December 5, 2023 • 41 mins
On this episode, we’ll not only hear the team’s perspective of what it’s like to organize and interview someone who is incarcerated, but we’ll also hear directly from Brandon himself, and his perspective on the prejudice he faced - and what justice could mean for him and his family.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Brandon spends his days alone in prison,
the outside world a long forgotten memory. His days of
(00:23):
riding horses, caring for animals, or just hanging out with
his friends are long gone, and instead he hangs on
to the hope that his case will be reopened and
the DNA evidence found in the clutched hand of normal
Woodruff will be tested. Last episode, we examined the key
evidence in the case against Brandon as well as his
(00:45):
two week trial, and on this episode we will discuss
what it's like to interview someone in prison as well
as Here from Brandon himself, I'm Hillary Burton Morgan and
this is true crime story. It couldn't happen here. We're
(01:16):
back at it. We've got Poe, Dan and Andrew. You guys,
let's go ahead and dive in. Interviewing someone who is
in prison is an experience that I think very few
people on the planet have. I mean, you consider how
many people work in our industry, and then you boil
that down to how many people are doing documentary work,
and then you boil that down to how many people
(01:37):
are doing true crime. And so it's not something you
can necessarily learn in college or study for. It feels
like something you kind of just get thrust into.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
The sound of it is something that's really an experience.
There's this echo and a clink and this mull of
voices that are always going. It is a sensory overload
in this really kind of a way. I mean, it's
nothing subtle about prison, but you know, the way that
it overtakes you is intense, and everyone's on guard, and
you know, nothing is spontaneous there, at least in my
(02:11):
experience and everyone I knows experience. It is a tense,
scary place in ways that you can't completely articulate, and
there's a despair. I mean, sorry to paint a dark picture.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Well, it's prison. It's dark.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I can't imagine what it's like to be incarcerated in
a maximum security prison, but walking in to the prison
to do an interview, you get a tiny taste of
it because you're immediately giving up your freedom when you
walk in. You walk through a door, and the door
locks behind you, and you know you can't get out
unless somebody lets you out. You know, so instantly you've
given up your freedom. You don't have your cell phone on,
(02:45):
you can't call anybody to help you. You know, you're
at the mercy of the people who are running the prison.
And so just that kind of instant realization that you're
trapped in there, it's just a tiny, tiny fraction of
what I could imagine would be like.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
So prison is obviously a very difficult place to be.
And when it comes to doing a sit down interview
with someone in prison for a show like ours, it's
not a simple process. You know, we can't just roll
up to the prison with all of our gear and
hope to get inside. We knew that we wanted to
speak directly with Brandon, So how are we able to
(03:21):
set up that interview?
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Well, in Brandon's case, the facility allowed prison interviews. They
have media rules though, you know what you can bring in,
which you can't bring in, who could come in, when,
when it could be scheduled where you could be in
the prison to do this, and so they have a
whole list of rules and regulations. So then you could
do that, but then you have to get permission from
the inmate, right, so then you reach out and in
(03:43):
this case, for Brandon, we didn't talk directly to him
at first. A podcaster by the name of Scott Pogancy
introduced us to Brandon, and we'll talk more about Scott later,
but he was really interested in Brandon's story and he
even became friends with Brandon and covered this case in
his own podcast. And so we reached out to Scott
and we told him what we were doing and that
we were interested in talking to Brandon, and he went
(04:07):
and talked to Brandon himself and said, hey, these guys
are interested in interviewing with you, and Brandon agreed to
interview with us. So once we got the okay from Brandon,
then we reached out to the prison and arranged for
the interview.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
And it's very very strict. Each warden really has a
big choice. Many many states and prisons don't allow it.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And what would be the reason for limiting people from
conducting these kinds of interviews or just saying no.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
They only have limited resources to shepherd and watch over
a crew. I mean, essentially, they assign a public information
officer and you know that could be a whole day
for them, and you know they do have other things
to do, like running the prison or you know, speaking
to other matters that is important to the prison.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I forgot to say that, Like you're met by the PIO,
the public Information officer, and they accompany you the whole time.
Sometimes the warden will if you're an UNRU or not,
but sit down interviews. That's trickier, and it's whether their
policy is yes or no, and what the warden decides.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
They have specific dates and times too, because they in
Brandon's case, the interviews were being done in the area
where people come to visit the inmates, So it's in
like where the families would come in to meet with
their loved ones kind of thing. But they also didn't
want us there while other people were visiting, so we
had to schedule at a time when it wasn't regular
(05:27):
general visitation hours.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Just kind of the layers of subtraction. It's like you
can only talk to him this many times in a
month or a year, and you can only come on
these days, and when you do come on this day,
you're only allotted this amount of time. I mean going
into an interview like that. I can imagine the pressure
to get it all right. Yeah, like you better pray
to god the camera doesn't have an issue, or that
(05:52):
the sound guy doesn't have an issue. Were we even
allowed to have.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Sound, No, Andrew ran sound. We couldn't have anybody else
in there.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
With us because they're really and they're like, who's coming.
They got to do checks on you. They need to
know the age and all the information.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
And you have passed a background check.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, oh yeah, as clean as a whissl.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
So when we're scheduling the Brandon interview, who is communicating
with the prison from our team we had.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, I think Shreen originally, then went to Rob, then
went to me. So we have several people sort of
doing the groundwork because there is a lot of prep
that has to happen a handy time.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So that's our team behind the scenes, is our our
aps and our producers and various people that are helping
us logistically with everything we need from start to finish.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And they were buttoned up at this prison. We arrived
and they were like, we will meet you at the gatehouse.
So we drove up and we couldn't go park ourselves.
We had to go to the gatehouse and the PIO
came out and says, okay, follow me, and he showed
us exactly where to park. And then as we park
and then we're taking our gear out, he's looking at
every piece of gear to make sure we're not smuggling
something in, we're not bringing something in we shouldn't, and
(06:51):
we're checking with things like hey, can I bring this, Yeah,
that's okay, how about this? No, don't bring that. And
you can't bring money, you can't bring your wallet, you
can't bring your phone. You know, it's funny, we know this,
and we're like, fine, we'll leave our phone here. But
he was kind of a funny guy. He's like, so
many times they get cruise in here, like get really
mad if they can't bring their phone in.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
It has become such a security blanket. I went to
go cover Greg Lance's last court hearing and he's someone
from season one who is incarcerated in Tennessee, and so
we went to cover the hearing and they're like, you
have to leave your phone in the car, and it
just throws you in a really subconscious way because you're like, oh,
(07:26):
I don't have my escape ladder, I don't have that thing,
you know, like my batphone to call for help.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
And then the door slams behind you when you walk
in and you're like, I'm trapped here.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
The sound of the gate going behind you that is
like it's got this kind of screechy sound usually I.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Mean it's usually a buzzer or a bell, yes, and then.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, it's that hydraulic sound. Lets you know that there's
nothing you physically can do.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, it is an older prison. There's like metal screeching
and you know, just that sound of it going behind
you definitely, you know it just like your shoulders edging
up towards your ears and they don't go down until
you leave.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
How much time did we have for Brandon?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
It's limited. We have an hour with him, one hour,
one hour, that's it.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
And it takes us an hour to warm people up.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, and that's the tricky part of this, right, I mean,
you're walking in and because the communications have been through
other you know, third parties, like we put in a
request that he gets asked, No, I haven't talked directly
to him, So you.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Guys hadn't emailed or talked or just.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Through third parties, So we hadn't talked directly to each other,
and you know that is not always the case, but
in this case it was. So we had not had
access to Brandon beforehand, so walking in we were able
to set up before he's brought in. So we're brought
into the visitation room, were showed where we could set
up the camera, where we could put the microphone. We
get everything as prepped as we possibly can, and not
(08:58):
a lot of time to set up, so really it's
a very fast set up and then they bring Brandon
in and it's instant like you have to just connect
as quickly as you can.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
Okay, okay, thank you, and just show them how to
put that microphone you cant the Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (09:15):
Gosh, we did, yes, ma'am.
Speaker 7 (09:24):
Yes, I'm already put it out there.
Speaker 6 (09:28):
You're gonna put it stop there there you go?
Speaker 8 (09:33):
Hey, hey, good, how are you good? Okay, okay, that's
the question. You gotta put this on and go ahead,
all right, can.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
Yes, sir? Cop okay, yes, sir.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Okay, and Dan assume me your eyeline.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
Okay, hold on, say, I'm gonna we're just gonna set
the camera. So I'm just gonna step back here, all right,
d you can I'm gonna just get the keep talking about.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Just lean back because I guess when we talked, I'll
probably ask a question. Okay, okay, sit back a little bit, yes, sir,
because you'll be talking to me. Okay, yes sir. And
do you want to see my eyeline Andrew?
Speaker 9 (10:12):
Yeah, okay, come up.
Speaker 10 (10:14):
Awful because let's just.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Good stand by okay, sort of just sort of lining
up the camera okay, yeah.
Speaker 6 (10:32):
Alright, let me just the light. Yeah it sounds good.
Just level look good. We're just gonna make a couple
of little okay, thanks very much, man. Yeah, yeah, I'm
giving me Charles.
Speaker 10 (10:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
We love your family. Yeah.
Speaker 11 (10:46):
I heard she was like there's such a nice group
of people, and I was like, that's really good, because
yeah she's awesome.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
Yes sir, yes sir.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yah and James my god.
Speaker 6 (10:55):
Yeah yeah, yeah he's really cool.
Speaker 11 (10:57):
He kind of came into my life about twelve years
thirteen years ago, so yeah, he's really he's a really
good guy.
Speaker 6 (11:02):
It seems good for her.
Speaker 11 (11:03):
Yes, yes, yes, sir, yes, yes sir, yes sir.
Speaker 9 (11:08):
All right.
Speaker 12 (11:09):
Good.
Speaker 6 (11:09):
So yeah, so I'll talk to you.
Speaker 9 (11:10):
I'll tell you.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Oh yeah, I'm pretty much better.
Speaker 6 (11:12):
Okay, these are much better than okay. So I guess
the best.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
Thing for us to do is I'll ask you a
question and then maybe put the phone.
Speaker 11 (11:20):
Down, yes, sir to okay, how do you guys do
That's how we did it, before you say okay.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Great that it says the setup was pretty difficult. I mean,
so Brandon is behind a pane of glass and the
only way I could communicate with him is through a
telephone connecting my side with his side. So I'd pick
up the phone, ask my question, and then we'd both
hang up the phone and Brandon would answer. To do
this for every question and while also trying to get
to know him was pretty difficult. Our normal way of
(11:46):
working is that we spend time with people.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
We listened for a while before we really start doing
any questions.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
And the way we do it, particularly is different than
news and different than some people is we have a
conversation and it's rolling, and that's how we work. So
this is a wildly different circumstance.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
So imagine you're been in prison for how many years?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Well, yeah, since two thousand and five after his parents' death.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Right, so you know, occasionally he gets interviewed. He's been
interviewed in the past. He's been thinking about this for
a long time. He has a lot to say, and
that definitely changes the pace of the interview as well.
There's a little bit that ticking clock does. I'm going
to say as many things as I can as quickly
as possible in this manner.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Well, I can't imagine there's a right tone for the
incarcerated person to hit. It's like either you're too guarded,
or you are too frantic trying to get the information out,
or you are too familiar with the interviewer, or you're nervous,
Like there's just there's not a right tone.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Well, and also it's what's going on. I mean, he's incarcerated.
His life is hard in there. Even the guard said
when we were walking in that Brandon's moody. You know,
you might get him on a good day where he
might be friends to you. You might get him on
a bad day where he's just going to be nasty.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
What's really interesting is like we all know how it
feels to wake up from a bad dream and be like, oh, okay,
it's a dream, or if something bad happens, you wake
up the next morning and you're like, okay, it's a new.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Day, it's past tense.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, and they don't get that. Every day they wake
up and their nightmare is reel and we do have
to remember that.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
And you can't even imagine what his life is like
going in there, And so we weren't sure how he
was going to be with us just from that, and
then he had done other interviews and I think he
felt guarded because of them as well. And so when
we walked in and Brandon sat down, you know, I
think it's about making guy contact. As soon as Brandon
sat down and we looked at each other face to
(13:41):
face and just started introducing ourselves and trying to do
that in a fast way, but in a genuine way.
Then I have to get certain things. I have to
cover certain ground, and so you get selective. There were
so many things I wanted to talk to him about,
but there were things that I knew I needed to get.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, that's frustrating, because sometimes the best things you've fine
are the ones when you're just wandering and we don't
have that luxury.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Yeah, And I'll have to count down the clock in
the middle of that and make reminders and suggestions. We
need to move on, We need to get to this
other place at that time is around.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Pallas when you're telling someone who's talking to you about
their trauma, Like, cool story, but we've only got twenty
minutes to do that properly.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, it's funny. They start off very slow and then yeah,
Andrew's suddenly is tapping me, like half an hour. I'm like, really,
half an hour's gone by already, you know, I kind
of just getting started. But it was definitely a constant
tap on my shoulder from Andrew, like keeping an eye
on the clock.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Well, the thing working against someone like Brandon is unlike
family members that we interview, or law enforcement or people
out in the free world, especially in season two of
our show, they're able to look at our episodes and
see the tone that we set and the advocacy that
we get involved with, and see the duality of the
(14:54):
viewpoints we're presenting. Brandon can't just go and watch our show.
In order to build trust with us, we.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Spoke with Brandon's grandmother, Bonnie before we spoke with Brandon,
so I was able to come in and we were
able to say, oh my god, we met with your
grandmother and talk about our experience sitting down with Bonnie,
and that created a bond because Brandon loves his grandmother,
and I think knowing that we were with her and
you know, I sort of put his mind at ease
a little bit. I just it was instant familiarity in
(15:20):
some ways with us.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I have to say that there are certain moments in
making a show where the responsibility really hits you. We
have a huge responsibility. Not everybody thinks that. Not everybody
acts that way in making this kind of program. This
team feels it. I feel it. There are moments that
just it hits home. Meeting with Bonnie for you, I
think probably, I would assume might be one of those
(15:44):
moments where you know somebody is in so much pain.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Anytime there's hope, and you feel like you can't answer
their question, like you cannot affirmatively say I'm here to
help you. All you can say is I'm here to
give a platform. And what of that comes of that?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Right?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Meeting with family members from either the victim or the
person who's in prison and their hope, yes, but their pain,
and then meeting with that person their pain and the
responsibility we have in telling their story. However it is.
You know, whatever, people will take away from it. That's
the kind of moment where you're sitting there in front
(16:22):
of this person and you are their hope of their
story being heard. That's a profound moment.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
But when the person you're interviewing is claiming innocence in
a short interview like this, there is always going to
be some tension around the hardest question that you're going
to have to.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Ask, which is.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Did you kill this person?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (16:45):
So did you kill your parents? No? I did not.
What are you doing it? I'm sorry, I just phone
down in that answer. Okay, no, sir, I did not
kill my parents.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
How important is it for person to find who did it?
Speaker 11 (17:03):
I think to me the number one thing is to
find out who actually killed my parents. Then my parents
can get justice. I can get justice and my family
can get justice. Right now, justice has not been served
for my parents either. You know, the situation in terms
of me is a whole other chapter. You know, of
course I've been to not justice. Of course I got
wrongly convicted. Of course, you know there's a lot of
(17:25):
things that should never have happened to me. I've never
should have been put in this situation. But my parents
still deserve justice too.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
The entire interview can change. You may have a follow
up to that question, did you kill your parents? Why
would you kill your parents? Why are people saying you
killed your parents? Right, there's a lot of things that
we're going to want to ask.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
We want them to address the guilty version.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah, I mean sure, not just.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Their own innocent version, but we want them to talk
about why there's a guilty version.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
And I think again, because of the limited time we
with Brandon, I didn't want to go through all of
the evidence for or against the specific evidence that's the investigation,
and we wanted to make sure we got his story,
his direct experience, what was he doing, what was he experiencing,
what was his family like, you know, really stuff that
he could answer directly because the details of the investigation
(18:18):
we can get from other people, you know. So we
really were like, we just don't have time to go
to every single point. And it was hard because I
really wanted to ask a ton of detailed investigation questions.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
But there's also a human element to this, which is
we haven't experienced Brandon in person, and we may presume
he might be innocent or guilty, but that's like a
truth moment when you ask that question, look me in
the eye, you know, and every person has a different experience,
so you kind of hope that there isn't like a
huge silence when you asked a cause.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
But Brandon answered really quickly. I mean he said no,
I didn't So, Dan, how did he seem to you?
I mean, did Brandon seem hopeful when you first walked
into that room with him?
Speaker 9 (19:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I think knowing that he has people who believe him
helps him.
Speaker 9 (19:06):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
I think his grandmother is a huge support for him,
and the other members of his family who believe in
him are huge And for us to come in and say,
we just want to hear your story, you know, we
want to listen to what you have to say. He
was very appreciative of that. I mean, I think he
was happy that we were there talking to him. And again,
we don't make the promises like we're going to be
able to affect any change or you know, I didn't
(19:27):
come in and say, oh my god, I can't believe
you're so innocent and why are even you know what,
we can't make that I'm walking in asking him hard
questions and so, so.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
What were your hard questions?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
There were a couple of points that bothered me about
this case that I wanted to ask Brandon. One was
the dagger, which we spoke about in the last episode.
But his roommate said Brandon had a medieval looking dagger
in his dorm room and they found a medieval looking
dagger at the heath House and it had Dennis's DNA
on it. This to me looked really damning and it
(19:58):
was something that concerned me, like I wanted to know.
That was one of the ones I like, I have
to ask him directly. Was that your dagger?
Speaker 9 (20:04):
The dagger I know.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
That you did?
Speaker 9 (20:06):
You own one?
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Yes, said that you did, and then that fouance can
you describe what this is?
Speaker 9 (20:12):
Like what they said?
Speaker 6 (20:13):
Okay? Yeah?
Speaker 11 (20:16):
Uh so I actually did own what they called a
replica dagger, a replica dagger. Medieval Times Castle Dinner and
Tournament UH has and illusion horses in their production and
I was always a big fan of andalusion horses, and
there was a head trainer there named Marcilla Cancheris UH.
He actually works for Medieval Times in a tournament as
(20:36):
their head trainer, but he also shows horses UH in
the International and Illusion Horse Association. So in the tournament
when you see some of the horses bowing and laying
down or are going down in the in the jousting.
To the viewer's eyes, you know the horse they're in battle.
But to a trainer's eyes, they're trained to lay down.
They're trained to do these things. And so what you
(20:57):
basically had is like a dagger about this, and you
would use as points on a horse's body to get
the horse to bow, to get the horse to lay down,
but they weren't sharp. That's the key thing I want
to you know, emphasize on you're not going to put
a sharp blade against a horse's flesh and just take
a possibility that it's going to go through a horse.
So what I had was, in fact a dagger. My
(21:17):
roommate did see a dagger in my room and he
wanted me to go check what they call a resident
advisor to make sure, you know, I could have that
in the room. He said that the dagger, though, it
was longer than my palm. So he says, you know,
just take it out of the dorm room just because
you know, it's bigger than a pocket knife. And I said, okay,
no problem. That was the first week of school, and
I actually took it back to the barn where the
(21:38):
horses are being kept at.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
That was an important thing for me to ask him
because of course, and he went on to talk about
the dagger that he had, where he got it, the
size of it, and that was helpful for me because
then I said, Okay, now this is something that we
could go back and we could look into further, you know,
and I got his take on it directly.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
You know, for Brandon trying to come off as like
not rehearsed, I can't imagine like the night before, you know,
you have to do this interview and not just staying
up being like, Okay, these are the points I have
to hit and this is what I have to address,
and I have to answer their questions too, but also
get my love for my sister out, and my love
for my grandma out, and my innocence and all of that.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
And there's so many different things. Right, So what was
his relationship like with his parents? I wanted to know,
but really how this case affected him and his family.
They lost Dennis and Norma, the entire family lost these
two by all accounts, amazing people, right, Dennis's mother, Dennis's
family normous family all lost these two people, and Brandon
(22:35):
is accused of killing them. What is that like to
be accused of killing your parents and how does that
affect the entire family? And I think that for me
to ask him about his relationship with his grandmother, his
relationship with his sister, his relationship with other members of
his family, was important for me to.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Ask, well, let's go ahead and hear more from Brandon.
Speaker 11 (22:53):
So growing up with my sister was definitely a fun experience.
We were only thirteen months apart, so she was the
big sister, but you know, I kind of took on
the role of kind of like we're mutual, you know,
because we're so close together. Even though we were only
thirteen months apart, we were two grades apart, so you know,
growing up before school, we would you know, run around
(23:15):
the house and have fun and she would have her friends.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
I would have my friends.
Speaker 11 (23:18):
And then once we started going up into middle school
and too high school together, it was kind of like
my first year in high school as a sophomore, she
was already a senior, so it was kind of cool
having a senior as a sister. It was kind of like, yeah, well,
my sister was a senior, and she was on the
dance team, and she was always doing stuff with her
dance group, and she was you know, she was just
like a typical sister. She loved me, I loved her,
(23:40):
and you know, we had a good childhood. We had
a very good childhood in my opinion. So what is
this done to your father? You're being arrested for your parents,
what's stune to your pament?
Speaker 6 (23:53):
Me being arrested definitely has split some of my family members.
Speaker 11 (23:57):
I've got a lot of family members that support me,
that love me, that believe in me, that they know
the truth, and they stand up and they stand tall,
they stand confident, and you know, they're my rocks, They're
my angels. I've got some family members though, however, that
you know, are divided. They you know, it's sad in it,
and I really don't even like talking about it too much.
But it's like they believe that I killed my parents,
(24:20):
and that's just something very you know, hard to swallow sometimes.
And it's just like when I think about that, or
I hear that, you know, my sister, my own sister,
you know, she's kind of like basically she's took the
stand of the law enforcement side, and that hurts more
than really anything. It's just like you're supposed to know me,
(24:41):
Like we grew up together. We you know, we went
through so much together, and now you're just kind of like,
you know, it's just it's kind of difficult.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
The hurt.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Like Charlotte led the charge. Charlie's the one who came
down there and said he did it. Closest person to
him that was living still came down and said he
did it. He's lying, And that whole interview she did
with the police was so shocking, and he's clearly still
shocked by it, and he said, how could you believe
this about me? And you know we're so close, you
(25:15):
know me, how could you say this? It doesn't seem
like he's he's clearly been thinking about it for the
last almost twenty years, but he also seems like it's fresh.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Well, and talking to us is one of the few
ways he can get this affection he still feels for
his sister out into the world. You know, he can't
contact her directly. It's a strained relationship. Bonnie has told
us that. And so rather than in our interview be like,
I can't believe my sister said this stuff about me,
She's the worst. No, Instead, he's telling us how wonderful
(25:46):
their childhood was and how funny she is and how
she overcame some pretty serious stuff. And there's a lot
of grace in that, especially if you consider he's been
sitting in a cage for a very long.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Time and yeah, and that she has adamantly turned against
you and says you did it. Also, I thought that
the little ad he did where he said, you know,
we had a great childhood from my perspective, which I
think is the crux of it, because two people can
live the same experience or the same circumstance and have
different experiences, and it seems from what we look at
(26:22):
that she may have had a different experience at times
than he did with their childhood.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
So, in addition to Dan's interview with Brandon, we spoke
to him again later over the phone, and we didn't
necessarily have the same time restraint that you had Dan
when you guys were in prison, but we were still
dealing with some other obstacles. So let's talk about that
day we were down in Texas. We were at his
grandmother's house, and that adds a whole other layer to
(26:59):
the city situation. I mean, we've got his grandmother, like
his one loving family member, sitting there with us, and
I've got to ask him questions about his lifestyle, who
he was partying with, who was sleeping with, pornography like
all of that. And again, we are spending a lot
of time in this episode talking about being tender to
sensitive subject matter.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
She's very vulnerable, and again it's that responsibility that you
have this incredibly vulnerable, emotionally distraught person who you know,
she's raw. It's like a little bird in your hand.
It feels like that you have to take care of.
You might not want to use that metaphor. You have
to be so gentle around those people, and yet you
also have to do what we came here to do,
which is ask real questions.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
So specifically for prison phone calls that I am engaged
with just technically to shoot them. You can't just have
me sitting in a car by myself talking to someone
on the phone because there's not a level of visual communication, right,
it's stagnant. You can't live in it for longer than
(28:02):
a couple minutes. And so with a phone call like
Brandon having his grandmother there as a representative for Brandon
where we can see her face as he's talking. Seems
very important.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Absolutely. I think we had scheduled time for you Hillary
to be with Bonnie, and Bonnie is on Brandon's approved
call list, so that worked out really well that he
could call in like we can't call Brandon like he
has to initiate the phone call. So we didn't know
exactly when he was going to be able to call,
but we knew we were going to be at Bonnie's
house on this particular day, and we're just whenever he
(28:37):
called was when you would be able to have that
conversation with him. So he was organized and it was
set up, but it was still very unpredictable, right.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
You don't know if they're going to go on lockdown
that day in the prison, or if he'll just change
his mind, or if you know, power lines go down
and her phone doesn't work and there's no telling what's
going to happen.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
There's a long line that day and he doesn't get
to the phone in time because they have a certain
amount of minutes that they can talk on the phone
and then the next one comes and if he gets
cut off before then, it doesn't happen that day. There's
a whole lot of factors that go into the phone
call coming to Bonnie and you being able to talk
to him.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
So let's just listen to that phone call because the
problems become clear right away.
Speaker 6 (29:21):
Just stick with the two.
Speaker 12 (29:24):
Hello, Yes, Michael, hewnit and this call is being retorted
and project quoring.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Dark the conversation.
Speaker 10 (29:44):
Hey, Brandon, where we're talking to It's Hillary Hilary here.
We're talking to Hillary. It's great. Let me hold understand
he keep okay, okay, can you hear me?
Speaker 7 (30:02):
I can hear you?
Speaker 9 (30:04):
Okay, Yeah, Well, why do I need to try to
call about my burning if I'm going five?
Speaker 6 (30:08):
But we're going to actually call back up from.
Speaker 9 (30:11):
A hot time in so I just kind of if
I'm tying okay and I need anything else for me?
Speaker 6 (30:18):
And Hi, Brandon, I'm just happy to talk to you myself.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Your grandmother put you on speakerphone, but I didn't want
to ambush you. It's so nice to sit here with
her and learn more about your family. How are you?
Speaker 9 (30:35):
Everything you are doing? Like it really means a lot
to me. I was talking to them and I was
just like Basically I need as much exposure as I
can get because I feel like the more people that
hear my story are like listening to all the facts
and not just like martial effects. And I think that
might you know, can lead to something, you know, really
happening big.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
So why do you feel like your case hasn't gotten exposure?
Speaker 9 (30:59):
You know in the beginning, you know, when I first
got arrested, Like when I'm very first was charged, I
was screaming so loud, and I felt like, well, nobody's
really listening to me. I mean, it's a core group
of people that known me from you know, a board,
they happen in me and do anybody was like, nobody
wasn't really wanted to hear me.
Speaker 6 (31:18):
So I reached out to a Channel eleven.
Speaker 9 (31:20):
Interview, and after that interview, my attorneys were like, well
there's a media gad or you can't talk.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
To nobody else at that stuff. I was like, it's
anybody talking.
Speaker 9 (31:30):
And then you know, a lot of people, a lot
of attorneys will tell us, and especially tell my family,
that we don't need talking about the carriers, We don't
need to bring nothing up. We need to keep you know, investigating,
do this but after so much time was coming in prison,
and you're like, hey, nobody's listening. Others reaching out to
many people that were just listening actually look at everything,
and I feel like, you know, it's coming to a
(31:51):
point where you know, it's been over fifteen years where
it's nothing really happening, you know that's really getting anybody's interest.
And it's like, I just think one of people a
stright here, like I can't believe that happened, And I'm like,
interminated you to assist in there, Please hang up.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
And try your call again.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
We got disconnected a few times, they believe during that call,
Brandon sounds desperate to me when he begins to talk
to you.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
He is trying so hard to get his story out.
Like from the very beginning, he was like newspeople, news people,
anyone who has a vehicle a platform to put this
story out outside of my small community, please listen to
my story.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
As I look over our notes, I want to talk
about that frantic energy because he's trying to fit so
much information into each response. And so again we run
into another SoundBite that we're going to play for you
guys here where he gets cut off mid monologue. Are
they also focusing on the hairs found in your mother's hand?
Speaker 9 (32:55):
So basically they want to pick a hair. My grandmother's
like my angel throughout the whole thing, and you know
it's really hard to you know, for working people that
I've worked on her eye take the cow when you
got this pen and the state obviously they can't do that. Basically,
it's to make your wrist and we can text, you know,
(33:16):
pick the avail. The state argue you guys, they weren't
going to pay for it, so we were able to.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Did we lose him?
Speaker 7 (33:28):
Mm hmmmm, I bet it won't do it? You said,
kept beeping, didn't it. Yeah, maybe you'll call back, Maybe
I'll get.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
To her portable phone died in the middle of that,
and then we had to just hope that Brendan was
going to call back again.
Speaker 9 (33:42):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, think I changed the batteries for her.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
You changed the battery, I said, Andrew showed up like
another grandson, like to change batteries and like get her
phone or the.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Phone in from the other room to have a Yeah.
I mean that's difficult. One of the reason you can't
control it. Yeah, you just can't control and you have
to just kind of go with it.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
And this is the kind of stuff that happens all
the time, and it's especially hard when you have that
prison thing. But this is why we keep Andrew around
because he can kind of fix anything. It's maguiver, he's
a macguver and he'll definitely fix things in people's houses,
stoves and you know, lights that are malfunctioning.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Okay, So then we had to dive into more of
the lifestyle stuff in front of Bonnie. Dan, did you
feel any hesitation broaching that kind of subject matter with her?
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Well, I mean I spoke with Bonnie a few days
before you came in and spoke with her, and so
I waded into that water gently. But she has certainly
come to terms with the situation that Brandon is in,
and she certainly has talked about it at enough times,
and she loves Brandon and supports Brandon. And I think
that in talking to her, she seemed comfortable talking about
(34:47):
Brandon and his lifestyle and any of the situations that's
around the case. So I felt like she was okay,
she was okay to talk about these things. Well, did
you feel that way?
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Her son, Dennis is obviously like the light of her life.
She loved, loved, loved her son. She talked about how
he was the one that kept the family together and
he was the helper for everybody, and so having her
validate what Brandon says about his father's acceptance of his
lifestyle was really important because if she thought her son
(35:20):
would have had a bias, she would have said so.
And so when I was on the phone with Brandon,
I asked him directly about his dad and whether he
would have had any bias about his sexuality. This motive
that law enforcement suggested you had where you were scared
your parents were going to find out about your lifestyle.
Speaker 9 (35:42):
My dad was John J. Middle. My dad is not
going to convince somebody that held her being gay, period.
And I was his son. I was somebody that he
loved and who he took care of.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I think what was really interesting because a big motive
that was presented was that Brandon's parents found out that
he was and that became a big blow up and
then that's what caused him to kill them. And you
know that this was a motive, right, And I think
that asking Brandon about that what his folks knew about
his sexuality was super important, and so we asked him
that in prison too.
Speaker 11 (36:14):
But my parents are always supportive of me, and they
always were supportive of me, and so to for somebody
to even think that, oh, well, because he's gay, he
could have killed his parents. Absolutely not my dad. You know,
my dad, like I said, knew my dad was supportive.
My dad did tell me, you know, to always just
let him know. And you know, he knew I was
going to gay clubs.
Speaker 6 (36:32):
He knew that.
Speaker 11 (36:33):
He knew my first boyfriend was on the phone with
my dad multiple times because my dad is not gonna
let me ride around wherever I want to go without
telling anyone, you know, somewhere that I was going. I
don't know if he told my mom or not, but
definitely my dad knew and definitely didn't have a problem
with it. And you know, that's just that's that's one
of the most craziest ideas for people to think. But
you know, I think coming from a small town, it's
(36:54):
easy to put that stigma on gay is wrong, Gay
is this? Gay is you know, And so it's definitely
something that should have even been really discussed. If people
would personalize my parents and personalized who they were as
people they would know that there's no way my parents
would care. I could have been saying I was in
love with the cow, and my parents would say, well,
we love you. You're crazy, but we love.
Speaker 9 (37:12):
You, you know.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
And I think he was so offended that the idea
that his parents would be so judgmental. I think if
you listened to.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Him so presumptuous, I mean, bigotry on his parents the victims.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah, and it's an assumption. I mean, Noel even says
Brandon was, you know, doing things that his father wouldn't
have approved of, you know, like he makes.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
This like he didn't even know these people. Art That
line that Noel says, it's so unequivocable the way he
states it, and it's wild.
Speaker 8 (37:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
So it was great to get Brandon that opportunity to
basically say, no, my dad was protective of me. I
made sure he knew my boyfriend's he knew what clubs
I was going to, you know. I thought that was
super important to hear that from Brandon, but.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Also important to hear from other people to see if
that's some smoke and mears he's throwing up about his
parents when it wasn't really true. And Bonnie definitely confirms
that about her son.
Speaker 7 (38:04):
Dennis didn't have a problem with someone being gay, because
Dennis just accepted people for who they were. He he
was just a people person and he loved people, and
so would he wouldn't have disowned anyone for that.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Reason, because Dennis had no problem with Brandon's sexuality, and
that brings us to the seed that was planted at
the beginning of this case, the seed that Brandon was
acting differently and should be looked at closely. Now we
can't say if Brandon is inno center guilty, but we
can look at the investigation and the trial and point
(38:51):
to the fact that Brandon was treated differently due to
his sexuality. And so next episode we will have a
candid conversation around LGBTQIA plus rights, not only back in
the early two thousands, but today as well, because despite
some progress, there are still attempts to curb their rights.
(39:13):
I asked this question at the end of the TV episode,
and I still wonder, in all the years since Brandon's trial,
are we really any better. That's it for this week's
(39:38):
episode of True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here, but
be sure to join us next week as we dive
deeper into the brandon woodrift case.
Speaker 11 (39:46):
They're trying to say that I had this sinister side
because I had this completely hidden lifestyle. What it simply
was was I just didn't tell certain people at this
time because I didn't really know for myself.
Speaker 6 (39:56):
I didn't know what one.
Speaker 11 (39:56):
Hundred percent that I was gay or bisexual, whether I
wanted to go try to get back with my girlfriend
or a boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Join us next week as we continue to roll up
our sleeves and dig in. Thank you so much for
joining us. If you haven't watched Sundance TV's True Crime
Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you can catch all of
our episodes streaming on AMC Plus. For more information about
this and other cases we've covered, follow at ice HH
(40:26):
stories on Instagram. True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here
was produced by Mischief Farm in association with Bungalow Media
and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions, and Figdonia in partnership with
Sundance TV. Executive producers are me Hillary Burton, Morgan, Liz Accessor,
(40:47):
Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie
Robinson Katz and Libby Siegel. Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton,
with original music by Philip radiotech Us. We want to
say a special thank you to everyone who participated, but
especially the family is impacted by our cases.
Hi, guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Brandon spends his days alone in prison,
the outside world a long forgotten memory. His days of
(00:23):
riding horses, caring for animals, or just hanging out with
his friends are long gone, and instead he hangs on
to the hope that his case will be reopened and
the DNA evidence found in the clutched hand of normal
Woodruff will be tested. Last episode, we examined the key
evidence in the case against Brandon as well as his
(00:45):
two week trial, and on this episode we will discuss
what it's like to interview someone in prison as well
as Here from Brandon himself, I'm Hillary Burton Morgan and
this is true crime story. It couldn't happen here. We're
(01:16):
back at it. We've got Poe, Dan and Andrew. You guys,
let's go ahead and dive in. Interviewing someone who is
in prison is an experience that I think very few
people on the planet have. I mean, you consider how
many people work in our industry, and then you boil
that down to how many people are doing documentary work,
and then you boil that down to how many people
(01:37):
are doing true crime. And so it's not something you
can necessarily learn in college or study for. It feels
like something you kind of just get thrust into.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
The sound of it is something that's really an experience.
There's this echo and a clink and this mull of
voices that are always going. It is a sensory overload
in this really kind of a way. I mean, it's
nothing subtle about prison, but you know, the way that
it overtakes you is intense, and everyone's on guard, and
you know, nothing is spontaneous there, at least in my
(02:11):
experience and everyone I knows experience. It is a tense,
scary place in ways that you can't completely articulate, and
there's a despair. I mean, sorry to paint a dark picture.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Well, it's prison. It's dark.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I can't imagine what it's like to be incarcerated in
a maximum security prison, but walking in to the prison
to do an interview, you get a tiny taste of
it because you're immediately giving up your freedom when you
walk in. You walk through a door, and the door
locks behind you, and you know you can't get out
unless somebody lets you out. You know, so instantly you've
given up your freedom. You don't have your cell phone on,
(02:45):
you can't call anybody to help you. You know, you're
at the mercy of the people who are running the prison.
And so just that kind of instant realization that you're
trapped in there, it's just a tiny, tiny fraction of
what I could imagine would be like.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
So prison is obviously a very difficult place to be.
And when it comes to doing a sit down interview
with someone in prison for a show like ours, it's
not a simple process. You know, we can't just roll
up to the prison with all of our gear and
hope to get inside. We knew that we wanted to
speak directly with Brandon, So how are we able to
(03:21):
set up that interview?
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Well, in Brandon's case, the facility allowed prison interviews. They
have media rules though, you know what you can bring in,
which you can't bring in, who could come in, when,
when it could be scheduled where you could be in
the prison to do this, and so they have a
whole list of rules and regulations. So then you could
do that, but then you have to get permission from
the inmate, right, so then you reach out and in
(03:43):
this case, for Brandon, we didn't talk directly to him
at first. A podcaster by the name of Scott Pogancy
introduced us to Brandon, and we'll talk more about Scott later,
but he was really interested in Brandon's story and he
even became friends with Brandon and covered this case in
his own podcast. And so we reached out to Scott
and we told him what we were doing and that
we were interested in talking to Brandon, and he went
(04:07):
and talked to Brandon himself and said, hey, these guys
are interested in interviewing with you, and Brandon agreed to
interview with us. So once we got the okay from Brandon,
then we reached out to the prison and arranged for
the interview.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
And it's very very strict. Each warden really has a
big choice. Many many states and prisons don't allow it.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
And what would be the reason for limiting people from
conducting these kinds of interviews or just saying no.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
They only have limited resources to shepherd and watch over
a crew. I mean, essentially, they assign a public information
officer and you know that could be a whole day
for them, and you know they do have other things
to do, like running the prison or you know, speaking
to other matters that is important to the prison.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I forgot to say that, Like you're met by the PIO,
the public Information officer, and they accompany you the whole time.
Sometimes the warden will if you're an UNRU or not,
but sit down interviews. That's trickier, and it's whether their
policy is yes or no, and what the warden decides.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
They have specific dates and times too, because they in
Brandon's case, the interviews were being done in the area
where people come to visit the inmates, So it's in
like where the families would come in to meet with
their loved ones kind of thing. But they also didn't
want us there while other people were visiting, so we
had to schedule at a time when it wasn't regular
(05:27):
general visitation hours.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Just kind of the layers of subtraction. It's like you
can only talk to him this many times in a
month or a year, and you can only come on
these days, and when you do come on this day,
you're only allotted this amount of time. I mean going
into an interview like that. I can imagine the pressure
to get it all right. Yeah, like you better pray
to god the camera doesn't have an issue, or that
(05:52):
the sound guy doesn't have an issue. Were we even
allowed to have.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
Sound, No, Andrew ran sound. We couldn't have anybody else
in there.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
With us because they're really and they're like, who's coming.
They got to do checks on you. They need to
know the age and all the information.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
And you have passed a background check.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, oh yeah, as clean as a whissl.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
So when we're scheduling the Brandon interview, who is communicating
with the prison from our team we had.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, I think Shreen originally, then went to Rob, then
went to me. So we have several people sort of
doing the groundwork because there is a lot of prep
that has to happen a handy time.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
So that's our team behind the scenes, is our our
aps and our producers and various people that are helping
us logistically with everything we need from start to finish.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
And they were buttoned up at this prison. We arrived
and they were like, we will meet you at the gatehouse.
So we drove up and we couldn't go park ourselves.
We had to go to the gatehouse and the PIO
came out and says, okay, follow me, and he showed
us exactly where to park. And then as we park
and then we're taking our gear out, he's looking at
every piece of gear to make sure we're not smuggling
something in, we're not bringing something in we shouldn't, and
(06:51):
we're checking with things like hey, can I bring this, Yeah,
that's okay, how about this? No, don't bring that. And
you can't bring money, you can't bring your wallet, you
can't bring your phone. You know, it's funny, we know this,
and we're like, fine, we'll leave our phone here. But
he was kind of a funny guy. He's like, so
many times they get cruise in here, like get really
mad if they can't bring their phone in.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
It has become such a security blanket. I went to
go cover Greg Lance's last court hearing and he's someone
from season one who is incarcerated in Tennessee, and so
we went to cover the hearing and they're like, you
have to leave your phone in the car, and it
just throws you in a really subconscious way because you're like, oh,
(07:26):
I don't have my escape ladder, I don't have that thing,
you know, like my batphone to call for help.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
And then the door slams behind you when you walk
in and you're like, I'm trapped here.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
The sound of the gate going behind you that is
like it's got this kind of screechy sound usually I.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
Mean it's usually a buzzer or a bell, yes, and then.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, it's that hydraulic sound. Lets you know that there's
nothing you physically can do.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, it is an older prison. There's like metal screeching
and you know, just that sound of it going behind
you definitely, you know it just like your shoulders edging
up towards your ears and they don't go down until
you leave.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
How much time did we have for Brandon?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
It's limited. We have an hour with him, one hour,
one hour, that's it.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
And it takes us an hour to warm people up.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah, and that's the tricky part of this, right, I mean,
you're walking in and because the communications have been through
other you know, third parties, like we put in a
request that he gets asked, No, I haven't talked directly
to him, So you.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Guys hadn't emailed or talked or just.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Through third parties, So we hadn't talked directly to each other,
and you know that is not always the case, but
in this case it was. So we had not had
access to Brandon beforehand, so walking in we were able
to set up before he's brought in. So we're brought
into the visitation room, were showed where we could set
up the camera, where we could put the microphone. We
get everything as prepped as we possibly can, and not
(08:58):
a lot of time to set up, so really it's
a very fast set up and then they bring Brandon
in and it's instant like you have to just connect
as quickly as you can.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
Okay, okay, thank you, and just show them how to
put that microphone you cant the Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (09:15):
Gosh, we did, yes, ma'am.
Speaker 7 (09:24):
Yes, I'm already put it out there.
Speaker 6 (09:28):
You're gonna put it stop there there you go?
Speaker 8 (09:33):
Hey, hey, good, how are you good? Okay, okay, that's
the question. You gotta put this on and go ahead,
all right, can.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
Yes, sir? Cop okay, yes, sir.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Okay, and Dan assume me your eyeline.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
Okay, hold on, say, I'm gonna we're just gonna set
the camera. So I'm just gonna step back here, all right,
d you can I'm gonna just get the keep talking about.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Just lean back because I guess when we talked, I'll
probably ask a question. Okay, okay, sit back a little bit, yes, sir,
because you'll be talking to me. Okay, yes sir. And
do you want to see my eyeline Andrew?
Speaker 9 (10:12):
Yeah, okay, come up.
Speaker 10 (10:14):
Awful because let's just.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Good stand by okay, sort of just sort of lining
up the camera okay, yeah.
Speaker 6 (10:32):
Alright, let me just the light. Yeah it sounds good.
Just level look good. We're just gonna make a couple
of little okay, thanks very much, man. Yeah, yeah, I'm
giving me Charles.
Speaker 10 (10:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
We love your family. Yeah.
Speaker 11 (10:46):
I heard she was like there's such a nice group
of people, and I was like, that's really good, because
yeah she's awesome.
Speaker 6 (10:51):
Yes sir, yes sir.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Yah and James my god.
Speaker 6 (10:55):
Yeah yeah, yeah he's really cool.
Speaker 11 (10:57):
He kind of came into my life about twelve years
thirteen years ago, so yeah, he's really he's a really
good guy.
Speaker 6 (11:02):
It seems good for her.
Speaker 11 (11:03):
Yes, yes, yes, sir, yes, yes sir, yes sir.
Speaker 9 (11:08):
All right.
Speaker 12 (11:09):
Good.
Speaker 6 (11:09):
So yeah, so I'll talk to you.
Speaker 9 (11:10):
I'll tell you.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Oh yeah, I'm pretty much better.
Speaker 6 (11:12):
Okay, these are much better than okay. So I guess
the best.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
Thing for us to do is I'll ask you a
question and then maybe put the phone.
Speaker 11 (11:20):
Down, yes, sir to okay, how do you guys do
That's how we did it, before you say okay.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Great that it says the setup was pretty difficult. I mean,
so Brandon is behind a pane of glass and the
only way I could communicate with him is through a
telephone connecting my side with his side. So I'd pick
up the phone, ask my question, and then we'd both
hang up the phone and Brandon would answer. To do
this for every question and while also trying to get
to know him was pretty difficult. Our normal way of
(11:46):
working is that we spend time with people.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
We listened for a while before we really start doing
any questions.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
And the way we do it, particularly is different than
news and different than some people is we have a
conversation and it's rolling, and that's how we work. So
this is a wildly different circumstance.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
So imagine you're been in prison for how many years?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Well, yeah, since two thousand and five after his parents' death.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Right, so you know, occasionally he gets interviewed. He's been
interviewed in the past. He's been thinking about this for
a long time. He has a lot to say, and
that definitely changes the pace of the interview as well.
There's a little bit that ticking clock does. I'm going
to say as many things as I can as quickly
as possible in this manner.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Well, I can't imagine there's a right tone for the
incarcerated person to hit. It's like either you're too guarded,
or you are too frantic trying to get the information out,
or you are too familiar with the interviewer, or you're nervous,
Like there's just there's not a right tone.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Well, and also it's what's going on. I mean, he's incarcerated.
His life is hard in there. Even the guard said
when we were walking in that Brandon's moody. You know,
you might get him on a good day where he
might be friends to you. You might get him on
a bad day where he's just going to be nasty.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
What's really interesting is like we all know how it
feels to wake up from a bad dream and be like, oh, okay,
it's a dream, or if something bad happens, you wake
up the next morning and you're like, okay, it's a new.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Day, it's past tense.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, and they don't get that. Every day they wake
up and their nightmare is reel and we do have
to remember that.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
And you can't even imagine what his life is like
going in there, And so we weren't sure how he
was going to be with us just from that, and
then he had done other interviews and I think he
felt guarded because of them as well. And so when
we walked in and Brandon sat down, you know, I
think it's about making guy contact. As soon as Brandon
sat down and we looked at each other face to
(13:41):
face and just started introducing ourselves and trying to do
that in a fast way, but in a genuine way.
Then I have to get certain things. I have to
cover certain ground, and so you get selective. There were
so many things I wanted to talk to him about,
but there were things that I knew I needed to get.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, that's frustrating, because sometimes the best things you've fine
are the ones when you're just wandering and we don't
have that luxury.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Yeah, And I'll have to count down the clock in
the middle of that and make reminders and suggestions. We
need to move on, We need to get to this
other place at that time is around.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Pallas when you're telling someone who's talking to you about
their trauma, Like, cool story, but we've only got twenty
minutes to do that properly.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, it's funny. They start off very slow and then yeah,
Andrew's suddenly is tapping me, like half an hour. I'm like, really,
half an hour's gone by already, you know, I kind
of just getting started. But it was definitely a constant
tap on my shoulder from Andrew, like keeping an eye
on the clock.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Well, the thing working against someone like Brandon is unlike
family members that we interview, or law enforcement or people
out in the free world, especially in season two of
our show, they're able to look at our episodes and
see the tone that we set and the advocacy that
we get involved with, and see the duality of the
(14:54):
viewpoints we're presenting. Brandon can't just go and watch our show.
In order to build trust with us, we.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Spoke with Brandon's grandmother, Bonnie before we spoke with Brandon,
so I was able to come in and we were
able to say, oh my god, we met with your
grandmother and talk about our experience sitting down with Bonnie,
and that created a bond because Brandon loves his grandmother,
and I think knowing that we were with her and
you know, I sort of put his mind at ease
a little bit. I just it was instant familiarity in
(15:20):
some ways with us.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I have to say that there are certain moments in
making a show where the responsibility really hits you. We
have a huge responsibility. Not everybody thinks that. Not everybody
acts that way in making this kind of program. This
team feels it. I feel it. There are moments that
just it hits home. Meeting with Bonnie for you, I
think probably, I would assume might be one of those
(15:44):
moments where you know somebody is in so much pain.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Anytime there's hope, and you feel like you can't answer
their question, like you cannot affirmatively say I'm here to
help you. All you can say is I'm here to
give a platform. And what of that comes of that?
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Right?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Meeting with family members from either the victim or the
person who's in prison and their hope, yes, but their pain,
and then meeting with that person their pain and the
responsibility we have in telling their story. However it is.
You know, whatever, people will take away from it. That's
the kind of moment where you're sitting there in front
(16:22):
of this person and you are their hope of their
story being heard. That's a profound moment.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
But when the person you're interviewing is claiming innocence in
a short interview like this, there is always going to
be some tension around the hardest question that you're going
to have to.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Ask, which is.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Did you kill this person?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (16:45):
So did you kill your parents? No? I did not.
What are you doing it? I'm sorry, I just phone
down in that answer. Okay, no, sir, I did not
kill my parents.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
How important is it for person to find who did it?
Speaker 11 (17:03):
I think to me the number one thing is to
find out who actually killed my parents. Then my parents
can get justice. I can get justice and my family
can get justice. Right now, justice has not been served
for my parents either. You know, the situation in terms
of me is a whole other chapter. You know, of
course I've been to not justice. Of course I got
wrongly convicted. Of course, you know there's a lot of
(17:25):
things that should never have happened to me. I've never
should have been put in this situation. But my parents
still deserve justice too.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
The entire interview can change. You may have a follow
up to that question, did you kill your parents? Why
would you kill your parents? Why are people saying you
killed your parents? Right, there's a lot of things that
we're going to want to ask.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
We want them to address the guilty version.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah, I mean sure, not just.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Their own innocent version, but we want them to talk
about why there's a guilty version.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
And I think again, because of the limited time we
with Brandon, I didn't want to go through all of
the evidence for or against the specific evidence that's the investigation,
and we wanted to make sure we got his story,
his direct experience, what was he doing, what was he experiencing,
what was his family like, you know, really stuff that
he could answer directly because the details of the investigation
(18:18):
we can get from other people, you know. So we
really were like, we just don't have time to go
to every single point. And it was hard because I
really wanted to ask a ton of detailed investigation questions.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
But there's also a human element to this, which is
we haven't experienced Brandon in person, and we may presume
he might be innocent or guilty, but that's like a
truth moment when you ask that question, look me in
the eye, you know, and every person has a different experience,
so you kind of hope that there isn't like a
huge silence when you asked a cause.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
But Brandon answered really quickly. I mean he said no,
I didn't So, Dan, how did he seem to you?
I mean, did Brandon seem hopeful when you first walked
into that room with him?
Speaker 9 (19:00):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I think knowing that he has people who believe him
helps him.
Speaker 9 (19:06):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
I think his grandmother is a huge support for him,
and the other members of his family who believe in
him are huge And for us to come in and say,
we just want to hear your story, you know, we
want to listen to what you have to say. He
was very appreciative of that. I mean, I think he
was happy that we were there talking to him. And again,
we don't make the promises like we're going to be
able to affect any change or you know, I didn't
(19:27):
come in and say, oh my god, I can't believe
you're so innocent and why are even you know what,
we can't make that I'm walking in asking him hard
questions and so, so.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
What were your hard questions?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
There were a couple of points that bothered me about
this case that I wanted to ask Brandon. One was
the dagger, which we spoke about in the last episode.
But his roommate said Brandon had a medieval looking dagger
in his dorm room and they found a medieval looking
dagger at the heath House and it had Dennis's DNA
on it. This to me looked really damning and it
(19:58):
was something that concerned me, like I wanted to know.
That was one of the ones I like, I have
to ask him directly. Was that your dagger?
Speaker 9 (20:04):
The dagger I know.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
That you did?
Speaker 9 (20:06):
You own one?
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Yes, said that you did, and then that fouance can
you describe what this is?
Speaker 9 (20:12):
Like what they said?
Speaker 6 (20:13):
Okay? Yeah?
Speaker 11 (20:16):
Uh so I actually did own what they called a
replica dagger, a replica dagger. Medieval Times Castle Dinner and
Tournament UH has and illusion horses in their production and
I was always a big fan of andalusion horses, and
there was a head trainer there named Marcilla Cancheris UH.
He actually works for Medieval Times in a tournament as
(20:36):
their head trainer, but he also shows horses UH in
the International and Illusion Horse Association. So in the tournament
when you see some of the horses bowing and laying
down or are going down in the in the jousting.
To the viewer's eyes, you know the horse they're in battle.
But to a trainer's eyes, they're trained to lay down.
They're trained to do these things. And so what you
(20:57):
basically had is like a dagger about this, and you
would use as points on a horse's body to get
the horse to bow, to get the horse to lay down,
but they weren't sharp. That's the key thing I want
to you know, emphasize on you're not going to put
a sharp blade against a horse's flesh and just take
a possibility that it's going to go through a horse.
So what I had was, in fact a dagger. My
(21:17):
roommate did see a dagger in my room and he
wanted me to go check what they call a resident
advisor to make sure, you know, I could have that
in the room. He said that the dagger, though, it
was longer than my palm. So he says, you know,
just take it out of the dorm room just because
you know, it's bigger than a pocket knife. And I said, okay,
no problem. That was the first week of school, and
I actually took it back to the barn where the
(21:38):
horses are being kept at.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
That was an important thing for me to ask him
because of course, and he went on to talk about
the dagger that he had, where he got it, the
size of it, and that was helpful for me because
then I said, Okay, now this is something that we
could go back and we could look into further, you know,
and I got his take on it directly.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
You know, for Brandon trying to come off as like
not rehearsed, I can't imagine like the night before, you know,
you have to do this interview and not just staying
up being like, Okay, these are the points I have
to hit and this is what I have to address,
and I have to answer their questions too, but also
get my love for my sister out, and my love
for my grandma out, and my innocence and all of that.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
And there's so many different things. Right, So what was
his relationship like with his parents? I wanted to know,
but really how this case affected him and his family.
They lost Dennis and Norma, the entire family lost these
two by all accounts, amazing people, right, Dennis's mother, Dennis's
family normous family all lost these two people, and Brandon
(22:35):
is accused of killing them. What is that like to
be accused of killing your parents and how does that
affect the entire family? And I think that for me
to ask him about his relationship with his grandmother, his
relationship with his sister, his relationship with other members of
his family, was important for me to.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Ask, well, let's go ahead and hear more from Brandon.
Speaker 11 (22:53):
So growing up with my sister was definitely a fun experience.
We were only thirteen months apart, so she was the
big sister, but you know, I kind of took on
the role of kind of like we're mutual, you know,
because we're so close together. Even though we were only
thirteen months apart, we were two grades apart, so you know,
growing up before school, we would you know, run around
(23:15):
the house and have fun and she would have her friends.
Speaker 6 (23:17):
I would have my friends.
Speaker 11 (23:18):
And then once we started going up into middle school
and too high school together, it was kind of like
my first year in high school as a sophomore, she
was already a senior, so it was kind of cool
having a senior as a sister. It was kind of like, yeah, well,
my sister was a senior, and she was on the
dance team, and she was always doing stuff with her
dance group, and she was you know, she was just
like a typical sister. She loved me, I loved her,
(23:40):
and you know, we had a good childhood. We had
a very good childhood in my opinion. So what is
this done to your father? You're being arrested for your parents,
what's stune to your pament?
Speaker 6 (23:53):
Me being arrested definitely has split some of my family members.
Speaker 11 (23:57):
I've got a lot of family members that support me,
that love me, that believe in me, that they know
the truth, and they stand up and they stand tall,
they stand confident, and you know, they're my rocks, They're
my angels. I've got some family members though, however, that
you know, are divided. They you know, it's sad in it,
and I really don't even like talking about it too much.
But it's like they believe that I killed my parents,
(24:20):
and that's just something very you know, hard to swallow sometimes.
And it's just like when I think about that, or
I hear that, you know, my sister, my own sister,
you know, she's kind of like basically she's took the
stand of the law enforcement side, and that hurts more
than really anything. It's just like you're supposed to know me,
(24:41):
Like we grew up together. We you know, we went
through so much together, and now you're just kind of like,
you know, it's just it's kind of difficult.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
The hurt.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Like Charlotte led the charge. Charlie's the one who came
down there and said he did it. Closest person to
him that was living still came down and said he
did it. He's lying, And that whole interview she did
with the police was so shocking, and he's clearly still
shocked by it, and he said, how could you believe
this about me? And you know we're so close, you
(25:15):
know me, how could you say this? It doesn't seem
like he's he's clearly been thinking about it for the
last almost twenty years, but he also seems like it's fresh.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Well, and talking to us is one of the few
ways he can get this affection he still feels for
his sister out into the world. You know, he can't
contact her directly. It's a strained relationship. Bonnie has told
us that. And so rather than in our interview be like,
I can't believe my sister said this stuff about me,
She's the worst. No, Instead, he's telling us how wonderful
(25:46):
their childhood was and how funny she is and how
she overcame some pretty serious stuff. And there's a lot
of grace in that, especially if you consider he's been
sitting in a cage for a very long.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Time and yeah, and that she has adamantly turned against
you and says you did it. Also, I thought that
the little ad he did where he said, you know,
we had a great childhood from my perspective, which I
think is the crux of it, because two people can
live the same experience or the same circumstance and have
different experiences, and it seems from what we look at
(26:22):
that she may have had a different experience at times
than he did with their childhood.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
So, in addition to Dan's interview with Brandon, we spoke
to him again later over the phone, and we didn't
necessarily have the same time restraint that you had Dan
when you guys were in prison, but we were still
dealing with some other obstacles. So let's talk about that
day we were down in Texas. We were at his
grandmother's house, and that adds a whole other layer to
(26:59):
the city situation. I mean, we've got his grandmother, like
his one loving family member, sitting there with us, and
I've got to ask him questions about his lifestyle, who
he was partying with, who was sleeping with, pornography like
all of that. And again, we are spending a lot
of time in this episode talking about being tender to
sensitive subject matter.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
She's very vulnerable, and again it's that responsibility that you
have this incredibly vulnerable, emotionally distraught person who you know,
she's raw. It's like a little bird in your hand.
It feels like that you have to take care of.
You might not want to use that metaphor. You have
to be so gentle around those people, and yet you
also have to do what we came here to do,
which is ask real questions.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
So specifically for prison phone calls that I am engaged
with just technically to shoot them. You can't just have
me sitting in a car by myself talking to someone
on the phone because there's not a level of visual communication, right,
it's stagnant. You can't live in it for longer than
(28:02):
a couple minutes. And so with a phone call like
Brandon having his grandmother there as a representative for Brandon
where we can see her face as he's talking. Seems
very important.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Absolutely. I think we had scheduled time for you Hillary
to be with Bonnie, and Bonnie is on Brandon's approved
call list, so that worked out really well that he
could call in like we can't call Brandon like he
has to initiate the phone call. So we didn't know
exactly when he was going to be able to call,
but we knew we were going to be at Bonnie's
house on this particular day, and we're just whenever he
(28:37):
called was when you would be able to have that
conversation with him. So he was organized and it was
set up, but it was still very unpredictable, right.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
You don't know if they're going to go on lockdown
that day in the prison, or if he'll just change
his mind, or if you know, power lines go down
and her phone doesn't work and there's no telling what's
going to happen.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
There's a long line that day and he doesn't get
to the phone in time because they have a certain
amount of minutes that they can talk on the phone
and then the next one comes and if he gets
cut off before then, it doesn't happen that day. There's
a whole lot of factors that go into the phone
call coming to Bonnie and you being able to talk
to him.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
So let's just listen to that phone call because the
problems become clear right away.
Speaker 6 (29:21):
Just stick with the two.
Speaker 12 (29:24):
Hello, Yes, Michael, hewnit and this call is being retorted
and project quoring.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Dark the conversation.
Speaker 10 (29:44):
Hey, Brandon, where we're talking to It's Hillary Hilary here.
We're talking to Hillary. It's great. Let me hold understand
he keep okay, okay, can you hear me?
Speaker 7 (30:02):
I can hear you?
Speaker 9 (30:04):
Okay, Yeah, Well, why do I need to try to
call about my burning if I'm going five?
Speaker 6 (30:08):
But we're going to actually call back up from.
Speaker 9 (30:11):
A hot time in so I just kind of if
I'm tying okay and I need anything else for me?
Speaker 6 (30:18):
And Hi, Brandon, I'm just happy to talk to you myself.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Your grandmother put you on speakerphone, but I didn't want
to ambush you. It's so nice to sit here with
her and learn more about your family. How are you?
Speaker 9 (30:35):
Everything you are doing? Like it really means a lot
to me. I was talking to them and I was
just like Basically I need as much exposure as I
can get because I feel like the more people that
hear my story are like listening to all the facts
and not just like martial effects. And I think that
might you know, can lead to something, you know, really
happening big.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
So why do you feel like your case hasn't gotten exposure?
Speaker 9 (30:59):
You know in the beginning, you know, when I first
got arrested, Like when I'm very first was charged, I
was screaming so loud, and I felt like, well, nobody's
really listening to me. I mean, it's a core group
of people that known me from you know, a board,
they happen in me and do anybody was like, nobody
wasn't really wanted to hear me.
Speaker 6 (31:18):
So I reached out to a Channel eleven.
Speaker 9 (31:20):
Interview, and after that interview, my attorneys were like, well
there's a media gad or you can't talk.
Speaker 6 (31:26):
To nobody else at that stuff. I was like, it's
anybody talking.
Speaker 9 (31:30):
And then you know, a lot of people, a lot
of attorneys will tell us, and especially tell my family,
that we don't need talking about the carriers, We don't
need to bring nothing up. We need to keep you know, investigating,
do this but after so much time was coming in prison,
and you're like, hey, nobody's listening. Others reaching out to
many people that were just listening actually look at everything,
and I feel like, you know, it's coming to a
(31:51):
point where you know, it's been over fifteen years where
it's nothing really happening, you know that's really getting anybody's interest.
And it's like, I just think one of people a
stright here, like I can't believe that happened, And I'm like,
interminated you to assist in there, Please hang up.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
And try your call again.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
We got disconnected a few times, they believe during that call,
Brandon sounds desperate to me when he begins to talk
to you.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
He is trying so hard to get his story out.
Like from the very beginning, he was like newspeople, news people,
anyone who has a vehicle a platform to put this
story out outside of my small community, please listen to
my story.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
As I look over our notes, I want to talk
about that frantic energy because he's trying to fit so
much information into each response. And so again we run
into another SoundBite that we're going to play for you
guys here where he gets cut off mid monologue. Are
they also focusing on the hairs found in your mother's hand?
Speaker 9 (32:55):
So basically they want to pick a hair. My grandmother's
like my angel throughout the whole thing, and you know
it's really hard to you know, for working people that
I've worked on her eye take the cow when you
got this pen and the state obviously they can't do that. Basically,
it's to make your wrist and we can text, you know,
(33:16):
pick the avail. The state argue you guys, they weren't
going to pay for it, so we were able to.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Did we lose him?
Speaker 7 (33:28):
Mm hmmmm, I bet it won't do it? You said,
kept beeping, didn't it. Yeah, maybe you'll call back, Maybe
I'll get.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
To her portable phone died in the middle of that,
and then we had to just hope that Brendan was
going to call back again.
Speaker 9 (33:42):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, think I changed the batteries for her.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
You changed the battery, I said, Andrew showed up like
another grandson, like to change batteries and like get her
phone or the.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Phone in from the other room to have a Yeah.
I mean that's difficult. One of the reason you can't
control it. Yeah, you just can't control and you have
to just kind of go with it.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
And this is the kind of stuff that happens all
the time, and it's especially hard when you have that
prison thing. But this is why we keep Andrew around
because he can kind of fix anything. It's maguiver, he's
a macguver and he'll definitely fix things in people's houses,
stoves and you know, lights that are malfunctioning.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Okay, So then we had to dive into more of
the lifestyle stuff in front of Bonnie. Dan, did you
feel any hesitation broaching that kind of subject matter with her?
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Well, I mean I spoke with Bonnie a few days
before you came in and spoke with her, and so
I waded into that water gently. But she has certainly
come to terms with the situation that Brandon is in,
and she certainly has talked about it at enough times,
and she loves Brandon and supports Brandon. And I think
that in talking to her, she seemed comfortable talking about
(34:47):
Brandon and his lifestyle and any of the situations that's
around the case. So I felt like she was okay,
she was okay to talk about these things. Well, did
you feel that way?
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Her son, Dennis is obviously like the light of her life.
She loved, loved, loved her son. She talked about how
he was the one that kept the family together and
he was the helper for everybody, and so having her
validate what Brandon says about his father's acceptance of his
lifestyle was really important because if she thought her son
(35:20):
would have had a bias, she would have said so.
And so when I was on the phone with Brandon,
I asked him directly about his dad and whether he
would have had any bias about his sexuality. This motive
that law enforcement suggested you had where you were scared
your parents were going to find out about your lifestyle.
Speaker 9 (35:42):
My dad was John J. Middle. My dad is not
going to convince somebody that held her being gay, period.
And I was his son. I was somebody that he
loved and who he took care of.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I think what was really interesting because a big motive
that was presented was that Brandon's parents found out that
he was and that became a big blow up and
then that's what caused him to kill them. And you
know that this was a motive, right, And I think
that asking Brandon about that what his folks knew about
his sexuality was super important, and so we asked him
that in prison too.
Speaker 11 (36:14):
But my parents are always supportive of me, and they
always were supportive of me, and so to for somebody
to even think that, oh, well, because he's gay, he
could have killed his parents. Absolutely not my dad. You know,
my dad, like I said, knew my dad was supportive.
My dad did tell me, you know, to always just
let him know. And you know, he knew I was
going to gay clubs.
Speaker 6 (36:32):
He knew that.
Speaker 11 (36:33):
He knew my first boyfriend was on the phone with
my dad multiple times because my dad is not gonna
let me ride around wherever I want to go without
telling anyone, you know, somewhere that I was going. I
don't know if he told my mom or not, but
definitely my dad knew and definitely didn't have a problem
with it. And you know, that's just that's that's one
of the most craziest ideas for people to think. But
you know, I think coming from a small town, it's
(36:54):
easy to put that stigma on gay is wrong, Gay
is this? Gay is you know, And so it's definitely
something that should have even been really discussed. If people
would personalize my parents and personalized who they were as
people they would know that there's no way my parents
would care. I could have been saying I was in
love with the cow, and my parents would say, well,
we love you. You're crazy, but we love.
Speaker 9 (37:12):
You, you know.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
And I think he was so offended that the idea
that his parents would be so judgmental. I think if
you listened to.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Him so presumptuous, I mean, bigotry on his parents the victims.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah, and it's an assumption. I mean, Noel even says
Brandon was, you know, doing things that his father wouldn't
have approved of, you know, like he makes.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
This like he didn't even know these people. Art That
line that Noel says, it's so unequivocable the way he
states it, and it's wild.
Speaker 8 (37:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
So it was great to get Brandon that opportunity to
basically say, no, my dad was protective of me. I
made sure he knew my boyfriend's he knew what clubs
I was going to, you know. I thought that was
super important to hear that from Brandon, but.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Also important to hear from other people to see if
that's some smoke and mears he's throwing up about his
parents when it wasn't really true. And Bonnie definitely confirms
that about her son.
Speaker 7 (38:04):
Dennis didn't have a problem with someone being gay, because
Dennis just accepted people for who they were. He he
was just a people person and he loved people, and
so would he wouldn't have disowned anyone for that.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Reason, because Dennis had no problem with Brandon's sexuality, and
that brings us to the seed that was planted at
the beginning of this case, the seed that Brandon was
acting differently and should be looked at closely. Now we
can't say if Brandon is inno center guilty, but we
can look at the investigation and the trial and point
(38:51):
to the fact that Brandon was treated differently due to
his sexuality. And so next episode we will have a
candid conversation around LGBTQIA plus rights, not only back in
the early two thousands, but today as well, because despite
some progress, there are still attempts to curb their rights.
(39:13):
I asked this question at the end of the TV episode,
and I still wonder, in all the years since Brandon's trial,
are we really any better. That's it for this week's
(39:38):
episode of True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here, but
be sure to join us next week as we dive
deeper into the brandon woodrift case.
Speaker 11 (39:46):
They're trying to say that I had this sinister side
because I had this completely hidden lifestyle. What it simply
was was I just didn't tell certain people at this
time because I didn't really know for myself.
Speaker 6 (39:56):
I didn't know what one.
Speaker 11 (39:56):
Hundred percent that I was gay or bisexual, whether I
wanted to go try to get back with my girlfriend
or a boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Join us next week as we continue to roll up
our sleeves and dig in. Thank you so much for
joining us. If you haven't watched Sundance TV's True Crime
Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you can catch all of
our episodes streaming on AMC Plus. For more information about
this and other cases we've covered, follow at ice HH
(40:26):
stories on Instagram. True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here
was produced by Mischief Farm in association with Bungalow Media
and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions, and Figdonia in partnership with
Sundance TV. Executive producers are me Hillary Burton, Morgan, Liz Accessor,
(40:47):
Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie
Robinson Katz and Libby Siegel. Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton,
with original music by Philip radiotech Us. We want to
say a special thank you to everyone who participated, but
especially the family is impacted by our cases.
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