Anna Kepner’s Cause of Death Revealed & a Chilling Update in the Celeste Rivas Investigation

New developments in the death of 18-year-old Anna Kepner, the case of Celeste Rivas Hernandez, and a growing case against accused serial killer Kevin Lino. Tune in for all the details.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight. We are on iHeartRadio and
we are talking true crime all the time. We have
made it all the way to Sunday, November twenty third,
and we do indeed have a stacked night of headlines.
I'm Courtney Armstrong here gratefully with Body Move in. Stephanie
Leidecker is out for the evening, but we are also

(00:42):
here with producer Taha and engineer Adam and scientific Sunday.
Our beloved forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan is also unable
to join us tonight, but we're in for a super
treat because our very own Body Move and will be
taking over Crime Lab and teaching us about breakthrough cases

(01:02):
in forensic history, what metadata is and how it has
identified some notorious killers before we hop into the rest
of it Body How was the weekend so far?

Speaker 3 (01:15):
I just I can't eat enough Keeso this weekend. I'm listen.
I'm all about the Keeso. This weekend, I have eaten
myself out of house and home. I'm eating right now,
like I can't stop on don't own. But other than that, great, how.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Was yours good? And listen, I think you got it.
It's like a pregame for Thanksgiving.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
Yeah, but that's I'm getting my stomach ready. I want
that turkey and that stuffing and those match tators all
I care about.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, And because of Taha's controversial take on In and
Out last week, it has only really been on my
brain like a drug for five days. And so that
is what I ate before the show. What'd you get?
What'd you get? I got a I got animal fries,

(02:01):
so I got extra Crispy fries animal style, and and
I got a cheeseburger wrapped in lettuce.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
To you're pregame in two, I don't want to hear it.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
Oh yeah hard. I like it wrapped in lettuce most
of the time. That's how I used to get it.
The bread sough soggy. I guess I totally agree. I
like it. Buss and Adam, I understand also hit hit
in and Out. I did.

Speaker 5 (02:23):
I did have In and Out but pre show at
some point last week, and it was good. I mean,
you know, I you know, I can't pretend like I
don't do it all the time, So okay, or isn't
anything super special?

Speaker 3 (02:38):
You know sometimes when you're listen, sometimes it's easier and
cheaper just to grab something.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
You know, It's like.

Speaker 5 (02:44):
It is kind of the cheapest fast food options. We're
not getting paid by in and out.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
But that's right.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
I know you'd say, although they did want to sponsor,
I would not be mad o.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
Shakespeare days. Well, listen back into our head lines. There's
been a newly identified serial killer and we're going to
be digging into the details of all that. We also
have major updates, and this is regarding the tragic cruise
death of eighteen year old Anna Kepner. So a lot
has come out, including her cause of death, and her

(03:18):
biological mother has broken her silence as well. And also
there's been a controversial new TMZ report and the claims
that Celeste Revas Hernandez's body had been frozen. So we'll
get into those confusing details as well. But first a talkback.

Speaker 6 (03:39):
Hi, this is Tamra from New Jersey. I just read
that Martin Donahue, the uncle of Anna Kepner, says that
her stepbrother actually killed her and that the parents actually
know about this. I haven't heard any news outside of this.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
What have you guys heard? Thanks so much, love your show.

Speaker 3 (03:59):
Yeah, I saw that tweet. I saw it and he says,
you know, I'm Anna's uncle. The stepbrother is responsible for this.
Her brother when he you know, her her biological brother.
When he left the room, Anna was there and he
went to go take pictures and when he came back,
he thought Anna had left and so and there was
no surveillance footage of her leaving.

Speaker 4 (04:21):
So yeah, and that and that the stepdad and mom
knew because.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
The suspect in this case, the stepbrother, had confessed to
the mom.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
That's what I That's what I read. Okay, Yeah, that
was quite a tweet.

Speaker 7 (04:37):
And there's been some things that have come out with that.

Speaker 8 (04:40):
I think Courtney you were looking into some of the
latest with that one, because.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, so some salient details have come out. So investigators
now believe that Anna Keepner indeed did die from exphyxiation.
And this is a board of carnival cruise that she
had been taking. And new court filings and family statements
do indicate her sixteen year old stepbrother and the fact
that he's under investigation and may be facing criminal charges.

(05:09):
So eighteen year old Anna was found dead under a
bed on the Carnival Horizon cruise. This was back on
November eighth, and she was on the cruise with her father,
her step mother, and two step siblings. And her death
has prompted an ongoing FBI investigation. And there's been a
lot of complicated family dynamics in this one.

Speaker 9 (05:32):
Yeah, a lot like the mom, the biological mother of her,
had to like sneak into the funeral and I don't
understand any of that at all, and the uncle of
course coming out like there's it's really really really sad,
it really is.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
And so we'll kind of start with because there are
a bunch of confusing different things, but just starting with
sort of the facts of the investigation that we know. Yeah, preliminarily,
it was determined that Anna had died from exphyxiation, and
that is also the details included by a bar hold,
which is having an arm pressed across your neck.

Speaker 3 (06:13):
Yeah, Like imagine somebody's behind you, right and they come
up behind you and they put you know, your basically
your chin in their elbow, right, Like that's the Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Like a headlock.

Speaker 4 (06:26):
Headlock, there you go from behind?

Speaker 7 (06:28):
Yeah, okay, gotcha.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
And this is this is indeed the first publicly reported
indication of specifically a mechanism of death. But important to
note the medical examiner has not confirmed it and a
full toxicology report is still pending, which makes sense. There
thankfully were no signs of sexual assault found. God. Yeah.

(06:55):
And indeed the preliminary talk screens they show no drugs
or alcohol in ann a system, So we'll see how
that bears out. Anna did tell her family that night
that she wasn't feeling very well the night before her death,
and she did go to bed early. And when her
body was found under the bed, it was by a housekeeper, right.

Speaker 3 (07:17):
And my understanding it was kind of like covered in
life jackets, like concealing it from opening.

Speaker 7 (07:24):
Yeah, that's right. Did something to try to hide situation,
if you will.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Allegedly, Although I do have to say this additional information
about the potential bar hold is different because even when
we had first heard about this, and Stephanie was thinking, oh,
maybe they got a little boozy as kids may do
on her environment that.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
Yeah, international waters drinking.

Speaker 7 (07:52):
Yeah, else, I was guilty of that.

Speaker 8 (07:53):
I even said like who do we know that she
had medical history issues or you know, all these other
questions that we hadn't had an answer to you. But
now that we do know this, and I think Courtney,
even how we're finding out some of this info is
do an interesting or unusual way.

Speaker 7 (08:09):
I think that there was something to touch.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yes, So a lot of this information is coming out
because of custody hearing court filings. Yeah, so Anna's step family,
they're in the process and this is unrelated to what
happened to Anna, but they're in the process of an
unrelated custody case. And that's how all this information is

(08:32):
coming out. Regarding Anna's stepbrother, who again is sixteen years old.
There for a minor investigators have not publicly named a suspect. Interesting,
So it's a lot of info coming out. The FBI
has told and this came out through the proceedings. The
FBI told Anna's stepmother that one of her children may

(08:53):
face criminal charges. And the sixteen year old step brother
we've been speaking about was reportedly hospitalized immediately after Anna's
body was discovered. This is like, really really sad. This
is true crime.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
Tonight on iHeartRadio, i'mbody moving and I'm here with Courtney
Armstrong and listen, we got Aha chiming in on things.
We're talking about the death of eighteen year old Anna
Kepner aboard the Carnival Horizon cruise ship. If you have thoughts,
we want you to, you know, weigh in, give us
a call eighty eight thirty one crime or hit us
on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
You know what else?

Speaker 3 (09:29):
I found kind of strange and I'm just gonna stay
too obvious it. This room was being shared by Anna
who's eighteen. She's no longer, but Anna's eighteen, her little brother,
her biological brother, and I think he's fourteen or fifteen, okay,
and then the stepbrother who's sixteen. Why are all three

(09:50):
of them in the same room. That is really strange
to be putting the kids together at that age, especially
a stepbrother.

Speaker 8 (09:58):
I mean, I can't speak this for all families that
travel cruises are a little pricey.

Speaker 3 (10:03):
So okay, well, then put mom with Anna and put
the dad with the two boys.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
I see your point.

Speaker 8 (10:10):
Yeah, that's mom and dad were like, we want our.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
Away. I don't know, I just think it's maybe it's
maybe it's not weird. And I just I think it's weird.
But I think it's weird.

Speaker 8 (10:20):
Weird for me, Like I would be like, oh, I
can't sleep with all these people, but I understand that clearly.

Speaker 7 (10:25):
You know, they probably said all the kids will be
fine together.

Speaker 3 (10:28):
But especially since like we saw, did you guys see
the video of Anna's ex boyfriend come out?

Speaker 8 (10:35):
No?

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (10:36):
Okay, So he he came out and he was like,
I'm Anna's ex boyfriend. And they were like, all this
press around him, right, and he said, you know, I
think it was her stepbrother. And he said this alone,
like right after it happened. And they were like, why
you know, why tell us why you think that? And
he said, because when we were on FaceTime, when we
were together, we would be on FaceTime and whatnot her
brother was her stepbrother was always trying to climb on.

Speaker 7 (10:59):
Top of her. Oh oh god, it was weird.

Speaker 3 (11:03):
And yeah, So like knowing that and then learning that
they were all in the same room, I'm like, oh.

Speaker 8 (11:10):
Now I get it. Now, I see why your mind
went because I didn't know that's why my mind went there. Yeah,
maybe I would probably think the same. What's weird to
me is I guess I don't know a lot about
the world of custody hearings, and you know how the
FBI pandles investigations and such. But the fact that they're
getting we're getting a lot of the information about everything

(11:30):
through the custody hearing. It's just interesting that I guess
the FBI is letting whoever is involved with the custody
hearing know some of the details of the case.

Speaker 7 (11:38):
But we don't know.

Speaker 8 (11:39):
I mean, but it's just I think it's just odd
and fascinating. But another thing, referring to news that's coming
out about it, did you know, Courtney, you know about
how her biological mother found out about the news?

Speaker 2 (11:51):
Oh? Yeah, this is heartbreaking. So it really is. So.
Anna's biological mother indeed was on the cruise. Her name
is Heather Wright, and she lives in Oklahoma. She had
not seen Anna for several years, and she attributes that
distance to Anna's father's alleged interference in that and Anna's mother,

(12:16):
Heather stated she was never informed of her daughter's death
by authorities or by family, and she discovered the news
by googling. Eighteen year old died on cruise ship and
up came Anna's photo and media coverage. Can you imagine?

Speaker 7 (12:33):
Horrible?

Speaker 2 (12:33):
No, horrible No, I mean it's a sickening How in
the world do you whatever terms you're on?

Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah, with your do you call your ex and you
tell it look at our daughter, just like, what is
going on?

Speaker 2 (12:47):
I don't understand that.

Speaker 7 (12:48):
Satan. Yeah, that makes no sense to me that.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
Although I mean I don't know anything about her mom.
I don't know what the situation she's in.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
It's hard.

Speaker 4 (12:58):
I mean, I truly don't know.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
I mean, there's sometimes you know, you're emancipated from your
parent in some situation for a reason, you know, And
I don't know. I don't know anything about their situation
for me to even speak on. But I just find
that very strange.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
Are It absolutely is? And also in the strange realm so.
Anna's mother, Heather, said that she attended Anna's celebration of
life in a disguise. She had a wig and high
heels on and that was to avoid any detection. And
she claims her ex husband threatened to have her arrested
if she entered the state of Florida. See there's some

(13:35):
child support issues. It sounds like there's a lot there.

Speaker 3 (13:39):
It sounds messy with everything. I mean, clearly the stepbrother
allegedly allegedly allegedly killed Anna. Right, there's clearly something wrong
with the entire family. I clearly something wrong. But you know,
I feel really bad for is the little brother, Anna's
biological brother. He left Anna and the stepbrother in the

(14:01):
room and went and took like photographs, he was I
think he was taking photographs.

Speaker 4 (14:06):
We correct me if I'm wrong, of the ship.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
And when he came back, Anna was gone, and he
thought she went out, but she was gone. I mean,
I feel really bad for that little bro. I feel
really bad for him. Nothing is his fault, clearly, I
just feel very bad. I just feel very bad for him.

Speaker 8 (14:25):
So he slept in that room with her body underneath
the bed the whole time, like not aware, not aware.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
I mean, he thought Anna went out. You know, it's
a cruise ship. She's eighteen, you know. Uh, God, he
didn't know where she was. He just knew that she
was not there. And there is no surveillance. There is
surveillance footage of her entering room, none of her leaving. Wow,
so obviously it happened when the brother was gone.

Speaker 8 (14:48):
Right, Yeah, Well this is this is this is a
sad one that I think I definitely would like to
continue following this and things keep us in the loop.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
Well, I don't know we're going to see much with
the FBI handling the investigation. I don't know that we're
going to see a whole lot. Will follow this custody thing, right,
We'll follow that to get some information. We'll have to
see what the FBI decides they want to release or not.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
And then just worth saying, Anna the victim, she was
a high school senior, a cheerleader, thoughtful, nurturing, outgoing, and
just someone who radiated positivity. So let's keep the shoes thoughts.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah, definitely in our thoughts, the whole families and our thoughts.
Really when we come back, we're going to be doing
some forensic breakthroughs that changed everything from the first DNA
case to the bitemark evidence that helped catch Ted Bundy
keep her hair. At True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong here with
my buddy Body move In and producer Taha and of
course Adam in the control room. And later in the
show we're going to be giving information about a newly
identified serial killer, so we'll dig into those details. Also,

(16:12):
we're gonna go over a controversial new TMZ report claims
that Celeste Revs Hernandez's body had been frozen. And she,
of course, is the fourteen year old whose deceased body
was found in the front of pop star David's tesla.
But first we have for Scientific Sunday, Body Movin herself

(16:36):
is going to talk about some forensic firsts.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
Yeah, I am the TMU Joseph Scott Morgan, I am
the stops.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
I am the TMU version.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
Of Joseph Scott Morgan, our wonderful friend, forensics expert Joseph
Scott Morgan is not here today for Scientific Sunday. Hopefully
he is having a wonderful time with his family, you know,
Thanksgiving week, you guys, right, So exactly right. So I
am doing We wanted to continue with those the forensic
Sundays just because Scientific Sunday, just because I selfishly love

(17:08):
talking about forensics.

Speaker 7 (17:09):
So yeah, we're going to do it.

Speaker 4 (17:13):
Do you really do?

Speaker 2 (17:14):
I love the case studies.

Speaker 8 (17:15):
I love you he does the crime lab like I
find that super fascinating.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
You too. There's something comforting to me about suctions.

Speaker 7 (17:22):
I can drop the factor two and people are like,
oh wow, how did.

Speaker 9 (17:24):
You know that?

Speaker 7 (17:25):
Who didn't know that?

Speaker 4 (17:26):
But oh right, right, yeah.

Speaker 8 (17:28):
So I'm ready for the next Thanksgiving function and yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
It makes us all seem smarter. Right.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
So for today, for our scientific Sunday, I thought it
would be interesting to cover some of the first like
the forensic first, and you know that have been really
important for you know, how cases are tried nowadays, right,
Like we're all kind of relying on the things that
happened first. And so we're gonna start with the first
case solved with DNA. And not only is it the
first case ever solved with DNA, it's also the first

(18:00):
conviction that was overturned using DNA. So it's two and one.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
It's a two for get out. Yeah, that's the two first.

Speaker 7 (18:05):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
So this happened in England. It was nineteen eighty six,
and it's called the Colin Pitchfork murders and it happened
in England. Nearly two nearly identical murders shocked the entire
country and eventually changed forensic science forever. It was on
November twenty first, nineteen eighty three. This is prior to

(18:27):
DNA being like discovered and broken down and whatnot. Fifteen
year old Linda Mann. She disappeared walking home. Her body
was found the next morning on a footpath known as
the Black Pad. She had been raped and strangled. Police
collected seamen from the scene, but in nineteen eighty three,
DNA profiling did not exist, so the case went just cold.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
Three years later, on July thirty first, nineteen eighty six,
another fifteen year old girl, don Ashwick ash Worth, I'm sorry,
she was found brutally murdered in a similar fashion.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
The community panicked. Police arrested a seventeen year old boy
who confessed under pressure, so this is a.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
False confession, okay.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
But investigators turned to a new experimental technique developed by
geneticist Sir Alec Jeffries, and it's called DNA profiling. All right,
So Jeffries, doctor Jeffries or Sir Alec Jeffries. I think
Sir is probably probably one of the coolest titles you
can get, right, Sir, Absolutely absolutely right.

Speaker 4 (19:35):
So sir, let's just call him Sir Jeffries.

Speaker 3 (19:38):
He compared the DNA from both murder scenes and made
two brown groundbreaking discoveries. Both commurders were committed by the
same man, and the teenage suspect who confessed was totally innocent,
so he became This became the first time DNA cleared
a suspect in a criminal case and the first time

(19:59):
it was used to somebody.

Speaker 4 (20:01):
Really, okay, now listen to this. This would never happen today.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
This would never happen today, number one, and it would
never happen in the United States. So, realizing the killer
was still free, police conducted the world's first masked DNA screening,
asking over five thousand local men to provide blove, blood
or saliva samples.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
Oh, so they.

Speaker 7 (20:22):
Asked the people in that area of the community men
to do that.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
So but then if they didn't even need to do it,
because the breakthrough came when a bakery worker admitted overhearing
that a coworker had submitted a DNA sample on behalf
of someone else, and he got suspicious of this. He
was like, why would they need to do that, So
he told the cops and that someone was Colin Pitchwork.

(20:48):
He was the father of two with a history of
indecent exposure, and when police obtained his DNA. It matched
both crime scenes perfectly.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
So he was arrested in September of nineteen eighty seven
and later sentenced to life in prison, becoming the first
person in history convicted using DNA evidence. And this became
obviously revolutionized, like nothing like DNA has revolutionized criminal science.

Speaker 4 (21:13):
I mean it is like totally revolutionized, right, Like.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
Now everybody expects DNA to be everywhere, right, like all
over the crime scene and you know the CSI effect, Right,
it's all about time.

Speaker 8 (21:26):
I'm like, you know, because you said this was the
first time someone was convicted, I wonder if it was
hard to convince the jewelry.

Speaker 3 (21:33):
Or you know what, I bet you it was. It
was probably really difficult to explain the DNA sequencing for
the first time. I mean, listen, iconic glaze over when.

Speaker 10 (21:42):
I hear it.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
I'm like, what, I struggle sometimes, you know, Yeah, I
could imagine, you know what it would be interesting to
look into that.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
I mean, this was a nineteen eighty six I don't
know how well it's documented. But yeah, so again this
became superhistoric. DNA cleared an innocent suspect, right, Wow, mass
DNA screen was conducted and it convicted the sky pitchfork. Yeah,
and that's the first DNA case.

Speaker 8 (22:11):
That is so incredible. I like you broke that down
so well that easy. I feel like, okay, I'm ready,
I could take my cap off. I feel like I
have one thing I've learned.

Speaker 3 (22:22):
The next one's even crazy though. The next one's actually
really interesting.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Oh is it something we can sink our teeth into.
Stop at keep your day job for sure. This is
Dr grumb tonight. We're on iHeartRadio and we are doing

(22:46):
Scientific Sunday and being schooled by the great Body Movin,
who just explained how DNA was first introduced in criminal cases.
And we would love to hear your thoughts aided three
one crime. Tell us what you're thinking about this, or
you can always sit us on a talk back on
the app upper right hand corner, there's a little red microphone.

(23:08):
You press it record and that recordings on the show.
But now, Body, forensic odentology, I believe, okay, you have
it right, you have it right.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
So friensic odent I cannot talk today forensic odentology.

Speaker 4 (23:25):
I need to get go see an identologists or something.

Speaker 3 (23:27):
So It is a specialized field where trained dentists help
investigate by examining like teeth and dental records, bite marks,
if there's any left, like on a victim, structure of jaws,
dental restorations, like you know, identifying fillings and crowns, bridges, dentures.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Teeth are really really durable.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
They even survive water damage, trauma, decomp and fire. So
you always hear people being identified via their dental records
or k right, right, So this is like forensic identology.
I guess, Okay, You're never okay, You're literally never going
to guess the first acknowledge the earliest historically accepted case

(24:13):
where dental evidence was used in a criminal or an
investigative context.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
You're never going to guess. Okay, so we just had
nineteen eighties fornas, right, Okay, so I'm gonna guess that
it was before. Let's go nineteen fifties.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
Oh well, you're half right.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
You're also never going to.

Speaker 8 (24:37):
Guess because I was talking with body about it.

Speaker 3 (24:40):
Heard right, Courtney, You're technically correct, But I'm going to
get to that in a minute. Oh I'm so the
first the first identification via forensic or odentology. I guess
it's a disguy named doctor Joseph Warren and he died
as a result of the batter of bunk Battle of
Bunker Hill. This was in seventeen seventy five. And guess

(25:05):
who sat in on this identification.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna give you this.

Speaker 4 (25:10):
I'm gonna give you a hint.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
The British are coming. The British are coming. Oh, I'm
so bad with history at all. So he d He
was like a silver smile.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
He was like a silversmith dentist, like they they used
to do the fillings and everything.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
Okay, so this guy died.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
This guy died in the war, Okay, as a result
of you know, he died of the batter of Buncle Hill,
Bunker Hill, and his body was just like really like
disfigured and mangled, and they couldn't identify who it was.
And his the Paul Revere, who was like again and
also a dentist, identified his body by recognizing like a

(25:54):
prosthetic that he had made for him. And he had
personally made that prosthetic.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
It was.

Speaker 3 (26:00):
It was probably like one of those fake teeth spacer
type situations. All sober, and it is the first recorded
instance of a person being identified using dental evidence.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
Paul Revere. Oh my gosh, that's wild crazy and body,
I actually did know that Paul Rear was a blacksmith.
And do you remember on West Wing? Why I would
know that? Oh no, there's actually you guys. It's a
Thanksgiving episode, so for any Okay, let's hear it. Let's
just really really quick. So in this Thanksgiving episode, President

(26:33):
Bartlett he is searching for a knife, and he's a
persnickety guy. He's real specific and yes, and his quote
body man Charlie Young goes, He's going to every kind
of knife you can. And then ultimately, in a very
touching scene, President Bartlett bestows upon Charlie Young, his beloved

(26:55):
body man, a relic. It's a knife from his family,
from his family with the initials p R for Paul Revere. Right,
it's a cool episode.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
I love that show. It just makes me all warm
and fuzzy. It's just I know, better times, better times.
But okay, so yeah, that's fascinating. Okay, another one there wasn't. Okay,
now here's the thing. The first I'm going to talk about.
The first US criminal conviction using bite marks because the
first one happened in England, and listen, we're talking way
too much about England right now.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
And so I wanted to only do the United States once.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
And so a woman was murdered in Texas and it
was the case of Doyle v. Texas, and this woman
was murdered and she bore bite bite marks, and a
dentist testified that the bite marks matched the defendant. So
this was the first bite mark conviction in US history.
The reason that I'm kind of bringing it up is

(27:55):
because it became really famous for Ted capturing Ted Bundy.
So Ted Bundy in the state of Florida where he,
you know, attacked ky Omega. There was a bite mark
left on Lisa Levi's like butt, and it became the
centerpiece of the prosecution. So Bundy's teeth were distinctive, they

(28:17):
were chipped, they were irregular, they were spaced, they were missed, aligned,
and the forensic odentologists created like a casting. There's a
really famous video of of Ted Bundy kind of sitting down,
kind of harassing the guy doing this this cast of
his mouth.

Speaker 7 (28:35):
Participate it, He.

Speaker 4 (28:35):
Didn't, he was Yeah, they fought it.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
They thought it got it, and so what they did
was in court they was really really dramatic this moment
they overlaid the bite mark with the cast of Bundy's
teeth and it matched perfectly.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
It was it was the moment.

Speaker 3 (28:55):
Bitemark evidence gained mythic credibility in the public's mind. However,
or forensic bike mark evidence today has come under like
serious review. The National Academy of Sciences criticized it's scientist.
It's kind of considered just science at this point. I
wonder why, because it seems so Yeah, I mean, because
it contributed to at least twenty six wrongful convictions. Modern

(29:19):
courts now treat by mark evidence and testimony with a
lot of skepticism, and because like everybody's teeth impressions, it's
not unique like DNA or fingerprint, it's not one hundred
percent unique. People can have, you know, implants like me,
you know, I have prosthetics.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
It's just note else. Yeah, right, Like that makes sense. Okay, yeah,
so is this something that would come up? Would they
have like Daubert evidentiary hearings about that. That's what well
I would imagine, Yeah, I went basically, yes, experts, expert
testimony being you know, certified by the judge, and yeah,

(29:59):
they can talk about it, but again it's met with
a lot of skepticism. Nowadays, there isn't a lot of
court cases that I'm familiar with, at least in the
last ten years, that I've talked about bite mark evidence. Wow,
I can't recall at least that's okay. So, first of all,
it's fascinating about Ted Bundy. And also I wonder if
it's not because, like you said, implants are much more

(30:20):
common braces right everywhere, and so our teeth are less distinctive,
Like I never had braces and I have real distinctive.
Well it's over teeth.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
You know, right, And it's important to know, like you
can be identified via your dental records because you might
have a filling or you know, they'll have a cast
at your dental records and that's all cataloged and organized.
But your impression that you leave could look the same,
like our impression Courtney could look the same. I right,
imagine even though I have, you know, like maybe a
filling or you have a fill, you know what I mean,

(30:51):
you can still leave the bruises that teeth leave.

Speaker 7 (30:54):
They're just not somewhat similar if you wire right.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
Well, I mean, yeah, it convicted twenty six wrong people. Wow.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yeah, it's kind of nuts, right, so yeah, anyway, it's
not it's not used as much anymore.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
Well, thank you for all of that knowledge. I am
now smarter, just like when Joseph Scott Morgan's here. So
thank you. Boddy Body has been doing kind of dual
duty of co host and as right and driving our
scientific Sundays to keep us all smart and informed. We've

(31:29):
got a lot more coming up in the show. We've
got updates. Yeah, you did a great job. So good.

Speaker 7 (31:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (31:34):
I was going to make a joke and say, you
know what another first is. Yeah, that was your first
time doing it and it was amazing.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
I did it a couple of weeks, a couple of
months ago or no, like a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
I think, yeah, I.

Speaker 7 (31:45):
Feel where's my dun's cap when you put it?

Speaker 2 (31:46):
Remember, I was like mercy apple for me? Yeah that's right, okay, Well.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
Hello me, oh me, I want to thank me.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
Because a second time, how's that?

Speaker 11 (32:01):
All right?

Speaker 2 (32:01):
Thank you. Later in the show, we've got updates in
the David Celestrevas Hernandez case, as well as information on
a new alleged serial killer. But right now we are
going to get into some talkbacks.

Speaker 12 (32:16):
Oh okay, Hi, this is Marissa from Maryland talking about
the tracking people.

Speaker 2 (32:23):
I'll tell you what.

Speaker 12 (32:24):
I have Life three sixty for my family, but I
also have it for my mom. When she was driving
down to our house in Maryland. We live in Western
she was driving straight to Baltimore. I noticed where she
was and I was able to talk her way to
our house. This is this happens a few times, so
it's really valuable.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Oh yeah, wow, that's great that you did.

Speaker 8 (32:48):
I thought about it for senior years, which is really
a smart thing.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
Like, you know, I have friends that you know, are
dating and they'll be like, I'm you know, I'm going
on a date.

Speaker 4 (32:59):
Can you watch I'm yeah, you know. I love spying
on my friends.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
I love it.

Speaker 4 (33:05):
I like I watched them.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
Drive around do their errands, you know, I you know,
if they're going out, I know, and I know they're
going out and maybe having a.

Speaker 4 (33:12):
Little bit of too much of a good time. I'm like, okay,
let's make sure they're safe.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
You know.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, I love it. I love it. I don't do
any of you watch vander Pump Rules. I used to,
I haven't a really long time. Here's here's where I'm
missing Stephanie the most. There's a there's a woman named
Sheena Shea, and she uh famously has so many people
share their locations with her, and she also will sit there,

(33:37):
you know, just kind of you know, checking everything, but
she's also uncovered quite a bit of like who shouldn't
be at so and so?

Speaker 4 (33:46):
Oh that's scandalous.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
I need that.

Speaker 4 (33:50):
If you guys want to share your locations with me,
I'm up for it.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
I want to thoughty on the case. Let me all
over that one. Okay, okay, Well, after we spoke about this,
and I honestly don't even remember how this originally came up.
But for the first time, i'd never I did not
even know where it was in my phone. And it
turns out that I had been tracking my husband and son.

(34:17):
I knew bout my son and I have that a
different way, but that my husband didn't track me. I
don't know if you're having a fight when that was installed,
And I was like.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
Did you feel offended, like or were you like, wait
a minute, why isn't he looking where I'm at.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
No, it was more I'm sure it was definitely my
decision in whatever moment whatever years ago. But anyway, now
we decided honestly a lot. What the talkback woman was saying,
He's like, yeah, I can tell how far you are
away when I'm coming. You know, we hang out a
lot being married, and I.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
Share a location with my best friend and when I
you know, when I drive to her house, I go
into my car, I plug in my phone, I text
my nave and it's like, do you give you know,
Jody an update on where you're at, and it chexts her,
you know, every ten minutes or so she's eight minutes
away or you know.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 8 (35:11):
That's I love it, and it gives me comfort about
the dating side because I do go and dates.

Speaker 7 (35:16):
So now maybe.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
It's haha, you scoundrel.

Speaker 8 (35:19):
I know, well I should send it to friends and say,
like you should someone new I'm meeting, so just.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
You tah, listen, I'm your girl. I am your girl.
I would never Okay, I even have cast members from
The Mole on my Yeah. Yeah, everybody, Oh yeah, I
love that. Okay, Oh, so and so is in you know, Hawaii.
Oh look at the you know, I love it. Yeah, okay,
no nefarious, no nefariousness is going on.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
I'm helping. Let's grab another talkback.

Speaker 13 (35:52):
Hi, team, this is Carla. I'm wondering if you could
look into and maybe speak on the horrific murder of
Amber Zek in Minnesota.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
Thank you. You know.

Speaker 3 (36:07):
Strangely enough, I actually know about this. I happen to
belong to a reddit, a subreddit that talks about it
mainly focuses on violence against women, and this headline stood
out to me and I read it. I think on Thursday. Well, yeah, Thursday,
this happened. I think off top I'm doing this top ahead.

(36:32):
I think at the beginning of this month, maybe maybe
mid November, November seventh or something.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Just the cliff notes I have is that it happened
the morning of November eleventh, November eleventh, Yeah, around six
o'clock am. And this was inside an Advanced Process Technologies
facility in Cocotoa, Minnesota. But yeah, what what else happened
with twenty years old?

Speaker 4 (36:59):
She's twenty years old. Her name is Amber.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
She had recently gone through like a welding program, and
she was working in that trade of welding. I mean,
this is a specialized trade, and it's worth noting that
not a lot of women are in these you know,
specialized trades when you're talking about construction and engineering like that.
And she was in pro employed as a welder at

(37:23):
this manufacturing plant. And this guy, his name's David DeLong.
He's forty years old. He was a coworker of hers,
and he just he was at his workstation and he
picked up a sledgehammer, walked over to her workstation and
just started bludgeoning her.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Hit her five times, five or.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
Six times, and then like something about like he walked
to his supervisor and was like, she's gone. And when
they arrested him, he told police that he had been
planning on he didn't like her, and that he had
been something about like he had been planning on killing
her for a while.

Speaker 7 (37:58):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah. So, and the reason it.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Popped up is, uh, there was a video on TikTok
or something some guy who is a welder and works
in the trade, and he was like, we have to
be better to women in our trade. But you know,
I really believe that this is an isolated incident.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
You know.

Speaker 3 (38:15):
I of course, violence against women is at the workplace
is not okay.

Speaker 4 (38:19):
But this guy clearly something's wrong with him. I mean clearly,
I think this is an outlier.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
How sad and senseless you go to work, you have
this unbelievable skilled job as a twenty year just finished.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
She's twenty, Yeah, had the like the foresight to be like, gosh,
welding's a lucrative position. Everyone's going to need a welder forever, like,
and she's just doing her job and he walks up
and starts. Anyway, it was very brutal, that's all I know.
That's all I remember about it.

Speaker 8 (38:52):
But fantastic because you're you're you nailed everything. And just
to your point, the police said he quote had planning
to kill her for some time, and he allegedly said
he attacked her because quote he didn't like her.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
He didn't like her.

Speaker 8 (39:06):
Yeah, yeah, and he's charged with second degree intentional murder,
but prosecutors may upgrade it to first degree, So.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yes, yeah, that sounds warranted, especially if he did it
immediately went over and said I'd been planning to do
this for some time. It's very surprising to me what
the second degree same statute is, but it veries so
much in Minnesota. Yeah, it's different, never stay, it's different.

Speaker 3 (39:35):
But if he had been planned, if he planned, if
it's true that he planned on doing this for a while,
I'm very surprised.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
And it's not for sagree murder, you know what I mean? Likely?
Does that make sense?

Speaker 7 (39:46):
Like agreed?

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, although actually, and this is something honestly, we should
follow up and look into this because it specifically says
that he's charged with second degree intentional murder. So I
wonder if in Minnesota there's an intention murder statue. There
might be, and within that it's for a second third degree. Yeah, anyway,
let's let's feel sack and.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
You know, all I can always you know, upgrade the
charges if they find out, you know, throughout the course
of the investigation, they might find a piece of evidence
that shows maybe they have to have, you know, something
showing that he was planning on doing this or not.

Speaker 4 (40:20):
I'm not sure. It's really really horrific and that's all
I really know about it.

Speaker 3 (40:23):
But yeah, you know, I really appreciate Listen, those case
talkbacks like she just left are my favorites.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
I really are love those talkbacks.

Speaker 3 (40:34):
Out of all the talkbacks we get, those are my favorite, Like, hey,
did you guys know about this case? Because oftentimes, I
mean I just so happen to know this one, but
oftentimes no, And we find out the most interesting cases
from you guys. So keep those coming. Just download the
iHeartRadio app and hit the little microphone button and listen.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
If it's it's only thirty seconds.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
So if you need more time, just leave another one,
you know, like, if you need to keep going, just
another one.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
We'll play both.

Speaker 8 (41:01):
Yeah, yeah, I think those are great. Speaking of that, which,
do we have time for another one? Do we feel
like we can?

Speaker 14 (41:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Adam, to it up?

Speaker 7 (41:09):
Do it Adam.

Speaker 12 (41:10):
Hi, this is Shannon from Texas and Taha, this is
for you.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
I do not like in and out Burgner.

Speaker 4 (41:19):
Hang up on her down here.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
We have water Burger and they have the most amazing
French fries.

Speaker 10 (41:26):
He loose onion rings, So I'm with you.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
And also I did catch the tail end of what
you said.

Speaker 12 (41:33):
Yeah, I believe Taylor Swift is very overrated as well.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
I love you, guys. I love it was that what's
her name? Was that?

Speaker 7 (41:42):
Lynette? Is that what I caught? Because I am now.

Speaker 8 (41:45):
Best friend Shannon, Shannon, Shannon, thank you Shannon. I'm glad
someone going with me BFS forever.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Thank you all opinions, welcome and listen. It's so interesting
that again, Ta, how you saying you didn't like it
got in my head enough that we have us ate
it at my house right.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Well, I mean I have to give Shannon the credit.
I don't like in and Ounce French Rise. I don't
I like their burgers. So that's about it. But you know,
I really do hear a lot of people say Whataburger
is the best burger.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
One very good. I've never had one, and I've been
in Texas like a hundred times. You know.

Speaker 5 (42:24):
When I was whenever I go visit home in Texas,
they there was this is boring. For a period of time,
I was in Chicago and I would go home to
Texas and they just built in and outs in Texas.
So it's like, oh great, I get in and out.
Now that I'm in LA and I go back to Texas,
now I get Whataburger every time I go. It's really good,
but it makes you feel terrible, like, don't plan anything

(42:47):
after you Well.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
In Detroit, the special thing that we had was White
Castle at the time.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
In New York.

Speaker 3 (42:55):
Now they're everywhere, but that was like the big thing,
like Texas had Waburger, Detroit and those areas had White Castle.
And growing up, my my family would always call those
gut bombs like I was gonna Yeah. They were like
ten cents, you know, and you'd go in there after
a little night drinking and you would have your gut bomber.

Speaker 7 (43:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
My parents used to get bags of them.

Speaker 7 (43:17):
Oh I could eat like ten of them in one setting.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Like yeah, my sister and brother in law, that was
exactly the burger bombs after four am. Just I swear
that they might buy a bottom, like a hundred at
a time, their friends and just yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
I like their little the White Castle little chicken sliders.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
Oh no, that I haven't had. Oh they're the lush.

Speaker 8 (43:42):
They have another place similar in the South, like White
Castles is to the East Coast.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
Yes, crystals, Crystals. I've had crystals. It's really good, so good. Yeah,
I love crystals. Yeah, I go to I go to.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
New Orleans quite a bit, or I used to, and
I'd always go to Crystals and Norlans.

Speaker 7 (44:00):
Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
You know what're gonna say, it's so crazy to go
to New Orleans.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
Like they have the best food and I go to crystals, Like,
what's wrong with me?

Speaker 2 (44:08):
I was judging you in my head. I wasn't having,
you know, but shripping grits.

Speaker 3 (44:15):
You know.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
I'm like, I was eating a crystal. It was just
like a quick thing anyway. Yeah, you gotta get the
dirty rice.

Speaker 8 (44:20):
Yeah, I believe just like this topic.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
Real quick. I was thinking with Thanksgiving coming up for
talk back Tuesday, do you guys what kind of sides? Okay,
that's Thanksgiving because that's a sword that people will die
on whether it's what should or should not be included.
I'm really hot about stuffing.

Speaker 3 (44:47):
Oh yeah, my friends make so much fun of me.
I don't listen when you stuff a bird and you
you know, like most people cook their stuffing in the
bird grosses me out.

Speaker 8 (44:56):
Yeah, I don't think you're supposed. Isn't there a rule
they change that? Because did they change it?

Speaker 2 (45:02):
It's nasty? Well it's supposed.

Speaker 7 (45:08):
I don't like that to the side, but I'm with you.
It doesn't belong to it should be on the side.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
And so growing up, my growing up, I mean, I'm old, okay,
so I'm I'm in my fifties now, and so growing
up my we would always have the stuffing in the
bird and I always would just get totally grossed out.
So I got really accustomed to stovetop, and if it's
not stove top, I.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
Don't want it. I'm ting I'm going to my friend Tiffany's.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
I'm going to my friend Tifany's and she's making a
beautiful stuffing and a thing of stovetop just for me.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
I'm oh, isn't that so sweet? That's very find isn't
that so sweet? What's your side of choice? So simple?
Mashed potatoes? Oh yeah, that's love. But I just I
love them. I yeah, it's a ritual. But also the stuffing,
which you would not like, but I do bulk Italian
sausage and some opera colle. Yeah, just sage and it's

(46:05):
I come over, Yeah, please do. It's my aunt's recipe
and we all make it.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
You guys seen about this the trend right now by
disposable muffin tins, and that's what people are putting there. Yeah,
that's what people are putting leftovers in. And to have
their friends go home in a little little.

Speaker 7 (46:24):
Six pack, little six packs of those, Yeah, good, love.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
It, little six pack anyway, stick around coming up after
the break, a chilling twist in the Celeste Reva's case,
plus the latest newly identified serial killer, and don't forget.
Call us at eighty eight thirty Girl on Crime to
share your thoughts on any of tonight's topics. This is

(46:54):
your Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we're talking true crime
all the time. I'm body moving and I'm here with
Purdue U, Sir Extraordinary Courtney Armstrong and producer Taha. Look
at I'm surrounded by producer. Somebody help me, Somebody help me.
I'm being held passes by the producers. Don't forget. If
you miss any part of tonight's show, you could always
catch the podcast.

Speaker 4 (47:14):
We also want to hear from you. Give us a
call at eighty eight three.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
One Crime, or get with us on socials at True
Crime Tonight's Show on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime
Tonight on Facebook. You know, listen, Sometimes you don't want
to call. Sometimes you just want to send somebody a message.
That's where you can do it. Send us a message,
We'll read it on the air. Let's go ahead talk
about why.

Speaker 10 (47:35):
Hi, ladies, Ali from Orlando. I had a question. You
guys are talking about David the pop star and how
he was ripped off of his world tour when this happened.
When you say ripped off of his world tour, did
he decide to cancel his world tour or did someone
force him to cancel his world tour? Just Carrie us, Thanks,

(47:58):
have a good night.

Speaker 8 (47:59):
Important to see right, Yeah, Ali, that's a good one,
very well. I question time that one. We did a
little research. Think well, let's think ava. Avid did some
research and pulled some fast for us and talked about
it a little bit. But just as a reminder, David
the pop star who has been involved with the whole

(48:19):
case involving celestrit As Hernandez, the fourteen year old who
was found in the trunk of his car, He's.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
A pop star.

Speaker 7 (48:28):
He was up and coming.

Speaker 8 (48:29):
A lot of us didn't know his music until then,
and so he started. He was, you know, on on
the horizon to move up to be something big, and
he had just.

Speaker 7 (48:37):
Started a huge world tour. So after that incident, the
remaining dates of his tour were on September nineteenth, and
that was eleven days after her body was found. There
was no confirmation that he was legally forced to cancel,
so they pulled the plug and everything was canceled, you.

Speaker 8 (48:58):
Know, David, Well, that's that's the question mark, whether it's
his team or whether he chose to do it. So
we don't have anything specific, but we all know for
the fact that his label put the album release on
pause and a lot of the promotional activities were suspended.
That to me says the label did it and tries

(49:18):
to probably pull the world for.

Speaker 4 (49:20):
Or the sponsors or you know something.

Speaker 7 (49:22):
Right.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Well, yeah, because in the same breath you're promoting a
concert and hearing about, you know, a deceased minor.

Speaker 8 (49:31):
That's not a good And I remember when this first happened,
he still had just done a show or two and
it felt a little odd. It just felt in towards
me that anything was still going on. So if I
had to bet money, it's that he wanted to continue.
But someone said, this is not a good look.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
You need to sup it's optically we have to stop.

Speaker 8 (49:51):
Exactly so, right, But that makes sense. That's that's what
I think. But that was a great talk back. And
I think there's some news that everyone has been talking
about the team has said about right Courtney, what's going on?

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Okay, So this is controversial and will underline that it's
TMZ is reporting this. Who TMZ does largely absolutely phenomenal, amazing.
It's kind of crazy, actually, it really is. They break
it before and break very quickly. Yeah, an act and
very largely incredibly accurately. This one's a little controversial. In

(50:25):
a TMZ report, the claim is that the body of
poor fourteen year old Celestevas Hernandez had been frozen, so
of course celest reevs. Hernandez. She has been missing since
April of twenty twenty four from her home in Lake Elsinore.
It's another place in Los Angeles. She was thirteen at

(50:48):
the time, and it was September of this year when
she was discovered inside the front trunk of David the
pop Stars Tesla authorities are investing getting her death as
a homicide and if you guys remember that took a
really long time to even get to it being called
a homicide, and apparently the focusing on her connection to

(51:14):
musician David as a possible accomplice, as well as suspicious
activities linked to the handling of her body. So what
do you guys think about this like, Boddy, what's your
knee jerk? I don't.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
I mean, so my knee jerk is that they think
she was frozen and wow, that's interesting. So they would
be able to tell from her tissue. Right, listen, Timu
Joseph is on the case. Okay, that's me. They would
be able to tell from her tissue had she been
frozen and for lack of a better term, thought right, yep,

(51:51):
you she would. They would be able to tell from that.
So if if what they're saying is true, again that
this is LAPD sources, right, we don't have an official
statement from the LAPD. And another thing that is really
interesting is Stephen Fisher, the private investigator that was hired
by the landlord of the home that David was staying in,

(52:12):
has been pretty like spot on with everything so far
and what he is saying on his Twitter, and you
can go to his Twitter and look at it. It's
sf Underscore Investigates on Twitter, and he's saying that TMC's
getting trolled. He's saying, you know, like, no, this is
not correct. He's not saying what he does know, but

(52:34):
he is saying that this information is correct or incorrect. Now,
I don't know how he would know, you know what
I mean, Like, I'm just I'm just telling you what
I'm seeing right like out on the internet.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
And TMZ is saying this is our sourcing, and our sourcing.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
Is LAPD, you know within the LPD, and Fisher, who's
working on the investigation on behalf the landlord where David lived,
is saying, no, that's not true. Well yeah, he's saying
they're being trolled.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
Well yeah, the specific quote, so we're not mincing his
words of is watching a rag tabloid get trolled would
be hilarious under almost any circumstance beside at the expense
of a teenager. So that is what he said. There's David.

(53:21):
There is no mention of seless Revaz to be clear,
but you know.

Speaker 8 (53:25):
And body just because people out there, you know, someone
an older person may not know what trolled is, like
what exactly what is happening with that?

Speaker 7 (53:32):
Is that someone just doing that.

Speaker 3 (53:35):
Some people do things like that because it makes them
feel powerful. Some people make up stories people. You know,
there's actual troll teens wow, that try to come up
with the most you know, they sit in discord all
day long and try to get their story whatever story
they want out there, they just want people to repeat it,

(53:55):
So you have to be really careful. Yeah, we have
to be really careful. In fact, when we start doing
live Collins, it made me really nervous because I was like, oh, controlled,
you know, so people just make stuff up. But the
thing is is TMZ I just can't imagine that. I mean, listen,
they are a rag right they are, but they have

(54:16):
been pretty good with a lot. You know, they were
the first to break Cody Kobe Bryant. They were the
first to break that.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
They have.

Speaker 4 (54:26):
I mean, yeah, listen, they are They do gossip about
celebrities one hundred percent, but they also do kind of
have breaking news that is pretty spot on.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Their accuracy is unbelievable. So just a few of the
details to share what has been reported by TMZ, so
again that selest body was partially frozen, and that this
is rough her decomposing body parts, including a head and torso,

(54:56):
which indicates they were separated, had been thawing out in
the front. The front trunk and the frozen state may
make it difficult for Corners to establish an actual cause
of death.

Speaker 7 (55:10):
I guess.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
I mean it's been reported by We'll have to ask.

Speaker 3 (55:15):
Yeah, yeah, can we put a pin in that to
talk to Joseph about that when he has return Yeah, I.

Speaker 8 (55:21):
Would love to do that because also, like I was
just trying to, you know, unpack it a little and
just if this was true, like why and when would
the frozen heart come about? Is it maybe she died
they put the body in a storage place because this
is during that heat wavy time period, and maybe they
put that there, but who knows. It's something that we
can sort of talk to him with a little bit

(55:41):
about since there's even a logical not that there's anything
logical about this at all, but any theory as to
why someone would have tried to put the body there
in a fezer or whatever.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Yeah, right, So I think it's a great idea of body.
So we'll table it. Except there's one one interesting non
forensic thing. TMZ said that investigators are looking into a
specific trip that David made and this was to a
remote area of Santa Barbara County. So that's about an
hour and a half from Los Angeles, and that was

(56:12):
in the spring of twenty twenty five. It was in
the middle of the night, and he reportedly spent several
hours in that remote area, so we'll see this is
what's being We don't know it is any kind.

Speaker 7 (56:26):
Of a fact.

Speaker 4 (56:27):
I mean, let's can we talk about this.

Speaker 7 (56:28):
Yeah, yeah, let's unpackica.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
So the idea is that he goes to this remote
area in Santa Barbara and does what because so less
it was she wasn't buried out there right, correct, Like
what is he doing out in you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (56:47):
Unless maybe that's where this happened.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
Although if something like this did happen and she was dismembered,
it would be a lot longer than several hours. I
mean it would meanwhile, So I don't know, I don't
know what, listen, I don't know what to believe the
same unless we hear something from LAPD, I'm just like,
right at this.

Speaker 8 (57:04):
Point, goos crossed we hear something soon from them, because
I feel like we have been going on about this
since the summer, and I would love to know something
by I'm sure the family would like to know.

Speaker 7 (57:14):
Something by the yeah, the holidays at least.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
Yeah, I'd like to know what the you know, the
listeners think, what do you know? What do we do
in situations like this? You know, who do we believe
you know, and there's nothing. There's nothing to look up,
there's nothing really to you know, there's nothing to get verification.
So give us a call eight at eight thirty one
crime or hit us on the talkbox in the iHeartRadio app. Courtney,

(57:37):
I understand that there's another case. Let's talk about Kevin Leno.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Yeah, Kevin Lino. So he's a man, he's thirty eight
years old, and he was already serving time for two murders. Well,
this is what we were referring to as a potential
new serial killer because while serving Timeleno has been charged
with killing two additional men in Massachusetts. So this leads

(58:04):
authorities to label him as a serial killer.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
So they're so, okay, So he's in jail for two
already correct, correct, and then he's been linked to additional.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Correct, he's been charged. He's been charged. Oh, he's been charged, correct,
with killing two additional men in Massachusetts. Okay, all right,
let's hear about this. Yeah, Soleno previously was convicted for
murdering normand Verrier, and this was in Boston back in
twenty twelve, as well as Jack Berry in Missoula, Montana

(58:38):
in twenty fourteen. Obviously that's very far apart from each other.
So at the time, all three men were experiencing homelessness,
so both the perpetrator Lino and his two victims. So
now the update is Lino is accused of killing Gary
Malanson in twenty ten and Douglas Clark also in twenty twelve,

(59:05):
and this is just a sad state of affairs. So
apparently both of those two men as well were homeless,
and investigators are suspecting that there may be additional victims.

Speaker 7 (59:19):
And remind everyone body for a serial killer, is there
a specific number?

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Is it three? It varies?

Speaker 3 (59:27):
I mean, it depends on what texts you look at,
but it's anywhere two or more.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
Sometimes people say three or more.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
Oftentimes it's three or more with a cooling off period.
And this would fit that one hundred percent because we
have twenty ten, twenty twelve, in twenty fourteen, right, these
are all the different years. I'm just wondering do we
know yet. I don't know that it's been even released
of what links all these together.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
So I know that in twenty ten victim Gary Milanson,
he was allegedly killed by Lino, and this was at
a homeless encampment and Lino reportedly struck the victim repeatedly
with a metal baseball bat, and this was after Leno
had gotten upset that fires were being lit and drawing

(01:00:18):
unwanted attention. And you know, it's interesting because they are different.
In twenty twelve, there was another conviction. It's a little
unclear what the manner was, but yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
I just wonder if it's like, is it the victim
like being homeless, Like is there DNA?

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Like why do they think.

Speaker 7 (01:00:43):
He's connected to all of them?

Speaker 8 (01:00:44):
Yeah, we're gonna have to look into whether it was
a DNA connection or him.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
I don't think it's DNA.

Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
And the only reason I say that, and I'm bringing
this up intentionally, I want people to start thinking, like
when we're talking about these things, I want people to
start thinking like, it can't it's probably not DNA because
it was and they ran it through Cotis he would
have appeared, right, so probably not. So it's okay, you know,
start thinking like that, right, Yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 7 (01:01:14):
The lessons continued, right, moved also.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Here and the them o the modus operande is is
different again. That was used and then in another situation,
apparently Lino intentionally gave Douglas Clark a fatal dose of
heroin referred to as a hot shot, which that is
actually a new term for me. So I'm not sure

(01:01:40):
if it's personal connections or people. It's probably the victimology.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
They're all homeless and their risk profile, right, like, okay, And.

Speaker 8 (01:01:50):
I was reading some of the article. Investigators later learned
that he was linked to some of these. So I'm
wondering if because he's incarcerated, maybe he's talked to someone
else there.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
I don't know that there could be.

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
Yeah, I'd love to put I'd love to put this
on our radar to keep following, Yeah, as it develops,
you know, so that we can each to talk about
it and you know, explore with the audience some of
the evidence and you know, things that they're finding. Me
because like, if this truly is accurate and a serial
killer discovery, like this is a big deal.

Speaker 7 (01:02:22):
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Absolutely, Well keep it here because coming up, Buddy will
be schooling us on metadata and we have that and
a lot more on True Crime tonight. Welcome back to

(01:02:45):
True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk true crime
all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here with my
buddy buddy move in and don't forget if you have
missed any part of the show, No Sweat. You can
always catch us on the podcast and we want to
hear from you. Always give us a call. We're at
eight to eight through One Crime, or you can always

(01:03:06):
get with us on socials. We do read and love
your dms and that is at True Crime Tonight's show
on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook.
And now I want to dive immediately into our scientific
study with professor Body. Move in Body.

Speaker 7 (01:03:24):
I'm excited. I've been so excited about.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Rime Love with Body. It's a sitement. I love it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
So we're you know, listen, I'm not qualified to talk
about a lot of things, but I am qualified.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
To talk about data.

Speaker 3 (01:03:39):
Yeah, that's one thing I actually am qualified to talk about.
And you know, listen, data can solve crimes. I'm convinced time.
I believe in the timeline as an investigative tool, and
I believe data when you look at it can solve crimes,
not only in the minute details such as metadata or
you know, a big picture looking top down on a

(01:04:01):
ton of data. I believe it's essential and crime solving actually,
But so let's get into metadata. What in the heck
is metadata? And how does it affect me? Like, how
do I you know?

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
What is it?

Speaker 7 (01:04:12):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
Medadata is just data about data. It's literally that's all
it is. So it provides additional information about a particular
piece of data, helping to organize, manage, and understand the information.
So one of the examples that I like to use
most when I talk about metadata when people don't know
what it is is think of the metadata.

Speaker 4 (01:04:31):
Like a book, a hard copy of a book.

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
You open it up and the first thing you see
is like a table of contents, right, And it's like,
that is metadata because it's describing how you know the
book is organized, how you can find something easily, or
an index you know, with different words and what page
those words.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
You know are on. Sure, that's metadata.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
It's a data that describes how to find then locate
the data in that book. Right, that's table of contents
or an index. That's what metadata is. For an example,
on your phone or your computer, call logs and text
messages your phones call history is a perfect example of
structured metadata. There's caller ID who called you. There's the timestamp,

(01:05:20):
the duration, you know this data. Now if I look
at Courtney's phone and I see that she was on
the phone with Paha for three hours. I don't know
what you guys were talking about, but I know you
were on the call, right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
It was largely about you, but of course.

Speaker 7 (01:05:36):
It was.

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
Of course that's metadata. Okay, understood it, so totally that
makes sense. Right, So there's this is why it's important
though for me, right, So metadata can solve crimes, GPS
data placing a suspect at a crime scene, GPS coordinates
embedded in digital photos. For instance, when we were talking

(01:06:02):
about this last week to how you mentioned Luca Mgnata
and how we placed him, you know, at certain places,
and that was because he uploaded photos to websites, not
social media, but to websites that left his EXIF data
and metadata intact and we were able to look at
not only where the photo was taken via GPS, but

(01:06:24):
what kind of camera it was, what the serial number was.
I was even able to tell it was a pink camera,
do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
Like, yeah, you could tell.

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
Wow, I was only able to tell it was a
pink camera because I had the make and model of
the camera, and then I also had a photo of
him taking a photo in a car and there was
a reflection I could.

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
See the That's incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:06:50):
It basically validated the data that I had found though,
like I knew, Okay, this is definitely the camera. You know,
it helped solidify things. It can It can be used
to track movements. Law enforcement can use cell phone power data,
Wi Fi router information to reconstruct a suspects movement and
travel patterns over a period of time, identifying their personal

(01:07:12):
habits and relationships. So I can look at Weltaha always
goes to creator Joe's every Tuesday, you know, so I
know it just it provides context to stuff. File authentication
and timelines. I talk about timelines a lot. It verifies
evidence and integrity metadata documents, a file's origin, creation date,

(01:07:33):
what program was used to create it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
You know this this.

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
Document was created a Microsoft word, It was created by TAHA.
It was done on this computer, and it was done
on this date. There's five hundred and seventy six words.
You know those kinds of things.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
And you know it also can identify devices like I
just said, you know what the with the camera, it
can help. Yeah, it can put physical device information in
the hands of a suspect.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
And then does that Yeah, so then if you put
the you know it's the canon three sixty nine to
four making this up, and then a suspect happens to
have that exact exact right.

Speaker 3 (01:08:11):
Because sometimes some exted data will also have the serial
number of the camera that photo. Oh wow, which is interesting, right,
It's very interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
So there's a couple of cases.

Speaker 8 (01:08:22):
I was going to ask one quick question, I mean,
jumping too far ahead, but like, as you're saying all
of this, it makes me wonder, then criminals also know this.

Speaker 5 (01:08:32):
Cha.

Speaker 7 (01:08:32):
Have they gotten a little savvy about how to absolutely
can you change?

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
Yes? Metadata and metadata can be changed.

Speaker 3 (01:08:39):
So what Okay, listen, when you you you're a criminal,
I'm coming in.

Speaker 4 (01:08:44):
I'm a cop. I'm taking all of your electronics.

Speaker 3 (01:08:46):
Right when I get back to the lab, the forensics,
you know, data lab, I'm going to hash. I'm going
to extract everything from the computer. I'm going to hash it.
It's called a hash and it's basically a serial number. Listen,
I'm oh, I'm over simplifying something very complicated.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
Please, but it's basically a.

Speaker 4 (01:09:02):
Serial number that it's a snapshot in time.

Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:09:06):
Now we go to court, right, and the defense brings
up the evidence to digital evidence. If that hash doesn't match,
I know you've altered to metadata, but if you have
altered the metadata prior to me running that hash, I
may never know.

Speaker 7 (01:09:24):
Interesting, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
Well, and that it's interesting that you brought that up, taha,
because in the Ellen Greenberg case, which we've spoken so
much about, and you know, happy to bring her name
up in honor of Joseph this Sunday, But that was
something in watching the documentary that one of I believe
it was the investigators was saying, since the her devices

(01:09:46):
were taken that metadata, that they couldn't trust if certain
searches were planted or things that could make her look
like he was having suicidal ideation, and they just couldn't.
They didn't know period the end, if it was authentic
or not. Right.

Speaker 3 (01:10:02):
Another really good example that we've been talking about fairly
recently is Epstein and Epstein's death with the camera. The
remember the surveillance of the cell, and there was like
a minute missing minute, and those forensic analysts viewed the
video information and it was found that it was edited
by this person on this date.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
And that's another data that's all metal. Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
So metadata is you use it and you don't even realize,
and it's super important in helping figure things out. There's
two cases that I want to talk about that I
think I think most people know about, but they might
not really understand how.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Metadata, like.

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):
I wouldn't say, solve the cases, but they definitely impacted him.
They definitely impacted him. The first one is BTK, and
I've talked about this. People are probably tired of me
talking about this, but one of the Denist Raider, one
of the most prominent examples of metadata being crucial to
a criminal case is BTK. This led to the arrest

(01:11:02):
and the conviction of Denis Raider. For over thirty years,
Denis Raider terrorized which you talked to Kansas, binding, torturing
and killing ten people while successfully evading law enforcement and
taunting them. He was known for sending these taunting letters
and packages to police and the media, but he stopped
for a period after nineteen ninety one. Well, in two

(01:11:23):
thousand and four, he sent like a taunt to the
police department. He resumed contact with them. Confident that digital
communication would be untraceable, he sent a floppy disc to
the local TV station with a Microsoft word document containing
a letter okay the digital fingerp okay. The investigators used
the data recovery in forensic analysis techniques to examine the

(01:11:47):
metadata embedded within that word document on the disc, and
they uncovered this information that rewarded super critical information. The
metadata contained two cases to really keep information. The document
was last modified by a user named Dennis. So that's
who was logged into the computer, right, and that the

(01:12:07):
document was associated to the Microsoft woord program that was
purchased by the christ Lutheran Church.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
Oh that's right, Yeah, that's right, that's right. And of
course d not of course, but Dennis Raider was someone
who was he was very active in the church, was
on the boardard.

Speaker 3 (01:12:30):
He was on the board. So you know, he logged
into like Windows Courtney like you know, he was. He
was logged in his denis. He typed up a word
and saved it to a floppy thought he was super
smart guy, right, and sent this floppy disc.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
That basically is how he got caught. Oh my gosh, well, listen,
we would love to hear your thoughts, whether you have
thoughts on BTK or Metadata or any of the above,
give us a call where at eight A eight three
one Crime and it would be our thrill and pleasure
to speak with you. And I think you have another
case to talk about. Bring it another one.

Speaker 3 (01:13:03):
And we haven't talked about this case on the show,
but it was one I was obsessed with, like my mom,
and I took like a week off from work to
watch this trial.

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
I love Jody Arias.

Speaker 3 (01:13:14):
Do you guys remember Jody arias smam She And this
was a really highly publicized trial in twenty thirteen and
it was a fort you know, jodyo Arius was charged
with murdering her ex boyfriend Travis Alexander, and Metadata played
a pivotal role in discrediting her shifting claims of innocence

(01:13:35):
and self defense.

Speaker 4 (01:13:36):
Her story changed like three or four times.

Speaker 3 (01:13:38):
Okay, that's right, Yeah, like of what what happened that day?
First she wasn't there, and then she was there and
he attacked her, and yeah, okay, AnyWho they found a camera,
a digital camera investigators found in a washing machine at
the crime scene. Okay, and that was Jody's camera that

(01:13:58):
had she attempted to stroy. She thought by washing it
it would destroy this evidence. Forensic experts recovered deleted images
from the camera's memory. Okay, so she's taking photos, right,
and then as she's taking photos.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
She attacks Travis.

Speaker 3 (01:14:16):
The camera drops onto like the floor and continues to
take photos. And you can see in the series of
photos that she had attacked Travis and killed him. There
was blood on these photos, you can see. I mean,
it's it was horrific. And she picked up the camera

(01:14:36):
apparently at some point saw what had happened and tried
to delete those images and then threw it in the
washing machine. While investigators were able to restore that information.
And okay, fine, that's but here's what metadata did. It
gave them the timeline because on the photos you know,
of course, are timestamps of when those pictures were taken.

(01:14:58):
You know, it gave a really good timeline of what
had happened. That the time stamps were critical, and it
contradicted her alibi. She initially told police she was not
there on the day of the murders. The metadata approved
she was with Travis, which is her ex boyfriend, at
his home on June four, of two thousand and eight,
and it documented the events of that unfolded. The recovered

(01:15:18):
photos included a sequence that documented some sexual activity between
the two, followed by pictures of Alexander in the shower
immediately before his death. For those that know the case
or that don't know the case, Travis was found in
his shower and it pinpointed the exact time of murder.
The final photos of a living Alexander were time stamped

(01:15:39):
at five twenty nine pm that day. Photos taking just
moments later were unfocused image captured during the attack showing
Alexander profusely bleeding on the bathroom floor. This metadata created
a clear object timeline of the murder, so it was
very colcala. And then they pulled all the emails and

(01:16:00):
text records. UH forensic analysis of all of the electronic
communications from both Jody and Travis Alexander the devices, you know,
provided context for the crime and undermined her claims of
self defense because she was saying that he was attacking
and raping her right which was just not true. The

(01:16:22):
recovered emails and text message documented this like super crazy
folatile nature of their relationship and suggested that Jody was
kind of obsessed to Travis because she would providing a
completely different story.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
She seemed deeply obsessed because we yeah, you know, we've
we've covered this story and it was a joke when
we first started the show back in June about Kirk Nurmi,
her defense attorney, because I would quote him all the time.
Love but Jody Arius, yes, like you're saying a little obsessed,
and she was.

Speaker 3 (01:16:56):
She was totally crazy. But so yeah, that those twos are.
There's more, but those two are kind of famous and
people know them and and I think people overlook how
this metadata is so important. The first thing I do
when I'm trying to validate something is I try to
see if there's like a photo, for instance, I try
to see if there's extif data or metadata attached to it.

(01:17:20):
A lot of the times when you upload pictures to
social media like Instagram or Twitter or Facebook, it's going
to strip metadata. So if your images are coming from
social media, don't even.

Speaker 8 (01:17:30):
Bother Oh okay, that won't have that info and imbedded
at it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:34):
It's a protection for you, right like it didn't used
to They didn't used to strip the metadata, but now
they do.

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):
Oh wow, do that is.

Speaker 8 (01:17:42):
That because oh well, because it was probably giving away
too much.

Speaker 2 (01:17:45):
Way, it's way too much info. Yeah, you know exactly where,
exactly exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:17:51):
So yeah, metadata is super valuable, but it's not like
trustworthy on its own.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
It's like a layer of evidence. Consider it like a
layer of evidence.

Speaker 3 (01:17:59):
Right. It can be wiped, it can be overwritten, it
can be faked. And that's why it's treated as a
clue and not a conclusion.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Oh wow, heverybody move in. I feel so knowledgeable. Listen,
keep it here because coming up we have your talkbacks, questions, theories.
We're diving into all of them on True Crime Tonight,
and honestly, give us a call of you on chat
for a minute eighty eight to three one Crime.

Speaker 3 (01:18:38):
This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
in true crime all the time. I'm body moving and
I'm here with True Crime. Listen, I cannot speak. I'm
here with True Crime producers Courtney Armstrong and Tah I'm
so happy Tahs here.

Speaker 2 (01:18:53):
Don't forget.

Speaker 3 (01:18:53):
If you miss any part of tonight's show, you can
always catch the podcast. We also want to hear from you.
Give us a call at eight eight eight three one
Crime or get with us on our socials at Tree
Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime
Tonight on Facebook.

Speaker 2 (01:19:07):
All right, what do we want to do? Some talk
about it?

Speaker 15 (01:19:12):
What's do some Hi lady, this is Hailey calling from
Australia and gentlemen as well. Thank you so much for
your show. I just absolutely love it. I think with
the Jeff's case in America, unfortunately, money still talks. You've
only got to look at some of other sporting people
that have got away, you know, USA Gymnastics, how long

(01:19:34):
they got away with that.

Speaker 14 (01:19:36):
I think it just sort of highlights how some jurisdictions
just don't see sexual assault as being important.

Speaker 2 (01:19:48):
And it really frustrates me.

Speaker 15 (01:19:50):
I'd be very concerned about this particular guy as to
what happens to him in the future.

Speaker 7 (01:19:59):
That's good.

Speaker 8 (01:19:59):
Yeah, And if Stephanie were here, you know she would,
oh yeah, I have a lot to say about it.
But I have to agree with her that it feels
as though there's something in society where it's almost looked
at as I don't know, maybe because it's sadly male
dominated in so many ways, that this isn't as important
an issue and someone else in power gets so away

(01:20:21):
with it and it's brush from the carpet. But what
I do think is I feel like we're talking about
these cases a lot more people have become more vocal.
Social media has helped keep things alive and present, and
I think that swell that Stephanie talks about. I can
see it. I feel it like I don't think I

(01:20:41):
talked about sexual assault in my life publicly with people,
and now it's something that we all kind of talk
about the problems we see.

Speaker 2 (01:20:50):
Well, I think Jesse Butler case is sorry, buddy, go ahead, no,
please please.

Speaker 3 (01:20:55):
I was just going to say, I think, you know,
removing the shame and stigma from sexual assault, you know,
has really made people feel more empowered to talk about
what happened to them. And I feel like that is
so important, like that people understand that this wasn't you know,
anything that you did. There is just like getting mugged,

(01:21:16):
you know, or or or robbed at gunpoint, nothing you
did cause this. It's not your fault. There's no shame
to be had. It's okay to talk about and it's
okay to get to want to get justice for what happened.
I just think that removing shame from the equation has
been has been a big driving factor in the swell.

Speaker 15 (01:21:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:37):
I think that's exactly right. And also people are being
galvanized and more vocal about when justice is not served.
This Esse Butler case, yeah, is so horrible. He was
accused of raping to girls and battery and assault, and

(01:21:59):
he faced seventy eight years in prison and a judge
ultimately gave him some community service. That's it. And not
only have there been protests, thankfully, but the Republican state
representative Justin Humphrey his quote to go from more than
seventy five years in prison to one hundred something hours

(01:22:20):
of community service, that's sketchy as hell.

Speaker 4 (01:22:24):
I think this is worse than Brockburner.

Speaker 8 (01:22:26):
I agree, Yeah, the brock Turner. Thank you for reminding
everyone of that one.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
I really do. And now is this the guy?

Speaker 3 (01:22:33):
Let me ask you, guys, is this the guy that
was They did the body cam footage of him getting
invested with his mom, Yeah, and he was like, OK,
I want.

Speaker 8 (01:22:42):
To make sure and his mom was almost as any
mom would be. But there was something about it that
that just had this whole privilege.

Speaker 2 (01:22:53):
I agree, I totally agree.

Speaker 4 (01:22:55):
And they were so gentle with him too.

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
I was like, oh yeah, that's what stood out to me.
The police just would with kick.

Speaker 7 (01:23:00):
Gloves and kind of remind me just a smidgeon.

Speaker 3 (01:23:03):
I don't want the police to hurt anybody when they're
getting arrested, Like I never want to see people injured.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
And he wasn't resisting or anything like that. He wasn't
just it just they were. The way they handled him
was like, ugh, yeah, yeah, how about how he handled
those poor girls that there you go, that he assaulted
and choked and bruised. Right, and listen, his dad is
alumni of excuse me, his father worked as the director

(01:23:29):
of operations for the college football program and Oklahoma State University,
right right, so that.

Speaker 3 (01:23:38):
He was talking about having he was like a man
of some means, right, like some.

Speaker 2 (01:23:44):
Means and good old boys.

Speaker 8 (01:23:45):
And it was like, yes, it feels like these are
all the guys in the you know, gentlemen's club.

Speaker 7 (01:23:50):
They're all friends with each other. Get them off, don't
worry about it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:53):
Well if I were, if I were those victims, I
would be suing.

Speaker 7 (01:24:00):
Got him and hopefully they have a case.

Speaker 2 (01:24:03):
They have a case. I mean, he was convicted of
multiple charges grace assault. Right, So anyway, thank you for
that one. Talk back very much.

Speaker 4 (01:24:13):
Thank you for that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
Yeah, go to another one.

Speaker 7 (01:24:17):
Let's do it.

Speaker 5 (01:24:18):
Yeah, this kind of goes along with the point you're
just making there, So.

Speaker 2 (01:24:22):
Let's hear it.

Speaker 11 (01:24:22):
Oh Hi, my name is too and I'm calling from Texas.
Love your Guys' show. Quick question about in the Jessee
Butler case. Is there any way that the victims can
two not in criminal court, but in the other court
and get monetary I know, I know that it wouldn't

(01:24:43):
solve anything, but are they allowed to go and get
damages for pain and suffering? Just wondered about that. Again,
It wouldn't relieve their pain, but it would lead make
the perpetrator somehow suffer in some way, shape or form.

Speaker 2 (01:24:58):
Thank Yeah, it's so crazy. I just said that.

Speaker 4 (01:25:03):
I swear to god, I didn't know that one.

Speaker 3 (01:25:04):
Next Yeah, of course, Yeah, really good question. So of
course they can, damn it. You know, they can file
for intentional infliction of emotional distress. That would be what
they would be suing for. There are statute of limitations.
I think in California. Wait, wait where did this happen?

Speaker 7 (01:25:28):
This was Oh, Oklahoma?

Speaker 2 (01:25:32):
You said, Oklahoma, Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:25:34):
Anyway, there is a statute of limitations, but this doesn't
seem to fall with outside that and the person that
gets sued like the rapists in this case, there doesn't
need to be a conviction in order to sue. You
can sue anything. You can doe anybody for anything nowadays.
I mean this is this is like an actual case

(01:25:56):
like that they have. They can sue for pain and suffering, anxiety, depression,
medical bills that came out, lost income, impacts on their career,
even their social life. They can sue for any number
of things, and I think they would win.

Speaker 2 (01:26:13):
I think they would have a case.

Speaker 7 (01:26:14):
They probably will. I just did a quick just to
look up and double check on some things.

Speaker 8 (01:26:18):
Victims of families can file civil lawsuits seeking money damages
for anything from wrongful death, battery damages, assault, pain and suffering,
medical or funeral costs, loss of emotional distress.

Speaker 7 (01:26:31):
So there's a list of things.

Speaker 8 (01:26:34):
And they can also sue multiple parties depending on oh yeah,
stances like the employees or the part pretty owners.

Speaker 7 (01:26:40):
So I'm hoping these victims do that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:44):
Oh absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:26:45):
The most common one would be intentional infliction of emotional distress.
They had to have to show the defendant conduct was
extreme and outrageous, the conduct was intentional or reckless, it
caused severe emotional distress, and the distress is significant or diagnosable.
And sexual assault and rape almost always meet that threshold

(01:27:08):
for extreme and outrageous.

Speaker 7 (01:27:11):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:27:13):
This Yeah, this monster is strangling and brutalizing them on
top of the brutal act. Right, God, so great talkback.

Speaker 4 (01:27:22):
Thank you for this.

Speaker 3 (01:27:23):
Yeah, that is something, and you're right, it is not
going to make anything better necessarily, but knowing that, you know,
people that have influence like this usually value their money
more than anything else. Having to give some of that
away is painful for them, and for me that would
be helpful, you know what I mean, Knowing that I'm

(01:27:46):
causing my rapist pain.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
Yeah, all right, let's do it. Yeah, absolutely well. Listen,
this is true crime today. We're talking true crime all
the time. I'm Courtney up here with Body Move In
and we have had some really great talkbacks talking about
the case of the teen Jesse Butler, who got off
with a ridiculously late sentence. Give us a call, Edita

(01:28:11):
through to one crime and let's go to another talkback.

Speaker 16 (01:28:14):
Hi, Ladies Lea in Australia, just waiting for the latest
episode to drop as a podcast. I just wanted to
recommend a documentary that I recently stumbled on on Disney Plas.

Speaker 6 (01:28:25):
I think it's also on Hulu in.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
The US called Naming the Dead.

Speaker 16 (01:28:28):
It's a national geographic doco and it is all about
the use of genetic genealogy to find a name Joan
and John does.

Speaker 5 (01:28:39):
So.

Speaker 16 (01:28:39):
It's all about the DNA dough project.

Speaker 2 (01:28:41):
Well worth it, thanks, love it. Oh okay, I am
into that.

Speaker 3 (01:28:46):
So the Jen and John excuse me, gene and don
Joe project is so interesting. So they try to identify
victims that haven't been identified. And the only reason I
even know about them is because crime Con. At crime Con,
I think they were collecting samples from volunteers. And then

(01:29:08):
the next year when I went back to crime Con,
they had said that from the collection that they had
taken the previous year, they identified seventeen Jane does wow.

Speaker 7 (01:29:18):
Wow, yeah, Oh that's incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:29:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:29:20):
So this documentary sounds right at my alley.

Speaker 2 (01:29:22):
I love this stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:29:24):
My partner on don f with Katz, John Green, he's
the guy that you know I work with that's what
he likes to do in his free time. He likes
to go into the identifying John and jayde and Doe
like reddits and forms and whatnot help try and find
clues about people who are unidentified.

Speaker 7 (01:29:45):
I love that.

Speaker 8 (01:29:46):
Well, this is I wasn't familiar with it, but I
just quickly looked up and just for everyone out there,
Naming the.

Speaker 7 (01:29:52):
Dead is a docuseries.

Speaker 8 (01:29:53):
It premiered on National Geographic in August tewod of twenty
twenty five. The series follows the work of the d
in a Dough Project as Bodies Just mentioned, a nonprofit
forensic genealogy organization, as they help law enforcement agencies identify
u named and un identified human remains in the US.
According to the show's synopsis, there are fifty thousand bodies

(01:30:17):
lying unnamed and unmourned across America. That's huge. But yeah,
so that's a great series.

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
And yeah they're able to say, like, oh, this Jane
Doe is seventeenth cousin to Courtney Armstrong, and they start
building trees and then they're able to say, oh, this
is the daughter of.

Speaker 4 (01:30:41):
You know, Mary J.

Speaker 2 (01:30:42):
Blige. I don't know.

Speaker 8 (01:30:49):
Yeah, it's interesting that that is really interesting and yeah,
and I like any of those cases that you.

Speaker 2 (01:30:56):
Know, solve the problems the sol situation.

Speaker 7 (01:30:59):
And can get some answers for family member.

Speaker 3 (01:31:01):
You had CC more on that day, and this is
something that she is interested in as well as ath room.
They do a lot of Jane Doe identification. If you
follow any of them on Twitter, you'll see any number
of these people tweet out, you know, through the help
of you know, DNA and genetic genealogy, we were able
to identify Jane Doe eleven three and forty four as

(01:31:25):
so and so, and they'll post their picture.

Speaker 2 (01:31:27):
It's very interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:31:28):
It's very very interesting and bringing a lot of sersure.

Speaker 2 (01:31:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:31:34):
Yeah, because you know, a family just thinks, oh my
daughter ran away, you know, seventeen years ago.

Speaker 4 (01:31:41):
That's all they know.

Speaker 3 (01:31:43):
Yeah, yeah, I would I would suggest anybody missing a
family member to submit your your DNA to these these
these places.

Speaker 7 (01:31:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:53):
That's a great Loki.

Speaker 7 (01:31:55):
Yeah, and that was a great talk back. So we
appreciate you really got one.

Speaker 8 (01:31:59):
And definitely we have not yet amongst ourselves, we haven't
decided what.

Speaker 7 (01:32:03):
Our true crime and chill will be.

Speaker 8 (01:32:05):
But I think what our plan will be is on Tuesday,
because we've gotten a lot to your earlier point, body,
our audience really sends in some great suggestions and cases
to follow.

Speaker 7 (01:32:16):
We've gotten quite a few people who've suggested true crime
and chills.

Speaker 8 (01:32:19):
So I'm thinking maybe Tuesday we'll play a few decide,
and then over the holidays, after you eat your turkey
and everything, you sit back and watch it.

Speaker 3 (01:32:27):
I'm gonna let Courtney and Stephanie choose because I have
been like heavy handed with the true crime and chill
choices lately, like I've been wanting my my agenda to
be there, you like I have been choosing.

Speaker 2 (01:32:39):
Like the last four up.

Speaker 7 (01:32:41):
So I think I think, yeah choices before.

Speaker 2 (01:32:45):
Okay, I might and I might take it a little
bit lighter. So it can't be the West Wing. We
can't do well.

Speaker 7 (01:32:54):
The entire season.

Speaker 2 (01:32:55):
Yay, there's seven seasons.

Speaker 3 (01:33:00):
Yeah, no, I'm done for something lighter. I usually picked
pretty heavy ones.

Speaker 7 (01:33:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:04):
Yeah, but yeah, let's let's see what this is that
said we you know, several weeks ago we had done
The Perfect Neighbor.

Speaker 7 (01:33:14):
Oh yeah, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:33:15):
And I've been both reading and listening to podcasts just
of people talking about that and how impactful it was,
and it was a lot of what you know, both
Utah and your Body were saying about how hard it
was to watch, and you know, is it invasive versus
The point from the victim's mother of yes, look at

(01:33:36):
this and sit in how queasy you feel was kind
of the impetus. So anyway that but had.

Speaker 8 (01:33:45):
I was about to say when Body pointed out it
was like ourtel moment.

Speaker 7 (01:33:49):
Yes, today's society, so look.

Speaker 3 (01:33:51):
What these look what these people did to my maybe
yeah yeah, wow.

Speaker 2 (01:33:58):
Well listen, we thank you so much for being with
us this Sunday night. It was fantastic and we have
a lot coming up tomorrow. We've got the latest in
the Epstein, We've got some updates in David and slender
Man attacker has vanished, so we'll be getting into all

(01:34:19):
of that. Good Night, everyone, night,