The Legal Line: Breaking Down Consent, Power & Accountability

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm d Mallory and the ship Boy, my son that general.
We are your host of TMI.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Tamika and my Son's Information, Truth, motivation and inspiration.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
New Name, New Energy.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Yes, it was my birthday. We just left my birthday.
Had we just left my birthday. We just ended tourist season,
and tourist season was amazing. It's my birthday, the amazing
Malcolm X. Macael you're listen to me, Malcolm XE the
holiday right like she needed holiday, you know, on one

(00:36):
twenty fifth Street, on Malcolm X's birthday, they shut the
street down from one to four, all of the stores
from I don't know exactly where it starts at, but
all the way from probably like fifth Avenue to like
Saint Nick. They shut all the stores down and then
the doors are open. In respect, out of respect to
Malcolm X. But I think it should be a national holiday,
like he's done so much and what he's meant to

(00:58):
our coach, especially black culture.

Speaker 4 (01:00):
It needs to be a natural.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
But it was beautiful to watch all of these big
storage foot locker and all of these stores closed down
in respect. I was in the gym working out, you know,
in Harlem, and he's likely we shutting down.

Speaker 4 (01:11):
We shutting down. You gotta come back at four o'clock.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
So my tourist brother, Malcolm Mix, we appreciate you, God,
we love you.

Speaker 4 (01:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
And I had a beautiful birthday, had a dinner. Friends
was there, showed a lot of love, beautiful birthday cake.

Speaker 4 (01:26):
Birthday cake was fire. Then Mike that beatcake. Shout to
beat Cake. That Mike with that chain.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
Cake, New York.

Speaker 4 (01:32):
That thing was fire man.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Marriam is over there. She's the owner and she does
a really good job. She's really community oriented. Also, she's
a good chick.

Speaker 4 (01:41):
Dope dope.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Birthday and my next Now, listen that happened. All happened,
and said, listen my birthday. The Knicks clinched to go
to the conference finals the first time in twenty five years.
Shout out to Jameen Brunson, Shout out to call Anthony Towns,

(02:03):
Shout out to the whole team. Man, it was just
a ten.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
You got to see Carmelo.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Then I seen Melo. Yo, listen, this was just a
full circle thing. That the next day, I was at
Afro Preak in Baltimore where I see my brother Carmelo
Anthony and I congratulated him because it's the first time
I seen him since he's been inducted into the Hall
of Fame. Shout out to Carmelo, him around. Listen, Carmelo
is in my top three players of all time, and it's.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
Allan Iverson, Carmelo and Kyrie. These are my favorite three players.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Everybody, anybody who knows me knows that those are the
people I don't play about. And it was before that.
It was Isaiah Thomas. So it was Isaiah, it was
Alan Iverson, and then we went to Carmelo, and now
Kyrie is probably pretty much my favorite because it's it's
soul times.

Speaker 3 (02:55):
But why Carmelo don't play basketball anymore?

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Melo said, I just heard him do an interview the
other day when he was talking about he was supposed
to retire on his twentieth season, you know, he said
he was doing twenty season, that's what he wanted to do.

Speaker 5 (03:09):
But he didn't.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
He retired right at the beginning of his nineteen season
because he said he was going to retire when his
son got into high school because he wanted to focus,
and that was a thing he said, and he said
it was time for.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
Him to just leave the game.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
You know, and he wanted to do it, but he said,
when my son get in high school, that's what I'm done.
And he said it was time for him to do
it because that's the word he gave his son was
like that got had he gave.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
He gave him an extra year.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
He said he actually was going to retire around eighteenth,
but he went an extra year.

Speaker 4 (03:40):
But he didn't get to that twenty. So that was his.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Reasoning for why he didn't finish out his twentieth season.
Lebron is in his twentieth season now, so you know,
just understanding it's a lot the twenties playing basketball at
the level in the NBA for twenty years. There's a
lot of way in tee. He just really wanted to
say he wanted to pour into his son.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
He wanted to.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Definitely gonna be big time. He's one of the top
players in the nation, so shut out to him. Man.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
It was just a beautiful experience.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
And and the Knicks is in the finals, like just watching
them win and it was a blowout.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
Boston got smacked. Smacked in the garden, you know what
I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
We was like right down the block, we in the
chop house and he was getting smacked in the garden,
so the whole city was just lit up.

Speaker 4 (04:28):
It was just a beautiful time, man, you know.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
And I'm just happy for the next trying to see
if we can get some seats somewhere, maybe in the
nosebleed something. I just want to be in the garden
just to feel that energy. So anybody who got a
ticket for me, lesson, I'm here my birthday. The game
is actually tonight, you know, and I got my Knicks
stuff on. I'm gonna be out there, probably scoy buys.
You got a ticket, I do gonna need anything. I'm

(04:50):
still taking presents for my birthday. So if you got
some Nick tickets, hit me up there. It's gonna be
too late. I'll gonna see this too late. But anyway,
I'm gonna be out there anyway. And by the time
this is you're gonna be like.

Speaker 5 (05:01):
Wow, the next is gonna kill.

Speaker 4 (05:03):
So the next don't kill. So love them the Knicks.
What you got to say.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
I'm very happy. Of course, I'm from New York. It's
New York. We would it love it amazing. You don't
know anything that be going on. I know, a little bit,
a little bit a little bit, a little bit of basketball.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
I used to have season tickets. I used to go
to basketball games all the time. And uh so, now
what I do is I clap when everybody else clap,
and then I'm in the mix, and that's it.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
I'm happy. Yay Go New York brings me to my
thought of the day.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
So on a more serious note, I was thinking about,
you know, and I'm I think one of the things
that I pray God has given me that makes me
a leader and a better person every day. It's not
that I always make the right decisions. It's not that
I always see things the right way, and it's not

(06:01):
that I don't live my life like everybody else, which
is in contradiction, right Like I always say that to
you that I feel like we have to acknowledge it
though that you know what, I don't see this the
same way that I would if you were not my friend,
or you were not somebody that I admire or you know,

(06:23):
or if it didn't benefit me in some way. I
you know, and we have to acknowledge that. It's not
that it will change the outcome will change how you feel,
but it will at least keep you honest to yourself,
you know, And I think that's and I think that's
really important, and so on each one of the situations
that I'm bringing up, I have various feelings myself, right,

(06:49):
you know, I am deeply crushed by the entire situation
with Puff and Cassie and this whole case. I'm comp
completely crushed by it. Listening to or reading testimony hurts.
I'll never be able to unsee the video. Having somebody

(07:09):
as influential as Puffed, somebody who I have a very
good relationship with, end up in the situation that he's in,
is painful, you know. Knowing that those kids could lose
their father for life in terms of him being in prison.
I mean, it's so many dynamics that a person who

(07:31):
is a little more up close. I'm not in the house,
so it's not that, but a person a little bit
more up close that spent a lot of time talking
to you and you know, working with you in different things.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
It hurts.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
It hurts, And that's all I say. People are like, oh,
what are you that it hurts? You know, And I
think that people believe that when we are public figures,
that we're not human. Some stuff just hurts. I don't
even know what to say, right, You don't even know
the right words to use, except to say that it

(08:07):
hurts and everything that is playing out in this trial.
When it's your friend and somebody you love that is
being accused of some really really horrific things, you can
literally just say, this is very painful.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
It is very painful.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
And to the extent that any of this stuff is true,
which I am absolutely inclined to believe that some part
of it is, that's even more painful, right, And so
I just have to keep reminding people of that because
I see folks in my comments and my dms, why
are you not saying anything about this or that? I

(08:45):
don't know where y'all what y'all consider to be friendships.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Like I'm not getting ready to go out here and
be in the free Diddy T shirt, right, Like that's
not something that you will see happen. But I'm also
a human person that has the right to say that
as a that it takes a lot to process, especially
when you've never witnessed this side of a human being

(09:11):
that you care about, and then these are the things
that's being stated about them, Like I don't know why
people don't understand enough to say. It's like a mother
who finds out that her child or hears that her child,
her child is being accused of killing three people and
doing all this stuff. You could be like, damn, this
is really messed up. But if you're expecting the mother

(09:32):
to come outside and be like, oh, you know, I
hate my child, that gener really doesn't really happen. And
so I have to put that at the forefront. I
don't want people to think that I'm afraid, or that
you know, I'm I'm naive, or or any of that.
You know, I think that's important. I want to be honest,

(09:53):
so I think that's important. So that's one. It's Cassie right,
one woman that I want to reference is my thought today.
Then you have Hailey Bailey and DDG, which Haley Bailey
hasn't said anything right, but in that situation, I don't
know either one of them, but I love both of them.

(10:13):
I think they're so cute, you know, cute kids, and
I pray for both of them. But I can tell
you that having a son at that age, you feel like, damn,
understanding everything. We done have fights as young people, fighting
and carrying on do you want to see this young
boy's entire life fall apart because of an incident that

(10:37):
none of us were Therefore, we don't know exactly what happened,
and it's possible that he was abusive, right, it's possible
if that's what she said, it's possible that she he was.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
It's also it also.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
Could be that he you know, they got into it
back and forth and he pushed or did whatever he did,
which is something that generally would be behind closed doors
and we would never know and you wouldn't lose your
job or whatever as a result of it. Then you
have the situation with Meg and Tory, which I have
very very strong views about a lot of things around

(11:12):
that situation. Right, So, when I think about my own
personal contradictions, the way that I can move through various
feelings depending on who the people are and what the
situation is, I really have to ask myself, how is

(11:34):
it that three different women in one week are telling
their stories of abuse or harm and all three of
them have been considered to be liars by a large,
large group of folks. How is it that three different
women tell their stories and I'm not saying it's the

(11:59):
whole word, because I'm sure they are more people who
believe them and support them, but there is a large
movement that as soon as some of these women speak,
the world says didn't happen.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
I understand exactly what you're saying, but I think it's
relative to where we're looking for the information. Right when
we look in social media. Social media is a cess
pool of negativity, you know, especially in the social media
we look at, they demonize women and black women all
the time, no matter what they say.

Speaker 4 (12:30):
Right.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
But I think if we look at a large scale,
there are many people, like you said, there are many
people that say this had to happen, or we believe
these people.

Speaker 4 (12:41):
So there's going to be when you put something in.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
A court of public opinion, everybody's bringing their own biases, right,
Like you said, based on your situations. Some people are
DDG fans, some people are Halle fans, right, so they
both their fans are gonna be like, oh, he's lying,
she's lying, So that's what's gonna happen.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
I don't know if it's all fans either, my son.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
I think that there are there is there is there
are people who might not even know DDG didn't care
nothing about Torri. Maybe they know Puff, maybe they don't.
Maybe they like him, maybe they don't, but they are
instinctively conditioned to say that if these women, if these

(13:23):
men are in any kind of trouble because of what
these women say, that is to bring a black man down.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
Well, I don't I don't think that in Puff. I
think Puff has lost in the court of public opinion.
I think he was demonised immediately after the videotape. Come people,
he lost all support. You don't you don't see anybody.
I don't see one person publicly.

Speaker 4 (13:46):
I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (13:47):
Now all of a sudden, you got Boozy and different
people because.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Basing off evident things that he's listening to, he's basically
saying that, based on this evidence that happened here, did
I see it looked like Cassie was involved than the
same shit that we and a lot of people look
and say she might. She did not deserve to be beat.
You know, we don't know the level of controls yet,
but when based off just relationships that the average man
has with a woman, if and were looking at these

(14:15):
the level of communication that they had, it looked like
two people that was engaged in the swinger lifestyle, you know,
and that's how they lived.

Speaker 4 (14:22):
It was toxic. He was abusive to us. He beat
her ass.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
And that's one hundred percent wrong. But nobody most people
don't believe that he was forcing her to engage in sex.
They just and there are people who say that she did.
They believe she did. He controlled her mind. But there's
gonna be a dynamic of people that say that they
don't believe it.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
But that's okay, Well that's fine, and that situation. You know,
there are going to be people who say that she
was definitely a willing participant in all of that.

Speaker 3 (14:51):
So we're not going there.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
But as long as people understand, I think that's why
it's important that the guests that we have coming up
today that he's not being charge of forcing her to
have sex per se.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
That is not the.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
Center of but those are the criterias under with sex
trafficking is it's either cohersion or.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
Force cohersion and that and that cohersion is very very.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
Danced, it's nuanced.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Cohersion means that you didn't want to do it, and
I convinced you beyond outside of your normal realm. I
did something to put you in a position or or
inspire you or motivate you that was to do something
that was against your business.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
But I'm not sure. I'm not sure which we'll have
to get into. But I'm not sure if sex trafficking
is only about force, because I think that a person
could be a willing participant, but if they are paid.
That's why I keep trying to tell people that Cassie
is well, she was paid to have but that's not
what we see. Everybody continues We're looking at that case

(16:04):
the wrong way because everybody is continuing to say she
he didn't pay her this and the third that is
not what he's being accused of. Right, sex trafficking might
extend beyond Cassie to whether or not sex workers are
part of that.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
We don't know.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
We have to wait and see what is at the
end result and throughout well each.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
Because when I was because I want to know if.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
The indictment is saying that he sex traffic Cassie, or
he sex trafficked these other people. If he's saying as
he tracks sex trafficked her, if she was one of
the victims of sex trafficking.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
It might see where people feel like it's definitely they
don't see it. I see what you're saying on that,
but I do think that I do think that sex
trafficking from what I read, because I really have been
trying to understand because I know that our instincts, depending
on our experiences, like as a as a survivor of

(17:08):
domestic abuse, sexual abuse, my instincts sometimes can be my
instincts can take me in a direction that facts don't
even matter. You get what I'm saying, because I just
know what I've what I it's a trigger. But then
sometimes again that's what I'm saying. I want to be
very clear about the contradiction that your it's like your

(17:31):
body goes through many many things because just hearing it
makes you be like, oh my god, like I can't
even fathom this, and and and facts don't matter. But
then when you know somebody, you begin to say, well,
I don't see them that way. You know what I'm saying,
So you go through all of that. But I'm just
saying when I saw in order to temper my own mindset,

(17:53):
I've been reading and in sex trafficking, the prostitute can
tell you I'm with it, but if they got paid
and moved through state a state, moved to another state
that is trafficking, and so you know, I don't know,
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
I don't know if that's if this prostitute was strictly
for the use of sex and you're paying her to
have sex.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Or he or him or whatever. But y'all will say
it never happens. You never hear when a man thing.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
Okay, that's not even no, no women.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
You wanted somebody to pull up that women have been
accused of sex trafficking and they have, I mean and
convicted of young boys.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yes, oh yeah, that has happened.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
But anyway, let's let me get my so my thought
of the day is specifically around the idea that there
are three women who all three of them are telling
their stories of abuse, and there's a large group of
people in our society who instinctively have said that these

(19:05):
women are lying or exaggerating their situations. And I wonder
right whether or not we are fostering an environment where
women will just completely stop telling their stories.

Speaker 4 (19:23):
That's very that's a very serious thing.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
And I know men ain't gonna tell their story because
we don't even believe men can say they were sexually assaulted.
People don't believe it, people laugh at men, people tell
you don't say it, and.

Speaker 3 (19:36):
It's really hard.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
It's so hard to reconcile all of that when you
know that, you know, women have are often accused of
lying or whatever. You deal with that, and then at
the same time you want to believe women.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
It's like, who is so much?

Speaker 1 (19:56):
And you want to protect the brothers because you got
the brothers who are like yo, they always you know,
take us down or whatever. It's so many dynamics and
I just wonder if there are which I believe, I
know there are women out there who are just like
you know what, I was thinking about saying this happened
to me or he did this to me. But I

(20:19):
think I'll just be quiet. And some people will say, well,
that's a good thing because it'll stop folks from lying
and you know, from making up stories on people or
exaggerating stories. But is that what we want for our daughters.
I don't know how. I don't know how. I don't
have an answer to this. I just know that it's
very problematic when people can look and see where if

(20:43):
these women are all not believe that they are all
lying they're all fabricating, they're all whatever. Then I don't
have a chance, So I might as well just be
quiet and just take my abuse on the chin or
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
I mean, I want anyone who's been assaulted, who's had
you know, someone take advantage of them, to be able
to feel comfortable coming forward, you know. But at the
same time, you don't want that to be weaponized against
men if they're not engaging in that activity. So we
just gotta find you know, we got to find a
way to be able to sipher out the truth and

(21:20):
be able to and it's it's it's very hard, right
because it's people like you saying, prior to you watching,
did he on on the camera putting his hands on
Cassie or or getting any information?

Speaker 4 (21:33):
This is not the person you know, right? You know
that's not did you know? You know? This kind person,
funny person who embraced you, should you love?

Speaker 3 (21:40):
So that's what we all, we all are you want
to believe.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
And that's what we all face with every time we're
faced with, especially when you look at lodging life individuals.
We're faced with the fact like, nah, this can't be
this person because this is my favorite rapper, this is
my favorite basketball He couldn't be that type of person
because we have this image of those individuals in our minds,
so we want to give them a benefit of doubt.

Speaker 4 (22:03):
You know.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
We don't want to believe that our favorite singer would
lie about somebody putting their hands on them. We want
to believe so that everybody wants to believe. And in
the court of public opinion, that's what it is. But
in the reality it's based off when these situations happen,
it's a case that goes to court and right and
they have to draw out the facts and they have

(22:24):
to come to terms of what.

Speaker 4 (22:25):
The reality of that all is. So we're as.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
Human beings, We're always going to have our personal you know,
preference in our biases and who we love and who
we don't like, and we're gonna demonize some and we're
gonna make other ones angels.

Speaker 4 (22:38):
That's just the reality of what it is.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
I just hope that we get comfortable we're using discernment
looking at facts, you know, just being careful to just
put things on individuals without seeing any facts, and then
being able to look at the facts and come to
a conclusion. Even in that conclusion. Understand that your conclusion
might be wrong. The courts might get it wrong. We

(23:00):
might demonize somebody and the course might come back with
evidence to say, oh, we were wrong about this. It's
people that's been convicted of murdering people and all types
of hanging his crimes, and they come back with DNA
and be like, oh, this person never did that.

Speaker 4 (23:12):
And so we're never gonna all get it right.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
But we just have to give people levels of grace.
We have to give people levels to understanding. We got
to understand our own biases, you know. We got to
in turn and be very aware and understand that people
don't see things the same way that you see it.
There's gonna be somebody that person did it, and you're
gonna be like, no, why did you get it? And
based off their own, you know, interpretations and their own experiences,

(23:37):
they're going to draw a conclusion because this girl might
have said the same exact shit that happened to you,
and you might be like, nah, know that that that's
something I've seen And God might say the same shit
that happened to me and I'm like, yall, remember girl
that that that shit is crazy? Like they did so
we all are using our own internal, you know, situations.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
To put there whatever.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
You exactly to put the reality of what's going on
in front of us. And we have to understand that's
what we're doing.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
But I also never want to get to a place
in my life it's a real like I love this
about me. The forty five means really thinking deep, deep, deep,
deep deep, and challenging self and I live to tell
the story. My memoir does a lot of that. I
never want to get to a place where I'm not
also standing ten toes down and supporting our brothers, knowing

(24:28):
that the system does railroad us as a people and
particularly black men. But at the same time I always
want to be in a posture that no matter how
much I know you, how no matter you know how
much I may love you, no matter whether I admire
you from a distance, think you cute, or whatever, that

(24:50):
I can still listen to and that's not just for
men women, Also that I can still listen to things
and be able to say without hesitation that this is
just wrong, and.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
You should be able to say that. I'm ended by
saying this, right. I have friends, people that I love
dearly do that that have hurt people, that have shot people,
that have killed people, that all these things, and I
love them to death. You know, they went did their time,
they've been you know, they've been held accountable for it,
and they came home and they changed their lives. Right,

(25:31):
And that's what grace is. That's understanding the reality of life.
And when we look at the situations, any of these situations,
none of these people took anyone's life right, and we
might hate what they did, but they're not irredeemable, right,
And that's that's what right now, when we look at
did these situations.

Speaker 3 (25:53):
They would never look at Cassie, she's disgusting.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
They've lived the life, they have things that they've done
in their life. And when we look at even the
last few years, did he did he look like he
was doing self reflection? I don't know, because once again
we don't know, so prior to what he was doing,
he might have been, like he said, he was in
a dark place. And and I want to give him
the grace to say, damn, maybe you maybe you do

(26:20):
recognize what you did wrong.

Speaker 4 (26:21):
Maybe you did.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
I don't know, but I understand that he's not irredeemable
because I have friends and people that I love who
have taken people's lives, and I love them and I
would sacrifice my life.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
For them right now. I mean, he.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Needs to be held accountable and when he does the work,
and his accountability comes for what it is. But if
somebody took somebody's life and they home free, did he
shouldn't be have to do life?

Speaker 4 (26:46):
And well, I just don't. I just don't say that.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
I guess where you and I differ because taking people's
lives can be looked at in a lot of ways.
Just because a person is breathing doesn't mean they still
have life. Sometimes the decisions that we make can take
more from folks you know, can can can. I'm not
saying that they can't overcome it. I'm just saying that

(27:11):
there's certain things that you could do.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
And I'm not.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
Talking about, oh, you cheated or you lied or this.
I'm not talking about that. I'm saying there's some actions,
especially when you are physically abusive to another individual, that
can destroy parts of them right physically and mentally. So
I guess what I'm saying is I struggle with being

(27:34):
able to get past physical violence against anybody, but particularly
against women.

Speaker 3 (27:40):
That's a hard like that.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
You know, we all have we all have these different
red lines, and when it comes it's like Gaza, there
are people who are like, oh, well, I can't be
more concerned about what's happening in Gaza when Brooklyn is
an issue. Now, Brooklyn is damn an issue. Brooklyn, Bronx,
you know, Saint Louis. There's so many places where our

(28:04):
people are suffering and caged, inn and starving and being
killed in many different ways. And if you really want
to keep it a thousand, it's a genocide that happens
against black people every single day in this nation. But
I still have to look at the bombs bursting in
the air and say that I feel or I have

(28:27):
a sensitivity that that's a red line for me.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
And there's nothing wrong with that. But I'm just saying
you have to understand that there are some people that
is not any situation. You do understand that some people
are going to say, Dann, that was messed up and
this and that, but this person is.

Speaker 4 (28:41):
Not completely responsible for that.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
It's going people that have shot somebody or done something
and somebody's gonna say I love that person and the
work that that person is doing, and the way that
person is growing, I feel like I want to embrace
that person.

Speaker 4 (28:53):
I want to get that person another shot. And that's
how life is. Your red line might be somebody's white line.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, well, well I don't want to be around nobody
who they're white men, and.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
You shouldn't want to be around that is Trump. I
don't want to be they love Trump, and this reality
is it is cool and it's other people.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Oh, come on, politicians separate to me, it does and
that's just my reality.

Speaker 3 (29:16):
I agree. I agree. So there's that, there's life.

Speaker 1 (29:19):
But I think as long as we are honest about
our feelings and where we stand in these things that
you know, at least we can begin to move our
communities further by dialogue that is painful and difficult. It's
like sexual assault. Excuse me, it's like abuse in the household.

(29:40):
You know, people don't really like to talk about it.
But the only way to correct it is to root
it out. You got to bring it up, like, hey,
this is something that's going on. So I'm not telling
people go tell your personal business. Put all your business street,
because beyonest with you, these people on this internet, they
don't care nothing about your life. They don't want to
help you, they don't want to support you. They just
want your gossips and then they can go take that
and mix it with some other gossip and then that's it.

(30:02):
They just have a great time gosspend about you, and
you don't never know nothing about what's going on their
personal life because they learned a long time ago not
to tell you about their personal life because they don't
want anybody to see that. So that's not what I'm saying.
I'm just saying that we as influencers and people who
have folks who listen to us, people really want to know,
like what does it feel like to like experience all

(30:24):
these things? And I think we have a responsibility to
unpack it. So there's that. Now on to the TMI.
I think people are doing too much on this, but
some people might not feel that way. So New York
City Housing Authority is opening applications for employment. That's the

(30:45):
projects where I grew up. They are opening applications for
employment to people who have no educational background. And I
sat for hours and read the comments section. And when
I tell you that the classism and social media between

(31:08):
the upper blacks and the lower blacks is serious, Okay,
because all these people people I know, because you know,
you can see your own people when they make comments.
That's you know, those comments stick out. Oh that's ridiculous.
That's what's wrong with our society. That's what's wrong with
the projects any way. And that and you don't gotta

(31:31):
have no education, and this and that and the third
and you.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
Could get an education for free.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
And we should never be given jobs to people with
no education. And I think that's I personally think that, Like,
I don't agree.

Speaker 3 (31:48):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
I think that's a little bit too much that just
because a person doesn't have formal education that that means
they are not capable of having a job.

Speaker 4 (31:59):
I don't think.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
I don't think get mezed and not cable. I think
what it is is they want to understand that somebody
has applied themselves to something, has acquired some certain levels
of degrees to where it shows that they're disciplined to something.
But I think it should be based on the merit
of whatever the job that you want to do. Right,
if if you can show me or I'll give you

(32:20):
a trial and you can do the job, and you
don't have an education or formal education. Then cool that
some people who have integrated from down South and people
who didn't have the education, didn't have the roads to
be able to be educated, so they came here looking for.

Speaker 4 (32:35):
A different life.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
They've been working with their hands their whole life. They
they know how to sweep, they know they know how
to do to certain things.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
They know how to fix cars cars because they grew up.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
They grew up with father, uncle's aunt.

Speaker 4 (32:47):
And I think those people should get the opportunities to
do it.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
I think, But I don't think they're saying they're going
to give you a job if you don't have any skills.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
And that's the way it sound.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Skills and education is two different things. I think skills
it should be skills over education because obviously we live
in an era, in a time where Donald Trump is
the president.

Speaker 4 (33:05):
There's nothing off anybody can do anything. That's just the Bible.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah, but he doesn't do it well, but it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
But these people voted and they love him. So if
you try to tell me that Donald Trump could be
the president, then somebody with no formal education could work
for the housing.

Speaker 5 (33:21):
That's it.

Speaker 1 (33:22):
Well, there's that. I think housing. I think new York
City Housing Authority. They got to do a lot of
internal work though on because what will happen is that
these people who are classified as no education or low
education will be treated as such.

Speaker 4 (33:36):
As the thing is, the reason.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
Why they did that is because they've been hiring those people.
Because when you was looking at housing and the people
that was doing sweeping and mopping and all that, dumb
people that have no education, they knew somebody and they
was ready to do the job better than anybody else.
A lot of people was not educated. They wasn't educated.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
Well, I get that.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
I'm saying that people who are classified in the group
of no education or low education are easier. No, they're
easier to be discriminated against and mistreated because you need
your job and so I could talk to you any
kind of way. I could, you know, treat you any
kind of way. So I think that there has to

(34:16):
be provisions where that's being monitored that they don't become
the lower class slavemen or enslaved. So I do think that, However,
I applaud if they do it properly. I applaud the
New York City Housing Authority for given opportunities to people
who are boxed out of so many places because they

(34:38):
don't have a paper to prove themselves. I just supplored
them for that, so you know, no, so do I
understand what some people are concerned about.

Speaker 3 (34:49):
But I will also challenge.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
People to think that if this individual who's living in
your buildings, by the way, you can't go to certain schools,
you can't do this, I mean access to education. And
it's not as easy as people think you say it is.
But there's some folks out here and they don't even know,
you know, if the application process is intimidating, or they've
been you know, caught up in various situations, maybe coming

(35:12):
out of prison.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
It's a lot of things.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
And the question is if they can't get work somewhere,
then what you think they're gonna be doing?

Speaker 2 (35:23):
And that let's go to our would guess our lawyer,
our lawyer, our lawyer, our brother. He gonna give us
some insight today.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
So as usual, we have one of our friends, well,
as you said last time, more of a brother than
a friend to us.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
And you know that we need him. We need T
and I.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
On our show, we often bring a lot of our
friends and people who are doing incredible work in the
community across the country. And this brother is no different. Uh,
he is our attorney first of all. First of all,
so I don't know because if you are the brother
is there's still attorney client privilege.

Speaker 4 (36:10):
If you're married.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeh okay, So we just got to know that we
need to know the law anyway. And so Royce is
our attorney first of all. He's family to us, but
he has been with us through many, many circumstances and situations,
including the work that we engage in out in the community,

(36:34):
fighting for families like Ramalley Graham who was killed by
police officers in the Bronx in his home and right
in front of his grandmother, something we've never been able
to get over as a community. And Royce has been
involved in a bunch of other cases. But he's also
does some corporate work, keeps us out of trouble, make

(36:55):
sure our paperwork is in order. So when we say
we know Attorney Royce Russell, we know Attorney Royce Russell.
I think the most impressive side of your life is
being an attorney to many people who we won't name
them now, but being a criminal defense attorney in private

(37:15):
practice today. However, you are a prosecutor on the state
and federal level in New York, and so you have
a lot of pieces of things you got your hand
and a lot of different pots. Attorney Royce Russell, and
we appreciate you for coming to the TMI show today,
but more than that, we just appreciate you for being
our friends.

Speaker 4 (37:35):
For having any shop too. You see you see that
that boys shop.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
Yes, that's what he does.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
He's a fashion fashion attorney. But you know, I feel
like you started a trend in the fashion thing.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
Think no, I know.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
Because I remember some of the other attorneys not really
dressing as well as you do. Because you know, I
grew up around the attorneys. I done been around many
attorneys and preachers are two things that I to groups
of people I know well. And you would started with
the bow ties and the whole thing and making everything

(38:09):
sharp and match really well. And then I started to
see other cats getting into it as well.

Speaker 5 (38:14):
You know, it was a shocking to the federal system.
The federal system is blue and gray and black.

Speaker 6 (38:21):
So now you come in with a ce a sucker
suit that's red or green, or you got pink and green,
and they're like what's going on, like what's happening?

Speaker 5 (38:31):
And they sometimes they have no choice but just.

Speaker 6 (38:34):
Compliment you because you're doing the work. Because you're doing
the work, it doesn't it doesn't impede how you proceed.
It just it's who you are.

Speaker 3 (38:44):
Do you suggest your clients show up pink?

Speaker 6 (38:48):
Oh no, we show up sharp because you're a reflection
of me. Right, we have to set a stage. Right,
it's about setting a narrative, because what the judge sees
is what's on the paper. We're trying to set a
visual narral and we want you to buy into that narrative.

Speaker 5 (39:02):
Now we're not selling you anything, but we want you
to look at this narrative. He has respect, she has respect.

Speaker 6 (39:08):
We're here today, we're gonna deal with what we have
to deal with. We're looking straight, We're not with our
hands folded behind our back. We're not looking down.

Speaker 4 (39:18):
That's just the rules, you know, being on.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
Try to understand those things right when you when you
have a lawyer that is understands those dynamics. I didn't
have a lawyer. I didn't have a lawyer to understood
those that even explain those things to me. So you
in there and you you don't understand how the jury
is looking at you. You don't understand how the judge
is looking at you. And when you they think you
lack respect or you you got your hands behind your back.

(39:48):
Is a level of submission like you admitting that you
have some level of all these things you don't know
you know, and you're a young boy, and you scared
for your life in the court room and you don't
have a lawyer to give you these jewels. You understand
how your perception actually is reality?

Speaker 4 (40:04):
Is your reality?

Speaker 5 (40:06):
Be talking about corporate court etiquette. We're on trial. I
don't need for you to do a lot of writing
and a lot of hitting me. What that reflective you?

Speaker 2 (40:15):
Reflects that you're scared and you feel like some sense
then they said something that might reflect you or make
you look right.

Speaker 5 (40:24):
That's important.

Speaker 6 (40:25):
So now if I'm sleeping and I see you feverously
do something as a juror, now I'm paying attention to
what's going on here.

Speaker 5 (40:32):
I might have been daydreaming.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
They didn't even hear it.

Speaker 5 (40:34):
But people are people. They come in with problems, they come.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
In with things, not wanting to be there anyway.

Speaker 6 (40:40):
They come in right and the only thing you have
to do is alert their attention to where their focus
should be. And as soon as you hit me to
the left or write the note and give it to me,
and then I got to say stop doing it. And
then you see this conversation going on. Well, I'm like,
don't do that, and that person is talking. Now I'm
missing that. I'm talking to you.

Speaker 5 (40:59):
The perception is something that's important here and.

Speaker 6 (41:02):
You don't like it, meaning the defendant doesn't like it?
Or why are you giving mister Russell a hard time defendant?
You see how sharp is he?

Speaker 4 (41:12):
Nice?

Speaker 5 (41:13):
He said hello in the morning, he picked it. I
remember it.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Like we like him, but not to show up, you know.

Speaker 5 (41:19):
What I'm saying. We like him and I like to
be liked, so you like me.

Speaker 6 (41:24):
Because sometimes it's the facts, or is the person that's
relaying the facts, And sometimes the person that's relaying the
facts can overcome, can will a victory doesn't happen a
lot in federal court, but it could happen when you
will a victory. I like what he's saying. I like
what he's doing. I see how he manipulated the facts.

Speaker 5 (41:45):
He seemed like a good dude.

Speaker 6 (41:47):
His client is sitting there calm, cool and collective.

Speaker 5 (41:51):
You be surprised.

Speaker 6 (41:52):
We hear all these stories about correction officers and those
in law enforcement, how they mingle with the inmates. You
be surprised with you is how they may for fanhasize
over the fact that, look, that guy doesn't look that bad.
You know, that guy looks like he's he's a good,
good dude, or she's a good person. And they hear
the facts because I think real, deep down, real, real

(42:13):
deep down, people want to do good. They may not
always do good, but they want to do good and
they don't want to go home with I'm the.

Speaker 5 (42:21):
Cause of doing A or B. And so if you
can present a package.

Speaker 6 (42:29):
That is formidable, that is respectful, then that meets them
a little bit of the way.

Speaker 5 (42:36):
Don't get any false hope hopes.

Speaker 6 (42:37):
It meets them a little bit of the way, not
all the way, because the facts are the facts.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
So we brought you here, Royce, because you know there's
this big case with with Diddy, you know, right, and
so we've read testimony from Dawn, We've read testimony from Cassie,
and a lot of people are confused right when you
look at what he's being charged with. Rico sex trafficking,
and a lot of people like, how is this sex trafficking?

(43:05):
How is this a rico?

Speaker 4 (43:06):
How can you have a rico case when it's only
one defender? How is it?

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Like I've never heard of rico where there aren't other
people involved in sex trafficking. It looks like I don't
even understand how this is even sex trafficking if they're
in a relationship, and we don't know the answers, right,
So what we decided is that we were going to
call our lawyer, our good friend who understands the law
and can give us a breakdown, to not say whether
it's guilty or innocent, but just give where the premise

(43:32):
of these charges come from and how they actually make
some level of sense.

Speaker 6 (43:36):
All right, So before we can even get into, you know,
juries and trying the actual case, we all know that
there is an indictment, and in the indictment, that's what
was presented to the grand jury. So before we can
even discuss the trial, it has to be an indictment.
And we're talking about the federal government, they have nothing

(43:59):
but time. So when we talk about sex trafficking, we're
talking about racketeering. We're talking about those elements. They have
to present a case to the grand jury, and it's
not presented. And this is where I think, you know,
talking to people presently, they think the case is going
to is the beginning and the end with this one witness,

(44:22):
like the first witness, is the beginning and the end
of the case. And everything is a narrative and everything
is storytelling. That's what this is is. Just think of
it as storytelling. Right, if I'm a prosecutor and what
and when I was a prosecutor state and federal, I
wouldn't put my best witness on first because I know
I have thirteen more to go.

Speaker 3 (44:42):
So you're telling me that the star witness.

Speaker 5 (44:45):
Who determines that the yeah, yeah, right, right right.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
So did we ever hear the prosecution cigar witness and.

Speaker 6 (44:56):
Did we read the indictment to see that the indictment
talks about traveling and having escorts traveling from different states.
We haven't heard any testimony about that. I think, as
they say, back home soon come right.

Speaker 4 (45:12):
We have.

Speaker 6 (45:14):
Talk in the indictment about paying money extortion. We haven't
really heard. We heard a little bit, but not a
lot of that.

Speaker 5 (45:22):
So when you look at this witness, what is this
witness saying is this witness? Why is she part of
the story.

Speaker 6 (45:29):
I'm going to assume as a prosecutor, once was lays
the foundation, gives the jury something to have an understanding
of what's going on here, because quite frankly, unless I
misread my playbook as a prosecutor, if that's your best
witness and you put them on first, by the time
you get to your fourteenth witness, I've forgot about your
first witness.

Speaker 4 (45:48):
This is true.

Speaker 6 (45:49):
So now I got to go through redback four or
five days of reading back, reading back testimony, and so
no prosecutor want that. So what we want to do,
we want to build, want to be able to come back.
And you heard Cassie say this, and you heard Don't
say that, and you heard and now you're starting to
build because now you're going to have some people.

Speaker 5 (46:08):
I would imagine, and my imagination is.

Speaker 6 (46:12):
Fairly good, that you're going to have some people that
are not women, that are men that were part of
They call it an enterprise, right, and everybody ooh, enterprise.

Speaker 5 (46:21):
No, that's just the name.

Speaker 6 (46:22):
Of what you call it, right, whether it's combs or
whether it's bad boy.

Speaker 5 (46:26):
You know that either worked or was.

Speaker 6 (46:28):
Employed or were consultants or something of that nature that
did certain things. It's almost like a puzzle. I don't
know if the prosecutor is working in out or out in.
I believe they're set in the framework and then they're
going to start putting pieces in the middle, and then
it's going to turn into a puzzle. And so that's
what we have to look forward to. And so just

(46:51):
giving you an understanding of definition of racketeering because they're go, oh,
they think it's like gambling or you know, maybe we
kick down the door and we waved the four forward.

Speaker 5 (47:00):
Oh no, it's just.

Speaker 6 (47:01):
Two or more acts within a ten year span that
are on the list of a variety of acts drug trafficking,
sex trafficking, robbery, murder, extortion, fraud. You commit those and
it's two or more and that's how you get the
conspiracy and you got a trapdoor.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
But the person doesn't have to be on trial with you.

Speaker 5 (47:24):
Well, they do, and they don't.

Speaker 6 (47:27):
Sometimes what happens is the government we call it sliding
in the first base. Sometimes people decide to slide in
first base before the game even start. They know something
is going to happen, they know that they're involved, and
either you go to the FEDS before or when the
FEDS start interviewing people, because they've interviewed.

Speaker 5 (47:50):
A lot of people, you decide that.

Speaker 6 (47:55):
I was employed to do this. I didn't know it
was it would lead to do that, or maybe I
knew about this, but I didn't know about that. And
so I am going to before I am a co
conspirator named in an indictment, I'm going to become a witness.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
So that's basically what's happening is the people that the
co conspirat like Actually, because when I'm when I'm listening
to this, this is my personal opinion, this is not
right or wrong. Cassie is a co conspirator if you
asked me, because when if you're talking about sex trafficking
and you talking about all these escapades they had, and

(48:33):
you're talking about her getting these you know, these escorts
and all that she co conspirator was she there was
a lot of times where she initiated it. So if
I'm just is my mind as a novice lawyer, but
I studied a little lawyer. I was in the lower
Library for seven years. You're studying a little law just
understanding what co conspirator is these people are co conspirators.

(48:55):
I'm listening, listening to they said James cru Is supposed
to come. James Cruise was like is personal system. He
actually managed a lot of stuff. So more than likely
he was a co conspirator too, and for exchange for
his freedom right, he's saying, listen, I'm not I'm gonna
go and say whatever y'all need me to say. Well,

(49:18):
I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say what I know. I'm
gonna give my testimony and just in exchange to make
sure that I'm not because, like you said, maybe he's saying, oh,
I was cool with this, but I wasn't cool with that. Well,
I knew about this and I didn't know that that
was happening, and I wasn't okay with that. So a
lot of these people, because that's what a lot of
people are saying, how do you have a Rico in

(49:39):
Arico indictment without any code defenders? And somebody told me
And I'm not saying it's true, they're saying that the
only two cases that they know to have been like
this is him and R. Kelly where there's been a
Rico indictment where no one else has any code defenders.

Speaker 5 (49:56):
Wow, look, there is no rule that you have to
have colder all right?

Speaker 6 (50:01):
Is there implicit bias and some sort of tilting of
the scales? There could be they most likely is I
don't think in any genre of the American tale, something
wasn't like with a little squint eye. Right, But you
know that coming in, You know that after the baby,
after doctor slapped you in the butt, you gotta.

Speaker 5 (50:23):
Know that, like I'm black, this is this is what's happening.

Speaker 6 (50:26):
So what might be the exception is not an exception
for you, it's part of the rule. It might be
an exception to someone else. Now, what I will also
say to you is that when you have someone that
quote unquote you want to label as a co conspirator,
but yet you find so many acts that kind of
doves into them being a victim, you got to decide rights.

Speaker 5 (50:52):
And the project has to decide.

Speaker 6 (50:53):
You know, I got a guy who's seven feet toll,
who gotta handle like Kyrie Irvan, can shoot driven whatever.

Speaker 5 (50:57):
Am I gonna play him as a centaurs. I'm gonna
let him do his thing.

Speaker 6 (51:01):
And so I'll make the analogy for Cassie right, I
have someone who, yeah, may have been involved, and there's
a theory to say that maybe.

Speaker 5 (51:10):
She should be at the table. But if I have
more data points.

Speaker 6 (51:12):
That says she's more of a victim than anything else,
I'm gonna use that and go that way. And the
same thing with the security guard or security in and
because remember, for those who don't know, racketeering also includes extortion.

Speaker 5 (51:29):
So if you're.

Speaker 6 (51:30):
Employed and your employer are saying you have to do
this else you'll get fired, right or you never work
in this industry?

Speaker 5 (51:39):
Again, Well, isn't that like extortion. I'm not saying it.
I'm not saying he did it or.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
Right, I'm just saying that that's the theory, that's right.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
I think that I think that you know our intention
is because it's eight weeks, so we're only in week
two and it's at the beginning of wet stop.

Speaker 6 (52:00):
Can I stop you right there? Say that one more time? Yeah,
what we have?

Speaker 3 (52:04):
We one in a day, We one in one day, so.

Speaker 5 (52:07):
We got eight weeks of testimony that's coming down.

Speaker 3 (52:10):
We don't know.

Speaker 5 (52:11):
Do you think they won or lost this case with
one person?

Speaker 4 (52:14):
That's it?

Speaker 5 (52:14):
They don't.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
I don't think that at all and I've been saying that,
but I'm just saying that because we haven't watched it
all play out, and we do know how the justice
system is complicit in the violence towards black men and
black people. Therefore, we all are going to pay very
close attention because people want to point out six white

(52:37):
women as the prosecutors on this case and different points.
So I'm just putting that out there so people are
not like, oh, they just putting them in jail. We're
not saying that because when people say, well, they have
an eighty something percent chance of winning, that means there's
a twelve percent, thirteen percent, almost twenty percent chance of
not winning. So you don't know until you get towards

(52:59):
the end, and I guess probably a week six, week seven,
you as a lawyer and a former prosecutor, will probably
have a better sense of like where the cake is
being baked and how it's coming out, even though you
may have some ideas today, but we're not going to
give that because our people ain't ready for that yet.

Speaker 3 (53:18):
In the process.

Speaker 6 (53:19):
Look, just like a doctor, you come in and you sniffling,
and you don't have a fever. He's already or she's
already doing the diagnosis. Already, they don't even take nothing.

Speaker 5 (53:32):
You sneezing, you don't have a fever. Certain things are
being eliminated.

Speaker 6 (53:36):
So now that the list get what else you don't eat,
you don't keep fluids down, the list gets smaller. So
as an attorney, respectfully, once I read the indictment and
I start seeing what's the a's and the bees, and
I don't know about anybody else, I think the reason
why I'm good and the reason why I like it.

(53:56):
I think the reason why people that I represent, whether
they go do time at the end of the day
or whether they go home free, is that we're gonna
walk this war. And you better tell me something because
I cannot walk in the room where somebody knows more
than I, because I don't know if you've blown smoke
up my nose.

Speaker 5 (54:13):
I don't know. I need to know. Now, some people, Oh,
you represent, You want to find out he's guilty innocent?

Speaker 1 (54:18):
No, But this is how sometimes doctors misdiagnose people right
because they haven't done the proper testing correct. They're making
a decision based upon the theories of whatever's top of mind.
You look like, next thing you know I got cancer,
but you said it was COVID or some other thing

(54:40):
and didn't give me the proper full analysis to make
sure of what I actually have. And now I'm in
stage three and we didn't know because you didn't do
that work right.

Speaker 6 (54:51):
And part of the part of the analogy and the
equation that I really want to focus on in that
is this is that I'm only as good as you
gonna let me be m hm. So if I'm asking you,
are you sniffling? Do you feel this way? You're like, no, Well,
now you're sending me on path where I can ultimately
misdiagnose you. So there has to be some give and

(55:11):
take in this process of what I'm reading and what's
going to go on.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
But but but black people, black people, I think we're
kind of going off somewhere else.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
But whatever, But black people have historically been.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
Misdiagnosed just because the doctor doesn't even care what yourself.

Speaker 6 (55:30):
Well, And this is this is the great thing, And
that's why I like doing what I do. That's why
I'm glad to see at least one brother on his team,
because there has to be conversations, there have to be relatability.

Speaker 5 (55:44):
There has to be what's smoke, what's not. There has
to be trust, there has to be all.

Speaker 6 (55:48):
These things that go on in order for quote unquote
there to be a fair trial, right, and that's what
we that's what we're looking for.

Speaker 4 (55:57):
So you think he's going to get a fair trial.

Speaker 5 (56:02):
I would say yes, he's going to get a fair trial.

Speaker 6 (56:06):
And I would say no, he will not get a
fair trial because one I have to say yes and
no because I know some of the attorneys that's on
the staff. They are really good at what they do,
and so they're going to stop certain things from happening.

Speaker 5 (56:18):
But the judge is the ultimate ruler. The judge can
say no overrule. You have to take it up on appeal.
The case is over.

Speaker 6 (56:27):
An appeal is after you've already been convicted, right, so
you might be vindicated, but you served four or five years.
So there's judgment calls that are going to happen that
legal minds are going to disagree with. You know, what
is enough narrative? You know how much is overkilled? Can
you go in this area or not that area? We
want to move on.

Speaker 5 (56:48):
With the rest of the case. How do we want
to proceed?

Speaker 6 (56:52):
But then there's going to be parted that some stuff
is just going to be stubborn. It's just going to
be stubborn evidence. Videos that you saw are stubborn evidence.
You can say what you want. That video is saying
more than what you could even say verbally, and how
can you?

Speaker 2 (57:07):
But I think for me, what most people are saying
is you can't discount the video.

Speaker 5 (57:11):
Any video, not one particular. I don't know what else,
what else.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
I'm just saying, based on the video that we've seen, Okay, right,
we see domestic violence, right right, And that's what most people.
Most people are one hundred percent clear that or not clear.
Most people will will pretty much say that based on
what they've seen and based off even testimony, just based
off a lot of you know, what we've seen over

(57:37):
the last couple of weeks. So there is a strong
possibility that he was abusive to Castle.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
Not strong possibility, I.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Mean on a regular basis. We know this one situation happened.
But people will say there's a strong because we didn't
see the other stuff. Right, we just make an assessment
based on that situation, based on her testimony and based
on other testimony and just what we've seen it is
a strong possibility. People say this like it's more than
likely that he's put his hands on more than one

(58:06):
time off camera off camera.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Right, it was off camera that day, right, but for
but for But I'm just trying to take the point
that that was off camera. Nobody was standing there with
the thing filming them, So I'm just saying that we
visually didn't see.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
So what I'm saying is and people, most people are
one hundred percent clear, and they believe that there should
be some repercussions for what he did, whatever the minimum.
But I think with people are having a hard time
wrapping their heads around most people more often most people,

(58:45):
some people, because I won't say most, there are people
that have a very hard.

Speaker 4 (58:52):
Time with sex trafficking in the recach.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
They just do they when you look at when you
when you see that, let me.

Speaker 6 (58:59):
Just say what they're having a hard time because they
haven't seen anything yet.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
Okay, you're having a hard time.

Speaker 6 (59:06):
People may be having a hard time with something that
they haven't They want, they want they want to dessert.

Speaker 5 (59:12):
You gotta have dinner. They got to take human bites rights.
As the bits start to come pro or con then
you can start to say I don't think they proved this.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
That, and you can't say it hasn't been proven yet
because they haven't even played out there.

Speaker 5 (59:25):
They haven't even they haven't done. They laid the found
I'm gonna assume I'm they just laid the foundation. Royce Russell, prosecutor,
will not put his best witness on. We'll put a
witness on that lays the foundation. Not a witness that
people will fall asleep, but people are interested, and that

(59:46):
lays the foundation. If you think that the case is
over in this one witness, then you're right. You have
all those conclusions. They didn't do this.

Speaker 6 (59:55):
They didn't say anything about sex trafficking. No, she's one
witness that said one thing right. And that's the way
the Feds like to work. They like to work in
very didactical, piece by piece. They'll have you come in
twenty times and to ask you that same question over,
not just to see whether or not you're telling the truth.
It's because they went and asked somebody else some other

(01:00:17):
questions and that person said.

Speaker 5 (01:00:19):
AB and C. So they're coming back to you.

Speaker 6 (01:00:22):
All right, we're gonna talk about A B A B
A B A B and then you might slip in
a C and then.

Speaker 5 (01:00:27):
Now they got two c's.

Speaker 6 (01:00:28):
All right, So now that person was telling the truth,
and now I got you telling you. Now I can
build on that. It's a puzzle for them. It is
not straight rush the prosecution. Now, as you were giving
out numbers eighty eighty percent, ninety five percent, you know
the numbers are very high.

Speaker 5 (01:00:46):
You know, I practice in federal court, and.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
You won mostly games.

Speaker 5 (01:00:50):
Folks do take no.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
No.

Speaker 5 (01:00:52):
I could sit here and tell you no, not in
federal court, no state state.

Speaker 4 (01:00:57):
Those are totally two.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
Which one as a prosecutor.

Speaker 5 (01:01:01):
Oh, as a prosecutor, I was fantabulous.

Speaker 6 (01:01:04):
I mean, you know, as a prosecutor federal court.

Speaker 5 (01:01:07):
Because here's the storyline with that.

Speaker 6 (01:01:10):
People are not used to seeing people of color operate
the way I operate, right, and so there's a somewhat
of a little bit of a bottom line that I
want to believe you just on how you operated.

Speaker 5 (01:01:23):
And then you got the facts to corroborate. Look, I'm
telling you the truth. You need to listen to me.

Speaker 6 (01:01:30):
And the way we worked in the federal government. We
got sixteen seventeen people. All I got to do is
just try this case anything that's appealable, anything that comes
to I got all person sitting there writing a note. Sorry,
we're gonna get that. When you're a defense counsel and
you're there, you don't have the flock of thirty people.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
So why did you leave and do?

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
And so if you were having such success as a prosecutor,
why look we now I'm in your personal business.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
No I why did.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
You go and get in the hard work of being
a criminal defense attorney?

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
Because sometimes you be a stressed out Oh.

Speaker 6 (01:02:01):
No, not sometimes, And it's not necessarily what happens in
the court. What's happening out of the court trying to
talk to someone and say, look, you need to see
it the way I'm seeing it because I saw what
was behind curtain number one. I took a peak, and
what you're saying to me is not relating to taking
that peak.

Speaker 5 (01:02:18):
Now, we could do whatever you want, and I'm your
main man.

Speaker 6 (01:02:20):
We can go one hundred grand, but there's going to
come a time that that door is going to open,
and it's a good possibility I may go left and
you may have to go right.

Speaker 5 (01:02:28):
On the federal level, because that's just how tight it is.
That's how they just have the people that you think
you know.

Speaker 6 (01:02:36):
Numerous times on the state levels of Defense Council, my
clients will say, oh, that person's not showing up, and
they right. I've never been on a case, in a
federal case where somebody said they're not showing up. Everybody
shows up.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Well, they said they lost a third witness for I'm
just saying they couldn't front them so that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
Happen.

Speaker 5 (01:02:58):
Things could happen, and it ain't over. They can't. You can't, right.
I represented people where like, look, I'm getting.

Speaker 6 (01:03:08):
The call because they're gonna arrest you and you're gonna
be in the pokey until you come around.

Speaker 4 (01:03:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:03:16):
Now we're gonna take your name off the witness list
for today, We're gonna bring you and you're gonna be.
You're gonna be on the next Thursday. And then between
that time they may be conversations and hearings where the
judge will hold you in contempt and you go behind.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
Jesus you don't want to be in trouble.

Speaker 6 (01:03:33):
You go behind bars a little bit, and you better
hope that they don't hit you with one thousand and one.
I'm getting real technical, uh, you know, which is obstructing
a federal investigation. Now you got to think about that.
And you didn't sign up for that, No way that
you sign up for that. You just went downstairs and
got six coffees because the man told you to go
downstairs to get six coffees. That's how why the conspiracy

(01:03:55):
could be wow right. I've had a case where the
woman was on the phone. She said, oh yeah, baby,
I'll meet you at the spot. The spot turned out
to be the drug spot.

Speaker 4 (01:04:06):
It wasn't.

Speaker 5 (01:04:07):
She didn't mean. She didn't mean the drug spot.

Speaker 6 (01:04:09):
She was talking about, I meet you at the club,
I meet you later on. They heard spot. Next thing
you know, she's wrapped in a conspiracy. I'm like, now
you got to do the culturalization, you gotta do the understanding.

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
And then she doesn't actually know about the drugs, because
that's the key. They They probably already know you're not
talking about the drug spot, but they know you know
about the drug spot. So even if you wasn't talking
about it in that conversation, they're gonna use you and say, listen,
we think you was talking about the spot, and if not,
we're gonna get you this and that, and you need
to tell us something. Well, I wasn't talk all right, Well, listen,

(01:04:41):
I do know about such and such, and he know
about the spot and I've seen him go to and
that's how they do compromise and compromise.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
So the rico does not need more than one defendant.

Speaker 6 (01:04:51):
No, it needs more than one. I mean, you don't
have to charge, you don't have to put them on
the indictment.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
You don't have to have to prove it that they
So there's nobody no one else has to be sitting
next to.

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
So that's one.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
Now let's talk about sex trafficking, because that's very I mean,
I'm even very not confused because I went and got
myself very much so caught up to speed. But especially
when you have children and you know, and we work
with black folks all the time, and I'm hearing sex

(01:05:29):
trafficking more and more now. I used to only see
sex trafficking as the white van kidnapped or even and
I think I did get the point of sort of
coercion that turns into I'm unable to leave, right Like

(01:05:49):
at first I was kind of just hanging out with
you and then the next thing, you know, the door
was locked or the thing happened. I'm drugged or whatever,
and now I can't leave, and now you moved me
somewhere or you took me over here. So I kind
of get that content. But what I think again, where
people struggle in this particular case, and I you know anyway,

(01:06:12):
where people struggle in this particular case is the idea
that somebody is a willing participant, even an escort who
is a willing participant. They got the call, you know,
you found them in the magazine or wherever, wherever on
the street, in the strip club, whatever, and they say, oh, yeah,
you know, I'll go out with you, and then you

(01:06:33):
pay them. They know that sex is an expectation. And
then you say, but I want a matter of fact,
we made it. Might have did it in Kentucky when
I met you that day. But now you're so good
at what you do, I'm gonna fly you to Miami,
or I'm gonna bring you over here, or I want
you to meet me on in Jersey from New York.

(01:06:54):
That's where it gets to be rvery And I think
it's important perfer. You know, that's one thing. Let's put
that over here. I'm just saying that there's some young
cats that flew the girl out all the time, flying
this one over here they meet. It's particularly strippers, which
I was reading something the other day and I said, whoa, whoa.

(01:07:15):
The stripper thing is really serious because you met them
in an environment and they're not your girlfriend that you
flew out like this is somebody that you now are
giving money to to see them again. And then sex happens,
and a lot of these young guys I see them
on social media like what sex trafficking? So I just
wanted to you for you to talk a little bit

(01:07:37):
about that.

Speaker 6 (01:07:38):
Well, I mean it is very very nuanced, right, because
there's the definition could be played with in how you
view it. Right, I would say that there's a lot
of things that we do that are criminal, but you
never get charged for every time you jaywalk, that's a crime.

Speaker 5 (01:07:58):
No way ever gets a ticket for it. That doesn't
mean it wasn't a crime.

Speaker 4 (01:08:02):
Right, Spitting on the street is the crime.

Speaker 5 (01:08:07):
Now you're looking. So you're in a strip club, you're
giving money, you're doing that, and people say, well, how
is that any different? How is that any different?

Speaker 6 (01:08:16):
Well, when the federal government gets involved and you flying
people and you driving people, this is what see, that's
the nuance, right The federal government said, y'all, caul do
what you want in the state. But if we want
to do something, we're just going to look at how
you travel because we got the underlying act. How do
we get in our jurisdiction. Oh you jumped on eighty seven.
Oh you took ninety five. Oh you went from Newark,

(01:08:38):
you flew all that is us And if they want you,
then that's where they commit. Now, what I will tell
you is is that what I hear all the time
from family, friends and folds is that old consentual, consentual, consentual.
All this stuff is concentral, consentual central. And I harken
them back to read the Miseducation of Negro. If I
control your thinking, I don't have to worry about your actions,

(01:09:01):
and that's and you if you just take that right
there and think about this case. If I control your thinking,
I ain't gotta worry about your actions, So that means
back in slavery. If I control your thinking, I ain't
gonta worry about you running out the back door to
try to leave run away.

Speaker 5 (01:09:16):
For I'm not.

Speaker 4 (01:09:19):
Saying what I'm saying.

Speaker 5 (01:09:21):
What we say. What we're saying.

Speaker 6 (01:09:23):
We're saying is that if I control your thinking, I
ain't gonta worry about your actions.

Speaker 5 (01:09:27):
So why didn't she leave? Did I control her thinking?
I ain't gotta worry about leaving?

Speaker 6 (01:09:32):
Why didn't he tell? Did I control this thinking? I
ain't gonna worry about him telling?

Speaker 3 (01:09:37):
Now?

Speaker 5 (01:09:37):
How do you control ones? Thinking? Low self esteem? Give
you some money? However you do it, you do it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
But people think if while I'm buying you gifts, Right,
if a person is buying you gifts, then that means
that you want the lifestyle, you want, the things you want,
whatever the job that I can offer you. Right, you
are yourself in a situation where you know that I'm

(01:10:05):
X amount of problematic things. But because you're trying to
get to a means, then the ends justify it. And
I'm not saying I agree with that at all.

Speaker 4 (01:10:16):
But this and it's a dynamic. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
It's like women say, I want to deal with a
powerful man. I like power. I'm intrigued by power a
man can lead. I want to live the soft life.
Want a man that can control that could tell me, hey,
you shut up and you listen to me, and you
aspire to get a.

Speaker 4 (01:10:34):
Man like that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
Right, So there are men out here that I've had
conversations with men that said, we are actually punishing a
man because he got good gain now and he's powerful,
and we're saying that a woman who succeeds to that power, right,
becomes susceptible to that power and allows you to utilize
that power and gains from that power, takes the money,
enjoys all of the accolades that come with that power.

(01:10:56):
The minute that she no longer wants to succeeds become
susceptible to that, it becomes a crown.

Speaker 4 (01:11:02):
Well.

Speaker 6 (01:11:03):
See, nobody's nobody's going to accept that as anywhere near
what they would teach their loved ones, because you have
societal norms and societal norms. Even though I like a
man that's powerful, or I like a woman that's powerful,
I don't want them choking me out.

Speaker 4 (01:11:19):
Oh no, we're not talking about the physical.

Speaker 3 (01:11:22):
Right, Yeah, because I don't want.

Speaker 4 (01:11:25):
Yeah, I don't want.

Speaker 5 (01:11:26):
Because that's that's the problem.

Speaker 6 (01:11:28):
You can't make a straight vegan cake without mixing something
in it. You gotta like, you gotta the cake, gotta
have some weight, have some substance.

Speaker 4 (01:11:36):
In it.

Speaker 5 (01:11:36):
It may not have any flower, but it's gonna have
some assimilation of flower. It's gonna have something.

Speaker 6 (01:11:42):
So you can't talk about anything in isolation because it's
all cole mingled. Nothing could be talked about in isolation.
And I think for the most part, we may speak
in isolation. We may speak in isolation like, oh, well,
you know, she wanted them whoever she may be, or
he wanted a powerful woman. All right, he did to

(01:12:04):
what degree? That's where the nuances come in. They come
in and what degree? What degree are we talking about?

Speaker 5 (01:12:11):
Is it this much or is it this much? And
that's where societal norms come in. Is it this much
or is it this much? And that's what the jury
will decide.

Speaker 3 (01:12:20):
That will decide. I've been saying it's gonna be rough.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
It's rough on both ends because I don't think no man, woman,
or anybody of good conscious look at him beating Cassie
and says that that was okay. I just don't think
there's nobody saying, nah, she deserved Everybody saying whatever he
deserved for beating that woman.

Speaker 4 (01:12:39):
He needs to get it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
But I also think that there are a lot of
people that are saying, when you look at the dynamic up, they.

Speaker 4 (01:12:45):
Were in a toxic relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
A lot of people saying this is a toxic relationship,
and a lot of people have been in toxic relationships.
And when you look at over a ten year span,
you look at text message, look at communication they have,
there was levels of love there, there was communication, There
was dictated a lot of stuff. It was time that
they actually showed where she was like, Oh, I want
to do this freakom. He's like, Nah, you should just relax.
You should go home. You got a movie deal, you

(01:13:08):
got all these things.

Speaker 4 (01:13:09):
Relax. We don't got to do that. We need to
come back.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
There were times where you can just see that there
was love in this situation. And what this this trial
is portraying is that there was this manipulative evil man
that just controlled this woman and she had no right,
she had no power over us. And I think that's
the dynamic that a lot of people are struggling with.

Speaker 5 (01:13:31):
And naked look, they can struggle.

Speaker 6 (01:13:33):
I mean, I'm not going to say that they shouldn't,
but what I'm saying is that you mentioned it is
an eight week trial.

Speaker 5 (01:13:38):
We on day week and one day and that the case.

Speaker 6 (01:13:42):
She is not being tried for what he did to
Cassie and or be all, that's not the that's not
the case.

Speaker 5 (01:13:49):
That's not that would be a short case.

Speaker 6 (01:13:51):
We got eight weeks of other stuff that quite frankly,
I hope our community pays attention to one way.

Speaker 3 (01:13:58):
Or that's what, because that's.

Speaker 5 (01:14:02):
That's not.

Speaker 3 (01:14:02):
Like I said, the real is to pay attention and I.

Speaker 6 (01:14:07):
Like, keep the main thing the main thing, look at
the other thing, look at well, how many more receipts
we're going to see of somebody flying somewhere in and out.

Speaker 5 (01:14:15):
After a while, you're gonna get tired of seeing receipts?
How many times we're going to hear? And that's the guts.

Speaker 6 (01:14:22):
Whether they can prove or not proof, that's that's right,
and not being frosting, that's the gut.

Speaker 3 (01:14:29):
You know, I've heard a lot of people.

Speaker 4 (01:14:32):
First of its.

Speaker 1 (01:14:33):
First of all, I want to name something that I
think is important that it has come up in the
Shannon Sharp situation as well. Right, power dynamics are very,
very very important.

Speaker 5 (01:14:46):
You see it in corporate America all.

Speaker 1 (01:14:47):
Day every day, and that's why you can't sleep with
and mix with people on your.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
Staff that are can't joke with.

Speaker 6 (01:14:57):
There's no you look good, you look nice today because
I don't know how you perceive that about that boss
and you're the subordinated.

Speaker 5 (01:15:04):
You got to just do the job.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
It is very important that people take away the main
things from this trial, and like I said, the Shannon
Sharp situation that you can't you have to be very
careful when you have power and money about how you
operate with people who have less than you.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
With all people, with all people, with.

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
All people, but with people who have less than you,
there's always going to be a view that you were
in control because you had the ability to move and
maneuver things that another person or that other person did
not have the ability to do. So if I begin

(01:15:54):
having a relationship with some you know, younger employee of
mine or a younger you know, my trainer or something
like that, knowing the position that I'm in in life,
and then all of a sudden he begins to be uncomfortable,
I expose myself because I should never have been operating

(01:16:15):
in that type of Uh. I want to say power
dynamic in the first place, But.

Speaker 4 (01:16:20):
Do you think about Cassie is married to a trainer.

Speaker 3 (01:16:22):
Yeah, but I'm not so when we when we have.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
In these cops, there's a there's a power dynamic in
every situation, right, there's a power dynamic. And we and
and and I'm not and I just want you to
understand that we have in these conversations and there was
a whole thing and I'm not bringing up any names,
but there was a whole thing where they showed the
dynamics of black men in powers dynamics and white men

(01:16:45):
in power dynamics, and most of the white men in
the same positions who have done way we know have
done way. There's no direct attack to completely dismantle them.
This is just a reality and this is a real
thing that we talked about.

Speaker 4 (01:17:01):
We can go from.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
Bill Kysy, Michael Jackson shit where we can look at
every powerful man and that was black. There was a
complete attack by the media everything to completely crush their
whole appearance. They are white men who have been charged
with the same thing Robert Kraft and got caught doing
some sexual shit that should disappeared within a week. They
talked about it. One day, it completely disappeared. We never

(01:17:24):
heard about Hugh Heffnagina, We never heard the people who
actually did the power dynamics of this real shit where
it started from that, we started a lot of not
weed that black men started to mimic. These people would
never their image and everything was never completely shattered.

Speaker 4 (01:17:40):
It never happened.

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):
So we not say we can say that there's a
power that we gotta say the thing is the thing
that black men in power have to be way more
careful than every other man in power.

Speaker 1 (01:17:50):
And I'm and I'm saying that I want the system
to be just and I want us to do just things.
I'm saying that just because there is this issue where
we know we as black people in general, not just
black men, face discrimination and what is the word that

(01:18:14):
the rules do not always apply or the rules always
apply for us and don't always apply for other people.
Just because all of that is true does not make
me incapable of also seeing fault when fault is present
in black men. So I have no there is In fact,

(01:18:35):
I am very cautious about even saying that in the
midst of a black man facing accountability for their actions,
I'm very careful to not allow myself to say, well,
what about the house that's burning down the street, Because
this house is burning right here.

Speaker 3 (01:18:54):
Well, I'm not saying I am not saying you are.

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):
I'm saying I know what I've the conversations that I've
been having with people, not just about Puff, because people
know not to really talk to me about Puff, because,
as I've already said, I understand that we all are
walking contradictions. When you love people, it is harder, especially me,
never seeing Puff do any of these things. Right, Like,

(01:19:19):
I don't know him as this person. I know him
as a person who was always kind, supportive of me, helpful,
fun funny, but still very respectful of me. But I
also know that I'm a very privileged individual that certain
people are not going to do and say certain things
to me, and so I have to listen to other

(01:19:41):
people's experiences and see how it all plays out. Right,
So what I'm saying is that people don't really talk
to me about that because when they start, I'm like, look,
I don't even want to talk about it.

Speaker 3 (01:19:51):
But there are other scenarios where I have had black men.

Speaker 1 (01:19:55):
Say to me, oh, well, such and such beat so
and so the white man did it, or the so
and so did it, And now all of a sudden,
because I did it all because my brother or my
cousin did it. Now this means that I you know,
it's it's unfair. Well, first of all, we live in
unfair reality. And if we know that, then we already

(01:20:16):
know because we say things all the time.

Speaker 3 (01:20:18):
As a black person, I know better. I'm not doing this.

Speaker 1 (01:20:20):
I'm not going running through a community, you know, and
you tell your kids, don't you go running through them
people neighborhood at night, because you know what can happen.

Speaker 2 (01:20:32):
But basically, that's exactly what I was saying.

Speaker 4 (01:20:36):
We are black.

Speaker 2 (01:20:36):
So when you say as men, there's a power dynamic,
it's not as men. It's not when we look at
it in totality, it's not. The rules do not apply
to all men the way that they apply to black men.
And that's all I'm trying to say, and I'm not
saying is when we talk about physical abuse and all that,
I'm not even talking.

Speaker 4 (01:20:52):
I'm talking about the power dynamic.

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
When we look at the power dynamic, black men are
scrutinized way more in these power done them. We got
Cromo's accus now he's running for the man tomorrow. We
got all these things that disappear. It don't disappear for
black men. T I went through, whatever you went through,
they said this didn't happen. Nobody said sorry, nobody gives
a fuck. So these are realities that black men deal
with all the time. They diminish you, they take all

(01:21:17):
the shit, you take all the charges, and even if
you find guilty, you can't if you found not guilty,
they never rebuild you. There's never no recourse, there's nothing back.
Nobody's getting charged in it. None of that happens for
black men. And that's just the reality that we have
to deal with. So I acknowledge that we have to
be way more cautious, but don't we can't make it
seem like the playing fields evil for even for black

(01:21:39):
men that it is for everybody else.

Speaker 6 (01:21:41):
But that's the story that we've been saying. I mean,
we're born into that, right, we know that, right. And
so I think where some folks get misled is that
they buy into that it's.

Speaker 5 (01:21:52):
Not gonna happen to me.

Speaker 6 (01:21:55):
And once you once you, once you lift up the
shade a little bit and you think it's not going
to happened to you, that's when it happens to you.
That's just that's just how it happens, period, and whether
right or wrong, Shannon Sharp or not. Whoever, if you
think that you are not on the eye of the tiger,

(01:22:20):
you wrong.

Speaker 5 (01:22:20):
You should act as if you always.

Speaker 6 (01:22:24):
Someone's always looking at you and looking for you, period,
men and women, period.

Speaker 5 (01:22:31):
That's it.

Speaker 6 (01:22:32):
If they got to find something and they going to contrite.
Our community is more than happy to be behind you.
When there's something that's contrite, you're just trying to find something.
But when something has some meat on the bone, you
got a problem.

Speaker 5 (01:22:44):
And that's irrespective of this case right here.

Speaker 1 (01:22:48):
So we talked about nuance today that these all these
these things because you had said early in my son
that reco charges are designed for you not to be
able to beat them.

Speaker 3 (01:22:59):
Yeah, agree with that.

Speaker 5 (01:23:00):
I would agree, I would, I would, I would agree.

Speaker 6 (01:23:04):
So let me let me say I agree in the sentiment,
I don't necessarily agree with the words.

Speaker 4 (01:23:11):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:23:12):
Rico speaks to conspiracy and two or more and a
whole litany of crimes that you can commit and can
you beat it if you act by yourself, But if
there's other people that are around you that acting.

Speaker 5 (01:23:31):
Everybody has a.

Speaker 6 (01:23:32):
Soft soft spot you can get in this situation that
has nothing to do with this case and decide that
this is the best thing that's got me going. I
mean that that's just the reality.

Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
That's just so we got we can look at we
can look at situations like Brian Benjamin, like when they
start coming with you, Rico, you don't have they don't
most of the time, they don't have nothing to do
with nothing.

Speaker 3 (01:23:56):
You don't.

Speaker 2 (01:23:57):
And they got one person like he said, got nothing
to do with this case, but he's a rested for
something else. And he said, well, you know, I might
have done this or he might have said this to
me and next thing you know, And it's but I'm
just trying to tell you that we just judge a
little different. This is my person. We definitely judge it.

Speaker 5 (01:24:11):
No I can walking in and as a prosecutor, yeah,
we're definitely judged a whole lot different.

Speaker 6 (01:24:19):
But I can't accept that from you as a defendant,
that you didn't understand that part about America, Like that's
the part that's the part that we like, we're.

Speaker 5 (01:24:28):
Gonna we're gonna rock out, we're gonna scramble, but a
lot of times you gotta understand.

Speaker 4 (01:24:32):
But that's what that's what.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
The power dynamic does right when you look at powerful
man that's been powerful for thirty years and you're hanging
around these white men and they're doing the same shit,
and you forget.

Speaker 4 (01:24:43):
You start thinking we're on the same level they doing it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
Oh, this is okay, good, And it just seems like
you could do like you said, you commit crimes every day.
Because I know that there are people who got caught
up in these types of cases didn't even know at all.
They really truly did not understand that they were involved
with or helping to further because I kept reading that

(01:25:08):
that's right, helping to further.

Speaker 5 (01:25:09):
So the wall You.

Speaker 6 (01:25:11):
Went and picked somebody up from the airport, Dang, well,
you thought it was like he told me to pick
up something or she.

Speaker 1 (01:25:18):
But if he mentions to you on the way out
the car, I'm about to go smoke this thing or
do this thing or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:25:25):
Then does that And I still don't.

Speaker 1 (01:25:27):
Understand how if I picked you up and took to
the airport or from there or whatever, the hell, how
do I become a part of something where you did
not explicitly say to me, I'm getting ready to go
by these drugs.

Speaker 4 (01:25:39):
Hey, federal government has a burden of proof, Nigga present
is the.

Speaker 5 (01:25:45):
Words called inference.

Speaker 6 (01:25:47):
How can you be involved with all this and not
infer and know what's going on? Like you didn't know,
like you picking up that wasn't a famous singer. You
picked up from the from the airport, you know that, right?
And you bring them idle conversation happens everybody when they
get in the car. They know, you know, talk happens.
Things happen. You'll go downstairs.

Speaker 3 (01:26:09):
Now, can you take me?

Speaker 1 (01:26:12):
Matter of fact, man, take me by this spot, my man,
I know to whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:26:18):
Yo, that's a lot though. That's not not really fair.

Speaker 4 (01:26:21):
It's not it's not and it's not designed to be fair,
that's what.

Speaker 5 (01:26:25):
It's not fair.

Speaker 1 (01:26:26):
But because I didn't when you when I went by
to go get the crack, I mean I took you
over there, I don't know what the hell. You're a
grown ass person. You're going there to get the crack?
What does this have to do with my life?

Speaker 5 (01:26:37):
And maybe maybe maybe that's maybe that's why you're not.

Speaker 3 (01:26:40):
Charged because I'm with the law.

Speaker 5 (01:26:42):
But maybe that's what I'm Maybe that's why you're not charged.

Speaker 6 (01:26:46):
But you're away because because you you know that I
just did this. But if you get and this is
what we started at the piece of the puzzle, I
just did this.

Speaker 5 (01:26:55):
I just did this.

Speaker 6 (01:26:56):
I just did Now you start to build a framework
and then you get a couple of more They just.

Speaker 5 (01:27:00):
Did this, They just did that. They just did that.
That's what it's all about.

Speaker 1 (01:27:05):
So here's two things that have that also have have
This case has highlighted people under NDAs because there was
a woman who testified that she signed it an NDA
that Cassie gave her after she was assaulted by Puff

(01:27:25):
and he supposedly paid her. That's what she said, but
she was under the NDA because she signed it. She
said that, so people want to know how.

Speaker 3 (01:27:34):
Does she end up in court?

Speaker 1 (01:27:36):
And then the biggest thing is folks are saying, Cassie
took a settlement from Puff, So how does she now
become a witness in this case?

Speaker 6 (01:27:46):
Because you're talking about criminality, civil and criminal two different worlds,
and the federal government and the US Attorney's Office they
do not care about what's going on in the civil world.
Matter of fact, when you look at separation.

Speaker 5 (01:28:01):
Agreements, when you leave your job right things are not
working out, they give you a separation agreement.

Speaker 6 (01:28:07):
It will talk about. You can't talk about the settlement.
You can't disclose.

Speaker 5 (01:28:11):
Why you laugh, you can't disparage, you.

Speaker 6 (01:28:13):
Can't do any of those things. But there's always that
one paragraph. Uh oh, there's always that one paragraph that
speaks to.

Speaker 5 (01:28:23):
I'm sorry, put the phone back.

Speaker 3 (01:28:26):
Yeah, okay, all right.

Speaker 6 (01:28:29):
Now where you want to start. No, it's always that
one paragraph that speaks to that. If there's a federal investigation,
if there's a state investigation, if there's an EEOC investigation.

Speaker 5 (01:28:42):
That's off.

Speaker 6 (01:28:44):
The only thing you will see in reference to that
is that you got to let us know.

Speaker 5 (01:28:48):
The employee says, you got to.

Speaker 4 (01:28:49):
Let us know.

Speaker 6 (01:28:51):
We can't intercede, We can't talk to you first, but
you gotta let us know. Same thing here you can
have all Let's just say she breached the NDA, and
everybody's up in arms, and she happens to breach the
NDA that you drafted inside. Let's say you will quit it.
Let's just say where you think you're gonna suit her

(01:29:13):
for breaching the NDA? What court you think you're gonna
go to?

Speaker 5 (01:29:17):
I say, you know, I say it very you know lightly.
What court you're gonna go to?

Speaker 4 (01:29:21):
None? You can't.

Speaker 6 (01:29:22):
No wonder, no judge, no judge is gonna say, you
know what, you're right, You're right. Fifty thousand dollars. You
win because she breached the NDA, because the federal government
came to her and said, we want to know about criminality.

Speaker 5 (01:29:35):
You have nowhere to go.

Speaker 3 (01:29:37):
So once again, don't do it, because just don't do
the thing.

Speaker 5 (01:29:41):
Well, just don't do it. There we go.

Speaker 3 (01:29:44):
Just don't do the thing.

Speaker 4 (01:29:45):
Just don't do just don't do the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
So what I was what I wanted to ask as
the final question, is, so you know, I've there's been
a lot of talk about this Meg and Tory Lanez
quote unquote.

Speaker 4 (01:29:56):
Newly discovered evidence.

Speaker 2 (01:29:58):
So what they're saying is that a driver who was
driving her to court, her who was driving Kelsey to court,
who is Meg's friend, who was driving her to court
back and forth for the two days that she went
to trial, overheard her saying that quote I don't know
exact words, that she's the one who shot Meg and
that he blocked the gun on her hand. Is this

(01:30:19):
newly discovered evidence or is it hearsay? Can it be
presented as newly discovered evidence or is it just heresay?

Speaker 4 (01:30:25):
Evidence.

Speaker 6 (01:30:26):
Well, it's both, and it's always a hearsay exception. So
things are allowed because you have a.

Speaker 5 (01:30:34):
Rule, and you have an exception.

Speaker 6 (01:30:36):
If someone is making a statement, a statement that is
involving involving an investigation or involving prior testimony and you
know it, then it's new evidence. The issue is how
relevant is it, how relevant is it to the bigger piece,
and whether or not and how it could be used.
So that's really the question, because there's always exceptions to

(01:30:58):
every rule. Is say, yeah, it's out of court statement,
definitely is right, But what's the exception And was it
against her own interest in making the statement, whether whether
whether or not it was in furtherance some other interests
that will determine whether.

Speaker 5 (01:31:17):
Or not can come in.

Speaker 1 (01:31:19):
So that and who makes that decision A judge, a judge.

Speaker 5 (01:31:24):
The prosecutity to say argue for or against it.

Speaker 6 (01:31:26):
Defense are either argue for or against it or judge
and making decisions.

Speaker 1 (01:31:30):
And this was the same judge that was on the
case that would make that decision, or a new judge
could be.

Speaker 6 (01:31:34):
It all depends. It all depends. That is not a
fast fast rule. It all depends because sometimes what happens
in federal court. In most courts, you have judges that
will deal with all the logistical motions and all the
suppressions and all those hearings, and then you have the
judge just tries the case.

Speaker 1 (01:31:53):
But now, in this particular situation, I think Kelsey did
the the fifth or she.

Speaker 4 (01:32:02):
Was granted immunity.

Speaker 1 (01:32:03):
Actually right, she was granted immunity, so they can bring
the new evidence against her, and then the courts can
decide again because people need to know that all these things,
the NDA, the immunity whether not violates.

Speaker 6 (01:32:17):
Any any any immunity clause, you know, and then they
make that decision.

Speaker 1 (01:32:21):
And so they could yeah, because people believe if I
say I I have immunity, or if I signed an
n DA or whatever, then I'm out of it. And
what we're hearing here is that that's not the case.

Speaker 6 (01:32:33):
So I think the best way to describe it is
immunity is usually for criminal conduct, like, look, I'm immune
from anything that goes on because you deem my information
so valuable.

Speaker 5 (01:32:46):
NDA is for.

Speaker 6 (01:32:47):
The civil context, never should they meet, and if they meet,
criminal is always going.

Speaker 5 (01:32:53):
To take over.

Speaker 1 (01:32:55):
So the criminal in this situation, even though she had
immunity from a criminal act. Yes, it's still if new
evidence means it's a new.

Speaker 5 (01:33:04):
New situation, because that means that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:08):
She right, But you don't get free the person who
was convicted, do they get free?

Speaker 5 (01:33:15):
But it depends, it depends.

Speaker 6 (01:33:17):
It depends, depends on the relevance of it. Right, So
it might be a small factor that wouldn't have changed
the jurist perspective. So it's called this is what they
call it. They call it harmless era. It was an error,
but it was harmless. Now I would tell you if
I'm behind bars, ain't nothing harmless.

Speaker 4 (01:33:36):
It's an era.

Speaker 5 (01:33:37):
Let's let's let's let's get it, let's do it, let's
do it, do over.

Speaker 6 (01:33:40):
But the courts will look at all the factors, look
at all the evidence and say this is harmless eraror.

Speaker 1 (01:33:45):
So in the history of your life, which, by the way, whatever,
we can't say because people do crazy things. What is
the likelihood from your perspective that a woman who was
god immunity playing all kinds of games on the stand.
You know, just I followed this case very closely. I

(01:34:06):
went to the trial.

Speaker 4 (01:34:08):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:34:09):
Definitely, it appears there was some money exchange when they
asked her who paid for her lawyers? She don't know.
She you know, all of that, all of these things.
What is the likelihood that she would get in the
car with a driver who she does not know, not
a driver who's she's known for years and years, driver

(01:34:32):
she doesn't know, in a couple of days back and
forth to court and just sit there on the phone
telling people.

Speaker 3 (01:34:37):
Yeah, I'm the one who shot the girl.

Speaker 5 (01:34:40):
So what was the question? Was it like that she
would say.

Speaker 2 (01:34:43):
Something that she would just that would be something that
a judge would look at and say, oh, this.

Speaker 3 (01:34:47):
Is the judge dunkin, look at it.

Speaker 4 (01:34:50):
Look at it.

Speaker 5 (01:34:50):
Somebody's gonna bring it to the judge's tape right now.
What is it likely? That's a hard question to answer.
People people are stupid.

Speaker 3 (01:34:59):
Right they are? Are? They are? I swear they.

Speaker 5 (01:35:02):
Are stupid, right, And we'll all due respect. People are
just stupid.

Speaker 6 (01:35:06):
And so would that be the first thing that we
saw a stupid person do.

Speaker 5 (01:35:10):
No, that's why we got them stupid.

Speaker 6 (01:35:12):
So now I don't from the respective of the driver,
this is what I look at it. If I'm a judge,
why would you contrive a story and put yourself in
a case that you never in a case before.

Speaker 3 (01:35:25):
Well that he said it's because he feels bad.

Speaker 6 (01:35:28):
Why would you make up a story? The reason why
you come forward is because.

Speaker 5 (01:35:32):
You feel bad.

Speaker 6 (01:35:33):
Why you would make up something that's not true. That's
a whole nother story. So the judge has to say,
is this person making that up? Or did this happen?

Speaker 5 (01:35:42):
And they're coming for it because of what you said.

Speaker 4 (01:35:45):
The dynamics.

Speaker 2 (01:35:48):
Where the driver come from the driver community.

Speaker 1 (01:35:53):
And I'm for I, like I always say, and it's
the same thing that I say about the situation with Paul.
As much as I love him, I believe that he
has to face these charges right like he has to.
You can't just be like, well, I love somebody or
I believe such and such, so let's just brush it. No,
it don't work like that. If they are women who

(01:36:14):
are saying or men saying they've been abused, I believe
everybody deserves their day in court. People look at me,
they're like, oh, how do you feel. I feel that
if these things that people are saying, these things happen
to them. I would never try to block him from
having a go to court to deal with the allegations
against him. I think everybody deserve every woman, every man,

(01:36:35):
every person who has a story of being abused or
being harmed in some way, they deserve their day in court.
And that's just where I am with it. Some people
will say throw it out. No, I don't believe in that.
So I think that if Kelsey, if this is what's
coming up, they should I want them to go down

(01:36:55):
the rabbit hole, cause I think it's better.

Speaker 3 (01:36:57):
For people to be able to see it play out.

Speaker 1 (01:37:00):
Then if it feels like nothing happened and a black
man was just railroaded, I understand that.

Speaker 5 (01:37:06):
I mean, that's why we have jurors, and that's why
everybody has the right to.

Speaker 6 (01:37:10):
Confront their witnesses. Yeah, it's called confrontational clause. You got
a right to confront and what comes out comes out.

Speaker 3 (01:37:19):
Well, that was great.

Speaker 1 (01:37:20):
It's a long interview that would have to be edited,
poor Janet, But I think we did talk about some
important things and I just know that, you know, I'll
be trying to follow the law. I ain't saying that
I get things right all the time, and I'm not
talking about from a law perspective. I'm just saying in life,
we all have issues, but the.

Speaker 3 (01:37:38):
Law, the rules.

Speaker 1 (01:37:40):
I be trying my best to stay within them unless
I'm breaking them on behalf of our people.

Speaker 3 (01:37:45):
And other than that, I don't you know, And that's
a whole other dynamic.

Speaker 6 (01:37:49):
Right, You're just talking about black on black on black
on black and you got white jurorsdy and it's just like,
this is what you're doing, right.

Speaker 5 (01:37:57):
There's no empathy or sympathy. That's what you're That's what
y'all do. And I tell people this all the time.

Speaker 6 (01:38:05):
But if we were empowered and everything was black, we
would still have the same dynamics that exists. There'll be
less of blacks in the pool of blacks mm hm,
and they'll be underprivileged blacks in a pool of blacks,
and you still have the dynamic that you have, you
know what I mean. I would love to be in
that world. But you're still gonna have the same classism

(01:38:27):
and the dynamics that you have. Once classism comes into play,
people have different interest that's it is off. That's why
only the only the best revolutions with the one where
you eat well and eating as soon as you get
a piece.

Speaker 5 (01:38:40):
Of slice of bread.

Speaker 3 (01:38:43):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:38:44):
Attorney Royce Russell thanks for joining us, thank you for
being on the TMO Show today, and just thank you
for being you always, always, thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:38:52):
For having.

Speaker 2 (01:38:56):
Race gave us a lot of good feedback about how
we see it, you know, because there's a lot, like
I've said, there's a lot of different questions about Puffy's case,
and you know, how the reco thing is working, how
the sex trafficking thing works, and not a thing.

Speaker 4 (01:39:13):
It is a thing.

Speaker 1 (01:39:14):
It's not It's really not it's not. No, it's not
the sex trafficking thing. I think we have to be
very mindful and careful and sex trafficking charges, how reco
charges and sex trafficking charges not the thing, sir?

Speaker 6 (01:39:32):
What?

Speaker 3 (01:39:33):
No, Okay, forget it. I'm wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:39:35):
I just don't understand, like we know that they're charges.
I'm saying, the sex trafficking thing. The thing that it
is is sex trafficking, and those happen to be charges. Well,
we just got to make it this particular thing.

Speaker 3 (01:39:49):
No, it's not that.

Speaker 1 (01:39:50):
It's just that I think we have to be mindful
that the level of seriousness that we apply to it
when speaking is the level of seriousness that I think
our people will understand. How they can be incriminating themselves.
So that's the reason why I said it. But the
thing is fine, It's just that I get a sense

(01:40:13):
from some of our folks that, you know, to Royce's point,
it won't happen.

Speaker 3 (01:40:20):
To me, or I can dibble and dabble a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
And to your point, our young men need to really
really be mindful and women and women need to really
be mindful that a little something could turn into a
big something and you be messed up for a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:40:40):
It's very, very troubling, you know, when you look at
the implications, when you look at the reality of what
we're dealing with in just the justice system or in
just black men, to see it as an injustice system.
And it's not saying that this situation is injustice because
a man should be held accountable for everything he does.

Speaker 4 (01:41:01):
But we just know, like you said, when.

Speaker 2 (01:41:04):
White people get twenty years, we're gonna get two hundred years.
So this is just the reality. So that's what I'm saying.
We have to be mindful of exactly what's going on.
We have to understand that the legal system was never
meant to show us justice or fairness. And then we
also have to understand that you're going to be held

(01:41:24):
accountable for the things that you do.

Speaker 1 (01:41:26):
Well, yeah, and I think there are people out here
that would argue Mice that when you say that, you know,
it gives people a way to argue about something other
than the situation, which I get your point is that
that's a part of the situation. Well, right, Well, if
we have to look at the situation, because I wasn't

(01:41:49):
we're trying to say puff or Cassie or this person
at that person, because there's so so many different people
with arguments and thoughts and whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:41:57):
I'm just saying that I find whenever we.

Speaker 1 (01:42:01):
Are able to say, well, you know, the black man
isn't treated fairly in the system. I noticed that a
lot of people are saying that and using it as
an excuse.

Speaker 2 (01:42:12):
Why I wouldn't say it's an excuse, It's just a reality.
And that doesn't take away that if you do a crime,
and you should be held accountable for the crime you do.
But we can't ignore the fact that when you say,
when we talk about a rico charge, and even though
Royce said, well it doesn't they never said that it

(01:42:34):
had to be other people involved in rigal. We can't
ignore the fact that the only time those things didn't happen,
that there weren't other co defenders, that it was two
black men.

Speaker 3 (01:42:43):
Yeah, I just.

Speaker 4 (01:42:45):
But that's the fact.

Speaker 1 (01:42:46):
But okay, but you didn't say that when you asked Royce,
you said, I'm not one hundred percent sure, but this
is what I heard, and if that is true.

Speaker 4 (01:42:54):
And when he said.

Speaker 1 (01:42:55):
We never said he never you or not because we
don't know. We don't know, And what happens is that
becomes if it is not true, right, that true? No,
But the problem is that people never stick around for correction.

Speaker 3 (01:43:11):
They never hear that.

Speaker 1 (01:43:12):
So when we state things like that that we don't
necessarily know if it's true or not, it becomes a
part of this No, I.

Speaker 2 (01:43:21):
Said, we can't ignore okay, so let me change it.
Let me change the verbage. We can't ignore it that
if that is true, right, because I've That's why when
it was that's why most of us who've been in
the legal system, who are just as impacted, we're confused
because I have yet to see any other reco charge
with their weren't code efan.

Speaker 3 (01:43:42):
But that's a But that's the first of all, I
think that.

Speaker 1 (01:43:44):
I agree with that that I usually see a bunch
of people that are involved at least more than two people.
But I would always caution us because what we're really
saying is we haven't seen it in high profile cases
because none of us us know about every case from
people who live from Utah to Alabama to nobody knows that,

(01:44:08):
and so you can't say what has only happened to R.
Kelly and Puff when we don't know, right, perhaps from
a high profile perspective, that may be the case. We
don't know, but I think it's very dangerous because what
happens is that becomes people's excuse instead of addressing the

(01:44:29):
actual issues at hand.

Speaker 2 (01:44:30):
Ain't nobody Once again, nobody is not addressed, afraid or
ignoring the issues at hand. If someone did something wrong,
they should be held accountable, but nobody should ignore that.
Based on the knowledge that we have that I've had,
and I've seen many people. I got friends that's been
locked up for ricos, I know strangers that be locked

(01:44:51):
up for ricos.

Speaker 4 (01:44:52):
I have never.

Speaker 2 (01:44:53):
Seen anybody outside of those because I wasn't even thinking
about the Kelly case when it was actually set until
your bads brought up I got the information on your baths.

Speaker 4 (01:45:03):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:45:03):
I didn't actually double check it, but I heard him
say it, and he said it confidently. So if I'm
wrong or if well he's wrong, then we'll correct it.
But I've yet I know this for a fact. I've
never seen a federal recocase where there was only one
defender outside of those two situations. And I didn't even
realize that they had charged l Kelly with the federal recoacher.

(01:45:24):
I just never seen it before, you know what I'm saying,
that was something I've never seen before. So just saying
it's like Dann, that's really that's really strange. But like
Royce said, even though that it's something that we haven't seen,
there's no criteria to say that it can't.

Speaker 1 (01:45:39):
Happen, right because because the criminal enterprise is the fact
that multiple people participated in.

Speaker 3 (01:45:48):
I told you I read this. That's why I kept.

Speaker 1 (01:45:51):
Saying I was arguing with different people because I went
to go read all of it so that I could
understand from various perspectives what's happened. In a way, what
am I seeing and what I kept reading was people
who helped further further, so further means that you assisted
me in doing this thing.

Speaker 3 (01:46:10):
It does not mean that you were the particular.

Speaker 1 (01:46:17):
Entity or damn subject of it, but you helped further it.
So I guess what we're hearing from Royce is that
as long as those people have something that corroborates or
provides evidence that you were using and bringing different people
into this criminal activity, then that somehow that makes their case.

(01:46:40):
So that for me, again putting this particular legal matter
to the side, but just sitting and focused on how
we live every single day. He's saying, you picking up people,
you taking them over here. They might mention this and that,
and we live our lives, some of us, we all
live our lives free in that you know what I'm saying.

(01:47:01):
So you got your cousin or your homie that you
know he'd be into stuff all the time. But now
you got him in your car and you taking him
X y Z place, you a female, you know who,
your boyfriend or whatever. You know, stuff is a little weird.
You ain't sure exactly how he's living. And then you're
moving him around, you letting him drive your car. You're

(01:47:21):
doing nothing. You're innocently participating in a rico.

Speaker 4 (01:47:26):
And that's what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 3 (01:47:27):
That's the Sari.

Speaker 2 (01:47:28):
That's why I said the Rico charge was designed for
you not to be able to be there.

Speaker 4 (01:47:32):
It was first initiated to rich mafia bosses.

Speaker 2 (01:47:36):
That's how they put them under the stature because a
lot of people didn't want to tell on people. So
they figured out a way that we can make sure
that it's no way that you're not guilty of something.

Speaker 4 (01:47:46):
The fact that you know this.

Speaker 2 (01:47:47):
Person and if we have an inkland that you know
him and you was aware that he was ever committed
criminal acts and you still continue to deal with him,
and you did anything we could connect you to that,
and that's how they usually heated d Rico. What they
did was even when you look at Young Thug's case,
right Gunna, they never charged Gunna with anything but just
being in the car, and they made him utilize his

(01:48:10):
voice to say that that it was a criminal that
YSL was a criminal enterprise, even though they did even
say he did a crime, he was just in a car.
So this is what I'm trying to say. It's not
designed for you to win. It's designed for everybody that's
connected to you to feel like Damn, I have to
say something, even if I ain't got nothing to do it.

(01:48:31):
I have to corroborate their story to make it look
like there's a crime, even if it's not a crime.
And that's it's just it's unfortunate because you got a
bunch of people on your indictment that you don't even
know they got indictments, and Rico charges people you never seen,
and you're connected to that person through another person who
made a phone call to another person. All these people
having to be your codafitist, and when they say that

(01:48:53):
they did something, they come back and say, Yo, you
need to cop out because these people said this and
they connected to you. And the average person is like, Yo,
how the fuck do I beat this? You start looking
at the criterias and you start looking at what they
saying you did and then saying, well, it's saying even
if you didn't know, and this and that and that
and that, you're still liable. It's like, what the fuck

(01:49:13):
is It's a it's an abyss. It is a fucking
un You can't get to the bottom of it. Most
I'm telling you, there are very few people like like
you said, they're one to two percent people that actually
beat the federal rico, because most people look at that
shit and say, it's no where I can win.

Speaker 4 (01:49:29):
So most what happens is.

Speaker 2 (01:49:30):
People cop out because they're like, yo, I know this person,
and I probably knew he was locked up before, but
I think we was going to do this.

Speaker 4 (01:49:38):
My man was sitting in jail for a RICO charging.

Speaker 2 (01:49:40):
The room because the dude walks that he walked by
the room and he think he's seen him sitting there, right,
And somebody else said that they was gonna kill somebody,
and they said that they thought they seen him in
the room. He didn't have nothing to do with the murder.
He didn't do anything niggative. Twenty five years, twenty five years.
So this shit is is not designed for you to win.

Speaker 1 (01:50:01):
And that's the problem with these types of cases is
that it's triggering other conversations that you know, because when
I get down to the bottom line in different dialogues
with people, and a lot of people, like I said,
they won't bring this case up to me, not really
because they understand, you know, what issues I have in

(01:50:27):
terms of not having people going and reporting that to
Meek Mallory said this, that and the third thing, we're
not doing that right.

Speaker 3 (01:50:34):
And so they know.

Speaker 1 (01:50:37):
But men, some of the men in my life have
had extensive conversations and I realize as I'm talking to them,
they're dealing with a trauma that is far beyond this case.
But then that trauma, and I guess women do this
as well, becomes a part of another. And and I'm saying, like,

(01:50:58):
just hear yourself. Hear what you're saying. Say that back
to yourself and put your son or your daughter or
whatever in that situation. And then they'll be like, well,
that's not exactly you know what I mean. So I'm
saying all of that to say, we just need to
be very careful. And I know for a fact that

(01:51:20):
when I was seventy, it's in my book. I write
about it in the book, finding out that this guy
that I was dating, who I was so in love with,
who was definitely older than me, the man had drugs
in the and money money. I don't think he had drugs,
he had money in the floor of his house right

(01:51:42):
on edgecomb Avenue, had money in the in the in
the floor of his house.

Speaker 3 (01:51:46):
And I'm just the.

Speaker 1 (01:51:49):
Just walking around like nothing, moving around with zip ties
and laundry bags in the trunk, and I'm just happy
to be there, knowing, knowing my son that I don't
have anything to do with any of this. So when
they asked me, I'm going to say, I don't know

(01:52:11):
nothing about that, and they gotta let me go because
I'm not on no tape. I didn't go nowhere, I
didn't do nothing. And what I'm hearing is it don't
work like that.

Speaker 4 (01:52:20):
Don't work like that, do not work like that.

Speaker 2 (01:52:22):
They're gonna you saw something with you telling us you
saw the money, because we need you to testify that you.

Speaker 3 (01:52:28):
But I don't want to testify it because I don't
even know.

Speaker 2 (01:52:30):
That's where the rico comes in, because the fact that
you saw the money and the money was part of
this criminal enterprise, and you saw zip ties and and
you saw those things, and you your your logical mind
should have told you that there was a legal activity.

Speaker 3 (01:52:46):
And if I really didn't think to swear and it.

Speaker 2 (01:52:49):
Took me, you should have thought it. And if we're
gonna say, if you don't testify to what you saw,
then we're gonna say that you was accomplished. And that's
how it that, that's how that's what they do. So
that's what I'm trying to tell you. That's why it's
not it's not designed.

Speaker 4 (01:53:05):
For us to win.

Speaker 2 (01:53:06):
But it's also triggering, right because you know, as a
black man, and you look at whether they're guilty or not,
it just seems to me like all of our black
men who reach a certain status, it's something that has
to do with sexual assault. It's not all I'm talking

(01:53:26):
the ones, the ones that they eliminate, the ones that
have eliminated. It's the same situation. And I'm not saying
it's not true or whatever. I'm just saying when we
look at the top men who have been eliminated, is
around the same thing. And it's like, damn, It's just.

Speaker 1 (01:53:46):
It's like, but I think that that is a conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:53:53):
For It's a conversation that needs to be had.

Speaker 1 (01:53:59):
Yes, is the system problematic, for sure, But it's also
about the choices that we.

Speaker 3 (01:54:06):
Make, and when.

Speaker 1 (01:54:07):
We mix drugs with money and power, the lines get
real blurred and a lot of things happen, and then
you have stupidity. Also because I'm gonna say, until the
wheels fall off the bus that Shannon Sharp, that was
just stupid. And I'm not talking about drugs or any
of that. I'm not accusing him of anything like that,

(01:54:30):
But I'm just saying, the judgment of being fifty something
and getting yourself involved with a nineteen whatever age, twenty
year old, nothing good can come of it. It's just
no way that it's gonna work out for you because eventually,
to Elliott Connie's point, you're using them purely for sex, purely,

(01:54:52):
and guess what happens. Eventually they use you back, and
you might not like the way you're used back.

Speaker 3 (01:55:00):
And by the way, they don't have anything to lose.

Speaker 4 (01:55:04):
And I hear everything you're saying.

Speaker 3 (01:55:05):
So we gotta be more mindful of the choices we made.

Speaker 2 (01:55:09):
Reality is most of the eighty year old Richmon. We
know it's dating forty women forty and fifty years young.

Speaker 3 (01:55:16):
Why do y'all not understand.

Speaker 2 (01:55:17):
I'm just telling you. I'm not saying we don't understand.
We already established we understand. It's a different playbook.

Speaker 1 (01:55:23):
No, that's not what I'm saying. Is but that wasn't
what I was going to say. Why do y'all not
understand that there is a difference in the mind of
a nineteen twenty year old and a forty year old,
so you can be.

Speaker 2 (01:55:35):
You don't think it's a difference in a month of
if I'm eighty and you're thirty.

Speaker 4 (01:55:39):
No, you don't think that.

Speaker 3 (01:55:40):
You're no thirty, thirty, thirty.

Speaker 4 (01:55:42):
These eighty year olds is dad in twenty three and
twenty four?

Speaker 1 (01:55:45):
And I think that that's a problem. I think that's
a problem. But I'm saying. What I'm saying is that
if I'm forty and even thirty something and you're eighty
or your seventy, that is a big different. Friends, between
you being forty and fifty and this per and this
person woman or man nineteen.

Speaker 4 (01:56:07):
His mine may be depraved. He's getting he's losing his
he's losing his forty year old.

Speaker 3 (01:56:13):
As you start getting eighty, ad man, Yeah, as.

Speaker 4 (01:56:16):
You start getting older, your mind you losing capacity. Actually
a lot of men are losing Why not.

Speaker 3 (01:56:22):
You don't think it's okay?

Speaker 2 (01:56:25):
You don't think so, because y'all as you know that
you we know that that woman.

Speaker 3 (01:56:28):
Is pure eighty years old.

Speaker 2 (01:56:31):
We know that the average eighty twenty something year old woman,
that's what the eighty old man is there for one reason,
this is the bottom line, that's it.

Speaker 1 (01:56:41):
Well, and then guess what happens when the man throw
you out and mistreat you.

Speaker 3 (01:56:46):
I don't want to hear it, but you're gonna.

Speaker 2 (01:56:48):
Hear it, because what happens is they gonna say that
something went wrong and you still got a man still
gonna be held accountable. So that's his the reect. So
that pretty much brings me to my I don't get it.
Like I asked Royce about, you know, the situation with
Meg and the new evidence in Tory Lane's case, I
just don't get why Kelsey is not being arrested right.
And my theory behind it is this, I still you know,

(01:57:11):
am I believe that you know, the court got it right.
That's just my personal opinion. It's based off the evidence
that I've seen, based off the conversation, based off the
text message from Kelsey, her testimony, the gun where it
was at, all these things, him saying on Instagram that
underneath her post that she didn't do all these things
led me to believe that the course got it right.

(01:57:33):
But let's say they didn't right. Let's say she did
shoot us. Let's say all these things happened. She's guilty
of perjury. She didn't shoot her, then she's still guilty
of instructing justice because she had an opportunity. She still
has the opportunity to tell the reality of what happened.
The statement that she gave to the DA and to

(01:57:55):
the investigators prior to the trial, which was her in court,
pretty much aligned with what Meg had said. Right then
when she went to court, obviously something changed and she
was being evasive, trying to plead the fifth All types
of things came there with a lawyer, you know, was
granted immunity.

Speaker 4 (01:58:15):
All these things.

Speaker 2 (01:58:16):
Changed, right, So whatever happened in that dynamic, she was
intentionally trying to obstruct justice. And if she got on
that stand and she shot that lady and she didn't.
When she was asked, did she shoot Meghan, she said no.
And if they're saying now that there's evidence saying that

(01:58:36):
she did, and it's going to be presented, then she
should be either charged with shooting her and them saying
that she lied about saying that she didn't shoot up.
And if she didn't shoot up, then she should be
forced to actually have to give the real account of
what happened openly in a trial.

Speaker 1 (01:58:54):
And but we didn't get a chance to ask Royce
once you had immunity, No, but we did, because.

Speaker 2 (01:59:05):
Yeah, we did say he said that. It's a whole
different thing. It's obstructing justice that you it's perjury because
if you get.

Speaker 1 (01:59:12):
Immunity, that's just because you have immunity is for the
purpose of you telling the truth, no matter how incriminate,
and it.

Speaker 2 (01:59:17):
Is exactly and if they find out that you lied
anytime during giving that statement, then the community goes out
the window. Right, that's what they do, like they give
they have had my bosses say, they say, tell us
all about everybody, and we're gonna give you immunity, and
everything is covered. If they find out one thing outside
of that is not covered in an immunity, right, they

(01:59:39):
find out you lied about one of those things, then
the whole thing goes off the table.

Speaker 4 (01:59:43):
So in this situation, this lady committed perjury. One way
or another.

Speaker 2 (01:59:48):
She committed perjury and she's obstructed justice. And I think
you know, Tory Lane's trying to figure out how to
get home. He's gonna figure out everything, he gonna pull
every stop. That's what happens when you're in prison, right,
wrong difference, nobody wants to sit in jail for ten years.
She is the only person that has made testimony who
has flip flopped, and she's been accused of actually the

(02:00:10):
actual shooting, and she's not being held accountable to even
tell the full account would happen on anything, And I
think at this point she is the person that should
be in jail.

Speaker 4 (02:00:20):
I think Megan was trying to get justice for her.
She believed that this happened.

Speaker 3 (02:00:23):
I don't think to be in jail.

Speaker 4 (02:00:25):
She should be in jail.

Speaker 3 (02:00:26):
I think, Kelsey, you think she.

Speaker 4 (02:00:30):
Should be doing I'm saying, if you're going you do you.

Speaker 3 (02:00:33):
Believe that a trial should take place.

Speaker 4 (02:00:36):
I believe this. I believe this. I think there should
be a hearing.

Speaker 2 (02:00:40):
But I think either one of these two things makes
you more comfortable than anybody to me, because if you
are the person who were trying to shoot Meg and
Tory and you allowed him to go to jail for
shooting her, then you should be in jail, which is
not I don't based on evidence, I don't really see that.
But if that's what it is, and we find out

(02:01:02):
that's true, then she should be in jail. If you
weren't the person and you're allowing this evidence to come out,
you're allowing this continue to be put into the universe
without being given clarification. Then it's more than likely to
me you took the bride, right, So I think you
either took the money and you're trying whatever it is.

(02:01:23):
You are instructing justice and you need to go to jail.
And I don't think I don't think that nobody's paying
attention to it. I think you know, Meg, No, really
they're not. They're just most people saying Meg lide and
Meg did this, and nobody's really focusing on Kelsey. There's
no there's really no backlash for Kelsey. I don't really
see anybody on when I go on these says, oh

(02:01:44):
Meg lit she did this, she did this, and Kelsey
is not getting to me. Kelsey is more cultortable than
anybody else. And I think people should be calling for
her to be arrested and for her to actually be
charged with obstructing justice. And I think when you do that,
we'll start getting to the bottom of it, actually what happened,
because I don't understand for the life of me, how

(02:02:06):
Tory Lane sat there and said he was trying to
protect her when she openly said text message saying that
he shot her, that he shot Meg, said he beat
her up, he had he listened to a whole testimony
of her, a whole tape of her giving a statement
saying that he was the shooter. I don't what are

(02:02:26):
you trying to protect him for? Right, Well, why wouldn't
you get up there and save your name? I would
never do it. I don't know anybody.

Speaker 4 (02:02:33):
Else that's that brave or that heroic. Right.

Speaker 2 (02:02:36):
You can't say that you were trying to protect Meg
in my system, because you spent over a year gas
lighting the woman, saying that it was gonna come out
in court and the truth would be known and all
these things, and you didn't do those things. So when
you now, all of a sudden you were trying to
protect two black women, it doesn't really make sense to me.
But let's say that theory is true. Kelsey should be
in jail. That's just my position at this point. It's like,

(02:03:01):
come on, girl, you you you had the power to
stop whatever it was if you shot him, and you
shot her and this and that you had the opportunity
to do anything right. If you didn't shoot her, you
had the opportunity to come forward and say just be clear.
But you you're allowing this, for whatever reason, you're allowing
this to go too far, and you're just quiet. And

(02:03:24):
I don't think she should have the right to just
be quiet about the situation that's affected somebody's life, affecting
other people's life. That you could just go home. Megan's
gonna be called a liar and this and that, Tori's
gonna be in jail and people are gonna say that
he shouldn't be there. There's gonna be all of this
stuff that people are dealing with, and you're just sitting
in the house and you're the main piece of this
and there's no consequences for nothing that you've done. I

(02:03:46):
just don't think that's okay, Okay, just my personal.

Speaker 3 (02:03:53):
Position, I don't.

Speaker 1 (02:03:56):
I just feel like we're living in a world that
is so weird that I don't even know how to
discuss it. There's nothing, there's no amount of money you
could pay me to make me believe that that woman
was in the car with a man she don't know,
that she just met, and that she just said in

(02:04:17):
front of that man casually that she was the person
responsible for killing or excuse me for shooting Meggie Stallion.

Speaker 3 (02:04:24):
There is nothing nobody could pay me.

Speaker 1 (02:04:28):
But to your point, just like I said about all
these other people, if someone brings that type of charge
against you, or they feel like they know and they
think they can prove it, they deserve to have their
day in court. And so I want to see it
play out. I want to see it play out anyway,

(02:04:49):
As I already said that, I want to see it
play out because I want I just want to see
it play out. I want to see what happens with
the court. I want to see it all display out too.

Speaker 2 (02:05:02):
But I'm gonna give a breakdown on my YouTube page
about this because I really have real deep conversation. I
don't want to go dive too deep into it here,
but it's just a lot. It's really it's really telling
where we are in media, social media, just in this world,
and how a narrative can be spun so deep that

(02:05:23):
it's in this rabbit hole that the facts get so
muddy and misconstrued that people ignore the facts and we
just deal with the fiction. And people understand that there
are people like Donald Trump who understands that I don't
have to tell the truth, right, I get to say
what the fuck I want, and y'all gonna grab it.

(02:05:43):
Nobody cares about the truth is if it's more entertaining,
if it lie is more entertaining, people want to grab
onto something. And if I continue to throw out bullshit
and just say bullshit and y'all grab on to it
without doing any research or anything, that's what happens. People
are saying, oh, her body this is this is her
quote unquote bodyguard.

Speaker 4 (02:06:02):
Kelsey didn't have a bodyguard.

Speaker 2 (02:06:04):
This is a driver who drove, drove to her, drove
with her for probably about an hour or two hours
within the two days period to go to court in home. Right,
this is within the two But they say this is
her bodyguard. Nobody even is doing the research to say, no, oh,
this was.

Speaker 4 (02:06:21):
The driver who drove he to court. Where did this
driver even come from her?

Speaker 3 (02:06:24):
Where did she get a She didn't know how, she
didn't know.

Speaker 2 (02:06:27):
She didn't even know who paid for her lawyers. They
asked her, pay for your lawyer?

Speaker 4 (02:06:32):
Maybe she was and then she was, or don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:06:34):
This man and the man and the man sat there
heard this with a person. He doesn't know that he
has no particular loyalty he doesn't know her. And another
man was going through this and he sat there and said, Nah,
you know, I ain't gonna say nothing because I'm loyal

(02:06:56):
to this girl who's in here ad knitting in front
of me.

Speaker 3 (02:07:02):
Y'all got it. I mean, if that's what y'all want
to run with, I'm cool with it.

Speaker 1 (02:07:05):
I'm not I wouldn't sit here and say, oh, this
is stupid that it needs to just be dismissed. No,
I think they should go right on down the Let's
all I know is that, did you I went to court.

Speaker 3 (02:07:20):
That's all I'm gonna keep saying. So I went to court,
and I know.

Speaker 1 (02:07:23):
What the jury heard and all of the ship that
that gets the social media jury, that's not the one
that be in the court, and the court is the
real jury.

Speaker 3 (02:07:32):
Right now? Can juries be biased? Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (02:07:37):
Did this jury just see him as a black man
that they want to send to jail from the look
the makeup of the jurors.

Speaker 3 (02:07:45):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (02:07:46):
But it's possible that there was some bias in every
single one of those jurors. Mine that was of a
cross section of racial backgrounds.

Speaker 3 (02:07:54):
It's not like the white, all white jury.

Speaker 1 (02:07:57):
You know, this is it was a cross stction of
individuals where they biased and they just want to throw
them in jail. Cool was the judge paid off? And
because you know that'sn't gonna be their thing. Rock Nation
paid for the prosecutor, the judge, the jury, everything, every
single body, every party.

Speaker 4 (02:08:17):
If you could say, it becomes fact.

Speaker 3 (02:08:19):
Don and I.

Speaker 1 (02:08:21):
But I pray that they find a way to prove
every other people.

Speaker 3 (02:08:28):
Wrong if they can.

Speaker 1 (02:08:31):
And after all, I'm just leaving at that because tell
you the truth.

Speaker 3 (02:08:35):
I think.

Speaker 1 (02:08:36):
I think focus, I sit back and I listen, and
I see certain things in certain people, and I just
say to myself.

Speaker 2 (02:08:44):
Wow, we're in some very strange times. Wow, we're in
very strange times. But there's that man that brings us
to an end of another episode of t M. I
make sure you continue to follow us. Tell us you
love us, tell us you hate us.

Speaker 3 (02:08:59):
They don't. I don't know why you welcome people to tell.

Speaker 4 (02:09:01):
Us because I don't I want to be loved that.

Speaker 1 (02:09:03):
Hey, you should tell them to tell you that on
your page, but don't come tell me you hate me.

Speaker 3 (02:09:08):
I don't need to know. I'm sorry, not interested.

Speaker 2 (02:09:11):
Make sure you follow us and tell us what you
want to hear from us, tell us you love me.
Don't tell her you hate her, Just tell her you
love her. And let us know who you want us
to interview. Tell us what you like, what you don't like.
We just want to hear from you. Continue to make
us the number one podcast in the world. Make sure
you follow us on Instagram at tami Underscore Show and
then follow us on YouTube at TMI Show PC.

Speaker 4 (02:09:34):
We love you. I'm not gonna always be right, Tamika
d marriage and I can always be

Speaker 2 (02:09:38):
Wrong, but we both always and I mean always be
authentic pace That's how we

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Hosts And Creators

Mysonne

Tamika Mallory

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