November 25, 2025 • 53 mins
On this episode of Throttle Therapy, Katherine Legge is joined by former professional racer and expert in driver development Josh Wise, to discuss how he transitioned from sprint car racing to supporting drivers through the physical and psychological demands of racing at Wise Optimization. They cover the challenges faced by female drivers, the application of sim racing, and the psychological barriers to achieving top-level performance.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Throttle Therapy with Catherine Legg is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to this
(00:22):
week's episode of Throttle Therapy with Me Catherine. And this
week I am honored to be joined by a relatively
new friend and somebody who I have to admit I
didn't know all that much about until this year, whose
thought process has challenged me and who I'm enamored with
in the way that the kind of thinking that he
(00:45):
does is another level like I thought, I put a
lot of thinking into racing and the psychology of racing
until I met him. And his name is Josh Weiss. Josh,
Welcome to the pod.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Ah, thank you, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Thanks for coming on. I think that the listeners are
going to be fascinated by you, because I am, because
I know that we've kind of gone backwards and forwards
on some sporting psychology stuff and we have a slight
difference of opinion on whether you're born with any level
of natural ability or not. But we'll get into that
(01:21):
first of all. I want to know how Josh Wise
got into racing, like you were, how old you were
in school? Your dad? Who? Why? What were one?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah? My grandfather owned some race cars in southern California
in the sixties and seventies and they raced at ascot
Or Sports Park, and so my dad, I think it
had grown up, you know, immersed in that and so
by the time I came around, they weren't doing that anymore.
But my family was, you know, a racing family in
(01:54):
a sense that we would go to sprint car races
and we were watching races on TV. And just from
the youngest age, I remember just thinking I want to
drive a race car. So my dad got me a
quarter midget when I was six years old and started
racing quarter midgets until I was about fourteen in southern
(02:15):
California and made my way through kind of an open wheel,
you know, oval sprint car type path. Just loved doing it.
Didn't necessarily think that I would ever move to a
level of being a professional in the sport. Although I
dreamt of it, I didn't see it as a reality.
My parents were were of average means, you know. My
(02:38):
dad was a truck drove out semi truck and my
mom was an administrative assistant and we just kind of
scraped buy and raced as much as we could and
we did well, but did never see it as I
was going to be a professional.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
You don't sound like you're from southern California to me,
and I know you do a lot of work with
Scott Speed, and so to me, Scott is like the
epit to me of southern California, and I always forget
that you're from there because you don't have the accent.
Did you move here relatively young?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Twenty years ago? I moved to Charlotte, So yeah, that
open wheel journey took me to Indianapolis for a few years.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Oh, that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
That was where I guess I had an opportunity in
racing and where it became a bit of a real thing.
Was I had won some big sprint car and midget races. No,
it would have been two thousand and three. But I
was sitting on my couch one day and I got
a phone call and it was an unknown number and
it was Tony Stewart and he was starting a sprint
car and midget team in Indianapolis and asked me if
(03:37):
I wanted to come drive for him, and so that
was when the kind of light bulb came on of well,
I might be able to actually make a living for
some period of time doing this, and then that journey
brought me to Charlotte eventually.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
That's so cool. So when you were grown up racing
sprint cousin stuff, was your granddad and your dad like
your heroes and racing or did you have somebody else
like Jeff Gordon that you wanted to be like, or
did you want to do IndyCar? Did you have hopes
and dreams and aspirations in one direction?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
It's funny. My dream was to be a sprint car driver,
and so it was an interesting kind of process because
I got to do that with Tony. And as I
did that, I accomplished a lot of what I wanted to.
I want won a lot of races. When won, you know,
multiple championships and both in both vehicles. And then I
remember Tony asking me, you know, hey, do you want
(04:30):
to come race NASCAR or IndyCar. I can help you,
you know, I can, we can, we can make this happen.
And I told him no, I told him I was good.
I said I'm happy. I want to erase sprint cars.
And then about three months later, I was racing a
sprint car at Manzanita. I was leading a race and
I went over a lap cars right rear and just
crashed really hard and spent about almost a week in
(04:52):
the hospital. And I called Tony when I got out
of the hospital, and I was like, hey, I I
don't think I want to crash like this or much
longer in these types of vehicles. And so if that
offer is still on the table to pursue further endeavors
in motorsports, and I'd be interested in it. And it
wasn't much longer. He had me meetings with teams and
(05:14):
Dodge and Toyota was coming into the sport and I
was kind of on the radar for some opportunities in NASCAR.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
So what was Tony like as a boss, because he
looks like he's like old rough and graff and old business.
Was he Was he a good boss to have or
was he intimidating?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
He was awesome. He's such an incredible human. You know.
He moved me back to Indiana, he got me an apartment,
he incorporated me into every you know, I was only
eighteen years old, which is almost old by young drivers
standards today, but incorporated me into the decisions with a team.
But I'll never forget he called me and he hired
(05:56):
me to drive for his team. And then there was
a pavement sprint car at Erwindale Speedway and I was
running a local guy's car and Tony was running his
TSR pavement sprint car. They had brought it out to
Erwin Duck, California. I think I qualified fourth. I think
Tony qualified second, and this race kind of opens up
(06:16):
and a guy Bud Keating, kind of takes off with
the lead. Tony's running second, I'm running third, and I'm
trying to pass him, and he's kind of making a
heart on me. You know, Erwindoll, you would kind of
run the high line in the sprint car and so
you'd have to throw these like slide jobs, and he
just kind of send it in the corner with me
and wouldn't quite let me clear him. And I'm just thinking, like,
(06:38):
I've got to make this pass if I'm going to
win this race, because the leader's driving away and it's
my boss. But I'm like I'm losing patients here. I
really wasn't thinking about the boss part a whole lot,
and so after about three or four tries, I'm like,
that's it, Like I'm just I'm taking the I'm taking
the position the next time, and so I sent it
in the corner and I hit him with my right
(07:01):
rear in his left front and he crashed and I
did a little damage to my car and I went
on to finish second in the race. But honestly, the
rest of the race, I couldn't think straight because I
was thinking about how I just threw away my opportunity
to drive for Tony Stewart the next year. And when
I came in the fits, he's standing in my pit
(07:23):
like with his arms crossed like he's mad, and now
my Tony Stewart's gonna beat me up. Now I'm gonna
lose my ride. And he walks over the car and
he sticks his head in he goes, that's exactly why
I'm hiring you to drive for me next year. Oh wow,
and gave me a little pat on the head. And yeah,
So it was cool. It was pretty funny, but not
(07:43):
the you know, I think I think we'd only met
each other one time before that, So that was our
second kind of encounter.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
That's really cool. Is there one from driving for him?
Did you then, like one big thing that made him
as good as he was?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
No, Look, I know you've experienced this. There are drivers
and even athletes that are incredible at what they do
that have no idea how to articulate it. And I'll
never forget. I got my first NASCAR test that Tony
helped me get. It was actually for Penske. They were
doing a test at Memphis and I call him. I'm
(08:22):
on my way there and I said, hey, like, I
got this test. You know I'm going it's tomorrow and
I need some help and feedback. And he's like, oh,
you'll figure it out. That was it. That was all
I got. You'll figure out it was the tires a
little different, so that's going to be weird for you,
but you'll figure it out. So yeah, there's and I
(08:44):
deal with this on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Now.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
There are drivers that can really deeply articulate their craft,
and there are some that are really great. I was
probably one of those for a long period where I
just I didn't really understand that even the internal strategy
said I had developed over time and how I was
implementing those I couldn't really articulate them.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
I don't think many can unless it's a conscious thing
where you think about the strategies. I don't think that.
I mean, we all grow up learning to go fast,
but we don't know how or why. I had a
similar story. I was at Milwaukee and Champcar in two
thousand and six and I was racing for Jimmy Vassa
and I'd never driven on an oval before. It's my
first oval and it's in a Champ Car, and I go, Jimmy,
(09:26):
what do I do? And you go, Staven Steer, Baby,
stavenste jesus, Okay, helpful, thanks, Yeah, so you move up
through the NASCAR ranks. One of the really interesting things
that I found about you was you got sponsored by
a doge coin before anybody really even knew what bitcoin was.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, and I would be doing this interview from an
island that I own if I would have just kept
a little bit of doge coin that I had at
the time. Yeah, it's super interesting. And now this whole
cryptocurrency thing is taken off. But that was a cool experience.
I mean, my NASCAR career, my career beyond my sprint
card career was I mean, it was a flop, you know,
and I think that's really what drove well, that's what
(10:11):
drove a lot of what I do now, you know.
I think I came here and I came with this
mindset of I didn't think about what I was doing
much in a car. I had watched and participated in
a lot of races, and I was really good at
sprint car races. I was really aggressive, I wasn't afraid,
and I won a lot of races. And when I
came to Charlotte, I just had the mindset that I
(10:32):
had some magical power that had been blessed upon me
at birth, and that I had carried me to this
point and that it was going to continue to do that.
And I begin to encounter others with equal magical powers
than me, and I didn't know what to do with that.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
And you did actually believe in some form of being
blessed with an ability to do something at that point
before you went down the rabbit hole.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
That was the foundation of my belief at that point. Yeah,
and also my demise was that mindset in the sense.
And so I think when we have our fun conversations
about it. I think that's why I'm an extremist on
the other side of that, because that belief system will
ruin drivers and specifically the drivers that I work with.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Right, So what came first for you then? Like chicken
and egg situation? Did you want to go down the
driver development route and have this big plan that you
(11:39):
could do it in a more awesome way than anybody else,
or did it kind of find you when you started
analyzing what you were doing yourself.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, it's a great question, and it's kind of a
multiple things happening. I spent about ten years in NASCAR
between truck Exfinity and the Cup Series, and for the
first solid five I was just relying on this invisible
power that I thought I had that wasn't showing up
for some reason. And then I finally turned a corner
(12:08):
and said, you know, I might I might actually need
to work at this a little bit and try to
find a way to sharpen my skills. And so I think, naturally,
what did people do when you start thinking about I
want to make myself better? You go to a gym
if you're not already. And I'd never gone to a
gym in my life, and I said, I'm going to
go to a gym. I started working out, and then
(12:30):
I got a bike and I started riding it, and
I really enjoyed that. I started running a little bit.
And then me and one of my best friends now
and also one of my partners in my business now,
Scott Speed, we just signed up for a sprint triathon.
I did it. It's really fun. I fell in love
with the competitive nature of it, and I decided to
do more. And then I started to get fascinated by
(12:52):
how my body in my mind was changing. And in
long story short, over the next five years, I went
from some one who who really had never gone to
gyms and wasn't working out to I was a world
class tri athlete. I qualified for the World iron Man
World Championships. I won an Ironman in Florida. I got
(13:13):
extremely fit.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
So when you were doing the triathlons and still racing,
what did you notice that it helped.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Well, my mind more than my body, you know, to
begin with. And so you know, I started trying to
be fit thinking it was going to help me in
the car. And then certainly there's a point fitness is
necessary in the race car and different types of vehicles
and tracks and demands are going to require different levels
of fitness. But what I also realized and what underpins
(13:44):
our program is that you know, and I say it plainly,
but it sounds all it sounds almost uh, you know, counterintuitor,
But like fitness won't when you races. It just there's
a level of physical requirement to run a race. But
the races, the great races and moments that we see
in cars are people winning with their mind and their
(14:06):
thinking and the strategies and implementation and habits they develops,
and how they think and pursue their craft. And so
you know, for us, now we get people are athletes
to a level of fitness that's required to execute the races,
but then we reallocate energy on things that we feel
(14:26):
can move the needle with their craft, you know. And
so a lot of things happen in that Iron Man experience.
You know, I had a lot of trainers, I started
working with some psychologists and just all nutritionness and all
kinds of things, and it made me think about the body,
how adaptive it is, the things that that it will
(14:48):
adapt to when it's presented with an environment, and then
also just how un refined. Our system was in motorsports
for actually developing the human part of a race car athlete.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
And it still is. Apart from what you're doing, I
don't see anybody doing anything similar. So you went back
to school and you learned about that mental aspect and
poured all your energy into that. And then how did
you hook up with Chevy and GM.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
When I started this program, it was with Chip Kanassi
Racing essentially, you know. It was with Kyle Larson, Tyler Reddick,
Jamie McMurray at Chip Kanassi Racing and then Sue Ross Chastain,
and so early in that endeavor, like you said, I
realized the psychological part of this was going to be
(15:43):
the most important element. So I just started. I took
classes at night and I went and I got my
degree in psychology and really built this program on that foundation,
and with that as the underpinning. As that was going
at Ganassi, we were just having the good results, you know,
and I think drivers were talking about the difference that
(16:05):
that At that time it was just me that I
was making, I guess, and then I started to get
more demand and I started to try to figure out
how I could help more people and also find great
people to work in the program alongside alongside of me
and allow us to accommodate more drivers essentially. And at
(16:26):
that time, Chevy was building their technical center. Pat Suwey,
you know, had been becoming a big supporter of what
we were doing. We're doing some work in the simulators
and helping on some things with that, and Eric Warren
was coming into GM at the time and just really
believed in the vision I had and where I was going.
And now the rest is history. You know, five years
(16:46):
or so, we've been a Chevy you know, supplier for
human performance.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, and I literally I know that a lot of
manufacturers have different development programs for their young drivers or
their existing drivers even but I don't think anybody does
it the same way that you do it, because you
do it and it's like an all encompassing thing. I mean,
you've got the fantastic facilities at the GM Tech Center,
(17:17):
but then you also incorporate the driving, different kinds of driving,
and the mental aspect and all the things. So it's
like a holistic approach and it's almost like a support
system for them too, and like a community.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Sure. Yeah, when I was beginning and as it's grown.
It's like what would I have dreamed of having as
a driver, you know, I think that's it's like, what
would be my dream if I was a driver to
have as a support system and a facility and tools
and data and study materials. And there's not anything that
(17:58):
we don't If we see somewhere we can do something
for the drivers, we just do it. It's what we're
passionate about and what I get out of bed for
every day.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
So a good example for the listeners of somebody that
you've worked with who's been ultra successful going through it
would obviously be Connor's illage. You got him right at
that impressionable age. And what was it the age that
you told me that you need to have drivers by
to make a difference. I think I'm past it already,
but is it like fourteen or something? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I mean, look, I don't want to say we can't
make a difference in anyone, right, but I think that
when I need to oversimplify things in my mind to
help me process them. Same as a part of that,
the understanding I have of the human mind and brain
and neurology. I'll use an example. You know, if you
(18:54):
and I were to sit down to learn a language
right now and we had a ten year old child
with us. Over the course of the next year, the
child would earn would learn that language at a multiple
faster than we would.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Sticky brain.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, and the reason is their brain is just more
it's more soft. Essentially, it'll take the pathways, are not isolated,
they're not secured. Information moves more freely, and as we age,
our brain becomes more constrained, and so essentially, you know,
we think our brain is getting more connections and getting
(19:29):
smarter as we get older. Really we're closing off connections, right,
We're kind of getting you know, dumber. We just look
smarter for a period of time when we have the
right amount of connections closed up. Yeah. Well yeah, all
the things that you're not supposed to do, right, that's experience.
I've seen this before. And so the cool thing when
we get a younger driver and why we really focus
(19:49):
on younger drivers, really younger than Connor. You know, Connor
was fourteen fifteen when we got to know him and
started with him, and now we're i mean we're starting
at ten, eleven, twelve, and Tristan McKee was twelve years
old and so we can make a massive impact on
a young driver with the curriculum that we have, the
(20:10):
thinking models that we have, and we can get their
brain really, really working in a unique way. And you
see it with Connor, you know, and you're going to
see it with a few more drivers that are coming
that are going to be really special in our sport.
And a lot of that is their willingness to work hard,
you know, their ability to adapt to the race car
and feel a race car, but also the kind of
(20:33):
infrastructure that we're helping them build into their minds at
a young age.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
You also challenge them. So I came into this and
talking to you thinking that confidence was everything, and so
you put them in a situation where they win and
then they have this ultimate belief in their self, and
you challenge that way of thinking because you said, they've
got to get used to losing as well. So you
(20:59):
put them in situations that are uncomfortable, so they get
comfortable being uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Sure, yeah, it's I think we've talked about this, but
my belief is we've never developed in motorsports. We've actually
anti developed, and we overspecialize and we have to put
young drivers in exceptional equipment so that they can win
and they can get opportunity. And in that process, we're
(21:25):
narrowing skill sets. We're putting them on the front row
and qualifying in the poll every week in a car,
and so they're not learning real gritty, tough race craft,
and they're also not dealing with any psychological adversity, you know.
And so Connor is an example of implementation of that.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
We put him in a lot of scenarios where we
didn't want him in the best cars when we were
working through his process. And part of that was that,
like I wanted him to come into the office on
Monday and be frustrated and sit down and talk about
how to deal with that, how to process that, controlling
the things that he can control, identifying the things that
(22:03):
he can control, figuring out how he could help hold
the levers that mattered for him. And so we wait
too late in drivers' careers to do this and for us,
you know, there's a belief system, right that our whole
system is different than anything that's ever been done because
we're not trying to win all the races with our
(22:27):
junior drivers. We're trying to win the game of human
development in their mind and their body, and so we're
just we're just playing a different game than has ever
been played with our development philosophies.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Do you think that there's a responsibility you have to
them for the way that you are doing this as
they develop outside of racing too? And what I mean
is like, when are you talked to any of those drivers,
like you speak to Ross or Connor or whoever, Like
they're genuinely they seem like they're great people as well,
(23:01):
and so they're well rounded, and I think that they
would do just fine outside of racing. And I think
sometimes I've thought about it with regards to bringing young
female drivers up and through and that is okay if
you give them the tools that they need to be
a fantastic race card driver, and in some aspects they
(23:24):
have to shut off to what it is to be normal,
right or what's classed as normal in the outside world.
Then what happens when they stop driving? Do you just
like let them go and they have no ability to
do life? Like do you think about that too?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I live in that And you know, the most important
part of this for me is like we're a life program.
We're we're actually not a racing program, and all of
my staff, my system is built on being a life program,
and we tow the line because it would be a
lot easier to just be a racing to be honest
with you, like, we could send drivers and we could
(24:02):
win more races for sure, one hundred percent, But we
want them to win at life and we want them
to leave, you know. The best. The most amazing feedback
that I can get is not that, hey, you guys
helped me win a race. It's that, like, you change
my life. And there's drivers that have left the program
that are retired that have said that their life has changed,
(24:25):
you know, And so that's really really important to us.
And and and with that too, I think you race
the way you live anyway. So it's a little it's
a lot harder for us, but in the end, it's
a much stronger foundation that supports long term success on
and off the track for the people we work with.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Interesting, I'm going to lose sleep over the race. You wait,
the way you live now? Yeah? Yeah, desperate, it's like
the old season. Yeah, Like I'm friends, I'm checking my phone,
I'm like, why has it souned so cooled? Mean, why
don't this happened. Why hasn't that happened? And then yeah,
sometimes you get in the race car, you like, I
have to prove myself, I have to do this, and
(25:06):
it carries over. So I'm going to give that some thoughts.
So the reason that one of the reasons that we
met was talking about female drivers, and this year was
the first year that you have worked with developing any
female drivers. Do you believe And I've got to say
that this is a silly question because I know you're
going to say yes because you have two daughters as well, Right,
(25:29):
you believe that there is no reason why a woman
can't be every bit as good as a dude in
a race car.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
There's no reason, And I don't and you and I
have talked about this a lot, like I don't even
know what it is, right, if I'm being completely honest,
you know, I think there's probably a lot of factors
at play. But I've used this example, you know, with you,
I think that there's a part of it that you know,
I use the Roger Banister story where you know, there
(25:56):
was a point in time where everyone believed it was
physiolog impossible for a human to run under a four
minute mile, and for years people would get close, they'd
run low fors and science and trainers and runners. Everyone
was just like, that's it. We can't it's just not possible.
No one's ever going to do it.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I'm never going to do it.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Well, Roger Banister goes and breaks the mile, you know,
by a few tenths or a one second. I'm going
to get the numbers wrong here, but the fundamentals of
the story are going to convey the message, I think.
And then within the next year and two and three
and five years, people just started breaking the mile. Everybody's
breaking it. Now a high school runner can break four
minute miles. And so I don't think running is a
(26:42):
pretty straightforward activity, you know. And so to say that
there's a massive shift in the way that people are
running or something happened there within those years, I think
would be a stretch. But I think that we have
these psychological barriers, you know, when things haven't been done before,
it's just harder to do them, you know. I even
(27:05):
think back to practice sessions and a cup car like
Swindy cars like you go You're like, oh man, I
got it all, that's it, and then someone goes boom
and two tents and you're like, oh wow, I can
go two tents fast. Maybe you go and you're like
got two point two two, and then it's like boom,
someone goes another tent fast and you're like, I guess
there's more. I'm gonna go out and get more. And
(27:26):
so I think this is a part of some of
the challenge, you know, and I think we're going to
learn a lot about it. I'm really passionate about this
right now. I really we have some young young females
in the program now that are really good racers, really
great humans, and and and you're you're becoming a part
of this with us, which I'm really excited about, and
(27:47):
you already have been. And you know, for me, it's
like we want to do special things and help great
people achieve things. And so this is this is something
I'm very passionate about.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Right now, and do it better than anybody else has
done it, with more for thought I'm planning. I love
it so much. I have given a lot of thought
as to Okay, what makes it good race car driver?
Really good? If it's not you're born with a certain
amount of ability to feel a car, then is it
how much programming you do, Like do you think the
(28:18):
more lapse and the more experience you have that builds
that kind of database of X equals Z in a corner.
I know that you like analyze corners slightly differently to
traditional traditional methods too, but like, is it your ability
to process your subconscious? Like is it how hard you try,
(28:43):
how much work you put in, Like I don't think
anybody apart from you maybe outworks me, But I don't
think even though I've been doing this for twenty years,
I have as much experience as some of the young drivers,
Like Connor has probably got more time in a car
than I have in his short amount of time. For
his experience, let's call it, is more than mine, and
(29:04):
so his subconscious can go there without even thinking about it,
Like how much of it is? How much you want it?
Like there's just so many factors that go into it,
but you've kind of broken it down into a methodical,
step by step way of thinking about it.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah, I'm still figuring it out though, too, And I mean,
I think you have to start with obsession, right, But.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
At this level, isn't everybody like it is everything that
they wake up and eat, sleep, drink.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, I know, I don't think so. I think that people,
you know, distribute energy in different ways, and so maybe
they wake up and they eat, sleep and drink it,
but their application and actions that they're taking towards achieving
(29:58):
what they're obsessed with aren't optimal. I think you can
be obsessed with being a race car driver, or I
think you can be obsessed with driving race cars. I
think you need to be obsessed with driving race cars.
And there's a big difference in the two.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Oh you mean like holistically, Yeah, yeah, but you have
to really enjoy the actual art of driving itself.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yes, And I have yet to encounter a incredible top
point zero one percent race car driver that isn't obsessed
with driving race cars.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
If there was a litmus test for that, it would
be like, take a bunch of people to a giant
racing complex and you can race for two weeks straight.
Show me the time stamp of who drove the most
different types of race cars and did the most laps,
and I'll bet you that's probably what we would call
(30:58):
the most talented race car driver.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Of the group. Yeah, that's actually a really good point.
But I'm thinking about that, and I'm thinking if it
were me at that multiplex and I had a good
car and I was fast, it would be me at
the top of the sheet. But if I had a
bad car, droppy, and I'd be like this, socks, who
are we're doing this? Oh?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, So you get into all kinds of other fun right, yeah,
all kinds of other fun things that drive motivation, right,
and desire to yeah, to participate. And if you're not participating,
then you're not able to refine your skill sets. So
now you're sitting out because you got the bad car.
But now everyone else is getting better because they got
the good car. So now when you get the good car,
(31:40):
you're still not as good as them because they've been
getting better more than you. Right, All kinds of a
big tangle web there we get into, I know.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
And I'll fall into it quite often because I catch
myself thinking, Okay, I just for once want a really
good car, and like I want to drive a Penske
for a season, just to see what I'm capable of doing.
Like how much of it is me? How much of
it is a situation? How much of it am I driven?
Because I don't want to fail at being a race
(32:10):
car driver, and how much of it is because I
want to win and all these things, And I'm sure
like to take all of that out of somebody's career.
Like you said to me early on about the if
it could be everything that you wanted when you were
a kid, what would that be like, I would want
to take that away. I would want to be given
(32:31):
the opportunity. I know that somebody had my back and
was going to do it, and I didn't have to
worry about where my ride was coming from, or where
my sponsorship was coming from, and who I want and where,
because that takes so much mental energy. And I think
I would have been a completely different driver had that happened.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I'm sure you would have been. Whether that completely different
driver is better or worse, though, is right? Because right,
because you got to be scrappy and there's a level
of and I think it can go either way, but
like there's a level of when you have to fight
for something right, you just bring another level of intensity.
(33:11):
And so if it was all handed to us, even
to me, right, I could say the same thing. I
had to really scrap my way. I had no funding
my entire life. You know, and had to just claw
my way by performance and relationships really to to have
the opportunities I had. And so I was a really
good race car driver really until I got to NASCAR.
(33:33):
I would agree with anyone on.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
That I had some good results. Yeah, you went in
it long enough to tell whether, but but.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I learned to really, you know, really fight for it.
You know. I really was on track at least, even
though I wasn't necessarily like working out or things like.
I really and I didn't think of it as studying,
but I watched races with a razor sharp mind and analysis,
(34:05):
you know, And I wasn't studying. I was like, I
loved to race, and so I was making sure I
raced well. It was what I was doing at that time.
And so there's all kinds of factors that come into
play when you're if I know I have a guaranteed ride,
am I spending the extra few hours watching a race studying,
you know, trying to make sure I perform because it's
(34:28):
a guaranteed thing.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Anyway, Yeah, I look at Formula One drivers and I
thought this a while ago. You look at the ones
who didn't have the rich daddies and the years in
(34:50):
F three and F three thousand, like the gents and
buttons who had the kind of scrap his way up there.
And I think that if you're giving it on a plate,
then it doesn't mean as much to you because you
didn't have to do as much for it, And so
I definitely see that in a lot of drivers, although
now I will also say it seems like the ones
(35:10):
who are giving it on a play are doing really
well because they kind of appreciate what they've got and
there are programs open to them that make them better too.
But it's fascinating to think about the psyche that goes
on behind because in all sports there's psychologists that specialize
in that sport, sure, but in racing there really hasn't
(35:33):
been up until now. Sure.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
What's hard because the relatability part of it, you know,
I think it's it's tricky when you haven't experience an
environment to speak to it. And with other sports you
can watch you can see. I can see a football
player moving on a field, I can see a tennis player,
(35:57):
you know, and practice a car, you're isolated too, like
you're sitting in this machine. At best, you see someone's head,
you know, poking out somewhere and you're seeing this machine
move about a track, and it's it's a hard thing
to relate to if someone hasn't experienced that, you know,
the different there's a lot of different elements you're dealing
(36:21):
with in there that it's even hard to articulate to
someone outside of that environment.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
And I guess like back in the day, there was
really no practicing or practicing was testing, which is really expensive,
whereas you could go throw a football around or a
basketball or baseball or whatever it may be. But now
you have simulated, so now like sims have kind of
changed the game because you can still be putting what
you're thinking about into practice in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
How much do you think sims translate into real life driving.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
I think it's about all about how you conceptualize it,
you know. I think that if someone doesn't want to
conceptualize it into the real world, then it's not going
to translate at all. And if someone wants to deeply
conceptualize and figure out what types of you know, sensory
(37:17):
feedback can can cross over, then they're going to get
a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Out of it. When you drive the sim does it translate.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
I think a lot. I think a lot because I
think I'm a I conceptualize a lot of things. I
think I live my day in conceptualization. You know, I
can go for a walk down the sidewalk and I
can hit a corner and I'm like, oh, hit that corner.
Good hit that apex, And I like walking crosses over
to something if I wanted to. And so the sims
(37:47):
are incredible. I mean, you didn't when I was younger,
and when you were younger, like we didn't have these tools,
and it's crazy. You jump on I Racing and you can.
We've got an F one car going over there today,
you know, something a little different and fun on a
street course. And it's like it's unbelievable that you can
jump in an F one car. So I remember the
(38:09):
first day. Scott Speed's a really good e racer now,
like I mean, like the best I've ever seen. I
remember the first time he ran I racing. He came
over to my house. This is about almost twenty years ago.
It comes over and I've got like a little desktop
set up and I'm like, hey, check out this this game,
(38:31):
this deal. You know, He's like, I've heard of that.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
I was like, it's just another video game. And I'm like, man,
I'm running a Formula One car and I forget where
I was where I was running it, but I'm running it.
He's like, oh, yeah, I've raced there, you know. I said, well,
jump on and just try it, like see. And he
got on and ran and he ran like three laps
and ran like a second faster night It right out
of the gate. And I'd been running on it for
(38:53):
like two days. And he got up and he was
real quiet, and I was like, that's incredible. I said,
you just ran faster Nighted And I've been practicing on
this saying thing for days. And he goes, I used
my same exact break markers and turning points that I
would have used in my life. And this is a
long time ago. Yeah, And so so to have access
(39:14):
to a tool like that, not to mention it's just fun,
you know, but to have access to it as a
tool and we can run We can run Pie, you
can run PI and Motech. You know. We can build
sectors and a track map for Sonoma, just like we
have for a real workbook at Sonoma. When the X
Men and Cupcast go there and so it's it's incredible
(39:35):
and to think, you know, to think that you wouldn't
use it as crazy. You know, we really try to
leverage the simulation stuff as much as possible.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Yeah, it's It's definitely helped me enormously this year, just
because a lot of the tracks I haven't been to,
so like just to learn has been really good. I
almost feel like I would have got more out of
it had I gone Post week as well and then
gone back and like Maine notes and like figured out
(40:05):
after I'd run the real car there too, as much
as learning the tracks.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
But you live, and I have a couple of questions
for you that I've Oh, yeah, maybe if you've been
asked these before on here, you you could say I've
already answered that. Go check this episode number. But what's
the best piece of advice you've ever gotten.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I probably got lots of great advice when I was
younger and thought that I knew it all and didn't
take any of it into consideration. But I'm older and
wiser now. My dad, I'm very lucky. I think I'm
the product of my dad also spending time. I used
to think that he lectured me right, but after every
(40:43):
race like he would. I pretend I was asleep on
the way back from karting as well, because he would
over at me. He's a little bit like you, and
his mind is always analyzing everything and then it will
go down down the freet and you know, he'd be
like the eighty sixth brocket On turned t and I'm
like Jesus Christ dance. But I think it wasn't advice.
(41:08):
It was more like, hey, if you want this, then
you have to lead people into it. He said, if
you want to get up to if you want a race,
you're going to get up, and then you're going to
get me up. I am not going to be the
one who's waking you up in the morning to get
a race, because it's not my thing. It's your thing,
and it's going to be the same with everybody else.
If you want to drive for that team, you go
(41:28):
and talk to that team. If you want to get sponsor,
you going like nobody's going to do it for you.
You have to dig in and do the difficult things.
And when I was a kid, I was really shy
and I still don't love like introducing myself to new
people and everything else. But you get used to it,
but I think he instilled in me that like, if
it's something you want, then you have to do it
(41:50):
for you.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
I love that that seems pretty impactful for you because
you're like, you're going and getting it, and that's probably
a big part of that. Yeah, I should a big.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Boulder of a big hill, but that's awesome, lucky to
get that.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
And then what, what's the best race you've ever run
in your life? And walk me through it psychologically.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Hmmm.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
There don't have to be a whim. It could be like, man,
this thing was falling.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Apart, and I was like, sometimes.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Yeah, those are good ones.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Sometimes they're the ones where you finished like twelve and yeah,
yeah I was a hero because you didn't overdrive it,
but you drive it to the limit of the car
and you're like, I know, this is all that's gotten.
I've got to be disciplined about staying right here. I
had a lot of those races in Atlantics, and I
(42:45):
think that that was a factor of who I was
surrounded with. So I came over here and I was
isolated away from my family. I wasn't super young, I
was early twenties, but I was so hungry to race
and I landed with the best people possible. I raced
with Polestar and Jim and Pam Griffith, and I lived
(43:07):
with them in Shardan, Ohio. And so from the moment
I got up in the morning until the moment I
went to bed, like Jim was teaching me about diffs
and uprights and suspension and like how the clutch worked,
and I was like, well, how does that work, how
does that damp work, what's the blow of file do?
What's the third spring? You know? And so I was
(43:29):
kind of getting an education in it, and I was
loving every minute of it. And I just felt so
much support that every time I got in that race car,
I wasn't just doing it for me either. I was
doing it for them too, because they put so much
into it that I felt a responsibility to do that.
So like literally every Atlantic race when you said that
(43:53):
you were really aggressive and you made the most out
of it when you were sprint car racing, That's how
I felt in Atlantics, because I was like, there's no
way this guy's beating me. And I'd stick it down
the inside and there was just like it was a
whole different Catherine, and I think that that goes to
show that the team that you're with and the environment
that you're in affects you massively, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
For sure. Yeah, the people you're surrounded by are so critical.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
One hundred. I've driven for some really good teams and
I've driven for some bad teams. And I think one
of the best teams I ever drove for was MSR
Mike Shank and Mike Micro managed everything right, but he
made sure every single thing was perfect and everybody was
held accountable and his work ethic was impeccable, and so
(44:42):
I had the same kind of experience there as well.
It was almost I told him it's like daddy issues
because I wanted to make him happy, right, I wanted
him to go, Yes, you've done a really good job, Catherine.
So in a way, I think you hold yourself to
the standard of the people around you and what they're
holding themselves to as well. Sure, and it's easy to
make excuses if you're not driving for a great team
(45:03):
because like, oh the college yet even if you did
a good job, But if you're driving for one of
the top teams, then it's harder to hide behind all that.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yeah. Absolutely, the network of people, especially as a driver
you have around you, I think is so critical because
it can be pretty lonely. Right, It's hard to you know,
describe that how lonely it can feel. As a race
car driver, it's a unique form of being an athlete
and being you know, watched and held accountable for the
(45:37):
performance of something that a lot of people are interacting with. Yeah, yeah,
not even just your competitors, but your team as well,
and so it can feel like a very lonely journey
at times, you know. So it's great when you have
good people around you like that.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
And you sacrifice everything else in your life for that thing,
you know, other relationships and how having a normal life
and everything else. But I mean, I've been doing it
for a long, long long time now and I'm still learning.
Like even now, I've got people who don't call me directly.
They'll call like my sponsor or whoever else and talk
(46:15):
to them because it's still a little bit of a
boys club, and I'm like, I want to be taken seriously,
like talk to me. I'm the one doing the deal,
Like let's go, let's just talk to me on it.
And so I'm still finding these roadblocks. And somebody said
to me the other day when I was at a
conference for Droplight, one of my main sponsors, they said
somebody had told them in the inn car paddock that
I was difficult to deal with. I'm like difficult. I
(46:38):
don't think that I'm difficult. But then it got me thinking, okay,
as a woman, like if you're hard, then you're a bitch.
If you're a bloke and you're driving a race car,
then you just like dedicated and you know what you want.
But if you're a girl and doing it, then you
get labeled something completely different. And I was thinking, I
don't think I'm difficult. I just I want what I want.
(47:00):
And sometimes when I come across I've learnt behavior from
watching the other guys do it right, because I always
used to look at like Jensen Bomber was a great example,
like how would he act or how would aj Omaninger
act on the radio when he was my teammate, And
so I would always try and like model myself and
be as unemotional because women tend to be more emotional.
(47:24):
I would try and be like as robotic as humanly possible,
and so I didn't get labeled things like that. But
then even still now like if I was a bloke
saying no, I think it's this, I think you're wrong,
then they'd be like, Okay, we'll look into it. But yeah,
taken taken differently. So I'm still trying to learn and navigate,
(47:47):
and I really want to because I really want to
make a difference for the next generation. You know. I
see that they have this opportunity in front of them
where they can be different and they can be special,
and then, you know, maybe we will have a woman
in F one one day. I don't believe it's going
to be from the F one Academy, for sure. I
think it's going to be from doing this sure because
(48:09):
of the way that they're challenged at the highest level
rather than being limited in a woman only group. And
so if I can figure it out, then I can
be of more assistance as well. Even though it might
be a bit late for me to be the next
few month Formula one driver, it will it would be,
(48:29):
It would be good. But times are changing, things are changing,
and so I appreciate you challenging me to be better
for them because it's helping me too. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah, yeah, I love it. I mean I think you've
you know, talk about the maybe psychological barriers of it all.
I mean, you've pushed those out right, which are you know,
along with another just small group of women in motorsports,
right that have shown what's possible, and I think there's
still a limitless attention for what can be done motorsports.
(49:03):
For for a young female.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Athlete having daughters, have you noticed a difference in the
way that a you treat them as opposed to like
how you were treated when you were a kid, Like
I bet you're way more boisterous and stuff like that.
And has it changed the way you think about how
we develop these young female drivers.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
It's a good question. I for for my dad was
way harder than on me than I am with my daughters,
for sure, you know. And yeah, and I don't, you know,
I don't, I don't know, I don't know what that
what that comes from, right, But I want to I
want to love on my daughters and be you know,
(49:48):
I'm probably I'm definitely more kind and patient than my
My dad would just say you're an idiot, you know,
And I don't. I don't think I've ever said had
some of my daughters, you know, And maybe parenting has
changed too, right, I think there's so it's hard to
answer because there's generational things. There's I'm not intentional about
(50:10):
trying to treat my daughters, you know, different when it
comes to accountability and discipline and the core principles that
I want to instill in them. I guess I would say.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
That did they have any interest in playing with cars
as opposed to playing with Bobby?
Speaker 2 (50:30):
They really didn't. They they both had very brief glances
at cars and karting, but but they didn't. They didn't
come to many of my races when I was driving,
you know, I was kind of I was just doing that,
and and they were they were at home doing school
and and and so, so they haven't been deeply immersed
(50:51):
in motorsports either. They just know motorsports is really even
when I was a driver, motorsports just what I do
for my job, you know. And so they're on a say,
probably more interested in what I do now than what
I did as a driver.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
You know.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
My oldest daughter told me the other day she wanted
to be a psychologist and help people, which was interesting.
I'm like, well, that's that's cool, you know, like you'll
I think you'll enjoy that and so so yeah, we
never had any real real interest in racing, which I
have to tell you, I'm I'm happy in a way,
and I think you.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Was going to save you money. Well it's just.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
Like it's that. But also I mean, you live this
journey and I think you'll this will resonate and there
is a massive cost to be paid to be great
at this and to make it to the highest levels.
And so if I'm being honest, I wouldn't wish it
on anyone. You know, you you have to give up
your life. I give up my life. I think you
(51:46):
did too. And so I didn't go to social events
in high school. I didn't have friends. I got my
race cards ready. I race. I I it was what
I had, and I sacrificed my life to be a
race car driver. It was great. Our life was racing.
And so I just I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
If someone wants it, If my daughters wanted it, I
(52:07):
would have supported them. But in no way is it
my would it be some sort of imposed desire or
even or even something that I would hope they would desire.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
To be honest with you, golf clubs or tennis reckets,
or something else. Yeah. Anyway, I will not keep you
any longer, but I really appreciate your time and as always,
the super interesting conversations, and I am looking forward to
doing lots of good work with you in the future.
(52:39):
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it as well. Thank you,
thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
Thanks for listening to Throttle Therapy. We'll be back next
week with more updates and more overtakes. We want to
hear from you. Leave us a review in Apple Podcasts
and tell us what you want to talk about. It
might just be the topic for our next show. Throttle
Therapy is hosted by Katherine Legg. Our executive producer is
Jesse Katz, and our supervising producer is Grace Fuse. Listen
(53:09):
to Throttle Therapy on America's number one podcast network, iHeart,
open your free iHeart app and search throttle Therapy with
Katherine Legg and start listening.
Throttle Therapy with Catherine Legg is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to this
(00:22):
week's episode of Throttle Therapy with Me Catherine. And this
week I am honored to be joined by a relatively
new friend and somebody who I have to admit I
didn't know all that much about until this year, whose
thought process has challenged me and who I'm enamored with
in the way that the kind of thinking that he
(00:45):
does is another level like I thought, I put a
lot of thinking into racing and the psychology of racing
until I met him. And his name is Josh Weiss. Josh,
Welcome to the pod.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Ah, thank you, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Thanks for coming on. I think that the listeners are
going to be fascinated by you, because I am, because
I know that we've kind of gone backwards and forwards
on some sporting psychology stuff and we have a slight
difference of opinion on whether you're born with any level
of natural ability or not. But we'll get into that
(01:21):
first of all. I want to know how Josh Wise
got into racing, like you were, how old you were
in school? Your dad? Who? Why? What were one?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah? My grandfather owned some race cars in southern California
in the sixties and seventies and they raced at ascot
Or Sports Park, and so my dad, I think it
had grown up, you know, immersed in that and so
by the time I came around, they weren't doing that anymore.
But my family was, you know, a racing family in
(01:54):
a sense that we would go to sprint car races
and we were watching races on TV. And just from
the youngest age, I remember just thinking I want to
drive a race car. So my dad got me a
quarter midget when I was six years old and started
racing quarter midgets until I was about fourteen in southern
(02:15):
California and made my way through kind of an open wheel,
you know, oval sprint car type path. Just loved doing it.
Didn't necessarily think that I would ever move to a
level of being a professional in the sport. Although I
dreamt of it, I didn't see it as a reality.
My parents were were of average means, you know. My
(02:38):
dad was a truck drove out semi truck and my
mom was an administrative assistant and we just kind of
scraped buy and raced as much as we could and
we did well, but did never see it as I
was going to be a professional.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
You don't sound like you're from southern California to me,
and I know you do a lot of work with
Scott Speed, and so to me, Scott is like the
epit to me of southern California, and I always forget
that you're from there because you don't have the accent.
Did you move here relatively young?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Twenty years ago? I moved to Charlotte, So yeah, that
open wheel journey took me to Indianapolis for a few years.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Oh, that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
That was where I guess I had an opportunity in
racing and where it became a bit of a real thing.
Was I had won some big sprint car and midget races. No,
it would have been two thousand and three. But I
was sitting on my couch one day and I got
a phone call and it was an unknown number and
it was Tony Stewart and he was starting a sprint
car and midget team in Indianapolis and asked me if
(03:37):
I wanted to come drive for him, and so that
was when the kind of light bulb came on of well,
I might be able to actually make a living for
some period of time doing this, and then that journey
brought me to Charlotte eventually.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
That's so cool. So when you were grown up racing
sprint cousin stuff, was your granddad and your dad like
your heroes and racing or did you have somebody else
like Jeff Gordon that you wanted to be like, or
did you want to do IndyCar? Did you have hopes
and dreams and aspirations in one direction?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
It's funny. My dream was to be a sprint car driver,
and so it was an interesting kind of process because
I got to do that with Tony. And as I
did that, I accomplished a lot of what I wanted to.
I want won a lot of races. When won, you know,
multiple championships and both in both vehicles. And then I
remember Tony asking me, you know, hey, do you want
(04:30):
to come race NASCAR or IndyCar. I can help you,
you know, I can, we can, we can make this happen.
And I told him no, I told him I was good.
I said I'm happy. I want to erase sprint cars.
And then about three months later, I was racing a
sprint car at Manzanita. I was leading a race and
I went over a lap cars right rear and just
crashed really hard and spent about almost a week in
(04:52):
the hospital. And I called Tony when I got out
of the hospital, and I was like, hey, I I
don't think I want to crash like this or much
longer in these types of vehicles. And so if that
offer is still on the table to pursue further endeavors
in motorsports, and I'd be interested in it. And it
wasn't much longer. He had me meetings with teams and
(05:14):
Dodge and Toyota was coming into the sport and I
was kind of on the radar for some opportunities in NASCAR.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
So what was Tony like as a boss, because he
looks like he's like old rough and graff and old business.
Was he Was he a good boss to have or
was he intimidating?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
He was awesome. He's such an incredible human. You know.
He moved me back to Indiana, he got me an apartment,
he incorporated me into every you know, I was only
eighteen years old, which is almost old by young drivers
standards today, but incorporated me into the decisions with a team.
But I'll never forget he called me and he hired
(05:56):
me to drive for his team. And then there was
a pavement sprint car at Erwindale Speedway and I was
running a local guy's car and Tony was running his
TSR pavement sprint car. They had brought it out to
Erwin Duck, California. I think I qualified fourth. I think
Tony qualified second, and this race kind of opens up
(06:16):
and a guy Bud Keating, kind of takes off with
the lead. Tony's running second, I'm running third, and I'm
trying to pass him, and he's kind of making a
heart on me. You know, Erwindoll, you would kind of
run the high line in the sprint car and so
you'd have to throw these like slide jobs, and he
just kind of send it in the corner with me
and wouldn't quite let me clear him. And I'm just thinking, like,
(06:38):
I've got to make this pass if I'm going to
win this race, because the leader's driving away and it's
my boss. But I'm like I'm losing patients here. I
really wasn't thinking about the boss part a whole lot,
and so after about three or four tries, I'm like,
that's it, Like I'm just I'm taking the I'm taking
the position the next time, and so I sent it
in the corner and I hit him with my right
(07:01):
rear in his left front and he crashed and I
did a little damage to my car and I went
on to finish second in the race. But honestly, the
rest of the race, I couldn't think straight because I
was thinking about how I just threw away my opportunity
to drive for Tony Stewart the next year. And when
I came in the fits, he's standing in my pit
(07:23):
like with his arms crossed like he's mad, and now
my Tony Stewart's gonna beat me up. Now I'm gonna
lose my ride. And he walks over the car and
he sticks his head in he goes, that's exactly why
I'm hiring you to drive for me next year. Oh wow,
and gave me a little pat on the head. And yeah,
So it was cool. It was pretty funny, but not
(07:43):
the you know, I think I think we'd only met
each other one time before that, So that was our
second kind of encounter.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
That's really cool. Is there one from driving for him?
Did you then, like one big thing that made him
as good as he was?
Speaker 2 (07:57):
No, Look, I know you've experienced this. There are drivers
and even athletes that are incredible at what they do
that have no idea how to articulate it. And I'll
never forget. I got my first NASCAR test that Tony
helped me get. It was actually for Penske. They were
doing a test at Memphis and I call him. I'm
(08:22):
on my way there and I said, hey, like, I
got this test. You know I'm going it's tomorrow and
I need some help and feedback. And he's like, oh,
you'll figure it out. That was it. That was all
I got. You'll figure out it was the tires a
little different, so that's going to be weird for you,
but you'll figure it out. So yeah, there's and I
(08:44):
deal with this on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Now.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
There are drivers that can really deeply articulate their craft,
and there are some that are really great. I was
probably one of those for a long period where I
just I didn't really understand that even the internal strategy
said I had developed over time and how I was
implementing those I couldn't really articulate them.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
I don't think many can unless it's a conscious thing
where you think about the strategies. I don't think that.
I mean, we all grow up learning to go fast,
but we don't know how or why. I had a
similar story. I was at Milwaukee and Champcar in two
thousand and six and I was racing for Jimmy Vassa
and I'd never driven on an oval before. It's my
first oval and it's in a Champ Car, and I go, Jimmy,
(09:26):
what do I do? And you go, Staven Steer, Baby,
stavenste jesus, Okay, helpful, thanks, Yeah, so you move up
through the NASCAR ranks. One of the really interesting things
that I found about you was you got sponsored by
a doge coin before anybody really even knew what bitcoin was.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, and I would be doing this interview from an
island that I own if I would have just kept
a little bit of doge coin that I had at
the time. Yeah, it's super interesting. And now this whole
cryptocurrency thing is taken off. But that was a cool experience.
I mean, my NASCAR career, my career beyond my sprint
card career was I mean, it was a flop, you know,
and I think that's really what drove well, that's what
(10:11):
drove a lot of what I do now, you know.
I think I came here and I came with this
mindset of I didn't think about what I was doing
much in a car. I had watched and participated in
a lot of races, and I was really good at
sprint car races. I was really aggressive, I wasn't afraid,
and I won a lot of races. And when I
came to Charlotte, I just had the mindset that I
(10:32):
had some magical power that had been blessed upon me
at birth, and that I had carried me to this
point and that it was going to continue to do that.
And I begin to encounter others with equal magical powers
than me, and I didn't know what to do with that.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
And you did actually believe in some form of being
blessed with an ability to do something at that point
before you went down the rabbit hole.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
That was the foundation of my belief at that point. Yeah,
and also my demise was that mindset in the sense.
And so I think when we have our fun conversations
about it. I think that's why I'm an extremist on
the other side of that, because that belief system will
ruin drivers and specifically the drivers that I work with.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Right, So what came first for you then? Like chicken
and egg situation? Did you want to go down the
driver development route and have this big plan that you
(11:39):
could do it in a more awesome way than anybody else,
or did it kind of find you when you started
analyzing what you were doing yourself.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, it's a great question, and it's kind of a
multiple things happening. I spent about ten years in NASCAR
between truck Exfinity and the Cup Series, and for the
first solid five I was just relying on this invisible
power that I thought I had that wasn't showing up
for some reason. And then I finally turned a corner
(12:08):
and said, you know, I might I might actually need
to work at this a little bit and try to
find a way to sharpen my skills. And so I think, naturally,
what did people do when you start thinking about I
want to make myself better? You go to a gym
if you're not already. And I'd never gone to a
gym in my life, and I said, I'm going to
go to a gym. I started working out, and then
(12:30):
I got a bike and I started riding it, and
I really enjoyed that. I started running a little bit.
And then me and one of my best friends now
and also one of my partners in my business now,
Scott Speed, we just signed up for a sprint triathon.
I did it. It's really fun. I fell in love
with the competitive nature of it, and I decided to
do more. And then I started to get fascinated by
(12:52):
how my body in my mind was changing. And in
long story short, over the next five years, I went
from some one who who really had never gone to
gyms and wasn't working out to I was a world
class tri athlete. I qualified for the World iron Man
World Championships. I won an Ironman in Florida. I got
(13:13):
extremely fit.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
So when you were doing the triathlons and still racing,
what did you notice that it helped.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Well, my mind more than my body, you know, to
begin with. And so you know, I started trying to
be fit thinking it was going to help me in
the car. And then certainly there's a point fitness is
necessary in the race car and different types of vehicles
and tracks and demands are going to require different levels
of fitness. But what I also realized and what underpins
(13:44):
our program is that you know, and I say it plainly,
but it sounds all it sounds almost uh, you know, counterintuitor,
But like fitness won't when you races. It just there's
a level of physical requirement to run a race. But
the races, the great races and moments that we see
in cars are people winning with their mind and their
(14:06):
thinking and the strategies and implementation and habits they develops,
and how they think and pursue their craft. And so
you know, for us, now we get people are athletes
to a level of fitness that's required to execute the races,
but then we reallocate energy on things that we feel
(14:26):
can move the needle with their craft, you know. And
so a lot of things happen in that Iron Man experience.
You know, I had a lot of trainers, I started
working with some psychologists and just all nutritionness and all
kinds of things, and it made me think about the body,
how adaptive it is, the things that that it will
(14:48):
adapt to when it's presented with an environment, and then
also just how un refined. Our system was in motorsports
for actually developing the human part of a race car athlete.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
And it still is. Apart from what you're doing, I
don't see anybody doing anything similar. So you went back
to school and you learned about that mental aspect and
poured all your energy into that. And then how did
you hook up with Chevy and GM.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
When I started this program, it was with Chip Kanassi
Racing essentially, you know. It was with Kyle Larson, Tyler Reddick,
Jamie McMurray at Chip Kanassi Racing and then Sue Ross Chastain,
and so early in that endeavor, like you said, I
realized the psychological part of this was going to be
(15:43):
the most important element. So I just started. I took
classes at night and I went and I got my
degree in psychology and really built this program on that foundation,
and with that as the underpinning. As that was going
at Ganassi, we were just having the good results, you know,
and I think drivers were talking about the difference that
(16:05):
that At that time it was just me that I
was making, I guess, and then I started to get
more demand and I started to try to figure out
how I could help more people and also find great
people to work in the program alongside alongside of me
and allow us to accommodate more drivers essentially. And at
(16:26):
that time, Chevy was building their technical center. Pat Suwey,
you know, had been becoming a big supporter of what
we were doing. We're doing some work in the simulators
and helping on some things with that, and Eric Warren
was coming into GM at the time and just really
believed in the vision I had and where I was going.
And now the rest is history. You know, five years
(16:46):
or so, we've been a Chevy you know, supplier for
human performance.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, and I literally I know that a lot of
manufacturers have different development programs for their young drivers or
their existing drivers even but I don't think anybody does
it the same way that you do it, because you
do it and it's like an all encompassing thing. I mean,
you've got the fantastic facilities at the GM Tech Center,
(17:17):
but then you also incorporate the driving, different kinds of driving,
and the mental aspect and all the things. So it's
like a holistic approach and it's almost like a support
system for them too, and like a community.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Sure. Yeah, when I was beginning and as it's grown.
It's like what would I have dreamed of having as
a driver, you know, I think that's it's like, what
would be my dream if I was a driver to
have as a support system and a facility and tools
and data and study materials. And there's not anything that
(17:58):
we don't If we see somewhere we can do something
for the drivers, we just do it. It's what we're
passionate about and what I get out of bed for
every day.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
So a good example for the listeners of somebody that
you've worked with who's been ultra successful going through it
would obviously be Connor's illage. You got him right at
that impressionable age. And what was it the age that
you told me that you need to have drivers by
to make a difference. I think I'm past it already,
but is it like fourteen or something? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I mean, look, I don't want to say we can't
make a difference in anyone, right, but I think that
when I need to oversimplify things in my mind to
help me process them. Same as a part of that,
the understanding I have of the human mind and brain
and neurology. I'll use an example. You know, if you
(18:54):
and I were to sit down to learn a language
right now and we had a ten year old child
with us. Over the course of the next year, the
child would earn would learn that language at a multiple
faster than we would.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Sticky brain.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, and the reason is their brain is just more
it's more soft. Essentially, it'll take the pathways, are not isolated,
they're not secured. Information moves more freely, and as we age,
our brain becomes more constrained, and so essentially, you know,
we think our brain is getting more connections and getting
(19:29):
smarter as we get older. Really we're closing off connections, right,
We're kind of getting you know, dumber. We just look
smarter for a period of time when we have the
right amount of connections closed up. Yeah. Well yeah, all
the things that you're not supposed to do, right, that's experience.
I've seen this before. And so the cool thing when
we get a younger driver and why we really focus
(19:49):
on younger drivers, really younger than Connor. You know, Connor
was fourteen fifteen when we got to know him and
started with him, and now we're i mean we're starting
at ten, eleven, twelve, and Tristan McKee was twelve years
old and so we can make a massive impact on
a young driver with the curriculum that we have, the
(20:10):
thinking models that we have, and we can get their
brain really, really working in a unique way. And you
see it with Connor, you know, and you're going to
see it with a few more drivers that are coming
that are going to be really special in our sport.
And a lot of that is their willingness to work hard,
you know, their ability to adapt to the race car
and feel a race car, but also the kind of
(20:33):
infrastructure that we're helping them build into their minds at
a young age.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
You also challenge them. So I came into this and
talking to you thinking that confidence was everything, and so
you put them in a situation where they win and
then they have this ultimate belief in their self, and
you challenge that way of thinking because you said, they've
got to get used to losing as well. So you
(20:59):
put them in situations that are uncomfortable, so they get
comfortable being uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Sure, yeah, it's I think we've talked about this, but
my belief is we've never developed in motorsports. We've actually
anti developed, and we overspecialize and we have to put
young drivers in exceptional equipment so that they can win
and they can get opportunity. And in that process, we're
(21:25):
narrowing skill sets. We're putting them on the front row
and qualifying in the poll every week in a car,
and so they're not learning real gritty, tough race craft,
and they're also not dealing with any psychological adversity, you know.
And so Connor is an example of implementation of that.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
We put him in a lot of scenarios where we
didn't want him in the best cars when we were
working through his process. And part of that was that,
like I wanted him to come into the office on
Monday and be frustrated and sit down and talk about
how to deal with that, how to process that, controlling
the things that he can control, identifying the things that
(22:03):
he can control, figuring out how he could help hold
the levers that mattered for him. And so we wait
too late in drivers' careers to do this and for us,
you know, there's a belief system, right that our whole
system is different than anything that's ever been done because
we're not trying to win all the races with our
(22:27):
junior drivers. We're trying to win the game of human
development in their mind and their body, and so we're
just we're just playing a different game than has ever
been played with our development philosophies.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Do you think that there's a responsibility you have to
them for the way that you are doing this as
they develop outside of racing too? And what I mean
is like, when are you talked to any of those drivers,
like you speak to Ross or Connor or whoever, Like
they're genuinely they seem like they're great people as well,
(23:01):
and so they're well rounded, and I think that they
would do just fine outside of racing. And I think
sometimes I've thought about it with regards to bringing young
female drivers up and through and that is okay if
you give them the tools that they need to be
a fantastic race card driver, and in some aspects they
(23:24):
have to shut off to what it is to be normal,
right or what's classed as normal in the outside world.
Then what happens when they stop driving? Do you just
like let them go and they have no ability to
do life? Like do you think about that too?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
I live in that And you know, the most important
part of this for me is like we're a life program.
We're we're actually not a racing program, and all of
my staff, my system is built on being a life program,
and we tow the line because it would be a
lot easier to just be a racing to be honest
with you, like, we could send drivers and we could
(24:02):
win more races for sure, one hundred percent, But we
want them to win at life and we want them
to leave, you know. The best. The most amazing feedback
that I can get is not that, hey, you guys
helped me win a race. It's that, like, you change
my life. And there's drivers that have left the program
that are retired that have said that their life has changed,
(24:25):
you know, And so that's really really important to us.
And and and with that too, I think you race
the way you live anyway. So it's a little it's
a lot harder for us, but in the end, it's
a much stronger foundation that supports long term success on
and off the track for the people we work with.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Interesting, I'm going to lose sleep over the race. You wait,
the way you live now? Yeah? Yeah, desperate, it's like
the old season. Yeah, Like I'm friends, I'm checking my phone,
I'm like, why has it souned so cooled? Mean, why
don't this happened. Why hasn't that happened? And then yeah,
sometimes you get in the race car, you like, I
have to prove myself, I have to do this, and
(25:06):
it carries over. So I'm going to give that some thoughts.
So the reason that one of the reasons that we
met was talking about female drivers, and this year was
the first year that you have worked with developing any
female drivers. Do you believe And I've got to say
that this is a silly question because I know you're
going to say yes because you have two daughters as well, Right,
(25:29):
you believe that there is no reason why a woman
can't be every bit as good as a dude in
a race car.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
There's no reason, And I don't and you and I
have talked about this a lot, like I don't even
know what it is, right, if I'm being completely honest,
you know, I think there's probably a lot of factors
at play. But I've used this example, you know, with you,
I think that there's a part of it that you know,
I use the Roger Banister story where you know, there
(25:56):
was a point in time where everyone believed it was
physiolog impossible for a human to run under a four
minute mile, and for years people would get close, they'd
run low fors and science and trainers and runners. Everyone
was just like, that's it. We can't it's just not possible.
No one's ever going to do it.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I'm never going to do it.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Well, Roger Banister goes and breaks the mile, you know,
by a few tenths or a one second. I'm going
to get the numbers wrong here, but the fundamentals of
the story are going to convey the message, I think.
And then within the next year and two and three
and five years, people just started breaking the mile. Everybody's
breaking it. Now a high school runner can break four
minute miles. And so I don't think running is a
(26:42):
pretty straightforward activity, you know. And so to say that
there's a massive shift in the way that people are
running or something happened there within those years, I think
would be a stretch. But I think that we have
these psychological barriers, you know, when things haven't been done before,
it's just harder to do them, you know. I even
(27:05):
think back to practice sessions and a cup car like
Swindy cars like you go You're like, oh man, I
got it all, that's it, and then someone goes boom
and two tents and you're like, oh wow, I can
go two tents fast. Maybe you go and you're like
got two point two two, and then it's like boom,
someone goes another tent fast and you're like, I guess
there's more. I'm gonna go out and get more. And
(27:26):
so I think this is a part of some of
the challenge, you know, and I think we're going to
learn a lot about it. I'm really passionate about this
right now. I really we have some young young females
in the program now that are really good racers, really
great humans, and and and you're you're becoming a part
of this with us, which I'm really excited about, and
(27:47):
you already have been. And you know, for me, it's
like we want to do special things and help great
people achieve things. And so this is this is something
I'm very passionate about.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Right now, and do it better than anybody else has
done it, with more for thought I'm planning. I love
it so much. I have given a lot of thought
as to Okay, what makes it good race car driver?
Really good? If it's not you're born with a certain
amount of ability to feel a car, then is it
how much programming you do, Like do you think the
(28:18):
more lapse and the more experience you have that builds
that kind of database of X equals Z in a corner.
I know that you like analyze corners slightly differently to
traditional traditional methods too, but like, is it your ability
to process your subconscious? Like is it how hard you try,
(28:43):
how much work you put in, Like I don't think
anybody apart from you maybe outworks me, But I don't
think even though I've been doing this for twenty years,
I have as much experience as some of the young drivers,
Like Connor has probably got more time in a car
than I have in his short amount of time. For
his experience, let's call it, is more than mine, and
(29:04):
so his subconscious can go there without even thinking about it,
Like how much of it is? How much you want it?
Like there's just so many factors that go into it,
but you've kind of broken it down into a methodical,
step by step way of thinking about it.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah, I'm still figuring it out though, too, And I mean,
I think you have to start with obsession, right, But.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
At this level, isn't everybody like it is everything that
they wake up and eat, sleep, drink.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, I know, I don't think so. I think that people,
you know, distribute energy in different ways, and so maybe
they wake up and they eat, sleep and drink it,
but their application and actions that they're taking towards achieving
(29:58):
what they're obsessed with aren't optimal. I think you can
be obsessed with being a race car driver, or I
think you can be obsessed with driving race cars. I
think you need to be obsessed with driving race cars.
And there's a big difference in the two.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Oh you mean like holistically, Yeah, yeah, but you have
to really enjoy the actual art of driving itself.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yes, And I have yet to encounter a incredible top
point zero one percent race car driver that isn't obsessed
with driving race cars.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
If there was a litmus test for that, it would
be like, take a bunch of people to a giant
racing complex and you can race for two weeks straight.
Show me the time stamp of who drove the most
different types of race cars and did the most laps,
and I'll bet you that's probably what we would call
(30:58):
the most talented race car driver.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Of the group. Yeah, that's actually a really good point.
But I'm thinking about that, and I'm thinking if it
were me at that multiplex and I had a good
car and I was fast, it would be me at
the top of the sheet. But if I had a
bad car, droppy, and I'd be like this, socks, who
are we're doing this? Oh?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, So you get into all kinds of other fun right, yeah,
all kinds of other fun things that drive motivation, right,
and desire to yeah, to participate. And if you're not participating,
then you're not able to refine your skill sets. So
now you're sitting out because you got the bad car.
But now everyone else is getting better because they got
the good car. So now when you get the good car,
(31:40):
you're still not as good as them because they've been
getting better more than you. Right, All kinds of a
big tangle web there we get into, I know.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
And I'll fall into it quite often because I catch
myself thinking, Okay, I just for once want a really
good car, and like I want to drive a Penske
for a season, just to see what I'm capable of doing.
Like how much of it is me? How much of
it is a situation? How much of it am I driven?
Because I don't want to fail at being a race
(32:10):
car driver, and how much of it is because I
want to win and all these things, And I'm sure
like to take all of that out of somebody's career.
Like you said to me early on about the if
it could be everything that you wanted when you were
a kid, what would that be like, I would want
to take that away. I would want to be given
(32:31):
the opportunity. I know that somebody had my back and
was going to do it, and I didn't have to
worry about where my ride was coming from, or where
my sponsorship was coming from, and who I want and where,
because that takes so much mental energy. And I think
I would have been a completely different driver had that happened.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I'm sure you would have been. Whether that completely different
driver is better or worse, though, is right? Because right,
because you got to be scrappy and there's a level
of and I think it can go either way, but
like there's a level of when you have to fight
for something right, you just bring another level of intensity.
(33:11):
And so if it was all handed to us, even
to me, right, I could say the same thing. I
had to really scrap my way. I had no funding
my entire life. You know, and had to just claw
my way by performance and relationships really to to have
the opportunities I had. And so I was a really
good race car driver really until I got to NASCAR.
(33:33):
I would agree with anyone on.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
That I had some good results. Yeah, you went in
it long enough to tell whether, but but.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I learned to really, you know, really fight for it.
You know. I really was on track at least, even
though I wasn't necessarily like working out or things like.
I really and I didn't think of it as studying,
but I watched races with a razor sharp mind and analysis,
(34:05):
you know, And I wasn't studying. I was like, I
loved to race, and so I was making sure I
raced well. It was what I was doing at that time.
And so there's all kinds of factors that come into
play when you're if I know I have a guaranteed ride,
am I spending the extra few hours watching a race studying,
you know, trying to make sure I perform because it's
(34:28):
a guaranteed thing.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Anyway, Yeah, I look at Formula One drivers and I
thought this a while ago. You look at the ones
who didn't have the rich daddies and the years in
(34:50):
F three and F three thousand, like the gents and
buttons who had the kind of scrap his way up there.
And I think that if you're giving it on a plate,
then it doesn't mean as much to you because you
didn't have to do as much for it, And so
I definitely see that in a lot of drivers, although
now I will also say it seems like the ones
(35:10):
who are giving it on a play are doing really
well because they kind of appreciate what they've got and
there are programs open to them that make them better too.
But it's fascinating to think about the psyche that goes
on behind because in all sports there's psychologists that specialize
in that sport, sure, but in racing there really hasn't
(35:33):
been up until now. Sure.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
What's hard because the relatability part of it, you know,
I think it's it's tricky when you haven't experience an
environment to speak to it. And with other sports you
can watch you can see. I can see a football
player moving on a field, I can see a tennis player,
(35:57):
you know, and practice a car, you're isolated too, like
you're sitting in this machine. At best, you see someone's head,
you know, poking out somewhere and you're seeing this machine
move about a track, and it's it's a hard thing
to relate to if someone hasn't experienced that, you know,
the different there's a lot of different elements you're dealing
(36:21):
with in there that it's even hard to articulate to
someone outside of that environment.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
And I guess like back in the day, there was
really no practicing or practicing was testing, which is really expensive,
whereas you could go throw a football around or a
basketball or baseball or whatever it may be. But now
you have simulated, so now like sims have kind of
changed the game because you can still be putting what
you're thinking about into practice in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
How much do you think sims translate into real life driving.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
I think it's about all about how you conceptualize it,
you know. I think that if someone doesn't want to
conceptualize it into the real world, then it's not going
to translate at all. And if someone wants to deeply
conceptualize and figure out what types of you know, sensory
(37:17):
feedback can can cross over, then they're going to get
a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Out of it. When you drive the sim does it translate.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
I think a lot. I think a lot because I
think I'm a I conceptualize a lot of things. I
think I live my day in conceptualization. You know, I
can go for a walk down the sidewalk and I
can hit a corner and I'm like, oh, hit that corner.
Good hit that apex, And I like walking crosses over
to something if I wanted to. And so the sims
(37:47):
are incredible. I mean, you didn't when I was younger,
and when you were younger, like we didn't have these tools,
and it's crazy. You jump on I Racing and you can.
We've got an F one car going over there today,
you know, something a little different and fun on a
street course. And it's like it's unbelievable that you can
jump in an F one car. So I remember the
(38:09):
first day. Scott Speed's a really good e racer now,
like I mean, like the best I've ever seen. I
remember the first time he ran I racing. He came
over to my house. This is about almost twenty years ago.
It comes over and I've got like a little desktop
set up and I'm like, hey, check out this this game,
(38:31):
this deal. You know, He's like, I've heard of that.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
I was like, it's just another video game. And I'm like, man,
I'm running a Formula One car and I forget where
I was where I was running it, but I'm running it.
He's like, oh, yeah, I've raced there, you know. I said, well,
jump on and just try it, like see. And he
got on and ran and he ran like three laps
and ran like a second faster night It right out
of the gate. And I'd been running on it for
(38:53):
like two days. And he got up and he was
real quiet, and I was like, that's incredible. I said,
you just ran faster Nighted And I've been practicing on
this saying thing for days. And he goes, I used
my same exact break markers and turning points that I
would have used in my life. And this is a
long time ago. Yeah, And so so to have access
(39:14):
to a tool like that, not to mention it's just fun,
you know, but to have access to it as a
tool and we can run We can run Pie, you
can run PI and Motech. You know. We can build
sectors and a track map for Sonoma, just like we
have for a real workbook at Sonoma. When the X
Men and Cupcast go there and so it's it's incredible
(39:35):
and to think, you know, to think that you wouldn't
use it as crazy. You know, we really try to
leverage the simulation stuff as much as possible.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Yeah, it's It's definitely helped me enormously this year, just
because a lot of the tracks I haven't been to,
so like just to learn has been really good. I
almost feel like I would have got more out of
it had I gone Post week as well and then
gone back and like Maine notes and like figured out
(40:05):
after I'd run the real car there too, as much
as learning the tracks.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
But you live, and I have a couple of questions
for you that I've Oh, yeah, maybe if you've been
asked these before on here, you you could say I've
already answered that. Go check this episode number. But what's
the best piece of advice you've ever gotten.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
I probably got lots of great advice when I was
younger and thought that I knew it all and didn't
take any of it into consideration. But I'm older and
wiser now. My dad, I'm very lucky. I think I'm
the product of my dad also spending time. I used
to think that he lectured me right, but after every
(40:43):
race like he would. I pretend I was asleep on
the way back from karting as well, because he would
over at me. He's a little bit like you, and
his mind is always analyzing everything and then it will
go down down the freet and you know, he'd be
like the eighty sixth brocket On turned t and I'm
like Jesus Christ dance. But I think it wasn't advice.
(41:08):
It was more like, hey, if you want this, then
you have to lead people into it. He said, if
you want to get up to if you want a race,
you're going to get up, and then you're going to
get me up. I am not going to be the
one who's waking you up in the morning to get
a race, because it's not my thing. It's your thing,
and it's going to be the same with everybody else.
If you want to drive for that team, you go
(41:28):
and talk to that team. If you want to get sponsor,
you going like nobody's going to do it for you.
You have to dig in and do the difficult things.
And when I was a kid, I was really shy
and I still don't love like introducing myself to new
people and everything else. But you get used to it,
but I think he instilled in me that like, if
it's something you want, then you have to do it
(41:50):
for you.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
I love that that seems pretty impactful for you because
you're like, you're going and getting it, and that's probably
a big part of that. Yeah, I should a big.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Boulder of a big hill, but that's awesome, lucky to
get that.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
And then what, what's the best race you've ever run
in your life? And walk me through it psychologically.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Hmmm.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
There don't have to be a whim. It could be like, man,
this thing was falling.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Apart, and I was like, sometimes.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Yeah, those are good ones.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Sometimes they're the ones where you finished like twelve and yeah,
yeah I was a hero because you didn't overdrive it,
but you drive it to the limit of the car
and you're like, I know, this is all that's gotten.
I've got to be disciplined about staying right here. I
had a lot of those races in Atlantics, and I
(42:45):
think that that was a factor of who I was
surrounded with. So I came over here and I was
isolated away from my family. I wasn't super young, I
was early twenties, but I was so hungry to race
and I landed with the best people possible. I raced
with Polestar and Jim and Pam Griffith, and I lived
(43:07):
with them in Shardan, Ohio. And so from the moment
I got up in the morning until the moment I
went to bed, like Jim was teaching me about diffs
and uprights and suspension and like how the clutch worked,
and I was like, well, how does that work, how
does that damp work, what's the blow of file do?
What's the third spring? You know? And so I was
(43:29):
kind of getting an education in it, and I was
loving every minute of it. And I just felt so
much support that every time I got in that race car,
I wasn't just doing it for me either. I was
doing it for them too, because they put so much
into it that I felt a responsibility to do that.
So like literally every Atlantic race when you said that
(43:53):
you were really aggressive and you made the most out
of it when you were sprint car racing, That's how
I felt in Atlantics, because I was like, there's no
way this guy's beating me. And I'd stick it down
the inside and there was just like it was a
whole different Catherine, and I think that that goes to
show that the team that you're with and the environment
that you're in affects you massively, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
For sure. Yeah, the people you're surrounded by are so critical.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
One hundred. I've driven for some really good teams and
I've driven for some bad teams. And I think one
of the best teams I ever drove for was MSR
Mike Shank and Mike Micro managed everything right, but he
made sure every single thing was perfect and everybody was
held accountable and his work ethic was impeccable, and so
(44:42):
I had the same kind of experience there as well.
It was almost I told him it's like daddy issues
because I wanted to make him happy, right, I wanted
him to go, Yes, you've done a really good job, Catherine.
So in a way, I think you hold yourself to
the standard of the people around you and what they're
holding themselves to as well. Sure, and it's easy to
make excuses if you're not driving for a great team
(45:03):
because like, oh the college yet even if you did
a good job, But if you're driving for one of
the top teams, then it's harder to hide behind all that.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yeah. Absolutely, the network of people, especially as a driver
you have around you, I think is so critical because
it can be pretty lonely. Right, It's hard to you know,
describe that how lonely it can feel. As a race
car driver, it's a unique form of being an athlete
and being you know, watched and held accountable for the
(45:37):
performance of something that a lot of people are interacting with. Yeah, yeah,
not even just your competitors, but your team as well,
and so it can feel like a very lonely journey
at times, you know. So it's great when you have
good people around you like that.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
And you sacrifice everything else in your life for that thing,
you know, other relationships and how having a normal life
and everything else. But I mean, I've been doing it
for a long, long long time now and I'm still learning.
Like even now, I've got people who don't call me directly.
They'll call like my sponsor or whoever else and talk
(46:15):
to them because it's still a little bit of a
boys club, and I'm like, I want to be taken seriously,
like talk to me. I'm the one doing the deal,
Like let's go, let's just talk to me on it.
And so I'm still finding these roadblocks. And somebody said
to me the other day when I was at a
conference for Droplight, one of my main sponsors, they said
somebody had told them in the inn car paddock that
I was difficult to deal with. I'm like difficult. I
(46:38):
don't think that I'm difficult. But then it got me thinking, okay,
as a woman, like if you're hard, then you're a bitch.
If you're a bloke and you're driving a race car,
then you just like dedicated and you know what you want.
But if you're a girl and doing it, then you
get labeled something completely different. And I was thinking, I
don't think I'm difficult. I just I want what I want.
(47:00):
And sometimes when I come across I've learnt behavior from
watching the other guys do it right, because I always
used to look at like Jensen Bomber was a great example,
like how would he act or how would aj Omaninger
act on the radio when he was my teammate, And
so I would always try and like model myself and
be as unemotional because women tend to be more emotional.
(47:24):
I would try and be like as robotic as humanly possible,
and so I didn't get labeled things like that. But
then even still now like if I was a bloke
saying no, I think it's this, I think you're wrong,
then they'd be like, Okay, we'll look into it. But yeah,
taken taken differently. So I'm still trying to learn and navigate,
(47:47):
and I really want to because I really want to
make a difference for the next generation. You know. I
see that they have this opportunity in front of them
where they can be different and they can be special,
and then, you know, maybe we will have a woman
in F one one day. I don't believe it's going
to be from the F one Academy, for sure. I
think it's going to be from doing this sure because
(48:09):
of the way that they're challenged at the highest level
rather than being limited in a woman only group. And
so if I can figure it out, then I can
be of more assistance as well. Even though it might
be a bit late for me to be the next
few month Formula one driver, it will it would be,
(48:29):
It would be good. But times are changing, things are changing,
and so I appreciate you challenging me to be better
for them because it's helping me too. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah, yeah, I love it. I mean I think you've
you know, talk about the maybe psychological barriers of it all.
I mean, you've pushed those out right, which are you know,
along with another just small group of women in motorsports,
right that have shown what's possible, and I think there's
still a limitless attention for what can be done motorsports.
(49:03):
For for a young female.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Athlete having daughters, have you noticed a difference in the
way that a you treat them as opposed to like
how you were treated when you were a kid, Like
I bet you're way more boisterous and stuff like that.
And has it changed the way you think about how
we develop these young female drivers.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
It's a good question. I for for my dad was
way harder than on me than I am with my daughters,
for sure, you know. And yeah, and I don't, you know,
I don't, I don't know, I don't know what that
what that comes from, right, But I want to I
want to love on my daughters and be you know,
(49:48):
I'm probably I'm definitely more kind and patient than my
My dad would just say you're an idiot, you know,
And I don't. I don't think I've ever said had
some of my daughters, you know, And maybe parenting has
changed too, right, I think there's so it's hard to
answer because there's generational things. There's I'm not intentional about
(50:10):
trying to treat my daughters, you know, different when it
comes to accountability and discipline and the core principles that
I want to instill in them. I guess I would say.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
That did they have any interest in playing with cars
as opposed to playing with Bobby?
Speaker 2 (50:30):
They really didn't. They they both had very brief glances
at cars and karting, but but they didn't. They didn't
come to many of my races when I was driving,
you know, I was kind of I was just doing that,
and and they were they were at home doing school
and and and so, so they haven't been deeply immersed
(50:51):
in motorsports either. They just know motorsports is really even
when I was a driver, motorsports just what I do
for my job, you know. And so they're on a say,
probably more interested in what I do now than what
I did as a driver.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
You know.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
My oldest daughter told me the other day she wanted
to be a psychologist and help people, which was interesting.
I'm like, well, that's that's cool, you know, like you'll
I think you'll enjoy that and so so yeah, we
never had any real real interest in racing, which I
have to tell you, I'm I'm happy in a way,
and I think you.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Was going to save you money. Well it's just.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
Like it's that. But also I mean, you live this
journey and I think you'll this will resonate and there
is a massive cost to be paid to be great
at this and to make it to the highest levels.
And so if I'm being honest, I wouldn't wish it
on anyone. You know, you you have to give up
your life. I give up my life. I think you
(51:46):
did too. And so I didn't go to social events
in high school. I didn't have friends. I got my
race cards ready. I race. I I it was what
I had, and I sacrificed my life to be a
race car driver. It was great. Our life was racing.
And so I just I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
If someone wants it, If my daughters wanted it, I
(52:07):
would have supported them. But in no way is it
my would it be some sort of imposed desire or
even or even something that I would hope they would desire.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
To be honest with you, golf clubs or tennis reckets,
or something else. Yeah. Anyway, I will not keep you
any longer, but I really appreciate your time and as always,
the super interesting conversations, and I am looking forward to
doing lots of good work with you in the future.
(52:39):
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it as well. Thank you,
thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
Thanks for listening to Throttle Therapy. We'll be back next
week with more updates and more overtakes. We want to
hear from you. Leave us a review in Apple Podcasts
and tell us what you want to talk about. It
might just be the topic for our next show. Throttle
Therapy is hosted by Katherine Legg. Our executive producer is
Jesse Katz, and our supervising producer is Grace Fuse. Listen
(53:09):
to Throttle Therapy on America's number one podcast network, iHeart,
open your free iHeart app and search throttle Therapy with
Katherine Legg and start listening.
Host
Katherine Legge
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