November 19, 2024 • 37 mins
Anyone who gets to the top of their sport has a very strong “why” that drove them to get there. For Ashlyn Harris, soccer was her way out of an unstable childhood. Her work ethic led to an enviable career which included 10 seasons playing in the NWSL and two World Cup wins on the US Women’s National Team. While playing, she was an advocate for players, fighting alongside her teammates for equal pay in women’s soccer. Post retirement, she continues to use her platform to raise awareness around issues that are important to her, such as LGBTQ+ rights and mental health issues. On top of all that, Ashlyn became a mom while still playing, which gives her lots to talk about with the Packers. They unpack the lack of resources available to players, what it’s like to parent as a public figure, and much more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer. I'm a recently retired pro
hockey back. I was a founding member of the National
Women's Hockey League, a Pillar in the PHL, and an
inaugural member of the PWHL Sirens.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And I'm Anya Packer, also a former pro hockey player
and now a full Madison Packer.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Stan Banya nine, Matt throw hockey and now we're married
and mom so two awesome toddlers, ages two and four.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
And this is these Pack spots where we talk about
everything for professional women's athletes, to sports, to raising children
and all the messiness in between. Hello everybody, welcome back.
You have your favorite duo here. Today we're going to
talk about all the things, but most importantly pack you
ready for my hockey hot take of the day.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Hockey hot take.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Today, we are going to talk about my favorite thing
in the world. It's that we could all get to
the tip of the mountain. But every single journey is different,
and even you know, we see the same thing between
you and I. Our journeys are very different, so it's
pretty incredible. But we all have a completely different pathway
to get to professional sports and what that looks like
for every single person is different, but we all acquire
(01:15):
the same skills and then we finally compound up to
the level of pro athlete.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah, I think it's hard because we so frequently get
asked by people, and most namely probably parents are kids
that are like in it right now, what did you do?
How did you get there? Like, everyone's story and journey
is so different. We've talked about it. I had basically
anything I wanted or needed right from a resource standpoint,
Like my dad and mom always said that they would
match my input, meaning financially, they would get me the
(01:44):
skills coaches and the ice time and the stuff that
I needed so long as I was putting in the
time and the commitment. And I think for sure me
like I was able to get further ahead and make
the teams that I was a part of because I
had access to those things. We always joke as a
family like athletically gifted wise, I'm probably the worst athlete
all around in my family, but I just always really
(02:05):
wanted it. Like I always did the extra skills stuff,
you know, I was on the extra ice and doing
that little bit extra that more. But I also had
access to like the most incredible coaches.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
All the time. Yeah, I mean can totally.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Conversely, my mom and dad were very much like, if
you want it, you have to go get it. But
that financial means didn't exist, right, It wasn't an endless
pool to choose from.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
On the coaches and this and then that.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So that's where I think, like all the roads eventually
get us to that place, because if you want all
the things, regardless, if you can afford all the best
coaches in the world, you can certainly find a way
to make it happen.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Right. You may have been able to pay for the
best gym in the entire world.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I worked at my gym, I put in hours, I
did all the things, and I then got training because
of that. And so that's like kind of the different roads,
same story sort of thing. So I just think it's
so interesting that you know, really what it comes down
to isn't resources, it's it's the will. And I love
that you said that because that's so real, right, Like
(03:05):
you didn't have to go to private school because your
parents made it so, but you also had Little Caesars.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
You're in Michigan, Well, yeah, I mean Little Caesars has
one of the best youth hockey programs in the world.
So Little Caesar's Yes Pizza Pizza is a hockey team
in the Detroit area, one of the best programs.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
At all levels in all ages.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
They are owned by the Illach family, who owns the
Red Wings, who owns Little Caesars Pizza. Little Caesar's is
like the pinnacle for what a youth hockey program wants
to look like. But I will disagree a little bit
because to your point about resources, because that is a
huge advantage. If you have the means and the ability
to invest in extra resources, you're going to get further ahead.
(03:45):
Even if you are more naturally talented and you don't
have those resources, sure you're still going to be good.
But someone that has access to those things unconditionally in
the way that I do right now with the guys
at the gym at PHP in Connecticut, like I'm training
to get faster for next season. They are the best
people in the world at what they do. It's why
we're training there. Most people can't afford to train with them.
That's an advantage, that's an.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Edge, but that's pro to pro plus.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I'm talking about youth sports like I'm talking about getting
from your youth program to a high school program into
some kind of collegiate environment. I mean, now we see
colleges scout at the club level, Like there are club
coaches going to tournaments and saying to kids, Hey, do
you want to come to this school. It doesn't necessarily
have the same ability to jump some hurdles like a
Division one program or Division III or NESCAC, etc. But
(04:33):
I still think when you're talking about not having one
hundred skills coaches, not having extra power skating ice, not
having the best trainers in the world, but just truly
giving it your all, I think on the youth to
college pathway, there's some kind of kind of like I
could just want it that bad and I could go
(04:55):
that hard and find a way there.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, I mean I think you have to have that
ed within you if you want to play at the
next level anyways, Right, you see it so many times,
how many kids get to the college level and they're like, wait,
what is this? So you have to have that extra
gear within you to even get to that point. I
just think that having access to those resources obviously helps
you maybe get there a little bit easier, or have
the tools in your toolbox when you do get there
(05:18):
to be more successful totally.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I mean, that's where I think the difference is the
most obvious is I woke up, I went to the
rink at five o'clock in the morning, I got my
power skate in. I went to school, then my city
owned the rink.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
I went to.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Public high school, played on the public hockey team. Finally
Boston University went to a Waltham Public High school game,
And the joke is, was it really a hockey game?
Like who knows at that caliber? It was just a
regular run of the mill high school. And Brian de
Roscher is used to scouting the Olympics from Marie Fulipepulin,
who ended up being my college roommate. But that's just
such a variability and lo and behold, you get a
(05:58):
recruited walk on spot or I do, and all of
those little moments where I gave things up, or I
worked filing papers, or I worked cleaning the gym made
it make sense for me.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
So, yeah, it probably wasn't as easy. There's probably a.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Lot more hours of extra stuff, but that doesn't take
away from somebody that had all the resources in the world,
because at the end of the day, you're on the
same ice.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
You're playing the same game in.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
The pathway, whilst very different, turns into the same peak
of the mountain.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah for sure. I mean I also think a big
part of the equation is your why. Right me, I
was fortunate to just grow up and play hockey. It
was my escape. I loved it, like you cut my
arms off in hockey Pucks fall out. I love everything
about the game. I've never had that pressure of like, well,
if I don't have that, then what right? If I
didn't get a scholarship to college, my parents could afford
(06:47):
to send me to school, I was going to be okay,
And so I didn't have that back of my mind,
I have to succeed or else. I wanted to that.
It was driving me to really want something. But I
feel like that's a big part of people's stories too.
You look at our guest today, Ashton Harris. She didn't
have an option when she tells her story, right, that
was her way out. If she didn't have soccer to
(07:07):
fall back on, where was she going? Her life would
look completely different And a big part of the story
that she talks about when she tells hers is it's
all I had. I had to get out. I had
to do better for my family, And so I think
when you tell your story too, that's a piece of it.
Like I mean, obviously you and her also probably grew
up differently. Everybody does. But that was at the back
(07:27):
of your mind too, was I want better for me,
and you always want better. But I had a pretty
great childhood. Anything could have happened, and I knew I
would be okay. And I think that that's a super
important part of a lot of people's stories, is like
where they came from and how they get to where
they do is remarkable.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I couldn't agree with you more. I'm so excited for
that interview. We'll get to Ashland soon. But naturally we
got to figure out where we're at on the whole
spectrum of things, how we feeling, where we at one
to one hundred, what's going on.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I'm like a seventy two ooh girl, what about you?
Speaker 4 (08:06):
I'm pretty up there. I feel good.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I think I've had seven cups of coffee today, so
I'm riding a high. The kids slept till eight, Like,
there's no excuse for anyone to be below fifty in
this house.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
I could have slept till eight thirty. If Whalen didn't
wake me up at eight.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Well, this morning, harlanm wanted to give you a kiss,
and I thought, let's roll on that because you guys
have been feeling a little tense.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
There's no you guys in that. She has been not
jiving with me because she's.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
A just picking.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
She's picking and choosing right now. Yeah, I'm draft pick
number one, which is not our typical story. Usually I
don't get to win, but I am winning right now.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
All right, So we're in a good spot. We're over
one hundred.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I love that, and so let's jump into it. Our
next guest, Ashland Harris. Not only do we know her
for being a two time World Cup champion.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
A former goalkeeper for the US women's national.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Team, for Gotham City, for Orlando Pride, and someone who
is just a huge advocate for investing time, spending time,
especially with her two babies. She is a big role
model for us in the mental health space. I'm just
super excited to have her on and talk about all
this stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
We're back with Ashland right after the break.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Welcome to the pod we have Ashelan Harris. I am
so excited you are. I feel like kind of like
Maddie's so different when I meet you than what like
my mind said that you were going to be they
might be one Maddie's games. You were there with Elsie
and I saw you, and I always give Elsie a
big hug, and then I saw you and I was like,
like immediately, because you think that person is like an
(09:49):
athlete and aggress her, like this big tough personality.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Does that happen to you all the time.
Speaker 5 (09:55):
I think that people.
Speaker 6 (09:58):
Think I am a certain way based on the way
I look and the competitor and me when I play,
and I'm so the opposite off the field, like I
have all these tattoos and I'm always like ah, but
I am the biggest, soft, mushy love bunny, like I
just want to be held and squeezed and loved. And
(10:20):
I'm not like anything like I am on the field.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
It's it's you. Like you and Maddie seem so similar
to me in so many ways. I drop comparisons pack
to you to like all the people that we meet,
but people are immediately are like, oh my gosh, your
wife's brutal. I'm like, you know, she's so sensitive like,
don't make fun of her on the ice. She'll literally
think about it all night. So then we needed a game.
So then I'm and I know how sweet you are.
So I'm like, we're friends immediately. And then we all
(10:46):
meet together and Madison, I'm like, oh, let's go say
how to ask them. She's like, you don't know her.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Stop stop, I did do that. I was like, we
are not saying hi, you do not know her. She's like,
oh my god, stop, we know her.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
I was like, we're going.
Speaker 5 (11:00):
It's so funny. I love that. That cracks me up.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Because we've been running in this circle now like excitingly,
and then we all have kind of like found kinship
in that I'm excited that you're part of our mom
friend group in general.
Speaker 6 (11:14):
Yeah, you know, honestly, there's just not very many of
us athletes who are moms. There's just not that many
of us. There's a lot more nowadays who are active players.
Speaker 5 (11:26):
I live in New York. All my friends they live
in the city.
Speaker 6 (11:30):
They live this like great, beautiful, business savvy life, and
they're so accomplished, and they're.
Speaker 5 (11:35):
Like, let's get dinner, let's do this, let's do that.
Speaker 6 (11:39):
And I'm like, bitch, I have responsibilities.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
You're like, let me call it two year old an ass.
Speaker 6 (11:45):
Yeah, I can't just like schlep into the city for
three nights of fun dinner dates. I have kids stories,
I have to do carpool pickup. I have to make
pretend you know, mini mouse bow tie pasta.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Yes, Like I have to live this life.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, you're like, I can't have a file at right now,
I'm having chicken nuggets shaped like dinosaurs.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
Exactly, Babe.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
It's definitely a different life here. A lot of people
who we run with like just don't have that many kids,
which also makes it a little challenging to really build
out a village because people just like don't get it.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Well, yeah, and so you've done it, and you're doing it.
You're in the arguably peak of your playing career, right
and all of a sudden you make this huge pivot kids.
How did you know that that's what you wanted? And
kind of what did that look like? Because the resources
aren't the same, especially when you're in a same sex couple, Like,
there's different challenges that come with that. But also female
athletes don't have nearly the same resources, just in family planning,
(12:45):
in general, So how did you know that that's what
you wanted.
Speaker 6 (12:47):
So I've always really wanted a big family until I
had two kids.
Speaker 5 (12:54):
That part, yeah, I just have this like.
Speaker 6 (12:57):
Love for children and I've always been like the most
ultimate aunt. And COVID hit and everything.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Was put on pause.
Speaker 6 (13:09):
At the time, I was prepping for the Olympics in
Tokyo and that got postponed a year.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
So at this.
Speaker 6 (13:18):
Point, my plan was to finish my national team career
after this Olympic run and focus on being present in
my league with my team instead of constantly having to
work so many jobs and travel so much with the
US team. So I really wanted to experience life on
(13:43):
like both ends of the spectrum. And then COVID hit
and I was like, Okay, this beautiful plan I was
mapping out for my life makes it a little challenging.
And after having conversations with a lot of my same
sex friends, I did not want to carry based on
I have health issues. I have a tumor in my
brain that is really affected by hormones, so I can't
(14:08):
take birth controls or I have to make sure my
levels stay consistent so I can keep a monitor on it.
If the tumor continues to grow. So I knew that
that wasn't going to happen. And I also knew at
the time my wife loved the game still and wanted
to keep playing and that was her passion. So I
(14:29):
was like, I think adoption is the best route here.
And some of my friends were like, you live in Florida,
it's pretty like religious based.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
It could take years.
Speaker 6 (14:39):
Like I had friends who were on the list for
three years and still didn't have success, and I got
really panicked, and I was like, oh God, I'm already
like thirty six years old. I don't want to be
an old old mom where I'm not able to move
around or do the things I really want to do
with my kids, especially.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
As they get old.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (15:00):
And then my grandma ended up passing away in September
during COVID in twenty twenty one, and my grandma was like,
just be patient, like it's going to happen. It's going
to happen. It's going to happen. And my grandma passed
away and I matched in three weeks.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (15:21):
And it was like on my birthday October nineteenth, like
it was just all of these things just started aligning
and connecting, and it was like a really beautiful experience.
And I was like, I don't think anyone's ever ready
to be a parent, and we're just going to take
it as we come. And the lucky I was in
such a privileged position because my whole family lived in Florida,
(15:45):
my ex wife's mom lived in Florida, and my best
friend had a kid four days before Sloan was born,
so like I had everyone.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Yeah, And it.
Speaker 6 (15:55):
Was such a beautiful way to really feel supported and
have a village, because, as you both know, it's impossible
to do what we do and not be supported.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
So I was just lucky.
Speaker 6 (16:06):
And as soon as I had Sloan in my hands,
my life changed and I was like, soccer was really
just what I did. It wasn't who I was, and
sports was a way for me to get out of
my environment. It never was like, oh, I'm going to
live by the wall and the boots and this, Like
no one was more competitive than I was, but not
(16:30):
based on a winning mentality. It was a necessity mentality,
you know, not going back to food stamps, not going
back to bankruptcy and losing a home and not going
back to my beginning life that was really hard and traumatic.
No one worked harder than me because I knew I
(16:51):
had to get out of that, and in order to
do that and have opportunity, I had to be better
than everyone else. So my drive when people are like damn,
this bitch doesn't play around like yeah, my circumstance didn't
allow me to.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
This was survival.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Similarly, Maddy and I have very different whys. And then
both of you guys have lived a life.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
I've never had.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
You know, I had retired far before we started having babies,
and you know, I think playing a sport whilst being
a mom must be.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
A whole different thing.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Go through that, like, you know, you have Sloan, now
you're still playing. You move to Jersey to kind of
go through a little like era of your career.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
What does that look like like? What is the challenges there?
Speaker 6 (17:32):
I think for me it was very clear we went
back into playing. There was these bubbles we were playing
in during COVID you would literally come in train, get
your COVID tests, and you'd leave. So once everything started
to go back to normal, I remember just being like, fuck,
I can't wait for this game to be over, Like
(17:52):
I want to see my baby, or I'd be in
meetings and like the second I would be done, I
would be out the door and like ready to go
back to the kids. A lot of parents and a
lot of moms and dads are like, hey, you can
be great at both. But I am a big advocate
that if I'm living at the top and I'm like
(18:14):
the most elite, I don't want to cheat my team
and especially don't want to cheat myself. So I felt
like the last few years of my career, I just
started noticing watching the clock more and like my whole life,
I have never been like clocking the times of the
games and trainings, and I wanted to go home. And
(18:35):
I was like, Okay, I don't love this as much
as I thought I do. However, it's a weird complex
because I need to provide for my family, you know,
I have this beautiful house and I have this beautiful life,
Like I still got to make money and pay the bills.
So it was like a really interesting thing. And Florida politics.
(18:55):
After adopting to black children, it was like, Okay, I
got to get out to hear It just was a
really hard decision for me, but I knew in my heart,
I wanted to be a mom in a way that
time was the greatest gift I could give them. And
that's just showing up.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
And I think what you just said is a big
part of a lot of people don't realize, Like there's
this envy towards professional athletes right in the life that
they have and all the things and the stuff. But
it is such a mental commitment along with physical commitment,
Like if you're not one hundred percent dialed into what
you're doing, it's impossible to do it. And if there's
(19:36):
any part of you that's not fully there, like it's
just one you feel terrible, but two you just can't
compete at that level and do it you get exposed. Yeah,
so I know my experience in hockey, and obviously we're
further behind than the other sports, just in resources, et cetera.
Do you think that the resources that you had available
to you as a mom while you were playing had
(19:57):
any impact on your decision to retur hire from the
game or are there things that you did or didn't
have as a player that then once you became a mom,
you're like, oh, wow, these are things that we need
for the players.
Speaker 6 (20:08):
I mean, we didn't even have adequate resources as players,
so I wasn't expecting to be all of a sudden
rolled out the red carpet for the children. However, the
good thing was when I played for Orlando, we had
a few moms on the team, so Alex Morgan was
there with Charlie and Sidney LaRue was there with Cassius
and Rue. I feel like they really figured it out
(20:30):
just to say, hey, if you guys want to travel
with the kids, we're having this available. They would definitely
go out of their way if the kids were traveling
to pay for the tickets and have an extra room
for the nannies. But besides that, I think the NWSL
would give you five thousand a season for childcare. Five
thousand doesn't cover me for a month, yeah, wildcare. So
(20:53):
I was just like things for nothing, But yeah, I
guess you get like some perks, but like, is that
really a perk? I actually find five thousand dollars for
an entire season more offensive.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
So it wasn't an insult, You're like, you absolutely don't
know what it's like.
Speaker 6 (21:10):
On the other side, no, And then I had to
fight because I said it's in our contract. So technically
both moms because we were both players, should be getting
five thousand each, and the league fought us for it,
and I'm like, it's in the contract, does it?
Speaker 5 (21:27):
So it's just like they know.
Speaker 6 (21:29):
I think they have a lot of room to grow.
But as much as people say, oh, you can do this,
you can do that, that was the hardest time of
my life because childcare was so expensive. It's so expensive
now and we're on the road, you're jobs twenty four
to seven.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And I think that's the thing that's so beautiful but
also challenging to be like a child of a professional athlete.
It's like you have to accept a lot of no
mama time. These children adapted such a young age to
be removed but excited, like dialed in but not together.
And I think that that's something that the leagues don't
know about.
Speaker 7 (22:09):
Yeah, exactly, we'll be back right after a short break.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I want to know from the perspective of you and
pay equity and that fighting, like where does that passion
come from to like fight for more and better? You know,
as you kind of go through the equal pay case,
what are the challenges that unearths for you.
Speaker 6 (22:37):
I think it felt really safe for me because it
was a space I was very unfamiliar with. I was like,
hold up, we're suing the people that pay our bills,
Like I don't have Mommy and Daddy saying don't worry, honey,
we got you if anything happens. That was a really
scary thing for all of us to do. But like
(23:00):
most teams, we said, if we're going to do this,
we're going to do this together, and we're going to
figure it out, and we're going to take care of
each other, and no one's going to be iced out
left behind. Like we just really centered around if we
go as a unit, we will be way more successful.
So I just honestly leaned in and I listened to
(23:23):
the advice of our legal counsel and people that were
there to protect us. And I didn't quite understand the
magnitude of the moment, clearly because I'm young, I'm there
to play, I'm there to pay my bills, I'm there
to build a better life for myself and my family.
So I really just leaned in on the people who
(23:44):
were more educated on the topic, who were more lethal
in the courtroom, who knew exactly what we were doing.
I guess the more I paid attention and listened, I
was like, oh, wow, we really are getting abused in
a lot of ways, because it's so easy for someone
like myself to say, I'm going to come in, I'm
(24:07):
going to do the work, and I'm going to shut
my mouth and be happy because this is my job
and this is how I get paid.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
I think it was a leap of faith.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
I trusted the people and players around me that if
anything happened, I would be okay. The further we got
in the process and the more attention and how much
I realize it's really impacting not just our sport, but
women across all industries, I was like, whoa, this is
a moment, and I started to slowly find my voice
(24:38):
in it. So it just became a part of all
of us. It was, you know, the chance and the
crowds and everything we did. It gave us this wild
motivation that we weren't just doing this for ourselves. We
are doing this for all the women out there who
didn't feel valued, who didn't get paid fairly. And there
(24:59):
was no one more ballsy than that twenty nineteen team.
And we knew if we won and we kept winning,
that people would have to listen.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I think a big piece in it that has missed sometimes.
I've now met a number of you that were a
part of that team, and I think the thing that
stands out most to me about the core of the
soccer players is just all of your humanity and the
fact that you really are who you say you are.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
You truly believe.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
In the rising Tide mentality, but also not in a
sense of like, okay, now we've done it right, like
enough is enough. Right, we deserve to get paid. We've
proven that we are worth what we say we're worth.
But you continue to make space for other women, and
I think that there's a lot to be learned there
for other developing leagues. I'm just so blown away and
impressed at the amount of time that all of you
spend creating space, giving back, ensuring that just women's sport
(25:51):
in general succeeds, and women's sport is succeeding because of that.
You all were the catalyst that has made it happen.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I think it's so poignant that you say that we're
fighting and we're athletes like and we have the ability
to continue to win, but there's other spaces in your
life where you're getting this crazy criticism. I mean, you
guys had the President tweeting against you like that was crazy. Yeah,
and then you think about, like, you know, a different
era of your life. You're now momming, you're going through divorce,
(26:20):
you have this massive catalyst of change, and you're getting
a whole other round of hate.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
I think, you know, and I say this so often.
Speaker 6 (26:27):
I am a huge advocate of mental health, and you know,
I think social media is great until it's not. And
it's really hard, right because social media is so powerful
when it comes to amplifying beautiful messages and stories of triumph,
But there is this wild, other dark side that is
(26:51):
blood sport, and it is I want to take you
down because of.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
This, that or the other.
Speaker 6 (27:00):
I mean, we're human, Like I am human. Things hurt. Yeah,
I don't have this protective shield just because I was
successful at my job. And you know, during the process
of my divorce that people felt entitled to have opinions
(27:21):
of my life that they never experienced or walked in
my shoes is really hard. What's even worse is most
of these people, ninety percent of these people are from
our community, the queer community, the community that I put
(27:41):
everything on the line for one thing I focus so
heavily on is the safety of young queer kids who
have a higher suicide rate than I even want to
mention based on bullying and not feel a sense of
belonging and support in the hardest season of my life,
(28:02):
the community I show up for the most took the
rug from under me, and it's a really hard thing
to grasp and still show up every day and stand
in the rain with an umbrella and make sure I
am putting my best foot forward for my kids, that
(28:23):
my storm doesn't become theirs. Right and how would anyone
know it was the hardest time of my life When
I talk about this all the time, I'm very open
about this. I talk about it with my therapist and
both of you will be able to understand this. My
ability to suffer as an athlete has gone into my
(28:44):
personal life and into my world in which I have
this threshold of suffering that I carry with me all
the time. It's a very broken, damaged version of me.
I can sit in the dark in the trenches. I
can lay in the mud and feel at peace and home,
(29:07):
and that is a fucking problem.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
We have issues.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
That's a problem.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
It's so hard to explain it, Like I would work
out until I made myself throw up. What do you
think I'm going to do? If you're going to be
abusive to me, I've done it to myself more than
you ever could. I think that's kind of what you're
saying in that perspective of being an athlete that gives
you that that thing and sometimes isn't always a good
thing that we carry through life.
Speaker 6 (29:33):
I think at some point we have to put that
down and we have to understand that for me to
navigate in life. Not everyone shows up in this world
to be exceptional. And I'm learning the hard way that
in every job I do, we are so critical on
(29:56):
ourselves because we've had to be to be at the top.
We are one percenters and our craft and you have
to be exceptional every single day to win, to continue winning,
and to continue staying there for over a decade at
the highest level.
Speaker 5 (30:14):
It is not easy.
Speaker 6 (30:15):
However, I don't have to carry that mentality in every
fucking room, in every work environment.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
So it has taught me a lot.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
But I'm like doing a ton of work and I
am learning every day that I'm human and I make mistakes,
and I am not perfect, and I don't want to
raise perfect children who are scared to make mistakes. I
don't want to have my children fear, oh, I can't
fuck up, Mama's gonna kill me. I want to be
(30:46):
their first phone call that I need help or I
want to talk to.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
You about it.
Speaker 6 (30:51):
I am an open book with my kids. I think open,
honest conversations are so vital and important. And I say
that because of social media. My three year old when
we go to bed, I still ask what was the
best part of your day, what was the hardest, and
what are we going to learn from it? And is
there anything today that you feel like you want to
(31:14):
tell me? She told me this last night. I was
on the playground yesterday and someone told me they didn't
want to be my friend. It really hurt. So, like,
those are such good opportunities for human interaction and vulnerability,
even for a three year old. So I'm just trying
to build a better life for my kids for me,
all while understanding there's a big scary beast out there that, like,
(31:37):
the world is tough.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Do you think that your experiences as an athlete have
caused you to focus more on the mental health of
your kids, or is it just experiencing life in general.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
I guess yeah.
Speaker 6 (31:48):
It comes from my personal background. It comes from watching
firsthand how bad mental health and addiction affects people, to
watch the things I watched and to see it swept
so under the rug, and to normalize it in a
(32:11):
lot of ways. I think I was so lucky to
have a sport that saved me. I do not say
that lightly. I remember when I was about fifteen, my
national team coach put me in therapy with a sports psychologist.
So I would go and I would do these like
(32:32):
therapy sessions, and I would talk about what I would
see in my home, and that got me going. Right
then I was like, oh, just because I'm hurting, I
don't have to put that into my sport and hurt
other people.
Speaker 5 (32:48):
Or I don't have to suffer in silence.
Speaker 6 (32:51):
And no one spoke about it like in my house,
and no one thought it was problematic because it's from
a time and a generation that didn't have access to
mental health resources. My family sure as hell didn't have
the money.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
To pay for therapists or.
Speaker 6 (33:07):
Rehab facilities or top of the line psychiatric doctors like that.
Did not exist like my parents. I will say this,
I give my parents so much grace now. The second
I started having kids was the second I forgave my
mom of it, my dad, my brother.
Speaker 5 (33:28):
All the things I saw as a kid.
Speaker 6 (33:30):
I forgived everyone because I said, this is the hardest
thing I've ever done. I have ten times the amount
of money that they ever had in resources, and I
am still wondering if I'm going to survive this, understanding
how little they had and how much I have, and
still how big of a struggle it is every single day.
(33:52):
It is the hardest thing I've ever done to be
a parent. So when I say this, I don't want
other people to suffer in silence like I did as
a kid. And my biggest thing is access to mental
health resources are so vital and so key because right
now only certain types of people can pay two hundred
four hundred dollars an hour every week. This is why
(34:14):
I talk about it so often, because it is important.
There are people still suffering in silence, that don't feel
comfortable talking and don't have access to talking to anyone
about the deepest, darkest things going on in their minds.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
I think the forgiveness there is so beautiful because it
is really easy to be like, I can't believe you
did all the things that you did. I can't believe
you parented in this way. And I think kind of
also the forgiveness there reminds me about the forgiveness that
you must have also granted to all of these people
that gave you that kind of I would call it
(34:50):
a dark era. But you know, you still do a
crazy amount of work with human rights campaign. You still do,
and I think that's the mom in you. Is that
like infinite love? Yeah, on that vein. We end every
episode with this kind of idea of like the best
parenting advice maybe you haven't received. I feel like sometimes
as you become a mom, you're like, I wish someone
(35:11):
told me blank. So is there something that like really
puts the whole capture on it for you?
Speaker 6 (35:17):
I wish my friends, I wish my family. I wish
my village would have prepared me for how hard motherhood
was going to be. Because I was I was whiplashed.
I sort of got ask my goalkeeper coach Lloyd Yaxley.
I would show up, I would just cry at training.
He's like, why are you crying and I'm like, I
(35:38):
haven't slep in days.
Speaker 5 (35:40):
I just I don't really know, and it is hard.
Speaker 6 (35:43):
He would literally be like, go in the locker room,
you're done. Go home, you're done, Like we're done, it's fine,
And I would, I'd go home. I would go weeks
without sleeping. No one prepared me for, like, yeah, babies
don't sleep twelve hours through the night, like you won't
(36:05):
sleep for six months. And it's just the emotional toll
and the shift that it took on me. I just
don't think I was prepared. And now having a three
and a half year old, I'm like, who is this
grimlin running into this room trying to kill me?
Speaker 5 (36:23):
Like no one just prepared.
Speaker 6 (36:24):
I'm like, well, I guess this is normal, and I'm
hoping to God. Some therapist on social media who's a
child psychologist is like, this is part of it. Everyone
made it so perfect and beautiful, like, oh my God,
parently is God's greatest gift this child.
Speaker 5 (36:42):
And I was like, Kindess, is it this is so hard?
No one told me it would be so hard.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
I love that answer, and I think this whole conversation
has been incredible. I appreciate you coming on talking to
us sharing the dark sides of being a mom because
it's not glamorous. It's beautiful, but it's not glamorous. And
I think that's what we're learning. That's what we're all learning.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
That's okay.
Speaker 6 (37:03):
But I think it's just like an athlete. If you're
a successful athlete, you have a short term memory. I
am obsessed with my kids. I love them so much,
so that would be my biggest advice is definitely have
short term memory when it comes to parenting.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Well.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
It was fabulous to have this conversation.
Speaker 5 (37:22):
Thank you, and that's all we have today.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Thank you for listening. I'm on You Packer and.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
I'm Madison Packer and this is These pas Puck.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
These pax Puck is a production of Iheartwomen's Sports and
Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us Madison
and On You Packer. Emily Maronov is our senior producer
and story editor. We're mixed and mastered by Beiheith Fraser,
and our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and
Ali Perry.
Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer. I'm a recently retired pro
hockey back. I was a founding member of the National
Women's Hockey League, a Pillar in the PHL, and an
inaugural member of the PWHL Sirens.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And I'm Anya Packer, also a former pro hockey player
and now a full Madison Packer.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Stan Banya nine, Matt throw hockey and now we're married
and mom so two awesome toddlers, ages two and four.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
And this is these Pack spots where we talk about
everything for professional women's athletes, to sports, to raising children
and all the messiness in between. Hello everybody, welcome back.
You have your favorite duo here. Today we're going to
talk about all the things, but most importantly pack you
ready for my hockey hot take of the day.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Hockey hot take.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Today, we are going to talk about my favorite thing
in the world. It's that we could all get to
the tip of the mountain. But every single journey is different,
and even you know, we see the same thing between
you and I. Our journeys are very different, so it's
pretty incredible. But we all have a completely different pathway
to get to professional sports and what that looks like
for every single person is different, but we all acquire
(01:15):
the same skills and then we finally compound up to
the level of pro athlete.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah, I think it's hard because we so frequently get
asked by people, and most namely probably parents are kids
that are like in it right now, what did you do?
How did you get there? Like, everyone's story and journey
is so different. We've talked about it. I had basically
anything I wanted or needed right from a resource standpoint,
Like my dad and mom always said that they would
match my input, meaning financially, they would get me the
(01:44):
skills coaches and the ice time and the stuff that
I needed so long as I was putting in the
time and the commitment. And I think for sure me
like I was able to get further ahead and make
the teams that I was a part of because I
had access to those things. We always joke as a
family like athletically gifted wise, I'm probably the worst athlete
all around in my family, but I just always really
(02:05):
wanted it. Like I always did the extra skills stuff,
you know, I was on the extra ice and doing
that little bit extra that more. But I also had
access to like the most incredible coaches.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
All the time. Yeah, I mean can totally.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Conversely, my mom and dad were very much like, if
you want it, you have to go get it. But
that financial means didn't exist, right, It wasn't an endless
pool to choose from.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
On the coaches and this and then that.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So that's where I think, like all the roads eventually
get us to that place, because if you want all
the things, regardless, if you can afford all the best
coaches in the world, you can certainly find a way
to make it happen.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Right. You may have been able to pay for the
best gym in the entire world.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I worked at my gym, I put in hours, I
did all the things, and I then got training because
of that. And so that's like kind of the different roads,
same story sort of thing. So I just think it's
so interesting that you know, really what it comes down
to isn't resources, it's it's the will. And I love
that you said that because that's so real, right, Like
(03:05):
you didn't have to go to private school because your
parents made it so, but you also had Little Caesars.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
You're in Michigan, Well, yeah, I mean Little Caesars has
one of the best youth hockey programs in the world.
So Little Caesar's Yes Pizza Pizza is a hockey team
in the Detroit area, one of the best programs.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
At all levels in all ages.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
They are owned by the Illach family, who owns the
Red Wings, who owns Little Caesars Pizza. Little Caesar's is
like the pinnacle for what a youth hockey program wants
to look like. But I will disagree a little bit
because to your point about resources, because that is a
huge advantage. If you have the means and the ability
to invest in extra resources, you're going to get further ahead.
(03:45):
Even if you are more naturally talented and you don't
have those resources, sure you're still going to be good.
But someone that has access to those things unconditionally in
the way that I do right now with the guys
at the gym at PHP in Connecticut, like I'm training
to get faster for next season. They are the best
people in the world at what they do. It's why
we're training there. Most people can't afford to train with them.
That's an advantage, that's an.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Edge, but that's pro to pro plus.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I'm talking about youth sports like I'm talking about getting
from your youth program to a high school program into
some kind of collegiate environment. I mean, now we see
colleges scout at the club level, Like there are club
coaches going to tournaments and saying to kids, Hey, do
you want to come to this school. It doesn't necessarily
have the same ability to jump some hurdles like a
Division one program or Division III or NESCAC, etc. But
(04:33):
I still think when you're talking about not having one
hundred skills coaches, not having extra power skating ice, not
having the best trainers in the world, but just truly
giving it your all, I think on the youth to
college pathway, there's some kind of kind of like I
could just want it that bad and I could go
(04:55):
that hard and find a way there.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, I mean I think you have to have that
ed within you if you want to play at the
next level anyways, Right, you see it so many times,
how many kids get to the college level and they're like, wait,
what is this? So you have to have that extra
gear within you to even get to that point. I
just think that having access to those resources obviously helps
you maybe get there a little bit easier, or have
the tools in your toolbox when you do get there
(05:18):
to be more successful totally.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I mean, that's where I think the difference is the
most obvious is I woke up, I went to the
rink at five o'clock in the morning, I got my
power skate in. I went to school, then my city
owned the rink.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
I went to.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Public high school, played on the public hockey team. Finally
Boston University went to a Waltham Public High school game,
And the joke is, was it really a hockey game?
Like who knows at that caliber? It was just a
regular run of the mill high school. And Brian de
Roscher is used to scouting the Olympics from Marie Fulipepulin,
who ended up being my college roommate. But that's just
such a variability and lo and behold, you get a
(05:58):
recruited walk on spot or I do, and all of
those little moments where I gave things up, or I
worked filing papers, or I worked cleaning the gym made
it make sense for me.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
So, yeah, it probably wasn't as easy. There's probably a.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Lot more hours of extra stuff, but that doesn't take
away from somebody that had all the resources in the world,
because at the end of the day, you're on the
same ice.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
You're playing the same game in.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
The pathway, whilst very different, turns into the same peak
of the mountain.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah for sure. I mean I also think a big
part of the equation is your why. Right me, I
was fortunate to just grow up and play hockey. It
was my escape. I loved it, like you cut my
arms off in hockey Pucks fall out. I love everything
about the game. I've never had that pressure of like, well,
if I don't have that, then what right? If I
didn't get a scholarship to college, my parents could afford
(06:47):
to send me to school, I was going to be okay,
And so I didn't have that back of my mind,
I have to succeed or else. I wanted to that.
It was driving me to really want something. But I
feel like that's a big part of people's stories too.
You look at our guest today, Ashton Harris. She didn't
have an option when she tells her story, right, that
was her way out. If she didn't have soccer to
(07:07):
fall back on, where was she going? Her life would
look completely different And a big part of the story
that she talks about when she tells hers is it's
all I had. I had to get out. I had
to do better for my family, And so I think
when you tell your story too, that's a piece of it.
Like I mean, obviously you and her also probably grew
up differently. Everybody does. But that was at the back
(07:27):
of your mind too, was I want better for me,
and you always want better. But I had a pretty
great childhood. Anything could have happened, and I knew I
would be okay. And I think that that's a super
important part of a lot of people's stories, is like
where they came from and how they get to where
they do is remarkable.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I couldn't agree with you more. I'm so excited for
that interview. We'll get to Ashland soon. But naturally we
got to figure out where we're at on the whole
spectrum of things, how we feeling, where we at one
to one hundred, what's going on.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
I'm like a seventy two ooh girl, what about you?
Speaker 4 (08:06):
I'm pretty up there. I feel good.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I think I've had seven cups of coffee today, so
I'm riding a high. The kids slept till eight, Like,
there's no excuse for anyone to be below fifty in
this house.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
I could have slept till eight thirty. If Whalen didn't
wake me up at eight.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Well, this morning, harlanm wanted to give you a kiss,
and I thought, let's roll on that because you guys
have been feeling a little tense.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
There's no you guys in that. She has been not
jiving with me because she's.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
A just picking.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
She's picking and choosing right now. Yeah, I'm draft pick
number one, which is not our typical story. Usually I
don't get to win, but I am winning right now.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
All right, So we're in a good spot. We're over
one hundred.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I love that, and so let's jump into it. Our
next guest, Ashland Harris. Not only do we know her
for being a two time World Cup champion.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
A former goalkeeper for the US women's national.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Team, for Gotham City, for Orlando Pride, and someone who
is just a huge advocate for investing time, spending time,
especially with her two babies. She is a big role
model for us in the mental health space. I'm just
super excited to have her on and talk about all
this stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
We're back with Ashland right after the break.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Welcome to the pod we have Ashelan Harris. I am
so excited you are. I feel like kind of like
Maddie's so different when I meet you than what like
my mind said that you were going to be they
might be one Maddie's games. You were there with Elsie
and I saw you, and I always give Elsie a
big hug, and then I saw you and I was like,
like immediately, because you think that person is like an
(09:49):
athlete and aggress her, like this big tough personality.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Does that happen to you all the time.
Speaker 5 (09:55):
I think that people.
Speaker 6 (09:58):
Think I am a certain way based on the way
I look and the competitor and me when I play,
and I'm so the opposite off the field, like I
have all these tattoos and I'm always like ah, but
I am the biggest, soft, mushy love bunny, like I
just want to be held and squeezed and loved. And
(10:20):
I'm not like anything like I am on the field.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
It's it's you. Like you and Maddie seem so similar
to me in so many ways. I drop comparisons pack
to you to like all the people that we meet,
but people are immediately are like, oh my gosh, your
wife's brutal. I'm like, you know, she's so sensitive like,
don't make fun of her on the ice. She'll literally
think about it all night. So then we needed a game.
So then I'm and I know how sweet you are.
So I'm like, we're friends immediately. And then we all
(10:46):
meet together and Madison, I'm like, oh, let's go say
how to ask them. She's like, you don't know her.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Stop stop, I did do that. I was like, we
are not saying hi, you do not know her. She's like,
oh my god, stop, we know her.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
I was like, we're going.
Speaker 5 (11:00):
It's so funny. I love that. That cracks me up.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Because we've been running in this circle now like excitingly,
and then we all have kind of like found kinship
in that I'm excited that you're part of our mom
friend group in general.
Speaker 6 (11:14):
Yeah, you know, honestly, there's just not very many of
us athletes who are moms. There's just not that many
of us. There's a lot more nowadays who are active players.
Speaker 5 (11:26):
I live in New York. All my friends they live
in the city.
Speaker 6 (11:30):
They live this like great, beautiful, business savvy life, and
they're so accomplished, and they're.
Speaker 5 (11:35):
Like, let's get dinner, let's do this, let's do that.
Speaker 6 (11:39):
And I'm like, bitch, I have responsibilities.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
You're like, let me call it two year old an ass.
Speaker 6 (11:45):
Yeah, I can't just like schlep into the city for
three nights of fun dinner dates. I have kids stories,
I have to do carpool pickup. I have to make
pretend you know, mini mouse bow tie pasta.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
Yes, Like I have to live this life.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, you're like, I can't have a file at right now,
I'm having chicken nuggets shaped like dinosaurs.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
Exactly, Babe.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
It's definitely a different life here. A lot of people
who we run with like just don't have that many kids,
which also makes it a little challenging to really build
out a village because people just like don't get it.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Well, yeah, and so you've done it, and you're doing it.
You're in the arguably peak of your playing career, right
and all of a sudden you make this huge pivot kids.
How did you know that that's what you wanted? And
kind of what did that look like? Because the resources
aren't the same, especially when you're in a same sex couple, Like,
there's different challenges that come with that. But also female
athletes don't have nearly the same resources, just in family planning,
(12:45):
in general, So how did you know that that's what
you wanted.
Speaker 6 (12:47):
So I've always really wanted a big family until I
had two kids.
Speaker 5 (12:54):
That part, yeah, I just have this like.
Speaker 6 (12:57):
Love for children and I've always been like the most
ultimate aunt. And COVID hit and everything.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
Was put on pause.
Speaker 6 (13:09):
At the time, I was prepping for the Olympics in
Tokyo and that got postponed a year.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
So at this.
Speaker 6 (13:18):
Point, my plan was to finish my national team career
after this Olympic run and focus on being present in
my league with my team instead of constantly having to
work so many jobs and travel so much with the
US team. So I really wanted to experience life on
(13:43):
like both ends of the spectrum. And then COVID hit
and I was like, Okay, this beautiful plan I was
mapping out for my life makes it a little challenging.
And after having conversations with a lot of my same
sex friends, I did not want to carry based on
I have health issues. I have a tumor in my
brain that is really affected by hormones, so I can't
(14:08):
take birth controls or I have to make sure my
levels stay consistent so I can keep a monitor on it.
If the tumor continues to grow. So I knew that
that wasn't going to happen. And I also knew at
the time my wife loved the game still and wanted
to keep playing and that was her passion. So I
(14:29):
was like, I think adoption is the best route here.
And some of my friends were like, you live in Florida,
it's pretty like religious based.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
It could take years.
Speaker 6 (14:39):
Like I had friends who were on the list for
three years and still didn't have success, and I got
really panicked, and I was like, oh God, I'm already
like thirty six years old. I don't want to be
an old old mom where I'm not able to move
around or do the things I really want to do
with my kids, especially.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
As they get old.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (15:00):
And then my grandma ended up passing away in September
during COVID in twenty twenty one, and my grandma was like,
just be patient, like it's going to happen. It's going
to happen. It's going to happen. And my grandma passed
away and I matched in three weeks.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (15:21):
And it was like on my birthday October nineteenth, like
it was just all of these things just started aligning
and connecting, and it was like a really beautiful experience.
And I was like, I don't think anyone's ever ready
to be a parent, and we're just going to take
it as we come. And the lucky I was in
such a privileged position because my whole family lived in Florida,
(15:45):
my ex wife's mom lived in Florida, and my best
friend had a kid four days before Sloan was born,
so like I had everyone.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Yeah, And it.
Speaker 6 (15:55):
Was such a beautiful way to really feel supported and
have a village, because, as you both know, it's impossible
to do what we do and not be supported.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
So I was just lucky.
Speaker 6 (16:06):
And as soon as I had Sloan in my hands,
my life changed and I was like, soccer was really
just what I did. It wasn't who I was, and
sports was a way for me to get out of
my environment. It never was like, oh, I'm going to
live by the wall and the boots and this, Like
no one was more competitive than I was, but not
(16:30):
based on a winning mentality. It was a necessity mentality,
you know, not going back to food stamps, not going
back to bankruptcy and losing a home and not going
back to my beginning life that was really hard and traumatic.
No one worked harder than me because I knew I
(16:51):
had to get out of that, and in order to
do that and have opportunity, I had to be better
than everyone else. So my drive when people are like damn,
this bitch doesn't play around like yeah, my circumstance didn't
allow me to.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
This was survival.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Similarly, Maddy and I have very different whys. And then
both of you guys have lived a life.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
I've never had.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
You know, I had retired far before we started having babies,
and you know, I think playing a sport whilst being
a mom must be.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
A whole different thing.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Go through that, like, you know, you have Sloan, now
you're still playing. You move to Jersey to kind of
go through a little like era of your career.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
What does that look like like? What is the challenges there?
Speaker 6 (17:32):
I think for me it was very clear we went
back into playing. There was these bubbles we were playing
in during COVID you would literally come in train, get
your COVID tests, and you'd leave. So once everything started
to go back to normal, I remember just being like, fuck,
I can't wait for this game to be over, Like
(17:52):
I want to see my baby, or I'd be in
meetings and like the second I would be done, I
would be out the door and like ready to go
back to the kids. A lot of parents and a
lot of moms and dads are like, hey, you can
be great at both. But I am a big advocate
that if I'm living at the top and I'm like
(18:14):
the most elite, I don't want to cheat my team
and especially don't want to cheat myself. So I felt
like the last few years of my career, I just
started noticing watching the clock more and like my whole life,
I have never been like clocking the times of the
games and trainings, and I wanted to go home. And
(18:35):
I was like, Okay, I don't love this as much
as I thought I do. However, it's a weird complex
because I need to provide for my family, you know,
I have this beautiful house and I have this beautiful life,
Like I still got to make money and pay the bills.
So it was like a really interesting thing. And Florida politics.
(18:55):
After adopting to black children, it was like, Okay, I
got to get out to hear It just was a
really hard decision for me, but I knew in my heart,
I wanted to be a mom in a way that
time was the greatest gift I could give them. And
that's just showing up.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
And I think what you just said is a big
part of a lot of people don't realize, Like there's
this envy towards professional athletes right in the life that
they have and all the things and the stuff. But
it is such a mental commitment along with physical commitment,
Like if you're not one hundred percent dialed into what
you're doing, it's impossible to do it. And if there's
(19:36):
any part of you that's not fully there, like it's
just one you feel terrible, but two you just can't
compete at that level and do it you get exposed. Yeah,
so I know my experience in hockey, and obviously we're
further behind than the other sports, just in resources, et cetera.
Do you think that the resources that you had available
to you as a mom while you were playing had
(19:57):
any impact on your decision to retur hire from the
game or are there things that you did or didn't
have as a player that then once you became a mom,
you're like, oh, wow, these are things that we need
for the players.
Speaker 6 (20:08):
I mean, we didn't even have adequate resources as players,
so I wasn't expecting to be all of a sudden
rolled out the red carpet for the children. However, the
good thing was when I played for Orlando, we had
a few moms on the team, so Alex Morgan was
there with Charlie and Sidney LaRue was there with Cassius
and Rue. I feel like they really figured it out
(20:30):
just to say, hey, if you guys want to travel
with the kids, we're having this available. They would definitely
go out of their way if the kids were traveling
to pay for the tickets and have an extra room
for the nannies. But besides that, I think the NWSL
would give you five thousand a season for childcare. Five
thousand doesn't cover me for a month, yeah, wildcare. So
(20:53):
I was just like things for nothing, But yeah, I
guess you get like some perks, but like, is that
really a perk? I actually find five thousand dollars for
an entire season more offensive.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
So it wasn't an insult, You're like, you absolutely don't
know what it's like.
Speaker 6 (21:10):
On the other side, no, And then I had to
fight because I said it's in our contract. So technically
both moms because we were both players, should be getting
five thousand each, and the league fought us for it,
and I'm like, it's in the contract, does it?
Speaker 5 (21:27):
So it's just like they know.
Speaker 6 (21:29):
I think they have a lot of room to grow.
But as much as people say, oh, you can do this,
you can do that, that was the hardest time of
my life because childcare was so expensive. It's so expensive
now and we're on the road, you're jobs twenty four
to seven.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And I think that's the thing that's so beautiful but
also challenging to be like a child of a professional athlete.
It's like you have to accept a lot of no
mama time. These children adapted such a young age to
be removed but excited, like dialed in but not together.
And I think that that's something that the leagues don't
know about.
Speaker 7 (22:09):
Yeah, exactly, we'll be back right after a short break.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I want to know from the perspective of you and
pay equity and that fighting, like where does that passion
come from to like fight for more and better? You know,
as you kind of go through the equal pay case,
what are the challenges that unearths for you.
Speaker 6 (22:37):
I think it felt really safe for me because it
was a space I was very unfamiliar with. I was like,
hold up, we're suing the people that pay our bills,
Like I don't have Mommy and Daddy saying don't worry, honey,
we got you if anything happens. That was a really
scary thing for all of us to do. But like
(23:00):
most teams, we said, if we're going to do this,
we're going to do this together, and we're going to
figure it out, and we're going to take care of
each other, and no one's going to be iced out
left behind. Like we just really centered around if we
go as a unit, we will be way more successful.
So I just honestly leaned in and I listened to
(23:23):
the advice of our legal counsel and people that were
there to protect us. And I didn't quite understand the
magnitude of the moment, clearly because I'm young, I'm there
to play, I'm there to pay my bills, I'm there
to build a better life for myself and my family.
So I really just leaned in on the people who
(23:44):
were more educated on the topic, who were more lethal
in the courtroom, who knew exactly what we were doing.
I guess the more I paid attention and listened, I
was like, oh, wow, we really are getting abused in
a lot of ways, because it's so easy for someone
like myself to say, I'm going to come in, I'm
(24:07):
going to do the work, and I'm going to shut
my mouth and be happy because this is my job
and this is how I get paid.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
I think it was a leap of faith.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
I trusted the people and players around me that if
anything happened, I would be okay. The further we got
in the process and the more attention and how much
I realize it's really impacting not just our sport, but
women across all industries, I was like, whoa, this is
a moment, and I started to slowly find my voice
(24:38):
in it. So it just became a part of all
of us. It was, you know, the chance and the
crowds and everything we did. It gave us this wild
motivation that we weren't just doing this for ourselves. We
are doing this for all the women out there who
didn't feel valued, who didn't get paid fairly. And there
(24:59):
was no one more ballsy than that twenty nineteen team.
And we knew if we won and we kept winning,
that people would have to listen.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I think a big piece in it that has missed sometimes.
I've now met a number of you that were a
part of that team, and I think the thing that
stands out most to me about the core of the
soccer players is just all of your humanity and the
fact that you really are who you say you are.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
You truly believe.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
In the rising Tide mentality, but also not in a
sense of like, okay, now we've done it right, like
enough is enough. Right, we deserve to get paid. We've
proven that we are worth what we say we're worth.
But you continue to make space for other women, and
I think that there's a lot to be learned there
for other developing leagues. I'm just so blown away and
impressed at the amount of time that all of you
spend creating space, giving back, ensuring that just women's sport
(25:51):
in general succeeds, and women's sport is succeeding because of that.
You all were the catalyst that has made it happen.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I think it's so poignant that you say that we're
fighting and we're athletes like and we have the ability
to continue to win, but there's other spaces in your
life where you're getting this crazy criticism. I mean, you
guys had the President tweeting against you like that was crazy. Yeah,
and then you think about, like, you know, a different
era of your life. You're now momming, you're going through divorce,
(26:20):
you have this massive catalyst of change, and you're getting
a whole other round of hate.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
I think, you know, and I say this so often.
Speaker 6 (26:27):
I am a huge advocate of mental health, and you know,
I think social media is great until it's not. And
it's really hard, right because social media is so powerful
when it comes to amplifying beautiful messages and stories of triumph,
But there is this wild, other dark side that is
(26:51):
blood sport, and it is I want to take you
down because of.
Speaker 5 (26:58):
This, that or the other.
Speaker 6 (27:00):
I mean, we're human, Like I am human. Things hurt. Yeah,
I don't have this protective shield just because I was
successful at my job. And you know, during the process
of my divorce that people felt entitled to have opinions
(27:21):
of my life that they never experienced or walked in
my shoes is really hard. What's even worse is most
of these people, ninety percent of these people are from
our community, the queer community, the community that I put
(27:41):
everything on the line for one thing I focus so
heavily on is the safety of young queer kids who
have a higher suicide rate than I even want to
mention based on bullying and not feel a sense of
belonging and support in the hardest season of my life,
(28:02):
the community I show up for the most took the
rug from under me, and it's a really hard thing
to grasp and still show up every day and stand
in the rain with an umbrella and make sure I
am putting my best foot forward for my kids, that
(28:23):
my storm doesn't become theirs. Right and how would anyone
know it was the hardest time of my life When
I talk about this all the time, I'm very open
about this. I talk about it with my therapist and
both of you will be able to understand this. My
ability to suffer as an athlete has gone into my
(28:44):
personal life and into my world in which I have
this threshold of suffering that I carry with me all
the time. It's a very broken, damaged version of me.
I can sit in the dark in the trenches. I
can lay in the mud and feel at peace and home,
(29:07):
and that is a fucking problem.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
We have issues.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
That's a problem.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
It's so hard to explain it, Like I would work
out until I made myself throw up. What do you
think I'm going to do? If you're going to be
abusive to me, I've done it to myself more than
you ever could. I think that's kind of what you're
saying in that perspective of being an athlete that gives
you that that thing and sometimes isn't always a good
thing that we carry through life.
Speaker 6 (29:33):
I think at some point we have to put that
down and we have to understand that for me to
navigate in life. Not everyone shows up in this world
to be exceptional. And I'm learning the hard way that
in every job I do, we are so critical on
(29:56):
ourselves because we've had to be to be at the top.
We are one percenters and our craft and you have
to be exceptional every single day to win, to continue winning,
and to continue staying there for over a decade at
the highest level.
Speaker 5 (30:14):
It is not easy.
Speaker 6 (30:15):
However, I don't have to carry that mentality in every
fucking room, in every work environment.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
So it has taught me a lot.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
But I'm like doing a ton of work and I
am learning every day that I'm human and I make mistakes,
and I am not perfect, and I don't want to
raise perfect children who are scared to make mistakes. I
don't want to have my children fear, oh, I can't
fuck up, Mama's gonna kill me. I want to be
(30:46):
their first phone call that I need help or I
want to talk to.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
You about it.
Speaker 6 (30:51):
I am an open book with my kids. I think open,
honest conversations are so vital and important. And I say
that because of social media. My three year old when
we go to bed, I still ask what was the
best part of your day, what was the hardest, and
what are we going to learn from it? And is
there anything today that you feel like you want to
(31:14):
tell me? She told me this last night. I was
on the playground yesterday and someone told me they didn't
want to be my friend. It really hurt. So, like,
those are such good opportunities for human interaction and vulnerability,
even for a three year old. So I'm just trying
to build a better life for my kids for me,
all while understanding there's a big scary beast out there that, like,
(31:37):
the world is tough.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Do you think that your experiences as an athlete have
caused you to focus more on the mental health of
your kids, or is it just experiencing life in general.
Speaker 5 (31:47):
I guess yeah.
Speaker 6 (31:48):
It comes from my personal background. It comes from watching
firsthand how bad mental health and addiction affects people, to
watch the things I watched and to see it swept
so under the rug, and to normalize it in a
(32:11):
lot of ways. I think I was so lucky to
have a sport that saved me. I do not say
that lightly. I remember when I was about fifteen, my
national team coach put me in therapy with a sports psychologist.
So I would go and I would do these like
(32:32):
therapy sessions, and I would talk about what I would
see in my home, and that got me going. Right
then I was like, oh, just because I'm hurting, I
don't have to put that into my sport and hurt
other people.
Speaker 5 (32:48):
Or I don't have to suffer in silence.
Speaker 6 (32:51):
And no one spoke about it like in my house,
and no one thought it was problematic because it's from
a time and a generation that didn't have access to
mental health resources. My family sure as hell didn't have
the money.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
To pay for therapists or.
Speaker 6 (33:07):
Rehab facilities or top of the line psychiatric doctors like that.
Did not exist like my parents. I will say this,
I give my parents so much grace now. The second
I started having kids was the second I forgave my
mom of it, my dad, my brother.
Speaker 5 (33:28):
All the things I saw as a kid.
Speaker 6 (33:30):
I forgived everyone because I said, this is the hardest
thing I've ever done. I have ten times the amount
of money that they ever had in resources, and I
am still wondering if I'm going to survive this, understanding
how little they had and how much I have, and
still how big of a struggle it is every single day.
(33:52):
It is the hardest thing I've ever done to be
a parent. So when I say this, I don't want
other people to suffer in silence like I did as
a kid. And my biggest thing is access to mental
health resources are so vital and so key because right
now only certain types of people can pay two hundred
four hundred dollars an hour every week. This is why
(34:14):
I talk about it so often, because it is important.
There are people still suffering in silence, that don't feel
comfortable talking and don't have access to talking to anyone
about the deepest, darkest things going on in their minds.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
I think the forgiveness there is so beautiful because it
is really easy to be like, I can't believe you
did all the things that you did. I can't believe
you parented in this way. And I think kind of
also the forgiveness there reminds me about the forgiveness that
you must have also granted to all of these people
that gave you that kind of I would call it
(34:50):
a dark era. But you know, you still do a
crazy amount of work with human rights campaign. You still do,
and I think that's the mom in you. Is that
like infinite love? Yeah, on that vein. We end every
episode with this kind of idea of like the best
parenting advice maybe you haven't received. I feel like sometimes
as you become a mom, you're like, I wish someone
(35:11):
told me blank. So is there something that like really
puts the whole capture on it for you?
Speaker 6 (35:17):
I wish my friends, I wish my family. I wish
my village would have prepared me for how hard motherhood
was going to be. Because I was I was whiplashed.
I sort of got ask my goalkeeper coach Lloyd Yaxley.
I would show up, I would just cry at training.
He's like, why are you crying and I'm like, I
(35:38):
haven't slep in days.
Speaker 5 (35:40):
I just I don't really know, and it is hard.
Speaker 6 (35:43):
He would literally be like, go in the locker room,
you're done. Go home, you're done, Like we're done, it's fine,
And I would, I'd go home. I would go weeks
without sleeping. No one prepared me for, like, yeah, babies
don't sleep twelve hours through the night, like you won't
(36:05):
sleep for six months. And it's just the emotional toll
and the shift that it took on me. I just
don't think I was prepared. And now having a three
and a half year old, I'm like, who is this
grimlin running into this room trying to kill me?
Speaker 5 (36:23):
Like no one just prepared.
Speaker 6 (36:24):
I'm like, well, I guess this is normal, and I'm
hoping to God. Some therapist on social media who's a
child psychologist is like, this is part of it. Everyone
made it so perfect and beautiful, like, oh my God,
parently is God's greatest gift this child.
Speaker 5 (36:42):
And I was like, Kindess, is it this is so hard?
No one told me it would be so hard.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
I love that answer, and I think this whole conversation
has been incredible. I appreciate you coming on talking to
us sharing the dark sides of being a mom because
it's not glamorous. It's beautiful, but it's not glamorous. And
I think that's what we're learning. That's what we're all learning.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
That's okay.
Speaker 6 (37:03):
But I think it's just like an athlete. If you're
a successful athlete, you have a short term memory. I
am obsessed with my kids. I love them so much,
so that would be my biggest advice is definitely have
short term memory when it comes to parenting.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Well.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
It was fabulous to have this conversation.
Speaker 5 (37:22):
Thank you, and that's all we have today.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Thank you for listening. I'm on You Packer and.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
I'm Madison Packer and this is These pas Puck.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
These pax Puck is a production of Iheartwomen's Sports and
Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us Madison
and On You Packer. Emily Maronov is our senior producer
and story editor. We're mixed and mastered by Beiheith Fraser,
and our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and
Ali Perry.
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