November 12, 2024 • 42 mins
In this episode, the Packers call up their hockey mentor and go-to person for mom advice, Meghan Duggan. Meghan is a former pro hockey player, three time Olympian, and mom of three. She was captain to Madison at University of Wisconsin and to Anya in the CWHL, and continues to be an inspiring leader to all who know her in work and life. Meghan and her wife had their first kid just before Madison and Anya (during COVID no less), and together they discuss their experiences as queer parents, the challenges they face, and their shared mission to nurture empathetic, kind-hearted kids in a world filled with adversity.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer. I'm a recently retired pro
hockey guy. I was a founding member of the National
Women's Hockey League, a Pillar in the PHL, and an
inaugural member of the PWHL Sirens.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I'm Anya Packer, also a former pro hockey player
and now a full Madison Packer.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Stan Banya nine met through hockey and now we're married
and mom so two awesome toddlers, ages two and four.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And this is these packs pucks where we talk about
everything for professional women's athletes, to sports, to raising children
and all the messiness in between. Well, here we are
packed two moms.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Whopuck. Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Let's start with the hockey because it's my favorite part
of our dynamic is the intersectionality of hockey in our lives.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
That's the favorite part of our dynamic.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
That's the part.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We're going to get to the marriage, the moms, the
life stuff in a bit, but we have to start
every episode with the hockey hot take.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
That's who we are, that's us to our core.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Hoty hot take.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
So first up, I want to talk about the whirlwind
of last season. Maddie, you just came off your first
season with the PWHL. I am honestly mind blown with
the attendance, what the league did, how you all showed up,
which was pretty incredible as a spectator. So tell me
about your vibe, your thoughts, your feelings, tell us about
(01:25):
the league, tell us about the attendance and how it's
kind of gone.
Speaker 5 (01:29):
I'm with you on the mind blown, but not so
much like out of the gate, Like I was excited,
and I knew that it was going to be really
well received because there'd been so much hype, right, Like
there was this big grand thing that happened with the
acquiring of the PHF and the PWHPA and the coming
together of those leagues and all these players. Now that
you have the draft, which is super anxiety inducing and
(01:51):
trying to wait and figure out where you come.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Then then you know, I end up in.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
New York and we're starting to see these markets and
these teams build and the branding behind them, and like
there's all this hype. We have linear television deals for
the first time in the history of the league, Like
every game is on TV, and so there was a
lot of excitement.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
It was really well received. You know, we did a
tour all.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Through New York City and then the first couple of
games happened and it's like, okay, this is like yeah,
like we could do this. And then it just kept going,
especially up in Canada, like the buildings just they sold
more tickets than they needed, bigger buildings than they needed.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Autawa, it was just like razy Ottawa at eighty three
hundred people off the rip was nuts.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
And then some of the viewership numbers we were seeing
on TV because for the first time it was truly
fully accessible you could turn on your TV and watch it.
You didn't I mean some of the streaming stuff in
the past. Yeah, it was great and it was easy,
like my grandpa could figure it out. But it's just
nice to be able to turn the TV on and
watch the game right and have brand recognition in your market.
But it's just truly been like incredible, happened so quickly,
and I'm excited to see what happens this year. Like
(02:50):
they've moved a few of the teams to bigger venues.
Our team is moving to New Jersey and so I
think that with some of these shifts and strategy and markets,
like you're going to see the seats going to continue
to fill up. Montreal could have easily played in a
bigger building all season last year and sold the tickets out.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
You know, Montreal is absolutely crazy. I actually like the
first game of the year when we went to Toronto.
You weren't playing, you were hurt. I had the kids
with me, and your parents were there and your sister
was there.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
So it was like kind of a crew, Like we
had a crew. And I remember they handed us these
bracelets and walking in like I had my own emotions.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I have to remember I'm a former EXAC, I'm a
former player, Like all these things are real, and this
league is brand new and I have no connection to it.
So while I want to be you know, team Madison Packer,
there's a part of me that feels like I want
to be involved.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
I want to be part of what this now is.
Is that that hypergrowth, right?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
But I remember walking in and around every corner I
saw thousands of people.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
I was crying all day. They handed us.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
These little bracelets and they lit up, and when they
started playing the national anthem, they lit them up to
the sound like they were red, white and blue for
the American they were red and white for the Canadian anthem,
and in that moment, I felt the power of what
this new league was because it was production, it was entertainment,
(04:07):
it was packed.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
And then we see the video.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Of Ottawa where there's eighty three hundred people with these
bracelets on, and I swear in those two moments, like
right off the jump, it was.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Kind of like a fine like relief, like Okay, it's
finally got the right support.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
Yeah, and I think, obviously it's disappointing like that first game,
me being on the sidelines coming back from my shoulder injury,
but in a weird way, it also allowed me to
take it all in more and Pascal fought really hard,
the GM fought really hard with the league to allow
all of the players to be dressed for the start
of the game, which is not something they were going
to allow us to do, right, and it's not something
(04:46):
that's typical like if you're not dressing for a game,
you're injured or you're just scratched, like you just don't dress.
But Pascal's point was, all of these women have worked
really hard to be in this moment, and so it
was the only game all season that he traveled the
whole team and we all dressed at the start of
the game, and we all got to go out and
like we were all announced, and we all put our
stick up and like or we all stood on the
(05:07):
blue line for the anthem. Did We did the same
thing for our first game at home, and that's normal,
but for the first game to be on the road
and like have that happen, I think that he recognized
the gravity of the moment and totally I'm not even
sure that's something that every team had. And so it
was really cool to get to be down on ice
level and experience that, but then also get undressed and
go upstairs and like be a part of the stands
(05:28):
and the fans for that first game. Like in that moment,
obviously we get paid for what we do and so
we want to win, but like it wasn't even.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
About that that day.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
It was just so about.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
The moment and all of these athletes that had worked
so hard and so long for that moment, and it
was just incredible to see it all come to fruition
and in Toronto, which is like sick like Canada anywhere
and everywhere, like hockey is dominant in Canada.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
It is so crazy because you also played in the
first ever NAHL game eight years prior to that moment, right,
and I remember we didn't even know each other really
and I played on the whale, you played on the riveters.
So in that moment we had a very similar experience.
You know, first time we're ever getting paid, first time
at paycheck is going to a female hockey player. We're
(06:13):
standing on that the you know, respective blue lines, listening
to the national anthem, and I felt pride in that moment,
you know, tears on my face in that moment, and
then being a spectator and seeing.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Just what eight years looks like. Right, we have two.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Children, we're moms, we own a home, we have all
these things that we would have never had otherwise if
women's pro hockey wasn't in our lives, and now it's
in our lives at this incredible level. I was weeping,
and Whalem was like, I mean, any what's wrong? So
I think all that is, you know a huge part
of the season and how that goes, and then you know,
(06:49):
six records get broken, forty corporate sponsors, you know, hundreds
and hundreds of millions of eyes on social media. But
then at the end of the year, we get the
data and there was almost four hundred undred thousand butts
in seats for a truncated season with only six teams.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Like tell me your thoughts.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
Yeah, I mean, I think that that just proves like
the moment has arrived and the product is consumable. People
want it, people are willing to invest in it, people
are willing to go We just haven't had these venues
and this platform.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
To expose it to people.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
It's obviously not a surprise, but like, the more you
put into it, likely the more you're going to get
out of it. And to the credit of the Mark
Walter Group, Billy Jean King, stan caast In, like they
just did a phenomenal job in everything that they poured
into and recognizing I mean, was it perfect? No, I
mean were there things that were frustrating and you're like, really,
we're dealing with this again? Like yeah, I mean, but
(07:40):
you're lying if you work in any environment and you
say that everything is perfect every single day. But it
was the first time maybe that I felt like when
these things came up, it wasn't like, oh, here we
go again, like good enough is good enough, and it
was truly they're going to take feedback on this or
this is just a learning curvi, this is something we've
been through. It's going to get fixed moving forward, like
there's a real urgency to make things right. There's a
(08:01):
real urgency to get things right. And I think that
it's it's headed in a phenomenal direction and I'm just excited,
Like you look and see what we did last year,
this season is just going to explode. Speaking of some
of these incredible women that the league was built on
the back of, We're going to talk with one of
them today. But before we get to that, Babe, how
(08:23):
are you feeling?
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Where are you at?
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Oh baby? Where are you at on the scale today?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
I'm in eighty six today?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Ooh girl snaps for eighty six, I am like a
twenty five.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
And I cannot kid you. When Whylan will.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Not go to sleep, I wake up in the morning
and I genuinely can't get it right.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
So before we dive into the why behind the numbers.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
Explain to people what that is and why we do
it and kind of what that means for our family.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I love in our check in numbers, it's you have
a hundred points or you have one hundred percent, and
there are times where I'm twenty and you're twenty, so
we got a team forty there, so we have to
either make it work. I'll take on some extra slack,
but right off the jump, it gives us the ability
to take a gut check of where we stand in
our ability to output.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
Yeah, And I think we saw it on like a
mom blog or something sometime. We saw people that do
it and we were like, let's try this, And it's
actually super helpful and beneficial because the concept behind it
is if you're not at one hundred, your kids are
missing something and it's impossible to be at one hundred
and one hundred percent of the time. When we aren't
at one hundred, we find a way. We put the
kids out in the backyard and we're like, okay, that's
(09:30):
like the break, and we sit and we watch them
and it takes a little bit off of us for
a little bit. Or we sit them down and we
give them coloring books. Althotle Parlan has crans. That turns
into a nightmare, but it's just our way of level
setting the family so that we know that we're showing
up and we're giving in some way. We were able
to meld together one hundred percent so that we're fully
present for the kids.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
A thousand percent, and sometimes that TV is the twenty
percent we needed. Like sometimes it just happens to be.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
So why are you where you are today? Because I'm
feeling pretty good. I cleaned the.
Speaker 5 (09:59):
Whole house, I have a day off from training, I
did mobility. I'm gonna hop in the sauna later, I'm
picking the kids up from school. Maybe I'm cooking dinner.
I'm feeling good.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
I love the energy that you've got.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I don't have the same because Waylan's new hot take
is he is not sleeping by himself. He is not
laying in his bed, he is not putting his head down.
He cannot hang with the bedtime routine. And I don't
know what it is, but the burden and tax I
can't just let him cry in his room.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
It doesn't work for me. I stare at our nanit.
Speaker 5 (10:33):
In more context for people, I am a blessed, very
heavy sleeper. So you're usually the one that wakes up
with the kids in the middle of the night seventeen times.
Although to my credit, I do tell you that you
can nudge me and wake me up, and you never do,
which I appreciate.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
But if I'm up, I'm up. Yeah. Like, if I'm up,
I'm up, So why would I bring you down?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
That's a fair point. We're gonna try putting them to
bed a little earlier tonight and see if that works.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
We need that for ourselves. And also, like, here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
If they go to bed late, I think everybody who
doesn't have kids would assume that they sleep late, and
that just.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Isn't Why doesn't that work that way?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
I don't know. It is so interesting.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
Also people that are like, kids don't this or kids
don't that, I'm like, how do you know?
Speaker 4 (11:14):
But how do you know?
Speaker 5 (11:15):
Kids don't tell you if it works or it doesn't.
Like It's why the baby industry is one of the
biggest industries in the world, because the answer really is
that we don't know.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (11:27):
All of this is a perfect question for our first guest,
Meghan Duggan. Good friend of both of us, three time Olympian,
my captain at Wisconsin, longtime pro player, and now mom
to three adorable little kids.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
She is great at advice for us in.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
The world of parenting, and I'm so excited to have
her on the pod and hear what she has to
say about some of these things. We'll be back with
Meghan right after the break. So, Anya, what do you
(12:06):
have to say about Meghan Duggan?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Megan is one of the most incredible leaders. She was
my leader in the CWHL. She was also your captain
at UW Madison.
Speaker 5 (12:15):
Yeah, and I think I've said this before, and like
taking nothing away from all of the players on the
twenty eighteen Olympic team, I think that there's a lot
that goes into winning a championship like that, But without
Meghan at the helm of that ship, I don't know.
I just think that she is such an incredible leader.
She's someone that I have learned so much from over
the years, from Afar and from my time playing directly
(12:37):
underneath her, just playing against her, seeing how she carries herself,
everything about her. She's so unique and so rare and
something that the game needs so much. And I think
right now she's doing obviously big things with the NHL.
She also works with the Women's Sports Foundation. She has
just every perspective.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
And is all over the map.
Speaker 5 (12:54):
What stands out most to me about her is just
her integrity constantly and everything she.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Does but she's not without funny either. That's my favorite
part about it.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
She'll be she'll go from like that person that you
almost idolize whilst she's your captain, to like ons, let's
go dance, like let's go this, or singing in the
locker room, or like doing something completely ridiculous. And I
think the humility of being so excellent but also being
so human at the same time is what makes her
so accessible. Like I had no problem calling her during
(13:24):
COVID with baby questions when she lived five minutes down
the road, because I felt like, that's a normal human
that I can call and trust and rely on.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
To your point about the fun side, When we were
at Wisconsin my freshman year, Megan was a senior captain.
We won the national championship and we won like everything
that you could win that year.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
It was a good year to be a Badger.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
It was a terrible Yeartarier.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
But the deal with Megan was she was like super
super healthy, like my body.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Is a temple. She was like the peak of her training, right.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
So the deal was, if we win the Natty, you
have to eat a McDonald's cheese. Like everyone on the
team was like Okay, she's got to do it, and
she agreed, so we win and we had like a
huge you know, it's just like two weeks straight of
partying and the goalie, Nikki Kassa, brought a bag of
McDonald's cheeseburgers and Megan had to eat it. She only
took one bite, but still she was like, this doesn't
(14:18):
even taste good.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
She's incredible. I'm so excited to talk to her.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
The other thing, too, is she's married to Dillian Apps,
and her and her wife of both birth babies, so
across the two of them, they have three beautiful littles.
And I think it's always interesting to see somebody's perspective
from a birthing parent to a non birthing parent, especially
in the perspective of being a mom. So you know,
as we dive into all of that, we'll also get
(14:42):
into some some nitty gritty, which I love. I'm excited
to hear from her. I know you're excited to talk
to her. Let's kick it over to Megan.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Hi, Meg's I'm so excited to see you. Welcome to
these packs Pop.
Speaker 6 (14:55):
Thanks for having me, guys, it's so good to see you.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
You are our first guy, and so we're super excited
to talk. We thought it would be a good good
way to start.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Just your mom. Obviously you played for a long time.
Speaker 5 (15:06):
You and I played together, You and on you played together,
played against each other. So we're just super excited to
get into it. Just maybe tell us a little bit
about yourself.
Speaker 6 (15:14):
Yeah, a little bit about me. I guess mom is
number one for me, you know, with all the different
things that I've had the pleasure and opportunity of doing,
that's certainly been the joy in my life the last
four and a half five years, four and a half. Yeah,
as you guys know, too many kids at this point,
but it's amazing. But yeah, no, I obviously Madison and
(15:34):
I you know, met playing hockey in college. I've played
my whole life as long as I can remember, jumped
on skates at three and just basically built my life
around the sport and still still do. Had the opportunity
to represent our country three Olympics, which to me now
is the glory days, and have moved into the next
phase of my career working in the National Hockey League
(15:55):
for the New Jersey Devils, which was something I always
really wanted to get into carbon path out in the
men's progame and see what that was like for a
little bit. And so that's where I'm at now. I've
done a lot of work in the advocacy space as
it relates to girls and women in sport. You know,
a proud member of the queer community as well in
creating avenues and visibility for a lot of members of
(16:18):
that community as well in the work that I do.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
So yeah, it's honestly, one of the things that we
love most about you is that we both have been
led by you. And every time we talk it would
be like talking about old Riveters things, talking about old
Pride things, talking about old p Tohl things.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
You know, wherever we're talking about, I think.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
We always kind of come back to like, oh, Meg's
was such a good captain, such a good leader, and
I think we always bring that uniformity into the conversation.
So having you join us to talk about being a
leader in life now and leadering your home and leading
a group and leading a team is all it's so topical.
So that always brings true whenever we talk like, oh,
that team needed the Megan.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
So you talked a little bit about now you're working
with the Devils and you are director of player Development
with them. But your work with the Devils I think
is super cool and super interesting, and I don't think
that all the listeners necessarily know what that entails.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
So can you tell us.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
A little bit about what you do for the Devils
and kind of what your job has transitioned into being.
Speaker 6 (17:19):
Yeah, so I've been with the Devils just over three
years now, the last three seasons worked with them. Really
when I set out to figure out what was next
for me, I had no idea what I wanted to do.
I knew I wanted to stay close to the game.
I was really excited about a potential opportunity in the
National Hockey League, and a lot of conversations led me
to one that I had with Tom Fitzgerald, who's our
(17:41):
general manager there, and great discussions with him kind of
led me to them carving out an initial role for me.
And now it's morphed a little bit over the last
couple of years, but ultimately, you know, what my role
is as director of player development is to help maximize
the talent of our young pros and our organization. So
I focus heavily on kind of our call it our
twenty three and under group, and whether that's recently drafted players,
(18:06):
whether that's guys that we're you know, marinating a little
bit in our American League team, whether that's guys that
are in college over in Europe. It's a it's a
large pool of players that we own the rights to,
and as an organization, at the end of the line,
we have to make a decision is this player ready.
Are they going to be signed and play on our
big team, or play on another team in our organization
(18:27):
at the minor league system, or you know, are they
going to be used as an asset? And so everything
that goes into developing a player and a person to
play at the elite level. As you guys know, it's
not just on the ice. There's a lot of off
ice components as well, but it's kind of supporting and
helping that player develop holistically so that then we as
an organization can take advantage of their you know, the
(18:49):
fruits of their labor and have them help us win
a Stanley Cup or use them as an asset in something.
So that's kind of the group that I work with. Obviously,
the day to day is different. It's player evaluation in scouting,
it's meetings and strategy and vision for where we're going.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
With these players.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
So it's different every day, which I love. And it's
also a job that affords me kind of the unique
opportunity to have hands in a lot of different spots
in the organization and work with different staff members on
different departments, and so I love that part of it.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
How much of that job do you feel like, as
you explain it, I'm thinking like, oh, mom, brain goes
off here in there and there. How much of this
job do you have that tie through that You're like
you feel like you're parenting these kids or you feel
like you're mom and these kids?
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Like, how that's probably real? Yeah?
Speaker 6 (19:32):
Probably, I mean I think my mom brain goes off
a lot, right. You know, as moms and as parents
or caregivers were asked to multitask. We're asked to work
weird hours, right, We're asked to be relied on in
a variety of ways, to be organized, to schedule, to
work hard, to push ourselves out of our comfort zone.
Like these are all things that I learned through sport,
(19:53):
but have been next level as a mom, And so
I do find myself often whether I'm in meetings or
working with players, like I pull thing from my parenting
brain for sure. But yeah, I mean I think my
personality is certainly to like to push on these guys,
to challenge them, to encourage them, to provide them with
an opportunity to be the best version of themselves. And
(20:15):
at the end of the day, that's on them to
take that step. And that's what I'm trying to do
as a parent as well with my kids.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
Aren't we all just trying to raise good humans?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, we're all just trying to make them good, like
do good things, and in a world that makes it
very hard.
Speaker 6 (20:28):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Hey man, we'll be back with Megan right after the break.
So you have three beautiful babies. Tell us about how
they came to the world. Tell the baby story.
Speaker 6 (20:50):
Yeah, no, certainly. Obviously talking about my kids brings a
huge smile on my face. My wife Jillian and I
have have three kids. Our oldest is George. He is
he's about four and a half. He's a classic classic
COVID baby. He was born on the Leap Day back
in twenty twenty and then about ten days later the
world shut down. So when I think about, you know,
(21:12):
when he first came into the world, like what a
unique time to become a parent, learn how to become
a parent. I carried him and sometimes I see, you know,
my personality traits come out in him, whether it's you know,
the type anis always having to put things back where
they belong. And I just make myself laugh because sometimes
I'm like, George, let's go, and he's no, mom, I
gotta put this back, and I'm like, oh, but.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
If you can give someone that'd be right, dope.
Speaker 6 (21:35):
He's the worst, but wonderful, wonderful little boy.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
When COVID went wild, we were.
Speaker 5 (21:40):
All right there and you had just had George, we
had just found out Aya was pregnant, Like it was
like going through all of that crazy. I would come
by sometimes and drop stuff off, like in the mailbox,
like you were you got sick or something.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
And you're like, do you do you mind like I need.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
And we were like, we'll sanitize the thing that we
drop off too.
Speaker 6 (21:56):
Yes, Because that was like March of twenty twenty. I
think you guys are dropping off like icy hot or something. Yes, yeah,
And you're like, okay, we've wiped it down with hand
sanitizer wipes. It's in the mailbox, let us sit in
there for X amount of hours.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
And then after COVID, we met at the park a
couple times with George and Whalan and George was always
like I don't know how I feel about this kid
with the.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Banky, like George was not about it.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
Way then was like throwing sand, like chasing after George,
and George was like, ma me.
Speaker 6 (22:22):
But again classic COVID kid, like hadn't seen many other
humans at size, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Like how much different the second time around with Olivia,
Like how much different experience was it?
Speaker 6 (22:33):
It was so drastically different, but still like we had
Olivia in October of twenty twenty one in Stanford. Still
but it was still like Jill's ketchup's gone, no one
could come in, like it was still restrictions. And Jillian
carried our daughter Olivia. She's two and a half. Just
a spitfire. You guys probably have conversations about first child,
(22:56):
second child, boy girl, whatever it is, but you know,
she's a bit fire and we go back and forth
all the time. She's really pushing our buttons right now currently,
which is hard as a parent, you guys know, but
you know, everyone says she'll be a CEO someday or
some you know version of leader, and so finding obviously
the right way to bring that out in her and
(23:16):
not stifle it, which is hard most days when you're
exhausted and you don't have patience. But amazing, amazing little girl.
And then my littlest is is Sophie. We just had
her on New Year's Eve, right up against the end
of the year, right at the eleventh hour, pretty much
and you know, classic classic third child right now, just
has to go with the flow, trampled by her siblings,
(23:40):
very just happy. Baby doesn't really have a choice because
she's carted around everywhere. You know, she doesn't get the
picture perfect sleeping arrangements and all the photos and all
of that. She's just kind of always tagged along in
the car seat and going with the flow. So really
completed our family. You know, we went back and forth
for a while. You know, we got these two beautiful kids,
(24:02):
one boy, one girl. We're so lucky, feel so fortunate.
I can see you guys, you know, but for us,
you know, Jillian and I are both the third of three,
and we just you know, I had a bunch of
discussions about it, and then we went for it, and obviously,
as as you can imagine, cannot even imagine our lives
without without her and without the third. So feel very blessed.
(24:23):
You know, it's not an easy journey for those that
have been on it, and for us to be sitting
here with three healthy, happy kids, you know, and that's
likely the end for us. I think, you know, I
think we're probably done after three because you know, I
barely have time in the day to go to the
bathroom some days.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
But may that part louder for Madison, seriously, But.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
Yeah, we feel very blessed and lucky. And you know,
things are hard, like parenting is so hard, and doing
what we're doing and working like I'm not going to
sugarcoat it, and you guys know that it is so
hard and days end in tears sometimes all around. But
wouldn't trade it for the world. And I know that
our heart is what people dream of.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
So everyone in the dug and App's household is crying.
Speaker 6 (25:06):
Yeah sometimes, I mean last night actually sat date night
last night, which was awesome, But yeah, some nights and
ends in tears.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
So three is worth it, is what I'm hearing. Yes,
that's all I took away from that.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Yeah, I like that. I like, but you heard me.
Speaker 6 (25:20):
Never never a good time, you know, So that was
that was kind of us.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I love that because I think from our perspectives, right,
we I carried both of our babies, so I only
know that side, and Mattie only.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Knows her side, the only side I'll ever know and.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
The only side I'll ever know, right, Maddie, because we're
good with our two.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
That's what I heard. But I can't do it. I
can't do that thing.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Where we look at you and know that you can color.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
In the picture with both sides, of like with both sides.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
And so I'll say things and not necessarily understand what
it's like to be a non birthing parent for our
children because I'll say or do something and be like, yeah,
we're both thinking the same thing, and that's not intuitive
or that's not the same because I don't know the
perspective of that other person. I want to kind of
like touch on that and like I'll let you and
Maddie rap on that more than more than I possibly could.
(26:11):
But being a parent, especially in sports, especially in a
queer relationship, especially in all the different like layers and
dynamics that feel very binary. How do you and Jill
as parents and athletes and both olympians, by the way
to Bury the lead, both gold medal olympians, both incredible athletes,
how do you navigate parenting?
Speaker 6 (26:30):
Great question and so much to unpack there. For us,
everything just comes back to our values, so as it
relates to our parenting, our work, our day to day,
who we hope these kids are, how we talk to them,
how we talk about them, how we present to a
(26:51):
locker room of NHL hockey players about our family, right,
like all these things when I go out in the world,
Like that's that's what it all comes back to from me.
My whole life obviously has been a series of phases
and ups and downs in whether it's in sport or
relationships or work and discovering who I am and what
I wanted, and you know, whether it came to like
(27:13):
a family or marrying Jillian, like all these things. And
I've always kind of had that value at my core.
And yes, like I've screwed up a million times, I've lost,
I've failed, I've had guilt from parenting, like all these things.
But at the end of the day, kind of every
decision I try to make and we try to make,
and the way we communicate comes back to those values.
(27:33):
And for us, you know, it's all the things that
we believe in, right, respect, kindness, honoring other people and
who they are and where they come from, working hard,
believing in yourself, communicating like all these things that No,
I don't do it all perfect all the time, Like I, yes,
I yell at my kids and then I regret it, right,
(27:54):
I don't show them kindness sometimes and then I regret it, right.
But always kind of coming back to those types of things,
I think is how we just move in and about
our days and what kind of guides us throughout any
venture that we go on, parenting, work, family, all these
different things.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Yeah, I think everything that you just said is like
spot on obviously, but it's back to Anya's point and
kind of what we were all talking about, like the
uniqueness to same sex couples is really not that unique.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
I think. I think that when we.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
Talk about kids and we talk about like traditional family
and et cetera, Like families are founded on what you
just talked about, like principles. When On and I first met,
it's like a running joke because it was literally like
speed dating. But I had just gotten out of a
three and a half year relationship. She was in a
long relationship, and I was like, I want kids at
a younger age, and I don't want to waste time
(28:47):
dating someone that is not going to work out. So
like from the beginning, we were like, we want kids,
this is what we stand on. This family is important,
blah blah blah. And so we knew all of that
and then you come together, you make humans, and then
and you put these humans out into the world and
it's like trying to continue to drive those values into
them and it's like kind of scary. I mean, it's
(29:08):
good and bad right like Waylann's a little hellion. He's
so much like me. But he comes home sometimes and
he says things and we're like, where did he hear that?
Speaker 6 (29:15):
Did you hear that?
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yeah, And it's like, well, school, we've talked a lot
about this.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
You live up in Toronto now, Like the world is
scary enough trying to protect your kids from this, that
and the other, but at some point you have to
let them go and let them kind of figure it out.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
But it's like, how do I.
Speaker 5 (29:31):
Continue to shape these kids into humans that I want
to be better than the humans that I'm seeing around
me now and have these values follow them through life
when there's so much else going on. And for me,
that comes full circle to that conversation that you had
with the maple leafs and the statement that you made.
I think it's difficult to understand inclusion if you've never
(29:53):
been excluded. And I've actually used that line like to
talk to my parents about things Mom and dad like
things that they have a hard time understanding. And it's
like for me that set a light bulb off even
with my kids of like, at some point we're going
to have to cross this bridge with them of why
our family looks the way that it does, and they're
going to have things in their life where they're going
(30:14):
to have to understand why you need to treat people
that way. And it's really fricking hard, Like you can
be the best mom in the world, your kid still
goes to school and it's like, what do you do?
Speaker 6 (30:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's terrifying, Like those are terrifying things, right
the three of us right now, we have these like
little young kids who are so impressionable and so sweet
and sweet sometimes, but they you know, they're not out
really yet in like the big, bad, scary world, and
like you said, they will be you know, George Olivia.
(30:46):
They come home from school, play dates, all these things,
and it's the same, like you said, they'll say something
and I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't say that,
Like we're did you learn that? Like who's teaching you that?
That's not how we behave in our family?
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Right?
Speaker 6 (30:59):
And that sometimes like what we come back to. And yes,
it's like, let's call a spadea spade, like all of
our kids and this kills me, right, all of our
kids at one point in their life, we be naive
not to say this. At some point in their adult life,
they will be somewhere and they will get bullied because
they have two months. It will happen. I hope it doesn't.
(31:19):
I hope when my kids in high school. It's like,
you know, but it will, it will happen, right, And
as a parent, how does that make you feel devastated? Right?
You're so sad. Your kid is sad. They're trying to
figure it out, they're trying to understand, you know, well,
this is this is my family, and that what I
hope in that moment is I have raised a kid
(31:41):
that maybe they know what to say or they don't,
but what we can control is at their core, how
they feel and what their kind of internal response is
to that, and how they interact with other kids that
(32:02):
come from diverse families, how they build them up, how
they support other minority groups. And that's my hope someone
will say that to our kids, because it's it's it's
a sad world out there where there's a lack of
inclusion and respect everywhere. But my kids, my kids won't
I hope, you know, be be saying those things. Like
my kids will be the first kid to come to
(32:23):
someone's defense if they're being bullied. You know, my kid
will have a strong core to say. Yeah, you know
how lucky I am to have two moms. My moms
are amazing, you know. And who are your parents that
taught you to hate on me and my Yeah? Right?
Speaker 4 (32:39):
Or like I have the like I love in my house.
I have two parents, and I have.
Speaker 6 (32:43):
Exactly, I have love in my house. I have two
parents that love me. So is that a bad thing?
Because I didn't think it was, you know, right, So
that's that's my hope. And that's obviously I'm assuming your hope,
and that's the goal, right, that's you know you said earlier,
Raising good humans like that, that's what I care about.
Like our kids are gallavanting around and activities and sports
and this and that. Like I tell my kids, be kind,
(33:06):
work hard, respect other people, have fun like and those
are all cliche things, but we need a lot more
of that in our all of our world because people
don't respect each other and people don't love on each
other enough. And so what an opportunity for us three
on here two, even if it's only our five kids
that go out in the world, and are those things kind, respectful, accepting, inclusive,
(33:29):
Like those are five more bodies in the world that
are doing those things.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
And I think it's not without levity, right, Like Whalen's
in a new place where he wants to identify our
genders like Madison and I and work yeah through that place.
So like Harlan and I live in a Princess house
and Mama and Whalen live in a spider Man house
because they're boys and we're girls. And he can't understand,
like he's not getting like he won't call Maddie Dad
(33:53):
like he's not there, but he's not understanding that like
Maddy can like hockey and sports and all those things
and have short hair and look and act like Whalen
but be a girl. Like he'll like he really struggles
with this idea that like Matty's not living in.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
The Princess house.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Yeah, and so we're like breaking down like this for
Whalen where we're like, Mama's a girl and he's like,
I got.
Speaker 5 (34:15):
It, but she lives in this so she's the He's like, no,
Mama's like me. He just it was like Mommy's like
Harlan and Mama's like me.
Speaker 6 (34:24):
Yeah, And I think, like those things are like so natural,
and I was sorry.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
I know, I know.
Speaker 6 (34:30):
We have to catch ourselves sometimes, right, Like yeah, my
son George, like he loves trucks and dinosaurs. He just
loves them, like he is just you just just your
classic end quotes like little Boy in that and like,
you know, if they are talking about gender all these things,
like we try to talk to them about like okay,
well you know, use inclusive language and all these types
(34:53):
of things, but at the end of the day, sometimes
like they're just trying to like piece together, like what
they totally and like they're curious and they want to
ask questions, and so it's the balance of like not
stifling their curiosity and not being like that's wrong.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
We're not trying to put anybody into a box. Let's
just like break them all down. Let's break down the barriers.
But then you're a parent and you're like, I'm looking
at a pink backpack and a blue backpack and like,
I'm pretty sure Harlan's gonna like this one and like
that one, but like you know what I mean.
Speaker 6 (35:21):
And then like, yeah, no, I know it's hard.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
It's hard.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
Yeah, Way owns a big tinkerbell guy right now.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yeah, And so it's like that's totally fine and good
and great.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
And then as parents, especially sensitive parents, I think.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
We're all hyper sensitive because we have to be and
there's the day that everyone's going to get made fun of,
and so I think we live with this sensitivity.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
And I actually was.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Listening to this thing and it was a trans man
saying I don't want to show my emotion because somebody's
going to say that's such a feminine like not being
able to like live in that divine feminine energy of
being emotional, and so like that's where sometimes I feel
like we get raising a boy. I'm like, I don't
want to over feminize him, but I'm not going to
be masculine, yeah, to accommodate that.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
And so that's such a dynamic, right, Like I'm like, oh,
what do I know?
Speaker 6 (36:09):
No, again, and I wish it was like as simple
as I'm saying it, but because it's not, and I
know that. But like again, for us, we just like
always come back to like what's important, like using respectful, thoughtful,
inclusive language, letting them be who they want to be
every given day, and that changes every day, changes every
(36:31):
hour with toddlers, as you guys know, right, Like I
want to pick out my own clothes, No, you picked
them out. I want my watermelon cut like this and
I want it like this. Like that's how their brains
are talking and thinking about people right now, right And
you know, I saw something once that just said, you know,
your kids are like learning how to be a person
through watching you, and and that just hits home for me.
(36:54):
So like like we've talked about what kind of person
do I want them to be? And want them to
be who they want to be and I want them
to be kind, respectful, and that's what that's what it
boils down to, right.
Speaker 5 (37:05):
Well, yeah, it's like it's no surprise when we when
our kids grow up and we're like they go to
college and we're all going to feel like we just
lost our best friend because we've literally just produced many
versions of ourselves who look up to us and do
all of our favorite things. I mean like we've just
created ourselves, right, So it's like you're trying to give
those kids the good and eliminate the.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Bad from the world.
Speaker 5 (37:24):
But also like it's so hard. There's so much just
unnecessary angs towards the LGBTQ plus community, So like that
layered in there as well, like just fear that your
kid is going to be treated differently or that something's
going to happen because you just don't know. And I
have so many friends yourself included that our same sex
(37:45):
couples that have kids, and I can't think of a
more loving environment for kids to go into. Like it's
just like people who want to have a family and
be left alone.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
But I think that all of this hits home on
one thing, and.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
That's perspective, Like for me at least that Like becoming
a parent has completely changed my perspective on everything in life. Right,
It's like now you understand why your parents did the
things that they did, and you're trying to do things differently, like.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Always try to do better.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Yep.
Speaker 5 (38:14):
I also have to look at the world through a
lens of like how can I make it better? How
can it be better? How can I do better? Because
for me, as soon as I became a mom, it
was like nothing else mattered. Like I was I would
There's nothing that I wouldn't do for my kids.
Speaker 6 (38:29):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (38:30):
I remember literally after we had George and I became
a parent and looked at him, and I remember calling
my mom being like I can't believe you love me
this much, Like that is wild, Like this is how
much you love me?
Speaker 4 (38:43):
Yes, It's like I'm sorry, I'll never love you that much.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
I wish I could try, but I will never love
my mom as much as she loves me.
Speaker 6 (38:50):
I knowship that, like all the times, like when I
got older and I was like, gave my more t
I'm like, don't check in on me, mom, I'm twenty
five years old, you know, like, or don't this and
that or like, why are you micromanaging me? And it's like, no,
I it's because you love me as much as I
love these guys. Crazy. I think as a parent, what
(39:11):
doesn't get talked about enough? There's like funny stuff out
there and memes and all that stuff, but I think
what doesn't get talked about enough is that, like we
screw up all the time. Like I screw up every
single day, right, the mom guilt, and there's all these
things like we're supposed to do it in a different way,
and yeah, I want to be a perfect parent and
I want to raise these great kids, but like I'm
messing up daily learning it right, and I'm trying my hardest,
(39:31):
and like that's such an important thing for all the
parents out there, Like don't sit here and listen to
us and think like, oh my gosh, these guys are
raising such good humans, Like am I? Like what am
I doing? We're all trying our best and some days
are really hard and you're tired and your patients are
tested and you don't do the right thing. And I
think what I try to do at the end of
those days is be okay with apologizing, being okay with
(39:54):
you know, you know Mama, you know, said something she
shouldn't have or was upset with you, and I'm really sorry.
And I think that's an important thing to teach our kids,
especially like, as we've talked about on here, like life
is hard. People out there aren't always going to meet
you with the kindness that you want. You're going to
fail all these different things, and those are things I
(40:17):
want my kids to learn as well. Right, there's all
these things out there about obviously helicopter parenting and snowpow
parenting and all these things, and it's so easy to
do because I just like want my kids to be
happy and not I don't even want them to like
fall and scrape their chin, which George did last week.
But I get so sad sometimes when those things happen.
But it's so critical, I think, for kids and for
(40:38):
parents and anyone listening to us, just to know that, like, yeah,
like it's hard too, and that's okay. All of this
is hard. The discussion we're having about how to raise
kids and inclusion and all these things is hard, and
that's okay.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
Well, you beat me to the punch because I was
going to ask you in closing to give a piece
of parenting advice. And I'm not even going to try
to like summarize it or go back over it. I
think that that was so well and perfectly said, like
space and grace for yourself, for your kids, for each other.
That was incredible. But well, thank you so much for
your time and for chatting with us for a little bit.
(41:13):
It's always fun. Truly, I have so much respect for you.
I think everything that you're doing is incredible. You've left
a very very easy to see footprint for those that
are following behind you. So just thank you for everything
you've done and you continue to do, and thanks for
being such a good friend to Anya and I.
Speaker 6 (41:29):
Yeah, well thank you guys. This is I mean, I
think we could continue this conversation for another hour. I
don't know if listeners would stay on, but truly enjoyed
the conversation.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Well, thanks Megs.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
And also we said there's nobody that we could look
up to listen to and then immediately end up put
a bar dancing doing stupid stuff.
Speaker 6 (41:46):
OHI do that right now. I need more of that
in my life.
Speaker 4 (41:50):
Well, Megan, thank you so much. My pleasure, and that's
all we have today. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
I'm Anya Packer and I'm Madison Packer, and this is
These Pax Pucks.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
These Pax Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us
Madison and Anya Packer. Emily Maronoff is our senior producer
and story editor. We're mixed and mastered by Bihit Fraser,
and our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and
Ali Perry.
Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer. I'm a recently retired pro
hockey guy. I was a founding member of the National
Women's Hockey League, a Pillar in the PHL, and an
inaugural member of the PWHL Sirens.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I'm Anya Packer, also a former pro hockey player
and now a full Madison Packer.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Stan Banya nine met through hockey and now we're married
and mom so two awesome toddlers, ages two and four.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And this is these packs pucks where we talk about
everything for professional women's athletes, to sports, to raising children
and all the messiness in between. Well, here we are
packed two moms.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Whopuck. Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Let's start with the hockey because it's my favorite part
of our dynamic is the intersectionality of hockey in our lives.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
That's the favorite part of our dynamic.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
That's the part.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We're going to get to the marriage, the moms, the
life stuff in a bit, but we have to start
every episode with the hockey hot take.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
That's who we are, that's us to our core.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Hoty hot take.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
So first up, I want to talk about the whirlwind
of last season. Maddie, you just came off your first
season with the PWHL. I am honestly mind blown with
the attendance, what the league did, how you all showed up,
which was pretty incredible as a spectator. So tell me
about your vibe, your thoughts, your feelings, tell us about
(01:25):
the league, tell us about the attendance and how it's
kind of gone.
Speaker 5 (01:29):
I'm with you on the mind blown, but not so
much like out of the gate, Like I was excited,
and I knew that it was going to be really
well received because there'd been so much hype, right, Like
there was this big grand thing that happened with the
acquiring of the PHF and the PWHPA and the coming
together of those leagues and all these players. Now that
you have the draft, which is super anxiety inducing and
(01:51):
trying to wait and figure out where you come.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Then then you know, I end up in.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
New York and we're starting to see these markets and
these teams build and the branding behind them, and like
there's all this hype. We have linear television deals for
the first time in the history of the league, Like
every game is on TV, and so there was a
lot of excitement.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
It was really well received. You know, we did a
tour all.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Through New York City and then the first couple of
games happened and it's like, okay, this is like yeah,
like we could do this. And then it just kept going,
especially up in Canada, like the buildings just they sold
more tickets than they needed, bigger buildings than they needed.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Autawa, it was just like razy Ottawa at eighty three
hundred people off the rip was nuts.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
And then some of the viewership numbers we were seeing
on TV because for the first time it was truly
fully accessible you could turn on your TV and watch it.
You didn't I mean some of the streaming stuff in
the past. Yeah, it was great and it was easy,
like my grandpa could figure it out. But it's just
nice to be able to turn the TV on and
watch the game right and have brand recognition in your market.
But it's just truly been like incredible, happened so quickly,
and I'm excited to see what happens this year. Like
(02:50):
they've moved a few of the teams to bigger venues.
Our team is moving to New Jersey and so I
think that with some of these shifts and strategy and markets,
like you're going to see the seats going to continue
to fill up. Montreal could have easily played in a
bigger building all season last year and sold the tickets out.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
You know, Montreal is absolutely crazy. I actually like the
first game of the year when we went to Toronto.
You weren't playing, you were hurt. I had the kids
with me, and your parents were there and your sister
was there.
Speaker 4 (03:14):
So it was like kind of a crew, Like we
had a crew. And I remember they handed us these
bracelets and walking in like I had my own emotions.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I have to remember I'm a former EXAC, I'm a
former player, Like all these things are real, and this
league is brand new and I have no connection to it.
So while I want to be you know, team Madison Packer,
there's a part of me that feels like I want
to be involved.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
I want to be part of what this now is.
Is that that hypergrowth, right?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
But I remember walking in and around every corner I
saw thousands of people.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
I was crying all day. They handed us.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
These little bracelets and they lit up, and when they
started playing the national anthem, they lit them up to
the sound like they were red, white and blue for
the American they were red and white for the Canadian anthem,
and in that moment, I felt the power of what
this new league was because it was production, it was entertainment,
(04:07):
it was packed.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
And then we see the video.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Of Ottawa where there's eighty three hundred people with these
bracelets on, and I swear in those two moments, like
right off the jump, it was.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Kind of like a fine like relief, like Okay, it's
finally got the right support.
Speaker 5 (04:25):
Yeah, and I think, obviously it's disappointing like that first game,
me being on the sidelines coming back from my shoulder injury,
but in a weird way, it also allowed me to
take it all in more and Pascal fought really hard,
the GM fought really hard with the league to allow
all of the players to be dressed for the start
of the game, which is not something they were going
to allow us to do, right, and it's not something
(04:46):
that's typical like if you're not dressing for a game,
you're injured or you're just scratched, like you just don't dress.
But Pascal's point was, all of these women have worked
really hard to be in this moment, and so it
was the only game all season that he traveled the
whole team and we all dressed at the start of
the game, and we all got to go out and
like we were all announced, and we all put our
stick up and like or we all stood on the
(05:07):
blue line for the anthem. Did We did the same
thing for our first game at home, and that's normal,
but for the first game to be on the road
and like have that happen, I think that he recognized
the gravity of the moment and totally I'm not even
sure that's something that every team had. And so it
was really cool to get to be down on ice
level and experience that, but then also get undressed and
go upstairs and like be a part of the stands
(05:28):
and the fans for that first game. Like in that moment,
obviously we get paid for what we do and so
we want to win, but like it wasn't even.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
About that that day.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
It was just so about.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
The moment and all of these athletes that had worked
so hard and so long for that moment, and it
was just incredible to see it all come to fruition
and in Toronto, which is like sick like Canada anywhere
and everywhere, like hockey is dominant in Canada.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
It is so crazy because you also played in the
first ever NAHL game eight years prior to that moment, right,
and I remember we didn't even know each other really
and I played on the whale, you played on the riveters.
So in that moment we had a very similar experience.
You know, first time we're ever getting paid, first time
at paycheck is going to a female hockey player. We're
(06:13):
standing on that the you know, respective blue lines, listening
to the national anthem, and I felt pride in that moment,
you know, tears on my face in that moment, and
then being a spectator and seeing.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Just what eight years looks like. Right, we have two.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Children, we're moms, we own a home, we have all
these things that we would have never had otherwise if
women's pro hockey wasn't in our lives, and now it's
in our lives at this incredible level. I was weeping,
and Whalem was like, I mean, any what's wrong? So
I think all that is, you know a huge part
of the season and how that goes, and then you know,
(06:49):
six records get broken, forty corporate sponsors, you know, hundreds
and hundreds of millions of eyes on social media. But
then at the end of the year, we get the
data and there was almost four hundred undred thousand butts
in seats for a truncated season with only six teams.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Like tell me your thoughts.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
Yeah, I mean, I think that that just proves like
the moment has arrived and the product is consumable. People
want it, people are willing to invest in it, people
are willing to go We just haven't had these venues
and this platform.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
To expose it to people.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
It's obviously not a surprise, but like, the more you
put into it, likely the more you're going to get
out of it. And to the credit of the Mark
Walter Group, Billy Jean King, stan caast In, like they
just did a phenomenal job in everything that they poured
into and recognizing I mean, was it perfect? No, I
mean were there things that were frustrating and you're like, really,
we're dealing with this again? Like yeah, I mean, but
(07:40):
you're lying if you work in any environment and you
say that everything is perfect every single day. But it
was the first time maybe that I felt like when
these things came up, it wasn't like, oh, here we
go again, like good enough is good enough, and it
was truly they're going to take feedback on this or
this is just a learning curvi, this is something we've
been through. It's going to get fixed moving forward, like
there's a real urgency to make things right. There's a
(08:01):
real urgency to get things right. And I think that
it's it's headed in a phenomenal direction and I'm just excited,
Like you look and see what we did last year,
this season is just going to explode. Speaking of some
of these incredible women that the league was built on
the back of, We're going to talk with one of
them today. But before we get to that, Babe, how
(08:23):
are you feeling?
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Where are you at?
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Oh baby? Where are you at on the scale today?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
I'm in eighty six today?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Ooh girl snaps for eighty six, I am like a
twenty five.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
And I cannot kid you. When Whylan will.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Not go to sleep, I wake up in the morning
and I genuinely can't get it right.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
So before we dive into the why behind the numbers.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
Explain to people what that is and why we do
it and kind of what that means for our family.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
I love in our check in numbers, it's you have
a hundred points or you have one hundred percent, and
there are times where I'm twenty and you're twenty, so
we got a team forty there, so we have to
either make it work. I'll take on some extra slack,
but right off the jump, it gives us the ability
to take a gut check of where we stand in
our ability to output.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
Yeah, And I think we saw it on like a
mom blog or something sometime. We saw people that do
it and we were like, let's try this, And it's
actually super helpful and beneficial because the concept behind it
is if you're not at one hundred, your kids are
missing something and it's impossible to be at one hundred
and one hundred percent of the time. When we aren't
at one hundred, we find a way. We put the
kids out in the backyard and we're like, okay, that's
(09:30):
like the break, and we sit and we watch them
and it takes a little bit off of us for
a little bit. Or we sit them down and we
give them coloring books. Althotle Parlan has crans. That turns
into a nightmare, but it's just our way of level
setting the family so that we know that we're showing
up and we're giving in some way. We were able
to meld together one hundred percent so that we're fully
present for the kids.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
A thousand percent, and sometimes that TV is the twenty
percent we needed. Like sometimes it just happens to be.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
So why are you where you are today? Because I'm
feeling pretty good. I cleaned the.
Speaker 5 (09:59):
Whole house, I have a day off from training, I
did mobility. I'm gonna hop in the sauna later, I'm
picking the kids up from school. Maybe I'm cooking dinner.
I'm feeling good.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
I love the energy that you've got.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I don't have the same because Waylan's new hot take
is he is not sleeping by himself. He is not
laying in his bed, he is not putting his head down.
He cannot hang with the bedtime routine. And I don't
know what it is, but the burden and tax I
can't just let him cry in his room.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
It doesn't work for me. I stare at our nanit.
Speaker 5 (10:33):
In more context for people, I am a blessed, very
heavy sleeper. So you're usually the one that wakes up
with the kids in the middle of the night seventeen times.
Although to my credit, I do tell you that you
can nudge me and wake me up, and you never do,
which I appreciate.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
But if I'm up, I'm up. Yeah. Like, if I'm up,
I'm up, So why would I bring you down?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
That's a fair point. We're gonna try putting them to
bed a little earlier tonight and see if that works.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
We need that for ourselves. And also, like, here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
If they go to bed late, I think everybody who
doesn't have kids would assume that they sleep late, and
that just.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
Isn't Why doesn't that work that way?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
I don't know. It is so interesting.
Speaker 5 (11:10):
Also people that are like, kids don't this or kids
don't that, I'm like, how do you know?
Speaker 4 (11:14):
But how do you know?
Speaker 5 (11:15):
Kids don't tell you if it works or it doesn't.
Like It's why the baby industry is one of the
biggest industries in the world, because the answer really is
that we don't know.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (11:27):
All of this is a perfect question for our first guest,
Meghan Duggan. Good friend of both of us, three time Olympian,
my captain at Wisconsin, longtime pro player, and now mom
to three adorable little kids.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
She is great at advice for us in.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
The world of parenting, and I'm so excited to have
her on the pod and hear what she has to
say about some of these things. We'll be back with
Meghan right after the break. So, Anya, what do you
(12:06):
have to say about Meghan Duggan?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Megan is one of the most incredible leaders. She was
my leader in the CWHL. She was also your captain
at UW Madison.
Speaker 5 (12:15):
Yeah, and I think I've said this before, and like
taking nothing away from all of the players on the
twenty eighteen Olympic team, I think that there's a lot
that goes into winning a championship like that, But without
Meghan at the helm of that ship, I don't know.
I just think that she is such an incredible leader.
She's someone that I have learned so much from over
the years, from Afar and from my time playing directly
(12:37):
underneath her, just playing against her, seeing how she carries herself,
everything about her. She's so unique and so rare and
something that the game needs so much. And I think
right now she's doing obviously big things with the NHL.
She also works with the Women's Sports Foundation. She has
just every perspective.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
And is all over the map.
Speaker 5 (12:54):
What stands out most to me about her is just
her integrity constantly and everything she.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
Does but she's not without funny either. That's my favorite
part about it.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
She'll be she'll go from like that person that you
almost idolize whilst she's your captain, to like ons, let's
go dance, like let's go this, or singing in the
locker room, or like doing something completely ridiculous. And I
think the humility of being so excellent but also being
so human at the same time is what makes her
so accessible. Like I had no problem calling her during
(13:24):
COVID with baby questions when she lived five minutes down
the road, because I felt like, that's a normal human
that I can call and trust and rely on.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
To your point about the fun side, When we were
at Wisconsin my freshman year, Megan was a senior captain.
We won the national championship and we won like everything
that you could win that year.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
It was a good year to be a Badger.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
It was a terrible Yeartarier.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
But the deal with Megan was she was like super
super healthy, like my body.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Is a temple. She was like the peak of her training, right.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
So the deal was, if we win the Natty, you
have to eat a McDonald's cheese. Like everyone on the
team was like Okay, she's got to do it, and
she agreed, so we win and we had like a
huge you know, it's just like two weeks straight of
partying and the goalie, Nikki Kassa, brought a bag of
McDonald's cheeseburgers and Megan had to eat it. She only
took one bite, but still she was like, this doesn't
(14:18):
even taste good.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
She's incredible. I'm so excited to talk to her.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
The other thing, too, is she's married to Dillian Apps,
and her and her wife of both birth babies, so
across the two of them, they have three beautiful littles.
And I think it's always interesting to see somebody's perspective
from a birthing parent to a non birthing parent, especially
in the perspective of being a mom. So you know,
as we dive into all of that, we'll also get
(14:42):
into some some nitty gritty, which I love. I'm excited
to hear from her. I know you're excited to talk
to her. Let's kick it over to Megan.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
Hi, Meg's I'm so excited to see you. Welcome to
these packs Pop.
Speaker 6 (14:55):
Thanks for having me, guys, it's so good to see you.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
You are our first guy, and so we're super excited
to talk. We thought it would be a good good
way to start.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Just your mom. Obviously you played for a long time.
Speaker 5 (15:06):
You and I played together, You and on you played together,
played against each other. So we're just super excited to
get into it. Just maybe tell us a little bit
about yourself.
Speaker 6 (15:14):
Yeah, a little bit about me. I guess mom is
number one for me, you know, with all the different
things that I've had the pleasure and opportunity of doing,
that's certainly been the joy in my life the last
four and a half five years, four and a half. Yeah,
as you guys know, too many kids at this point,
but it's amazing. But yeah, no, I obviously Madison and
(15:34):
I you know, met playing hockey in college. I've played
my whole life as long as I can remember, jumped
on skates at three and just basically built my life
around the sport and still still do. Had the opportunity
to represent our country three Olympics, which to me now
is the glory days, and have moved into the next
phase of my career working in the National Hockey League
(15:55):
for the New Jersey Devils, which was something I always
really wanted to get into carbon path out in the
men's progame and see what that was like for a
little bit. And so that's where I'm at now. I've
done a lot of work in the advocacy space as
it relates to girls and women in sport. You know,
a proud member of the queer community as well in
creating avenues and visibility for a lot of members of
(16:18):
that community as well in the work that I do.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
So yeah, it's honestly, one of the things that we
love most about you is that we both have been
led by you. And every time we talk it would
be like talking about old Riveters things, talking about old
Pride things, talking about old p Tohl things.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
You know, wherever we're talking about, I think.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
We always kind of come back to like, oh, Meg's
was such a good captain, such a good leader, and
I think we always bring that uniformity into the conversation.
So having you join us to talk about being a
leader in life now and leadering your home and leading
a group and leading a team is all it's so topical.
So that always brings true whenever we talk like, oh,
that team needed the Megan.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
So you talked a little bit about now you're working
with the Devils and you are director of player Development
with them. But your work with the Devils I think
is super cool and super interesting, and I don't think
that all the listeners necessarily know what that entails.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
So can you tell us.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
A little bit about what you do for the Devils
and kind of what your job has transitioned into being.
Speaker 6 (17:19):
Yeah, so I've been with the Devils just over three
years now, the last three seasons worked with them. Really
when I set out to figure out what was next
for me, I had no idea what I wanted to do.
I knew I wanted to stay close to the game.
I was really excited about a potential opportunity in the
National Hockey League, and a lot of conversations led me
to one that I had with Tom Fitzgerald, who's our
(17:41):
general manager there, and great discussions with him kind of
led me to them carving out an initial role for me.
And now it's morphed a little bit over the last
couple of years, but ultimately, you know, what my role
is as director of player development is to help maximize
the talent of our young pros and our organization. So
I focus heavily on kind of our call it our
twenty three and under group, and whether that's recently drafted players,
(18:06):
whether that's guys that we're you know, marinating a little
bit in our American League team, whether that's guys that
are in college over in Europe. It's a it's a
large pool of players that we own the rights to,
and as an organization, at the end of the line,
we have to make a decision is this player ready.
Are they going to be signed and play on our
big team, or play on another team in our organization
(18:27):
at the minor league system, or you know, are they
going to be used as an asset? And so everything
that goes into developing a player and a person to
play at the elite level. As you guys know, it's
not just on the ice. There's a lot of off
ice components as well, but it's kind of supporting and
helping that player develop holistically so that then we as
an organization can take advantage of their you know, the
(18:49):
fruits of their labor and have them help us win
a Stanley Cup or use them as an asset in something.
So that's kind of the group that I work with. Obviously,
the day to day is different. It's player evaluation in scouting,
it's meetings and strategy and vision for where we're going.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
With these players.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
So it's different every day, which I love. And it's
also a job that affords me kind of the unique
opportunity to have hands in a lot of different spots
in the organization and work with different staff members on
different departments, and so I love that part of it.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
How much of that job do you feel like, as
you explain it, I'm thinking like, oh, mom, brain goes
off here in there and there. How much of this
job do you have that tie through that You're like
you feel like you're parenting these kids or you feel
like you're mom and these kids?
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Like, how that's probably real? Yeah?
Speaker 6 (19:32):
Probably, I mean I think my mom brain goes off
a lot, right. You know, as moms and as parents
or caregivers were asked to multitask. We're asked to work
weird hours, right, We're asked to be relied on in
a variety of ways, to be organized, to schedule, to
work hard, to push ourselves out of our comfort zone.
Like these are all things that I learned through sport,
(19:53):
but have been next level as a mom, And so
I do find myself often whether I'm in meetings or
working with players, like I pull thing from my parenting
brain for sure. But yeah, I mean I think my
personality is certainly to like to push on these guys,
to challenge them, to encourage them, to provide them with
an opportunity to be the best version of themselves. And
(20:15):
at the end of the day, that's on them to
take that step. And that's what I'm trying to do
as a parent as well with my kids.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
Aren't we all just trying to raise good humans?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, we're all just trying to make them good, like
do good things, and in a world that makes it
very hard.
Speaker 6 (20:28):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Hey man, we'll be back with Megan right after the break.
So you have three beautiful babies. Tell us about how
they came to the world. Tell the baby story.
Speaker 6 (20:50):
Yeah, no, certainly. Obviously talking about my kids brings a
huge smile on my face. My wife Jillian and I
have have three kids. Our oldest is George. He is
he's about four and a half. He's a classic classic
COVID baby. He was born on the Leap Day back
in twenty twenty and then about ten days later the
world shut down. So when I think about, you know,
(21:12):
when he first came into the world, like what a
unique time to become a parent, learn how to become
a parent. I carried him and sometimes I see, you know,
my personality traits come out in him, whether it's you know,
the type anis always having to put things back where
they belong. And I just make myself laugh because sometimes
I'm like, George, let's go, and he's no, mom, I
gotta put this back, and I'm like, oh, but.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
If you can give someone that'd be right, dope.
Speaker 6 (21:35):
He's the worst, but wonderful, wonderful little boy.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
When COVID went wild, we were.
Speaker 5 (21:40):
All right there and you had just had George, we
had just found out Aya was pregnant, Like it was
like going through all of that crazy. I would come
by sometimes and drop stuff off, like in the mailbox,
like you were you got sick or something.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
And you're like, do you do you mind like I need.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
And we were like, we'll sanitize the thing that we
drop off too.
Speaker 6 (21:56):
Yes, Because that was like March of twenty twenty. I
think you guys are dropping off like icy hot or something. Yes, yeah,
And you're like, okay, we've wiped it down with hand
sanitizer wipes. It's in the mailbox, let us sit in
there for X amount of hours.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
And then after COVID, we met at the park a
couple times with George and Whalan and George was always
like I don't know how I feel about this kid
with the.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
Banky, like George was not about it.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
Way then was like throwing sand, like chasing after George,
and George was like, ma me.
Speaker 6 (22:22):
But again classic COVID kid, like hadn't seen many other
humans at size, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
Like how much different the second time around with Olivia,
Like how much different experience was it?
Speaker 6 (22:33):
It was so drastically different, but still like we had
Olivia in October of twenty twenty one in Stanford. Still
but it was still like Jill's ketchup's gone, no one
could come in, like it was still restrictions. And Jillian
carried our daughter Olivia. She's two and a half. Just
a spitfire. You guys probably have conversations about first child,
(22:56):
second child, boy girl, whatever it is, but you know,
she's a bit fire and we go back and forth
all the time. She's really pushing our buttons right now currently,
which is hard as a parent, you guys know, but
you know, everyone says she'll be a CEO someday or
some you know version of leader, and so finding obviously
the right way to bring that out in her and
(23:16):
not stifle it, which is hard most days when you're
exhausted and you don't have patience. But amazing, amazing little girl.
And then my littlest is is Sophie. We just had
her on New Year's Eve, right up against the end
of the year, right at the eleventh hour, pretty much
and you know, classic classic third child right now, just
has to go with the flow, trampled by her siblings,
(23:40):
very just happy. Baby doesn't really have a choice because
she's carted around everywhere. You know, she doesn't get the
picture perfect sleeping arrangements and all the photos and all
of that. She's just kind of always tagged along in
the car seat and going with the flow. So really
completed our family. You know, we went back and forth
for a while. You know, we got these two beautiful kids,
(24:02):
one boy, one girl. We're so lucky, feel so fortunate.
I can see you guys, you know, but for us,
you know, Jillian and I are both the third of three,
and we just you know, I had a bunch of
discussions about it, and then we went for it, and obviously,
as as you can imagine, cannot even imagine our lives
without without her and without the third. So feel very blessed.
(24:23):
You know, it's not an easy journey for those that
have been on it, and for us to be sitting
here with three healthy, happy kids, you know, and that's
likely the end for us. I think, you know, I
think we're probably done after three because you know, I
barely have time in the day to go to the
bathroom some days.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
But may that part louder for Madison, seriously, But.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
Yeah, we feel very blessed and lucky. And you know,
things are hard, like parenting is so hard, and doing
what we're doing and working like I'm not going to
sugarcoat it, and you guys know that it is so
hard and days end in tears sometimes all around. But
wouldn't trade it for the world. And I know that
our heart is what people dream of.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
So everyone in the dug and App's household is crying.
Speaker 6 (25:06):
Yeah sometimes, I mean last night actually sat date night
last night, which was awesome, But yeah, some nights and
ends in tears.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
So three is worth it, is what I'm hearing. Yes,
that's all I took away from that.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
Yeah, I like that. I like, but you heard me.
Speaker 6 (25:20):
Never never a good time, you know, So that was
that was kind of us.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I love that because I think from our perspectives, right,
we I carried both of our babies, so I only
know that side, and Mattie only.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Knows her side, the only side I'll ever know and.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
The only side I'll ever know, right, Maddie, because we're
good with our two.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
That's what I heard. But I can't do it. I
can't do that thing.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Where we look at you and know that you can color.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
In the picture with both sides, of like with both sides.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
And so I'll say things and not necessarily understand what
it's like to be a non birthing parent for our
children because I'll say or do something and be like, yeah,
we're both thinking the same thing, and that's not intuitive
or that's not the same because I don't know the
perspective of that other person. I want to kind of
like touch on that and like I'll let you and
Maddie rap on that more than more than I possibly could.
(26:11):
But being a parent, especially in sports, especially in a
queer relationship, especially in all the different like layers and
dynamics that feel very binary. How do you and Jill
as parents and athletes and both olympians, by the way
to Bury the lead, both gold medal olympians, both incredible athletes,
how do you navigate parenting?
Speaker 6 (26:30):
Great question and so much to unpack there. For us,
everything just comes back to our values, so as it
relates to our parenting, our work, our day to day,
who we hope these kids are, how we talk to them,
how we talk about them, how we present to a
(26:51):
locker room of NHL hockey players about our family, right,
like all these things when I go out in the world,
Like that's that's what it all comes back to from me.
My whole life obviously has been a series of phases
and ups and downs in whether it's in sport or
relationships or work and discovering who I am and what
I wanted, and you know, whether it came to like
(27:13):
a family or marrying Jillian, like all these things. And
I've always kind of had that value at my core.
And yes, like I've screwed up a million times, I've lost,
I've failed, I've had guilt from parenting, like all these things.
But at the end of the day, kind of every
decision I try to make and we try to make,
and the way we communicate comes back to those values.
(27:33):
And for us, you know, it's all the things that
we believe in, right, respect, kindness, honoring other people and
who they are and where they come from, working hard,
believing in yourself, communicating like all these things that No,
I don't do it all perfect all the time, Like I, yes,
I yell at my kids and then I regret it, right,
(27:54):
I don't show them kindness sometimes and then I regret it, right.
But always kind of coming back to those types of things,
I think is how we just move in and about
our days and what kind of guides us throughout any
venture that we go on, parenting, work, family, all these
different things.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Yeah, I think everything that you just said is like
spot on obviously, but it's back to Anya's point and
kind of what we were all talking about, like the
uniqueness to same sex couples is really not that unique.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
I think. I think that when we.
Speaker 5 (28:26):
Talk about kids and we talk about like traditional family
and et cetera, Like families are founded on what you
just talked about, like principles. When On and I first met,
it's like a running joke because it was literally like
speed dating. But I had just gotten out of a
three and a half year relationship. She was in a
long relationship, and I was like, I want kids at
a younger age, and I don't want to waste time
(28:47):
dating someone that is not going to work out. So
like from the beginning, we were like, we want kids,
this is what we stand on. This family is important,
blah blah blah. And so we knew all of that
and then you come together, you make humans, and then
and you put these humans out into the world and
it's like trying to continue to drive those values into
them and it's like kind of scary. I mean, it's
(29:08):
good and bad right like Waylann's a little hellion. He's
so much like me. But he comes home sometimes and
he says things and we're like, where did he hear that?
Speaker 6 (29:15):
Did you hear that?
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yeah, And it's like, well, school, we've talked a lot
about this.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
You live up in Toronto now, Like the world is
scary enough trying to protect your kids from this, that
and the other, but at some point you have to
let them go and let them kind of figure it out.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
But it's like, how do I.
Speaker 5 (29:31):
Continue to shape these kids into humans that I want
to be better than the humans that I'm seeing around
me now and have these values follow them through life
when there's so much else going on. And for me,
that comes full circle to that conversation that you had
with the maple leafs and the statement that you made.
I think it's difficult to understand inclusion if you've never
(29:53):
been excluded. And I've actually used that line like to
talk to my parents about things Mom and dad like
things that they have a hard time understanding. And it's
like for me that set a light bulb off even
with my kids of like, at some point we're going
to have to cross this bridge with them of why
our family looks the way that it does, and they're
going to have things in their life where they're going
(30:14):
to have to understand why you need to treat people
that way. And it's really fricking hard, Like you can
be the best mom in the world, your kid still
goes to school and it's like, what do you do?
Speaker 6 (30:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's terrifying, Like those are terrifying things, right
the three of us right now, we have these like
little young kids who are so impressionable and so sweet
and sweet sometimes, but they you know, they're not out
really yet in like the big, bad, scary world, and
like you said, they will be you know, George Olivia.
(30:46):
They come home from school, play dates, all these things,
and it's the same, like you said, they'll say something
and I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't say that,
Like we're did you learn that? Like who's teaching you that?
That's not how we behave in our family?
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Right?
Speaker 6 (30:59):
And that sometimes like what we come back to. And yes,
it's like, let's call a spadea spade, like all of
our kids and this kills me, right, all of our
kids at one point in their life, we be naive
not to say this. At some point in their adult life,
they will be somewhere and they will get bullied because
they have two months. It will happen. I hope it doesn't.
(31:19):
I hope when my kids in high school. It's like,
you know, but it will, it will happen, right, And
as a parent, how does that make you feel devastated? Right?
You're so sad. Your kid is sad. They're trying to
figure it out, they're trying to understand, you know, well,
this is this is my family, and that what I
hope in that moment is I have raised a kid
(31:41):
that maybe they know what to say or they don't,
but what we can control is at their core, how
they feel and what their kind of internal response is
to that, and how they interact with other kids that
(32:02):
come from diverse families, how they build them up, how
they support other minority groups. And that's my hope someone
will say that to our kids, because it's it's it's
a sad world out there where there's a lack of
inclusion and respect everywhere. But my kids, my kids won't
I hope, you know, be be saying those things. Like
my kids will be the first kid to come to
(32:23):
someone's defense if they're being bullied. You know, my kid
will have a strong core to say. Yeah, you know
how lucky I am to have two moms. My moms
are amazing, you know. And who are your parents that
taught you to hate on me and my Yeah? Right?
Speaker 4 (32:39):
Or like I have the like I love in my house.
I have two parents, and I have.
Speaker 6 (32:43):
Exactly, I have love in my house. I have two
parents that love me. So is that a bad thing?
Because I didn't think it was, you know, right, So
that's that's my hope. And that's obviously I'm assuming your hope,
and that's the goal, right, that's you know you said earlier,
Raising good humans like that, that's what I care about.
Like our kids are gallavanting around and activities and sports
and this and that. Like I tell my kids, be kind,
(33:06):
work hard, respect other people, have fun like and those
are all cliche things, but we need a lot more
of that in our all of our world because people
don't respect each other and people don't love on each
other enough. And so what an opportunity for us three
on here two, even if it's only our five kids
that go out in the world, and are those things kind, respectful, accepting, inclusive,
(33:29):
Like those are five more bodies in the world that
are doing those things.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
And I think it's not without levity, right, Like Whalen's
in a new place where he wants to identify our
genders like Madison and I and work yeah through that place.
So like Harlan and I live in a Princess house
and Mama and Whalen live in a spider Man house
because they're boys and we're girls. And he can't understand,
like he's not getting like he won't call Maddie Dad
(33:53):
like he's not there, but he's not understanding that like
Maddy can like hockey and sports and all those things
and have short hair and look and act like Whalen
but be a girl. Like he'll like he really struggles
with this idea that like Matty's not living in.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
The Princess house.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Yeah, and so we're like breaking down like this for
Whalen where we're like, Mama's a girl and he's like,
I got.
Speaker 5 (34:15):
It, but she lives in this so she's the He's like, no,
Mama's like me. He just it was like Mommy's like
Harlan and Mama's like me.
Speaker 6 (34:24):
Yeah, And I think, like those things are like so natural,
and I was sorry.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
I know, I know.
Speaker 6 (34:30):
We have to catch ourselves sometimes, right, Like yeah, my
son George, like he loves trucks and dinosaurs. He just
loves them, like he is just you just just your
classic end quotes like little Boy in that and like,
you know, if they are talking about gender all these things,
like we try to talk to them about like okay,
well you know, use inclusive language and all these types
(34:53):
of things, but at the end of the day, sometimes
like they're just trying to like piece together, like what
they totally and like they're curious and they want to
ask questions, and so it's the balance of like not
stifling their curiosity and not being like that's wrong.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
We're not trying to put anybody into a box. Let's
just like break them all down. Let's break down the barriers.
But then you're a parent and you're like, I'm looking
at a pink backpack and a blue backpack and like,
I'm pretty sure Harlan's gonna like this one and like
that one, but like you know what I mean.
Speaker 6 (35:21):
And then like, yeah, no, I know it's hard.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
It's hard.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
Yeah, Way owns a big tinkerbell guy right now.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yeah, And so it's like that's totally fine and good
and great.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
And then as parents, especially sensitive parents, I think.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
We're all hyper sensitive because we have to be and
there's the day that everyone's going to get made fun of,
and so I think we live with this sensitivity.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
And I actually was.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Listening to this thing and it was a trans man
saying I don't want to show my emotion because somebody's
going to say that's such a feminine like not being
able to like live in that divine feminine energy of
being emotional, and so like that's where sometimes I feel
like we get raising a boy. I'm like, I don't
want to over feminize him, but I'm not going to
be masculine, yeah, to accommodate that.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
And so that's such a dynamic, right, Like I'm like, oh,
what do I know?
Speaker 6 (36:09):
No, again, and I wish it was like as simple
as I'm saying it, but because it's not, and I
know that. But like again, for us, we just like
always come back to like what's important, like using respectful, thoughtful,
inclusive language, letting them be who they want to be
every given day, and that changes every day, changes every
(36:31):
hour with toddlers, as you guys know, right, Like I
want to pick out my own clothes, No, you picked
them out. I want my watermelon cut like this and
I want it like this. Like that's how their brains
are talking and thinking about people right now, right And
you know, I saw something once that just said, you know,
your kids are like learning how to be a person
through watching you, and and that just hits home for me.
(36:54):
So like like we've talked about what kind of person
do I want them to be? And want them to
be who they want to be and I want them
to be kind, respectful, and that's what that's what it
boils down to, right.
Speaker 5 (37:05):
Well, yeah, it's like it's no surprise when we when
our kids grow up and we're like they go to
college and we're all going to feel like we just
lost our best friend because we've literally just produced many
versions of ourselves who look up to us and do
all of our favorite things. I mean like we've just
created ourselves, right, So it's like you're trying to give
those kids the good and eliminate the.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
Bad from the world.
Speaker 5 (37:24):
But also like it's so hard. There's so much just
unnecessary angs towards the LGBTQ plus community, So like that
layered in there as well, like just fear that your
kid is going to be treated differently or that something's
going to happen because you just don't know. And I
have so many friends yourself included that our same sex
(37:45):
couples that have kids, and I can't think of a
more loving environment for kids to go into. Like it's
just like people who want to have a family and
be left alone.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
But I think that all of this hits home on
one thing, and.
Speaker 5 (38:00):
That's perspective, Like for me at least that Like becoming
a parent has completely changed my perspective on everything in life. Right,
It's like now you understand why your parents did the
things that they did, and you're trying to do things differently, like.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Always try to do better.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Yep.
Speaker 5 (38:14):
I also have to look at the world through a
lens of like how can I make it better? How
can it be better? How can I do better? Because
for me, as soon as I became a mom, it
was like nothing else mattered. Like I was I would
There's nothing that I wouldn't do for my kids.
Speaker 6 (38:29):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (38:30):
I remember literally after we had George and I became
a parent and looked at him, and I remember calling
my mom being like I can't believe you love me
this much, Like that is wild, Like this is how
much you love me?
Speaker 4 (38:43):
Yes, It's like I'm sorry, I'll never love you that much.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
I wish I could try, but I will never love
my mom as much as she loves me.
Speaker 6 (38:50):
I knowship that, like all the times, like when I
got older and I was like, gave my more t
I'm like, don't check in on me, mom, I'm twenty
five years old, you know, like, or don't this and
that or like, why are you micromanaging me? And it's like, no,
I it's because you love me as much as I
love these guys. Crazy. I think as a parent, what
(39:11):
doesn't get talked about enough? There's like funny stuff out
there and memes and all that stuff, but I think
what doesn't get talked about enough is that, like we
screw up all the time. Like I screw up every
single day, right, the mom guilt, and there's all these
things like we're supposed to do it in a different way,
and yeah, I want to be a perfect parent and
I want to raise these great kids, but like I'm
messing up daily learning it right, and I'm trying my hardest,
(39:31):
and like that's such an important thing for all the
parents out there, Like don't sit here and listen to
us and think like, oh my gosh, these guys are
raising such good humans, Like am I? Like what am
I doing? We're all trying our best and some days
are really hard and you're tired and your patients are
tested and you don't do the right thing. And I
think what I try to do at the end of
those days is be okay with apologizing, being okay with
(39:54):
you know, you know Mama, you know, said something she
shouldn't have or was upset with you, and I'm really sorry.
And I think that's an important thing to teach our kids,
especially like, as we've talked about on here, like life
is hard. People out there aren't always going to meet
you with the kindness that you want. You're going to
fail all these different things, and those are things I
(40:17):
want my kids to learn as well. Right, there's all
these things out there about obviously helicopter parenting and snowpow
parenting and all these things, and it's so easy to
do because I just like want my kids to be
happy and not I don't even want them to like
fall and scrape their chin, which George did last week.
But I get so sad sometimes when those things happen.
But it's so critical, I think, for kids and for
(40:38):
parents and anyone listening to us, just to know that, like, yeah,
like it's hard too, and that's okay. All of this
is hard. The discussion we're having about how to raise
kids and inclusion and all these things is hard, and
that's okay.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
Well, you beat me to the punch because I was
going to ask you in closing to give a piece
of parenting advice. And I'm not even going to try
to like summarize it or go back over it. I
think that that was so well and perfectly said, like
space and grace for yourself, for your kids, for each other.
That was incredible. But well, thank you so much for
your time and for chatting with us for a little bit.
(41:13):
It's always fun. Truly, I have so much respect for you.
I think everything that you're doing is incredible. You've left
a very very easy to see footprint for those that
are following behind you. So just thank you for everything
you've done and you continue to do, and thanks for
being such a good friend to Anya and I.
Speaker 6 (41:29):
Yeah, well thank you guys. This is I mean, I
think we could continue this conversation for another hour. I
don't know if listeners would stay on, but truly enjoyed
the conversation.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Well, thanks Megs.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
And also we said there's nobody that we could look
up to listen to and then immediately end up put
a bar dancing doing stupid stuff.
Speaker 6 (41:46):
OHI do that right now. I need more of that
in my life.
Speaker 4 (41:50):
Well, Megan, thank you so much. My pleasure, and that's
all we have today. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
I'm Anya Packer and I'm Madison Packer, and this is
These Pax Pucks.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
These Pax Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us
Madison and Anya Packer. Emily Maronoff is our senior producer
and story editor. We're mixed and mastered by Bihit Fraser,
and our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and
Ali Perry.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.