Logan Pauslen talks Defensive Tackles and who could fit with the Commanders after they recently released Jonathan Allen. Then, he breaks down his Top 10 DTs in this years NFL Draft class. Plus, is the hype around Mason Graham real or does his measurables at the Combine raise doubts? Finally, hear the names that Logan is shocked the national media has yet to mention.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
In today's episode, It Took It to the Draft Podcast,
we talk about what makes a great defensive tackle, and
then it's a draft show, so we ranked the top
ten defensive tackles. We got run stoppers, we got pass rushers,
and we got guys that can do it all. And
then we got a section four of the nerds for
you diehard. You just want the names, man, give me
the names. It all starts right now. Welcome into It
(00:24):
Took a Draft Podcast. I'm Logan Paulson here with just
the guy, Jason and Jason.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
The long awaited.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Defensive tackle review is here. We got a little sidetracked
there at the Combine kind of reviewing each of those days,
but we're back. We're here to talk about defensive tackles
and this class is I think very interesting to me.
It's like I think, after watching them and going through
all their film and going through all their highlight reels,
it's just it's different than what I expected. So I'm
excited to talk about a little bit.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
I wonder if this class is more of a microcosmo
with the draft as a whole, is do you look
at the tackle class. It's very deep, but maybe not
super top heavy, but you're gonna get a lot of
good players here, Like you did a list of twenty
that you sent me, which is that's just how many
guys you watch, because it's like, that's just how many
names are out there, right, So yeah, that feels like
(01:11):
how the draft is kind of shaping out. Not a
whole lot at the top, but very very deep as
far as talent throughout the draft.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
And we'll talk about the top of this group specifically.
But I had a really hard time with some of
the guys that are considered like quote unquote like top
guys in the class. When I watched the film, I
just I understand what people are looking at. But I
found him It wasn't like sometimes when you watch, like
when you watch out Do a Carter for example, you're like,
this dude is a knockout, you know, Grand Slam, home
(01:38):
run Chipper, Yeah, blue Chipper, Right. And I didn't feel
that way about the defensive tackles necessarily at the very
very top. However, there were some guys later that I
was like absolutely in love with, So I do think
it again, maybe you're right, it speaks to kind of
a weak top for a lot of the positions in
this class. But I think the middle portion of this
draft is very, very unique and very diverse in a
(02:01):
way specifically for this position that I wasn't expecting.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah, I want to I want to push back. I
want to say week I would just because I think
with last year's draft, we were so overwhelmed with blue
chip talent at the top that this feels it just
kind of feels like a normal draft week.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
It's not the right word, but it's just like, you know,
I'm not sure that there's a blue chip guy.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Yeah, there's just nobody that's heads and shoulders above somebody else.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I think, which is probably goes against what most national
media is saying.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I think it's oh well, I want to get into
it then, but before we get into your top ten,
and then of course at the end, we'll have for
the nerds just extra names of keeping ear out for.
I want to do the thing we always do, and
that's what do you look for in a defensive tackle?
And we're going to go through some terms that you're
going to use when describing them here, just so our
listeners kind of understand what you mean when you say
(02:50):
something like, oh, he stacks of blocks, So what do
you look for in a defensive tackle as an evaluator.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
So, yeah, this one's tough because it's a little bit
different than what you look for with other positions. Obviously
there's like an athletic trait, but I will say, like
athleticism for defensive linemen is different like offensive lineman.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I think athleticism.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Means what you think it means, like how you move
in space, like how you track stuff down, like how
you can kickstep, how you and then receivers athleticism that's
intuitive for defensive tackles. Obviously you want good athletes, but
to me, it's really driven by explosiveness. Explosiveness and power,
I would say, right, so like when you know, like
(03:29):
someone can burst off the ball and put their hands
on an offensive lineman and really shock them back and
control a gap, and then how quickly can I react
and kind of throw that guy down and penetrate up
the field. Like all of those things kind of combine
to inform a very specific type of defensive tackle athleticism,
which is.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
A little bit different.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
It's a little bit animalistic almost compared to other positions.
It's just like you're a raw beast of a man,
like you think about Aaron Donald, Like again, like he's
he's a tremendous athlete, but there's this explosives. You know,
he benches five hundred pounds. These you can see tackles
and offensive linemen surprised, guards surprised by when like his
hands are on him, the strength that he has, how
he moves, He's just constantly moving forward, challenging you. And
(04:12):
I think that's what makes a really good defensive tackle
is someone who can fight off two people at once,
can penetrate, can run down line of scrimmage, and it's
just very instinctive with how they move. And so that's
where that explosive kind of reactive strength becomes so important.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Yeah, and it's hard, I think sometimes to look at
stats and evaluate a defensive tackle. With edge you have sacks.
Sometimes with DT you have sacks as well, But defensive tackles,
unless you're like devoted to pass rushing, it is tough
to be like, oh, well, how do you like is
it tackles? Like how do you evaluate a defensive tackles statistically?
(04:48):
Or maybe you can't, right.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
So it's to me, it's more like I think pressure
rate is a really good way, and I think disruption
so like a lot of people say, oh, tackles for loss, pressures,
pressures are they kind of they work, that works as
a good metric, but how disruptive they are and so
like they're not going to get a lot of tackles
or TFLs for that. But are you augmenting the back's path?
Are you forcing the back to make a cut? Are
(05:10):
you forcing the quarterback to step up or move in
the pocket? Like that's really what you're just like what
you're judging on. And there's guys where you know, you'd
watch them and you're like you're waiting for some semblance
of their ability to disrupt something to come up, and
you know they're just getting stuck on blocks. They can't
run down line of scrimmage, they're not good with their hands,
you know.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And I think all that stuff is.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
That that's where again, from a good player to a
great player, it's really I mean, getting down to the
kernel of It's it's the disruption, their ability to disrupt
the play and kind of they're not going to get
a tackle or a stat necessarily for it. But like
splitting a double team, the back's got to bounce right,
the linebacker can outrunning the football, right, those types of things,
(05:54):
and maybe we should maybe we should have come up
with a metric for it, you know, like that we
could kind of have quantified, like how many disrup options
is this guy of in a game? Because I really
think that would be a very honestly a good way
to kind of track a defensive tackles production.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Is just eating double teams in and of itself. Something
that's important too, because not every player gets doubled, right
if you go in, you go, oh, well, we have
to double team this guy or he's going to be disruptive,
Like you said, is that a net positive as well?
So I think looking for a little.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
More Yeah, I think eating a double team is a
little bit of a misnomer. I don't think you're going
to find people who just eat double teams. I think
you see guys that play double teams well, and what
they're doing is they're actually splitting a double team, right.
They're they're forcing the offensive line into kind of bad
technique because of their technique. Right, they're kind of you know,
(06:42):
like they're the three technique is got hands on the guard,
the center's coming to block them, their ability to get
their hip in that gap, up the field, throw that
guard down, kind of penetrate that gap. And again, so
there's nobody getting to the linebacker. They're not they're winning
the line of scrimmage. They're owning their gap. Like, those
are the that I think. And when you see a
guy like there's a couple guys we're going to talk
(07:03):
about later that are true space eating players, like big players,
huge mammoth players. But the thing that really I find
very frustrating is when you watch those guys, they don't
hold they don't hold the spot, they don't hold the point.
So when you're eating a eating a double team quote unquote,
is you're destroying the double team. You're penetrating the double team.
You're not just sitting there. Because I'll tell you, I
(07:23):
don't care how strong you are, you could be Jordan Davis, right.
You know, one of the biggest, most athletic defensive tackles. Ever,
he doesn't do a great job of defeating double team.
So he'll get moved off the spot just because two
guys are stronger than one. You know, there's more friction force,
there's more power, like and so it's very rare. Like
the guy that maybe comes to mind is like Ted Washington,
who's like four fifteen, like just these mammoth kind of
(07:43):
cartoonishly huge people. But to me, it's not there is
value there, but it's I think the value again comes
in their ability to disrupt the double team.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I'm gonna come back to that where the disruption of
the play.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Yeah, I think that sometimes will here debate that goes on,
whether it's through fans or national commentators will be like, oh,
well he didn't as a defensive tackle, he didn't have
an impact on the game, and the argument against will
be like, well, yeah, it was doubled all day. Yeah,
and that's good because that frees something up. It's like, okay,
but a defensive tackle, they're going to be doubled. That's
(08:15):
just just the nature of it. So how disruptive are
you when you're getting the double team? Makes you an
elite player?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, And I think, like going back to Aaron Donald
or Chris Jones, like they get double teamed, like you said,
almost every play, but they're never content with being blocked.
They always find a way to split and disrupt and
upset the kind of pattern and rhythm of the offensive
players footwork and they're timing and that to me, is
what makes a really good disruptive defensive player.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
All right, So off of that, I have a couple
of term clarifications. So if you say this guy is
heavy hands, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yeah, so I think heavy hands.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
It's kind of like imagine if their hands were made
of bricks and I threw my hands on your chest
and you just saw the life kind of snap out
of that person's body.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Like that's kind of what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
It's more like there's some great examples of people with
extremely heavy hands in this class where they put them
on people and the offensive player just stops. There's no movement,
it's just done, and they can hold space. And then
once those hands are on you, their ability to be
strong with that and like grip them up and then
like throw that person in the ground or pull themselves through.
(09:19):
Like heavy hands is a huge thing for defense, I
mean defensive linemen in general, but specifically for defensive tackles.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
And what is stacking blocks? Like, all this player's great
at stacking blocks? What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So, like we just talked about on a double team,
you know like kind of you know, posting that guard,
penetrating with that center. So like let's say, let's say
I throw that guard down. I'm the three technique. I
throw the guard down, and the center just kind of
pushes me lateral down the line of scrimmage.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Even though I'm in my gap.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
I am creating a seam off the center's butt where
the back and cut. So ideally you'd want to throw
that guard down, get vertical stack that center's block so
that there's no widening of the hole. That's done right.
I am in the game A. I've penetrated beyond you.
You can't push me any wider, and now I have
the opportunity to make the tackle.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Be disruptive there's a word.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Again we're talking about, and make a tack and force
the running back to change his course.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I can do that.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
There are some guys in this class that are very special.
They can hold that. They can shed then hold the
point and they're holding it. They're not stacking the block,
but they're kind of locking the block out and keeping
building a wall right there. They're really special ones, in
my opinion, can stack, shed, get to the next level
and end up making a play on the bed.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
And as you're saying shed, what is like shedding it?
It seems like a shed tackler kind of seems like
self explanatory, is it? So?
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, shedding like so basically imagine you're trying to block
somebody and then they the defender says, you're not going
to block me. So I'm going to get to nice
long arms, I'm going to pull you through, I'm gonna
pull rip, I'm going to do whatever I need to
do to just defeat that block. Block destruction, I think
is another way to kind of talk about shedding, right,
your ability to take the block, digest what they're trying
(10:57):
to do, and then defeat what they're trying to do
and then make a place. Yeah, there's a bunch of
different ways people do that. Some people play over the top,
some people get vertical, some people lock out and pull through. Like,
there's a bunch of different ways. But that's the way
I kind of cluster that shed it. It's not shedding
the tackler shitting the blocker.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
I would say, yeah, Actually, that's one of I think
the more fun things that I like watching with the
attackers is that when they're really good at it, you
see it, get the heavy hands on them and you
can see the tackle is dissecting what the play is. Oh,
this is a run play, so I'm going to see
where this running back is going to go. Is you're
going to go to this gap or this gap, and
then once that's done, immediately sheds it makes a tackle one.
(11:34):
When you see that, it looks beautiful.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
It looks great, and I think there's a there's a
there's levels to it. There's the guys that are that
feel the block, read through the backfield, and then make
the play. And then there's guys that just have this
feel for like, hey, I'm getting a down block. It's power,
this is where the ball is going, and the reactions
are so quick and so explosive and so dynamic. So
I think that's where when you see that at a
(11:57):
high level, it's it's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
All right. The next thing I want to talk about
is when you talk about being twitchy, explosive, short area quickness,
all these things that we've used where like running backs
and wide receivers and corners and like that feels like
it makes more sense there. But when you're talking about
a three hundred and fifteen pound guy, how is he twitchy?
Is it a little bit different?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
It's a little bit different, but obviously, like the elite
ones are elite, you know, Like a good example of
this is like Jordan Phillips, So he's really explosively anticipates
that he's from Maryland. He anticipates the snap count really well.
And then his ability to get to where he's got
to be and then be it like have a blocker
engage and then explode snap through his hips and force
(12:38):
that offensive lineman to kind of buckle back under the
pressure that he's providing. Is a is a special trade.
So it's the movement skills obviously, but it's also their
ability to like it's twitching. It's a twitchingness with a power,
is the way I'm going to describe it, right, So,
like it kind of goes back to the heavy hands thing,
like when I get off the ball and I extend
my hands, it's happening very quickly, but it's also very
(12:59):
powerful a power punch in boxing almost, And that's where
I think the twitchiness is maybe slightly different for a
defensive tackle than even for a defensive end.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
All right, let's get right into it, Logan. Let's get
your top ten defensive tackles in this year's draft class.
Start at number ten for me.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, so number ten is Tylee Williams from Ohio State,
And he was not really on my radar prior to
the combine. I know he was probably on a lot
of national media members list, but like he's a little
over six to one we in at three hundred and
thirty four pounds, is a big, kind of bowling ball
type guy. He's only got thirty two inch arms, but
at the combine move really well. Just a great athlete
(13:36):
for being that big, and when you watch the film
of him, he's got some of the stuff we're talking
about here. His ability to get hands on you diagnose
his ability to diagnose runs is really elite, right, so
he'll you know, get this down block and instead of
like fighting with the guy, he just kind of throws
him by and plays back and is able to fill
the gap as the guards pulling and get it on
(13:56):
the play, which is which is great. I just think
he's got an elite super power versus the run. He's
never going to be a super dynamic pass rusher. He
does have a little bit of kind of hand fighting
ability where hold knock your hands down and kind of
work to an edge, and he's got great short air
quickness for a man that size, but he's never going
to really threaten an offensive lineman the way some of
these other guys on the list star. But his superpower
(14:17):
is is versus the run, and he's got these nice
low hips so when people try to double team, I mean,
even if he doesn't split or defeat the double team,
he can hold the point really well. Again, not the
longest guy in the world, so he's never going to
be like this great pass rusher, but man like he
is a he is special in that regard. So I think,
you know, maybe he's not going to be a true
died in the wole three down player, but I think
(14:39):
he's a guy that if you're having a hard time
stop in the run, he can come in on first
a second down and make you a whole lot better,
not only because of the physical body type, but because
he just seems to have tremendous awareness for offensive run
schemes and how to defeat what they're trying to do
to him.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Well, let me ask you a question there, because I
wrote down kind of my jag guys were seeing what
you're talking about, right, It shows up very easy, like
very clearly to anybody watching this guy is a monster
in the run game. And he definitely has that like
block and shed like that beautiful that we were.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Just like extension.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Oh it looks so nice and he's big and powerful.
When I watched him, I went, you know what, I
think he's just like a little inconsistent with maybe the
pass rush, but he looks like he has the athletic
ability to potentially unlock that.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
So I don't disagree with that assessment because, like I said,
he does flash like a good feel for like a
nice little wiper or a little kind of cross shop,
and he's got a good timing with his feet, good hands.
I think the thing that hurts him is he's not
super bursty. Okay, so what you see was with the
offensive lineman is like he does this really nice move
and then they just kick one more time in the
(15:50):
right in front of him, and that's kind of always
who he's going to be, right.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I think the other thing too, is he doesn't.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Have the longest arm, so like in play action pass
situations out but they're grabbing him on the jersey and
he can't shed that very well because the lack of
length gotcha. So do I think he's Do I think
the thing you just said is one hundred percent true. Yes,
I just think his ceiling in that area is going
to be a little bit lower than some other guys
on this list. And honestly, why those other guys on
the list are higher, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Well, that's why I'm just a guy because I didn't
think in the consideration what you're just talking about, especially
with like your arm length, because I look at him
and I'm like, oh my gosh, if this is a
third or fourth rounder, he could be a steal if
someone can unlock the pass rush because he is just
dominant in the run.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
And I think the great thing for him too is,
like you said, like we talked about the combine, he
moves very well. I don't have his forty time right
in front of me. I think it's on the dock
if you don't look it up, Jason, But he just.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Moves really well.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
He's got good bend, and so do I think he
could be a first and second down player that from
the door is helping your team. And then give you
give it two or three years, and he adds, maybe
he's never going to be a ten sack guy, never
an eight sat guy. But maybe he's a guy that
wants five sacks, six sacks, and that's very valuable for
a player that comes in and adds so much value
(17:03):
as a run stopper.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
All right, So Taaleque Williams from Ohio State is forty.
He didn't run it at the combine. What I found
here was his last clock forty was a four to
six eight. Who knows when that was run. It does
say here that's ninety ninth percentile for it, So it's probably.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
He's kind of he's he's had a few biscuits since then,
I think. But yeah, again like that, it wouldn't surprise
me if at his size he ran a five ish
flat forty because he does move well, he bends well.
I was really in terms of on field stuff at
the combine. I was really impressed with him, and it
shows up on film.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
All right. So number nine you have.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Jared Harrison Junte from SMU. He's six three and a half.
He's I think he's two hundred and ninety pounds thirty
three inch arms. He ran a four to eight seven
at the Combine and so I kind of turned him
on just because he tested so well, just to see
what it looked like. And he basically plays a four
I sometimes a three technique sometimes knows and he is
(18:02):
athletically as build. And I think one of the things
that was really surprising to me is if you watch
the Clemson game, specifically, his ability to engage blockers, shed them,
and then have the burst and the quickness to get
up the field and penetrate in the backfield and affect
the quarterback was just incredibly impressive and so kind of
compiling the length, the height, the speed, the athleticism, the
(18:25):
natural playmaking instinct. Like we just talked about with Tyler Williams,
his ability to kind of anticipate it's his Junte's ability
to anticipate those blocks is not the same level, but
his quickness and his length helps him overcome that. He's
a little bit taller, a little bit linear, you know,
kind of not super wide in the hips, but he
(18:45):
makes up for it because he's such a tremendous like
he's got tremendous burst and get off and really flashed
in a way that I was not expecting when I
started watching this film.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, he started all fourteen games for SMU and at
a career high for tackles with forty two eighteen of
them where solo six and a half sacks, one little interception,
A nice little thing for.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Him there on a screen.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Maeah, and he's was at the East fresh Trimble. Is
that right?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I think so?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah, And he's an All ACC first team so no slacker.
I didn't watch him yet.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
No, I mean he was a guy. Honestly.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I was just going through the combined numbers and was like,
let's take a look at this guy and see what happens.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
And I was really watching.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I think his name is Elijah Roberts, the defensive end
from SMU, And then this guy just kept popping up
on tape and I was like, I'm gonna just watch
this guy, see what happens.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
And that's what's fun about doing this with you. I
haven't seen his name pop up in many places. And
then when you sent me your list, I was like,
oh my gosh, I didn't watch him because I watched
about I think it was like fifteen guys that are
generally what the national media says, and you have some
guys on here that were not in there. So I'm
excited to go back and rewatch it, especially after looking
up his bio and he had a bawler season his
(19:53):
last year. All right, so number eight is our first
on the list from Oregon.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, Jamiriy Caldwell.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
And he has maybe been my most fun player to
watch throughout the preseason process. I mean, he absolutely just
flashed at the Senior Bowl, And I think flash is
the right word for him, because you wouldn't expect a
guy who's six one and a half and three point
thirty four to move and bend and kind of have
(20:20):
the natural body lean of someone like this, Like he
is special man. His ability to defeat blocks, penetrate, run
to the football, have a little bit of pass thrush
juice right, was just incredibly impressive. You watch in versus
Ohio State, like he's damn near unblockable at times, and
so like maybe I was thinking about this through like
a commander's focused lens, but I was like, if you
(20:43):
got him in here, he just raises the value of
your run stopping defense immediately. And he's got the ability
to penetrate if you want that to be part of
your defensive identity. At that body size and at that weight,
he doesn't have the longest arms in the world, but man,
he's got a great feel for that stuff. Like he
just he's one of my favorite players. Like he ran
well at the comment he ran a five to one four,
(21:04):
Like really just tested off the charts, bends well, moves
well as a tremendous athlete for his size, and then
couple that with the feel and the natural playmaking instincts.
He's never going to be a super juiced up pass rusher.
But the reason he's higher on the list than Junta
and Williams is because he's a better pass rusher than Williams.
And he's way more consistent down to down as a
playmaker than Harrison Nute from SMU. So that's why he's
(21:27):
a number eight on my list.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah, he's gotten really nice hands, I thought, very active,
and he seems like he just eats up space. So
like he's the length rate isn't there, Yeah, but like
he still fills up very well. Like he's thick.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
He's a funny guy because he's short, he's short stout,
But I mean he just like sometimes you just talk
about making plays like he just does it and he
has a great feel for it and it's something that
really just jumps out on film. You're like, man, like
this guy is really really impressive. Yeah, like it's again
like it just watch watch any Oregon game and both
(22:02):
their defensive tackles are absolute maniacs. But he is a
playmaker at that body weight. And you know, we talked
about the ability to like the stack blocks up, so
use my length, use my limit arm like lock blocks
out play black across blocks, penetrate like it's all there
for him, man. And you know the fact that this
guy's number eight on my list, I think speaks to
(22:23):
how talented the rest of this class is.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Quite honestly, all right, let's move on's who's your number
seven now?
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Darius Alexander from Toledo. I think everyone's probably heard him.
He was at the Senior Bowl, He's at the Combine,
tested really well, had a decent Senior Bowl game.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
The reason he's lower.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
On my list than I think a lot of people
in the national media is because, you know, I'm watching
him play small schools he sees from Toledo, and he
really just relies on being bigger and longer than everybody.
Like he's not a super refined mover. His techniques not great.
He's just the biggest, baddest dude on the field. Kind
(23:02):
of like Mike Green a little bit from Marshall, Like
that's kind of the vibe I got from him. And
so at the Senior Bowl, everyone was talking about how
good he was and he had a great week, but
it wasn't as dominant as it was when he was
at Toledo, And so I'm kind of saying, like this move.
He has this really nice long arm move that he
is in college where he absolutely fork lifts people back
(23:23):
in the quarterback and I'm like, that's not going to
play against NFL offensive lineman. You're gonna have to grow
and learn. And he's twenty six years old, so he'll
be twenty seven when he gets drafted, So he's an
old prospect with not a lot of refinement to his game.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
So I'm kind of like, how much time do you have.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Really to work with this guy and get him better Again,
he's tremendously athletic, he's huge, he's got awesome length.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
So is that what you're betting on then? Because you
have these hesitations? But he's also seventies in a deep class,
So it's it's the size, it's.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
The other stuff.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
You're kind of saying, like, he'll get with better guys,
the competition will be better, But like he's there's they
don't find many people that look and it's look is
one thing, but movement is the other thing too. Like
he's just a big athlete, and you know, there's some
big dudes on this list, a big dudes on the
twenty guys that I watched, But holy cow, man, he
(24:15):
just he just flies around and he's physical, he's violent,
he makes a lot of plays. He's got natural bend.
I think that was the other thing. You know, there's
a guy we're going to talk about in our in
our kind of what do they call the extras, Yeah,
the ones for the nerds that are that is very
similar to this player. But his ben and his just
general movement competency. I was just like, man, someone's going
(24:36):
to take a flyer in this guy, and I would
totally understand why.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
So at number six is a guy that I wrote
down he's a freak athlete who's just a big, bad man,
and that is.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
H Kenneth Kenneth Grant from Michigan. And I think a
lot of people will be surprised to see him here
at this juncture at six. I think a lot of
people will have him at two and if you and
I don't have any issue with you having of it too,
because I actually you understand completely, Like he's a freaky
human being. He's gigantic, he's long, he moves well from
(25:09):
being three hundred threty four pounds, he moves great.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
He's strong too, Yeah, I wrote down snow plow path.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, he's very strong. I think the thing that, like,
you know, we talked about with Williams. We talked about
it with Caldwell from Oregon, Williams from my house state
is a technical understanding of the run game and like
where to play, how to play a box, where my
hand should be, how do I shed when I'm getting
certain combinations, like where I need to now fit and fill?
(25:35):
And I didn't get that same sense of urgency from
Keith Grant from Kenneth Grant, and I didn't get the
same kind of awareness. And I also got a little
bit of like laziness or lackadaisicalness from him as a
guy that I was like again, like I like the power,
I like the movement skills, I like the length. But
sometimes he's standing tree top tall and he gets thrown
(25:58):
out of the club and I'm like, for a guy
who is going to be a top twenty pick in
the draft, like I think these other guys are playing
with more consistency in college. Now, I understand you're betting
on the frame, you're betting on the athlete. He does
flash man Like there was a play versus I want
to say Minnesota where he like runs down a screen
and he's you know, he's three hundred and thirty five pounds.
(26:19):
You're just like, holy cow, Like where did that come from?
So there is that, but he reminds me a little
bit of like Jordan Davis, and Jordan Davis isn't a
bad comp because you know, Jordan Davis went top I
was the eleventh pick or tenth pick in the draft.
The thing that I keep coming back to is that
Jordan Davis only plays about a third of the snaps
for Philadelphia. So if he's going to do that for you, like,
(26:40):
has he shown enough pass rush upside? Has he shown
enough general athleticism technical mastery to warrant being a top
twenty pick or a top twenty five pick. And I
just was a little bit dubious because I again, like
I think Williams and Caldwell do a.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Better job of that. Now they're not the athlete, not
the specimen that guy is. But that's why he's six.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
In my list. Okay, So I want you to tell me,
So this is just what I saw, and I want
you to tell me what I'm missing. So you said
the word like laziness a little bit in there, or
like it's just a little slow maybe at times, like
I don't. What it looked like to me is that
he has a very surprising burst for as big as
(27:26):
he is, Like when ione's like whoa, he knows when
to turn that one and when to turn it off.
It looks like and he can move laterally really really
well for being as big as he is. And that's
kind of what stood out to me. I did see,
like I wrote down here in his cons can get
caught fighting block sometimes and just gets kind of stuck there.
(27:48):
But there are times where he gets stuck there and
it's like, I'm fine with it because it looks like
you're not going to have an impact on this play.
It's already passed where you need to be. There are
other times where it's like he's kind of stuck there.
The plays developing in front of him and then just boom,
explosive burst right out there. So I see what you're saying. Yeah,
But like what am I missing because I feel, I
(28:09):
don't know, there's something about him. I don't see laziness.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
So it's a maybe a lack of urgency. I think
it's the word I'm going to say. Like there's times
where I see him kind of like he's got a
hand on a block and he's just kind of looking
through and he seems to be content staying blocked. And
I've heard that that's not from I saw that, but
I've also heard that from Scouts and other people I've
talked to, And so that's where I just kind of
(28:33):
I couldn't settle in on it because there's other guys
on this list that we're going to talk about here
in a second that I think fill similar roles to him,
that I think play with tremendous urgency, tremendous awareness, and
I just don't didn't see it, you know, Like when
you like mel Kiper, I think is that it best?
It's like for being as big and as athletic as
he is, Like I want more, I expect more, Like
(28:53):
you know, Calledwell, I'm going to go back to him,
Like when you turn on the film, he is fighting
for his life on every play to split, to stack,
to penetrate, and he makes plays and he's very disruptive constantly.
I feel like our guy, Kenneth Grant again, he's higher
than called bole because he's a freak, right, He's a
physical freak. Is just there that's not there. And with
(29:16):
big dudes like that, that's something that I've seen a
lot of big dudes get drafted. I've played with a
lot of big dudes like that of the course of
my career, and they, for whatever reason, never turn it on.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
And I don't understand why.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
And again, like, why would I risk not getting what
I want out of him or not getting what I
think I can get out of him when there's five
or six other dudes in this draft that will absolutely
die on the field for you.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
And I think that's where I come down on it.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
And I think you're also like some And sometimes when
I'm watching this, I don't have the same mindset that
you do because I get lost in like, this is
not who they're going to be, right, this is just
this is still multiple clue. So when I obviously, as
you pick higher up. You want to mitigate risk, as
you said, so you want to see more so it's
(30:02):
less of like a work in progress. But all of
these guys are going to improve in some way or another.
And if this is one that's harder for you to say,
I don't know if it will improve no matter what.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
I think I put on there, that's on the sheet
I think I put like, interview is going to be
a big deal for him, right because if he interviews
great and you feel confident, and he kind of answers
all the questions and he's a leader, and he's got
this charisma to him and he's got this work ethic
that I'm going to bet on that guy, right because
the traits are there, you know what I'm saying. But
the thing that I can't get past is like I've
(30:34):
seen so many guys like I go back to Jordan Davis.
This is the one that's closest in proximity to this
who has everything physically you want, everything you could possibly want,
but doesn't play like it all the time. And so
I want a dude who I'd rather take, the dude
who's a little bit less physically gifted, who's going to
pour it out for me, and I think that's where
I come down on it.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Gotcha. The next one is one of my favorites in here,
who's just an absolutely large human large, and that's Alfred
Collins from Texas.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I mean large is probably doing him a little bit
of a disservice because he was. He was the biggest
human at the combine. And so what that means is
like they measure wingspan, and was like, why the hell
do you measure wingspan? Wigspan is just body size, right.
If you have a big win wingspan, you have a
big chest, you've got long arms, you're just a big human.
So he was the largest of the defensive lineman. He
(31:28):
was eighty five inches, which is a crazy number. And
he's a huge man, Like he's super heavy. I want
to make sure I get his exact numbers here. So
he's six' five and five, eighths so bigger Than Kenneth.
Grant he's three hundred and thirty two. Pounds he weighed
heavier Than Kenneth. Grant he's got thirty four and five
inches five inches. Arms his arms are two inches longer
Than Kenneth grant his hand or ten inches his wingspan
(31:50):
we just talked, about and he plays harder Than Kenneth,
grant and so, like why this is kind of one
Where i'm, like he didn't run a, forty but like
he makes. Plays you're, like he's that big doing that
locking guys, out throwing them. Down he's got a little
spin move that he. Runs he's got a nice little
(32:11):
cross shop that he. Runs he's got like weird kind
of ballerina feet for a man who's that. Size he was, Like,
logan you're describing a guy should go top. Ten he
gases out in like ten plays like he is in bad.
Shape LIKE i don't know what his deal, Is like
he needs to go with a strength, coach get an
asmin hal or whatever it. Is he will show you
the best four plays you've ever seen and then be
off the field for ten and then come Back you're,
(32:32):
like oh my, god there's that guy again.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
And off the.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Field so whatever he's doing aerobically needs to. Improve but the,
length the heavy, hands the, size the foot, speed the,
athleticism the, instincts it's. There it's just you might only
get it for twenty snaps in a.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Game, Yeah and you know, what it's so funny BECAUSE
i wrote he is a point of attack dominator stack
and should black. Destroyer he is going to legitimately just
clog up get ap and he, is like you, said
he fights.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Man he is he's a. Grinder, yeah he's in.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
There he's a.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Grinder and then so THAT i was, like, well Maybe
i'm being hard on. Him but then we go to
the combine and they do the hoop drill and so
he has to put his hands on his. Knees after the,
hoop he walks back. Slowly guys are, running remember that.
Guy we're running past them to get in. Line he
gets in, Line he's got to move everybody out the,
way get to his. Spot like he's got a conditioning.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
AND i AND i wrote down that the tank is ON.
E and you, know like when you're driving the car
and you get. It my wife does this all the.
Time she never fills up the car with. Gas So i'm,
like all, Right i'm gonna go take the kids to
whatever they need to go. To AND i get in
the car AND i turn in the one and it's ONE.
E and it's not like it's past the point of
where it tells you how many. Miles it's just like
(33:47):
low and you're, like, well this could MEAN i have one,
mile it could MEAN i have ten. Miles, Right so
that's what he's like to, Me like he's gonna get
out there and he's gonna he's gonna. Go, oh but
who knows when the car is?
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Stalling, yeah who knows when the car is going to?
Stall and it's his film IS i was so. IMPRESSED
i was so he's so big and for him to
move the way he, does for him to do all
the things he just talked about with the physical violence
and the consistency he does it, WITH i was blown.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
AWAY i was blown. Away BUT i just was, like
you're how much are you gonna?
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Play and we have excellent strength and conditioning coaches With,
washington So i'm not really worried about.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
It they'll figure it out and figure it, out figure
it out.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Because like you, said he's a, grinder and as you
were saying earlier with one of the other, players like
there's something about when you're a. Grinder, yeah like your deficiencies,
here it's, more, uh you're willing to bet on them
because it's, like, well you got the workout THAT i
see it on the, field like YOU i don't need
to be, proved play, hard SO i know you're gonna
work hard to get. Better so maybe maybe conditioning is
(34:55):
always a. Problem but it looks like because he's such
a grinder in the, field like you, said he's gonna
he's gonna take a coach to heart and work on.
Something and again like hopefully he doesn't lose some of
what he has because of that. Too his size is
a big.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Plays AND i also think like at the, combine he
doesn't look like he's out of like he doesn't look like.
Bad he doesn't have a bad body really like like like,
Uh Dion, walker you know From kentucky bad body kind
Of oh what's going on? Here this guy's not. That
he just NEEDS i think someone to kind of push
him a little bit BECAUSE i think he could BE
i think he could be the when it's all said and,
DONE i think you could be the most special player
(35:30):
in the.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Strip and, moving, YEAH i don't. Disagree moving on the
number for the other defensive tackle From, Oregon.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Derek harmon From morgan AND I i wanted to put
him maybe as the number one. GUY i really. DID
i was, LIKE i really like what he. Does he
plays four, eye he plays, nose he plays stand up
end in certain situations At. Oregon he has tremendous arm.
Length he uses his length. Well he's got great, instincts
he's got great play. Strength he's got really above average.
(35:58):
Athleticism like he can and stunt and loop and. Move
AND i was all, set, MAN i was all set
to put him as the number one guy on the.
List but there's a little bit of hip stiffness that
so he can't bend and like get around the corner
and he'll make a nice move At and that's the other.
Thing he's not as polished as a pass rusher or some.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Of these other.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Guys so like he's got, this he's a. Freak he moves,
well he's got great, Length he plays hard all the.
Time he doesn't have The collins issue where he's a
little bit gassed. Out he can play sixty snaps if
you want him, to and he can do it at multiple.
Spots the thing THAT i just couldn't get over, is
like everyone is comparison comparing him To Christian. Jones he
(36:38):
doesn't bend Like Christian. Jones he doesn't have the hand
consistency in terms of past rush Of Christian. Jones so
he'll beat a guy and then to finish that, RUSH
i got to dip my, shoulder bend my hips and
get down there and turn that corner and make that.
Tackle he can't do that right, now and so that's
where there's a little bit of.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Reservation but in terms.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Of, prospect like he feels like the best get on
bass pick of anybody in this. Class like he's gonna
come in be A day one, starter AND i don't
know where his ceiling, is but his floor is a
GOOD nfl starter right.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Now.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
YEAH i love when this, Happens legan Because i'm just
a guy And i'm trying to learn this and LIKE
i because you, said like all the things you're, Saying
i'm over here smiling because LIKE i feel validated a
little bit because what DID i? WRITE i wrote, Tight
hibson can't bend all that, Well like that's, It that's
what but everything else is it's just right there right big,
(37:32):
body explosive through the. GAPS i also thought he had
like really NICE i don't want to say football Q,
iq but he's a team.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Player he's smart.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
With stunts and the, twist like he's willing to do
the dirty work to free up another.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Player, yeah WHICH i Love that d line coach At
oregon must have been awesome Because Jimarry caldwell plays the same.
Way like they both are really. Unselfish they're really smart.
Players AND i just think the Reason Derek harmons is
highest because he's Just he's just. Better he's a better,
Athlete he's got more, upside he can do more, Stuff
he's more scheme. AGNOSTIC i really think if he can
figure some of the past row stuff, out he could
(38:08):
be a very effective pass rustaurant third. DOWN i just
haven't seen it from, him AND i do have a
little bit of reservation about his hip, titness which makes me.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Nervous.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Okay at number three Is Omar Norman lot From.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Tennessee, yeah, so, kids this is why you watch more
than one. GAME i forget which GAME i. WATCHED i
think it was The vanderbilt, game AND i was, LIKE
i don't, know, man he just doesn't seem super. Intuitive
seems like he's having a hard time kind of feeling plays.
Out you do see some explosive, twitch you see some,
burst but, MAN i don't. Know so THEN i got
kind of went away from it for a little bit
(38:43):
went back and watched THE Nc state game and we
talked about being. Disruptive he was the most disruptive PLAYER
i watched in that, game and you, know he was.
Unblockable he's got great length for his. Size he got
thirty four inch. Arms he's like six to, one kind
of a short shot off exactly which you. Want short sawed,
off wide, hipped long armed, guy and he's quick off the.
(39:05):
Ball he gets his hands on. People he's got a
really great timing and feel for pass rush, moves knocking hands.
Down he's got enough length to kind of stun yet
the line of. Scrimmage he can. Shed he's pretty, instinctive
and he's fast.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Man he's. Fast he plays a great.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
MOTOR i watched probably thirty plays of THE Nc state,
game And i'd say.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
He was disruptive on over half of.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Them like he was affecting the play in a way
that no other PLAYER i had watched in this class had. Done,
now they do like hockey line rotations At, tennessee so
it's really hard to, judge like how he's going to
play in a whole. Game is this something he's doing
just because he's super, Fresh so that's why he's the third,
guy but man's he was incredibly impressive and all the
(39:49):
things you want to see from like a modern defensive
tackle from like your ability to stop the, run, penetrate,
gaps rush the. PASSER i JUST i, said this is
the guy you, know and if you're going to take
a fire on some this would be it for.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Me so here's the one THING i looked up for
him THAT i thought was kind of stuck. Out he
gets a penalty for every thirty eight snaps that he's
a part.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
No, kidding which a little on.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Disciplined not sure.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Why that is thirty eight snaps.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Every thirty eight snaps he had a penalty a.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
False starter or do you don't?
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Know it doesn't say it doesn't say it just says
penalty thirty eight snaps that he, had which.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Is pretty that's pretty freak.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Wild but, YEAH i mean he's a pass rush. NIGHTMARE
i think as a defense SNACKLE i actually wrote as a.
COMPARISON i hope Our washington commanders fans were like, This
he's Like Doran pain but, raw like very Raw.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Dorn BUT i think he's got more, bend more natural
path Like doran's a freak he's, explosive he's, twitchy he's
a lot of fun to, watch but a LOT i
was surprised by how refined he was as a pass.
Rusher so when you're watching a really good pass, rusher
there's like a rhythm and.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Timing it's almost like a.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Dance and he's got the dance moves that you're looking,
for AND i, think in conjunction with the just general
effort that he plays with his ability to do that
stuff was just incredibly, impressive all.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Right and at number two is one Of Fred smoot's
boys From Ole, Miss Walter.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Nolan Walter nolan does Everything Omar Omar Norman lott, does
but he just does it. Better he just does it not,
better BECAUSE i actually Think Norman lott has a better
pass rush. Dance BUT i do Think Walter nolan is
on rundowns, consistently more, snappy he's a little bit better,
penetrator he's a little bit more, disruptive and he's got
(41:38):
the bend that you kind of want from a pass.
Rush he's a little, undersized BUT i think the combine
did him a lot of favors because he's not as
undersized as everyone.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Thought he'd.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Be he's six three and a. Half he's two ninety,
five so everyone thought he was going to be this really,
tiny kind, of you, know eighty five type. Guy but
he's AN nfl starting defensive. Lineman he's lengths, fine serviceable,
length and the film speaks for. ITSELF i wish there
was SOMETHING i could say here that would enhance. This
but like good pass rush, ability good against the explosive
(42:06):
versus the. Run you, know like twitchy kind of got
good knot back and penetrate and a generally good instinct
for the. Game so that's WHAT i feel about.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Him So i'm going to push back just a little.
Bit all, Right So i'm going to say that FROM
i wrote down positives all the things you were talking,
about but some of the cons THAT i wrote, down
AND i could have just missed it Because i'm just a.
Guy is at the handwork look a little, messy and
he was annoying in the run, game but not really.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Disruptive, YEAH i think that's where, Like so MAYBE i
was evaluating him based on. Commanders, OKAY i feel like
he's a commander's. Player, okay what he means by, that.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
He's going to.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Penetrate he's going to get in the. Gap he's going
to be, disruptive he's going to mess up double teams
because he's maybe not going to make the, tackle but
he's gonna remember that vertical. Penetration we talked about a
lot of the guys we talked about on this, List
so like Your Alfred, collins You're Derek harmon's your You're
Jamira caldwell as Your Tyler williams are good at like
hands on, blocks, shedding, splitting being in my. Gap he's
(43:06):
going to dive up the field at one thousand miles an.
Hour he's going to pick off the. Guard it's going
to make a big. Mess the running back's going to
sweak through to an unblock. Linebacker like that's Really you're
relying solely on his ability to be explosive and get
off the. Football AND i do think he's good enough
to do the other. Stuff but that's WHERE i think
he's not my number one player for a. Reason it
was very, close, obviously BUT i don't disagree with. THAT
(43:30):
i just THINK i was, thinking, like how would he
fit in the system a little, bit which is maybe
a bias towards. Commanders, obviously but like that ability to
get in the, backfield to, penetrate to be. DISRUPTIVE i
thought it was pretty.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Special absolutely all. Right so you mentioned your number one
Now logan before we started. Filming, yes you said that
you didn't want to put him as your. NUMBERS i
didn't want, To, Okay So i'm going to challenge you
and to challenge, me right because not THAT i disagree
with number, one that it's not that it's NOT i,
MEAN i JUST i really want to dissect what you said,
there so AS i could probably guess number one is From,
(44:02):
Michigan Mason. Graham that's pretty much a consensus universal number, one,
potential top, ten maybe even top. Five ye. Okay and
then you SAID i don't, know and that surprised me
a little. Bit AND i, said well then why did
you put them at your number? One and you're, like ah,
know Well.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Why so you're not going to find a more consistent
player in this draft. Class AND i think that's ultimately
WHAT i settled.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
On, Right.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Okay he doesn't have the pass rush juice of The
Walter nolans or The Omar Norman. Lots he's not as
physical in the run game necessarily as The Alfred collins
or The Derrek harmon's, right he's not, that But i'll
be damned if he doesn't play every play like he's
about to die on the. Field he's got good. Technique
he's got good quickness and not.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Great see.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Listen this Is i'm saying good a, lot not, great
but good, quickness good, play, strength good. Feel and when
you kind of look at all the, averages there's nothing
that really. Excels like when you Watch norman as a pass,
rush you're, like oh my. God when you Watch williams
as a run, Stop you're, like oh my, god this is.
Incredible everything's like a SOLID c PLUS b minus. Roim
(45:08):
but every single category is like. That the way he
pursues the, football his football, instincts like it's all. There
so like when he reminds me a little bit of
Like Joe alt last, Year LIKE i didn't Love Joe,
aalt but he was going to be a good. Pro
right how good of a? PRO i didn't know BECAUSE
i was worried about athletic upside and. Ceiling that's KIND
i feel About mason. Gram he's going to be a good,
(45:29):
pro but is he going to ever be like a
Top like when you take a guy in the top,
five you're looking for a game, changing game wrecking type,
player And i'm not sure he fits that, bill you,
know like when you compare him To fisk from last,
year for, Example, fisk when we watch him at The Senior,
bowl the, quickness the, balance it showed up every. Play
(45:49):
he was penetrating in the team drills and, here like
there's times where he goes real quiet for a long,
time real, quiet not very disruptive when there's other, Guys
like they're in the back of the, lot they're making,
plays they're throwing guys on the, ground they're you, know
like The collins. Man like we talked about every, player
like this guy is a problem right, Now he's not
(46:09):
gonna pay all the. Time Mason graham does not come
off the field very, rarely Right he's playing the whole.
Time so that's kind of where, again like he just
was so, consistent and as much AS i wanted to
put someone else ahead of, HIM i couldn't justify it
because the level of consistency was so.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
GOOD i just.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Worry that this is this is who he's going to
be in THE, nfl and that's a good. Player but
when you're drafting a guy top, five you want a difference,
maker and is he ever going to be that consistent difference?
Maker AND i don't the. Question the answer IS i don't.
Know and that's WHY i was so, Cool LIKE i
was so nervous about putting him. HERE i just couldn't
justify putting else anyone else above, him because he was
(46:46):
just missed your consistency across the.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Board SO i know this is a tough, Question but
where then would you take him if you, want if
you want in the top five or even the top,
ten a difference. Maker and you're, like, well this is
as you, like mitigating, risk nice one, base he's gonna
Be he's going to at least be a. Double these are.
Triple maybe he's on. Run he's at least be a.
Double where do you find that?
Speaker 1 (47:08):
VALUE H so this is a really good. Question AND
i was thinking about this last night WHEN i was
putting this list. Together this would be a better question
like when we do our big, boards you, know like
because when you've watched everybody and you're, like this guy's
a difference, maker this guy's a difference. Playmaker but and
you go good on the, list then you can kind
of get a better feel for what's out. There BUT
i was thinking about, it and If i'm a, team
Like i'm probably Taking Shamir stewart above, Him i'm Taking
(47:30):
Abdual carter above. HIM i might be Taking tetro McMillan above,
him just from a game changing, standpoint, right Taking Travis
hunter probably above, him and then you kind of so
that's four people right, there and AGAIN i think it
helps him if there's not like a dominant offensive, Line
i'm probably taking Armand membu above. Him so now he's
the sixth, guy, Right SO i think for me comfort,
level i'd probably take him anywhere between fifteen and. Ten like,
(47:54):
SO i think there's probably. TEN i would, assume not
having done a big, board that there's ten players better
than him in this draft. Class but now That i'm
thinking about, it like who else would you put above?
Him you're not Putting Will johnson above, him like you,
know you're not putting so like as you go, through you're,
like maybe six is exactly where he's supposed to, be
and that's still like a top five draft, pick you.
Know SO i think this kind of speaks to that
(48:14):
thing we were talking about the beginning of the show
where the top of this draft class there's not a
lot of blue chip guys that are like franchise, changing
and so maybe you're okay with a guy who's going
to be a really good starter in THE, nfl but
maybe not never like an all pro you, Know Aaron
donald type.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Guy, yeah, hey, Look Mason graham has heavy and violent,
Hands he's nimble and fluid pass rush moves, right he's
got a, motor he plays. Nasty yeah he looks, small
but you said before we even, started he's been doing
this for four.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Years and so that's maybe that's the. Thing it's, like
as much as you want someone who's going to like
light your hair on, fire like he's he's a, double
he's a at the least.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
At the least a.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Double AND i, think, like, again be a little bit Of,
Joel like he's just a good. Prospect AND i think
like that's something in the scouting community and probably me
PERSONALLY i have to get better at like that's.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Good, yeah that's that's.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Fine and that's kind of WHERE i am at on
and he's just a good, Player like if he's if
he's A washington, Commander like you're doing, backflip because he's
going to be playing in THE nfl for ten years
and he's going to do the right stuff and he's
going to be a part of your defense and play
hard every play and, again can he develop a little
bit as a pass?
Speaker 2 (49:24):
RUSHER i hope, So but that's WHAT i.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
WAS i think that was maybe the most surprising thing
is he didn't have like a super consistent pass. Rush
kind of go to feel now a little. Bit that's
the defense he's playing. In but that's kind of HOW
i feel about. Him and that's my, list And i've
actually like this is one of the better LISTS i
feel about BECAUSE i feel LIKE i watched a lot
of guys for. THIS i feel LIKE i have a
very good feel for the position group AND i think
all these, guys at least these top ten, guys like
(49:48):
they'd make your team.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
Better right, now all, right for the, Nerds we're going
to throw out four more, names just, names because a
lot of people listen to these shows to hear names
that are maybe not the same ones you hear over
and over again With top tens all the. Time so
we're gonna give you some guys that, well maybe they go.
Higher we don't. Know the draft is, unpredictable but it's
going to be middle round guys. Potentially So i'm going to.
(50:09):
Start and the REASON i want to start is BECAUSE
i really really like talking about this. Guy he was
the very first GUY i. WATCHED i immediately texted. You
he got me juice to watch as rest of this,
class and IT'S Jj, Pegas Peggy, PEGGY i thinkas, YEAH
i think It's pegas From. Mississippi he was six to
two and a half three hundred and nine pounds and
(50:32):
this this dude just he started his career as a tight.
END i looked him. Up he started his career.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
As already nine and twenty twenty, three, right.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Yeah, yeah and he moved the defensive. Line so he's technically.
Raw but this dude is, huge and he is athletic
for his, size and there's just he has he just
moves so. Well he has he's laughably, ATHLETIC i, think
and short area of. Quickness he has a spin move that's,
(51:02):
Great like it's just, yeah he plays, tall he's, raw
and he has looks like maybe adequate, power but, man
he's just fun to, watch and there's something there when
you have guys that are just this.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Athletic and it was weird watching him because his combine
numbers are just, man you, know you ran like a
five to. One his arm lengths, Okay but then you
watch them versus LIKE i forget where they were playing
old miss VERSUS lsu and he's doing like a cross
shop on our, Guy Will, campbell you know WHAT i,
mean and you like and that takes a lot Of
we talked about the dance of pass. Rush he's got
(51:36):
the dance of pass, rush, Right he's like doing a
S lin stunt and ricochets off the center and gets
a tackle for a. Loss you're just, like dude just
kind of makes plays and has a good feel for,
football and he's just.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
Motor, yeah he's kind of.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
A, ballplayer you.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Know like, again nothing crazy about his measurables or anything like,
that but the rhythm of his play the athleticism that
comes with.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
THAT i was pleasantly.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
Surprised AND i don't remember where he fell on my final,
list BUT i think he was like, eleven maybe, twelve
so he was really.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
Close, yeah this is the type of guy that when
you start getting into the middle in later, rounds you're, like,
man this dude just loves. Football think you can just.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Tell and he played full running back.
Speaker 3 (52:12):
Round, yeah he did some running back wildcut. Stuff you
told me that right. BEFORE i looked at some highlights
right before he, started and, yeah the dude just he's
just a football Football JOHNNY jj.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
Football at the, combine he worked out his tight end
and as a, fullback you, know they did fullback drills
and he caught the ball. Afterwards and for a man
that big to be moving like, that you're just, like, yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:31):
Yeah he's not going to be your tight end and
he's not going to be your. Fullback but but like
in situation you run him at the goal. Line that
like a commander's access Year jade And daniel's first touchdown
went To Trent.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
Scott Trent, Scott, yeah maybe it's J j Like alan
Like percard From percard From patrick Krikcard. Card Patrick kricard
From baltimore is a converted defensive. Lineman and so if
you could get a package where you don't have to
carry a fullback or you don't have to carry a
gold goal line tight, end you could do that stuff for.
You that's great, value but very, rhythmic very. Smooth looks
(53:05):
weird on film because he wears number thirty, Nine so
but fun player to, watch all.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
Right who's your first guy here for the?
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Nerds Vernon bhuton is that we're gonna, Say, YEAH i Think.
Bhuton so he wears number forty. Five he plays For.
Texas he's six' five and.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
A HALF he's i think he's like, three fifteen three
seventeen something, like that but thirty five, inch arms kind
of a weird pear, shaped body kind of, wide hipped
but plays with, great length, good athleticism AND what i
mean by good athleticism is for a man of, that
size He can he's got some pass, rush, Ability right
he's more of a penetrator's little stiff in, the hips
so he's never gonna like turn, that corner but can
(53:42):
push the pocket with. The length has a great feel
for like the run. Scheme stuff not as stout as
Like your williams Or your caldwells Or your collins Or your,
harmon's RIGHT but i think he's a starting player or
a rotation let me say a rotational player AT the.
NFL level i will say his balance is a little
bit up and down for ME when i, Watch him
like times he's on, The ground, i'm like why are
on the? Ground here but there's other times where he
(54:02):
plays with great strength and. GREAT intuition i think could
be like a first and second down rotational piece for.
A TEAM and i think about, the commanders, you know
with a later, round pick you know that could fill
a role of kind of a, run stopping bigger body,
type guy and he seems to fit that bill.
Speaker 3 (54:18):
Very, nicely yeah he is a fifth, year senior played
in fifty five games, sixteen starts so he has he
has a little bit under. His belt his stats, aren't
crazy but he's also on a lot of all. Academic,
teams nice so, smart, dude right like a really nice
piece probably in the. Later rounds, All right i'm going
(54:40):
to TALK. About. TJ sanders i got to pull him.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
Up here this is a. Good one This. IS south
i like this guy a, lot actually.
Speaker 3 (54:47):
All right so he HAS he, i think the ability
to become a disruptor at the. Next level he has
speed and an extra gear that he uses to explode in.
The gap so there's something where like he's fast for,
his size but he has an extra like fast and
furious push the, knas button and there's a little explosiveness that,
(55:09):
he uses and he somehow can he gets skinny at
the point of attack and can Kind of maybe maybe
he's just undersized and that's why he can. Do THAT
but i just really like. THIS guy i think it's because,
he's fast he has, nice counters strong, arm. Bunches, flexibility
yeah he's. Probably undersized he's missing that raw power and
(55:31):
doesn't shed his blocks all that great and non. Passing
downs there as the only NEGATIVES that i saw With my.
JESSICA guy i so tell Me where, i'm right tell
Me where. I'm wrong you're.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
The, EXPERT yeah i think he's probably the best pure,
pass rusher like if you're looking for just like a.
Fastball pitter like obviously we talked About omaronman Lot And,
Walter nolan like those guys are higher on the list
because they do both. Really well they play the run,
Decently well they've got a. GOOD feel i will SAY.
T j sanders kind of has similar pass. Rush juice
like he's got a kind of a wider way. Or
(56:01):
moves he looks like a defensive end kind of the
way he moves and. Bounds around he has a terrible
time sitting the. Run right, he like if he's got
his hands, on you he's got. A shot he's got,
long arms got thirty four, inch arms so he can
kind of keep you away and make. A play but
if he's in a, double team if it's a gap scheme,
at him he's kind of, high hipped he's got, really
skinny relatively, skinny legs so he'll get pushed off the spot.
(56:21):
Pretty EASILY and i think that's where he struggles and
where you're kind, of like what's? Your role, because again
you do bring tremendous value as a, pass Rusher but
i'm always worried about guys that are just solely.
Speaker 2 (56:31):
Pass RUSHERS like.
Speaker 1 (56:33):
I think he can develop. INTO more i think you
can get a little. BIT bigger i think you can
get a little. Bit heavier, but AGAIN like i wanted
to put him higher on, the LIST but i think
he had such a hard time with some of the,
RUN stuff i just didn't know where he. Fit now
very productive as a pass very very productive and adds
immediate value. Day one like, rotational guy he just needs
to figure out maybe some, better techniques maybe some more
(56:54):
coaching with how to just improve his as on first.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Second.
Speaker 3 (56:58):
DOWN yeah i really enjoyed, watching, Him right so the
last one for the, Nerds here i'm.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
Gonna, do too is? That, okay okay.
Speaker 1 (57:04):
Yeah Yeah zeke Biggers From georgia tech is an interesting
cup of tea because. He's big, you know he's six,
sixty five. Three twenty he's got an eighty five and
a quarter, inch wingspan so right on the Dot With
alfred collins and.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
RAN well i think he ran like a five.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
FLAT forty i think it was a five point. H
nine so really can Move like ben's decently well for
a man of, that size and it's just kind of a,
physical freak, you know and so.
Speaker 3 (57:32):
Very.
Speaker 1 (57:33):
Technically raw you don't always. See him he's got Thirty
five he had the longest arms of. THE combine i
think it was thirty five and a half inch or
thirty five. And eighth so, freaky big freaky long moves
like a kind of a. Basketball player does flash a,
little bit but you don't see him ever use his
length the way. He should you don't see him use
his athleticism the way. He should he's just kind of
(57:53):
out there and so if there was a guy that,
you're like let's take a developmental shot on a guy
who's got, the frame got, the, movement skills just had
and kind of put it. All together this definitely feels
like a guy in like the, fifth round, sixth round
if he's there that you kind of, just say let's
take a flyer on, some traits, some athleticism, some size
and hopefully.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
We get him with the right coach and they turn
him into an. Absolute maniac, all right who's your?
Speaker 3 (58:14):
Last?
Speaker 1 (58:14):
One, YEAH so i think the name that a lot
of people might be surprised not on Here Is ty Robinson.
From nebraska and the reason he was. VERY close i
think he was again like in, that eleven twelve thirteen
kind of range, for me so very.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
Very close he.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
Tested well at the, combiny right the fastest forty for any,
defensive tackle at the highest vertical john for any. Defensive
tackle and he plays like. HE'S athletic i think the
one thing that really stuck out to me is he's
okay against, the run he's okay AGAINST. The pa as a,
pass rusher he's, wicked stiff wicked stiff in, his hips plays,
really high kind of, high hipped, narrow base and so
(58:49):
he's really just trying to penetrate all.
Speaker 2 (58:50):
The time and when you, do that if people just
punch your hip like you're on, the ground you're moving a.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
Long WAY and i think THAT'S where i think he's
got a lot of name recognition that kind of play,
style SPECIFICALLY because i think people think, Of, him oh
he's The next fisk OR Next. Jj watt he can play,
Inside outside he's not the same level. Of athlete he
doesn't have the same level, of length he doesn't have
the same kind of, play, Style RIGHT and i think
(59:15):
THAT'S where i, would say if you're going to take
a shot, on somebody maybe in, the third fourth round
might be a good Fit for washington because he does
have this inside. Outside flexibility he plays incredibly hard and
kind of as it would be better in a more
penetrating defensive front Like The. Washington commanders but that's why
he's not higher on, the list just for people kind
of looking for.
Speaker 3 (59:35):
That, name logan this is a.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
Good group it's a good.
Speaker 3 (59:38):
Lot, of fun a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (59:39):
To, watch yeah good group, For SURE and i, think
honestly like, for me like top fifteen guys are all
either starters or, you know heavy. Rotational guys so was
really pumped about.
Speaker 3 (59:49):
The class, all, Right, fans well keep, leaving comments keep asking,
us questions keep telling us who you want To hear logan.
RANKED next i think what we're going to do next
is DB's With. FRED smoot, i, think yeah that may.
GET pushed I don't i.
Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Don't, know yeah it's either that or running Backs, s,
yeah exactly he's going, offense defense so this.
Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Is defense we go. Running backs But if, fred's available
We'll get.
Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Fred one We'll get fred. On there but if we
haven't done. Quarterbacks yet there are a couple of ones
that we haven't. Done yet so leave a comment on
what group you want us to to do and specific
players maybe want us to.
Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Talk, about yeah specific players would be. Great, too yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
Because that goes into our nerds category here when you leave.
Those comments so thank you fans for listening and really.
Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
That's it
In today's episode, It Took It to the Draft Podcast,
we talk about what makes a great defensive tackle, and
then it's a draft show, so we ranked the top
ten defensive tackles. We got run stoppers, we got pass rushers,
and we got guys that can do it all. And
then we got a section four of the nerds for
you diehard. You just want the names, man, give me
the names. It all starts right now. Welcome into It
(00:24):
Took a Draft Podcast. I'm Logan Paulson here with just
the guy, Jason and Jason.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
The long awaited.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Defensive tackle review is here. We got a little sidetracked
there at the Combine kind of reviewing each of those days,
but we're back. We're here to talk about defensive tackles
and this class is I think very interesting to me.
It's like I think, after watching them and going through
all their film and going through all their highlight reels,
it's just it's different than what I expected. So I'm
excited to talk about a little bit.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
I wonder if this class is more of a microcosmo
with the draft as a whole, is do you look
at the tackle class. It's very deep, but maybe not
super top heavy, but you're gonna get a lot of
good players here, Like you did a list of twenty
that you sent me, which is that's just how many
guys you watch, because it's like, that's just how many
names are out there, right, So yeah, that feels like
(01:11):
how the draft is kind of shaping out. Not a
whole lot at the top, but very very deep as
far as talent throughout the draft.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
And we'll talk about the top of this group specifically.
But I had a really hard time with some of
the guys that are considered like quote unquote like top
guys in the class. When I watched the film, I
just I understand what people are looking at. But I
found him It wasn't like sometimes when you watch, like
when you watch out Do a Carter for example, you're like,
this dude is a knockout, you know, Grand Slam, home
(01:38):
run Chipper, Yeah, blue Chipper, Right. And I didn't feel
that way about the defensive tackles necessarily at the very
very top. However, there were some guys later that I
was like absolutely in love with, So I do think
it again, maybe you're right, it speaks to kind of
a weak top for a lot of the positions in
this class. But I think the middle portion of this
draft is very, very unique and very diverse in a
(02:01):
way specifically for this position that I wasn't expecting.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah, I want to I want to push back. I
want to say week I would just because I think
with last year's draft, we were so overwhelmed with blue
chip talent at the top that this feels it just
kind of feels like a normal draft week.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
It's not the right word, but it's just like, you know,
I'm not sure that there's a blue chip guy.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Yeah, there's just nobody that's heads and shoulders above somebody else.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I think, which is probably goes against what most national
media is saying.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I think it's oh well, I want to get into
it then, but before we get into your top ten,
and then of course at the end, we'll have for
the nerds just extra names of keeping ear out for.
I want to do the thing we always do, and
that's what do you look for in a defensive tackle?
And we're going to go through some terms that you're
going to use when describing them here, just so our
listeners kind of understand what you mean when you say
(02:50):
something like, oh, he stacks of blocks, So what do
you look for in a defensive tackle as an evaluator.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
So, yeah, this one's tough because it's a little bit
different than what you look for with other positions. Obviously
there's like an athletic trait, but I will say, like
athleticism for defensive linemen is different like offensive lineman.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I think athleticism.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Means what you think it means, like how you move
in space, like how you track stuff down, like how
you can kickstep, how you and then receivers athleticism that's
intuitive for defensive tackles. Obviously you want good athletes, but
to me, it's really driven by explosiveness. Explosiveness and power,
I would say, right, so like when you know, like
(03:29):
someone can burst off the ball and put their hands
on an offensive lineman and really shock them back and
control a gap, and then how quickly can I react
and kind of throw that guy down and penetrate up
the field. Like all of those things kind of combine
to inform a very specific type of defensive tackle athleticism,
which is.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
A little bit different.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
It's a little bit animalistic almost compared to other positions.
It's just like you're a raw beast of a man,
like you think about Aaron Donald, Like again, like he's
he's a tremendous athlete, but there's this explosives. You know,
he benches five hundred pounds. These you can see tackles
and offensive linemen surprised, guards surprised by when like his
hands are on him, the strength that he has, how
he moves, He's just constantly moving forward, challenging you. And
(04:12):
I think that's what makes a really good defensive tackle
is someone who can fight off two people at once,
can penetrate, can run down line of scrimmage, and it's
just very instinctive with how they move. And so that's
where that explosive kind of reactive strength becomes so important.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Yeah, and it's hard, I think sometimes to look at
stats and evaluate a defensive tackle. With edge you have sacks.
Sometimes with DT you have sacks as well, But defensive tackles,
unless you're like devoted to pass rushing, it is tough
to be like, oh, well, how do you like is
it tackles? Like how do you evaluate a defensive tackles statistically?
(04:48):
Or maybe you can't, right.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
So it's to me, it's more like I think pressure
rate is a really good way, and I think disruption
so like a lot of people say, oh, tackles for loss, pressures,
pressures are they kind of they work, that works as
a good metric, but how disruptive they are and so
like they're not going to get a lot of tackles
or TFLs for that. But are you augmenting the back's path?
Are you forcing the back to make a cut? Are
(05:10):
you forcing the quarterback to step up or move in
the pocket? Like that's really what you're just like what
you're judging on. And there's guys where you know, you'd
watch them and you're like you're waiting for some semblance
of their ability to disrupt something to come up, and
you know they're just getting stuck on blocks. They can't
run down line of scrimmage, they're not good with their hands,
you know.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And I think all that stuff is.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
That that's where again, from a good player to a
great player, it's really I mean, getting down to the
kernel of It's it's the disruption, their ability to disrupt
the play and kind of they're not going to get
a tackle or a stat necessarily for it. But like
splitting a double team, the back's got to bounce right,
the linebacker can outrunning the football, right, those types of things,
(05:54):
and maybe we should maybe we should have come up
with a metric for it, you know, like that we
could kind of have quantified, like how many disrup options
is this guy of in a game? Because I really
think that would be a very honestly a good way
to kind of track a defensive tackles production.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Is just eating double teams in and of itself. Something
that's important too, because not every player gets doubled, right
if you go in, you go, oh, well, we have
to double team this guy or he's going to be disruptive,
Like you said, is that a net positive as well?
So I think looking for a little.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
More Yeah, I think eating a double team is a
little bit of a misnomer. I don't think you're going
to find people who just eat double teams. I think
you see guys that play double teams well, and what
they're doing is they're actually splitting a double team, right.
They're they're forcing the offensive line into kind of bad
technique because of their technique. Right, they're kind of you know,
(06:42):
like they're the three technique is got hands on the guard,
the center's coming to block them, their ability to get
their hip in that gap, up the field, throw that
guard down, kind of penetrate that gap. And again, so
there's nobody getting to the linebacker. They're not they're winning
the line of scrimmage. They're owning their gap. Like, those
are the that I think. And when you see a
guy like there's a couple guys we're going to talk
(07:03):
about later that are true space eating players, like big players,
huge mammoth players. But the thing that really I find
very frustrating is when you watch those guys, they don't
hold they don't hold the spot, they don't hold the point.
So when you're eating a eating a double team quote unquote,
is you're destroying the double team. You're penetrating the double team.
You're not just sitting there. Because I'll tell you, I
(07:23):
don't care how strong you are, you could be Jordan Davis, right.
You know, one of the biggest, most athletic defensive tackles. Ever,
he doesn't do a great job of defeating double team.
So he'll get moved off the spot just because two
guys are stronger than one. You know, there's more friction force,
there's more power, like and so it's very rare. Like
the guy that maybe comes to mind is like Ted Washington,
who's like four fifteen, like just these mammoth kind of
(07:43):
cartoonishly huge people. But to me, it's not there is
value there, but it's I think the value again comes
in their ability to disrupt the double team.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I'm gonna come back to that where the disruption of
the play.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Yeah, I think that sometimes will here debate that goes on,
whether it's through fans or national commentators will be like, oh,
well he didn't as a defensive tackle, he didn't have
an impact on the game, and the argument against will
be like, well, yeah, it was doubled all day. Yeah,
and that's good because that frees something up. It's like, okay,
but a defensive tackle, they're going to be doubled. That's
(08:15):
just just the nature of it. So how disruptive are
you when you're getting the double team? Makes you an
elite player?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah, And I think, like going back to Aaron Donald
or Chris Jones, like they get double teamed, like you said,
almost every play, but they're never content with being blocked.
They always find a way to split and disrupt and
upset the kind of pattern and rhythm of the offensive
players footwork and they're timing and that to me, is
what makes a really good disruptive defensive player.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
All right, So off of that, I have a couple
of term clarifications. So if you say this guy is
heavy hands, what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yeah, so I think heavy hands.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
It's kind of like imagine if their hands were made
of bricks and I threw my hands on your chest
and you just saw the life kind of snap out
of that person's body.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Like that's kind of what you're talking about.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
It's more like there's some great examples of people with
extremely heavy hands in this class where they put them
on people and the offensive player just stops. There's no movement,
it's just done, and they can hold space. And then
once those hands are on you, their ability to be
strong with that and like grip them up and then
like throw that person in the ground or pull themselves through.
(09:19):
Like heavy hands is a huge thing for defense, I
mean defensive linemen in general, but specifically for defensive tackles.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
And what is stacking blocks? Like, all this player's great
at stacking blocks? What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So, like we just talked about on a double team,
you know like kind of you know, posting that guard,
penetrating with that center. So like let's say, let's say
I throw that guard down. I'm the three technique. I
throw the guard down, and the center just kind of
pushes me lateral down the line of scrimmage.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Even though I'm in my gap.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
I am creating a seam off the center's butt where
the back and cut. So ideally you'd want to throw
that guard down, get vertical stack that center's block so
that there's no widening of the hole. That's done right.
I am in the game A. I've penetrated beyond you.
You can't push me any wider, and now I have
the opportunity to make the tackle.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Be disruptive there's a word.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Again we're talking about, and make a tack and force
the running back to change his course.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I can do that.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
There are some guys in this class that are very special.
They can hold that. They can shed then hold the
point and they're holding it. They're not stacking the block,
but they're kind of locking the block out and keeping
building a wall right there. They're really special ones, in
my opinion, can stack, shed, get to the next level
and end up making a play on the bed.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
And as you're saying shed, what is like shedding it?
It seems like a shed tackler kind of seems like
self explanatory, is it? So?
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, shedding like so basically imagine you're trying to block
somebody and then they the defender says, you're not going
to block me. So I'm going to get to nice
long arms, I'm going to pull you through, I'm gonna
pull rip, I'm going to do whatever I need to
do to just defeat that block. Block destruction, I think
is another way to kind of talk about shedding, right,
your ability to take the block, digest what they're trying
(10:57):
to do, and then defeat what they're trying to do
and then make a place. Yeah, there's a bunch of
different ways people do that. Some people play over the top,
some people get vertical, some people lock out and pull through. Like,
there's a bunch of different ways. But that's the way
I kind of cluster that shed it. It's not shedding
the tackler shitting the blocker.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
I would say, yeah, Actually, that's one of I think
the more fun things that I like watching with the
attackers is that when they're really good at it, you
see it, get the heavy hands on them and you
can see the tackle is dissecting what the play is. Oh,
this is a run play, so I'm going to see
where this running back is going to go. Is you're
going to go to this gap or this gap, and
then once that's done, immediately sheds it makes a tackle one.
(11:34):
When you see that, it looks beautiful.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
It looks great, and I think there's a there's a
there's levels to it. There's the guys that are that
feel the block, read through the backfield, and then make
the play. And then there's guys that just have this
feel for like, hey, I'm getting a down block. It's power,
this is where the ball is going, and the reactions
are so quick and so explosive and so dynamic. So
I think that's where when you see that at a
(11:57):
high level, it's it's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
All right. The next thing I want to talk about
is when you talk about being twitchy, explosive, short area quickness,
all these things that we've used where like running backs
and wide receivers and corners and like that feels like
it makes more sense there. But when you're talking about
a three hundred and fifteen pound guy, how is he twitchy?
Is it a little bit different?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
It's a little bit different, but obviously, like the elite
ones are elite, you know, Like a good example of
this is like Jordan Phillips, So he's really explosively anticipates
that he's from Maryland. He anticipates the snap count really well.
And then his ability to get to where he's got
to be and then be it like have a blocker
engage and then explode snap through his hips and force
(12:38):
that offensive lineman to kind of buckle back under the
pressure that he's providing. Is a is a special trade.
So it's the movement skills obviously, but it's also their
ability to like it's twitching. It's a twitchingness with a power,
is the way I'm going to describe it, right, So,
like it kind of goes back to the heavy hands thing,
like when I get off the ball and I extend
my hands, it's happening very quickly, but it's also very
(12:59):
powerful a power punch in boxing almost, And that's where
I think the twitchiness is maybe slightly different for a
defensive tackle than even for a defensive end.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
All right, let's get right into it, Logan. Let's get
your top ten defensive tackles in this year's draft class.
Start at number ten for me.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, so number ten is Tylee Williams from Ohio State,
And he was not really on my radar prior to
the combine. I know he was probably on a lot
of national media members list, but like he's a little
over six to one we in at three hundred and
thirty four pounds, is a big, kind of bowling ball
type guy. He's only got thirty two inch arms, but
at the combine move really well. Just a great athlete
(13:36):
for being that big, and when you watch the film
of him, he's got some of the stuff we're talking
about here. His ability to get hands on you diagnose
his ability to diagnose runs is really elite, right, so
he'll you know, get this down block and instead of
like fighting with the guy, he just kind of throws
him by and plays back and is able to fill
the gap as the guards pulling and get it on
(13:56):
the play, which is which is great. I just think
he's got an elite super power versus the run. He's
never going to be a super dynamic pass rusher. He
does have a little bit of kind of hand fighting
ability where hold knock your hands down and kind of
work to an edge, and he's got great short air
quickness for a man that size, but he's never going
to really threaten an offensive lineman the way some of
these other guys on the list star. But his superpower
(14:17):
is is versus the run, and he's got these nice
low hips so when people try to double team, I mean,
even if he doesn't split or defeat the double team,
he can hold the point really well. Again, not the
longest guy in the world, so he's never going to
be like this great pass rusher, but man like he
is a he is special in that regard. So I think,
you know, maybe he's not going to be a true
died in the wole three down player, but I think
(14:39):
he's a guy that if you're having a hard time
stop in the run, he can come in on first
a second down and make you a whole lot better,
not only because of the physical body type, but because
he just seems to have tremendous awareness for offensive run
schemes and how to defeat what they're trying to do
to him.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
Well, let me ask you a question there, because I
wrote down kind of my jag guys were seeing what
you're talking about, right, It shows up very easy, like
very clearly to anybody watching this guy is a monster
in the run game. And he definitely has that like
block and shed like that beautiful that we were.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Just like extension.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Oh it looks so nice and he's big and powerful.
When I watched him, I went, you know what, I
think he's just like a little inconsistent with maybe the
pass rush, but he looks like he has the athletic
ability to potentially unlock that.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
So I don't disagree with that assessment because, like I said,
he does flash like a good feel for like a
nice little wiper or a little kind of cross shop,
and he's got a good timing with his feet, good hands.
I think the thing that hurts him is he's not
super bursty. Okay, so what you see was with the
offensive lineman is like he does this really nice move
and then they just kick one more time in the
(15:50):
right in front of him, and that's kind of always
who he's going to be, right.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I think the other thing too, is he doesn't.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Have the longest arm, so like in play action pass
situations out but they're grabbing him on the jersey and
he can't shed that very well because the lack of
length gotcha. So do I think he's Do I think
the thing you just said is one hundred percent true. Yes,
I just think his ceiling in that area is going
to be a little bit lower than some other guys
on this list. And honestly, why those other guys on
the list are higher, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Well, that's why I'm just a guy because I didn't
think in the consideration what you're just talking about, especially
with like your arm length, because I look at him
and I'm like, oh my gosh, if this is a
third or fourth rounder, he could be a steal if
someone can unlock the pass rush because he is just
dominant in the run.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
And I think the great thing for him too is,
like you said, like we talked about the combine, he
moves very well. I don't have his forty time right
in front of me. I think it's on the dock
if you don't look it up, Jason, But he just.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Moves really well.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
He's got good bend, and so do I think he
could be a first and second down player that from
the door is helping your team. And then give you
give it two or three years, and he adds, maybe
he's never going to be a ten sack guy, never
an eight sat guy. But maybe he's a guy that
wants five sacks, six sacks, and that's very valuable for
a player that comes in and adds so much value
(17:03):
as a run stopper.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
All right, So Taaleque Williams from Ohio State is forty.
He didn't run it at the combine. What I found
here was his last clock forty was a four to
six eight. Who knows when that was run. It does
say here that's ninety ninth percentile for it, So it's probably.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
He's kind of he's he's had a few biscuits since then,
I think. But yeah, again like that, it wouldn't surprise
me if at his size he ran a five ish
flat forty because he does move well, he bends well.
I was really in terms of on field stuff at
the combine. I was really impressed with him, and it
shows up on film.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
All right. So number nine you have.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Jared Harrison Junte from SMU. He's six three and a half.
He's I think he's two hundred and ninety pounds thirty
three inch arms. He ran a four to eight seven
at the Combine and so I kind of turned him
on just because he tested so well, just to see
what it looked like. And he basically plays a four
I sometimes a three technique sometimes knows and he is
(18:02):
athletically as build. And I think one of the things
that was really surprising to me is if you watch
the Clemson game, specifically, his ability to engage blockers, shed them,
and then have the burst and the quickness to get
up the field and penetrate in the backfield and affect
the quarterback was just incredibly impressive and so kind of
compiling the length, the height, the speed, the athleticism, the
(18:25):
natural playmaking instinct. Like we just talked about with Tyler Williams,
his ability to kind of anticipate it's his Junte's ability
to anticipate those blocks is not the same level, but
his quickness and his length helps him overcome that. He's
a little bit taller, a little bit linear, you know,
kind of not super wide in the hips, but he
(18:45):
makes up for it because he's such a tremendous like
he's got tremendous burst and get off and really flashed
in a way that I was not expecting when I
started watching this film.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, he started all fourteen games for SMU and at
a career high for tackles with forty two eighteen of
them where solo six and a half sacks, one little interception,
A nice little thing for.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Him there on a screen.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Maeah, and he's was at the East fresh Trimble. Is
that right?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I think so?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah, And he's an All ACC first team so no slacker.
I didn't watch him yet.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
No, I mean he was a guy. Honestly.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
I was just going through the combined numbers and was like,
let's take a look at this guy and see what happens.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
And I was really watching.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I think his name is Elijah Roberts, the defensive end
from SMU, And then this guy just kept popping up
on tape and I was like, I'm gonna just watch
this guy, see what happens.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
And that's what's fun about doing this with you. I
haven't seen his name pop up in many places. And
then when you sent me your list, I was like,
oh my gosh, I didn't watch him because I watched
about I think it was like fifteen guys that are
generally what the national media says, and you have some
guys on here that were not in there. So I'm
excited to go back and rewatch it, especially after looking
up his bio and he had a bawler season his
(19:53):
last year. All right, so number eight is our first
on the list from Oregon.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, Jamiriy Caldwell.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
And he has maybe been my most fun player to
watch throughout the preseason process. I mean, he absolutely just
flashed at the Senior Bowl, And I think flash is
the right word for him, because you wouldn't expect a
guy who's six one and a half and three point
thirty four to move and bend and kind of have
(20:20):
the natural body lean of someone like this, Like he
is special man. His ability to defeat blocks, penetrate, run
to the football, have a little bit of pass thrush
juice right, was just incredibly impressive. You watch in versus
Ohio State, like he's damn near unblockable at times, and
so like maybe I was thinking about this through like
a commander's focused lens, but I was like, if you
(20:43):
got him in here, he just raises the value of
your run stopping defense immediately. And he's got the ability
to penetrate if you want that to be part of
your defensive identity. At that body size and at that weight,
he doesn't have the longest arms in the world, but man,
he's got a great feel for that stuff. Like he
just he's one of my favorite players. Like he ran
well at the comment he ran a five to one four,
(21:04):
Like really just tested off the charts, bends well, moves
well as a tremendous athlete for his size, and then
couple that with the feel and the natural playmaking instincts.
He's never going to be a super juiced up pass rusher.
But the reason he's higher on the list than Junta
and Williams is because he's a better pass rusher than Williams.
And he's way more consistent down to down as a
playmaker than Harrison Nute from SMU. So that's why he's
(21:27):
a number eight on my list.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah, he's gotten really nice hands, I thought, very active,
and he seems like he just eats up space. So
like he's the length rate isn't there, Yeah, but like
he still fills up very well. Like he's thick.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
He's a funny guy because he's short, he's short stout,
But I mean he just like sometimes you just talk
about making plays like he just does it and he
has a great feel for it and it's something that
really just jumps out on film. You're like, man, like
this guy is really really impressive. Yeah, like it's again
like it just watch watch any Oregon game and both
(22:02):
their defensive tackles are absolute maniacs. But he is a
playmaker at that body weight. And you know, we talked
about the ability to like the stack blocks up, so
use my length, use my limit arm like lock blocks
out play black across blocks, penetrate like it's all there
for him, man. And you know the fact that this
guy's number eight on my list, I think speaks to
(22:23):
how talented the rest of this class is.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Quite honestly, all right, let's move on's who's your number
seven now?
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Darius Alexander from Toledo. I think everyone's probably heard him.
He was at the Senior Bowl, He's at the Combine,
tested really well, had a decent Senior Bowl game.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
The reason he's lower.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
On my list than I think a lot of people
in the national media is because, you know, I'm watching
him play small schools he sees from Toledo, and he
really just relies on being bigger and longer than everybody.
Like he's not a super refined mover. His techniques not great.
He's just the biggest, baddest dude on the field. Kind
(23:02):
of like Mike Green a little bit from Marshall, Like
that's kind of the vibe I got from him. And
so at the Senior Bowl, everyone was talking about how
good he was and he had a great week, but
it wasn't as dominant as it was when he was
at Toledo, And so I'm kind of saying, like this move.
He has this really nice long arm move that he
is in college where he absolutely fork lifts people back
(23:23):
in the quarterback and I'm like, that's not going to
play against NFL offensive lineman. You're gonna have to grow
and learn. And he's twenty six years old, so he'll
be twenty seven when he gets drafted, So he's an
old prospect with not a lot of refinement to his game.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
So I'm kind of like, how much time do you have.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Really to work with this guy and get him better Again,
he's tremendously athletic, he's huge, he's got awesome length.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
So is that what you're betting on then? Because you
have these hesitations? But he's also seventies in a deep class,
So it's it's the size, it's.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
The other stuff.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
You're kind of saying, like, he'll get with better guys,
the competition will be better, But like he's there's they
don't find many people that look and it's look is
one thing, but movement is the other thing too. Like
he's just a big athlete, and you know, there's some
big dudes on this list, a big dudes on the
twenty guys that I watched, But holy cow, man, he
(24:15):
just he just flies around and he's physical, he's violent,
he makes a lot of plays. He's got natural bend.
I think that was the other thing. You know, there's
a guy we're going to talk about in our in
our kind of what do they call the extras, Yeah,
the ones for the nerds that are that is very
similar to this player. But his ben and his just
general movement competency. I was just like, man, someone's going
(24:36):
to take a flyer in this guy, and I would
totally understand why.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
So at number six is a guy that I wrote
down he's a freak athlete who's just a big, bad man,
and that is.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
H Kenneth Kenneth Grant from Michigan. And I think a
lot of people will be surprised to see him here
at this juncture at six. I think a lot of
people will have him at two and if you and
I don't have any issue with you having of it too,
because I actually you understand completely, Like he's a freaky
human being. He's gigantic, he's long, he moves well from
(25:09):
being three hundred threty four pounds, he moves great.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
He's strong too, Yeah, I wrote down snow plow path.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, he's very strong. I think the thing that, like,
you know, we talked about with Williams. We talked about
it with Caldwell from Oregon, Williams from my house state
is a technical understanding of the run game and like
where to play, how to play a box, where my
hand should be, how do I shed when I'm getting
certain combinations, like where I need to now fit and fill?
(25:35):
And I didn't get that same sense of urgency from
Keith Grant from Kenneth Grant, and I didn't get the
same kind of awareness. And I also got a little
bit of like laziness or lackadaisicalness from him as a
guy that I was like again, like I like the power,
I like the movement skills, I like the length. But
sometimes he's standing tree top tall and he gets thrown
(25:58):
out of the club and I'm like, for a guy
who is going to be a top twenty pick in
the draft, like I think these other guys are playing
with more consistency in college. Now, I understand you're betting
on the frame, you're betting on the athlete. He does
flash man Like there was a play versus I want
to say Minnesota where he like runs down a screen
and he's you know, he's three hundred and thirty five pounds.
(26:19):
You're just like, holy cow, Like where did that come from?
So there is that, but he reminds me a little
bit of like Jordan Davis, and Jordan Davis isn't a
bad comp because you know, Jordan Davis went top I
was the eleventh pick or tenth pick in the draft.
The thing that I keep coming back to is that
Jordan Davis only plays about a third of the snaps
for Philadelphia. So if he's going to do that for you, like,
(26:40):
has he shown enough pass rush upside? Has he shown
enough general athleticism technical mastery to warrant being a top
twenty pick or a top twenty five pick. And I
just was a little bit dubious because I again, like
I think Williams and Caldwell do a.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Better job of that. Now they're not the athlete, not
the specimen that guy is. But that's why he's six.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
In my list. Okay, So I want you to tell me,
So this is just what I saw, and I want
you to tell me what I'm missing. So you said
the word like laziness a little bit in there, or
like it's just a little slow maybe at times, like
I don't. What it looked like to me is that
he has a very surprising burst for as big as
(27:26):
he is, Like when ione's like whoa, he knows when
to turn that one and when to turn it off.
It looks like and he can move laterally really really
well for being as big as he is. And that's
kind of what stood out to me. I did see,
like I wrote down here in his cons can get
caught fighting block sometimes and just gets kind of stuck there.
(27:48):
But there are times where he gets stuck there and
it's like, I'm fine with it because it looks like
you're not going to have an impact on this play.
It's already passed where you need to be. There are
other times where it's like he's kind of stuck there.
The plays developing in front of him and then just boom,
explosive burst right out there. So I see what you're saying. Yeah,
But like what am I missing because I feel, I
(28:09):
don't know, there's something about him. I don't see laziness.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
So it's a maybe a lack of urgency. I think
it's the word I'm going to say. Like there's times
where I see him kind of like he's got a
hand on a block and he's just kind of looking
through and he seems to be content staying blocked. And
I've heard that that's not from I saw that, but
I've also heard that from Scouts and other people I've
talked to, And so that's where I just kind of
(28:33):
I couldn't settle in on it because there's other guys
on this list that we're going to talk about here
in a second that I think fill similar roles to him,
that I think play with tremendous urgency, tremendous awareness, and
I just don't didn't see it, you know, Like when
you like mel Kiper, I think is that it best?
It's like for being as big and as athletic as
he is, Like I want more, I expect more, Like
(28:53):
you know, Calledwell, I'm going to go back to him,
Like when you turn on the film, he is fighting
for his life on every play to split, to stack,
to penetrate, and he makes plays and he's very disruptive constantly.
I feel like our guy, Kenneth Grant again, he's higher
than called bole because he's a freak, right, He's a
physical freak. Is just there that's not there. And with
(29:16):
big dudes like that, that's something that I've seen a
lot of big dudes get drafted. I've played with a
lot of big dudes like that of the course of
my career, and they, for whatever reason, never turn it on.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
And I don't understand why.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
And again, like, why would I risk not getting what
I want out of him or not getting what I
think I can get out of him when there's five
or six other dudes in this draft that will absolutely
die on the field for you.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
And I think that's where I come down on it.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
And I think you're also like some And sometimes when
I'm watching this, I don't have the same mindset that
you do because I get lost in like, this is
not who they're going to be, right, this is just
this is still multiple clue. So when I obviously, as
you pick higher up. You want to mitigate risk, as
you said, so you want to see more so it's
(30:02):
less of like a work in progress. But all of
these guys are going to improve in some way or another.
And if this is one that's harder for you to say,
I don't know if it will improve no matter what.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
I think I put on there, that's on the sheet
I think I put like, interview is going to be
a big deal for him, right because if he interviews
great and you feel confident, and he kind of answers
all the questions and he's a leader, and he's got
this charisma to him and he's got this work ethic
that I'm going to bet on that guy, right because
the traits are there, you know what I'm saying. But
the thing that I can't get past is like I've
(30:34):
seen so many guys like I go back to Jordan Davis.
This is the one that's closest in proximity to this
who has everything physically you want, everything you could possibly want,
but doesn't play like it all the time. And so
I want a dude who I'd rather take, the dude
who's a little bit less physically gifted, who's going to
pour it out for me, and I think that's where
I come down on it.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Gotcha. The next one is one of my favorites in here,
who's just an absolutely large human large, and that's Alfred
Collins from Texas.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I mean large is probably doing him a little bit
of a disservice because he was. He was the biggest
human at the combine. And so what that means is
like they measure wingspan, and was like, why the hell
do you measure wingspan? Wigspan is just body size, right.
If you have a big win wingspan, you have a
big chest, you've got long arms, you're just a big human.
So he was the largest of the defensive lineman. He
(31:28):
was eighty five inches, which is a crazy number. And
he's a huge man, Like he's super heavy. I want
to make sure I get his exact numbers here. So
he's six' five and five, eighths so bigger Than Kenneth.
Grant he's three hundred and thirty two. Pounds he weighed
heavier Than Kenneth. Grant he's got thirty four and five
inches five inches. Arms his arms are two inches longer
Than Kenneth grant his hand or ten inches his wingspan
(31:50):
we just talked, about and he plays harder Than Kenneth,
grant and so, like why this is kind of one
Where i'm, like he didn't run a, forty but like
he makes. Plays you're, like he's that big doing that
locking guys, out throwing them. Down he's got a little
spin move that he. Runs he's got a nice little
(32:11):
cross shop that he. Runs he's got like weird kind
of ballerina feet for a man who's that. Size he was, Like,
logan you're describing a guy should go top. Ten he
gases out in like ten plays like he is in bad.
Shape LIKE i don't know what his deal, Is like
he needs to go with a strength, coach get an
asmin hal or whatever it. Is he will show you
the best four plays you've ever seen and then be
off the field for ten and then come Back you're,
(32:32):
like oh my, god there's that guy again.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
And off the.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Field so whatever he's doing aerobically needs to. Improve but the,
length the heavy, hands the, size the foot, speed the,
athleticism the, instincts it's. There it's just you might only
get it for twenty snaps in a.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Game, Yeah and you know, what it's so funny BECAUSE
i wrote he is a point of attack dominator stack
and should black. Destroyer he is going to legitimately just
clog up get ap and he, is like you, said
he fights.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Man he is he's a. Grinder, yeah he's in.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
There he's a.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Grinder and then so THAT i was, like, well Maybe
i'm being hard on. Him but then we go to
the combine and they do the hoop drill and so
he has to put his hands on his. Knees after the,
hoop he walks back. Slowly guys are, running remember that.
Guy we're running past them to get in. Line he
gets in, Line he's got to move everybody out the,
way get to his. Spot like he's got a conditioning.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
AND i AND i wrote down that the tank is ON.
E and you, know like when you're driving the car
and you get. It my wife does this all the.
Time she never fills up the car with. Gas So i'm,
like all, Right i'm gonna go take the kids to
whatever they need to go. To AND i get in
the car AND i turn in the one and it's ONE.
E and it's not like it's past the point of
where it tells you how many. Miles it's just like
(33:47):
low and you're, like, well this could MEAN i have one,
mile it could MEAN i have ten. Miles, Right so
that's what he's like to, Me like he's gonna get
out there and he's gonna he's gonna. Go, oh but
who knows when the car is?
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Stalling, yeah who knows when the car is going to?
Stall and it's his film IS i was so. IMPRESSED
i was so he's so big and for him to
move the way he, does for him to do all
the things he just talked about with the physical violence
and the consistency he does it, WITH i was blown.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
AWAY i was blown. Away BUT i just was, like
you're how much are you gonna?
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Play and we have excellent strength and conditioning coaches With,
washington So i'm not really worried about.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
It they'll figure it out and figure it, out figure
it out.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Because like you, said he's a, grinder and as you
were saying earlier with one of the other, players like
there's something about when you're a. Grinder, yeah like your deficiencies,
here it's, more, uh you're willing to bet on them
because it's, like, well you got the workout THAT i
see it on the, field like YOU i don't need
to be, proved play, hard SO i know you're gonna
work hard to get. Better so maybe maybe conditioning is
(34:55):
always a. Problem but it looks like because he's such
a grinder in the, field like you, said he's gonna
he's gonna take a coach to heart and work on.
Something and again like hopefully he doesn't lose some of
what he has because of that. Too his size is
a big.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Plays AND i also think like at the, combine he
doesn't look like he's out of like he doesn't look like.
Bad he doesn't have a bad body really like like like,
Uh Dion, walker you know From kentucky bad body kind
Of oh what's going on? Here this guy's not. That
he just NEEDS i think someone to kind of push
him a little bit BECAUSE i think he could BE
i think he could be the when it's all said and,
DONE i think you could be the most special player
(35:30):
in the.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Strip and, moving, YEAH i don't. Disagree moving on the
number for the other defensive tackle From, Oregon.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Derek harmon From morgan AND I i wanted to put
him maybe as the number one. GUY i really. DID
i was, LIKE i really like what he. Does he
plays four, eye he plays, nose he plays stand up
end in certain situations At. Oregon he has tremendous arm.
Length he uses his length. Well he's got great, instincts
he's got great play. Strength he's got really above average.
(35:58):
Athleticism like he can and stunt and loop and. Move
AND i was all, set, MAN i was all set
to put him as the number one guy on the.
List but there's a little bit of hip stiffness that
so he can't bend and like get around the corner
and he'll make a nice move At and that's the other.
Thing he's not as polished as a pass rusher or some.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Of these other.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Guys so like he's got, this he's a. Freak he moves,
well he's got great, Length he plays hard all the.
Time he doesn't have The collins issue where he's a
little bit gassed. Out he can play sixty snaps if
you want him, to and he can do it at multiple.
Spots the thing THAT i just couldn't get over, is
like everyone is comparison comparing him To Christian. Jones he
(36:38):
doesn't bend Like Christian. Jones he doesn't have the hand
consistency in terms of past rush Of Christian. Jones so
he'll beat a guy and then to finish that, RUSH
i got to dip my, shoulder bend my hips and
get down there and turn that corner and make that.
Tackle he can't do that right, now and so that's
where there's a little bit of.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Reservation but in terms.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Of, prospect like he feels like the best get on
bass pick of anybody in this. Class like he's gonna
come in be A day one, starter AND i don't
know where his ceiling, is but his floor is a
GOOD nfl starter right.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Now.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
YEAH i love when this, Happens legan Because i'm just
a guy And i'm trying to learn this and LIKE
i because you, said like all the things you're, Saying
i'm over here smiling because LIKE i feel validated a
little bit because what DID i? WRITE i wrote, Tight
hibson can't bend all that, Well like that's, It that's
what but everything else is it's just right there right big,
(37:32):
body explosive through the. GAPS i also thought he had
like really NICE i don't want to say football Q,
iq but he's a team.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Player he's smart.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
With stunts and the, twist like he's willing to do
the dirty work to free up another.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Player, yeah WHICH i Love that d line coach At
oregon must have been awesome Because Jimarry caldwell plays the same.
Way like they both are really. Unselfish they're really smart.
Players AND i just think the Reason Derek harmons is
highest because he's Just he's just. Better he's a better,
Athlete he's got more, upside he can do more, Stuff
he's more scheme. AGNOSTIC i really think if he can
figure some of the past row stuff, out he could
(38:08):
be a very effective pass rustaurant third. DOWN i just
haven't seen it from, him AND i do have a
little bit of reservation about his hip, titness which makes me.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Nervous.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Okay at number three Is Omar Norman lot From.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Tennessee, yeah, so, kids this is why you watch more
than one. GAME i forget which GAME i. WATCHED i
think it was The vanderbilt, game AND i was, LIKE
i don't, know, man he just doesn't seem super. Intuitive
seems like he's having a hard time kind of feeling plays.
Out you do see some explosive, twitch you see some,
burst but, MAN i don't. Know so THEN i got
kind of went away from it for a little bit
(38:43):
went back and watched THE Nc state game and we
talked about being. Disruptive he was the most disruptive PLAYER
i watched in that, game and you, know he was.
Unblockable he's got great length for his. Size he got
thirty four inch. Arms he's like six to, one kind
of a short shot off exactly which you. Want short sawed,
off wide, hipped long armed, guy and he's quick off the.
(39:05):
Ball he gets his hands on. People he's got a
really great timing and feel for pass rush, moves knocking hands.
Down he's got enough length to kind of stun yet
the line of. Scrimmage he can. Shed he's pretty, instinctive
and he's fast.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Man he's. Fast he plays a great.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
MOTOR i watched probably thirty plays of THE Nc state,
game And i'd say.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
He was disruptive on over half of.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Them like he was affecting the play in a way
that no other PLAYER i had watched in this class had. Done,
now they do like hockey line rotations At, tennessee so
it's really hard to, judge like how he's going to
play in a whole. Game is this something he's doing
just because he's super, Fresh so that's why he's the third,
guy but man's he was incredibly impressive and all the
(39:49):
things you want to see from like a modern defensive
tackle from like your ability to stop the, run, penetrate,
gaps rush the. PASSER i JUST i, said this is
the guy you, know and if you're going to take
a fire on some this would be it for.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Me so here's the one THING i looked up for
him THAT i thought was kind of stuck. Out he
gets a penalty for every thirty eight snaps that he's
a part.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
No, kidding which a little on.
Speaker 3 (40:11):
Disciplined not sure.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Why that is thirty eight snaps.
Speaker 3 (40:13):
Every thirty eight snaps he had a penalty a.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
False starter or do you don't?
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Know it doesn't say it doesn't say it just says
penalty thirty eight snaps that he, had which.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Is pretty that's pretty freak.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
Wild but, YEAH i mean he's a pass rush. NIGHTMARE
i think as a defense SNACKLE i actually wrote as a.
COMPARISON i hope Our washington commanders fans were like, This
he's Like Doran pain but, raw like very Raw.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Dorn BUT i think he's got more, bend more natural
path Like doran's a freak he's, explosive he's, twitchy he's
a lot of fun to, watch but a LOT i
was surprised by how refined he was as a pass.
Rusher so when you're watching a really good pass, rusher
there's like a rhythm and.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
Timing it's almost like a.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Dance and he's got the dance moves that you're looking,
for AND i, think in conjunction with the just general
effort that he plays with his ability to do that
stuff was just incredibly, impressive all.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Right and at number two is one Of Fred smoot's
boys From Ole, Miss Walter.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Nolan Walter nolan does Everything Omar Omar Norman lott, does
but he just does it. Better he just does it not,
better BECAUSE i actually Think Norman lott has a better
pass rush. Dance BUT i do Think Walter nolan is
on rundowns, consistently more, snappy he's a little bit better,
penetrator he's a little bit more, disruptive and he's got
(41:38):
the bend that you kind of want from a pass.
Rush he's a little, undersized BUT i think the combine
did him a lot of favors because he's not as
undersized as everyone.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Thought he'd.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Be he's six three and a. Half he's two ninety,
five so everyone thought he was going to be this really,
tiny kind, of you, know eighty five type. Guy but
he's AN nfl starting defensive. Lineman he's lengths, fine serviceable,
length and the film speaks for. ITSELF i wish there
was SOMETHING i could say here that would enhance. This
but like good pass rush, ability good against the explosive
(42:06):
versus the. Run you, know like twitchy kind of got
good knot back and penetrate and a generally good instinct
for the. Game so that's WHAT i feel about.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Him So i'm going to push back just a little.
Bit all, Right So i'm going to say that FROM
i wrote down positives all the things you were talking,
about but some of the cons THAT i wrote, down
AND i could have just missed it Because i'm just a.
Guy is at the handwork look a little, messy and
he was annoying in the run, game but not really.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Disruptive, YEAH i think that's where, Like so MAYBE i
was evaluating him based on. Commanders, OKAY i feel like
he's a commander's. Player, okay what he means by, that.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
He's going to.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Penetrate he's going to get in the. Gap he's going
to be, disruptive he's going to mess up double teams
because he's maybe not going to make the, tackle but
he's gonna remember that vertical. Penetration we talked about a
lot of the guys we talked about on this, List
so like Your Alfred, collins You're Derek harmon's your You're
Jamira caldwell as Your Tyler williams are good at like
hands on, blocks, shedding, splitting being in my. Gap he's
(43:06):
going to dive up the field at one thousand miles an.
Hour he's going to pick off the. Guard it's going
to make a big. Mess the running back's going to
sweak through to an unblock. Linebacker like that's Really you're
relying solely on his ability to be explosive and get
off the. Football AND i do think he's good enough
to do the other. Stuff but that's WHERE i think
he's not my number one player for a. Reason it
was very, close, obviously BUT i don't disagree with. THAT
(43:30):
i just THINK i was, thinking, like how would he
fit in the system a little, bit which is maybe
a bias towards. Commanders, obviously but like that ability to
get in the, backfield to, penetrate to be. DISRUPTIVE i
thought it was pretty.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Special absolutely all. Right so you mentioned your number one
Now logan before we started. Filming, yes you said that
you didn't want to put him as your. NUMBERS i
didn't want, To, Okay So i'm going to challenge you
and to challenge, me right because not THAT i disagree
with number, one that it's not that it's NOT i,
MEAN i JUST i really want to dissect what you said,
there so AS i could probably guess number one is From,
(44:02):
Michigan Mason. Graham that's pretty much a consensus universal number, one,
potential top, ten maybe even top. Five ye. Okay and
then you SAID i don't, know and that surprised me
a little. Bit AND i, said well then why did
you put them at your number? One and you're, like ah,
know Well.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
Why so you're not going to find a more consistent
player in this draft. Class AND i think that's ultimately
WHAT i settled.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
On, Right.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Okay he doesn't have the pass rush juice of The
Walter nolans or The Omar Norman. Lots he's not as
physical in the run game necessarily as The Alfred collins
or The Derrek harmon's, right he's not, that But i'll
be damned if he doesn't play every play like he's
about to die on the. Field he's got good. Technique
he's got good quickness and not.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Great see.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Listen this Is i'm saying good a, lot not, great
but good, quickness good, play, strength good. Feel and when
you kind of look at all the, averages there's nothing
that really. Excels like when you Watch norman as a pass,
rush you're, like oh my. God when you Watch williams
as a run, Stop you're, like oh my, god this is.
Incredible everything's like a SOLID c PLUS b minus. Roim
(45:08):
but every single category is like. That the way he
pursues the, football his football, instincts like it's all. There
so like when he reminds me a little bit of
Like Joe alt last, Year LIKE i didn't Love Joe,
aalt but he was going to be a good. Pro
right how good of a? PRO i didn't know BECAUSE
i was worried about athletic upside and. Ceiling that's KIND
i feel About mason. Gram he's going to be a good,
(45:29):
pro but is he going to ever be like a
Top like when you take a guy in the top,
five you're looking for a game, changing game wrecking type,
player And i'm not sure he fits that, bill you,
know like when you compare him To fisk from last,
year for, Example, fisk when we watch him at The Senior,
bowl the, quickness the, balance it showed up every. Play
(45:49):
he was penetrating in the team drills and, here like
there's times where he goes real quiet for a long,
time real, quiet not very disruptive when there's other, Guys
like they're in the back of the, lot they're making,
plays they're throwing guys on the, ground they're you, know
like The collins. Man like we talked about every, player
like this guy is a problem right, Now he's not
(46:09):
gonna pay all the. Time Mason graham does not come
off the field very, rarely Right he's playing the whole.
Time so that's kind of where, again like he just
was so, consistent and as much AS i wanted to
put someone else ahead of, HIM i couldn't justify it
because the level of consistency was so.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
GOOD i just.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Worry that this is this is who he's going to
be in THE, nfl and that's a good. Player but
when you're drafting a guy top, five you want a difference,
maker and is he ever going to be that consistent difference?
Maker AND i don't the. Question the answer IS i don't.
Know and that's WHY i was so, Cool LIKE i
was so nervous about putting him. HERE i just couldn't
justify putting else anyone else above, him because he was
(46:46):
just missed your consistency across the.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Board SO i know this is a tough, Question but
where then would you take him if you, want if
you want in the top five or even the top,
ten a difference. Maker and you're, like, well this is
as you, like mitigating, risk nice one, base he's gonna
Be he's going to at least be a. Double these are.
Triple maybe he's on. Run he's at least be a.
Double where do you find that?
Speaker 1 (47:08):
VALUE H so this is a really good. Question AND
i was thinking about this last night WHEN i was
putting this list. Together this would be a better question
like when we do our big, boards you, know like
because when you've watched everybody and you're, like this guy's
a difference, maker this guy's a difference. Playmaker but and
you go good on the, list then you can kind
of get a better feel for what's out. There BUT
i was thinking about, it and If i'm a, team
Like i'm probably Taking Shamir stewart above, Him i'm Taking
(47:30):
Abdual carter above. HIM i might be Taking tetro McMillan above,
him just from a game changing, standpoint, right Taking Travis
hunter probably above, him and then you kind of so
that's four people right, there and AGAIN i think it
helps him if there's not like a dominant offensive, Line
i'm probably taking Armand membu above. Him so now he's
the sixth, guy, Right SO i think for me comfort,
level i'd probably take him anywhere between fifteen and. Ten like,
(47:54):
SO i think there's probably. TEN i would, assume not
having done a big, board that there's ten players better
than him in this draft. Class but now That i'm
thinking about, it like who else would you put above?
Him you're not Putting Will johnson above, him like you,
know you're not putting so like as you go, through you're,
like maybe six is exactly where he's supposed to, be
and that's still like a top five draft, pick you.
Know SO i think this kind of speaks to that
(48:14):
thing we were talking about the beginning of the show
where the top of this draft class there's not a
lot of blue chip guys that are like franchise, changing
and so maybe you're okay with a guy who's going
to be a really good starter in THE, nfl but
maybe not never like an all pro you, Know Aaron
donald type.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Guy, yeah, hey, Look Mason graham has heavy and violent,
Hands he's nimble and fluid pass rush moves, right he's
got a, motor he plays. Nasty yeah he looks, small
but you said before we even, started he's been doing
this for four.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Years and so that's maybe that's the. Thing it's, like
as much as you want someone who's going to like
light your hair on, fire like he's he's a, double
he's a at the least.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
At the least a.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Double AND i, think, like, again be a little bit Of,
Joel like he's just a good. Prospect AND i think
like that's something in the scouting community and probably me
PERSONALLY i have to get better at like that's.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Good, yeah that's that's.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
Fine and that's kind of WHERE i am at on
and he's just a good, Player like if he's if
he's A washington, Commander like you're doing, backflip because he's
going to be playing in THE nfl for ten years
and he's going to do the right stuff and he's
going to be a part of your defense and play
hard every play and, again can he develop a little
bit as a pass?
Speaker 2 (49:24):
RUSHER i hope, So but that's WHAT i.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
WAS i think that was maybe the most surprising thing
is he didn't have like a super consistent pass. Rush
kind of go to feel now a little. Bit that's
the defense he's playing. In but that's kind of HOW
i feel about. Him and that's my, list And i've
actually like this is one of the better LISTS i
feel about BECAUSE i feel LIKE i watched a lot
of guys for. THIS i feel LIKE i have a
very good feel for the position group AND i think
all these, guys at least these top ten, guys like
(49:48):
they'd make your team.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
Better right, now all, right for the, Nerds we're going
to throw out four more, names just, names because a
lot of people listen to these shows to hear names
that are maybe not the same ones you hear over
and over again With top tens all the. Time so
we're gonna give you some guys that, well maybe they go.
Higher we don't. Know the draft is, unpredictable but it's
going to be middle round guys. Potentially So i'm going to.
(50:09):
Start and the REASON i want to start is BECAUSE
i really really like talking about this. Guy he was
the very first GUY i. WATCHED i immediately texted. You
he got me juice to watch as rest of this,
class and IT'S Jj, Pegas Peggy, PEGGY i thinkas, YEAH
i think It's pegas From. Mississippi he was six to
two and a half three hundred and nine pounds and
(50:32):
this this dude just he started his career as a tight.
END i looked him. Up he started his career.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
As already nine and twenty twenty, three, right.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Yeah, yeah and he moved the defensive. Line so he's technically.
Raw but this dude is, huge and he is athletic
for his, size and there's just he has he just
moves so. Well he has he's laughably, ATHLETIC i, think
and short area of. Quickness he has a spin move that's,
(51:02):
Great like it's just, yeah he plays, tall he's, raw
and he has looks like maybe adequate, power but, man
he's just fun to, watch and there's something there when
you have guys that are just this.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Athletic and it was weird watching him because his combine
numbers are just, man you, know you ran like a
five to. One his arm lengths, Okay but then you
watch them versus LIKE i forget where they were playing
old miss VERSUS lsu and he's doing like a cross
shop on our, Guy Will, campbell you know WHAT i,
mean and you like and that takes a lot Of
we talked about the dance of pass. Rush he's got
(51:36):
the dance of pass, rush, Right he's like doing a
S lin stunt and ricochets off the center and gets
a tackle for a. Loss you're just, like dude just
kind of makes plays and has a good feel for,
football and he's just.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
Motor, yeah he's kind of.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
A, ballplayer you.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Know like, again nothing crazy about his measurables or anything like,
that but the rhythm of his play the athleticism that
comes with.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
THAT i was pleasantly.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
Surprised AND i don't remember where he fell on my final,
list BUT i think he was like, eleven maybe, twelve
so he was really.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
Close, yeah this is the type of guy that when
you start getting into the middle in later, rounds you're, like,
man this dude just loves. Football think you can just.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Tell and he played full running back.
Speaker 3 (52:12):
Round, yeah he did some running back wildcut. Stuff you
told me that right. BEFORE i looked at some highlights
right before he, started and, yeah the dude just he's
just a football Football JOHNNY jj.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
Football at the, combine he worked out his tight end
and as a, fullback you, know they did fullback drills
and he caught the ball. Afterwards and for a man
that big to be moving like, that you're just, like, yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:31):
Yeah he's not going to be your tight end and
he's not going to be your. Fullback but but like
in situation you run him at the goal. Line that
like a commander's access Year jade And daniel's first touchdown
went To Trent.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
Scott Trent, Scott, yeah maybe it's J j Like alan
Like percard From percard From patrick Krikcard. Card Patrick kricard
From baltimore is a converted defensive. Lineman and so if
you could get a package where you don't have to
carry a fullback or you don't have to carry a
gold goal line tight, end you could do that stuff for.
You that's great, value but very, rhythmic very. Smooth looks
(53:05):
weird on film because he wears number thirty, Nine so
but fun player to, watch all.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
Right who's your first guy here for the?
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Nerds Vernon bhuton is that we're gonna, Say, YEAH i Think.
Bhuton so he wears number forty. Five he plays For.
Texas he's six' five and.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
A HALF he's i think he's like, three fifteen three
seventeen something, like that but thirty five, inch arms kind
of a weird pear, shaped body kind of, wide hipped
but plays with, great length, good athleticism AND what i
mean by good athleticism is for a man of, that
size He can he's got some pass, rush, Ability right
he's more of a penetrator's little stiff in, the hips
so he's never gonna like turn, that corner but can
(53:42):
push the pocket with. The length has a great feel
for like the run. Scheme stuff not as stout as
Like your williams Or your caldwells Or your collins Or your,
harmon's RIGHT but i think he's a starting player or
a rotation let me say a rotational player AT the.
NFL level i will say his balance is a little
bit up and down for ME when i, Watch him
like times he's on, The ground, i'm like why are
on the? Ground here but there's other times where he
(54:02):
plays with great strength and. GREAT intuition i think could
be like a first and second down rotational piece for.
A TEAM and i think about, the commanders, you know
with a later, round pick you know that could fill
a role of kind of a, run stopping bigger body,
type guy and he seems to fit that bill.
Speaker 3 (54:18):
Very, nicely yeah he is a fifth, year senior played
in fifty five games, sixteen starts so he has he
has a little bit under. His belt his stats, aren't
crazy but he's also on a lot of all. Academic,
teams nice so, smart, dude right like a really nice
piece probably in the. Later rounds, All right i'm going
(54:40):
to TALK. About. TJ sanders i got to pull him.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
Up here this is a. Good one This. IS south
i like this guy a, lot actually.
Speaker 3 (54:47):
All right so he HAS he, i think the ability
to become a disruptor at the. Next level he has
speed and an extra gear that he uses to explode in.
The gap so there's something where like he's fast for,
his size but he has an extra like fast and
furious push the, knas button and there's a little explosiveness that,
(55:09):
he uses and he somehow can he gets skinny at
the point of attack and can Kind of maybe maybe
he's just undersized and that's why he can. Do THAT
but i just really like. THIS guy i think it's because,
he's fast he has, nice counters strong, arm. Bunches, flexibility
yeah he's. Probably undersized he's missing that raw power and
(55:31):
doesn't shed his blocks all that great and non. Passing
downs there as the only NEGATIVES that i saw With my.
JESSICA guy i so tell Me where, i'm right tell
Me where. I'm wrong you're.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
The, EXPERT yeah i think he's probably the best pure,
pass rusher like if you're looking for just like a.
Fastball pitter like obviously we talked About omaronman Lot And,
Walter nolan like those guys are higher on the list
because they do both. Really well they play the run,
Decently well they've got a. GOOD feel i will SAY.
T j sanders kind of has similar pass. Rush juice
like he's got a kind of a wider way. Or
(56:01):
moves he looks like a defensive end kind of the
way he moves and. Bounds around he has a terrible
time sitting the. Run right, he like if he's got
his hands, on you he's got. A shot he's got,
long arms got thirty four, inch arms so he can
kind of keep you away and make. A play but
if he's in a, double team if it's a gap scheme,
at him he's kind of, high hipped he's got, really
skinny relatively, skinny legs so he'll get pushed off the spot.
(56:21):
Pretty EASILY and i think that's where he struggles and
where you're kind, of like what's? Your role, because again
you do bring tremendous value as a, pass Rusher but
i'm always worried about guys that are just solely.
Speaker 2 (56:31):
Pass RUSHERS like.
Speaker 1 (56:33):
I think he can develop. INTO more i think you
can get a little. BIT bigger i think you can
get a little. Bit heavier, but AGAIN like i wanted
to put him higher on, the LIST but i think
he had such a hard time with some of the,
RUN stuff i just didn't know where he. Fit now
very productive as a pass very very productive and adds
immediate value. Day one like, rotational guy he just needs
to figure out maybe some, better techniques maybe some more
(56:54):
coaching with how to just improve his as on first.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Second.
Speaker 3 (56:58):
DOWN yeah i really enjoyed, watching, Him right so the
last one for the, Nerds here i'm.
Speaker 2 (57:02):
Gonna, do too is? That, okay okay.
Speaker 1 (57:04):
Yeah Yeah zeke Biggers From georgia tech is an interesting
cup of tea because. He's big, you know he's six,
sixty five. Three twenty he's got an eighty five and
a quarter, inch wingspan so right on the Dot With
alfred collins and.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
RAN well i think he ran like a five.
Speaker 1 (57:20):
FLAT forty i think it was a five point. H
nine so really can Move like ben's decently well for
a man of, that size and it's just kind of a,
physical freak, you know and so.
Speaker 3 (57:32):
Very.
Speaker 1 (57:33):
Technically raw you don't always. See him he's got Thirty
five he had the longest arms of. THE combine i
think it was thirty five and a half inch or
thirty five. And eighth so, freaky big freaky long moves
like a kind of a. Basketball player does flash a,
little bit but you don't see him ever use his
length the way. He should you don't see him use
his athleticism the way. He should he's just kind of
(57:53):
out there and so if there was a guy that,
you're like let's take a developmental shot on a guy
who's got, the frame got, the, movement skills just had
and kind of put it. All together this definitely feels
like a guy in like the, fifth round, sixth round
if he's there that you kind of, just say let's
take a flyer on, some traits, some athleticism, some size
and hopefully.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
We get him with the right coach and they turn
him into an. Absolute maniac, all right who's your?
Speaker 3 (58:14):
Last?
Speaker 1 (58:14):
One, YEAH so i think the name that a lot
of people might be surprised not on Here Is ty Robinson.
From nebraska and the reason he was. VERY close i
think he was again like in, that eleven twelve thirteen
kind of range, for me so very.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
Very close he.
Speaker 1 (58:27):
Tested well at the, combiny right the fastest forty for any,
defensive tackle at the highest vertical john for any. Defensive
tackle and he plays like. HE'S athletic i think the
one thing that really stuck out to me is he's
okay against, the run he's okay AGAINST. The pa as a,
pass rusher he's, wicked stiff wicked stiff in, his hips plays,
really high kind of, high hipped, narrow base and so
(58:49):
he's really just trying to penetrate all.
Speaker 2 (58:50):
The time and when you, do that if people just
punch your hip like you're on, the ground you're moving a.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
Long WAY and i think THAT'S where i think he's
got a lot of name recognition that kind of play,
style SPECIFICALLY because i think people think, Of, him oh
he's The next fisk OR Next. Jj watt he can play,
Inside outside he's not the same level. Of athlete he
doesn't have the same level, of length he doesn't have
the same kind of, play, Style RIGHT and i think
(59:15):
THAT'S where i, would say if you're going to take
a shot, on somebody maybe in, the third fourth round
might be a good Fit for washington because he does
have this inside. Outside flexibility he plays incredibly hard and
kind of as it would be better in a more
penetrating defensive front Like The. Washington commanders but that's why
he's not higher on, the list just for people kind
of looking for.
Speaker 3 (59:35):
That, name logan this is a.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
Good group it's a good.
Speaker 3 (59:38):
Lot, of fun a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (59:39):
To, watch yeah good group, For SURE and i, think
honestly like, for me like top fifteen guys are all
either starters or, you know heavy. Rotational guys so was
really pumped about.
Speaker 3 (59:49):
The class, all, Right, fans well keep, leaving comments keep asking,
us questions keep telling us who you want To hear logan.
RANKED next i think what we're going to do next
is DB's With. FRED smoot, i, think yeah that may.
GET pushed I don't i.
Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Don't, know yeah it's either that or running Backs, s,
yeah exactly he's going, offense defense so this.
Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Is defense we go. Running backs But if, fred's available
We'll get.
Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Fred one We'll get fred. On there but if we
haven't done. Quarterbacks yet there are a couple of ones
that we haven't. Done yet so leave a comment on
what group you want us to to do and specific
players maybe want us to.
Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Talk, about yeah specific players would be. Great, too yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
Because that goes into our nerds category here when you leave.
Those comments so thank you fans for listening and really.
Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
That's it
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