January 16, 2024 • 37 mins
The team dives deeper into the relationship between high school sweethearts, Christian Griggs, and Katie Chisenhall and discusses the lead-up to the tragic events that took place on October 12, 2013. We’ll hear directly from Christian’s parents, Tony and Dolly, as they share their first-hand account of what happened that day.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. It's October twelfth, twenty thirteen. Tony Griggs
(00:21):
is just waking up for what should be a relaxing Saturday.
He looks at his phone and sees several missed calls
from his son Christian. As the morning evolves, the day
becomes a waking nightmare. Last episode, we learned who Christian
Griggs was, how is relationship developed with Katie, and how
(00:42):
everything changed his freshman year of college. On this episode,
we'll dive a little deeper into Christian and Katie's relationship
and hear from Dolly and Tony what they experienced the
morning of October twelfth, twenty thirteen. I'm Hillary Burton Morgan
and this is true crime story. It couldn't happen here.
(01:09):
Hi guys, it's Hillary Burton Morgan here back with our crew,
Dan Poe and Andrew. You guys. When we left off
in our previous episode, Christian had just gotten into a
really big fight with his dad, Tony and decided to
move in with his girlfriend, Katie's family. So that was
like right at the end of two thousand and eight,
and in the beginning of two thousand and nine, Christian
(01:33):
and Katie get married.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, Pat Chisenhall, he actually officiates and marries the two together.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yes, because Katie's father is a pastor. We also learned
that Dolly and Tony didn't know that the wedding was
even happening. They only found out when an invite showed
up for their daughter, Crystal, but not for them. They
invite Crystal but not Christian's parents, and so what happened
when they talked to Christian.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
According to Dolly, Christian expressed that he wanted them to go,
but also expressed that there was tension with the Chisenhalls
about their presence, and Dolly says that they decided they
didn't want to be a distraction, They didn't want to
take away from his joy, They didn't want his experience
to be tense, so they chose not to go, which
is extraordinary, this very family oriented family to not attend
(02:23):
their beloved son's wedding.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So the wedding happens, what happens after that.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Well, Christian enlists in the Army and then in April
two thousand and nine, he graduates from basic training and
that spring, Katie, Christian, and Jaden all moved to a
military base in Georgia where he receives more training. And
then like a year later, in August twenty ten, Christian
is deployed to Iraq, and Katie and Jaden are essentially
(02:50):
left alone, you know, living on or just off base
in Georgia.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Which is really hard. Now she's away from her community base,
she's away from her parents, she's got a new baby.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
I mean, it's.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Tough when you have a new baby at home. I
can't only imagine what it was like for her there.
And then he's off in harm's way overseas going through
what he's going through.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
And he went through a lot, and Tony tells us
just a heartbreaking story about Christian's time in Iraq that
is worth listening to the whole thing. So let's go
to that clip.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
Yeah, it was here one evening and the phone rang.
Nothing good ever comes up three four o'clock in the morning.
It was a wee hours in the morning. The phone rang,
and I picked up the phone and it was Christian's
voice on the other end. He said, Dad, I said Christian,
(03:46):
and the phone went out. He called back, he said Dad,
and before I could respond, the phone went out. Typically
what happens when there's an incident like that, they go
radio silence. I mean they shut off all communications going out.
So he was in a blackout situation where he couldn't communicate.
Speaker 7 (04:07):
That's what it came down to.
Speaker 6 (04:09):
But the next day, or maybe thirty six hours later,
Christian called me and told me what had happened. He said, Dad,
our convoy was out and we were going along the
route and the vigle in front of me was hit.
I said, what do you mean, son hit? He said
it was naid.
Speaker 7 (04:36):
My next question was.
Speaker 6 (04:40):
Knowing I was speaking to him. He was all right?
Is everybody all right? He said, no, Dad, some of
my friends didn't make it. He said, I did what
you told me, Dad. I got the guys together, we
(05:05):
established a perimeter, we gave first aid, and I can
hear those guys calling for their mom. And at that time,
I believe Christian grew up in a different kind of way.
He began to see that this wasn't all boy scouts
(05:27):
and camp and playing camping that this business was real,
and he matured so much more, so much faster at
that point.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Not always. Everything's not always going to be okay.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
I guess everything's not going to always be okay. And
you can always you can do us right, and things
don't always come out right.
Speaker 8 (05:50):
Man.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
This is a difficult part of our show was Tony
walking us through this emotional situation that they were in
fust to dear friend in Iraq. I hate hearing this story.
I hate it. I hate knowing what that young man
had to live with because I know what it feels
like to have lost my friend, but I didn't witness it.
(06:13):
And so what Christian carried is dark and hard, and
you can tell that his father understands the weight of that.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Tony breaks knowing what his son's going through, knowing what
it's like, knowing how close his son was to death,
and that his son has just seen death.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
And so I hate how scary that was for Christian
and for Tony. And it's not too long into his tour.
I mean he was in Iraq in twenty ten. This
experience happened in April of twenty eleven, you know, so
he's not some seasoned veteran, he's a kid. And then
in August of twenty eleven, Christian's tour ends, so he
(06:54):
moves back in with Katie and Jaden in Georgia. But
it's clear that things are it now.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
He comes home to Georgia. But when he gets back,
that's when things get a little tense and well, he's
dealing with some of the repercussions of his experiences overseas.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I'm sure there is the chapter of joy there right
Daddy's home. Mom has set up a house for him.
We can finally be together as a family. I don't
think it went dark quickly, no, I think they got
through the holidays, you know. I mean, if he comes
home in August, there's nothing on the books that anything
bad happened in September. October's like Halloween. Families go trick
(07:36):
or treating, and then there's Thanksgiving, there's Christmas, and there's
not really a problem until May nineteenth of the following year.
In twenty twelve, there's a.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Nine one one report of Katie calling nine to one
one saying that Christians locked himself in the bedroom, he
has a weapon, and he is threatening suicide. The police
respond Christian comes out and he is initially agitated, and
the police talk to him and he says, look, I
wasn't intending to harm myself. I was just trying to
(08:08):
scare my wife. But he does admit to being depressed
after coming home from I Rock.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
It's incredibly scary, as they spouse, the wife, the mother
of your child.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
To have your.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Husband ideating anything suicidal with a weapon.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Yeahut, I mean, and a three year old baby in
the house.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It must have been terrifying for Katie. I mean, we
know she's been home, he's been in combat in a
horrible war, and they don't have their family support around them,
and he is admitting to being depressed. They're fighting, and
it must be really, really scary for her.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
There's clearly a shift here. Things are falling apart in
Christian's life. In this time period, Katie's called the police
on him for being suicidal, and we then learned that
by July twenty twelve, his army career had come to
an abrupt end when he's demoted two ranks to specialists
(09:08):
and then ultimately discharged due to a marijuana test he
failed before he ever even went into combat. Eventually, after
Christian's death. They did update his discharge to honorable. But
at the time this.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Happens, basically he's out of a job, he's.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Lost his friends, and now he's lost his career, and
it looks like he's going to lose his family. Everything
is falling apart for someone who, by all accounts, was
on track to have this good life. And so we
have to acknowledge that to.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Me, losing your job or quitting your job or being
unemployed in this particular situation is probably the worst thing
that could happen to most men in a traditional sense
where we value traditional roles, or where men feel it's
necessary to be the provider. You take away that you
(10:00):
almost take away any self respect right.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
And so we know he has a lot going on.
And now by September we know there's been some change
Christian and Katie. They're living apart. Katie's back and Andrew
with her parents while Christian is still in Georgia. And
over the course of just a couple days, Katie calls
nine to one one on Christian two more times, and
(10:25):
we know from the last call that the final nine
to one one call is regarding a custody dispute. Between
the two. So clearly things are continuing to deteriorate and quickly.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
And there's even an incident.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
There's not a police record, but there is an account
of another time Christian was threatening suicide and he apparently
had a gun and was in the backyard and Patches
and Hall went and sat down with Christian and talked
him down and sort of counseled him. So they didn't
feel the need to call the police at that point.
They don't have to see a police record of that.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
It always seems to be him threatening harm against himself,
not others. You know, there is no claim of domestic
violence from Christian, but we do have to remember that
when people try to leave, when women try to leave,
that is when things escalate. Yes, so to be fair,
historically and data driven information tells us that for everybody,
(11:17):
these are some of the most fraught times. Yes, acceparation
divorce apparently is more traumatic, they gauge than death.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Well, and I wouldn't let my child go as someone
who was expressing thoughts of self harm, right, you know,
it's a dangerous thing to put your child in. So
Katie's perspective isn't unrelatable. I absolutely can understand why she
would be like, no, no, pump the brakes. I think
(11:55):
what's really important about this episode is that these little
tiny knucks of information, you know, when you look at
them closely, you're getting a picture painted of a young
man who went from being, you know, on this ideal
path to now having law enforcement called on him multiple
(12:16):
times and by people who he loves. It changes someone's
self esteem, it changes their self image, and as we
are going to see in this case, it changes the
way the community looks at him when this shooting occurs.
And that's where I want to start moving toward. Now.
You know, there's this period where, following the nine to
(12:37):
one one call incidents and the separation, Christian and Katie
actually try to make things work.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Yeah, Christian and Katy has split up and reconciled I
think a couple of times. And it sounds like he
came back up from Georgia and moved into a house
with Katie on her family's property and they were making
a go of it.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
It was late twenty twelve, early twenty thirteen, and that
is when decided to just move in as a family
to the house next door to her parents, to kind
of Chase after that American dream of the nuclear family.
We're going to make it work.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
I mean, yeah, they're trying to make it work. You know.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
They moved into the house on the Chisenhall's property, right
next to Katie's dad, and Christian helps fix it up.
And that goes on for about nine months till the
end of the summer twenty twelve. But by then, you know,
around the end of September early October, they split up again,
and he was going back to school and started attending
classes again and was no longer living at the house.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
And I think Katie even has separation paper.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Strata, and even though they're unsigned, the lawyer drafts a
separation agreement granting primary custody of Jaden to Katie and
allowing visitation from Christian every other weekend. And it also
stipulates that Christian is to make monthly child support payments.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
That's right, And by October eighth, we know that they
have one more fight. Apparently, Katie calls Christian she needs
help with their daughter, Jaden, and Christians at school and
so it takes them a while to get down to
the house.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
She called him while he was in class and he
finished class and then got right in his car and
came down. And it says in our documents that when
he arrived at the house, Katie told him he should
have dropped everything and came there right away, and then
she slammed the door in his face. So even though
just before this it seems like they are handling things
(14:27):
the right way, you know, they're getting their separation papers,
they're figuring out the custody issues, there are clearly still
issues for these two that they're working through. And let's
just be clear, it is a very complicated relationship. We've
got an interracial couple in the South. We've got a
daughter of a pastor who gets pregnant in high school
(14:49):
and has a baby out of wedlock with her boyfriend.
We eventually have a young marriage, we have custody issues,
and we have a number of traumatic events that occur
after Christian goes off returns from war. So relationships are
not easy to start with. But all of this, I mean,
that is a lot facing these two young people. And
(15:11):
so it's just days after the October eighth incident when
Katie slammed the door in Christian's face after he came
to help with Jaden. Everything starts to get more and
more heated, leading up to the events of October twelfth
on the front lawn of Pat Chisenhall's home. So let's
not talk about that weekend and specifically the morning of
(15:32):
October twelfth. Tony and Dollie they tell us about that morning.
I mean, they weren't just bystanders to information. They're actually
outside of Pat Chisenhall's house when their son, Christian is
transported to the hospital, and Tony he's been talking to
Christian all morning.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
This was a unique situation in that the victim's parents
really could walk us through the events of the morning
as they unfolded.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Right, And that's one of the things that really different
about this episode because they were there. We use Tony
and Dolly as our through line because they are our
reliable narrators. You know, usually we use like a lawyer
or some other kind of official who walks us through
the step by step of the case, because they make
(16:18):
it just really factual and clear.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
They are often somebody in a more official capacity, just
because storytelling wise, you don't necessarily want to go to
the person who is traumatized. They often don't know the details,
but Tony was intimately involved in the blow by blow
of the day of He was first person on the scene,
he was last person to see him alive other than Pat.
So there are many factors where he plays a part
(16:44):
in a story that often the loved ones left behind
do not.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And he's so clear. So we're just going to hear
it from Tony and Dolly right now about what happened
that weekend.
Speaker 9 (16:56):
On October eleventh, Christian was on fall break at North
Carolina State and he was supposed to have Jaden that night.
Speaker 6 (17:05):
So that Friday, Christian came in the house and we
thought he would have Jaden with him, but he was alone.
So my wife asked him, where's Jaden. We thought Jayden
would be with you.
Speaker 9 (17:17):
He really didn't say anything and he went upstairs. The
next morning, Christian went back to the Chisenhall's house to
get Jaden.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
I looked at my phone, had to be about nine
o'clock in the morning, had several miscalls. It was Christian,
so I called him back. The line had a lot
of static in it and it cut the Chisenhall's house.
It's just a short distance from here, but the connectivity
is poor. Jumped in my truck and I drove over there.
(17:48):
I pulled in behind Christian. I said, what's going on?
He said, they're not here as usual. I'm here to
pick up Jaden and there's nobody here at the house.
I said, well, what are you going to do? He said,
I'm going to hang out and I'm gonna wait for
them to come back. And he asked me to go
ahead and leave. So I left as Christian asked me
to do. But I wish I would have stayed. And
(18:15):
as I walked in the door to my house, my
phone rang again. It was Christian. This time he said, dead.
This guy's over here telling me to shut the f up.
I said, Christian, who, He said pat. I drove over there.
When I arrived at the house, it was quiet, it
(18:38):
was serene. I thought something about, this is not quite right.
And as I walked across the yard and stepped up
upon the steps and saw the window closest to the
door had been pushed in slightly at the top, kind
of like a double hung window.
Speaker 7 (18:56):
Where you would fold it down.
Speaker 6 (18:58):
I had reached out my right hand and ring it orbell.
And I looked at my immediate right and there was
Christian laying on.
Speaker 7 (19:03):
The ground, face down.
Speaker 6 (19:06):
I did not know what had happened to him. I
kneeled down by his side, and almost instantaneous, police cars
began to come from everywhere Harney County Sheriff Department. They
jump out of their vehicles, weapons drawn, run up on
the porch see me, say we've got a call shots fired.
(19:28):
There's been a shooting. I said it must be my son.
They immediately pushed me off the porch. I then called
my wife, Dolly, and I say Christian's been shot. Dolly
streams and the phone goes dead.
Speaker 9 (19:48):
I just remember dropping the phone and I told my
daughter Crystal met Christian had been shot, and we just
ran out the door. I didn't have my purse, I
didn't have no shoes. When we got there, the EMT
was doing the sea pure my son and one of
(20:08):
the deputies came off the porch and said that we're
going to take Christian to wait mad and I said
that he's still alive, and he said yes.
Speaker 8 (20:17):
And we get to the hospital. Eventually the doctor comes
in and says he didn't make he didn't make.
Speaker 7 (20:45):
The doctor says he didn't make it. I fell to
the floor. I couldn't believe. I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 6 (21:02):
Dan told us the magnitude of his injuries at that point,
but one of the trauma nurses that was in a
room said, whatever happened, he was trying.
Speaker 7 (21:12):
To get out of there.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Dan, you're the person who had to walk Tony and
Dolly through the retelling. Anytime that we're asking someone to
do this, we're asking them to relive their trauma, and
we can absolutely hear it here. I mean, it is
sickening to listen to you going into that day. How
(21:36):
do you steal yourself for that? How do you sit
there as a grown man across from you is like crying.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
Yeah, I mean it is hard with somebody with the
obvious strength that Tony has. You know, he's a strong
man who is very much sort of in control, and
then to see that breakdown and to see him be
overcome with emotion and all you want to do is
to comfort, you know, you kind of want to stop
and express sympathy, which you know you can't. You have
(22:05):
to just let him talk and tell his story. And
I think one of the big moments for me was
when he says he goes to the house and talks
to Christian, and Christian's like, they're not here, and I'm
going to wait for them, And Tony was going to
wait with him, like, well, I will stay here with you, son,
(22:25):
and Christian tells him to go home. Just no, it'll
make things worth just leave, and Tony leaving to go
back to his own house and leaving Christian there. You
could just see on Tony's face He's like, I wish
I hadn't done that. I just wish I'd stayed that
maybe Christian would still be alive.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
The guilt is so clear. It's in his voice, but
his face. You can see the clouds coming over him
when he says that, and his feeling of guilt and
his knowing that that one small thing driving down the
road for a minute could have changed everything had he not.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
I mean, I'm amazed that people can actually even tell
these stories without falling apart. I mean, I couldn't do it.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
No, no, And you know, Poe and I early on
had a lot of conversations about how to give people
space versus like predatory, like trying to get people to cry.
You know, and in the world of documentary you have
two different people. You have people like Poe that are like,
I'm going to let you sit in silence so that
(23:32):
you can say all the things that you need to say,
because it's going to hurt. I've been on the other
side of it. I have been interviewed about like hard, hard,
uncomfortable things in my life, and I have felt that
predatory energy where it's like, let's get her to cry,
and so I never ever wanted to put anyone else
in that position.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
We butted heads. Well, yeah, because I didn't understand what
I was asking because you felt like it was Hillary
wanted to do what we all do and reach out
and tell them it's.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Okay and that Dan's talking about and try to.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Make it better. Hilly always wants to try to make
it better. I have learned. And I look like a fool,
I'm sure, but I have a very expressive face and
I show them what I'm feeling and my sympathy and
my empathy as I'm listening to them and looking at
them and letting them. But you have to let that silence.
You have to let them process it and speak their truth.
(24:24):
And so Hillary and I negotiating how she would interact
and not do her automatic take care of them.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Sorry, I'm sorry, You're a great sister, You're a great
you know dad.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
It's not your fault, like that kind of thing that's
so instinctive to us. To try to make it feel better,
you have to just listen and hear and give them
that space. And it took a while for you to
trust in that process.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Well, yeah, I mean, it is really difficult walking through
the worst part of your life and doing it on camera,
and doing it with a whole bunch of strangers that
you hope will honor your story in the edit. It's
a vulnerability that is really hard to describe. And so
I never wanted our show to be predatory in that way.
(25:06):
The difference between like acting jobs I've done and the
work that we do here is that I had been
working in an environment where you watch people try to
make themselves cry. It's their job, right.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Try to make someone else cry.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yeah, it's like you're trying to get an emotion here
watching Tony try not to fall apart, try not to cry,
try to remain clear in the midst of you know,
obviously walking through something so dark, sharing.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
His drama and living it. It was so raw and
real with him.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Yeah, we're asking them to go back to that moment,
which is just the most horrific moment of their lives.
And Dolly also, I mean, she presents in a very
different way. She tends to speak a little faster and
without taking breaths. You know, her tension and her emotion
is in her chest. It weighs on it. So with
Dolly it was also like slowing her down a little bit,
(26:03):
because I think her way of dealing with the trauma
was to sort of kind of get through it and
go quicker, where Tony kind of slowed down a little bit.
And it was interesting to talk to the both of
them and see how they both kept their emotion where
they held their emotion.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
You know, we learned from Dolly during our time with
them that she works in an ICU where you're dealing
with high stress situations all the time and you just
have to compartmentalize your feelings and deal with them later.
And so this makes sense.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Also Tony, where he was so strong in his vulnerability
and he does break and it just never doesn't bring
me to tears, but he also regroups like the bottom
doesn't fall out. He walks through it in that incredibly
stoic but yet emotional way, and then he regroups and
(26:54):
he continues forth, and it was something to witness. It
was really something to witness.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
It's a step by step account that we don't normally
get from family members. Usually we get a bird's eye view,
and it's very like wide and I got a phone
call that my loved one is dead, or I showed
up at the house and they were gone, And Tony
is walking us through step by step. I got a
phone call, I went over there, I was there, I
(27:21):
came home, I get another phone call, I get in
my car, I get there, I put my arm out
to ring the doorbell. You know, it's so step by
step that we can walk it with him, And I
cannot imagine the horror show of looking down and seeing
my child face down on a front porch and then
(27:43):
have law enforcement show up and draw guns on me
as I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with my kid.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
You definitely can see it as he's walking us through
his experience. He's seeing it in his head. I have
no doubt. Yeah, he is visualizing every single frame that
came into view as he's doing that, and we can
see it with him because of the way He's telling
his story.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Everything Tony's telling us, if you close your eyes, you
can envision it. But we usually do help viewers a
bit here, you know, we give them visuals on screen
that can set them into Tony's perspective. And so, Andrew,
I want to direct this line of questioning to you.
We do recreations in order to help visually give the
(28:38):
information that our audience is hearing. But this episode was
a little bit different. Tony actually participated in the recreations
that we were doing for this storytelling. Is this a
rare circumstance that you have someone so closely connected to
the death helping you with the recreation?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yes, you know, I was. Actually this just sort of happened.
We knew that we would have to do something of
Christian traveling around in his car and the back and
forth of Tony between his house and Katie's house. And
I'm just talking to Tony and he's like, oh, yeah,
I've got Christian's car still. Oh yeah, we've got all
(29:21):
of his stuff still. He opens the garage door and
there's the car. This family has clung onto all of
Christian's belongings all these years, and they haven't let go
or parted with any of them. And the one item
that was of relevance was his actual vehicle with which
he arrived at Katie's house that day. And that's incredibly unusual.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
So what happens, I mean, you say, like, yes, we'd
love to use the actual car that Christian drove, but
then who drives it and where do you park it
in order to film these things?
Speaker 5 (29:56):
Right?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
And something that I would never ever ask of who's
the family member or the bereaved of a victim, is
can you help us out? I asked him. I said, well,
can we use the car? And he's like sure, can
I help you out? And then he's like, anything you want,
And I said, well we need to drive from here
and there. He's like, well, I'll do it all for you.
(30:17):
So he was willing to actually participate and play the
character basically of himself in our recreation.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
He really sort of actually drove around walking us through
the events of the day that he did experience that
he experienced himself. So it was really unusual for us
to get that. And so it was Tony in his
car driving around the neighborhood, and then Christian's car in
the driveway as if it was parked at the Chisenhall's house.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Having physically retraced the steps with him for the listener
at home. What is the proximity between these two houses,
the one where Christian grew up and then the one
where the Chisenhalls are now.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Two or three miles?
Speaker 5 (30:56):
Yeah, it doesn't take long to drive.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Did that strike you that day as Tony was kind
of guiding.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
You, Of course it did. I mean literally, Tony arrives
at the Chisenhall house to find Christian laying on the
porch within a minute or two of him being shot.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
I mean, he's there right before and he's there right
after him. I mean these are parallel storytelling, And that's
what's amazing about this particular episode is we literally have
this blow by blow from different perspectives of the same
exact tiny amount of time where life changed for everyone.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
How early in your interview with Tony and Dolly do
you ask them to walk you through all of this
super intense subject matter.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Well, we tend to not jump right into that.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yeah, I mean I can't imagine a more awkward Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
It already destroys the rest of your interview. Yeah, if
you do it too soon, like you can't get nuts
and bolts and facts and other things. Generally, we like
to lead with who's this person, what's your family? Like,
how'd you end up here? Tell us about Christian, tell
us about you and Dolly, tell us about your family,
all of that stuff, so that there's happy, so that
(32:06):
you're involved in the good, beautiful parts of their life
before tragedy strikes.
Speaker 5 (32:11):
Yeah, once you hit the tragedy, you can't go back. Yeah,
Often the interview is over. That's the tone.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
There is no anything but tragedy.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Or aftermath of tragedy and investigation and things like that.
But you can't get back to the life and the
humanness of the victim and whoever else and whatever else
happened before Exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
We talked quite a bit about a lot of things
before we got to this story, and then we took
a break after he told this story. You know, it's okay,
let's stop now for a little bit. You know, you
have to stop at a certain point and take a break.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Was there ever a version of this specific episode where
we didn't lead with Tony and Dolly telling us their story.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
Sure, but none of those other versions felt right. Tony
and Dolly's storytelling was just so powerful for me.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
It's one of the surprises of filmmaking. Essentially, who would
have thought that Tony would be such a great storyteller.
And the part of the story that he's telling perfectly
matches with the nine one one audio, which became extremely
important to starting the show. That's not something you actually plan,
it's something you discover.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. So we will
be diving into those nine one one calls later. And
what you guys haven't heard yet is this kind of
overlap of what's happening at the Chisenhall's house with Tony
arriving to find his son.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
And you don't just discovered in the field, you then
discover it in the edit. And that's why with documentary,
the real writing, the story comes in the edit. Written
we can know what we're looking for and things we
need to hit. We go in the field, we discover more,
We get more than we need. We don't know exactly
how the different pieces are going to fit together, so
we just get a fast amount. But you know, I
always start thinking editorially in the field. I can't help it.
(33:54):
And then when you get in the edit, you have
an idea and then often you mix it up and
scarebbled around three or four times and you figure out
where it's supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
So at the end of going through all of this
with Tony, what is his demeanor?
Speaker 5 (34:10):
Yeah, he was somber.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
I mean, he was definitely wanting to help tell the
story and was very happy to do it. But afterwards,
when we stopped and we were talking, you could just
see it on his face. Reliving that day was hard.
I mean you could just tell he was definitely feeling somber.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Tony is so deep, I mean, you just you can
see what's happening with him, and he's just so deep
and so stoic at the same time, but you can
see his emotion.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
He parted ways with me with a cigar he did.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yeah, I can't imagine, like, you know, when we pack
up all of our stuff, we leave and we go
home and we start prepping for the next day. But
then Tony and Dolly sit down, having just walked through
the worst day of their life, and I can't imagine
that feeling. You know, I know how heavy it feels
for us, I can't imagine how heavy it is for
them retracing those steps and maybe he's done it a
(35:02):
million times in the last ten years.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
He's certainly done it in his mind. I mean he's
haunted by having listened to Christian and gone home. He
said it, and you could feel it, like to your core.
He's gone over that morning every day. I would imagine.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
That's it for this week's episode of True Crime Story
It Couldn't Happen Here, But be sure to join us
next week as we dive deeper into the Christian Griggs case.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Can it counting?
Speaker 7 (35:34):
Now?
Speaker 3 (35:34):
One?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
We want your name.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Exactly what happened, sir?
Speaker 9 (35:39):
I just call for us?
Speaker 3 (35:43):
Was threatening in the door, he let in the win.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
He shocked nobody. Join us next week as we continue
to roll up our sleeves and dig in. Thank you
so much for joining us. If you haven't watched Sundance
TV's True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you can
catch all of our episodes streaming on AMC Plus. For
(36:10):
more information about this and other cases we've covered, follow
at ice HH stories on Instagram. True Crime Story It
Couldn't Happen Here was produced by Mischief Farm in association
with Bungalow Media and Entertainment Authentic Management Productions and Figdonia
(36:31):
in partnership with Sundance TV. Executive producers are me, Hillary Burton,
Morgan Liz Deecessor, Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and Meg Mortimer.
Producers are Maggie Robinson, Katz and Libby Siegel. Our audio
engineer is Brendan Dalton, with original music by Philip Radiotes.
(36:52):
We want to say a special thank you to everyone
who participated, but especially the families impacted by our cases.
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. It's October twelfth, twenty thirteen. Tony Griggs
(00:21):
is just waking up for what should be a relaxing Saturday.
He looks at his phone and sees several missed calls
from his son Christian. As the morning evolves, the day
becomes a waking nightmare. Last episode, we learned who Christian
Griggs was, how is relationship developed with Katie, and how
(00:42):
everything changed his freshman year of college. On this episode,
we'll dive a little deeper into Christian and Katie's relationship
and hear from Dolly and Tony what they experienced the
morning of October twelfth, twenty thirteen. I'm Hillary Burton Morgan
and this is true crime story. It couldn't happen here.
(01:09):
Hi guys, it's Hillary Burton Morgan here back with our crew,
Dan Poe and Andrew. You guys. When we left off
in our previous episode, Christian had just gotten into a
really big fight with his dad, Tony and decided to
move in with his girlfriend, Katie's family. So that was
like right at the end of two thousand and eight,
and in the beginning of two thousand and nine, Christian
(01:33):
and Katie get married.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Yeah, Pat Chisenhall, he actually officiates and marries the two together.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yes, because Katie's father is a pastor. We also learned
that Dolly and Tony didn't know that the wedding was
even happening. They only found out when an invite showed
up for their daughter, Crystal, but not for them. They
invite Crystal but not Christian's parents, and so what happened
when they talked to Christian.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
According to Dolly, Christian expressed that he wanted them to go,
but also expressed that there was tension with the Chisenhalls
about their presence, and Dolly says that they decided they
didn't want to be a distraction, They didn't want to
take away from his joy, They didn't want his experience
to be tense, so they chose not to go, which
is extraordinary, this very family oriented family to not attend
(02:23):
their beloved son's wedding.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
So the wedding happens, what happens after that.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Well, Christian enlists in the Army and then in April
two thousand and nine, he graduates from basic training and
that spring, Katie, Christian, and Jaden all moved to a
military base in Georgia where he receives more training. And
then like a year later, in August twenty ten, Christian
is deployed to Iraq, and Katie and Jaden are essentially
(02:50):
left alone, you know, living on or just off base
in Georgia.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Which is really hard. Now she's away from her community base,
she's away from her parents, she's got a new baby.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
I mean, it's.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Tough when you have a new baby at home. I
can't only imagine what it was like for her there.
And then he's off in harm's way overseas going through
what he's going through.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
And he went through a lot, and Tony tells us
just a heartbreaking story about Christian's time in Iraq that
is worth listening to the whole thing. So let's go
to that clip.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
Yeah, it was here one evening and the phone rang.
Nothing good ever comes up three four o'clock in the morning.
It was a wee hours in the morning. The phone rang,
and I picked up the phone and it was Christian's
voice on the other end. He said, Dad, I said Christian,
(03:46):
and the phone went out. He called back, he said Dad,
and before I could respond, the phone went out. Typically
what happens when there's an incident like that, they go
radio silence. I mean they shut off all communications going out.
So he was in a blackout situation where he couldn't communicate.
Speaker 7 (04:07):
That's what it came down to.
Speaker 6 (04:09):
But the next day, or maybe thirty six hours later,
Christian called me and told me what had happened. He said, Dad,
our convoy was out and we were going along the
route and the vigle in front of me was hit.
I said, what do you mean, son hit? He said
it was naid.
Speaker 7 (04:36):
My next question was.
Speaker 6 (04:40):
Knowing I was speaking to him. He was all right?
Is everybody all right? He said, no, Dad, some of
my friends didn't make it. He said, I did what
you told me, Dad. I got the guys together, we
(05:05):
established a perimeter, we gave first aid, and I can
hear those guys calling for their mom. And at that time,
I believe Christian grew up in a different kind of way.
He began to see that this wasn't all boy scouts
(05:27):
and camp and playing camping that this business was real,
and he matured so much more, so much faster at
that point.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Not always. Everything's not always going to be okay.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
I guess everything's not going to always be okay. And
you can always you can do us right, and things
don't always come out right.
Speaker 8 (05:50):
Man.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
This is a difficult part of our show was Tony
walking us through this emotional situation that they were in
fust to dear friend in Iraq. I hate hearing this story.
I hate it. I hate knowing what that young man
had to live with because I know what it feels
like to have lost my friend, but I didn't witness it.
(06:13):
And so what Christian carried is dark and hard, and
you can tell that his father understands the weight of that.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Tony breaks knowing what his son's going through, knowing what
it's like, knowing how close his son was to death,
and that his son has just seen death.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
And so I hate how scary that was for Christian
and for Tony. And it's not too long into his tour.
I mean he was in Iraq in twenty ten. This
experience happened in April of twenty eleven, you know, so
he's not some seasoned veteran, he's a kid. And then
in August of twenty eleven, Christian's tour ends, so he
(06:54):
moves back in with Katie and Jaden in Georgia. But
it's clear that things are it now.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
He comes home to Georgia. But when he gets back,
that's when things get a little tense and well, he's
dealing with some of the repercussions of his experiences overseas.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I'm sure there is the chapter of joy there right
Daddy's home. Mom has set up a house for him.
We can finally be together as a family. I don't
think it went dark quickly, no, I think they got
through the holidays, you know. I mean, if he comes
home in August, there's nothing on the books that anything
bad happened in September. October's like Halloween. Families go trick
(07:36):
or treating, and then there's Thanksgiving, there's Christmas, and there's
not really a problem until May nineteenth of the following year.
In twenty twelve, there's a.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Nine one one report of Katie calling nine to one
one saying that Christians locked himself in the bedroom, he
has a weapon, and he is threatening suicide. The police
respond Christian comes out and he is initially agitated, and
the police talk to him and he says, look, I
wasn't intending to harm myself. I was just trying to
(08:08):
scare my wife. But he does admit to being depressed
after coming home from I Rock.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
It's incredibly scary, as they spouse, the wife, the mother
of your child.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
To have your.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Husband ideating anything suicidal with a weapon.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Yeahut, I mean, and a three year old baby in
the house.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It must have been terrifying for Katie. I mean, we
know she's been home, he's been in combat in a
horrible war, and they don't have their family support around them,
and he is admitting to being depressed. They're fighting, and
it must be really, really scary for her.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
There's clearly a shift here. Things are falling apart in
Christian's life. In this time period, Katie's called the police
on him for being suicidal, and we then learned that
by July twenty twelve, his army career had come to
an abrupt end when he's demoted two ranks to specialists
(09:08):
and then ultimately discharged due to a marijuana test he
failed before he ever even went into combat. Eventually, after
Christian's death. They did update his discharge to honorable. But
at the time this.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Happens, basically he's out of a job, he's.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Lost his friends, and now he's lost his career, and
it looks like he's going to lose his family. Everything
is falling apart for someone who, by all accounts, was
on track to have this good life. And so we
have to acknowledge that to.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Me, losing your job or quitting your job or being
unemployed in this particular situation is probably the worst thing
that could happen to most men in a traditional sense
where we value traditional roles, or where men feel it's
necessary to be the provider. You take away that you
(10:00):
almost take away any self respect right.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
And so we know he has a lot going on.
And now by September we know there's been some change
Christian and Katie. They're living apart. Katie's back and Andrew
with her parents while Christian is still in Georgia. And
over the course of just a couple days, Katie calls
nine to one one on Christian two more times, and
(10:25):
we know from the last call that the final nine
to one one call is regarding a custody dispute. Between
the two. So clearly things are continuing to deteriorate and quickly.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
And there's even an incident.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
There's not a police record, but there is an account
of another time Christian was threatening suicide and he apparently
had a gun and was in the backyard and Patches
and Hall went and sat down with Christian and talked
him down and sort of counseled him. So they didn't
feel the need to call the police at that point.
They don't have to see a police record of that.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
It always seems to be him threatening harm against himself,
not others. You know, there is no claim of domestic
violence from Christian, but we do have to remember that
when people try to leave, when women try to leave,
that is when things escalate. Yes, so to be fair,
historically and data driven information tells us that for everybody,
(11:17):
these are some of the most fraught times. Yes, acceparation
divorce apparently is more traumatic, they gauge than death.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Well, and I wouldn't let my child go as someone
who was expressing thoughts of self harm, right, you know,
it's a dangerous thing to put your child in. So
Katie's perspective isn't unrelatable. I absolutely can understand why she
would be like, no, no, pump the brakes. I think
(11:55):
what's really important about this episode is that these little
tiny knucks of information, you know, when you look at
them closely, you're getting a picture painted of a young
man who went from being, you know, on this ideal
path to now having law enforcement called on him multiple
(12:16):
times and by people who he loves. It changes someone's
self esteem, it changes their self image, and as we
are going to see in this case, it changes the
way the community looks at him when this shooting occurs.
And that's where I want to start moving toward. Now.
You know, there's this period where, following the nine to
(12:37):
one one call incidents and the separation, Christian and Katie
actually try to make things work.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Yeah, Christian and Katy has split up and reconciled I
think a couple of times. And it sounds like he
came back up from Georgia and moved into a house
with Katie on her family's property and they were making
a go of it.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
It was late twenty twelve, early twenty thirteen, and that
is when decided to just move in as a family
to the house next door to her parents, to kind
of Chase after that American dream of the nuclear family.
We're going to make it work.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
I mean, yeah, they're trying to make it work. You know.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
They moved into the house on the Chisenhall's property, right
next to Katie's dad, and Christian helps fix it up.
And that goes on for about nine months till the
end of the summer twenty twelve. But by then, you know,
around the end of September early October, they split up again,
and he was going back to school and started attending
classes again and was no longer living at the house.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
And I think Katie even has separation paper.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Strata, and even though they're unsigned, the lawyer drafts a
separation agreement granting primary custody of Jaden to Katie and
allowing visitation from Christian every other weekend. And it also
stipulates that Christian is to make monthly child support payments.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
That's right, And by October eighth, we know that they
have one more fight. Apparently, Katie calls Christian she needs
help with their daughter, Jaden, and Christians at school and
so it takes them a while to get down to
the house.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
She called him while he was in class and he
finished class and then got right in his car and
came down. And it says in our documents that when
he arrived at the house, Katie told him he should
have dropped everything and came there right away, and then
she slammed the door in his face. So even though
just before this it seems like they are handling things
(14:27):
the right way, you know, they're getting their separation papers,
they're figuring out the custody issues, there are clearly still
issues for these two that they're working through. And let's
just be clear, it is a very complicated relationship. We've
got an interracial couple in the South. We've got a
daughter of a pastor who gets pregnant in high school
(14:49):
and has a baby out of wedlock with her boyfriend.
We eventually have a young marriage, we have custody issues,
and we have a number of traumatic events that occur
after Christian goes off returns from war. So relationships are
not easy to start with. But all of this, I mean,
that is a lot facing these two young people. And
(15:11):
so it's just days after the October eighth incident when
Katie slammed the door in Christian's face after he came
to help with Jaden. Everything starts to get more and
more heated, leading up to the events of October twelfth
on the front lawn of Pat Chisenhall's home. So let's
not talk about that weekend and specifically the morning of
(15:32):
October twelfth. Tony and Dollie they tell us about that morning.
I mean, they weren't just bystanders to information. They're actually
outside of Pat Chisenhall's house when their son, Christian is
transported to the hospital, and Tony he's been talking to
Christian all morning.
Speaker 5 (15:50):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
This was a unique situation in that the victim's parents
really could walk us through the events of the morning
as they unfolded.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Right, And that's one of the things that really different
about this episode because they were there. We use Tony
and Dolly as our through line because they are our
reliable narrators. You know, usually we use like a lawyer
or some other kind of official who walks us through
the step by step of the case, because they make
(16:18):
it just really factual and clear.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
They are often somebody in a more official capacity, just
because storytelling wise, you don't necessarily want to go to
the person who is traumatized. They often don't know the details,
but Tony was intimately involved in the blow by blow
of the day of He was first person on the scene,
he was last person to see him alive other than Pat.
So there are many factors where he plays a part
(16:44):
in a story that often the loved ones left behind
do not.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And he's so clear. So we're just going to hear
it from Tony and Dolly right now about what happened
that weekend.
Speaker 9 (16:56):
On October eleventh, Christian was on fall break at North
Carolina State and he was supposed to have Jaden that night.
Speaker 6 (17:05):
So that Friday, Christian came in the house and we
thought he would have Jaden with him, but he was alone.
So my wife asked him, where's Jaden. We thought Jayden
would be with you.
Speaker 9 (17:17):
He really didn't say anything and he went upstairs. The
next morning, Christian went back to the Chisenhall's house to
get Jaden.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
I looked at my phone, had to be about nine
o'clock in the morning, had several miscalls. It was Christian,
so I called him back. The line had a lot
of static in it and it cut the Chisenhall's house.
It's just a short distance from here, but the connectivity
is poor. Jumped in my truck and I drove over there.
(17:48):
I pulled in behind Christian. I said, what's going on?
He said, they're not here as usual. I'm here to
pick up Jaden and there's nobody here at the house.
I said, well, what are you going to do? He said,
I'm going to hang out and I'm gonna wait for
them to come back. And he asked me to go
ahead and leave. So I left as Christian asked me
to do. But I wish I would have stayed. And
(18:15):
as I walked in the door to my house, my
phone rang again. It was Christian. This time he said, dead.
This guy's over here telling me to shut the f up.
I said, Christian, who, He said pat. I drove over there.
When I arrived at the house, it was quiet, it
(18:38):
was serene. I thought something about, this is not quite right.
And as I walked across the yard and stepped up
upon the steps and saw the window closest to the
door had been pushed in slightly at the top, kind
of like a double hung window.
Speaker 7 (18:56):
Where you would fold it down.
Speaker 6 (18:58):
I had reached out my right hand and ring it orbell.
And I looked at my immediate right and there was
Christian laying on.
Speaker 7 (19:03):
The ground, face down.
Speaker 6 (19:06):
I did not know what had happened to him. I
kneeled down by his side, and almost instantaneous, police cars
began to come from everywhere Harney County Sheriff Department. They
jump out of their vehicles, weapons drawn, run up on
the porch see me, say we've got a call shots fired.
(19:28):
There's been a shooting. I said it must be my son.
They immediately pushed me off the porch. I then called
my wife, Dolly, and I say Christian's been shot. Dolly
streams and the phone goes dead.
Speaker 9 (19:48):
I just remember dropping the phone and I told my
daughter Crystal met Christian had been shot, and we just
ran out the door. I didn't have my purse, I
didn't have no shoes. When we got there, the EMT
was doing the sea pure my son and one of
(20:08):
the deputies came off the porch and said that we're
going to take Christian to wait mad and I said
that he's still alive, and he said yes.
Speaker 8 (20:17):
And we get to the hospital. Eventually the doctor comes
in and says he didn't make he didn't make.
Speaker 7 (20:45):
The doctor says he didn't make it. I fell to
the floor. I couldn't believe. I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 6 (21:02):
Dan told us the magnitude of his injuries at that point,
but one of the trauma nurses that was in a
room said, whatever happened, he was trying.
Speaker 7 (21:12):
To get out of there.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Dan, you're the person who had to walk Tony and
Dolly through the retelling. Anytime that we're asking someone to
do this, we're asking them to relive their trauma, and
we can absolutely hear it here. I mean, it is
sickening to listen to you going into that day. How
(21:36):
do you steal yourself for that? How do you sit
there as a grown man across from you is like crying.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
Yeah, I mean it is hard with somebody with the
obvious strength that Tony has. You know, he's a strong
man who is very much sort of in control, and
then to see that breakdown and to see him be
overcome with emotion and all you want to do is
to comfort, you know, you kind of want to stop
and express sympathy, which you know you can't. You have
(22:05):
to just let him talk and tell his story. And
I think one of the big moments for me was
when he says he goes to the house and talks
to Christian, and Christian's like, they're not here, and I'm
going to wait for them, And Tony was going to
wait with him, like, well, I will stay here with you, son,
(22:25):
and Christian tells him to go home. Just no, it'll
make things worth just leave, and Tony leaving to go
back to his own house and leaving Christian there. You
could just see on Tony's face He's like, I wish
I hadn't done that. I just wish I'd stayed that
maybe Christian would still be alive.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
The guilt is so clear. It's in his voice, but
his face. You can see the clouds coming over him
when he says that, and his feeling of guilt and
his knowing that that one small thing driving down the
road for a minute could have changed everything had he not.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
I mean, I'm amazed that people can actually even tell
these stories without falling apart. I mean, I couldn't do it.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
No, no, And you know, Poe and I early on
had a lot of conversations about how to give people
space versus like predatory, like trying to get people to cry.
You know, and in the world of documentary you have
two different people. You have people like Poe that are like,
I'm going to let you sit in silence so that
(23:32):
you can say all the things that you need to say,
because it's going to hurt. I've been on the other
side of it. I have been interviewed about like hard, hard,
uncomfortable things in my life, and I have felt that
predatory energy where it's like, let's get her to cry,
and so I never ever wanted to put anyone else
in that position.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
We butted heads. Well, yeah, because I didn't understand what
I was asking because you felt like it was Hillary
wanted to do what we all do and reach out
and tell them it's.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Okay and that Dan's talking about and try to.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Make it better. Hilly always wants to try to make
it better. I have learned. And I look like a fool,
I'm sure, but I have a very expressive face and
I show them what I'm feeling and my sympathy and
my empathy as I'm listening to them and looking at
them and letting them. But you have to let that silence.
You have to let them process it and speak their truth.
(24:24):
And so Hillary and I negotiating how she would interact
and not do her automatic take care of them.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Sorry, I'm sorry, You're a great sister, You're a great
you know dad.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
It's not your fault, like that kind of thing that's
so instinctive to us. To try to make it feel better,
you have to just listen and hear and give them
that space. And it took a while for you to
trust in that process.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Well, yeah, I mean, it is really difficult walking through
the worst part of your life and doing it on camera,
and doing it with a whole bunch of strangers that
you hope will honor your story in the edit. It's
a vulnerability that is really hard to describe. And so
I never wanted our show to be predatory in that way.
(25:06):
The difference between like acting jobs I've done and the
work that we do here is that I had been
working in an environment where you watch people try to
make themselves cry. It's their job, right.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Try to make someone else cry.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yeah, it's like you're trying to get an emotion here
watching Tony try not to fall apart, try not to cry,
try to remain clear in the midst of you know,
obviously walking through something so dark, sharing.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
His drama and living it. It was so raw and
real with him.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
Yeah, we're asking them to go back to that moment,
which is just the most horrific moment of their lives.
And Dolly also, I mean, she presents in a very
different way. She tends to speak a little faster and
without taking breaths. You know, her tension and her emotion
is in her chest. It weighs on it. So with
Dolly it was also like slowing her down a little bit,
(26:03):
because I think her way of dealing with the trauma
was to sort of kind of get through it and
go quicker, where Tony kind of slowed down a little bit.
And it was interesting to talk to the both of
them and see how they both kept their emotion where
they held their emotion.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
You know, we learned from Dolly during our time with
them that she works in an ICU where you're dealing
with high stress situations all the time and you just
have to compartmentalize your feelings and deal with them later.
And so this makes sense.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Also Tony, where he was so strong in his vulnerability
and he does break and it just never doesn't bring
me to tears, but he also regroups like the bottom
doesn't fall out. He walks through it in that incredibly
stoic but yet emotional way, and then he regroups and
(26:54):
he continues forth, and it was something to witness. It
was really something to witness.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
It's a step by step account that we don't normally
get from family members. Usually we get a bird's eye view,
and it's very like wide and I got a phone
call that my loved one is dead, or I showed
up at the house and they were gone, And Tony
is walking us through step by step. I got a
phone call, I went over there, I was there, I
(27:21):
came home, I get another phone call, I get in
my car, I get there, I put my arm out
to ring the doorbell. You know, it's so step by
step that we can walk it with him, And I
cannot imagine the horror show of looking down and seeing
my child face down on a front porch and then
(27:43):
have law enforcement show up and draw guns on me
as I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with my kid.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
You definitely can see it as he's walking us through
his experience. He's seeing it in his head. I have
no doubt. Yeah, he is visualizing every single frame that
came into view as he's doing that, and we can
see it with him because of the way He's telling
his story.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Everything Tony's telling us, if you close your eyes, you
can envision it. But we usually do help viewers a
bit here, you know, we give them visuals on screen
that can set them into Tony's perspective. And so, Andrew,
I want to direct this line of questioning to you.
We do recreations in order to help visually give the
(28:38):
information that our audience is hearing. But this episode was
a little bit different. Tony actually participated in the recreations
that we were doing for this storytelling. Is this a
rare circumstance that you have someone so closely connected to
the death helping you with the recreation?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yes, you know, I was. Actually this just sort of happened.
We knew that we would have to do something of
Christian traveling around in his car and the back and
forth of Tony between his house and Katie's house. And
I'm just talking to Tony and he's like, oh, yeah,
I've got Christian's car still. Oh yeah, we've got all
(29:21):
of his stuff still. He opens the garage door and
there's the car. This family has clung onto all of
Christian's belongings all these years, and they haven't let go
or parted with any of them. And the one item
that was of relevance was his actual vehicle with which
he arrived at Katie's house that day. And that's incredibly unusual.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
So what happens, I mean, you say, like, yes, we'd
love to use the actual car that Christian drove, but
then who drives it and where do you park it
in order to film these things?
Speaker 5 (29:56):
Right?
Speaker 2 (29:56):
And something that I would never ever ask of who's
the family member or the bereaved of a victim, is
can you help us out? I asked him. I said, well,
can we use the car? And he's like sure, can
I help you out? And then he's like, anything you want,
And I said, well we need to drive from here
and there. He's like, well, I'll do it all for you.
(30:17):
So he was willing to actually participate and play the
character basically of himself in our recreation.
Speaker 4 (30:25):
He really sort of actually drove around walking us through
the events of the day that he did experience that
he experienced himself. So it was really unusual for us
to get that. And so it was Tony in his
car driving around the neighborhood, and then Christian's car in
the driveway as if it was parked at the Chisenhall's house.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Having physically retraced the steps with him for the listener
at home. What is the proximity between these two houses,
the one where Christian grew up and then the one
where the Chisenhalls are now.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Two or three miles?
Speaker 5 (30:56):
Yeah, it doesn't take long to drive.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Did that strike you that day as Tony was kind
of guiding.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
You, Of course it did. I mean literally, Tony arrives
at the Chisenhall house to find Christian laying on the
porch within a minute or two of him being shot.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
I mean, he's there right before and he's there right
after him. I mean these are parallel storytelling, And that's
what's amazing about this particular episode is we literally have
this blow by blow from different perspectives of the same
exact tiny amount of time where life changed for everyone.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
How early in your interview with Tony and Dolly do
you ask them to walk you through all of this
super intense subject matter.
Speaker 5 (31:41):
Well, we tend to not jump right into that.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Yeah, I mean I can't imagine a more awkward Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
It already destroys the rest of your interview. Yeah, if
you do it too soon, like you can't get nuts
and bolts and facts and other things. Generally, we like
to lead with who's this person, what's your family? Like,
how'd you end up here? Tell us about Christian, tell
us about you and Dolly, tell us about your family,
all of that stuff, so that there's happy, so that
(32:06):
you're involved in the good, beautiful parts of their life
before tragedy strikes.
Speaker 5 (32:11):
Yeah, once you hit the tragedy, you can't go back. Yeah,
Often the interview is over. That's the tone.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
There is no anything but tragedy.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Or aftermath of tragedy and investigation and things like that.
But you can't get back to the life and the
humanness of the victim and whoever else and whatever else
happened before Exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
We talked quite a bit about a lot of things
before we got to this story, and then we took
a break after he told this story. You know, it's okay,
let's stop now for a little bit. You know, you
have to stop at a certain point and take a break.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Was there ever a version of this specific episode where
we didn't lead with Tony and Dolly telling us their story.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
Sure, but none of those other versions felt right. Tony
and Dolly's storytelling was just so powerful for me.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
It's one of the surprises of filmmaking. Essentially, who would
have thought that Tony would be such a great storyteller.
And the part of the story that he's telling perfectly
matches with the nine one one audio, which became extremely
important to starting the show. That's not something you actually plan,
it's something you discover.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. So we will
be diving into those nine one one calls later. And
what you guys haven't heard yet is this kind of
overlap of what's happening at the Chisenhall's house with Tony
arriving to find his son.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
And you don't just discovered in the field, you then
discover it in the edit. And that's why with documentary,
the real writing, the story comes in the edit. Written
we can know what we're looking for and things we
need to hit. We go in the field, we discover more,
We get more than we need. We don't know exactly
how the different pieces are going to fit together, so
we just get a fast amount. But you know, I
always start thinking editorially in the field. I can't help it.
(33:54):
And then when you get in the edit, you have
an idea and then often you mix it up and
scarebbled around three or four times and you figure out
where it's supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
So at the end of going through all of this
with Tony, what is his demeanor?
Speaker 5 (34:10):
Yeah, he was somber.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
I mean, he was definitely wanting to help tell the
story and was very happy to do it. But afterwards,
when we stopped and we were talking, you could just
see it on his face. Reliving that day was hard.
I mean you could just tell he was definitely feeling somber.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Tony is so deep, I mean, you just you can
see what's happening with him, and he's just so deep
and so stoic at the same time, but you can
see his emotion.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
He parted ways with me with a cigar he did.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yeah, I can't imagine, like, you know, when we pack
up all of our stuff, we leave and we go
home and we start prepping for the next day. But
then Tony and Dolly sit down, having just walked through
the worst day of their life, and I can't imagine
that feeling. You know, I know how heavy it feels
for us, I can't imagine how heavy it is for
them retracing those steps and maybe he's done it a
(35:02):
million times in the last ten years.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
He's certainly done it in his mind. I mean he's
haunted by having listened to Christian and gone home. He
said it, and you could feel it, like to your core.
He's gone over that morning every day. I would imagine.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
That's it for this week's episode of True Crime Story
It Couldn't Happen Here, But be sure to join us
next week as we dive deeper into the Christian Griggs case.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Can it counting?
Speaker 7 (35:34):
Now?
Speaker 3 (35:34):
One?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
We want your name.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Exactly what happened, sir?
Speaker 9 (35:39):
I just call for us?
Speaker 3 (35:43):
Was threatening in the door, he let in the win.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
He shocked nobody. Join us next week as we continue
to roll up our sleeves and dig in. Thank you
so much for joining us. If you haven't watched Sundance
TV's True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you can
catch all of our episodes streaming on AMC Plus. For
(36:10):
more information about this and other cases we've covered, follow
at ice HH stories on Instagram. True Crime Story It
Couldn't Happen Here was produced by Mischief Farm in association
with Bungalow Media and Entertainment Authentic Management Productions and Figdonia
(36:31):
in partnership with Sundance TV. Executive producers are me, Hillary Burton,
Morgan Liz Deecessor, Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and Meg Mortimer.
Producers are Maggie Robinson, Katz and Libby Siegel. Our audio
engineer is Brendan Dalton, with original music by Philip Radiotes.
(36:52):
We want to say a special thank you to everyone
who participated, but especially the families impacted by our cases.
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