December 26, 2023 • 34 mins
We know this curious community has a lot of questions – in this episode, Hilarie, Dan, and Po take a midseason break in our case deep dives to answer some of those questions. The team will answer your questions surrounding the Brandon Woodruff case, as well as further illuminate their approach to working in the true crime genre. We encourage everyone to continue submitting questions via social media! And tune in for an important tease on the next case we will be diving into.
For more information about this and other cases we've covered, follow our social media handles @ICHHstories on Instagram and Twitter.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Last episode, we finished our exploration of
the Brandon Woodroof case, and we also shared some resources
(00:23):
for those of you who would like to support Brandon
in his search for freedom. On this episode, we will
be answering some of the questions you had, not only
in Brandon's story, but in our process as well. I'm
Hillary Burton Morgan and this is true crime story. It
couldn't happen here. Hi, you guys, we have a very
(00:58):
special episode of a didn't happen here for you. This
is you know, this is like our mid season break.
It's our intermission. And so I am joined by Poe
Hutcheons and Dan Flaherty, who you guys know and love,
and our dear Andrew is off filming right now. He's
trapesing around the country being a DP and probably being grumpy.
That's Andrew. Now that our listeners are becoming more familiar
(01:21):
with the way that we tell these stories, we have
all whole slew of questions that they've sent to us.
I've gotten to interact with the fan base a little
bit because I've done Instagram lives after our episodes have
aired or during our episodes airing, Dan, I could never
find you on Instagram, but I know that you witnessed
a couple of the Instagram lives. Do you have a
(01:43):
secret like burner account? Am I blowing up your spot
right now?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I don't know. I'm not on Instagram at all. I
was able to sort of tap in and watch your
Instagram live during the episodes, but yeah, I don't have
my own account.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
It was interesting to see people's questions in real time
while our episodes air. And it's crazy because we get
so deep in it that sometimes we can't see the
forest for the trees. We're like, but the trees, the trees.
And then when you take a step back and you
just really listen to the audience, their questions can be,
I don't know, surprising. Sometimes, have you guys been caught
(02:18):
off guard by any questions that you've gotten doing this
kind of work, this true crime journalism?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Sometimes Yeah, I like how you handle it, though it's
really I'm glad it's you and not us. I mean,
you know, I talk about what we do all the
time and cases and I get definitely in the weeds
in the trees. But I love the way you are
so steady on your feet in like quick response and
it's fun to see.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I thought your Instagram live during the broadcast of the
West Virginia episode was particularly interesting and great and wonderful
because Jason Lively and Billy Lively we're both there watching
live and commenting, and Andrew George, the attorney in the story,
was on and you guys were able to loop him in,
(03:04):
so he was on live with you. And that was just,
I think, an unplanned, really situation and it just turned
into something really really special, all right.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
For those of you at home who didn't watch that
particular episode, that's our West Virginia episode. And Jason Lively
was a young man who was convicted of arson and
murder when it turns out there was no arson at all.
It was just a random house fire. It was like
an electrical fire, totally accidental, and so he went to
(03:35):
prison for nothing. Jason was exonerated in twenty twenty, but
he's still waiting for fair compensation for his wrongful imprisonment
by the State of West Virginia. So there is a
GoFundMe you can visit and donate too if you want
to support Jason in his life after prison, and that's
LinkedIn our Instagram. But I was very grateful to Andrew
(03:57):
George in that moment because he had all the infra,
he carried the conversation. He was so personable and engaging,
and I feel like our audience really responded very well
to him. And the other thing that made a huge
difference is that Jason himself was on the Instagram live
feed just like say and thank you to every person
(04:19):
that was voicing support. So you know, it's rare that
you engage with the subject of a true crime documentary
in that fashion.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
It's incredible, you know when the best and most rewarding
thing that Dan and I have ever had and you've
had now is the way that it opens people up,
like it is a healing thing to tell their story,
for us to bear witness, for them to see their
story out and people to interact. And then this is
an extra step and here he is with a giant
audience with you, champion. So it doesn't surprise me like
(04:51):
he's hearing people.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Caring, and then you know, we get to give some
candid opinions that we don't necessarily get to put in
the actual episode. That kind of live interaction really allows
a lot of freedom for I don't know, bouncing ideas
off each other. And so we have a number of
questions that have come in that have either come in
(05:13):
via Instagram or emails. Some are specific about the case
that we've covered this first half of the season, the
Brandon Woodruff case. Some are a little bit more general,
and so I'm just going to jump into these with
you guys. One of the questions is how do you
keep impartial when you are meeting or speaking to people
(05:35):
believed to be guilty? And maybe that those are people
who are believed to be guilty by the community, and
maybe we doubt that, or maybe it's the people who
we think actually did commit these crimes.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I always take the position that I don't really know
what happened. I wasn't there. When you know, if we're
talking about somebody who is possibly guilty and who people
believe is guilty, But we look at the facts, we
look at the evidence, we look at what was used
at the trial to convict this person, and that's what
we talk about. We talk about the questions that arise,
(06:11):
and I feel like that's not my position to judge
or to come up with the final answer on that.
So when I'm talking to someone, I'm just talking to
them as a person and talking to them about the situation,
and not as a guilty person or an innocent person.
I'm just trying to talk to them as a person.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Well, it's keeping an open mind. I mean, that's why
I'm so grateful for this team, because we can gain
things out together and really not be afraid to really
just dig in and put different ideas forward and look
at evidence and look at the different sides and facets
of that piece of information and really say, what do
we think this means?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
What could it mean?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
And keep that open mind because we believe that there's
a greater good of not just digging in because you
have to be right, but really trying to find out answers.
And it's sometimes in the gray area.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Often when we're talking to somebody, we will have an
opinion about if we think somebody is guilty or innocent,
And you know, I certainly have felt somebody is wrongfully convicted.
Who's sitting in prison and have just really believed that
they are truly innocent. But you know, I have to
be objective in asking the questions, and I'll ask questions
that I wouldn't necessarily want to ask, but I know
(07:23):
need to be asked because we need to let them
have the answers. You have to sort of set aside
your emotion and really just sort of say, Okay, we
need to talk about this situation. We need to ask
these questions, and you set that aside.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
You're so good at that, though, Dan, I mean, like
you're not afraid to just ask a person who's incarcerated,
did you do it? You know? I mean why does
it look like you did it? And you ask them
those hard questions because the only way we're going to
get at that nugget of truth is if we just
address the elephant in the room.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Well, because you're not asking it in an accusaway. You're
basically saying this question needs to be asked and giving
you the opportunity to talk, you know, And it's not
like I'm accusing you. I'm saying did you do this?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
But also why should we believe you? Especially if there's
circumstances like oh, you lied about these things, Okay, so
why should we believe you? Now? It is all about
the attitude. It's the trust that you build up, it's
the empathy that you lead with. But it goes the
other way. It also goes for law enforcement because there
are plenty of people who we've interviewed where we feel
(08:30):
that they have a bias. And that doesn't mean that
we are going in there for agatchya. I don't think
that that's in any way, shape or form how our
team functions, right, But you know, sometimes it's shocking they
reveal themselves in certain ways, their bias, their misogyny, their
you know, homophobia, whatever it is, again and again. But
it doesn't mean that you're going to disrespect that person,
(08:51):
because you know, you have to give this base communicative
respect to another person that you're interviewing.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Well, you just you mentioned homophobia. And so let's answer
or some specific questions about the Brandon woodriff case, because
this was one that haunted me. You know, I just
think so much went wrong in this situation. But also
we're watching it compound right now with legislation being currently
passed in Texas that is just going to make it
(09:18):
worse and worse and worse for the LGBTQIA plus community.
There were a lot of people that just had questions
based in outrage because they couldn't believe that this was happening.
One of the things was about the jury pool. They're like,
how in the world were eight out of twelve jurors
allowed to stay seated on the jury after expressing their
views about homosexuality? Like, how in the world did they
(09:42):
not get dismissed? Why wasn't there a change of venue.
You know that outrage is very real, but I don't
know how to rectify it.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I mean, in that case, there was only a certain
number of challenges that could be made by either side.
A venue change is I think often a great idea,
but it really does have to be within the state.
I mean, if you're in the state of Texas, where
you're going to go, and you have to have really
good reason for it, and it's hard to get and
it's a hardship for the representing attorneys in the DA
(10:12):
because it means that they have to travel. I mean,
there's many many things that are costly and will take
more time in those kinds of cases. But it is
insane to me that somebody states that who you are,
who you being presented as is a crime in the
most fundamental way in their belief system. And yet they say,
but I can be unbiased, But how can you be
(10:32):
if you believe that? And that's a huge problem over
and over again in cases.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So one of the other questions about this specific case,
and I don't know the answer to this necessarily, is
was Brandon's sister, Charla ever looked at as a suspect.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
We don't see her as a listed suspect on any
of the documents, and from what we can see, we
don't see that she was considered a suspect. We do
see law enforcement say we want to talk to both
of these kids, and we want to find out what
they were doing that night, And certainly they did ask
the questions of where were you, what were you doing?
(11:22):
And she did tell law enforcement where she was at
the time of the murders, and they seem to have
ruled her out. So we don't see that she was
ever really considered a suspect.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
I think what drew all of us to this case
where our questions on how the investigation was conducted, you know,
I mean to this day. I still do not understand
why law enforcement didn't pump the brakes and re examine
all their leads after learning that Brandon saying he hated
his parents on MySpace wasn't real, you know, or that
(11:53):
untested hair, enormous hand, you know, those things still really
bother me.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
I mean, definitely there's some weird We wouldn't be doing
it if it wasn't messy and inconclusive and if there
weren't glaring issues. But why were these things pursued? And
why were they allowed to proceed with certain perspectives and
vocally in this case say things like, well, he's gay
and he's hiding it, so what else is he hiding?
Following really glaringly inconsistent and incorrect leads even after they
(12:26):
knew that there was problems with them because of a bias.
So that's like this case. And I love that we
have such a range of cases. What I love about
what we do is that there's a range of things.
There's people who we know didn't do it because there's
just absolute proof, and there's people who were, like, we
have no idea if they did it or didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
It's important, well, because injustice comes in so many different colors,
It comes in so many different shapes, you know, And
the more versions of injustice our show can illustrate for
people at home, probably the more open minded they'll be.
The voting booth, right, because all of this does come
down to local elections. We just had local elections and
(13:05):
I was trying to get everyone I knew to get
out and vote, because the district attorneys that we deal with,
the sheriffs that we deal with, the judges that we
deal with, everything is affected by local elections. And in
this case, in the brandon WOODRIF case, you know, we're
finally at a point where a lot of the people
who were engaged with this case are either cycling out
(13:29):
because they're retiring, or new people have won elections, and
so it's not all the same faces that were involved
when he was first convicted. And that's a good space
for someone to be in when there's fresh eyeballs. So
one of the questions we have here is what are
the most helpful things that we as viewers can do
(13:51):
to participate.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
I think the first thing is to get informed. I
feel like we dig into these cases and there's a
lot of material out there, information we're able to find
out on these cases, and there's only so much we
could present in our forty two minute episodes, you know,
but there's a lot more information out there, and I
always encourage people to dig in further, do more research,
(14:14):
listen to other podcasts. Even there's other people who have
done some of the same stories we've done, but I've
done it in a forum where they're able to sort
of put more information up there, you know, a website
with links to source documents like a potential wrongful conviction story,
where they will have their own website or their supporters
will have their own website and will put up documentation
(14:35):
of why they believe this person is innocent, and those
are super helpful, and I feel like people doing their
own research and doing their own digging is really the
first step. And then there's often on those websites indications
of what they can do, you know, I mean, either
directly help either signing a petition or writing letters that
kind of stuff, or indirectly, like you said, is to
encourage people to vote for feeling that the person who
(14:57):
prosecuted the case has some issues, then vote out of
that prosecutor.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
You know, well, and I will say that the noisier
people are about things that don't sit right with them,
the better. And so just as like an example, the
Nikki Yatomando case here in Dutchess County where I live
in New York was the catalyst for this TV show.
I've talked about her over and over again. She was
(15:22):
a young mother who was being horrifically abused by her partner.
He brought a gun into the equation and she ended
up shooting him with this gun. And she was given
a very aggressive sentence by the judge, and he said
some things to her that no victim of domestic violence
(15:43):
should ever ever hear, especially not from an elected official.
And so I was horrified that this judge ran in
the same circles that I ran in, and I found
out that he was going to be running for a
higher office in our community. And there was a lot
of outrage from Nicky's supporters and all of these people
(16:07):
that knew and injustice had happened. They went to the
internet forums, they went to the political websites, they went
to the news, they went everywhere to voice their displeasure.
And he lost the nomination. He didn't even run in
the election. He should not be in charge of families
in my community and so be noisy, like that can
(16:27):
pay off in this way. You know, it just happened here,
So I encourage other people. If someone's not doing their
job correctly, say something about it.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, And I mean in our episode with Christine Chetty,
who went missing and was later found murdered, her mom
Lynn worked tirelessly to get to the truth of what
happened to her daughter. And when the law enforcement agent
who really sort of wasn't helpful and during that investigation,
decided to run for sheriff, she campaigned against him and
(16:59):
was successful in keeping him from taking office. You know,
it's people like that who just take it upon themselves
to really try to make change.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, making change, Like if you can't get justice, making
change seems like a pretty good consolation prize.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
You know.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
It's like nothing is ever going to bring back the
person you lost or the situation that went sideways. You
cannot undo history. But making change is a valuable place
to put our energy, and that's really what we encourage
our audience to do.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
It's the only solace that some of these people have.
I mean, you see it with gun violence in the
United states, and how often the families become these massive advocates.
You see it with missing persons in the case of
Christine Chetty and Lynn and others, where the only way
they can survive it is if they fight for change
and for other families not to be subject to what
(17:50):
they were.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
So in terms of trying to make the change, in
terms of like trying to be noisy, one of the
questions we got is what can we do to get
these cases actually covered by more journalists. I think we're
all struggling with like local newspapers dying. Who's going to
cover a rural story not the New York Times, you know,
(18:12):
So how do we get more of these small town
stories covered.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
I feel like in several of our cases, when there
have been journalists who have covered those stories, it's really
inspiring to see in many of our stories. In the
Christian Griggs story, I feel like the journalists who took
on that case and really did in depth story I
did the right thing.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
And so that's really dig in for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Dan, You know, I think the Christian Griggs case, we
know that's the next case that we're going to be
diving into, and it is one that has really stuck
with all of us and for you guys at home
in a nutshell, the case is about a young black
man who was shot and killed in broad daylight at
his father in law's house, and his father in law,
(19:00):
patchisen Hall, claimed self defense. But the more you peel
back the layers in this case and you start asking questions,
the more it doesn't make sense. So you're right. These
two young journalists from WRAL, the local station in Andrew,
North Carolina, they took a look at this story and
they said, huh, something doesn't feel quite right. And sometimes
(19:22):
I feel like it's young journalists right. They're the ones
who aren't necessarily jaded by the business. Yet they're the
ones that are willing to go out on a limb.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I mean, you touch on something that's just really crucial
for law, for justice, for democracy, for everything, for fairness
and justice. Especially journalism is key. And the death moll
that's happening across the country with not supporting local journalists.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Local reporting is so so, so so important. You guys,
you hear us talking about all these different cases, I
don't know. Sometimes for me, I get really scared that
they're all going to start to flow into one thought pattern,
(20:09):
or that they'll get confused with each other, because to me,
each case and each family and each victim, like they're
so important and I want to give as much of
myself to them as possible. How do you compartmentalize all
of these stories? I mean, you've been doing it so
much longer than I have. How do you hold these
things with the respect that I know that you do?
(20:32):
Or at a certain point, are you like I have
to put this out of my head.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I can't put them out of my head. I mean
you draw from them as you go forward. But in
a way, it's bearing witness, right, It's like I'm driven
as you are, and we all are to try to
make a difference. Sometimes it's revelatory. Sometimes it's actually finding
out the truth or finding the murderer and a cold case,
or you know, various things. Sometimes it's just about how
(20:56):
it was reported or how it was investigated as the problem.
So we all do that for a purpose, and then
we're kind of bearing witness and it feels like it's
our responsibility. But I don't ever forget any of them,
and I guess in a good way because that's what
helps us build and understand each case that comes up
as we roll forward is that we have a better
and better grasp of all the different kind of facets
and we can pull from them and say, oh, oh,
(21:17):
that reminds me of this, and so this line of
inquiry or that way, that angle or facet of exploring
this case, we can pull from that experience. But also, yeah,
I mean it's haunting.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I think when you're talking about you know, we're doing
many episodes at once. Really we're growing right from one
to the other, and to sort of how to keep
that sort of to pay attention to each one. For me,
I actually really have a hard time sort of multitasking
on stories. Like we're getting ready to shoot next week,
and that's all I'm thinking about right now. I'm like,
(21:49):
I have to think about the story that we're going
to be telling and the people that we're going to
be filming with, and you know, I'm digging through and
thinking about what we need to ask and what we
need to say and how we're going to say it
and how we're going to present it. And that's what
I'm thinking about, and it's very hard for me. You know,
I'll have to watch a rough cut of another episode
at some point, but it takes me a long time
(22:10):
to get out of one head and then to the
other one, and it's I'm not that fast. So other
people are good at switching gears maybe, and I'm just like,
i can't watch that rough cut right now because I'm
thinking about this other case and I have to take
the time clear my head and go into it and
then come back again. It just it takes me a
(22:31):
while to sort of switch back and forth because it
just it.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
Does fill up all of my headspace. You know.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
It makes me feel like I'm cheating on the other
group of people when my attention is divided that way,
Like I'm not doing a good enough job for the
people who need my attention, like in this moment. And so,
whether that's when we're physically filming the episodes or when
they're airing, and I'm the one that's like the forward
(22:56):
facing promotion machine for these stories, I cannot be looking
at anything else because they need undivided attention and they
deserve undivided attention. And that has been really difficult for
me over the last couple of years, like feeling like
I need to be promoting this one while we're in
the midst of shooting this one, and that's just a
(23:19):
I don't know if that's a skill I'm going to learn.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
No, you shouldn't learn it. I mean that's I meant
cumulatively over time in our life spans of working, which
is what I understood your question to be. We don't
like doing episodic. We did it because that was your show.
And it was like, there was a list of reasons
why myself and this team wouldn't do this show until
after we talked to and the reasons of you and
the purpose and the bigger picture took over and we
(23:43):
just couldn't resist. But mainly, the reason the deep dive
happens and the reason we're doing these podcasts is because
they deserve that attention and that deep dive.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
We could not stand the fact that there were things
left on the cutting room floor. You know, that was
making me crazy because there's this avalanche of information and
in my head, I'm like, if we can just get
it to people, you know, they'll see it, they'll be
able to make a difference. And so this Brandon Woodrof case,
you know, he has a support group that has done
(24:12):
a significant amount of work organizing and putting out information
about his case. And so it really does just come
down to numbers and trying to get as many eyeballs
as possible on this information or as many listeners as
possible so that people can get involved. They can reach
out to advocacy groups, they can reach out to elected officials,
(24:36):
they can go and ask how they can get involved.
From brand and support team, I would say the one
thing that has really helped is watching families from one
case reach out to families from another case and offer
support and collaboration. You know, that's blown my mind. It
just it has absolutely blown my mind, you know. And
(24:58):
this is a long term relationship. So for you guys,
how important is it for you to stay in touch
with some of these people we've interacted with? You know,
I know that you guys have formed like healthy communications
with a lot of these families.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Not just the families, the lawyers as well, and sometimes
the cops. I mean we had, you know, a lieutenant
who was in charge of a case was a missing
person's case. He bucked the norm and paid attention to
somebody who was being and would have been ignored because
she was a sex worker. And there were reasons that
they were ignoring her disappearance, even though her family was
(25:36):
adamant that it was not normal, and he wouldn't let
that go, and he pursued it and listened to the
family and was able to solve this case, which wouldn't
have been solved if they didn't move as quickly as
they moved because of him listening to the family and
following through. And we found out later she came up
to you, Hillary and said, the daughter of this lieutenant
(26:00):
in charge came up and said that it had been
so healing for him, and that his trauma was healed
by being heard about the issues of having to combat
that kind of bias within law enforcement when he felt
their purpose was to serve these people and he was
being rebuffed and pushed back, and it healed the relationship
(26:20):
he had with his daughter. And he had died shortly thereafter.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Right, Yeah, just recently, when I was on my book tour,
the daughter of this lieutenant came up and said, my
dad passed away and we were with him. It doesn't
feel like that long ago. He passed away, and she
had always had a difficult relationship with him because he
was not forthcoming about his career and about his experience
(26:47):
in law enforcement, and he really had kind of bottled
it up, and after he sat down with our team,
he went to her and wanted to talk to her
about it because it was so cathartic, and I didn't
realize that was part of what we were doing. Honestly,
Like in my head, I just wanted to be the
(27:07):
megaphone that got the word out to people, you know,
but talking about this trauma from the law enforcement side,
you know, these people who went into a profession thinking
they were going to do good for their communities and
instead witnessed some pretty heinous stuff. You know, I didn't
think about that part of it, and that was new
(27:29):
to me. So I am so so grateful that I
ran into that lieutenant's daughter and that she took the
time to tell us that because he was wonderful. You know,
he was a wonderful man.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
So it's families of victims, it's people who are wrongfully
accused convicted in their families, and it's also law enforcement
that's trying to do the right thing and meeting often
very hard walls stopping them. It's lawyers, you know, who
are fighting for people and feeling like they're drowning because
they can't make the world see what's wrong with the case.
(28:04):
And it's sometimes people who admit that they were wrong,
prosecutors who admit that they were wrong.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Have you guys ever had a case that just completely
upended your world? You know, it's really hard not to
bring this stuff home a lot of them.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, you think about them all the time. You know,
there's several cases where they stay inside you and you
think about them, and you think about the people who
you got to know and the people who were affected
by these things that have happened. And yeah, it is hard,
you know, And there's definitely times where you know, I'm like,
I can't keep doing it. It's a lot, it's a
(28:42):
lot to think about all the time. You're doing it
for the right reasons, and it's important to do this,
so I'm going to go and do it. But it's
definitely it does weigh on you while you're doing it,
and after.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Well, it's certainly weighs less when you have viewers and
listeners that help carry that weight, you know. Oh, and
so we're just we're so lucky with this. It couldn't
happen here. Community that everyone is all hands on deck,
and people have jumped in and they're telling their friends
to listen or to get involved. I see the petitions
being passed around, I see the tags on social media.
(29:16):
So we're just really really grateful to everyone who has
come a board because it also helps us as filmmakers
feel like we're not alone, you know. I mean, if
we're the ones that are listening to the lawyers and
the victims and the law enforcement and the communities, you guys,
being the person to kind of be our sounding board
is incredibly helpful.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Christian Griggs is one of the ones. And I've done
a lot of cases in Christian Griggs because in some
cases we've seen some change happen. We've seen catharsists from
various members. We've seen positive Maybe they're not gonna get
the end result they want, but there's positive forward motion
because of what we're doing, and maybe there is and
(29:59):
will be with Christian. But that one is something that
just slays me, and the injustice of that case is
very hard for me.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
For you guys at home, you know, the woodch Of
case is horrific in its own way. And now we're
pivoting halfway through our season and we're going to begin
to cover the Christian Griggs case that Poe is talking about,
and got this case as one that stuck with us,
and for me, it's one where I just can't live
with this outcome. You know, I don't want to say
that I'm looking forward to sharing this with our listeners,
(30:31):
but if you guys have friends that are not listening
to the show, please please tell them to jump aboard
because we need all hands on deck with this one. Dan,
do you want to add anything to me?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Tyron Noling's case really really affects me because he is
currently on death row for a murder and you know,
the only thing that they used to convict this guy
on was the testimony of his friends who have all
come forward and said that was a lot.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
He did not do this, and there's nothing else keeping
him there.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
But the state is trying to execute him, and he's
sitting there fighting. You know, he's continuing to fight, and
I still talk to him. We talk on the phone,
and you know, I say to him like, I don't
know how you stay so positive, and we have a
conversation and he seems like he's, you know, working through
things and trying to say okay, I'm going to do this,
(31:28):
and this is going to happen, and I'm talking to
my people here, and you know, he's just continuing to
push forward. And I asked him, like, I'm just you know,
I can't imagine how you're able to do this. He's like,
I don't have a choice. He just tells me, I
don't have a choice. This is what am I going
to do?
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Just die?
Speaker 2 (31:41):
You know, I'm just gonna you know. So I think
about Tyrone a lot. I think that he's somebody whose
life is on the line right now, so it's urgent.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
That slays me too. And the empathy that he has
towards his friends who testified against him, because he understands
they were victims and they are traumatized, like they're with
the trauma of what they did, and he is so
forgiving his empathy, his ability to forgive them. When I
get mad, sometimes I think of him and I'm like,
(32:12):
how can any of us be pissed off about something
that somebody did when that man has that level of
such grace.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
I think the cases we've covered in the TV show,
if you haven't seen it, obviously, we encourage you to
go watch that on Sundance. I am appreciative of everyone
who's been listening to this podcast and will continue to
dig deeper and deeper into these cases that we've brought
to you on the TV show. And we love your
questions because they are so thoughtful and it means that
(32:40):
you guys are paying attention and you're engaged, and that
really means everything to me. So please continue to send
your questions in, keep following these stories, and keep making noise,
and join us next week as we begin to explore
the Christian Griggs case. That's it for this week's episode
of True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here, but be
(33:02):
sure to join us next week. We'll be right here
digging into our next case, which takes place in Anger,
North Carolina.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
It's not a murder mystery. It's not a who done it?
Speaker 3 (33:13):
We know who done it, you know when it happened,
where it happened, who did it, and who the victim is?
Right off the.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Bat, It's a why did this shooting happen?
Speaker 1 (33:21):
And how on how? Join us next week as we
continue to roll up our sleeves and dig in. Thank
you so much for joining us. If you haven't watched
Sundance TVs True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here. You
can catch all of our episodes streaming on AMC Plus.
For more information about this and other cases we've covered,
(33:43):
follow at ice HH stories on Instagram. True Crime Story
It Couldn't Happen Here was produced by Mischief Farm in
association with Bungalow Media and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions, and
Figdonia in partnership with Sundance TV. Executive producers are me
(34:04):
Hillary Burton, Morgan Liz Decessory, Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and
Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie Robinson Katz and Libby Siegel.
Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton, with original music by
Philip Radiotis. We want to say a special thank you
to everyone who participated, but especially the family's impacted by
(34:27):
our cases.
Hi, guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Last episode, we finished our exploration of
the Brandon Woodroof case, and we also shared some resources
(00:23):
for those of you who would like to support Brandon
in his search for freedom. On this episode, we will
be answering some of the questions you had, not only
in Brandon's story, but in our process as well. I'm
Hillary Burton Morgan and this is true crime story. It
couldn't happen here. Hi, you guys, we have a very
(00:58):
special episode of a didn't happen here for you. This
is you know, this is like our mid season break.
It's our intermission. And so I am joined by Poe
Hutcheons and Dan Flaherty, who you guys know and love,
and our dear Andrew is off filming right now. He's
trapesing around the country being a DP and probably being grumpy.
That's Andrew. Now that our listeners are becoming more familiar
(01:21):
with the way that we tell these stories, we have
all whole slew of questions that they've sent to us.
I've gotten to interact with the fan base a little
bit because I've done Instagram lives after our episodes have
aired or during our episodes airing, Dan, I could never
find you on Instagram, but I know that you witnessed
a couple of the Instagram lives. Do you have a
(01:43):
secret like burner account? Am I blowing up your spot
right now?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I don't know. I'm not on Instagram at all. I
was able to sort of tap in and watch your
Instagram live during the episodes, but yeah, I don't have
my own account.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
It was interesting to see people's questions in real time
while our episodes air. And it's crazy because we get
so deep in it that sometimes we can't see the
forest for the trees. We're like, but the trees, the trees.
And then when you take a step back and you
just really listen to the audience, their questions can be,
I don't know, surprising. Sometimes, have you guys been caught
(02:18):
off guard by any questions that you've gotten doing this
kind of work, this true crime journalism?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Sometimes Yeah, I like how you handle it, though it's
really I'm glad it's you and not us. I mean,
you know, I talk about what we do all the
time and cases and I get definitely in the weeds
in the trees. But I love the way you are
so steady on your feet in like quick response and
it's fun to see.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
I thought your Instagram live during the broadcast of the
West Virginia episode was particularly interesting and great and wonderful
because Jason Lively and Billy Lively we're both there watching
live and commenting, and Andrew George, the attorney in the story,
was on and you guys were able to loop him in,
(03:04):
so he was on live with you. And that was just,
I think, an unplanned, really situation and it just turned
into something really really special, all right.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
For those of you at home who didn't watch that
particular episode, that's our West Virginia episode. And Jason Lively
was a young man who was convicted of arson and
murder when it turns out there was no arson at all.
It was just a random house fire. It was like
an electrical fire, totally accidental, and so he went to
(03:35):
prison for nothing. Jason was exonerated in twenty twenty, but
he's still waiting for fair compensation for his wrongful imprisonment
by the State of West Virginia. So there is a
GoFundMe you can visit and donate too if you want
to support Jason in his life after prison, and that's
LinkedIn our Instagram. But I was very grateful to Andrew
(03:57):
George in that moment because he had all the infra,
he carried the conversation. He was so personable and engaging,
and I feel like our audience really responded very well
to him. And the other thing that made a huge
difference is that Jason himself was on the Instagram live
feed just like say and thank you to every person
(04:19):
that was voicing support. So you know, it's rare that
you engage with the subject of a true crime documentary
in that fashion.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
It's incredible, you know when the best and most rewarding
thing that Dan and I have ever had and you've
had now is the way that it opens people up,
like it is a healing thing to tell their story,
for us to bear witness, for them to see their
story out and people to interact. And then this is
an extra step and here he is with a giant
audience with you, champion. So it doesn't surprise me like
(04:51):
he's hearing people.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Caring, and then you know, we get to give some
candid opinions that we don't necessarily get to put in
the actual episode. That kind of live interaction really allows
a lot of freedom for I don't know, bouncing ideas
off each other. And so we have a number of
questions that have come in that have either come in
(05:13):
via Instagram or emails. Some are specific about the case
that we've covered this first half of the season, the
Brandon Woodruff case. Some are a little bit more general,
and so I'm just going to jump into these with
you guys. One of the questions is how do you
keep impartial when you are meeting or speaking to people
(05:35):
believed to be guilty? And maybe that those are people
who are believed to be guilty by the community, and
maybe we doubt that, or maybe it's the people who
we think actually did commit these crimes.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
I always take the position that I don't really know
what happened. I wasn't there. When you know, if we're
talking about somebody who is possibly guilty and who people
believe is guilty, But we look at the facts, we
look at the evidence, we look at what was used
at the trial to convict this person, and that's what
we talk about. We talk about the questions that arise,
(06:11):
and I feel like that's not my position to judge
or to come up with the final answer on that.
So when I'm talking to someone, I'm just talking to
them as a person and talking to them about the situation,
and not as a guilty person or an innocent person.
I'm just trying to talk to them as a person.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Well, it's keeping an open mind. I mean, that's why
I'm so grateful for this team, because we can gain
things out together and really not be afraid to really
just dig in and put different ideas forward and look
at evidence and look at the different sides and facets
of that piece of information and really say, what do
we think this means?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
What could it mean?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
And keep that open mind because we believe that there's
a greater good of not just digging in because you
have to be right, but really trying to find out answers.
And it's sometimes in the gray area.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Often when we're talking to somebody, we will have an
opinion about if we think somebody is guilty or innocent,
And you know, I certainly have felt somebody is wrongfully convicted.
Who's sitting in prison and have just really believed that
they are truly innocent. But you know, I have to
be objective in asking the questions, and I'll ask questions
that I wouldn't necessarily want to ask, but I know
(07:23):
need to be asked because we need to let them
have the answers. You have to sort of set aside
your emotion and really just sort of say, Okay, we
need to talk about this situation. We need to ask
these questions, and you set that aside.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
You're so good at that, though, Dan, I mean, like
you're not afraid to just ask a person who's incarcerated,
did you do it? You know? I mean why does
it look like you did it? And you ask them
those hard questions because the only way we're going to
get at that nugget of truth is if we just
address the elephant in the room.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Well, because you're not asking it in an accusaway. You're
basically saying this question needs to be asked and giving
you the opportunity to talk, you know, And it's not
like I'm accusing you. I'm saying did you do this?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
But also why should we believe you? Especially if there's
circumstances like oh, you lied about these things, Okay, so
why should we believe you? Now? It is all about
the attitude. It's the trust that you build up, it's
the empathy that you lead with. But it goes the
other way. It also goes for law enforcement because there
are plenty of people who we've interviewed where we feel
(08:30):
that they have a bias. And that doesn't mean that
we are going in there for agatchya. I don't think
that that's in any way, shape or form how our
team functions, right, But you know, sometimes it's shocking they
reveal themselves in certain ways, their bias, their misogyny, their
you know, homophobia, whatever it is, again and again. But
it doesn't mean that you're going to disrespect that person,
(08:51):
because you know, you have to give this base communicative
respect to another person that you're interviewing.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Well, you just you mentioned homophobia. And so let's answer
or some specific questions about the Brandon woodriff case, because
this was one that haunted me. You know, I just
think so much went wrong in this situation. But also
we're watching it compound right now with legislation being currently
passed in Texas that is just going to make it
(09:18):
worse and worse and worse for the LGBTQIA plus community.
There were a lot of people that just had questions
based in outrage because they couldn't believe that this was happening.
One of the things was about the jury pool. They're like,
how in the world were eight out of twelve jurors
allowed to stay seated on the jury after expressing their
views about homosexuality? Like, how in the world did they
(09:42):
not get dismissed? Why wasn't there a change of venue.
You know that outrage is very real, but I don't
know how to rectify it.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I mean, in that case, there was only a certain
number of challenges that could be made by either side.
A venue change is I think often a great idea,
but it really does have to be within the state.
I mean, if you're in the state of Texas, where
you're going to go, and you have to have really
good reason for it, and it's hard to get and
it's a hardship for the representing attorneys in the DA
(10:12):
because it means that they have to travel. I mean,
there's many many things that are costly and will take
more time in those kinds of cases. But it is
insane to me that somebody states that who you are,
who you being presented as is a crime in the
most fundamental way in their belief system. And yet they say,
but I can be unbiased, But how can you be
(10:32):
if you believe that? And that's a huge problem over
and over again in cases.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So one of the other questions about this specific case,
and I don't know the answer to this necessarily, is
was Brandon's sister, Charla ever looked at as a suspect.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
We don't see her as a listed suspect on any
of the documents, and from what we can see, we
don't see that she was considered a suspect. We do
see law enforcement say we want to talk to both
of these kids, and we want to find out what
they were doing that night, And certainly they did ask
the questions of where were you, what were you doing?
(11:22):
And she did tell law enforcement where she was at
the time of the murders, and they seem to have
ruled her out. So we don't see that she was
ever really considered a suspect.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
I think what drew all of us to this case
where our questions on how the investigation was conducted, you know,
I mean to this day. I still do not understand
why law enforcement didn't pump the brakes and re examine
all their leads after learning that Brandon saying he hated
his parents on MySpace wasn't real, you know, or that
(11:53):
untested hair, enormous hand, you know, those things still really
bother me.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
I mean, definitely there's some weird We wouldn't be doing
it if it wasn't messy and inconclusive and if there
weren't glaring issues. But why were these things pursued? And
why were they allowed to proceed with certain perspectives and
vocally in this case say things like, well, he's gay
and he's hiding it, so what else is he hiding?
Following really glaringly inconsistent and incorrect leads even after they
(12:26):
knew that there was problems with them because of a bias.
So that's like this case. And I love that we
have such a range of cases. What I love about
what we do is that there's a range of things.
There's people who we know didn't do it because there's
just absolute proof, and there's people who were, like, we
have no idea if they did it or didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
It's important, well, because injustice comes in so many different colors,
It comes in so many different shapes, you know, And
the more versions of injustice our show can illustrate for
people at home, probably the more open minded they'll be.
The voting booth, right, because all of this does come
down to local elections. We just had local elections and
(13:05):
I was trying to get everyone I knew to get
out and vote, because the district attorneys that we deal with,
the sheriffs that we deal with, the judges that we
deal with, everything is affected by local elections. And in
this case, in the brandon WOODRIF case, you know, we're
finally at a point where a lot of the people
who were engaged with this case are either cycling out
(13:29):
because they're retiring, or new people have won elections, and
so it's not all the same faces that were involved
when he was first convicted. And that's a good space
for someone to be in when there's fresh eyeballs. So
one of the questions we have here is what are
the most helpful things that we as viewers can do
(13:51):
to participate.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
I think the first thing is to get informed. I
feel like we dig into these cases and there's a
lot of material out there, information we're able to find
out on these cases, and there's only so much we
could present in our forty two minute episodes, you know,
but there's a lot more information out there, and I
always encourage people to dig in further, do more research,
(14:14):
listen to other podcasts. Even there's other people who have
done some of the same stories we've done, but I've
done it in a forum where they're able to sort
of put more information up there, you know, a website
with links to source documents like a potential wrongful conviction story,
where they will have their own website or their supporters
will have their own website and will put up documentation
(14:35):
of why they believe this person is innocent, and those
are super helpful, and I feel like people doing their
own research and doing their own digging is really the
first step. And then there's often on those websites indications
of what they can do, you know, I mean, either
directly help either signing a petition or writing letters that
kind of stuff, or indirectly, like you said, is to
encourage people to vote for feeling that the person who
(14:57):
prosecuted the case has some issues, then vote out of
that prosecutor.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
You know, well, and I will say that the noisier
people are about things that don't sit right with them,
the better. And so just as like an example, the
Nikki Yatomando case here in Dutchess County where I live
in New York was the catalyst for this TV show.
I've talked about her over and over again. She was
(15:22):
a young mother who was being horrifically abused by her partner.
He brought a gun into the equation and she ended
up shooting him with this gun. And she was given
a very aggressive sentence by the judge, and he said
some things to her that no victim of domestic violence
(15:43):
should ever ever hear, especially not from an elected official.
And so I was horrified that this judge ran in
the same circles that I ran in, and I found
out that he was going to be running for a
higher office in our community. And there was a lot
of outrage from Nicky's supporters and all of these people
(16:07):
that knew and injustice had happened. They went to the
internet forums, they went to the political websites, they went
to the news, they went everywhere to voice their displeasure.
And he lost the nomination. He didn't even run in
the election. He should not be in charge of families
in my community and so be noisy, like that can
(16:27):
pay off in this way. You know, it just happened here,
So I encourage other people. If someone's not doing their
job correctly, say something about it.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, And I mean in our episode with Christine Chetty,
who went missing and was later found murdered, her mom
Lynn worked tirelessly to get to the truth of what
happened to her daughter. And when the law enforcement agent
who really sort of wasn't helpful and during that investigation,
decided to run for sheriff, she campaigned against him and
(16:59):
was successful in keeping him from taking office. You know,
it's people like that who just take it upon themselves
to really try to make change.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, making change, Like if you can't get justice, making
change seems like a pretty good consolation prize.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
You know.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
It's like nothing is ever going to bring back the
person you lost or the situation that went sideways. You
cannot undo history. But making change is a valuable place
to put our energy, and that's really what we encourage
our audience to do.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
It's the only solace that some of these people have.
I mean, you see it with gun violence in the
United states, and how often the families become these massive advocates.
You see it with missing persons in the case of
Christine Chetty and Lynn and others, where the only way
they can survive it is if they fight for change
and for other families not to be subject to what
(17:50):
they were.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
So in terms of trying to make the change, in
terms of like trying to be noisy, one of the
questions we got is what can we do to get
these cases actually covered by more journalists. I think we're
all struggling with like local newspapers dying. Who's going to
cover a rural story not the New York Times, you know,
(18:12):
So how do we get more of these small town
stories covered.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
I feel like in several of our cases, when there
have been journalists who have covered those stories, it's really
inspiring to see in many of our stories. In the
Christian Griggs story, I feel like the journalists who took
on that case and really did in depth story I
did the right thing.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
And so that's really dig in for sure.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Dan, You know, I think the Christian Griggs case, we
know that's the next case that we're going to be
diving into, and it is one that has really stuck
with all of us and for you guys at home
in a nutshell, the case is about a young black
man who was shot and killed in broad daylight at
his father in law's house, and his father in law,
(19:00):
patchisen Hall, claimed self defense. But the more you peel
back the layers in this case and you start asking questions,
the more it doesn't make sense. So you're right. These
two young journalists from WRAL, the local station in Andrew,
North Carolina, they took a look at this story and
they said, huh, something doesn't feel quite right. And sometimes
(19:22):
I feel like it's young journalists right. They're the ones
who aren't necessarily jaded by the business. Yet they're the
ones that are willing to go out on a limb.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I mean, you touch on something that's just really crucial
for law, for justice, for democracy, for everything, for fairness
and justice. Especially journalism is key. And the death moll
that's happening across the country with not supporting local journalists.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Local reporting is so so, so so important. You guys,
you hear us talking about all these different cases, I
don't know. Sometimes for me, I get really scared that
they're all going to start to flow into one thought pattern,
(20:09):
or that they'll get confused with each other, because to me,
each case and each family and each victim, like they're
so important and I want to give as much of
myself to them as possible. How do you compartmentalize all
of these stories? I mean, you've been doing it so
much longer than I have. How do you hold these
things with the respect that I know that you do?
(20:32):
Or at a certain point, are you like I have
to put this out of my head.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I can't put them out of my head. I mean
you draw from them as you go forward. But in
a way, it's bearing witness, right, It's like I'm driven
as you are, and we all are to try to
make a difference. Sometimes it's revelatory. Sometimes it's actually finding
out the truth or finding the murderer and a cold case,
or you know, various things. Sometimes it's just about how
(20:56):
it was reported or how it was investigated as the problem.
So we all do that for a purpose, and then
we're kind of bearing witness and it feels like it's
our responsibility. But I don't ever forget any of them,
and I guess in a good way because that's what
helps us build and understand each case that comes up
as we roll forward is that we have a better
and better grasp of all the different kind of facets
and we can pull from them and say, oh, oh,
(21:17):
that reminds me of this, and so this line of
inquiry or that way, that angle or facet of exploring
this case, we can pull from that experience. But also, yeah,
I mean it's haunting.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I think when you're talking about you know, we're doing
many episodes at once. Really we're growing right from one
to the other, and to sort of how to keep
that sort of to pay attention to each one. For me,
I actually really have a hard time sort of multitasking
on stories. Like we're getting ready to shoot next week,
and that's all I'm thinking about right now. I'm like,
(21:49):
I have to think about the story that we're going
to be telling and the people that we're going to
be filming with, and you know, I'm digging through and
thinking about what we need to ask and what we
need to say and how we're going to say it
and how we're going to present it. And that's what
I'm thinking about, and it's very hard for me. You know,
I'll have to watch a rough cut of another episode
at some point, but it takes me a long time
(22:10):
to get out of one head and then to the
other one, and it's I'm not that fast. So other
people are good at switching gears maybe, and I'm just like,
i can't watch that rough cut right now because I'm
thinking about this other case and I have to take
the time clear my head and go into it and
then come back again. It just it takes me a
(22:31):
while to sort of switch back and forth because it
just it.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
Does fill up all of my headspace. You know.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
It makes me feel like I'm cheating on the other
group of people when my attention is divided that way,
Like I'm not doing a good enough job for the
people who need my attention, like in this moment. And so,
whether that's when we're physically filming the episodes or when
they're airing, and I'm the one that's like the forward
(22:56):
facing promotion machine for these stories, I cannot be looking
at anything else because they need undivided attention and they
deserve undivided attention. And that has been really difficult for
me over the last couple of years, like feeling like
I need to be promoting this one while we're in
the midst of shooting this one, and that's just a
(23:19):
I don't know if that's a skill I'm going to learn.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
No, you shouldn't learn it. I mean that's I meant
cumulatively over time in our life spans of working, which
is what I understood your question to be. We don't
like doing episodic. We did it because that was your show.
And it was like, there was a list of reasons
why myself and this team wouldn't do this show until
after we talked to and the reasons of you and
the purpose and the bigger picture took over and we
(23:43):
just couldn't resist. But mainly, the reason the deep dive
happens and the reason we're doing these podcasts is because
they deserve that attention and that deep dive.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
We could not stand the fact that there were things
left on the cutting room floor. You know, that was
making me crazy because there's this avalanche of information and
in my head, I'm like, if we can just get
it to people, you know, they'll see it, they'll be
able to make a difference. And so this Brandon Woodrof case,
you know, he has a support group that has done
(24:12):
a significant amount of work organizing and putting out information
about his case. And so it really does just come
down to numbers and trying to get as many eyeballs
as possible on this information or as many listeners as
possible so that people can get involved. They can reach
out to advocacy groups, they can reach out to elected officials,
(24:36):
they can go and ask how they can get involved.
From brand and support team, I would say the one
thing that has really helped is watching families from one
case reach out to families from another case and offer
support and collaboration. You know, that's blown my mind. It
just it has absolutely blown my mind, you know. And
(24:58):
this is a long term relationship. So for you guys,
how important is it for you to stay in touch
with some of these people we've interacted with? You know,
I know that you guys have formed like healthy communications
with a lot of these families.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
Not just the families, the lawyers as well, and sometimes
the cops. I mean we had, you know, a lieutenant
who was in charge of a case was a missing
person's case. He bucked the norm and paid attention to
somebody who was being and would have been ignored because
she was a sex worker. And there were reasons that
they were ignoring her disappearance, even though her family was
(25:36):
adamant that it was not normal, and he wouldn't let
that go, and he pursued it and listened to the
family and was able to solve this case, which wouldn't
have been solved if they didn't move as quickly as
they moved because of him listening to the family and
following through. And we found out later she came up
to you, Hillary and said, the daughter of this lieutenant
(26:00):
in charge came up and said that it had been
so healing for him, and that his trauma was healed
by being heard about the issues of having to combat
that kind of bias within law enforcement when he felt
their purpose was to serve these people and he was
being rebuffed and pushed back, and it healed the relationship
(26:20):
he had with his daughter. And he had died shortly thereafter.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Right, Yeah, just recently, when I was on my book tour,
the daughter of this lieutenant came up and said, my
dad passed away and we were with him. It doesn't
feel like that long ago. He passed away, and she
had always had a difficult relationship with him because he
was not forthcoming about his career and about his experience
(26:47):
in law enforcement, and he really had kind of bottled
it up, and after he sat down with our team,
he went to her and wanted to talk to her
about it because it was so cathartic, and I didn't
realize that was part of what we were doing. Honestly,
Like in my head, I just wanted to be the
(27:07):
megaphone that got the word out to people, you know,
but talking about this trauma from the law enforcement side,
you know, these people who went into a profession thinking
they were going to do good for their communities and
instead witnessed some pretty heinous stuff. You know, I didn't
think about that part of it, and that was new
(27:29):
to me. So I am so so grateful that I
ran into that lieutenant's daughter and that she took the
time to tell us that because he was wonderful. You know,
he was a wonderful man.
Speaker 3 (27:41):
So it's families of victims, it's people who are wrongfully
accused convicted in their families, and it's also law enforcement
that's trying to do the right thing and meeting often
very hard walls stopping them. It's lawyers, you know, who
are fighting for people and feeling like they're drowning because
they can't make the world see what's wrong with the case.
(28:04):
And it's sometimes people who admit that they were wrong,
prosecutors who admit that they were wrong.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Have you guys ever had a case that just completely
upended your world? You know, it's really hard not to
bring this stuff home a lot of them.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, you think about them all the time. You know,
there's several cases where they stay inside you and you
think about them, and you think about the people who
you got to know and the people who were affected
by these things that have happened. And yeah, it is hard,
you know, And there's definitely times where you know, I'm like,
I can't keep doing it. It's a lot, it's a
(28:42):
lot to think about all the time. You're doing it
for the right reasons, and it's important to do this,
so I'm going to go and do it. But it's
definitely it does weigh on you while you're doing it,
and after.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Well, it's certainly weighs less when you have viewers and
listeners that help carry that weight, you know. Oh, and
so we're just we're so lucky with this. It couldn't
happen here. Community that everyone is all hands on deck,
and people have jumped in and they're telling their friends
to listen or to get involved. I see the petitions
being passed around, I see the tags on social media.
(29:16):
So we're just really really grateful to everyone who has
come a board because it also helps us as filmmakers
feel like we're not alone, you know. I mean, if
we're the ones that are listening to the lawyers and
the victims and the law enforcement and the communities, you guys,
being the person to kind of be our sounding board
is incredibly helpful.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Christian Griggs is one of the ones. And I've done
a lot of cases in Christian Griggs because in some
cases we've seen some change happen. We've seen catharsists from
various members. We've seen positive Maybe they're not gonna get
the end result they want, but there's positive forward motion
because of what we're doing, and maybe there is and
(29:59):
will be with Christian. But that one is something that
just slays me, and the injustice of that case is
very hard for me.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
For you guys at home, you know, the woodch Of
case is horrific in its own way. And now we're
pivoting halfway through our season and we're going to begin
to cover the Christian Griggs case that Poe is talking about,
and got this case as one that stuck with us,
and for me, it's one where I just can't live
with this outcome. You know, I don't want to say
that I'm looking forward to sharing this with our listeners,
(30:31):
but if you guys have friends that are not listening
to the show, please please tell them to jump aboard
because we need all hands on deck with this one. Dan,
do you want to add anything to me?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Tyron Noling's case really really affects me because he is
currently on death row for a murder and you know,
the only thing that they used to convict this guy
on was the testimony of his friends who have all
come forward and said that was a lot.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
He did not do this, and there's nothing else keeping
him there.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
But the state is trying to execute him, and he's
sitting there fighting. You know, he's continuing to fight, and
I still talk to him. We talk on the phone,
and you know, I say to him like, I don't
know how you stay so positive, and we have a
conversation and he seems like he's, you know, working through
things and trying to say okay, I'm going to do this,
(31:28):
and this is going to happen, and I'm talking to
my people here, and you know, he's just continuing to
push forward. And I asked him, like, I'm just you know,
I can't imagine how you're able to do this. He's like,
I don't have a choice. He just tells me, I
don't have a choice. This is what am I going
to do?
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Just die?
Speaker 2 (31:41):
You know, I'm just gonna you know. So I think
about Tyrone a lot. I think that he's somebody whose
life is on the line right now, so it's urgent.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
That slays me too. And the empathy that he has
towards his friends who testified against him, because he understands
they were victims and they are traumatized, like they're with
the trauma of what they did, and he is so
forgiving his empathy, his ability to forgive them. When I
get mad, sometimes I think of him and I'm like,
(32:12):
how can any of us be pissed off about something
that somebody did when that man has that level of
such grace.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
I think the cases we've covered in the TV show,
if you haven't seen it, obviously, we encourage you to
go watch that on Sundance. I am appreciative of everyone
who's been listening to this podcast and will continue to
dig deeper and deeper into these cases that we've brought
to you on the TV show. And we love your
questions because they are so thoughtful and it means that
(32:40):
you guys are paying attention and you're engaged, and that
really means everything to me. So please continue to send
your questions in, keep following these stories, and keep making noise,
and join us next week as we begin to explore
the Christian Griggs case. That's it for this week's episode
of True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here, but be
(33:02):
sure to join us next week. We'll be right here
digging into our next case, which takes place in Anger,
North Carolina.
Speaker 4 (33:11):
It's not a murder mystery. It's not a who done it?
Speaker 3 (33:13):
We know who done it, you know when it happened,
where it happened, who did it, and who the victim is?
Right off the.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Bat, It's a why did this shooting happen?
Speaker 1 (33:21):
And how on how? Join us next week as we
continue to roll up our sleeves and dig in. Thank
you so much for joining us. If you haven't watched
Sundance TVs True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here. You
can catch all of our episodes streaming on AMC Plus.
For more information about this and other cases we've covered,
(33:43):
follow at ice HH stories on Instagram. True Crime Story
It Couldn't Happen Here was produced by Mischief Farm in
association with Bungalow Media and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions, and
Figdonia in partnership with Sundance TV. Executive producers are me
(34:04):
Hillary Burton, Morgan Liz Decessory, Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and
Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie Robinson Katz and Libby Siegel.
Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton, with original music by
Philip Radiotis. We want to say a special thank you
to everyone who participated, but especially the family's impacted by
(34:27):
our cases.
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