July 20, 2025 • 36 mins
Fresh off his latest Emmy nominations, Hollywood legend Ryan Murphy shares his thoughts on The Menendez Brothers, The Kennedys, Kim Kardashian, and California as the entertainment capital of the world.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is Gavin Newsom from Gleed and Nip Tuck Monsters,
The Lyle and Eric Menendez Story. One of the most
prolific writers, producers, and directors in Hollywood today. This is
Ryan Murphy. So let me get a window into your day. Okay,
speaking of windows, ready, I mean, where do you even
(00:30):
hang out on an Emmy nomination day? Is that? I mean,
there is this old hat for you and you just
you know, it's nice. Yeah, I humble, you say, yeah,
it's the work. We just put it out. If it's
well received, I'm honored. Or do you sit there with
your cell phone and assistance and just baited breath waiting
for the Emmy stuff to come out.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
It's funny because I used to do that. I started.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
I had my first Emmy nomination in two thousand and
three for directing the pilot of Niptuck. I would say,
Glee through Niptuck, Glee American horror story, even people versus
OJ like I was. You know, they used to do
it at five point thirty in the morning, and now
they mercifully moved it to eight thirty to be on
(01:17):
the New York newscast. So I used to be up
at the crack of dawn, and I would sit there
and I'd pace, and you have my coffee and worry.
The interesting thing about it is today my company received
its three hundred and fiftieth Emmy nomination, which which was
a big number for me because I've only been doing
(01:39):
this for like twenty one years. So that I found
that out later, but that put in perspective. Note what
happened is I went to bed and I thought, I'm
going to wake up. I'm going to wake up. And
then I woke up, and then I forgot, and then
I remembered, and I turned off my phone and I
went to the live feed and I just watched some
(02:00):
him in and I wrote down all the different ones
that my company got, and you know, for me at
this point, it's all gravy. But I was thrilled. I
was frilled for thrilled for like people like you know,
Heavier Bardem who's a legend, so I think it's his
first Emmy nomination. And you know, Cooper Kotch, who plays
Eric Menendez, first Emmy nomination. So for the people who
(02:21):
were you know, first time at bat, it's amazing. And
then you call everybody, Yeah, it's a it's a very
strange feeling to go from like the underdog to the institution.
So you say, does it like it's just it's all blessing,
you know, and I feel happy about it, but I'm
(02:42):
oddly very competitive, like it is, Yeah, it matters, right,
Like for me, you're probably a sports guy, yeah, of sports.
Like so the Oscars and the Emmys and the Grammys
were my super Bowl, my World Series.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
So it's it's it's a childhood thing.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And when you say underdog, you mean you're still that
guy just starting out, and so you still.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Have yeah, that person. I mean, you know, when I
first started out, it was a really different time in
our culture, and the stuff that I was writing was
pretty boundary pushing, and I was always told you were
never it was never going to go, you were never
going to get anywhere.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
So then when it.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Would click and it would be a hit, I would
always be surprised.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
But people would.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Write, you know, underdog, underdog, new new kid, new kid
in town. I'm no longer than new kid. I'm old,
I have three children, and but it's it is still
a thrill. I'm always shocked where it's like it's a
dopamine buzz and also sometimes you don't get in like
and I also I have those years, but to make
(03:44):
it into the big three race, comedy, drama, Limited, it's
it's a thrill.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
And what is it? I mean, over the years, how
much pressure, because it is it's unbelievable how many projects
you're working on at the same time, how many projects
have been under the belt, et cetera. And the success
obviously you've had, But I mean, how about the pressure
you put on yourself constantly. I mean, you're competing against
this guy, Ryan Murphy, like you got, You're competing against yourself.
(04:12):
You're only as good as your next film, your next, this,
your next or do you feel like that? Or is
this just all gravy?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
And you're like, man, I got nothing to prove, you know,
for me, I just got named into the Hall of
Fame and the ceremonies in the middle of the August,
and like, you know, for my business, that's kind.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Of all right. You did it.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
So like, why am I still changed chasing the carrot?
You know, I got the carrot. I don't feel that
way anymore. I used to sweat every award nomination and
every ratings point, and now you know, I really just
do one new thing every quarter, maybe one and a
half every quarter.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Right now, I'm working on six shows.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
I have six shows coming out starting in September, one
a month.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
And you know that's not one and every quarter.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
I'm just talking about since the Hall of Fame. Okay,
this is pre Hall of Fame. I had something to prove.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
But you know, I have somebody coming out in September, October, November.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
I have a very big slate. But moving forward, I'm
just kind of you know, my kids are young, and
I'm just trying to concentrate more on my family and
and all the things I'm working on. I'm just fascinated by.
But when you're in the volume business, you have to
realize you can't. You know, not everything can be a hit.
(05:27):
Some things aren't going to work and they're going to
break your heart. But show business breaks your heart. You know,
only mentally disturb people go into people just like politics.
Only if you were a usually unloved child, would you
go into needing that.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Not enough hugs from mom?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
I mean that's how I feel. With enough psychiatry.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Yeah, I don't want to I don't want to know.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I don't know, but I went through that, and I'm like, oh, yeah,
this hole is never going to be filled up, so
it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I just like that I'm able to I have a very.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Large company and just so many thousands, if not hundreds
of thousands of jobs that I'm able to create like that,
and my dotage is the thing that I'm actually the
most excited about.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
When you say volume business, I mean that's that is
the business, or it's become the business, or it's the
side of the business that you want to pull back
from and just focus on quality, or is it quality
and quantity? I mean, how do you balance the creative
of the artists at the same time the commercial with everything.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
It's funny when I started off, I would go I
started off as a journalist, so I moved to California,
and I think I'll told you this years ago when
we first met, Like I was paid if I didn't
do three stories a.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Day, I would not be paid for the week.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
And I had to do fifteen stories a week to
get a paycheck. And I was young and living off
coffee and cigarettes, and so I've never understood the concept
of writer's block. I was lucky and that I had
that journalistic.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Training, like you just right through it.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
And when I started off, I would do like one thing,
but I had so many interests in Like in my
journalistic days, I would cover so much territory, you know,
and your work.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Ever the Miami Harold you were going to and what
was the what was the job was it in the
in what what was You're not doing sports? You weren't
necessarily doing daily news? What were you doing primarily.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Or or I started off as a crime reporter crime,
you know.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I I started off in journalism when the Purple section
of USA Today came about the life section. So I
was going to be a journalist and there weren't a
lot of people specializing in being culture reporters. So in
college I started to do that. But when I came
out to l A, I was covering everything from crime,
(07:50):
the riots to the.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Jaja board trial.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
It was very bizarre, but you know, I was just
like in my car driving around trying to find stories.
And from I developed a lot of interests and my business.
You know, I start my day very early and I
do editing and story meetings and then I put the
kids to bed and I stay up till one thirty
(08:14):
or two in the morning preparing for the next meetings.
So when I walk into a room, I'm not somebody
who says, well, what do you think. I'm like, Okay, well,
this is what we're doing because I'm being paid to
have a vision. And also at this point I have
enough hours structurally to figure out. It's not that I
don't take input, because I do. But my job is
to have a People want to be led, as you know,
(08:36):
they want to be following a direction, right. So my
business now is there's some things that are just really
big commercial hits in my company that I have other
people run, like Timinier, my great friend runs the nine
one one franchises.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
The only thing my older child likes that I've.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Ever done, not only one Nashville.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
He and I we're starting nine when one Nashville comes
on in September, and then I do. It's it's crazy
the things I do, Like it's all over the map.
I have a show on Netflix called Monsters that I love.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I have.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Other things I'm developing for FX. I'm doing this thing
called The Beauty with Jeremy Pope and Effan Peters and
Rebecca Hall and Anthony Ramos. That's kind of a sci
fi show, which I've never done before, a lot of
action which I've never done before.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
That I'm doing the JFK Carolyn Bassett.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yes, you are in next with February and.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
On Valentine's Day. I've been dodging a lot of heat
for that.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
How do you by the way, I don't even want
to go down that rabbit hole, but but yeah, I
mean right, the family, you know, and consultant or how
do you how do you even how do you process that?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I tie in.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I try and have some humility about it, you know,
for example, on that show, and I haven't really spoken
about this. You know, when you're starting a show based
on a famous person, you're usually able to, for a
couple of days say well let's try that, and let's
try this, and let's try that, and then you look
at the dailies and you adjust. It used to be
that you shot the first episode and then you went
(10:05):
down and you corrected everything, and then you went back up.
It was called pilots. They don't do that anymore.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, great point.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
So that show was the double whammy of you know,
we were shooting a couple things and I guess it's
a blessing that people went absolutely ape shit crazy about
you got the purse wrong, you got the hair wrong,
you got so it would be stupid not to listen
to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, And I looked
at him, like, yeah, they're right. We should not have
Karen Beset. Our actress Rebecca Pigeon had black hair. It's
(10:35):
a lot to ask an actress of dark hair to
go blonde, and so I was trying to do wigs
and work around that, but finally was like, you know,
we we have to.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
We have to Sarah Pigeon, brother, we have to. We
have to dye your hairs. It's not going to work.
So we corrected that. And then the thing that I
was not.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Prepared for was sort of the Kennedy firestorm, right, which
I thought was very strange because they're there, nobody's read anything.
It's very sympathetic, by the way, So it's a love story.
It's not a takedown. It's a story about youth taken
too soon and idealism, things that we need more in politics.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
You know. JFK.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Junior was probably going to be on that path of
his father understatement. So it's a tragedy. So then you
have a member of the family, you know, speaking out,
and I took it with a grain of salt. You know,
it's a younger generation. But I will say in finality
about that project. You know, there've been over eighty eight
(11:41):
things movies and television shows about the Kennedy's right, not
one has ever been authorized by the family.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I never even thought they wanted to do that.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
So ours is based on a book that's very sympathetic
to both both people, with Paul and Sarah of playing
you know, their hearts out. So that was that was
an odd, dark moment for me where I've never that
criticism hurt. I thought it was an odd choice to
be mad about your your relative that you really don't remember.
(12:16):
I think, but you know this from being in the
public eye yourself. Like the days of civil discourse are over,
and it's very hard and you kind of either get
into the muck or you try and rise above it.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I found that hard to do, but I did it,
and I'm I just have a better attitude about it,
I think than I did before I started. And you know,
but I'm also thankful for the criticism because if you're smart,
you listen to critical and you.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Say Okay, that's great, and we fixed it.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
We we we we rolled up our sleeves and we
listened to people and corrected it.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
And I like doing that.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
But you take on these projects that, by definition, everyone
feels very attached to, connected with.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Which I'm stupid because I never think that, Like I'm like, what,
like what?
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I always am drawn to things that I guess are
naturally provocative.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Yeah, I don't think of them as being that, and
then I put them out and people have huge opinions
of them, and I'm always like, wait, what I don't understand.
But that's a blessing and a curse, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
And is this, I mean, is it you? Is it
a team of people say, hey, Ryan, I got this
great idea. You know, it's been a few years since
Jackie or this or that, I mean Menendez where there's
a couple of things that were here's a new angle.
Or is it you? You just you know, you're constantly
absorbing and you're sort of picking I mean, your ability
to sort of this intersection of how you're able to
(13:56):
pull genres and sort of connect dots that other people
have seen. Is that is that you? Or is that
the team you've assembled? And is that expression as it
relates to your leadership, your ability to sort of create
the conditions where this kind of creativity formats well.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
First and foremost, you know, I have amazing collaborators, many
of whom I've had for many years, like you know,
Brad Simpson and Nina Jacobson who did Forsasci and OJ
with me and Pose with me. And Ian Brennan, who
does all of the Monstrous scripts is one of the
most brilliant, if not the most brilliant writers I've ever
worked with.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I worked with.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Max Winkler, who is Henry Winkler's son, who's an amazing collaborator.
Many many people, but it really kind of my world.
My company starts with me saying, hey, I'm interested in
that in that yeah, and then I assemble people and
we have points of view. Sometimes I'm very hands on.
Sometimes I'm more like, well, you write a script and
show it to me and I'll give you thoughts. But
(14:52):
anything that I make I have really big opinions on
because I'm passionate about it about it.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
And over the years, have you learned through trial and
error the things you weren't passionate about were reflected negatively
in the outcome or oh yeah, I mean that truly,
Oh yeah, like you just that was it showed Well.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
The biggest bomb I ever had was a sitcom. I've
really only had one or two misfires.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
On my career, just that one NBC thing, right.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
You're so yeah, but that was it. That was it.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
One year, one season.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yes, the other ones. I've made the decision. Okay, that's
not for me. Maybe I don't want to keep doing
it because you know, in my contract I can make.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Those decisions now, right.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
But yeah, I made a thing called The New Normal
that because I'm like, you know what, these modern family
guys are raking in the dub with this half hour.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I want to try a half hour sitcom.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
And I tried it, and I loved the talent, particularly
Andrew Rynolds, who loosely played me.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
You know, Ellen.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Barkin was amazing, and it justin Bartha was amazing, and
I got somebody like Max Winkler, that was the person
I worked with him. But it just was not me.
It wasn't I don't think it was dark enough. Or
my comedy tends to be much more sardonic or sarcastic,
and it's a Family Show, you know, I learned like no.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
And was that chasing as you say back to the
competitor and you yeah, you were chasing competition or was
it chasing money? Success? And that respect both what.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
It was two things Like I mean, the big comedy
of that time that was dealing with you know, provocative
issues was Modern Family.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And I was a big fan of that show.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
And I knew those guys from Awards show circus because
it was always us them.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Versus Glee, Glee.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
But I wanted the money, to be honest, Like I
was like, you know, there's nothing better than to have
a half hour that works, you know, because but back
then is that where.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
That's where where they pre streaming you could you could
you know, syndicate it forever.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
And that was all I was one of the holy
grails of show business. This thing that Norman Lear told me,
who I was friends with, He said, kid, get a
half hour.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Get it.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
And I was like, Okay. I tried, and I just
couldn't do it. I had a great collaborator and Ali Adler,
but I just could not do it, and I hated
doing it. I did it was like it wasn't me.
It was just like I had an allergy to it,
and I've had other things that I've tried where I'm like, nah,
maybe I'll pick it up down the road.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
This wasn't the right fit for me right now.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
What on the flip side just something that just you know,
you didn't expect, but you just that popped.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
That got so many things.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I mean, almost all of my big hits were and
I've had a handful more than a handful are things
that people said this will never work. And I had
great mentors and Dana Walden who we were talking about
in John Langgraf and Ted Sarandos. For example, Glee was
told it was a horrible show by people in that company.
(18:00):
But Dana Stock, what's stuck with that American horror story?
Everyone is like, what, You're going to burn down the
sets at the end of the year and start over.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
It made no sense, right right? John Langraft was with it.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Nobody, you know, I tried to get the Jeffrey Dahmer
story made for a decade, couldn't get that made.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
I was shocked at that was so big.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I would say, almost everything that I've had that is successful,
I'm surprised by.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Did you know Menandez would be such a huge global
I mean it was worldwide, just off the charts, right,
twelve million or so within that first weekend. Now I
don't know those are I.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Mean, you know, it was interesting because I realized, like,
what was the thing that made Dahmer so.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Popular? And I think it was it was scary. Yeah,
you know, it.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Was your secret about the guy next door who's you know,
doing dastardly things. Menindez I always thought was smaller because
it was a raw Mons story who'd done it? Like
why not who done it? But why did they do it?
I was surprised.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
I was. I was very surprised that.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
It became such a lightning rod literally within a day.
I was very surprised initially that the brothers spoke out
so vociferously against it. And I was very surprised where
you know, two months ago they thanked me and said,
you know, actually you helped us, like you you did
a good thing. I was surprised at that. I'm always
(19:36):
I'm always surprised at success and I always expect failure.
I guess you're that guy. You yeah, Because like you know,
I have always lived my life as a Catholic.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I was an altar boy.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Right, So my motto on my life, I mean in
the choir of all things, yes, and running cross country.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Don't forget I was a.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Job a little bit forgiving.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
My motto in my life has been, guess what happens
when the pope dies?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
You get a new pope.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
That's always what I have been raised to think. So
if something doesn't work out, roll up your sleeves and
try again. You know, when I started off, I was
in a writer's group of six people. I was in
two writers groups. The first one. They were all much
more talented than me. But the problem was they just
they gave up. They got one rejection and they literally psychologically.
(20:27):
You know, you're in politics. It's it's devastating when you're
not chosen, you know. And in politics, like in show business,
you've won big. You know that feeling where you win,
and you also know the feeling well maybe not, I
don't think you've ever really publicly lost that much, but
you know you've you've had a bit.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Of recall efforts, I mean, to the edge, but.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
You beat it.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
There's no but the loss that I've had experience.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
And you know, I've had friends who've run for big
offices and lost and it's devastated, it's personal, and I guess.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
You just feel that way. You felt that way, but
you were resilient.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I just was like, what can I learn from it?
And I always take to my bed for a day,
you know, I always am like, I have a martini
and take to my bed. But then I'm like, all right, well,
what are you going to do here? You go on
because the next one might be a hit. And in
my case, I've been blessed enough that that's exactly what
happened in my career.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Honestly, do you you just write a list down of
all these crazy ideas. You're on a trip, taking a vacation,
and then you see, you know, I don't know, you
see a statue of someone. You're like, I'm going to
do a movie on Marcus Aurelius or something.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Or Da Vinci.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
No one's talked about Da Vinci, and he's you know,
he's an interesting character. And then ten years later you
go back to the diary and you go, oh, yeah,
what about that Da Vinci idea?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I do have a little black book that it always
starts off, what about dot dot dot right? I have
that I've been writing ideas down for you know, twenty
two years. The model of my careers always do the
opposite of what you just did. So, for example, if
you look at my fall in September, I have nine
one one Nashville, which is very straight up the middle Americana.
(22:16):
Good guys solve, you know, solving problems. You root for
them heroes, right, And then I did the complete opposite
of that, which then in October comes Monster season three,
which is about ed Gean.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, do you know what Gan? No?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Okay, Psycho was based on ed Geen America. Silence of
the Lambs just based on that.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Jesus, I don't want to watch it.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Why do you want to watch all this negative stuff?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
I don't know that it's negative. You like, you love
all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I remember, by the way, the Menendez that we were
having full disclosure. I think it was a lunch we
did and you start talking to me about this and
you all but said I'm sorry. You said you're sorry,
and I was like, I didn't fully appreciate. Oh right,
you were. I think, I mean sorry.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
I'm not sure what people are going to say, but
I think I think, well.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
This is what I knew from them an indes thing.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
You know, I moved to la in nineteen eighty nine,
so that was when you're new to a city, and
that double, you know, almost had happened soon after I
was you know, when I would see Dominic Donn at
the Chateau Marmont.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
And you know.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
What I was aware of is that during COVID a
lot of young people on TikTok had made it a thing,
and I kind of, you know, I'd like to be
aware of what people are saying culturally. Listen, it hadn't
even aired, but I think what I said to you,
if TikTok is any indication, I think people will be
very interested in this.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
But again, I don't know. It could be a bomb. Yeah.
And the reason and I said we'll talk in here,
we are we'll.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Talk only because you knew cause and effect and great
it will bring this back. There'll be conversations about their
sentencing ultimately led to their resentencing. And we're just a
few weeks away August twenty. First and second, I think
where the pro board is going to make a decision
and make a recommendation, it lands on my desk, mister Murphy.
(24:16):
That's heavy stuff, heavy stuff, and you know what, intentionally,
and I remember that conversation with you. I remember going
back and I kept having a temptation to want to
see it, but with the recognition always back in my
mind that this thing may land on my desk. I
don't want to be persuaded by something that's not in
the files.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah, I get that. But also I think it's interesting because.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
When I was writing it, you know, we had an
interesting writer's room where I was the one person in
the room who kept saying, I'm not so, I don't
think they.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Should get out. I was the voice of like, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
I told me this at the lunch. I remember, yes, And.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
You know what I think that was is I think
generation generationally, young people have a much different way of
identifying and talking about and navigating abuse than we did.
It's just like I remember that trial too. It wasn't
even something you could imagine or you know, people our
age are very different than younger people in terms of
(25:28):
what they see as abuse and can talk about it.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
We did not, So in a weird way, what has happened.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Through the show is I was really really educated a
lot by the other people in the writer's room and
by the actors. I was astonished at how I went
into something with such a predetermined point of view and
came out of it at the end of it thinking,
you know where I am today is I really do
think they should be released. I do think they should
(25:55):
be paroled. And I did not think that when I
started that is that.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Evolved very recently. It evolved over the course of just
that that discourse with friends, people observing, people that watched it. Mean,
is it tell me what's been your journey in terms
of coming to that conclusion?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
It was just a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
It was it was learning about Listen, what happened between
the Menindaz brothers was between them and their two parents,
and nobody else will ever know what happened, right. What
happened to me was there was a lot of very
interesting voices in my path along the way. You know,
for example, one of my good friends who's the star
(26:43):
of one of my shows coming up, Kim Kardashian. You
may have heard of her, arguably the most famous woman
on the.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Face of the earth.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
You know, she's a very big victims rights advocate, and
she's very very smart, and she's you know, I can't
even get her on the phone to talk about our
show right now because she's practicing for the bar.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And she's constantly reaching out talking about cases advocating for
our fire crews that are part of our estates prison
I mean a lot of substance there.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Yeah, She's an amazing person and very very educated about
this topic. And so she went she she watched the show.
I sent it to her early because she said, what
can I see this? And I sent it to her early. Yeah,
And she was really obsessed with it and then went
to visit them and then called me up and said,
(27:34):
you know, like I really feel like they deserve to
be parolled.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
And I said why.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
And she talked a lot about a really interesting points
of view that I had not really thought about, which is,
you know, they were they were under twenty five, you know,
which I think is an interesting point of view. Yeah,
there's many studies that shows, you know, the prefrontal cortex
for men do not fully develop, So there's that argument. Also,
(28:02):
they've been modeled prisoners. Also, if I was very moved
by their family recently and how the family is so unified,
and I guess it just begs the question, like if not,
now when like, what benefit to society do we have
by keeping them there? If they can come out of
(28:23):
prison and actually serve some good, right, I think that's
a powerful thing.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, it's interesting. The flip side is I've had people
say what good can come from sending a message that
you can kill both of your parents and be released? Sure,
well as society benefited with them being released, which is
I mean, it's interesting. The prole process is a much
more limited process. You can't even get it. The conversation
there is have they exercised a process to rehabilitate themselves
(28:53):
and through an independent psych evaluation and risk assessment, are
they quote unquote suitable for parole on the basis of
in prison behavior and a series of other criteria that's
well established and laid out. And so it's an almost
separate it's not almost, but it is a separate question
then the broader feeling of whether or not it's the
(29:14):
right or wrong thing. So it's an interesting for these things.
That's why for me, I didn't want to be colored
or don't want to be colored by sort of the
atmospheric So I had to deal with this with on
which was that was I mean, that's a whole another
one of these days, we'll see your your efforts. I
want to see what you pulled together. I think had
enough of me.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
May well, what do I ask you about?
Speaker 3 (29:34):
What about you know one of the recent Manson girls tough?
Speaker 2 (29:38):
How did you make that decisions? Brutal?
Speaker 1 (29:40):
I mean, I've had I've had multiple opportunities and the
burden opportunities, the gift bananan one's perspective to make judgments
on that. There's a number of the Manson folks that
have been rejected by the last three governors that I
rejected a few times. The last rejection was overturned by
(30:01):
the court that felt we were we were abusing our
discretion in our prole office.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
And they're tough.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I mean, And it's thinks notoriety works in both ways, right,
it works absolutely for you, but it is a sword
used against you at the same time. And I think
that's what the Menendez what what what your series did
is it really elevated that conversation as well, because there
are a lot of other people in prison that don't
get any attention, that don't even get in front of
(30:29):
the parole board, that don't have advocates that don't have
Kim Kardashian making phone calls, that don't have their day
in court, so to speak, at least the court of
the parole board. And uh. And so it's, you know,
it's trying to balance all that. Same time, you've got
people that were releasing that have done equivalent or worse,
(30:50):
that have spent.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Less time right less time.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
It's a very it's a very slippery slope and it's
a really hard road. And I feel for you, but
you know, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
It's sort of like.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
The penal system in this country operates differently than any
other country on Earth, and you have to question why
and like, I mean, my god, if they could get
out and help two people, like, isn't that worth it
in some way?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Maybe I'm being too catholic about it all, but I
was astonished that I flipped, and I really did flip,
and I flipped.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
I don't I don't remember how long ago that launch was,
but you were you were definitely not there.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
I was not because you asked me blank and I said,
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I was very on the fence about it.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
And yeah, and also I just think listening to people
younger than you was part of the job for me
at this point. Yeah, it reminds me of the general
there's a big generational shift happening in like Hollywood in particular,
and also maybe I'm just that age. But I tried
(32:01):
to listen with an open heart and educate myself about
abuse and victims and it was an interesting process for me.
And of course I love the show so much because
you asked me, why are you making this gross thing
all the time?
Speaker 1 (32:15):
No, I've been back to yeah, back to what We'll get
back to the Hannibal lecter of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Like well, like it's a it's a it's a point
of view, like try to.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Relax here, and you're making me watch this stuff. I'm
trying to go to bed.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
I got a beautiful, buzzy law show coming up with.
I need to be relaxed, you need.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
I got enough stress in my life. Okay, Yeah, you're
introducing all this additional anxiety.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I know murdered Dahmer.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Seriously, see, maybe you can now with you get this
what the twenty first twenty second? Yeah, then you can
watch the Meninda's Brothers over your labor day and.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
Maybe I'm going to do see if I made the
right right like before, I would love for you to
watch it actually, because the thing about that show that
I love is asked the question are monsters made or
are they born?
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And your and what is your Ultimately?
Speaker 3 (33:02):
I think ultimately in the case of these two brothers,
I think they were made made.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, and you think that's always the case.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
I think that's what I love about the show, Like
if it's very complicated, like you can be. You know,
if you think about season three which is coming up,
where Charlie Hunting plays Ed Green, which is not you know,
for the squeamish, but really what it is about is
this was an This was a person who was mentally ill,
(33:31):
who is an undiagnosed schizophrenic his entire life, and not
until it was too late, till he was in prison,
I believe in his fifties was he diagnosed. So it
really is sort of a story about mental health and awareness.
That's what I love about telling this for the stories.
I'm not in it for the blood, I'm not in
(33:51):
it for the gore. I'm in it for like, well,
what is it was he made or was he born?
Speaker 2 (33:55):
That way?
Speaker 3 (33:56):
I think that that story of Ed Geen is both
he was born that way and made that way.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, and are you do you do?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I mean, so you have a team doing that research,
but you're writing I mean you're I mean as you're
writing this, is it coming from your own research?
Speaker 3 (34:12):
I mean on all of my shows that are are
you know? True stories? I always say based on my research,
Like I have a very large amount of researchers who
spend years before we write something like if you look
at at Geen JFK. Carolyn Bassett, we spend a lot
(34:35):
of time, you know, because those things what you try
and do with the biopic, right is you don't want
to do a Wikipedia thing. You want to find like
the most bizarre factoys. Then you're like, oh that, like yeah, yeah,
you know. I remember when we were doing Dummer. I
was astonished by the fact that he and I never
heard this before, that he in prison would play whale
(34:59):
noises to fall asleep.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
You can't make that up, No, you cannot make that up.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
So it's like, well we have to put that and
that launched the sound of the score, like it's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
You should watch it. You would like it.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Don't you get handled gleat what.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Is your favorite show on TV? Right now? As a
pop culture guy, you watch stuff.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I watch a little stuff, not a lot of stuff.
You you called me to say you got to watch
The Politician.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Remember you did that? Okay, so you're going.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
To watch that. Watch that.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
You're just guy, right, I want I love that.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Makes me feel good, like a little tear in my eye,
and I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I love that show.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Yeah, right, last great life is So here's the thing
about hard, right, well, this is my business, does this right?
Life is hard. Everybody's struggling. So I think you either
want to watch something that makes you forget it and
makes you laugh and it's light, or you want something
that is dark where you can put your anxiety into true.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
I did that with OJ. I mean that was next level,
was fantastic. I was, come on, yeah, that was a
good one.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
What good?
Speaker 1 (36:03):
It was great?
Speaker 2 (36:04):
I loved doing it.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Wasn't that was off the charts good.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
But again that was like that had been kicking around,
nobody wanted to make that. It's it's funny about you
think now, like, well, yeah, the home Run, but it was.
It's it's always interesting to me about what because it
you know, when we were making it. So many people said,
why are you making this to me? And I was like,
(36:29):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I like the story, you know,
This is Gavin Newsom from Gleed and Nip Tuck Monsters,
The Lyle and Eric Menendez Story. One of the most
prolific writers, producers, and directors in Hollywood today. This is
Ryan Murphy. So let me get a window into your day. Okay,
speaking of windows, ready, I mean, where do you even
(00:30):
hang out on an Emmy nomination day? Is that? I mean,
there is this old hat for you and you just
you know, it's nice. Yeah, I humble, you say, yeah,
it's the work. We just put it out. If it's
well received, I'm honored. Or do you sit there with
your cell phone and assistance and just baited breath waiting
for the Emmy stuff to come out.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
It's funny because I used to do that. I started.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
I had my first Emmy nomination in two thousand and
three for directing the pilot of Niptuck. I would say,
Glee through Niptuck, Glee American horror story, even people versus
OJ like I was. You know, they used to do
it at five point thirty in the morning, and now
they mercifully moved it to eight thirty to be on
(01:17):
the New York newscast. So I used to be up
at the crack of dawn, and I would sit there
and I'd pace, and you have my coffee and worry.
The interesting thing about it is today my company received
its three hundred and fiftieth Emmy nomination, which which was
a big number for me because I've only been doing
(01:39):
this for like twenty one years. So that I found
that out later, but that put in perspective. Note what
happened is I went to bed and I thought, I'm
going to wake up. I'm going to wake up. And
then I woke up, and then I forgot, and then
I remembered, and I turned off my phone and I
went to the live feed and I just watched some
(02:00):
him in and I wrote down all the different ones
that my company got, and you know, for me at
this point, it's all gravy. But I was thrilled. I
was frilled for thrilled for like people like you know,
Heavier Bardem who's a legend, so I think it's his
first Emmy nomination. And you know, Cooper Kotch, who plays
Eric Menendez, first Emmy nomination. So for the people who
(02:21):
were you know, first time at bat, it's amazing. And
then you call everybody, Yeah, it's a it's a very
strange feeling to go from like the underdog to the institution.
So you say, does it like it's just it's all blessing,
you know, and I feel happy about it, but I'm
(02:42):
oddly very competitive, like it is, Yeah, it matters, right,
Like for me, you're probably a sports guy, yeah, of sports.
Like so the Oscars and the Emmys and the Grammys
were my super Bowl, my World Series.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
So it's it's it's a childhood thing.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And when you say underdog, you mean you're still that
guy just starting out, and so you still.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Have yeah, that person. I mean, you know, when I
first started out, it was a really different time in
our culture, and the stuff that I was writing was
pretty boundary pushing, and I was always told you were
never it was never going to go, you were never
going to get anywhere.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
So then when it.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Would click and it would be a hit, I would
always be surprised.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
But people would.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Write, you know, underdog, underdog, new new kid, new kid
in town. I'm no longer than new kid. I'm old,
I have three children, and but it's it is still
a thrill. I'm always shocked where it's like it's a
dopamine buzz and also sometimes you don't get in like
and I also I have those years, but to make
(03:44):
it into the big three race, comedy, drama, Limited, it's
it's a thrill.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
And what is it? I mean, over the years, how
much pressure, because it is it's unbelievable how many projects
you're working on at the same time, how many projects
have been under the belt, et cetera. And the success
obviously you've had, But I mean, how about the pressure
you put on yourself constantly. I mean, you're competing against
this guy, Ryan Murphy, like you got, You're competing against yourself.
(04:12):
You're only as good as your next film, your next, this,
your next or do you feel like that? Or is
this just all gravy?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
And you're like, man, I got nothing to prove, you know,
for me, I just got named into the Hall of
Fame and the ceremonies in the middle of the August,
and like, you know, for my business, that's kind.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Of all right. You did it.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
So like, why am I still changed chasing the carrot?
You know, I got the carrot. I don't feel that
way anymore. I used to sweat every award nomination and
every ratings point, and now you know, I really just
do one new thing every quarter, maybe one and a
half every quarter.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Right now, I'm working on six shows.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
I have six shows coming out starting in September, one
a month.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
And you know that's not one and every quarter.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
I'm just talking about since the Hall of Fame. Okay,
this is pre Hall of Fame. I had something to prove.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
But you know, I have somebody coming out in September, October, November.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
I have a very big slate. But moving forward, I'm
just kind of you know, my kids are young, and
I'm just trying to concentrate more on my family and
and all the things I'm working on. I'm just fascinated by.
But when you're in the volume business, you have to
realize you can't. You know, not everything can be a hit.
(05:27):
Some things aren't going to work and they're going to
break your heart. But show business breaks your heart. You know,
only mentally disturb people go into people just like politics.
Only if you were a usually unloved child, would you
go into needing that.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Not enough hugs from mom?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
I mean that's how I feel. With enough psychiatry.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Yeah, I don't want to I don't want to know.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I don't know, but I went through that, and I'm like, oh, yeah,
this hole is never going to be filled up, so
it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I just like that I'm able to I have a very.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Large company and just so many thousands, if not hundreds
of thousands of jobs that I'm able to create like that,
and my dotage is the thing that I'm actually the
most excited about.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
When you say volume business, I mean that's that is
the business, or it's become the business, or it's the
side of the business that you want to pull back
from and just focus on quality, or is it quality
and quantity? I mean, how do you balance the creative
of the artists at the same time the commercial with everything.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
It's funny when I started off, I would go I
started off as a journalist, so I moved to California,
and I think I'll told you this years ago when
we first met, Like I was paid if I didn't
do three stories a.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Day, I would not be paid for the week.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
And I had to do fifteen stories a week to
get a paycheck. And I was young and living off
coffee and cigarettes, and so I've never understood the concept
of writer's block. I was lucky and that I had
that journalistic.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Training, like you just right through it.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
And when I started off, I would do like one thing,
but I had so many interests in Like in my
journalistic days, I would cover so much territory, you know,
and your work.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Ever the Miami Harold you were going to and what
was the what was the job was it in the
in what what was You're not doing sports? You weren't
necessarily doing daily news? What were you doing primarily.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Or or I started off as a crime reporter crime,
you know.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
I I started off in journalism when the Purple section
of USA Today came about the life section. So I
was going to be a journalist and there weren't a
lot of people specializing in being culture reporters. So in
college I started to do that. But when I came
out to l A, I was covering everything from crime,
(07:50):
the riots to the.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Jaja board trial.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
It was very bizarre, but you know, I was just
like in my car driving around trying to find stories.
And from I developed a lot of interests and my business.
You know, I start my day very early and I
do editing and story meetings and then I put the
kids to bed and I stay up till one thirty
(08:14):
or two in the morning preparing for the next meetings.
So when I walk into a room, I'm not somebody
who says, well, what do you think. I'm like, Okay, well,
this is what we're doing because I'm being paid to
have a vision. And also at this point I have
enough hours structurally to figure out. It's not that I
don't take input, because I do. But my job is
to have a People want to be led, as you know,
(08:36):
they want to be following a direction, right. So my
business now is there's some things that are just really
big commercial hits in my company that I have other
people run, like Timinier, my great friend runs the nine
one one franchises.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
The only thing my older child likes that I've.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Ever done, not only one Nashville.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
He and I we're starting nine when one Nashville comes
on in September, and then I do. It's it's crazy
the things I do, Like it's all over the map.
I have a show on Netflix called Monsters that I love.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I have.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Other things I'm developing for FX. I'm doing this thing
called The Beauty with Jeremy Pope and Effan Peters and
Rebecca Hall and Anthony Ramos. That's kind of a sci
fi show, which I've never done before, a lot of
action which I've never done before.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
That I'm doing the JFK Carolyn Bassett.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yes, you are in next with February and.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
On Valentine's Day. I've been dodging a lot of heat
for that.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
How do you by the way, I don't even want
to go down that rabbit hole, but but yeah, I
mean right, the family, you know, and consultant or how
do you how do you even how do you process that?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I tie in.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I try and have some humility about it, you know,
for example, on that show, and I haven't really spoken
about this. You know, when you're starting a show based
on a famous person, you're usually able to, for a
couple of days say well let's try that, and let's
try this, and let's try that, and then you look
at the dailies and you adjust. It used to be
that you shot the first episode and then you went
(10:05):
down and you corrected everything, and then you went back up.
It was called pilots. They don't do that anymore.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, great point.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
So that show was the double whammy of you know,
we were shooting a couple things and I guess it's
a blessing that people went absolutely ape shit crazy about
you got the purse wrong, you got the hair wrong,
you got so it would be stupid not to listen
to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, And I looked
at him, like, yeah, they're right. We should not have
Karen Beset. Our actress Rebecca Pigeon had black hair. It's
(10:35):
a lot to ask an actress of dark hair to
go blonde, and so I was trying to do wigs
and work around that, but finally was like, you know,
we we have to.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
We have to Sarah Pigeon, brother, we have to. We
have to dye your hairs. It's not going to work.
So we corrected that. And then the thing that I
was not.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Prepared for was sort of the Kennedy firestorm, right, which
I thought was very strange because they're there, nobody's read anything.
It's very sympathetic, by the way, So it's a love story.
It's not a takedown. It's a story about youth taken
too soon and idealism, things that we need more in politics.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
You know. JFK.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Junior was probably going to be on that path of
his father understatement. So it's a tragedy. So then you
have a member of the family, you know, speaking out,
and I took it with a grain of salt. You know,
it's a younger generation. But I will say in finality
about that project. You know, there've been over eighty eight
(11:41):
things movies and television shows about the Kennedy's right, not
one has ever been authorized by the family.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
I never even thought they wanted to do that.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
So ours is based on a book that's very sympathetic
to both both people, with Paul and Sarah of playing
you know, their hearts out. So that was that was
an odd, dark moment for me where I've never that
criticism hurt. I thought it was an odd choice to
be mad about your your relative that you really don't remember.
(12:16):
I think, but you know this from being in the
public eye yourself. Like the days of civil discourse are over,
and it's very hard and you kind of either get
into the muck or you try and rise above it.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I found that hard to do, but I did it,
and I'm I just have a better attitude about it,
I think than I did before I started. And you know,
but I'm also thankful for the criticism because if you're smart,
you listen to critical and you.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Say Okay, that's great, and we fixed it.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
We we we we rolled up our sleeves and we
listened to people and corrected it.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
And I like doing that.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
But you take on these projects that, by definition, everyone
feels very attached to, connected with.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Which I'm stupid because I never think that, Like I'm like, what,
like what?
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I always am drawn to things that I guess are
naturally provocative.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Yeah, I don't think of them as being that, and
then I put them out and people have huge opinions
of them, and I'm always like, wait, what I don't understand.
But that's a blessing and a curse, you know.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
And is this, I mean, is it you? Is it
a team of people say, hey, Ryan, I got this
great idea. You know, it's been a few years since
Jackie or this or that, I mean Menendez where there's
a couple of things that were here's a new angle.
Or is it you? You just you know, you're constantly
absorbing and you're sort of picking I mean, your ability
to sort of this intersection of how you're able to
(13:56):
pull genres and sort of connect dots that other people
have seen. Is that is that you? Or is that
the team you've assembled? And is that expression as it
relates to your leadership, your ability to sort of create
the conditions where this kind of creativity formats well.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
First and foremost, you know, I have amazing collaborators, many
of whom I've had for many years, like you know,
Brad Simpson and Nina Jacobson who did Forsasci and OJ
with me and Pose with me. And Ian Brennan, who
does all of the Monstrous scripts is one of the
most brilliant, if not the most brilliant writers I've ever
worked with.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I worked with.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Max Winkler, who is Henry Winkler's son, who's an amazing collaborator.
Many many people, but it really kind of my world.
My company starts with me saying, hey, I'm interested in
that in that yeah, and then I assemble people and
we have points of view. Sometimes I'm very hands on.
Sometimes I'm more like, well, you write a script and
show it to me and I'll give you thoughts. But
(14:52):
anything that I make I have really big opinions on
because I'm passionate about it about it.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
And over the years, have you learned through trial and
error the things you weren't passionate about were reflected negatively
in the outcome or oh yeah, I mean that truly,
Oh yeah, like you just that was it showed Well.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
The biggest bomb I ever had was a sitcom. I've
really only had one or two misfires.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
On my career, just that one NBC thing, right.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
You're so yeah, but that was it. That was it.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
One year, one season.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yes, the other ones. I've made the decision. Okay, that's
not for me. Maybe I don't want to keep doing
it because you know, in my contract I can make.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Those decisions now, right.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
But yeah, I made a thing called The New Normal
that because I'm like, you know what, these modern family
guys are raking in the dub with this half hour.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I want to try a half hour sitcom.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
And I tried it, and I loved the talent, particularly
Andrew Rynolds, who loosely played me.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
You know, Ellen.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Barkin was amazing, and it justin Bartha was amazing, and
I got somebody like Max Winkler, that was the person
I worked with him. But it just was not me.
It wasn't I don't think it was dark enough. Or
my comedy tends to be much more sardonic or sarcastic,
and it's a Family Show, you know, I learned like no.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
And was that chasing as you say back to the
competitor and you yeah, you were chasing competition or was
it chasing money? Success? And that respect both what.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
It was two things Like I mean, the big comedy
of that time that was dealing with you know, provocative
issues was Modern Family.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
And I was a big fan of that show.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
And I knew those guys from Awards show circus because
it was always us them.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Versus Glee, Glee.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
But I wanted the money, to be honest, Like I
was like, you know, there's nothing better than to have
a half hour that works, you know, because but back
then is that where.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
That's where where they pre streaming you could you could
you know, syndicate it forever.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
And that was all I was one of the holy
grails of show business. This thing that Norman Lear told me,
who I was friends with, He said, kid, get a
half hour.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Get it.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
And I was like, Okay. I tried, and I just
couldn't do it. I had a great collaborator and Ali Adler,
but I just could not do it, and I hated
doing it. I did it was like it wasn't me.
It was just like I had an allergy to it,
and I've had other things that I've tried where I'm like, nah,
maybe I'll pick it up down the road.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
This wasn't the right fit for me right now.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
What on the flip side just something that just you know,
you didn't expect, but you just that popped.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
That got so many things.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
I mean, almost all of my big hits were and
I've had a handful more than a handful are things
that people said this will never work. And I had
great mentors and Dana Walden who we were talking about
in John Langgraf and Ted Sarandos. For example, Glee was
told it was a horrible show by people in that company.
(18:00):
But Dana Stock, what's stuck with that American horror story?
Everyone is like, what, You're going to burn down the
sets at the end of the year and start over.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
It made no sense, right right? John Langraft was with it.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Nobody, you know, I tried to get the Jeffrey Dahmer
story made for a decade, couldn't get that made.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
I was shocked at that was so big.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I would say, almost everything that I've had that is successful,
I'm surprised by.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Did you know Menandez would be such a huge global
I mean it was worldwide, just off the charts, right,
twelve million or so within that first weekend. Now I
don't know those are I.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Mean, you know, it was interesting because I realized, like,
what was the thing that made Dahmer so.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Popular? And I think it was it was scary. Yeah,
you know, it.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Was your secret about the guy next door who's you know,
doing dastardly things. Menindez I always thought was smaller because
it was a raw Mons story who'd done it? Like
why not who done it? But why did they do it?
I was surprised.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
I was. I was very surprised that.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
It became such a lightning rod literally within a day.
I was very surprised initially that the brothers spoke out
so vociferously against it. And I was very surprised where
you know, two months ago they thanked me and said,
you know, actually you helped us, like you you did
a good thing. I was surprised at that. I'm always
(19:36):
I'm always surprised at success and I always expect failure.
I guess you're that guy. You yeah, Because like you know,
I have always lived my life as a Catholic.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I was an altar boy.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Right, So my motto on my life, I mean in
the choir of all things, yes, and running cross country.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Don't forget I was a.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Job a little bit forgiving.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
My motto in my life has been, guess what happens
when the pope dies?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
You get a new pope.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
That's always what I have been raised to think. So
if something doesn't work out, roll up your sleeves and
try again. You know, when I started off, I was
in a writer's group of six people. I was in
two writers groups. The first one. They were all much
more talented than me. But the problem was they just
they gave up. They got one rejection and they literally psychologically.
(20:27):
You know, you're in politics. It's it's devastating when you're
not chosen, you know. And in politics, like in show business,
you've won big. You know that feeling where you win,
and you also know the feeling well maybe not, I
don't think you've ever really publicly lost that much, but
you know you've you've had a bit.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Of recall efforts, I mean, to the edge, but.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
You beat it.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
There's no but the loss that I've had experience.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
And you know, I've had friends who've run for big
offices and lost and it's devastated, it's personal, and I guess.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
You just feel that way. You felt that way, but
you were resilient.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I just was like, what can I learn from it?
And I always take to my bed for a day,
you know, I always am like, I have a martini
and take to my bed. But then I'm like, all right, well,
what are you going to do here? You go on
because the next one might be a hit. And in
my case, I've been blessed enough that that's exactly what
happened in my career.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Honestly, do you you just write a list down of
all these crazy ideas. You're on a trip, taking a vacation,
and then you see, you know, I don't know, you
see a statue of someone. You're like, I'm going to
do a movie on Marcus Aurelius or something.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Or Da Vinci.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
No one's talked about Da Vinci, and he's you know,
he's an interesting character. And then ten years later you
go back to the diary and you go, oh, yeah,
what about that Da Vinci idea?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I do have a little black book that it always
starts off, what about dot dot dot right? I have
that I've been writing ideas down for you know, twenty
two years. The model of my careers always do the
opposite of what you just did. So, for example, if
you look at my fall in September, I have nine
one one Nashville, which is very straight up the middle Americana.
(22:16):
Good guys solve, you know, solving problems. You root for
them heroes, right, And then I did the complete opposite
of that, which then in October comes Monster season three,
which is about ed Gean.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yeah, do you know what Gan? No?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Okay, Psycho was based on ed Geen America. Silence of
the Lambs just based on that.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Jesus, I don't want to watch it.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Why do you want to watch all this negative stuff?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
I don't know that it's negative. You like, you love
all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I remember, by the way, the Menendez that we were
having full disclosure. I think it was a lunch we
did and you start talking to me about this and
you all but said I'm sorry. You said you're sorry,
and I was like, I didn't fully appreciate. Oh right,
you were. I think, I mean sorry.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
I'm not sure what people are going to say, but
I think I think, well.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
This is what I knew from them an indes thing.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
You know, I moved to la in nineteen eighty nine,
so that was when you're new to a city, and
that double, you know, almost had happened soon after I
was you know, when I would see Dominic Donn at
the Chateau Marmont.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
And you know.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
What I was aware of is that during COVID a
lot of young people on TikTok had made it a thing,
and I kind of, you know, I'd like to be
aware of what people are saying culturally. Listen, it hadn't
even aired, but I think what I said to you,
if TikTok is any indication, I think people will be
very interested in this.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
But again, I don't know. It could be a bomb. Yeah.
And the reason and I said we'll talk in here,
we are we'll.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Talk only because you knew cause and effect and great
it will bring this back. There'll be conversations about their
sentencing ultimately led to their resentencing. And we're just a
few weeks away August twenty. First and second, I think
where the pro board is going to make a decision
and make a recommendation, it lands on my desk, mister Murphy.
(24:16):
That's heavy stuff, heavy stuff, and you know what, intentionally,
and I remember that conversation with you. I remember going
back and I kept having a temptation to want to
see it, but with the recognition always back in my
mind that this thing may land on my desk. I
don't want to be persuaded by something that's not in
the files.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah, I get that. But also I think it's interesting because.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
When I was writing it, you know, we had an
interesting writer's room where I was the one person in
the room who kept saying, I'm not so, I don't
think they.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Should get out. I was the voice of like, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
I told me this at the lunch. I remember, yes, And.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
You know what I think that was is I think
generation generationally, young people have a much different way of
identifying and talking about and navigating abuse than we did.
It's just like I remember that trial too. It wasn't
even something you could imagine or you know, people our
age are very different than younger people in terms of
(25:28):
what they see as abuse and can talk about it.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
We did not, So in a weird way, what has happened.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Through the show is I was really really educated a
lot by the other people in the writer's room and
by the actors. I was astonished at how I went
into something with such a predetermined point of view and
came out of it at the end of it thinking,
you know where I am today is I really do
think they should be released. I do think they should
(25:55):
be paroled. And I did not think that when I
started that is that.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Evolved very recently. It evolved over the course of just
that that discourse with friends, people observing, people that watched it. Mean,
is it tell me what's been your journey in terms
of coming to that conclusion?
Speaker 2 (26:19):
It was just a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
It was it was learning about Listen, what happened between
the Menindaz brothers was between them and their two parents,
and nobody else will ever know what happened, right. What
happened to me was there was a lot of very
interesting voices in my path along the way. You know,
for example, one of my good friends who's the star
(26:43):
of one of my shows coming up, Kim Kardashian. You
may have heard of her, arguably the most famous woman
on the.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Face of the earth.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
You know, she's a very big victims rights advocate, and
she's very very smart, and she's you know, I can't
even get her on the phone to talk about our
show right now because she's practicing for the bar.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
And she's constantly reaching out talking about cases advocating for
our fire crews that are part of our estates prison
I mean a lot of substance there.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Yeah, She's an amazing person and very very educated about
this topic. And so she went she she watched the show.
I sent it to her early because she said, what
can I see this? And I sent it to her early. Yeah,
And she was really obsessed with it and then went
to visit them and then called me up and said,
(27:34):
you know, like I really feel like they deserve to
be parolled.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
And I said why.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
And she talked a lot about a really interesting points
of view that I had not really thought about, which is,
you know, they were they were under twenty five, you know,
which I think is an interesting point of view. Yeah,
there's many studies that shows, you know, the prefrontal cortex
for men do not fully develop, So there's that argument. Also,
(28:02):
they've been modeled prisoners. Also, if I was very moved
by their family recently and how the family is so unified,
and I guess it just begs the question, like if not,
now when like, what benefit to society do we have
by keeping them there? If they can come out of
(28:23):
prison and actually serve some good, right, I think that's
a powerful thing.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, it's interesting. The flip side is I've had people
say what good can come from sending a message that
you can kill both of your parents and be released? Sure,
well as society benefited with them being released, which is
I mean, it's interesting. The prole process is a much
more limited process. You can't even get it. The conversation
there is have they exercised a process to rehabilitate themselves
(28:53):
and through an independent psych evaluation and risk assessment, are
they quote unquote suitable for parole on the basis of
in prison behavior and a series of other criteria that's
well established and laid out. And so it's an almost
separate it's not almost, but it is a separate question
then the broader feeling of whether or not it's the
(29:14):
right or wrong thing. So it's an interesting for these things.
That's why for me, I didn't want to be colored
or don't want to be colored by sort of the
atmospheric So I had to deal with this with on
which was that was I mean, that's a whole another
one of these days, we'll see your your efforts. I
want to see what you pulled together. I think had
enough of me.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
May well, what do I ask you about?
Speaker 3 (29:34):
What about you know one of the recent Manson girls tough?
Speaker 2 (29:38):
How did you make that decisions? Brutal?
Speaker 1 (29:40):
I mean, I've had I've had multiple opportunities and the
burden opportunities, the gift bananan one's perspective to make judgments
on that. There's a number of the Manson folks that
have been rejected by the last three governors that I
rejected a few times. The last rejection was overturned by
(30:01):
the court that felt we were we were abusing our
discretion in our prole office.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
And they're tough.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
I mean, And it's thinks notoriety works in both ways, right,
it works absolutely for you, but it is a sword
used against you at the same time. And I think
that's what the Menendez what what what your series did
is it really elevated that conversation as well, because there
are a lot of other people in prison that don't
get any attention, that don't even get in front of
(30:29):
the parole board, that don't have advocates that don't have
Kim Kardashian making phone calls, that don't have their day
in court, so to speak, at least the court of
the parole board. And uh. And so it's, you know,
it's trying to balance all that. Same time, you've got
people that were releasing that have done equivalent or worse,
(30:50):
that have spent.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Less time right less time.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
It's a very it's a very slippery slope and it's
a really hard road. And I feel for you, but
you know, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
It's sort of like.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
The penal system in this country operates differently than any
other country on Earth, and you have to question why
and like, I mean, my god, if they could get
out and help two people, like, isn't that worth it
in some way?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Maybe I'm being too catholic about it all, but I
was astonished that I flipped, and I really did flip,
and I flipped.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
I don't I don't remember how long ago that launch was,
but you were you were definitely not there.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
I was not because you asked me blank and I said,
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I was very on the fence about it.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
And yeah, and also I just think listening to people
younger than you was part of the job for me
at this point. Yeah, it reminds me of the general
there's a big generational shift happening in like Hollywood in particular,
and also maybe I'm just that age. But I tried
(32:01):
to listen with an open heart and educate myself about
abuse and victims and it was an interesting process for me.
And of course I love the show so much because
you asked me, why are you making this gross thing
all the time?
Speaker 1 (32:15):
No, I've been back to yeah, back to what We'll get
back to the Hannibal lecter of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Like well, like it's a it's a it's a point
of view, like try to.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Relax here, and you're making me watch this stuff. I'm
trying to go to bed.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
I got a beautiful, buzzy law show coming up with.
I need to be relaxed, you need.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
I got enough stress in my life. Okay, Yeah, you're
introducing all this additional anxiety.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I know murdered Dahmer.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Seriously, see, maybe you can now with you get this
what the twenty first twenty second? Yeah, then you can
watch the Meninda's Brothers over your labor day and.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
Maybe I'm going to do see if I made the
right right like before, I would love for you to
watch it actually, because the thing about that show that
I love is asked the question are monsters made or
are they born?
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And your and what is your Ultimately?
Speaker 3 (33:02):
I think ultimately in the case of these two brothers,
I think they were made made.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, and you think that's always the case.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
I think that's what I love about the show, Like
if it's very complicated, like you can be. You know,
if you think about season three which is coming up,
where Charlie Hunting plays Ed Green, which is not you know,
for the squeamish, but really what it is about is
this was an This was a person who was mentally ill,
(33:31):
who is an undiagnosed schizophrenic his entire life, and not
until it was too late, till he was in prison,
I believe in his fifties was he diagnosed. So it
really is sort of a story about mental health and awareness.
That's what I love about telling this for the stories.
I'm not in it for the blood, I'm not in
(33:51):
it for the gore. I'm in it for like, well,
what is it was he made or was he born?
Speaker 2 (33:55):
That way?
Speaker 3 (33:56):
I think that that story of Ed Geen is both
he was born that way and made that way.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, and are you do you do?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I mean, so you have a team doing that research,
but you're writing I mean you're I mean as you're
writing this, is it coming from your own research?
Speaker 3 (34:12):
I mean on all of my shows that are are
you know? True stories? I always say based on my research,
Like I have a very large amount of researchers who
spend years before we write something like if you look
at at Geen JFK. Carolyn Bassett, we spend a lot
(34:35):
of time, you know, because those things what you try
and do with the biopic, right is you don't want
to do a Wikipedia thing. You want to find like
the most bizarre factoys. Then you're like, oh that, like yeah, yeah,
you know. I remember when we were doing Dummer. I
was astonished by the fact that he and I never
heard this before, that he in prison would play whale
(34:59):
noises to fall asleep.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
You can't make that up, No, you cannot make that up.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
So it's like, well we have to put that and
that launched the sound of the score, like it's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
You should watch it. You would like it.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Don't you get handled gleat what.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Is your favorite show on TV? Right now? As a
pop culture guy, you watch stuff.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I watch a little stuff, not a lot of stuff.
You you called me to say you got to watch
The Politician.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Remember you did that? Okay, so you're going.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
To watch that. Watch that.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
You're just guy, right, I want I love that.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Makes me feel good, like a little tear in my eye,
and I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I love that show.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Yeah, right, last great life is So here's the thing
about hard, right, well, this is my business, does this right?
Life is hard. Everybody's struggling. So I think you either
want to watch something that makes you forget it and
makes you laugh and it's light, or you want something
that is dark where you can put your anxiety into true.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
I did that with OJ. I mean that was next level,
was fantastic. I was, come on, yeah, that was a
good one.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
What good?
Speaker 1 (36:03):
It was great?
Speaker 2 (36:04):
I loved doing it.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Wasn't that was off the charts good.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
But again that was like that had been kicking around,
nobody wanted to make that. It's it's funny about you
think now, like, well, yeah, the home Run, but it was.
It's it's always interesting to me about what because it
you know, when we were making it. So many people said,
why are you making this to me? And I was like,
(36:29):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I like the story, you know,
Host
Gavin Newsom
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