Bryan Kohberger Pushes Back, the Sonya Massey Trial Begins, and the Louvre Heist

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I am
so lucky to be here with crime Analyst, my buddy
body movin. Stephanie is out tonight. She is having fun
with other friends.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
And I hope other friends.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
I thought that might get your eye.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
Listen, Stephanie, if you can hear me, we are your
only friends. Okay, get back here right now.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
I hope you don't hear us, and have a wonderful time.
And for everybody else. It is Wednesday, October twenty second,
and we have a stacked night of headlines. Idaho student
killer Brian Colberger is refusing to pay his court mandated restitute.
We will be breaking down his legal argument. The Louver
reopened today to the public. More information about this weekend

(01:08):
shocking jewel heist has been made public, and we're going
to go over that as well. The trial of former
Sagamon County Deputy Sean Grayson he's been charged with first
degree murder in the fatal shooting of Sonia Macy that
began today that trial, and body's going to fill us in.
A beloved Texas teacher has been found dead, very sadly

(01:28):
and it's a confusing, uncomplicated story. Her husband was arrested
after some really bizarre circumstances. We'll explore that as well.
Plus we are going to be discussing death and apartment
six oh three, what happened to Ellen Greenberg? And that
is for this week's True Crime and chill. That's right,
So body bring us in.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
Yeah, Brian Coberger, huh this oh, I sware this guy right,
so yeah. Brian Coberger's legal team is fighting an additional
twenty seven thousand dollars restitution requests from the victims' families,
while disturbing new details have been, you know, come out
about the nature of Kaylee Gonsalvas's post mortem wounds, you

(02:11):
know that have merged in the trial from her sister, Olivia.
Brian Colberger he is the former criminology PhD student. He
pled guilty in July of twenty twenty five to the
November twenty twenty two stabbing and murder of four University
of Idaho students. In exchange for avoiding the death penalty,

(02:32):
he accepted four consecutive life sentences, waived his appeal rights,
and agreed to pay significant criminal and civil financial penalties.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Right.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
We all remember it was something like two hundred and
thirty three thousand dollars, right.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Absolutely, And I think it's important what you just said
that he agreed to pay those penalties.

Speaker 3 (02:55):
Right. Well, there's an additional twenty seven thousand dollars now,
and they're balking at this amount. Okay, So his defense
team is challenging this new twenty seven thousand dollars restitution request,
arguing that the victims' families received public, significant public donations
via a GoFundMe. The contested amounts include a twenty thousand

(03:16):
dollars for Kayley gun Salvias parents and nearly seven thousand
dollars for Madison Mogen's mother related to travel and accommodation expenses.
Remember they have to travel from really far away to
go to these trials, and they had these gofundmes.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, right, they have to travel, they have to not
be working if anyone has pets. Yep, that's no joke.
Toward them. Yeah, the mental health, you know, I mean,
the costs are not just an airplane ticket.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Right, So the defense is arguing that the additional restitution
does not qualify as an economic loss under Idaho law.
They emphasize that Brian Koberger is serving life without parole
and has no means to pay it now or in
the future. A court filing stated that the consolists and
Laramie family that is, Mattie Mogen's mom and her husband

(04:07):
collectively raised over two hundred and seven thousand dollars from
three separate GoFundMe campaigns, and that is all true. That
is all very true. However, the notice he still has
to pay this restitution, Sorry, I'm having trouble finding my words,
is just so upsetting. The idea for a restitution, isn't
that Brian Coberger has the money, right, Like, that's not
the point. The point is he can't be having money

(04:31):
added to his books and living this great life of
luxury from commissary items. That's the point in my opinion,
that's the point, right.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
And also we've had Jarrett Farantino on before, best legal
expert out there, and we've talked about this because I
think I might have asked him, how in the world
are people who are in prison going to pay whatever
the astronomical amount may be. And you know, basically he said,
in almost all instances, good luck, You're not You're not

(05:03):
going to get it. But as you said, it so
that you then can't receive moneies on top of it.
But I take great issue with the defense calling into
question the victims' families go fund me.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
I do too, and you know I donated to that
go fund me. You know, when there was going to
be a trial, they needed help, right, They had no
idea they were going to it was going to be
a six month trial. You guys, okay, so you're a
family member. What are you supposed to do. You can't
work for six months, you can't. So when the trial
when he pled guilty and we learned there was no trial,

(05:39):
and they were like, we're going to try to figure
out how to get this money back, I was like,
keep it. I don't care. They should keep it, Like
no amount of money is going to make you feel
better by any you know, by any means, but if
it helps you, like sleep an extra hour that day
to get some rest from this tragedy. You've experienced, then
please keep it. That's my feelings as a donator who.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
Don't need one hundred percent, And I agree with everything
you just said and the same like, please let this
bring you any modicum of anything. Yeah, a sandwich you
don't have to make, right.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yeah, you know, if you want a pair of earrings
or to make you feel better, I don't care what
it is, right, I'm happy for you to do that. Right. So,
there's going to be a notice of restitution hearing and
that's going to be on November fifth at ten am
mountain time, and it's going to be to determine these issues,
and we're going to definitely be following up on that again.
The idea is they know Brian Coberger's not going to

(06:34):
be able to pay this, right, I mean obviously he
he doesn't have any money, and there's already a two
hundred and thirty something thousand dollars restitution that he owes
and like five thousand dollars for each victim for burial
expenses and whatnot. But that's not the point. The point
is that if somebody, some you know, whacked out fan
of his sends him two hundred dollars for his books.

(06:57):
The families and the state, I imagine, don't want him
to have that. They don't want him buying fuzzy slippers
right in prison. I'm that's my guess. That's my guess.
That makes sense. If you know, if you know, why
give us a call eight to DA thirty one crime.
I'd love to hear from you about it. Do you say, oh,
that's going to ask?

Speaker 4 (07:14):
Is there a world where they could ever go at
family like his family members?

Speaker 3 (07:18):
I don't think so. I mean, they would have to
file a wrongful death claim and it would have to
be civil kind of like by basically saying that whatever
the family did is responsible for what Brian Coberger did.
And I don't think that the family of Brian Coberger
has done anything wrong, you know what I mean? Like,
I don't know what they could have done, but I
do think they could go after I hate to say this,

(07:41):
but I do think they could go after wsu.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Oh right, Well, hasn't the groundwork been laid by the
Gonsalvez family for a potential civil trial.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
I know that they filed tortue claims against the Moscow
Police Department, and I maybe the city of Moscow and
the Idaho, the University of Idaho. I don't know if
they filed tort claims against WSU, and that would lay
the groundwork for the But they filed those tort claims
a long time ago, like maybe two years ago. Now

(08:17):
it's been a long time, so I don't know what
Shannon Gray has done. Shannon Gray is the lawyer for
the Consols family. I don't know if he's filed anything.
I haven't checked against WSU, but maybe I should, Maybe
I should check.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, I gotta say I'm still I am flabbergasted that
the defense team I am too, is waving a flag
over this. And honestly, the twenty seven thousand dollars that
they're now arguing about and bringing to court those moneies
will be spent on lawyers anyway. I'd have to imagine
by the end of the day.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
And it's probably costing thirty grand just to have this hearing.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
That's right, It's an odd sword to dieos.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
It makes me feel it almost makes me feel like
Brian Coberger himself is like no, and that this has
been his goal the entire time, to be a complete
jerk for you know, in causing absolute chaos the ripple
effect right to as many people as possible. Yeah, that tracks.

Speaker 4 (09:17):
I could see him being the jerk that says, no,
I'm going to do that, and I'm not going to
do it so right, although I'll be interested.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Speaking of Jarrett Farantino, I'd love to have him on
and ask him a couple of questions about this whenever
he has the time, because as counsel, where does your
where does your counsel end saying you know, this is
not a last decision because of what versus? How much
do you have to serve your client? Particularly if the goal,

(09:44):
and maybe this is part of it, is to not
have him have Coburger have any reason to argue about
that's correct, poor representation. Anyway, we'd love to hear your
thoughts on this. This is true crime tonight. We're on iHeartRadio.
I'm Courtney, I'm strong, I'm here with body moving to bodies, dismay,
Stephanie's out with other friends.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
Has a friend?

Speaker 2 (10:07):
I thought it was, but listen, we really would love
to hear your thoughts on the Idaho student killer Brian
Coburger and his counsel saying that they shouldn't have to
pay monies to the victim's family because they already got
that through gofundmes. So give us a call eight at
eight three one crime or hit us on the talk

(10:29):
back and body, can you fill us in about the
TikTok story.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Yeah, so, I just before I begin, I kind of
want to give a trigger warning for those who you
know might be triggered by this. You know, I'm going
to be describing some of the wounds that Kayleie received
and it's very upsetting. So this is your trigger warning.
Olivia's on call this. She is Kaylee's sister, and she's
been making a lot of TikTok videos. I follow her

(10:56):
on TikTok and she's been making a lot of TikTok
videos and she made one a couple of days ago
where she revealed that prosecutor shared images of Kaylee's wounds
with her. There was about twenty six images that they
shared with her that she had a meeting with them, Okay,
and in this meeting, she wanted answers and don't blame

(11:17):
her like when totally not the same, literally not the same.
But when my mom got diagnosed with cancer, I wanted
to know every thing, every detail, like every procedure, I
needed to know, and so I definitely feel like if
I was in Olivia's position, I would be the same way.

(11:38):
I would want to know everything. Okay, that makes sense,
so please there's no shade to Olivia for this. So
she revealed something very interesting in these twenty six images
of Kaylee's wounds. Some of them appeared to what she
described were They described to Olivia as experimental wounds. And
what an experimental wound is. We'll probably talk with this

(11:59):
with Joseph Scott Morgan, our forensic expert on probably on Sunday,
but just as a like, you know, let's give a
layman's talk, let's give a little, you know, our little
layman's explanation. So, an experimental wound in forensic pathology terms,
it refers to an injury inflicted by an assailant after
death or during the killing, and it's done not to kill.

(12:22):
It's almost if they're still alive. It could be torturous,
but it's it's seemingly to test or explore. Again, that's
why they call it experimental. The victims' bodies. They're sometimes
also described as manipulative, post mortem or symbolic wounds, depending
on the context and timing. They're often well, they're always

(12:43):
non fatal. They're often superficial incisions or mutilations applied intentionally
by the killer. Typically they're not consistent with defensive wounds
or the main cause of death. They're often found post
mortem or paramodem mortem, which is around the time of death.
They know this, They know that they're experimental because they

(13:04):
don't show any bleeding. Okay, so I was just wrapping
my head around it.

Speaker 4 (13:08):
So this is when like a victim is there, he's
sort of just putting like a knife in slowly or
gently to just attest it.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
I'm not plic I mean, I'm trying to be as
you know, cooth as possible. But if if there's a
person who is passed away, and let's say like okay,
imagine that you're a murderer, I don't know, like put
your mind in this position. Okay, when you're in the
midst of stabbing somebody, you probably don't really get to

(13:37):
visualize it all that well because you're in the middle
of this chaos, right So after the death, they might
want to see what that looks like. What does it
look like when my blade enters the skin? This is
my Layman's explanation. By the way, No, now it makes
more sense to me. So I guess it's very it's
very sadistic. It's very sadistic. Okay, So that's what those

(14:00):
experimental wounds are. And Olivia described her recent in person
meeting with the prosecutors as kind of traumatic. And I
can understand why. I mean, oh my god, they showed
her twenty six pictures of her lovely sister.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Oh horrible.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
But despite leaving the meeting with more respect, she left
the meeting with more respect for the prosecutors. But those calls.
Family remains critical of the plea deal and how the
case has been handled.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
No, it's complicated stuff, it really is. When we come back,
you're going to be hearing about the looves doors. They
are back open now and so are some of the
secrets of that breeze in Paris heist. Courtney silty murder
trial begins for the deputy charge in Sonya Mazie's death.
Keep it here True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 3 (14:54):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we
talk true crime all the time. I'm body and I'm
here with Top Sam Adam and Courtney. Don't forget. If
you miss any part of Tonight's show, you can always
catch the podcast. And we also want to hear from you.
Give us a call at eighty eight thirty one Crime
or get us on our socials at True Crime Tonight's
Show on TikTok or Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook.

(15:17):
But first, Courtney, we have an update on this thief
of the Louver. What's going on?

Speaker 2 (15:22):
Oh my goodness, So the Louver has reopened. The public,
I'm sure was thrilled and the investigation is intensifying. And
this is regarding Sunday's one hundred and two million dollar
jewel Risto.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Before before, yes, it was invaluable or priceless. Well, this
is the price that has been put on. On the
morning of October nineteenth, thieves executed a smash and grab robbery.
It took just minutes. And this was again at the
famed Louve Museum in Paris, and the stole eight jewel

(16:01):
encrusted royal artifacts in under four minutes. This all happened
in the Apollo Room, so it was a gallery housing
some of France's most historic imperial treasures. And get this,
the crime unfolded just under three hundred yards from the
Mona Lisa and happened the museum was open to the public.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
Oh my god. Now, now, Courtney, where were you on
October nineteen? I mean.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Ed secrets.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
Ed called you out, one of our listeners. He called
in last night and he wants to know where you were.
You've been taking some time off. He's very suspicious.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
I was indeed out on Sunday.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
He's like, huh, right now, did you guys see this video?
I just saw it recently, like, guess, yeah, I thought
it was fake. I had to check in with you guys.
So there's a video of the thieves and they're dressed
in all black and they've got like you can't they've
got like masks on, like black you know, schrisk like blakavas,
and they got these yellow vests on like they're like workers. Right,

(17:07):
Oh my god, it's scary. It's crazy.

Speaker 4 (17:09):
Well, I think if I had seen those vests, I
probably would not have paid attention to those people working, like, oh,
there's just workers.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
It would be sess of the bolla kavas, the mask
probably Yeah, you're right, well, but if you're working and
you're picking.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
Up dust or particles, from you're not buying it.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
I would yeah, like a full like if it's the
full face mask, is that what it is they have the.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, it's like the black schemes mask.

Speaker 4 (17:36):
Yeah, that's a little more sess than like, yeah, you know,
just a you know, that's.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
What it looked like from the video. I could be wrong,
but it looked like they were wearing full ski masks. Now,
if they were wearing like Pepa filter masks or whatever,
like you know, with the filters on the side, then
they'd be like, oh okay, you know, the dust and whatnot.
But these looked like black sche masks.

Speaker 4 (17:55):
Yeah, they look a little yeah, you would think something
unusual is happening.

Speaker 3 (17:59):
I thought it was a thought like I was being fooled.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
But really these days, investigators they're exploring the theory that
the heist may have actually involved an insider or someone
who has really intimate knowledge of the museum's layout, their
security weaknesses because of the speed and the precision of
the theft. And then the prosecutors have confirmed that the

(18:24):
thieves used a truck mounted freight lift, the kind you'd
used to move furniture, and that was to access the
second story window facing the sin so that lift has
had been rented under false pretenses and the operator was
threatened and forced to leave. The scene's interesting.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
So the fact that it was facing and I'm not
pronouncing this correct or nicely, the send the water that
runs through Harris, So because it was there, most of
the people the entrance, the main entry is on the
other side of the museum, so there is a lot
less foot traffic side. And then also we learned today

(19:10):
because we were talking about, oh my goodness, one of
those huge lifts, right, be so conspicuous, but because in
Paris so many of the people live in places with
really narrow hallways and stairs, they're incredibly common. Anytime anyone
moves pretty much they lift the furniture out and go
in through large French picture windows that open double wide

(19:35):
French windows.

Speaker 3 (19:36):
Okay, can I just tell you can try everybody way.
Before the show started, we were kind of going over
our notes and what we were going to say, and
we were talking about this lift, right, how did they
how did they do this? And then we found out, oh,
it's very normal to rent these lifts because people move
right and you've got to move in. And I'm like, okay, well,
how do they get in the house though, Like, how

(19:57):
do they get in the apartment? And Courtney was like,
probably the window And I'm like, you're telling me they
put like a queen bed through these windows. She goes, well,
they're French wind and I was like, oh my god,
are so dumb.

Speaker 4 (20:08):
Like like they opened the double ones, you know, the
double on the French window.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
Oh my god, you're so American?

Speaker 2 (20:16):
Right the fact, so, among among the items that were stolen,
there was an emerald set imperial crown from Empress Eugene
and that had over over thirteen hundred diamonds. And that
one was found just outside the museum. It was damaged

(20:37):
but intact, okay, And yeah, the remaining seven artifacts are
still missing.

Speaker 4 (20:43):
I wonder if that was the most expensive one, like
that sounds like it would have been the priciest one
that they dropped and lost.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, I haven't seen anything that details that breaks out
the eight different items, but yeah, that one.

Speaker 3 (20:59):
Sounds they didn't take any like paintings, right, So like
it definitely is for resale, right, like some kind of
chiseling down and resale. That's what it feels. You can't
you can't really resell the Mona Lisa, right right, right,
but you can resell Ruby's.

Speaker 4 (21:17):
Which someone I had dinner with a friend the other
day who said, I guess the Mona Lisa years ago
was stolen and that was one of the issues that
they really couldn't resell it. So I guess now at
this point maybe they target things that like, let me
get something that I can easily take and you know, resell.
But I also still have a feeling there are people
out there that have these private collections in their wealthy

(21:41):
billionaire islands or whatever that.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
I want this piece to keep. But who knows, who knows?
I even heard that. I've even heard conspiracy theories that
the paintings in the louver aren't even real, that the
fake ones are the fail, and that the real ones
are like you know, in private collections elsewhere. I've heard it.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Like it. But know when when you guys say that
about people with these collections, I'm totally picturing sort of
animals you shouldn't hunt. Yeah, and just like that creepy
vibe or creepy to me at least, what have that.

(22:23):
But there's a team of about one hundred investigators who
are working the case. They are going through surveillance footage,
they're processing the forensic evidence from the scene, they're mapping
out the suspects escape route. So there's a lot of
elbow grease being put into this. And the French president

(22:45):
has called the the the theft, an attack on the
country's heritage. Yeah, and they're not happy this is. They're
saying it's a you know, it's a major systemic failure. Yeah,
projects the negative image of France. So we'll keep you updated,
to be updated.

Speaker 3 (23:02):
It's pretty interesting to me. This is true crime tonight
on iHeartRadio. I'm body Moving and I'm here with Courtney
Armstrong and tah We've been talking about this lou He's
but we're going to move on to another subject. We
want to hear from you. Give us a call eighty
eight thirty one crime or hit us on the talkbacks
on the iHeartRadio app. Courtney, what's going on in Josie.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
This is a sad story.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
This one makes me angry. Actually yeah, yeah, myself box
a little bit.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
So there's a seventeen year old suspect and we're choosing
not to say their name. So a seventeen year old
suspect who's accused of fatally striking two other teens in
a hit and run. Allegedly, the suspect had swatted one
of the victims home twice before the murders. The victims

(23:49):
are Maria Neotis and Isabella Salis. They're both seventeen years old.
They were killed while riding e bikes. They were riding
e bikes to go of ice cream with one of
the families and on that journey they were hit by
this suspect. It happened at the end of September on
the twenty ninth, and he has been charged with two

(24:12):
counts of first degree murder and I was following the incident. Currently,
he is in custody. Both of the victims were high
school seniors at Cransford High. Maria was an aspiring cosmetologist.
Isabella was a gifted singer and a performer, and they
were just really beloved by classmates. What has the more details,

(24:37):
But what's your big first reaction body because.

Speaker 3 (24:41):
There's money to be had, Well, my big reaction is
he's the subject or the suspect is seventeen years old,
and I'm kind of wondering why he's not being charged
as an adult because they've charged younger kids with adult
crimes that have done less heinous things, and so I

(25:01):
wanted to know more about that. So I went and
researched it as best as I could, my little layman's
lawyer research, right, And here's what I found. So my
understanding is that the he's not being charged as an
adult because he's seventeen, Okay, And that's one of the
reasons we aren't saying his name because he's a minor,

(25:23):
all right, but he is. He has been charged in
juvenile proceedings for two counts of for surgree murder. The
prosecutors have not yet waived, which means they transfer the
case to the adult court. And they have not done
that and I'm going to put this in parentheses yet, Okay,
So it's possible. It is possible. So in New Jersey,

(25:45):
such a decision is discretionary, so the prosecutor doesn't have
to wave it and transfer it to the adult court,
but they can, but it involves a couple steps. Got
why he wasn't immediately charged in as an adult is
because he has seven ten years old and the case
is initially treated under juvenile court by default, so unless

(26:06):
the prosecutor seeks this waiver to move it to adult court,
it's going to stay in juvenile court. So we're gonna
have to see the What I did read was that
it's incredibly difficult to overcome once the court sees how
horrible this you know, case was. So my basically, what
I'm saying is if the prosecutor did decide to wave

(26:26):
and transfer it to adult court, it would likely be accepted.

Speaker 4 (26:30):
It would be because of the natures, right, Okay, that's right, right,
So that's.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
That's one of the things I was kind of upset
about because, you know, he showed we we've talked about
this case before, and he showed a lot of malice
prior to the you know, running these these girls down.
These kids, the girls, right, and he was on YouTube
and tiktoks kind of like making fun of them. He

(26:56):
squawwed them. The parents of one of the girls and
I'm sorry, I don't have in front of me, but
of one of the girls got a restraining order against him.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
Even Maria Neotis, thank you. Yeah that The Neodas family
was swatted twice in the month of September leading up
to the fatal crash.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
And let's not underestimate swatting somebody is so dangerous. We
talked about this with David's case and his parents being swatted.
It is so dangerous because, like, let me tell you something,
if somebody's knocking at my door, like you know, I'm
going to be freaking out inside, and I have weapons.
You never know, you never know what's going to happen.
If somebody rammed my door, my instinct is going to

(27:36):
be to reach for my gun, you know what I mean.
And the minute I start reaching for that weapon, I'm
going to get shot. It's so dangerous. So this guy
showed such malice leading up to it and then he
ran them down. Why is he being charged as a juvenile.
He should be charged as an adult. Yeah, it's infuriating

(27:57):
to me.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
Well, if you want to have you or fury raised.
During the second swatting incident, police arrived and the suspect
he was literally outside the Niota's poem and was then
released to his father. Yeah, that's insane because especially what
you just laid out.

Speaker 3 (28:19):
You know, my understanding is the police chief is like
his uncle.

Speaker 4 (28:22):
Yeah, his his uncle is the West police chief of Christopher.
But yeah, that seems that's the whole thing starting to
feel very the whole.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Thing seems just to me. Now. It should be noted
that the police chief doesn't have any say so on
how he's charged. That's all up to the DA, right.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
But and it stinks, Yeah, absolutely, And the uncle also
has come forth publicly and said that he paraphrasing basically
finds the whole thing deplorable. Does not condone any of this.
But the Kyota's family is conducting their own investigation, particularly

(29:03):
they want to understand the police response to prior incidents
involving the suspect. And I have a feeling that's going
to have a ton of play in this trial m
because I.

Speaker 4 (29:15):
Wonder if do the families I wonder if the victims'
families can have any I don't know, any say so
or help to sway the direction of how he's how
he's charged to you get where I'm going or.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
Yeah, I don't know that the DA will take the
families wanting And honestly, I don't know if the family
has spoken about him being charged as a juvenile, but
I do know that they're conducting their own investigation. But
that part that they're investigating is to understand the police
response prior, so like letting all this happen. He keeps

(29:50):
swatting us, he's sending pizzas, we've got an ro he's
driving by the house, like they're not really doing anything
about it. I think that's what they're more concerned about it.
And I get it. I totally get it clearly. Yeah, yeah,
so that's what they're looking into.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We talk true
crime all the time. Later in the show, we are
going to be discussing the Hulu doc Death and Apartment
six oh three, what happened to Ellen Greenberg? And that
is for this week's true crime and Chill. But for
now we're diving right into talkbox. Talkbox, let's go to

(30:24):
a talk back now.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
Please fre French.

Speaker 5 (30:27):
Hey, y'all, Jennifer from Texas. Sorry to ask, please don't
be mad.

Speaker 6 (30:31):
But what is the best way to best to get
if you are a newbie?

Speaker 2 (30:36):
Oh?

Speaker 6 (30:37):
Thank you so much, love you guys, love all that
you do.

Speaker 7 (30:40):
Keep it up.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
You're amazing, Thank you, good one. So she wants to
know the best way to investigate for beginners. Martie, do
you want to go first?

Speaker 2 (30:50):
Sure, I'll give you my perspective. Also, my perspective, Jennifer
is do not apologize for such a great question?

Speaker 3 (30:56):
Totally?

Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, that was some who I had to really have
that beaten into my head to not apologize while opening
the door into a room. See, I guess so much
of what I do is makes it a little easier
as a producer, so because I have a reason to
call people. But I'll just start by saying what I do.

(31:17):
If we're digging into a new story, It'll usually start
with some story that catches my eye for whatever the
reason may be, and I'll gather the articles and then
start looking really for any and all details. So whether
it's so and so, it could be really any person
attached to the particular crime story. They went to this school,

(31:40):
they worked at a pizza place, they were into ballroom dancing,
whatever it is. So actually, maybe if you have if
you have a story that's local to you, you even
could go and ask people, Hey, did you know so
and so. Another thing you can do is to get

(32:00):
Foye's Freedom of Information Act, So that is you file paperwork,
and it really depends it's case by case on who
sort of holds the paperwork. But anything that is publicly
available is just that it is publicly available records. You
have to request it. It doesn't often go fast. Sometimes

(32:23):
you get the right person at the right time. But
those are the top things on my head.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
Those are really good. So I actually give a workshop
on this specific subject at Crime cons Wow I didn't. Yeah,
yeah you didn't. Well I have it in a minute.
But yeah, so I kind of I can probably talk
about this as a whole segment actually, okay, But you know,
you start with a big picture. You start with a
big picture. You have a goal. Whatever your goal is.

(32:51):
Let's say somebody's harassing you online. Let's just say that, right,
you want to know who it is. They're using an
an anonymous account, so you start with the goal. You're
trying to find out who owns this account, So that's
the goal. Then you you basically make a list your
knowans and your unknowns. Right, it's a simple two column

(33:11):
list what you already have, maybe dates, user names, links,
things like that. You have to be very listen. I
take a very like serious approach to this stuff. Okay,
you have to be organized. Okay, so you start with
the big picture. That's number one Number two, establish like
a framework for searching. Begin with open source low tech.

(33:32):
You know, search Facebook, you know Google, use and use
learn how to use advanced search techniques on these sites,
like learn how to use qualifiers on Google. And then
and then you know, learn some of the tools like
the way back machine, you know, to look at what
a website looked like on this date right and how

(33:54):
it's changed and things like that. Learn about domain tools
like is and whatnot. But you really should learn is
about OCENT. That's O, S, I N T. In that
stance for open source intelligence, Courtney mentioned foyas and what
I'm talking about are the tools that let you search

(34:16):
the things that you want to search. So learn about OCENT.
I like to use the OCENT framework. You can just
google that and then it'll take you to a bunch
of different tools that you can look for things. And
then you know. The fourth thing, and probably the most
important is ethics and legal awareness. Only use publicly available data.

(34:39):
Do not access private accounts, you know databases. Don't try
to hack people because if you if you are being harassed,
let's say, and you you hire a hacker, let's say,
to hack the account legally, you're really not gonna be
able to do anything about it, right, So make sure
you know you're you're ethical to don't if you find

(34:59):
out who it is, don't blast them on social media,
you know, things like this. Be very ethical with it.
And that's kind of the little skinny of it. I
guess that's fascinating. It's so funny as you both describe it.
It feels like each of the way you approach them
ties in with your personalities. Like you're a lot more
of like the internet searches and such, right. Courtney, on
the other hand, has more the interviewing the people. I

(35:21):
find it fascinating as well, and that's how we are
I think personally, Like I could never be a producer
because I can't cold call people like I would freak
out socially like I am a social disaster. Courtney is
very graceful with people. I am like I can't talk
to people, very kind, you know, But I'm great with tech.

(35:42):
Court Yeah, not, You're phenomenal with that.

Speaker 4 (35:45):
So, like we should do some cold cases or something,
because between these two we might be able to solve
some things out.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
There, but they are not always transferable. I mean even
literally in my own house with my software engineer husband.
He's a brilliant man who can fix all the cords
and the codes and would pay me money to order
a pizza because I make every phone call. Yes for

(36:11):
our family.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
Yes I can. I have to go to the doctor,
and I cannot call her to make the appointment. I know,
I'm serious, you do it. It is horrible if I
had to, Okay, if I had to make if I
had to call somebody to stay at hotel, I would
literally never leave Las Vegas. So I will never. I
just can't. I can't.

Speaker 7 (36:31):
I just.

Speaker 4 (36:33):
Opposite, Like I get annoyed, like why is everything? Why
can't I pick up a phone and talk to somebody.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
It's the stupidest thing ever. But but you know, use
the main goal, basically, I'm gonna sum it up really quick,
is stay organized. Learn how to use these tools, learn
how to use Googles, Google sheets, google docs, things like that.
Please take the free Google classes on how like taha,
I you know I have documents on everything we got

(36:59):
about organized. I've never met anyone like this. Being organized
electronically is a skill. Yeah, and you have to you
have to say organized and that would be my advice. Anyway,
I love it. That's what's going on.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
Thank you, Jennifer, Jennifer Tack, Thank you go to another one.

Speaker 8 (37:17):
Hello, ladies. I chose to leave an old school message,
but I just wanted to say thank you very very
much for putting Belshook on the show. I'm at few
episodes behind. I listened in the morning since I work
at night to the I listened to the podcast and
that was extremely giving to me in a way that

(37:40):
I can't even explain. As a childhood trauma survivor, I've
lost both my parents before the age of thirty two
some other adult trauma. Going on chalk therapy is amazing
for me, but I continue to say I probably need
a lobotomy to get myself a regular related and now

(38:02):
I'm thinking that what I probably need is equine therapy.
So that was wonderful. I'm looking into that putting it
on my docket and appreciate what you guys do. Thanks
for doing.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
What you do. Wow.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
So oh that makes me feel so good. I was
that wasn't that I was sick? Remember I had the flu. Yeah,
I was sick. I missed this.

Speaker 4 (38:26):
Well, tell me lucky it's on the podcast because you
can go back and listen. But I'll give you a
quick summary because I first of all, I'm going to
let Courtney tell a little bit about it. But I
had to talk to Belle early on and I told
Courtney this. I was like, I don't know, is this
really going to do anything. The more I talked to
her about the kind of therapy that basically, horses are

(38:48):
so intuitive and they pick up on so much of
human emotions that there were little she told at least
three different stories, but little things where she didn't know
in advance, that like someone had to injure on their finger,
injury on their finger, but the horse would go over
and sort of lick on that finger area. Or there
was a couple that came that there was some infidelity

(39:09):
happening and the horses interacted in a way that kind
of portrayed infidelity or did some unusual behavior.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
I remember she used the phrase boy parts. She said
they were acting almost like a little MANAGATOI the horses
and the yeah, like a little play. It was pretty sick.
It was fascinated.

Speaker 4 (39:29):
It's fascinating, but it's really But Courtney fill her.

Speaker 3 (39:32):
In on more of like the therapy and what works
best about it.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
So Belle shook. She has been a I went to
high school with her and we have reconnected, right, said
that we reconnected at my reunion or ED will be
looking into if I actually went to my reunion.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
She was really.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
So Belle. She's been a therapist for twenty five years
or whatever it is, and then fell in and has
really developed this entire theory of equine therapy. The equine
therapy has been around for quite a bit, but she
has a particular way that she does it, and like
Taha mentioned it, it goes a lot to regulating or

(40:18):
bringing your body back down once. If talk therapy is
doing nothing for you, if trauma is being held in you,
if you know sexual assault victims or you know, if
there is a trauma sort of stuck in your body,
this can help it unleash. And then yeah, and something

(40:38):
that Bell which I thought was so interesting that she
described was you know, take a little doggie like what
you will have in the studio and you know sometimes
your heart to heart and tendness and you know the
oxytocin and all that. Well, given the size of a horse, yeah,

(41:00):
so so so much bigger that sort of the vibrations
she describes it better, but that everything comes down a
little bit if you're with a regulated being while they
have that force.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
So I'll have to check it out. I don't download
it after we're done and listen to it tonight.

Speaker 4 (41:21):
It's it's incredible and it probably doesn't hurt that she's
in a beautiful, serene area.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
So all of those things combined and the horses like it.
Just I found it.

Speaker 4 (41:30):
She is in Sedona. When are we going we accept
funny enough? That was the other topic, Like Stephanie's like,
we need to figure out a way.

Speaker 3 (41:37):
We need to figure out can we do a remote show?
That would be so fun do a remote show? I know,
I know, I know. The sad part is she did
say that not sad part.

Speaker 4 (41:45):
But the therapy is best when it's an an individual,
like a one on one kind of a thing. Because
I thought, oh, let's all have a big group therapy.
It doesn't really work as well.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
Well that maybe that might be overwhelming for the horse too,
write true.

Speaker 2 (41:59):
Yeah, so it's equine guidance. It's in Arizona's Sedona Verde Valley.
It is gorgeous, beyond gorgeous. Yeah, and it.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
Does seem like talking this morning about with Indy about
going to Sedona because she's never seen a thunderstorm and
I was like, let's go to Sedona. And now, you guys,
it's meant to be.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
I guess it is.

Speaker 4 (42:21):
Yeah, she would love to have you there and listen
to that, and she said, we're welcome to commation there,
but you know, I think it'll be something we would
love to do.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
But yeah, thank you, thank you so much for that
talkback and I'm so glad that it you know, that
you liked it and that you got something from it. Yeah,
check it out. Yeah, absolutely, thank you. I think we
got another one.

Speaker 9 (42:42):
Okay, Hi, Sarah from Michigan. I just wanted to compliment
I'm thinking the producers of the show because a while back,
someone's sunning a talkback about Talkback Tuesday and kind.

Speaker 7 (42:55):
Of critiqued it.

Speaker 9 (42:56):
And I just have to say, you guys have taken
that and run with it. I just heard Taha tell
Sam to cue up a video from a file name.

Speaker 7 (43:05):
And that's just that's the next level. You guys have
really perfected this.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
You know, it's so funny because like wheat, you guys,
when we first started, we were like shaking, I mean
live radio. What the heck are you? Are you kidding me?

Speaker 2 (43:21):
I din't you live?

Speaker 3 (43:22):
And we were like, I was like almost throwing up,
and Courtney would always have to calm me down right,
like you'd be like, listen, you're gonna be fine. I
think we've all kind of gotten better.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Yeah, well from the terra I'll speak for myself. I mean,
I was it was like having jet fuel in my veins.
I was, Oh, I was definitely nervous.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
Was more afraid of this than being filmed for by
Netflix because you live shows. I was more afraid of this.

Speaker 4 (43:59):
Wow, well you wouldn't know it now you guys have
been the whole team.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
Now, I never say that, Adam, I know right.

Speaker 4 (44:05):
Well, you know, no, No, I love it. That's what
keeps the energy going. That's the best part.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
But no, I address up.

Speaker 4 (44:13):
I do have to say, like we take a lot
of the talkbacks and the feedback from everyone, and we
really do listen to what people are saying. And that
was something I think, you know, we were in the beginning,
We're like, how do we get sort of more talkbacks?
And I think by focusing on topics, we get more
of what we're looking for.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
So so the audience is helping us. It's a win win.
Well and well, we wanted the show to be really
audience driven, you know what I mean, Like we didn't
want to just get up and preach to people, right,
you know exactly who wants that, right, So if we
get feedback, we take it seriously and we want and
we want the listener participation we want that's my favorite people.

(44:49):
We're saying listener like, this is the community not right.
We want community participation. We want you know, when we
see each other maybe at crime con or whatever, we
want to be able to go have a drink and
be totally chill and hang out with everybody. And you
know what I mean, like being just regular people and
when you get up and preach to people, you s
don't have that camaraderie. Before I had an espresso, I'm

(45:10):
a little oh, I love it. I love it.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
And Ta, by the way, I think the phrase you
were reaching for, which my best friend told me because
I was saying I'm so nervous, I'm so nervous, and
it was try and flip your mind a little bit
from nervous to excited. I'm exciting, changer, stick around. We
have a lot more coming up. At the top of
the hour, we are going to tell you about a

(45:35):
beloved teacher and what is going on. Detectives are a
little bit stunned. Don't forget to call eight A eight
three one Crime True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
true crime all the time. I'm crime analyst and OS investigator. Ooh,
body movin. We're here with producer and investigator Courtney Armstrong.
Don't forget if you miss any part of tonight's show,
no sweat, you can always catch the podcast. We also
want to hear from you. Give us a call at
eighty to eight thirty one Crime, or get with us

(46:15):
on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok
or Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook. Later in
the show, we're going to be discussing finally right this
Hulu documentary Death and Apartment six' oh, Three what happened
To Ellen greenberg for this Week's True crime And chilseale
sty tuned for, That but now we have an update
On Sonia Massy.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
Courtney, yeah the trial is just beginning and Former Sagamun
County Deputy Sean grayson has been charged with first degree
murder and this is in the fatal shooting Of sonia Massy.
So trial started. Today thirty six year Old sonya was
a black. Woman she was a single, mother and she

(46:58):
was shot and killed in her home In springfield back
In july of twenty twenty. Four she'd called nine one
one to report a possible intruder and that is When Sean,
grayson one of the deputies who responded the incident happened
where he's accused of murdering her during a. Confrontation he

(47:19):
alleges that That sonia lifted a pot of boiling water
and that made him fear for his, Safety so that
is what's he's. Saying the trial was actually. Moved it
started In peoria after being moved From, Springfield, illinois because
there was so much media coverage and.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
Publicity, well there was this body cam footage that came
out right after she was, murdered, right and it was. Horrifying,
YEAH i, mean it really lit people up because here she,
is she called for, help, right help arrives and they kill.
Her they kill, her and there was a massive outcry of,
injustice you, know that was, done so it received a

(48:03):
lot of media, attention and so they had to move.
It they had to move. It, yeah, yeah that makes.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
Sense, Yeah and prosecutors started. Strong they opened their case
and just Stated Sean grayson Shot Sonia massy with no lawful,
justification standing in her own. Kitchen and even as you,
said body the worst part you call for help and
you end up dead no matter what the, circumstances things
went very, awry right and.

Speaker 4 (48:31):
To your point when you see that body cam, footage
LIKE i, mean you, Know i'm not a police, officer
SO i don't, know but it looked like the, proximity you,
know even that she had boiling water and where he,
was where he.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
Was he was standing so far away from, her for.
Away even if she did throw a pot of boiling
water at, him which, whatever let's just say she was
h let's just live in a world where she. WAS
i don't even think it would have touched. Him, No,
yeah that's that's is that reason to use lethal force
against a human being? Anyway WHAT i, mean obviously not

(49:07):
because this trial is. Happening most cops have this qualified
immunity and are never you, know charged with first degree.
Murder this is this is a kind of unique circumstance
where it's actually. Happening oh it's, yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Right and the bodycam footage it came From Deputy farley
who is also at the, scene and that is what
you guys are referring to the footage that Shows sonya
near the pot of boiling. Water, Well Deputy farley testified
that it Was grayson the one who was on. Trial

(49:43):
it Was grayson's actions and Not sonia's that heighten the,
tension and that he felt That sonia never posed a
threat during that.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
Encounter, wow good for. Him, yeah you know the guts
that that takes for this this cop to go against his.
Partner yeah, right, YEAH i mean he's probably getting crap
from his. Spellow well maybe not because not. Listen, NO
i mean.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
He's doing what what in His. LISTEN i say this
every time, exhaustively but the trial has not finished. It
we have not heard both. Sides but he is telling
what he believes is the Absolute that.

Speaker 4 (50:23):
Takes a lot of, guts, Right but, YEAH i can
see where body's. Going oftentimes you think the police all
band together and like you the blue, line you don't cross, it,
Right but on the flip, side and you, know there
are a lot of the occasionally there's a bad apple
in the, bunch and they do have to, Say, okay
we're going to point this one out and make sure
that this doesn't happen moving.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
Forward, yeah and it's it's incredibly. Sad grayson was Threatening
sonia and ordering her to put down the pot of
water before he then fired three. Shots and after the,
shooting he discouraged his partner from providing medical. Aids so,

(51:08):
yes and he, said well She sonia was already fatally
wounded from a. Headshot BUT i, mean how do you
discourage someone from providing that to? Anyone?

Speaker 4 (51:22):
Right that part doesn't make any sense at, All like
if there is a side of you that feels remorse
for what you've, done let me try to. Help and so,
yeah that's another disturbing piece to all of.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
This you know what another's disturbing. Pieces let me if
you watch the full body cam, footage she opens the
door and she, says please don't hurt, me like she's
always she calls because she thinks there's an. Intruder, okay
and she opens the door and she says she's already
she's already scared in you, Know i'm a white. WOMAN

(51:54):
i don't know what that's, like you know WHAT i?
MEAN i JUST i. Don't and so she's already scared
that she's a black. Woman there's the tensions in this
country are you, know? Insane and she's like please do
she pled with, Him please don't hurt, Me please don't hurt,
me and she Gets it's just it's, heartbreaking, guys it's.
Heartbreaking this is the Case I've i've had in my

(52:15):
heart for a hot.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
Minute And i'm always thankful for the bodycam. Footage like
if that didn't, exist, now what would have been.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
Right what would have? Happened it would have been their, word, right,
right she pulled out a knife for, something you, know
who knows what it would who? Knows who?

Speaker 2 (52:30):
Knows and prosecutors did highlight that, fact, haha Because grayson
failed to activate his own body cam until after the shooting.
Occurred so that raised a whole bunch of questions about.
Transparency oh that's, interesting and you know, what you know
what really gets under my?

Speaker 3 (52:49):
Skin in court, today all, right they were showing the
body cam footage and this, guy this, cop this murderer is.
Yawning oh, my he's sitting in court yawning like he
can't be. Bothered, right this is so. Wow he's not
emblematic of all. Cops by the, WAY i don't want

(53:11):
anybody impression this is a bad, apple right of, course
AM i in my? Opinion?

Speaker 2 (53:17):
Right and, uh since the trial has not, completed he's
an alleged murder, correct he is absolutely not convicted by.

Speaker 4 (53:25):
WELL.

Speaker 3 (53:27):
I saw him do.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
It it is innocent until just saying technically you're, right,
yes but that's. Abhorrent, YEAH i MEAN i.

Speaker 4 (53:39):
Don't we definitely need to keep following this, one so we. Will,
yeah we definitely.

Speaker 7 (53:44):
Will.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
Yeah, Absolutely, well this is true crime. Tonight we'd love
to hear your thoughts on this case that's happening out
Of Sagomun. County we're at eight of eight three one
crime and. Body why don't you actually take us into
our next? Headline?

Speaker 3 (54:03):
YEAH i READ i found this one. Today it's really.
Sad So Brandon, ashley he has been arrested for the
murder of his, Wife Chelsea, spillers after she was found
dead from blunt force trauma in Their texas home In, Alvorado.
Texas So. Chelsea she's thirty three years. Old she's a
high school biology and chemistry. Teacher she was found dead

(54:23):
in her home On october, Eighteenth so just a couple
of days, ago like four days, AGO i Think. Saturday her,
husband his name Is Brandon, ashley and he was arrested
two days, later over one hundred and fifty miles away
after acting erradically and is now facing a murder. Charge
she was found dead at Home, saturday, Yep, Saturday october.

(54:44):
Eighteenth she had blunt force trauma as a suspected cause of.
Death authorities initially classified this case as an unexplained, death
but soon issued a murder warrant for her. Husband brandon
was Arrested monday the twentieth In, Badias, texas after trespassing
and acting ira on private. Property they. Report witnesses were
reporting that he was shirtless and he was knocking on

(55:05):
doors asking for clothing and said that he was avoiding
a highway into too many.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
Cops oh, Dear, like what.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
A, dummy, Right i'm avoiding the highway too many? Cops
can you give me a? Shirt? Like can you imagine
opening your door to?

Speaker 2 (55:17):
This it's it's horrible and without knowing, anything, right you, know,
right whether it's a mental break or you, know it.

Speaker 3 (55:26):
Sounds like some kind of mental, break because there there
was a thing that led up to all this. Too
so after his, arrest he allegedly told police he had
a hidden firearm, nearby and deputies later recovered a, revolver
so he was telling the. Truth he had a weapon.
Nearby he's currently being held In Grimes county waiting extradition

(55:47):
because again he was one hundred fty miles away to
face murder chargers In Johnson. County The Alvarado Police department
has Confirmed brandon is the main suspect and that the
investigation is. Ongoing here's some background on The, okay it's
So october, sixteenth two days before the, Murder so this

(56:08):
would be What, Thursday, Thursday actober, sixteenth two days before the,
murder police responded to a domestic disturbance at their home
Involving brandon holding a gun to his. Head, okay so
neighbors here like a ruckus and they call the. Cops
the cops come And brandon is acting erratic and he
has a gun to his. Head he was arrested at

(56:28):
that time for interference with official duties during that, incident
so something must have gone down showed up and then the, Wife,
chelsea the victim posted his bond and he got. Out.
Okay so that Was thursday the, Sixteenth and just as a,
Reminder chelsea's the victim. Here she was a well beloved

(56:49):
biology chemistry teacher At Alvarado High school and she was
deeply connected to her. Students the school district has released
a statement describing her as a dedicated educator who loved her.
School the students at at the school told AN nbc
AFFILIATE NBC dfw that she was the light of my.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
Day.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
OH i would go to her class every class. PERIOD
i would go to see. Her Ava, kelly who's a,
junior told the OUTLET i could talk to, her she
would talk to, me and then another. STUDENT i feel
like she's. GONE i feel like even though she's, gone
she lives. On this is former Student Mikaela, norris and

(57:31):
she Told fox Four news she lives on through all
of her students she. Touched Grimes county authorities became involved
After brendan was reported acting strangely LIKE i, said he
was knocking on people's. Doors, yeah it's his odd. Behavior
and comments during all, this you, know the encounter with
police raise concerns about his mental state and the timeline
between the domestic stervance In brandan's eventual arrests bands four.

(57:53):
Days so in, that you, know in the two days
leading up to the, murder in the two days, following
he obviously is going through some on a mental, breakdown.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
Right and, CERTAINLY i, mean, yeah it sounds like. It
not knowing anything, else but, Boy, chelsea this what a.
Waste it sounds like that this woman's life was cut
thirty three years.

Speaker 3 (58:15):
Old thirty three, yeah thuty three years. Old so they
go to, that they go so Sun, Saturday october, eighteenth
that you, know they go because the cops, come he's
holding the gun to his. Head he gets just you,
know he gets, Arrested he gets Released. Saturday they find
the body the, Eighteenth they start, looking they start you,
know finding things. Out they issue a warrant for the husband's,

(58:37):
arrest but he's gone Off, Sunday october, nineteenth they start
reporting sightings of, him, right, wow start reporting sightings of,
him and he's arrested on The twentieth's a good job
to the. Cops they got. Him you know what's reminded
me Of this kind of reminded me a little tiny
bit Of Ellen. GREENBERG i was just thinking, that, yeah

(58:57):
and we're going to get into this in the next.
Segments remind her of going to be doing True kremenchild
in the next. SEGMENT i think it's the next, segment
but you, KNOW i Want we were watching the documentary
and her students are in the documentary and they're talking,
about you, know how this affected. Them her death affected
them because they she was very, beloved just just Like,
chelsea just like and it made me when we were

(59:19):
when we were doing the, STORY i was, LIKE i
really want to talk about what the students were saying
because it reminded me so much Of Ellen greenberg in
the sense that the students were the ripple effect that
we always tell right.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
Become, Kids AND i, think how important you, know all of,
us if we're, lucky have that one.

Speaker 3 (59:37):
Teacher mine was my band, Teacher Bob hasty if you're,
listening love, you, dude my band. TEACHER i STILL i, mean,
yeah he was. Great how about You? Taha oh, GOSH
i have to go way.

Speaker 4 (59:49):
BACK i think it was a biology teacher that really
like helped me along the. WAY i was struggling with the,
class and he took a lot of separate time done
his last name it was Ed. Greenberg it was Mister
greenberg or. Something but, anyway are you. Serious, yeah but.

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
He took a lot Of.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Greenberg.

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
Yeah, Yeah and he took a lot of time to
help me with everything BECAUSE i was struggling so. Much
but it was like outside of school hours and he
was just So but, yeah sometimes the.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Teachers teachers are the best and the time and compassion
and capacity for. Listening all, right Sam, ADAM i did
tell YOU i had a premonition apparently that there would
be a quiz and here it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
Is, OH i don't like to tache of. This did
you guys have a teacher that made an impact on? You, okay? Good,
yeah me scared over.

Speaker 10 (01:00:36):
Here, YEAH i had my uh trumpet lesson teacher in high.
SCHOOL i had a private lesson teacher and, uh you
just like got me REALLY i didn't care about. SCHOOL
i was like slacking off and, stuff and he got
me really focused and like just, UH i don't, know
just taught me how to learn well and be passionate
about about learning and devoting myself to, something So steve Fort, Worth,

(01:01:00):
Texas Greg.

Speaker 11 (01:01:04):
Sam, Okay i'll try to make this. QUICK i had
Someone Brian, smith who taught like history and the same
THING i did not care about, school AND i was just,
LIKE i liked him because he just made me feel
good about whatever INTERESTS i had outside of school and
just made school just a lot easier and.

Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
Bearable, Oh, courtney you're not off the. Hook when we come,
Back i'm going to hear. Yours, Yeah and we're also
going to be discussing The hulu Doc death And apartment
six o, three what happened To Ellen greenberg for this
Week's True crime And chill AND i hear we have
some talk backs with your opinion on the. Show keep
it right here At Graving.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
That welcome back To True crime tonight On, iHeartRadio where
we talked true crime all the. Time I'm Courtney. Armstrong
i'm here with crime, analysts the brilliant and Beautiful Body.

(01:01:59):
Moved don't forget if you have missed any part of
the show, whatsoever you can always catch the podcast and
we want to hear from. You give us a. Call
we're at eight to eighty three to One crime or
you can get with us on. Socials we are At
True Crime tonight's show on TikTok And, instagram as well
As True Crime tonight On. Facebook and if you want to,
call if you have been Following True crime and chill

(01:02:22):
and watch death And apartment six oh, three what happened
To Ellen? Greenberg this is a double ask to give
us a call and join our. Conversation so, body do
you want to fill us in on the overview of
the case for anyone who needs that Refresher.

Speaker 3 (01:02:39):
Yeah i'll see. That so despite a recent legal settlement
requiring requiring a fresh overview of the case and review
from The Medical examiner's office In, philadelphia they have reaffirmed
their controversial ruling That Ellen greenberg's twenty eleven, death despite
twenty stab, wounds ten to the front and ten to the,

(01:03:02):
back was a. Suicide ellen she was a twenty seven
year old. Teacher she was originally believed to be a
homicide victim initially when this first, happened but her cause
of death was changed after police met privately with the,
pathologists prompting a fourteen year campaign by her parents to

(01:03:27):
challenge the. Determination The october twenty Twenty i'm. Sorry The
october twenty five, decision which just happened like last, WEEK
i think to uphold the suicide ruling has devastated her,
family who say critical evidence has been, overlooked and they
vow to continue to seek justice after fourteen years of.

(01:03:47):
Fighting but how, yeah, yeah you, KNOW i what do you?
Do you know WHAT i? Mean, like what do you
these poor parents that they are basically trying to fight
for their daughter's dignity right at this? Point like she'd
never wanted to, Leave she didn't want to leave the.

(01:04:08):
Earth she wasn't like, suicidal she didn't have suicidal. Ideation you,
know she was their only, child, Right and you, KNOW
i can't imagine that they want to live in a
world where their only child can't talk to, them, Right

(01:04:29):
like you, know you're you can't you can't fathom the
possibility that your only, child who you're very close, with
by the, way can't talk to you about what's going
on in their. Life there's no way that she killed.
Herself BUT i think it's worth mentioning that everyone who commits,

(01:04:49):
suicide well not, everyone but the vast majority of people
who commit suicide are the happiest. People right on the,
outwardly it's always a, shock oh the.

Speaker 4 (01:04:59):
Hour what you're, Saying, yes it's a surprise too often
because if it wasn't.

Speaker 3 (01:05:05):
A surprise, oftentimes because if it wasn't a, surprise it
wouldn't be so, shocking right, Right it's just it's very,
very very very. Sad BUT i understand that we are
going to start true crime and chill and we have
a talk. Back let's do. It let's start the talk.

Speaker 12 (01:05:21):
Back, hi this Is marissa From. MARYLAND i had left
a message about hypermobility the other day with regards To
Ellen greenberg's. CASE i have hyper, mobility AND i was
thinking about it and mostly stabbing victims are. Stabbed what
the knife is going to the victim by some sort
of strong, force you, know by held by someone. Else

(01:05:43):
what if we're thinking about this the wrong. Way what
if she held the knife behind her and back into
it with her core.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
Muscles if she.

Speaker 12 (01:05:50):
Used the knife and held it behind her and backed into,
IT i can see that being a very viable way
to have the force. Necessary if she was, depressed AND
i can speak to. This being depressed can be like a.
Switch you can be fine one minute and absolutely crazy
feeling the next and want to ram.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
Your car into a.

Speaker 12 (01:06:11):
Tree if that switch from, happy go lucky to depressed was.
Flipped and she didn't have a, gun she didn't have.
Poison she was cutting, through so she had a tool
in her. HAND i can see how going from fine
to depressed and angry could go very. Quickly and if

(01:06:32):
she couldn't stab herself from the, back she could have
rammed it into her. Back it doesn't sound, normal but who.

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):
Knows it's really good. Insight that's very good. Insight with
the hyper, mobility, right this has been this has been
a kind of a topic for a hot. Minute AND
i had mentioned the other, DAY i think yesterday THAT
i think she had Elder daniel syndrome, correct which is
that hyper mobility with the, joints and it's a it's a,

(01:06:58):
serious serious. Disease BUT i don't know if she actually had,
that BUT i do believe that her parents have touched
on the idea that she had this hyper hyper mobility
and that it would have caused stabilization problems for holding
a knife and you, know stabbing herself in the. Back excuse,
Me i'm still kind of froggy from the. Flu, oh that's. Okay,

(01:07:22):
Sorry SO i just wanted to clear that up, though
like don't come for, Me, like if you, look you'll find, it.
Right but the idea that she would hold a knife
and back up into, it wouldn't it just be easier
and less awkward to stab yourself in the.

Speaker 4 (01:07:38):
Heart that's ALL i think, About, like, like it just
DOESN'T a lot of it doesn't make.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
Sense there's so much of.

Speaker 4 (01:07:45):
It but but the why wouldn't you if you are,
upset you want to end your, life why wouldn't? You
AND i know you're not thinking, clearly but the immediate
thing is to just stab yourself from the heart or
OR i don't know if that part doesn't. Track and
then also there's another part of. It there's a lot
of it that doesn't track to. Me but there was
another area that when you watch the documentary that said

(01:08:09):
the way that the blood was pouring down her body
looked like it wasn't the correct because it didn't match
the way her body was laying when they found.

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
Her so that seems unusual to me.

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
As, well coupled with the fact that when you listen
to that nine one one tape When sam enters the, room, like,
right he never reacts to a knife jutting out of.
IT i can, unzip let me. Unzip oh there's the.
KNIFE i see it, Now like how could you not
have seen that? Immediately so those are the things that
stood out so but, yes there is a world where

(01:08:42):
maybe she could have backed into a knife several times
then decided to finalize it in her.

Speaker 3 (01:08:48):
Heart possibly it's just so hard for me to fath.
Him BUT i mean to our talkback's, credit, right the
woman who left the, talkback, which by the, way thank
you for, that because it's very interesting that you call
them what that hyper? Ability it is, possible, Right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
AND i also THOUGHT i thank you as well for
the talk, back just your description of with depression having
a light switch a tree from depressed to fine to
rageful and desperate very. Quickly SO i appreciate you highlighting
because she was.

Speaker 3 (01:09:22):
In her kitchen cutting up like, BLUEBERRIES i, think, right,
yeah and, yeah and then you, Know, sam her fiance
went to go LIKE i think he went to go work,
out is what? Correct it, Said and he's seen on
surveillance leaving and coming. Back and here's the, thing the,
pooling the way the blood was on her face and

(01:09:45):
the way the way that they would have expected it to,
be because she was she was found kind of she
was found in the supine, position so she was face,
up the knife was in her, chest, correct and she
had like a zip up hoodie, on like one of those.
Hoodies And sam calls nine one. ONE i forgot one important.

(01:10:08):
Thing she's kind of sitting up a little bit too
in the corner of the cabinets, right not completely laying,
flat if you will not she was not completely laying.
Fat and So sam knocks on the door and he's,
like you, know texting or let me, in and he's
being kind of. Weird i'm not gonna. Lie he's being
kind of, weird like you're gonna regret this or you,
know he's just being kind of strange in these text
messages to, her like open.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
Up where are the SECOND i remember? This the second text,
message he was Frantically it was three seconds after the. First,
yeah he literally knocked on the. Door it wasn't open
in two point five. Seconds and he texted again and
then continued on a da. Tribe it wasn't very.

Speaker 3 (01:10:45):
Strange it, Was and then he goes down to the
security desk, right and he's, LIKE i can't get into my.
Apartment the latch is closed in my Fiance ellen is
not answering the, door and the security guard's, like, WELL
i can't leave the, post so let me call maintenance or.
Whatever So sam goes back up and basically breaks the

(01:11:07):
door down because you know those.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
Latches that like the hotel, hotel.

Speaker 3 (01:11:15):
And he basically breaks in and the reason that it's
been ruled a suicide is because of that. Latch. Right
but we learned in this documentary from the superintendent or you,
know the building manager building, manager that if you shut
the door hard, enough it latches on its.

Speaker 7 (01:11:33):
Own.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
Yeah, Yeah and that was the Whole, yeah the whole
thing was the locked what did they keep referring to
in the, documentary the locked, box lock box, mystery, right
just referring to it as with the assumption that you,
know she was, alone whereas possibly.

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):
Not AND i will say that was WHERE i. WAS
i kept.

Speaker 4 (01:11:55):
Lingering i'm, like, well the picking in the, door then
that that IS i can't wrap my head around how
he could have on, that but that that was the
one part of the. Documentary i'm, like oh. Wow once
she explained like it can slam.

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
Lock and lock you. Out maybe there's a theory with
that as. Well but then there's all these OTHER i,
mean there's so many holes in this there's so many.

Speaker 4 (01:12:14):
Holes but the other one with the police department kind
of denying initially that there was surveillance footage and then oh,
yeah later coming forward and, saying, oh that's, right we
do have, yeah more than there was another MOMENT i
think that was unusual when they claimed the security guard
went up with.

Speaker 3 (01:12:31):
Him oh, Yeah, Sam, yeah they said in the in
the reports that the security desk guy went in the
elevator With sam up to the to the. Room but
that never. Happened that never. Happened.

Speaker 4 (01:12:44):
Yeah, WELL i, mean let's Before i'm going to pause
us for a second Because i'm hearing from the guys
that we actually have a caller who wants to talk
to us about.

Speaker 3 (01:12:53):
IT i think her name Is. Karen Is karen there with?

Speaker 7 (01:12:56):
Us?

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
Hi?

Speaker 7 (01:12:57):
Karen, Yeah, first this is the first Time i've caught your.
Show it's very. Interesting oh, okay well, Welcome, Yes well about, this,
well suppose it's. SUICIDE i want someone to explain to
me how she stabbed herself in the. Back eleven. Times,

(01:13:20):
yeah one is hard enough to. Believe eleven. TIMES i
can't even twist enough to zip up the back of a. Dress,
YEAH i. Know eleven. Times, YEAH i find that.

Speaker 3 (01:13:35):
Ridiculous, karen you're speaking our. Language we totally agree with,
you and NOT i mean the one in her. HEAD
i don't know if you watch the, Documentary, karen but
they Show, okay, well in the, documentary it's very well.
Done it's Called death And apartment six o three and
it's On, hulu and it's a documentary about all of,
this and that's kind of what we're talking. About and

(01:13:56):
in the documentary they show some of the photos of the, wounds,
okay and the one that's in the back of her,
head it's kind of like right above where your neck
kind of meets your, head maybe just a little bit above,
that like a couple of inches. Maybe AND i, MEAN
i really don't know how you physically do you can do,

(01:14:17):
THAT i truly do, not and then have the wherewithal
after you do this to take it and put it
in your, chest, RIGHT i, MEAN i just don't know
how it's. Possible it does.

Speaker 7 (01:14:31):
Seem he's obviously a proportionist of some kind, right there's
no other. EXPLANATION i.

Speaker 3 (01:14:37):
AGREE i agree, that, YEAH i.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
Can't it doesn't make a lot of sense to a
lot of. People so you're in good.

Speaker 3 (01:14:46):
Company we really thank you for the, Call, karen, because
like the show runs, on people like, You so thank
you so much for giving us a, call giving us
your thoughts on the death Of ellen Green. BIRD i
understand we have another talk. About hey gi, guys.

Speaker 13 (01:14:59):
It Is Mary kay The ohio. AGAIN i was just
listening to The Ellen greenberg episode and my issue And
i'd love to know What joseph thinks is if she
stabbed herself in the back of the, head which is
what the stab pattern looks, like wouldn't it have an
angle on it if you're trying to stop unless she

(01:15:21):
keeps switching hands and.

Speaker 3 (01:15:26):
We lose. Her let's say that's, right that was the
end of. It, Okay, okay go, ahead. Listen we're going to, say,
body she's so, right she's one hundred percent on it
would be it would be at an. Angle AND i
think we should flag this For sunday For joseph just
to get you, know because she probably wanted him to,
answer not my stupid, butt but it would have you,

(01:15:48):
know Because joseph can explain it in actually you know
and not a. Foray but she's one hundred percent. Right
it would have an, ankle and it doesn't note that
it was there was an angle because you can't stab
yourself in that location and keep it perfectly. Straight you just. Can't, True,
yeah you just. Can't that's a valid.

Speaker 4 (01:16:08):
POINT i think we should Get, joseph can we flag that.
One i'm making a note right now AND i just
have to say one of the things that's that thanks
to the, DOCUMENTARY i didn't realize this that all of
the photographs and everything they have are because of that
building manager who, Said i'm just going to make SURE
i get make sure nothing is. Stolen LIKE i didn't.

(01:16:29):
Realize no one, police no one takes any video footage or.

Speaker 3 (01:16:32):
Anything crazy isn't. Insane and the cleanup crew right the clean,
scene so this was ruled this is ruled a. Homicide
and the next day people come in and, oh, no
it was ruled of. Suicide, no it was a suicide
THAT i spoke, Wrong so they had the cleanup crew
coming because it was a. Suicide well then it gets

(01:16:53):
rolled a homicide right before her funeral or right at her,
funeral and they're, like oh my, god we've already cleaned it.
Up we're supposed to. Do it's.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
Insane, well stick. Around we have more to dig into
On True crime And Chill death And apartment six oh,
Three what happened To Ellen? Greenberg and we also have
a couple more. Talkbacks we've got, That we've got. More
we've Got True Crime.

Speaker 3 (01:17:16):
Tonight welcome back To True Crime tonight On, iHeartRadio where
we talk true crime all the. Time I'm Boddy moon
And i'm here with Producer Courtney armstrong and Producer taha
and don't Forget sam And adam on the. Board. Listen

(01:17:38):
if you miss any part of tonight's, show you can
always catch the. Podcast just go To, iHeartRadio download the apps,
free do a search For True Crime tonight and. Listen
you're gonna be able listen to the, podcast no. Problem
we also want to hear from. You give us a
call at eighty eight thirty one crime or leave us
a talk back on The Arheart radio apps and you
just downloaded it right.

Speaker 9 (01:17:56):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:17:56):
LISTEN i made a huge error when we did the last.
SEGMENT i forgot Ask courtney about her. Teacher who is
the teacher that made a big impact on your?

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
Life CAN i give you only? Two that's. IT i
had a list of, more but. True So Janet mackenzie
From she was my high School english. TEACHER i took
three different classes with, her every CLASS i. Could AND
i still have a book that she gave. Me she
came to my graduation party at my. House oh my,
gosh and the book was called Wild, women and it

(01:18:29):
was short, stories and the inscription, says not because you're
a wild, woman but because you embody the best of
what a woman can. Be and to my seventeen year
old self and to my today forty seven year old,
self that book is very very. Special so that Was
Janet mackenzie in high. School and Then Professor peltier From Trinity,

(01:18:51):
College oh changed my. Life, WOW i Love.

Speaker 3 (01:18:56):
Elson the teachers don't get enough. CREDIT i, mean they truly.
Don't one of my dearest, friends her name Is Michelle
flows In. Tampa shout Out. Michelle she's a teacher to
middle school. Boys can you, Imagine oh my. God and
she is just so joyful all the, time and she
really cares about her, students And i'm just inspired by
her every day AND i just wanted to give her

(01:19:17):
a little shout.

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
Out, yeah especially middle. School oh my, god it is really.
Specific that's tough. Time so, Yeah, well switching to a
totally different, subject The Ellen greenberg, Documentary death And apartment
six o.

Speaker 3 (01:19:33):
Three this is our true crime and chill for the.
Week and True crime And chill is kind of where
we all pick a documentary and we kind of watch
it together throughout the week and then on Every wednesday
or every Other, wednesday we talk about. It and that's
what we're doing. Now so there was one other. Thing
there was one thing in the documentary and it, really
well two really tugged at my heart. Strings When Ellen,

(01:19:57):
greenberg she was The Jewish jewish, faith, right and part
of the tradition in a burial of A jewish person
is that the body is attended to and cleaned and you,
know presented in a certain, way, okay and the, community
the church takes care of. It the community takes care of.
It and they filmed the scene where there's two women

(01:20:21):
attending To ellen's body and you, know as they're doing,
this they're noticing these wounds because they didn't realize initially
that you, Know Ellen greenberg had all these wounds on
her back right that she and there's a moment in
the documentary where they're attending to her body and these
women it's very there's no words, spoken but it's like they.

(01:20:45):
Know it's like they. Know and then they're at the, funeral,
okay and they're Sitting shita, right and they learn that
it's been changed from a homicide to a suicide Or i'm,
SORRY i have it backward from suicide to. Homicide it's
like at the funeral and it's, like oh my, god,

(01:21:06):
yeah oh there's poor, parents like it's just so. Horrible
and then it gets ruled a homicide And sam walks
in the, tension the, tension it's. Crazy it's. Crazy but
it was a really good. DOCUMENTARY i think they presented
the case really. Well. YEAH i think they did a
really good. Job and the reporter who reported on this,

(01:21:28):
initially what a great job she.

Speaker 2 (01:21:30):
Did OH i was she was.

Speaker 3 (01:21:32):
Phenomenal, ANYWAY i really recommend the. Documentary it was super.
Good it's a really good. Overview it was shot, well
it's beautifully.

Speaker 2 (01:21:40):
Done and if you want to know what uncomfortable looks,
like there's a couple of filmed depositions of more than
one corner medical examiner and they look. Uncomfortable really, yeah,
yeah so that WAS i had The, yeah archival is

(01:22:00):
what it's called when you it's you, know actual, footage
and that WAS i thought it was incredibly telling to.

Speaker 4 (01:22:06):
Me, yea, no, NO i, agree especially you, know with the.
Circumstances AND i think one of the people that you're referring,
to he's the one that went back and forth with the.
Decision at one point he, said, oh it was a,
suicide then it went back to it was a, homicide
and you could see the awkwardness of like there was

(01:22:27):
a simple question, like, well where are your notes on?
THAT i do not have the. Notes it was something
really awkward about the way it was that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
That you're exactly, right it was the original examiner and
and then, yes he had no notes from a meeting
that took place with investigators during which his you, know
cause of death changed and he couldn't sort of.

Speaker 4 (01:22:53):
Remember, YEAH i was hating on him during that, scene
but THEN i switched my feeling about him when LATER
i realized he's the one that, Said, okay there is
something fishy, here and he came, forward.

Speaker 3 (01:23:07):
So HE'S i do think it took a lot of
bravery for him to change his. Mind much like.

Speaker 4 (01:23:12):
The police officer were saying, earlier it's hard to probably
work in an environment where you know everyone is going
to come against you for what you're.

Speaker 3 (01:23:19):
Saying so, right, right inter, THING i definitely recommend the.
Documentary please watch, it let us know what you. Think
just because we are not going to talk about it
anymore doesn't or that documentary doesn't mean we don't want
to hear your. Thoughts SO i mean as a talk,
back and NOW i think we're going to go are
we gonna are we going to talk about new? Ones
OR i, think well we could.

Speaker 2 (01:23:38):
See what this talkback has something coming out of his.
Body we don't know what it, is so let's find.

Speaker 6 (01:23:44):
Out, hi, ladies this Is renee From Orange. COUNTY i
just wanted to tell you. GIRLS i love listening to
you every morning When i'm getting ready for. Work AND
i have another comment as far as The Ellen greenberg,
CASE i think that the the fiance kind of set
the tone for the cops by SAYING i think she committed.

(01:24:07):
Suicide just a little, THOUGHT i feel like you kind
of stept that tone and they just kind of took
it from. There you guys have a great, night And
i'm so happy THAT i get to listen.

Speaker 14 (01:24:18):
To you guys every.

Speaker 6 (01:24:19):
Morning roc on Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:24:22):
RENE i love, It thank, You. RENEE i Love Orange.
County that's WHERE i grew well After, DETROIT i grew
up in. County so.

Speaker 2 (01:24:29):
Beautiful it is exquisitely, beautiful.

Speaker 3 (01:24:32):
Spoiled like it was. Unbelievable but, yeah that Was so
he calls nine one one and he, says she stabbed, herself, right,
yeah that's what he. Says, yeah so, yeah, yeah that's he.

Speaker 4 (01:24:45):
Set the tone and they just they just followed along
with that.

Speaker 3 (01:24:48):
Narrative, Right thank you for the talk About.

Speaker 2 (01:24:52):
Renee, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:24:53):
It's a good.

Speaker 4 (01:24:54):
One so now the challenge is what is our next
uh our next one going to?

Speaker 3 (01:25:00):
Be we have to pick our next. Doc that's going
to be.

Speaker 4 (01:25:02):
Suggestions as a matter of, fact we do, so and
actually we got a couple of talkbacks with people suggesting
Some so, Okay i'm going to turn to the guys
to play a couple of talkbacks and now we can
think them all over and think about. Them how about
we go TO i think we had ELEVEN a, ready
can we play that?

Speaker 14 (01:25:20):
One good. Afternoon It's mark calling From New. HAMPSHIRE i
absolutely love your. Show you guys have created a community
that is just. Exceptional calling to bring up The Alabama,
solution the new documentary that just came out ON Hbo.
Max oh my. Goodness there needs to be something we
can do as a, community whether it's happening there or the.

(01:25:42):
Travel it is an absolute incredible eye opening cameras inside the,
prison back of the, scenes what's really happening and the
government really covering it. Up the amount of people that
have died in a year is over a thousand in this.

Speaker 3 (01:25:58):
Jail is absolutely.

Speaker 14 (01:26:00):
INCREDIBLE i hope you guys make it a wonderful rest
of your. Day thank you for all you. Do everything you're,
doing it's absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:26:06):
Incredible, Mark.

Speaker 2 (01:26:11):
So do it.

Speaker 3 (01:26:12):
Again can you call me every morning and give me some.
REAFFIRMATIONS i need you in my. Life thank?

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
You, YES i just ALL i want to say was
one thing To. Mark one of my favorite places Is
Lake winnipesake In New. HAMPSHIRE i used to go and
visit a friend and spend like a week of every.
Summer so you live in a beautiful state and thank
you very.

Speaker 3 (01:26:36):
Much, yes thank, You. Mark that was very. Lovely uh,
yeah The Alabama, SOLUTION i haven't seen it. YET i
Think indy AND i were gonna watch, it but we
ended up watching a different one this weekend, actually and
it's about The alabama prison system and all the you,
know the the horrible things that are happening. There and,
LISTEN i know it's so easy to be, like they're,

(01:26:58):
prisoners they did something, wrong they deserve of. It but,
Again i'm going to get in my soapboxing that, we
as a civilized, society you, know the best country in the,
world have decided that this is how we are going
to you, know handle punishment and you, know rehabilitation of,
criminals and we have to take care of. Them, YEAH i, Agree, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:20):
Tax as a, TAXPAYER i don't want to be a compliant,
torturer you. KNOW i don't think it is that radical an, idea.
THOUGH i.

Speaker 3 (01:27:32):
Get a lot of crap for, it because how CAN
i sit AND i get, it, like how CAN i
sit here and say like what a monster like people
Like Brian coburger are and then also on one hand
say well they have to be treated with decency as.
Well AND i get. THAT i get where they're coming.
FROM i, do but it's just it's within me that

(01:27:53):
we have to treat people, WELL i don't.

Speaker 7 (01:27:55):
Know.

Speaker 4 (01:27:56):
Yeah and we're supposed to be a society that, is,
yeah we think higher of each.

Speaker 3 (01:28:02):
Other we're supposed to be the best country on the.
Planet let's act like. It so. WELL i don't know that.
One i'm interested in that.

Speaker 4 (01:28:10):
One i'm interested in that one as. Well and that's
an important topic that all.

Speaker 3 (01:28:13):
Right, well let's add it to our list of suggestions
and considerations to absolutely all, RIGHT i think we got
another one that someone is.

Speaker 5 (01:28:20):
Suggesting, okay hey, ladies It's brittany From, Montreal. CANADA i
have a recommendation for true crime and chill just came
out today On netflix Called My father THE Btk. Killer
it's from his Daughter carrie's point of view and her.
EXPERIENCE i haven't watched a trailer, yet but he's one
of the killers that fascinates me the most due to
his incredibly long cooling off period and how rare that

(01:28:42):
is and how quote unquote normal he. Seemed So, YEAH
i hope you guys will watch.

Speaker 2 (01:28:47):
IT i can't. Wait i'll be watching it.

Speaker 3 (01:28:48):
Tonight let me SO i wait for you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:28:54):
Enthusiasm, well you, KNOW btk certainly is a topic of
much interest across many different cases that we've talked. About
SO i love that, suggestion AND i ACTUALLY i really
love that you're watching it. Tonight that's HOW i feel
about new episodes coming out Of Below.

Speaker 3 (01:29:13):
Deck you're, LIKE i can't, wait got to watch it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:17):
Now but thank you for the. Suggestion, yes thank.

Speaker 3 (01:29:21):
You i'm obviously interested IN, btk And i've Met carrie
many times AND i have an interest in, this So
i'll definitely be watching this one for. Sure but this
is ANOTHER i.

Speaker 4 (01:29:31):
Know you know the case pretty. Well for those who
don't know what the initial stand for anything about the,
case just a little who and WHAT.

Speaker 3 (01:29:38):
Istk Is Dennis. Raider he was a serial killer In
kansas and he you, know his his murder spanned, decades
and he had an abnormally long cooling off, period LIKE
i think fifteen. YEARS i haven't there's A i have
so many like little statistics in my. HEAD i can't remember,
exactly but it was very long and he and he

(01:30:00):
toyed with the police and the, media and he named HIMSELF,
btk which stands for buying torture. Kill that's the general
summary of. It. Yeah his first murders that we know
of were also for. People and he is in communication
With Catherine, ramsland who was also a teacher For Brian.
COBERGER i love.

Speaker 4 (01:30:21):
That guess what that was a test BECAUSE i actually
had the facts right in front of me and you
got every single one, Right are you?

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
Serious? Yeah what about cooling off? Period the longer the
cooling off?

Speaker 4 (01:30:31):
Period and tell everyone BECAUSE i was newer to the
world of true crime and didn't know what cooling off.
Is so In layman's, terms for people out there who
may not know what cooling off, is it's just the
gap in.

Speaker 3 (01:30:42):
Time it's the one murder to the next and where
they go and basically put a mask on and live
a normal life after they've committed horrible. Atrocities.

Speaker 2 (01:30:53):
Yeah and in the case Of Dennis, radar his what
he was doing was he was a church, Leader he
was a true, leader as a family. Man he was
all of the. Above, yeah and a brutal.

Speaker 3 (01:31:07):
Murderer he has a family And carrie his, daughter and,
she uh you, know is a is a public speaker
in how you, know basically having a murderer for a
father has shaped her and you, know, anyway it's very,
interesting it's Very i'm gonna watch it for. Sure we're

(01:31:29):
gonna have to get, together and we can't make a
decision Without, stephanie by the, way with her other friends right, now, RIGHT.

Speaker 4 (01:31:35):
I, Know, well we'll decide when she's. Here but those
are two. Options there's some others in the. Mix maybe
when she joins, us we'll play a couple.

Speaker 3 (01:31:43):
More, yeah let's do. That so maybe tomorrow wee can
play the other talk. Box, yeah we'll do, That so
we can. Pick but so Far i'm leaning.

Speaker 4 (01:31:51):
Towards that BT k because that is a little bit
BECAUSE i didn't know much about that case i met,
you and it's it's something about the serial killers that
walk in our every. Day, yeah it's light that JUST
i just can't wrap my head, around and SO i
just want to try to understand.

Speaker 3 (01:32:07):
IT i Know i'm the.

Speaker 2 (01:32:09):
Same, way ALTHOUGH i will say The alabama solution as,
well SOUNDS i would love to like that. ONE i
one hundred percent will be watching for even if it's
my own, edification you, know because that sounds really.

Speaker 3 (01:32:22):
Important it, does and it's something THAT i you, Know
i've been talking about pretty for a long, time like
prisoner reform and not for profit prisons and for profit
prisons and how the prisoners are. Treated you, know don't
get me, startain But i'm definitely interested in both of,
those like one hundred. Percent i'll watch them both. ANYWAY i,
Know i'll watch to make. Anyway So i'm up for
either one. PERSONALLY i love. It, yeah that's good. Choices,

(01:32:45):
well we did so good Without, stephanie who's out.

Speaker 2 (01:32:47):
WITH i Love yeah, ANYWAY i love this ideo.

Speaker 3 (01:32:53):
Stay around for tomorrow we're going to be diving into
The Brian walsh murder trial and shocking new charges against.
You was c grad student plus Producer Alan water from
The Donut Shop, burners, Goodnight thank you for joining Us
True crime.

Speaker 2 (01:33:06):
Tonight Good, night

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