.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
Thanks for listening, and.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
If you like what you heard, spread the word seriously
right now, take your phone out, text a friend and
tell them to subscribe.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify if you haven't already. It really really
helps until next week. I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
And I'm Aya Packer, and this was These Packs Puck.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
These Packs Puck is a production of Iheartwomen's Sports and
Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us Madison
and Anya Packer. Emily Meronoff is our senior producer and
story editor. We were mixed and mastered by Mary Doo.
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry.
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