August 5, 2025 • 39 mins
The Packers asked for sapphic hockey romances—and Kelly Farmer delivered. Her Out on the Ice series follows love stories set in a fictional women’s hockey league with a surprisingly realistic take on the sport—from access and equity to league politics and locker room chemistry. Madison and Anya talk to Kelly about building such an authentic world and discover that one of her fictional couples might just be based on them.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, everyone, Welcome to these packs puck.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Madison Packer and I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I
are both former pro hockey players. We met through hockey
and fell in love, and now we're married with two
awesome toddlers, ages two and four.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
These days, we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And all the messiness in between. So buckle the puck up,
because there is a lot to talk about. Hi, Madison,
do you like that we did a little dance before
we started. I've raised my desk up. I'm standing, So
that's what kind of mood I'm in.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I love how you.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Get the like that's my desk. I'm like down in
this little cubby hole. Although I did just get a
TV in my cubby hole, so I won't complain about
my setup here because it's actually pretty nice.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Now, yeah, okay, I got a couch.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, none of that matters because we're getting into our
hockey hot take, and i'd love to hear your two
cents on it. So let's jump into the hockey hot take.
Hockey hot take, my hot take for hockey, and maybe
like generally women's sports. But I'm gonna stick in our world.
Dating your teammates should be illegal. There I said it.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I don't know about a legal don't exactly it's it
should be frowned.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
We should be more embarrassed when we choose to do it. Well,
you've done it, Listen, I'm embarrassed. It's a problem. So
let me paint a picture. It's a problem. Let me
paint a picture for everybody who thinks like, oh, that's
so cute. You're around each other all the time. You
are around each other all the time. So if you
think about your girlfriend and you're doing your own things,
(01:43):
and you're going out with your teammates, and you're, you know,
laughing on a bus and you're your girlfriend's always there.
She can hear you everywhere. You're annoyed with your girlfriend.
And then you go to work and work is hockey
and is a locker room, and is the same showers,
and it's the same twenty two friends. You have no escape.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Well, now you know how I felt when you became
my bom.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I didn't go in your locker room or your shower.
You still had your space.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Okay, you didn't come in the shower but you definitely
came in our locker room and I learned that lesson
the hard way, and I committed to never doing it again.
And then all of a sudden, lo and behold you
come prancing into my space like the queen Bee.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I was the call though it was it was good,
but thank you. Boundaries.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Boundaries are difficult, and I think, okay.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
So let's no not difficult. Boundaries are necessary, no heard, But.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
It's difficult in the world of your team because if
you're single and there's another cutie single girl, it's really
hard in the sports world to not think, naturally, I
should date that person because we do everything together anyway,
and we're drunk at a bar and we may as
(02:57):
well just make out. Like that's the college gateway to
dating your teammates is like a too fun drunk night
or you make out and then you're like, wait a second,
now we're married. I wasn't expecting that to happen.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
None of my teammates ever made out of it.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
That's a lie. That is a l e lie.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I never saw any of my teammates make out at
a bar. Essentially.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
What I've taken from this, though, is that the bu
women's hockey team in your era as well as the
Connecticut Whale in your era just lacked utter self control.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I think the whale was worse, to be fair, Like
at BU, it was a little bit more clearly frowned
upon because years prior to me going to be U,
UNH had this big like dating blow up and like
people transferred out of UNH. It was insane. So Hockey
East was pretty buttoned down and afraid of it. But
that doesn't mean people weren't dating people on other Hockey
(03:46):
East teams, which was in my opinion, Fine, any of
your teammates ever make out of Mifflin.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
You guys had Mifflin, which was like a humongous danger.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Okay, that's not a bar.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Those are house parties, and it was more I mean
there was a couple. There are also a couple catastrophes,
So it was like kind of early on that we were.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Just like X and A on the date.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Nay, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
And it was more like dating other athletes. But I
don't think that I personally saw it. I once experienced
it and understood why it was frowned upon. Never dated
a teammate again. Have heard horror stories, but like, there
are ways to make it work, right, Like, there are
(04:32):
some couples who have good dynamics, and there are some
couples who just are friends who shouldn't fall in love
with each other. Wouldn't it be interesting if it started
happening in men's hockey?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Though, Yes, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Men, like, does it happen?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
It has to happen, obviously. I think it's more obvious
when women start dating than men start dating, because when
women start hanging out or like, maybe it's not more obvious,
but when like two gay teammates start hanging out and
they don't aren't dating anybody, the rumor mill is crazy.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
After dating a teammate and then experiencing that, I'm like,
oh my Lanta, I cannot believe that I ever did that.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
How about this? My only serious relationships in my life
are with hockey players. Any non hockey relationship that I
ever had was like very temporary to me, and I
was not really interested in it. But I think it's
because we're obsessed with listening.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
How hurtful? No, so Anya is like the heartbreak Quel, I'm.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Not that's so false. The heartbreak queen, this is false.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
When we met and I'm like, well, I'm like, we're
like just like talking whatever, It's like, no, we never dated.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
No, we never dated.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I come to find out like all these people were
like madly in love and Anya was like it was
like a one time thing.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
This is heartlander on my team. I'm not this is
the problem, and I will be completely transparent about this.
I was hurt by one of my old relationships, like
very hurt, and hurt people hurt people, so I can
appreciate that I was not a whole being when I
was dating after that relationship. However, I don't think that's accurate.
(06:03):
I think I just was like lost in my life
and I was trying to find what I wanted and
who I wanted to be with, and then you told
me no to like a hundred dates, and so then
I was because I heard you wear the heartbreak quick,
that's not correct. That's not what you heard. You heard
that I wanted to have kids. I was like, and
you were scared because you're I want to.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Say, I said, I said, I'm not just a stepping stone.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
You're crazy.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I'm not going to be your stepping Stone.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
We weren't teammates. Like dating across enemy lines is fine.
Like we had a lot of fun. That's fun. Like
I think it's crazy, though I remember very specifically. We're
at Crudential Center. You slashed me so hard on the
top of the foot. You hit me so hard. I
was so pissed. And then like three ships later, you
cherry picked me, literally undressed me, and scored, and then
(06:51):
I was benched for the rest of the game and
then didn't get the jersey for the next three games,
and we lived together at that point. I don't think
I've ever been so mad at you in my life.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
I don't remember any of that.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
You don't remember I see.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
All I saw was the opponent's uniforse. You're crazy, very
small defense.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
You're so crazy.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Okay, well let's go into the chick. No, I need
to rehash where we at pack how we feeling. You
look good? Your eyes are like sparkling.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Oh thank you, you're looking good.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Good thing.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
There's a floor between us.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I feel really good. I've been like back in the
swing of going to the gym, which feels really comfortable
to me. If anyone remembers our conversation with Chris Smith
call back to that episode, but she just put out
this consistency code. It's ninety one days to like changing
your life, And honestly, it's just a lot of it
kicking my own ass to get me back in the
gym and feeling comfortable in that space. So I really
(07:49):
love it. It's guided, it's fun. I'm enjoying it, and
I have my workout today. I can barely sit. My
arm's hurt, like you're gonna have to brush my teeth
for me. But I love being workout sore. I think
I'm in eighty five.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
How about you like a ninety one.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
It feeling pretty good lately. Yeah, just got my hair
done this week. We've been doing some house projects. I
took all that garbage to the dump. The kids are
finally jiving with the nanny for another you know, a
few days in a row.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yeah, so pretty good.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
I've got the kids solo this evening, so we'll see
if that stays. However, feeling pretty good right now. Had
my training session with VIC today. Puked, puked, shout out,
shout out again.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Event you just got to feel better after throw up.
I think we have to just like underscore this nothing better.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Yeah. Yeah, our producer.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Before this, it was like you guys puke a lot
in your house, But it's like so satisfying when you.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Work so hard that you yack.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
This is where as athletes like, no matter what we
do in the next era of our life from being
professional athletes and now being the next thing, we will
work so hard at whatever it is that it is uncomfortable.
There's likely going to be vomit, and it's not normal.
Like that's that's the truest thing that I've ever heard
as an athlete. Like, you know, when I go to work,
(09:06):
like I'm working so much harder and longer than necessary.
So you puoked, You feel better? You worked out hard.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
One of the kids, you feel great. One of the
kids at the gym. They've got this the youth boxing
thing for all summer long. It's kids like eight to fourteen.
And I'm so, I'm on the skier and I was
going like how whatever I was doing? And I finished,
and Vick's like all right, and I'm like I thought
we were gonna do more. So I gave him like
the one finger. I'm like one second, I sprinted out
the door, peeped twice right in front of the ring
cam wipe my face off. As I'm walking back inside,
(09:37):
and this little kid, this little eight year old girl,
looks at me.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
She goes, yo, you just up chuck.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
You're like, yes, get get used.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
To I don't know. I'm like, I don't know. Check
the film.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Check go back and watch that rig kim put it
and then burn it. Well, I'm glad that we're both
we're both thriving. I am excited for you to be
ninety one headed into bedtime. I had the kids both
in bed by seven twenty last night, so the gauntlet has.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Been that's not happen. Although I might give Harlan a massage.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
She loves it. We'll get into baby massages and all
the best things. But next we have an interview that
I really love. We had Kelly Farmer on and it's
going to be, you know, kind of the continuation of
Hockey Romance book Club, but this time we found a
staffic hockey novel. We can finally stop talking about boys
kissing and get into girls kissing, which is my favorite
(10:26):
thing in the world. But after the break, we're gonna
it's my favorite thing in the world, girls kissing. That's
better than boys kissing. We're going to talk to Kelly Farmer.
We're going to talk about her work. We're going to
chat about women's hockey and then all the different pervasive
themes that we see throughout her novels. So hang on
for a quick break and then we'll get to that
conversation with Kelly next. Hello, welcome, welcome to these packs. Puck.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
Hi, I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I'm so excited to have you.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
This is the third install of our hockey romance series.
And in our last episode, we asked for sapphic hockey
romances and you answered the call. So we're very excited
to get more into it.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
But first I want to know a little bit more
about you.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
But I also want to talk about the Detroit Red
Wings because it's rumored, but that is your favorite NHL team.
I love you for that, Like, what do you have
a favorite team? A favorite era of the Red Wings?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Is this true? Because I am a hard Wings fan.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
This is true, The rumors are true, and you live
in Chicago. Well, so here's the thing. I became a
hockey fan as an adult, Like I didn't really grow
up as a fan. And then when I started getting
into it. It was because of writing. I was actually
writing at that time like a male hockey player, and
I had this idea that popped into my head and
(11:47):
was like, I should probably learn about hockey. Then this
was a very long time ago, like before hockey romance
was a thing. So I literally just got like hockey
for Dummies and started reading about it. And then I
wanted to obviously watch games on TV. But folks in
Chicago will understand what I'm about to say that in
(12:10):
yieldie days, the Blackhawks organization did not show home games
on TV, and yep, they had the blackouts, and so
the games that were always on because you know, they
showed them like regionally, and so the games they always
showed were the Detroit Red Wings. And this is when
(12:31):
they were like really really good, like early two thousands, you.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Know, Colmstrom, I mean McCarty.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
It was like an all star team every year. So
I was like, Wow, this team's really good.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
I'm pro them.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
And then I watched a black Hawks came and this
was in the era where they were this was pre
you know, them winning a bunch of Stanley Cups, and
I was like, I just can't for this team. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, I'm honestly obsessed with your books. When we kind
of like went through the process of trying to source
the right novels to start to cover the in the
women's space, you sent me a note and you said,
I can't lie. There's some characters that we thought about
with you guys. So talk to us about the series.
Talk to us about all three books in the evolution.
I know we're gonna kind of focus on the third
installment a little bit, but we got to start at
(13:22):
the beginning. So give us a little overview on the books.
Tell us about them.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Yeah. So, the genesis of the Out on the Ice
series was the twenty eighteen Olympics, the Winter Olympics, obviously,
and the gold medal game between tam Usa and Team
Canada where it went into overtime and then it went
to the shootout and it was like, you know, I
don't know, it's one one third in the morning. Yeah,
(13:48):
And I mean, obviously you two were probably very emotional
during during all of this, but I was sobbing as
and like as a person who has I've played hockey,
like the term used very loosely, but like I was
just like, oh my God, this is so great because
I had written two one or two male hockey player
(14:11):
books and I was like, I really miss writing in
the hockey world. I want to write about women's hockey.
And then at that time there was also like all
of the fun stories coming out about like the cross
rivalry marriages. I was kind of like, you know, men's
hockey romance is very popular. It's even more popular now
than in twenty eighteen, and I was like, well, women's
(14:34):
hockey players fall in love with each other and get
married all the time. Maybe someone should be writing these books.
So I decided I was going to write those books.
And so my debut novel was actually Out on the Ice,
which came out in twenty twenty, and then I was
lucky enough to write two more books in that series.
(14:55):
So Out on the Ice it takes place kind of
at a women or a girls hockey camp hockey. There's
like a summer hockey camp, and the one gal who
runs it is a former player, she's retired, and then
her love interest is an active player in my fictional
league that I made up, which was very much it
(15:16):
was the NWHL. So that was the first book. The
second book is Unexpected Goals, which is the Team USA
Team Canada rivalry. Mazie is a Canadian goaltender and Jen
is an American center, and of course they become teammates
on a pro hockey team, and they have to learn
how to play nice with each other, which is hard
at first, but then feelings, as we say in romance,
(15:40):
but then feelings and then calling the shots. The third
book is the rival Head Coaches Book, And these two
knuckleheads had a fling long ago when they were in
their early twenties, and so now they're like, you know,
forty year old grown ups with like real life problems.
One is a single mom, and so yeah, they also
(16:02):
have to kind of learn how to play.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Nice with each other. Why is it's so important or
why did we kind of go from men's hockey into
that sapphic hockey romance. What made you kind of pivot
and go that way? What made you interested in kind
of retelling those stories and going into the women's space.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
First of all, I want people to know that professional
women's hockey exists, because that if a lot of my
reviews said, I didn't even know there's professional women's hockey,
and I got a few people said they got interested
in women's because of my books, so I was super
excited about that. That was one of the things I
wanted to do was just bring awareness, be like, hey,
(16:42):
this is a this is an awesome thing that is
happening right now. Friends, check it out, tune in. And
then in romance you always have here's two or more.
But in the ones I've written or have been too,
they meet and they you know, they have their struggles
and their whatevers. But in the women's hockey space, particularly,
(17:03):
you know, there's the unexpected goals. They're teammates, so you
have an added layer of if we start dating, what
does this mean for the team dynamic? You know, are
we going to you know what?
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Are you crazy?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
By the way? Living that is crazy?
Speaker 4 (17:18):
I'm sure it's got to be like super stressful. I
mean I've did. My background is in theater, and you
want to talk about like cast members who are dating
and fighting during a show, a chemistry is off base
very similar, Yeah, very similar where they're like I'm going
to murder you as they're like singing the love songs
to each other.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
See, there's that added layer of like like there's a
dating relationship, but also like, how is this going to
affect our team? What if one of us gets traded?
You know, Jen and Mazie want's Canadian ones American? What
does that mean when we play each other in the
Olympics and and calling the shots their rival head coaches,
(17:57):
so quite literally, one of them has to lose in
order for the other one to win. And what does
that mean? You know, is one of them gonna get
their panties in a bunch because.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Is one of them going to sit for the rest
of their life with a national championship trophy in their
office for the national championship that they lost. Yes, that's life,
that's my real life. There's so many different layers. So
that is really interesting in the perspective of coming into
the women's sports world because it does happen. We are
in the men's sports world. It's kind of white space.
We can while it certainly happens, we know it does,
(18:28):
it's not public, so there is a lot of like
play around white space.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
So to Anya's point, it's rumored that there's a couple
that's modeled after us. And when I wasn't a part
of the DM exchange, so when I started the third book,
I was like, wait, I think this character could be
like kind of me because it was like Detroit, New
York then like building a league and being a part
of that whole thing. And then Anya was like, no, no, no, no,
it's the first book. So I want to hear about
(18:55):
that couple because I haven't read that book yet. I'm
on the I started on book three.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Okay, so I guess, I guess this is my true
this is my fangirl moment. Like the podcast, it's a
no yes answer because I don't ever write characters who
are based on real people. Real people are real people
and they have their own lives, and I just honestly
think it's a little creepy because authors do this and
(19:21):
they're like they're sometimes very obvious when they're like I
based this on YZ this after yeah, and I'm like,
that's kind of creepy. So I definitely looked at like
real couples in women's hockey as sort of like inspiration.
And there was this very cute couple named Annie and
(19:41):
Patty who had this adorable courtship. So I can say
that you were definitely one of the couples that I
looked at and was like, that's so cute, like it
happens in real life. I was thinking back, and I
would say that Out on the Ice would probably be
the one book where anyone who was in quotes like
(20:03):
real sort of influenced Out on the Ice, just because
that's where I was doing a lot of research of
real people, real situations. But nobody in any and no
character is based on any real person. If anything, it's
more like types of players. There's definitely archetypes, right, there's yeah, archetypes,
(20:28):
thank you.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
I kind of wish I had known that, Like, have
you read Lexie Lafleur Brown's book.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I've not yet.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I thought for sure.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
As I was reading the book, I'm like, oh, this
is her and her husband and how graphic?
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Like are her kids going to see this book?
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So, like when she came on the pot, I'm like,
is this I just need to clarify before we get
started here, Like is this your love story? Because this
feels very telling, and she was like, no, no.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
This is my imagination.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
I thought for sure it was like an autobiography.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Yeah, so I think that is something romance authors get
asked more often than any other genre author. Is this
based on your real life and in varying degrees of creepy,
like maybe because some people some people are like, legit
just curious, like in a very sincere like I'm just curious.
And then I think it's usually men, let's be honest,
(21:17):
who are like this is based oh, like romances based
on your your life, your experiences, and I always just
like gray rack them and I'm like, no, no, next question.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I want to go into very specifically into Calling the Shots,
where there's a lot of really important themes and I
love novelist's ability to leverage a story to say, like
the picture of the world we wish we lived in.
So why was it important to kind of incorporate some
of those things.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Yeah, a lot of authors sort of take real life
things that they love and you can like not fix them,
but you can make them better in fiction. And you know,
there's a few things in Calling the Shots that I
just kind of wanted to push back, but in a
way that it's not pretty chy. So the assistant coach
(22:20):
for one of the teams is a trans woman, and
I just wanted her to exist in the world and
not to gloss over and be like everything's fine. That
I also wanted to just have a trans person in
women's hockey space, and she's there well, and.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I love too how you point out right in calling
the shots, like right from the beginning, you point out
kind of the disparagement right in the lens of men's
sports versus women's sports, and how you know taking this
job would be a step back coaching on the women's side,
going from the men's side, And so I I want,
I appreciate that because that's a very real like narrative
(22:57):
that's out in the world right now, but also calling
it to to the pay gap that still exists, the
resource gap that still exists. And also in calling the Shots,
the characters are really concerned about accessibility in hockey. So
while the book is fiction, like, there are a lot
of non fictional elements that I really appreciate as an
athlete living it and going through it. Did you talk
(23:18):
to people from the hockey community to get a sense
of that or was that How much research did you
do and how much of that was just kind of
observing the you know, the lack of accessibility in a
lot of ways, a lot of it was.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Just observation, you know, paying attention certainly of course women's hockey,
but all professional women's sports. You know, I can't remember.
I want to say it was maybe the LFT documentary
about women's soccer. I may have been that made of
something else, but you know, talking about professional women's soccer players,
(23:53):
and you know how they are all working their other jobs,
and you know women's basketball players who have to go
to Russia to play over in the summer or over
there in their off season because again they can't afford
to not work in their off season. So I thought
it was really important to not pretend for a second
(24:15):
that you know, the women's hockey players, even the like
star players in my league, they still had other jobs.
And I wanted to show the varying degrees because you
have the gouts who are on the women's national teams,
so they've got a little more income. Some of them
have their endorsement deals and their sponsorships, but some of
them live. One lives at home with her parents and
(24:38):
she works at like the neighborhood hardware store because that's
literally like what she has to do to keep playing hockey.
And then you know, I went all the way up
to Regan Lane, who is like the superstar after retirement.
She coached in the nw and the NHL, so I
sort of wanted to show like, she is the exception.
(24:59):
She is the one who is making a living everyone
else is not. Yeah, Tierney is living off of her
ex wife's alimony. Like literally, she's a head coach in
the league and her ex wife makes more money and
she's like, has to have alimony.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
So I thought in that too, the disparity in like
the upbringing tells a lot of the story too, right, Like,
and we talk about this on the podcast all the time.
Mattie and I probably grew up on opposite ends of
the spectrum, but I never had a skating coach a
day in my life. Madison had like three, Right, And
that doesn't mean that we both aren't hard workers. We
both like the outcome is the outcome. But I thought
(25:35):
it was really topical to have it all threaded in there,
because conceptually, unless you're in it or paying attention to it,
no one thinks about all these different layers.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
So I really appreciated that in the storytelling for sure. Yeah,
and that is perfectly portrayed in the book. You had
Tierney who grew up with all these resources at access. Yeah, correct,
Tierney who grew up with all these resources at access
and Reagan who didn't, and how that changes like one
accessibility off the bat, but also like what your future
can look like in the sport, right, and what kind
(26:07):
of future can you have? Like how important also was
that to show and to like reiterate, because I think
that that's something that we don't often think about as
we just think that like, good players are good players,
but there are so many people who fall through the cracks.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
Yeah, definitely, I did write characters who kind of do
cross that spectrum of you know, and out on the
ice Amy her parents have money and she got to
go to Dartmouth and you know, she has had whatever
she wanted to succeed, and her love interest, Caro, did
(26:41):
not have that and she had to work really really
hard to get what she got. And that's sort of
varying degrees in that, you know, Regan Lane and calling
the shots, she grew up very not wealthy, and it's
influenced her entier drive. Her drive is to never have
that again. So you know, from that writer perspective, that's
(27:04):
sort of one of those character traits that when I
was writing her, she never sits still. She can't sit
still because if she sits still, she's afraid, like it's
all going to go away. So I mean I literally
have her on the phone on a treadmill because she
can't even sit still to like have a phone call.
So yeah, I think it was familiar. Oooh me, You're like,
(27:28):
hang on, I.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Can't wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm gonna I'm gonna just
raise my desk up and start walking.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
No.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
But I mean, like, then there's a divorce and there's children,
and that is also an incredibly heavy and complex space
because when you think about women and that relationship and
that dynamic between you know, a fractured lesbian couple and
then having two moms, like it adds such a complexity
(27:53):
and you chose to incorporate it. Why.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
I think it was just important to reflect the reality
of the situation. You know, Tierney's ex wife. I didn't
want her to be like evil or bad because they
have a child. I didn't want anything bad there. I
wanted her to the for hope, the kid to have
good parents. So I think it was just it was
just sort of showing that just the reality of being divorced.
(28:20):
I'm divorced, so I could tap into some things in
terms of like where you know the other person because
they have a child, so they're never not going to
be in each other's lives. But it's just sort of
that reality of those little things like her ex is
dating somebody and you know, she's like so perfect and
(28:42):
so it's but you know, just to show that reality
of even though yes, queer folks fought really really hard
to get the right to marry the you know what,
we still also have to sometimes get divorced and have
that real Some do, some do not.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
No, But I think it's I think it's interesting because
divorce is such a difficult topic generally. I'm a daughter
of divorce. Maddie and I are good. I don't feel
like we're planning to do that anytime soon, but like
who knows, just kidding, but it's but it's one of
those things where it's this taboo topic and we all
kind of stay away from it, especially in the queer space,
(29:22):
because we fought, to your point, fought so hard for
love and then we look at divorce and we kind
of shun it like it's like it's not real, and
it is. And so I thought that this story and
incorporating hope and that kind of like come through process
where she is fulfilled as a child. She does have
all of her parents' moms and and you know, second
parents and incorporated family all kind of leaning into that
(29:45):
that experience is really nice. Was that soothing for yourself?
Did you write that to kind of like ease, like
it eased a little bit of me being a child
from divorce?
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Well, I definitely didn't want to shy away from Tyranny's
concerns about she is a child in divorce and her
parents divorce was very, very acrimonious, and so her she
of course didn't is now living that like horrible, Like
now she is raising a child in divorce, and so
(30:18):
how does that feel for her? How does that influence
how she looks at everything? And then you know, dating wise,
like the I don't want to give spoilers, but the
fact that she has a child is a huge factor
in that relationship because her kid's already been through a
divorce and she's definitely not acting out, but she is
(30:41):
acting in a way that's sort of like you know,
one mom is dating somebody. Now, if you're going to
be dating somebody like confusing, I mean for me. Yeah,
and so like how does that prey on Tyrney and
you know, how does that influence the choices that she make?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
And so in.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
Terms of like soothing it or I think it was
just maybe to show like it's all possible, you know,
for divorced parents who are definitely thinking of their kids.
But then there's also sort of that element of you
also have to do it's right for yourself. You can't
not date the person you are ridiculously in love with
(31:23):
because you're afraid of what that means for your kid.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Well, and also I appreciated so both characters struggle at
different points with their mental health, right, and they have
to kind of come to terms with that and then
open up about that so that they can ultimately be
together and love themselves, love one another and any and
I talk a lot about mental health on the podcast,
and so I really appreciated that element. Without that component, right,
(31:48):
without being true to oneself, without taking care of oneself,
you can't possibly be the best version of yourself for
someone else. So is that something that comes up frequently?
Is that you know a passionate part of your writing.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Yeah, mental health is a huge thing out on the
Ice especially and in Calling the Shots because I in
Out on the Ice, Carrow is actually in therapy and
you see her therapy sessions in the book, and so
that's super important in their story. And I've sort of
joked that Out on the Ice is the book where
they're in therapy. Calling the Shots is the book they
(32:22):
should be in there. Yeah, for these two characters, they
find their own ways of dealing with things, but they,
like I've always said, if I wrote a fourth book
in this series, you would see like, yeah, we maybe
are in couples counseling just to make sure everything is okay.
But I think on a personal level, it's something that's
very important to me, like for both of you just
(32:43):
to talk about mental health, because I think for so
so long people just didn't talk about it, and I
think it's important to say, hey, you're not alone. And
so if people are reading these books and seeing themselves represented,
seeing that maybe you know if you're struggling, that that
(33:05):
there are resources available, but you know ultimately that you're
not alone. And that sort of what Madison was saying,
that like, if to be the best version of yourself
for yourself first and foremost, because we want to be
the best we can be, but then you're the best
person to love with your whole heart and your authentic
(33:26):
self to someone else. So yeah, I think everything I
write just sort of, even if it's nothing is on
the page, there's always sort of a subtle undercurrent of
dealing with medical health.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
What in the hockey romance space have you not seen yet?
Is it something totally new? Is it we haven't seen
this storyline? Is there something that you kind of have
left untouched?
Speaker 4 (33:48):
I would love to see more women's hockey romances, just
sort of period, but also in comparison to men's hockey romances,
which again, there are you can you trip over them?
There are so many, and I would love to see
more than like the twenty or twenty five women's hockey
romances that exist, and that's like a legit number I've counted,
(34:14):
So I yeah, I'd love to see more women's hockey romances,
just or women's hockey player. You know, even the romantic
pairing doesn't matter to me, Just more women's hockey players.
I would also love to see trans romance with a
trans player. That would be amazing. The indie space definitely
(34:35):
has more trans athletes, trans representation. I would love for
traditional publishing to get with these times and get on
that a little more. Yeah, but I would love to
see more trans hockey romances. I think that is the
thing that it's missing quite a bit. And certainly authors
of color, writing players who are people of Taylor, who
(34:58):
aren't just people playing hockey.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
We need something fresh and year.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
You love more of that?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yes, Okay, Well this leads perfectly into our last question.
So we finish every episode by asking our guests to
provide a piece of advice or a little nugget. So
you kind of touched on it, but I want you
to go maybe a little bit deeper. What advice would
you give to someone who wants to make something that
will fill a gap in culture.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
So if you are an author, hello authors out there,
I would say that if you are looking to fill
a void that is amazing. First of all, yes, do
the thing. Also be prepared for it to have difficulty
finding a home in publishing and in all the let's
(35:50):
be real movies, TV, you name it. In media, they're
always looking for something that already exists because that's guaranteed
already makes me and has an audience. So if you're
trying to write the thing that's like, hey, this doesn't exist.
It might be more difficult to find the audience, but
(36:13):
when you and your audience connect, they are going to
be so excited about your work because you filled that void.
You are the person who said, yes, this X y
Z is missing, I'm going to write that, and then
the readers who have been looking for X y Z
they're going to be so happy. So you are definitely
(36:34):
going to make your readership happy. It depends, you know,
on out all honesty. Some things are just more niche
than other things, and that's okay. If that's the thing
you're you're gonna write and you're gonna have those very
excited fans. That's amazing. It would be super great if
you were the person who started the trend. You know,
(36:55):
think about all the things out there that you know,
I think about like Sharknado, who somebody sat down and
said I'm going to write a movie and and like,
do you know how like how many people were like okay, Bill,
like good luck with that. Sharknado has, Like I don't
know how many Sharknado movies there are now.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
With the mag with the Giant Shark that like eats boats.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yeah, like you never know what the thing is, and
like I think about like all those things, you know,
those things out there that just caught on you could
be that person.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
So right.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
The thing that's always my advice is write the thing.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
I love that advice. I think that's great advice. I
love that you're encouraging kind of creating and taking up space.
Your stories are incredible. Thank you for answering the call
and go write something, right. That's the that's the message
to to our our listeners, to to ourselves. If there's
a space that you think needs a little bit of energy,
take up space. Right. Thank you so much for joining us, Kelly,
and we will have to continue the conversation, you know,
(37:58):
when Maddie writes her next STAFFOC novel, right.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Pack, Yeah, so that everyone can ask you yes, based
on your marriage.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
I was a creative writing major in college.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Oh that's right, you were the creative writing major.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
That's I knew. I'm not a science I can write
a sentence to save my life. But all that to say,
thank you for joining us, Kelly, and thank you for
enlightening us on all things SAFA hockey romance.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Thank you. It's truly my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
That's it for this week.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Thanks for listening, and if you like what you heard,
spread the word seriously right now, take your phone out,
text a friend and tell them to subscribe.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify if you haven't already. It really really
helps Until next week. I'm Madison Packer and.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I'm on Your Packer, and this was These Packs Puck.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
These Packs Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by US
Madison and on You Packer. Emily Maronoff is our senior
producer and story editor. We were mixed and mastered by
Mary Doo. Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz,
and Ali Perry.
Hi, everyone, Welcome to these packs puck.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Madison Packer and I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I
are both former pro hockey players. We met through hockey
and fell in love, and now we're married with two
awesome toddlers, ages two and four.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
These days, we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And all the messiness in between. So buckle the puck up,
because there is a lot to talk about. Hi, Madison,
do you like that we did a little dance before
we started. I've raised my desk up. I'm standing, So
that's what kind of mood I'm in.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I love how you.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Get the like that's my desk. I'm like down in
this little cubby hole. Although I did just get a
TV in my cubby hole, so I won't complain about
my setup here because it's actually pretty nice.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Now, yeah, okay, I got a couch.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, none of that matters because we're getting into our
hockey hot take, and i'd love to hear your two
cents on it. So let's jump into the hockey hot take.
Hockey hot take, my hot take for hockey, and maybe
like generally women's sports. But I'm gonna stick in our world.
Dating your teammates should be illegal. There I said it.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I don't know about a legal don't exactly it's it
should be frowned.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
We should be more embarrassed when we choose to do it. Well,
you've done it, Listen, I'm embarrassed. It's a problem. So
let me paint a picture. It's a problem. Let me
paint a picture for everybody who thinks like, oh, that's
so cute. You're around each other all the time. You
are around each other all the time. So if you
think about your girlfriend and you're doing your own things,
(01:43):
and you're going out with your teammates, and you're, you know,
laughing on a bus and you're your girlfriend's always there.
She can hear you everywhere. You're annoyed with your girlfriend.
And then you go to work and work is hockey
and is a locker room, and is the same showers,
and it's the same twenty two friends. You have no escape.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Well, now you know how I felt when you became
my bom.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I didn't go in your locker room or your shower.
You still had your space.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Okay, you didn't come in the shower but you definitely
came in our locker room and I learned that lesson
the hard way, and I committed to never doing it again.
And then all of a sudden, lo and behold you
come prancing into my space like the queen Bee.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I was the call though it was it was good,
but thank you. Boundaries.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Boundaries are difficult, and I think, okay.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
So let's no not difficult. Boundaries are necessary, no heard, But.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
It's difficult in the world of your team because if
you're single and there's another cutie single girl, it's really
hard in the sports world to not think, naturally, I
should date that person because we do everything together anyway,
and we're drunk at a bar and we may as
(02:57):
well just make out. Like that's the college gateway to
dating your teammates is like a too fun drunk night
or you make out and then you're like, wait a second,
now we're married. I wasn't expecting that to happen.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
None of my teammates ever made out of it.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
That's a lie. That is a l e lie.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I never saw any of my teammates make out at
a bar. Essentially.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
What I've taken from this, though, is that the bu
women's hockey team in your era as well as the
Connecticut Whale in your era just lacked utter self control.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I think the whale was worse, to be fair, Like
at BU, it was a little bit more clearly frowned
upon because years prior to me going to be U,
UNH had this big like dating blow up and like
people transferred out of UNH. It was insane. So Hockey
East was pretty buttoned down and afraid of it. But
that doesn't mean people weren't dating people on other Hockey
(03:46):
East teams, which was in my opinion, Fine, any of
your teammates ever make out of Mifflin.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
You guys had Mifflin, which was like a humongous danger.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Okay, that's not a bar.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Those are house parties, and it was more I mean
there was a couple. There are also a couple catastrophes,
So it was like kind of early on that we were.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Just like X and A on the date.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Nay, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
And it was more like dating other athletes. But I
don't think that I personally saw it. I once experienced
it and understood why it was frowned upon. Never dated
a teammate again. Have heard horror stories, but like, there
are ways to make it work, right, Like, there are
(04:32):
some couples who have good dynamics, and there are some
couples who just are friends who shouldn't fall in love
with each other. Wouldn't it be interesting if it started
happening in men's hockey?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Though, Yes, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Men, like, does it happen?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
It has to happen, obviously. I think it's more obvious
when women start dating than men start dating, because when
women start hanging out or like, maybe it's not more obvious,
but when like two gay teammates start hanging out and
they don't aren't dating anybody, the rumor mill is crazy.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
After dating a teammate and then experiencing that, I'm like,
oh my Lanta, I cannot believe that I ever did that.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
How about this? My only serious relationships in my life
are with hockey players. Any non hockey relationship that I
ever had was like very temporary to me, and I
was not really interested in it. But I think it's
because we're obsessed with listening.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
How hurtful? No, so Anya is like the heartbreak Quel, I'm.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Not that's so false. The heartbreak queen, this is false.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
When we met and I'm like, well, I'm like, we're
like just like talking whatever, It's like, no, we never dated.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
No, we never dated.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I come to find out like all these people were
like madly in love and Anya was like it was
like a one time thing.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
This is heartlander on my team. I'm not this is
the problem, and I will be completely transparent about this.
I was hurt by one of my old relationships, like
very hurt, and hurt people hurt people, so I can
appreciate that I was not a whole being when I
was dating after that relationship. However, I don't think that's accurate.
(06:03):
I think I just was like lost in my life
and I was trying to find what I wanted and
who I wanted to be with, and then you told
me no to like a hundred dates, and so then
I was because I heard you wear the heartbreak quick,
that's not correct. That's not what you heard. You heard
that I wanted to have kids. I was like, and
you were scared because you're I want to.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Say, I said, I said, I'm not just a stepping stone.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
You're crazy.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I'm not going to be your stepping Stone.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
We weren't teammates. Like dating across enemy lines is fine.
Like we had a lot of fun. That's fun. Like
I think it's crazy, though I remember very specifically. We're
at Crudential Center. You slashed me so hard on the
top of the foot. You hit me so hard. I
was so pissed. And then like three ships later, you
cherry picked me, literally undressed me, and scored, and then
(06:51):
I was benched for the rest of the game and
then didn't get the jersey for the next three games,
and we lived together at that point. I don't think
I've ever been so mad at you in my life.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
I don't remember any of that.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
You don't remember I see.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
All I saw was the opponent's uniforse. You're crazy, very
small defense.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
You're so crazy.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Okay, well let's go into the chick. No, I need
to rehash where we at pack how we feeling. You
look good? Your eyes are like sparkling.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Oh thank you, you're looking good.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Good thing.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
There's a floor between us.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
I feel really good. I've been like back in the
swing of going to the gym, which feels really comfortable
to me. If anyone remembers our conversation with Chris Smith
call back to that episode, but she just put out
this consistency code. It's ninety one days to like changing
your life, And honestly, it's just a lot of it
kicking my own ass to get me back in the
gym and feeling comfortable in that space. So I really
(07:49):
love it. It's guided, it's fun. I'm enjoying it, and
I have my workout today. I can barely sit. My
arm's hurt, like you're gonna have to brush my teeth
for me. But I love being workout sore. I think
I'm in eighty five.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
How about you like a ninety one.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
It feeling pretty good lately. Yeah, just got my hair
done this week. We've been doing some house projects. I
took all that garbage to the dump. The kids are
finally jiving with the nanny for another you know, a
few days in a row.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yeah, so pretty good.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
I've got the kids solo this evening, so we'll see
if that stays. However, feeling pretty good right now. Had
my training session with VIC today. Puked, puked, shout out,
shout out again.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Event you just got to feel better after throw up.
I think we have to just like underscore this nothing better.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Yeah. Yeah, our producer.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Before this, it was like you guys puke a lot
in your house, But it's like so satisfying when you.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Work so hard that you yack.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
This is where as athletes like, no matter what we
do in the next era of our life from being
professional athletes and now being the next thing, we will
work so hard at whatever it is that it is uncomfortable.
There's likely going to be vomit, and it's not normal.
Like that's that's the truest thing that I've ever heard
as an athlete. Like, you know, when I go to work,
(09:06):
like I'm working so much harder and longer than necessary.
So you puoked, You feel better? You worked out hard.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
One of the kids, you feel great. One of the
kids at the gym. They've got this the youth boxing
thing for all summer long. It's kids like eight to fourteen.
And I'm so, I'm on the skier and I was
going like how whatever I was doing? And I finished,
and Vick's like all right, and I'm like I thought
we were gonna do more. So I gave him like
the one finger. I'm like one second, I sprinted out
the door, peeped twice right in front of the ring
cam wipe my face off. As I'm walking back inside,
(09:37):
and this little kid, this little eight year old girl,
looks at me.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
She goes, yo, you just up chuck.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
You're like, yes, get get used.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
To I don't know. I'm like, I don't know. Check
the film.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Check go back and watch that rig kim put it
and then burn it. Well, I'm glad that we're both
we're both thriving. I am excited for you to be
ninety one headed into bedtime. I had the kids both
in bed by seven twenty last night, so the gauntlet has.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Been that's not happen. Although I might give Harlan a massage.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
She loves it. We'll get into baby massages and all
the best things. But next we have an interview that
I really love. We had Kelly Farmer on and it's
going to be, you know, kind of the continuation of
Hockey Romance book Club, but this time we found a
staffic hockey novel. We can finally stop talking about boys
kissing and get into girls kissing, which is my favorite
(10:26):
thing in the world. But after the break, we're gonna
it's my favorite thing in the world, girls kissing. That's
better than boys kissing. We're going to talk to Kelly Farmer.
We're going to talk about her work. We're going to
chat about women's hockey and then all the different pervasive
themes that we see throughout her novels. So hang on
for a quick break and then we'll get to that
conversation with Kelly next. Hello, welcome, welcome to these packs. Puck.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
Hi, I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
I'm so excited to have you.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
This is the third install of our hockey romance series.
And in our last episode, we asked for sapphic hockey
romances and you answered the call. So we're very excited
to get more into it.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
But first I want to know a little bit more
about you.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
But I also want to talk about the Detroit Red
Wings because it's rumored, but that is your favorite NHL team.
I love you for that, Like, what do you have
a favorite team? A favorite era of the Red Wings?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Is this true? Because I am a hard Wings fan.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
This is true, The rumors are true, and you live
in Chicago. Well, so here's the thing. I became a
hockey fan as an adult, Like I didn't really grow
up as a fan. And then when I started getting
into it. It was because of writing. I was actually
writing at that time like a male hockey player, and
I had this idea that popped into my head and
(11:47):
was like, I should probably learn about hockey. Then this
was a very long time ago, like before hockey romance
was a thing. So I literally just got like hockey
for Dummies and started reading about it. And then I
wanted to obviously watch games on TV. But folks in
Chicago will understand what I'm about to say that in
(12:10):
yieldie days, the Blackhawks organization did not show home games
on TV, and yep, they had the blackouts, and so
the games that were always on because you know, they
showed them like regionally, and so the games they always
showed were the Detroit Red Wings. And this is when
(12:31):
they were like really really good, like early two thousands, you.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Know, Colmstrom, I mean McCarty.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
It was like an all star team every year. So
I was like, Wow, this team's really good.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
I'm pro them.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
And then I watched a black Hawks came and this
was in the era where they were this was pre
you know, them winning a bunch of Stanley Cups, and
I was like, I just can't for this team. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Well, I'm honestly obsessed with your books. When we kind
of like went through the process of trying to source
the right novels to start to cover the in the
women's space, you sent me a note and you said,
I can't lie. There's some characters that we thought about
with you guys. So talk to us about the series.
Talk to us about all three books in the evolution.
I know we're gonna kind of focus on the third
installment a little bit, but we got to start at
(13:22):
the beginning. So give us a little overview on the books.
Tell us about them.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Yeah. So, the genesis of the Out on the Ice
series was the twenty eighteen Olympics, the Winter Olympics, obviously,
and the gold medal game between tam Usa and Team
Canada where it went into overtime and then it went
to the shootout and it was like, you know, I
don't know, it's one one third in the morning. Yeah,
(13:48):
And I mean, obviously you two were probably very emotional
during during all of this, but I was sobbing as
and like as a person who has I've played hockey,
like the term used very loosely, but like I was
just like, oh my God, this is so great because
I had written two one or two male hockey player
(14:11):
books and I was like, I really miss writing in
the hockey world. I want to write about women's hockey.
And then at that time there was also like all
of the fun stories coming out about like the cross
rivalry marriages. I was kind of like, you know, men's
hockey romance is very popular. It's even more popular now
than in twenty eighteen, and I was like, well, women's
(14:34):
hockey players fall in love with each other and get
married all the time. Maybe someone should be writing these books.
So I decided I was going to write those books.
And so my debut novel was actually Out on the Ice,
which came out in twenty twenty, and then I was
lucky enough to write two more books in that series.
(14:55):
So Out on the Ice it takes place kind of
at a women or a girls hockey camp hockey. There's
like a summer hockey camp, and the one gal who
runs it is a former player, she's retired, and then
her love interest is an active player in my fictional
league that I made up, which was very much it
(15:16):
was the NWHL. So that was the first book. The
second book is Unexpected Goals, which is the Team USA
Team Canada rivalry. Mazie is a Canadian goaltender and Jen
is an American center, and of course they become teammates
on a pro hockey team, and they have to learn
how to play nice with each other, which is hard
at first, but then feelings, as we say in romance,
(15:40):
but then feelings and then calling the shots. The third
book is the rival Head Coaches Book, And these two
knuckleheads had a fling long ago when they were in
their early twenties, and so now they're like, you know,
forty year old grown ups with like real life problems.
One is a single mom, and so yeah, they also
(16:02):
have to kind of learn how to play.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Nice with each other. Why is it's so important or
why did we kind of go from men's hockey into
that sapphic hockey romance. What made you kind of pivot
and go that way? What made you interested in kind
of retelling those stories and going into the women's space.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
First of all, I want people to know that professional
women's hockey exists, because that if a lot of my
reviews said, I didn't even know there's professional women's hockey,
and I got a few people said they got interested
in women's because of my books, so I was super
excited about that. That was one of the things I
wanted to do was just bring awareness, be like, hey,
(16:42):
this is a this is an awesome thing that is
happening right now. Friends, check it out, tune in. And
then in romance you always have here's two or more.
But in the ones I've written or have been too,
they meet and they you know, they have their struggles
and their whatevers. But in the women's hockey space, particularly,
(17:03):
you know, there's the unexpected goals. They're teammates, so you
have an added layer of if we start dating, what
does this mean for the team dynamic? You know, are
we going to you know what?
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Are you crazy?
Speaker 2 (17:15):
By the way? Living that is crazy?
Speaker 4 (17:18):
I'm sure it's got to be like super stressful. I
mean I've did. My background is in theater, and you
want to talk about like cast members who are dating
and fighting during a show, a chemistry is off base
very similar, Yeah, very similar where they're like I'm going
to murder you as they're like singing the love songs
to each other.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
See, there's that added layer of like like there's a
dating relationship, but also like, how is this going to
affect our team? What if one of us gets traded?
You know, Jen and Mazie want's Canadian ones American? What
does that mean when we play each other in the
Olympics and and calling the shots their rival head coaches,
(17:57):
so quite literally, one of them has to lose in
order for the other one to win. And what does
that mean? You know, is one of them gonna get
their panties in a bunch because.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Is one of them going to sit for the rest
of their life with a national championship trophy in their
office for the national championship that they lost. Yes, that's life,
that's my real life. There's so many different layers. So
that is really interesting in the perspective of coming into
the women's sports world because it does happen. We are
in the men's sports world. It's kind of white space.
We can while it certainly happens, we know it does,
(18:28):
it's not public, so there is a lot of like
play around white space.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
So to Anya's point, it's rumored that there's a couple
that's modeled after us. And when I wasn't a part
of the DM exchange, so when I started the third book,
I was like, wait, I think this character could be
like kind of me because it was like Detroit, New
York then like building a league and being a part
of that whole thing. And then Anya was like, no, no, no, no,
it's the first book. So I want to hear about
(18:55):
that couple because I haven't read that book yet. I'm
on the I started on book three.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Okay, so I guess, I guess this is my true
this is my fangirl moment. Like the podcast, it's a
no yes answer because I don't ever write characters who
are based on real people. Real people are real people
and they have their own lives, and I just honestly
think it's a little creepy because authors do this and
(19:21):
they're like they're sometimes very obvious when they're like I
based this on YZ this after yeah, and I'm like,
that's kind of creepy. So I definitely looked at like
real couples in women's hockey as sort of like inspiration.
And there was this very cute couple named Annie and
(19:41):
Patty who had this adorable courtship. So I can say
that you were definitely one of the couples that I
looked at and was like, that's so cute, like it
happens in real life. I was thinking back, and I
would say that Out on the Ice would probably be
the one book where anyone who was in quotes like
(20:03):
real sort of influenced Out on the Ice, just because
that's where I was doing a lot of research of
real people, real situations. But nobody in any and no
character is based on any real person. If anything, it's
more like types of players. There's definitely archetypes, right, there's yeah, archetypes,
(20:28):
thank you.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
I kind of wish I had known that, Like, have
you read Lexie Lafleur Brown's book.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I've not yet.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I thought for sure.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
As I was reading the book, I'm like, oh, this
is her and her husband and how graphic?
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Like are her kids going to see this book?
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So, like when she came on the pot, I'm like,
is this I just need to clarify before we get
started here, Like is this your love story? Because this
feels very telling, and she was like, no, no.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
This is my imagination.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
I thought for sure it was like an autobiography.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Yeah, so I think that is something romance authors get
asked more often than any other genre author. Is this
based on your real life and in varying degrees of creepy,
like maybe because some people some people are like, legit
just curious, like in a very sincere like I'm just curious.
And then I think it's usually men, let's be honest,
(21:17):
who are like this is based oh, like romances based
on your your life, your experiences, and I always just
like gray rack them and I'm like, no, no, next question.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I want to go into very specifically into Calling the Shots,
where there's a lot of really important themes and I
love novelist's ability to leverage a story to say, like
the picture of the world we wish we lived in.
So why was it important to kind of incorporate some
of those things.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Yeah, a lot of authors sort of take real life
things that they love and you can like not fix them,
but you can make them better in fiction. And you know,
there's a few things in Calling the Shots that I
just kind of wanted to push back, but in a
way that it's not pretty chy. So the assistant coach
(22:20):
for one of the teams is a trans woman, and
I just wanted her to exist in the world and
not to gloss over and be like everything's fine. That
I also wanted to just have a trans person in
women's hockey space, and she's there well, and.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I love too how you point out right in calling
the shots, like right from the beginning, you point out
kind of the disparagement right in the lens of men's
sports versus women's sports, and how you know taking this
job would be a step back coaching on the women's side,
going from the men's side, And so I I want,
I appreciate that because that's a very real like narrative
(22:57):
that's out in the world right now, but also calling
it to to the pay gap that still exists, the
resource gap that still exists. And also in calling the Shots,
the characters are really concerned about accessibility in hockey. So
while the book is fiction, like, there are a lot
of non fictional elements that I really appreciate as an
athlete living it and going through it. Did you talk
(23:18):
to people from the hockey community to get a sense
of that or was that How much research did you
do and how much of that was just kind of
observing the you know, the lack of accessibility in a
lot of ways, a lot of it was.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
Just observation, you know, paying attention certainly of course women's hockey,
but all professional women's sports. You know, I can't remember.
I want to say it was maybe the LFT documentary
about women's soccer. I may have been that made of
something else, but you know, talking about professional women's soccer players,
(23:53):
and you know how they are all working their other jobs,
and you know women's basketball players who have to go
to Russia to play over in the summer or over
there in their off season because again they can't afford
to not work in their off season. So I thought
it was really important to not pretend for a second
(24:15):
that you know, the women's hockey players, even the like
star players in my league, they still had other jobs.
And I wanted to show the varying degrees because you
have the gouts who are on the women's national teams,
so they've got a little more income. Some of them
have their endorsement deals and their sponsorships, but some of
them live. One lives at home with her parents and
(24:38):
she works at like the neighborhood hardware store because that's
literally like what she has to do to keep playing hockey.
And then you know, I went all the way up
to Regan Lane, who is like the superstar after retirement.
She coached in the nw and the NHL, so I
sort of wanted to show like, she is the exception.
(24:59):
She is the one who is making a living everyone
else is not. Yeah, Tierney is living off of her
ex wife's alimony. Like literally, she's a head coach in
the league and her ex wife makes more money and
she's like, has to have alimony.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
So I thought in that too, the disparity in like
the upbringing tells a lot of the story too, right, Like,
and we talk about this on the podcast all the time.
Mattie and I probably grew up on opposite ends of
the spectrum, but I never had a skating coach a
day in my life. Madison had like three, Right, And
that doesn't mean that we both aren't hard workers. We
both like the outcome is the outcome. But I thought
(25:35):
it was really topical to have it all threaded in there,
because conceptually, unless you're in it or paying attention to it,
no one thinks about all these different layers.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
So I really appreciated that in the storytelling for sure. Yeah,
and that is perfectly portrayed in the book. You had
Tierney who grew up with all these resources at access. Yeah, correct,
Tierney who grew up with all these resources at access
and Reagan who didn't, and how that changes like one
accessibility off the bat, but also like what your future
can look like in the sport, right, and what kind
(26:07):
of future can you have? Like how important also was
that to show and to like reiterate, because I think
that that's something that we don't often think about as
we just think that like, good players are good players,
but there are so many people who fall through the cracks.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
Yeah, definitely, I did write characters who kind of do
cross that spectrum of you know, and out on the
ice Amy her parents have money and she got to
go to Dartmouth and you know, she has had whatever
she wanted to succeed, and her love interest, Caro, did
(26:41):
not have that and she had to work really really
hard to get what she got. And that's sort of
varying degrees in that, you know, Regan Lane and calling
the shots, she grew up very not wealthy, and it's
influenced her entier drive. Her drive is to never have
that again. So you know, from that writer perspective, that's
(27:04):
sort of one of those character traits that when I
was writing her, she never sits still. She can't sit
still because if she sits still, she's afraid, like it's
all going to go away. So I mean I literally
have her on the phone on a treadmill because she
can't even sit still to like have a phone call.
So yeah, I think it was familiar. Oooh me, You're like,
(27:28):
hang on, I.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Can't wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm gonna I'm gonna just
raise my desk up and start walking.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
No.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
But I mean, like, then there's a divorce and there's children,
and that is also an incredibly heavy and complex space
because when you think about women and that relationship and
that dynamic between you know, a fractured lesbian couple and
then having two moms, like it adds such a complexity
(27:53):
and you chose to incorporate it. Why.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
I think it was just important to reflect the reality
of the situation. You know, Tierney's ex wife. I didn't
want her to be like evil or bad because they
have a child. I didn't want anything bad there. I
wanted her to the for hope, the kid to have
good parents. So I think it was just it was
just sort of showing that just the reality of being divorced.
(28:20):
I'm divorced, so I could tap into some things in
terms of like where you know the other person because
they have a child, so they're never not going to
be in each other's lives. But it's just sort of
that reality of those little things like her ex is
dating somebody and you know, she's like so perfect and
(28:42):
so it's but you know, just to show that reality
of even though yes, queer folks fought really really hard
to get the right to marry the you know what,
we still also have to sometimes get divorced and have
that real Some do, some do not.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
No, But I think it's I think it's interesting because
divorce is such a difficult topic generally. I'm a daughter
of divorce. Maddie and I are good. I don't feel
like we're planning to do that anytime soon, but like
who knows, just kidding, but it's but it's one of
those things where it's this taboo topic and we all
kind of stay away from it, especially in the queer space,
(29:22):
because we fought, to your point, fought so hard for
love and then we look at divorce and we kind
of shun it like it's like it's not real, and
it is. And so I thought that this story and
incorporating hope and that kind of like come through process
where she is fulfilled as a child. She does have
all of her parents' moms and and you know, second
parents and incorporated family all kind of leaning into that
(29:45):
that experience is really nice. Was that soothing for yourself?
Did you write that to kind of like ease, like
it eased a little bit of me being a child
from divorce?
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Well, I definitely didn't want to shy away from Tyranny's
concerns about she is a child in divorce and her
parents divorce was very, very acrimonious, and so her she
of course didn't is now living that like horrible, Like
now she is raising a child in divorce, and so
(30:18):
how does that feel for her? How does that influence
how she looks at everything? And then you know, dating wise,
like the I don't want to give spoilers, but the
fact that she has a child is a huge factor
in that relationship because her kid's already been through a
divorce and she's definitely not acting out, but she is
(30:41):
acting in a way that's sort of like you know,
one mom is dating somebody. Now, if you're going to
be dating somebody like confusing, I mean for me. Yeah,
and so like how does that prey on Tyrney and
you know, how does that influence the choices that she make?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
And so in.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
Terms of like soothing it or I think it was
just maybe to show like it's all possible, you know,
for divorced parents who are definitely thinking of their kids.
But then there's also sort of that element of you
also have to do it's right for yourself. You can't
not date the person you are ridiculously in love with
(31:23):
because you're afraid of what that means for your kid.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Well, and also I appreciated so both characters struggle at
different points with their mental health, right, and they have
to kind of come to terms with that and then
open up about that so that they can ultimately be
together and love themselves, love one another and any and
I talk a lot about mental health on the podcast,
and so I really appreciated that element. Without that component, right,
(31:48):
without being true to oneself, without taking care of oneself,
you can't possibly be the best version of yourself for
someone else. So is that something that comes up frequently?
Is that you know a passionate part of your writing.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Yeah, mental health is a huge thing out on the
Ice especially and in Calling the Shots because I in
Out on the Ice, Carrow is actually in therapy and
you see her therapy sessions in the book, and so
that's super important in their story. And I've sort of
joked that Out on the Ice is the book where
they're in therapy. Calling the Shots is the book they
(32:22):
should be in there. Yeah, for these two characters, they
find their own ways of dealing with things, but they,
like I've always said, if I wrote a fourth book
in this series, you would see like, yeah, we maybe
are in couples counseling just to make sure everything is okay.
But I think on a personal level, it's something that's
very important to me, like for both of you just
(32:43):
to talk about mental health, because I think for so
so long people just didn't talk about it, and I
think it's important to say, hey, you're not alone. And
so if people are reading these books and seeing themselves represented,
seeing that maybe you know if you're struggling, that that
(33:05):
there are resources available, but you know ultimately that you're
not alone. And that sort of what Madison was saying,
that like, if to be the best version of yourself
for yourself first and foremost, because we want to be
the best we can be, but then you're the best
person to love with your whole heart and your authentic
(33:26):
self to someone else. So yeah, I think everything I
write just sort of, even if it's nothing is on
the page, there's always sort of a subtle undercurrent of
dealing with medical health.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
What in the hockey romance space have you not seen yet?
Is it something totally new? Is it we haven't seen
this storyline? Is there something that you kind of have
left untouched?
Speaker 4 (33:48):
I would love to see more women's hockey romances, just
sort of period, but also in comparison to men's hockey romances,
which again, there are you can you trip over them?
There are so many, and I would love to see
more than like the twenty or twenty five women's hockey
romances that exist, and that's like a legit number I've counted,
(34:14):
So I yeah, I'd love to see more women's hockey romances,
just or women's hockey player. You know, even the romantic
pairing doesn't matter to me, Just more women's hockey players.
I would also love to see trans romance with a
trans player. That would be amazing. The indie space definitely
(34:35):
has more trans athletes, trans representation. I would love for
traditional publishing to get with these times and get on
that a little more. Yeah, but I would love to
see more trans hockey romances. I think that is the
thing that it's missing quite a bit. And certainly authors
of color, writing players who are people of Taylor, who
(34:58):
aren't just people playing hockey.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
We need something fresh and year.
Speaker 3 (35:02):
You love more of that?
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yes, Okay, Well this leads perfectly into our last question.
So we finish every episode by asking our guests to
provide a piece of advice or a little nugget. So
you kind of touched on it, but I want you
to go maybe a little bit deeper. What advice would
you give to someone who wants to make something that
will fill a gap in culture.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
So if you are an author, hello authors out there,
I would say that if you are looking to fill
a void that is amazing. First of all, yes, do
the thing. Also be prepared for it to have difficulty
finding a home in publishing and in all the let's
(35:50):
be real movies, TV, you name it. In media, they're
always looking for something that already exists because that's guaranteed
already makes me and has an audience. So if you're
trying to write the thing that's like, hey, this doesn't exist.
It might be more difficult to find the audience, but
(36:13):
when you and your audience connect, they are going to
be so excited about your work because you filled that void.
You are the person who said, yes, this X y
Z is missing, I'm going to write that, and then
the readers who have been looking for X y Z
they're going to be so happy. So you are definitely
(36:34):
going to make your readership happy. It depends, you know,
on out all honesty. Some things are just more niche
than other things, and that's okay. If that's the thing
you're you're gonna write and you're gonna have those very
excited fans. That's amazing. It would be super great if
you were the person who started the trend. You know,
(36:55):
think about all the things out there that you know,
I think about like Sharknado, who somebody sat down and
said I'm going to write a movie and and like,
do you know how like how many people were like okay, Bill,
like good luck with that. Sharknado has, Like I don't
know how many Sharknado movies there are now.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
With the mag with the Giant Shark that like eats boats.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yeah, like you never know what the thing is, and
like I think about like all those things, you know,
those things out there that just caught on you could
be that person.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
So right.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
The thing that's always my advice is write the thing.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
I love that advice. I think that's great advice. I
love that you're encouraging kind of creating and taking up space.
Your stories are incredible. Thank you for answering the call
and go write something, right. That's the that's the message
to to our our listeners, to to ourselves. If there's
a space that you think needs a little bit of energy,
take up space. Right. Thank you so much for joining us, Kelly,
and we will have to continue the conversation, you know,
(37:58):
when Maddie writes her next STAFFOC novel, right.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Pack, Yeah, so that everyone can ask you yes, based
on your marriage.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
I was a creative writing major in college.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
Oh that's right, you were the creative writing major.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
That's I knew. I'm not a science I can write
a sentence to save my life. But all that to say,
thank you for joining us, Kelly, and thank you for
enlightening us on all things SAFA hockey romance.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Thank you. It's truly my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
That's it for this week.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Thanks for listening, and if you like what you heard,
spread the word seriously right now, take your phone out,
text a friend and tell them to subscribe.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify if you haven't already. It really really
helps Until next week. I'm Madison Packer and.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I'm on Your Packer, and this was These Packs Puck.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
These Packs Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by US
Madison and on You Packer. Emily Maronoff is our senior
producer and story editor. We were mixed and mastered by
Mary Doo. Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz,
and Ali Perry.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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