The End of the Road

Asheville, NC: Teresa Bradley still lives in the house where she grew up and where she raised her twin sons, Michael and Timothy Dutcher. In the final visit of the journey, Teresa and Tim tell the story of Michael’s life and how his death continues to haunt their family.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Third Squad is a documentary podcast about war. Every episode
contains strong language and descriptions of violence that may not
be suitable for all listeners. All right, so you're on tape. Wonderful, alright,
So first, uh, what's your full name? Michael Joseph Dutcher.

(00:21):
Sometimes you meet people and without knowing exactly why, you
just have this sense that there'll be a part of
your life for a long time, maybe forever. I felt
that way about Michael Dutcher when I met him at
patrol based fires in two thousand eleven twenty two. And
what's your hometown? Asheville, North Carolina, Michael Joseph Dutcher, Asheville,

(00:45):
North Carolina. That name and that lazy drawl had been
playing on a loop in my head for a decade,
illustrated by a grainy black and white portrait of a
tired young marine with dorky square frame glasses and a
cardboard tray of lop on his lap. The first thing
is why is showing the marine clerp? I honestly, I

(01:07):
have no idea anymore. By the time I asked Dutcher
that question, I didn't really know why I was doing
what I was doing. Anymore either. It was my third
fighting season in Afghanistan as a journalist, and I had
my own year long combat tour in a Rock under
my belt too. I'd seen a lot of death and

(01:29):
a lot of heartbreak. None of it seemed to be
making anything better for anyone. Been risking my life to
right about it and photograph it. Had started to see
him as reckless and as pointless as the war itself.
I was looking for a way out, and when Dutcher
got killed, I found it. His death shook me into
believing that I could walk away. So I did, but

(01:52):
I never felt good about it, and I never forgot
about Dutcher. I'm Elliott Woods. This is Third Squad Episode twelve,
The end of the Road. What a beautiful at all stream, Yeah,

(02:22):
what a beautiful day. I thought about Dutcher's family a
lot in the years after he died. At some point
I put the recording of our interview on a disc
along with the photos I took of him and Sanging,
and mailed it to his mother, Teresa. About a month later,
I got a note back from Teresa's sister in law, Paula.
She said that if I ever wanted to talk Teresa

(02:44):
would be willing. She wrote down a phone number and
an address, and after all this time, I'm finally here,
very end of the dead end. Right that's that? Wow,
what a view of the mountains over there. Tommy and
I park in front of a one story brick house

(03:04):
with a wide porch framed by heavy columns. There's a
steep drop off on one side which plunges down into
one of those suburban forests that must have been like
an infinite wilderness to Michael and his twin brother Timothy
when they were kids. And there's an old above ground
pool on the other side of the house, which must
have been filled with laughter all summer long when the
boys were little. All right here, I can't remember ever

(03:31):
being more nervous than I am at this particular moment,
walking up these front steps that Dutcher must have climbed
a thousand times. I'm preparing to ask his mother to
relive the worst moment of her life, and I can
barely imagine how nervous she must be. Martin instead of Teresa,
were greeted by an older man with a grizzled goatee

(03:52):
who's sitting out in the sun reading a book. I'm Elliott.
By the way, I'm Ron. Ron Bradley and Teresa met
and married a few years ago. Michael Dutcher never met,
but he lives here now, and he opens the door
for us. Good morning. Teresa appears at the kitchen door
and makes her way over to us. There. Teresa's small,

(04:21):
with freckles and piercing blue eyes. Michael had brown eyes,
but he had Teresa's broad cheekbones, and he had her
gentle Appalachian drawl. I can hear the weariness in Teresa's voice,
and I know she's not exactly excited that I'm here.
Is this the house that Michael and Timothy grew up in?
Babies here? Yeah, we moved here when they were five

(04:44):
years old. This is my mom and dad's house. The
house is dark inside, with hardwood floors in a long
hallway stretching toward the kitchen, where a big picture window
looks out on the trees. There's a sitting area near
the front door with chairs, a ouch in a fireplace.
Family photos line the mantle. I noticed there isn't one

(05:05):
of Michael and his Marine Corps dress blues, but there
is a pair of framed pictures of Michael and his
twin brother Timothy, dressed in tuxedos for senior prom. Except
for Michael's rounder face and cleft chin, the boys look
almost identical. Okay, so would this be your most comfortable
place to sit? Or here? Or where do you think
you want to be? Fine? We sit down by the

(05:29):
fireplace to talk. At long last, I made it. I
reassured Teresa that she's in control and I'm here to listen,
just like I've done with all the Third Squad Marines.
I tell her we don't have to talk about anything
she doesn't want to talk about, and we can stop
whenever she wants to. That's when an old fashioned clock
chimes above the mantel. Theresa tells me the clock goes

(05:55):
off every fifteen minutes. Actually, this is great because I
have a tendency to for get about time entirely, so
this will really keep me on my toes. We start
by talking about Teresa's family's deep roots in this area. Oh.
I grew up in West Asheville. My dad was an
engineer for Southern Railway. I was in this house all
the way through middle school and high school. These days,

(06:20):
West Asheville is known for its breweries in the Arts district,
nestled between the railroad tracks and the French Broad River,
but Teresa says it was a struggling, working class neighborhood
when she was growing up, nicknamed worst Asheville by kids
from wealthier parts of town and known for the shuttered
businesses on Haywood Road in the high crime rate. Teresa

(06:41):
has lived her entire life here. It's where she got
her first job as a teaching assistant, which led to
a career teaching disabled children, and it's where she met
and married a man named David Dutcher. He actually lived
in the neighborhood, so I had known him off and
on for years and we just we're best friends. And

(07:01):
then you and David moved back into this house. We did.
My dad got very sick um he had emphysema, so
we had to put him in nursing home. So we
moved back in this house and my mother lived with us.
It was in the spring of that Teresa found out
she was pregnant. And it was an adventure right from
the start. So what did you think when you found

(07:24):
out that you were going to have twins? Almost had
a heart attack and come to find out that twins
ran on both sides of the family. But um, yeah,
it was a big shock. The twins were born on
a Monday, November one. They were actually a month early.
Michael was three pounds fifteen ounces and Timothy was four

(07:47):
pounds ten ounces. That's tiny, they're they're a little bitty things. Yep,
Michael and Timothy grew from little bitty things into a
real handful. Oh gosh, it was a mess. They file
all the time, argued, didn't get along. It was a mess.
One minute they were trying to kill each other, the
next minute they were hanging out reading books together. So

(08:10):
to his company too. With company, they would do the
craziest things. They would take the trampoline and slide it
beside the pool and jump off the trampoline into the pool.
They were boys. That sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah.
Michael was really easy to get along with, super laid back.

(08:35):
Nothing bothered him. Timothy, Oh gosh, she'd argue with the
brick wall. Tell me about their friendship. Tell me about
their bond as brothers, and how you saw that bond
take shape over the years. Oh, they would do everything together,
but for some reason they would get into an argument

(08:55):
god only knows what, and then there'd be a fight breakout.
Did they actually wrestle and fight physically or yes, they
would actually get into fights and I'd have to break
it up. Yeah, but the next thing I know, they'd
be back playing again. They had bump beds in their bedroom,
and it would be funny because even though we had

(09:16):
bump beds, you would go in there and they'd be
sleeping together. Really when they were little, yeah that's pretty cute. Yeah, yeah,
they always slept together for some reason. By the time
the boys got to high school, they found ways to
differentiate themselves. Timothy played upright bass in the strings program

(09:36):
and Michael played trumpet in the marching band. They spent
time alone with different friend groups, but they were on
the wrestling team together, and like Jeffrey Lopez up in
New Jersey, they both joined Junior r OTC. Tell people
who don't know what is r OTC. In high school,
you learned how to drill, you learn how to march,
you learn how to flip the guns, and basically it's

(09:59):
like you're am boot camp. You learn all the military ranks,
learn all the history, learn all the background. They had
a study hall they went to mud runs six Flags.
I mean, it was just like a little community, and
the boys absolutely fell in love with r TC. They

(10:20):
would spend every waking minute there. Jr o TC is
partially funded by the Department of Defense, with the official
objective of instilling leadership skills and civic values like honor
and integrity and young people. The instructors are legally barred
from recruiting, but it's still a pipeline into the military
for many of the more than five thousand teens across

(10:40):
the country who were enrolled at any given time. I
wanted Timothy to go to RTC because Timothy, it was
a handful, so I feeled I'd be really good for Timothy.
And I don't know why Michael just decided he wanted
to join our TC, but he originally wanted to be
an architect. Did either your family or David's family have

(11:02):
a military background? Not really. I mean, my dad was
in the war, the Korean War band, David's dad was
in the military, But the boys never had any interest
in it whatsoever. Then, all of a sudden in high school,
and I don't know if it was so much joining
the military as it was they just like being part

(11:24):
of that community. So what did you think about their
participation in our OTC. I guess, if I had to
admit it, I was very naive. I had no idea
that that would lead to a military career. I just
felt it was like banned or strings something else. It

(11:47):
was just an extracurricular activity. So when they joined r
O t C. The war in Iraq was just starting.
What do you remember about that time period? What do
you remember about watching these wars start and what you
were thinking at the time. I remember, um my sister

(12:09):
in law, we discussed several times if there's a draft,
were moving to Canada. Our boys aren't going to go
in the military. So honestly, I didn't pay any attention
because during that time period that was so focused on David.

(12:29):
The boy's father. David was ill for much of their childhood.
When he was feeling well, the family would go on
camping trips in the Blue Ridge Mountains and the boys
would help David work on his old Camaro. That might
be where Michael picked up the knack for fixing things
that he was famous for in Third Squad. But by
the time the boys hit their teenage years, their dad's

(12:50):
health was deteriorating rapidly. David was sick for a long
time him. He had a mild stroke and it slowly

(13:11):
developed a congestive heart failure. That was back when the
boys were in elementary school, so he'd been sick for
quite a while. It just kind of slowly progressed got
worse and worse. David died in two thousand five, when

(13:37):
Michael and Timothy were sophomores in high school. He died
from congestive heart failure with venus stasis ulcers. Basically, he
died from the inside out. And I imagine that was
pretty difficult time for you and the boys. Yeah, it was.

(14:01):
It was a struggle. What effect do you think that

(14:24):
had on Michael and Timothy? M They were both very angry,
both very angry as a mother with the extra responsibility
of not just caring for yourself but also shepherding these

(14:46):
two young boys through the loss of their father and
his sickness. What was that like for you? Honestly, they
were at home that much between band. Michael had to
play in every football game when he wasn't in band.

(15:09):
They were volunteering for everything that or TC had and
lucky for me, I didn't really have to worry about him.
You know, they had each other and then they had um,
you know, first sergeant when he kind of looked out

(15:30):
for him, and so I always knew where they were,
and I was I guess I was just like in
survival mode. Yeah, what kind of questions do you remember
Michael and Timothy asking you about what was happening when
David was sick and when you eventually lost him. Timothy's
big question was why didn't got answer my prayers? That

(15:55):
was Timothy big questioned. Michael never said anything until Christmas.
He died in October, and Christmas Day Michael finally broke down,
but he never asked any questions. He never said anything.

(16:17):
He just cried and cried. How was it? H He
was a very quiet young man. So tell me about

(16:53):
when Michael first told you that he was thinking about
and listening. I had no idea until Michael's senior year,
and then he dropped the bomb. He said he wanted

(17:13):
to join the military. I did not want him to,
and he said if I didn't approve that, he would
never forgive me for not letting him join. That was it?

(17:51):
When was that? Right before he graduated? Was he eighteen?
Oh yeah, so he didn't actually need your permission at
that point. Nope. So what permission do you think he
was asking you for? Then, if I would be okay

(18:19):
for him to leave? So why didn't you want him
to join? Because you never know what's going to happen,
and I was just worried that something that's going to happen.

(18:42):
And by that time, did you have a sense of
what was going on in Iraq and Afghanistan? I did,
But at the same time, I had a little bit
of hope because they were going to bring the troops
home after they called Osama bin Lana whatever. They're going
to bring the troops home, and so I had that little,

(19:04):
you know, ray of hope that he wouldn't go over there,
you know, that that it wouldn't actually be a war
that he would go into. So tell me about when

(19:26):
he left for boot camp. Tell me what you remember
about that. We all went down to the recruiter station.
Actually you have a picture him leaving. Wow. We signed

(19:48):
the papers and we all went out to eat, and
we all hung out with him and went back to
the recruiter station where the van was and Paul had
all these flags and everything. Yeah, and then we gave
this big old sand off and you, Candela, he was happy.

(20:13):
In the photo, Michael's wearing a black golf shirt buttoned
to the top. He and Timothy have their arms around Teresa,
whose eyes are hidden behind dark sunglasses. So you saw
him getting the van pull off with this smile on
his face? And what were you thinking at the time?

(20:38):
Have you lost your mind? No? Um, I was just
had to see him go. We'll be back after the break.

(21:54):
There's a pull down staircase in the back hallway of
Teresa's house that leads up to the attic. We fall.
We're up through the narrow entrance into the dimly lit space,
where she points out a few plastic tubs nestled among
boxes and crates of random stuff. If you want to
look at any miss, you can. It is everything I
had from Michael, all the boxes, all the letters. These

(22:16):
tubs contain everything the Marine Corps returned to Theresa after
Michael died. Yeah, this is his uniform and more letters,
more of paperwork. You just keep them up here. I
don't want to look at him. He is a graduation

(22:40):
photo from hercruit training. Yeah, and this is when we
were in California. What they do is this is the base,
and then this goes right here, and they put Michael's
shoes right here. Then they put a good right here,

(23:02):
and then they put the hamlet on top. And that's
his real helmet. It's the base of Michael's battlefield cross
from the memorial service at Camp Pendleton. Teresa tosses it
back into the tub. That's your gold star flag. Teresa
is what's known as a gold Star mother, a mom
whose child died while serving in the military during wartime.

(23:25):
Gold Star families get a little white flag with a
bright red border and a gold star in the center.
Some people hang these up. We didn't want to do that.
Stare look at them. Along with Michael's clothes and personal belongings,

(23:46):
there are stacks of papers and certificates and hard bound folders.
We take the tubs downstairs for a better look. I'll
go first and you can hand it down to you.
Back in the sitting area by the fireplace, we start
sorting through the material. So this is this is all.
Oh yeah, that's my handwriting right there. I find the
CD that I sent Teresa with Michael's interview and photos.

(24:13):
Teresa is going through a stack of official remembrance certificates
she received from Marine Corps after Michael died. Sometimes she
still gets similar certificates from veterans organizations. What we're saying about,
they send you these things? I send him like a
whole about sim So this is from one five and

(24:34):
this is a Navy a Marine Corps Achievement Medal for
heroic achievement on twenty June, he bravely fought for seven
hours driving the enemy out of the platoon battle space.
Have you read this before? Yeah? Have you? One day
I'll be strong enough to do it. So you said,

(24:55):
they send these things thinking they'll make you feel better,
but they don't. I don't replace the Chiel. So do

(25:38):
you remember Michael telling you that he was getting sent
to Afghanistan? I do. He saved it once he got there,
and he would write to me and tell me where
to send letters do And what went through your mind
at that time? Oh? Lot of praying this a lot

(26:02):
of praying. I asked the Lord to put a hedge
of protection around Michael and bring him home safe and
sound mentally and healthy. Did he talk to you about

(26:24):
what they would be doing there or what the mission
was or why they needed to go there or anything
like that. He told me that they were going to
train the people lived in the village how to take
care of themselves, basically. And did he tell you anything
about what was going on with the unit that was

(26:45):
already there where he would be going or nothing. What
did you know about what the US was doing in
Afghanistan at that time? All I knew was they were
trying to bring the groops home, apparently corn to the
news that everything had calmed down and they were going
to start pulling all the man out. So I would

(27:11):
like to know what your communication was like with Michael
while he was in Afghanistan and what he told you
about what they were doing there. We were constantly writting letters,
I mean letter after letter after letter. Everybody was writting
the letters at least three or four times a week
and sending him care packages and all kinds of stuff,
and he was written back and um, he never told

(27:34):
us anything bad it was happening. So you were getting
handwritten letters from Michael. What about phone calls? Just letters?
So that recording that I made was the only time
you heard his voice after he left. It was here's

(27:56):
Michael back and sang and talking about his plans for
after the Marine Corps. Since I've joined the Marine Corps,
I've decided, uh, I want to follow my mom's footsteps
and become a teacher because I really like what she does.
Right now, I'm just trying to figure out what subject
I wanna teach. Right now, I'm thinking, uh, I definitely
want to teach high school. Might be an autism specialist

(28:17):
like my mom, or teach science or history. Cool. Do
you remember him talking about wanting to be a teacher someday?
That was a surprise to me. I was blown away.

(28:40):
I had no idea. That boy must have kept a
lot bottled up that he didn't talk about, but I
had no idea, and that just just throwed me to death. Well,
I'm really glad that we were able to have that conversation.

(29:03):
And I remember him telling me that, I remember that
very vividly, saying that he wanted to come home and
he wanted to go to college and study history and
become a teacher like his mom. But he didn't go home.
No mhm. Ten days it's all he had left. And

(29:32):
we told him, never volunteer, No matter what you do,
never volunteer. And what did he do? He volunteered. I

(30:19):
want to ask you about the day when you found
out that Michael had been killed, and I just want
you to reconstruct that day for me, to the best
of your ability. Oh, it was like today, It's a
beautiful day. How was it work? And I was in

(30:43):
the classroom teaching, and Timothy's girlfriend, Amber called and said
that I needed to get home, that there were three
men at the house and they needed to talk to me.

(31:12):
We've seen all the different movies, haven't we do we
know exactly what happened in those three men show up.
So I walked out of school and got in my

(31:32):
car and drove straight home. And there they were standing
in the living room, right here, going right there. They
were dressed to the tea. Now their dressed blues, had

(31:55):
their little hats on. I went hysterical. Timsey picked up
a coffee table through across the room. It's shattered everywhere.

(32:16):
I went from crying to laughing hysterically. That poor man.
I think I scared him to death. I just couldn't
believe it. Just it's like the whole world was crumbling

(32:38):
in I was so mad. Obama promised to bring him
home after he called Osama ben Loud or whatever. Oh
I was it cussing like a sailor, and one of
the guys asked me to stop cussing the president. I

(33:02):
guess it's not nice to cut the president. And then
we just started calling all the family members m h.

(33:29):
Once things had settled down, two of the casualty officers
left and one stayed behind. We had to sit the
dining room table and he had this big book and
it said what to expect of the coming days and
next thing I know, he's going over all this military

(33:50):
stuff with all forms and regulations and forms and regulations
and talking about Michael. Stuff would be shipped here, and

(34:10):
it's so much twitching hour. M you were Michael's next
of ken, right, so you had to fill out the
paperwork for the retrieval of his remains and the life

(34:31):
insurance and all that stuff, and they make they make
you do that right then and there. That's the military
for you. Yeah. We had to get in touch with
the funeral home, We had to get in touch with
the memorial where Michael's buried. The bank I can show

(34:55):
you the notebook is huge. Did they tell you anything
about what happened? M oh, he read it to me,
the full report. Nip. Apparently he tripped on a I

(35:15):
d it's covered up. Then he jumped over it and
the tip of his boot caught it. And did they
tell you anything else about that? The helicopter came and
picked him up, and they thought he was going to
make it, but once they got him in the air,
he didn't make it. And what happened the rest of

(35:50):
that day we're in the South, they by started bringing food. Yeah,
that's what they do. Um I called school, Tom, I
want me back. That's all we did all day was paperwork.

(36:28):
Earlier we talked about when David died and how you
had to go into survival mode. How was losing Michael different?
What was the aftermath of that like for you? Oh,
it was totally different because it was all logistics, you know,

(36:49):
made sure everything had to be perfect. I had to
have your eyes doded, your teas crossed, We had to
go to the courthouse. I wasn't by myself, Umile Aazon
kept coming over and coming over. I think he's spent
like a week here, so there's a lot of work
to do. Oh gosh, it was insane. What can you

(37:10):
tell me about the memorial. We had to go out
and meet the airplane m HM, and they brought the
body home. And originally I wanted an open casket, and
the guy said, well, I don't think you do. I said, well,

(37:32):
let's wait and see. And so we had to wait
till they do all that stuff they do to him,
and they showed us and it didn't look like Michael
that we decided not to have an open gasket. I
just didn't look like even when they did all that stuff.

(37:55):
So a lot of mothers and fathers are never able
to see their children when they've been killed in war.
Why not because there's not enough left to see. So
Michael didn't look the same. But do you think you

(38:17):
needed to see him? Do you think it was important
for you to see him? I need to see my baby.

(38:48):
The funeral took place at Trinity Baptist Church in Asheville
on Friday, September eleven, a few days after Michael's platoon
fired a three volley salute for him halfway around the
world and sang yeah. He was buried with full military
honors at Western Carolina State Veterans Cemetery in Black Mountain.

(39:23):
So when did things quiet down. When did the food
stop coming? And when did you start to feel like,
you know, the event was over? I guess and you
just had to live with it now. Um, it was
about a week and a half everything kind of started

(39:45):
slowing down. And so what was that like? Um? Black
right now? Just all by yourself. I was still at work.
I think I took two weeks off altogether. So I
had to kind of start planning to go back to

(40:05):
work facing the crowds, you know, no one that you
come to do it all over again when he got
back to work, all the explanations. Here we go again. Yeah,
what kind of things did people ask you? Oh, they
don't ask you like, I'm so sorry? There anything I

(40:26):
can do? Do you need anything? All that stuff? And
what did you say? I'm fine? Was that true? Of course?
I'm fine, no matter what happens, I'm fine. Where are
you fine? Um? Yeah, I mean as fine as I

(40:51):
could be. What could I do? Has it changed at
all over the years? It's been ten years now, has
it changed at all? Um? No? I actually started spring cleaning,
as you can tell, and I started going through some

(41:12):
stuff and about some of his stuff and I'll look
at for a little bit and cry for a little
bit and hide it away. But I still won't go
to his grave. It's as fresh as the date was.

(41:35):
A lot of that's probably the same from w l OS.
Teresa's flipping through memento books from Michael's elementary school years. Now.
They've got his report cards, notes on his field trips,
and photos from his activities. Say that's my baby. I
think I was just so happy all the time. That's

(41:56):
him in the school play. Was he a teenage meaning
ninn a turtle playing soccer? That he was just a
happy child. That was a serious part of him. Oh,
this is him. This is his r OTC picture. There
are also piles and piles of cards from total strangers,

(42:16):
hand addressed to Teresa and meticulous script, many still in
their unopened envelopes. These are all in the car. My gosh,
these are just all the constellation cards from Wow. Where
do you think they get your name and number and stuff?
I had no idea. The sweet old ladies, that's you know,

(42:40):
that's what they do. They sit around and write letters.
You can tell their old look at their hand writing.
It's beautiful. Teresa's husband, Ron has come in from the
porch with flash the dog. He wears a pained expression
on his face as he watches Teresa sift through the
almost comically large stack of cards. You know, it's some

(43:00):
little old lady that meets every Saturday, and it hurts
Terson look at the cars and cried, you know, and
I thinking I'll put him up. Yeah, I got Tenda.

(43:21):
I look at their name, Tory. Oh that's so sweet.
I always say the same thing. What did they say,
just letting you know that we're thinking about you at
this time. Thank you for your son's sacrifice. What do
you think about that word sacrifice? Sacrifice? Well, who did

(43:44):
he sacrifice himself for a bunch of people that don't
even appreciate him. When he was going out, the guy
in front of him was a Taliban scout. They said
that when he got to where the I D was,

(44:05):
the Taliban scout stopped, went around it because he knew
where it was, and took off rutten and left him.
He knew exactly where it was, and the guys started
chasing him, and that's how they tripped on him. That
man was supposed to be helping them, but he didn't.

(44:28):
He knew where that was, and he still let that happen.
So they it was he was senseless. It was senseless,
he was nast to them. Then well look what happened.
How do you balance you know, all of the praise

(44:50):
of Michael's service that you get in these letters, people saying,
you know, thank you, the more patriotic forms of memorial
about you know that's so great. The like the phrase
the ultimate sacrifice, for example, is one that always sticks
out in my head. How do you balance that with

(45:10):
your sense that, as you said, it was a senseless death.
How do you hold those two things together? I buried away.
I look at the letters. I'm like, oh, that sweet
little lady. I bet you they sit around the circle
and drink tea and wrote letters. That's so sweet her
and I put it away. I don't want to deal

(45:32):
with it at all. There's no balance. I don't want
I don't want to talk about it. It's in the attic.
Maybe one day I will not. Right now, well, we
are talking about it now, and I wouldn't be, but
if you're such a nice man. I even thought about

(45:55):
canceling it several times, and Timsy is like, mom, just
do and I'm like, okay, fine, I will well, I
got the sense that maybe you were thinking about canceling.
A couple of times I've picked up on that, like
stir in the pot. Yeah, maybe one day I will.

(46:18):
Maybe one day you'll go. I'll go visit his grave.
I'll read all those lovely pieces of paper in there.
Maybe one day. The Biden administration still hasn't announced the

(46:42):
date for the final withdrawal from Afghanistan while Teresa and
I are talking, so there's still about troops deployed there.
Do you think that your experience over the last ten
years would have been different or easier in any way
if the war had ended, like let's say that all
the had come home. Do you think it would have

(47:02):
been easier for you in any way to know that
at least it was over, at least nobody else's child
was going to have to go there, No no other
parent was going to have to deal with that. Oh, definitely,
that would have been That was saved a lot of heartbreak,
a lot of heartbreak. So for you to know that

(47:25):
there's other young people in harm's way, other families who
are having to deal with what you had to deal with,
that that's been difficult for you. Guys. I almost want
to make a sign that says do not enlist. Do
not enlist. Put it above the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine,
do not enlist. Do you have a chance to die?

(47:46):
Do not believe what they say? They are liars. We'll
be back after the break, all right, the box, Teresa,

(48:35):
let Tommy and me take a storage bind back to
our hotel so we could look through it more carefully.
I've got a huge box here filled with artifacts from
Michael Dutcher's military service and things that his mother has
received from the Marine Corps from other people. I'm just

(48:58):
gonna go through this stuff. I see it's someone and
this is Michael Dutcher's posthumous Purple Heart Award, signed by
somebody who sitting in an office somewhere far from Afghanistan,

(49:21):
almost certainly never met Michael Dutcher and probably doesn't remember him.
This is a condolence letter from the Department of the Navy,
which the Marine Corps is a part of, and it says,

(49:41):
dear Mrs Dutcher, please accept my sincere condolences on the
death of your son, the late Corporal Michael Joseph Dutcher,
US Marine Corps. I realize it is difficult at a
time like this to complete forms and administrative details, but
it is necessary and should be done as soon as possible. Yeah,
that's interesting. One line basically of condolences and then right

(50:03):
down to business. Yeah, I mean, what do you expect.
You know, you can't grieve in more in for every
single person beyond a very pro format level, because if
you did, it would be impossible to fight worse, that's
for sure. There's more official correspondence geared towards tying up

(50:27):
the loose ends of Dutcher's short life. So here's something
from the State of North Carolina about Michael Dutcher's estate,
the money and his checking account and his value of
his jeep. So, yeah, his total personal property was worth
seventeen thousand, seven nine cents. He had about almost ten

(50:50):
grand in his Navy Federal Credit Union checking account, and
he must have had most in debt. It got subtracted.
There's not a lot of money for somebody who's there's
putting his life on the line. No, they don't make
a whole lot of money. I mean, that's the thing.

(51:12):
When I enlisted a private first class in the Army
and Marine Corps, made like fourteen dollars a year. So
when you go overseas, you get combat pay and hustle
fire pay. But for the really junior guys, no, they
don't make I mean they don't make minimum witch not
even close. But that's not the job. But you don't

(51:35):
do it for money, I mean, that's the idea. Anyway.
There are lots of Michael's personal photographs in the box
that are still in the envelopes, from the developer vacation
to Disney World, the cruise with Teresa and Tim somewhere,
tropical pictures from the day Michael graduated from boot camp
and rode home from Paris Island to Asheville with his

(51:56):
head slumped on his friend's shoulder in the back seat,
both of them out. Hold. Here's that picture of him
on his motorcycle. It's a Suzuki, So this is the
bike that he wanted to ride back across the United
States and he is beaming, just beaming. Mixed in with

(52:19):
some of these pictures of Michael graduating from boot camp
in his new uniform with his white hat, standing there
looking thin and fit, there are pictures of the casket
arriving in Asheville and Marines unloading the casket from a
small airplane small jet, the flag draped over it. They

(52:42):
had quite a few marines on hand to unload the casket.
Buried underneath all the photos and awards letters from boot
camp in grade school memory books, I find an envil
lope with an unmistakable seal. This Manila envelope has a

(53:05):
very important from a dress in the top left corner.
It says the White House, Washington, d C. Two zero
five oh two. There's two pieces of cardboard inside, and
in the center of them there is a letter from
the President sent on October two eleven, with his seal

(53:28):
emblazoned in the top center. Dear Teresa, I'm deeply saddened
to learn of the loss of your son, Corporal Michael J.
Dutcher USMC. Our nation will not forget his sacrifice, and
we can never repay our debt to your family. A

(53:49):
simple letter cannot ease the pain of losing a child,
but I hope you take solace in knowing that his
brave service exceeded all measures of selflessness and devotion to
this country. We honor not only as a guardian of
our liberty, but also as the true embodiment of America's
spirit of service to a cause greater than ourselves. Michelle
and I offer our heartfelt sympathy and pray that God's

(54:12):
grace gives you comfort as you grief in life. Your
son was a shining example of all that is best
in our land. In rest, May he find the peace
we all seek. Sincerely, Barack Obama. Part of me really

(54:34):
does believe that people like Michael Dutcher are a true
embodiment of America's spirit of service to a cause greater
than ourselves. I just think that that spirit of service
to a cause greater than himself was wasted. So it's

(55:02):
said five Waynesville Avenue, is is it? There's the jeep wrangler.
Do you think that's it? Yeah, that's definitely his jeep.
Then the next morning we head over to visit Michael
Dutcher's twin brother, Timothy, who goes by Tim to everyone
but his mom. Tim lives right across the street from

(55:22):
Asheville's legendary French Broad River, which is swollen and muddy
now from the spring rains. How's it going pretty good? Good, Elliott,
Tim's wants uncanny resemblance to Michael is harder to gage now,
than in the high school photos on Teresa's mantle. Tim's
got ear rings, in a big beard, and about five

(55:44):
times more hair than Michael hadn't sang in his voice
is Michael's though, and he's got the same laid back energy.
But things are not so laid back. At the house
Tim shares with his girlfriend and his dog because they're
actually packing up to move to Colorado and people are
swinging by to say goodbye. Looks like you have some friends. Yes, yes,

(56:04):
well I used to work with that guy who just
lives up the street. We were planning to hang out
here and talk, but that's not looking like our best
option anymore. So we load up and head to the hotel.
And I'm happy to drive. So if you want to
just happen with us, all right, me just do it here. Hey,
is that Michael's gee? Same jeep? I drive it every day. Wow,

(56:29):
I love that little jeep it is. We make our
way back up the steep and winding road to the
Crosstown Highway. A lot of the Marines that Michael served
with the said back when they saw you for the
first time, it was a total shock, like it really
freaked them out. Almost had a heart attack. I walked
into the barracks and I think I was on the

(56:50):
second deck, and I think it was Minndosa came out
and he had nothing but a towel on and his
stocky ass just bumb rushed me and picked me up,
started crossing iron. Just got drunk that night, and it
was just like, how the fund did you scare us
like that? And I thought it was Mike. Took him
a while to get used to it, because I mean

(57:11):
I added beard and mustache and everything. But they just
saw right there and just saw Mike and talk to
me like they've known me for years, and here we are,
the illustrious holiday and express. I think what we'll do

(57:38):
is maybe we'll put you in this armchair over here,
and I'll sit in this chair. Okay, Tim gets as
comfortable as you can in the desk chair, and then
he tells me about growing up with Michael. We were inseparable,
like one would go away, one would cry, so all
we were always together of time when we were very

(58:00):
we're very young, got up until we're about ten years old,
shared a bed, didn't want to be away from each other. Yeah,
your mom said that at one point you even had
bunk beds, and she'd put you to bed in your
separate bunk beds, but she'd go in the morning and
you guys would be curled up together. I mean you
from the womb. You're cuddling your best friend in the world.
And that's what he was to me. He was the

(58:22):
first person I ever knew, the first person I ever like,
well got punched by. So I know twins have some
kind of esp like when they're not there, you can
kind of like feel their presence somewhere else. Did you
ever experience anything like that. There are definitely moments where
we obviously finished each other since it knew what we

(58:44):
were thinking. We would be going somewhere and then we'd
see the other person there because we had the same
thought of the same idea. The one thing I'll always remember, though,
is the morning that Mike died. I woke up and

(59:05):
I knew it. I had a horrible nosebleed, headache, cut off.
I knew something was wrong. I got to work. Girlfriend
texted me and she was like, there's some people here.
I need to come home. My mom called that there's

(59:26):
some people here, you need to come home. Hung up
the phone, looked at my boss said, my brothers said
him going home. I didn't even have to tell me.
I knew it. Immediately came home and uh, because it
was a captain and the first sergeant sitting him just
standing in my living room. I didn't even have to

(59:51):
say anything. He looked at it. Man, I apologize, I said,
I'm sorry. I just picked up the table, just throw it,
just uncontrolled by anger and rage. Just broke down, immediately
went in a corner and just stayed there for like

(01:00:12):
five hours, crying, inconsolable. Losing your best friend in the
whole world. I've known people who have lost siblings and

(01:00:34):
I've lost friends, and nothing will ever ever compared to
losing your other half. His body came home and it's
almost unrecognizable. I just warn it wasn't him because some

(01:00:55):
wanton because you knew it. You knew it's for years.
Five years after it I was I was a wreck,
absolute wreck, dealt with horrible depression, drinking too much, partying

(01:01:18):
too much. I was a mess. My mother was a mess.
Losing your dad is it was rough, but like he
had known it was coming for seven years. We knew
it was coming. But this he's buried in Black Mountain,
I want to know at the Via Cemetery, and every

(01:01:40):
year I would go out there and sit down with
him and just try to see if I could still
feel him. And then one day, just sitting there having lunch,
I felt like I woke up from a long and
listen I him there. Something just said it's okay. I

(01:02:07):
don't know what it was. I know it was something that.
So you still drive Michael's jeep, And I wonder how
often you think of Michael as you're trying to move

(01:02:31):
your way through the world. How often do you look
to him and remember him and and think of his
example and the way he was as you're trying to
just deal with everything that life throws at you. I
think about him every day. I mean, he was my twin.
I can't not think about him. In the long term.

(01:02:54):
As I mentioned, coming out of depression and just five
years of being in a fugue, I tried to open
myself up to everybody. I try not to be a
reclusive I try to be more outgoing. I tried to
take chances more because life is short, we're not here forever.

(01:03:16):
Make it worthwhile, just like he did. Your mom was
very kind to us yesterday and very open and very
direct and honest with us. She also seemed from the
moment we sat down, it was so clear that the
pain was just under the surface. When I was telling

(01:03:38):
her what I wanted to talk about, there were already
tears welling in her eyes then, and I know that
she was dreading this. And she told me that she
thought about canceling it several times, and that you told
her that she should do it, and she did not
want to. She told me that she just wanted to
be over. And then I told told her that it's

(01:04:01):
never over. We're going to talk about these things. And honestly,
it's good for her to talk about these things because
she doesn't talk about Mike very much. She doesn't like remembering,
and we need to remember. So what has it been

(01:04:23):
like for you to see your mom go through this
over the last ten years? Now? First five years, just
like me, was processing actually coming to terms with the
fact that it had happened, even though there was a
memorial service, even though we saw a body, just accepting

(01:04:47):
it was the hardest part. For a while, we kind
of kept out of each other's way because it was
hard to think about. It was hard to view round
each other. But then I started talking about it. Friends, family,

(01:05:09):
my partners just helped me come to terms with helped
me process and unfortunately for her, shortly after losing Mike,
she lost her boyfriend and she was dealt another painful blow.

(01:05:32):
Joe was one of my dad's best friends, and when
my dad passed, he was always there for her. He
was always there for us, and they started dating and
he got cancer and he died right after Mike died
and sent her into a deeper round of depression, and

(01:05:53):
she felt like she just couldn't catch a break, just
one thing after another. She at one point she looked
at me and she was like, did I do something wrong?
Could I just not be happy? She's gone through more
pain and anguish in her life than I could ever imagine.

(01:06:20):
She lost her husband, she lost her son, she lost
the second love of her life. It's been the worst
on her and for the longest time, I was surprised
that she held on as well as she did. I
don't know if it was a front for me, but

(01:06:44):
I think it's good for her to actually have these conversations,
and I mean it is for me, and I just
hope that I hope that she gets some weight lifted
off her chest and some sense of peace from just talking.

(01:07:10):
Throughout all these years of grief, Teresa has always had
Tim nearby, but now he's preparing to start a new
life halfway across the country in Colorado. What's it going
to be like for you to be away from her?
This will be the first time that you've been away
for a really, really long time. We still haven't sat
down and had that conversation. I don't know how she's

(01:07:30):
gonna deal with it. A personally, I'm looking forward to it.
That's taken me a long time to come to terms
and actually take a chance at living my own life again.
I'm excited to get out there, and I put my
life on hold for a long time dealing with my

(01:07:52):
brother's loss, and I hope that she can at he's
come to terms like I have. It's been a long time.
She got remarried and she's been happy there, but there
are some days in the holidays, pictures get turned. I

(01:08:15):
don't want to think about certain things. I don't want
to be reminded of the hard times. She's come a
long way, but I don't think she'll ever be the
same I just want her to find happiness and at
least some sort of solace, some sort of just acceptance.

(01:08:40):
You think she still hasn't accepted that that he's dead,
or that why he died, or what do you think
it is that she hasn't quite accepted. We've all accepted
that he's gone at this point. It's just I think
she's still in a great deal of pane and she

(01:09:04):
doesn't want to think about my brother or talk about him.
She hasn't come to terms emotionally. I think with it.
Have you talked to her? Have you told her that

(01:09:27):
we haven't been that close in a while. It's been
hard for both of us. And when I was going
through this five years of just severe depression, I I
was very estranged. I didn't want to talk about those things.
I didn't want to think about those things. I never

(01:09:49):
wanted to bring anything up. And for a long time
we went through the motions. We just we lived our
everyday life. We didn't communicate openly. We weren't mother and
son heart to heart. We were statues trying to keep
each other from crumbling. It's easier to talk about my

(01:10:10):
brother with someone like you, who's a friend who's known
my brother in a different light. It's very much so
different talking to my mother, who just like me. Losing
your best friend, losing something that came from you. I

(01:10:30):
don't think she'll ever be able to get over it,
and I don't know if we'll ever be able to
be as close as we were. And actually it wasn't
till now that I realized that we had fallen that
far apart, because we had gone through the motions for
so long. It's just standard now. I mean, how I

(01:10:54):
should have done this with my mother five years ago,
sit down and talked with her ten years ago the
day after. It just feels like there's never a right
time to talk about these things. I telled him, this

(01:11:15):
isn't easy for me to talk about either. In fact,
these last few months have been some of the hardest
of my life. Asking the squad and Teresa and Tim
to relive their nightmares has also meant facing my own
dark memories and emotions head on. Dutcher's voice is one

(01:11:39):
in a chorus of the dead who are always with me.
Friends from my own time in the military who died
in a rock and Afghanistan journalists I knew who were
killed doing the work that I got away with, a
little girl lying in the helm on dirt, with all
four of her limbs blown off, who took her last
breaths under the lights of a humby while I stood watching.

(01:12:01):
The soldier I met on a long end bed in Kandahar,
who wrote to me off and on for years, who
took his own life on Veterans Day in two thousand nineteen.
There are more, and lately it's like all of them
are shouting inside of my head at the same time,
telling me something urgent and desperate that I can't quite

(01:12:24):
make out. And some days what I want more than
anything is quiet to never ask anyone to relive any
of this again. Your mom yesterday was talking about how

(01:12:45):
receiving all those cards she never gets a moment of peace.
She can never not be reminded of not Michael's life,
but of his death. And I think to myself sometimes,
am I just doing the same thing, and might doing
like a very elaborate form of that very same thing.
Am I forcing all of you too to be reminded

(01:13:07):
of these things that would be better left alone, et cetera.
In my opinion, what you're doing is not senseless. These
are people that they see a name of a fallen
soldier and I'm just gonna go send a card and
tell him that I'm sorry, but you you were there.

(01:13:28):
You have your own chapter in his story. So if
somebody was going to do a story or just have
the right to drag these memories up, you're one of
those people. You have a right to do this. I
don't like the idea of what do you want people
to learn from his death? He died, but he also lived,

(01:13:56):
and that's the story that should be told. His life
still affects us, just like the butterfly effect. The ripples
still remain. If you have hate, but you hear Mike's
story about how much he cared and you hate less,

(01:14:18):
that makes the story just for one person worth a damn.
I share some of the things that guys told us
about Michael with Tim. How the guys thought he was
so smart they nicknamed him, asked Dutcher dot com, his
knowledge was unreal, never met a marine with knowledge like him.

(01:14:41):
How they were inspired by his generosity and kindness. He
was a sweet human being, man like one of the
nicest dudes in that entire platoon, maybe the nicest dude
in the entire platoon. He was a good guy man
like he like almost he was like so so good
that he didn't belong there. He had no idea how
to be mean, just not a mean bone in his body.

(01:15:04):
He sold the good in everything. How his insistence on
seeing people as people help John Bollinger find his humanity again.
When all of us we're looking at animals, we're looking
at enemies, we're looking at targets, we're looking at threats,
he was seeing people and him saying that to me,

(01:15:26):
him telling me that just by using manners, you have
your humanity. If that's all you got, probably that's all
you got. If please and thank you is the best
you can muster for your fellow man, then please and

(01:15:47):
thank you is what you get. I can't even put
into words how important that was and how it instilled
in me the very beginning seeds of empathy. I'm I'm
glad he had that influence because I'm sure some path

(01:16:11):
things happened, but I think that would make him rest
easier knowing that even after him being gone, he's still
helping his friends and his family in that way. I mean,
when those guys came up from my brother's funeral and

(01:16:32):
actually came by the house. There was rage and their
eyes and and their hearts, and I'm glad to hear
it that they've found some semblance of peace. Yeah. So Also,
I don't know if you know this, maybe you do,

(01:16:52):
but Bow named his son after your brother. He named
him Benjamin Michael Bollinger. I did not know that. And
Brian Shear also named his son after your brother. He
named him Bow Dutcher Shear. That's very actually heartwarming to

(01:17:13):
hear it that he's being honored in that way. I
hope that they grew up to be just as just
as amazing as my brother did. We wrap up and
head back over to Teresa's house with Tim so I

(01:17:34):
can take portraits of both of them. I'm not so
nervous this time when I walked through the chain link
gate and up the steps. The talking is the hardest
part and it's mostly over, so getting nice and close
like you like each other come a little bit this way.
We go outside for the portraits, and for the briefest
moment I catch a glimpse of what Teresa must have

(01:17:55):
been like when the boys were little. Okay, all right, crazy,
she's cracking jokes and hamming it up with Tim pretending
to pose for a mug shot and then sticking her
tongue out and going cross eye. But when it's time
for the real picture, the smile fades, and the resignation
that's worn creases at the edges of Teresa's mouth returns.

(01:18:17):
She stares into the lens with tears at the corners
of her bright eyes. I released the shutter two and
for a fraction of a second, light splashes onto a
square of black and white film like it did a
decade ago in a dusty, mud brick room, and sang it.

(01:18:37):
When Michael Dutcher was a twenty two year old marine
with his whole life ahead of him, dreaming of becoming
a teacher like his mother, dreaming of coming home the
next morning, Tommy and I head east from Ashville. As
we get closer to Black Mountain, the chain store islands

(01:18:59):
and fixtures of bourbon sprawl start to drop off, and
we passed through pockets of rural scenery, old barns and
pastures carved out of what was once an endless sea
of trees. We turn off the main road and skirt
an old industrial complex, and then out of nowhere, there's
a cemeteria. Wow, look at all those monuments. Western Carolina

(01:19:25):
State Veterans Cemetery, Black Mountain, North Carolina. Yeah. Sure, it's
beautiful though, like this, And as we're getting out of
the car, Tommy's phone buzzes. President Biden is expected to
announce the full withdrawal of American troops from Afghanistan by
September eleven. Interesting choice of date. I'd like to dwell

(01:19:51):
on the coincidence of finding out at this exact point
in the journey that the Afghanistan War would finally end.
But I've only got one thing on my mind right now.
There are hundreds of identical granite headstones and neat ranks
stretching up a broad, grassy slope. I walk along the
lowest road near the road, scanning the names. Into my surprise,

(01:20:11):
the one I'm looking for almost jumps out at so
here it is Michael Joseph Dutcher, Corporal, US Marine Corps, Afghanistan,
November to September eleven, loving son and brother. And there's

(01:20:38):
a fresh bouquet of roses in front of it with
an American flag. And here's somebody left the painted shell.
I think I'll just take a minute. I kneel down
and close my eyes, running my hand over the cold stone,

(01:21:01):
feeling the soft grain of the granite and the letters
etched on its surface. It's a poor replacement for the
beautiful young man whose life intersected with mine for a
few memorable moments just weeks before he died. I didn't
bring any flowers or anything to leave. Didn't bring a

(01:21:24):
rock or anything to leave on the headstone. Um didn't
bring any bears, didn't bring any whiskey, didn't bring anything
like that. But I thought, you know, I'm a writer
and I like to write letters, so I thought I
would write a letter and leave it here. So this
is what it says. Thirteen April two th Dear Michael,

(01:21:50):
it's been a while. I came a very long way
to see you, and I'm grateful to be here at last.
Your final resting play is beautiful. It's also a perfectly
beautiful day, sunny, warm, the gentle spring breeze, The birds
are singing, and the dandelions and clover are blooming. There's

(01:22:13):
a little creek that runs just across the gravel road
from your grave. Someone left you a painted shell and
a bouquet of flowers with a little flag. I'm here
to say hello again and also to say farewell. The
finality of death is something I understand all too well,

(01:22:37):
but I take some comfort in the idea that you're
never truly gone until there's no one left who remembers you.
And while I'm sure that's not much consolation to Teresa,
I am grateful to be one of the people who
remembers Michael Dutcher, one of the people who learned from
his kindness and the most difficult of circumstances. And I'm

(01:22:58):
grateful that I've been given in this opportunity to keep
his memory alive, to add to the epitaph on his
headstone here in Black Mountain, which reads simply loving son
and brother. I'm just gonna tear this out, then leave

(01:23:24):
it here, stuff it into this little show, and it
will be protected for a little while from the rain
m It was almost a year ago that I help

(01:24:00):
by Dutcher's grave on that beautiful spring day in Black Mountain,
and a lot has happened since then. President Biden followed
through on his promise to end America's longest war, and
on August fifteenth, two thousand twenty one, while the last
troops were still packing their bags, the Taliban stormed into Kabul.
Many of them were riding on American trucks, wearing American

(01:24:21):
body armor, and carrying American weapons, all of it captured
from the Afghan troops who had once been our allies,
but who were now defeated and fleeing for their lives
along with hundreds of thousands of desperate civilians. For a
couple of weeks, pundits and politicians excoriated Biden over the
collapse of Afghanistan. Almost no one wanted to see the

(01:24:45):
chaos in Kabul for what it was, the final horrifying
scene of a two decade war that was lost long
before we were ready to admit it. A few weeks later,
when America paused to commemorate the twentieth Anniverse three of
nine eleven, Afghanistan was quickly changing from a political football
to a footnote, and some of the same politicians who

(01:25:07):
blamed Biden for abandoning America's allies were already maneuvering to
keep Afghan refugees out of the United States. The rallying
cry after nine eleven was never forget, but what is
it that we're supposed to remember. I'll always remember that
awful September day, but I'll spend the rest of my

(01:25:29):
life trying to make sense of everything that came after.
I'll remember Dutcher and all the others like him, the
ones I knew and the ones I didn't. I'll remember
the guys from Third Squad and all the veterans like
them who are learning to live with broken brains, broken bodies,
and broken hearts. I'll remember Teresa and Tim and all

(01:25:52):
the families left to sort through the wreckage while the
rest of the country moves on. I'll think about the
nightmare we left behind in Afghanistan, Iraq and all the
other battlefields the forever wars, and I'll continue asking what
was it all for, even though I know there will
never be a satisfying answer to that question, because I

(01:26:14):
still hold out hope that there might just be some
kind of redemption for the people who served and for
the country that sent them, if we insist on learning
something from all of this so that it isn't meaningless,
so that maybe another decade from now, it will be
true when we say they didn't die for nothing. Third

(01:26:55):
Squad is written and produced by Elliott Woods, Tommy Andres,
and Maria Byrne. It's an heirloom media production distributed by
iHeart Media. Funding support for Third Squad comes from the
National Endowment for the Humanities in collaboration with the Center
for War in Society at San Diego State University. If
you're interested in supporting our work with the financial contribution,

(01:27:16):
please visit the donate page at third squad dot com,
where you'll also find photographs from Sangin and from our
road trip. Original music for Third Squad by Mondo Boys,
editing and sound design by John Ward, fact checking by
Ben camp Special thanks to Scott Carrier, Mariann Andre, Ted Jenoways,
Benjamin Bush, Carrie Gracie, Kevin Connolly, and Lena Ferguson. If

(01:27:41):
you got a minute, please leave us a rating in
your preferred podcast app. It'll help other people find the show.
You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Elliott Woods.