March 5, 2024 • 30 mins
In the civil suit, a jury found that Pat Chisenhall was not acting in self-defense and was responsible for the death of Christian Griggs, awarding $250,000 to Christian Grigg’s estate. While this was an important step towards justice, Dolly, Tony, and the entire Griggs family continue to be vocal about the fact that the DA has a responsibility: to bring criminal charges against Pat Chisenhall. The Griggs continue to fight for Christian and for justice.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Last episode, we covered the civil trial
in the suit against Pat Chisenhall for the wrongful death
(00:23):
of Christian Griggs. At the end of that trial, a
unanimous jury of twelve found Pat Chisenhall did not act
in self defense when he killed Christian Griggs, which for
me translates to this was not a justified homicide. But still,
even after the jury made that decision, the county continued
(00:48):
to refuse to press criminal charges against Pat Chisenhall. And
so this episode we're going to talk about how much
local elections matter and how despite their continued grief over
the loss of their son, the fight for Dolly and
Tony Griggs is not over. I'm Hillary Burton Morgan and
(01:09):
this is true crime story. It couldn't happen here. Hey everyone,
I'm Hillary, and you know our team. We have Andrew,
Poe and Dan. All Right, you guys, So the Griggs,
(01:31):
they've been asking people to look at this case and
when we visited with the Griggs family. It was around
Valentine's Day in twenty twenty two, and the Griggs were
getting ready for the local elections for sheriff that were
happening later in November. So they were really advocating for
a guy that was running against Sheriff Coats. His name
was Reggie Watson, and there was a lot of action
(01:54):
surrounding just trying to get someone else in a position
of authority that would actually look at Christian's case.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Sheriff Coats is up for a relapse in November, and
so are you guys getting involved?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
And it's absolutely we will door knock and absolutely, I
think I would say the Unfortunately, a lot of times
in a small town like this, it's a culture situation
and you end up in a situation picking the best
of the worst.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I mean, if you've come up under the old guy,
chances are you're just a different shade of the same color.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
And that's exactly what Sheriff Coach is in the same
thing with Suzanne Matthews. Suzanne Matthews DA came behind Vernon Stewart.
She was raised underneath Vernon Stewart and her tutelage sheriff
coach the same thing. He was raised under me sheriff
for Allins who was in the office at the time
when this happened. It's a cultural thing, and the thing
is when the people oldest in the organization sets the culture.
(02:54):
When new people come, they either assimilate and integrate or
they leave.
Speaker 6 (02:58):
But change can come.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Change is coming to this area people that you know,
Like you said, you see a lot of new subdivisions
coming in. You see a lot of people moving out
this way. So it takes time. Both the culture can change,
but people. I think I see more people standing up
now going out fighting these injustice, especially in this little
small town here than when I first got here. So
(03:21):
I think that awareness of what's going on is one
of the biggest things to bring a awareness to the situation.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Now, this election happened in November of twenty twenty two,
so we know already how it turned out. Sheriff Coats
was re elected. Change did not happen this time around.
So Wayne Coates won the election with almost sixty seven
percent of the vote, leaving Reggie Watson, a black candidate,
(03:48):
with about thirty three percent of the vote. So you know,
when you're looking at that two to one ratio. We
know that there's a black community in Harnett County. We
know that there are complaintsout racial injustice with law enforcement
and Harnett County. We know there are people who are
looking for a change there. But are they outnumbered by
(04:10):
the people who are perfectly happy to keep things the
way they are with someone like Sheriff Cots.
Speaker 6 (04:16):
Well, clearly the vote tells you there are.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I mean maybe, But the bigger problem I'm saying is
that when we look at the numbers, you know, and
I want to say this really clearly, of more than
eighty three thousand registered voters, only about thirty six thousand,
five hundred of those people turned out. You know, that's
(04:40):
less than fifty percent of registered voters.
Speaker 7 (04:43):
That's something Dolly and TONI really spoke specifically with us about.
People pay so much attention to national elections. You know,
people pay attention to the presidential election, the statewide elections,
but doll Antoni are like, pay attention to the local elections.
That's what's really going to affect your day to day life.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
And it comes back to vote. You know, knowing who
your sheriff is, who your city councilman is who the
clerk of records is. All of these things come in together,
you know, those people that you put in power to
make these decisions, and they use their prosecutorial discretion, you know,
in such an ill fashion.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Let's say there's a new sheriff in Harnett County. You
know what is the Griggs end goal?
Speaker 7 (05:23):
Then?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Is it accountability? You know, is the goal to put
Patchis and Hall in prison? Or is it something else?
I mean, what does justice even look like here?
Speaker 6 (05:34):
I think they just want him to be accountable and
have to defend his actions.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
But what is accountability? You know, it's jail time in
the criminal justice system, and in some states, including North Carolina,
there's still death penalty in murder cases, but you're never
charged and found guilty and then get to go home
for murder.
Speaker 6 (05:55):
He didn't even get charged.
Speaker 7 (05:57):
Yeah, so I think it really does come back to
account ability. And Tony tells us that pretty eloquently.
Speaker 8 (06:03):
I don't think justice is to be acquired. I don't
think we can get justice. You can't bring Christian back.
All the things that Christian would have done and the
person that he would be. Christians should be here today.
You can't fix that, but what we can get is
accountability and ensure that this doesn't happen to anyone else again.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
And Dan Tony is pretty clear about where he thinks
that accountability needs to come from, right.
Speaker 7 (06:26):
Yeah, someplace other than Harnett County.
Speaker 8 (06:28):
Because we had the trial and the trial came back
unanimous verdict from twelve jurors that in fact, it was
not self defense. It was not defense of himself, not
defense of his home or his daughter. So you can't
claim Castle doctrine if it's not self defense. And if
it was self defense, then it would have made him
immune to a civil trial. But in fact, we had
(06:50):
a civil trial and he lost. He was found negligent
of killing Christian in not self defense. So now what
we have is a dilemma wrapped in an enigma. A
dear ligon of duty to arrest that man on that
day creates a problem because now you've just lost a
(07:13):
civil trial that said you should have arrested him because
it was not self defense. Justice and accountability cannot come
out of Hern County. They have a clear conflict of interest.
It must be someone a special prosecutor outside of Hern
County to do an investigation and a prosecution.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
And the Griggs have put a lot of effort into
this outreach. You know, They've made calls to the North
Carolina Attorney General and essentially they've been met with silence.
And I just don't know how anyone can meet this
case with silence. I mean, I think the idea that
any of us can walk away from a narrative like
(07:54):
this unchanged is just unfathomable. And for the Griggs, who
continue their fight, I don't want to be a journalist.
I want to be an advocate. There was a big
conversation when we started our show as to what credit
I wanted. They're like, do you want to be called
the creator? Do you want to be called the host?
Do you want to be called whatever? I said, I
want to be called advocate. And there were some people
(08:15):
that like kind of made faces and they're like, why
would you want that to be your credit?
Speaker 6 (08:19):
It's a weird title, but yeah, it suits.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Do you think we need more of that in this genre?
Speaker 6 (08:24):
Well, I mean, I think it's a dangerous thing for
us because we are not supposed to do that. You're
claiming a space that you're like, I'm with you, but
I'm different, and we would not feel comfortable even though
I am an advocate for truth and I am an
advocate as is this team for really shining a light
and for trying to use our craft and our skills
to help justice. You know, we are guided by some
(08:47):
different rules than you.
Speaker 7 (08:48):
We have to approach all of these stories. As journalists.
We do go in there looking for the facts. We
go in there looking to tell both sides of a story.
We want to sort of understand the larger picture. We
want to have a reason to be there, but we
want to be able to present the story in as
much of a way that we can that allows the
audience to really sort of understand what happened and not
be told. We're not telling them what to think. We're saying,
(09:11):
here's what happened.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
And that is the number one lesson I have learned
from the three of you is that rather than tell
people what I think or what I suspect happened, or
what to do or how to feel, you guys taught
me that if I just ask the questions and let
people tell their stories and then present it to the audience,
the audience will arrive at the same place I probably
(09:34):
am and maybe not, but most likely if we all
just listen to all of the information and bring light
to it, people will get there. And that's our job
is to ask the questions.
Speaker 6 (09:46):
I mean, I want them to make their own conclusion.
I just want them to have actually all the information
and not in weird slanted ways. I also want to say,
because we weren't able to speak with them, I'm not
going to wait in about pat but I want to
say that we often because there is a beautiful young
man whose life is gone and there's so many questions,
(10:10):
we don't spend time on Katie. We didn't get to
interview her. We did try with Christian's friend to illustrate
Christian's love and joy at being with her. But regardless
of justification, the situation all the way through is not
(10:33):
a good one for Katie when they tried to break
out on their own and go to Georgia, that as
a young mother with a husband who's at war, who's
coming home from war after having experienced death in front
of him, none of that could be easy. The difficulty
just of being a young parent, just of being a
(10:53):
parent to a newborn is so highly stressful, and regardless
of the situation. They're both going to feel like they're right.
She's going to feel like she has the right to
keep her kid the way she wants. He's going to
feel like he has the right to the custody. These
are normal emotions. These are two people. There's no doubt
that both of them love their child and that they're
(11:15):
trying really hard to gain some control in a very
difficult and uncontrollable situation. And I can imagine that morning.
I can understand Christian's anger at being denied access to
his daughter. I can also understand Katie's feeling of angst
and fear with a husband who's angry and who is
(11:36):
demanding his daughter when she wants to keep her daughter
close to her and they're having issues. And I don't
want to ignore her position and how difficult all of
this must have been and be for her.
Speaker 7 (11:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think that with almost all of
these cases, in these stories that we tell, we always
take the position that we don't really know exactly what happened.
We weren't there, We can't say this happened. We're not
going to pretend to. We're going to say, here's what
we know from the documentation, from the witness statements, from
what people are saying about this, from the recording. From
(12:10):
the recordings, we hear their own voices talking. We could
say here's what we know from here, and then we
can find places where we could call out the injustice
of Hey, why wasn't this investigation done differently? Why wasn't
this explored more deeply? Why doesn't another law enforcement agency
take a second look at this? You know, we could
be outraged by all of these things.
Speaker 6 (12:32):
We can even put our opinion in like why was
lethal force the answer to this situation? I mean, again,
we don't know exactly, but we do know he didn't
have any weapons. Nobody ever said he did.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
It feels really ugly that lethal force, involving four shots
to Christians back was deemed the only way to diffuse
the situation. I think something that we really need to
(13:05):
talk about here is that when Dolly and Tony lost
their son, it was not their only loss. You know,
they lost access to their grandchild, Jaden, the little girl
that Christian was fighting to have time with when he
was killed in October of twenty thirteen.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
The last time I saw Jaden was it was a
Labor Day twenty thirteen, Christian and Katie had went to
a North Vrolina State football game and so I got
to watch her that weekend. And so that weekend we
went to breakfast at Cracker Barrel, we went to a
(13:43):
movies to see. We had actually a little debate over
I wanted to see Monster Inc. And she wanted to
see what is the Blue Things?
Speaker 7 (13:53):
Smurfs.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah, she wanted to see the Smurfs and I don't
want to see the Smurfs. So she won. So we
saw the Smurfs and we went to the movie. And
then after the movies, we went to Toys of Us
and I said, well, you know what, it is your day.
You get to get whatever you want. And so she
was so excited and she went and got all the
toys that she wanted, and then we went home and
then her parents her mom got her the next day,
(14:16):
and Christian Ashley came in and got her the next day,
and she went and got in the car in her
car seat, and then she actually got out of her
car seat and came back. She said, Grandma, this was
the best weekend ever. This was the best day ever,
and gave me a hug. You know, it was the
last time I seen her.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
When I was at their house. They also went through
some belongings of theirs that they had held on too,
that they were hoping they could give to Jaden one day.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
Each unit would have a bag tag and they would
have different colors on them so that units could segregate
their bags easily off of the transport. Yeah. Yeah, and
then they put your name on it.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So and then what is this. I see that there's oh, yeah,
uniform it.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, this is so I gave I made one of
these for out of all of his uniforms, and hoping
to give it to his daughter one day. You made these.
I didn't make it. I had someone made.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
To make it.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, beautiful idea.
Speaker 8 (15:09):
And they actually took his uniform and they wore in
Iraq and actually cut him up in the patches and
put him into the quill.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
It's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
What a wonderful idea.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So hopefully that one day I'll be able to put
it to her so she can have a part of
her death with her. I always think of her and
everything that I do when it comes to Christian.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Yeah, so she's a living piece of him. You said
earlier that these kids over here.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
We started shortly after Christian had passed away, hoping that
we would get to see her. I would get her
birthday present, Christmas presents and things like that, and of
course we didn't get to see her. I didn't know
where to send it too, so I just you know,
I just left those that I got collected. So hopefully
she's probably out growing all of them. The most of
(16:00):
are Barbie Doll.
Speaker 6 (16:02):
They have not been allowed contact with their granddaughter since
his death.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Even after the civil trial in twenty eighteen where Pat
Chisenhall has been found responsible for this death, for this
wrongful death, one would think a family court would rule, yeah,
you should be able to see her. You know, it's
just so so messy, and it's the stuff that no
one wants to dig into because it's complicated and uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (16:26):
Well, her mother would have the rights. The grandparents don't
have rights, unlet's they can prove that the parent doesn't.
And since Katie's got the right to have custody and
control over her daughter, no family court can demand that
grandparents have the rights to visit.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Ultimately, I mean this goes back to something we discussed
in an earlier episode. The way the Griggs speak about
the Chisenhall family is very careful, right Like, every decision
they make about how they proceed legally and how they
present this case to people like us or to the
media is always done with that lens of how can
(17:00):
we protect our granddaughter in this otherwise horrific scenario. They
are very concerned about their granddaughter, who they love very
much and who they talk about all the time, and
I think there is great hope that they will eventually
reconnect with her. I think there is also a great
deal of fear that she will be mad at them
(17:23):
for pushing to have her grandfather investigated.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
It's the most tragic part of the whole thing is
that they lost their son and they lost their granddaughter.
I am so saddened that Jaden is missing out on
having these loving, loving grandparents.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I think that is part of what broke me when
we spoke with the Greggs. You know, this unconditional love
that they have for their granddaughter that they don't get
to share with her directly. You know, we learned about
it on our final day of shooting. I think it
was that final day it was hard.
Speaker 7 (17:59):
That's the day that Griggs took us to the Cemetery
to visit Christian's grave.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I'm probably gonna get upset talking about it again. I
was so upset that day, and it was really we'd
sat with them all day and it was like the
end of the day and the sun was setting and
the temperature had dropped like twenty degrees and so I
was wearing a dress that was better for the earlier
part of the day. But then we went out and
it was drizzling and it was that bone chill cold
(18:25):
that you only get when it's really wet and nasty outside.
And it was a chilling situation. It was chilling weather,
like every part of it makes your body kind of
tense up. And Tony and Dolly, just in this bad
weather and long day where they've had to relive this trauma,
(18:47):
they took me to their most sacred space and sat
with all of us, and I didn't know what to say,
Like what do you even say in that moment? And
then if you sit there in silence like a lump,
you just look like an idiot and that you don't
know how to comfort someone, And so that was, Yeah,
that was a hard one. That was a really hard one. Andrew,
(19:09):
can you talk about filming very personal scenes like this
one in the cemetery.
Speaker 9 (19:14):
From our point of view when we're filming it, we
don't know what's going to happen. You don't know how
people are going to react or where they are in
their journey with their loved one. So sometimes there's smiles,
Sometimes there's a good memory, an anecdote. Sometimes there's a
small ritual, touching the gravestone or the marker, straightening the flowers,
(19:38):
putting an object back upright that's been placed upon the marker.
It's a fine balance between asking questions versus just observing
and waiting and watching. So you shouldn't feel guilty that
you didn't know what to say, because actually no one
knows what to say. You just have to wait and observe.
(20:00):
And certainly that was very uncomfortable and cold and windy,
and just see what happens. That's really all you can do,
and that's the respectful thing to do. There's nothing to say.
What is there to say?
Speaker 6 (20:13):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
I mean, I you guys can see it on me now,
I'm like, I just hated it. I hated I hated
having the camera on us. It felt performative. I didn't
want to make these people pose in front of something
that was so personal and sad and awful. But we
needed to have the shot, you know, we needed people
to know what it looks like and to know what
(20:35):
they built for their son and for their granddaughter. And
I just could not wait for the camera to be
off because I wanted to be there in privacy with them.
But I mean that's not production, you know, you don't
get to go and then just have private time with people.
But of all the places that we've been, now, you
know that one that really really messed me up because
(20:56):
you can see, you know, you could see the thought
that they put into it. They build a headstone for
their son that included a picture of him holding his
daughter because they thought it through for the next couple decades.
You know, they knew she was not going to be
allowed to go anytime soon, but they hoped she would
(21:17):
come someday. How often they.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Come out, I try to come out once a week,
but since I take care of my mother, I don't
get to come out as often as I would like.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Yeah, says him, Yeah, so did this fitch for him that.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Day? They can have it. I always have it to
come out and to sit with them.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
You guys put her picture on here with how important
is it.
Speaker 6 (22:22):
To you to have her know how much her dad
loved her.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
It was very, very important to know that the reason
that he's not here today was it because he was
trying to have far a part of his life. It's
very important.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
They're still living in that community and fighting that fight.
I don't know how they have the stamina for it.
I would run. I would never want to look at
that place ever again. Ever, And they've stayed. And they've stayed,
I think because haus they're hoping that their granddaughter will
have a relationship with them one day.
Speaker 9 (23:05):
I'm sure that they would like nothing more than to
sit on that bench with their granddaughter one day. But
Christian's death is not private. It's something that affects everyone.
I mean, I understand why it's difficult to do, and
there's a feeling that it should be a private moment.
(23:25):
But they are sharing with us their private moment because
somewhere out there, maybe before, maybe in the future, the
same thing could happen to someone else. They're sharing that
with us, you know, in a way that is a
privilege for us to see. And that's what we do.
(23:46):
That's our responsibility, and to not share that fully is
to gloss over, basically the very difficult facts of their
life and the very huge tragedy that Christian is dead.
Speaker 6 (23:59):
I purpose, and we are, as Andrew said, we're there
to bear witness. We can't fix it. It hurts. It
hurts you because.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
All of us, we all like it hurts. Go home
that day and function properly.
Speaker 6 (24:12):
But I'm just saying when you're talking about hating that situation,
and that's been something we've been processing with you from
the beginning, because you want to fix things. That's why
you're into advocacy, and you want to jump in there
and you want to tell them it's okay, and you
want to tell them what you're going to do. And
it's been this real pull for you, this real tense,
difficult thing for you to hold back. But we are
(24:33):
there to bear witness. It's their story and we are
there to give them that platform and they want to
reclaim this narrative.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
When you guys think about this case and covering this case,
how do you feel now?
Speaker 6 (24:49):
I mean, I'm proud that we're doing this case. This
was one of the ones that stands out that I
just really want to have this work that we've done
make a difference because it's so in limbo, in such
a horrible way for people who are in so much pain,
and there's no I don't like to use the word closure,
but nobody can move on because it's just limbo. I'm
(25:11):
proud of it. I can't say I'm hopeful necessarily, but
I do hope that we can continue to talk about
this and get this out there. But I'm also like,
it's very interesting to look back and listen and re
listen and relook at some of the stuff because we
are still arguing together about well, this could have happened,
that could have happened, Like, nothing makes more sense now
(25:32):
than it did then.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
It just becomes more and more and more confusing because
no narratives match, the evidence doesn't match, the story doesn't match,
the testimony doesn't match, the ballistics, like nothing lines up,
And the more you look at it, the more confusing
it becomes. Yeah, for me, the reason I wanted to
(26:02):
cover this case in particular in the podcast is because
I am hopeful some of the cases we cover there
is not a clear path forward. There is not a
call to arms or even an ask that the audience
can participate in in this one, though, asking for oversight
from the state, from the North Carolina Attorney General, and
(26:25):
from the North Carolina Governor, and from the media resources
in North Carolina, those Raleigh newspapers, the Charlotte newspapers, anything
that's centered there that is a call to arms. That
is stuff that people can get involved in and do
that will hopefully shed light on what is going on
in Harnett County, because while Christian Griggs case is a
(26:48):
thorn in the side of that Sheriff's department, they also
have a number of other complaints that also deserve to
be looked at in depth. And if our little show
can help rally those voices, that's worth our effort.
Speaker 7 (27:03):
Absolutely, how do you feel, No, I mean absolutely. I
think that we have been hearing so much about what's
been going on in Harnett County that beyond Christian Griggs
specific story, that is an impetus for other people in
the county to take a look and hold they're elected
officials accountable.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
That's great, Andrew, will you go back to Harnett County?
Speaker 6 (27:25):
Sure?
Speaker 9 (27:25):
I would go back to Harnett County.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
It was a beautiful town. I mean it was beautiful.
They have little, tiny main streets all five miles apart.
You know, all the little towns are so close together,
but they're their own little ecosystems. And I have gone
to the farmers' markets there on Sunday. I bought a
sunbonnet for my best friend's baby a couple months after
she was born, and got to walk around with her
(27:48):
in the baby Bjorn in that community. I have such
fond memories of this place, and I want it to
be safe, and I want it to be just, and
not just for people who look like me, but for
people like the Griggs family who deserve better.
Speaker 9 (28:06):
Well, I mean, will I drive up an unknown driveway
and knock on the door. Probably not. Will I be
speeding or running red lights there?
Speaker 7 (28:14):
Probably not.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Well, perhaps one reason to go back would be because
charges are filed.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
We hope there's a reason to go back. We hope
that we can go back because there's movement in the case.
That is our hope.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
All Right, you guys, that's it for our deep dive
into the Christian Griggs case. But as always, we encourage
you to stay active in your advocacy. So for more information,
You can follow Justice for Christian Griggs on Facebook and Instagram.
We're going to be taking just a brief hiatus, but
I want you to come back in the next couple
(28:59):
of weeks because I am going to be joined by
Christian's sister, Crystal, who was not able to take part
in the TV series, and I think it's really important
for us to hear her experience in the aftermath of
Christian's death. We're also going to hear some updates from
Scott Pogancy in the Brandon Woodruff case, So sit tight
and join us in just a couple weeks for that episode,
(29:22):
where we will also be giving you some very special announcements.
If you haven't watched Sundance TV's True Crime Story It
Couldn't Happen Here, you can catch all of our episodes
streaming on AMC Plus. For more information about this and
other cases we've covered, follow at ice HH stories on Instagram.
(29:46):
True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here was produced by
Mischief Farm in association with Bungalow Media and Entertainment, Authentic
Management Productions, and Figdonia in partnership with Sundance TV Executive
are Me Hillary Burton, Morgan, Liz Deccessory, Robert Friedman, Mike Powers,
and Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie Robinson Katz and Libby Siegel.
(30:11):
Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton, with original music by
Philip Radiotis. We want to say a special thank you
to everyone who participated, but especially the family's impacted by
our cases.
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Last episode, we covered the civil trial
in the suit against Pat Chisenhall for the wrongful death
(00:23):
of Christian Griggs. At the end of that trial, a
unanimous jury of twelve found Pat Chisenhall did not act
in self defense when he killed Christian Griggs, which for
me translates to this was not a justified homicide. But still,
even after the jury made that decision, the county continued
(00:48):
to refuse to press criminal charges against Pat Chisenhall. And
so this episode we're going to talk about how much
local elections matter and how despite their continued grief over
the loss of their son, the fight for Dolly and
Tony Griggs is not over. I'm Hillary Burton Morgan and
(01:09):
this is true crime story. It couldn't happen here. Hey everyone,
I'm Hillary, and you know our team. We have Andrew,
Poe and Dan. All Right, you guys, So the Griggs,
(01:31):
they've been asking people to look at this case and
when we visited with the Griggs family. It was around
Valentine's Day in twenty twenty two, and the Griggs were
getting ready for the local elections for sheriff that were
happening later in November. So they were really advocating for
a guy that was running against Sheriff Coats. His name
was Reggie Watson, and there was a lot of action
(01:54):
surrounding just trying to get someone else in a position
of authority that would actually look at Christian's case.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Sheriff Coats is up for a relapse in November, and
so are you guys getting involved?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
And it's absolutely we will door knock and absolutely, I
think I would say the Unfortunately, a lot of times
in a small town like this, it's a culture situation
and you end up in a situation picking the best
of the worst.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I mean, if you've come up under the old guy,
chances are you're just a different shade of the same color.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
And that's exactly what Sheriff Coach is in the same
thing with Suzanne Matthews. Suzanne Matthews DA came behind Vernon Stewart.
She was raised underneath Vernon Stewart and her tutelage sheriff
coach the same thing. He was raised under me sheriff
for Allins who was in the office at the time
when this happened. It's a cultural thing, and the thing
is when the people oldest in the organization sets the culture.
(02:54):
When new people come, they either assimilate and integrate or
they leave.
Speaker 6 (02:58):
But change can come.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Change is coming to this area people that you know,
Like you said, you see a lot of new subdivisions
coming in. You see a lot of people moving out
this way. So it takes time. Both the culture can change,
but people. I think I see more people standing up
now going out fighting these injustice, especially in this little
small town here than when I first got here. So
(03:21):
I think that awareness of what's going on is one
of the biggest things to bring a awareness to the situation.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Now, this election happened in November of twenty twenty two,
so we know already how it turned out. Sheriff Coats
was re elected. Change did not happen this time around.
So Wayne Coates won the election with almost sixty seven
percent of the vote, leaving Reggie Watson, a black candidate,
(03:48):
with about thirty three percent of the vote. So you know,
when you're looking at that two to one ratio. We
know that there's a black community in Harnett County. We
know that there are complaintsout racial injustice with law enforcement
and Harnett County. We know there are people who are
looking for a change there. But are they outnumbered by
(04:10):
the people who are perfectly happy to keep things the
way they are with someone like Sheriff Cots.
Speaker 6 (04:16):
Well, clearly the vote tells you there are.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I mean maybe, But the bigger problem I'm saying is
that when we look at the numbers, you know, and
I want to say this really clearly, of more than
eighty three thousand registered voters, only about thirty six thousand,
five hundred of those people turned out. You know, that's
(04:40):
less than fifty percent of registered voters.
Speaker 7 (04:43):
That's something Dolly and TONI really spoke specifically with us about.
People pay so much attention to national elections. You know,
people pay attention to the presidential election, the statewide elections,
but doll Antoni are like, pay attention to the local elections.
That's what's really going to affect your day to day life.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
And it comes back to vote. You know, knowing who
your sheriff is, who your city councilman is who the
clerk of records is. All of these things come in together,
you know, those people that you put in power to
make these decisions, and they use their prosecutorial discretion, you know,
in such an ill fashion.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Let's say there's a new sheriff in Harnett County. You
know what is the Griggs end goal?
Speaker 7 (05:23):
Then?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Is it accountability? You know, is the goal to put
Patchis and Hall in prison? Or is it something else?
I mean, what does justice even look like here?
Speaker 6 (05:34):
I think they just want him to be accountable and
have to defend his actions.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
But what is accountability? You know, it's jail time in
the criminal justice system, and in some states, including North Carolina,
there's still death penalty in murder cases, but you're never
charged and found guilty and then get to go home
for murder.
Speaker 6 (05:55):
He didn't even get charged.
Speaker 7 (05:57):
Yeah, so I think it really does come back to
account ability. And Tony tells us that pretty eloquently.
Speaker 8 (06:03):
I don't think justice is to be acquired. I don't
think we can get justice. You can't bring Christian back.
All the things that Christian would have done and the
person that he would be. Christians should be here today.
You can't fix that, but what we can get is
accountability and ensure that this doesn't happen to anyone else again.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
And Dan Tony is pretty clear about where he thinks
that accountability needs to come from, right.
Speaker 7 (06:26):
Yeah, someplace other than Harnett County.
Speaker 8 (06:28):
Because we had the trial and the trial came back
unanimous verdict from twelve jurors that in fact, it was
not self defense. It was not defense of himself, not
defense of his home or his daughter. So you can't
claim Castle doctrine if it's not self defense. And if
it was self defense, then it would have made him
immune to a civil trial. But in fact, we had
(06:50):
a civil trial and he lost. He was found negligent
of killing Christian in not self defense. So now what
we have is a dilemma wrapped in an enigma. A
dear ligon of duty to arrest that man on that
day creates a problem because now you've just lost a
(07:13):
civil trial that said you should have arrested him because
it was not self defense. Justice and accountability cannot come
out of Hern County. They have a clear conflict of interest.
It must be someone a special prosecutor outside of Hern
County to do an investigation and a prosecution.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
And the Griggs have put a lot of effort into
this outreach. You know, They've made calls to the North
Carolina Attorney General and essentially they've been met with silence.
And I just don't know how anyone can meet this
case with silence. I mean, I think the idea that
any of us can walk away from a narrative like
(07:54):
this unchanged is just unfathomable. And for the Griggs, who
continue their fight, I don't want to be a journalist.
I want to be an advocate. There was a big
conversation when we started our show as to what credit
I wanted. They're like, do you want to be called
the creator? Do you want to be called the host?
Do you want to be called whatever? I said, I
want to be called advocate. And there were some people
(08:15):
that like kind of made faces and they're like, why
would you want that to be your credit?
Speaker 6 (08:19):
It's a weird title, but yeah, it suits.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Do you think we need more of that in this genre?
Speaker 6 (08:24):
Well, I mean, I think it's a dangerous thing for
us because we are not supposed to do that. You're
claiming a space that you're like, I'm with you, but
I'm different, and we would not feel comfortable even though
I am an advocate for truth and I am an
advocate as is this team for really shining a light
and for trying to use our craft and our skills
to help justice. You know, we are guided by some
(08:47):
different rules than you.
Speaker 7 (08:48):
We have to approach all of these stories. As journalists.
We do go in there looking for the facts. We
go in there looking to tell both sides of a story.
We want to sort of understand the larger picture. We
want to have a reason to be there, but we
want to be able to present the story in as
much of a way that we can that allows the
audience to really sort of understand what happened and not
be told. We're not telling them what to think. We're saying,
(09:11):
here's what happened.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
And that is the number one lesson I have learned
from the three of you is that rather than tell
people what I think or what I suspect happened, or
what to do or how to feel, you guys taught
me that if I just ask the questions and let
people tell their stories and then present it to the audience,
the audience will arrive at the same place I probably
(09:34):
am and maybe not, but most likely if we all
just listen to all of the information and bring light
to it, people will get there. And that's our job
is to ask the questions.
Speaker 6 (09:46):
I mean, I want them to make their own conclusion.
I just want them to have actually all the information
and not in weird slanted ways. I also want to say,
because we weren't able to speak with them, I'm not
going to wait in about pat but I want to
say that we often because there is a beautiful young
man whose life is gone and there's so many questions,
(10:10):
we don't spend time on Katie. We didn't get to
interview her. We did try with Christian's friend to illustrate
Christian's love and joy at being with her. But regardless
of justification, the situation all the way through is not
(10:33):
a good one for Katie when they tried to break
out on their own and go to Georgia, that as
a young mother with a husband who's at war, who's
coming home from war after having experienced death in front
of him, none of that could be easy. The difficulty
just of being a young parent, just of being a
(10:53):
parent to a newborn is so highly stressful, and regardless
of the situation. They're both going to feel like they're right.
She's going to feel like she has the right to
keep her kid the way she wants. He's going to
feel like he has the right to the custody. These
are normal emotions. These are two people. There's no doubt
that both of them love their child and that they're
(11:15):
trying really hard to gain some control in a very
difficult and uncontrollable situation. And I can imagine that morning.
I can understand Christian's anger at being denied access to
his daughter. I can also understand Katie's feeling of angst
and fear with a husband who's angry and who is
(11:36):
demanding his daughter when she wants to keep her daughter
close to her and they're having issues. And I don't
want to ignore her position and how difficult all of
this must have been and be for her.
Speaker 7 (11:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think that with almost all of
these cases, in these stories that we tell, we always
take the position that we don't really know exactly what happened.
We weren't there, We can't say this happened. We're not
going to pretend to. We're going to say, here's what
we know from the documentation, from the witness statements, from
what people are saying about this, from the recording. From
(12:10):
the recordings, we hear their own voices talking. We could
say here's what we know from here, and then we
can find places where we could call out the injustice
of Hey, why wasn't this investigation done differently? Why wasn't
this explored more deeply? Why doesn't another law enforcement agency
take a second look at this? You know, we could
be outraged by all of these things.
Speaker 6 (12:32):
We can even put our opinion in like why was
lethal force the answer to this situation? I mean, again,
we don't know exactly, but we do know he didn't
have any weapons. Nobody ever said he did.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
It feels really ugly that lethal force, involving four shots
to Christians back was deemed the only way to diffuse
the situation. I think something that we really need to
(13:05):
talk about here is that when Dolly and Tony lost
their son, it was not their only loss. You know,
they lost access to their grandchild, Jaden, the little girl
that Christian was fighting to have time with when he
was killed in October of twenty thirteen.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
The last time I saw Jaden was it was a
Labor Day twenty thirteen, Christian and Katie had went to
a North Vrolina State football game and so I got
to watch her that weekend. And so that weekend we
went to breakfast at Cracker Barrel, we went to a
(13:43):
movies to see. We had actually a little debate over
I wanted to see Monster Inc. And she wanted to
see what is the Blue Things?
Speaker 7 (13:53):
Smurfs.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah, she wanted to see the Smurfs and I don't
want to see the Smurfs. So she won. So we
saw the Smurfs and we went to the movie. And
then after the movies, we went to Toys of Us
and I said, well, you know what, it is your day.
You get to get whatever you want. And so she
was so excited and she went and got all the
toys that she wanted, and then we went home and
then her parents her mom got her the next day,
(14:16):
and Christian Ashley came in and got her the next day,
and she went and got in the car in her
car seat, and then she actually got out of her
car seat and came back. She said, Grandma, this was
the best weekend ever. This was the best day ever,
and gave me a hug. You know, it was the
last time I seen her.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
When I was at their house. They also went through
some belongings of theirs that they had held on too,
that they were hoping they could give to Jaden one day.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
Each unit would have a bag tag and they would
have different colors on them so that units could segregate
their bags easily off of the transport. Yeah. Yeah, and
then they put your name on it.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So and then what is this. I see that there's oh, yeah,
uniform it.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, this is so I gave I made one of
these for out of all of his uniforms, and hoping
to give it to his daughter one day. You made these.
I didn't make it. I had someone made.
Speaker 6 (15:07):
To make it.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, beautiful idea.
Speaker 8 (15:09):
And they actually took his uniform and they wore in
Iraq and actually cut him up in the patches and
put him into the quill.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
It's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
What a wonderful idea.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So hopefully that one day I'll be able to put
it to her so she can have a part of
her death with her. I always think of her and
everything that I do when it comes to Christian.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Yeah, so she's a living piece of him. You said
earlier that these kids over here.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
We started shortly after Christian had passed away, hoping that
we would get to see her. I would get her
birthday present, Christmas presents and things like that, and of
course we didn't get to see her. I didn't know
where to send it too, so I just you know,
I just left those that I got collected. So hopefully
she's probably out growing all of them. The most of
(16:00):
are Barbie Doll.
Speaker 6 (16:02):
They have not been allowed contact with their granddaughter since
his death.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Even after the civil trial in twenty eighteen where Pat
Chisenhall has been found responsible for this death, for this
wrongful death, one would think a family court would rule, yeah,
you should be able to see her. You know, it's
just so so messy, and it's the stuff that no
one wants to dig into because it's complicated and uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (16:26):
Well, her mother would have the rights. The grandparents don't
have rights, unlet's they can prove that the parent doesn't.
And since Katie's got the right to have custody and
control over her daughter, no family court can demand that
grandparents have the rights to visit.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Ultimately, I mean this goes back to something we discussed
in an earlier episode. The way the Griggs speak about
the Chisenhall family is very careful, right Like, every decision
they make about how they proceed legally and how they
present this case to people like us or to the
media is always done with that lens of how can
(17:00):
we protect our granddaughter in this otherwise horrific scenario. They
are very concerned about their granddaughter, who they love very
much and who they talk about all the time, and
I think there is great hope that they will eventually
reconnect with her. I think there is also a great
deal of fear that she will be mad at them
(17:23):
for pushing to have her grandfather investigated.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
It's the most tragic part of the whole thing is
that they lost their son and they lost their granddaughter.
I am so saddened that Jaden is missing out on
having these loving, loving grandparents.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I think that is part of what broke me when
we spoke with the Greggs. You know, this unconditional love
that they have for their granddaughter that they don't get
to share with her directly. You know, we learned about
it on our final day of shooting. I think it
was that final day it was hard.
Speaker 7 (17:59):
That's the day that Griggs took us to the Cemetery
to visit Christian's grave.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I'm probably gonna get upset talking about it again. I
was so upset that day, and it was really we'd
sat with them all day and it was like the
end of the day and the sun was setting and
the temperature had dropped like twenty degrees and so I
was wearing a dress that was better for the earlier
part of the day. But then we went out and
it was drizzling and it was that bone chill cold
(18:25):
that you only get when it's really wet and nasty outside.
And it was a chilling situation. It was chilling weather,
like every part of it makes your body kind of
tense up. And Tony and Dolly, just in this bad
weather and long day where they've had to relive this trauma,
(18:47):
they took me to their most sacred space and sat
with all of us, and I didn't know what to say,
Like what do you even say in that moment? And
then if you sit there in silence like a lump,
you just look like an idiot and that you don't
know how to comfort someone, And so that was, Yeah,
that was a hard one. That was a really hard one. Andrew,
(19:09):
can you talk about filming very personal scenes like this
one in the cemetery.
Speaker 9 (19:14):
From our point of view when we're filming it, we
don't know what's going to happen. You don't know how
people are going to react or where they are in
their journey with their loved one. So sometimes there's smiles,
Sometimes there's a good memory, an anecdote. Sometimes there's a
small ritual, touching the gravestone or the marker, straightening the flowers,
(19:38):
putting an object back upright that's been placed upon the marker.
It's a fine balance between asking questions versus just observing
and waiting and watching. So you shouldn't feel guilty that
you didn't know what to say, because actually no one
knows what to say. You just have to wait and observe.
(20:00):
And certainly that was very uncomfortable and cold and windy,
and just see what happens. That's really all you can do,
and that's the respectful thing to do. There's nothing to say.
What is there to say?
Speaker 6 (20:13):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
I mean, I you guys can see it on me now,
I'm like, I just hated it. I hated I hated
having the camera on us. It felt performative. I didn't
want to make these people pose in front of something
that was so personal and sad and awful. But we
needed to have the shot, you know, we needed people
to know what it looks like and to know what
(20:35):
they built for their son and for their granddaughter. And
I just could not wait for the camera to be
off because I wanted to be there in privacy with them.
But I mean that's not production, you know, you don't
get to go and then just have private time with people.
But of all the places that we've been, now, you
know that one that really really messed me up because
(20:56):
you can see, you know, you could see the thought
that they put into it. They build a headstone for
their son that included a picture of him holding his
daughter because they thought it through for the next couple decades.
You know, they knew she was not going to be
allowed to go anytime soon, but they hoped she would
(21:17):
come someday. How often they.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Come out, I try to come out once a week,
but since I take care of my mother, I don't
get to come out as often as I would like.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Yeah, says him, Yeah, so did this fitch for him that.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Day? They can have it. I always have it to
come out and to sit with them.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
You guys put her picture on here with how important
is it.
Speaker 6 (22:22):
To you to have her know how much her dad
loved her.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
It was very, very important to know that the reason
that he's not here today was it because he was
trying to have far a part of his life. It's
very important.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
They're still living in that community and fighting that fight.
I don't know how they have the stamina for it.
I would run. I would never want to look at
that place ever again. Ever, And they've stayed. And they've stayed,
I think because haus they're hoping that their granddaughter will
have a relationship with them one day.
Speaker 9 (23:05):
I'm sure that they would like nothing more than to
sit on that bench with their granddaughter one day. But
Christian's death is not private. It's something that affects everyone.
I mean, I understand why it's difficult to do, and
there's a feeling that it should be a private moment.
(23:25):
But they are sharing with us their private moment because
somewhere out there, maybe before, maybe in the future, the
same thing could happen to someone else. They're sharing that
with us, you know, in a way that is a
privilege for us to see. And that's what we do.
(23:46):
That's our responsibility, and to not share that fully is
to gloss over, basically the very difficult facts of their
life and the very huge tragedy that Christian is dead.
Speaker 6 (23:59):
I purpose, and we are, as Andrew said, we're there
to bear witness. We can't fix it. It hurts. It
hurts you because.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
All of us, we all like it hurts. Go home
that day and function properly.
Speaker 6 (24:12):
But I'm just saying when you're talking about hating that situation,
and that's been something we've been processing with you from
the beginning, because you want to fix things. That's why
you're into advocacy, and you want to jump in there
and you want to tell them it's okay, and you
want to tell them what you're going to do. And
it's been this real pull for you, this real tense,
difficult thing for you to hold back. But we are
(24:33):
there to bear witness. It's their story and we are
there to give them that platform and they want to
reclaim this narrative.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
When you guys think about this case and covering this case,
how do you feel now?
Speaker 6 (24:49):
I mean, I'm proud that we're doing this case. This
was one of the ones that stands out that I
just really want to have this work that we've done
make a difference because it's so in limbo, in such
a horrible way for people who are in so much pain,
and there's no I don't like to use the word closure,
but nobody can move on because it's just limbo. I'm
(25:11):
proud of it. I can't say I'm hopeful necessarily, but
I do hope that we can continue to talk about
this and get this out there. But I'm also like,
it's very interesting to look back and listen and re
listen and relook at some of the stuff because we
are still arguing together about well, this could have happened,
that could have happened, Like, nothing makes more sense now
(25:32):
than it did then.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
It just becomes more and more and more confusing because
no narratives match, the evidence doesn't match, the story doesn't match,
the testimony doesn't match, the ballistics, like nothing lines up,
And the more you look at it, the more confusing
it becomes. Yeah, for me, the reason I wanted to
(26:02):
cover this case in particular in the podcast is because
I am hopeful some of the cases we cover there
is not a clear path forward. There is not a
call to arms or even an ask that the audience
can participate in in this one, though, asking for oversight
from the state, from the North Carolina Attorney General, and
(26:25):
from the North Carolina Governor, and from the media resources
in North Carolina, those Raleigh newspapers, the Charlotte newspapers, anything
that's centered there that is a call to arms. That
is stuff that people can get involved in and do
that will hopefully shed light on what is going on
in Harnett County, because while Christian Griggs case is a
(26:48):
thorn in the side of that Sheriff's department, they also
have a number of other complaints that also deserve to
be looked at in depth. And if our little show
can help rally those voices, that's worth our effort.
Speaker 7 (27:03):
Absolutely, how do you feel, No, I mean absolutely. I
think that we have been hearing so much about what's
been going on in Harnett County that beyond Christian Griggs
specific story, that is an impetus for other people in
the county to take a look and hold they're elected
officials accountable.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
That's great, Andrew, will you go back to Harnett County?
Speaker 6 (27:25):
Sure?
Speaker 9 (27:25):
I would go back to Harnett County.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
It was a beautiful town. I mean it was beautiful.
They have little, tiny main streets all five miles apart.
You know, all the little towns are so close together,
but they're their own little ecosystems. And I have gone
to the farmers' markets there on Sunday. I bought a
sunbonnet for my best friend's baby a couple months after
she was born, and got to walk around with her
(27:48):
in the baby Bjorn in that community. I have such
fond memories of this place, and I want it to
be safe, and I want it to be just, and
not just for people who look like me, but for
people like the Griggs family who deserve better.
Speaker 9 (28:06):
Well, I mean, will I drive up an unknown driveway
and knock on the door. Probably not. Will I be
speeding or running red lights there?
Speaker 7 (28:14):
Probably not.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Well, perhaps one reason to go back would be because
charges are filed.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
We hope there's a reason to go back. We hope
that we can go back because there's movement in the case.
That is our hope.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
All Right, you guys, that's it for our deep dive
into the Christian Griggs case. But as always, we encourage
you to stay active in your advocacy. So for more information,
You can follow Justice for Christian Griggs on Facebook and Instagram.
We're going to be taking just a brief hiatus, but
I want you to come back in the next couple
(28:59):
of weeks because I am going to be joined by
Christian's sister, Crystal, who was not able to take part
in the TV series, and I think it's really important
for us to hear her experience in the aftermath of
Christian's death. We're also going to hear some updates from
Scott Pogancy in the Brandon Woodruff case, So sit tight
and join us in just a couple weeks for that episode,
(29:22):
where we will also be giving you some very special announcements.
If you haven't watched Sundance TV's True Crime Story It
Couldn't Happen Here, you can catch all of our episodes
streaming on AMC Plus. For more information about this and
other cases we've covered, follow at ice HH stories on Instagram.
(29:46):
True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here was produced by
Mischief Farm in association with Bungalow Media and Entertainment, Authentic
Management Productions, and Figdonia in partnership with Sundance TV Executive
are Me Hillary Burton, Morgan, Liz Deccessory, Robert Friedman, Mike Powers,
and Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie Robinson Katz and Libby Siegel.
(30:11):
Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton, with original music by
Philip Radiotis. We want to say a special thank you
to everyone who participated, but especially the family's impacted by
our cases.
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