Charlie Kirk Shooting Suspect in Custody, Ellen Greenberg Case Reopened, and Elliot Rodger’s Infamous Rampage

Forensic expert and Body Bags host Joseph Scott Morgan joins to break down the arrest of Tyler Robinson in the sniper assassination of political figure Charlie Kirk — and why investigators are warning against misreading memes as manifestos. We also revisit the haunting case of Ellen Greenberg, the Philadelphia teacher found with 20 stab wounds, as new forensic revelations cast further doubt on the decade-old suicide ruling. Plus, your talkbacks on the ongoing Travis Decker manhunt and the Delphi murders verdict. Tune in for all the details.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Sunday, September fourteenth, and we
hope you had an incredible weekend. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here
with Courtney Armstrong and Body Movin.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
Is back with us. So the band is back together. Body.

Speaker 4 (00:39):
We hope you had a great break I did. It
was wonderful. Thank you. Yes, I missed you guys though
right at you, we missed you too well.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Welcome back, you know, listen just in time for Scientific
Sunday with the great Joseph Scott Morgan, fresh back from
Crime Con where he appeared five times. I might am
hell yeah, So he'll be filling us in and all
on that. Joseph Scott Morgan, of course, the forensics expert
and host of the hit podcast Body Bags. And listen

(01:08):
as much as we want to all kind of hang
and talk about our weekend, we have stack mat of
headlines to get to. And of course there have been
some new developments in the Charlie Hirk assassination. We're going
to be going through some of the forensics with Joseph
specifically as we know it as of tonight, obviously an
unfolding situation, as well of several other cases that Joseph

(01:29):
has been talking about for a while now. So I'm
afraid to even tease them, Joseph, because sometimes we tease
something and then we don't even get to it.

Speaker 3 (01:38):
It's a great.

Speaker 5 (01:40):
Yeah, we're very We're very data heavy group, aren't we.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
Lady, Yes, we are.

Speaker 5 (01:45):
We always always trying to bring the news and the
truth exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
That's right, by the way, the truth in science will
set you free.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
Like let that be heard loud and clear.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Can we add a dash of love and a little
bit of light and we are off to the races.
Courtney Armstrong, where should we begin?

Speaker 6 (02:05):
Well, I think we begin with the details of what
is known in the Charlie Kirk assassination, which, as to
underline what you said, everything is evolving. However, since we
were last on air, Tyler Robinson, who's a twenty two
year old native of Utah. He's in custody as the
sniper assassin of conservative political influencer Charlie Kirk. Investigators are

(02:27):
still piecing together a motive there has I can't even
bring to mind another case that so many different points
of view are being put out there, and a lot
of them don't have the facts behind them, So we're
going to stick to just the facts. Charlie Kirk, of course,
was the founder of Turning Point USA, and he was
at a speaking event at Utah Valley University. This was

(02:50):
on September tenth. Tyler Robinson, the suspect has been identified.
It was facial recognition and he was ultimately persuaded to
surrender by his father. So he right now is being
held without bail. Prosecutors are preparing formal charges, and authorities
are calling it a politically motivated killing.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
So those are some of the facts. And then, Joseph,
I wanted to ask you.

Speaker 6 (03:14):
I understand that the gun authorities say that was used
to assassinate Charlie Kirk was a Mauser ninety eight.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Could you give us a little more information.

Speaker 5 (03:23):
Yeah, Mauser. Mauser's an old company sexually an Austrian company,
and they've been around even pre dating I think World
War One. But Mauser itself was as far as the
shoulder fired rifle was the standard issue in the German
forces in World War One, World War two bolt action rifle,
and there's been several iterations of it along the way.

(03:45):
It's kind of developed. It fires what's referred to as
a thirty six round, which merely means that it's a
thirty caliber round that was developed in nineteen o six.
It's a supersonic round. I think it's three thousand feet
per second, the same travel this round travel. So when
if you've listened to the recording, you can hear that

(04:05):
distinctive crack that's made. And the most significant thing for
me as a forensics guy is that there's only one
report that's it. You know, many of these shooting events
that we've covered over the last few years, you hear
Rett Tet or Tat got single shot, and that either
tells you one or two things. Either the person was

(04:26):
very practiced at what they were doing and that it's
not a semi automatic weapon perhaps, or they were very
patient with semi automatic. Or it's a bolt action, which
means that you have to manually recycle that weapon, you know,
pull up the bolt, pull it back, drive it forward.
You've objected. The spent round and live rounds are still
in the Dwelling magazine. But interestingly enough, and I have

(04:48):
yet to come across a case like this, the spent
casing was not ejected when the weapon was found, and
that's that's a significant forensic import.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
What are the implications. Yeah, I don't under I don't
understand guns well enough to.

Speaker 5 (05:06):
Well the fact that you can well the fact that
you have this weapon, and that you can marry up
any recovered bits of the projectile that brought about Charlie
Kirk's death. I don't know at this point if the
round was intact, it may have fragmented. They do have

(05:26):
a tendency to do that. My suspicion is is that
they can take this rifle. If they collect even the
smallest bits that have rifling on them, they can take
this weapon and run the same kind of ammunition through
it and get ballastic matches on this. That's the significance
of having the weapon, you know in this particular case,
which is you know, And then not to mention the

(05:48):
physical evidence that they say that they have where these
engravings or writings they've used the term engraving on the
rounds themselves and forensically. What's kind of intriguing about that
is that they're going to call upon a practice in
forensic science. You don't hear a lot about much anymore.
They're still out there and they're still working hard. That's

(06:09):
handwriting examiners where they can get exemplars of the suspects
writing either in life or say, write this down, and
then they try to marry that up with a form
the function of the letters that are on these casings
to see if maybe he did it or somebody else
did it, you know that a forensic writing expert can

(06:30):
come up with. You know, that's just a small taste
of the of the forensics. It's quite extensive.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Actually, we saw this with the Luigi Mangioni case, right,
so Mangione, Mangioni, whichever it is, but these casings right
having significance and obviously their intention was to give a message,
and we're seeing this now obviously in this case as well.
Does that like tip anybody off that the intention is

(06:56):
to be caught, right because this is true messages or
is that just something that maybe somebody would do just
because they're trying to save that or is it a
copycat kind of situation.

Speaker 5 (07:09):
I think it's actually quite fascinating stuff. I hadn't even
thought about that, because why would you write something on
a casing that you did not intend for someone to read.
It's like writing a book and setting it on fire. Correct,
you know, what would be the purpose if there's any
kind of narrative that you're trying to get out there,

(07:30):
kind of sponsoraling as well, is that he could have
fired these weapons are these rounds, and you know, kind
of randomly positive them, you know along the way. I
got to tell you at the end of the day, guys,
we're just based upon the position from which this guy
allegedly fired from. We're very fortunate no one else was killed,
because that really passed right over the top of hundreds

(07:52):
of people's heads to get through that small space and
at two hundred yards at small space above the top
of their heads and the base of that that canopy.
You know, when you're looking at that at two hundred yards,
it becomes very tiny, that little window.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
Forgive me, I was on vacation and I just got back.
Did you say two hundred yards?

Speaker 5 (08:14):
That's what the authorities, that's the number about it that
they keep putting out there two hundred yards yards two
hundred yards, which I got to tell you, this is
a allegedly allegedly this mouser's a scoped weapon. That's not
a real heavy lift at two hundred yards, just way
back when dinosaurs roam the earth, and I was in

(08:35):
going through the army training with an iron with an
iron sight weapon by the way, no optics. We had
to fire out to three hundred yards with an iron.
So it's not a real heavy lift. And if you
have any minimal experience with this, and this is a
robust weapon, make no mistake, this is not something that's
easily hidden. It's hard to collapse this thing. He would

(08:57):
have had to have had perhaps practice with. I don't know.
I'm hoping we're going to find out a lot more
of these details.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
Though, No can I ask a dumb question. There are
some questions this rifle. Does it have like a kickback
when you fire it? Does it? Does he have a
black eye?

Speaker 5 (09:13):
No? No, no, no, no, I don't know. I haven't
seen in at least the mugs that I saw, you didn't.
And again, if you have experience, you know where where
your ocular placement is relative to the backside of that ends.
It's only people that you know are fool hardy with
scoped weapons that get black eyes.

Speaker 4 (09:30):
You have to be very well, well, that does that tell
us he has experienced with.

Speaker 5 (09:33):
Well, it could minimum. I mean, all you have to
do is, you know, you can see the fire and
follies that are on on YouTube and you can see
how people will hand high powered weapons over the people
that have no experience and they get scope in the
eye or you know, get their lip busted with it.
But this guy probably has at least minimal experience with it.

Speaker 4 (09:52):
This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm body movin.
I am back from vacation and I am so glad
to be welcomed back by Stephanie Decker and Courtney Armstrong
and we are joined by the wonderful Joseph Scott Morgan.
And we're right in the middle of talking about some
of the really important details friends in the forensics evidence
in the murder or the assassination I should say of

(10:14):
political activist Charlie Kirk. And we're talking about the bullets
and Joseph, you mentioned the engravings or the handwriting on
the bullets. How big are these thirty caliber bullets, Are
they big enough to be written on? And everything like that?

Speaker 5 (10:28):
Okay, we have to break this down because with live cartridges,
this car entirety the car casing, so well, you have casing,
then you have the live cartridge and then projectile, so
it's several components. The casing itself is what this is
written on. So if the round is thirty caliber that
comes from British standard measurement. When you hear caliber as

(10:51):
opposed to millimeters, you're talking about three tenths of an
inch in diameter with the thirty cow. You expand that
out with casing of the and you've got more than
enough room to scribble something along the way. It's rather
I don't know, it'd be hard to I wouldn't want
to say. I'm sure that listeners can look this up,
but it's several inches in length from the base of

(11:13):
the cartridge to the to the nose of the projectile.
They just say that it was written I think, alongside
the casing. And they've used the term again engraving, which
is interesting to me because that means that some other
kind of instrument is used.

Speaker 4 (11:28):
Well, I mean, like I have I'm really into three
D printing and they have laser engravings built into them.

Speaker 3 (11:33):
Now, so you can do this in your living room.

Speaker 5 (11:36):
Yeah, you know you.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
Can if needed.

Speaker 4 (11:38):
And speaking of three D printing and Luigi, like Luigi
printed is on gun, that's exactly. I mean, this can
all be done from your kitchen.

Speaker 5 (11:45):
Yeah, and it can. And you know, going back years
and years in the Morgue, we use we use what
are called diamond pencils, and that is to write on
the base of a projectile, like if you recover the
projectile out of the body, you put like JM for
Joseph Morgan. So when it goes to trial and the dominitives,
you know, work really well as well. I don't know.

(12:06):
I mean, for all I know, he took a stone
and scratched it out. Yeah, and who really knows what
engraving means, right, you know, because I can go, I've
got a great jeweler here, take all my wife's stuff
to trust them. They've got a great engraving thing there.
You wouldn't want me to handle it. But you know,
they do have engravers and so I don't know what
that means. It's kind of it's kind of vague.

Speaker 6 (12:27):
Well, we know, that some of the phrases that were
written on the casings, and they include if you read
this you are gay, LMAO, hey fascist patch and lyrics
from the song belichow.

Speaker 4 (12:42):
So, I want to talk about the notices bulges. Oh
woh what's this that is chronically online terminology?

Speaker 3 (12:52):
That is the OWO.

Speaker 4 (12:54):
You have to imagine the o's are eyeballs, and the
w is like.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
The mouth theory.

Speaker 4 (12:59):
It's in a mote exactly, and notices bulges that's a
furrery term or the whole thing is very furrey to me,
Like it's I don't.

Speaker 6 (13:10):
Know, furrey people who are having sex with people and no, wait, I.

Speaker 4 (13:16):
Know it's they're just people who like identify as you know,
they put on costumes. They're not having sex with animals
or anything like that.

Speaker 3 (13:26):
They're animals.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
I saw my v H one show I love It's
like sometimes.

Speaker 4 (13:32):
They're in a lite and this is not Listen. I
don't want the furries to come after me. I'm on
your side, like I love for I'm not you know
what I mean, Like, it's just very the o w O.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
That's what I meant is very furry.

Speaker 4 (13:43):
It just feels very furree to me, I don't know,
and the whole like if you if you read these
you are gay L M A O. It's so chronically
online to me, so chronically online to me, I don't know.
This guy was online, and maybe he was radicalized online.
I'm not sure that he was online, and he was
online a lot. I think that his forensically speaking, I
think that the forensics download of his computer and cell

(14:06):
phone on are going to be very interesting.

Speaker 5 (14:08):
Yeah, most definitely.

Speaker 3 (14:10):
Oh well, I can't wait to see what we're gonna learn.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
Well, I say, a lot of it will be unfolding
this week. And listen, this story continues to change, and
as we've heard even earlier, you know at the top
of the show, there have been some takebacks, so we're
trying not to repeat misinformation.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
We'll stick around.

Speaker 4 (14:29):
We're going to be deep dying being into the mysterious
death of Noah Prescrove with Joseph breaking down why some
call it a cover up. Keep it right here, True
crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
And it's of course it's scientific Sunday.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
So Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert and host of the
hit podcast Body Bags, is back with us breaking down
some of the forensics regarding the recent assassination of Charlie Kirk.
We were just talking about sort of the engravings as
it's being said in these casings, and also now where

(15:13):
the gun.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
Itself was left.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
I have to ask you, so all we really know
is that this gun was found in a field, wrapped
in a towel, and just by based on your description,
that gun itself is very, very big. It's like four
feet four and a half feet even, right, So there
were reports that maybe he was walking with it in
that pants and was sort of therefore limping a little bit.

(15:38):
Other reports have said that it was dismantled and put
together prior to shooting.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
What happened?

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Why would you leave it in the grass wrapped in
a towel? You know that's going to be such a
huge area for authorities.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
Was he looking to be caught?

Speaker 5 (15:56):
Yeah, a fascinating, really fascinating question, because the individual that
did this is not doing much to hide themselves, which
is kind of odd you think about it. When you
think about it from a perspective of trying to get
away with a very public assassination. That's why each one
of the scenes that are involved in this, including where

(16:16):
the weapon is actually deposited, are significant and just a
little primary real quick on crime scene investigation. In our world,
in forensics, we have what's referred to as the primary scene,
and in this case, that would be where Charlie died
I think died. You know, he hit the ground right there.
That's primary because that's where the body was. Secondary, you

(16:40):
got kind of a neck and neck race. You've got
the what they have identified is the place where the shooting,
where the shooter was saw fascinating image that they took
with crime scene markers up there. The roof is covered
in gravel. You can actually see where the gravel is
depressed in the shape of a body, so you know,

(17:01):
you can appreciate like shoulders, elbows, you know that sort
of thing, and then you can kind of see over
the ledge. The POV from there is down and this
is a downward if if what they're saying is accurate,
it's a downward shot about two hundred yards out for
a range kind of a you know it's going to say,
on a flat trajectory. Then you have that scene which

(17:24):
is going to you can harvest all kinds of stuff
in there. If he was up there for a protracted
period of time. I thought one of my thoughts was,
how are you going to get to that level without
being seen with this weapon unless you broke it down,
unless you went up there after hours, put it up there,
way to come back again. That goes to scheduling. You're
familiar with the victims schedule, where they're going to be,

(17:48):
what time of day they're going to be, you know,
when to get up there, when it's going to kick off.
Then you think about where the weapon was deposited. Anything
is game out there, so around the area talked about
kind of a brushy area, maybe bushes, trees, that sort
of thing. I think it's kind of part of campus,
but not really part of campus. A lot of campus's

(18:10):
mind does have had like a meditation garden. It's got
trees all around it and that sort of thing. And
then where was he headed? You know, because there's CCTV views,
that would be what's referred to probably as a tertiary scene,
so primary secondary tertiary. Was he going to a dwelling
or was he going to a car? You know they've

(18:30):
talked about a lot about a church parking lot. Did
he go and get in a car, there was there
somebody there to pick him up. What kind of CCTV
is there there? And then wherever his domicile is, that's
also a tertiary scene. You and I can tell you
that if I rolled up down there, probably state police
crimising people down there to see his domicile. They went

(18:51):
through the same stem Stern. So you've got multiple locations,
you know, where you're trying to track all this stuff down.
I would imagine the named the name suspect. His parents'
house is going to be a location as well that
they're going to get a warrant. They're going to get
through there, all of his belongings because they're viewing this,
I mean, the authorities are treating this as a political assassination.

(19:13):
So there are a lot of eyes on this at
various levels in law enforcement.

Speaker 6 (19:17):
Yeah, so much that is unknown, so much to uncover,
as you said, so many different sites to investigate even.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
I mean listen, if you're the Garans, dad already turns
him in, so I mean they would probably have to
just expect at at this point.

Speaker 3 (19:32):
And yeah, and it's.

Speaker 4 (19:34):
My understanding that Dad went to maybe the church to
talk to his pastor about like his son confessing or something.

Speaker 6 (19:42):
What's being reported, Yeah, what's being reported is that Dad
went to a youth minister that the family knew through
conversation with that speaking with youth pastor, they reached out
and then the US marshals facilitated a peaceful surrender between
Dan and Tyler, which I'm sure that was. I can't

(20:04):
imagine actually how that would have been orchestrated to me.

Speaker 4 (20:07):
And it's my understanding that as of right now, he's
being like woefully uncooperative.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
Did you guys hear that too.

Speaker 4 (20:15):
He's not cooperating with law enforcement on a motive or
anything like that, Like he's not talking.

Speaker 3 (20:23):
Right right.

Speaker 4 (20:26):
I just think it's interesting, Like we were talking about
maybe the idea of him wanting to get caught, right
like the bullet casings. He drove his own car. Apparently
I read something about a great challenger. He didn't really
hide his identity, he didn't hide anything about him. It's
almost like he wanted to get caught. But now he
gets caught and nothing nothing.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
It's interesting.

Speaker 6 (20:48):
What we do know is that twenty two year old
Tyler Robinson he's being held without bail. He's at Utah
County jail, and we will expect the formal charges Tuesday,
so in two days and then those you know, stay
tuned as more information comes up.

Speaker 3 (21:03):
But in the charge by the State of.

Speaker 5 (21:04):
Utah, yeah, that's my understanding. The Feds might have a
say in this too, so keep your eye. I would
really keep my eye on the US Attorney in Salt
Lake City. Keep your eye on that office too, because
there might be federal charges. Feds have interest in this case,
so they will at least be working very closely with
the state authorities. We'll see what else they do. I

(21:25):
know this this is going to be a full court press.
The governor in Utah has already said and oppressor, he says,
I just want everybody to know that we still have
the death penalty in Utah, so this is on their radar,
trust me.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (21:39):
So you know, we'll know more as those formal charges
do come out. But in the meantime, this is true.
Crun Tonight, We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong, lucky enough
to be here with Stephanie Leidecker and body move in
and also to be joined by forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan.
We've been talking about the assassination of Charlie. And again

(22:00):
we will keep going as the story evolves more in
the coming days. But Joseph, we wanted to talk to
you about crime con, even just starting with explaining what
is crime con. And we know that you had many,
many appearances, so yeah, tell us everything.

Speaker 5 (22:20):
Yeah, I think I've been to every crime con except
for the first one, which was in Indianapolis, and I've
been to two in Great Britain. And so we giving
out keep the road hot or the sky's hot, going
back and forth. This last one was held in Aurora, Colorado.
They called it Denver, but it was actually an Aurora.

(22:40):
At give a big shout out. Hey, maybe they'll sponsor
us Gaylord resorts and Gaylord Resorts in Aurora, one of
the most beautiful resorts that I've ever seen. Oh really,
Oh my god. Yeah, And they needed all of the
space because this was the biggest crime con yet. I
think they were estimating about eighty five hundred people. I

(23:01):
did times. I did a live recording of body Bags
where I explored the origin of my name. I'm named
after a homicide victim, and then I did another one
with my friends over Cross Space podcast. We talked about
the alleged New England serial killer. You know, it's spent
on everybody's tips of their tongues. And then I did

(23:23):
a whole session I just taught. I taught about post
mortem interval to a crowd of about fifteen hundred people,
just learning what the debt or say, you know, in
death with their body language through science by the way,
So that was that was a great time. And then
we myself and miss Nancy Grace, we spoke to a
room of about thirty two hundred people in the case

(23:44):
of Ellen Greenberg, which is something that she and I
have been deeply involved in now for well over half
a decade.

Speaker 4 (23:51):
Now, I guess I saw I was. I was on
face sorry stuff. I was on Facebook earlier today and
I was reading I mean that all the crime con
groups because I present did many times at crank Con
and I.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
Wasn't able to go this year.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
But so there was this really nice write up about
your segment about Ellen Greenberg. And I didn't know if
you had seen it or not, but this woman said
that she senior presentation on Ellen Greenberg, and she lives
in Pennsylvania and she was inspired by your presentation with
Nancy and wants to start, you know, advocating for Ellen Greenberg.

(24:22):
And I just thought you would like to know that
that you inspired.

Speaker 5 (24:26):
Well, that's wonderful. I did another presentation in the UK
this past September. I think, no, I can't remember so fun. Yeah, yeah,
it is. And you know, the people in UK when
they heard the story, Hellen's story, you know, put in
British terms, they were gobsmacked, as I say, they couldn't
fathom it, particularly all of the releases that were done

(24:48):
to the public, the unsteady hand on the wheel, if
you will, and this the lady that wrote this nice
note is a Pennsylvania resident, which is where the Ellen
Greenberg case actually takes place, actually in Philadelphia, and it
has been something. Ellen was an only child and her
parents are well up in age now and God bless them,

(25:09):
Joshua and Sandy Greenberg. They have spent their entire life
savings mortgage their home just to keep Ellen's name out
there and just about bankrupted him. And she was brutally,
in my opinion, murdered. She stabbed over twenty times, found
in her locked apartment, multiple stab wounds not just on

(25:30):
the anterior chest but into her back as well, and
one that even brushes up against her spinal cord. I've
never seen a case that the manner of death has
been changed with such great frequency. Never ever, in all
of my years working for corners and medical examiners, hers
has been changed three times.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
Three times.

Speaker 5 (25:51):
Yeah. Initially the doctor of the prins of pathologist, doctor Osborne,
came out and said that it was a homicide. Then
he went into a closed door meeting with the DA
and the police. Police were asking for suicide, and.

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Police were asking for suicide.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
Makes total sense, you know, obviously when you commit suicide
with a knife, you know, yeah, yeah, the stab wounds
are so excessive that.

Speaker 5 (26:19):
You know, I got to tell you to see these
kind of injuries. First off, they're associated in my in
my estimation at least with an overkill. You see these
like this a lot of passion involved. You see this
a lot with sharp force injury cases. The first thing
that you know, every stabbing I've ever had, multiple stabbing,
has always been a homicide. I've had people that were

(26:42):
mentally in balanced, that had real issues that have cut
themselves and it wound up being fatal, but it was
never to this degree. Biomechanically. If you're in the sound
of my voice right now, biomechanically, just try and imagine
you've got a kitchen knife that is driven into your
driving into your back, down your spine and in the

(27:04):
pain centers alone. We know what a paper cut feels like.
Can you imagine a serrated blade that you're sticking into
your body over and over again. It's horrible, and you know,
I find it really interesting. Let me throw out an
interesting bit of trivia to you guys. Discovered company that
manufacture this knife. I try to buy one because we
did a reconstruction of scene and they were so expensive.

(27:26):
The company is Cutco is the name of the company.
Guess what company they bought. They owned k Bar.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
Oh.

Speaker 5 (27:35):
So, not that those two things are necessarily associated, but
two cases involved in short sharp force injury that have
played prominently so far.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
I know that because of the search warrants. Yeah, the
only reason I know.

Speaker 5 (27:47):
So there you go.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Joseph Scott Morgan is back with us, host of the
hit podcast body Bags, and we're talking a lot about
his I don't want to say performance because that's not
the right word, but I know you did many panels
of which we're with Nancy Grace at Crime con Ellen Greenberg.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
This case.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
You have been talking about this, this case kind of
like a frontman for many, many years now, So we
were going through some of the semantics. Courtney is wearing
her weighted vest. We often both do to help the posture.
Do you know what it is?

Speaker 6 (28:22):
I lean so far into the microphone because I'm so
interested in what everyone's saying, and this reminds me to
not hunch my back.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
So both have like we have shoulder back issues.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
But it looks like a bulletproof vest to the naked eye,
so catching me off guard. But yeah, so back to
the forensics here, Joseph, because this case is pretty unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
Boddy, you were going to do a little bit of
a summation for.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
Us, Yeah, like a summary suffering everybody kind of up
to speed if you're not familiar with the case. So,
Ellen Greenberg, she was a twenty seven year old Philadelphia
school teacher and she was found dead in her apartment
during a twenty eleven blizzard.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
She had extensive stab.

Speaker 4 (29:07):
Wounds, as we discussed in the previous segment, but they
were extensive and bruising. Initially it was ruled a homicide,
and later it was changed to suicide. And since then
her case has faced, you know, a lot of public
and professional scrutiny, and you know, rightly so, and it's
culminated in legal appeals and just recently a statement from

(29:30):
the original pathologist rejecting the suicide determination. But because this
pathologist is no longer you know, practicing or whatever, he
no longer works for the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office, his
changed opinion carries no official legal authority.

Speaker 3 (29:49):
And does not alter the death certificate at all.

Speaker 4 (29:52):
So there's kind of like this legal quagmire right now
with this investigation is I think that's kind of the
best way to explain it. It's kind of up in
the air right now because the guy who originally said
this is what happened is changing his mind, and because
he no longer works there, it doesn't care any weight.

Speaker 5 (30:06):
Yeah, doctor Osborn sent Florida. Now. Yeah, And a lot
of the faces and actors have changed, but some of
the well, let's just say, some of the people that
are in power have gotten gone onto even more powerful positions.
So I understand, you know, that's that's really the rub here,
As the board would say, uh. And for I think
for us, uh that look at this case just based

(30:30):
on forensic stuff, it kind of you know, a lot
of us. I'll put it to you this way. If
a group of forensic pathologists were to get it to
get together and they had a case like this, this
is the kind of case that people would write a
journal article about, they go to meetings and present. I'm
just talking about from a forensic stent.

Speaker 4 (30:50):
So so if I saw an illustration of her of
her wounds, it's it's nothing graphic.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
It's just an illustration.

Speaker 4 (30:58):
And there were literally like one hundred knives coming out
of her back. Yeah, and then and then her front
area too, like her chest and neck area, and it
was just it was just illustrating all the wounds that
she had and how many times she would have had
to stab herself. Yes, it is crazy to me.

Speaker 5 (31:18):
You're you know, I'm glad you pointed that out, because Buddy,
I got to tell you something. Yeah, what's really fascinating
about this. And the image that you reference is something
that Greenberg's they're investigators, they generated this for everyone. If
you'll imagine holding a knife in your hand and it's
in the blade is in the vertical plane, so sharp

(31:40):
edge is down, the blunt side is up. This weapon,
this knife, actually enters her body and rotates several times
so that the sharp edge is on the top the
blunt edge is on the bottom. Then it rotates to
the horizontal plane. So not only are you stabbing yourself

(32:02):
multiple times, you're also rolling the knife in your hand
and readjusting it and stabbing again. Some of the trajectories
are up, some of the trajectories are down. Some of
the trajectories are front to back and back front straight on.
It baffles the mind when you begin to think about
the idea that you're trying to sell us on the

(32:27):
fact that she stabbed herself twenty times, and it just
seems I'm not going to say empirically impossible, but I
would say that this would be such an outlier. She
had just sent out, she had just sent out saved
the date cards for her wedding. You know, she was

(32:47):
making a fruit salad at the sink. I mean, I
don't know, maybe that's a very contemplative place for some people,
but you're cutting up a fruit salad and you suddenly
decide to attack yourself. Yeah, this is super bizarre.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
It really doesn't make sense.

Speaker 6 (33:05):
And then I understand that Ellen also had more than
ten that you had about eleven bruises that were in
different healing stages. So what does that tell It tells
me a lay person, but as something what does that
tell you as a forensic expert?

Speaker 5 (33:19):
Well, you know what I got to tell you with bruising,
something I have a real heart for in forensics and
did for years, and it's so horrible, but it's some
One of the jobs we have to do is the
investigation of child deaths and if you have a child
that suffered from chronic abuse, impact injuries, that sort of thing.
One of the things that we do at autopsy is
age contusions, and all of us can identify if you

(33:43):
get if you bump into into a coffee table, all right,
and your shin gets bruised, you know it's going to
go from red, it's going to turn dark, then it'll
go green, that discussing green, and then it'll go yellow
and fade or resolve. And so these a lot of
these contusions that she has are in very states of resolution.

(34:06):
And that's another troubling fact. And one more thing, and
this will really blow you away. She has a contusion
on the antier aspect of her neck overlying her trading.
The guys, I got to tell you, looks just like
a handprint, and it'sn't.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
Her cause of death wasn't asphyxiation.

Speaker 5 (34:30):
The right, No. And you know what I think that
handprint could have been. It's a it's a control point.
As you're holding with one hand, you're stabbing with ever
like this, and you can either do that. You can
either do that antiorly where you're pressing like this and
maybe you're restraining her from her front side, or you

(34:53):
can reach around frontwards and stab in the back like this.
It's an interesting certainly a very interesting image. And you
know who first really laid eyes on that was her dad.
And let me tell you what other forensic pathologists had
an interest in this case.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
I am sad for this.

Speaker 5 (35:15):
Well, I am sad too. But doctor Weck, Cyril Weck
consulted on this test. God read this case, God rest
his soul. He's passed on now. He said everything he's
seen was consistent with homsuck.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
Well, Henry Lee too, right.

Speaker 5 (35:28):
I don't I think that that doctor Lee did get involved.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
But that's my understanding as well.

Speaker 5 (35:34):
Yeah, but from a forensic pathology standpoint, this runs contrary.
There's also a neuropathologist that took a look at Ellen's
tissue from her neck and her conclusion was she she
only admitted this in a deposition. This was not This
was not in a report that she had written. It

(35:55):
came out in a deposition. She said that the spinal
cord that one these injuries, spinal cord. There was no
hemorrhage in the wound track. That's a post mortem injury.

Speaker 4 (36:06):
And it's also my understanding that the guy who called
ninety one one is her fiance and he said that
she was in a locked house.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
The door was locked.

Speaker 5 (36:16):
I had a gatelock on it. Yeah, that's a gate lock,
hotel lock, you know it just okay, chrome, I mean yeah, sorry,
looks like a brass ball.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
They lever exactly like a little bit of a lever.
And is there any assertion as to who or why
if in fact this was a homicide.

Speaker 5 (36:38):
No, there's not. And one of the reasons I submit
to you, I submit to everybody in the sound of
my voice, is that from Jump Street, the police wanted
to handle this as a suicide. Why why? Million dollar question?
And with a suicide. What happens when you show up
on a scene as an investigator and people start throwing

(37:00):
out the term suicide, suddenly your interest level. There's somebody
there for the police, it's wrote for them to do
a suicide investigation. Now the EMMY investigator was out there,
our view is completely different, and they did a bang
up job out there. The Emmy investigator that came out
from the Emmy's office wasn't a doctor, It was actually

(37:21):
a LA investigator, and they did a bang up job.
They did a thorough examination of her remains as best
they could out there. But you know when you got
the cops saying, okay, let's close it up. It's suicide.
And within a couple of days, you know, the apartment
owner was allowed to clean the apartment.

Speaker 6 (37:38):
What yeah, boy, that is really not standard at all. Listen,
this is true crime tonight, And if you have any
questions for Joseph Scott Morgan, our forensic expert who is
telling us about this case of Ellen Greenberg, give us
a call. We're at eighty eight to three one Crime.
We would love to hear from you and Joseph, I

(38:00):
understand that not only was the apartment cleaned right after this.

Speaker 3 (38:04):
I guess we'll call it tragedy.

Speaker 6 (38:06):
Since we don't know whether to call it homicide or suicide.
But also that phones, laptops, and credit cards were removed
from the scene before police had a warrant.

Speaker 5 (38:18):
Yeah, that was my understanding. Somebody's family member was allowed
to go in there and retrieve these items. But again,
there's no need for a warrant, right because this is
a suicide. It's now family matter, you know, whoever's domiciled
in that apartment.

Speaker 4 (38:38):
How often does it happen that law enforcement would go
to the medical examiner and say, we want a suicide
out of this.

Speaker 5 (38:45):
I've had it happen to me. Yeah, yeah, and it
generally it happens in most cases in my personal experience.
I can't speak to everybody else. It's just my little
slice of PI, y'all. Most of the time I've had
people not necessarily suggest that I do it, but just say, hey,
you know, what, is there any way you can rule

(39:07):
this as an accident? He had wife, kids, and many
times that happens. You get that, That's happened number times
in my career where you've had police officers taken their
own life and it's something that I would never participate
in because I can go to prison for that, and
anybody in my field could because it's fraud. But cops

(39:29):
coming in to pressure and listen. There's no recording of
that meeting that took place with the prosecutor and the
police and the emmy. All we know is that he
came out in the in the manner was changed.

Speaker 4 (39:42):
M I just feel like that is like such an egregious,
horrible part of the investigation. The medical examiner should never
be led right like down a path. Ever, No, I
remember watching I can't remember what doc I think. I
think it was making a murder and whatever. I don't

(40:03):
know anything about Stephen Avery if he's guilty, and that's
not what this is about. But the DNA expert had
a note from the cop that said, hey, we would
really like it if the DNA belonged to this person
or something along my goodness, and I remember going, what
the heck, and the DNA expert was like, yeah, this
is the I just thought that was crazy, and so

(40:23):
it's kind of what it reminded me of that moment
in court with Steven Avery.

Speaker 5 (40:27):
I just thought a bit of sign speaks for itself.

Speaker 4 (40:34):
Right, that's the thing that science should lead you, not
like your pals you know in the in the office
three doors down that you know, maybe you have a
beer with after work, Like this is real life, life
changing information.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (40:52):
So somebody went in and took the computers and the
phones and those things in credit card words and whatnot
before police had a warrant which undermine the chain of custody.

Speaker 3 (41:05):
But did they ever get a hold of those that equipment.

Speaker 5 (41:10):
I can't address that directly. I don't know. I think
they did. But the problem is is that again, how
do you validate that once it's passed through Yeah, person's hands, anything,
anything can be said, Lawyers can say anything they want to.
Once it's not in the possession of the police, that
it could have been altered in some way. Yeah, And

(41:32):
so that's one of the reasons why our supposition is
from day one, any death that we work is a
homicide until proven otherwise. And if you fall away from that,
that mantra in my business doom await you. So you
treat every single case is if it's a homicide, I
don't care if it's an eighty eight year old mamma.

(41:55):
That passed away in her sleep. I have suspicions when
I show Seene, I just have to prove myself wrong.
But I have to start with homsaw because if you don't.

Speaker 3 (42:03):
You have to start with the worst thing ever.

Speaker 5 (42:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (42:06):
Well, also, just to keep the evidence, Christine, to keep
the chain of custody alive, to allow it to be
a prosecutable case.

Speaker 3 (42:15):
Should it actually be a prosecutable case. Wow.

Speaker 4 (42:19):
So that's why we're at where we are because of
all the shenanigans that went on early on in the investigation.
And apparently the fiance has like a powerful family and
this is like a problem.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
That justice is not being had.

Speaker 4 (42:31):
But they recently won a lawsuit, right, the Greenbergs won
a lawsuit in regardless.

Speaker 5 (42:37):
Yeah, and just I think within the last week there's
been another delay. It just seems as though I don't
know they just I have real thoughts about the way
this family has been treated. And I've got to tell you,
they're just kicking the can down the road, y'all.

Speaker 6 (42:52):
Well, we wish them the best. Yeah, and thank you
for sharing that really important story. And this is true crime.
Tonight's with us after the break we are talking about
the case of a nineteen year old boy whose body
was found on the side of the road inexplicably, also
the famous Elliott Rogers shooting. Keep it here at True
Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
You know, all of this talk about who the potential
shooter was and the recent arrest of Tyler Robinson, who's
allegedly the assassin in this case, has really brought up
a lot of conversation about radicalization online in sort of
the dark web, and we're doing a podcast about it

(43:44):
that's a bit of a deep dive, but also it's
making us think of Elliott Roger. You guys will remember,
you know, he went on a murder spree. He was
a self identified in cell, which is again this radicalization online.
So we're going to do a bit of an unpathed
of that case as well, specifically the forensics, so more

(44:04):
on that, but again, please join the conversation. We're so
happy to have the band back together and feel free
to join. Let's go to a talk back right now.

Speaker 7 (44:13):
Michelle with one Il here from Tampa. My question is
about Aaron Patterson eating the beef Wellington and then she
said that she ate lemon cake, the rest of the
lemon cake, which made her bowet ill and throw up.
So my question is how long would she have to
get rid of the mushrooms before she had the physiological
effects of the poison? Thank you and I love your show.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
What a good question, Joseph. The digestion process. Here you are,
you eat a poisonous mushroom, God forbid, and beef Wellington
by the way, beef is very hard to probably digest
as well. What do you think, Joseph, that's a great question.

Speaker 5 (44:51):
Yeah, it is when you're talking. And this was the
death Cat mushroom by the way, which you know was utilized,
was weaponar in Australia and highly toxic. One of the
problems is you initially present with gastoniritis, which you know
you'll have like stomach pain, diarrhea, nausea, sweating, those sorts

(45:13):
of things.

Speaker 3 (45:14):
Sound there, but yeah, big reveal.

Speaker 5 (45:21):
You can. You really feel miserable. And the problem is
with this particular toxin is that it goes into a
dormancy period. This is terrifying and you think that you're
past the gastone writis the next thing you know, you're
in the back of an ambulance fighting for your life
and it immediately it's so toxic. What's happening behind the scenes,

(45:45):
and you really can't sense it is it is attacking
the liver and the kidneys, so you're going to have
like a multi system failure. And the problem with poisonings
many times for clinicians when they have people that roll in,
people in the merchancy rooms are not thinking death cap mushroom, right,
They're not. They're thinking, Okay, where's he been, what's he eating?

(46:07):
And they're going through that list. That's why poisoning is
such a stealthy weapon. And you guys ought to do
an entire night on poisoners because it is absolutely fascinating.
Their their psyche is completely different than any other killer
out there. Oh yeah, yeah, they are stealthy. You know,
they're plotting, methodical, they tend to have a lot of

(46:28):
rage that's really stuffed down in them, and it's the
perfect weapon, perfect weapon. Almost I'm done.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
We should do that.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
Because there was also that case of the of the
wife who was making those shakes for her husband every
night and the.

Speaker 5 (46:44):
Husband. Yes, yeah, there's like two other ones that come
to mind to me.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
I was thinking of the wife a different one, but yes, yeah, there's.

Speaker 5 (46:54):
A lot of them. You could go all the way
back to the taalenol murders, you know, which they've done,
done to death, but you know that that's been done
for forever and ever. I was actually on a show
many years ago called out of Australia called Poisonous Liaisons,
and it was that's all they talked about. Absolutely, That's
where I learned a little bit about the psyche. I'm

(47:14):
more interested in toxicology, but I gotta tell you it
was kind of fascinating.

Speaker 6 (47:19):
It is, And in this case, I think anyone who
is interested in this case is about to get as
much information as they want. Because Simon Patterson, so he
was the strange husband of the now convicted murderer Aaron Patterson.
So he is reported to be releasing a tell all
ten episode podcast into the allegations that has a strange

(47:41):
wife attempted to poison him, not just this once, but
on multiple occasions.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
So she did it before.

Speaker 4 (47:48):
Yes, he still ate her food after she tried to
poison him.

Speaker 5 (47:53):
This not the fatal event. He did was a present
for it.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
Oh okay, okay, gotcha?

Speaker 5 (47:59):
Wow, Sorry, but he had come close to death. He
was hospitalized and in ICU and they thought he was
going to die. He had to go through multiple surgeries.
That's how insidious this tocsin is. And she went at
it again.

Speaker 4 (48:13):
And she was sentenced. Aaron Patterson was sentenced to three
life sentences for murder and a twenty five year term
for attempted murder, all to be served concurrently, and she
was given a non parole period of thirty three years.
And it was the first sentencing in victorious Supreme Court

(48:33):
that was broadcast on live television. So the country of
Australia had a massive interest in this case.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
And then very much so, Yeah, it was very divisive
and yeah, the first televised imagine how how much that
became the topic of every conversation. We've gotten so many
talkbacks and messages about it.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
Yeah, we have. I remember he Hailey.

Speaker 5 (48:57):
Right, Yeah, I did it twice on Bodybags because it
was so intriguing. And I've got and I'm sure that
you guys do too as well. You might not be
aware of it. Australia is fantastic true crime and so
I've got a lot of fans in Australia and New
Zealand and they were hands down, they were really fired
up about this sort of thing, because I mean, it

(49:17):
would be bizarre here. It's particularly bizarre there because they
don't have the same level of home subtle violence that
we do. They don't have that kind of thing as
much down there as we do here. And it really
captured because it's so it's because you know, you've got
a family, a lady that is attacking a family, her
own family, whether they be estranged or not. Her kids

(49:40):
are in the room. She made them a separate meal
in uncontaminated cookware and they didn't get sick. This is
at the same gathering, so she had planned us out. Again,
this is something we've talked about before, y'all. It's the
idea of intent. Man, you talk about intent a case
like this. How much pla to go into this?

Speaker 4 (50:01):
Yeah, she lured them over, saying that she wanted to
talk to them about her cancer diagnosis, and that's why
the kids weren't at the table.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
That's what she said. And this actually killed his parents. Yes,
so he now he's doing a.

Speaker 4 (50:14):
Ten episode podcast about the murder of his parents basically,
and the attempted.

Speaker 3 (50:18):
Murder of him. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
And she didn't have cancer, by the way, So that
was where also she does not have cancer.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
That was a fabricated of course it was because she's
a nut job.

Speaker 6 (50:30):
Yeah. What kind of a psycho do you need to
be to be foisoning people in front of your children?
I mean, well, listen, Joseph, thank you for putting all
you know, we have had so much outreach about it.
Thank you for the forensic sort of deep dives so
we can understand all the multi dysfunction in the kidneys.
And watch your plate, watch your Wellington.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
I guess right.

Speaker 5 (50:51):
And you know I've always wanted to have a good
beat Wellington and now this completely put me off.

Speaker 4 (50:55):
I've had the kitchen it's so good, please get it.
And the risotto, Oh my god, it's delicious. Gordon Ramsay,
and how you're in Vegas Crime Con twenty twenty six.
He'll ditch you go, It'll be We'll all be there.

Speaker 6 (51:07):
We'll be representing true crime tonight on iHeartRadio and Yeah
expect us. I'm Courtney Armstrong here with stephil Idecker and
Body Moven and joined by Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert.
If you want to join our conversation, give us a
call eight eight eight three to one.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
Crime and Stephanie.

Speaker 6 (51:26):
You'd mentioned earlier the assassination of Charlie Kirk, which has
led to just many conversations about the suspect, who it
appears has been radicalized online. The ideology is a big
question mark right now.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
We don't know. We just don't know. But as you mentioned,
it has gotten us talking and thinking and remembering Elliott Roger.
So would you talk about that a little bit.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Yeah, Elliott Roger, you'll remember, was a college student and
again everything seemed pretty status quo. He came from a
a nice mother who loved him very much, and he
was off to college. It's in a very affluent area.
So again, somebody who's you know, mobiley, who's upwardly mobile,
I should say, big life ahead. And this guy, allegedly,

(52:15):
not so allegedly, was online in the deep dark corners
of the web and was radicalized into being an in
cell and an inceell is something that we talk about
in our upcoming podcast, and it's this very strange word,
or at least it appeared so for us for many,
many years. We've been following in cells for a long time,

(52:37):
and suddenly it seems like it is everywhere in the conversation.
And again to your point, we were seeing this a
bit with the Tyler Robinson arrest. So body, can you
break down a little bit about what the chads are
and kind of both sides of the coin.

Speaker 4 (52:53):
Yeah, Stacy and Chad's so in cells basically believe that
they're cursed by their genetics. Okay, they're not good looking
enough to have romantic partners. They dislike women because of that,
and they also dislike the men that are successful with women.
So it's not that they hate women, they don't like
Stacy's and Chad's. And Stacy's are the women that they,

(53:17):
you know, kind of put on.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
Pedestals of beauty.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Let's say, kind of like a Barbie type sort of
say that, right, yeah, like, you.

Speaker 4 (53:26):
Know, whatever society deems beautiful, right, And then the chads
are the men that are successful, and so those are
men that have maybe in Elliott Rogers case, a man
and a woman were sitting basically on a park bench
at the beach and seemingly in an embrace of some kind,

(53:47):
he will walk up to them and throw coffee at them.
And those would be Stacy's and chads, and those are
the people that in cells have rage over and.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
They have rage over each other in this online group. So,
you know, imagine you're in your mom's basement or you're
off at college and your mom thinks you're studying going
to parties, but instead you're online being radicalized. And in
a way, it's almost like there's a little bit of
hate and a little bit of revenge and a little
bit of envy all wrapped up into one super bomb.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
If you will.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
And an Elliott Roger's case, I think that was the
first real case that came on the scene that we
had all followed and heard of. He also left an
infamous manifesto, and in that manifesto, you know, body, this
is again your territory.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
I hate to walk on it, but.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
No, please, you know, the lead in that, you know,
generalization of his manifesto was what the manifesto itself like?
Was there something in general in the manifesto?

Speaker 4 (54:48):
It was just his complaints about life and how he,
you know, is a gentlemanly man who deserves all the
things in life, and one thing after another, you know,
from his father to his mother to his you know, family,
and his genetics and being short and et cetera. Everything
was everybody else's fault. That's basically what the manifesto was,

(55:10):
and it went into detail about his childhood, how he
was raised, his mother's boyfriends. Like it runs the gamut
of complaints. It's kind of a whiny bible, right, But
it's important to know though that Elliott is kind of
like a hero to the in cell community. It's also
important to note that just because you're involuntarily celibate does

(55:32):
not mean that you're violent. And just because you are
an in cell and identify self identifies an in cel
communicating with other inceels online, that also doesn't mean you're violent.
Like this hardcore sect of him are right, that were
basically making the news, but it just means that they
have kind of despair over their life. In most cases,

(55:54):
it was started by a female. By the way, this
movement there and there are female in cults, are called
theem cells. That's right, The in cell movement was started
by a female.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
Was a woman.

Speaker 4 (56:02):
She was kind of lonely and started like an online
community kind of complain about it, and of course the
manosphere joined in and kind of took over the movement
and now they congregate on They used to congregate on
Reddit a lot but they got banned in twenty eighteen.
But now they have their own forums, privately owned that
they can control, and they congregate online and in discords

(56:24):
and things like that and complain about Stacy's and Chad's
and many of them.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
That's all they do.

Speaker 4 (56:30):
They just complain and they have camaraderie with other fellow
in cells that understand their pain.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
Right, it's their community.

Speaker 4 (56:37):
Other people, just like in every other kind of subculture,
take things too far, and Elliott was one of those people.

Speaker 6 (56:44):
That's right, And in his manifesto a few things that
stood out to me was describing women as a plague
and that them having their women having their right to
choose their own partners could hinder the advancement of humanity.
So there is a lot of the hate and the
rage come out. So listen, stick with us. We're going
to have Joseph walk us through the forensics of this

(57:04):
Elliott Roger case. We are also going to be covering
some other cases, so keep it here True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
And we are digging into the forensics now of kind
of one of the more infamous in cell cases of
mass murder, Elliott Roger. He you know, took the lives
of really of almost as though he hated anybody who
was enjoying true love or having fun at university, seemingly
people who seem to have it all when he himself

(57:47):
felt as though he had nothing. You know, Joseph, it
had very interesting forensics because the manner and weapons were unusual.

Speaker 5 (57:54):
Correct, Yeah, you had a blend. You had a blend
of sharp force weapons, knives, and then he also had
two separate nine millimeter handgun platforms. So here's a mind blower.
When they found his vehicle, he had a lot of
magazines that were preloaded with ammo, like tons of it

(58:17):
looked like he's going to war. Had in total five
hundred rounds of live ammunition nine millimeters ammunitions they found
in the vehicle. And as horrible as these deaths are,
it would seem as though he was prepared to go
quite some distance to kill many people, and he seemed

(58:39):
to be on a mission. You know, it's one thing
to start out stabbing people and then you kind of
move it the next the next cycle here where you're
going to start killing again. You have firearm. Yeah, it's
an interesting blend. You don't normally see that. And where
you have an individual that will transition from a sharp
force up into a handgun. It kind of begs the question,

(59:02):
you've got so much ammo, why didn't you just use
use the handgun for everything.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 5 (59:08):
Rifles and go to shot or to go to handguns,
but generally knives to handguns.

Speaker 4 (59:13):
So the total number of people that he killed were six,
and the three people he killed initially were his two
roommates and their friend. And in that situation at their apartment,
that's where he used the knife. And I always found
it interesting that he used such a personal weapon for

(59:35):
the people he knew and for the people he didn't know.
He kind of just did you know. I just always
found that I don't know what that is very interesting.
Go with me for there, go there for sex.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
So if he uses a knife, which again I've learned
this from Joseph, has sort of an intimacy to it.

Speaker 3 (59:52):
Imagine, you know, it's face.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
To face Mortal Kombat, really right, and it takes a
level of thrusting and removing and you know, what a mess.
So you would imagine you would never want to look
somebody that you know right in the eye or you
know that seems oh now that we're talking it out,
you know, we should abandon this immediately. It just sounds

(01:00:14):
like we're trying to explain the mind of a I
know and you saw the maniac, right, you can't. But
it is an interesting connection that that does seem more
personal and something to use on someone you know better barbarically.

Speaker 4 (01:00:27):
So this all happened just so if everybody is not
familiar with the actual crime itself. This was in late
May of twenty fourteen. May twenty third of twenty fourteen,
Elliott Roger killed six people and injured fourteen others in
an Ila Vista community near you see Santa Barbara. And
he first stabbed his two roommates and their friend at home.

(01:00:49):
Then he attempted to attack or sorority, but he couldn't
get inside, if you guys remember that part. And then
so he's standing outside the sorority and he starts shooting, okay,
and he shot three women. He killed two of them,
and then he killed a man at a deli and
continued driving through town, shooting and hitting pedestrians. There was
a short shootout with the police and he was wounded.

(01:01:13):
He crashed his car and died via suicide. So there's
also the weapon of the car at this point too, right,
because he killed himself using this car, so that could
be technically a weapon.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
Yeah, So he he went on.

Speaker 4 (01:01:29):
It was basically a rampage and he ditched weapons and
used different manners along the way. It all started around
seven thirty pm. He went to Starbucks and got a coffee.
Then he goes back home and he started stabbing his
roommates and their names were Chen Wan and George Chen

(01:01:52):
along with their friend David Wang. And then about an
hour and a half later, Roger he drove to the
Alpha Phi sorority house, but no one would answer the door,
and he was very pretty aggressive in his knocking and
nobody answered the door. So then he just kind of
turned around and started shooting people that were just walking
down the street, and too you know, he shot three.

(01:02:15):
He killed two, Catherine Cooper and Veronica Weiss, who were
walking nearby. And then about ten minutes later at nine
twenty seven is when the first nine one to one
call came in nine point thirty. A few minutes after that,
he drove to the Deli mart, got out of his
car and shot and killed student Christopher Michaels Martinez. He

(01:02:37):
might have been a chat in his eyes, right, he
might have. He's out enjoying life, and you know, who knows,
he might have been a chat in his eyes, or
he just might have been on a rampage.

Speaker 3 (01:02:45):
We don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:02:46):
Approximately nine thirty three pm, after shooting Christopher, Roger exchanged
gunfire with the sheriff's deputies and he fled. After a
super chaotic pursuit that only lasted a few minutes. Roger
continued to shoot at people in his car driving down
the street and hit several again. He wounded fourteen people,
and then he crashed his vehicle into a parked car

(01:03:08):
and that was the end. So, yeah, he was definitely
on a rampage and he didn't care who he killed.
He had no regard for human life.

Speaker 6 (01:03:17):
Joseph Elliott Roger he had legally purchased these three semi
automatic can guns that were found in his car during
the attack, and he said that the glock thirty four
he considered it an efficient and highly accurate weapon, which
is something that was included in his manifesto. Any thoughts
on the glock thirty four or accuracy.

Speaker 5 (01:03:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's a highly dependable weapon. Particularly back then.
You know, it's an again, this is an Austrian Wow,
same show, same night. I'm talking about Austrian made weapons.
So glock is an Austrian product. It's been highly reliable.
People don't aesthetically, they're not much to look at people

(01:04:01):
that purchase guns, but they're very efficient at their job.
He also had a sixth hour, which is also another
European weapon, highly effective, particularly back then. In my personal opinion,
I think that were better made and these were high
end weapons well, particularly the sig back then nowadays not
so much. It would have been very expensive to purchase.

(01:04:24):
So he was very well prepared. And yeah, I mean
weapons for anybody. It's like shoes, you know. You people
that fire hand guns, they have brand loyalty. There are
certain aspects to them that they find they can smoothly reload,
are that the cycling on the weapon is very smooth
and dependable. It doesn't jam. So people can have a

(01:04:47):
multitude of reasons why they like a particular weapon, but
yet over all the glock is highly effective. A lot
of police departments around the country that's their go to weapon.

Speaker 4 (01:05:00):
And the knife he used was a boar hunting knife
and it's a long, fixed bladed knife and the blade
is about nine inches long. And they found in his
house other knives that weren't used in the attack, but
another one was a zombie killer that is also a
fixed bladed weapon.

Speaker 3 (01:05:16):
It's ten inches long.

Speaker 4 (01:05:18):
And then they also found a couple folding knives and
a machete. They found a machete in his apartment, Like,
who is a machete nobody else?

Speaker 5 (01:05:28):
Well, you're out in the country and you're clear and brush,
they're pretty handy to have.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
But no, yeah, not at university in Santa Barbara, where
there is no brush to to really work through. You know,
he was in fact a stashing weapons and he was
collecting them and he was creating a pile of weapons
for what would one day be his his going out
with a bang party, which is what we saw. Very

(01:05:54):
performative in a way and also so senseless. So I know,
will never answer the why in this, but again it
is he became sort of the poster child of in cells.

Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
And they celebrate him.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Many people celebrate him, And that's why it's so important
that we discuss it and unpack it, because right there
is the double kill in this not only did he
senselessly murder six people?

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
Since then, Elliott Roger has become.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
Sort of this this revered person online for these very
insidious actions.

Speaker 3 (01:06:34):
It's hard to believe.

Speaker 4 (01:06:36):
Yeah. Every year in May they celebrate the anniversary of
the attacks. Seeing that insane, I mean, how is that allowed?
They sell t shirts with his images on it. It's
called Saint Elliot Day. They also refer to him as
er going er. So like, for instance, that there's an
attack by an in cell of a self proclaimed incel,

(01:06:59):
it's a known cell, they'll say, oh, he went er.

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
Good for him.

Speaker 4 (01:07:03):
He's definitely somebody they hold in high esteem. Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
Yeah, he's kind of.

Speaker 4 (01:07:08):
The reason that in cells were brought to mainstream media attention, right, Like,
he's one of the first I think documented violent in
cells I media.

Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
I'm wrong by that, but.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
It's the first one that I was aware of the
first same and once that case happened, it was something
that if you knew, you kind of knew, but it
certainly wasn't a common thought now today, I think, based
on Brian Coberger and the hideous murders in Idaho. While
he is not a self proclaimed in cell, he definitely

(01:07:42):
checks many of the boxes and that ideology seems to
kind of crack and also now ish, you know, listen ish,
but the idea of being radicalized online or just feeling
so excluded in the world that somehow you find your
people who violent online because you feel so disconnected from

(01:08:04):
the real world.

Speaker 4 (01:08:05):
Right, you know, there was an attack in Canada in
twenty eighteen. Alec Menison killed eleven people and injured fifteen
others in Toronto, and he drove this van into pedestrians.
And before the attack, before this happened, he posted on
his Facebook profile that said this, and I'm going to
read it exactly because it's important I get right private recruit,

(01:08:25):
medicine Infantry zero zero zero one zero. Wishing to speak
to Sergeant four Chan please. The in cell rebellion has
already begun. We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacy's
all hail the Supreme Gentleman, Elliott Roger and four Chan.
If you don't know what four chan is, it's like
an image board. It's anonymous. The threads only last a

(01:08:46):
while and they disappear, so it's frequently visited by in
cell types to post the most horrific images and never
be caught, so you know, he's he's referencing these dark
corners of the Internet that these cells hangout.

Speaker 6 (01:09:01):
Woof yeah, and he I mean you mentioned Saint Elliott's
day and then also his manifesto I know has been
just widely also revered.

Speaker 3 (01:09:10):
Elliott Roger also stated.

Speaker 6 (01:09:12):
Women should not be given rights right their wickedness needs
to be contained to avoid the risk of humanity and
quote falling into degeneracy. Can you describe for anyone who
hasn't seen the video, can you sort of describe the
video that of Elliott Roger sitting in his car?

Speaker 3 (01:09:30):
Are you trying to me? It's so scary? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:09:33):
Yeah, so I yeah, he's just sitting in his car,
and it's kind of like the Golden Hour, right, It's
it's like the Beautiful Beach is kind of in the scene.
I think it's in the scene. I haven't watched it
in a really long time, you guys. But he's just
kind of going through his manifesto. Really, he's summarizing his
manifesto and he's lamenting about how unfair life has been
to him. And in cells really do believe that they're gentlemen.

(01:09:56):
You know, you'll often see like kind of like memes
about like guys and fedoras saying I'm a nice guy.
That's how they are. They think that they are very
deserving of a stacy, Okay, And so he's just kind
of lamenting about, you know, how his life has been
marred by all these outside influences that have nothing to

(01:10:19):
do with him. It's not his fault that he's a
short guy who can't, you know, meet women. It's the
women's fault for not finding him attractive. And no matter
how many times he tries to looks Max, which is
another thing in sales, do they looks Max and mog
No matter what he does, the only thing he can
do is be rich, and he can't even do that

(01:10:40):
right because he's spending all his money on lottery tickets. Like.

Speaker 3 (01:10:43):
It's just a crazy.

Speaker 4 (01:10:44):
Video and to sum it up in just like a
really short time is kind of hard. But I'm doing
the best I can. It's just it's just a crazy
It's it's out on YouTube. You'd have to go watch it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
Yeah, it really is. It's astounding.

Speaker 6 (01:10:55):
And also, honestly, I'm rather astounded by how I don't
know if you'd call it calm, his visage is or.

Speaker 3 (01:11:04):
If it's just I don't know before the rage boils up.
But it's striking.

Speaker 4 (01:11:08):
It's striking, it is, and I don't know that we're
ever going to quite listen, We're not in celts.

Speaker 3 (01:11:13):
How are we going to understand it?

Speaker 4 (01:11:14):
But you know, stick around. This is to your crime Tonight.
We're going to be talking about this and much more.
Keep it right here at True Crime Tonight. We're talking
true crime all the time. Thank you for joining us.

(01:11:35):
We are going to be diving into the Noah presgo
Grow case. And it's a case that Joseph has actually
talked to me about before, and I've seen a lot
a little bit on social media, but I don't know
a lot a lot about it, but it seems like
there's some kind of cover up and I'm all about it.
So I am dying to hear about what you have
to say about this. Tell me about Noah Presgrove.

Speaker 5 (01:11:56):
You know, for me, we've been covering this. I've been
on the case for I don't know, essentially since it's happened,
because it was so markedly bizarre. You've got a young
man who's only nineteen years of age, and this is
actually to give a geographically kind of orient people where
this is. This is in an agricultural based area in

(01:12:16):
southern Oklahoma, but it's not too far away as the
crow flies from the Dallas area, So you're just I
mean literally the county of Butts, Texas that he's from.
That gives you an idea kind of isolated. And that's
important here because you know, when Noah's body was found,

(01:12:38):
he was lying just off of a roadway and it's
very sad. He's nude, with the exception of a pair
of mismatch shoes. One was like a hey dude and
the other was some kind of sneaker, and some of

(01:13:01):
his clothing was found on side the road, neatly folded,
not too far away from him. And so he's just
got massive injuries. And I think a lot of people,
a lot of people assumed that, you know, he was
struck by vehicle and that that accounts for these injuries.
But he's got he's got injuries that are on multiple

(01:13:22):
planes of his body, from literally his feet to the
top of his head. As a matter of fact, top
of his head is missing. There was a bit of
his scalp that was found literally on his buttock, and
another piece of a scalp that was out in the
middle of the road.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
Yeah, and his clothes were folded neatly.

Speaker 5 (01:13:39):
Yeah. Yeah. And various teeth as well have been knocked out.
They were found scattered about the road and he's got
cracked teeth. You know, some of these things in isolation
are you would expect to see with a motor vehicle accident. Okay,
and those probably everybody in the sound of my voice
is at least had a fender bender at some point time.
You know what it feels like. But if you're a

(01:14:01):
pedestrian versus a vehicle, it's very violent. As you can imagine.
There's a number of things that happened to your body
and go over the vehicle. You can be cast aside
with a bumper strike, or you can go under the vehicle,
which is what we refer to as they sustain rollover injuries.
It's like being in a tumble dryer. And so there's
certain things that we look for. To date, the medical

(01:14:25):
examiner in Oklahoma's left this case undetermamined and you know,
we're two years down ranged from it. And the reason
I wanted y'all my friends to hear about this young
man is that his family has recently filed a lawsuit
because they just want answers. They don't feel as though

(01:14:46):
that they're getting answers, answers in regards to NOSEDA.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
How could they There are no answers that they're getting
at all.

Speaker 5 (01:14:54):
Yeah, there's really not. They got their boys remains back,
and of course they have uestion, so I think a
lot of people do, and they want to try to understand.
He had been at a party at this home. And guys,
this party was over a long holiday weekend. I think
it's Labor Day.

Speaker 3 (01:15:13):
Labor Day weekend, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:15:14):
Labor Day weekend, twenty twenty three, and parties started, y'all.
The party started on that Friday prior to and they were,
you know, putting the hammer down. They were partying all
weekend long. There's a lot of drinking. Of course, Noah's
under age, he's nineteen years of age. There was an
adult in the house, maybe a couple along the way,
and a large bevy of friends that were there as well,

(01:15:38):
and they were up to tom foolery. You know. They
had been on an ATV. There had been an ATDV accident.
I think Noah was operating in the vehicle. There was
an argument apparently. I don't know how adjacent to that
event it was, but there was a lot of dynamics
that were going on. And I think that, you know,

(01:16:00):
speaking for the family on any level, don't misconstrue what
I'm saying, but I think the family they want every
person involved in this that was there, they want a
statement from them under oath, you know, in a deposition,
I would imagine, try to get to the truth.

Speaker 6 (01:16:18):
I just for people who aren't very familiar with this
tragic case, I just want to provide a little bit
more background information to follow all of this important information
you're giving us. So, as mentioned, Noah Presgrove's family recently
filed a wrongful a civil wrongful death lawsuit, and in

(01:16:38):
it it accuses seven individuals who were at this multi
day party, as well as a local convenience store, for
playing a role in his death. Because nineteen, you know,
everyone was underage or the people mentioned. So, the suit
claims that Noah was beaten to death by one or
more of the defendant and apparently this was after an

(01:17:02):
ATV accident caused tension at the party, and the allegation
is there was a civil conspiracy to conceal the truth.
Those that have been named in this civil suit include
Noah's best friend, party hosts, family members of the host,
and again that convenience store providing alcohol and this seems

(01:17:25):
convenience for providing alcohol to underage guests.

Speaker 3 (01:17:30):
That's right, body.

Speaker 6 (01:17:31):
Yeah, and the people who have been named, one of
whom was Noah's best friend. This really is a little
heartbreaking to me. Their legal Their legal response argues that
Noah himself assumed the risk by drinking excessively and that
he himself was negligent and that contributed to the fatal outcome.

(01:17:56):
So this is I can't imagine what's happening these parents, but.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
My best friend, Yeah, think about that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
This is these are people who you know outside of
the convenience store, you know, person who sold the alcohol.
These are people that Noah knew very well. Perhaps even
the parents all knew one another. Noah's nineteen years old.
I mean, frankly, who hasn't had a weekend of boozing
back in those days where it starts on Friday and

(01:18:26):
you know, you know, you're rolling into Monday hoping for
the best. This is no way to turn up and
you would think that people that were at this party
would be looking out for their friend and wanting to
find justice.

Speaker 5 (01:18:40):
Well yeah, and also look full disclosure. I have to,
I have to, you know, reveal that Noah's blood alcohol
level was almost twice a legal limit, so very it was.
I think it was like point one four if I'm
not mistaken, as opposed to the point zero A you
know that you normally have.

Speaker 4 (01:19:00):
Are there any pictures of this party that we that
are out in the public, Like, are there pictures of
him the day he died? Like is he wearing mismatched shoes? Like?

Speaker 3 (01:19:11):
Is this meat?

Speaker 4 (01:19:11):
Because he was so drunk he didn't really like is
is there any documented history about it?

Speaker 2 (01:19:17):
Even if you are at a party and somebody you
love is just you know, banana is drunk. They've been
drinking all weekend there, they haven't been eating.

Speaker 3 (01:19:26):
It was very dehydrated. This is you all of last week.

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
We would never let this happen to you, no because
your friends A would look out for you. And then
God forbid, there is something lost in the sauce and
tragedy hits and you know one of your own turns
up this way, wouldn't you be bending over backward. Now
I am allegedly, allegedly allegedly, we are not, you know,
pointing fingers, but it's it's amazing to me. And we've

(01:19:53):
seen cases like this before, unfortunately, where a very large
group of people are at a party and then that
very large group but people goes missing when the party
goes to court or when it's time to really remind
everybody would happen that night, even if it was a
messy night. Okay, let's just piece together the facts so
that you know, Noah's poor family can at least get

(01:20:16):
some resolution.

Speaker 4 (01:20:18):
Yeah, but seven people keeping a secret, like it's.

Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
Impossible to imagine because it seems impossible.

Speaker 4 (01:20:24):
But I mean, it also seems impossible that somebody would
get hit by a car and their clothes would be
folded neatly on the side of the road. That's crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:20:34):
That's very strange.

Speaker 6 (01:20:35):
And bodies well about the pictures investigators as well as
the family's public private investigator. Rather, they have gathered some evidence,
some texts, some videos, some snapchats, but there is no
public confirmation of what actually happened at the events. So

(01:20:55):
that's being close holes And I guess we'll probably come
out in the civil try, m'd imagine, and Joseph, is
there is there anything? Is there anything else that people
need to know about this case?

Speaker 3 (01:21:10):
It really is.

Speaker 5 (01:21:11):
Yeah. I think I think probably the most striking thing
here is the violence. The violence that's that's part of this, uh,
you know, the level of trauma that this kid sustained.
And one of the one of the real problems is that, Uh.
I think most people look at this and they think,

(01:21:34):
how in the world, uh could anyone could anyone believe
that this was singly, singularly a one off event, uh,
where he was merely struck by a vehicle. And I
think Tom will tell we'll we'll learn more as time
goes by.

Speaker 3 (01:21:52):
Hmmm. Wow, it's just a lot. It's a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:21:57):
No, it definitely definitely is a lot. You're listening to
True Crime tonight and I heart Rater where we talk
true crime all the time. I'm Body Moven and I'm
here with Stephanie Leidecker, Joseph Scott Morgan, and Courtney Armstrong
and we're you know, we've been talking about Noah Presgrove,
which case I kind of knew about, but I'm learning
a lot more right now, and I understand we're going
to be taking a talkback.

Speaker 3 (01:22:17):
Let's take a talkback.

Speaker 8 (01:22:19):
Hi Thansley from Canada. My question is for Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph,
I was listening to your other podcast, body Bags, which
I heard about from this show and I love. I
was listening to this week's episode about Travis Decker and
you mentioned there was his bloody handprint in the truck,

(01:22:45):
and I was wondering if you had any thoughts on
where that came from. Anyways, looking forward to having you
back on Sunday. Bye.

Speaker 3 (01:22:54):
Thanks Ames Lee always so from you. Look at this
little cross pollination of the pie.

Speaker 2 (01:23:00):
Joseph, Well, I mean, is that too much or is
that too much?

Speaker 3 (01:23:04):
Ainsley? No, no, no, not at all.

Speaker 5 (01:23:06):
And thank you for solicit Canada. Thank you. Wow, we're
really making around, Like.

Speaker 3 (01:23:12):
She says body Bags. I know.

Speaker 5 (01:23:15):
Well, it's important to know that, you know. I think
that this was probably I don't want to use the
word Titanic struggle, but I think that Travis Decker was
in a very distressed state of mind. Somehow he has
injured himself. I don't know if maybe he cut his
hand when he was trying to, let's face it, take

(01:23:36):
the lives of these precious little girls or not. It's
hard to know, but I do know that that there
was deposition of blood that tied back to him. And
we have to remember also contained inside of those bags
that he used, that he weaponized. Inside of those bags,

(01:23:56):
he his DNA was found in there, almost like he
has slipped his hands in there to pull them down
over these children's heads. And same DNA is found on
the outside of the backseat, I believe. So, you know,
that's certainly an interesting bit here with that, But again
we haven't found his remains. There were bones that were

(01:24:18):
found because those bones were animal bones and they were
in proximity. And look, I got to tell you, I
think that anywhere you go you're going to find animal
bones in a wilderness area. But what it does show
is that the police and the investigators are doing their job.
They're literally still looking and they're turning over every stone possible.

Speaker 4 (01:24:40):
I mean, a bloody handprint, though, that to me means
like a lot of blood, Like it's not like he
just cut himself on a zip top, right, yeah, or
something right like.

Speaker 3 (01:24:48):
That's he had to.

Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
Have cut himself with the weapon that he was using,
and as a result put that print on the vehicle.

Speaker 3 (01:24:54):
Maybe to cut rope or something.

Speaker 2 (01:24:56):
I would imply that he was slightly nearby, because that
would be kind of a staggering injury. And we know
he doesn't have medication and was clearly dealing with mental
illness and and and and you know this level of
wilderness and brush that he would be trying to escape through.
He has either escaped to Canada, as his you know,

(01:25:17):
his search would suggest, because that's what he was researching
prior to the murders, or maybe those injuries you know,
got the best.

Speaker 3 (01:25:28):
Terrible. This is a terrible I.

Speaker 4 (01:25:30):
Still can't believe that he's not been found. I mean
this happened in June. Yeah, where three daughters at the campground, right, and.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
His poor mother, poor extraordinary eulogy, and yeah, I just
need some closure. I wish we were ending on a
little bit of a higher note here, because Travis Deckerman
really knows how to bring the room down.

Speaker 3 (01:25:52):
On all fronts. Oh boy.

Speaker 2 (01:25:55):
But like, let's just hope law enforcement is able to
bring him in if in fact he's still alive. You know, Joseph,
there is something incredibly comforting. I don't know what the
right word is but I'm going to go with comforting
because that's how I find you. When you come on,
and certainly in coming on in times that the world
seems a little upside down, or a little sideways or

(01:26:17):
just a little confused, you somehow make us all feel
a bit more grounded, a little bit more settled and
in control. So thank you for being here with us again.
Body Bags the Potty Podcast three times a week. I'm
crazy for the two of you, Body Welcome back, Courtney
ah Wow, And for everybody listening, please let's have a

(01:26:39):
great week. Sending you so much love. Please be saved
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