February 13, 2024 • 43 mins
The Northwest Coast is well known for totem poles, bentwood boxes, Chilkat blankets, wall screens, and many more items that are significant cultural property of Indigenous peoples of the area. We are joined by master Lingít artist Yéil Yádi Nathan Jackson, who has been a practicing artist for over six decades and whose works have been installed worldwide. He shares his journey of becoming an artist, how we witnessed the artwork returning to production and advises future generations of carvers.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode contains a term that has historically been used
to describe northern Native peoples of Alaska and Canada. While
this is common among Alaska Native elders and commonly used
internally among particular groups, public use of this term is discouraged.
The preferred term for Northern Alaska Natives are Yupik or Nubiach.
(00:21):
And on the Tongue unbroken, we celebrate sovereignty, self determination
and being called what you'd like to be called Gonchisch, Kroyan.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Doctah.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
They try to colonizs, try to genocide, yet we're still
here with the tongue on broke, and welcome to the
tongue unbroken, folks, We are coming to you on the road.
In the work studio of Ye Shieddi Nathan Jackson, who
(01:06):
is a revered elder among the Shinge and is a
master carver who has works all around the world, totem poles, screens, houses,
dance frontlets, that so many wonderful things, and Nathan is
an incredible force in the movement to bring Shinget artwork
(01:29):
back to a place of prominence. There was a time
when there weren't very many people carving there weren't very
many people who understood the rules of design, and Nathan
Jackson is one of the people who really helped bring
that back in our region. There's other people in other areas,
among the Haida, the Simschian, further down the coast. There
(01:50):
are scholars like Bill Holme, and there are scholars like
Steve Brown. They're not just scholars, they're also incredible artists themselves.
But Nathan is also my uncle, so I'm very happy
to get to work with him and spend time with him. So, Nathan,
can you tell the people who you are and how
you got to be where you're at right now.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
One of the things that happened was as a child
growing up, I always kind of took interest in artwork.
Even as a boy, I drew, but I didn't know
what I was doing half of the time because drawing
was something that somebody else did that you had to
(02:34):
copy or try to excel in what you do, and
so that's kind of one of the things that happened.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
I was raised in Hanes.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
For a while when I was with my great uncle
Jack David and we set netted for a bit and
then I was introduced to his step son, which is
Ted Lawrence. Ted Lawrence was carving during the wintertime. You
(03:07):
end up either play cards or kill time doing that
when the weather was pretty bad. And so that's kind
of where he was at in Haines and you listen
to the whistling wind that came from Skagway. And so
(03:27):
I thought, well, I never really got into playing cards
and doing that type of thing, much rather do something
else with my hands. And Ted saw, I think he
saw that. So he challenged me to carve a little
tiny totem pole. I thought, well, okay, I can do that,
(03:48):
there's no problem. Well he says, well, how about doing
a little tiny one. I'll carve one and with my
pocket knife, and he had a piece of cedar, and
so I ended up copying it, tried to copy it
as close as I possibly can, and I ended up
(04:09):
doing a couple of them, And that was the first experience.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
And with his tools, not mine.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
With his tools he had pocket knives sharpen really good.
And so I thought, well, this is all right, but
how can anybody make money off of these little tiny things? So,
as it turns out, I ended up doing a few,
but more as a young fellow. He had buddies that
(04:41):
wanted to go out and do different things, and some
I thought were kind of foolish things, but then also
even dancing Indian and they prepared for Fourth July and
they did some dancing singing songs, and they and those songs.
(05:04):
Jack was the leader in that, and his thlinket name
was the Quest, which is Seal Killer. And the whole
family kind of got together. Louise Williams, Jack David's wife,
Elizabeth David, and even Jack's sister came in and started singing.
(05:30):
And so a whole bunch of people started gathering together
as they sang, and Burt Dennis and Missus Burke Dennis
and they started singing, singing, dancing, and I thought, oh man,
I'm stuck here, like to be with my buddies. And
I didn't realize that they were practicing for Fourth of
(05:53):
July parade, and so I got involved with that whole business. Well, okay,
I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to
try to keep the beat and watch what everybody else
is doing. And then they got a truck, a big
(06:13):
flat bed a flat and so it started dancing on
the truck. I started dancing and I was having a
good time. I noticed my buddies that were out there
watching in the parade. They were just kind of standing around,
(06:34):
not doing anything at all, and I was having a
real great time. I even got in front and started
dancing on.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
The hood of the vehicle, the truck.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
And so then over the years I ended up dancing
with the two Cat dancers.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Now I had to.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Remember movements that a lot of the old timers did
to be able to continue doing dancing, and knowing what
movements they made with their head, what movements they made
with their blanket, what movements they did with their feet,
(07:17):
and so with all that, I became pretty good in dancing.
And so I thought, well, okay, and it's just a
momentary thing. It wasn't something that was prolonged for me.
But I ended up dancing with the Chilcat Dancers. And
so one of the things like, for instance, listening to
(07:39):
Dan Katzi saying the song and there are songs that
you sing that are interior type songs. And there was
a little bit more flashier dance movements that were done.
And there were certain people that really were pretty good.
People from the Terrier, for instance, they were just wow.
(08:04):
They really super dancers, and so I started watching closely
in movements that were made, and I really enjoyed doing
that type of thing. And my mom she enjoyed doing
little raven dances, so I kind of watched her and
(08:26):
I did a raven mask for myself at one point,
and then I start doing the raven dance, and so
that was one of the key things that I did,
especially when we traveled around with the native families. And
also I did the dance in the museum with Rosita
(08:47):
was kind of heading this whole dance troupe up with
a gathering that we should kind of end up being
involved in this dance. So I just felt the read
them in doing these dances like celebration when that comes about,
I kind of think everybody liked to do these dances,
(09:10):
otherwise they wouldn't, and so it was kind of a
hallmark for us as Native people enjoying dancing. And so
I kind of felt like anytime that I was asked
to help, I do my very best. But anymore realizing
that as time goes by, you get old and you
(09:31):
can't do what you used to do, but you go
ahead and be part of the singing group. Then My
thing was learning new songs, and some of it was
pretty hard, some of it was easy. Some of the repeats,
like for instance, the Athabaskan songs were quite quite simple
(09:54):
and repeated songs. And I enjoy doing that, but Carl,
I mean, it is a different thing. And so I
had to make a livelihood out of that because of
getting tools, learning who makes the best tools.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
And a lot of it.
Speaker 5 (10:13):
When I think back on it, there are certain people
that were really good at making tools, and I figured, hey,
I can buy tools and then I can have my
own tools. And so I just tried to get the best.
And so that was one of those things being an artist,
being a carver, just keep going. And my team was
(10:37):
can you do it? Yeah, you can do it. You
can do it.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Yeah, just just a challenge.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
And so I take up these little ideas and then
you know, make them, whether they were mask balls, anything.
And there was a fellow who worked in the Alaska
State Museum named Peter Corey, and Peter Corey was a
curator at the museum, and he kept on challenging me
(11:09):
to make small bowls. And he'd bring in a piece
of wood older and so I'd have to make a
little tiny bowl, and so after the bowl, other things
started coming in, and then the jewelry that was another thing.
A lot of these guys were pretty good anyway. There
(11:32):
was Tommy Jimmy Senor, there was Leo Jacobs, there was
Wes Willard, there was Lincoln Wallace and Amos Wallace. Those
guys were really good at what they did. And I
think I challenged myself to do much better in every
(11:52):
area of that. And so it became small designs, not big,
small designs on brace and those type of things, and
I didn't do too bad. I did small rings and
so on, and they thought, well, I.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Can do it.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
There's a lot of different challenges that come with doing
smaller stuff than the bigger and what kind of design
do you want? Well, there's some that are weird selections
of like even right now, there's somebody who wants a
butterfly design, wants a hummingbird design. Those type of things
(12:33):
are just kind of like drive me crazy.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, those are not as common, and so Thlinget, the
artwork that is done a lot among the Thinget people's
represents a particular crest, which is the image of an
animal or some sort of supernatural being that's used usually
by a clan. So there's this list of things that
folks can draw from. And so as you got into
(12:56):
dancing and you started to get into artwork, and how
did you go from some of these smaller pieces, Like
you're talking about making a bracelet is a pretty small area.
You're going to engrave it onto a piece of silver
or copper or gold. And then you're looking at the
bulls which you're going to carve out of wood, and
they're going to be three dimensional and usually have some
(13:17):
sort of animal form often on it. But as you
were sort of growing up, did you see a lot
of totem poles around and were people making very many
totem poles?
Speaker 5 (13:27):
Well, first of all, I didn't see people doing it
totem poles and that type of thing. But the opportunity
of being able to go to places in Klakwan to
see some of the best works I've ever seen, you know,
in northwest coast just looking at it. I didn't have
(13:50):
a camera. I didn't have that much money to buy
a camera, but a lot of that I had to
kind of stick in my mind and try to retain
it all the time. But there was pictures of a
lot of things that were done in books. So my
(14:12):
change of step was looking at books that contained good artwork.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
And so it's not the same.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
It's not the same as looking directly at an art piece.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
But I had the.
Speaker 5 (14:28):
Opportunity of being able to see these nice pieces up
in Klakwan. Then in Wrangell that same artist his name
was Cargas Storch, and he did some absolutely wonderful works.
I would say that it was pretty hard to copy.
(14:49):
And the type of material that he used in Klakwan
was spruce, and that wood is hard wood comparatively to
red cedar, and so that fellow must have had several
carvers work with him. And it was more recently that
(15:11):
I said to Steve Brown, I says, hey, I have
this guy who is left handed and he does really well,
and he thinks that maybe Kagistrosch had a left handed
fellow working with him, you know, And so that makes
sense to me because that way, if he did one side,
(15:36):
but he probably had him go on the other side
and do the same, and so that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
We're going to take a little break, folks, and we'll
be right back with master Artist and Elder Nathan Jackson.
We're talking about totem poles and house posts that were
carved by Khachi gist Achch which could be found at
Wrangel and Kluckwe and how those inspired him to get
into carving himself, and how those were some of the
(16:02):
masterpieces among the thing at people's throughout the past several
hundred years. And we've been woodcarving and working in materials
for a long time. And so we'll be right back.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Folks.
Speaker 6 (16:13):
Cheesh one or two or three times.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
You try any d friends.
Speaker 7 (16:33):
You run all around without joy, struggle, yes to day,
you struggle still today now, but you'll find a broader away.
Speaker 6 (16:51):
My brother, sisters, don't.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
You know what about the way too?
Speaker 6 (16:57):
Wait it back for those who call oh, believe in yourself.
Speaker 7 (17:04):
Now believe in us somehow dona declassy.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And we're back.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
So we're going to take it back a little bit
to when you were younger and as you're deciding what
to do sort of with your life, what are the
things that led you to become a professional artist.
Speaker 5 (17:35):
Well, one of the things that happened was it was
May that I was working and Jack David had already
passed away, and I was in the military, for two years.
I was told by Ted Lawrence. He says, well, you
can draw unemployment. What what's unemployment? So I ended up
(17:59):
signing up and I got a whole bunch of money
all of a sudden, and I thought, well, well, that's great.
But then one of the things that happened was in May,
I was looking forward to going fishing, and I was
working on someone's boat that was on the grid and
cleaning the outside hull of that boat and scraping it
(18:25):
and so on, and there's jellyfish powder, you know, from
the outside boat was drive and I ended up coughing
pretty bad and started coughing, cough, cough, cough, and then
and there's also bottom paint that probably irritated me from
(18:48):
the dust and so on, and I started coughing. I
ended up coughing up blood. And I took my handkerchief,
which I usually carry around in my pow okay, and
I had it wrapped around my nose because there was
a lot of dust. And the next thing is I
(19:09):
was coughing so hard that I looked down and there
was blood coming out of my mouth. And I showed
her to the doctor, doctor Jones in Haines and He
immediately got me on a plane to go to Mountinscom
Hospital and so I ended up in the hospital there
(19:33):
for about fifty four days, and I was taking meds
for the issue that I was having, and I had
to sleep a nice sunny day and I'd be looking
out stuck in my bed, just kind of off. I
was thinking I missed fishing, you know, I really wanted
(19:54):
to go fishing, but I couldn't. I was stuck there
and nurses would come around, and then through occupational therapy.
There was exact o knives there, there was small tools,
and then a little wood. It wasn't straight grain, it
just kind of curved over. Sometimes I'd have to deal
(20:17):
with that, and was left over wood from somebody left
it there. And so I carved little tortum poles. And
there was eskimos that were doing small, little tiny wristbands
with little animals on, done in ivory, like a walrus,
(20:37):
like a polar bear, like a wolf. Those guys were
really good. I just couldn't believe it. And they'd take
that short little time to do that work. And then
there was a guy name I think it was Albert Codwatt,
and this guy was doing some drawing out of his head.
(20:59):
He did this drawing. Wow, that's great, you know the
super And I thought, well, I wonder if I could
do that, But what can I copy? Well, I had
a picture of an old girlfriend and wallet size, and I.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
Blew it up. I saw, hey, I could do it.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
And then I ended up copying a picture of a
guy named Jim Togook. And Jim to Gook is the
father of Charlie Joe to Gook, who is our clan,
one of our clan members, and so I thought, well,
(21:43):
then I ended up doing painting. I wasn't happy with
the just a drawing. I thought, well, it needs a
little color. So there was some paint there and an
occupational therapy, and I squeezed out a little tube and
I added a little white to it and I mixed
(22:04):
it up. Spent a little time mixing it and then
going to my hand, looking at my hand color and
figuring that he was native in Regalia. And so I
finished that and it turned out not too bad. Then
I thought, well, then they told me after fifty four
(22:28):
days that I didn't have to be there, I didn't
have to take my meds anymore, that I didn't have tuberculosis,
and I thought, what am I going to do? And
then I was so happy. I was running down the
hallway because I was going to be picking up my
clothes that were already laundered and all folded up and everything.
(22:54):
And so while running down the hallway, i'd run across
the nurse. I said, Hey, underneath those totem poles that
I have on display case, I have a price written
down underneath it. So I ended up with this selling
those bunch of poles, and it wasn't a very big showcase,
(23:18):
but enough to be able to when I got to Juno,
I ended up buying a paint set Windsor Newton, and
that Windsor Newton. I ended up having a real fun
time in experimenting and seeing what I could be able
to do in painting. And it went from there and
(23:42):
I worked for Carl Hein Miller. I did a portrait
of this guy. I did some paintings and then I
thought they weren't too bad. They were pretty good. And
Carl said, well, we're going down to Pomone Affair. You
want to come along?
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (24:01):
Sure, all right, he says, those paintings that you're doing,
you want to bring one of them over and I says, Okay,
it all depends on whether or not the paint dry.
You know. If the paint is dry, then I can
be able to take it. If it's not dry, you know,
forget it. But anyways, the paint was dry and I
(24:22):
took it. And then we danced in Vegas and we
put on performances and.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
I thought, well, that's crazy.
Speaker 5 (24:33):
I mean, dancing there in Vegas, you know, just slap
machines all over the place. Then it was all over
with and there was a bunch of guys that were
at the instrue American Innian Arts, old buddies of mine.
And come to find my cousin was there as well,
who played piano. So we ended up going to the
(24:58):
art school. I was accepted after showing that picture that
I did, so I was an exception to that school.
I feel a little bit awkward because I just came
out of the army, you know, and so it was
different for me, kind of like kids all over the place.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yeah, because you're coming from a small village, so a
village of Haines, Alaska and Klukwan, Alaska, and then heading
down to Juno, Alaska and then going to an art
school in Santa Fe, New Mexico, even though it's for
indigenous peoples, that's a big shift. Even just from Southeast
Alaska to New Mexico is a big shift. But then
(25:43):
going from fishing and hanging out with folks who are
fishing and then some folks doing artists to being in
an art school and an art program. So what an
incredible transition. And if we think about now, you're probably
the most prolific clinket artist at least in this last century.
You have totem poles, and I've seen your polls in Hawaii,
(26:06):
you have polls in New York City and all over
the place. So when you look at a tree or
a big chunk of wood, how does that become a
totem pole.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
Well, one of the things that I thought was that
you have to develop a theme, and so when there's
a theme coming along, then that theme has to be
drawn out and to draw that in a profile, which
is fairly easy and what the figures require. And so
(26:41):
the first big commission that I got was in Juno
the wushkitn Pole, and so that was a fairly good
sized forty fourth totem pole. But I had to listen
to George Jim and all the figures that need to
go on there, and he had so many things that
(27:06):
I didn't think that I had to get rid of
some of the figures because it wouldn't work, you know.
I figured welt for drawing an inch to a foot scale,
and so once I got the okay, I bring the
drawing first to George Jim, and the city was involved
(27:29):
in that Juno project, and the guy that was in
charge gave the okay. Once it gave the okay, then
I went and took my Huscabana and Alaska mill.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
And cut the wood there.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
And it was in Juno at the Sea Alaska building,
and I thought, I'm making all this noise with loud chainsaw,
you know, but it did the job, and I was thinking, well,
I don't know if that sound is bothering any of
these secretaries that are working up upstairs. And so I
(28:09):
kind of figured that maybe the majority of the cutting
that had to be done had to be done after work,
and so I got that taken care of and then
I had to drain. Then ed Lawrence's brother Jeff David
asked if he could be able to help do this project.
(28:31):
I says no, he's a basketball player, he's a tall man,
and I says no. And then Steve Brown was there,
and I figured, well, okay, he's got his own tools,
you know. And I figured that I wouldn't have to
provide any major tools except maybe a ship adds this
(28:52):
and so on that I had. And then I also
had an electric chainsaw, and so we had to plug
that whole thing in and we use that for this project.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
And so that's how that went.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
And then afterwards Setta was on the list of things
to do. They wanted some poles reproduced, and so we
ended up doing that, and so we just kept on.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Going on these different projects. It's been an experience.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
And it's cheese if you folks have not seen Northwest
Coast Native artists and their tools. We're talking about ads is,
we're talking about crooked knives, We're talking about all kinds
of different chisels that include flat chisels and gouge chisels
and scorps and all kinds of stuff. And if you
do any woodworking, these are probably familiar terms. But if
(29:47):
they're not, there's a whole collection of tools and one
of the things that carvers end up doing is trading
for tools, making tools themselves, always on the lookout for
something it stays sharp, that cuts wood. And even though
things are shaped, when you have large projects, you shape
some of them with the chainsaw because you're removing probably
(30:10):
thousands of pounds of wood from it. All the work
gets done by hand once you get down to actually
carving out the design, so really you're just blocking stuff out.
So I few folks haven't learned about this. Just wanted
to make sure that we covered a few basics as
we talk with hbt D Nathan Jackson, and we'll continue
our conversation after this shortbreak. Gonna cheesh.
Speaker 7 (30:51):
Yuh yuh god, oh.
Speaker 6 (31:22):
Kind of dog is away?
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Doda he.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
You and we're back with ye Nathan Jackson in his
studio here in Saxman, Alaska, surrounded by all kinds of
big tall trees. Red cedar, yellow cedar, alder. Those are
(32:02):
three really important trees in this area. And if you're
a wood carver, you also know where to go look
for vine, maple and birch and other types of trees
that will do the job. If you're making tools, sometimes
you're looking for a U tree and so you end
up knowing a lot about trees and wood and what
(32:23):
it does, because when you're a wood carver, you're not
just dealing with making something out of an object that
doesn't have its own idea of what it wants to be.
Because that wood's going to have knots and that wood's
going to have grain that starts shifting directions on you.
So you really adjust as you go. But as I
think about the past probably fifty sixty years, where you've
(32:45):
built this incredible career as an artist, a lot of recognition,
a lot of awards which are so well deserved. If
someone said to you, I want to become an artist
like you, what advice do you have for them, well, I.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Would say this to me, it's quite simple, I guess see.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
Alaska Heritage had a commissioned job and one of the
things that they had was the clan system that they
have brought out.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Is you have to design the poll.
Speaker 5 (33:24):
That you're working with, and they limited the size to
twenty five feet and so you have to figure out
how this is going to be. And one of the
things that they did was they told people the figures
that need to be on the totem pole, and so
(33:46):
it was up to the carver to design it, now
if he had problems with designing. In some cases I've
come across over the years were people really liked the idea,
but when it came to designing something, it became a hurdle.
(34:09):
I mean, they couldn't jump over anything on that And
so it becomes a little bit more simpler if that
individual spend a little time drawing. And so everything starts
in black and white, and when an architect builds a house,
(34:31):
it has to be drawn out. When a car is
getting ready to be produced, it has to be in
black and white. Then it goes and transfers into something
a little bit more pre dimensional where you can see
it a little bit more clearly.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
And so I kind of.
Speaker 5 (34:53):
Feel like if anybody is really interested in doing any
type of carving, by drawing, you what you're doing is
doing a study. And if you take it that way,
what you're doing is learning how to do that. Whether
(35:16):
it's a drawing, you kind of look at it and
if you want to make your profile, which is a
simpler way of doing it, then a straightforward pose maybe,
And to me, that's one of the steps for an
early stage of doing.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
A totem pole.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
But you look at this as wood that changes, and
so the other thing is being able to make it
like an inch to a foot scale. So you end
up taking your drawing and figuring out how its shaped,
(35:59):
first of all on a profile, so you're looking at
the side view of your work, and then go ahead
and do the centralized get a straight line and making
sure to equalize both sides. And so sometimes it's really
(36:21):
hard to get that because I think every artist is
a little bit different. If you have a left handed person,
it'll handle a little bit different, but then when you're
right handed, it's just you start from the left side.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
To the right. And so that's kind of how I've
gone on the pole.
Speaker 5 (36:46):
And there's also another thing that happens is you have
to have a lead that wouldn't indelible or anything or
make any marks on.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
The totem pole.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
And so working with wet wood and understanding that you're
going to have to have a pencil that you'll be
able to see your lines and that type of thing.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
So yeah, so an oil based pencil sometimes is something
that'll hold and it won't wash off write on a
wet surface. And I think another thing that I really
admire that you've been able to do is to put
in the time. Like there's a lot of people who
sort of say, I'm going to speak the thing at language,
or I'm gonna become an artist, or I'm going to
(37:33):
become this, but it really takes a lot of devotion
when other people are maybe busy doing other stuff, to say, Okay,
I've got to do this myself. Because especially as you
were learning, there probably wasn't a school you could go to.
I mean, there are certainly carvers you could go and
learn from and other people who had been doing this
type of work, but I think it takes a lot
of individual dedication and commitment to especially if you talk
(37:56):
about here's this forty foot piece of wood, turn it
into something that we're going to put there and it's
going to sit there for one hundred years while people
look at it. That's that's a lot. So I really
appreciate all the time and energy you've put in and
everything that you've had to share. So in these last
few minutes that we have with folks, do you have
anything you want to share with folks who are listening.
(38:16):
There might be folks who don't know what a think
at person is there's folks who might not know what
a totem pole is, you know, because and it's beyond
totem poles. You look at house screens and you look
at other things that have been done that just really
think at people's We historically we put designs on everything,
on clothing, on spoons, on bowls, on walls, and so
(38:39):
as we looked at the language, we kind of had
to go find what the word was for artwork, and
it really just means a thing that is done, which
was really fitting because at naneh is what we heard
an elder say, and that we didn't even have a
word for artwork because it was expected to be on everything.
But as you've sort of spent your life developing your
ability to create things from your hands and create wonderful
(39:02):
things that includes replicas of ancient ones that were made
one hundred or so years ago, I guess in the
eighty plus years that you've been alive and seeing this
artwork develop, where do you hope Northwest Coast and think
it art is eighty years from today?
Speaker 5 (39:20):
Well, I really don't know where it's going. I mean,
you look at the stars and you see a little
blinker up there and you kind of wonder what's going
on there, you know. But I think that for artwork,
when we think about our people who we are, it
(39:46):
becomes an identification. It shows that we are people that
know actually something and so and willing to go ahead
and do it. I mean, if you work with your hands,
you know it's work. But to do something that people appreciate,
and I think that's what a lot of the elders
(40:09):
look at. Something that's a new person that is really
doing good work. They can be able to appreciate that
is good work. And so I think that over the
years there are going to be people that still carry
those traits, and those traits I think are pretty important
(40:30):
to identify who you are. And we have three tribes here.
We have the Simpsionic, Clinket, and Haida, and each one
of them a little bit different in some ways, but
for the most part, you find that when the people
like the Hida people, when they do stuff, they're pretty
(40:54):
much proud of what they do and want to do
even better than what they've done.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
So that's about it.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Cheeesh and Northwest Coast Arts is among the finest artwork
in the entire world. If you haven't seen stuff, you
should really look at thing get artwork, and look at
what Nathan Jackson has done, and look at Jenny Channatt,
and look at Clarissa Rizol and look at Wayne Price
and a wide variety of folks who have made just
(41:23):
incredible things and continue to push the arts into new directions,
as Nick Lannon and Jared Galannon and Alison Bremner and
Lily Hope are all doing today, among many many others.
And then if you go down the coast a little
bit from us, there's the Simchion and the work that
they've been doing with David Boxley and now David R. Boxley,
(41:46):
just incredible work that are coming out of these areas,
and Mike Dangelee and Jack Hudson and now John Hudson.
And then if you go farther down into Haida communities,
look at the works of Delora Churchhill and Robert Davidson
and Reggie Davidson and Jim Hart and like TJ. Young,
and look at other artists who are doing just incredible work.
(42:09):
And then there's a whole conversation that we'll have in
future episodes about the female arts and now today about
what those arts are and they're not so much gendered,
but historically they kind of were in some ways. But
Nathan Jackson has been a huge part of bringing artwork
to so many different areas. You could walk the streets
of Seattle and you'll see a manhole cover with a
(42:31):
flanget design on it, and you could find the stamp
with a flingett. Raven's very handsome dancing behind him mask
and that's Nathan Jackson. So it's been an honor to
have you on the show, Little Cheese, for all that
you've done and all that you continue to do. It's
great to see you in your studio.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
Girl Cheese. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
The Tongue Unbroken is a production of the iHeartMedia Next
Up Initiative at Claim Gonchiese Claim on a host Nee.
We just want to give a lot of love and
support to Anna Hosnia at this time. We love you,
we support you, we stand by you, we stand with you.
If you are speaking out and speak in your mind,
people shouldn't be attacking you. The Tongue Unbroken is produced
(43:13):
by Joel Monique and Mia Taylor, and the Next Up
Initiative would not be possible without Anna HOSTI so we
hold you up, we elevate you, surround you with love.
We'll be back next week.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Folks.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Keep being Indigenous, keep supporting Indigenous efforts, keep speaking, keep talking,
keep doing art.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeahweh alchish
This episode contains a term that has historically been used
to describe northern Native peoples of Alaska and Canada. While
this is common among Alaska Native elders and commonly used
internally among particular groups, public use of this term is discouraged.
The preferred term for Northern Alaska Natives are Yupik or Nubiach.
(00:21):
And on the Tongue unbroken, we celebrate sovereignty, self determination
and being called what you'd like to be called Gonchisch, Kroyan.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Doctah.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
They try to colonizs, try to genocide, yet we're still
here with the tongue on broke, and welcome to the
tongue unbroken, folks, We are coming to you on the road.
In the work studio of Ye Shieddi Nathan Jackson, who
(01:06):
is a revered elder among the Shinge and is a
master carver who has works all around the world, totem poles, screens, houses,
dance frontlets, that so many wonderful things, and Nathan is
an incredible force in the movement to bring Shinget artwork
(01:29):
back to a place of prominence. There was a time
when there weren't very many people carving there weren't very
many people who understood the rules of design, and Nathan
Jackson is one of the people who really helped bring
that back in our region. There's other people in other areas,
among the Haida, the Simschian, further down the coast. There
(01:50):
are scholars like Bill Holme, and there are scholars like
Steve Brown. They're not just scholars, they're also incredible artists themselves.
But Nathan is also my uncle, so I'm very happy
to get to work with him and spend time with him. So, Nathan,
can you tell the people who you are and how
you got to be where you're at right now.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
One of the things that happened was as a child
growing up, I always kind of took interest in artwork.
Even as a boy, I drew, but I didn't know
what I was doing half of the time because drawing
was something that somebody else did that you had to
(02:34):
copy or try to excel in what you do, and
so that's kind of one of the things that happened.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
I was raised in Hanes.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
For a while when I was with my great uncle
Jack David and we set netted for a bit and
then I was introduced to his step son, which is
Ted Lawrence. Ted Lawrence was carving during the wintertime. You
(03:07):
end up either play cards or kill time doing that
when the weather was pretty bad. And so that's kind
of where he was at in Haines and you listen
to the whistling wind that came from Skagway. And so
(03:27):
I thought, well, I never really got into playing cards
and doing that type of thing, much rather do something
else with my hands. And Ted saw, I think he
saw that. So he challenged me to carve a little
tiny totem pole. I thought, well, okay, I can do that,
(03:48):
there's no problem. Well he says, well, how about doing
a little tiny one. I'll carve one and with my
pocket knife, and he had a piece of cedar, and
so I ended up copying it, tried to copy it
as close as I possibly can, and I ended up
(04:09):
doing a couple of them, And that was the first experience.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
And with his tools, not mine.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
With his tools he had pocket knives sharpen really good.
And so I thought, well, this is all right, but
how can anybody make money off of these little tiny things? So,
as it turns out, I ended up doing a few,
but more as a young fellow. He had buddies that
(04:41):
wanted to go out and do different things, and some
I thought were kind of foolish things, but then also
even dancing Indian and they prepared for Fourth July and
they did some dancing singing songs, and they and those songs.
(05:04):
Jack was the leader in that, and his thlinket name
was the Quest, which is Seal Killer. And the whole
family kind of got together. Louise Williams, Jack David's wife,
Elizabeth David, and even Jack's sister came in and started singing.
(05:30):
And so a whole bunch of people started gathering together
as they sang, and Burt Dennis and Missus Burke Dennis
and they started singing, singing, dancing, and I thought, oh man,
I'm stuck here, like to be with my buddies. And
I didn't realize that they were practicing for Fourth of
(05:53):
July parade, and so I got involved with that whole business. Well, okay,
I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to
try to keep the beat and watch what everybody else
is doing. And then they got a truck, a big
(06:13):
flat bed a flat and so it started dancing on
the truck. I started dancing and I was having a
good time. I noticed my buddies that were out there
watching in the parade. They were just kind of standing around,
(06:34):
not doing anything at all, and I was having a
real great time. I even got in front and started
dancing on.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
The hood of the vehicle, the truck.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
And so then over the years I ended up dancing
with the two Cat dancers.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Now I had to.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Remember movements that a lot of the old timers did
to be able to continue doing dancing, and knowing what
movements they made with their head, what movements they made
with their blanket, what movements they did with their feet,
(07:17):
and so with all that, I became pretty good in dancing.
And so I thought, well, okay, and it's just a
momentary thing. It wasn't something that was prolonged for me.
But I ended up dancing with the Chilcat Dancers. And
so one of the things like, for instance, listening to
(07:39):
Dan Katzi saying the song and there are songs that
you sing that are interior type songs. And there was
a little bit more flashier dance movements that were done.
And there were certain people that really were pretty good.
People from the Terrier, for instance, they were just wow.
(08:04):
They really super dancers, and so I started watching closely
in movements that were made, and I really enjoyed doing
that type of thing. And my mom she enjoyed doing
little raven dances, so I kind of watched her and
(08:26):
I did a raven mask for myself at one point,
and then I start doing the raven dance, and so
that was one of the key things that I did,
especially when we traveled around with the native families. And
also I did the dance in the museum with Rosita
(08:47):
was kind of heading this whole dance troupe up with
a gathering that we should kind of end up being
involved in this dance. So I just felt the read
them in doing these dances like celebration when that comes about,
I kind of think everybody liked to do these dances,
(09:10):
otherwise they wouldn't, and so it was kind of a
hallmark for us as Native people enjoying dancing. And so
I kind of felt like anytime that I was asked
to help, I do my very best. But anymore realizing
that as time goes by, you get old and you
(09:31):
can't do what you used to do, but you go
ahead and be part of the singing group. Then My
thing was learning new songs, and some of it was
pretty hard, some of it was easy. Some of the repeats,
like for instance, the Athabaskan songs were quite quite simple
(09:54):
and repeated songs. And I enjoy doing that, but Carl,
I mean, it is a different thing. And so I
had to make a livelihood out of that because of
getting tools, learning who makes the best tools.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
And a lot of it.
Speaker 5 (10:13):
When I think back on it, there are certain people
that were really good at making tools, and I figured, hey,
I can buy tools and then I can have my
own tools. And so I just tried to get the best.
And so that was one of those things being an artist,
being a carver, just keep going. And my team was
(10:37):
can you do it? Yeah, you can do it. You
can do it.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Yeah, just just a challenge.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
And so I take up these little ideas and then
you know, make them, whether they were mask balls, anything.
And there was a fellow who worked in the Alaska
State Museum named Peter Corey, and Peter Corey was a
curator at the museum, and he kept on challenging me
(11:09):
to make small bowls. And he'd bring in a piece
of wood older and so I'd have to make a
little tiny bowl, and so after the bowl, other things
started coming in, and then the jewelry that was another thing.
A lot of these guys were pretty good anyway. There
(11:32):
was Tommy Jimmy Senor, there was Leo Jacobs, there was
Wes Willard, there was Lincoln Wallace and Amos Wallace. Those
guys were really good at what they did. And I
think I challenged myself to do much better in every
(11:52):
area of that. And so it became small designs, not big,
small designs on brace and those type of things, and
I didn't do too bad. I did small rings and
so on, and they thought, well, I.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Can do it.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
There's a lot of different challenges that come with doing
smaller stuff than the bigger and what kind of design
do you want? Well, there's some that are weird selections
of like even right now, there's somebody who wants a
butterfly design, wants a hummingbird design. Those type of things
(12:33):
are just kind of like drive me crazy.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, those are not as common, and so Thlinget, the
artwork that is done a lot among the Thinget people's
represents a particular crest, which is the image of an
animal or some sort of supernatural being that's used usually
by a clan. So there's this list of things that
folks can draw from. And so as you got into
(12:56):
dancing and you started to get into artwork, and how
did you go from some of these smaller pieces, Like
you're talking about making a bracelet is a pretty small area.
You're going to engrave it onto a piece of silver
or copper or gold. And then you're looking at the
bulls which you're going to carve out of wood, and
they're going to be three dimensional and usually have some
(13:17):
sort of animal form often on it. But as you
were sort of growing up, did you see a lot
of totem poles around and were people making very many
totem poles?
Speaker 5 (13:27):
Well, first of all, I didn't see people doing it
totem poles and that type of thing. But the opportunity
of being able to go to places in Klakwan to
see some of the best works I've ever seen, you know,
in northwest coast just looking at it. I didn't have
(13:50):
a camera. I didn't have that much money to buy
a camera, but a lot of that I had to
kind of stick in my mind and try to retain
it all the time. But there was pictures of a
lot of things that were done in books. So my
(14:12):
change of step was looking at books that contained good artwork.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
And so it's not the same.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
It's not the same as looking directly at an art piece.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
But I had the.
Speaker 5 (14:28):
Opportunity of being able to see these nice pieces up
in Klakwan. Then in Wrangell that same artist his name
was Cargas Storch, and he did some absolutely wonderful works.
I would say that it was pretty hard to copy.
(14:49):
And the type of material that he used in Klakwan
was spruce, and that wood is hard wood comparatively to
red cedar, and so that fellow must have had several
carvers work with him. And it was more recently that
(15:11):
I said to Steve Brown, I says, hey, I have
this guy who is left handed and he does really well,
and he thinks that maybe Kagistrosch had a left handed
fellow working with him, you know, And so that makes
sense to me because that way, if he did one side,
(15:36):
but he probably had him go on the other side
and do the same, and so that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
We're going to take a little break, folks, and we'll
be right back with master Artist and Elder Nathan Jackson.
We're talking about totem poles and house posts that were
carved by Khachi gist Achch which could be found at
Wrangel and Kluckwe and how those inspired him to get
into carving himself, and how those were some of the
(16:02):
masterpieces among the thing at people's throughout the past several
hundred years. And we've been woodcarving and working in materials
for a long time. And so we'll be right back.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
Folks.
Speaker 6 (16:13):
Cheesh one or two or three times.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
You try any d friends.
Speaker 7 (16:33):
You run all around without joy, struggle, yes to day,
you struggle still today now, but you'll find a broader away.
Speaker 6 (16:51):
My brother, sisters, don't.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
You know what about the way too?
Speaker 6 (16:57):
Wait it back for those who call oh, believe in yourself.
Speaker 7 (17:04):
Now believe in us somehow dona declassy.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And we're back.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
So we're going to take it back a little bit
to when you were younger and as you're deciding what
to do sort of with your life, what are the
things that led you to become a professional artist.
Speaker 5 (17:35):
Well, one of the things that happened was it was
May that I was working and Jack David had already
passed away, and I was in the military, for two years.
I was told by Ted Lawrence. He says, well, you
can draw unemployment. What what's unemployment? So I ended up
(17:59):
signing up and I got a whole bunch of money
all of a sudden, and I thought, well, well, that's great.
But then one of the things that happened was in May,
I was looking forward to going fishing, and I was
working on someone's boat that was on the grid and
cleaning the outside hull of that boat and scraping it
(18:25):
and so on, and there's jellyfish powder, you know, from
the outside boat was drive and I ended up coughing
pretty bad and started coughing, cough, cough, cough, and then
and there's also bottom paint that probably irritated me from
(18:48):
the dust and so on, and I started coughing. I
ended up coughing up blood. And I took my handkerchief,
which I usually carry around in my pow okay, and
I had it wrapped around my nose because there was
a lot of dust. And the next thing is I
(19:09):
was coughing so hard that I looked down and there
was blood coming out of my mouth. And I showed
her to the doctor, doctor Jones in Haines and He
immediately got me on a plane to go to Mountinscom
Hospital and so I ended up in the hospital there
(19:33):
for about fifty four days, and I was taking meds
for the issue that I was having, and I had
to sleep a nice sunny day and I'd be looking
out stuck in my bed, just kind of off. I
was thinking I missed fishing, you know, I really wanted
(19:54):
to go fishing, but I couldn't. I was stuck there
and nurses would come around, and then through occupational therapy.
There was exact o knives there, there was small tools,
and then a little wood. It wasn't straight grain, it
just kind of curved over. Sometimes I'd have to deal
(20:17):
with that, and was left over wood from somebody left
it there. And so I carved little tortum poles. And
there was eskimos that were doing small, little tiny wristbands
with little animals on, done in ivory, like a walrus,
(20:37):
like a polar bear, like a wolf. Those guys were
really good. I just couldn't believe it. And they'd take
that short little time to do that work. And then
there was a guy name I think it was Albert Codwatt,
and this guy was doing some drawing out of his head.
(20:59):
He did this drawing. Wow, that's great, you know the
super And I thought, well, I wonder if I could
do that, But what can I copy? Well, I had
a picture of an old girlfriend and wallet size, and I.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
Blew it up. I saw, hey, I could do it.
Speaker 5 (21:23):
And then I ended up copying a picture of a
guy named Jim Togook. And Jim to Gook is the
father of Charlie Joe to Gook, who is our clan,
one of our clan members, and so I thought, well,
(21:43):
then I ended up doing painting. I wasn't happy with
the just a drawing. I thought, well, it needs a
little color. So there was some paint there and an
occupational therapy, and I squeezed out a little tube and
I added a little white to it and I mixed
(22:04):
it up. Spent a little time mixing it and then
going to my hand, looking at my hand color and
figuring that he was native in Regalia. And so I
finished that and it turned out not too bad. Then
I thought, well, then they told me after fifty four
(22:28):
days that I didn't have to be there, I didn't
have to take my meds anymore, that I didn't have tuberculosis,
and I thought, what am I going to do? And
then I was so happy. I was running down the
hallway because I was going to be picking up my
clothes that were already laundered and all folded up and everything.
(22:54):
And so while running down the hallway, i'd run across
the nurse. I said, Hey, underneath those totem poles that
I have on display case, I have a price written
down underneath it. So I ended up with this selling
those bunch of poles, and it wasn't a very big showcase,
(23:18):
but enough to be able to when I got to Juno,
I ended up buying a paint set Windsor Newton, and
that Windsor Newton. I ended up having a real fun
time in experimenting and seeing what I could be able
to do in painting. And it went from there and
(23:42):
I worked for Carl Hein Miller. I did a portrait
of this guy. I did some paintings and then I
thought they weren't too bad. They were pretty good. And
Carl said, well, we're going down to Pomone Affair. You
want to come along?
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (24:01):
Sure, all right, he says, those paintings that you're doing,
you want to bring one of them over and I says, Okay,
it all depends on whether or not the paint dry.
You know. If the paint is dry, then I can
be able to take it. If it's not dry, you know,
forget it. But anyways, the paint was dry and I
(24:22):
took it. And then we danced in Vegas and we
put on performances and.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
I thought, well, that's crazy.
Speaker 5 (24:33):
I mean, dancing there in Vegas, you know, just slap
machines all over the place. Then it was all over
with and there was a bunch of guys that were
at the instrue American Innian Arts, old buddies of mine.
And come to find my cousin was there as well,
who played piano. So we ended up going to the
(24:58):
art school. I was accepted after showing that picture that
I did, so I was an exception to that school.
I feel a little bit awkward because I just came
out of the army, you know, and so it was
different for me, kind of like kids all over the place.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yeah, because you're coming from a small village, so a
village of Haines, Alaska and Klukwan, Alaska, and then heading
down to Juno, Alaska and then going to an art
school in Santa Fe, New Mexico, even though it's for
indigenous peoples, that's a big shift. Even just from Southeast
Alaska to New Mexico is a big shift. But then
(25:43):
going from fishing and hanging out with folks who are
fishing and then some folks doing artists to being in
an art school and an art program. So what an
incredible transition. And if we think about now, you're probably
the most prolific clinket artist at least in this last century.
You have totem poles, and I've seen your polls in Hawaii,
(26:06):
you have polls in New York City and all over
the place. So when you look at a tree or
a big chunk of wood, how does that become a
totem pole.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
Well, one of the things that I thought was that
you have to develop a theme, and so when there's
a theme coming along, then that theme has to be
drawn out and to draw that in a profile, which
is fairly easy and what the figures require. And so
(26:41):
the first big commission that I got was in Juno
the wushkitn Pole, and so that was a fairly good
sized forty fourth totem pole. But I had to listen
to George Jim and all the figures that need to
go on there, and he had so many things that
(27:06):
I didn't think that I had to get rid of
some of the figures because it wouldn't work, you know.
I figured welt for drawing an inch to a foot scale,
and so once I got the okay, I bring the
drawing first to George Jim, and the city was involved
(27:29):
in that Juno project, and the guy that was in
charge gave the okay. Once it gave the okay, then
I went and took my Huscabana and Alaska mill.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
And cut the wood there.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
And it was in Juno at the Sea Alaska building,
and I thought, I'm making all this noise with loud chainsaw,
you know, but it did the job, and I was thinking, well,
I don't know if that sound is bothering any of
these secretaries that are working up upstairs. And so I
(28:09):
kind of figured that maybe the majority of the cutting
that had to be done had to be done after work,
and so I got that taken care of and then
I had to drain. Then ed Lawrence's brother Jeff David
asked if he could be able to help do this project.
(28:31):
I says no, he's a basketball player, he's a tall man,
and I says no. And then Steve Brown was there,
and I figured, well, okay, he's got his own tools,
you know. And I figured that I wouldn't have to
provide any major tools except maybe a ship adds this
(28:52):
and so on that I had. And then I also
had an electric chainsaw, and so we had to plug
that whole thing in and we use that for this project.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
And so that's how that went.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
And then afterwards Setta was on the list of things
to do. They wanted some poles reproduced, and so we
ended up doing that, and so we just kept on.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Going on these different projects. It's been an experience.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
And it's cheese if you folks have not seen Northwest
Coast Native artists and their tools. We're talking about ads is,
we're talking about crooked knives, We're talking about all kinds
of different chisels that include flat chisels and gouge chisels
and scorps and all kinds of stuff. And if you
do any woodworking, these are probably familiar terms. But if
(29:47):
they're not, there's a whole collection of tools and one
of the things that carvers end up doing is trading
for tools, making tools themselves, always on the lookout for
something it stays sharp, that cuts wood. And even though
things are shaped, when you have large projects, you shape
some of them with the chainsaw because you're removing probably
(30:10):
thousands of pounds of wood from it. All the work
gets done by hand once you get down to actually
carving out the design, so really you're just blocking stuff out.
So I few folks haven't learned about this. Just wanted
to make sure that we covered a few basics as
we talk with hbt D Nathan Jackson, and we'll continue
our conversation after this shortbreak. Gonna cheesh.
Speaker 7 (30:51):
Yuh yuh god, oh.
Speaker 6 (31:22):
Kind of dog is away?
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Doda he.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
You and we're back with ye Nathan Jackson in his
studio here in Saxman, Alaska, surrounded by all kinds of
big tall trees. Red cedar, yellow cedar, alder. Those are
(32:02):
three really important trees in this area. And if you're
a wood carver, you also know where to go look
for vine, maple and birch and other types of trees
that will do the job. If you're making tools, sometimes
you're looking for a U tree and so you end
up knowing a lot about trees and wood and what
(32:23):
it does, because when you're a wood carver, you're not
just dealing with making something out of an object that
doesn't have its own idea of what it wants to be.
Because that wood's going to have knots and that wood's
going to have grain that starts shifting directions on you.
So you really adjust as you go. But as I
think about the past probably fifty sixty years, where you've
(32:45):
built this incredible career as an artist, a lot of recognition,
a lot of awards which are so well deserved. If
someone said to you, I want to become an artist
like you, what advice do you have for them, well, I.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Would say this to me, it's quite simple, I guess see.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
Alaska Heritage had a commissioned job and one of the
things that they had was the clan system that they
have brought out.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Is you have to design the poll.
Speaker 5 (33:24):
That you're working with, and they limited the size to
twenty five feet and so you have to figure out
how this is going to be. And one of the
things that they did was they told people the figures
that need to be on the totem pole, and so
(33:46):
it was up to the carver to design it, now
if he had problems with designing. In some cases I've
come across over the years were people really liked the idea,
but when it came to designing something, it became a hurdle.
(34:09):
I mean, they couldn't jump over anything on that And
so it becomes a little bit more simpler if that
individual spend a little time drawing. And so everything starts
in black and white, and when an architect builds a house,
(34:31):
it has to be drawn out. When a car is
getting ready to be produced, it has to be in
black and white. Then it goes and transfers into something
a little bit more pre dimensional where you can see
it a little bit more clearly.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
And so I kind of.
Speaker 5 (34:53):
Feel like if anybody is really interested in doing any
type of carving, by drawing, you what you're doing is
doing a study. And if you take it that way,
what you're doing is learning how to do that. Whether
(35:16):
it's a drawing, you kind of look at it and
if you want to make your profile, which is a
simpler way of doing it, then a straightforward pose maybe,
And to me, that's one of the steps for an
early stage of doing.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
A totem pole.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
But you look at this as wood that changes, and
so the other thing is being able to make it
like an inch to a foot scale. So you end
up taking your drawing and figuring out how its shaped,
(35:59):
first of all on a profile, so you're looking at
the side view of your work, and then go ahead
and do the centralized get a straight line and making
sure to equalize both sides. And so sometimes it's really
(36:21):
hard to get that because I think every artist is
a little bit different. If you have a left handed person,
it'll handle a little bit different, but then when you're
right handed, it's just you start from the left side.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
To the right. And so that's kind of how I've
gone on the pole.
Speaker 5 (36:46):
And there's also another thing that happens is you have
to have a lead that wouldn't indelible or anything or
make any marks on.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
The totem pole.
Speaker 5 (36:59):
And so working with wet wood and understanding that you're
going to have to have a pencil that you'll be
able to see your lines and that type of thing.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
So yeah, so an oil based pencil sometimes is something
that'll hold and it won't wash off write on a
wet surface. And I think another thing that I really
admire that you've been able to do is to put
in the time. Like there's a lot of people who
sort of say, I'm going to speak the thing at language,
or I'm gonna become an artist, or I'm going to
(37:33):
become this, but it really takes a lot of devotion
when other people are maybe busy doing other stuff, to say, Okay,
I've got to do this myself. Because especially as you
were learning, there probably wasn't a school you could go to.
I mean, there are certainly carvers you could go and
learn from and other people who had been doing this
type of work, but I think it takes a lot
of individual dedication and commitment to especially if you talk
(37:56):
about here's this forty foot piece of wood, turn it
into something that we're going to put there and it's
going to sit there for one hundred years while people
look at it. That's that's a lot. So I really
appreciate all the time and energy you've put in and
everything that you've had to share. So in these last
few minutes that we have with folks, do you have
anything you want to share with folks who are listening.
(38:16):
There might be folks who don't know what a think
at person is there's folks who might not know what
a totem pole is, you know, because and it's beyond
totem poles. You look at house screens and you look
at other things that have been done that just really
think at people's We historically we put designs on everything,
on clothing, on spoons, on bowls, on walls, and so
(38:39):
as we looked at the language, we kind of had
to go find what the word was for artwork, and
it really just means a thing that is done, which
was really fitting because at naneh is what we heard
an elder say, and that we didn't even have a
word for artwork because it was expected to be on everything.
But as you've sort of spent your life developing your
ability to create things from your hands and create wonderful
(39:02):
things that includes replicas of ancient ones that were made
one hundred or so years ago, I guess in the
eighty plus years that you've been alive and seeing this
artwork develop, where do you hope Northwest Coast and think
it art is eighty years from today?
Speaker 5 (39:20):
Well, I really don't know where it's going. I mean,
you look at the stars and you see a little
blinker up there and you kind of wonder what's going
on there, you know. But I think that for artwork,
when we think about our people who we are, it
(39:46):
becomes an identification. It shows that we are people that
know actually something and so and willing to go ahead
and do it. I mean, if you work with your hands,
you know it's work. But to do something that people appreciate,
and I think that's what a lot of the elders
(40:09):
look at. Something that's a new person that is really
doing good work. They can be able to appreciate that
is good work. And so I think that over the
years there are going to be people that still carry
those traits, and those traits I think are pretty important
(40:30):
to identify who you are. And we have three tribes here.
We have the Simpsionic, Clinket, and Haida, and each one
of them a little bit different in some ways, but
for the most part, you find that when the people
like the Hida people, when they do stuff, they're pretty
(40:54):
much proud of what they do and want to do
even better than what they've done.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
So that's about it.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Cheeesh and Northwest Coast Arts is among the finest artwork
in the entire world. If you haven't seen stuff, you
should really look at thing get artwork, and look at
what Nathan Jackson has done, and look at Jenny Channatt,
and look at Clarissa Rizol and look at Wayne Price
and a wide variety of folks who have made just
(41:23):
incredible things and continue to push the arts into new directions,
as Nick Lannon and Jared Galannon and Alison Bremner and
Lily Hope are all doing today, among many many others.
And then if you go down the coast a little
bit from us, there's the Simchion and the work that
they've been doing with David Boxley and now David R. Boxley,
(41:46):
just incredible work that are coming out of these areas,
and Mike Dangelee and Jack Hudson and now John Hudson.
And then if you go farther down into Haida communities,
look at the works of Delora Churchhill and Robert Davidson
and Reggie Davidson and Jim Hart and like TJ. Young,
and look at other artists who are doing just incredible work.
(42:09):
And then there's a whole conversation that we'll have in
future episodes about the female arts and now today about
what those arts are and they're not so much gendered,
but historically they kind of were in some ways. But
Nathan Jackson has been a huge part of bringing artwork
to so many different areas. You could walk the streets
of Seattle and you'll see a manhole cover with a
(42:31):
flanget design on it, and you could find the stamp
with a flingett. Raven's very handsome dancing behind him mask
and that's Nathan Jackson. So it's been an honor to
have you on the show, Little Cheese, for all that
you've done and all that you continue to do. It's
great to see you in your studio.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
Girl Cheese. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
The Tongue Unbroken is a production of the iHeartMedia Next
Up Initiative at Claim Gonchiese Claim on a host Nee.
We just want to give a lot of love and
support to Anna Hosnia at this time. We love you,
we support you, we stand by you, we stand with you.
If you are speaking out and speak in your mind,
people shouldn't be attacking you. The Tongue Unbroken is produced
(43:13):
by Joel Monique and Mia Taylor, and the Next Up
Initiative would not be possible without Anna HOSTI so we
hold you up, we elevate you, surround you with love.
We'll be back next week.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Folks.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Keep being Indigenous, keep supporting Indigenous efforts, keep speaking, keep talking,
keep doing art.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Yeahweh alchish
Host
X̱ʼunei Lance Twitchell
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