Forensic expert and Body Bags host Joseph Scott Morgan joins to dissect the chilling crime scenes in the Idaho College Murders — and unpacks the disturbing Microsoft Word document uncovered in the Gilgo Beach (LISK) investigation. Meanwhile, Baudi dives into the dramatic reindictment of Barry Morphew, once accused of murdering his wife before charges were dropped for lack of evidence. Now, he's back in the spotlight after a stunning new discovery. Tune in for all the details.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight. It is Sunday in June
twenty second, and we are here talking true crime all
the time. Listen. I know it feels like the world
has gone crazy, but we are settling in. Pull up
your proverbial chair. We are just hunkering down right now
and having a big conversation about all the things that
we can control, which is a conversation about forensics. We're
(00:40):
going to do a very big deep dive tonight. We
have a stacked night. We're going to be talking about Lisk,
the Long Island serial killer, and all of the scary
forensics that go with that, as well as the Idaho
College murders. Again, the forensics are a big piece of
this case, so we're going to unpack that further and
also the latest developments in the HS been in Colorado
(01:01):
after years, he's officially been arrested and charged with his
wife's murder. So so much to get to. I'm Stephanie
Leidecker and I head of Kat Studios where we make
true crime podcasts and documentaries, and I get to do
that with Courtney Armstrong, crime producer and host and crime
analyst and host Body Move In. And tonight we are
(01:21):
doing an extra extra special thing because we have our
very own forensics expert, Joseph Scott Morgan here with us tonight.
He was here with us last Sunday, and now he's
back for the second Sunday, which means there is nothing
but trouble ahead and he's going to really do a
deep dive with us. If you don't know Joseph's work,
you for sure will recognize his face. He's been on
every news show you could possibly imagine. I think he's
(01:44):
done over two hundred and fifty appearances this year alone
on the news every major outlet. Also, he's appeared on
all of our documentaries Murdered and Missing in Montana, the
Pie County Murders. He'll also be a big contributor in
the Idaho College Murders that is coming out soon, also
to be seen on Peacock. And he's also been in
(02:04):
all of our podcasts, The Piked and Massacre, The Idaho Massacre.
He's also the host of Body Bags a podcast we
don't make, but we wish we did. We're about to
dig in to all things forensics. So Joseph, after the
longest introduction ever, we're so happy you're here and can't
wait to dig in further.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Yeah, I'm good to be with you, guys. I'm exhausted
after all of that. Veron is a.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Lot, right, So just what is at the stage? Setting
the stage? And I know we're going to do a
deep dive into the Long Island serial killer and the
forensics there are really important because again, this is a case.
I'm from Long Island originally, this is a case. It's
very close to my heart and we've all been following
it so closely. And really you're the guy and body
(02:46):
if you wouldn't mind just like filling us in a
little bit, give us the backstory.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Just a very quick trigger warning. We're about to discuss
some very very disturbing specifics in this case, some violent
in of a sexual nature. So listener discretion is strongly advised,
very quick. I mean, this is very horrific stuff. So
a Microsoft word document with eighty seven disturbing details has
(03:11):
come to light, and you know it's shedding a lot
more insight into LISK and everything that he did. He
was very organized. He had plans for how to murder,
including like supplies such as like cat litter and tarps,
dump sites, location recon reports, what to do with specific
body parts, and prep. Rex Huerman is our suspect. He's
(03:34):
going to be turning sixty years old next month. He
was arrested on July thirteenth of twenty twenty three on
suspicion of being the Long Island serial Killer. And you'll
we refer to that as LISC LSK because Long Island
Serial Killer is kind of hard to say. So LISK
case involved eleven bodies found in the Gilgo Beach area
(03:55):
from nineteen ninety three to twenty eleven. Rex has been
linked to seven of those murders forensically and alleged to
be involved with two others. He's not yet linked to
the remaining two murders. So there's a lot of bodies,
there's a lot of victims, and this list, this.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
List, that list, just to add to that. You know,
we've had guests on before who have said, listen, there's
this core group that you know he's been associated with,
but it could be many many many anymore, And just
to give a little context to this particular place, this
isn't a really beautiful place on Long Island. Again I'm partial,
I'm from there, but it's about an hour outside of
(04:34):
New York City and it's suburbia. But it's also on
a bay obviously, it's called you know, Oyster Bay Massapequa.
This is a really lovely, peaceful, special place that you know,
everybody knows their neighbors. People are kind and considerate. It's
so close to New York City, but at the same
time it's a small town. So for something this wild
(04:56):
to have occurred is pretty unimaginable. And I can say
for myself grow up and even my older brothers, this
is something that wrecked Long Island for many, many, many
many years. It was unsolved. It really went unnoticed. On
top of that, and we can get into that later.
But honestly, this was a very surprise ending. This particular
architect from New York City Rex Humor in the accused,
(05:18):
he claims his innocence. He's a married man, has two kids,
and was commuting into New York City on the train
every day. The way we all did, myself included with
his daughter to his fancy architect job. So for him
to be the guy that's been you know, said to
be the Long Island serial killer, it's really unexpected. So
(05:40):
just a stage setter.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
No, that's really good background in for it to have.
So this hard drive recovered from Hureman's basement has this
word document and the document is called HK two thousand
and two DASH four. Don't really know what that means yet.
Some people are speculating that it means highway killer, but
again that's literally speculation. Nobody knows what it means. It
(06:03):
appears to be like a planning document, like a checklist
of sorts, right, and there's like columns and like little
line items, and it looks like they're connected to everything
that you have to do in order to be successful
at hiding you know, this crime, planning this crime and whatnot.
(06:23):
And it's hard to go into all the details because
it's so gruesome. But just as an example, I'm just
going to do a very quick example problems. There's a
heading is called problems. The problems are fingerprints, witnesses, shoe prints,
police stops, hair and fiber. So he's recognizing things that
(06:44):
can happen, right, like issues that you might run into.
Another column is called supplies, and here's some supplies booties,
lie and acid, a police scanner, hairnets, a burn can,
medical gloves, argo strap. And then there's one that is
called pre prep, get a vehicle inspection, check the weather.
(07:08):
I mean, he's wait system list of as soon to
be serial killer who is putting into plan, the greatest
list in his mind, the sickest list in hours in
history of just how to stay organized when deciding to
murder again and again.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
And by the way, it's alleged that this man again
he says, he's you know, innocent, so we are not
claiming guilt, but he may have been. If what we
are hearing is accurate and true. Allegedly, he will have
been killing before he got married. So this is something
that would potentially have been going on for years and
years and years, and you know, remains technically unsolved.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
So, Joseph, two questions for you just getting into this list. One,
what if any items particularly stick out to you? And
two would you say that this potentially categorizes Humorman who
is alleged but as an organized killer versus a disorganized killer.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Well, let's say the first one for me, this seems
very passive. Okay, but if you go to the list
that he is alleged to have created in this word
document that that body had referenced, there's the header themes
to remember. And for me, one of the things that
(08:31):
really kind of pops on here is get sleep before
hunt too tired, and he misspells creates, He spells at
C R E A T S problems and then he
references sleep again where he talks about more sleep, and
interestingly enough, noise control equals are you ready for this
(08:54):
more playtime? And I use the term.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
With a victim.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
I don't know. Yeah, either that or he's referencing how
he will be prepared for more playtime. I don't know, really,
you know how you kind of suss that out? And
that's to me. You're in this real granular area, you know,
when you begin to think about these things. Interestingly enough,
(09:21):
I'll kind of add this on as a side. You know,
he he had read, like many of us did. He
had read Douglas's book. I think that came out back
in ninety six, the mind Hunter book, which of course
the Netflix series is loosely based upon, and in there
John kind of details out, you know, these killers and
the genesis of the behavioral science unit. But in there
(09:43):
he talks about organized versus disorganized, and organized versus disorganized
is not something that you can look at with killers
and say this is absolutely an organized person. This is
a disorganized because there's shades of gray in here. If
you're asking me, if if I were just to look
at the list alone, I would say that this is
(10:04):
a mind that is solely focused on the task at
hand from a forensic standpoint, because he even goes so
far as to talk about removal of marks of torture,
which if you've got bindings, for instance, and you're going
to have kind of some people refer to it as
a rub rash, but it's actually an abrasion that goes
(10:26):
around the risk from restraint, you have to get rid
of that. Well, how do you get rid of that? Well,
you go back to the burn can and you talk
about he well allegedly talks about the disposal of remains,
and here as well, he even goes down And this
is quite interesting because I talk about this all the
(10:46):
time when I'm talking about forensic autopsis and sexual assault cases.
He actually talks about two big pieces here clipping of
the nails or getting rid of evidence that might be
beneath the nails, if you're talking about some might offend
in themselves. And then in addition to that, this is
hard to say, he talks about cleaning orifices.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Yeah, the entire all cavities.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Right, yeah, yeah, and that's a flushing that goes on.
And why would he do that, Well, he's trying to
get rid of any kind of seminal deposition that might
be there if he completes sexual act within the victim,
and also anything that goes on with any kind of
blood deposition on his part.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
We will be back with many more investigative information bites
for you.
Speaker 6 (11:35):
Joseph Scott Morgan will be here.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Hopefully you will as well if you give us a
call eight at eight three to one crime and we
have other cases to follow. Keep it here on True
Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
We have forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and he is
you know, Kat Family. You can catch him on all
of our podcasts and all of our documentaries quite literally,
also the host of Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.
You've had us a little slightly edge of our seats.
I literally lost what I was talking about because I
was listening to closely to the last track. Killer list. Yeah,
(12:19):
there's a list. So just to fill everybody in about
what we're talking about. Rex Hureorman is the accused Long
Island serial killer. He's currently behind bars awaiting trial. He's been,
you know, associated with seven of the eleven women who
have lost their lives tragically over the last you know,
decades on Long Island. And he was a married man.
(12:42):
He's divorced now, but his wife and his two children
loved him deeply and honestly, his arrest was a very
big deal because he was an architect from New York City.
A very unexpected ending here. So it turns out we're
learning that this alleged killer had a kill list basically
the types of things that you would put on your
(13:02):
laundry list or your grocery list, or your task list
for your errands on the weekend. This guy, the accused, allegedly, allegedly,
allegedly Rex Humor Man, had a really organized list about,
you know, how to murder people and to do it
efficiently and to get the most play out of it.
So again trigger alert, But Joseph, back to this list.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Yeah, back to this list. So I'm gonna jump in, Joseph,
I'm going to read some more from this list. So
some of the some of the bodies. So, Joseph, this
is why I'm so excited to talk to you. As
this body prep. So in this list, this a list
that's allegedly from Rex's computer. There's a column called body
prep and on there it says remove trace evidence, fingerprints, hair.
(13:50):
You know you would mention that, remove trace, DNA, remove
id mars ie, tattoos and marx.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
How do you remove them? What does that even mean?
Speaker 4 (14:00):
How do you think you had, like, say you had
a tattoo on your shoulder, you sure you would remove
the skin and that's where the burn can comes in.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Right, Yeah, So if I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
No, no, no, please, yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
If you're and this is a thought that I had
on this. If one were to remove a tattoo, that
would be a very specific dissection. We we've actually had
to do this in the more before to preserve things,
and there's a certain way that you treat that sample,
but not not for an individual that's trying to do
a removal of an identifying mark, and you would need
(14:42):
an instrument that would facilitate this a straight edge, you
would probably need pickups, which are for our fancy term
for for force ups, surgical scissors, and of course scalpel
unless you're going to be very very crude about it.
What's really interesting is that he's talking. And this goes
(15:04):
to a bigger point I think in this list is
mentioned lie and acid as well, which if you're going
to facilitate destruction of tissue like the soft tissue, you
can render it down. It springs me to another point
because if this individual or the individual that has been
(15:24):
committing these acts that there are other people that could
potentially victims that could be on his radar. The ones
that have been found are dumb luck because if he
took the time, or the individual that did these took
the time to hunt, and he makes reference to hunting.
If I stay in the area too long, I'll draw
attention hunting. That's a reference on the list. Then, if
(15:48):
he's taken out other people and he has the means
and the guts, the intestinal fortitude to do it, are
there other bodies that were completely rendered down and that
is possible to do it, you need time to do
it and dispose of them. And the first step on
this because of the vastness of the water, the water surface.
(16:09):
You've got the Atlantic Ocean on one side and then
you've got this marshy area on the other side. There's
things out there that will do the trick for you.
Just the crab population alone in that area will do
the job for you. I know that because I'm from
Louisiana and the job that they do on bodies and
this is really gruesome stuff, but it's the reality of
what you're seeing kind of born out here potentially.
Speaker 6 (16:31):
So two questions.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
One is ten crabs actually decompose or get rid of
an entire body.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
They ingest the body. Yeah, yeah, any crustacean like that. Yeah, Well,
in South Louisiana, for instance, crawfish are one of the biggest,
and then blue crabs down there up north you have crab,
you have lobster. So yeah, any numbers.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
So there's more things on this list. You guys like
this list. I mean, we could do a whole show
on just this list.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Because just so one last thing to throw in, just
in case you're not completely familiar with this case. We're
talking about the Long Island serial killer accused of killing
seven women, and there's potentially much many more to come.
But the allegation that we're really focusing on now is
that this man, this architect, lived in a neighborhood, in
this lovely, beautiful, frankly affluent neighborhood right on the water
(17:28):
and picturesque. It's like the kind of thing you like,
go to university, and like he was kind of a
boring guy, a really sleepy neighbor. Nobody trick or treated
at their house because on the block and maybe you've
seen this house, you know, I remember a house similar
to this when I was growing up. It was like
the one house you skipped. You didn't go to that
house on Halloween. It was just, you know, unlike the others,
(17:50):
it was mismatched, and really it seemed like nobody had
cared about it for a really long time, even the
fact that he was an architect and had a family there.
It just felt a little displaced. But that's not the point.
They allegedly in his basement he had a bit of
a vault, and what he's being accused of is that
there was a vault in this suburban home in the
basement that lacked any audios, So nobody could hear any
(18:14):
screams or cries while two children and your wife are upstairs,
and that allegedly some of the victims were being brought there,
lured there, and tortured for endless amounts of time, and
that there was this corresponding list, a kill list of
things to keep him organized, to put into place when
he had said woman trapped. And by the way, these
(18:35):
victims were loved and missed and really lovely young women
who had lives ahead, So you know, it's unparallel tragedy.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Yeah, now, certainly that's important to note. Thank you, Stephanie.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
I had a question and I don't know if anyone
has the answer to Stephanie. You just said untold amounts
of time. And interesting to note is that if the
facts that we know are true, that many of these
crimes did take place exactly actly when his wife was
out of town.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
So that's one thing.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
But on the list something that stuck out to me,
and this is under notes section, so it's not in
pre prep or dispose of, but one of the notes
is Stockholm syndrome, which to me would indicate that some
of these people were potentially were there for quite some time.
Does anyone. As have people been talking about that and
I missed it.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I've heard a bit about it, and I can speak
to it a little bit. You know, Stockholm syndrome. I'm
gonna just totally muck this up. I'm not a therapist,
but I think Stockholm syndrome is referencing a specific woman
who was held captive famously, and she with a gun
to her head famously like it like kind of embraced
(19:44):
in a way air quotes her captor, the person who
was going to kill her with a gun to her head.
She spoke to him emotionally. She's sort of tapped into
sort of his mental headspace, not because she was loving
him or liking him, but simply because he was the
greatest danger facing her. Allegedly, there were like you know,
(20:05):
bomb scare people outside and people that were going to
like talk this killer off the ledge, and this woman
knew enough to say, I'm going to look this man
in the eye with a gun to my head and
somehow relate to him as a human and ultimately that worked.
It got later kind of confused by like, oh, she
loved her captor, and that's not love. That was survival. Survival.
(20:28):
It was literally like risk management times of bajillion. So
Stockholm syndrome if that's on his list, is also extra psycho,
because that would imply a relationship between him as a
killer and his victim. And I can promise you these
women did not want to be there by any stretch
of the imagination. And we're petrified for the ead.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
I actually think that that could be his perception of it.
He's trying to superimpose perhaps the idea that of course
they're going to love me because I'm doing this with
them and for them, it doesn't matter how much I
terrorize them.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
Well, on his list is toys, get rid of toys,
like this was all play to him.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
This was all like, it's super fun for the woman
hanging by her neck from your ceiling, so fun, such play.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Speaking of one of the things on his checklists and
under things to remember is use heavy rope for neck
light rope broke under stress of being tightened. So he's
like making a mistake and he's learning from it, right,
and then he's correcting it until the next time.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Yeah, I mean this is going to need something that's
that's robust. Well, and he talks about the indication. Yeah,
he did. And of course, going back to the hard point,
if you just think about placing an eyebolt into a
beam overhead, that could be a hard point for him,
a place for suspension. But it's fascinating the light rope
(21:54):
thing versus the heavier rope, more robust rope. That means
that maybe there's spending variance there, that something occurred with
one of the preceding victims where they knew that he knew,
they knew that he needed something a bit more robust
that would handle.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Yeah, he's learning from all his mistakes. Another thing on
this list, he he has like some things and and
here's the thing we don't know what means, but there's
a post event destroy file. So he must have kept
a file for each victim. And I don't think they've
recovered those yet. They have, they haven't released them. Yeah,
chant yeah, photos photos. Yeah, we'll stick with us here.
(22:36):
We're going to be continuing this conversation with Joseph and
he's going to walk us through the potential vulnerabilities in
the Idaho crime scene. Stick with us right here for
true crime.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Tonight, we've been talking about very scary things regarding the
Long Island serial killer forensics. And now moving on to
yet another very scary case involving forensics, the Idaho college
(23:06):
murders accused Brian Coberger is looking to stand trial in August.
And again, if you're not familiar with this case, for
incredible students Kayleie Gonzalvez, Xana Cronodle, Madison Mogan, and Ethan
Chapin all lost their lives one night, same house, same university,
(23:26):
very very regular college night, and then suddenly they're all killed.
And the person who was arrested and is now about
to stand a death sentence trial was also a PhD
criminology student studying the actual acts that he's now accused
of from a neighboring school. So it's a very complicated case,
(23:48):
mostly because there doesn't appear to be a really good,
not good, it's not the right word, but a really
strong connection between the four victims and the accused killers.
So you know, that's kind of rare. Usually we see love, revenge, money,
there's usually some sort of a backstory, and this one
seems to have very little cross section, which frankly makes
(24:09):
it like every scary movie we've ever seen. And Joseph,
you've been at the forefront of this. You were on
the phone when these murders happened. I think you were
the first person I spoke to, and it seemed unimaginable.
And now with this trial approaching, the forensics are more
significant than ever, and we're so glad that you're here
to unpack them.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I'm glad to be here with you, guys. I guess
looking back in time, how many years has it been now?
Where it's been year?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah, Yeah. What shocked me initially was how long it
took to hook somebody up on charges. I really thought
a town that small, that they'd have the pricelets on
somebody really really quick. And of course I think we
had to wait a month and a half, you know,
before they were able to do that.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, and there was a man hunt, like a national manhunt.
We were all petch of fight and everybody in that small,
beautiful town imagine college students. It took a beautiful place, really,
all locking the doors and you know, bracing for it
because there was a killer at large, a dangerous killer
at large.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
So since we have Joseph here, let's like ask him
some crime scene questions. You guys, good with that? Yes, yes,
So Joseph. Let's let's talk about like the initial walkthrough
and investigation of the scene. What are some of the
things that a quadruple murder scene, especially in a small town,
would have, Like what are some of the things that
you would expect and you know, what would the first
(25:34):
responders have seen and done?
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Well, if you've got first responders rolling in, which is
you know, commonly what you think about the first officer
there was, but more particularly fire service or EMTs, because
they don't know what they're walking into. They have to
go in and assess, and we make a bit of
support of them many times because they you know, they
mess up the scene sometimes for us, but that's not
their job. Their job is to try to save lives
(25:59):
and God bless they saved my life before. So they
have to go in and assess, but they're immediately supposed
to back out, and the police that are there, even
the young youngest uniform cop there, knows to tell them
to get out. Once the scene is locked down, you
have to make sure that it's safe. That's the key.
So they'll be what's referred to as an initial walkthrough
(26:20):
just to secure the scene. So you'll have the police
officers literally going and I'm talking about uniforms now going
from room to room just to make sure that there's
no one else in there, first off, that needs medical assistance,
or secondly, no one that's going to attack them or
attacked whoever is going to follow up, and you're adrenalinist popped,
(26:41):
really pumping at this point in time. It's terrifying. And
so once it's cleared, once it's clear they're not doing
a search for evidence, they're actually doing a search. They're
actually doing a search for a perpetrator. Once they've established
that it's safe, you have to back out. Everybody there,
Every principal backs out. Thing is locked down. They set
up a perimeter. We always see the yellow tape. There's
(27:02):
a reason we have yellow tape. That means do not
cross this boundary that yours, the side is ours. And
then you wait for a warrant. You have to wait
for a warrant, and that generally comes about as a
result of detective showing up and consulting with a DA
They drop a warrant and go to magistrate a judge.
This is what we need. We don't want to go
back in here. There's no exception for homicides constitutionally interesting.
(27:26):
In fact, you need those protections.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Tell that I did not know that.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
Now I think I knew that, but I never really
thought about it.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
So wait, if I walk in, if I'm a cop
and I walk into this crazy crime scene, God forbid,
and I walk into the house and it's quiet, and
I'm looking, I'm looking for danger. Obviously, maybe there's somebody
who is hiding, who's an assailant, maybe there are other victims.
But if I see sort of like a closet a jar,
(27:53):
and I look in and I don't see a person,
but maybe I see some blood trickling on the floor,
do I look further or do I have to wait
for the warrant?
Speaker 3 (28:03):
No? No, if you see blood emanating, you can push
it open and you're going to have your weapon out.
You're going to clear it and make sure that there
is nobody in there. So we're not going to go
digging through the compt I can't.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Go through the drawers for example, or anything.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
No, no, no, no, no, no. That that's Foreboden. You
can't do it to prior to having a warrant, understood.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
So, Joseph, at this scene, my understanding was that there
were many people through the scene and do you have
any thoughts on how secure it was or wasn't, And
also about Prosecutor Bill Thompson going.
Speaker 6 (28:39):
Through the scene.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, it would be one of my biggest questions, Like
if I was if I was using this case an
example to teach at the police academy or even at
the university, we would closely examine this case. And I
hate to question why, but for me, I would say,
why would you make this choice moving forward? Because if
you choose to allow anybody across that threshold, that is
(29:04):
not processing the scene, and that means photography, trace, evance, corner, okay, measurements.
Other than that, no one else needs to go in there.
My understanding was Prosecutor maybe some of his teammates went
in there potentially. I have little or no tolerance for that.
I've been out on scenes where I've had sheriffs walk in.
(29:28):
They have been on a crime scene in twenty years,
but yet they go under the tape. They have no
reason to be there. That's why they keep somebody at
the door with a list, and you have a lot
when you walk in and that Yeah, the log is
you hear about the mystery log. The log. You can
have that subpoena and the attorneys can say, sheriff, why
were you here? You know or I guess you could
(29:50):
technically subpoena compel the DA to testify what's your purpose
for walking through the scene, And they're going to come
up with something like, well, we just wanted to contextualize,
saying now you let the investigators contextualize it for you.
You tell them, no, one, this is like walking into
a freaking surgery suite. If you're not washed up, if
(30:10):
you're not scrubbed up, if you're not covered, you have
no business being there. There's there's no explanation in the
world for you being there. And so that's that's really
something to defense I think can attack if these rumors
are true.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
And that's significant just for the play along. If you're
not familiar with, you know, very violent crime scenes. Is
that look, it's it's sacred if you're entering a crime
scene and it's not meant to be that you're there
and you're not properly washed and you're not I know
this only because I get to work with Joseph Scott Morgan.
If you're entering a crime scene you're contaminating it. Potentially
(30:44):
every person has every person has DNA that they're you know,
air quotes shedding. Such a gross term, but you know
we are right. Or think about it. You walk into
a crime scene, you're wearing certain shoes, it's disrupting the scene.
And later at trial, even if it's not really disruptive,
it gives a real crack into the system for the
defense to say, Hey, we're talking about DNA, we're talking
(31:08):
about blood, We're talking about very important things that could
put a person to death. How was this crime scene handled?
We saw this with the OJ Simpson case. I've learned
this through Joseph Scott Morgan Daily. You know how that
is handled much like a surgical suite. You wouldn't just put,
you know, a party planner as a pilot and have
them land the plane right. It's very specific and therefore
(31:31):
has to be handled with care.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Yeah, for me, people get sick and tired of me
hearing me say this. But our patron saint in forensics
is Edmond Lecard. This guy lived over one hundred years ago.
O or to anybody within the sound of my voice,
look him up. It came up with a theory or
with this treatisy that he developed over one hundred years
ago that says every not some, but every contact leaves
(31:57):
a trace. So you're dragging in any evidence you have
on your person in there, and you're also taking stuff
away and so and Mond got that right. It even
applause in digital forensics, if you can imagine that now,
all those years ago he developed that construct, and it's
fascinating to me and to see. And what's really fascinating
(32:17):
is that our public officials still haven't learned a lesson
that's being taught for over a century now.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Craziness, because it really does affect the trial.
Speaker 7 (32:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
So here we are on the eve of Brian Coberger,
the accused trial. He claims his innocence. It's a death
sentenced trial scheduled for August. He's asked for and continuous.
It doesn't seem as though it's going to get delayed,
but you know, we shall wait and see body and Courtney,
we've all been following it very closely, Joseph, as had you,
of course. But the crime scene being brought into question
(32:48):
is problematic potentially.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Yeah it is. And listen, I'm not saying that they
did anything wrong surely, but these are areas that this
is an air area where the defense can pick this
apart and they're going to try to do that house process.
All you have to do is look back to that
fateful day when they had the crom scene cleanup unit
(33:12):
that are company that was outside of that house. They'dn't
even set up a tent to go in there. They're
wearing their bunny suits before they go in the white
suits to clean it up. Just to look to that,
and we'll talk about due.
Speaker 6 (33:25):
Care then that's right.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
So I had Joseph have the pleasure of speaking about
this on the last season of the Idaho Massacre podcast,
and we touched on with the initial investigation of any
scene in this scene, in particular, how you handle when
there's an animal there, because there was a dog in
this lovely friendly house of all of the college roommates.
Speaker 6 (33:52):
So could you walk people through that a little bit?
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Well, first off, not trying to sound cruel, but because
I'm a big dog lover, but that dog is evidence
to a great degree because if there was any harm
that was perpetrated upon that animal, let's just talk in generalities.
First off, that dog, that dog would need to be
(34:15):
closely examined, closely examined for injuries. Do they pair up
or marry up with any kind of injuries maybe a
victim has sustained. I'm talking from the perspective of cases
that I've worked. Where an animal is present, then you're
going to want to look for trace evidence on the dog,
because dogs are interesting relative to their masters. I've walked,
I've come onto scenes where I've had a dog that
(34:39):
is seated adjacent to their master's body, and the master's
been dead for a long time. They won't move, and
so that also translates into are they carrying any trace
evidence on their little bodies? Any kind of blood, any
kind of hair, And you might think, wow, needle in
a haystack. You know, you're looking for a foreign hair
on a hairy animal. That has to be taken into consideration.
(35:01):
And another consideration is do any of the victims in
the house have trace elements of fiber or hair from
the dog? Really important point here is there anybody else
out there that is being looked at as perpetrator have
hair in their home that may have remembered I talked
about Maccart's principle just a moment ago. Did they take
(35:23):
hair away from the scene because that's a big question, right,
why do you have hair in your domicile that very
well might be tied back to this horrendous scene. You
have to be able to explain that.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
And in the Pullman search warrant for bran Coberger's apartment,
they did find possible animal hair that we don't know
the results of the testing.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Yet though, other than to say that Brian Holberger did
not have an animal correct, but it could have been
from a previous.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
It could be. But they're going to study the morphology
of that hair. Want to say that in forensics, we
study all of the animal key. We'll break that hair down,
take a look at it, and then look at it
genetically as well.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Joseph hold that thought. You'll be right back with us.
We're talking true crime all the time. Colorado husband arrested
for his wife's homicide and more. Brian Coburger and the
Idaho College murders. Stay with us. We talked a little
(36:28):
bit earlier about the Long Island serial killer. Now we're
doing a deep dive into the Idaho college murders. Brian Coburger,
the accused of former PhD student, and you know, technically
it's been you know, much has been made about the
fact that he was potentially studying the crimes he's now
accused of. He's accused of murdering for Idaho college students
(36:49):
in the same house one night, major overkill, no obvious
connection to them other than he was a neighboring student
and might have had a fascination in allegedly allegedly allegedly
death sentenced trials starting in August, and Joseph has been
in it since day one. He has done the podcast,
he's doing the documentary, and where do we begin.
Speaker 5 (37:12):
I'd love to hear. You've been so helpful talking us
through the.
Speaker 4 (37:17):
For the microphone.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yes, no, we're both so eager.
Speaker 5 (37:20):
More Joseph, I wanted to get into a little bit
the coroner, what happens, what happened with the corner. What
do people need to know about that process, either in
general and then specifically in this case.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Kind of let me break it down to you how
the corner works, because that's where I dance, where my
career was. So when the police roll out on a
scene they have a death, that's at you know, wherever
it is. After they secure the scene, the corner or
the medical legal representative. Some states don't have corners, have
medical examiners. We can do an entire show on that
at one point, Tom, but the reality is this, they
(37:59):
will summon the corner to the scene. Now the corner
is not there just as a livery service for the dead.
They're there to do an assessment on the scene to
give you an idea as to the status of the
body before the body is ever removed, because there's certain
things that have to be gleaned at the scene relative
to the body that you can't wait until you get
(38:20):
to the morgu to examine or to pick up data
to retrieve. And that's postmortem interval. It's the biggest thing.
So we're talking about the level of rigidity or ryger mortis,
post mortem lividity, the settling of blood, is it fixed
or is it still what we refer to is blanchable.
And third is going to be what's referred to as
(38:44):
algor mortis, which is body temperature. And just so that
you understand, and I'm going to put this in a
framework so that everyone can kind of see where I'm
going with this. For the first hour, for the first
hour after death, you lose one to two degrees of
your body temp. Okay, So we're at ninety eight point six.
(39:07):
For every hour after death, you lose an additional one
degree and this is in fahrenheit, okay, till the twelfth hour.
Then it's a twelfth hour, our bodies assume room temperature.
So it's the job of the corner at the scene
to assess every one of those bodies and get an
(39:28):
idea for that framework. And that's key in this case
because if we are just to go along with a
narrative that we've heard about, okay, and we think about, well,
Xanna got her food delivery just after four okay, and
then we know allegedly that you know, this may people
(39:49):
are saying that it happened towards the bottom of the hour,
from maybe four fifteen. You know, in that timeframe. If
you go with that idea, they've been deceased for that
period of time. This call doesn't normal. This call doesn't
come in until about eleven. Well, the police roll up.
How long did it take the corner to finally get
out there where she's going to do the examination. If
(40:12):
you're talking about body temperature, that data is blown to
hell at that point in time.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
And this was a complicated case. Yeah, it just was
hours before any activity happened. Right, So if the murders
occurred in the wee hours at around four am, real,
the authorities didn't get there until closer to noon, highly
you know, contemplated. But that's a big difference.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Yeah, it is. And this is this is the cold
time of year. So let's just say you've got a
body that's laying next to event for and you've got
central heat on. Well, the body's not going to cool
at the same rate, all right, because it's being exposed
to this heat. That's a big question. People always call
alcim mortis postpartum cooling. That's not accurate. All bodies cool
(41:01):
after death, well the majority of them do, but not
all of them do. Depend upon environmental conditions because not
only does the temperature on a body have to be measured,
you have to measure the ambient environmental temperature in order
to establish a baseline mathematically, and that has to be done.
And then I haven't even touched on the rigidity of
(41:22):
the body because that can be marked by time. You know,
it starts in the small muscles. Well they say it
starts everywhere, but it's first appreciating small muscles of the
face extends outward. The large muscle groups are the first ones,
are the last ones you can really appreciate it, like
if you're going to the hips to you know, check
the knees, the hips for flexation. And then post warm
(41:45):
avidity settling a blood, which is actually my favorite because
it's only impacted by gravity. So if a body has
been moved, I can tell you if that body has
been moved simply by the deposition of formal avidity. So
all of that stuff has to be assessed.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Can I tell you just a little insider. When Joseph
and I were on the phone when these murders tragically
first happened, we were blown away and were glued to
the phone, glued to the TV. And I want to
go on record as saying I think Joseph Scott Morgan
ahead of anybody. It had been reported about days after
(42:24):
Joseph Scott Morgan identified that there had been a sheath.
I didn't even know what that was.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
I talked to him too about that anactly. I was
live on TikTok and I was talking about how, of
course there's a sheath. This was before Brian Coberger was arrested,
and it was because Joseph's got Morgan and I think
it's important to talk about that.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Let's discuss can I didn't even know what that was,
so tell us everything.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
Two days after the murder, there was a press conference
and at this press conference, the sheriff or whatever said
this was all done with the fixed blated weapon. And
Joseph brilliantly was like, there's a sheath and I'm like,
how do you know that? And He's like, how would
they know it was a fixed blade weapon? The autopsies
haven't even been done yet, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Like, oh my god, you're so smart. He said this
before it had been read.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
It has been where he made me look very smart.
Let me just tell you that.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
And by the way, if you're just listening right now,
you pull off a sheath, it's like the kind of
the covering of this blade. You know you've seen Rambo.
You take it in and out of your like, uh,
your holster. Again, I don't have a great knife knowledge,
but Joseph has explained this to me. So the scariest
image was Joseph describing what could have happened in the
(43:37):
days weeks leading up to the murders is that whoever
had this knife and said sheath was likely practicing in
the mirror, kind of taking the knife out of the holster,
in the beckett, out of the holster, and then back
in practicing it. Because under the snap of this sheath,
which is like the cover to this knife, that's where
(43:57):
the DNA droplet was found, and it would imply that
their finger was on it. I think Dexter thinks scary
people practicing horrifying. It's a horrifying image.
Speaker 5 (44:08):
It is a horrifying images, right, Speaking of the knife,
what do people need to know about the wounds? Because
a lot was made of that. Yeah, is there anything
you think people need to know?
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Yeah? I think so. There's two types of wounds that
have been alluded to, and it's classic forensic pathology some
things we study. So you've got what are referred to
as in sized wounds, which if you think about I
think it was shakespeare Death bout thousand cuts, right, cuts
are in sized wounds are shallow but long. Okay, So
(44:46):
if you think about slices, all right, I think that Xana,
the description that we have for her, you know, cut
down to the tendons on her hand. Then we have
stab wounds, okay, and stab wounds are deeper than long
and so you've got these two things that are going on.
So you have someone that is utilizing an edged weapon, uh,
(45:11):
that is driving that weapon into a body, bodies multiple
times according to what we've heard, and then the slashing,
and you know, there's these and I'm saying this not
to be crude or any way, but the interesting I'm
interested compelled if you will scientifically virtue the way they're
(45:34):
describing Ethan's injuries. There was alluded to an injury on
the neck at one point time. And then you've got
this bizarre term they're using right now, carving, which I
don't really understand what that means. I know what carving is, obviously,
but I and so you've got.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
What does that mean?
Speaker 3 (45:53):
It sounds yeah, I mean carving, carving to a lot
of people, I think, just everyday folks, you know, And
I'm an everyday person, Yeah, thinking about carving, you know,
I'm thinking about woodworking, all kinds of things that are
out there. So you know, you can leave a word
behind I listen, not to go too far field, but
we've been covering the case out of Atlanta for a
(46:15):
long time. This lady that was walking her dog and
she was found in Piedmont Park and she had the
word fat carved into her stomach and her dog was
also killed a pit bull. Horrendous case, by the way,
that case is still open, unsolved.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
And where was this, Yeah, Atlanta?
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Yeah, and actually.
Speaker 4 (46:37):
Is writing that down there?
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, writing that down bow and yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
A chilling case. Chilling case absolutely yeah. So yeah, So
I think that from the perspective of injuries, Uh, that's
one of the things that the pathologist is going to
They're they're going to go into great detail. You're going
to hear so much in this trial about edge weapon
and about the nature of them and what can you
learn And one of the things that I have learned
(47:06):
working cases involving multiple stab wounds, you're going to have
you might even hear them say that they can't delineate
between two separate wounds because they're cross communicating. So if
you have this motion, you know, you guys had mentioned overkill,
which you get classically, and you can see where it's
not a reinsertion into a wound, but it's almost like
(47:30):
a good an you can't tell where one ends and
one begins. It gets rather complex.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
And by the way, what a hideous mode to use, right,
Like it wasn't like he not that shooting somebody with
a gun is easier, but this is a rainbow knife,
very close contact.
Speaker 4 (47:47):
It's also worth noting that in the PCA, the wounds
are described to us or whatever. In the Blaker PA,
it's noted that Ethan's wounds were described from the Spokane
Medical Examiner and not the corner. And I think that
might also contribute to like some of the difference, because
you know, there's going to be different terminology between a
(48:08):
corner and a medical examiner, and I think that's important
to note. I want to talk about the Zillo and
like the house mock up, right that all the photos
of basically the layout of the house are on Zillo
or a site like that. What's the significance of the
closet door as.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Joseph for me? And this is before they captured anybody,
all right, I had an idea in my mind that
first off, I think that this was sexual related, even
if there's no sexual assault, just the use of a
knife is the knife for many people who represents a
(48:47):
fallast and so they repeated over and over thing going on.
You've got these two beautiful young women that they thought
were the targets that that was coming out in the beginning.
And I thought that, and plus we kept hearing about
how unsecure this apartment was or home, everybody music downstairs,
(49:09):
keypad code, and then the sliders were habitually left unsecured.
I thought that if this was a predator, they would
have gone into the closets. We referred to them as
panty sniffers. That's why they kind of start off and
they watch from inside of closet. But you have to
have a secured and I was thinking deposition of DNA,
maybe visitations multiple times. I talked about this several years ago.
(49:32):
Then I saw the Zillow images and there's no doors
on the closet.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
None of them.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
And that was a big Yeah. That was a big
queue to me, Uh, you know relative to you know, well,
where doors ever there? Or is this something that had
previously been moved? Were doors up something?
Speaker 4 (49:51):
You would have known this because they made tiktoks and
instagram posts of from inside the home in all the
different rooms too, right, it would have been able to
stake this house out from his from his own living room. Right,
you don't have Yeah, yeah, what is.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
The significant If you ever want an advertisement for what
not to do with your social media, don't show the
inside of your home. That TikTok with those young ladies
has stuck with me over all of these years because
not only if you watch this thing, they pan around
that entire second floor, you can see the layout. All
(50:26):
you got to slow this thing down if you if
you capture this thing, and then they're portraying each other's personalities.
This is not about victim blaming here. This is just
about what the individual could have seen inside. It's like reconnaissance.
Without doing reconnaissance, it's a heavy it's an easy lift
for somebody that's interested in.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
You and stranger danger. Right, we know about that, Oh,
don't let the weirdo follow you home at night. But
in reality, what we don't all realize, and God knows
I do this and this particular case has like stopped me.
But you know, on social media, we all show like, oh,
photos at Thanksgiving, and what you don't realize is that
you're giving a full blueprint of your home. You're showing doors,
(51:11):
you're showing windows, you're showing the identifying you know, spots
in the in the front yard, et cetera. And if
you're you know, dealing with somebody who's emotionally not well
or psychologically twisted, who just takes a fascination with you online,
look suddenly you're down the rabbit hole and you're examining
that house to understand better entrances and exits. And in
(51:36):
Idaho specifically, they all lived off campus, and you know,
it's a party house that was supposed to be a
party house. That's what they were doing. They were all graduating,
or some of them were, and this was a house
that was like frequented for fun and no shame in
that game. Other than now retrospectively, we know that they
were really active on social media, the victims. So if
(51:57):
you're a weirdo watching somebody from the outside side of
a house looking in, you may develop a relationship with
someone online that has no idea who you are. Scary,
it's a scariest It is scary, next level to the
Halloween movies because if he's if he's noticing there's no
doors on these closets, he knows that he can't sneak
(52:17):
in the house while they're at the football game, right,
the Vandals football game, partying and having a good time.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
And wait for them to come home. Yes, you're not
going to be able to hide.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Wait, is that why you're saying the doors? I don't.
I'm not totally tracking, forgive me, because that's why I'm saying.
And I thought, what's what what's the significance of their
not being doors on the closets and.
Speaker 4 (52:37):
That he can't hide in the house basically and in
one of their bedrooms right Scarier I'm guessing.
Speaker 3 (52:46):
Yeah, that was early on, because you know who doesn't
have doors on their closet. And when I finally saw
the photos of it, I had to discount the idea
that he had been hiding out and watching, you know,
because if let's just say, you go up there at
a party and this is not just me saying this,
people have said it for a long time now, and
(53:06):
you make your way through the house at one of
these parties that's going on, and you kind of hang
back and you wait, and you go into closet, you
hang out in there, you act out fantasies, all these
sorts of things. It struck me as potential for this
because look, who whoever went into the now torn down
home they had I think that they had reconned it
(53:28):
in some way, that the structure of the thing is insane.
You'd have to be familiar with it. And one more thing,
you could be in the middle of the night with
the lights on that house up the hill and see
everything that's going on through the windows.
Speaker 4 (53:42):
Oh boy, that's a really good point. And that's probably
I think what he did.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Not back to this list against only get so much.
I literally can't my brain from all of the sad.
But I'm so curious too, So take it away, body,
because somewhat more, there's.
Speaker 4 (54:00):
Google searches that he did as well. There's Google searches,
and again that's I just kind of want to go
through a couple of them very quickly, just in case
you're just joining us, can you tell us a little bit? Okay,
so long il well sorry. LISK stands for Long Island
serial Killer and the accused is Rex Hureman. He's a
fifty nine year old architect from New York, Long Island.
(54:23):
He's been alleged to have been involved in seven murders.
There's eleven in total. He's linked to two more so
potentially nine and the other two he's not linked to yet,
And there's been basically digital forensics done on his computer
to retrieve Google searches. And that's kind of what I'm
(54:44):
talking about right now, is some of the thats Google search.
Speaker 5 (54:45):
Body, I have a feeling I know exactly where you're going,
And I just wanted to say, this is a trigger warning. Yes,
So yeah, we're about to discuss some disturbing specifics in
the Rex Hureman case. Some are violence, sexual nature. So yeah,
the listener discretion is strongly advised.
Speaker 6 (55:03):
No children.
Speaker 4 (55:04):
Yeah, and I'm not going to I'm not gonna talk
about some of the more graphic and insulting ones. I
guess they're all pretty insulting. But some of the things
are wooden pony porn. Is that I don't know?
Speaker 2 (55:20):
Wooden pony porn?
Speaker 4 (55:22):
Girl, I am like a nun.
Speaker 2 (55:25):
Vanilla? How have we been talking about Diddy for weeks now?
How how could we be this vanilla? What is? If
anybody knows the answer to this, you could leave us
a message. Uh eight eight eighty three one crime so
wooden pony porn.
Speaker 4 (55:40):
Yeah, Another one is gold. I can't say some of
these are really Bad Long Island Mistress b DSM, which
is interesting because he mentions the hard point in that
the checklist that we went over. The hard points are
often associated with the b DSM lifestyle, which is completely
normal and nothing. There's no shame in that. But it's
(56:03):
just a stand for bondage. Bondage.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
I don't know, it's it's something with like, yeah, it's
a little bit like what is the movie uh with
the bonded Uh. I have no idea was based in
the book.
Speaker 6 (56:16):
Oh are you talking about that? Every woman?
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (56:20):
Fifty shades of gray? Fifty shades of gray? Wasn't that
a smidge of that? Oh my god, this is so
painful that I'm saying this out left.
Speaker 6 (56:27):
Yeah. Yeah, but you're exactly right, Stephanie. That is that
is what.
Speaker 2 (56:31):
Mom closed your ears.
Speaker 4 (56:32):
Yeah, this is all just very This is all just
very interesting.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
That Johnson taught me it. But we have a.
Speaker 4 (56:37):
Caller, Stephanie, and I would really like to hear what
Stephanie has to say and whatnot.
Speaker 7 (56:43):
Hey, Hi, Stephanie, I want to Hi.
Speaker 8 (56:47):
I would like to circle back to the house.
Speaker 7 (56:51):
I came into listening to the Idaho for Case through
you and some other people and I still have our
time understanding really the reasoning that the house was tore down,
And I just wondered if you guys knew of any
other cases where something had.
Speaker 8 (57:11):
Happened in a house they tore it down, or that
there was the contrary a benefit to keeping it where
people could the jury could go in and actually observe firsthand.
I really am torn on that. I think that they
should have kept the house up, and I just want
to know your guys's opinions on that.
Speaker 4 (57:30):
You're definitely You're definitely not alone in that feeling. A
lot of people are, you know, really actually very upset
that the house is taken down. I my own personal
viewpoint on that is that I don't think a jury
would have ever been allowed in that house. We've gotten
pictures of some of the inside of the house from
the faral target scan that was done. We were able
(57:51):
to see in some of the rooms and walls and
floors have been removed from the home. I don't know
that a judge would have allowed a jury to go
in there. Additionally, since it's been moved now, I know
the house was torn down before the trial got moved,
but it's hours and hours and hours away, and everybody
always references myrdal. Well, they took murd all to the
(58:11):
crime scene. Yeah, it was outside true.
Speaker 2 (58:13):
And the piked and massacre. We also took jurors to
that site, although the locations had since been removed. Again,
I'm just gonna quote Joseph Scott Morgan while he stares
at us. Yeah, and just he's gonna test me. He
wants the house up. He's gonna test me on what
I've learned just by his presence. But Stephanie, you and
I are thinking exactly the same. The truth is we
(58:34):
don't know, and therefore shouldn't we not know until after
the trial? Like who knows? We all could be right
and we all could be wrong, But maybe just a
couple more months and we can then destroy the house
because who knows what evidence that what maybe proves him
innocent or maybe proves him guilty.
Speaker 4 (58:55):
No, And I think that's a really interesting point and
it's very fair. But stick around next because we're gonna
be fill on on a mom who vanished without a trace.
In years later, her husband is charged with murder, And
don't forget to call us at eight thirty one crime
with your thoughts on any of Tonight's stories, keep it
regular true crime.
Speaker 2 (59:11):
Tonight, we're talking about the Long Island serial killer right now,
Rex Humor Men, who has been accused of being linked
to seven women on Long Island. There are eleven that
(59:31):
have been identified so far. It's very possible that he'll
be linked to more, allegedly allegedly allegedly, but this is
a very specific case because this was a regular man
who commuted to New York City every day and then
out of that no more, which is a little similar
to Brian Coburger in the Idaho college murders. Because similarly,
(59:52):
this is again a really like upwardly mobile guy, educated,
living a good life. Why would he possibly commit a
CROs I'm for college students so quickly. Why would anybody
do that? It doesn't make any sense. So Courtney, I
just see you raising your hand right now. Did you
have a question for the room?
Speaker 6 (01:00:09):
Yeah, well kind of. I was just gonna say.
Speaker 5 (01:00:11):
I know, we've already started plotting research, so we are
going to be getting into all of that this week,
so stay tuned for all of the details. But I
think right now, I'm so excited, That's why I had
to raise my hand there is the case of the
mother who vanished on Mother's Day. Her husband has just
been charged with her murder body. What do we need
(01:00:34):
to know about it?
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
So much?
Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
There is a lot to go over with the Morphew case.
And while we have Joseph here though, we're kind of
here's the thing. This case is going to be big.
It already is kind of big, but it's going to
be big, and we're going to be deep diving this
in the coming weeks, I would say, probably coming weeks.
And while Joseph is here though, I kind of want
to skip ahead a little bit because I want to
(01:00:59):
get into the front while we have him. But I
want to give everybody listening a little bit of background first.
So Barry Morphew was indicted on Friday this Friday, June
twentieth by a grand jury for allegedly killing his wife,
who disappeared on Mother's Day in twenty twenty, Suzanne, forty nine.
She went reported missing from her home with him in Molfat,
(01:01:21):
Colorado after she went for a bike ride and she
never came back. Her body was never found. Okay, well,
a year later on in twenty twenty one, like almost
I think exactly a year later, Barry Morphew was arrested.
So four years ago he was arrested and charged with
the murder. Prosecutors alleged that Barry was responsible for her death,
(01:01:41):
citing evidence such as a trail of suspicious texts, weird
behavior and all this like crazy behavior after she disappeared.
They suggested that the motive for the crime would be
related to susan want to divorce or leave him. Okay, Well,
in April of twenty twenty two, a year after that,
after a really long investigation and legal proceedings, prosecutors recommended
(01:02:02):
that they drop charges because they couldn't prove it and
they knew and they wanted it. They wanted it dismissed
with prejudice or without prejudice so that they could recharge
them again, and they got that was successful, so he
was arrested. Well, I guess three years have gone by now, right, Joseph.
Three years have gone by and he got re arrested.
So I just kind of want to jump right in
(01:02:24):
to what the indictment says, because the indictment gives us
a really good insight into some of the forensics in
this case, which are going to be huge okay, and
I'm going to read before we get to Joseph. I
want to read the part that I think is the
most alarming in the indictment. Okay, A board certified forensics
I'm sorry, A board certified forensic anthropologist, a botanist, and
(01:02:48):
an entomologist all analyzed the remains and several observations were noted.
There was a distinct lack of bug activity, which was
inconsistent with the remains having decomposed at that location. The
clothing items lacked evidence of dcomp which was also inconsistent
with Suzanne Morphew wearing the bike clothes at the time
(01:03:09):
her body decomposed. Additionally, there was a lack of animal
predication on the bones, there was a very small amount
of soft tissue found on the bones, and there was
no hair mass located. All of these features would have
been expected if this had been her original grave site
where the decomp occurred. A forensic anthropologist opined that based
(01:03:33):
on these factors, it was unlikely that Suzanne decomposed from
a fresh body to a skeleton at this location. So
the implications of this where she was put somewhere where
she experienced dcomp and then redressed right.
Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
Wait, because dressed like clothes put back on is what
that means, because it.
Speaker 4 (01:03:53):
Says the body, it says the indictment. The clothing items
lacked evidence of dcomp wait her dead.
Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
This is very graphic. Heard, I'm sorry her decompose her
body now no longer living, her dead body. Whoever did this,
allegedly her husband, he like got her dressed again and
then put her someplace else.
Speaker 4 (01:04:13):
He had to put her in my mother's day.
Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
They have two beautiful children together who have stood by
him as his daughters.
Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
He has two daughters, are crazy and there they were
seventeen and nineteen at the time of good death, and
I think they're like twenty four and twenty two.
Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
Now twenty two. I believe. I'll do a fact check,
but that's my understanding as well.
Speaker 4 (01:04:35):
And they have stayed by his side. They have stayed
by his side.
Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
They miss their mom deeply. I imagine of Joseph.
Speaker 4 (01:04:42):
So, Joseph, what stands out to you and all this, Joseph,
what is the in what I just read from the indictment?
What stands out to you?
Speaker 3 (01:04:50):
Well? I think now this new information, you know, have
been covering the same since twenty I said, saying in
this case since twenty twenty, I think is when it
first popped and was just knee deep in it. The
first time I had heard this is the first time
I've heard about the idea that she may have been
(01:05:10):
redeposited somewhere her remains had been. And this is chilling
because whoever perpetrated this death and if we were to
believe what the entomologists and the anthropologist are saying, she
would have had to have been removed from the initial
location and still protective against animal predation, because one of
(01:05:33):
the things that you're looking for after death was skal
for remains. Is you have this, and forgive me because
this is rathographic, but you actually have gnawing on bones,
and you'd be surprised what animals out there do this.
It's not big animals. We're talking about raccoons, possums, these
sorts of things. So that means that someone put a
(01:05:56):
lot of thought into this and removed her remains to
another location, which is incredible.
Speaker 4 (01:06:03):
What kind of area can protect the human body from
animal preantation?
Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
Like what kind of field area? A field area of
some kind. Yeah, and I don't know where that might
have been, and for me, it's it's mind boggling. I
don't know. I've had bodies that have been replaced in
locations or have been placed in other locations after having
(01:06:29):
been killed, but to this extent and particularly the redressing,
is something that's very interesting to me because it's it's
so over the top.
Speaker 4 (01:06:39):
It is.
Speaker 5 (01:06:40):
Yeah, how common is it for the redressing and what
is the purpose? Is that something sort of ritualistic or
trying to not frame.
Speaker 3 (01:06:49):
Yourself with Yeah, yeah, actually with redressing. That's that's a
term that we generally utilized when we're talking about serial events,
and that goes into theopathy of individuals that like to
dress bodies and do all that sort of thing. Yeah,
and uh, you know, when you hear this is an
(01:07:09):
example somebody that's going to go to great links in
order to kind of cover their their tracks here because
remember the one that one thing about this is she
went out for a bike ride. She went out for
a bike ride. The bike is found off the side
of the road. There's no blood trails, you know, all
nothing ever really married up with a narrative we were
(01:07:33):
we were hearing and now they're talking about redressing a body.
This is this is super bizarre man.
Speaker 4 (01:07:40):
They also talked about her her bones had been bleached.
Now it's important to know that Barry Morphew, he has
like a deer farm at one point in Indiana, I think.
And at this deer farm he would shoot a tranquilizer
and it's full of this material called bam okay, and
it's like a tranquilizer that and then he would cut
(01:08:02):
the antlers off the deer, which by the way, is illegal.
And he so they found in the autops her bones
had been bleached. And I'm wondering, and they found this bam,
this chemical, this drug in her bone marrow was Do
you think he was trying to like hide that specific peace, Joseph.
(01:08:23):
Do you think that's why he's doing the bleaching.
Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
I think I think that we need to be very well,
we need to see we need to be very careful
when they're saying bleaching. Okay, yeah, what do you mean
for most of us, you know, we're thinking about taking
chlorox and writing something. Bones. This is a very even
though it's Colorado in a beautiful area of state, by
the way, but very isolated. It's arid there. So if
(01:08:46):
you take remains and lay them out in this environment,
they will be bleached by the sun.
Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
Oh cool.
Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
Well, so I think that that's one of the things. Now,
I'm not saying that they don't have evidence that some
form of bleach was used, but I think that we
need to be real.
Speaker 4 (01:09:04):
The hotel smelled the bleach, right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
Yeah, the hotel there was this incident that had occurred.
There's been bleached there, but that was right after she
had gone missing. So how are you going to get
the bones to bleach at that point in time or
affect them with bleach?
Speaker 6 (01:09:23):
All right, man, I'm actually I'm new to this case.
Speaker 5 (01:09:25):
What if you can we don't have much time, But
what's the importance of the hotel.
Speaker 4 (01:09:29):
He was staying he when she went missing, he was
out of town, working on like a project outside of town,
and he was staying at a hotel allegedly.
Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Allegedly, that's why Alibi said, which is why he was
I think released. Jump in. If anybody disagrees, call us.
But like I think he was dismissed soon after the
murders happened. This is the husband Barry because like all
of his stuff checked out and it didn't totally add up.
They didn't have enough evidence now years later, even after
(01:09:59):
just if you called it body, You've been following this
for years and years too. He's been brought in claims.
My friend Linda brought it to my attention. Yeah, because
I remember major This is a major case, but also
a major case of a like enormy a regular person
who's living a full, happy life, who does hideous things.
(01:10:20):
Imagine leaving your wife in the sun to be bleached
by the sun.
Speaker 4 (01:10:25):
I alleged to ask, I need to ask about the
distinct lack of insects at the at the location. What
does that tell you, Joseph, like, talk to me about in.
Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
One of the no one of them. Is a great
question because one of the things that we always see
at a crime scene where we have a decomposing body
are maggot husk, and there's these hard little shells they
shild as they're going through their life cycle. According to
what we're hearing, that's completely absent there. Wow, you generally
see them scattered about. You'll see multiple Listen, folks, understand this.
(01:11:00):
You'll see multiple generations of these husks because flies are
multi generational. They come, they go, they come, and according
to what the entomologists to say, and there's no evidence
of that. And that's that's what's so very striking about
this again. That goes to this larger idea that perhaps
she was deposited here after having been somewhere else.
Speaker 4 (01:11:24):
Well, and there was no mass of hair either, which
is interesting. They said there was no hair mass located.
Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
What does that mean? I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
Well, deepening upon where they were. You know, I've actually
had cases where I've had skeletonal skeletal remains before, where
we have found bird nests that are made out of
human hair because they'll collect the birds will come and
collect hair. So I wonder, I really wonder if there's
an initial location where she was, where you may have
(01:11:55):
had this curve where you had evidence of insect activity
and also this av thing where they may have come
in taken hair away.
Speaker 4 (01:12:04):
She might have been exposed to the elements, especially if
her bones were like sun bleached, right, she could have
just been exposed to the elements out there. Oh, poor Susan.
Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
Poor Susan didn't know about the status of those clothing
would very very interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
Yeah, I wonder what the thing was that decided for investigators,
like what was the missing piece that tipped over her
body obviously, but like they suddenly were like, this is
the guy, we got him? Were they doing it her body?
Speaker 4 (01:12:35):
And then when they did the bone marrow testing and
found that band chemical and realized he used it at
the deer farm, that was it.
Speaker 6 (01:12:40):
I think that we.
Speaker 4 (01:12:41):
Didn't they know that last time he didn't.
Speaker 5 (01:12:44):
Have a body, and it's really really hard to go
to trial without a body. Of course gets done, but well,
I think Sundays with Joseph for maybe my favorite.
Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
Yeah, I know, it's like it's not exactly Tuesdays with Maury,
it's basically Sundays with Joseph. Different twist, definitely a different twist,
but we are learning a lot about life and big
ticket items. And honestly, Joseph, the thing that is so
exciting about you when we say this about you behind
your back all the time, is that you make very
(01:13:17):
scary information, which is important for us to note to
organize these kinds of cases in our heads. I think
it brings us weird comfort to better understand them. And
you have a way of describing these very gory details
in a way that's not comforting. Isn't the right word,
but I guess palpable and it makes us feel like
safer in the world because of you.
Speaker 3 (01:13:39):
Well, it's a slight. My old friend Vinny Politan on
Core TV taught me many years ago at ah Lean.
I just have to teach, and that's that's what I
try to do anytime I join you guys. I love
to teach. People deserve to be taught. They deserve to
be educated. They all do. Everybody. Everybody deserves a shot
at that.
Speaker 2 (01:13:59):
We're talking True Time all the time. We will hear
from you tomorrow. Make sure you join us True Crime tonight.
Have a great evening.
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight. It is Sunday in June
twenty second, and we are here talking true crime all
the time. Listen. I know it feels like the world
has gone crazy, but we are settling in. Pull up
your proverbial chair. We are just hunkering down right now
and having a big conversation about all the things that
we can control, which is a conversation about forensics. We're
(00:40):
going to do a very big deep dive tonight. We
have a stacked night. We're going to be talking about Lisk,
the Long Island serial killer, and all of the scary
forensics that go with that, as well as the Idaho
College murders. Again, the forensics are a big piece of
this case, so we're going to unpack that further and
also the latest developments in the HS been in Colorado
(01:01):
after years, he's officially been arrested and charged with his
wife's murder. So so much to get to. I'm Stephanie
Leidecker and I head of Kat Studios where we make
true crime podcasts and documentaries, and I get to do
that with Courtney Armstrong, crime producer and host and crime
analyst and host Body Move In. And tonight we are
(01:21):
doing an extra extra special thing because we have our
very own forensics expert, Joseph Scott Morgan here with us tonight.
He was here with us last Sunday, and now he's
back for the second Sunday, which means there is nothing
but trouble ahead and he's going to really do a
deep dive with us. If you don't know Joseph's work,
you for sure will recognize his face. He's been on
every news show you could possibly imagine. I think he's
(01:44):
done over two hundred and fifty appearances this year alone
on the news every major outlet. Also, he's appeared on
all of our documentaries Murdered and Missing in Montana, the
Pie County Murders. He'll also be a big contributor in
the Idaho College Murders that is coming out soon, also
to be seen on Peacock. And he's also been in
(02:04):
all of our podcasts, The Piked and Massacre, The Idaho Massacre.
He's also the host of Body Bags a podcast we
don't make, but we wish we did. We're about to
dig in to all things forensics. So Joseph, after the
longest introduction ever, we're so happy you're here and can't
wait to dig in further.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Yeah, I'm good to be with you, guys. I'm exhausted
after all of that. Veron is a.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Lot, right, So just what is at the stage? Setting
the stage? And I know we're going to do a
deep dive into the Long Island serial killer and the
forensics there are really important because again, this is a case.
I'm from Long Island originally, this is a case. It's
very close to my heart and we've all been following
it so closely. And really you're the guy and body
(02:46):
if you wouldn't mind just like filling us in a
little bit, give us the backstory.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
Just a very quick trigger warning. We're about to discuss
some very very disturbing specifics in this case, some violent
in of a sexual nature. So listener discretion is strongly advised,
very quick. I mean, this is very horrific stuff. So
a Microsoft word document with eighty seven disturbing details has
(03:11):
come to light, and you know it's shedding a lot
more insight into LISK and everything that he did. He
was very organized. He had plans for how to murder,
including like supplies such as like cat litter and tarps,
dump sites, location recon reports, what to do with specific
body parts, and prep. Rex Huerman is our suspect. He's
(03:34):
going to be turning sixty years old next month. He
was arrested on July thirteenth of twenty twenty three on
suspicion of being the Long Island serial Killer. And you'll
we refer to that as LISC LSK because Long Island
Serial Killer is kind of hard to say. So LISK
case involved eleven bodies found in the Gilgo Beach area
(03:55):
from nineteen ninety three to twenty eleven. Rex has been
linked to seven of those murders forensically and alleged to
be involved with two others. He's not yet linked to
the remaining two murders. So there's a lot of bodies,
there's a lot of victims, and this list, this.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
List, that list, just to add to that. You know,
we've had guests on before who have said, listen, there's
this core group that you know he's been associated with,
but it could be many many many anymore, And just
to give a little context to this particular place, this
isn't a really beautiful place on Long Island. Again I'm partial,
I'm from there, but it's about an hour outside of
(04:34):
New York City and it's suburbia. But it's also on
a bay obviously, it's called you know, Oyster Bay Massapequa.
This is a really lovely, peaceful, special place that you know,
everybody knows their neighbors. People are kind and considerate. It's
so close to New York City, but at the same
time it's a small town. So for something this wild
(04:56):
to have occurred is pretty unimaginable. And I can say
for myself grow up and even my older brothers, this
is something that wrecked Long Island for many, many, many
many years. It was unsolved. It really went unnoticed. On
top of that, and we can get into that later.
But honestly, this was a very surprise ending. This particular
architect from New York City Rex Humor in the accused,
(05:18):
he claims his innocence. He's a married man, has two kids,
and was commuting into New York City on the train
every day. The way we all did, myself included with
his daughter to his fancy architect job. So for him
to be the guy that's been you know, said to
be the Long Island serial killer, it's really unexpected. So
(05:40):
just a stage setter.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
No, that's really good background in for it to have.
So this hard drive recovered from Hureman's basement has this
word document and the document is called HK two thousand
and two DASH four. Don't really know what that means yet.
Some people are speculating that it means highway killer, but
again that's literally speculation. Nobody knows what it means. It
(06:03):
appears to be like a planning document, like a checklist
of sorts, right, and there's like columns and like little
line items, and it looks like they're connected to everything
that you have to do in order to be successful
at hiding you know, this crime, planning this crime and whatnot.
(06:23):
And it's hard to go into all the details because
it's so gruesome. But just as an example, I'm just
going to do a very quick example problems. There's a
heading is called problems. The problems are fingerprints, witnesses, shoe prints,
police stops, hair and fiber. So he's recognizing things that
(06:44):
can happen, right, like issues that you might run into.
Another column is called supplies, and here's some supplies booties,
lie and acid, a police scanner, hairnets, a burn can,
medical gloves, argo strap. And then there's one that is
called pre prep, get a vehicle inspection, check the weather.
(07:08):
I mean, he's wait system list of as soon to
be serial killer who is putting into plan, the greatest
list in his mind, the sickest list in hours in
history of just how to stay organized when deciding to
murder again and again.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
And by the way, it's alleged that this man again
he says, he's you know, innocent, so we are not
claiming guilt, but he may have been. If what we
are hearing is accurate and true. Allegedly, he will have
been killing before he got married. So this is something
that would potentially have been going on for years and
years and years, and you know, remains technically unsolved.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
So, Joseph, two questions for you just getting into this list. One,
what if any items particularly stick out to you? And
two would you say that this potentially categorizes Humorman who
is alleged but as an organized killer versus a disorganized killer.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Well, let's say the first one for me, this seems
very passive. Okay, but if you go to the list
that he is alleged to have created in this word
document that that body had referenced, there's the header themes
to remember. And for me, one of the things that
(08:31):
really kind of pops on here is get sleep before
hunt too tired, and he misspells creates, He spells at
C R E A T S problems and then he
references sleep again where he talks about more sleep, and
interestingly enough, noise control equals are you ready for this
(08:54):
more playtime? And I use the term.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
With a victim.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
I don't know. Yeah, either that or he's referencing how
he will be prepared for more playtime. I don't know, really,
you know how you kind of suss that out? And
that's to me. You're in this real granular area, you know,
when you begin to think about these things. Interestingly enough,
(09:21):
I'll kind of add this on as a side. You know,
he he had read, like many of us did. He
had read Douglas's book. I think that came out back
in ninety six, the mind Hunter book, which of course
the Netflix series is loosely based upon, and in there
John kind of details out, you know, these killers and
the genesis of the behavioral science unit. But in there
(09:43):
he talks about organized versus disorganized, and organized versus disorganized
is not something that you can look at with killers
and say this is absolutely an organized person. This is
a disorganized because there's shades of gray in here. If
you're asking me, if if I were just to look
at the list alone, I would say that this is
(10:04):
a mind that is solely focused on the task at
hand from a forensic standpoint, because he even goes so
far as to talk about removal of marks of torture,
which if you've got bindings, for instance, and you're going
to have kind of some people refer to it as
a rub rash, but it's actually an abrasion that goes
(10:26):
around the risk from restraint, you have to get rid
of that. Well, how do you get rid of that? Well,
you go back to the burn can and you talk
about he well allegedly talks about the disposal of remains,
and here as well, he even goes down And this
is quite interesting because I talk about this all the
(10:46):
time when I'm talking about forensic autopsis and sexual assault cases.
He actually talks about two big pieces here clipping of
the nails or getting rid of evidence that might be
beneath the nails, if you're talking about some might offend
in themselves. And then in addition to that, this is
hard to say, he talks about cleaning orifices.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Yeah, the entire all cavities.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Right, yeah, yeah, and that's a flushing that goes on.
And why would he do that, Well, he's trying to
get rid of any kind of seminal deposition that might
be there if he completes sexual act within the victim,
and also anything that goes on with any kind of
blood deposition on his part.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
We will be back with many more investigative information bites
for you.
Speaker 6 (11:35):
Joseph Scott Morgan will be here.
Speaker 5 (11:37):
Hopefully you will as well if you give us a
call eight at eight three to one crime and we
have other cases to follow. Keep it here on True
Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
We have forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and he is
you know, Kat Family. You can catch him on all
of our podcasts and all of our documentaries quite literally,
also the host of Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.
You've had us a little slightly edge of our seats.
I literally lost what I was talking about because I
was listening to closely to the last track. Killer list. Yeah,
(12:19):
there's a list. So just to fill everybody in about
what we're talking about. Rex Hureorman is the accused Long
Island serial killer. He's currently behind bars awaiting trial. He's been,
you know, associated with seven of the eleven women who
have lost their lives tragically over the last you know,
decades on Long Island. And he was a married man.
(12:42):
He's divorced now, but his wife and his two children
loved him deeply and honestly, his arrest was a very
big deal because he was an architect from New York City.
A very unexpected ending here. So it turns out we're
learning that this alleged killer had a kill list basically
the types of things that you would put on your
(13:02):
laundry list or your grocery list, or your task list
for your errands on the weekend. This guy, the accused, allegedly, allegedly,
allegedly Rex Humor Man, had a really organized list about,
you know, how to murder people and to do it
efficiently and to get the most play out of it.
So again trigger alert, But Joseph, back to this list.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Yeah, back to this list. So I'm gonna jump in, Joseph,
I'm going to read some more from this list. So
some of the some of the bodies. So, Joseph, this
is why I'm so excited to talk to you. As
this body prep. So in this list, this a list
that's allegedly from Rex's computer. There's a column called body
prep and on there it says remove trace evidence, fingerprints, hair.
(13:50):
You know you would mention that, remove trace, DNA, remove
id mars ie, tattoos and marx.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
How do you remove them? What does that even mean?
Speaker 4 (14:00):
How do you think you had, like, say you had
a tattoo on your shoulder, you sure you would remove
the skin and that's where the burn can comes in.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Right, Yeah, So if I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
No, no, no, please, yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
If you're and this is a thought that I had
on this. If one were to remove a tattoo, that
would be a very specific dissection. We we've actually had
to do this in the more before to preserve things,
and there's a certain way that you treat that sample,
but not not for an individual that's trying to do
a removal of an identifying mark, and you would need
(14:42):
an instrument that would facilitate this a straight edge, you
would probably need pickups, which are for our fancy term
for for force ups, surgical scissors, and of course scalpel
unless you're going to be very very crude about it.
What's really interesting is that he's talking. And this goes
(15:04):
to a bigger point I think in this list is
mentioned lie and acid as well, which if you're going
to facilitate destruction of tissue like the soft tissue, you
can render it down. It springs me to another point
because if this individual or the individual that has been
(15:24):
committing these acts that there are other people that could
potentially victims that could be on his radar. The ones
that have been found are dumb luck because if he
took the time, or the individual that did these took
the time to hunt, and he makes reference to hunting.
If I stay in the area too long, I'll draw
attention hunting. That's a reference on the list. Then, if
(15:48):
he's taken out other people and he has the means
and the guts, the intestinal fortitude to do it, are
there other bodies that were completely rendered down and that
is possible to do it, you need time to do
it and dispose of them. And the first step on
this because of the vastness of the water, the water surface.
(16:09):
You've got the Atlantic Ocean on one side and then
you've got this marshy area on the other side. There's
things out there that will do the trick for you.
Just the crab population alone in that area will do
the job for you. I know that because I'm from
Louisiana and the job that they do on bodies and
this is really gruesome stuff, but it's the reality of
what you're seeing kind of born out here potentially.
Speaker 6 (16:31):
So two questions.
Speaker 5 (16:32):
One is ten crabs actually decompose or get rid of
an entire body.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
They ingest the body. Yeah, yeah, any crustacean like that. Yeah, Well,
in South Louisiana, for instance, crawfish are one of the biggest,
and then blue crabs down there up north you have crab,
you have lobster. So yeah, any numbers.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
So there's more things on this list. You guys like
this list. I mean, we could do a whole show
on just this list.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Because just so one last thing to throw in, just
in case you're not completely familiar with this case. We're
talking about the Long Island serial killer accused of killing
seven women, and there's potentially much many more to come.
But the allegation that we're really focusing on now is
that this man, this architect, lived in a neighborhood, in
this lovely, beautiful, frankly affluent neighborhood right on the water
(17:28):
and picturesque. It's like the kind of thing you like,
go to university, and like he was kind of a
boring guy, a really sleepy neighbor. Nobody trick or treated
at their house because on the block and maybe you've
seen this house, you know, I remember a house similar
to this when I was growing up. It was like
the one house you skipped. You didn't go to that
house on Halloween. It was just, you know, unlike the others,
(17:50):
it was mismatched, and really it seemed like nobody had
cared about it for a really long time, even the
fact that he was an architect and had a family there.
It just felt a little displaced. But that's not the point.
They allegedly in his basement he had a bit of
a vault, and what he's being accused of is that
there was a vault in this suburban home in the
basement that lacked any audios, So nobody could hear any
(18:14):
screams or cries while two children and your wife are upstairs,
and that allegedly some of the victims were being brought there,
lured there, and tortured for endless amounts of time, and
that there was this corresponding list, a kill list of
things to keep him organized, to put into place when
he had said woman trapped. And by the way, these
(18:35):
victims were loved and missed and really lovely young women
who had lives ahead, So you know, it's unparallel tragedy.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Yeah, now, certainly that's important to note. Thank you, Stephanie.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
I had a question and I don't know if anyone
has the answer to Stephanie. You just said untold amounts
of time. And interesting to note is that if the
facts that we know are true, that many of these
crimes did take place exactly actly when his wife was
out of town.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
So that's one thing.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
But on the list something that stuck out to me,
and this is under notes section, so it's not in
pre prep or dispose of, but one of the notes
is Stockholm syndrome, which to me would indicate that some
of these people were potentially were there for quite some time.
Does anyone. As have people been talking about that and
I missed it.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I've heard a bit about it, and I can speak
to it a little bit. You know, Stockholm syndrome. I'm
gonna just totally muck this up. I'm not a therapist,
but I think Stockholm syndrome is referencing a specific woman
who was held captive famously, and she with a gun
to her head famously like it like kind of embraced
(19:44):
in a way air quotes her captor, the person who
was going to kill her with a gun to her head.
She spoke to him emotionally. She's sort of tapped into
sort of his mental headspace, not because she was loving
him or liking him, but simply because he was the
greatest danger facing her. Allegedly, there were like you know,
(20:05):
bomb scare people outside and people that were going to
like talk this killer off the ledge, and this woman
knew enough to say, I'm going to look this man
in the eye with a gun to my head and
somehow relate to him as a human and ultimately that worked.
It got later kind of confused by like, oh, she
loved her captor, and that's not love. That was survival. Survival.
(20:28):
It was literally like risk management times of bajillion. So
Stockholm syndrome if that's on his list, is also extra psycho,
because that would imply a relationship between him as a
killer and his victim. And I can promise you these
women did not want to be there by any stretch
of the imagination. And we're petrified for the ead.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
I actually think that that could be his perception of it.
He's trying to superimpose perhaps the idea that of course
they're going to love me because I'm doing this with
them and for them, it doesn't matter how much I
terrorize them.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
Well, on his list is toys, get rid of toys,
like this was all play to him.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
This was all like, it's super fun for the woman
hanging by her neck from your ceiling, so fun, such play.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Speaking of one of the things on his checklists and
under things to remember is use heavy rope for neck
light rope broke under stress of being tightened. So he's
like making a mistake and he's learning from it, right,
and then he's correcting it until the next time.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Yeah, I mean this is going to need something that's
that's robust. Well, and he talks about the indication. Yeah,
he did. And of course, going back to the hard point,
if you just think about placing an eyebolt into a
beam overhead, that could be a hard point for him,
a place for suspension. But it's fascinating the light rope
(21:54):
thing versus the heavier rope, more robust rope. That means
that maybe there's spending variance there, that something occurred with
one of the preceding victims where they knew that he knew,
they knew that he needed something a bit more robust
that would handle.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Yeah, he's learning from all his mistakes. Another thing on
this list, he he has like some things and and
here's the thing we don't know what means, but there's
a post event destroy file. So he must have kept
a file for each victim. And I don't think they've
recovered those yet. They have, they haven't released them. Yeah,
chant yeah, photos photos. Yeah, we'll stick with us here.
(22:36):
We're going to be continuing this conversation with Joseph and
he's going to walk us through the potential vulnerabilities in
the Idaho crime scene. Stick with us right here for
true crime.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Tonight, we've been talking about very scary things regarding the
Long Island serial killer forensics. And now moving on to
yet another very scary case involving forensics, the Idaho college
(23:06):
murders accused Brian Coberger is looking to stand trial in August.
And again, if you're not familiar with this case, for
incredible students Kayleie Gonzalvez, Xana Cronodle, Madison Mogan, and Ethan
Chapin all lost their lives one night, same house, same university,
(23:26):
very very regular college night, and then suddenly they're all killed.
And the person who was arrested and is now about
to stand a death sentence trial was also a PhD
criminology student studying the actual acts that he's now accused
of from a neighboring school. So it's a very complicated case,
(23:48):
mostly because there doesn't appear to be a really good,
not good, it's not the right word, but a really
strong connection between the four victims and the accused killers.
So you know, that's kind of rare. Usually we see love, revenge, money,
there's usually some sort of a backstory, and this one
seems to have very little cross section, which frankly makes
(24:09):
it like every scary movie we've ever seen. And Joseph,
you've been at the forefront of this. You were on
the phone when these murders happened. I think you were
the first person I spoke to, and it seemed unimaginable.
And now with this trial approaching, the forensics are more
significant than ever, and we're so glad that you're here
to unpack them.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I'm glad to be here with you, guys. I guess
looking back in time, how many years has it been now?
Where it's been year?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah, Yeah. What shocked me initially was how long it
took to hook somebody up on charges. I really thought
a town that small, that they'd have the pricelets on
somebody really really quick. And of course I think we
had to wait a month and a half, you know,
before they were able to do that.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, and there was a man hunt, like a national manhunt.
We were all petch of fight and everybody in that small,
beautiful town imagine college students. It took a beautiful place, really,
all locking the doors and you know, bracing for it
because there was a killer at large, a dangerous killer
at large.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
So since we have Joseph here, let's like ask him
some crime scene questions. You guys, good with that? Yes, yes,
So Joseph. Let's let's talk about like the initial walkthrough
and investigation of the scene. What are some of the
things that a quadruple murder scene, especially in a small town,
would have, Like what are some of the things that
you would expect and you know, what would the first
(25:34):
responders have seen and done?
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Well, if you've got first responders rolling in, which is
you know, commonly what you think about the first officer
there was, but more particularly fire service or EMTs, because
they don't know what they're walking into. They have to
go in and assess, and we make a bit of
support of them many times because they you know, they
mess up the scene sometimes for us, but that's not
their job. Their job is to try to save lives
(25:59):
and God bless they saved my life before. So they
have to go in and assess, but they're immediately supposed
to back out, and the police that are there, even
the young youngest uniform cop there, knows to tell them
to get out. Once the scene is locked down, you
have to make sure that it's safe. That's the key.
So they'll be what's referred to as an initial walkthrough
(26:20):
just to secure the scene. So you'll have the police
officers literally going and I'm talking about uniforms now going
from room to room just to make sure that there's
no one else in there, first off, that needs medical assistance,
or secondly, no one that's going to attack them or
attacked whoever is going to follow up, and you're adrenalinist popped,
(26:41):
really pumping at this point in time. It's terrifying. And
so once it's cleared, once it's clear they're not doing
a search for evidence, they're actually doing a search. They're
actually doing a search for a perpetrator. Once they've established
that it's safe, you have to back out. Everybody there,
Every principal backs out. Thing is locked down. They set
up a perimeter. We always see the yellow tape. There's
(27:02):
a reason we have yellow tape. That means do not
cross this boundary that yours, the side is ours. And
then you wait for a warrant. You have to wait
for a warrant, and that generally comes about as a
result of detective showing up and consulting with a DA
They drop a warrant and go to magistrate a judge.
This is what we need. We don't want to go
back in here. There's no exception for homicides constitutionally interesting.
(27:26):
In fact, you need those protections.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Tell that I did not know that.
Speaker 4 (27:30):
Now I think I knew that, but I never really
thought about it.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
So wait, if I walk in, if I'm a cop
and I walk into this crazy crime scene, God forbid,
and I walk into the house and it's quiet, and
I'm looking, I'm looking for danger. Obviously, maybe there's somebody
who is hiding, who's an assailant, maybe there are other victims.
But if I see sort of like a closet a jar,
(27:53):
and I look in and I don't see a person,
but maybe I see some blood trickling on the floor,
do I look further or do I have to wait
for the warrant?
Speaker 3 (28:03):
No? No, if you see blood emanating, you can push
it open and you're going to have your weapon out.
You're going to clear it and make sure that there
is nobody in there. So we're not going to go
digging through the compt I can't.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Go through the drawers for example, or anything.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
No, no, no, no, no, no. That that's Foreboden. You
can't do it to prior to having a warrant, understood.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
So, Joseph, at this scene, my understanding was that there
were many people through the scene and do you have
any thoughts on how secure it was or wasn't, And
also about Prosecutor Bill Thompson going.
Speaker 6 (28:39):
Through the scene.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, it would be one of my biggest questions, Like
if I was if I was using this case an
example to teach at the police academy or even at
the university, we would closely examine this case. And I
hate to question why, but for me, I would say,
why would you make this choice moving forward? Because if
you choose to allow anybody across that threshold, that is
(29:04):
not processing the scene, and that means photography, trace, evance, corner, okay, measurements.
Other than that, no one else needs to go in there.
My understanding was Prosecutor maybe some of his teammates went
in there potentially. I have little or no tolerance for that.
I've been out on scenes where I've had sheriffs walk in.
(29:28):
They have been on a crime scene in twenty years,
but yet they go under the tape. They have no
reason to be there. That's why they keep somebody at
the door with a list, and you have a lot
when you walk in and that Yeah, the log is
you hear about the mystery log. The log. You can
have that subpoena and the attorneys can say, sheriff, why
were you here? You know or I guess you could
(29:50):
technically subpoena compel the DA to testify what's your purpose
for walking through the scene, And they're going to come
up with something like, well, we just wanted to contextualize,
saying now you let the investigators contextualize it for you.
You tell them, no, one, this is like walking into
a freaking surgery suite. If you're not washed up, if
(30:10):
you're not scrubbed up, if you're not covered, you have
no business being there. There's there's no explanation in the
world for you being there. And so that's that's really
something to defense I think can attack if these rumors
are true.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
And that's significant just for the play along. If you're
not familiar with, you know, very violent crime scenes. Is
that look, it's it's sacred if you're entering a crime
scene and it's not meant to be that you're there
and you're not properly washed and you're not I know
this only because I get to work with Joseph Scott Morgan.
If you're entering a crime scene you're contaminating it. Potentially
(30:44):
every person has every person has DNA that they're you know,
air quotes shedding. Such a gross term, but you know
we are right. Or think about it. You walk into
a crime scene, you're wearing certain shoes, it's disrupting the scene.
And later at trial, even if it's not really disruptive,
it gives a real crack into the system for the
defense to say, Hey, we're talking about DNA, we're talking
(31:08):
about blood, We're talking about very important things that could
put a person to death. How was this crime scene handled?
We saw this with the OJ Simpson case. I've learned
this through Joseph Scott Morgan Daily. You know how that
is handled much like a surgical suite. You wouldn't just put,
you know, a party planner as a pilot and have
them land the plane right. It's very specific and therefore
(31:31):
has to be handled with care.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Yeah, for me, people get sick and tired of me
hearing me say this. But our patron saint in forensics
is Edmond Lecard. This guy lived over one hundred years ago.
O or to anybody within the sound of my voice,
look him up. It came up with a theory or
with this treatisy that he developed over one hundred years
ago that says every not some, but every contact leaves
(31:57):
a trace. So you're dragging in any evidence you have
on your person in there, and you're also taking stuff
away and so and Mond got that right. It even
applause in digital forensics, if you can imagine that now,
all those years ago he developed that construct, and it's
fascinating to me and to see. And what's really fascinating
(32:17):
is that our public officials still haven't learned a lesson
that's being taught for over a century now.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Craziness, because it really does affect the trial.
Speaker 7 (32:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
So here we are on the eve of Brian Coberger,
the accused trial. He claims his innocence. It's a death
sentenced trial scheduled for August. He's asked for and continuous.
It doesn't seem as though it's going to get delayed,
but you know, we shall wait and see body and Courtney,
we've all been following it very closely, Joseph, as had you,
of course. But the crime scene being brought into question
(32:48):
is problematic potentially.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Yeah it is. And listen, I'm not saying that they
did anything wrong surely, but these are areas that this
is an air area where the defense can pick this
apart and they're going to try to do that house process.
All you have to do is look back to that
fateful day when they had the crom scene cleanup unit
(33:12):
that are company that was outside of that house. They'dn't
even set up a tent to go in there. They're
wearing their bunny suits before they go in the white
suits to clean it up. Just to look to that,
and we'll talk about due.
Speaker 6 (33:25):
Care then that's right.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
So I had Joseph have the pleasure of speaking about
this on the last season of the Idaho Massacre podcast,
and we touched on with the initial investigation of any
scene in this scene, in particular, how you handle when
there's an animal there, because there was a dog in
this lovely friendly house of all of the college roommates.
Speaker 6 (33:52):
So could you walk people through that a little bit?
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Well, first off, not trying to sound cruel, but because
I'm a big dog lover, but that dog is evidence
to a great degree because if there was any harm
that was perpetrated upon that animal, let's just talk in generalities.
First off, that dog, that dog would need to be
(34:15):
closely examined, closely examined for injuries. Do they pair up
or marry up with any kind of injuries maybe a
victim has sustained. I'm talking from the perspective of cases
that I've worked. Where an animal is present, then you're
going to want to look for trace evidence on the dog,
because dogs are interesting relative to their masters. I've walked,
I've come onto scenes where I've had a dog that
(34:39):
is seated adjacent to their master's body, and the master's
been dead for a long time. They won't move, and
so that also translates into are they carrying any trace
evidence on their little bodies? Any kind of blood, any
kind of hair, And you might think, wow, needle in
a haystack. You know, you're looking for a foreign hair
on a hairy animal. That has to be taken into consideration.
(35:01):
And another consideration is do any of the victims in
the house have trace elements of fiber or hair from
the dog? Really important point here is there anybody else
out there that is being looked at as perpetrator have
hair in their home that may have remembered I talked
about Maccart's principle just a moment ago. Did they take
(35:23):
hair away from the scene because that's a big question, right,
why do you have hair in your domicile that very
well might be tied back to this horrendous scene. You
have to be able to explain that.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
And in the Pullman search warrant for bran Coberger's apartment,
they did find possible animal hair that we don't know
the results of the testing.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Yet though, other than to say that Brian Holberger did
not have an animal correct, but it could have been
from a previous.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
It could be. But they're going to study the morphology
of that hair. Want to say that in forensics, we
study all of the animal key. We'll break that hair down,
take a look at it, and then look at it
genetically as well.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Joseph hold that thought. You'll be right back with us.
We're talking true crime all the time. Colorado husband arrested
for his wife's homicide and more. Brian Coburger and the
Idaho College murders. Stay with us. We talked a little
(36:28):
bit earlier about the Long Island serial killer. Now we're
doing a deep dive into the Idaho college murders. Brian Coburger,
the accused of former PhD student, and you know, technically
it's been you know, much has been made about the
fact that he was potentially studying the crimes he's now
accused of. He's accused of murdering for Idaho college students
(36:49):
in the same house one night, major overkill, no obvious
connection to them other than he was a neighboring student
and might have had a fascination in allegedly allegedly allegedly
death sentenced trials starting in August, and Joseph has been
in it since day one. He has done the podcast,
he's doing the documentary, and where do we begin.
Speaker 5 (37:12):
I'd love to hear. You've been so helpful talking us
through the.
Speaker 4 (37:17):
For the microphone.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yes, no, we're both so eager.
Speaker 5 (37:20):
More Joseph, I wanted to get into a little bit
the coroner, what happens, what happened with the corner. What
do people need to know about that process, either in
general and then specifically in this case.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Kind of let me break it down to you how
the corner works, because that's where I dance, where my
career was. So when the police roll out on a
scene they have a death, that's at you know, wherever
it is. After they secure the scene, the corner or
the medical legal representative. Some states don't have corners, have
medical examiners. We can do an entire show on that
at one point, Tom, but the reality is this, they
(37:59):
will summon the corner to the scene. Now the corner
is not there just as a livery service for the dead.
They're there to do an assessment on the scene to
give you an idea as to the status of the
body before the body is ever removed, because there's certain
things that have to be gleaned at the scene relative
to the body that you can't wait until you get
(38:20):
to the morgu to examine or to pick up data
to retrieve. And that's postmortem interval. It's the biggest thing.
So we're talking about the level of rigidity or ryger mortis,
post mortem lividity, the settling of blood, is it fixed
or is it still what we refer to is blanchable.
And third is going to be what's referred to as
(38:44):
algor mortis, which is body temperature. And just so that
you understand, and I'm going to put this in a
framework so that everyone can kind of see where I'm
going with this. For the first hour, for the first
hour after death, you lose one to two degrees of
your body temp. Okay, So we're at ninety eight point six.
(39:07):
For every hour after death, you lose an additional one
degree and this is in fahrenheit, okay, till the twelfth hour.
Then it's a twelfth hour, our bodies assume room temperature.
So it's the job of the corner at the scene
to assess every one of those bodies and get an
(39:28):
idea for that framework. And that's key in this case
because if we are just to go along with a
narrative that we've heard about, okay, and we think about, well,
Xanna got her food delivery just after four okay, and
then we know allegedly that you know, this may people
(39:49):
are saying that it happened towards the bottom of the hour,
from maybe four fifteen. You know, in that timeframe. If
you go with that idea, they've been deceased for that
period of time. This call doesn't normal. This call doesn't
come in until about eleven. Well, the police roll up.
How long did it take the corner to finally get
out there where she's going to do the examination. If
(40:12):
you're talking about body temperature, that data is blown to
hell at that point in time.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
And this was a complicated case. Yeah, it just was
hours before any activity happened. Right, So if the murders
occurred in the wee hours at around four am, real,
the authorities didn't get there until closer to noon, highly
you know, contemplated. But that's a big difference.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
Yeah, it is. And this is this is the cold
time of year. So let's just say you've got a
body that's laying next to event for and you've got
central heat on. Well, the body's not going to cool
at the same rate, all right, because it's being exposed
to this heat. That's a big question. People always call
alcim mortis postpartum cooling. That's not accurate. All bodies cool
(41:01):
after death, well the majority of them do, but not
all of them do. Depend upon environmental conditions because not
only does the temperature on a body have to be measured,
you have to measure the ambient environmental temperature in order
to establish a baseline mathematically, and that has to be done.
And then I haven't even touched on the rigidity of
(41:22):
the body because that can be marked by time. You know,
it starts in the small muscles. Well they say it
starts everywhere, but it's first appreciating small muscles of the
face extends outward. The large muscle groups are the first ones,
are the last ones you can really appreciate it, like
if you're going to the hips to you know, check
the knees, the hips for flexation. And then post warm
(41:45):
avidity settling a blood, which is actually my favorite because
it's only impacted by gravity. So if a body has
been moved, I can tell you if that body has
been moved simply by the deposition of formal avidity. So
all of that stuff has to be assessed.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Can I tell you just a little insider. When Joseph
and I were on the phone when these murders tragically
first happened, we were blown away and were glued to
the phone, glued to the TV. And I want to
go on record as saying I think Joseph Scott Morgan
ahead of anybody. It had been reported about days after
(42:24):
Joseph Scott Morgan identified that there had been a sheath.
I didn't even know what that was.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
I talked to him too about that anactly. I was
live on TikTok and I was talking about how, of
course there's a sheath. This was before Brian Coberger was arrested,
and it was because Joseph's got Morgan and I think
it's important to talk about that.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Let's discuss can I didn't even know what that was,
so tell us everything.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
Two days after the murder, there was a press conference
and at this press conference, the sheriff or whatever said
this was all done with the fixed blated weapon. And
Joseph brilliantly was like, there's a sheath and I'm like,
how do you know that? And He's like, how would
they know it was a fixed blade weapon? The autopsies
haven't even been done yet, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Like, oh my god, you're so smart. He said this
before it had been read.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
It has been where he made me look very smart.
Let me just tell you that.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
And by the way, if you're just listening right now,
you pull off a sheath, it's like the kind of
the covering of this blade. You know you've seen Rambo.
You take it in and out of your like, uh,
your holster. Again, I don't have a great knife knowledge,
but Joseph has explained this to me. So the scariest
image was Joseph describing what could have happened in the
(43:37):
days weeks leading up to the murders is that whoever
had this knife and said sheath was likely practicing in
the mirror, kind of taking the knife out of the holster,
in the beckett, out of the holster, and then back
in practicing it. Because under the snap of this sheath,
which is like the cover to this knife, that's where
(43:57):
the DNA droplet was found, and it would imply that
their finger was on it. I think Dexter thinks scary
people practicing horrifying. It's a horrifying image.
Speaker 5 (44:08):
It is a horrifying images, right, Speaking of the knife,
what do people need to know about the wounds? Because
a lot was made of that. Yeah, is there anything
you think people need to know?
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Yeah? I think so. There's two types of wounds that
have been alluded to, and it's classic forensic pathology some
things we study. So you've got what are referred to
as in sized wounds, which if you think about I
think it was shakespeare Death bout thousand cuts, right, cuts
are in sized wounds are shallow but long. Okay, So
(44:46):
if you think about slices, all right, I think that Xana,
the description that we have for her, you know, cut
down to the tendons on her hand. Then we have
stab wounds, okay, and stab wounds are deeper than long
and so you've got these two things that are going on.
So you have someone that is utilizing an edged weapon, uh,
(45:11):
that is driving that weapon into a body, bodies multiple
times according to what we've heard, and then the slashing,
and you know, there's these and I'm saying this not
to be crude or any way, but the interesting I'm
interested compelled if you will scientifically virtue the way they're
(45:34):
describing Ethan's injuries. There was alluded to an injury on
the neck at one point time. And then you've got
this bizarre term they're using right now, carving, which I
don't really understand what that means. I know what carving is, obviously,
but I and so you've got.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
What does that mean?
Speaker 3 (45:53):
It sounds yeah, I mean carving, carving to a lot
of people, I think, just everyday folks, you know, And
I'm an everyday person, Yeah, thinking about carving, you know,
I'm thinking about woodworking, all kinds of things that are
out there. So you know, you can leave a word
behind I listen, not to go too far field, but
we've been covering the case out of Atlanta for a
(46:15):
long time. This lady that was walking her dog and
she was found in Piedmont Park and she had the
word fat carved into her stomach and her dog was
also killed a pit bull. Horrendous case, by the way,
that case is still open, unsolved.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
And where was this, Yeah, Atlanta?
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Yeah, and actually.
Speaker 4 (46:37):
Is writing that down there?
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, writing that down bow and yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
A chilling case. Chilling case absolutely yeah. So yeah, So
I think that from the perspective of injuries, Uh, that's
one of the things that the pathologist is going to
They're they're going to go into great detail. You're going
to hear so much in this trial about edge weapon
and about the nature of them and what can you
learn And one of the things that I have learned
(47:06):
working cases involving multiple stab wounds, you're going to have
you might even hear them say that they can't delineate
between two separate wounds because they're cross communicating. So if
you have this motion, you know, you guys had mentioned overkill,
which you get classically, and you can see where it's
not a reinsertion into a wound, but it's almost like
(47:30):
a good an you can't tell where one ends and
one begins. It gets rather complex.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
And by the way, what a hideous mode to use, right,
Like it wasn't like he not that shooting somebody with
a gun is easier, but this is a rainbow knife,
very close contact.
Speaker 4 (47:47):
It's also worth noting that in the PCA, the wounds
are described to us or whatever. In the Blaker PA,
it's noted that Ethan's wounds were described from the Spokane
Medical Examiner and not the corner. And I think that
might also contribute to like some of the difference, because
you know, there's going to be different terminology between a
(48:08):
corner and a medical examiner, and I think that's important
to note. I want to talk about the Zillo and
like the house mock up, right that all the photos
of basically the layout of the house are on Zillo
or a site like that. What's the significance of the
closet door as.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Joseph for me? And this is before they captured anybody,
all right, I had an idea in my mind that
first off, I think that this was sexual related, even
if there's no sexual assault, just the use of a
knife is the knife for many people who represents a
(48:47):
fallast and so they repeated over and over thing going on.
You've got these two beautiful young women that they thought
were the targets that that was coming out in the beginning.
And I thought that, and plus we kept hearing about
how unsecure this apartment was or home, everybody music downstairs,
(49:09):
keypad code, and then the sliders were habitually left unsecured.
I thought that if this was a predator, they would
have gone into the closets. We referred to them as
panty sniffers. That's why they kind of start off and
they watch from inside of closet. But you have to
have a secured and I was thinking deposition of DNA,
maybe visitations multiple times. I talked about this several years ago.
(49:32):
Then I saw the Zillow images and there's no doors
on the closet.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
None of them.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
And that was a big Yeah. That was a big
queue to me, Uh, you know relative to you know, well,
where doors ever there? Or is this something that had
previously been moved? Were doors up something?
Speaker 4 (49:51):
You would have known this because they made tiktoks and
instagram posts of from inside the home in all the
different rooms too, right, it would have been able to
stake this house out from his from his own living room. Right,
you don't have Yeah, yeah, what is.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
The significant If you ever want an advertisement for what
not to do with your social media, don't show the
inside of your home. That TikTok with those young ladies
has stuck with me over all of these years because
not only if you watch this thing, they pan around
that entire second floor, you can see the layout. All
(50:26):
you got to slow this thing down if you if
you capture this thing, and then they're portraying each other's personalities.
This is not about victim blaming here. This is just
about what the individual could have seen inside. It's like reconnaissance.
Without doing reconnaissance, it's a heavy it's an easy lift
for somebody that's interested in.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
You and stranger danger. Right, we know about that, Oh,
don't let the weirdo follow you home at night. But
in reality, what we don't all realize, and God knows
I do this and this particular case has like stopped me.
But you know, on social media, we all show like, oh,
photos at Thanksgiving, and what you don't realize is that
you're giving a full blueprint of your home. You're showing doors,
(51:11):
you're showing windows, you're showing the identifying you know, spots
in the in the front yard, et cetera. And if
you're you know, dealing with somebody who's emotionally not well
or psychologically twisted, who just takes a fascination with you online,
look suddenly you're down the rabbit hole and you're examining
that house to understand better entrances and exits. And in
(51:36):
Idaho specifically, they all lived off campus, and you know,
it's a party house that was supposed to be a
party house. That's what they were doing. They were all graduating,
or some of them were, and this was a house
that was like frequented for fun and no shame in
that game. Other than now retrospectively, we know that they
were really active on social media, the victims. So if
(51:57):
you're a weirdo watching somebody from the outside side of
a house looking in, you may develop a relationship with
someone online that has no idea who you are. Scary,
it's a scariest It is scary, next level to the
Halloween movies because if he's if he's noticing there's no
doors on these closets, he knows that he can't sneak
(52:17):
in the house while they're at the football game, right,
the Vandals football game, partying and having a good time.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
And wait for them to come home. Yes, you're not
going to be able to hide.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Wait, is that why you're saying the doors? I don't.
I'm not totally tracking, forgive me, because that's why I'm saying.
And I thought, what's what what's the significance of their
not being doors on the closets and.
Speaker 4 (52:37):
That he can't hide in the house basically and in
one of their bedrooms right Scarier I'm guessing.
Speaker 3 (52:46):
Yeah, that was early on, because you know who doesn't
have doors on their closet. And when I finally saw
the photos of it, I had to discount the idea
that he had been hiding out and watching, you know,
because if let's just say, you go up there at
a party and this is not just me saying this,
people have said it for a long time now, and
(53:06):
you make your way through the house at one of
these parties that's going on, and you kind of hang
back and you wait, and you go into closet, you
hang out in there, you act out fantasies, all these
sorts of things. It struck me as potential for this
because look, who whoever went into the now torn down
home they had I think that they had reconned it
(53:28):
in some way, that the structure of the thing is insane.
You'd have to be familiar with it. And one more thing,
you could be in the middle of the night with
the lights on that house up the hill and see
everything that's going on through the windows.
Speaker 4 (53:42):
Oh boy, that's a really good point. And that's probably
I think what he did.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Not back to this list against only get so much.
I literally can't my brain from all of the sad.
But I'm so curious too, So take it away, body,
because somewhat more, there's.
Speaker 4 (54:00):
Google searches that he did as well. There's Google searches,
and again that's I just kind of want to go
through a couple of them very quickly, just in case
you're just joining us, can you tell us a little bit? Okay,
so long il well sorry. LISK stands for Long Island
serial Killer and the accused is Rex Hureman. He's a
fifty nine year old architect from New York, Long Island.
(54:23):
He's been alleged to have been involved in seven murders.
There's eleven in total. He's linked to two more so
potentially nine and the other two he's not linked to yet,
And there's been basically digital forensics done on his computer
to retrieve Google searches. And that's kind of what I'm
(54:44):
talking about right now, is some of the thats Google search.
Speaker 5 (54:45):
Body, I have a feeling I know exactly where you're going,
And I just wanted to say, this is a trigger warning. Yes,
So yeah, we're about to discuss some disturbing specifics in
the Rex Hureman case. Some are violence, sexual nature. So yeah,
the listener discretion is strongly advised.
Speaker 6 (55:03):
No children.
Speaker 4 (55:04):
Yeah, and I'm not going to I'm not gonna talk
about some of the more graphic and insulting ones. I
guess they're all pretty insulting. But some of the things
are wooden pony porn. Is that I don't know?
Speaker 2 (55:20):
Wooden pony porn?
Speaker 4 (55:22):
Girl, I am like a nun.
Speaker 2 (55:25):
Vanilla? How have we been talking about Diddy for weeks now?
How how could we be this vanilla? What is? If
anybody knows the answer to this, you could leave us
a message. Uh eight eight eighty three one crime so
wooden pony porn.
Speaker 4 (55:40):
Yeah, Another one is gold. I can't say some of
these are really Bad Long Island Mistress b DSM, which
is interesting because he mentions the hard point in that
the checklist that we went over. The hard points are
often associated with the b DSM lifestyle, which is completely
normal and nothing. There's no shame in that. But it's
(56:03):
just a stand for bondage. Bondage.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
I don't know, it's it's something with like, yeah, it's
a little bit like what is the movie uh with
the bonded Uh. I have no idea was based in
the book.
Speaker 6 (56:16):
Oh are you talking about that? Every woman?
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (56:20):
Fifty shades of gray? Fifty shades of gray? Wasn't that
a smidge of that? Oh my god, this is so
painful that I'm saying this out left.
Speaker 6 (56:27):
Yeah. Yeah, but you're exactly right, Stephanie. That is that
is what.
Speaker 2 (56:31):
Mom closed your ears.
Speaker 4 (56:32):
Yeah, this is all just very This is all just
very interesting.
Speaker 2 (56:35):
That Johnson taught me it. But we have a.
Speaker 4 (56:37):
Caller, Stephanie, and I would really like to hear what
Stephanie has to say and whatnot.
Speaker 7 (56:43):
Hey, Hi, Stephanie, I want to Hi.
Speaker 8 (56:47):
I would like to circle back to the house.
Speaker 7 (56:51):
I came into listening to the Idaho for Case through
you and some other people and I still have our
time understanding really the reasoning that the house was tore down,
And I just wondered if you guys knew of any
other cases where something had.
Speaker 8 (57:11):
Happened in a house they tore it down, or that
there was the contrary a benefit to keeping it where
people could the jury could go in and actually observe firsthand.
I really am torn on that. I think that they
should have kept the house up, and I just want
to know your guys's opinions on that.
Speaker 4 (57:30):
You're definitely You're definitely not alone in that feeling. A
lot of people are, you know, really actually very upset
that the house is taken down. I my own personal
viewpoint on that is that I don't think a jury
would have ever been allowed in that house. We've gotten
pictures of some of the inside of the house from
the faral target scan that was done. We were able
(57:51):
to see in some of the rooms and walls and
floors have been removed from the home. I don't know
that a judge would have allowed a jury to go
in there. Additionally, since it's been moved now, I know
the house was torn down before the trial got moved,
but it's hours and hours and hours away, and everybody
always references myrdal. Well, they took murd all to the
(58:11):
crime scene. Yeah, it was outside true.
Speaker 2 (58:13):
And the piked and massacre. We also took jurors to
that site, although the locations had since been removed. Again,
I'm just gonna quote Joseph Scott Morgan while he stares
at us. Yeah, and just he's gonna test me. He
wants the house up. He's gonna test me on what
I've learned just by his presence. But Stephanie, you and
I are thinking exactly the same. The truth is we
(58:34):
don't know, and therefore shouldn't we not know until after
the trial? Like who knows? We all could be right
and we all could be wrong, But maybe just a
couple more months and we can then destroy the house
because who knows what evidence that what maybe proves him
innocent or maybe proves him guilty.
Speaker 4 (58:55):
No, And I think that's a really interesting point and
it's very fair. But stick around next because we're gonna
be fill on on a mom who vanished without a trace.
In years later, her husband is charged with murder, And
don't forget to call us at eight thirty one crime
with your thoughts on any of Tonight's stories, keep it
regular true crime.
Speaker 2 (59:11):
Tonight, we're talking about the Long Island serial killer right now,
Rex Humor Men, who has been accused of being linked
to seven women on Long Island. There are eleven that
(59:31):
have been identified so far. It's very possible that he'll
be linked to more, allegedly allegedly allegedly, but this is
a very specific case because this was a regular man
who commuted to New York City every day and then
out of that no more, which is a little similar
to Brian Coburger in the Idaho college murders. Because similarly,
(59:52):
this is again a really like upwardly mobile guy, educated,
living a good life. Why would he possibly commit a
CROs I'm for college students so quickly. Why would anybody
do that? It doesn't make any sense. So Courtney, I
just see you raising your hand right now. Did you
have a question for the room?
Speaker 6 (01:00:09):
Yeah, well kind of. I was just gonna say.
Speaker 5 (01:00:11):
I know, we've already started plotting research, so we are
going to be getting into all of that this week,
so stay tuned for all of the details. But I
think right now, I'm so excited, That's why I had
to raise my hand there is the case of the
mother who vanished on Mother's Day. Her husband has just
been charged with her murder body. What do we need
(01:00:34):
to know about it?
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
So much?
Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
There is a lot to go over with the Morphew case.
And while we have Joseph here though, we're kind of
here's the thing. This case is going to be big.
It already is kind of big, but it's going to
be big, and we're going to be deep diving this
in the coming weeks, I would say, probably coming weeks.
And while Joseph is here though, I kind of want
to skip ahead a little bit because I want to
(01:00:59):
get into the front while we have him. But I
want to give everybody listening a little bit of background first.
So Barry Morphew was indicted on Friday this Friday, June
twentieth by a grand jury for allegedly killing his wife,
who disappeared on Mother's Day in twenty twenty, Suzanne, forty nine.
She went reported missing from her home with him in Molfat,
(01:01:21):
Colorado after she went for a bike ride and she
never came back. Her body was never found. Okay, well,
a year later on in twenty twenty one, like almost
I think exactly a year later, Barry Morphew was arrested.
So four years ago he was arrested and charged with
the murder. Prosecutors alleged that Barry was responsible for her death,
(01:01:41):
citing evidence such as a trail of suspicious texts, weird
behavior and all this like crazy behavior after she disappeared.
They suggested that the motive for the crime would be
related to susan want to divorce or leave him. Okay, Well,
in April of twenty twenty two, a year after that,
after a really long investigation and legal proceedings, prosecutors recommended
(01:02:02):
that they drop charges because they couldn't prove it and
they knew and they wanted it. They wanted it dismissed
with prejudice or without prejudice so that they could recharge
them again, and they got that was successful, so he
was arrested. Well, I guess three years have gone by now, right, Joseph.
Three years have gone by and he got re arrested.
So I just kind of want to jump right in
(01:02:24):
to what the indictment says, because the indictment gives us
a really good insight into some of the forensics in
this case, which are going to be huge okay, and
I'm going to read before we get to Joseph. I
want to read the part that I think is the
most alarming in the indictment. Okay, A board certified forensics
I'm sorry, A board certified forensic anthropologist, a botanist, and
(01:02:48):
an entomologist all analyzed the remains and several observations were noted.
There was a distinct lack of bug activity, which was
inconsistent with the remains having decomposed at that location. The
clothing items lacked evidence of dcomp which was also inconsistent
with Suzanne Morphew wearing the bike clothes at the time
(01:03:09):
her body decomposed. Additionally, there was a lack of animal
predication on the bones, there was a very small amount
of soft tissue found on the bones, and there was
no hair mass located. All of these features would have
been expected if this had been her original grave site
where the decomp occurred. A forensic anthropologist opined that based
(01:03:33):
on these factors, it was unlikely that Suzanne decomposed from
a fresh body to a skeleton at this location. So
the implications of this where she was put somewhere where
she experienced dcomp and then redressed right.
Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
Wait, because dressed like clothes put back on is what
that means, because it.
Speaker 4 (01:03:53):
Says the body, it says the indictment. The clothing items
lacked evidence of dcomp wait her dead.
Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
This is very graphic. Heard, I'm sorry her decompose her
body now no longer living, her dead body. Whoever did this,
allegedly her husband, he like got her dressed again and
then put her someplace else.
Speaker 4 (01:04:13):
He had to put her in my mother's day.
Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
They have two beautiful children together who have stood by
him as his daughters.
Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
He has two daughters, are crazy and there they were
seventeen and nineteen at the time of good death, and
I think they're like twenty four and twenty two.
Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
Now twenty two. I believe. I'll do a fact check,
but that's my understanding as well.
Speaker 4 (01:04:35):
And they have stayed by his side. They have stayed
by his side.
Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
They miss their mom deeply. I imagine of Joseph.
Speaker 4 (01:04:42):
So, Joseph, what stands out to you and all this, Joseph,
what is the in what I just read from the indictment?
What stands out to you?
Speaker 3 (01:04:50):
Well? I think now this new information, you know, have
been covering the same since twenty I said, saying in
this case since twenty twenty, I think is when it
first popped and was just knee deep in it. The
first time I had heard this is the first time
I've heard about the idea that she may have been
(01:05:10):
redeposited somewhere her remains had been. And this is chilling
because whoever perpetrated this death and if we were to
believe what the entomologists and the anthropologist are saying, she
would have had to have been removed from the initial
location and still protective against animal predation, because one of
(01:05:33):
the things that you're looking for after death was skal
for remains. Is you have this, and forgive me because
this is rathographic, but you actually have gnawing on bones,
and you'd be surprised what animals out there do this.
It's not big animals. We're talking about raccoons, possums, these
sorts of things. So that means that someone put a
(01:05:56):
lot of thought into this and removed her remains to
another location, which is incredible.
Speaker 4 (01:06:03):
What kind of area can protect the human body from
animal preantation?
Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
Like what kind of field area? A field area of
some kind. Yeah, and I don't know where that might
have been, and for me, it's it's mind boggling. I
don't know. I've had bodies that have been replaced in
locations or have been placed in other locations after having
(01:06:29):
been killed, but to this extent and particularly the redressing,
is something that's very interesting to me because it's it's
so over the top.
Speaker 4 (01:06:39):
It is.
Speaker 5 (01:06:40):
Yeah, how common is it for the redressing and what
is the purpose? Is that something sort of ritualistic or
trying to not frame.
Speaker 3 (01:06:49):
Yourself with Yeah, yeah, actually with redressing. That's that's a
term that we generally utilized when we're talking about serial events,
and that goes into theopathy of individuals that like to
dress bodies and do all that sort of thing. Yeah,
and uh, you know, when you hear this is an
(01:07:09):
example somebody that's going to go to great links in
order to kind of cover their their tracks here because
remember the one that one thing about this is she
went out for a bike ride. She went out for
a bike ride. The bike is found off the side
of the road. There's no blood trails, you know, all
nothing ever really married up with a narrative we were
(01:07:33):
we were hearing and now they're talking about redressing a body.
This is this is super bizarre man.
Speaker 4 (01:07:40):
They also talked about her her bones had been bleached.
Now it's important to know that Barry Morphew, he has
like a deer farm at one point in Indiana, I think.
And at this deer farm he would shoot a tranquilizer
and it's full of this material called bam okay, and
it's like a tranquilizer that and then he would cut
(01:08:02):
the antlers off the deer, which by the way, is illegal.
And he so they found in the autops her bones
had been bleached. And I'm wondering, and they found this bam,
this chemical, this drug in her bone marrow was Do
you think he was trying to like hide that specific peace, Joseph.
(01:08:23):
Do you think that's why he's doing the bleaching.
Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
I think I think that we need to be very well,
we need to see we need to be very careful
when they're saying bleaching. Okay, yeah, what do you mean
for most of us, you know, we're thinking about taking
chlorox and writing something. Bones. This is a very even
though it's Colorado in a beautiful area of state, by
the way, but very isolated. It's arid there. So if
(01:08:46):
you take remains and lay them out in this environment,
they will be bleached by the sun.
Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
Oh cool.
Speaker 3 (01:08:53):
Well, so I think that that's one of the things. Now,
I'm not saying that they don't have evidence that some
form of bleach was used, but I think that we
need to be real.
Speaker 4 (01:09:04):
The hotel smelled the bleach, right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
Yeah, the hotel there was this incident that had occurred.
There's been bleached there, but that was right after she
had gone missing. So how are you going to get
the bones to bleach at that point in time or
affect them with bleach?
Speaker 6 (01:09:23):
All right, man, I'm actually I'm new to this case.
Speaker 5 (01:09:25):
What if you can we don't have much time, But
what's the importance of the hotel.
Speaker 4 (01:09:29):
He was staying he when she went missing, he was
out of town, working on like a project outside of town,
and he was staying at a hotel allegedly.
Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
Allegedly, that's why Alibi said, which is why he was
I think released. Jump in. If anybody disagrees, call us.
But like I think he was dismissed soon after the
murders happened. This is the husband Barry because like all
of his stuff checked out and it didn't totally add up.
They didn't have enough evidence now years later, even after
(01:09:59):
just if you called it body, You've been following this
for years and years too. He's been brought in claims.
My friend Linda brought it to my attention. Yeah, because
I remember major This is a major case, but also
a major case of a like enormy a regular person
who's living a full, happy life, who does hideous things.
(01:10:20):
Imagine leaving your wife in the sun to be bleached
by the sun.
Speaker 4 (01:10:25):
I alleged to ask, I need to ask about the
distinct lack of insects at the at the location. What
does that tell you, Joseph, like, talk to me about in.
Speaker 3 (01:10:38):
One of the no one of them. Is a great
question because one of the things that we always see
at a crime scene where we have a decomposing body
are maggot husk, and there's these hard little shells they
shild as they're going through their life cycle. According to
what we're hearing, that's completely absent there. Wow, you generally
see them scattered about. You'll see multiple Listen, folks, understand this.
(01:11:00):
You'll see multiple generations of these husks because flies are
multi generational. They come, they go, they come, and according
to what the entomologists to say, and there's no evidence
of that. And that's that's what's so very striking about
this again. That goes to this larger idea that perhaps
she was deposited here after having been somewhere else.
Speaker 4 (01:11:24):
Well, and there was no mass of hair either, which
is interesting. They said there was no hair mass located.
Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
What does that mean? I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
Well, deepening upon where they were. You know, I've actually
had cases where I've had skeletonal skeletal remains before, where
we have found bird nests that are made out of
human hair because they'll collect the birds will come and
collect hair. So I wonder, I really wonder if there's
an initial location where she was, where you may have
(01:11:55):
had this curve where you had evidence of insect activity
and also this av thing where they may have come
in taken hair away.
Speaker 4 (01:12:04):
She might have been exposed to the elements, especially if
her bones were like sun bleached, right, she could have
just been exposed to the elements out there. Oh, poor Susan.
Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
Poor Susan didn't know about the status of those clothing
would very very interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
Yeah, I wonder what the thing was that decided for investigators,
like what was the missing piece that tipped over her
body obviously, but like they suddenly were like, this is
the guy, we got him? Were they doing it her body?
Speaker 4 (01:12:35):
And then when they did the bone marrow testing and
found that band chemical and realized he used it at
the deer farm, that was it.
Speaker 6 (01:12:40):
I think that we.
Speaker 4 (01:12:41):
Didn't they know that last time he didn't.
Speaker 5 (01:12:44):
Have a body, and it's really really hard to go
to trial without a body. Of course gets done, but well,
I think Sundays with Joseph for maybe my favorite.
Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
Yeah, I know, it's like it's not exactly Tuesdays with Maury,
it's basically Sundays with Joseph. Different twist, definitely a different twist,
but we are learning a lot about life and big
ticket items. And honestly, Joseph, the thing that is so
exciting about you when we say this about you behind
your back all the time, is that you make very
(01:13:17):
scary information, which is important for us to note to
organize these kinds of cases in our heads. I think
it brings us weird comfort to better understand them. And
you have a way of describing these very gory details
in a way that's not comforting. Isn't the right word,
but I guess palpable and it makes us feel like
safer in the world because of you.
Speaker 3 (01:13:39):
Well, it's a slight. My old friend Vinny Politan on
Core TV taught me many years ago at ah Lean.
I just have to teach, and that's that's what I
try to do anytime I join you guys. I love
to teach. People deserve to be taught. They deserve to
be educated. They all do. Everybody. Everybody deserves a shot
at that.
Speaker 2 (01:13:59):
We're talking True Time all the time. We will hear
from you tomorrow. Make sure you join us True Crime tonight.
Have a great evening.
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