March 18, 2025 • 48 mins
On this episode of Throttle Therapy, Katherine is joined by the legendary Lyn St. James, 1992 Indy 500 Rookie of the Year and co-founder of Women in Motorsports North America. They discuss the importance of career development off the track, finding your home in racing, and their thoughts on all-female competitions.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Throttle Therapy with Catherine Legg is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Hey you guys, Welcome to
(00:21):
Throttle Therapy with Me, Katherine Legg. I've obviously come off
a pretty rough first NASCAR weekend. It was a long
week and I've got a lot of work to do
for redemption and to come back. But I'm going to
take a few days with my very good friend Kara
(00:42):
Chris Dolin. She is the head engineer for Bridgestone Firestone
Racing in North America. We've been friends for a very
long time and we're going to go and let our
hair down and do some skiing this weekend, so that
will be a lot of fun. This week, we are
talking to the wonderful Lincent James. Lynna is a legend
(01:06):
who came up through the racing ranks a little bit
before me, when it was a little bit harder, and
she definitely was breaking barriers and glass ceilings and has
dedicated her life to the pursuit of women in motorsport
and she's become a very good friend of mine, a
sounding board and as I said before, an absolute legend. Hi,
(01:35):
Lindcent James, how are you he?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Hello, Well, Locut, thank you. I'm just glad to be
a part.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I've been watching these and I'm like, I wonder if
she'll ever reach out.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
To me and write, of course you're on the list.
Like pretty early on, I think it was who do
you want to go on the podcast? And I think
your name was like first or second after my dad.
So I want to actually start off before I get
you to tell everybody what you've achieved in your momentous career.
(02:04):
I want to start off with a little story about
how you and I met and then I will let
you take it from there. But from my perspective, I
reached out to you as a young race card driver
in England when you were doing a shootout for the
Indie Lights series back in the day. I think it
(02:24):
was like two thousand and four and you were doing
it with Catherine Nunn, Monan's wife. You were helping her
to run a team in Indie Lights and you wanted
to find the next female race card driver stuff. So
I read about this in England. I read about this,
and so I reached out to Lindsay James and I said, Hi,
my name's Catherine leg I'm the best girl race card
driver you'll ever see ever. Can I come and be
(02:47):
part of your shootout? Please? And I got an email
pack saying never heard of you? And I said, okay,
can I come and watch then? And I bought my
helmet and I got on a plane and I showed up.
I think that was in Phoenix. Was that not in Phoenix?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
That was in Texas?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
You're right, it was Texas, and I met you, and
I met Catherine, and I met the team, and I
did the shoot out and I won the won the event,
and then unfortunately the sponsorship didn't happen and it fell through.
But that's how I got to know about you and
your program of helping young female drivers, and then I
kind of became part of it. And after that the
rest is history. We became friends, and you've obviously been
(03:26):
somebody that I can go to for advice and help
and everything since. But I've known you for now over
twenty years.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Then absolutely, But I'm going to now tell the story.
You had a couple of them weeks, so they aren't
quite accurate. Of course, your memory and my memory are
just different, but you had it right until.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
My response was not that I know I was being funny.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
My response was that Catherine is making the decisions, Catherine
Nunn and not me. And I went to Catherine and
she said no, because you're coming all the way from
Mangeland and she, you know, I had a hard time
convincing her. She just wanted who's the best driver in
and she was just going to go with that. I said,
the best way is to do the shootout. And as
it turned out, we got a lot of publicity around
(04:09):
the shootout. And I said, well, i'll help you would
give you a list. You weren't on the list because
I didn't know you existed. You contacted me. I then
added that to the list and she said no, because
you're coming over from England and what if you don't
get a blah blah blah. When I saw the lineup,
I contacted you. I said, you get your butt over here.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, yeah you did.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
And I did get there and you did, and you did.
You showed up. You know they'd because it was a
multi day test, and you showed up and you did
win and it wasn't the sponsorship fell through? She just
pulled the plug.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Oh really, I heard that it was the money and
the money didn't come through.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, that may be it, but I think it was
not too long after that Boat shut his team down.
So I think you know that there was anyway. Maybe
it was sponsorship, but I was only and Catherine just
said I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So the other girl that was there said, go, she's
a woman.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Now.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Was Sarah McCune. I often think I wonder she was
the only other one. I think that was being considered
at the time. I wonder what happened to her? Have
you ever heard anything from her? Said?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Well, I haven't, you know. And there's so many like
that that came to my driver development program or it's
like Sarah McCune, and it's like, I have no idea.
In most cases, I have no idea what happened to them.
But you know, I think of her because I also
think like Kaylee Bryson and some of the other girls
that are doing midgets and sprint cars, you know that
that's there was a Sarah McCune, you know, and she
(05:33):
was kind of a contemporary with Sarah Fisher. But Sarah
Fisher was still not on the horizon yet.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So yeah, so I want to actually talk about the
driver development and like what that's changed into and what
you're doing now. But I, first of all, I was
at Daytona this year for when you were honored, and
there were things in that presentation that even I, being
a Lindcent James fan and a friend of yours for
(05:57):
a number of years, did not know. And so so
I wanted you to give our listeners the same experience
that I had during that presentation in a way, and
tell them all the incredible things, starting at the beginning,
how you got starts dem racing. You don't have to
go into great detail. You can do the cliff note version,
but I want them to know Lynn's epic, like you're
(06:19):
a badass like I had. I only knew about fifty
percent of it. Honestly, I know it's a tool order
and a big ass, But start from the beginning and
just give us a brief but expensive overview of everything
that you achieved.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Well, it's interesting because again I think people that are
IndyCar fans because Indy's so big, it's like, oh, they
know what I did at Indy, right, and then the
people that are sports car people, you know, imps of
people a sports car. The decade of the eighties was
really my ims A decade. So sometimes they don't overlap,
but it started in the seventies. We're just an SECA,
So I just started as an amateur, went to driver school,
(06:51):
got my competition license, started out in a Ford Pinto, moved
up to a Cosword Vega, and all I wanted to
do was the national champion. I mean to me, I
just wanted to be a national champion in SECA. Went
to the runoffs in a Cosworth Vega. Blew an engine,
had driven the car to the track, had no backup car,
don't I know nothing. I didn't have a you know,
engine builder or anybody that I was dead, you know, even.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Though I and you didn't come from money either.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
No no, no, no, no exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So you did it clawed from the from the ground up.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And I mean we had a
auto parts business and I sold shock absorbers, and we
had another consumer electronics business, and you know, we were
just two people trying to make a living. Who became
we were both car guys. Car you know. He took
me to the nty five hundred on my second date.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
And you know, it's that's a good that's a good
second that he did well.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Then yeah, so you know, then I went to the
twenty four Hours of Daytona as a spectator for the
first time after I moved to Florida to start the
business with him, and I had never seen sports car
racing or endurance racing or anything like that, and it totally, totally,
I mean, it just got hooked. And I went to Seabury,
became a member of SCCA, found out you had to
go to school to get a competition license, and that's
(08:05):
how it all started on my own dollars. And then
a couple of things happened. I mean, I do believe
someone in you know, there's tipping points, there's destiny whatever
you want, and then there's you work hard to get
into your destiny. But I saw an article and Car
and Driver magazine that was about a Ford product. But
there was a sidebar article and it was entitled Ford
(08:26):
and Feminism and it said for this was in nineteen
seventy eight, and how Ford Motor Company wanted to create
support and create opportunities for women in non traditional areas
within the company, and so I figured that they needed
me because I could demonstrate that that commitment was alive
out to the public, you know. So I wrote them
letters that I wrote them letters for three years trying
(08:48):
to get a meeting, and I did get a meeting,
but not until nineteen eighty. But in nineteen seventy eight
I also got a deal. Was contacted the only time
I've been contacted by a team owner or a car
owner when Rhade Atlanta was bought by the Whittingtons. I mean,
this is kind of good trivia stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
This is this is stuff I didn't know either. Yeah,
where is the deal?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
When they bought that track, there was this old Plymouth
Malare in one of the garages or shops, and this
guy in in Oklahoma, brand dole knew about it. He
bought the car. He contacted MS talked to John Bishop
and asked if there's a woman driver because Kelly's Services
(09:35):
had just decided to sponsor a new series called the
Kelly American Challenge and John Bishop. I was told this
by John Bishop, gave him my name, gave him my number,
and said she's the best one. She drives like a man.
And he and it was meant to be a compliment, really,
(09:59):
so I raised that season. It cost three thousand dollars.
I had to buy the ride for three thousand dollars,
so I had to borrow. My husband wouldn't give it
to me. I had to borrow three thousand dollars from
a friend. And then because I finished second seventy nine
hundreds of a second behind Jane Felton and was the
top female driver, I won like thirty five hundred dollars,
(10:21):
so I could pay this thought three thousand dollars back
to the guy that the film, and I had a
whole lop at five hundred.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Dollars, So you didn't share it with your husband, saying
he was too tired.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I's pretty mad at him at that point. So I
ran that whole season on that same kind of a deal.
Then they had a bonus prize money at the end
of the year. He got all that, the owner got
all the prize money, and I was so excited that
maybe the next year I would be able to go
for the whole championships overall. And that's what he told me.
I mean, I'm going to tell you this, you know
what he told me. I'm gonna forget this. It was
(10:53):
the finale that the finale used to be an oop
at Daytona, like around Thanksgiving weekend, A meeting with this
car owner. And I'm excited because I was in People magazine.
I could go into that because I raced over at
the durber Ring and had won the race and he
was in the picture, and so I figured, I made
this guy a hero, right. And I am sitting with
(11:14):
him ready to have a meeting to negotiate the fact
that I'm going to run the next season. And he said,
I'm not running next year. I said, what do you mean,
You're not running next year? My wife thinks we're having
an affair. Oh Jesus, And that's what he told me.
I looked at him like, you have got to be
kidding me. And so I had no deal the next year.
(11:35):
So that's what I and I was already talking to Ford,
and I finally got a meeting with Ford. And I
ran races. I ran one Offs, I ran seaver Ring,
I ran Daytona. I ran in an acid Martin Nimrod.
I mean, I just did whatever I could do to
get in a race car. I mean, I remember showing
up the test in the first of the year at Daytona,
which is now called the Roar. It used to just
(11:57):
be an open test. I showed up because I lived
in Florida. I'd show up with my helmet and suit
and everything. And Jim Bell was at the party that
you're talking about on October thirtieth. I invited him because
he was there running the Whittington's in A nine thirty
five and they were testing before the twenty four and
I walked up to him and introduced myself and I said,
(12:21):
you know, I'm really looking for a ride. I don't
know what the hell I said. Jim came up to
me maybe two or three hours later, and he said, hey,
to bring your gear. I said, I sure did. He said, oh,
Bill Whittington wants to borrow it. I was like, I mean,
my face went from being excited to them being and
then he looked at me and he laughed and he said,
(12:42):
I'm only kidding. Gear up, Bill Done Whittington is going
to leave, and he said you could serve some laps.
I got to turn it lapse at a nine thirty
five at that test.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
And I remember when I sat in that car. I mean,
I the most powerful thing I'd ever raised was a Corvette.
And I sat in this nine thirty five and I
just remember two things. One, I sat there after I
got all hit, you know, I got all suited up.
I'm sitting in the car and now I'm not moving.
Jim puts the door down, closes the door, and I'm
looking for the starter button. And he opens the door
(13:13):
and he goes, what are you waiting for? I said,
I don't know how to start it. He said, turn
the key. Porsches have it the key, yeah, like, rather
than a starter button. Because it was basically a street
car that day turned into a race car that I
think nine thirty fives. And then he looked at me
and he said, I'm going to just give you one
piece of advice. Either you drive it or it's going
to drive you. Good advice because that that turbo comes
(13:36):
on and you've got so much power and you don't
feel it until it comes on. Because of that ride,
I got to race a nine thirty five at the
twelve hours of seabreing that year. So I mean, you
just scrape and dig I said, you always be at
the track, always have your gear, Always talk to people,
always let people know who you are, what you've done,
(13:58):
and how how much you want to do it.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
You know, show them you're just why am I still
doing that? Then?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Because you have Catherine? I mean, I think unless you've
got an agent or somebody that's out there doing it
for you. And there's a couple of the gals today
I know that do that. I mean, they have somebody
representing them, and that representative hopefully has a good relationship
and a good reputation and talks to the kerchiefs or
team managers, and so I didn't have that back then.
(14:29):
But the reality is there are so many more race
car drivers than there are seats available. I don't care
what series you're telling about. And the higher you go,
the harder that is, the more drivers there are in
those than they're exactly. So somebody's got to be speaking
up there, letting them know what you can do. So
I spent the decade of the eighties racing for Ford.
(14:51):
I wanted to share some of those only because I
just didn't even think about it. They just came out
of how they happened, And you know Ford, I bugged
them for three years for sponsorship. I finally got it.
I ran the Kelly Series, and then and then I
raced whatever Ford told me to race. I mean, the
good news is I got in the door. I had to.
I negotiated my own deals. I had one year contracts,
(15:13):
but I always wanted to do the endurance races, and
sometimes that didn't include the endurance races. You know, So
I just I just I just raced whatever the hell
I could race. I mean, it really was. They had
me drive an off road pickup truck.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Is they at least pay you good money?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Well, they didn't pay me. The only time I got
money when I ran my own car the first year.
But I realized was that, hey, I'm not a good
team owner or team manager. I can't do this. I
can't wear both hats. So I went back and renegotiated
during that year for a personal service contract. So I
(15:50):
had a racing contract and I had a personal service contract.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Smart lady.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
The racing contract, that money went to the team. I
didn't get it right. Yeah, the personal service contract, and
I went from making I had to guarantee fifty appearances
a year, which is a lot.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Besides, that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
But I needed to make some money, you know, even
though I had my own business, and whatever money I
was making, I was also using it to get these
other rides when Ford.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Was and to get yourself there and accommodation and everything else.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I'm guessing yeah, yeah, And I'm very proud of the
fact that how much I was making for the first
couple of years per a day for appearance based on
because I had fifteen years of one year contracts and
every year I've negotiated.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
And made a little bit more money.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I was building value, you know, because of I mean
it was a win win. They were winning because of
the success I was having on the racetrack. I was
winning because of the success I was having, and because
I was involved with Ford Motor Company and I was
actually starting to make a little more money, and so
you know, all of the pieces kind of went up
the records at Talladega that I did. I convinced Ford
(17:01):
that we needed to do that. I pitched Ford to
do that. The first time. It was in the Ford
Probe because I wanted to race the Ford Probe and
I was racing the Mustangs, and the head of Ford
Racing was this German by the name of Michael Crnifice
who a didn't want me on the team, but had
(17:22):
to because of the Ford sponsorship. I came with the
Ford sponsorship. B didn't think that I, I mean, he
didn't want a woman on the team, and he didn't
think I was good enough. And I wanted to drive
the big car. I wanted to drive the big car.
I wanted to drive the Ford Probe. So I thought, well,
if I can take that car around Talladega and go
at two hundred and twenty or two and thirty miles
(17:42):
an hour, then I'm going to convince him that I
can drive that race car. And so I did. I
didn't go that fast on and went to a four.
But and the next season I got to race the Probe.
And then I saw Ford was directing more and more
towards a DASCAR. So I decided maybe I should try
to convince them that I should go NASCAR racing. Because
(18:06):
what's different between a NASCAR and a big Ford Bustang
gt O car. You know so many things I didn't
know that I learned. So I convinced them to take
the Ford Thunderbird, which was a brand new supercoop body
that they were coming out for their production car. And
I went to Talladega to break the records that I'd
(18:28):
already set and break my own records, and a bunch
of more. I convinced Bill Elliott and his team to
build the car and we went and successfully went to
twelve average speed. But Catherine, I hated that car. Why
hated it? It was numb.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Feedback.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
This is in nineteen eighty eight, so they were a
lot different than they are now. I turned the wheel
and nothing happens, And I mean it was numb. It's
the best way I could put it. And I spent
two days and I couldn't wait till it was over.
Three weeks later, I got an opportunity to drive an
IndyCar for the first time, and I made up my
(19:07):
mind in October of nineteen eighty eight, if I'm going
to climb this mountain, it's going to be that mountain
and not trying to get into stock cars.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Not a numb race car either. Like at least you
get feedback from that one.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Oh yeah, you know, for I mean lots of feedback obviously.
I mean the first time, the first time in the IndyCar,
it was at Memphis. It was which is a drag
strip that they do a lot of testing at the
very first lab, I go around and I come down
the front straight away, and I thought, okay, I go
really fast down the front straight away because I you know,
and then I put my foot on the brake to
go through turn one and I'm not used to having
brakes that work like that. The car literally stopped on
(19:41):
the racetrack. I had to put it in first scare
to drive down to the corner.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Was like, oh my god, I'm so you'd never driven
anything with downforce before that moment.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I drive in an open wheel car twice before. I
raced in the June Sprints in a Formula Ford in
like nineteen eighty two, and I had raced here at
Phoenix in a like what would be equal to a
formul Atlantic car in a support race when they had
the Formula one race downtown Phoenix. Those are the only
(20:13):
two times I'd ever been in an open wheal car.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Wow, did you want to do Formula one if you
were in the support race? Did do you ever have
the never?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
No? You know, they used to because Jackie Stewart was
also a Ford spokesperson, so they would, you know, always had,
and Ford for a while actually owned a Formula One team,
And I mean I looked at that and went, that's
way over my I mean, that's so complicated, and now
it's even more complicated. And I also knew, you know,
all my goals were doable for me. Everything I did
(20:41):
that I set as a goal. I thought, it's because
I know I can do it, and I think I
can convince others. Formula one, I knew there was no way.
Why I try to chase something that you just know
there's absolutely no way.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, I think it has to be achievable. I think though,
had you found racing as a kid and done go
coating and done everything like that, I think it would
have been achievable. It was just the circumstance that you
came into it. But I mean, what a career. It
reminds me a little bit of mine in a way
in that you race anything and everything that you got
(21:13):
the opportunity to race. And if you look at the
long list, like I did when we were at that
thing at Daytona in the museum there, it was so cool. Honestly,
like it still gives me goosebumps to think about that,
because like when you see how much you jumped around
from different cars and what you achieved and like just
the tenacity and the and the grit and everything. I mean,
(21:38):
it's honestly, it's inspirational because you don't really meet many
people like us, right, Like it's I think we're definitely
a different breed and for me to be able to
see it in you, it gives me some power back too,
you know, like it's it's been. It's been a wild ride,
and I know that we did things very differently in
a way, but it's really neat to see that there
(22:02):
are so many different parallels too.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, I mean I think I've told people, I mean,
a you have more natural talent than I do. I mean,
I absolutely watching the way you stepped in that test,
you know that would have been then called indie lights
and see you and see you run. I've watched you
a lot run in sports cars in Daytona and all that,
and I just you have a lot of natural ability
(22:26):
and you're willing to work hard. I mean that's that's
a lot of times people that have a lot of
natural ability are lazy. You know that it comes easy
to them and they don't work very hard. So and
you know the passion that you have, I feel we
have that very much in common and also just the
stick to itiveness, not to be, not to give up,
you know, doesn't mean we don't get disappointed or discouraged
(22:49):
or you know, there's times I've been, oh my god,
there's so many times that I've either wanted to kill
somebody or or quit, you know, because I figured there's
no way. But I never that didn't around for very long,
and you know I wouldn't be. I just nobody was
going to deny me.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
I feel like I said, a blood But what would
you do if you did, if you weren't racing?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
You know, it's funny. I met Burku and I don't
know how to pronounce your last thing. But she's from
Turkey and she's the new head of the FA Woman
and Motorsports Commission. Lovely lady. She came over for our
summit in Indianapolis and December, and she's she's probably in
her forties, I think, you know, I mean, sheik's great though,
Yeah she does, but she's not like really young, you
(23:28):
know what I mean. She's not just twenty or thirty
years old or whatever. But so we kind of related
in a different way. But I remember her saying, so
what do you do? What do you mean what do
I do? Like, well, what do you do for fun?
I'm like, I don't have any nothing. I mean, I paint.
I've tried to paint, so I have painted a little bit,
(23:49):
but I look for other opportunities. I mean that at
that time, I was still vintage racing. I mean I was,
you know, I was planning to continue vintage racing until
I had that back crash in nineteen. So or I'm
at the races, staying current, learning I'm reading about it,
I'm going to race, and still I go to races
because that's the only way I can stay current. And
the fact that there are so many more young gals
(24:10):
racing now, I want to be able to watch them
race because if I don't see them race, and I
don't have this opportunity to see them, like this, anything
I read is almost irrelevant.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, it's not accurate.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
I've got to feel that energy. I have to see
that passion and I have to see some damn talent
in the car. So I am an observer or participant,
a fan, and I try to continue to be an
expert and to be able to be a mentor. To
do that, you have to stay current, do you.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Like cause as much as you like racing, or is
it more racing, because I remember seeing something with Anika
that said she was like, I have no interesting cause
really to well, I just love racing as a sport,
and I feel like I can relate to I love
cars too, but not to the extent that I love racing.
I think it's the sport that I fell in love
with rather than the cause.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I'm kind of curious about cars, and I know what
I like and what I don't like that I'm not
a car nut. The other thing is, it isn't even
just the racing. It's the driving something at the limit,
finding the limit, and then being able to do it.
I like testing more than I like racing. The only
reason why the racing spun is because that's what you're
(25:33):
really You're pitted against, you know where the hell you stand,
But testing you also know where you stand, you know
what a good time is there, you know you know.
But I love the testing because I love trying to
find that perfect flap, that perfect corner, you know, every time.
I mean, that's what excites me is that, Yeah, the sound,
(25:53):
the smell, being at the track and then looking for
that apex for every corner and feeling the car, feeling
how it changes, you know, how the tires change and
how the weight balance changes. And it's like, but I
drove that Indy car at Memphis. I was so pleased.
Dick said to the guy that was working on the car,
put ten gallons of fuel, bring her in, Let her
(26:15):
do ten laps, ten gallons of He wanted to keep
that the weight of the car balanced and the same
almost for the entire time because those weight changes really
make a difference, you know. So I just because I
didn't know what the hell I was doing at that point.
So anyway, I love the driving the race car. I'm
a good time driver. I'm a real good test driver
(26:35):
because I was told that by some tire engineers because
if they want, if they're going to change tires, they
don't want you to adapt. They want you to still
drive the way you go.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
And it's not that easy to get the perfect that.
Like you can chase the perfect that forever and ever
because the conditions are always changing and the tires are
always changing. You're always changing. It's cause getting light to
when it bends off fuel. And so yeah, I don't
think that anybody any where ever has ever got the
perfect lap? And you know what, you see the self
(27:06):
driving cars these days that are supposed to be able
to be programmed to do like the edge of the
grip if you like. I think maybe one day that
will take over from us. But I think that that's
what makes us for interesting, Like, well, I have something
that can go at the ultimate limit without making mistakes.
It's the mistakes and it's the learning and everything that
makes it interesting. But I love the competition too, like
the competition with yourself as much as with everybody else, right,
(27:28):
because mentally you're competing with yourself to be as good
as you can be. And then yeah, no hitting those marks,
making as few mistakes as possible, driving on the limit,
all of it. But yeah, I love it too, and
it's a passion. And I don't know what I will
do when I stop racing because I love it so much.
But I almost think that I want to follow in
your footsteps and help other young female drivers too. So
(27:52):
I'm just following you all the way up through. I'm
just being a mini a mini you.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
I originated here from FedEx. Yeah you were saying that,
so I mean, if you ever want a brainstarve about that,
my dear, I'm happy to do that. Yeah, I mean,
I think your passion can carry on past your time
in the race car.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Explain to us how you started your program, because I
didn't go through it in its entirety. I was lucky
enough to be part of it at times. But explain
why you started it. Explain what it was and some
of the people who came through it.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
For those of us listening, Well, I started in the
nineteen ninety four, so two years after I did Indy.
But I was still doing Indy.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Okay, you were still driving at the time you started it. Yeah,
that's interesting because I was thinking to myself, I'll wait
until the transition point so i can focus because I've
got like OCD where I want to put everything in
its neat and tidy box. But you were doing both
at the same time, which is crazy and awesome.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
But remember I was doing Indy only, so I mean
I only did I did fifteen IndyCar races over nine years.
The only year I had more than Indy was ninety
three and I had six races. So when I was
back to just one, I mean, to be honest, I
had to put it this way. It was like, oh,
I'm going to do the rest of the year. I
wanted to do more, and I was trying to get
(29:10):
sponsors to do more, but ultimately, you know, I only
had an India only program. And you know, after hanging
out with Billy Jim King for those years that I
went to the Women's Sports Foundation, I realized I have
to find a way to give back, a way to
make a difference. And then I got so much fan mail.
A lot of them were young drivers wanting advice. I'm like,
I don't know who these people are. I don't know
(29:31):
if they're any good. And I was also being interviewed
a lot saying that there were more coming and they're like, well,
then where are they. I'm like, I don't know. I
got to find them. So my deal was an invitation only,
and I literally would. I would scour National speed Sport
(29:52):
News every week and look at all the race results
and look for stories about a woman driver looking for
it and I only had usually the first initial in
the last names, you know. I mean, it was really
hard sometimes, and this was before we had the Internet
and you know, Google and all of that. But I
literally would and I started contacting sanctioning bodies, asking for
(30:13):
who do you know? Is there anybody any good that's
running at your track? So I created a program once
a year. I would only do it once a year.
I would max out at twenty people because I could
never remember more than twenty names over the course of
a weekend. I don't want to keep looking at name tags.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
And I had a vision, Catherine, of everything that it
took me so long to learn. And I thought, if
I can compress the learning time that these gals that
are out there racing and give them the tools that
in my mind they were like, go now they should go,
because now they shouldn't be held back by these things
(30:50):
that we don't know, because you don't know what you
don't know, you know, doctor Jacques de Laire, because I'd gone,
you know, with them, I'd worked with them since nineteen
eighty eight, and truly was.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
By the way, Yes, I saw him at Seabring. Still yeah,
it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
But if I hadn't met he and his partner at
that time, doctor Don Marsi, who has since passed away
from a heart attack, if I hadn't met the two
of them in nineteen eighty eight, that changed. My physical
fitness changed, my mental preparation changed by how I think,
how it changed everything about me. It took a while.
I was a hard one to convince, Oh, no, are
(31:25):
you really I can tell you in ninety two at Indy,
I would have not been able to do what I
did in ninety two at Indy had it not been
for doctor Shock. The training and I could go on
and on. I could do a whole session anyway. So
I asked doctor Je we.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Should, by the way, we should point out to the
business that Jacques de Laire is a mental coach, if
so they know who he is.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
He's actually a sports physiologist. His training is in the
physical part. But his partner with psychologists. There was the
brain guy in the body guy. But when when the
brain guy died, he had so much information from them
that he was able to borf and really develop that expertise.
But he is available. It's called human performance. Now. I
think performance, I mean because I think every race car
(32:11):
driver should have somebody good to help them train their brain,
because we are our worst enemies most of the time.
And then I had the whole We went to a
gym and I was it was in Indianapolis, where I
went and met with people at the gym and I
explained to them the stuff that we had to test.
Cardiovascular strength, flexibility, grip strength. We had a grip strength
(32:34):
so we had a whole training, physical training. They'd go
through this whole exercise with doctor Jack. On the mental
part of it, I hired a camera crew. They had
to be interviewed so that they could learn about media training.
And then every night at dinner, I had a nutritionist
prepare all the meals and so that they could learn
what they're supposed to eat, whether on the road or whatever.
(32:55):
Every night at dinner, I would pull a name out
of a hat and they did know who they were
who was going to get pulled that night, and they
had to get up and get a speech. Because as
a race car driver, when you're invited to go to
dinner and then say, oh tell it, tell the table,
you know, I mean, and most people aren't really good
at that, you know, and so.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Nope, oh that's scared of it.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
I mean I was, yeah, No, I mean I used
to used to break out in a rash if I
had to talk more than three people. So there was
media training, there was nutritional training. There was the physical
training there was, and then we went to the racetrack
and I had go carts. Everybody started in go carts
because I had to see could they really were they
really able to be a race car driver? And if
they passed the go kart test, then different years I
(33:39):
would have different cars. I mean when I was out here,
I did it at Bob Vodrat and so then we'd
have openmal cars and then we'd have closed wheel cars,
and you know, so there was on track. There was
one day of on track programming. So with four days,
I required one family member or one responsible person that's
in their life a test and with them. So this
(34:01):
wasn't like where you drop the kids off and then
go off somewhere because I wanted the parents because in
most cases kids were still living at home. I wanted
the parents to hear everything that we told them. So
I did that. I had over two hundred and thirty
drivers from thirty states in six countries. So we did
it at Daytona, we did it at Charlotte, we did
(34:21):
it at Indianapolis, and we did it in Phoenix. Over
that twenty plus years, and I could count on one
hand out of that two hundred and thirty of who
were really good.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Okay, who's the one that didn't make it that was
really good and should have made it?
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Oh my god. Her first name is Alison. She was
really good, and I was so pissed off because I
mean she just sort of she did some racing after that,
and then she dropped off the radar, and I was
asking somebody, I forget who, it's a long time ago,
what happened to Alison? She got married, and she got
(34:58):
married like a subcrew chief guy that works in NASCAR.
So she was really good, and I was disappointed. But
I mean Danica, Sarah, Milanie Troxel, actually Erica Anders came
through the program, Aaron Crocker. I was trying to think, well,
for sure, Aaron was really good.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
I mean, yeah, I'm surprised she didn't do more. I
thought she was going to be the one, honestly, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
And she could have been, but you know what happened there.
So I finally forgiven Ray. I wasn't for the longest time.
I was.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
It worked out for them in the end, exactly.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Just I was just with them and Kate, you know.
So yeah, I mean there is a certain I mean
Shay Holbrook was also an outstanding And the part of
it was they were really good, and then they also
took what we were telling them and at least started
to incorporate it into their program. I mean things like
writing thank you notes for the people that help you,
you know, the returning phone calls. Of course now it's
(35:53):
emails and everything. But I mean I had like Linda
Kanti came in and would talk about finances, talk about
how to manage your fine, what are you going to
do if you actually get sponsorship. I had John Bickford,
which is Jeff Gordon's Oh Sarah. He recommended Sarah Fisher
to come. He actually paid for Sarah. I charged five
hundred dollars, by the way, five hundred dollars for four days.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
That's really good.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
And that's what I did through my foundation. I raised
money to help because I had to pay for all
of the resources that we had, you know, But I
just the way I looked at it is that it
was mostly the off track tools that you need to
be successful, because if you're running sprint cars or you're
running drag racinger, you know, every one of those. The
on track part is different, but the off track part
(36:38):
is the same to sort of clarify women in motorsports
in North America is about all disciplines of racing, for
all careers, for women in all careers in racing.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Which is important, very important. Racing is not just about
us as drivers, even though we're inherently selfish. I think
it is about the engineers and the mechanics, and the teams,
and the and the sponsors and like this, so many
other aspects.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, because that will help generate more support for the
women drivers, because now they'll see that this is actually,
you know, women can be successful in this industry. That
it will kind of help break some you know down.
But I also have not I have not given up
on women race car drivers. So I mean there's still
me who is passionate about wanting to figure out what
(37:24):
you just said, how can we get more women winning?
I mean that's I want to see that desperately, and
that I'm not expecting women in motorsports North America to
be that solution necessarily, you know. I just sometimes I
want to defend the fact that I want a women
to win.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
I don't think you need to defend it. I think
I want it to And maybe here and then the
future you and I can. It's start something that helps
that to happen in some way shape to be continued TVC.
(38:03):
Why do you think there's been this gap behind my
generation than the Danikas and the Simonas and the Anni
Beatrices and the me and then you look at like
I thought Jamie did a great job last year, but
then Jamie said it was too physical for her and
went back and did sports cars, which was disappointing honestly,
because I thought maybe we had somebody coming in. But
(38:25):
now there seems to be this big gap and this
big hole, and there's nobody winning in the lower formula
like we did at the time. Why do you think
that that is? Do you think it's just cyclical or
do you think there's a reason for it.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Well, there's more numbers now. At least, there are more
females racing now than I think there were for the
any of the decades before, and they are actually more
of them are capable of being good. I don't really know.
I have some theories. First of all, I shouldn't say.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
This, but do you can know anyway, I somehow think
the women when they don't succeed and if they have,
and one of the biggest words that can get us
in trouble is that word expectation.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
So I think Danica set the bar that everybody felt
that they could do what Danica did, you know? And
when that didn't happen, whatever level they were racing at,
I think they get discouraged sooner and easier because they
also they look at the world and say, you know,
there's other things I can do. They see options. The
(39:29):
majority of the guys that race they can't do anything else.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, well I can't do anything else.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
They don't have a plan B. But they don't have
a plan B. Yeah, I think a lot of the
gals and if they've done it for seven or eight years,
and the other is that they're doing it out of
their parents' pocket. I mean they're still doing it out
of their parents' pocket. And so if the money doesn't
show up from and they expect again that word expectation,
because they have accomplished something better than let's say average
(39:59):
on their parents or friends' money, they don't understand that
that isn't enough to get to that next level.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
What do you make of this all female one? Make
series with that runs with that one? The Academy or
what was the W Series? What are your thoughts on it?
Have we ever discussed that? No?
Speaker 2 (40:19):
I don't think we are.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
I didn't think we have.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
I mean, when the W Series was announced, I was
on the fence but also pretty much against it, but
was careful, you know, I needed to learn more because
it was, let's face that it hadn't been done yet,
and they hadn't when they announced it. We didn't see
what it was really going to be like, right, And
then I got to over to Ostrica and was part
of the original selection process. I watched them go fifty
(40:43):
drivers go through that test, the initial test, and realized
that it actually was The intentions were really to provide
a quality on track experience at the level that we're
talking about, which is not really entry level, but it's
let's just say it's the lower of the level. I mean,
it's after you get past the entry level of whatever
it is you're doing. Now you're on that bottom wrong
(41:05):
of the ladder to that next step up. So I
think that having a series that commits to good race cars,
good crews working on the race cars, if it is
all females, it's it's creating an opportunity for them to
race that they probably wouldn't have any quality program. Plus
they usually they did at the W Series, and I
(41:26):
know they're doing it at F one Academy. Is they
are providing the off track training that we're talking about.
They have to do media training, they've got fitness. They
really bring in all of the elements, so it's a
quality experience. I don't believe we need a bunch of
all female racing series because it's one of the best
(41:46):
assets about our racing is the fact that it is
gender neutral or there is no definition.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Right, is it the only sport that we can compete equally?
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Well, Equestrian is open and sailing is open, so.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Then something near every day talken to you.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
I pay a lot of attention, and I have friends
over there in the sailing world, and I have some
friends in the equestrian world, and I mean, I think
that you know that's what the Iron Dames Dever is
now supporting a questrian Sure, yeah, it's so it's one.
We aren't the only, but we're one of the few.
But it for you to get enough experience to be
at your best, it took me too damn long. I mean,
I had to didn't waste, but I ended up using
(42:22):
up so many valuable years doing this over year, and that,
I mean the whole decade of the eighties. If I
hadn't had Ford, I wouldn't have had the kind of
experience that I had. At the same time, it was
also limiting me. And if I was because I was
bold enough to do a midget race, I was bold
enough to still do the twenty four hours in something
else or to go to do Lamal. Ford didn't. Ford
(42:43):
didn't help me go to Lamal and so and going
to La Mall, going down before them alls on straight
helped me. When I got to Indy, I know how
I all of a sudden I knew what it was
like how to go over two twenty or two hund
three miles an hour. So I mean I was building
my tool box of experience on my own, but having
a base of having forward. But it took forever. Yeah,
(43:06):
I mean, it takes a long time. And so I
think these gals are benefiting. And I told Courtney Crone
that when who I was working with, you know, had
been working with for a number of years, I said,
I don't turn your nose down at something that will
provide you with an opportunity to get good experience. But
don't think that's going to blow the doors open and
everybody's going to come, no matter how successful you are.
(43:27):
I mean, look at Jamie. She won the w A
Series and the F one Academy and yet still had
to really work hard to put a deal together to
come over to do the Indie Lights. And then it
took her two season to the second season and to
really shine, you know, and even then it took her
a while towards the midle of the latter part of
the season to come into of her own. And my understanding,
(43:49):
it wasn't that she didn't feel she was strong enough
to do Indy. She knew she was going to. She
wasn't strong enough to do Indye Lights and develop the
ability to do that, but there was no sponsor ship.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
I mean, oh, I thought I thought she had the
money and wasn't. I thought she tested at Barber and
thought she was strong enough to do that.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
No, she she knew that she had to step up
a little bit more because Barbara is probably one of
the hardest trikes to run.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
As parbably it is, she went to the hardest, most
physical track to do it, I was thinking, I.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Mean she did, and I think the team felt it,
but there was no sponsorship.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
I hope that the next generation are on their way
because it would be nice to be able to pass
the baton over like you have and then still be
involved in some way, shape or form. If you were
looking at twenty year old Lynne coming into her first
ever car season, assuming you had the money and everything
(44:42):
sorted to go and do an entry level season, what
would your advice be to yourself back then, knowing what
you know now.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Part of her challenges, there's just so many different ways
to go pat it, so many all that kind of stuff. Yeah,
you know, I think I kind of would something that
Danica did. I would put my butt in about as
many different race cars as I could. In other words,
I would go and do a variety of cars, depending
on what sort of direction you think you want to go.
(45:13):
But I mean, I'm looking at the MX five Cup,
you know, there's so many great things that come out
of that. The racecraft and how to take care of
the car, and the drafting and huge fields and keeping
the car under you and not you know, I mean,
there's so many skills that come out of that. I mean,
I look at Connor's Illich's career right now as a
model for what somebody should, in a way be doing,
(45:33):
is not just attached yourself to one series or to
one form of racing. When I learned how I felt
at Talladega in that Thunderbird versus how I felt three
weeks later in that Indie car in Memphis, I still
and I tell race Cardarditt, you know, you know in
here what just feels right like this is what I want.
(45:57):
I have wrestled cars, I have you know, I've wrestled
bare feeling like I'm wrestling beers with race cars, and
did whatever I had to do to make something work.
And I'm not just talk about chassis set up or
car set up or and also the team. You got
to find your home. You got to find where your
hot buttons are hit. And the only way to do
(46:17):
that is if you're early on, is to try some
different things and then hone in and then find partners,
not just money, but find a team, a crew of people,
because right now the timing is perfect. Right now, the
timing they want to find successful women drivers. And no
offense to you, but the younger you are right now,
(46:38):
the more talent you bring and also develop your personality
to find out who that. Don't be too timid, don't
be too bold, but find out who you are and
bring that, bring that with you as an asset and
find a home, find a family or a home or
a team who goes, damn, we can build this together.
(47:00):
I had that with Dick Simon. I mean Dick Simon.
I can't tell you the difference that it made to
have a team owner who just said, we're going to
make this happen.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
I had that in Atlantics with Jim and Pan They
were fantastic.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
And build on that, you know, find it and then
build on it, and you may become the best at
something that's less than Into or less than cop or
less than the very top level. But if we need
more women winning, yes, even if it's winning it, I
mean like this Jade, who just want to see our
(47:32):
copp or whatever the hell that series is called.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
But yeah, I can't remember you lay that Laney abuse
that I introduced you to that I saw a race
here that I think has something special. She races in
the same championship, So maybe that championship is going to
produce some really good race card drivers.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
So win and win enough before you get ready to
go somewhere else and try to go somewhere else with
the people that got you where you were.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, that makes good sense. Well, then, thank you very
much for your insight, your stories, and your wisdom. I
could talk to you for another episode, and we may
well have to do that and get you back on
because I have so many more questions. I love you
heaps and I will see you very soon. Thank you again,
(48:19):
thanks for listening to Throttle Therapy. We'll be back next
week with more updates and more overtakes. We want to
hear from you. Leave us a review in Apple Podcasts
and tell us what you want to talk about. It
might just be the topic for our next show. Throttle
Therapy is hosted by Katherine Legg. Our executive producer is
Jesse Katz, and our supervising producer is Grace Fuse. Listen
(48:41):
to Throttle Therapy on America's number one podcast network, i Heeart,
Open your free iHeart app and search throttle Therapy with
Catherine Legg and start listening.
Throttle Therapy with Catherine Legg is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Hey you guys, Welcome to
(00:21):
Throttle Therapy with Me, Katherine Legg. I've obviously come off
a pretty rough first NASCAR weekend. It was a long
week and I've got a lot of work to do
for redemption and to come back. But I'm going to
take a few days with my very good friend Kara
(00:42):
Chris Dolin. She is the head engineer for Bridgestone Firestone
Racing in North America. We've been friends for a very
long time and we're going to go and let our
hair down and do some skiing this weekend, so that
will be a lot of fun. This week, we are
talking to the wonderful Lincent James. Lynna is a legend
(01:06):
who came up through the racing ranks a little bit
before me, when it was a little bit harder, and
she definitely was breaking barriers and glass ceilings and has
dedicated her life to the pursuit of women in motorsport
and she's become a very good friend of mine, a
sounding board and as I said before, an absolute legend. Hi,
(01:35):
Lindcent James, how are you he?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Hello, Well, Locut, thank you. I'm just glad to be
a part.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I've been watching these and I'm like, I wonder if
she'll ever reach out.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
To me and write, of course you're on the list.
Like pretty early on, I think it was who do
you want to go on the podcast? And I think
your name was like first or second after my dad.
So I want to actually start off before I get
you to tell everybody what you've achieved in your momentous career.
(02:04):
I want to start off with a little story about
how you and I met and then I will let
you take it from there. But from my perspective, I
reached out to you as a young race card driver
in England when you were doing a shootout for the
Indie Lights series back in the day. I think it
(02:24):
was like two thousand and four and you were doing
it with Catherine Nunn, Monan's wife. You were helping her
to run a team in Indie Lights and you wanted
to find the next female race card driver stuff. So
I read about this in England. I read about this,
and so I reached out to Lindsay James and I said, Hi,
my name's Catherine leg I'm the best girl race card
driver you'll ever see ever. Can I come and be
(02:47):
part of your shootout? Please? And I got an email
pack saying never heard of you? And I said, okay,
can I come and watch then? And I bought my
helmet and I got on a plane and I showed up.
I think that was in Phoenix. Was that not in Phoenix?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
That was in Texas?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
You're right, it was Texas, and I met you, and
I met Catherine, and I met the team, and I
did the shoot out and I won the won the event,
and then unfortunately the sponsorship didn't happen and it fell through.
But that's how I got to know about you and
your program of helping young female drivers, and then I
kind of became part of it. And after that the
rest is history. We became friends, and you've obviously been
(03:26):
somebody that I can go to for advice and help
and everything since. But I've known you for now over
twenty years.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Then absolutely, But I'm going to now tell the story.
You had a couple of them weeks, so they aren't
quite accurate. Of course, your memory and my memory are
just different, but you had it right until.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
My response was not that I know I was being funny.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
My response was that Catherine is making the decisions, Catherine
Nunn and not me. And I went to Catherine and
she said no, because you're coming all the way from
Mangeland and she, you know, I had a hard time
convincing her. She just wanted who's the best driver in
and she was just going to go with that. I said,
the best way is to do the shootout. And as
it turned out, we got a lot of publicity around
(04:09):
the shootout. And I said, well, i'll help you would
give you a list. You weren't on the list because
I didn't know you existed. You contacted me. I then
added that to the list and she said no, because
you're coming over from England and what if you don't
get a blah blah blah. When I saw the lineup,
I contacted you. I said, you get your butt over here.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, yeah you did.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
And I did get there and you did, and you did.
You showed up. You know they'd because it was a
multi day test, and you showed up and you did
win and it wasn't the sponsorship fell through? She just
pulled the plug.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Oh really, I heard that it was the money and
the money didn't come through.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, that may be it, but I think it was
not too long after that Boat shut his team down.
So I think you know that there was anyway. Maybe
it was sponsorship, but I was only and Catherine just
said I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So the other girl that was there said, go, she's
a woman.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Now.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Was Sarah McCune. I often think I wonder she was
the only other one. I think that was being considered
at the time. I wonder what happened to her? Have
you ever heard anything from her? Said?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Well, I haven't, you know. And there's so many like
that that came to my driver development program or it's
like Sarah McCune, and it's like, I have no idea.
In most cases, I have no idea what happened to them.
But you know, I think of her because I also
think like Kaylee Bryson and some of the other girls
that are doing midgets and sprint cars, you know that
that's there was a Sarah McCune, you know, and she
(05:33):
was kind of a contemporary with Sarah Fisher. But Sarah
Fisher was still not on the horizon yet.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So yeah, so I want to actually talk about the
driver development and like what that's changed into and what
you're doing now. But I, first of all, I was
at Daytona this year for when you were honored, and
there were things in that presentation that even I, being
a Lindcent James fan and a friend of yours for
(05:57):
a number of years, did not know. And so so
I wanted you to give our listeners the same experience
that I had during that presentation in a way, and
tell them all the incredible things, starting at the beginning,
how you got starts dem racing. You don't have to
go into great detail. You can do the cliff note version,
but I want them to know Lynn's epic, like you're
(06:19):
a badass like I had. I only knew about fifty
percent of it. Honestly, I know it's a tool order
and a big ass, But start from the beginning and
just give us a brief but expensive overview of everything
that you achieved.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Well, it's interesting because again I think people that are
IndyCar fans because Indy's so big, it's like, oh, they
know what I did at Indy, right, and then the
people that are sports car people, you know, imps of
people a sports car. The decade of the eighties was
really my ims A decade. So sometimes they don't overlap,
but it started in the seventies. We're just an SECA,
So I just started as an amateur, went to driver school,
(06:51):
got my competition license, started out in a Ford Pinto, moved
up to a Cosword Vega, and all I wanted to
do was the national champion. I mean to me, I
just wanted to be a national champion in SECA. Went
to the runoffs in a Cosworth Vega. Blew an engine,
had driven the car to the track, had no backup car,
don't I know nothing. I didn't have a you know,
engine builder or anybody that I was dead, you know, even.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Though I and you didn't come from money either.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
No no, no, no, no exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So you did it clawed from the from the ground up.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And I mean we had a
auto parts business and I sold shock absorbers, and we
had another consumer electronics business, and you know, we were
just two people trying to make a living. Who became
we were both car guys. Car you know. He took
me to the nty five hundred on my second date.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
And you know, it's that's a good that's a good
second that he did well.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Then yeah, so you know, then I went to the
twenty four Hours of Daytona as a spectator for the
first time after I moved to Florida to start the
business with him, and I had never seen sports car
racing or endurance racing or anything like that, and it totally, totally,
I mean, it just got hooked. And I went to Seabury,
became a member of SCCA, found out you had to
go to school to get a competition license, and that's
(08:05):
how it all started on my own dollars. And then
a couple of things happened. I mean, I do believe
someone in you know, there's tipping points, there's destiny whatever
you want, and then there's you work hard to get
into your destiny. But I saw an article and Car
and Driver magazine that was about a Ford product. But
there was a sidebar article and it was entitled Ford
(08:26):
and Feminism and it said for this was in nineteen
seventy eight, and how Ford Motor Company wanted to create
support and create opportunities for women in non traditional areas
within the company, and so I figured that they needed
me because I could demonstrate that that commitment was alive
out to the public, you know. So I wrote them
letters that I wrote them letters for three years trying
(08:48):
to get a meeting, and I did get a meeting,
but not until nineteen eighty. But in nineteen seventy eight
I also got a deal. Was contacted the only time
I've been contacted by a team owner or a car
owner when Rhade Atlanta was bought by the Whittingtons. I mean,
this is kind of good trivia stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
This is this is stuff I didn't know either. Yeah,
where is the deal?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
When they bought that track, there was this old Plymouth
Malare in one of the garages or shops, and this
guy in in Oklahoma, brand dole knew about it. He
bought the car. He contacted MS talked to John Bishop
and asked if there's a woman driver because Kelly's Services
(09:35):
had just decided to sponsor a new series called the
Kelly American Challenge and John Bishop. I was told this
by John Bishop, gave him my name, gave him my number,
and said she's the best one. She drives like a man.
And he and it was meant to be a compliment, really,
(09:59):
so I raised that season. It cost three thousand dollars.
I had to buy the ride for three thousand dollars,
so I had to borrow. My husband wouldn't give it
to me. I had to borrow three thousand dollars from
a friend. And then because I finished second seventy nine
hundreds of a second behind Jane Felton and was the
top female driver, I won like thirty five hundred dollars,
(10:21):
so I could pay this thought three thousand dollars back
to the guy that the film, and I had a
whole lop at five hundred.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Dollars, So you didn't share it with your husband, saying
he was too tired.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I's pretty mad at him at that point. So I
ran that whole season on that same kind of a deal.
Then they had a bonus prize money at the end
of the year. He got all that, the owner got
all the prize money, and I was so excited that
maybe the next year I would be able to go
for the whole championships overall. And that's what he told me.
I mean, I'm going to tell you this, you know
what he told me. I'm gonna forget this. It was
(10:53):
the finale that the finale used to be an oop
at Daytona, like around Thanksgiving weekend, A meeting with this
car owner. And I'm excited because I was in People magazine.
I could go into that because I raced over at
the durber Ring and had won the race and he
was in the picture, and so I figured, I made
this guy a hero, right. And I am sitting with
(11:14):
him ready to have a meeting to negotiate the fact
that I'm going to run the next season. And he said,
I'm not running next year. I said, what do you mean,
You're not running next year? My wife thinks we're having
an affair. Oh Jesus, And that's what he told me.
I looked at him like, you have got to be
kidding me. And so I had no deal the next year.
(11:35):
So that's what I and I was already talking to Ford,
and I finally got a meeting with Ford. And I
ran races. I ran one Offs, I ran seaver Ring,
I ran Daytona. I ran in an acid Martin Nimrod.
I mean, I just did whatever I could do to
get in a race car. I mean, I remember showing
up the test in the first of the year at Daytona,
which is now called the Roar. It used to just
(11:57):
be an open test. I showed up because I lived
in Florida. I'd show up with my helmet and suit
and everything. And Jim Bell was at the party that
you're talking about on October thirtieth. I invited him because
he was there running the Whittington's in A nine thirty
five and they were testing before the twenty four and
I walked up to him and introduced myself and I said,
(12:21):
you know, I'm really looking for a ride. I don't
know what the hell I said. Jim came up to
me maybe two or three hours later, and he said, hey,
to bring your gear. I said, I sure did. He said, oh,
Bill Whittington wants to borrow it. I was like, I mean,
my face went from being excited to them being and
then he looked at me and he laughed and he said,
(12:42):
I'm only kidding. Gear up, Bill Done Whittington is going
to leave, and he said you could serve some laps.
I got to turn it lapse at a nine thirty
five at that test.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
And I remember when I sat in that car. I mean,
I the most powerful thing I'd ever raised was a Corvette.
And I sat in this nine thirty five and I
just remember two things. One, I sat there after I
got all hit, you know, I got all suited up.
I'm sitting in the car and now I'm not moving.
Jim puts the door down, closes the door, and I'm
looking for the starter button. And he opens the door
(13:13):
and he goes, what are you waiting for? I said,
I don't know how to start it. He said, turn
the key. Porsches have it the key, yeah, like, rather
than a starter button. Because it was basically a street
car that day turned into a race car that I
think nine thirty fives. And then he looked at me
and he said, I'm going to just give you one
piece of advice. Either you drive it or it's going
to drive you. Good advice because that that turbo comes
(13:36):
on and you've got so much power and you don't
feel it until it comes on. Because of that ride,
I got to race a nine thirty five at the
twelve hours of seabreing that year. So I mean, you
just scrape and dig I said, you always be at
the track, always have your gear, Always talk to people,
always let people know who you are, what you've done,
(13:58):
and how how much you want to do it.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
You know, show them you're just why am I still
doing that? Then?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Because you have Catherine? I mean, I think unless you've
got an agent or somebody that's out there doing it
for you. And there's a couple of the gals today
I know that do that. I mean, they have somebody
representing them, and that representative hopefully has a good relationship
and a good reputation and talks to the kerchiefs or
team managers, and so I didn't have that back then.
(14:29):
But the reality is there are so many more race
car drivers than there are seats available. I don't care
what series you're telling about. And the higher you go,
the harder that is, the more drivers there are in
those than they're exactly. So somebody's got to be speaking
up there, letting them know what you can do. So
I spent the decade of the eighties racing for Ford.
(14:51):
I wanted to share some of those only because I
just didn't even think about it. They just came out
of how they happened, And you know Ford, I bugged
them for three years for sponsorship. I finally got it.
I ran the Kelly Series, and then and then I
raced whatever Ford told me to race. I mean, the
good news is I got in the door. I had to.
I negotiated my own deals. I had one year contracts,
(15:13):
but I always wanted to do the endurance races, and
sometimes that didn't include the endurance races. You know, So
I just I just I just raced whatever the hell
I could race. I mean, it really was. They had
me drive an off road pickup truck.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Is they at least pay you good money?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Well, they didn't pay me. The only time I got
money when I ran my own car the first year.
But I realized was that, hey, I'm not a good
team owner or team manager. I can't do this. I
can't wear both hats. So I went back and renegotiated
during that year for a personal service contract. So I
(15:50):
had a racing contract and I had a personal service contract.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Smart lady.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
The racing contract, that money went to the team. I
didn't get it right. Yeah, the personal service contract, and
I went from making I had to guarantee fifty appearances
a year, which is a lot.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Besides, that's a lot.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
But I needed to make some money, you know, even
though I had my own business, and whatever money I
was making, I was also using it to get these
other rides when Ford.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Was and to get yourself there and accommodation and everything else.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I'm guessing yeah, yeah, And I'm very proud of the
fact that how much I was making for the first
couple of years per a day for appearance based on
because I had fifteen years of one year contracts and
every year I've negotiated.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
And made a little bit more money.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I was building value, you know, because of I mean
it was a win win. They were winning because of
the success I was having on the racetrack. I was
winning because of the success I was having, and because
I was involved with Ford Motor Company and I was
actually starting to make a little more money, and so
you know, all of the pieces kind of went up
the records at Talladega that I did. I convinced Ford
(17:01):
that we needed to do that. I pitched Ford to
do that. The first time. It was in the Ford
Probe because I wanted to race the Ford Probe and
I was racing the Mustangs, and the head of Ford
Racing was this German by the name of Michael Crnifice
who a didn't want me on the team, but had
(17:22):
to because of the Ford sponsorship. I came with the
Ford sponsorship. B didn't think that I, I mean, he
didn't want a woman on the team, and he didn't
think I was good enough. And I wanted to drive
the big car. I wanted to drive the big car.
I wanted to drive the Ford Probe. So I thought, well,
if I can take that car around Talladega and go
at two hundred and twenty or two and thirty miles
(17:42):
an hour, then I'm going to convince him that I
can drive that race car. And so I did. I
didn't go that fast on and went to a four.
But and the next season I got to race the Probe.
And then I saw Ford was directing more and more
towards a DASCAR. So I decided maybe I should try
to convince them that I should go NASCAR racing. Because
(18:06):
what's different between a NASCAR and a big Ford Bustang
gt O car. You know so many things I didn't
know that I learned. So I convinced them to take
the Ford Thunderbird, which was a brand new supercoop body
that they were coming out for their production car. And
I went to Talladega to break the records that I'd
(18:28):
already set and break my own records, and a bunch
of more. I convinced Bill Elliott and his team to
build the car and we went and successfully went to
twelve average speed. But Catherine, I hated that car. Why
hated it? It was numb.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Feedback.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
This is in nineteen eighty eight, so they were a
lot different than they are now. I turned the wheel
and nothing happens, And I mean it was numb. It's
the best way I could put it. And I spent
two days and I couldn't wait till it was over.
Three weeks later, I got an opportunity to drive an
IndyCar for the first time, and I made up my
(19:07):
mind in October of nineteen eighty eight, if I'm going
to climb this mountain, it's going to be that mountain
and not trying to get into stock cars.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Not a numb race car either. Like at least you
get feedback from that one.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Oh yeah, you know, for I mean lots of feedback obviously.
I mean the first time, the first time in the IndyCar,
it was at Memphis. It was which is a drag
strip that they do a lot of testing at the
very first lab, I go around and I come down
the front straight away, and I thought, okay, I go
really fast down the front straight away because I you know,
and then I put my foot on the brake to
go through turn one and I'm not used to having
brakes that work like that. The car literally stopped on
(19:41):
the racetrack. I had to put it in first scare
to drive down to the corner.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Was like, oh my god, I'm so you'd never driven
anything with downforce before that moment.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I drive in an open wheel car twice before. I
raced in the June Sprints in a Formula Ford in
like nineteen eighty two, and I had raced here at
Phoenix in a like what would be equal to a
formul Atlantic car in a support race when they had
the Formula one race downtown Phoenix. Those are the only
(20:13):
two times I'd ever been in an open wheal car.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Wow, did you want to do Formula one if you
were in the support race? Did do you ever have
the never?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
No? You know, they used to because Jackie Stewart was
also a Ford spokesperson, so they would, you know, always had,
and Ford for a while actually owned a Formula One team,
And I mean I looked at that and went, that's
way over my I mean, that's so complicated, and now
it's even more complicated. And I also knew, you know,
all my goals were doable for me. Everything I did
(20:41):
that I set as a goal. I thought, it's because
I know I can do it, and I think I
can convince others. Formula one, I knew there was no way.
Why I try to chase something that you just know
there's absolutely no way.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Yeah, I think it has to be achievable. I think though,
had you found racing as a kid and done go
coating and done everything like that, I think it would
have been achievable. It was just the circumstance that you
came into it. But I mean, what a career. It
reminds me a little bit of mine in a way
in that you race anything and everything that you got
(21:13):
the opportunity to race. And if you look at the
long list, like I did when we were at that
thing at Daytona in the museum there, it was so cool. Honestly,
like it still gives me goosebumps to think about that,
because like when you see how much you jumped around
from different cars and what you achieved and like just
the tenacity and the and the grit and everything. I mean,
(21:38):
it's honestly, it's inspirational because you don't really meet many
people like us, right, Like it's I think we're definitely
a different breed and for me to be able to
see it in you, it gives me some power back too,
you know, like it's it's been. It's been a wild ride,
and I know that we did things very differently in
a way, but it's really neat to see that there
(22:02):
are so many different parallels too.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, I mean I think I've told people, I mean,
a you have more natural talent than I do. I mean,
I absolutely watching the way you stepped in that test,
you know that would have been then called indie lights
and see you and see you run. I've watched you
a lot run in sports cars in Daytona and all that,
and I just you have a lot of natural ability
(22:26):
and you're willing to work hard. I mean that's that's
a lot of times people that have a lot of
natural ability are lazy. You know that it comes easy
to them and they don't work very hard. So and
you know the passion that you have, I feel we
have that very much in common and also just the
stick to itiveness, not to be, not to give up,
you know, doesn't mean we don't get disappointed or discouraged
(22:49):
or you know, there's times I've been, oh my god,
there's so many times that I've either wanted to kill
somebody or or quit, you know, because I figured there's
no way. But I never that didn't around for very long,
and you know I wouldn't be. I just nobody was
going to deny me.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
I feel like I said, a blood But what would
you do if you did, if you weren't racing?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
You know, it's funny. I met Burku and I don't
know how to pronounce your last thing. But she's from
Turkey and she's the new head of the FA Woman
and Motorsports Commission. Lovely lady. She came over for our
summit in Indianapolis and December, and she's she's probably in
her forties, I think, you know, I mean, sheik's great though,
Yeah she does, but she's not like really young, you
(23:28):
know what I mean. She's not just twenty or thirty
years old or whatever. But so we kind of related
in a different way. But I remember her saying, so
what do you do? What do you mean what do
I do? Like, well, what do you do for fun?
I'm like, I don't have any nothing. I mean, I paint.
I've tried to paint, so I have painted a little bit,
(23:49):
but I look for other opportunities. I mean that at
that time, I was still vintage racing. I mean I was,
you know, I was planning to continue vintage racing until
I had that back crash in nineteen. So or I'm
at the races, staying current, learning I'm reading about it,
I'm going to race, and still I go to races
because that's the only way I can stay current. And
the fact that there are so many more young gals
(24:10):
racing now, I want to be able to watch them
race because if I don't see them race, and I
don't have this opportunity to see them, like this, anything
I read is almost irrelevant.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, it's not accurate.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
I've got to feel that energy. I have to see
that passion and I have to see some damn talent
in the car. So I am an observer or participant,
a fan, and I try to continue to be an
expert and to be able to be a mentor. To
do that, you have to stay current, do you.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Like cause as much as you like racing, or is
it more racing, because I remember seeing something with Anika
that said she was like, I have no interesting cause
really to well, I just love racing as a sport,
and I feel like I can relate to I love
cars too, but not to the extent that I love racing.
I think it's the sport that I fell in love
with rather than the cause.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I'm kind of curious about cars, and I know what
I like and what I don't like that I'm not
a car nut. The other thing is, it isn't even
just the racing. It's the driving something at the limit,
finding the limit, and then being able to do it.
I like testing more than I like racing. The only
reason why the racing spun is because that's what you're
(25:33):
really You're pitted against, you know where the hell you stand,
But testing you also know where you stand, you know
what a good time is there, you know you know.
But I love the testing because I love trying to
find that perfect flap, that perfect corner, you know, every time.
I mean, that's what excites me is that, Yeah, the sound,
(25:53):
the smell, being at the track and then looking for
that apex for every corner and feeling the car, feeling
how it changes, you know, how the tires change and
how the weight balance changes. And it's like, but I
drove that Indy car at Memphis. I was so pleased.
Dick said to the guy that was working on the car,
put ten gallons of fuel, bring her in, Let her
(26:15):
do ten laps, ten gallons of He wanted to keep
that the weight of the car balanced and the same
almost for the entire time because those weight changes really
make a difference, you know. So I just because I
didn't know what the hell I was doing at that point.
So anyway, I love the driving the race car. I'm
a good time driver. I'm a real good test driver
(26:35):
because I was told that by some tire engineers because
if they want, if they're going to change tires, they
don't want you to adapt. They want you to still
drive the way you go.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
And it's not that easy to get the perfect that.
Like you can chase the perfect that forever and ever
because the conditions are always changing and the tires are
always changing. You're always changing. It's cause getting light to
when it bends off fuel. And so yeah, I don't
think that anybody any where ever has ever got the
perfect lap? And you know what, you see the self
(27:06):
driving cars these days that are supposed to be able
to be programmed to do like the edge of the
grip if you like. I think maybe one day that
will take over from us. But I think that that's
what makes us for interesting, Like, well, I have something
that can go at the ultimate limit without making mistakes.
It's the mistakes and it's the learning and everything that
makes it interesting. But I love the competition too, like
the competition with yourself as much as with everybody else, right,
(27:28):
because mentally you're competing with yourself to be as good
as you can be. And then yeah, no hitting those marks,
making as few mistakes as possible, driving on the limit,
all of it. But yeah, I love it too, and
it's a passion. And I don't know what I will
do when I stop racing because I love it so much.
But I almost think that I want to follow in
your footsteps and help other young female drivers too. So
(27:52):
I'm just following you all the way up through. I'm
just being a mini a mini you.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
I originated here from FedEx. Yeah you were saying that,
so I mean, if you ever want a brainstarve about that,
my dear, I'm happy to do that. Yeah, I mean,
I think your passion can carry on past your time
in the race car.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Explain to us how you started your program, because I
didn't go through it in its entirety. I was lucky
enough to be part of it at times. But explain
why you started it. Explain what it was and some
of the people who came through it.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
For those of us listening, Well, I started in the
nineteen ninety four, so two years after I did Indy.
But I was still doing Indy.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Okay, you were still driving at the time you started it. Yeah,
that's interesting because I was thinking to myself, I'll wait
until the transition point so i can focus because I've
got like OCD where I want to put everything in
its neat and tidy box. But you were doing both
at the same time, which is crazy and awesome.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
But remember I was doing Indy only, so I mean
I only did I did fifteen IndyCar races over nine years.
The only year I had more than Indy was ninety
three and I had six races. So when I was
back to just one, I mean, to be honest, I
had to put it this way. It was like, oh,
I'm going to do the rest of the year. I
wanted to do more, and I was trying to get
(29:10):
sponsors to do more, but ultimately, you know, I only
had an India only program. And you know, after hanging
out with Billy Jim King for those years that I
went to the Women's Sports Foundation, I realized I have
to find a way to give back, a way to
make a difference. And then I got so much fan mail.
A lot of them were young drivers wanting advice. I'm like,
I don't know who these people are. I don't know
(29:31):
if they're any good. And I was also being interviewed
a lot saying that there were more coming and they're like, well,
then where are they. I'm like, I don't know. I
got to find them. So my deal was an invitation only,
and I literally would. I would scour National speed Sport
(29:52):
News every week and look at all the race results
and look for stories about a woman driver looking for
it and I only had usually the first initial in
the last names, you know. I mean, it was really
hard sometimes, and this was before we had the Internet
and you know, Google and all of that. But I
literally would and I started contacting sanctioning bodies, asking for
(30:13):
who do you know? Is there anybody any good that's
running at your track? So I created a program once
a year. I would only do it once a year.
I would max out at twenty people because I could
never remember more than twenty names over the course of
a weekend. I don't want to keep looking at name tags.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
And I had a vision, Catherine, of everything that it
took me so long to learn. And I thought, if
I can compress the learning time that these gals that
are out there racing and give them the tools that
in my mind they were like, go now they should go,
because now they shouldn't be held back by these things
(30:50):
that we don't know, because you don't know what you
don't know, you know, doctor Jacques de Laire, because I'd gone,
you know, with them, I'd worked with them since nineteen
eighty eight, and truly was.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
By the way, Yes, I saw him at Seabring. Still yeah,
it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
But if I hadn't met he and his partner at
that time, doctor Don Marsi, who has since passed away
from a heart attack, if I hadn't met the two
of them in nineteen eighty eight, that changed. My physical
fitness changed, my mental preparation changed by how I think,
how it changed everything about me. It took a while.
I was a hard one to convince, Oh, no, are
(31:25):
you really I can tell you in ninety two at Indy,
I would have not been able to do what I
did in ninety two at Indy had it not been
for doctor Shock. The training and I could go on
and on. I could do a whole session anyway. So
I asked doctor Je we.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Should, by the way, we should point out to the
business that Jacques de Laire is a mental coach, if
so they know who he is.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
He's actually a sports physiologist. His training is in the
physical part. But his partner with psychologists. There was the
brain guy in the body guy. But when when the
brain guy died, he had so much information from them
that he was able to borf and really develop that expertise.
But he is available. It's called human performance. Now. I
think performance, I mean because I think every race car
(32:11):
driver should have somebody good to help them train their brain,
because we are our worst enemies most of the time.
And then I had the whole We went to a
gym and I was it was in Indianapolis, where I
went and met with people at the gym and I
explained to them the stuff that we had to test.
Cardiovascular strength, flexibility, grip strength. We had a grip strength
(32:34):
so we had a whole training, physical training. They'd go
through this whole exercise with doctor Jack. On the mental
part of it, I hired a camera crew. They had
to be interviewed so that they could learn about media training.
And then every night at dinner, I had a nutritionist
prepare all the meals and so that they could learn
what they're supposed to eat, whether on the road or whatever.
(32:55):
Every night at dinner, I would pull a name out
of a hat and they did know who they were
who was going to get pulled that night, and they
had to get up and get a speech. Because as
a race car driver, when you're invited to go to
dinner and then say, oh tell it, tell the table,
you know, I mean, and most people aren't really good
at that, you know, and so.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Nope, oh that's scared of it.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
I mean I was, yeah, No, I mean I used
to used to break out in a rash if I
had to talk more than three people. So there was
media training, there was nutritional training. There was the physical
training there was, and then we went to the racetrack
and I had go carts. Everybody started in go carts
because I had to see could they really were they
really able to be a race car driver? And if
they passed the go kart test, then different years I
(33:39):
would have different cars. I mean when I was out here,
I did it at Bob Vodrat and so then we'd
have openmal cars and then we'd have closed wheel cars,
and you know, so there was on track. There was
one day of on track programming. So with four days,
I required one family member or one responsible person that's
in their life a test and with them. So this
(34:01):
wasn't like where you drop the kids off and then
go off somewhere because I wanted the parents because in
most cases kids were still living at home. I wanted
the parents to hear everything that we told them. So
I did that. I had over two hundred and thirty
drivers from thirty states in six countries. So we did
it at Daytona, we did it at Charlotte, we did
(34:21):
it at Indianapolis, and we did it in Phoenix. Over
that twenty plus years, and I could count on one
hand out of that two hundred and thirty of who
were really good.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Okay, who's the one that didn't make it that was
really good and should have made it?
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Oh my god. Her first name is Alison. She was
really good, and I was so pissed off because I
mean she just sort of she did some racing after that,
and then she dropped off the radar, and I was
asking somebody, I forget who, it's a long time ago,
what happened to Alison? She got married, and she got
(34:58):
married like a subcrew chief guy that works in NASCAR.
So she was really good, and I was disappointed. But
I mean Danica, Sarah, Milanie Troxel, actually Erica Anders came
through the program, Aaron Crocker. I was trying to think, well,
for sure, Aaron was really good.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
I mean, yeah, I'm surprised she didn't do more. I
thought she was going to be the one, honestly, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
And she could have been, but you know what happened there.
So I finally forgiven Ray. I wasn't for the longest time.
I was.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
It worked out for them in the end, exactly.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Just I was just with them and Kate, you know.
So yeah, I mean there is a certain I mean
Shay Holbrook was also an outstanding And the part of
it was they were really good, and then they also
took what we were telling them and at least started
to incorporate it into their program. I mean things like
writing thank you notes for the people that help you,
you know, the returning phone calls. Of course now it's
(35:53):
emails and everything. But I mean I had like Linda
Kanti came in and would talk about finances, talk about
how to manage your fine, what are you going to
do if you actually get sponsorship. I had John Bickford,
which is Jeff Gordon's Oh Sarah. He recommended Sarah Fisher
to come. He actually paid for Sarah. I charged five
hundred dollars, by the way, five hundred dollars for four days.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
That's really good.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
And that's what I did through my foundation. I raised
money to help because I had to pay for all
of the resources that we had, you know, But I
just the way I looked at it is that it
was mostly the off track tools that you need to
be successful, because if you're running sprint cars or you're
running drag racinger, you know, every one of those. The
on track part is different, but the off track part
(36:38):
is the same to sort of clarify women in motorsports
in North America is about all disciplines of racing, for
all careers, for women in all careers in racing.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Which is important, very important. Racing is not just about
us as drivers, even though we're inherently selfish. I think
it is about the engineers and the mechanics, and the teams,
and the and the sponsors and like this, so many
other aspects.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, because that will help generate more support for the
women drivers, because now they'll see that this is actually,
you know, women can be successful in this industry. That
it will kind of help break some you know down.
But I also have not I have not given up
on women race car drivers. So I mean there's still
me who is passionate about wanting to figure out what
(37:24):
you just said, how can we get more women winning?
I mean that's I want to see that desperately, and
that I'm not expecting women in motorsports North America to
be that solution necessarily, you know. I just sometimes I
want to defend the fact that I want a women
to win.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
I don't think you need to defend it. I think
I want it to And maybe here and then the
future you and I can. It's start something that helps
that to happen in some way shape to be continued TVC.
(38:03):
Why do you think there's been this gap behind my
generation than the Danikas and the Simonas and the Anni
Beatrices and the me and then you look at like
I thought Jamie did a great job last year, but
then Jamie said it was too physical for her and
went back and did sports cars, which was disappointing honestly,
because I thought maybe we had somebody coming in. But
(38:25):
now there seems to be this big gap and this
big hole, and there's nobody winning in the lower formula
like we did at the time. Why do you think
that that is? Do you think it's just cyclical or
do you think there's a reason for it.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Well, there's more numbers now. At least, there are more
females racing now than I think there were for the
any of the decades before, and they are actually more
of them are capable of being good. I don't really know.
I have some theories. First of all, I shouldn't say.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
This, but do you can know anyway, I somehow think
the women when they don't succeed and if they have,
and one of the biggest words that can get us
in trouble is that word expectation.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
So I think Danica set the bar that everybody felt
that they could do what Danica did, you know? And
when that didn't happen, whatever level they were racing at,
I think they get discouraged sooner and easier because they
also they look at the world and say, you know,
there's other things I can do. They see options. The
(39:29):
majority of the guys that race they can't do anything else.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, well I can't do anything else.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
They don't have a plan B. But they don't have
a plan B. Yeah, I think a lot of the
gals and if they've done it for seven or eight years,
and the other is that they're doing it out of
their parents' pocket. I mean they're still doing it out
of their parents' pocket. And so if the money doesn't
show up from and they expect again that word expectation,
because they have accomplished something better than let's say average
(39:59):
on their parents or friends' money, they don't understand that
that isn't enough to get to that next level.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
What do you make of this all female one? Make
series with that runs with that one? The Academy or
what was the W Series? What are your thoughts on it?
Have we ever discussed that? No?
Speaker 2 (40:19):
I don't think we are.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
I didn't think we have.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
I mean, when the W Series was announced, I was
on the fence but also pretty much against it, but
was careful, you know, I needed to learn more because
it was, let's face that it hadn't been done yet,
and they hadn't when they announced it. We didn't see
what it was really going to be like, right, And
then I got to over to Ostrica and was part
of the original selection process. I watched them go fifty
(40:43):
drivers go through that test, the initial test, and realized
that it actually was The intentions were really to provide
a quality on track experience at the level that we're
talking about, which is not really entry level, but it's
let's just say it's the lower of the level. I mean,
it's after you get past the entry level of whatever
it is you're doing. Now you're on that bottom wrong
(41:05):
of the ladder to that next step up. So I
think that having a series that commits to good race cars,
good crews working on the race cars, if it is
all females, it's it's creating an opportunity for them to
race that they probably wouldn't have any quality program. Plus
they usually they did at the W Series, and I
(41:26):
know they're doing it at F one Academy. Is they
are providing the off track training that we're talking about.
They have to do media training, they've got fitness. They
really bring in all of the elements, so it's a
quality experience. I don't believe we need a bunch of
all female racing series because it's one of the best
(41:46):
assets about our racing is the fact that it is
gender neutral or there is no definition.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Right, is it the only sport that we can compete equally?
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Well, Equestrian is open and sailing is open, so.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Then something near every day talken to you.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
I pay a lot of attention, and I have friends
over there in the sailing world, and I have some
friends in the equestrian world, and I mean, I think
that you know that's what the Iron Dames Dever is
now supporting a questrian Sure, yeah, it's so it's one.
We aren't the only, but we're one of the few.
But it for you to get enough experience to be
at your best, it took me too damn long. I mean,
I had to didn't waste, but I ended up using
(42:22):
up so many valuable years doing this over year, and that,
I mean the whole decade of the eighties. If I
hadn't had Ford, I wouldn't have had the kind of
experience that I had. At the same time, it was
also limiting me. And if I was because I was
bold enough to do a midget race, I was bold
enough to still do the twenty four hours in something
else or to go to do Lamal. Ford didn't. Ford
(42:43):
didn't help me go to Lamal and so and going
to La Mall, going down before them alls on straight
helped me. When I got to Indy, I know how
I all of a sudden I knew what it was
like how to go over two twenty or two hund
three miles an hour. So I mean I was building
my tool box of experience on my own, but having
a base of having forward. But it took forever. Yeah,
(43:06):
I mean, it takes a long time. And so I
think these gals are benefiting. And I told Courtney Crone
that when who I was working with, you know, had
been working with for a number of years, I said,
I don't turn your nose down at something that will
provide you with an opportunity to get good experience. But
don't think that's going to blow the doors open and
everybody's going to come, no matter how successful you are.
(43:27):
I mean, look at Jamie. She won the w A
Series and the F one Academy and yet still had
to really work hard to put a deal together to
come over to do the Indie Lights. And then it
took her two season to the second season and to
really shine, you know, and even then it took her
a while towards the midle of the latter part of
the season to come into of her own. And my understanding,
(43:49):
it wasn't that she didn't feel she was strong enough
to do Indy. She knew she was going to. She
wasn't strong enough to do Indye Lights and develop the
ability to do that, but there was no sponsor ship.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
I mean, oh, I thought I thought she had the
money and wasn't. I thought she tested at Barber and
thought she was strong enough to do that.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
No, she she knew that she had to step up
a little bit more because Barbara is probably one of
the hardest trikes to run.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
As parbably it is, she went to the hardest, most
physical track to do it, I was thinking, I.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Mean she did, and I think the team felt it,
but there was no sponsorship.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
I hope that the next generation are on their way
because it would be nice to be able to pass
the baton over like you have and then still be
involved in some way, shape or form. If you were
looking at twenty year old Lynne coming into her first
ever car season, assuming you had the money and everything
(44:42):
sorted to go and do an entry level season, what
would your advice be to yourself back then, knowing what
you know now.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Part of her challenges, there's just so many different ways
to go pat it, so many all that kind of stuff. Yeah,
you know, I think I kind of would something that
Danica did. I would put my butt in about as
many different race cars as I could. In other words,
I would go and do a variety of cars, depending
on what sort of direction you think you want to go.
(45:13):
But I mean, I'm looking at the MX five Cup,
you know, there's so many great things that come out
of that. The racecraft and how to take care of
the car, and the drafting and huge fields and keeping
the car under you and not you know, I mean,
there's so many skills that come out of that. I mean,
I look at Connor's Illich's career right now as a
model for what somebody should, in a way be doing,
(45:33):
is not just attached yourself to one series or to
one form of racing. When I learned how I felt
at Talladega in that Thunderbird versus how I felt three
weeks later in that Indie car in Memphis, I still
and I tell race Cardarditt, you know, you know in
here what just feels right like this is what I want.
(45:57):
I have wrestled cars, I have you know, I've wrestled
bare feeling like I'm wrestling beers with race cars, and
did whatever I had to do to make something work.
And I'm not just talk about chassis set up or
car set up or and also the team. You got
to find your home. You got to find where your
hot buttons are hit. And the only way to do
(46:17):
that is if you're early on, is to try some
different things and then hone in and then find partners,
not just money, but find a team, a crew of people,
because right now the timing is perfect. Right now, the
timing they want to find successful women drivers. And no
offense to you, but the younger you are right now,
(46:38):
the more talent you bring and also develop your personality
to find out who that. Don't be too timid, don't
be too bold, but find out who you are and
bring that, bring that with you as an asset and
find a home, find a family or a home or
a team who goes, damn, we can build this together.
(47:00):
I had that with Dick Simon. I mean Dick Simon.
I can't tell you the difference that it made to
have a team owner who just said, we're going to
make this happen.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
I had that in Atlantics with Jim and Pan They
were fantastic.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
And build on that, you know, find it and then
build on it, and you may become the best at
something that's less than Into or less than cop or
less than the very top level. But if we need
more women winning, yes, even if it's winning it, I
mean like this Jade, who just want to see our
(47:32):
copp or whatever the hell that series is called.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
But yeah, I can't remember you lay that Laney abuse
that I introduced you to that I saw a race
here that I think has something special. She races in
the same championship, So maybe that championship is going to
produce some really good race card drivers.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
So win and win enough before you get ready to
go somewhere else and try to go somewhere else with
the people that got you where you were.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, that makes good sense. Well, then, thank you very
much for your insight, your stories, and your wisdom. I
could talk to you for another episode, and we may
well have to do that and get you back on
because I have so many more questions. I love you
heaps and I will see you very soon. Thank you again,
(48:19):
thanks for listening to Throttle Therapy. We'll be back next
week with more updates and more overtakes. We want to
hear from you. Leave us a review in Apple Podcasts
and tell us what you want to talk about. It
might just be the topic for our next show. Throttle
Therapy is hosted by Katherine Legg. Our executive producer is
Jesse Katz, and our supervising producer is Grace Fuse. Listen
(48:41):
to Throttle Therapy on America's number one podcast network, i Heeart,
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