January 2, 2024 • 31 mins
Just outside Raleigh is the quaint, country town of Angier, North Carolina. It’s here, where a young man named Christian Griggs is shot in broad daylight by his father-in-law, Pat Chisenhall, who immediately claims self-defense. Hilarie, Dan, Po and Andrew begin to unpack this case - and ask the question, what led to this tragedy? There is a lot about this story that bothers our team - tune in, follow along, and let us know your thoughts.
For more information about this and other cases we've covered, follow @ICHHstories on Instagram.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Andrew, North Carolina sits just outside of Raleigh.
(00:20):
It's a quaint town with a mix of commuters rushing
off to their jobs, young families raising their kids, and
that nostalgic country lifestyle. But on October twelfth, twenty thirteen,
tragedy strikes. A young man is shot and killed by
his father in law in broad daylight, and it leads
(00:43):
us to wonder what happened that day and how did
it end in death. Last episode, we answered some of
your mid season questions, and on this episode we will
begin our exploration into the Christian Griggs story in Angrew,
North Carolina. I'm Hillary Burton Morgan and this is true
(01:03):
crime story. It couldn't happen here. Welcome to another episode.
We are back at it examining a brand new case
this week. I'm here with Dan Poe and Andrew. You
know this case that we are going to cover, this
(01:25):
is one of the ones that really keeps me up
at night. You know, I watched it again this morning
just to get ready to record, and I cried. You know,
I cry every single time I watch this episode. So
let's get into it. It is our Andrew North Carolina
episode focusing on the death of Christian Griggs. Now, for
those of you who have not seen it, Christian Griggs
(01:46):
was a young black man who was shot six times
by his white father in law, Pat Chisenhall. A Pat
claims self defense and he invoked the Castle doctrine, which
is a law that basically grants a person and the
right to use deadly force to protect themselves and their property.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
A lot of the stories that we cover are obvious
that there's been a murder, and in this case, there's
a shooting and a death homicide, but it's unclear from
law enforcements point of view, if this was a murder
or not, if this was a self defense homicide, or
if it was an intentional murder. And I think that
most of the stories that we cover where it's a
(02:25):
question of whether it was murder or suicide, and I
think this is the only case where we know who
did the shooting, but we don't know what the circumstances
were surrounding that, and that's what we sort of pieced together, right, you.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Know, when it happened, where it happened, who did it,
and who the victim is right off the bat, and.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So what's the struggle with that? I mean, Normally, in
the structure of our TV show, we don't find out
who the real killer is until maybe the third act,
fourth act, sometimes the second act. But from the jump
on this episode, we know exactly who pulled the true.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
It's not a murder mystery. It's not a who done it?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
We know who done it, and it's not a wrongful
conviction either. There is a mystery in our minds, but
there certainly wasn't a mystery to the police.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Apparently, it's a why did this shooting happen?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And how and how? Let's talk about how we were
introduced to this story.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Luckily, the show garnered enough interest and people watched it
that we started getting calls and dms and emails about
cases that people thought we should look into. It was
like the most welcome thing in the world, because people
coming and saying, there's a case I know in my town.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
That's how you had the idea for the show.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, I mean it really is. Just as a reminder,
the case that sort of instigated our TV show was
the Nikki Atamando case here in upstate New York. Someone
came to me in my town and they said, Okay, Hillary,
there's a problem with the way this case is being covered.
There's a problem with the way the judge is speaking
to this young woman in our town. And yeah, I agreed.
So I went to AMC and Sundance and I said, hey,
(03:59):
can we start addressing some of these problems. And so
Christian's case and hearing about it through a DM through
his eighth grade school teacher, Nicole Norton, it just felt
very similar to the way I initially heard about Nicky's case.
It was someone who knew the parties and was concerned
that justice had not been properly served.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
She had watched the first season, yes, and that's what
made her say, I think they need to look at this.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
On September thirtieth of twenty twenty one, Nicole Norton wrote
to me, the story of Christian Griggs is worth looking into.
He was my former student in North Carolina, shot and
killed by his father in law. His father in law
was a white pastor and that's it. She'd sent this
to me via Instagram and my DMS. And the fact
(04:44):
that a former community member reached out about one of
her students. You can't find something more small town than that.
You know, she'd moved on in her life and was
still haunted that, Oh, I've lost this kid who I
knew in a tender age.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
And loved in it. My thought he was great, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Knew his family in the community for sure.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
When we talked to Nicole and to hear her describe
Christian as just so much potential, just a kid who
was bright and eager and everybody loved, and she just like,
this is one of the kids that's really going to
go somewhere, who's really going to do something with this life.
Speaker 6 (05:21):
Christian Griggs was a student of mine. I'm an eighth
grade math teacher and in I can't remember now what
year it was, but he was in my class and
he was one of those students that just always stands
out big, bright, smile, athletic, intelligent, from a good family,
just really going places. And unfortunately I learned after I
(05:44):
had moved to Virginia that he had been killed. And
it's just a story that I can't get out of
my mind because that doesn't match the kid that I.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Knew right and that he wasn't a rule breaker, that
he was really polite, and that he was really like
a team player.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
And she's a white teacher.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
It's somebody from the white community saying, actually, I think
that there's big issues and racism plays apart.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
We went down to Andrew, North Carolina for this. We
flew into Raleigh. You know, I lived in Wilmington, North
Carolina for the better part of a decade, and would
spend so much time in Raleigh because that's where my
childhood best friend lived. It was hard for me to
cover this case because when you love a place the
way I love parts of North Carolina, you expect good behavior,
(06:30):
You expect them to be kind to one another, You
expect there not to be corruption. And as we dug
into this case, we had to deal with the very
real current corruption and past corruption. So when you look
at Harnett County, where Andrew's located, it sits right next
(06:51):
door to Johnston County, which has been described as Clan country.
You know, this is a place where KKK billboard were
erected in the late nineteen sixties and we're up for
a full decade, and so there's photographic evidence on the internet,
and it certainly still lives in the memory of a
(07:11):
lot of the residents there. Were you aware of that
when we went down there, we.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Became aware of it. I mean, once we looked at
this case and decided this was the story that we
were going to tell, we looked into the history of
the area and.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Then the existing political tensions.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
I mean, that is shocking to me.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
In the nineteen sixties, during the civil rights demonstrations, the
dormant klu Klux Klan once again began gaining momentum. Bob
Jones was the most influential grand Jagon in the county,
and in just three years he grew the North Carolina
Clan from a handful of friends to ten thousand members.
This is in the sixties. This isn't a long time ago.
(07:52):
And so for Christian Griggs family, they are one of
the few black families in this community. Raleigh is certainly
more diverse, but then when you leave that city center
area and you get out into the more rural setting,
that diversity slowly fades away.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
There's two things. There's the black and white but then
there's also the long term residents in the newcomers. There
are a lot of new people coming into town because
it's not far from the colleges. It's not far from
places where people would move to work, to go to school.
But you get that sense from families who have had
generational have been in the area.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
You cannot put blinders onto that stuff. You just can't.
And so we will be digging into that in later
episodes and how it all plays out in this case.
(08:52):
Let's set up the town a little bit. So Andrew,
North Carolina. What is it like.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
It's a small town that has a really nice little
downtown area with some restaurants and coffee shops, and it's
a really cute downtown, and it's close to some other
larger places of employment, you know, the universities and various
military bases. There's places to work. So it's a nice
town to raise your family in.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Even though it's far from a city, it still has
a slightly more suburban feel than many of the towntowns
that we've been to.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Yea, but either you're in agriculture in Harnett County where
Andrew is, or these new folks that have moved in
in the past twenty years, are looking for a little
slower country life, quiet.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
And their commuters. I mean the Griggs family, they moved
to Andrew, North Carolina to be close to the military base.
They were a military family and Christian themself served. What
stood out to you guys about the little downtown historic
district of Andrew, North Carolina.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
It was really cute. I mean right downtown. We were
looking to talk to people and kind of get a
sense what the town was like from the people who
live there. And we went down this one street where
there was a little coffee shop and we went in
there to talk to the folks who ran the place,
and they were very welcoming and said, yes, you shout
up lunch here too, you know, and you could talk
(10:14):
to any of the customers who come in and out.
And so we went outside. It was a Sunday I think,
and we're outside people were waiting to get in. I mean,
this is a popular place. This is where people go
after church to have Sunday line.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
We watched that church release happen in real time because
when we parked the car and got out, it was
a ghost town. There was like nobody and all of
a sudden, I guess it was noon, and you start
seeing all the cars with the families come in from
all the different four corners, and they're all like trying
to find street parking, and everyone ends up at this spot.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, and it was nice. It was nice to see
that people weren't going off to some big restaurant outside
of town.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
It's a well kept, small downtown. It's on the smaller side, say,
but everything's nice. There's a very nice park there. You know,
there's a lot of local small businesses in terms of restaurants.
There's a town clock for a bank clock.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
There was the train museum. Yeah, that was so cute.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, I think there had been a train stop there.
Of course the train had moved wherever it was now,
but that was a historical museum right there on that square.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
As a matter of fact. You know, normally when I
go into a town for the first time, I'm looking
for all the relevant items. A water tower, the local church,
the love train tracks, love train tracks, good to get
a train, everybody loves chew choose.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Well, it's a good, it's a good a train whizzing
Buy is a nice edit point for you to get
out of one scene into another, and with Hillary, when
she goes to a town, we aren't just standing somewhere
and then she reads copy Hillary is she's a word crafter.
We have points we want to hit. We discuss kind
of how we want to encapsulate the story we're going
to tell and what we're doing there, and then we explore,
(12:01):
and we do it really off the cuff, but we
walk and talk often doing so. So we are filming
Hillary exploring the town and getting her impressions and talking
about the different subject matters and how it all fits
together and what she's seeing. And Andrew will be shooting
this walking backwards, and he often will refuse to have
(12:23):
a spotter, which would be the person who walks behind
him to make sure he doesn't fall over and kill
himself and smash the camera in his.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Head stripping overside, and we're trying really hard, and we're
trying really hard to make him not fall off into
the street and not bang into a pole.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
And then he's getting every angle and we're trying to
stay out of the frame. And Pepper questions to Hillary,
and let Andrew do this without dying.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
If you go to the shoe store with me, I
test all of my shoes walking backwards.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Do you.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Of course you do.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
He loves doing that in the middle of traffic. He's like, no, no,
let's just cross the street with cars, zip and pass.
I'm going to walk backwards and be blind because I
have a camera attached to my face and we're.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Always like Anderson traffic Again, It's like, yeah, but the
background is so great.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
What's your backward walking shoe of choice?
Speaker 4 (13:13):
I have big feet, so every time I go to
buy shoes, my old model of shoe is gone.
Speaker 7 (13:18):
You know.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
We need to get him wheelies so he can just
start to be his own dolly. He feel like real backwards.
Speaker 5 (13:23):
Please don't even suggest yea.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
With the little lights that flys with the kids.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yeah, yeah, that way they can see it coming. Okay. Look,
the walk and talk for me is a two birds,
one stone situation because while we're telling people what the
basis of the case is, we're also letting them see
the town for themselves. You know, we're moving along a
path together, and so rather than tell them everything we're seeing,
(13:48):
it's the show. Don't tell, you know, let them just
experience it with us.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I think you're just great at noticing the little details.
I think in Andrew, we're walking down that sidewalk in
front of the restaurant and there's in the cements of
handprints in the cement, and.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Oh, I forgot about that.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Hillary just walks up. Her hands fit perfectly in these handprints,
and you know, you spent so much time in North Carolina.
You're like, I'm home, I belong here. Hold on, Hillary,
just try to slow.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Keep this distance from me, because I'm.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, just if you notice this sort of distance.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, oh, all these handprints are kind of great, Andrew,
I'll just stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just stop there, Just
go and let's walk and just do that. Yeah. The
cool thing about living in a small town is that
you can like literally leave your mark on the town.
(14:45):
If you're the business, put your hand in the concrete,
hang out for decades. That's cute. It's like little kid hands.
I wonder if they're all grown up now. God, Dan,
I forgot about that.
Speaker 8 (14:59):
You're right.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
It was going home, and so it added a layer
of complexity because it's like you're going back to this
place you love to critique it, and it's like you're
talking about your parents' divorce. It's like God, I love
these people, but I got to talk about something really
messy right now.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
The thing with all the people that we recorded on
camera with, there is clearly a very happy, prideful in
a positive They're very proud of their town. They feel
very open and welcoming. They clearly want to talk about
their town and our friendlyest strangers coming in. There was
a southernness of that kind of southern hospitality feeling.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Absolutely, they were very welcoming and they did have a
lot of pride for the town. I think everybody, Yeah,
it was pretty welcoming.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, let's just hear from some folks and Andrew about
what it's like to live there.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Tell me about that. Tell me what it's like to
live in a town for as long as you.
Speaker 7 (15:46):
Have well, everybody's your friend. You know everybody and you
know what's going on in their life because you're seeing
them every day. And my mother work with my dad
in this grocery store, so it was it was a
family thing and you just learn everybody in town. So
(16:09):
everybody'sh your praying.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
So do you hear, like you know what's going on
with people? The people like tell everybody kind of what's
going on. With everybody else.
Speaker 7 (16:17):
Well, if there's news, everybody knows the news, and especially
if it's something that's out of the ordinary. So yeah,
you pretty know much pretty much what's going on in town,
especially if you leave uptown and if you're in town
all the time.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
So it's your typical small town. I mean, everybody knows
everybody and kind of knows what's going on. I would
also like to point out that they have the Crape
Myrtle Festival. So for those of you who don't know
crape myrtles, they're these like beautiful trees that have fusia
and white flowers all over them and this really cool
bark that's multi colored. And like I've lived in North Carolina,
(16:52):
North Carolinians are proud of their crepe myrtle trees, and
so to be in the Cape Myrtle Capital that thrilling
for us. But let's also talk about some of the
other people we met. I mean, I think one of
our favorites was Reverend Brian. How do we meet him?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
We were right outside of the restaurant and we were
kind of grabbing folks as they came and went. I
don't remember who.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Did someone suggest him to us or was he just
out going?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
He was out on the street. He was out again,
in and out of that restaurant. We interviewed him right
outside the restaurant. There's a little picnic tables and stuff
in the little area, so we sat just outside there
at the picnic table.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Let's go ahead and hear that clip because we do
ask him about his thoughts on race living in the
town of Andrew.
Speaker 9 (17:33):
Oh yeah, but I've been born. I was born and
raged here forty plus years and as a local leader, pastor, singer, musician,
there's a lot of geling here I haven't personally seen,
and it's been quite covert, as it is in most places,
(17:54):
but it is usually if it is exposed, it is
dealt with immunity.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Usually if if.
Speaker 9 (18:01):
Racism or any racial issues are exposed, usually they're handled.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
The faith.
Speaker 9 (18:08):
The leaders come together, meet with other individuals and the
community leaders, and so it's usually handled pretty swiftly. As
a second cousin of George Floyd, they know I'll fight
for any unjustice, any irracial issue, as I did for
him and others. But I haven't seen that in the
last few years. We're even represented in terms of town race.
(18:31):
The leaders elections, it's pretty much civil.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
So as we were talking about earlier, I mean, this
is a case that's definitely about race. You have a
black man who was shot by his white father in law.
But it's also a case about guns and the right
to protect yourself because remember Patches and Hall, Christian's white
father in law. He claims self defense under the Castle
doctrine and the Second Amendment is something that's really important
(18:59):
to a lot of people North Carolina.
Speaker 9 (19:01):
There are rights and if and your question as to
do I feel that it would have been justified. Of
course I have a gun permit. Most people do, particularly now.
If my life is in danger, absolutely, then I must
defend myself. If my family is in danger, my wife Lamika, Absolutely,
somebody's gonna die or be stopped. If you come into
(19:24):
my home unannounced, then I have every right to defend myself.
If I see someone else in danger, absolutely, But if
my only indictment is that is that my color is
not yours, is that my melanin is darker than yours,
then that is not justified ever because that signifies that
(19:46):
that act was done out of hate. But you're supposed
to represent love, but you take it the put in
yourself to be God for a moment. Now you show
me where that's right. You show me what scripture validates that,
and then we have another the conversation.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Reverend Davis tells us here that he is a gun owner.
You know, most people in North Carolina either a gun
owners or supportive of that. It is a second Amendment state.
I used to shoot guns every weekend when I lived
in North Carolina. My dad is a skeet shooter. You know,
that is a normal pastime. Did he bring up guns
or did you bring up guns?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
We did ask everybody who we talked to about guns
and about their thoughts if they had anything pro con whatever,
and most people yeah, like you said, embrace the right
to bear arms for sure.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
We noticed something in town that there was a bit
of visual division. We had signs regarding guns in the town.
What do you remember about that signage, Andrew, Because you're
the one that had to go and shoot all that.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
It's always the same which is guns and firearms are
not permitted in this establishment. And those would be restaurants, bars,
whatever establishment decides to say no guns allowed. And that's
predominantly a sign that you will see in states and
North Carolina is one of them where open carry, which
(21:21):
is the ability to carry a pistol or any firearm
or a rifle on your shoulder on your hip, in
North Carolina it doesn't require a permit.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Well yeah, I mean there were other signs on the
street too that were very much in support of the
use of guns, you know, like, if you come into
my establishment uninvited, we will shoot you first and ask
questions later.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Trespassers will be shot. I mean we were doing a
walk and talk past a building and there was a
big sticker to my left. Trespassers will be shot. And
it's one thing to like see the bumper sticker and
put it up, you know, and have a nice laugh
with your buddies about it. That you would take someone's
(22:03):
life for trespassing. That's horrific. I mean, I don't know
how many people actually just really think about that.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
I mean a lot of people do. They say, if
you're looting, then you deserve to be shot. That's where
property is more valuable than human life. And that's been
a major conversation because you know, how can that be
the rule. Of course, you don't want people marauding around
and stealing and looting and destroying things. But the idea
that property is a shootable, you know.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
And I mean there.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Was a barbershop owner who said, yep, I have Second Amendment.
Speaker 5 (22:36):
I owned a gun.
Speaker 10 (22:39):
Yes, yes, I mean being myself, I'm a conceal a weaponcar.
So I have a gun. I carry a good one
hundred percent of the time. You know, it's just for
a petition, that's all it's for.
Speaker 6 (22:50):
You know.
Speaker 10 (22:51):
I never come across as the one like that, and
I hope I'll never have to come across in the
world to use a gun, you know. I mean I've
read a talk of situation now they'll walk away from
it and then have to pull the gun out and
use it. I have anyone to pull it out and
use it on me. You know, I'd rather do that
than anything else.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So so it's not the first choice.
Speaker 10 (23:12):
Last choice, the use no gun is the last choice
to be you know, a lot of times I think
you should be able to walk away for a situation
than anything else. You know, that's the last thing you
want to do to hurt someone. You get here in
the process or anything in this like that, you'll say
you don't want to get here. Nobody they don't want
nobody to hurt you, but you will protect you and
your family. That's anyone. Anyone gonna do that.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
There's a certain amount of responsible gunnership. Right. Yes, you
have a right to have a gun, and I have
a right to have a gun in my establishment and
defend my property. But we're also going to regulate and
not have everybody come into my place with guns that
they're going to get into argument and shoot each other.
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Right that he wants self regulation, but those are very
often the people who are not into government, right, But it's.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Very much self regulation. I think that it works well.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
What is certain. What is certain North Carolina is that yes,
there's a gun culture. Yes, people value their Second Amendment
right highly and they have laws that allow you to
open carry.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
It is part of the fabric.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
And I guess the big question or where that leads
to is it does have consequences with legislation.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
And yeah, of course second Amendment. We have the right
to defend ourselves. I believe in gun rights, but I
believe in regulation.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
It's a bravado.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
There is a bravado that comes in when you're putting
signs out saying you will be shot.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
And I think there was a second part of that, right,
trespassers will be shot and survivors will be shot again.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Yes, God, that's what it was.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
That's why it was so jarring because it was just
like gross.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
But if you live there, it's normal. And that's a
funny joke.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, it is normalized. We called them wordless signs when
you would put a piece of tin with a whole
bunch of buckshot through it at the end of your
driveway because without saying anything, everyone knew that there was
a gun on that property. And so it's you know,
getting the point across.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I deterrent.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Yes, I think it's safe to say that in this
area of North Carolina that you're going to find more
homes with guns than without.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, And so you know, the gun thing obviously plays
a huge part in this story. It makes you wonder
how differently things might have turned out if there weren't
guns on the premises that day, and if everyone would
have been able to walk away. And unfortunately that's not
what happened. So let's go ahead and get into what
(25:30):
we know happened that day. It's October twelfth, twenty thirteen,
in Andrew, North Carolina, and a nine to one one
call comes in from Christian's wife Katie. Let's play that, sheriff.
Speaker 8 (25:46):
Hi, I need someone at my house. My husband is
in my yard at in crazy threatening make sure my
dad and what's your nine? Tidy Grigg?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
And you said this was your.
Speaker 8 (25:58):
Dad my husband?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
And what's your husband's saying?
Speaker 8 (26:05):
Christian Griggs? And I'm at I live right beside my parents' house,
but I'm at their house, is right beside them? Okay?
Speaker 9 (26:16):
And do you have any weapons on him?
Speaker 8 (26:19):
I don't know?
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Has he threatened you in anyway?
Speaker 8 (26:24):
Yeah? What did he threatening my dad? Has he assaulted you? Not? Today?
Is he drinking or doing drunk? He has? I don't know.
He has warrants out. I went last night. He shut
his ass into What kind of warrants are he was
(26:47):
beating on my door last night to domestic trespassing I
think was what they called it, and damaged to the property.
But he did what's his day to birth? I'm I'll
have to check that, yandhi killing and he is still
this other location? Correct? He is on my front port?
(27:08):
All right, I'll get some money started that one. Thank you,
Thank you?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
So what you just heard is Katie Christian's wife calling
nine one one and telling the dispatcher that she and
her dad, Patchis and Hall are being threatened by Christian,
And we ended up using the nine one one calls
for our cold open, Dan, can you tell us what
a cold open is?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
It's the very beginning of the show before the title
sequence comes up, so it comes on immediately at the
beginning of the show, and the idea is to sort
of get the viewers to have a quick sense of
what this story is going to be about with the
main focus with the crux is something to hook them
in to understand where we're going.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
With it, and it's there to entice you to continue watching.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
Sure, and just set the table for what you're going
to see exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And there's different ways you could do that, right, a
traditional tease of saying here's some small sort of sample
of what the story is more like a trailer, right,
or or actually a scene where we're not explaining to
the audience what it is that they're seeing. We're just
coming right into a scene that an audience would look
at and say, what is this? What's going on here?
And raises a question.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I love a cold open that hooks you in and
sets the table in a way that makes you say, wait,
what's this. You know, you get a few pieces, but
you don't understand the full context of what's being said.
But it's in your head and that's going to be
in your head throughout until you get to that point.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And I think with using the nine one one call,
this is actuality. This is real stuff that happened.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
There's no opinion on this yet, no.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Opinion on this yet. This isn't something that where you're
reading from a transcript. It's not somebody telling us after
the fact. It's in the moment, and that's really powerful.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
It's easy to just be like, oh, nine one one,
there's a murder.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
This one was particular because that is a giant piece
of evidence.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Actually, what's crazy because you hear it right I'm sure
the people who are hearing it from the first time
right now, it seems pretty cut and dry.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Exactly the way we use the nine to moment call
in this is a little bit different because we set
up with it and then we go back to it
and see it from different angles with new information.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
That's different.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
In this case, we know the who, what, when, where,
and how, And the only thing we don't know is why,
and that's the entire crux.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
So the reason this case stands out to me is
because it's the thing I was fighting for with this show.
I said when we pitched the show that there are
two bad guys in every one of our stories. There's
the person who pulled the trigger, and then there is
the system. And if the system is ever to be critiqued,
it is this case. The systemic fuck ups in this
(29:43):
case keep me awake at night.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Hell yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
So we don't need to know who the trigger man is.
We don't need to know who the aggressor is. The
system is the failure. And so that's exactly what we're
going to dive into as we examined the shooting of
Christian Griggs by his father in law, patchisen Hall. How
the system failed not only Christian, but his whole family
as well. We'll begin to unpack this tragic case next
(30:15):
week as we go through the timeline of what happened
on October twelfth, twenty thirteen. That's it for this week's
episode of True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here, but
(30:37):
be sure to join us next week as we dive
deeper into the Christian Griggs case.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
Tony arrives at the Chisenhall house to find Christian laying
on the porch within a minute or two of him
being shot.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Had he just gotten there a minute earlier?
Speaker 4 (30:56):
This is what Tony's main regret is.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Yeah, how did he leave? How could he have gotten
there too late?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
He was respecting his son and that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
It's not as fault.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Join us next week as we continue to roll up
our sleeves and dig in. Thank you so much for
joining us. If you haven't watched Sundance TV's True crime story,
it Couldn't Happen here, you can catch all of our
episodes streaming on AMC Plus. For more information about this
and other cases we've covered, follow our social media handles
(31:29):
at ic HH stories on Instagram and Twitter,
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Andrew, North Carolina sits just outside of Raleigh.
(00:20):
It's a quaint town with a mix of commuters rushing
off to their jobs, young families raising their kids, and
that nostalgic country lifestyle. But on October twelfth, twenty thirteen,
tragedy strikes. A young man is shot and killed by
his father in law in broad daylight, and it leads
(00:43):
us to wonder what happened that day and how did
it end in death. Last episode, we answered some of
your mid season questions, and on this episode we will
begin our exploration into the Christian Griggs story in Angrew,
North Carolina. I'm Hillary Burton Morgan and this is true
(01:03):
crime story. It couldn't happen here. Welcome to another episode.
We are back at it examining a brand new case
this week. I'm here with Dan Poe and Andrew. You
know this case that we are going to cover, this
(01:25):
is one of the ones that really keeps me up
at night. You know, I watched it again this morning
just to get ready to record, and I cried. You know,
I cry every single time I watch this episode. So
let's get into it. It is our Andrew North Carolina
episode focusing on the death of Christian Griggs. Now, for
those of you who have not seen it, Christian Griggs
(01:46):
was a young black man who was shot six times
by his white father in law, Pat Chisenhall. A Pat
claims self defense and he invoked the Castle doctrine, which
is a law that basically grants a person and the
right to use deadly force to protect themselves and their property.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
A lot of the stories that we cover are obvious
that there's been a murder, and in this case, there's
a shooting and a death homicide, but it's unclear from
law enforcements point of view, if this was a murder
or not, if this was a self defense homicide, or
if it was an intentional murder. And I think that
most of the stories that we cover where it's a
(02:25):
question of whether it was murder or suicide, and I
think this is the only case where we know who
did the shooting, but we don't know what the circumstances
were surrounding that, and that's what we sort of pieced together, right, you.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Know, when it happened, where it happened, who did it,
and who the victim is right off the bat, and.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So what's the struggle with that? I mean, Normally, in
the structure of our TV show, we don't find out
who the real killer is until maybe the third act,
fourth act, sometimes the second act. But from the jump
on this episode, we know exactly who pulled the true.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
It's not a murder mystery. It's not a who done it?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
We know who done it, and it's not a wrongful
conviction either. There is a mystery in our minds, but
there certainly wasn't a mystery to the police.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Apparently, it's a why did this shooting happen?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And how and how? Let's talk about how we were
introduced to this story.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Luckily, the show garnered enough interest and people watched it
that we started getting calls and dms and emails about
cases that people thought we should look into. It was
like the most welcome thing in the world, because people
coming and saying, there's a case I know in my town.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
That's how you had the idea for the show.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, I mean it really is. Just as a reminder,
the case that sort of instigated our TV show was
the Nikki Atamando case here in upstate New York. Someone
came to me in my town and they said, Okay, Hillary,
there's a problem with the way this case is being covered.
There's a problem with the way the judge is speaking
to this young woman in our town. And yeah, I agreed.
So I went to AMC and Sundance and I said, hey,
(03:59):
can we start addressing some of these problems. And so
Christian's case and hearing about it through a DM through
his eighth grade school teacher, Nicole Norton, it just felt
very similar to the way I initially heard about Nicky's case.
It was someone who knew the parties and was concerned
that justice had not been properly served.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
She had watched the first season, yes, and that's what
made her say, I think they need to look at this.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
On September thirtieth of twenty twenty one, Nicole Norton wrote
to me, the story of Christian Griggs is worth looking into.
He was my former student in North Carolina, shot and
killed by his father in law. His father in law
was a white pastor and that's it. She'd sent this
to me via Instagram and my DMS. And the fact
(04:44):
that a former community member reached out about one of
her students. You can't find something more small town than that.
You know, she'd moved on in her life and was
still haunted that, Oh, I've lost this kid who I
knew in a tender age.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
And loved in it. My thought he was great, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Knew his family in the community for sure.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
When we talked to Nicole and to hear her describe
Christian as just so much potential, just a kid who
was bright and eager and everybody loved, and she just like,
this is one of the kids that's really going to
go somewhere, who's really going to do something with this life.
Speaker 6 (05:21):
Christian Griggs was a student of mine. I'm an eighth
grade math teacher and in I can't remember now what
year it was, but he was in my class and
he was one of those students that just always stands
out big, bright, smile, athletic, intelligent, from a good family,
just really going places. And unfortunately I learned after I
(05:44):
had moved to Virginia that he had been killed. And
it's just a story that I can't get out of
my mind because that doesn't match the kid that I.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Knew right and that he wasn't a rule breaker, that
he was really polite, and that he was really like
a team player.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
And she's a white teacher.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
It's somebody from the white community saying, actually, I think
that there's big issues and racism plays apart.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
We went down to Andrew, North Carolina for this. We
flew into Raleigh. You know, I lived in Wilmington, North
Carolina for the better part of a decade, and would
spend so much time in Raleigh because that's where my
childhood best friend lived. It was hard for me to
cover this case because when you love a place the
way I love parts of North Carolina, you expect good behavior,
(06:30):
You expect them to be kind to one another, You
expect there not to be corruption. And as we dug
into this case, we had to deal with the very
real current corruption and past corruption. So when you look
at Harnett County, where Andrew's located, it sits right next
(06:51):
door to Johnston County, which has been described as Clan country.
You know, this is a place where KKK billboard were
erected in the late nineteen sixties and we're up for
a full decade, and so there's photographic evidence on the internet,
and it certainly still lives in the memory of a
(07:11):
lot of the residents there. Were you aware of that
when we went down there, we.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Became aware of it. I mean, once we looked at
this case and decided this was the story that we
were going to tell, we looked into the history of
the area and.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
Then the existing political tensions.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
I mean, that is shocking to me.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
In the nineteen sixties, during the civil rights demonstrations, the
dormant klu Klux Klan once again began gaining momentum. Bob
Jones was the most influential grand Jagon in the county,
and in just three years he grew the North Carolina
Clan from a handful of friends to ten thousand members.
This is in the sixties. This isn't a long time ago.
(07:52):
And so for Christian Griggs family, they are one of
the few black families in this community. Raleigh is certainly
more diverse, but then when you leave that city center
area and you get out into the more rural setting,
that diversity slowly fades away.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
There's two things. There's the black and white but then
there's also the long term residents in the newcomers. There
are a lot of new people coming into town because
it's not far from the colleges. It's not far from
places where people would move to work, to go to school.
But you get that sense from families who have had
generational have been in the area.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
You cannot put blinders onto that stuff. You just can't.
And so we will be digging into that in later
episodes and how it all plays out in this case.
(08:52):
Let's set up the town a little bit. So Andrew,
North Carolina. What is it like.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
It's a small town that has a really nice little
downtown area with some restaurants and coffee shops, and it's
a really cute downtown, and it's close to some other
larger places of employment, you know, the universities and various
military bases. There's places to work. So it's a nice
town to raise your family in.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Even though it's far from a city, it still has
a slightly more suburban feel than many of the towntowns
that we've been to.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Yea, but either you're in agriculture in Harnett County where
Andrew is, or these new folks that have moved in
in the past twenty years, are looking for a little
slower country life, quiet.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
And their commuters. I mean the Griggs family, they moved
to Andrew, North Carolina to be close to the military base.
They were a military family and Christian themself served. What
stood out to you guys about the little downtown historic
district of Andrew, North Carolina.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
It was really cute. I mean right downtown. We were
looking to talk to people and kind of get a
sense what the town was like from the people who
live there. And we went down this one street where
there was a little coffee shop and we went in
there to talk to the folks who ran the place,
and they were very welcoming and said, yes, you shout
up lunch here too, you know, and you could talk
(10:14):
to any of the customers who come in and out.
And so we went outside. It was a Sunday I think,
and we're outside people were waiting to get in. I mean,
this is a popular place. This is where people go
after church to have Sunday line.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
We watched that church release happen in real time because
when we parked the car and got out, it was
a ghost town. There was like nobody and all of
a sudden, I guess it was noon, and you start
seeing all the cars with the families come in from
all the different four corners, and they're all like trying
to find street parking, and everyone ends up at this spot.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, and it was nice. It was nice to see
that people weren't going off to some big restaurant outside
of town.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
It's a well kept, small downtown. It's on the smaller side, say,
but everything's nice. There's a very nice park there. You know,
there's a lot of local small businesses in terms of restaurants.
There's a town clock for a bank clock.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
There was the train museum. Yeah, that was so cute.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, I think there had been a train stop there.
Of course the train had moved wherever it was now,
but that was a historical museum right there on that square.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
As a matter of fact. You know, normally when I
go into a town for the first time, I'm looking
for all the relevant items. A water tower, the local church,
the love train tracks, love train tracks, good to get
a train, everybody loves chew choose.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
Well, it's a good, it's a good a train whizzing
Buy is a nice edit point for you to get
out of one scene into another, and with Hillary, when
she goes to a town, we aren't just standing somewhere
and then she reads copy Hillary is she's a word crafter.
We have points we want to hit. We discuss kind
of how we want to encapsulate the story we're going
to tell and what we're doing there, and then we explore,
(12:01):
and we do it really off the cuff, but we
walk and talk often doing so. So we are filming
Hillary exploring the town and getting her impressions and talking
about the different subject matters and how it all fits
together and what she's seeing. And Andrew will be shooting
this walking backwards, and he often will refuse to have
(12:23):
a spotter, which would be the person who walks behind
him to make sure he doesn't fall over and kill
himself and smash the camera in his.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Head stripping overside, and we're trying really hard, and we're
trying really hard to make him not fall off into
the street and not bang into a pole.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
And then he's getting every angle and we're trying to
stay out of the frame. And Pepper questions to Hillary,
and let Andrew do this without dying.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
If you go to the shoe store with me, I
test all of my shoes walking backwards.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Do you.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Of course you do.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
He loves doing that in the middle of traffic. He's like, no, no,
let's just cross the street with cars, zip and pass.
I'm going to walk backwards and be blind because I
have a camera attached to my face and we're.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Always like Anderson traffic Again, It's like, yeah, but the
background is so great.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
What's your backward walking shoe of choice?
Speaker 4 (13:13):
I have big feet, so every time I go to
buy shoes, my old model of shoe is gone.
Speaker 7 (13:18):
You know.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
We need to get him wheelies so he can just
start to be his own dolly. He feel like real backwards.
Speaker 5 (13:23):
Please don't even suggest yea.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
With the little lights that flys with the kids.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yeah, yeah, that way they can see it coming. Okay. Look,
the walk and talk for me is a two birds,
one stone situation because while we're telling people what the
basis of the case is, we're also letting them see
the town for themselves. You know, we're moving along a
path together, and so rather than tell them everything we're seeing,
(13:48):
it's the show. Don't tell, you know, let them just
experience it with us.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I think you're just great at noticing the little details.
I think in Andrew, we're walking down that sidewalk in
front of the restaurant and there's in the cements of
handprints in the cement, and.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Oh, I forgot about that.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Hillary just walks up. Her hands fit perfectly in these handprints,
and you know, you spent so much time in North Carolina.
You're like, I'm home, I belong here. Hold on, Hillary,
just try to slow.
Speaker 4 (14:16):
Keep this distance from me, because I'm.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, just if you notice this sort of distance.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, oh, all these handprints are kind of great, Andrew,
I'll just stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just stop there, Just
go and let's walk and just do that. Yeah. The
cool thing about living in a small town is that
you can like literally leave your mark on the town.
(14:45):
If you're the business, put your hand in the concrete,
hang out for decades. That's cute. It's like little kid hands.
I wonder if they're all grown up now. God, Dan,
I forgot about that.
Speaker 8 (14:59):
You're right.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
It was going home, and so it added a layer
of complexity because it's like you're going back to this
place you love to critique it, and it's like you're
talking about your parents' divorce. It's like God, I love
these people, but I got to talk about something really
messy right now.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
The thing with all the people that we recorded on
camera with, there is clearly a very happy, prideful in
a positive They're very proud of their town. They feel
very open and welcoming. They clearly want to talk about
their town and our friendlyest strangers coming in. There was
a southernness of that kind of southern hospitality feeling.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Absolutely, they were very welcoming and they did have a
lot of pride for the town. I think everybody, Yeah,
it was pretty welcoming.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, let's just hear from some folks and Andrew about
what it's like to live there.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Tell me about that. Tell me what it's like to
live in a town for as long as you.
Speaker 7 (15:46):
Have well, everybody's your friend. You know everybody and you
know what's going on in their life because you're seeing
them every day. And my mother work with my dad
in this grocery store, so it was it was a
family thing and you just learn everybody in town. So
(16:09):
everybody'sh your praying.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
So do you hear, like you know what's going on
with people? The people like tell everybody kind of what's
going on. With everybody else.
Speaker 7 (16:17):
Well, if there's news, everybody knows the news, and especially
if it's something that's out of the ordinary. So yeah,
you pretty know much pretty much what's going on in town,
especially if you leave uptown and if you're in town
all the time.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
So it's your typical small town. I mean, everybody knows
everybody and kind of knows what's going on. I would
also like to point out that they have the Crape
Myrtle Festival. So for those of you who don't know
crape myrtles, they're these like beautiful trees that have fusia
and white flowers all over them and this really cool
bark that's multi colored. And like I've lived in North Carolina,
(16:52):
North Carolinians are proud of their crepe myrtle trees, and
so to be in the Cape Myrtle Capital that thrilling
for us. But let's also talk about some of the
other people we met. I mean, I think one of
our favorites was Reverend Brian. How do we meet him?
Speaker 2 (17:08):
We were right outside of the restaurant and we were
kind of grabbing folks as they came and went. I
don't remember who.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Did someone suggest him to us or was he just
out going?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
He was out on the street. He was out again,
in and out of that restaurant. We interviewed him right
outside the restaurant. There's a little picnic tables and stuff
in the little area, so we sat just outside there
at the picnic table.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Let's go ahead and hear that clip because we do
ask him about his thoughts on race living in the
town of Andrew.
Speaker 9 (17:33):
Oh yeah, but I've been born. I was born and
raged here forty plus years and as a local leader, pastor, singer, musician,
there's a lot of geling here I haven't personally seen,
and it's been quite covert, as it is in most places,
(17:54):
but it is usually if it is exposed, it is
dealt with immunity.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Usually if if.
Speaker 9 (18:01):
Racism or any racial issues are exposed, usually they're handled.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
The faith.
Speaker 9 (18:08):
The leaders come together, meet with other individuals and the
community leaders, and so it's usually handled pretty swiftly. As
a second cousin of George Floyd, they know I'll fight
for any unjustice, any irracial issue, as I did for
him and others. But I haven't seen that in the
last few years. We're even represented in terms of town race.
(18:31):
The leaders elections, it's pretty much civil.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
So as we were talking about earlier, I mean, this
is a case that's definitely about race. You have a
black man who was shot by his white father in law.
But it's also a case about guns and the right
to protect yourself because remember Patches and Hall, Christian's white
father in law. He claims self defense under the Castle
doctrine and the Second Amendment is something that's really important
(18:59):
to a lot of people North Carolina.
Speaker 9 (19:01):
There are rights and if and your question as to
do I feel that it would have been justified. Of
course I have a gun permit. Most people do, particularly now.
If my life is in danger, absolutely, then I must
defend myself. If my family is in danger, my wife Lamika, Absolutely,
somebody's gonna die or be stopped. If you come into
(19:24):
my home unannounced, then I have every right to defend myself.
If I see someone else in danger, absolutely, But if
my only indictment is that is that my color is
not yours, is that my melanin is darker than yours,
then that is not justified ever because that signifies that
(19:46):
that act was done out of hate. But you're supposed
to represent love, but you take it the put in
yourself to be God for a moment. Now you show
me where that's right. You show me what scripture validates that,
and then we have another the conversation.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Reverend Davis tells us here that he is a gun owner.
You know, most people in North Carolina either a gun
owners or supportive of that. It is a second Amendment state.
I used to shoot guns every weekend when I lived
in North Carolina. My dad is a skeet shooter. You know,
that is a normal pastime. Did he bring up guns
or did you bring up guns?
Speaker 2 (20:22):
We did ask everybody who we talked to about guns
and about their thoughts if they had anything pro con whatever,
and most people yeah, like you said, embrace the right
to bear arms for sure.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
We noticed something in town that there was a bit
of visual division. We had signs regarding guns in the town.
What do you remember about that signage, Andrew, Because you're
the one that had to go and shoot all that.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
It's always the same which is guns and firearms are
not permitted in this establishment. And those would be restaurants, bars,
whatever establishment decides to say no guns allowed. And that's
predominantly a sign that you will see in states and
North Carolina is one of them where open carry, which
(21:21):
is the ability to carry a pistol or any firearm
or a rifle on your shoulder on your hip, in
North Carolina it doesn't require a permit.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Well yeah, I mean there were other signs on the
street too that were very much in support of the
use of guns, you know, like, if you come into
my establishment uninvited, we will shoot you first and ask
questions later.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Trespassers will be shot. I mean we were doing a
walk and talk past a building and there was a
big sticker to my left. Trespassers will be shot. And
it's one thing to like see the bumper sticker and
put it up, you know, and have a nice laugh
with your buddies about it. That you would take someone's
(22:03):
life for trespassing. That's horrific. I mean, I don't know
how many people actually just really think about that.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
I mean a lot of people do. They say, if
you're looting, then you deserve to be shot. That's where
property is more valuable than human life. And that's been
a major conversation because you know, how can that be
the rule. Of course, you don't want people marauding around
and stealing and looting and destroying things. But the idea
that property is a shootable, you know.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
And I mean there.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Was a barbershop owner who said, yep, I have Second Amendment.
Speaker 5 (22:36):
I owned a gun.
Speaker 10 (22:39):
Yes, yes, I mean being myself, I'm a conceal a weaponcar.
So I have a gun. I carry a good one
hundred percent of the time. You know, it's just for
a petition, that's all it's for.
Speaker 6 (22:50):
You know.
Speaker 10 (22:51):
I never come across as the one like that, and
I hope I'll never have to come across in the
world to use a gun, you know. I mean I've
read a talk of situation now they'll walk away from
it and then have to pull the gun out and
use it. I have anyone to pull it out and
use it on me. You know, I'd rather do that
than anything else.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So so it's not the first choice.
Speaker 10 (23:12):
Last choice, the use no gun is the last choice
to be you know, a lot of times I think
you should be able to walk away for a situation
than anything else. You know, that's the last thing you
want to do to hurt someone. You get here in
the process or anything in this like that, you'll say
you don't want to get here. Nobody they don't want
nobody to hurt you, but you will protect you and
your family. That's anyone. Anyone gonna do that.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
There's a certain amount of responsible gunnership. Right. Yes, you
have a right to have a gun, and I have
a right to have a gun in my establishment and
defend my property. But we're also going to regulate and
not have everybody come into my place with guns that
they're going to get into argument and shoot each other.
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Right that he wants self regulation, but those are very
often the people who are not into government, right, But it's.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Very much self regulation. I think that it works well.
Speaker 4 (23:57):
What is certain. What is certain North Carolina is that yes,
there's a gun culture. Yes, people value their Second Amendment
right highly and they have laws that allow you to
open carry.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
It is part of the fabric.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
And I guess the big question or where that leads
to is it does have consequences with legislation.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
And yeah, of course second Amendment. We have the right
to defend ourselves. I believe in gun rights, but I
believe in regulation.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
It's a bravado.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
There is a bravado that comes in when you're putting
signs out saying you will be shot.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
And I think there was a second part of that, right,
trespassers will be shot and survivors will be shot again.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Yes, God, that's what it was.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
That's why it was so jarring because it was just
like gross.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
But if you live there, it's normal. And that's a
funny joke.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, it is normalized. We called them wordless signs when
you would put a piece of tin with a whole
bunch of buckshot through it at the end of your
driveway because without saying anything, everyone knew that there was
a gun on that property. And so it's you know,
getting the point across.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I deterrent.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Yes, I think it's safe to say that in this
area of North Carolina that you're going to find more
homes with guns than without.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Yeah, And so you know, the gun thing obviously plays
a huge part in this story. It makes you wonder
how differently things might have turned out if there weren't
guns on the premises that day, and if everyone would
have been able to walk away. And unfortunately that's not
what happened. So let's go ahead and get into what
(25:30):
we know happened that day. It's October twelfth, twenty thirteen,
in Andrew, North Carolina, and a nine to one one
call comes in from Christian's wife Katie. Let's play that, sheriff.
Speaker 8 (25:46):
Hi, I need someone at my house. My husband is
in my yard at in crazy threatening make sure my
dad and what's your nine? Tidy Grigg?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
And you said this was your.
Speaker 8 (25:58):
Dad my husband?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
And what's your husband's saying?
Speaker 8 (26:05):
Christian Griggs? And I'm at I live right beside my parents' house,
but I'm at their house, is right beside them? Okay?
Speaker 9 (26:16):
And do you have any weapons on him?
Speaker 8 (26:19):
I don't know?
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Has he threatened you in anyway?
Speaker 8 (26:24):
Yeah? What did he threatening my dad? Has he assaulted you? Not? Today?
Is he drinking or doing drunk? He has? I don't know.
He has warrants out. I went last night. He shut
his ass into What kind of warrants are he was
(26:47):
beating on my door last night to domestic trespassing I
think was what they called it, and damaged to the property.
But he did what's his day to birth? I'm I'll
have to check that, yandhi killing and he is still
this other location? Correct? He is on my front port?
(27:08):
All right, I'll get some money started that one. Thank you,
Thank you?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
So what you just heard is Katie Christian's wife calling
nine one one and telling the dispatcher that she and
her dad, Patchis and Hall are being threatened by Christian,
And we ended up using the nine one one calls
for our cold open, Dan, can you tell us what
a cold open is?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
It's the very beginning of the show before the title
sequence comes up, so it comes on immediately at the
beginning of the show, and the idea is to sort
of get the viewers to have a quick sense of
what this story is going to be about with the
main focus with the crux is something to hook them
in to understand where we're going.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
With it, and it's there to entice you to continue watching.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
Sure, and just set the table for what you're going
to see exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And there's different ways you could do that, right, a
traditional tease of saying here's some small sort of sample
of what the story is more like a trailer, right,
or or actually a scene where we're not explaining to
the audience what it is that they're seeing. We're just
coming right into a scene that an audience would look
at and say, what is this? What's going on here?
And raises a question.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I love a cold open that hooks you in and
sets the table in a way that makes you say, wait,
what's this. You know, you get a few pieces, but
you don't understand the full context of what's being said.
But it's in your head and that's going to be
in your head throughout until you get to that point.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And I think with using the nine one one call,
this is actuality. This is real stuff that happened.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
There's no opinion on this yet, no.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Opinion on this yet. This isn't something that where you're
reading from a transcript. It's not somebody telling us after
the fact. It's in the moment, and that's really powerful.
Speaker 5 (28:47):
It's easy to just be like, oh, nine one one,
there's a murder.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
This one was particular because that is a giant piece
of evidence.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Actually, what's crazy because you hear it right I'm sure
the people who are hearing it from the first time
right now, it seems pretty cut and dry.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Exactly the way we use the nine to moment call
in this is a little bit different because we set
up with it and then we go back to it
and see it from different angles with new information.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
That's different.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
In this case, we know the who, what, when, where,
and how, And the only thing we don't know is why,
and that's the entire crux.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
So the reason this case stands out to me is
because it's the thing I was fighting for with this show.
I said when we pitched the show that there are
two bad guys in every one of our stories. There's
the person who pulled the trigger, and then there is
the system. And if the system is ever to be critiqued,
it is this case. The systemic fuck ups in this
(29:43):
case keep me awake at night.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
Hell yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
So we don't need to know who the trigger man is.
We don't need to know who the aggressor is. The
system is the failure. And so that's exactly what we're
going to dive into as we examined the shooting of
Christian Griggs by his father in law, patchisen Hall. How
the system failed not only Christian, but his whole family
as well. We'll begin to unpack this tragic case next
(30:15):
week as we go through the timeline of what happened
on October twelfth, twenty thirteen. That's it for this week's
episode of True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here, but
(30:37):
be sure to join us next week as we dive
deeper into the Christian Griggs case.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
Tony arrives at the Chisenhall house to find Christian laying
on the porch within a minute or two of him
being shot.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Had he just gotten there a minute earlier?
Speaker 4 (30:56):
This is what Tony's main regret is.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Yeah, how did he leave? How could he have gotten
there too late?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
He was respecting his son and that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
It's not as fault.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Join us next week as we continue to roll up
our sleeves and dig in. Thank you so much for
joining us. If you haven't watched Sundance TV's True crime story,
it Couldn't Happen here, you can catch all of our
episodes streaming on AMC Plus. For more information about this
and other cases we've covered, follow our social media handles
(31:29):
at ic HH stories on Instagram and Twitter,
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