July 2, 2025 • 30 mins
Aubrey O’Day was one of the first to speak out against Sean “Diddy” Combs — and she won’t be the last.
In this raw and deeply personal episode, Aubrey sits down with CNN’s Elizabeth Wagmeister, the journalist who helped bring the Cassie surveillance footage to light. Together, they unpack the verdict, the legal system’s limitations, and what this moment means for survivors whose stories weren’t enough to sway a jury.
Diddy may have been acquitted on three counts — but with a long trail of allegations and lawsuits still unfolding, the fight for truth and accountability is far from over.
There’s no victory dance here. Just the weight of a system that continues to fail the people it’s supposed to protect.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Amy and TJ presents Aubrey Oday covering the did He trial.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Let's talk. So you were at court today, you actually
I was watching you on the television. I was so
proud of you. You look so beautiful this morning, and I
was in the most chipper of moods because where we've
left it off this morning with every journalist and news
site reporting on the case, was the prosecution should feel
(00:26):
pretty good right now, the defense should feel nervous. That's
that was the overall understanding of the moment. They were
they we were in given that it seems like they
had made rulings, and if they were conflicted about Rico,
the rulings of anything underneath, it means that there are
people thought Rico was there, then they had to have
thought the other things were there we thought, or most
(00:48):
of the media world sought, and then as it all
came in, it just got slipped on its ass so fast.
I was watching.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I was watching, Uh, I don't.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Know who your in air person is. I was looking
at well Flitter and he was so quiet. I've never
seen Wolfe so quiet, and I've seen him call elections
that I don't know what his political beliefs are. But
I didn't. I don't know that he loved the call
he had to make, but he stood in that moment
and made it. When Wolf was silent, I was My
guts were on the floor.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yes, I mean, look, I have to say I was stunned.
I was not shocked. And here's the reason why. And
we spoke about this about weeks ago on this podcast.
Aubrey is, there were a lot of moments in this
trial that made you realize that Gift is not a
lock at all. We have been saying that. I know
(01:37):
you've been saying that since day one. I've been reporting
that since day one. There was a lot of gray area.
There was testimony that came in that either fell flat
or actually hurt the prosecution. So look, did many people
anticipate a different verdicts. Yes, But there were moments in
(01:57):
the trial where as I was discussing with my team
and with our legal analyst, I remember saying, you know,
I don't see a path to a full acquittal, just
based on the evidence and based on sitting there in court.
And the reason why was because of those two transportations
to engage in prostitution charges. I believed that when they
showed documentation, concrete, tangible evidence that there was really no
(02:20):
way out of those two charges.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Elizabeth, I didn't see a way out of Cassie's sex trafficking.
I feel like it was all the way there, and
her situation was so different than the other victim, Jane Doe,
you and I discussed you looked at two different people.
They were drastically different. The Cassie one because I was
there when she came in the very first day she
(02:43):
came in to ask plef to be on the label,
to knowing her in her prior relationship with Ryan, to
you having been witnessing everything in court, her sex trafficking
charge was there.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yes, And you know what, I I believe that if
this case were just centered around Cassie, and you remember
the first indictment was just Cassie, she was victim one,
and in that indictment victim one with Cassie, I believe
that had she been the only horror witness and Mia,
(03:20):
I think give me a testified that I think had
this been centered just around Cassie, I think that there
could have been a different outcome here. You know, we
spoke about this and you just mentioned it that Jane
and Cassie are very different women, both with horristic alleges,
so different that the cultural weight of this decision is immeasurable.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Right now, it is literally heartbreaking to witness to witness
to know how many civil suits eighty five I think
now eighty plus lawsuits right now. I think at least
three or four just filed in the last week. There
are all of that. Aside from what's going on in court.
There are so many people that have had their lives
impacted by day experiences with Sean Combs, only for all
(04:02):
of those stories to fall short in the eyes of
the jury. I mean, I can only hope that these
jurors never have to watch somebody they love endure everything
that we have heard everyone describe. I feel like Cassie
is somewhere feeling taking the weight of this in. I mean,
we've been dissecting all of these people's credibility versus understanding
(04:26):
their courage. It's in us to dissect versus to see
and believe what's in front of us. And let's be clear,
like the courtroom operates by the law, it does not
mean it delivers justice. Every time we have a lot
of courts deciding a lot of things right now that
are going to be put a lot of people in
(04:49):
danger that are not best for us overall. It's the law,
it does not mean it is justice, and it's not
the best place to develop a moral compass the world
needs right now urgently. So to me, what I worry is,
we just told the world that everything we even listened
(05:09):
to Cassie it had experience. I mean, she couldn't leave
her home without checking in. There were mandatory check ins, routines,
stop buies, even when she got a little bit of
her life back. At any point, did he could come
in and turn her life upside down, the control that
he had over her life for so long, knowing who
she was when she came in there, knowing what she
(05:30):
became all these years later. Like to me, I would
never in my life want the law to consider that
of no guilt. What kind of presidents are we starting
for this industry and for rich, powerful, wealthy men and
beyond that, Elizabeth, I have seen reporting that when the
(05:52):
kids came out and got in the van, that they
opened the van door, which, by the way, I don't
know if you know this, but Kanye released an album
which did he on it and with his son's team YEP.
They released a full album this past week. He played
his hit song opened Up the Van Door, ended a
full blown performance, took his shirt off while his girlfriend
was twerking in the back. Did you get to see
(06:14):
any of that?
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I saw the commotion around it from where I was standing, because,
as you know, I was literally live on our air
most of the day, so I couldn't be right near there.
But I did see video footage of it. What case
have you been in?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Where people stand up and start clapping to your dream team,
dream team, to a defense that did have put on
no defense, and to a closing statement that basically flat
shamed and told the entire world this was a great man.
He provided an incredible working environment. All these girls were
housed and they were lined up to do the freak
offs and this is what women will do. And he
(06:50):
gave everybody the lab of luxury and every now and
then he got me in on drugs Like that is
what the jury believed enough to give a non guilty
verdict on more of the important charges. So what are
they telling us? What do artists have to do now?
What do women have to do now?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Well, like you said, Aubrey in a court of law.
They are following the law. The scope is very limited.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
I saw sex trafficking in the law. I have read
every transcript, as I say, of this, most people have not.
You've been in court. I have read every transcript because
I am reporting on this. I am not just watching
the news Occasionally. I saw a walking path to sex
trafficking with Cassie. That was very believable. She did not
soil herself. She did not come off as a liar
(07:41):
or like I had any doubt in her story unless
Jane Doe just trickled over onto her walking path. Her
experience deserved inaccurate calling of the law.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Look, as you were saying that justice is not always
served here. It is a high burden to meet these charges.
And a defense attorney's job is not to prove the truth.
The defense attorney's job is to defend their client, who
oftentimes in this case certainly is paying them a lot
(08:15):
of money.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I know, and they were paid a lot of money
to give a narrative that's dishonest and frankly dangerous to
many people. The Bonnie and Clyde, they were equals. They
were in a messy love relationship. What is every woman
out there in a quote messy love relationship thinking about
in regards to her options to ever feel safe again
(08:39):
in life tonight?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Now, I want to tell you because you reference a
few moments here from Ditty's defense of closing argument where
they spoke about Cassie and that Bonnie and Clyde narratives. So, Aubrey, today,
I sat down with Cassie's attorney. I'm the only journalist
who has sat down with him for his first interview you,
and I asked, how is Cassie doing because she is
(09:04):
not expected to speak out. She is at home with
her family, She's a new mom, she has three kids.
Her attorney, Doug Wigdoor, told me that she wants to
move on. But he told me he don't worry about Cassie.
He said she's actually really doing okay. He said that
when he spoke to her right after the verdict, that
she was comforted and filled with gratitude, nrowing that if
(09:25):
she had not come forward, that Sean Holmes would have
never stepped foot into a courtroom and would have never
been convicted. Because look, it is devastating to people like
you that he was acquitted on the more serious charges,
that this is a man who is whole life, well
not his whole life, but you know he's self made.
But the past three decades has been about wealth, power, access,
(09:49):
calling the shocks, control, coagent interviews.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I'll throw those three in myself.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
And now he is a convicted feld. Yes, he's not
facing life in prison. No, he's not going to serve
a long, long, long sentence.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Well, let me tell you something.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
I think the judge I was shot.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
I usually a judge would let this person without getting
the guilty count on the more serious charges if they're
not a flight risk, and go home. And he didn't.
He did not let him go home.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
That's very telling.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And Diddy's known to have his big Fourth of July party.
This one would have been one for the books because
I highly doubt that he's reformed any parts of his
bad behavior in the short time that he's had to
think about his behavior, because he certainly didn't take any
accountability or acknowledgement. And he's got his whole family drink
in that juice. They did a full blown concert outside
of the fucking federal court building.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
And look, look, I mean, I think what you're getting
at here is the fact that this judge denied in
bail room. Remember this is the same judge who determines
his sentencing. So is that an indicator that when he
goes in for sentencing, that judge may not be fight
on the sentencing. Now, of course, the judge has to
(11:14):
follow the law. He has to look at precedent. Did
he is a first time offender in the legal sense
that he has never been convicted before, but he is
facing ten years on each of these charges. That is
twenty years if served consecutive.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
And by the way, let's let's also note that the
prosecution originally asked gave him a plea at the beginning
of his trial for fifteen judge, the judge could come
back all the way to twenty. Maybe if he doesn't
go to twenty, he could even go to eighteen. Eighteen
years is a significant period of time to serve. And
(11:48):
unless this is this his plan from the gods above
and Trump pardons him. If we're not going in that direction,
which is a whole we're going to start having a
whole kind of different other conversation if we go on
that dress. Let's not go into the land of impossibility
right now and stay in reality, The reality is he
(12:08):
did not let him go today. He thinks that he
is still a threat. The point that they were making
to take him out of jail were the very points
that were keeping him in there and making sure he
didn't get bonded out in the first round. They kept
him in that chill. They are keeping him in that jail,
which means they think he's a flight risk, because he'd
be sitting at home if they didn't feel he was.
(12:29):
He's proven that he's won.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Because judge the judge is very fair.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
He's been very fair to both sides. And he made the.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Call on that well he did.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
And also he is going to be making the call
on the sentencing time. And I don't think he's impressed
with the rap concert that went on downstairs or any
of the standing and applauding and Dream Team Dream Team today.
I don't think he's impressed with that.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Well, look, it's not just that this judge thought that
he is a flight list. This judge said that he
is violent.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Do you know how many victims called me today, Elizabeth
and said I'm scared. I'm trying to get somewhere right now.
And I was like, are we all doing. I wasn't
feeling scared to go home, but they were like, I
got a call from somebody high up in the industry
and he was like, I wouldn't post in real time
where you are for a while. Don't post your home,
(13:26):
don't post where you're actually at. Post it like two
or three days later. That's the type of conversations that
people are having right now. There are eighty plus simple suits.
What kind of conversations do you think they're having. What
kind of odds do you think they have right now
of what this man could potentially turn into is so dangerous?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Well, look what you are saying about your concerns, you know,
Cassy's attorney. After Combs's defense asked for him to be
released on bail, Kathy's attorney filed a letter to the
judge staying, Cassie is concerned that her life is in danger,
that the Cenisses who testified in this trial that their
lives are in danger, and that he is a danger
(14:08):
to the community. That was part of what the judge
considered as he made his decision to deny him bail.
Now Seawan Combs his face when he was denied bail.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
He was stunned.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
His mouth was open, his eyes were widened.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
He could not believe it.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
He thought that he was going home and like you said,
that he was going to celebrate July Force with his family.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
And that's the case. What's interesting is how scared he
was and how defeated he was being reported of yesterday
and especially this morning today. Everybody talked of his face
almost having tears, in him being overwhelmed. It's almost as
if he kind of already thought he knew how things
were going to go, and he was seeing that it
(14:46):
could maybe not go that way, and he was trying
to trust in whatever he believes in was gonna happen,
because he had all the confidence in the world on
that final closing day. Then he got really scared. For
a couple of weeks, everyone was reporting it, all of
this happy, you're a great judge, Thanks a lot, I'm
gonna get a corona. Did you need anything else?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
And I have to tell you, I don't think the
judge was impressed by that, But I'm saying no.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
But I'm saying all of this back and forth behavior
from him, it makes me feel like he had a
strong idea. It could just be his attorneys leading him.
I don't know exactly until I see. I want to
see what the judge does with the sentencing. I think
he should be hitting the higher edges of twenty. I'm
seeing about eighteen. If I see about eighteen, I feel
like I'll feel like this wasn't something bigger.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Look, I don't want to get your hope stuff. I
don't want to get.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Your viewers hope stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
But every one of our legal experts on our air,
you know, I have been outside the courthouse every single
day and inside the court room with Laura Coates, who's
one of my dear friends and one of our anchors.
She's a former propecutor. She said that we are looking
at a minimal amount of us.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Minimal like why is a minimal amount on five.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Like three to five? Because he has not been convicted before,
so in the eyes of the judge and the eyes
of the court, he is seen as a first time offender. Now,
look the prosecution they.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Said Matathine is a first time a sender, they would
let him go.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Liz Well, and look, I think you bring up an
excellent point. Because the judge and denying him bail. That
was a shock. Now by the way I had predicted
that outside of the courthouse. I said, this is the
same judge who denied him bail before his trial. And
the judge had said the reason why he denied him
bail is because he was a flight risk, because he
was a danger to society, and because he was hampering
(16:39):
with witnesses. Remember the prosecution accused Sean Combe ahead of
his trial of paying other inmates in the NDC to
use their phones.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
He was accused of a lot of crazy shit in
those bond hearings. What's crazy is that was only two
months ago. You think that you think that thought pattern
has changed in two months, Elizabeth.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And that is why the judge knows that this is
a and the judge actually, you know, the judge said
that I'm just remembering that in denying him bail. He said,
I already denied him bail when it wasn't mandatory. Why
would my thoughts change now? So this judge is not
impressed with some of the behavior that Shawn Colmbs has displayed.
Like you said, if he was Shawn Colms will be
(17:21):
home with his family right now. He's awaiting his sentence.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
So you said his face was shocked when they said no.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
His face was shocked.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
How long did it stay shocked?
Speaker 1 (17:31):
You know, momentarily, but he was absolutely stocked. And then
after when he was being ushered out by the marshals,
he was talking to his family and he said, it's
all right, we'll get through this. He said to his
mom that he loves her so but he was absolutely stunned.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Was that before or after the rap concert outside the
federal courtroom?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That was after, because that rap concert, as you call it,
and I didn't see it with my own eyes, but
I saw video of it. And that was after the verdict,
but before the bail hearing. So this was before he
was denied bail. When his son was gloating, not quoting,
he performed the song, he took his shirt off.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I've seen the footage. He took his shirt off. He
did all of the lyrics to Free Diddy. You never
were going to get him. Were rich, We have money,
you don't. We know how to work this system. These
are the lyrics of the albums and the song. And
then his girlfriend jumped out to the van and started working,
turned around, started dropping that ass outside of a federal building.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yes, and look, let me just say one thing. I
know this is a bit of a tangent, but let's
be honest. If the one celebrity who shows up during
trial to support you with Kanye West, and if during
a trial when your father is facing life in prison,
you're releasing a song with Kanye West, a blatant hitler
loving anti semi got to tell you that's not who
I would want supporting me. So let's just put that
(18:58):
out there.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Let's just put it out there that they've already done
a little music collapse from prison, and Kanye's also gotten
in front of discussing touching his cousin and doing things
with men, and we're starting to get into dangerous territory
where we are not talking about the actual conditions, we
are not even sentencing the actual conditions correctly because nobody
(19:33):
is being accountable for their actual behavior and intentions. And yes,
everybody wants to win the circus that we just participated
in for two months, but I'm not seeing a ton
of accountability anywhere. Possibly in what you said in regards
to Cassie feeling like she paved a way for a
little bit of justice to occur, But God, if we
(19:57):
were going to open this box and we were going
to open it wide enough for eighty plus civil lawsuits
that aren't going anywhere anytime soon. I have spoken with
multiple lawyers that are representative of multiple cases right now,
and none of them have plans on dropping their cases
because they are scared, intimidated, or threatened right now because
(20:19):
they didn't decide to let him out now had he
been home in the next hour. I don't know what
people would be saying tonight, but as of right now,
nobody's dropping their civil suits. This is ongoing, and let's
not forget R Kelly walked around the R Kelly got
away the first time, and he walked around and he
did his victory lap. OJ Simpson also did a victory lap.
(20:41):
They were major upsets historically that in the moment they
were all kinds of cheers. OJ had a much bigger
reception than Diddy and his son's rap concert with the
girlfriend working. But either way, if you look at history,
we've seen walks and victory. We've seen victory. He walks
where karma ends up still catching up to you at
(21:03):
the end of it.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
And look, I'm glad that you brought up the civil
suits because this legal battle is not over for Shaan
kOhm nowhere.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Near and by the way, the standard that these people
have to meet in civil core is much different, and
it's going to drain the account.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And look, here's what's interesting is when I interviewed Cassie's
attorney today, I asked him because he represents aside from Cassie,
who of course is already settled, he does represent one
other civil accuser, so of course he can't speak to
these roughly seventy, however, many dozens?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Dozens? Does? I heard you say seventy on the air
a few times. It's over eighty, Elizabeth.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Okay, So look, it's a huge number. It's an enormous number,
all with patterns saying that her not all, but the
majority of saying that I was drugged, I could drink.
I don't remember anything, the same patterns.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
So I asked Doug Wigdor, Cassie's attorney, I said, what
do you think is going to happen now that he
won't be serving a life sentence? Are these civil accusers
going to be scared? Or will they be pursuing his suit?
And he brought up something so interesting, He said, look,
strictly on the plaintiff side, if you're looking at this,
there's actually a silver lining because had he been convicted
(22:16):
on racketeering, the government could have seized his assets, meaning
he has no money. Cassie's attorney said, look at what's
happened with the Harvey Weinstein victims. He had to bankrupt
his companies. They have not seen a penny. So of
course money does not solve everything. I mean, look at Cassie.
Her attorney told me today that she would rather have
(22:37):
none of this have happened to her ever, than to
have that thirty million dollars. I believe that's true, but
it was an interesting point that he said that for
these civil accusers, now there is something to go after
because his assets are not going to be seated. So
over Shamkom.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
He has a legal mountain.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Of dozens and dozens and dozens of.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Civil suits ahead of him. But you know how quickly
people can move money around and make it disappear, Elizabeth.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Look for Shawn Colmbs. His primary concern here was this
criminal case. He did not want to spend the rest
of his life behind bars, but he still has these
civil suits to contend with. And as you said, as
you're hearing, people are not pulling these suits. And remember,
if he serves prison time, this is still Shawn Colmbs
one of the most powerful men behind bars in prison.
(23:27):
This would not have happened had Cassie not filed her
lawsuit and had other people come forth with accusations against him.
So this is really a stunning turn of events if
you look at where Shawn Colmbs was three years ago.
So that I think is an important point to make
(23:50):
that even though he has been absolved of these more
serious charges, he has not been absolved of the horristic,
egregious sleeping allegations against him from men and women in
mine as a cross jackets. He denies all of them,
but those allegations and still stamp.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
It's still too damning. And by the way, everybody that
calls me today just looked. They just said, we're never
going to see justice. They were never going to be
able to There's so many people that have been so
disenfranchised in the music industry that they never expected to
even see anything good from this, Like they were almost
waiting for another gut punch, the same feeling that we
(24:29):
saw on the Inner Continental video. Gut punches they come
in mental forms and physical forms. When it comes to ditty,
that's a fact. It's on camera, it's a fact. With
that being said, the mental punches. I watched Cassie's Intercontinental
(24:49):
video like seventeen times today, Elizabeth, seventeen fucking times.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
There are so many fucking people that feel so unseen.
It's horrible. It's horrible. It's horrible to talk to them.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
It's horrible to see the news moving on. Like I
said to our last conversation, what do you do? Just
move on?
Speaker 3 (25:14):
That's what you did today.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I watched you having to walk through it, and you
got your your points made about, you know, with Cassie's lawyer,
and you did a good job at at like bringing
up the upsides of this. But like, this is shocking,
and this is a gut punch for so many people.
People that don't have lawsuits, people that aren't trying to
(25:37):
make money to be seen, victims that did not want
to be seen or profit off of this, but just
regret ever being in his path and being involved in
whatever they they whatever hurt harmed them, and they're just
like I told you, this is how it works. And
I've been sitting here for two months telling all of
(25:58):
them this isn't how it works that we got here,
the case is here. I'm looking over the notes. I'm
talking to everybody of every color, of every gender. I'm
talking to every age group, like everybody is feeling consistently
the same sentencing across the board as to how that
(26:18):
courtroom made them feel. And the jurors were in that
courtroom there were more charges there.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
No listen, I believe that I actually referenced this interview
the last time that we spoke Aubrey. But you know,
during this trial, I interviewed Toronto Burke, who is the
head of the N two movement. Yes, and I asked her,
I said, if Sean Combs is acquitted, what does that
mean for all of this? And Toronto Burke was saying
to me, because her life's work is to support survivors
(26:48):
of sexual violence who are having a very difficult time
with this verdict today.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Well, you guys pulled someone on CNN. It wasn't you
out there, but a woman was pulled out. I don't
know if it's who you're talking about, or it's another
very epic journalist in the hip hop world, but she
just said her heart was with Cassie and she you
know she had interviewed Puff when he was like nine,
when he was a young kid. She's like a she's
somebody prolific in the hip hop world. And she literally
(27:16):
just yanked her on the screen like live, like we're
gonna just run to this. And the woman literally said,
I'm wondering when these men are going to finally just
stop making excuses, acknowledge their behavior, and change it. It's
really not simple. It's been happening in the industry for
far too long. The levels of this are being felt
(27:37):
so deeply among so many people that you don't know
their names and you never will, and it's all coming
down to the an accountability card and just finally, stop
stop making excuses for this behavior and just tell the
world what you did, and let's get it. Let's stop it.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
So on that note, I want to review what Toronto
told me when I asked her about what happens if
he's acquitted, And of course I have not talked her
yet since this verdict, but here's what she said. She
said that if he walks away from this case by
some miracle, we need to be talking about what we
all witnessed together. You can't unring this bell. We all
listened to Cassie. We all saw that video. We've heard
(28:14):
this testimony that's not going anywhere. We sometimes have short memories,
though in one apology video, one great produced song, he
could start building himself back. We need to have a
longer memory. So, regardless of the outcomes of these trials,
I hope that we have institutional memory of what we saw.
She went on to tell me, don't gaslight yourself and
don't doubt yourself. Don't doubt your own eyes and ears.
(28:38):
We saw that man beat that woman in that hotel.
Whatever the reasons behind it, we saw what we saw.
And she said that she tells survivors of sexual violence
all the time, do not put your weight into the
criminal justice system, because the criminal justice system, she said,
has been failing survivors of sexual abuse since the beginning
(28:58):
of time. She said that to you yet Sean Holmes
into a courtroom in itself is momentous, and that is
how she is seeing progress, even if it's a slow, slow,
slow drip.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, that's just a really slow drip, Elizabeth. But I
agree with the beginning of what she said in regards
to we need to start having the conversations and we
need to start holding the behavior accountable. And honestly, I'm
speaking really predominantly to men out there. You came from
(29:29):
a woman. You've got to assess your behavior toward women.
We are literally asking for our own body autonomy back
and you got us on our knees. Let us up
and breathe a little bit. Please start being accountable for
your behavior, start assessing it and changing it. If it's
(29:50):
if you know in your gut that you resonated with
the parts of this trial that we're disturbing. We have
to work together to get a better society of this,
taking this beyond the jury. Twelve. People are not going
to decide that a woman, a man, or an artist
is the property of the most wealthy and powerful people
(30:13):
if they want them. They're not going to decide that
for us. That's not in their hands and their call
is not going to make that decision for us. But
we have to start protecting each other more, and we
have to start doing what she said, having conversations that
are hard to have, and holding ourselves accountable for our behavior.
(30:35):
All Raby, Thanks Elizabeth
Amy and TJ presents Aubrey Oday covering the did He trial.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Let's talk. So you were at court today, you actually
I was watching you on the television. I was so
proud of you. You look so beautiful this morning, and I
was in the most chipper of moods because where we've
left it off this morning with every journalist and news
site reporting on the case, was the prosecution should feel
(00:26):
pretty good right now, the defense should feel nervous. That's
that was the overall understanding of the moment. They were
they we were in given that it seems like they
had made rulings, and if they were conflicted about Rico,
the rulings of anything underneath, it means that there are
people thought Rico was there, then they had to have
thought the other things were there we thought, or most
(00:48):
of the media world sought, and then as it all
came in, it just got slipped on its ass so fast.
I was watching.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
I was watching, Uh, I don't.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Know who your in air person is. I was looking
at well Flitter and he was so quiet. I've never
seen Wolfe so quiet, and I've seen him call elections
that I don't know what his political beliefs are. But
I didn't. I don't know that he loved the call
he had to make, but he stood in that moment
and made it. When Wolf was silent, I was My
guts were on the floor.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yes, I mean, look, I have to say I was stunned.
I was not shocked. And here's the reason why. And
we spoke about this about weeks ago on this podcast.
Aubrey is, there were a lot of moments in this
trial that made you realize that Gift is not a
lock at all. We have been saying that. I know
(01:37):
you've been saying that since day one. I've been reporting
that since day one. There was a lot of gray area.
There was testimony that came in that either fell flat
or actually hurt the prosecution. So look, did many people
anticipate a different verdicts. Yes, But there were moments in
(01:57):
the trial where as I was discussing with my team
and with our legal analyst, I remember saying, you know,
I don't see a path to a full acquittal, just
based on the evidence and based on sitting there in court.
And the reason why was because of those two transportations
to engage in prostitution charges. I believed that when they
showed documentation, concrete, tangible evidence that there was really no
(02:20):
way out of those two charges.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Elizabeth, I didn't see a way out of Cassie's sex trafficking.
I feel like it was all the way there, and
her situation was so different than the other victim, Jane Doe,
you and I discussed you looked at two different people.
They were drastically different. The Cassie one because I was
there when she came in the very first day she
(02:43):
came in to ask plef to be on the label,
to knowing her in her prior relationship with Ryan, to
you having been witnessing everything in court, her sex trafficking
charge was there.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yes, And you know what, I I believe that if
this case were just centered around Cassie, and you remember
the first indictment was just Cassie, she was victim one,
and in that indictment victim one with Cassie, I believe
that had she been the only horror witness and Mia,
(03:20):
I think give me a testified that I think had
this been centered just around Cassie, I think that there
could have been a different outcome here. You know, we
spoke about this and you just mentioned it that Jane
and Cassie are very different women, both with horristic alleges,
so different that the cultural weight of this decision is immeasurable.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Right now, it is literally heartbreaking to witness to witness
to know how many civil suits eighty five I think
now eighty plus lawsuits right now. I think at least
three or four just filed in the last week. There
are all of that. Aside from what's going on in court.
There are so many people that have had their lives
impacted by day experiences with Sean Combs, only for all
(04:02):
of those stories to fall short in the eyes of
the jury. I mean, I can only hope that these
jurors never have to watch somebody they love endure everything
that we have heard everyone describe. I feel like Cassie
is somewhere feeling taking the weight of this in. I mean,
we've been dissecting all of these people's credibility versus understanding
(04:26):
their courage. It's in us to dissect versus to see
and believe what's in front of us. And let's be clear,
like the courtroom operates by the law, it does not
mean it delivers justice. Every time we have a lot
of courts deciding a lot of things right now that
are going to be put a lot of people in
(04:49):
danger that are not best for us overall. It's the law,
it does not mean it is justice, and it's not
the best place to develop a moral compass the world
needs right now urgently. So to me, what I worry is,
we just told the world that everything we even listened
(05:09):
to Cassie it had experience. I mean, she couldn't leave
her home without checking in. There were mandatory check ins, routines,
stop buies, even when she got a little bit of
her life back. At any point, did he could come
in and turn her life upside down, the control that
he had over her life for so long, knowing who
she was when she came in there, knowing what she
(05:30):
became all these years later. Like to me, I would
never in my life want the law to consider that
of no guilt. What kind of presidents are we starting
for this industry and for rich, powerful, wealthy men and
beyond that, Elizabeth, I have seen reporting that when the
(05:52):
kids came out and got in the van, that they
opened the van door, which, by the way, I don't
know if you know this, but Kanye released an album
which did he on it and with his son's team YEP.
They released a full album this past week. He played
his hit song opened Up the Van Door, ended a
full blown performance, took his shirt off while his girlfriend
was twerking in the back. Did you get to see
(06:14):
any of that?
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I saw the commotion around it from where I was standing, because,
as you know, I was literally live on our air
most of the day, so I couldn't be right near there.
But I did see video footage of it. What case
have you been in?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Where people stand up and start clapping to your dream team,
dream team, to a defense that did have put on
no defense, and to a closing statement that basically flat
shamed and told the entire world this was a great man.
He provided an incredible working environment. All these girls were
housed and they were lined up to do the freak
offs and this is what women will do. And he
(06:50):
gave everybody the lab of luxury and every now and
then he got me in on drugs Like that is
what the jury believed enough to give a non guilty
verdict on more of the important charges. So what are
they telling us? What do artists have to do now?
What do women have to do now?
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Well, like you said, Aubrey in a court of law.
They are following the law. The scope is very limited.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
I saw sex trafficking in the law. I have read
every transcript, as I say, of this, most people have not.
You've been in court. I have read every transcript because
I am reporting on this. I am not just watching
the news Occasionally. I saw a walking path to sex
trafficking with Cassie. That was very believable. She did not
soil herself. She did not come off as a liar
(07:41):
or like I had any doubt in her story unless
Jane Doe just trickled over onto her walking path. Her
experience deserved inaccurate calling of the law.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Look, as you were saying that justice is not always
served here. It is a high burden to meet these charges.
And a defense attorney's job is not to prove the truth.
The defense attorney's job is to defend their client, who
oftentimes in this case certainly is paying them a lot
(08:15):
of money.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
I know, and they were paid a lot of money
to give a narrative that's dishonest and frankly dangerous to
many people. The Bonnie and Clyde, they were equals. They
were in a messy love relationship. What is every woman
out there in a quote messy love relationship thinking about
in regards to her options to ever feel safe again
(08:39):
in life tonight?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Now, I want to tell you because you reference a
few moments here from Ditty's defense of closing argument where
they spoke about Cassie and that Bonnie and Clyde narratives. So, Aubrey, today,
I sat down with Cassie's attorney. I'm the only journalist
who has sat down with him for his first interview you,
and I asked, how is Cassie doing because she is
(09:04):
not expected to speak out. She is at home with
her family, She's a new mom, she has three kids.
Her attorney, Doug Wigdoor, told me that she wants to
move on. But he told me he don't worry about Cassie.
He said she's actually really doing okay. He said that
when he spoke to her right after the verdict, that
she was comforted and filled with gratitude, nrowing that if
(09:25):
she had not come forward, that Sean Holmes would have
never stepped foot into a courtroom and would have never
been convicted. Because look, it is devastating to people like
you that he was acquitted on the more serious charges,
that this is a man who is whole life, well
not his whole life, but you know he's self made.
But the past three decades has been about wealth, power, access,
(09:49):
calling the shocks, control, coagent interviews.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I'll throw those three in myself.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
And now he is a convicted feld. Yes, he's not
facing life in prison. No, he's not going to serve
a long, long, long sentence.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Well, let me tell you something.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
I think the judge I was shot.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
I usually a judge would let this person without getting
the guilty count on the more serious charges if they're
not a flight risk, and go home. And he didn't.
He did not let him go home.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
That's very telling.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
And Diddy's known to have his big Fourth of July party.
This one would have been one for the books because
I highly doubt that he's reformed any parts of his
bad behavior in the short time that he's had to
think about his behavior, because he certainly didn't take any
accountability or acknowledgement. And he's got his whole family drink
in that juice. They did a full blown concert outside
of the fucking federal court building.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
And look, look, I mean, I think what you're getting
at here is the fact that this judge denied in
bail room. Remember this is the same judge who determines
his sentencing. So is that an indicator that when he
goes in for sentencing, that judge may not be fight
on the sentencing. Now, of course, the judge has to
(11:14):
follow the law. He has to look at precedent. Did
he is a first time offender in the legal sense
that he has never been convicted before, but he is
facing ten years on each of these charges. That is
twenty years if served consecutive.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
And by the way, let's let's also note that the
prosecution originally asked gave him a plea at the beginning
of his trial for fifteen judge, the judge could come
back all the way to twenty. Maybe if he doesn't
go to twenty, he could even go to eighteen. Eighteen
years is a significant period of time to serve. And
(11:48):
unless this is this his plan from the gods above
and Trump pardons him. If we're not going in that direction,
which is a whole we're going to start having a
whole kind of different other conversation if we go on
that dress. Let's not go into the land of impossibility
right now and stay in reality, The reality is he
(12:08):
did not let him go today. He thinks that he
is still a threat. The point that they were making
to take him out of jail were the very points
that were keeping him in there and making sure he
didn't get bonded out in the first round. They kept
him in that chill. They are keeping him in that jail,
which means they think he's a flight risk, because he'd
be sitting at home if they didn't feel he was.
(12:29):
He's proven that he's won.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Because judge the judge is very fair.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
He's been very fair to both sides. And he made the.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Call on that well he did.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
And also he is going to be making the call
on the sentencing time. And I don't think he's impressed
with the rap concert that went on downstairs or any
of the standing and applauding and Dream Team Dream Team today.
I don't think he's impressed with that.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Well, look, it's not just that this judge thought that
he is a flight list. This judge said that he
is violent.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Do you know how many victims called me today, Elizabeth
and said I'm scared. I'm trying to get somewhere right now.
And I was like, are we all doing. I wasn't
feeling scared to go home, but they were like, I
got a call from somebody high up in the industry
and he was like, I wouldn't post in real time
where you are for a while. Don't post your home,
(13:26):
don't post where you're actually at. Post it like two
or three days later. That's the type of conversations that
people are having right now. There are eighty plus simple suits.
What kind of conversations do you think they're having. What
kind of odds do you think they have right now
of what this man could potentially turn into is so dangerous?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Well, look what you are saying about your concerns, you know,
Cassy's attorney. After Combs's defense asked for him to be
released on bail, Kathy's attorney filed a letter to the
judge staying, Cassie is concerned that her life is in danger,
that the Cenisses who testified in this trial that their
lives are in danger, and that he is a danger
(14:08):
to the community. That was part of what the judge
considered as he made his decision to deny him bail.
Now Seawan Combs his face when he was denied bail.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
He was stunned.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
His mouth was open, his eyes were widened.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
He could not believe it.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
He thought that he was going home and like you said,
that he was going to celebrate July Force with his family.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
And that's the case. What's interesting is how scared he
was and how defeated he was being reported of yesterday
and especially this morning today. Everybody talked of his face
almost having tears, in him being overwhelmed. It's almost as
if he kind of already thought he knew how things
were going to go, and he was seeing that it
(14:46):
could maybe not go that way, and he was trying
to trust in whatever he believes in was gonna happen,
because he had all the confidence in the world on
that final closing day. Then he got really scared. For
a couple of weeks, everyone was reporting it, all of
this happy, you're a great judge, Thanks a lot, I'm
gonna get a corona. Did you need anything else?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
And I have to tell you, I don't think the
judge was impressed by that, But I'm saying no.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
But I'm saying all of this back and forth behavior
from him, it makes me feel like he had a
strong idea. It could just be his attorneys leading him.
I don't know exactly until I see. I want to
see what the judge does with the sentencing. I think
he should be hitting the higher edges of twenty. I'm
seeing about eighteen. If I see about eighteen, I feel
like I'll feel like this wasn't something bigger.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Look, I don't want to get your hope stuff. I
don't want to get.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Your viewers hope stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
But every one of our legal experts on our air,
you know, I have been outside the courthouse every single
day and inside the court room with Laura Coates, who's
one of my dear friends and one of our anchors.
She's a former propecutor. She said that we are looking
at a minimal amount of us.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Minimal like why is a minimal amount on five.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Like three to five? Because he has not been convicted before,
so in the eyes of the judge and the eyes
of the court, he is seen as a first time offender. Now,
look the prosecution they.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Said Matathine is a first time a sender, they would
let him go.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Liz Well, and look, I think you bring up an
excellent point. Because the judge and denying him bail. That
was a shock. Now by the way I had predicted
that outside of the courthouse. I said, this is the
same judge who denied him bail before his trial. And
the judge had said the reason why he denied him
bail is because he was a flight risk, because he
was a danger to society, and because he was hampering
(16:39):
with witnesses. Remember the prosecution accused Sean Combe ahead of
his trial of paying other inmates in the NDC to
use their phones.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
He was accused of a lot of crazy shit in
those bond hearings. What's crazy is that was only two
months ago. You think that you think that thought pattern
has changed in two months, Elizabeth.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And that is why the judge knows that this is
a and the judge actually, you know, the judge said
that I'm just remembering that in denying him bail. He said,
I already denied him bail when it wasn't mandatory. Why
would my thoughts change now? So this judge is not
impressed with some of the behavior that Shawn Colmbs has displayed.
Like you said, if he was Shawn Colms will be
(17:21):
home with his family right now. He's awaiting his sentence.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
So you said his face was shocked when they said no.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
His face was shocked.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
How long did it stay shocked?
Speaker 1 (17:31):
You know, momentarily, but he was absolutely stocked. And then
after when he was being ushered out by the marshals,
he was talking to his family and he said, it's
all right, we'll get through this. He said to his
mom that he loves her so but he was absolutely stunned.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Was that before or after the rap concert outside the
federal courtroom?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That was after, because that rap concert, as you call it,
and I didn't see it with my own eyes, but
I saw video of it. And that was after the verdict,
but before the bail hearing. So this was before he
was denied bail. When his son was gloating, not quoting,
he performed the song, he took his shirt off.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I've seen the footage. He took his shirt off. He
did all of the lyrics to Free Diddy. You never
were going to get him. Were rich, We have money,
you don't. We know how to work this system. These
are the lyrics of the albums and the song. And
then his girlfriend jumped out to the van and started working,
turned around, started dropping that ass outside of a federal building.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yes, and look, let me just say one thing. I
know this is a bit of a tangent, but let's
be honest. If the one celebrity who shows up during
trial to support you with Kanye West, and if during
a trial when your father is facing life in prison,
you're releasing a song with Kanye West, a blatant hitler
loving anti semi got to tell you that's not who
I would want supporting me. So let's just put that
(18:58):
out there.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Let's just put it out there that they've already done
a little music collapse from prison, and Kanye's also gotten
in front of discussing touching his cousin and doing things
with men, and we're starting to get into dangerous territory
where we are not talking about the actual conditions, we
are not even sentencing the actual conditions correctly because nobody
(19:33):
is being accountable for their actual behavior and intentions. And yes,
everybody wants to win the circus that we just participated
in for two months, but I'm not seeing a ton
of accountability anywhere. Possibly in what you said in regards
to Cassie feeling like she paved a way for a
little bit of justice to occur, But God, if we
(19:57):
were going to open this box and we were going
to open it wide enough for eighty plus civil lawsuits
that aren't going anywhere anytime soon. I have spoken with
multiple lawyers that are representative of multiple cases right now,
and none of them have plans on dropping their cases
because they are scared, intimidated, or threatened right now because
(20:19):
they didn't decide to let him out now had he
been home in the next hour. I don't know what
people would be saying tonight, but as of right now,
nobody's dropping their civil suits. This is ongoing, and let's
not forget R Kelly walked around the R Kelly got
away the first time, and he walked around and he
did his victory lap. OJ Simpson also did a victory lap.
(20:41):
They were major upsets historically that in the moment they
were all kinds of cheers. OJ had a much bigger
reception than Diddy and his son's rap concert with the
girlfriend working. But either way, if you look at history,
we've seen walks and victory. We've seen victory. He walks
where karma ends up still catching up to you at
(21:03):
the end of it.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
And look, I'm glad that you brought up the civil
suits because this legal battle is not over for Shaan
kOhm nowhere.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Near and by the way, the standard that these people
have to meet in civil core is much different, and
it's going to drain the account.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And look, here's what's interesting is when I interviewed Cassie's
attorney today, I asked him because he represents aside from Cassie,
who of course is already settled, he does represent one
other civil accuser, so of course he can't speak to
these roughly seventy, however, many dozens?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Dozens? Does? I heard you say seventy on the air
a few times. It's over eighty, Elizabeth.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Okay, So look, it's a huge number. It's an enormous number,
all with patterns saying that her not all, but the
majority of saying that I was drugged, I could drink.
I don't remember anything, the same patterns.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
So I asked Doug Wigdor, Cassie's attorney, I said, what
do you think is going to happen now that he
won't be serving a life sentence? Are these civil accusers
going to be scared? Or will they be pursuing his suit?
And he brought up something so interesting, He said, look,
strictly on the plaintiff side, if you're looking at this,
there's actually a silver lining because had he been convicted
(22:16):
on racketeering, the government could have seized his assets, meaning
he has no money. Cassie's attorney said, look at what's
happened with the Harvey Weinstein victims. He had to bankrupt
his companies. They have not seen a penny. So of
course money does not solve everything. I mean, look at Cassie.
Her attorney told me today that she would rather have
(22:37):
none of this have happened to her ever, than to
have that thirty million dollars. I believe that's true, but
it was an interesting point that he said that for
these civil accusers, now there is something to go after
because his assets are not going to be seated. So
over Shamkom.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
He has a legal mountain.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Of dozens and dozens and dozens of.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Civil suits ahead of him. But you know how quickly
people can move money around and make it disappear, Elizabeth.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Look for Shawn Colmbs. His primary concern here was this
criminal case. He did not want to spend the rest
of his life behind bars, but he still has these
civil suits to contend with. And as you said, as
you're hearing, people are not pulling these suits. And remember,
if he serves prison time, this is still Shawn Colmbs
one of the most powerful men behind bars in prison.
(23:27):
This would not have happened had Cassie not filed her
lawsuit and had other people come forth with accusations against him.
So this is really a stunning turn of events if
you look at where Shawn Colmbs was three years ago.
So that I think is an important point to make
(23:50):
that even though he has been absolved of these more
serious charges, he has not been absolved of the horristic,
egregious sleeping allegations against him from men and women in
mine as a cross jackets. He denies all of them,
but those allegations and still stamp.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
It's still too damning. And by the way, everybody that
calls me today just looked. They just said, we're never
going to see justice. They were never going to be
able to There's so many people that have been so
disenfranchised in the music industry that they never expected to
even see anything good from this, Like they were almost
waiting for another gut punch, the same feeling that we
(24:29):
saw on the Inner Continental video. Gut punches they come
in mental forms and physical forms. When it comes to ditty,
that's a fact. It's on camera, it's a fact. With
that being said, the mental punches. I watched Cassie's Intercontinental
(24:49):
video like seventeen times today, Elizabeth, seventeen fucking times.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
There are so many fucking people that feel so unseen.
It's horrible. It's horrible. It's horrible to talk to them.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
It's horrible to see the news moving on. Like I
said to our last conversation, what do you do? Just
move on?
Speaker 3 (25:14):
That's what you did today.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I watched you having to walk through it, and you
got your your points made about, you know, with Cassie's lawyer,
and you did a good job at at like bringing
up the upsides of this. But like, this is shocking,
and this is a gut punch for so many people.
People that don't have lawsuits, people that aren't trying to
(25:37):
make money to be seen, victims that did not want
to be seen or profit off of this, but just
regret ever being in his path and being involved in
whatever they they whatever hurt harmed them, and they're just
like I told you, this is how it works. And
I've been sitting here for two months telling all of
(25:58):
them this isn't how it works that we got here,
the case is here. I'm looking over the notes. I'm
talking to everybody of every color, of every gender. I'm
talking to every age group, like everybody is feeling consistently
the same sentencing across the board as to how that
(26:18):
courtroom made them feel. And the jurors were in that
courtroom there were more charges there.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
No listen, I believe that I actually referenced this interview
the last time that we spoke Aubrey. But you know,
during this trial, I interviewed Toronto Burke, who is the
head of the N two movement. Yes, and I asked her,
I said, if Sean Combs is acquitted, what does that
mean for all of this? And Toronto Burke was saying
to me, because her life's work is to support survivors
(26:48):
of sexual violence who are having a very difficult time
with this verdict today.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Well, you guys pulled someone on CNN. It wasn't you
out there, but a woman was pulled out. I don't
know if it's who you're talking about, or it's another
very epic journalist in the hip hop world, but she
just said her heart was with Cassie and she you
know she had interviewed Puff when he was like nine,
when he was a young kid. She's like a she's
somebody prolific in the hip hop world. And she literally
(27:16):
just yanked her on the screen like live, like we're
gonna just run to this. And the woman literally said,
I'm wondering when these men are going to finally just
stop making excuses, acknowledge their behavior, and change it. It's
really not simple. It's been happening in the industry for
far too long. The levels of this are being felt
(27:37):
so deeply among so many people that you don't know
their names and you never will, and it's all coming
down to the an accountability card and just finally, stop
stop making excuses for this behavior and just tell the
world what you did, and let's get it. Let's stop it.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
So on that note, I want to review what Toronto
told me when I asked her about what happens if
he's acquitted, And of course I have not talked her
yet since this verdict, but here's what she said. She
said that if he walks away from this case by
some miracle, we need to be talking about what we
all witnessed together. You can't unring this bell. We all
listened to Cassie. We all saw that video. We've heard
(28:14):
this testimony that's not going anywhere. We sometimes have short memories,
though in one apology video, one great produced song, he
could start building himself back. We need to have a
longer memory. So, regardless of the outcomes of these trials,
I hope that we have institutional memory of what we saw.
She went on to tell me, don't gaslight yourself and
don't doubt yourself. Don't doubt your own eyes and ears.
(28:38):
We saw that man beat that woman in that hotel.
Whatever the reasons behind it, we saw what we saw.
And she said that she tells survivors of sexual violence
all the time, do not put your weight into the
criminal justice system, because the criminal justice system, she said,
has been failing survivors of sexual abuse since the beginning
(28:58):
of time. She said that to you yet Sean Holmes
into a courtroom in itself is momentous, and that is
how she is seeing progress, even if it's a slow, slow,
slow drip.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Yeah, that's just a really slow drip, Elizabeth. But I
agree with the beginning of what she said in regards
to we need to start having the conversations and we
need to start holding the behavior accountable. And honestly, I'm
speaking really predominantly to men out there. You came from
(29:29):
a woman. You've got to assess your behavior toward women.
We are literally asking for our own body autonomy back
and you got us on our knees. Let us up
and breathe a little bit. Please start being accountable for
your behavior, start assessing it and changing it. If it's
(29:50):
if you know in your gut that you resonated with
the parts of this trial that we're disturbing. We have
to work together to get a better society of this,
taking this beyond the jury. Twelve. People are not going
to decide that a woman, a man, or an artist
is the property of the most wealthy and powerful people
(30:13):
if they want them. They're not going to decide that
for us. That's not in their hands and their call
is not going to make that decision for us. But
we have to start protecting each other more, and we
have to start doing what she said, having conversations that
are hard to have, and holding ourselves accountable for our behavior.
(30:35):
All Raby, Thanks Elizabeth
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