A Conversation with Amanda Knox: Reclaiming Her Story & The Dark Truths Behind Wrongful Convictions

Amanda Knox joins us for an unfiltered conversation about her new show, life after wrongful conviction, and what it means to reclaim your narrative in a media world that once vilified her. She reflects on the interrogation tactics that shaped her case, the lasting impact on her life, and the lessons she hopes others can take from her journey. Amanda is the executive producer of The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, now streaming on Hulu, host of the Hard Knox podcast, and author of Free: My Search for Meaning. Plus, we dig into Bryan Kohberger’s prison leaks and his bizarre selfies. Tune in for all the details.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the host, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Thursday, September eighteenth. I'm Stephanie
Leidecker and I head up KAT Studios, where we make
true crime podcasts and documentaries like the Idaho Student Murders
streaming now on Peacock or the Idaho Massacre of season
three Catch It now on iHeart, and I get to

(00:40):
be here every night with Courtney Armstrong and Body move In.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
So listen.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
We're going a little off script tonight because we have
such a special guest, an extraordinary woman, here to talk
about resilience and inspiration and really how to get to
the other side of real trauma. Amanda Knox is with
a Tonight for the full hour. So before we go
any further, Courtney a little setup of the story.

Speaker 4 (01:06):
Amanda Knox's story is one of the most widely covered
wrongful conviction cases in modern history. In two thousand and seven,
while studying abroad in Perusia, Italy, her roommate Meredith Percher
was murdered. Amanda quickly became the focus of the investigation.
Language barriers, cultural misunderstandings, and a media firestorm turned her
life upside down. Amanda spent nearly four years in prison

(01:29):
and endured eight years of trials. Finally before Italy Supreme Court,
she was acquitted of murder in twenty fifteen. Today, Amanda
is an advocate, journalist, and storyteller. She is the executive
producer of The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, now streaming
on Hulu. She also hosts the podcast Hard Knox. Amanda

(01:49):
serves as Advisory Council Chair for the Frederick Douglas Project
for Justice. She is an Innocence Network Ambassador and sits
on the board of the Innocent Center. Amanda Knox is
more more than a survivor of injustice. She's a leading
voice for truth, accountability, and reform.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
Welcome amand an Ox. We're so excited. We're so excited.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
I get a little bit of a chill even hearing
this setup there. We all really remember your story so
much when it first happened, and really seeing you on
the other side is such an inspiration for all of us,
and as I was saying before we started the show,
our community and audience, we're all justice junkies, So you
have come to just the right place. We are your

(02:32):
people and we want to hear it all. So I mean, listen,
congratulations on the extraordinary show. Your Hulu scripted series is
a harrowing watch. If you haven't seen it, anyone, please do.
It's on Hulu and it is really dizzying almost you
really feel the chaos. First of all, I love the
actress so much who plays you.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yeah, she's so incredible.

Speaker 5 (02:54):
She really really takes just completely loses herself in the part.
And it's a hard part to lose yourself in because
she's playing you know, me at twenty years old, she's
playing me at thirty five years old.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
As she's playing me at all.

Speaker 5 (03:10):
Stages of fluency and Italian from none to everything. She
worked her butt off to perform this role, and I'm
just so proud of her and grateful to her. Yeah,
it's been an incredible time working with her.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
It's an extraordinary watch too.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
And to that end, I'm curious, you know, as an
executive producer, I mean, clearly you're taking your narrative back.
You're telling your story through your own vision, which is really.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Extraordinary, and it does.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
It has a vibe, it's cool, it's petrifying, and you know,
it's all of our worst nightmares, honestly. So I'm so
curious just watching your show from a different perspective, is
there a certain scene or something that while watching affected
you in a different way than you expected it to,
because perspective is such a powerful thing.

Speaker 3 (03:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (04:00):
Well, I will say that working on this series has
been very different. It's been a very different experience for
me than the many other ways that I've attempted to
reclaim my story right, Like I have been screaming from
the rooftops what my story has been since, you know,
the early days of what was going on, and it's

(04:22):
been a very lonely battle trying to just prove my
innocence and be believed. But now working on this series,
I find myself a part of a community, like takes
a village to make a Hulu series, So I get
to share the burden of telling this story with others

(04:43):
who just are coming from their own places, like they
have their own context for appreciating what happened to me
and what happened, you know, to my roommate Meredith, what
happened to my co defendant and ex boyfriend, raphe La. Like,
there's so many people whose lives were just irrevocably impacted
by the series of events that took place in Italy,

(05:04):
And I think that one of the things that we
all had in mind was really trying to get it
right after so much of the telling of it was
so wrong and so exploitative and so scandalous and really
like lost track of what even the truth was for
the sake of that scandal, And so everyone was really
really intent on getting it right from a factual standpoint,

(05:28):
but also getting it right from an emotive standpoint. And
for me, there are so many beautiful scenes that really
matter to me in this series, everything from the kind
like a lot of the series is about human connection
and how we come together and how we are torn
apart and what are the.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
Forces that do that.

Speaker 5 (05:47):
But as an advocate, like as somebody now who is
devoting a significant amount of my energy and time to
trying to change the system that we all rely on,
the justice system that we rely on, for the better,
based upon what I've learned from my own experience. The
biggest scene that I was most concerned about getting right

(06:10):
from both a factual and emotive standpoint was the interrogation scene,
which is an episode two, and it's an intense scene,
and it's something that I was nervous going into this
because I knew that I was the only person, the
only person in this entire village of people who had
ever been interrogated before. And also I had gone through

(06:34):
my entire adult life being not believed and not just
not believed about what happened to me, but also blamed
like I was criminally charged for how I like what
happened in my interrogation, where I was absolutely at the
mercy of the police officers, and so I think, maybe
just from a trauma standpoint, like I was really concerned

(06:56):
about making sure that my partners in this process understood
what this experience was like for me, so that they
could represent that on screen. And part of the challenge was,
I mean, there were many challenges. One of the challenges
was that my approach to this telling of the story
has very much been grounded in the idea that there

(07:16):
are no black and white villains, right, that is, it
is so important for understanding how wrongful convictions happen, to
not turn it into a black and white narrative where
there's a victim and a villain and a hero and
nothing in between.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
And there are.

Speaker 5 (07:33):
Cases of like egregious cases of wrongful conviction where the
police knew exactly what they were doing and they were
framing incent people. But that's not what I believe happened
in my case, and that's not what happens in so
many wrongful conviction cases. What really happens is that police
officers and prosecutors convince themselves of the guilt of an

(07:54):
innocent person and then pursue a case against them with
confirmation bias, like cherry picking evidence to make a person
seem guilty, ignoring evidence that exonerates them, and finding excuses
to justify their preconceived ideas. And so that's what I
believed happened, and that was something that I wanted to convey.

(08:15):
I wanted people who watched this series to feel like,
no matter whose shoes they were stepping into, they could
appreciate how that person's mind was working. And so in
the interrogation room, you have a lot of people and
there's a lot of conflict happening, not just even between
me and the interrogators, but even amongst the interrogators. There

(08:36):
are those who are trying to be gentle with me,
trying to coax me. There are those who are being
really aggressive towards me. And everyone is coming to that scenario,
you know, exhausted, having already worked overtime numerous days. There's
the language barrier, there's the media, the media pressure, and
so everyone is coming into that scenario not their best

(08:59):
self and trying to like convey that dynamic, that psychological
dynamic between all of these different forces and how they
collide and the dramatic and tragic outcome that arises was
really important to me. And then the other thing that
was important to me. And you know, even as we
were filming, we didn't really have a clear plan for

(09:20):
how to portray this. You know, you see interrogation scenes
on TV, but you've never seen what it feels like
for the defendant, how they are encouraged to imagine things
that didn't actually happen. How do you convey what's happening
inside the mind of the person who's being interrogated.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
You spoke very little Italian too, right, This is exactly
language barrier.

Speaker 5 (09:43):
Oh one hundred percent. There was cultural barriers, language barriers,
and then of course there's this idea that they're implanting
in my mind at the time that I'm trying to
make sense of as I'm like blurring memories into each
other to try to make them make sense after they
tell me I have trauma induced amnesia. Like, there's so
much going on from a psychological standpoint, and I really

(10:06):
wanted to get it right so that people could actually
put themselves in the shoes of somebody who not only
is being interrogated, but who falsely confessed because so many
that's like a huge contributing factor to wrongful convictions and
it's so prejudicial. People just do not understand how an
innocent person could be compelled to testify against themselves or

(10:27):
others if they're innocent. And so that was something that
I needed to get right. And I really feel like
we did get it right.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
You did, Oh yeah, like you guys tell me like
how well, I'm.

Speaker 6 (10:37):
Very familiar with the read technique and I'm recognize it immediately,
and I thought that it did. It was such a
good visual example of the confusion and the sleep deprivation
and everything that they were implanting in you. You know,
it was just a really really well done scene. I
think when we were going over the questions earlier, I
kind of implanted in my own brain, I think that

(10:59):
it's going to.

Speaker 3 (10:59):
Be episode that she answers with.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:02):
I think he's did a really good job, really good job.
Well thank you. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (11:06):
And but of course there were tons of other scenes
that were so you know, beautiful and personal, Like, have
you guys seen all of the episodes yet? Did you
guys get screener like all the all the ones that
are out, so you don't have the final two episodes?

Speaker 3 (11:19):
No, no, we're not home yet. There's those spoilers. Yeah, No,
how it ends. I won't tell you how it ends.

Speaker 5 (11:27):
I will say that I did co write the final
episode with that showrunner, and so I'm very excited for
people to see that. Obviously, Wow, And it's where a
lot of really personal, like the stakes of the story
really become clear.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
You know.

Speaker 5 (11:45):
There is that sort of promised confrontation between me and
my prosecutor that is teased in the first episode, but
there's also like a final confrontation between me and raphael A,
which is very beautiful. You know, like there's a lot
of really good it's good. It's a well written episode,
if I say so for myself.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
So stay tuned.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
I mean we can't write yeah, talking about like toking
pain and making that your purpose. Right, So here you are,
you get to tell the tale in the way that
you want to, twisted as it may be. But to
be on the other side of that is extremely major.
And yeah, body's been talking about this read technique for
a while and it's important stuff to sort of be
able to know what do you do in that situation?

Speaker 5 (12:28):
Yeah, well it's it's kind of a trap, is the problem,
and that unfortunately, when the police have decided that they
are going to get you to confess, there really is
no way out. The only way out is to be
quiet and to ask for an attorney. That's that's it,
and it's that's it. It's a trap, and it's designed
to be a trap, and that's what's And you're are in.

Speaker 6 (12:49):
Another country, you know, like what are your rights? And
you don't know everything, and like you know, at least
if it were here, you wouldn't know what to do me.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
Maybe I don't even know if you would, I would
not know what to do.

Speaker 5 (13:00):
No, I mean, and I was twenty, I had any
experience with any Yeah, you're young, much less the Italian.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
We're just a.

Speaker 6 (13:07):
Baby, your baby over there, you know, and it's horrifying.
And then you got the language Bayrier on top of it. Again,
you're deprived of sleep, you just want to go, you
just wanted to end, So at some point you're willing
to basically say anything just to get out of that room. Yeah, right,
And it's I just think that that scene in episode
two again, please watch it. It's The Twisted Tail of
Amanda Knox. It's on Hulu and it's really that scene.

(13:30):
Just there was another scene that is in episode one,
and it's when Meredith is discovered and the actress that
plays you, Grace, she the camera kind of zooms in
on her and everything goes quiet, and it's really chaotic.
It gives me the chills because it's kind of like
you kind of get the impression that everything is it's
finally coming down, like you realize what's happening, and it's
just it's a terrifying moment in the episode.

Speaker 3 (13:52):
And I thought that was really well done as well.
But great job, absolutely very impactful. And listen.

Speaker 4 (13:58):
Stick around, because coming up we get to continue our
conversation with Amanda Knox and we'll be discussing everything.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
From here to there.

Speaker 4 (14:07):
Keep it here at True Crime Tonight, we are talking
true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
And tonight we are very pleased to announce that we
have Amanda Knox with us to tell us her tale
of survival and resilience. Obviously, we've been talking a lot
about your dramatic series, The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox,
and we really encourage everyone to watch it because again,
you're the executive producer and you've been able to tell

(14:42):
your story your way, and it's really extraordinary because even
the nuanced performances and just the look of it, it
does set a stage and suddenly you're reminded you were
twenty years old.

Speaker 3 (14:54):
These are the.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Most harrowing scenarios a young woman could be in and
looking at you right now, I mean to be any
other side of it.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
Can we just say she has not aged? How is
that possible?

Speaker 2 (15:07):
All I want to do is something's going on and
care I do too.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
I want to know about your musing.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, I honestly like you have not aged, And it's
pretty extraordinary, and that's while under a.

Speaker 3 (15:17):
Ton of stress. So uh, I mean, when.

Speaker 5 (15:19):
You look closer, you would see quite a few straggly
gray hairs.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
That's okay, well, well turns yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
I always try to say that all of our wrinkles,
you know what, we earned them, hopefully with some smiles
at least. But no, it's really a joy to have
you and just to hear your perspective, because listen, we've
all followed your case, you know, for so so long,
and it really was one of the biggest cases probably
the twenty first century, right, I don't think I'm overstating that.
And as a young woman now years later, looking back

(15:50):
in hindsight, I'm sure you're pretty protective of the twenty
year old version of you. I mean, imagine just being
in this scenario for the very first time and not
speaking the language and experiencing something really traumatic and then
being wrongfully accused and a trial, and then suddenly the
headlines that come with that. No one's really prepared for
that to the extent that you had to face it

(16:12):
head on, and it's nothing shy of inspiring.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
Times. Ten, let's say that, you.

Speaker 5 (16:17):
Know, I can't take full credit for everything because I
certainly wasn't alone, Like my family absolutely came immediately to
my defense my friends as well, Like I was alone
in the sense that no one was there to hold
my hand in prison. That was certainly a really difficult
part of the experience, was being isolated from everyone.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
I loved that way, and especially as.

Speaker 5 (16:41):
The case kept going and then I was convicted and
facing you know, decades in prison, and I definitely had
a moment there where I was afraid that as hard
as my family was trying to save me and to
make me feel like I belonged with them, I was
on this path that was just taking me further and

(17:02):
further away from them, you know, my life, Like I
was stacking up life experiences that were.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
Alienating to them. They didn't know what it.

Speaker 5 (17:11):
Was like to be strip searched on a regular basis
and to be surrounded by traumatized people all day long,
and to be vilified viciously in.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
An international media.

Speaker 5 (17:24):
So like, yeah, in ways, I was very alone, but
I was never made to feel like some of the
other prisoners that I countered in prison, like a big
difference between me and them that which made me feel
like I was so profoundly lucky compared to them, Despite
being like the innocent person in a prison full of
mostly guilty people, I felt like I was profoundly lucky

(17:47):
compared to them because I was love like that I
at no point in my experience, and this is something
that I truly attribute my ability to survive. This is
the fact that from as long as I can remember,
my mom instilled in me this deep, deep knowledge that

(18:08):
I mattered and that I was love. And so even
when the whole world turned against me and absolutely was
communicating to me that the truth didn't matter and that
I didn't matter, I never lost sight of like that deep,
like visceral truth that I did matter and the truth
did matter. And so you know, I didn't give up

(18:30):
in the way that I saw a lot of people
around me who had lives of abuse and neglect and
poverty and exploitation, like the vast majority of the women
that I was imprisoned with were victims of crime before
they ever became criminals themselves, like, and they were by
and large forgotten by the people in their life, abandon betrayed.

(18:52):
And so I felt like that was something that really
became very clear to me after I was removed from
isolation and put into gen pop that there was a
big difference between me and the rest of my community
and that was the most important thing.

Speaker 4 (19:08):
That's so as harrowing as that is, that's such an
inspiring thing for people to sort of take in the
importance of having instilled in you that you are important,
that you matter, that all of the matter.

Speaker 5 (19:20):
Yeah, you know, people ask me now, like, what can
I tell my kid to like, you know, if bad
things happen to us all in life, what is the
biggest lesson that I can convey to my kids?

Speaker 3 (19:30):
What is the thing?

Speaker 5 (19:31):
And like, it's so simple. It's just that they matter,
that they matter.

Speaker 3 (19:36):
That's it.

Speaker 5 (19:36):
If your kid knows that they matter, they can survive anything.

Speaker 3 (19:40):
Because that's what got you through it all.

Speaker 6 (19:42):
That's what got me mattered, and the truth mattered, and
your story was important, the truth.

Speaker 5 (19:46):
But if you feel if you feel like deep down
you don't matter, well no, yeah, I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
I don't know if I'm allowed to sweat to.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, exactly, You've already paid your dues. Yeah, let it rip, baby,
let it rip.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
This is true.

Speaker 7 (20:03):
Crametonight on iHeartRadio, I'm body movin And I'm here with
Stephanieleidecker and Courtney Armstrong and we are so lucky enough
to be joined by Amanda Knox and she's talking about
her new scripted drama.

Speaker 6 (20:14):
It is on Hulu. It's called The Twisted Tail of
Amanda Knox and Amanda, We're just so happy that you're
here and we just really appreciate it. Courtney, you mentioned
that you wanted to talk about this villain hero situation.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
Did you want to?

Speaker 4 (20:26):
Yeah, I just I love that you said that earlier,
and it really comes across like there are nuances and
people that I began to I won't use the word hate,
but do really dislike watching it. Then I got to
see their perspective. So how important was that, you know,
as an executive producer just putting that together and deciding, okay,

(20:48):
we should do perspectives and here are the people whose
perspective we should do.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
What was that like? Because it's very effective.

Speaker 5 (20:54):
I mean, that was fundamental to the making of this show.
From the very very beginning. I was always saying, like,
I am not going to participate in the way that
these stories are typically told, which is again this very
black and white perspective of here's the villain, here's the victim,
here's the hero. Like, that's not what That's how my

(21:17):
story has been told wrong for so long, and I
think that it does a disservice to the truth.

Speaker 3 (21:22):
Which again, the truth matters.

Speaker 5 (21:24):
And I am not in the business of committing the
same kinds of mistakes that were committed towards me. So
as we approach the story and we recognize that mistakes
were made and that harm was done, we have to
give the benefit of the doubt to everyone involved. We
have to view these set of facts through a humanistic lens,

(21:45):
and that, like it was a radical choice that was
very difficult at times, Like one of those characters is
the person who murdered my roommate, right, And if I
had extra like when we are originally visioning telling this story,
I like had so many more episodes in my head
than what we actually had in real life, because like

(22:07):
you know how in the show we have an episode
where you see, like we give a little Ameilee history
of Amanda, we give a little Ameilee history of raphae La,
we give a little Ameile history to Minini. I originally
wanted there to be also an amele history of Meredith
and an Amele history of Rudy Gadey and oh.

Speaker 3 (22:27):
Yeah, perfect storm.

Speaker 5 (22:29):
Yeah, exactly, the perfect storm of these these people who
came together in a moment in their lives in this
like perfect crisis point. And like again, if I had
had more time in this show, I would have shown
like how you know Rudy Gaday the person who raped
and murdered my roommate, he was spiraling like he was

(22:51):
a young person who had been torn away from his
mother at a young age, then abandoned by his father,
had been you know, hopping around from Foster home to
Foster home, got into trouble, was breaking, you know, breaking
and entering, was stealing things, was spiraling, and then.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
He committed this crime.

Speaker 5 (23:09):
And one of the things that we do show in
the series is that this the crime could have been avoided.
Right like five days before Rudy Gidek committed this crime,
he was arrested for having broken and entered into a
different place, and he was in possession of stolen goods

(23:29):
and he was in possession of a knife five days
before this crime occurred. And if he had been I
don't know. To this day, I still do not understand
and there has never been a good answer out there
for why he was just released and not actually held
accountable to this crime. But like the consequences. Five days

(23:49):
later he broke into my house and murdered my roommate.
And none of this would have happened if something had
intervened in his life too.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
So you know, you say that you know grace, and
you took the words literally about it, even as always
I was literally just going to ask, like, as you
say that, I almost get a little like chilled, clem
the level of grace that's required to see you right now,
even speaking about the man who committed the murder that
you were accused of. Friendly reminder, twenty years old, living

(24:19):
in a New Land, having like the greatest you know,
Italian adventure and you know a love adventure and record scratch,
life got really real and you know, where do you
find the grace now so many years later to forgive
you know, not to spoil the ending, but we know
the prosecutor who really.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
Wanted you behind bars is somebody that you've really come
to terms with.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
And even this killer, you describe his backstory and his
origin story with compassion.

Speaker 5 (24:50):
Yeah, Well, I mean again, it goes back to the
fact that the truth matters, right, Like all of that
that I just told you about person who murdered my
roommate and then subsequently went on to blame me for it,
and you know, and now it's a trial for sexually
assaulting another person after he got out of prison. Like

(25:10):
this is clearly a very troubled person who had a
very troubled past. And a lot of people ask me
if I like set out to forgive my prosecutor or
to forgive, you know, the person who committed this crime.
And it wasn't about forgiveness for me. I didn't have
some spiritual awakening and I was like, I gotta forgive
these people, That wasn't it. I just wanted to understand why.

(25:35):
I wanted to understand why this happened. And understanding why
this happened from a very honest standpoint requires you to
come into contact with uncomfortable truths, unfortunate truths, and those
it's uncomfortable to realize that people who commit egregious harm
are also people, right, But it's true, and that's you.

(25:55):
Just Like for me, as somebody who cares about being
an effective person in the world world, I believe that
the only way that you can be effective.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
Is to acknowledge what is true.

Speaker 5 (26:05):
Like if I just in my brain wrote off both
of these two men as evil, I would approach them
and I would approach the world with a completely different mindset,
but it would be a mindset that I don't think
would be ultimately effective. I wouldn't be actually interacting with
the world as it is and with people as they are,
so instead I choose to acknowledge how they really are,

(26:26):
which is fragile people, and then decide.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
What to do. You're a really evolved human being. I
have to say, like you're saying, I wish I was.

Speaker 6 (26:35):
Just gonna say, oh my god, because like it's so
easy to hate and tell the story like from only
your perspective and say them you have soon yeah, and
them it's their fault and you know whatever. But you
really are an evolved person, right, Like you're telling all
sides of the story. It's just I'm very impressed, and
I'm very hard to impress.

Speaker 4 (26:55):
So like.

Speaker 5 (26:57):
I am, I know it's done, done, and yeah, body.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
Move and stamp of approval, yeah, underline, exclamation point, end
of story.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (27:07):
So yeah, because I just don't you guys think it's
just so much easier to tell only your side and
you know, say, you know I was a victim, right
I was, and just tell that story instead of telling
like a more nuanced.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
On Hulu, the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, and it
is really good and harrowing and emotional and checks all
of the boxes and scary. You know, we were talking
about it during the break. I think the idea of
being imprisoned, especially for some crime you didn't commit, and
feeling like no one's listening to you and you're getting buried,

(27:39):
and other people's shame and guilt and confusion, and you know,
there's a time probably where you just want to call
it because you must feel hopeless, but somehow you just
push through mentally. Any tricks or any takeaway from that
that we should be aware of.

Speaker 5 (27:55):
Yeah, yeah, that's a big takeaway from the series. And
you'll see more of this also in the next two
episodes that come out, because they show me out of prison,
but still very much like you said, like buried beneath
this story, buried beneath the stigma's accusation defined by an
ordeal that I ultimately didn't have any agency, and I

(28:18):
didn't do anything right. But in terms of like the
prison of it all, like even the most recent episode,
it was a turning point for me, Like there was
this existential crisis that I experienced after I received the
verdict where it was like, oh my god, I'm not
like in this state of limbo where I'm fighting to
get my life back. This is my life and I

(28:40):
know it's not about me going home. Prison is my home.
So given that, fah, what do I do with that?

Speaker 3 (28:48):
Now?

Speaker 8 (28:49):
What?

Speaker 3 (28:49):
Yeh?

Speaker 5 (28:49):
And it was the first step of this like long
process of acceptance. That was something that I instinctively rebelled
against because you know, here I am living a life
that isn't fair. But you know, tough reality check, none
of us are living lives that are fair. Like universal
message is, we're all living lives that are not fair.

(29:12):
There are all of us had elements of our lives
that we do not have any control over. And so
now what like just those things that are there that
are real that you have to contend with. Being in
denial of them does not make you an effective agent
in your own lives. So if you want to have
some kind of fulfilling purpose in your life, you have

(29:33):
to start by accepting the premises, like the premises that
you can't avoid. And for me, in that moment of conviction,
it was I'm going to spend at least another several years,
if not decades in prison.

Speaker 3 (29:45):
So what do I do?

Speaker 5 (29:47):
Well, I start looking around me and notice that there
is opportunity even here. Here is a place where, like
I said in an earlier segment, I'm actually one of
the lucky ones. Like not only am I love, but
I am healthy, and I'm educated, and I can read

(30:08):
and write. A lot of the people around me could
not read or write. I can speak Italian and English.
At this point, a lot of the people that I
was in prisoned with were foreigners and could not speak Italian.
And so they call it a hustle in prison. But
it's like a purpose. Like I had a job. It
was not an official job. I was not paid to
do this job. But I was the translator. I was

(30:32):
the scribe. I help people read their court documents. I
helped them write letters to their family, I helped them
communicate their ailments to the doctors. It was something that
I could do, and so I did it, and it
gave you know, be careful what you wish for. I
did go to Italy to become a translator, and like, whoops,
here I was just a translator, and you know, like

(30:54):
it did it make up for the fact that I
was in prison for something I didn't do, No, of course,
but it certainly wasn't just laying in bed crying my
eyes out every day. Like it was something that gave
me purpose. And then once you gain purpose, once you
gain momentum in your life, you can it's a mental shift,

(31:15):
and I think that was something that I had to
relearn once I got out of prison. And you know,
I don't again don't want to spoil alert anything, but
the ultimate sort of takeaways of my story, there are
a number of them, but one of them is that
to be an effective person in your own life, you
have to accept the premises, like these are the conditions
of your life. Now what now do something with them.

(31:37):
You can't change them, you can't change the past, you
can't change who you are. You can't get into other
people's minds and make them think different things. So given
all of that, what can you do? Don't waste your
time obsessing about what you can't do.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
I just wanted to remind our listeners about your story
if it's okay, very quickly sure.

Speaker 6 (31:57):
In two thousand and seven, Amanda Knoxy was a college
in Italy when her roommate Meredith Pircher was murdered. Knox
and her boyfriend were accused, launching years of sensational headlines
and courtroom battles. She was convicted, acquitted, and reconvicted before
Italy's highest court finally cleared her in twenty fifteen. After
nearly four years behind bars, she returned home and now

(32:19):
she speaks out about justice, wrongful convictions, hope, and the
power of media spins. So please continue, Amanda, I did
not want to interrupt you. Please continue.

Speaker 5 (32:28):
Oh yeah, yeah, no, I just wanted to say that
the other big takeaway that I hope people get from
watching the show is, you know, arriving at that universal
truth of feeling like they can regain agency in their
own lives in this way, but also the power of
human connection. Like one of the biggest stories of this
series and of my life, I feel like is my

(32:49):
attempt to communicate myself to the man who accused me
of a horrific crime and who felt justified in throwing
me in prison and asking me to stay there for
the right of my life? How do I communicate with
this person? And I really do feel like in a way,
we were set up to not be able to communicate
with each other because the justice system is so adversarial.

(33:12):
And my approach then became, Well, if I am in
a condition that is adversarial, of course we're not going
to communicate with each other. He's going to dig in
his heels. I'm going to stand up for myself, and
no communication, no understanding, is going to happen. So what
if I tried. I don't like put aside or pretend
that the bad thing didn't happen, But what if it

(33:34):
is possible to find common ground even with your worst adversary,
Like what could happen? And like, I'm a curious enough
person that I was driven, I was compelled to be like,
what will happen? I know what's going to happen. If
I don't, I know what's going to happen. If I
just hold it against him forever, nothing's going to happen.

(33:55):
So what if I do the opposite? What if I
try to find common ground? What if I try to
seek an ally in my adversary? What would happen. Then
maybe I fail, but maybe I don't. And that's what
the series also is about, which it was a cool
story for these days and ages.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
I'll say, I was just gonna say that's time late,
especially right now.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
It's a real universal truth.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
The world changes, you change with it, period, and everyone's evolving.

Speaker 5 (34:26):
Everyone's a process.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
Yeah, what Amanda in all of this?

Speaker 4 (34:31):
And really your sort of empathy And also I love
how you talked about the translating and helping the women
that you were with, because it didn't seem like you
had a lot of help.

Speaker 5 (34:43):
There was no I did not have any help. I
had to teach myself Italian with Harry Potter and a dictionary.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Oh my goodness. Yeah, well well done.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
If I could say.

Speaker 5 (34:55):
To the fact that no one was speaking English and
it's had to figure it out.

Speaker 4 (35:01):
Kind of when did you decide I'm going to become
an advocate?

Speaker 3 (35:05):
Like what was there a point?

Speaker 5 (35:07):
You know, that's a really fun question because that was
not what I was intending when I got out of prison.
I really just wanted to go back to being an
anonymous college student, and I first had to come into
the realization that that was not possible for me because
I was continuing to be stalked by media, and you know,
people recognized me constantly. I couldn't make friends, you know,

(35:29):
like people were texting about me in class and posting
pictures of me, and so I couldn't just go back
to being an anonymous person. I spent a lot of
time feeling really isolated and exiled, like here I am
in the free world, but I don't belong anywhere. I
don't belong to anyone, and I was really struggling. And
it wasn't until my mom forcibly took me to something

(35:52):
called the Innocence Network Conference, which is an annual gathering
of innocence projects throughout the world that here in the
United States, and I met other wrongly convicted people, and
I just got a glimpse, a glimpse of how my
story and what I went through played a role in
this much bigger story about justice and about our institutions.

(36:17):
And you know, I didn't know anything, Like I was
not a true crime fanatic before all of this happened
to me, So I knew nothing. I knew absolutely nothing
about the criminal justice system. And then I met person
after person after person who had gone who had been
interrogated and also confessed people who had eyewitnesses point out,

(36:38):
or people have been tortured by the police, like people
who had spent decades longer in prison than I had,
and here in the United States. And I realized that
this was a much more pervasive problem than I realized,
and that.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
How could nobody know about this? How could I grow
up entirely oblivious to this fact? Right?

Speaker 5 (37:01):
And I realized that I was in this really unique position,
like as much as I had to deal with global vilification,
I was recognized as a person who had gone through
the justice system, and over time, more and more people
were recognizing that I was actually innocent, and I was
proof of what had been happening all along. You know,

(37:23):
I didn't look like the vast majority of people get
wrongly convicted. Most people are men, Most people are men
of minorities, Most people are men who are poor.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
And I was not like that. I was a middle.

Speaker 5 (37:34):
Class, college educated white girl from the suburbs, and it
happened to me, And so in a way, I was
like proof that there was something wrong with the system exactly.
And it wasn't just an Italian problem. This was a
global problem. And the ways that I was wrongly convicted

(37:55):
are ways that we wrongly convict people here in the
United States. And once that became clear to me, I
was like, I have to say something. And a lot
of people ask me, like, why don't you become a
lawyer or whatever, and it's like I could go to
the rest of my life without ever going into a courtroom.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
Ember again, that's that.

Speaker 5 (38:13):
But I am a writer and I am a storyteller,
and this is my skill set, and so I can
take what I know now about what happened to me
and what happened to other people, and I can share
it with an audience who wouldn't otherwise think that any
of this would be relevant to them. And that's really
important to me, and it's and it's made it's made

(38:33):
me feel purposeful all over again.

Speaker 3 (38:36):
I feel like I'm a translator all over again.

Speaker 5 (38:38):
Right, I'm not translating language, I'm translating experience, it feels like.

Speaker 4 (38:45):
But it's so great too. I mean, just the awareness,
because like you said, how do you not know about this?
None of us do. People There isn't enough awareness. And
also just the connection that you're talking about of you know,
when you went to that day that your mom brought
you to the conference and met other people.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
It's unbelievable. It's almost like kis men.

Speaker 6 (39:05):
Yeah, for sure, it's meant to be because now you're right,
you're translating your experience to regular people who are turning
on their TV to watch a television show, and maybe
they're going to be open, their eyes will be open.
Like like you said, this can happen to anyone, you know,
even here in the United States, and in fact a
lot of the times here in the United States. So
kudos to you. Congratulations on that. That's fabulous. Thanks, you're welcome.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
I know we're reading low on time, so yeah, mean's
going to take us out. But this is there one
tip we all want to know. What's the one thing
to anybody who wants to go to a different country
as a young person to explore the world.

Speaker 3 (39:38):
I know where your embassy is. What is the I lay?

Speaker 5 (39:44):
So here's the thing like to the state, it haunts me.
How you know, Meredith did everything right right, Like she
never went out alone at night, She called her parents
every single day, and even so this happened to her.
That isn't to say that you shouldn't go study abroad
like everyone of course study abroad like it's a beautiful
experience and it's very life affirming. But at the same time,

(40:05):
you should know that you are vulnerable, just like we
all are in the world. And so when something feels off,
when you don't feel safe, don't ignore that feeling, like
always asking and to ask for help and trust your
gut and hope for the best.

Speaker 4 (40:22):
Well, that's advice everyone can use in pretty much every
aspect of life. Amanda, we thank you so so much
for joining us tonight. It is such a great pleasure
and honor and we've been so excited everyone. Amanda is
the executive producer of The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
It is streaming now on Hulu. Watch it. You will
love it.

Speaker 4 (40:42):
It's almost a guarantee. Amanda is also the host of
the Hard Knocks podcast and the author of Free My
Search for Meaning. So one more thank you for your advice, h.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
Stick around true grand tonight.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeart Radio. Man,
we are talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie
Leidecker and I head of KT Studios where we make
true crime podcasts and documentaries, and I get to be
here with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven And if you're
not feeling inspired, then come on, what more do you need?
It's so telling, you know, again, Amanda Knox here to

(41:31):
confirm that extraordinary humans often are built from really tough times,
and boy does she walk the talk.

Speaker 6 (41:39):
Yeah, and her message could not come at a better time,
Like the whole thing about empathy and the boundaries you
can still you know, have empathy for people and hear
them out like this is what we need to hear
right now in my opinion, Like it's just so timely.
And you know, I am inspired one hundred million percent, no,
no bs, I am.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
I feel good.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
It's so interest soon you say that, because yeah, at
this time, more than ever. I love also said that, like,
you know, both things can be We talk about this
a lot. Both things can be true, Like you can
be mad about something or you've been victimized by something,
and at the same time, parallel, you're still able to
put yourself in somebody else's shoes and try to imagine

(42:20):
their perspective as a human.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
Yeah. I mean that's that's the real deal, geez, the
real deal.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
Well is well, thank you again, Amanda Knox for joining
us tonight. If you haven't watched her Hulu series, The
Twisted Tail of Amanda Knox, please do what a great
setup you just got and listen.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
We still have like a half a night left of seat.

Speaker 2 (42:41):
Tadline, so come on, you know, please call us eight a'
eight three one crime if you want to join the
conversation or leave us a talk back. We love to
get those, or you can always hit us up in
our socials at True Crime Tonight's show on Instagram and Facebook,
or at True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 3 (42:58):
I think I confuse those cares right, too many.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
Too many, too many, So listen, let's get back to
the basics here. A little bro Coburger update, no Frank Coburger. Well,
you know, there's not really a big update. It's just
that the investigation. So remember the video that came out
of him in prison, of course, yes, of course, washing
like the walking and.

Speaker 6 (43:20):
Yeah, looking at the TV in that little cage and
he's just kind of an awkward and there's we kind
of realized it was like in this medical housing unit
prior to him getting his assignment in the J block
where he's at now with Chad Daboll. You know and everything. Well,
they're still investigating. They're still investigating how this video made
it out, and there's been no updates. And that's the update.

(43:42):
There's no updates.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
It's a very big seale to have sort of inside
from prison video being leaked, right, it does break a
lot of laws, and it also lends itself to a
lack of security, and and and so I'm surprised there
hasn't been more more done in that category.

Speaker 6 (43:59):
The Itea Department of Corrections, the officials they have confirmed
it's authentic, so it's definitely from that prison, because remember
initially we didn't know if it was like from Pennsylvania
or if it was you know, in Moscow or Ada
County jail. Very quickly though, those county jails and whatnot
said oh, it's not us, it's not us, that's not
our prison, that's not our jail. So the Idaho Department

(44:20):
of Correction officials have confirmed that it's authentic and it's
from their prison. But they have dismissed a speculation that
it might be fake or you know, AI generated. Remember
the speculation, Oh it's probably AI, it's probably I know
it's real, But there's no update.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
That's that's yep, well, but it does.

Speaker 4 (44:36):
It harkened back to it's going to be Amanda Knox
all night long for me anyway, But I know to
what happened. And this isn't spoiler because it's been out,
But in the scripted series, you see when Amanda and
her then boyfriend are in prison and there's people from
all ends who are trying to get any frum of

(44:57):
information or picture or video and just going to get
notoriety and putting it out. So with someone like Brian Colberger,
you could imagine that there's many people there who want
any kind of information on him to share with the world.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
And they probably get paid top dollar to do so, right,
so you can sell that footage pretty quickly, I say, yuck.
I'm still kind of curious though about the weird red
hands that he had. And by the way, if you're
just joining us, we're talking about Brian Coburger.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
He is now serving time.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Forever till his end of days behind bars forever for
the murder of four incredible college students in Idaho.

Speaker 3 (45:36):
He has accepted guilt and.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
His hands in this particular video are very red and
we assume it's from excessive hand washing because he does
have a bit of an OCD thing. So hopefully you know,
Brian Coburger is still having a tough time getting along
with others because the last we heard, he was getting
tons of stuff.

Speaker 6 (45:57):
Right, So listen, can we take a moment and just
kind of make a Brian goerger a little bit?

Speaker 3 (46:01):
Are you guys okay with that?

Speaker 2 (46:02):
I don't find anything about him that's fun.

Speaker 4 (46:05):
I'm still feeling pious from the presence of amand an ox,
and I'm actually.

Speaker 3 (46:08):
Not even being facetious.

Speaker 4 (46:10):
I'm like filled with goodwill towards humanity and keeping boundaries.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
You can do it both that she said. But here's
a story.

Speaker 4 (46:18):
Yeah, yeah, there was a man who was wrongfully imprisoned
for twenty seven years. His name is Brian Hooper Senior,
and he was exonerated and he has been freed. So
it happened for him after a very long time. So
a key witness against him spent all this time racked

(46:38):
with guilt and ultimately confessed to committing this murder that
happened in nineteen ninety eight. A woman named Anne Prasniak
was murdered. She was seventy seven years old, and Brian
Hooper Senior, who is now innocent and walking free, and
has been innocent the whole time he was in prison

(46:58):
based on incentivized testimony of several people, including Sheilaka Young
and for other witnesses, and despite the absence of any
physical evidence directly linking him to the murder. Since he
was innocent, he was incarcerated for two and a half decades.
But again, oh god, yeah, but he walks free.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
Well, this is kind of in the same vein run.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah, I mean, now it makes sense at Courtney didn't
want to talk about Brian Colberger. Yeah, no, I do
not want to talk about Brian Coberger for one second time.

Speaker 3 (47:33):
I ten years by Courtney Armstrong.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
Fair enough, Okay, it all tracks now makes total sense
by the way I would be I don't.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
Know that I would.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
Be cool twenty five years. You stolen my life for
a crime I did not commit. Prison is no fun, horrible,
harrowing circumstances. And then to walk free when you've lost
loved ones, you've lost your job, you didn't have opportunities.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
I mean, I see people who come out.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
And they are so beautifully empathetic and compassionate and fined forgiveness.
And it is jaw dropping, and I would hope that
I am capable of that, but I don't know. Putting
myself in there choos it would be hard.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
It would be hard for me. But I have to say.

Speaker 4 (48:18):
The woman I mentioned, or the person I mentioned rather,
Sheilaki Young. They were serving time in Georgia and wrote
a spontaneous handwritten confession and admitted that she alone was
the one who killed this woman and thusly framed Hooper.
So yeah, so after all this time, she said she
was soul sick. She expressed really deep remorse, and she

(48:42):
gave this confession to law enforcement, to a chaplain, and
to family in recorded calls. So something changed in her
or she wanted to unsick her soul, which you know,
I think we've all done things not to this benefit,
but you just feel sick. I've never heard that expression before.

(49:02):
Did I wonder did they just take that at face value?
I wonder, like, I don't know if we had this
information or not, but or was there evidence to go
along with that? Well what happened because the evidence it
was based on really five people saying he did it.
There was nothing physical. So since there was no benefit
for this woman to gain. Her confession was deemed credible,

(49:23):
it was deemed consistent, and both the prosecutors and of
course Hooper's defense, they agreed it proved his innocence, and
a judge vacated the conviction. He said it was false
evidence that misled the jury, and he was released the next.

Speaker 3 (49:39):
Day, the next day, the next day, he.

Speaker 4 (49:41):
Was released the next day, and right now guess where
he is. He is living with his children in the
Twin Cities. He is working on rebuilding his life.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
So you know, we also, I mean again, I'm always
quoting Shawshank redemption for some reason.

Speaker 3 (49:59):
I don't know why, but you know, somehow for I
really did change my data. It is a good one.
It's important. It's a good one.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Hard one, right, but I would imagine that transition after
prison after all of those years is a really tough
one too. So lucky he had kids to go back
to and open arms. You know, She's so right, Amanda
Knox again saying that just knowing that somebody thinks that
you matter, and that you matter to someone that was
so important.

Speaker 6 (50:27):
And she's right, Like the people that she was in
prison with, they felt maybe they didn't matter. That came
maybe from you know, abuse or addiction or you know,
a strange family and but not her right, and so
she had this strength that was instilled in her from
her mother growing up and just provided with love. And oftentimes,
you know, we I do, at least, you know, get

(50:49):
in my feels a little bit and have little pity parties.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
I mean, doesn't good one Like yeah, I am.

Speaker 6 (50:54):
A pity party queen. Okay, Like yeah, poor me, you
know you or you know me? And just hearing her
say that, just my mom loved me like so much,
and I just that meant a lot to me. I
don't know, it just made me feel a certain type
of way.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
And we should all be mindful of that even at
this time, Like yeah, like give somebody that one weird
hug or just remind people that they matter. And again,
anyone listening you matter to us.

Speaker 8 (51:21):
Know that.

Speaker 4 (51:22):
Really, I honestly, I'm going to check in and see
if I actually do this and take this moment of inspiration.
But you know, there is a woman who very kindly
makes my obscenely huge iced coffee when I go to
get it at the store, and she's so nice and
you know, we chat.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
I just wanted to do it all day. I just
want to be literally all day. She made hours straight.
I should tell this person so she can just hear it. Listen.
It don matter to me to see people every day.

Speaker 4 (51:51):
Yeah, right, So if you have anyone you look forward
to seeing, let us know who they are.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
Give a shout out.

Speaker 4 (51:56):
We're at your crimbs tonight eighty eight three one crime.
We'd love to hear inspiring stories, crime stories, whatever you got.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
And Stephanie, yes, you know it made me think even
as she was talking, and of course I didn't want
to say it then. But who's your emergency contact number?
When you're asked? You have one phone call and you
don't have to say it here unless you want to.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
But like that's a big piece of it too, Like.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
Even knowing that you have somebody that will pick up
the phone, come hell or high water, in the darkens
of circumstances, who will stand behind you no matter what.

Speaker 6 (52:28):
If you have one person and that will tell you
that for you can't tell you what that means honestly.
I mean, I know that sounds silly, but as somebody
who's chronically alone, it does mean a lot. I do
have an emergency contact. She means the world to me,
and just to have her in my phone is my ice.
You know, my es emergency. It means a lot, and
she knows she is. She's listening.

Speaker 4 (52:49):
Well, I will, actually, I will say mine. It's Amy Lynn,
my best friend since the very first day of moving
into college. No two people have been more different on
this planet, and no two people are more aligned. And
I took a picture when we had the fires in
Los Angeles. It was very scary. I was incredibly lucky.
I just didn't know that the story was going to

(53:10):
play out that way. And I just I wrote down
because none of us remember phone numbers anymore. And I
just wrote down on a stick on a sticky that's
still in my wallet.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
My mother, my in law, and Amy Lynn. So that's
God bless Amy Lynn. You know that's it.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
Your mother would bail you out of just about anything sured.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
But it's a good point.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
By the way, another little practical piece of takeaway is
your right Courtney Armstrong. Nobody knows their numbers of anybody,
and you should memorize your emergency contact number or a
couple of your buds because imagine being in a heroin
situation and you're like I don't have access to a phone.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
You get one phone call and you have no idea
what the digits are.

Speaker 9 (53:51):
Yeah, that's my big concern for me. I don't I
use my cell phone for everything, and I don't know
numbers by memory anymore. So that's a good tip for
for everyone to have and like to have one relative
that I have as my emergency contact. But my concern
is they never seem to pick up when I call, so.

Speaker 3 (54:10):
A little bit.

Speaker 6 (54:11):
Yeah, well it would be you calling a hospital or jail,
God forbid, you know.

Speaker 2 (54:15):
Nobody ever picks up and those that's like, oh, straight
to voicemail.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
Yeah, exactly. That's my concern. I think I might have
to rethink the people I have right now.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
Yeah, Stephanie, do you have someone you have? Lovely people?
Listen you you get back what you put in. And
Stephanie Ledecker is definitely proof of that because she has
really really great, freaking people in her life. I can
say that plainly, but yeah, does it without even saying
the name was?

Speaker 2 (54:40):
Of course, No, it's in my mom because she sort
of will she will always answer and then I and yeah,
she will listen. I one time went to Paris by
myself and didn't tell anybody I was going. And when
I showed up in my hotel room, the phone was
ringing in hand to it, hand to god, it.

Speaker 3 (54:57):
Was my mother. Wow, how does so? That's why she's
my emergency contact.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
And at least she could get me to my brothers
who would then come in and save the day. But
I do have a very small circle, but they're diehard.

Speaker 9 (55:10):
Wo that nice?

Speaker 3 (55:14):
May we all be so lucky? Listen, stay with us.

Speaker 4 (55:17):
Coming up, we have Oh we have a really shocking
pattern emerging in Colorado funeral homes. Oh boy, yeah, this
is quite a story. Keep it here True Crime Tonight
and give us a call eighty to eighty three one crime.

Speaker 3 (55:31):
We want to talk to you.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here of course,
with Courtney Armstrong and body move in and Boddy. You
have breaking news happening right now. What's going on, very breaking,
So get this okay, Travis Decker. Remember he is the
man that is accused of his three young daughters back
in June, and then he's been evading law enforcement since. Well,

(56:06):
there's breaking news human remains believed to be him have
been found.

Speaker 6 (56:10):
The quote is positive. Identification has not yet been confirmed.
Preliminary findings suggest the remains belong to Dravistecker. The Sheriff's
office said, So, we're going to keep following this and
hopefully we'll get some confirmation hopefully it is him, and
hopefully maybe they'll get some answers with this.

Speaker 3 (56:26):
But I don't know, but yeah, and just.

Speaker 4 (56:28):
End, I mean this man hunt and the many multiple
people and agencies that have been working oh tirelessly.

Speaker 3 (56:37):
Yeah, So hopefully.

Speaker 6 (56:39):
We're going to keep following this and hopefully maybe we'll
have an update, you know, later in the show. I'm
not sure, but from what I understand though, we have
our associate producer Ava on the line. Yes, she's going
to be giving us an update on the case that
she's been following.

Speaker 10 (56:52):
Ava.

Speaker 3 (56:52):
Are you there?

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Yeah, Hi, guys, listen, Ava Kaplan keeps us all in
line during the days. We're keeping her up relate because
she's on the early shift. So Ava tell us everything.

Speaker 3 (57:05):
Hi, guys.

Speaker 8 (57:06):
Well, first of all, going after Amanda Knox as yeah,
is literally like being at the talent show and like
Yanse is in front of me, and then I go
and I'm doing like my magic trick or something.

Speaker 6 (57:19):
Listen, you are blue ivy Okay, you are that Ava kaplan.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
You come out there in the pants and you give
it a good blue ivy stress.

Speaker 8 (57:30):
Okay, thank you, buddy. That means a lot to me.
I mean, speaking of human remains, there is a crazy
story coming out of Colorado that I want to talk
to you guys about. Tell right, Okay, So get this,
not one, but two Colorado's funeral homes have been at
the center of corpse abuse scandals in the past several years.

(57:50):
And in one of them. So there's a funeral home
called quote return to Nature funeral home. This is in
a town of Colorado called Penrods. I know, right, hate it.
Two hundred decomposing bodies were discovered just like on the
ground this one funeral home.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
What isn't that crazy? Do you mean like return to Nature?
That's not actually so surprising?

Speaker 2 (58:13):
Well, literally, hold up, Ava, So it's a funeral home.
At a funeral home, obviously you have the bodies and
then you bury the bodies or you exhume the you
cremate the body. They weren't doing that.

Speaker 8 (58:26):
They weren't doing that and instead of cremating the bodies
like the family thought, they were just kind of like
burying them around the property. And instead of giving the
family their ashes, they were giving them what authorities believe
was actually just dry cement. And oh, I know, it's crazy,
and family started kind of being suspicious because imagine you're

(58:49):
brinkling your father's ashes in the pond that's where you
grow up, and instead of the kind of just like scattering,
they start to harden. Well, apparently human remains are not
supposed to harden, but something like dry cement does, so
they were kind of reacting with water and with the
elements and in the way that ashes should. So that

(59:09):
was one major red flag. And another one was obviously
the massive smell, which is what eventually triggered the search
warrant that searched the property and found that there were
these hundreds of bodies on the property.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
Terrible family, So sick. What a bunch of sickos? Again,
that is not okay.

Speaker 8 (59:27):
Wod it's so beyond sick, and it would be crazy
if it was just one situation. But okay, that's the
most extreme one. Almost two hundred bodies. This is in
twenty twenty three, but literally just this year twenty twenty five,
another one. Authorities were like doing an inspection of another
funeral home in Colorado twenty decomposing bodies just behind a
secret door in a funeral home they found, and some

(59:51):
of them the funeral home director admitted he has been
storing in there for almost fifteen years.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Wow, Okay, why why is he's storing the bodies in
the secret room for fifteen years?

Speaker 8 (01:00:03):
That's a million dollar question. My understanding of first of all,
why this is happening only in Colorado or maybe more
in Colorado, is they have all these loopholes. Every state
is supposed to have regulations. I looked into it. I
learned that in Colorado you don't need to have any
sort of license or qualifications to run a funeral home.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
You just have Tom are you kidding me? That'd serious.

Speaker 8 (01:00:24):
So you can just be like, Okay, I'm opening my
funeral home now, no degree, no course, you can just
do it. And because of all these scandals, it's starting
to change and they're starting to kind of ramp up
because apparently this is like a widespread pattern where people
are opening up funeral homes and then just storing the
bodies and then giving people fake ashes.

Speaker 3 (01:00:43):
And by the way, this is a very expensive process.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
If anybody's had to lay someone to rest, it is
really expensive. It's costly, it's emotional. You're at such a
vulnerable time, so you go to a funeral home, probably
for the first time in crisis, right when you're completely grieving,
and yeah, ticket, there's like prices everywhere, and you're you know,
you don't want your loved one not to have everything

(01:01:07):
so chick ching. You know, it's a real process. The
fact that they're taking advantage of mourning human is so
next level that I can't even imagine.

Speaker 8 (01:01:18):
Yeah, and there's two more cases, just real quick. Similar
also in Colorado, also in the past five years. One
twenty twenty two Brand Junction, Colorado owners were convicted of
selling body parts and then giving cimestick ashes. And then
in another case in suburban Denver, a woman's body was
found in the back of a heart where the funeral

(01:01:39):
home had left it for over a year. And then
in the same funeral home director's house, thirty sets of
cremated remains were found dashed just throughout his house.

Speaker 4 (01:01:50):
This is insane, eva, it is so everyone we're all
like gods back puzzled.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
Any what a weird thing to do too?

Speaker 4 (01:02:01):
And how do you not think through It's like, I'm
going to open a funeral home. Isn't the next thought?
What am I actually going to do with these bodies
that will be arriving at my door? I mean, the answer, Colorado,
the answer isn't go chill it don't chill in my
backyard where it is not temperature controlled.

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):
Oh my, I have a question for the room though.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
So again, so they're taking the bodies and then they're
giving fake ashes. So the understanding from the families are
that their bodies are being cremated, not buried, because if
they were being buried, they would probably witness that process.
Why it's like it seems like it why keep the bodies?

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
It's really easier to Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:02:43):
I think that maybe it's an expensive process because they're
like supposed to be sending out these bodies to be cremated,
and they're giving like fake certifications of like I'm sending
them out to be cremated. So maybe they just don't
want to pay for the process, so they're just taking
these poor people's money and then just putting their bodies
in a secret door and then giving them cement and

(01:03:04):
making a buck.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
That's my guess. But I don't know what a lame moved.
I mean, Amanda Knox would not stand for that. No,
she wouldn't.

Speaker 6 (01:03:11):
I When my mom passed, you know, her wish was
to be cremated, and I can't tell you how comforting
it was to me when I was able to go
get her pick up her ashes and the urn and
all that you know in those certificate and everything I needed,
and it still sits right next to me over here,
like literally on my desk, and like, I just cannot
imagine these poor families who think that, you know what

(01:03:34):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:03:34):
Like crying to concrete. I confessing to concrete.

Speaker 6 (01:03:38):
I used some of my mom's ashes in this tattoo.
It's in the emerald on my arm that's her burstone,
and they use some of her ashes in the ink. Listen,
I'm just saying, I can't tell you that the amount
of peace that that gave me, it's like it's like
a healing thing, right like, because I don't have a
headstone to go to, so I just kind of look
at my emerald on my tattoo and you know I

(01:03:59):
that's my mom. You know these people, they're going to
be prosecuted. I would imagine and hope you spend a
lot of time in jail. I mean, this is horrible.

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
This is actually really interesting.

Speaker 8 (01:04:09):
It speaks exactly what you're saying, because these families are
so mad that for a judge who was in charge
of prosecuting the case where it was the almost two
hundred bodies, has rejected a plea deal from the guy
who was giving it good and he said that it
was the first time, like as a judge that he's
ever rejected a plea deal because the families worth like
this is unacceptable. But like, and it's two hundred people,

(01:04:32):
so you can imagine the sheer volume of family members
who've been Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
My god, it's beyond it's enraging.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
I feel enraged right now, honestly, Like, let me add them.
That's just like again, kicking somebody at their lowest time
when it's their most difficult moment.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
That, yeah, let them let them.

Speaker 8 (01:04:51):
It's crazy. So this is the one in the two
hundred bodies. His name is John Halford and and his
wife they own this place together. And a jury trial
for John Halford is scheduled for February ninth of twenty
twenty six, So.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
We'll put that on the calendar.

Speaker 8 (01:05:06):
We'll put that on the calendar because it's expected to
last a month or longer.

Speaker 11 (01:05:11):
Because it's the sheer volume.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
God, it is crazy.

Speaker 8 (01:05:15):
A month or longer.

Speaker 3 (01:05:16):
I just want to like, eat up Aby. How great
is She's like, get this? This is what we hear
in the day. You get this.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
It's crazy. And it, by the way, it always is.
It actually always tracks.

Speaker 8 (01:05:30):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
When you say that, I like I lean in and
I sit up because you know what it's going to
be a lot of crazy, really crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:05:36):
Yes, that's you did it again, kid, you did it again.
Well done, well done.

Speaker 8 (01:05:42):
I mean hopefully there's a change. I've actually looked it
up and in twenty twenty six, twenty seven, a whole
new slew of regulations is coming to Colorado because, as
you can see, in the past five years has done
like multiple crazy scandals.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
That's yeah, get us your soul felt yeah, with the
great Courtney Armstrong sick in the.

Speaker 4 (01:06:02):
Soul seriously, and the trial honestly, I actually had just
flashed to it and that would be like I hope
hell for these people to watch the parade of two
hundred family members say this is how you impacted my
life and what you did to my mother, sister, father,
and boyfriend uncle.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
Can I have a request? Can we go back after
this soul secting story, back to the Brian Coburger pictures,
so body and I can have a giggle about them.

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
Like, can we just lighten the vibe because that is yeah, yeah,
like these pictures. Have you guys seen these selfies?

Speaker 6 (01:06:41):
You guys when I was on vacation, these selfies are
released right, so I didn't get a chance to gossip
about them. And I've been back a week now. This
is my fourth day back or no fifth day back.
This is our Friday.

Speaker 3 (01:06:51):
I forgot about it Friday.

Speaker 6 (01:06:52):
And I finally I want to make fun of him.
I've been dying to make fun of him over these pictures.
Can we take him minute?

Speaker 4 (01:06:58):
Yes? And I think actually that even audience members were
prepared because really have a talk back.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
Taha is motioning wildly about so what is he raising
his hands over just on tire? What just happened you?

Speaker 9 (01:07:14):
No, I just wouldn't let you know that a lot
of people have been asking as a fact that we
got to talk back, so I was gonna.

Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
I didn't know everyone, let's listen to that one. Let's
do it. Oh shoot.

Speaker 10 (01:07:24):
In my opinion, I feel like Bryan's looks the selfie
to try and show that he lives in active lifestyle
and to also get authorities to possibly not look his
way when it comes to the case.

Speaker 6 (01:07:34):
Yes, So I think there's two categories of selfies, right,
there's pre murder selfies and post murder selfies. Yeah, right,
and the pre murder selfies our talkback is right, like
they're all of him hiking, trying on different clothes. There's
you know that one that we've already seen of him
kind of taking a picture of his little rear end
in the mirror well and holding up pictures of his

(01:07:59):
the handwriting, says Brian C. Coberger August seventeenth, with that code. Well,
apparently that's something for class, some sort of verification for
class uploads. But a majority of them are of him hiking,
and to me, he's it's almost like he's trying to
look normal.

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
It sounds like he's trying to get his hinge profile
in order.

Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
Well, yeah, I thought I was just the same photos
for a dating app.

Speaker 6 (01:08:25):
Yesicly, it looks very much like he's taking these selfies
for a dating app. Like now, if you guys go
on a dating app, go look, they all look like this. Well,
and I don't look like bran Coberger, but they're posed
like this.

Speaker 3 (01:08:36):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:08:36):
It's almost like he's kind of getting ready to maybe
go and create some kind of profile.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
You know, it is very interesting. We have to a
shout out, yeah, it's so scary.

Speaker 6 (01:08:47):
And then there's the post murder selfies, and of course
the first one we've seen a lot, but now we
have it in very clear detail of him the day
on November thirteenth of twenty twenty two, the thumbs up shower,
the one in front of the shower. It's clear at
day and you can clearly see this band aid on
his finger. You can clearly see it. I mean, it's

(01:09:08):
the clarity on these pictures are phenomenal. So we have
we have that, and then we have interested really okay,
there's so many selfies of him holding his hair back,
I know, like kind of slicked back. I don't know
a lot of I did a little bit of research
and a lot of people are saying he's trying to
look like Patrick Bateman from American samar.

Speaker 3 (01:09:31):
That what people are saying, no.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
Because he does look like him quite a bit, and
it does sort of track.

Speaker 6 (01:09:36):
And then you guys, these ones are even creepier. There's
like three or four of him shirtless. One of them
is in his home in Pullman, and then three or
four of them are in his mother's kitchen and he's shirtless,
and he's posing, he's flexing, and he's and these are
all after the murder.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
Almost saluting in one of them in saluting. Listen, he's
a goober.

Speaker 8 (01:09:59):
The pictures like I was like trying to have a
peaceful night. I opened my phone. Broom, it's Brian Colberger
like terrifying, britty faith.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
Yeah with that, Yeah, no, no warning.

Speaker 8 (01:10:14):
Scary body. You did not you needed to.

Speaker 3 (01:10:16):
Do, like I'm sorry, my gosh. Listen, stick around.

Speaker 4 (01:10:21):
We've got more to dig into, and we will also
be hearing from you. Keep it here True Crime Tonight,
where we're talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeart Radio. We're
talking true crime all the time. By the way, this
has been in a wild night and it continues because
we also have breaking news. You will remember TAHA was
covering a story about the singer David, who was on
tour doing a concert.

Speaker 3 (01:10:57):
His Seattle concert was canceled.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
Last night because there had been a fifteen year old
girl found decomposing in the trunk of his tesla. It
was impounded and authorities were suggesting that perhaps maybe it
had been there for almost a month. And we now
know her name and that she was a missing girl

(01:11:19):
since she was thirteen years old. So that was a
tough tale even last night. And now there's brand new
information breaking as we're on the air.

Speaker 6 (01:11:27):
Yeah, so the police have basically raided his home. This
is the synopsis of it all. Kind of doing this
ad lib right now. So singer David's home was thoroughly
searched by the Los Angeles Police Department Homicide Unit and
Wednesday evening. So last night as they tried to connect Celestieva,
she's the victim, she's the little girl. Basically she's fifteen. Finally,

(01:11:48):
the little girl who was found in his tesla trunk, right,
they're trying to connect her to the property and the singer.
So she was fifteen. She was identified Wednesday as the
victim who were were found inside that tesla on September eighth.
TMZ actually told Banfield just now that police were looking
for anything resembling blood evidence, and this is a quote.

Speaker 3 (01:12:11):
This is a quote.

Speaker 6 (01:12:11):
They were checking drains to see if there was any
blood evidence or any blood or tissue that was in
the drains there. So they did a scouring of his
house looking for any evidence. Police told TMZ that the
home was about a block a block and a half
from where the Tesla was parked before it was told
so it was just down the.

Speaker 3 (01:12:30):
Street in this house. What is dummy?

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
What is he thinking? And by the way, what's that
age difference? That's a very sixth okay age difference when
they met he was eighteen and she was thirteen.

Speaker 3 (01:12:43):
That's still weird to me. Of course it is still illegal.

Speaker 6 (01:12:46):
It's still yes, y, of course it is. So it's
and he continued, he said, we know that tesla is his.
The thing that's still not clear is who was actually
driving that tesla round the body was placed in the car,
and who parked it where it was eventually found and impounded.
Those are the dots that still need to be connected.

Speaker 4 (01:13:08):
Well, has he I don't know if if this is
out yet, body but has this turned officially to a
homicide and is he a suspect because earlier the autopsy
had not come out. Is it's not done, which, just
to be clear, it has not been declared.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
He's a personal interest going through his house looking through
history units, the homicide unit is right, So I mean,
there's no other way for her to be.

Speaker 6 (01:13:34):
Really kind of in his trunk of course. Yeah, so
I mean she didn't crawl in there herself. I can't,
you know what I mean, Like, I'm sure this is.

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):
But I did.

Speaker 9 (01:13:42):
I was talking to someone else about this before if
he if slightly giving the benefit of the doubt, Let's
say imagine he's on tour. She's a part of his life.
Could she have been staying there and his circle of
you know, music friends or all that or something else
actually very true to could have been before we sort
of go to him and.

Speaker 6 (01:14:01):
Maybe it's just a coincidence that his hit is called
like romantic homicide, right, Like, you know, there's just a
lot of weird things, you know, and if you go
and look at like all that digital I'm going to
use air quotes evidence of their relationship. You know, there's
photos of photo presumably her and him together throughout the

(01:14:21):
last couple of years.

Speaker 3 (01:14:22):
Looks she's like her lyrics and songs unreleased.

Speaker 4 (01:14:28):
About the name Celeste, Yes, also let's not remember but
also remember his You know, Celeste's mother who is desperately
missing her daughter, and what a horrible day for her
to be facing the realization of what's really happened.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
She didn't have a good feeling about Celeste's boyfriend, whose
name just by coincidence also David. So again scenario tattoos
that know, what are they so secretive about?

Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
Again?

Speaker 2 (01:15:01):
I know it's a popular tattoo, but again, young girls,
et cetera. And by the way, shout out to Harvey
Levin and TMC really break in the story real time.

Speaker 3 (01:15:11):
Absolutely is that crazy.

Speaker 8 (01:15:13):
I need to tell you guys. I was scrolling on
Twitter earlier and I came across a David fan account
that was like, at the end of the day, I
will be rebranding. I do not condone murder. I sound
like part of me was like, I just have to
last because the fact that a David fran account it
is probably this poor, like thirteen year old girl who
just like like your song and now she feels like

(01:15:34):
she has to like make an official statement that she
does not condone murder. It's just so brutal. I feel
so roud.

Speaker 4 (01:15:41):
For well, David has also had that that girl, that
head of the fan club, whomever she is, and you
are okay. This is not do you make your stamp,
but you're okay. But brands have pulled back from David.
I didn't realize he quite how popular his music had
gotten something platinum.

Speaker 3 (01:16:01):
Yeah, by the way, he's been on tour.

Speaker 2 (01:16:04):
So I actually like Tahas theory and I want to
go with it because I do not believe, in my
heart of hearts that any human could actually murder a girl,
let her decompose in the trunk of your tesla for
close to a month, knowing that her mother is missing
her young, young daughter, and then go on tour and
continue to perform. I find that hard to believe in

(01:16:26):
close to impossible.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
And the car right near your house, like it just
like how stupid could you be?

Speaker 4 (01:16:31):
Like Yeah, But also, guys, I mean if guilt or not,
I don't care what you're doing. If someone calls, if
the authorities call and say, hey, there's actually a body
decomposing in a car that's actually registered to you, I
think you go ahead and deal with it and put
what you're doing, put that tour on hold for a
moment that was a whatever the circumstances.

Speaker 3 (01:16:52):
I find that to be a very strange choice. Totally agree.

Speaker 2 (01:16:56):
But like Devil's advocate, so you have your whole career,
this is your moment, lots of money on the line,
millions and millions of dollars, so you can actually go
on tour.

Speaker 3 (01:17:05):
It's big business.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
And if you had nothing to do with something and
this crazy weird thing happened, Now that we know who
she is and that she is for certain someone that
he likely knows.

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
Well, that changes it. But maybe he didn't realize.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):
Maybe he just thought his car got stolen and that
a random person was found in his car.

Speaker 3 (01:17:27):
Why would he stop his tour? I don't, I don't know.
It's complicated stuff.

Speaker 6 (01:17:30):
Yeah, well the car was found before it got impounded
a block and a block and a half away from
his house.

Speaker 3 (01:17:35):
Though, I mean it was right.

Speaker 9 (01:17:37):
But that's what I mean, like, if he did that,
why would you put the body there and leave the car?
It seems it seems almost a little like maybe I.

Speaker 6 (01:17:45):
Mean, I don't think we're dealing with the smartest, you know,
the brightest bulbming.

Speaker 11 (01:17:50):
Okay, but this is my this is my question.

Speaker 8 (01:17:53):
How long has she been decomposing for? Like, are she's
been dead since she went missing? Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:18:00):
Close to him?

Speaker 2 (01:18:01):
I had read reports that said close to a month. Yeah,
but it was you know, like, who's to really say?
And again, the autopsy results haven't been released yet and
that does take a second, so there's no real cause
of death in this exact moment, not yet.

Speaker 4 (01:18:16):
The authorities estimate that her body was placed in the
trunk about five days before it was impounded, and of
course it was then impounded for several days before it
was opened.

Speaker 6 (01:18:28):
God, okay, can I can I talk about the song
really quick?

Speaker 5 (01:18:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:18:32):
Okay? So which which one the one that has her
lyrics in it?

Speaker 8 (01:18:35):
So?

Speaker 3 (01:18:36):
Ok yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:18:36):
The track It was leaked on SoundCloud in December of
twenty twenty three, Okay, and it's called Celeste Demo on
Thin Okay. So this is obviously prior to her death, okay,
long prior to her death. And the singer mentioned Celeste
twice in the song, saying, oh Celeste, the girl with

(01:18:56):
my name hat twoed on her chest, smell her on
my clothes like cigarettes. I hear her voice each time
I take a breath. I'm obsessed. And then, oh, Celeste,
afraid you'll only love me when undressed. But you look
so gorgeous in that dress. Missing you so much makes
me depressed, But I digress. What these are stupid?

Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
This guy's are relinguist.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
Yeah, come on, yeah, I'm going to hope that Taha's
theory is correct. And then maybe somebody, maybe in his
circle or a total stranger, has stolen his car that
was probably in the driveway because he was that.

Speaker 3 (01:19:34):
Just happens to have his girlfriend in the trunk.

Speaker 2 (01:19:36):
And maybe she was there and they took her and
put her in the trunk, maybe and maybe this morning
and hopefully hopefully not burying her in Colorado.

Speaker 3 (01:19:48):
This is awful. I'm trying to find good and awful.

Speaker 10 (01:19:51):
Man.

Speaker 8 (01:19:52):
Okay, well, while we're talking lyrics, this is the course
of romantic homicide. In the back of my mind, you
died and I didn't even cry, not a sing.

Speaker 4 (01:20:00):
Here.

Speaker 8 (01:20:00):
That's literally the chorus.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):
It is, But that was really that the song that
was really Celeste.

Speaker 9 (01:20:07):
No, that's the difference. This other song is romantic homicide.

Speaker 3 (01:20:10):
That's much better cure.

Speaker 2 (01:20:13):
Yeah, but that's also kind of a dark title, it is.

Speaker 8 (01:20:17):
And then you go out to say I killed you
and I didn't even regret it. I can't believe I
said it, but it's true.

Speaker 6 (01:20:23):
But it's important to know, though, right that that was
released a while ago.

Speaker 3 (01:20:27):
She was so less already missing at that point. Yes, no,
she was not.

Speaker 6 (01:20:32):
In twenty twenty two. No no, no, she was at home.
But they had met so my film, No, no, no,
thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:20:38):
We know that three years ago they had met. It's
twenty was around that time, wasn't it. Yeah, if he
was eighteen and she was so possible.

Speaker 2 (01:20:46):
It maybe rate it maybe before twenty Yeah, anyway, we
just it is so painful watching all of us try
to do mad I know that visual of all of
us thinking was not great.

Speaker 3 (01:20:59):
Were feel bad? Literally that was the other day the
body was found.

Speaker 9 (01:21:05):
She was missing at thirteen, and he's not adding anyway the.

Speaker 3 (01:21:09):
Math is not method. Yeah bad. Can we get a
talk back in do we think before the night is
enough time? Let's do it. Let's get a few more
if we can.

Speaker 11 (01:21:20):
Hey, guys from Canada, Hiley, I'm wondering if you would
cover the qu Pauk murder one time and the work you.

Speaker 9 (01:21:32):
Do by oh wow wow wow request especially.

Speaker 3 (01:21:39):
It would be an interesting one to cover. So we
brought that up nexis.

Speaker 6 (01:21:44):
To it is and guess what you know, who kind
of is assessed that one? Indy and you can do
it together.

Speaker 3 (01:21:50):
And by the way, let's do it next. We should
do it because Diddy's.

Speaker 2 (01:21:54):
Going back to court, and there's also a very obvious
connection between the Tupac story and because Hunter pleedgedly, Dinny
and Ningy were in blah blah blah.

Speaker 3 (01:22:04):
You'll have to tell us how I will. I love it.

Speaker 9 (01:22:06):
I'm going to dig into it. My only fear is
there's a lot of gang talk and you know the
red and blue, so I wear both of those colors,
so I don't want to have any in both of them.

Speaker 3 (01:22:15):
Okay, all right, but no, we'll cover that.

Speaker 9 (01:22:17):
That's been one that that has been one that I've been.

Speaker 3 (01:22:20):
Fascinated by, so we'll dig into me too. Actually, I'm
very interested in that one. And you know it's local
to me, Yeah, very local to me. Yeah, And so
I guess we have another talk back to me here.
Let's do it, Hi, True crime tonight.

Speaker 12 (01:22:31):
This is Erica from Upstate New York. I was just
listening to Monday Show and you said that you love
talkbacks about positive things in somebody's life, so I wanted
to share that I am going to Nashville in a
member to try on wedding dresses for the first time
for my wedding next year. I really hope that I

(01:22:54):
run into you, Stephanie allegedly allegedly allegedly.

Speaker 3 (01:22:57):
Oh yeah, I'll the wedding shopping with you, baby. You
tell me where to be. I bet you. I'm real
good at that. That's a that's a category. That's great,
that is gratulations. Let this be the kick off to
the happy news talking. Yeah, yes, happy news please good.

Speaker 4 (01:23:19):
That is such an exciting moment. I hope you really
love it. Like I remember so much trying dresses on
and and I am not a girly girl.

Speaker 3 (01:23:30):
I think that's fair to say.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
You have to know you, like all of us that
you were. We are sometimes so girly and.

Speaker 4 (01:23:37):
Sometimes it's not. Yeah, that's accurate. But it felt like magic,
and I hope you feel like magic. And I'm sure
you will feel like magic when you find that dress.

Speaker 3 (01:23:45):
She's dressed it sounds like to go where is she
coming from?

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
I once, yeah, upstate New York right, or oh maybe
she's probably all New Yorker right.

Speaker 4 (01:24:00):
Goodness, this is you guys. You guys are meant to
Are we going to say yes.

Speaker 3 (01:24:04):
He's dress or what let's do it?

Speaker 6 (01:24:06):
You're like a big bridle like thing in Nashville or
something is there? Like is it a destination for weddings?

Speaker 3 (01:24:12):
I don't know, or.

Speaker 4 (01:24:12):
Maybe she's just getting married. I got married in Connecticut
and so I also flew and my dress was in Connecticut.

Speaker 3 (01:24:22):
Oh so frustrating though for like fittings and stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:24:25):
No, it was a very My engagement was so short
people actually thought I was Several people ask me if
I was pregnant. We were only engaged for fourteen weeks,
so it's not like there were a lot of childs.

Speaker 3 (01:24:36):
I try to travel with a wedding dress, I don't you.

Speaker 4 (01:24:39):
And my mom had you know, it was she wanted
me to go to this whatever the tailor who makes
the dresses it.

Speaker 3 (01:24:46):
Was okay, So maybe it's something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:48):
Then Yeah, this is why Courtney was the opposite of
a bridezilla, because that's it's why she's cool. Because yes,
she's very girly, but then that's a pretty good statement
that you can hang Courtney or I'm strong that you
just got that go in and record time. Well huge congratulations. Yeah,
I feel like that's so nice to end on a
high note.

Speaker 9 (01:25:06):
Wasn't because this has been a tough week, so we
needed some happy energy.

Speaker 3 (01:25:09):
Yeah, big smile to the group.

Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
I love you guys, listen again, Big night, Amanda Ox,
thank you for joining us, Santa Taha into Ava and
Adam and Sam and Courtney and body Oscar in our hearts.
I love you guys. Let's have a great.

Speaker 3 (01:25:26):
Tonight and a wonderful weekend.

Speaker 2 (01:25:27):
Everybody stays safe out there and have a great weekend.

Speaker 4 (01:25:32):
I'm back at you and good night from the studio

(01:25:53):
who brought you the pikedon Masacer and murder one oh one.

Speaker 3 (01:25:56):
This is in cells.

Speaker 4 (01:26:00):
Also Woman Know What and Dami Either from the dark
corners of the web, an emerging mindset.

Speaker 3 (01:26:08):
I can't have you girls, I will destroy you.

Speaker 4 (01:26:12):
A kind of subculture, a hidden world of resentment, cynicism,
anger against women.

Speaker 1 (01:26:17):
This is a wake up call for how we think
about manhood.

Speaker 3 (01:26:22):
A seed of loneliness explodes. I just hate myself. I
don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me, but
I will punish you all for it. That was the
point where I realized I can't help him. He doesn't
want it. At a deadly tipping.

Speaker 4 (01:26:37):
Point, in cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide.

Speaker 12 (01:26:41):
Please say a driver intentionally drove into a crowd, killing
ten people.

Speaker 3 (01:26:46):
I just told my husband I know she's dead.

Speaker 4 (01:26:50):
Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which
I will have my revenge.

Speaker 3 (01:26:57):
This is in cells.

Speaker 9 (01:27:00):
If you could just drop that any minute and nobody
will even notice.

Speaker 4 (01:27:05):
Listen to Season one of Inseels starting September twenty fourth
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get
your podcasts.