D4vd Mystery Continues, the Yogurt Shop Cold Case Solved and Travis Decker Forensics Explained

Death investigator and host of the hit podcast Body Bags, Joseph Scott Morgan joins to discuss the body found in singer D4VD’s car, evidence that led to the culprit in a decades-old infamous cold case, and the forensics of Travis Decker’s body. Plus, breaking down what “Body Farms” are and their crucial role in the study of forensics. Tune in for all the details. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Sunday, September twenty eighth, and
we hope you had a fabulous weekend. First and foremost,
we should acknowledge that Courtney Armstrong is not with us tonight.
I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Body Move In. And because
it is scientific Sunday, we have our beloved Joseph Scott Morgan,

(00:41):
the host of the Body Bags podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
Three times a week.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
I might add Body Bags if you haven't listened, so
please check it out on the iHeartRadio app. We are
breaking all kinds of forensics down this evening and we've
been getting a lot of your talkback, so keep them
coming one eight eight eight three one crime or hit
us up at our socials, or you can continue to
leave us a talk back throughout the night to talk

(01:06):
to Joseph directly real time. So before we go any further, listen,
it's been a hard weekend and we want to acknowledge
that everyone is thinking about Michigan and North Carolina right now,
unspeakable loss.

Speaker 4 (01:19):
You know, we don't even know.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Where to start with it. These are stories that are
evolving real time. Of course, in Michigan, four lives have
been lost, and in North Carolina three lives lost, and
it continues to be just an ongoing thing. In another
stacked night of headlines, We're going to focus mostly on
the forensics tonight, So unless you want to join the

(01:41):
conversation and say otherwise, we're really going to focus on
the science and the spirit of keeping that comforting because
there's a lot to unpack that we have been talking
about all week in cases that we haven't been able
to do a real big deep dive into, specifically the forensics. David,
the pop Stars still been no arrests. Frankly, not even

(02:03):
a suspect has been named. Boddy, you have some really
very up to date information that will unpack with Joseph.
And then also of course this Travis Decker case, you
know Dad's remains, he was you know, in custody, he
had his three daughters in his custody and their lives
were tragically lost. And now we're going to unpack the

(02:24):
forensics to that as well. And there's also been this
really big break in the yogurt shop murders.

Speaker 4 (02:30):
I don't know if you guys have been following that.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
It is unbelievable, is right? This goes back thirty four years.
There was a documentary about it on HBO, very very
good worth watching, please do for three lovely four lovely
young children teens at the time. Yeah, they lost their
lives in this yogurt shop and it's been unsolved, and

(02:53):
there seems to be this huge development that really will
put a real end to this story. And it's a
complicated one, so we'll unpack that as well.

Speaker 4 (03:03):
And then we're going to do a crime.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Lab little session with Joseph Scott Morgan. That's our new
working title, Crime Lab with Joseph Scott Morgan for the evening,
where we're just going to really look into all things science, forensics,
things that maybe we see or talk about or think
about in various cases, but we might not know totally
what it means.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
So we're going to do a little unpack of that
as well.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
So if you have any like just general forensics questions,
we have the guy here to answer them, so please
jump in and join the conversation.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Courtney's at her high school reunion.

Speaker 4 (03:39):
Fun. Oh no, how fun, nothing but trouble.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
So I'm sure she's been whooping it up and love
and life and we'll have tales to tell when she
is back tomorrow. But in the meantime, it's just us chickens, right,
So welcome and let's get to it.

Speaker 4 (03:53):
Buddy, Where would you like to begin. I'm gonna start
with David. I mean I have to. It's been on
top of my mind all weekend and I've been following
it all weekend, and you know, this is a case.
It's making national headlines. It's the tragic death, and you
know it's being reported of a fifteen year old. Let's
face it. So Leus was fourteen, okayr Plus was fourteen.

(04:14):
She was discovered on December eighth, I'm sorry, September eighth,
twenty days ago, and her birthday is September seventh, so
she was fourteen when she died. Okay, So I'm going
to moving forward. I'm going to refer to her as
a fourteen year old. Her body was discovered in a
decaying state, you know, the fronk of David's Tesla. Authority

(04:34):
stress he has not been named a suspect, but the
mystery of how you know she ended up in this
car has left you know, the public demanding answers, including yeah, right,
like we want to know it's opened to this little girl. Tonight,
we're going to dig a little bit deeper and go
into some of the forensics, maybe not necessarily body forensics,

(04:54):
but the things that we know about this tesla and
the things that we do know about the state of
poor Celust. Right. So, I have an associate. His name
is Stephen Fisher, and I asked him if I could
you know, use this information, and he said, no problem,
of course. And he's a private investigator, and he got
a hold of His name is Stephen Fisher on Twitter,

(05:17):
it's s f Underscore Investigates. You can find him on
Twitter x whatever you want to call it. So he
got a hold of the pictures that the LAPD left
when they were ticketing the car, and he also got
a hold of the vehicle report and the state of
the car that it was in, you know, when this

(05:38):
was all discovered, and I've got it all and so
I kind of wanted to go into this a little bit.
So the quick timeline of this car is that the
initial call came in and on the September third, somebody
goes out to the car, okay, and investigates it, and

(05:58):
they take photos of this car and I have them,
and the car is very dusty, you guys, Like it
is so dusty it looks like it's been sitting there
for quite some time. Okay. Then two days later they
come back because the ticket, you know, is basically moved
the car and it hadn't been moved. So on the

(06:20):
fifth is when they took the car and we really
see the detail of this car. The back of it
has a dent in it like it's been rear ended.
And then the left or the driver's side back tire
has damage on the rim. It's almost like this car
was in some kind of accident. And I don't know

(06:41):
if it has anything to do with Celeste, you know,
untimely passing. But it is interesting that the car also
has like tape on the spoiler, like duct tape. Different
colors too, like blue and silver duct tape. I don't
does that mean something? I don't know, but it seems
it seems it's intentional, right, It does seem intentional. It's

(07:02):
very weird. And then when you look in detail of
this car, you know how when your car sits for
a minute, like and you're parked under a tree and
the area where your wind ChIL wipers are, there's like
debris in there from the tree. It looks like that
has to have been sitting there for quite some time, right, Like,

(07:23):
it looks like it's been sitting there for quite some
time to me, I would say three weeks to a
month maybe even from the dirt on this car. And
this is in southern California. Obviously it's not raining a lot. Right.
If this had happened, say in Ohio, I think that
it might have rained and left these spots. But this
is southern California. It's not raining. That is true.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
And just to add to that, what you're implying or
what that would suggest, is that even though David this
pop star who is a star, this is his big moment, right,
he's on tour, he's touring for the very first time.
And while on tour, the car that was registered to him,
his Tesla, had a decomposing body in the trunk, which

(08:07):
is really in the front in the tesla so it's
called a front and that car in the Hollywood Hills,
I know.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
This street actually very well affluent area.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
By the way, that car was impounded, and in while impounded,
body is discovered because of the decomposing smell.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
Two sides of this. Either, does that.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
Mean that David had an alibi when the body was
discovered he was obviously on tour. If your timeline is
accurate and that car had been there for a long time,
that changes the timeline, right, that would mean he maybe
was not on tour yet.

Speaker 4 (08:41):
And that's, you know, harrowing.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
I find it really interesting that we just have not
seen anything about this. Why has there been no arrest
or no person of interest or any chatter about an
arrest to come. This young girl was she's a baby, right,
she was like left for dead. She did not put
herself there. There's also one little backstory of mom. She

(09:05):
was missing since she was.

Speaker 4 (09:06):
Reported missing in April of twenty twenty four, right, so
a year and a half ago. Let's say maybe a
year and four months ago. And again, I want to
go over this timeline very quickly. The original complaint of
the car being abandoned came in on August twenty sixth. Okay,
so that's the first date somebody called and said, hey,
there's this car that's been sitting out in front of

(09:27):
my house for you know, a month or whatever. They said,
I do believe SF investigates. Again, the private investigator that
got this scoop said that the neighbor said it had
been sitting there around a month. Okay, So August twenty sixth,
and the cops came in sighted the car on August
twenty seventh. They came back on September third, and then

(09:47):
they came back again on September fifth and told the car.
And then of course we know Celeste was discovered in
the front of that car on the eighth. So that's
the timeline.

Speaker 5 (10:00):
Ask a quick question for it's actually for Joseph that
ties in with a lot of bodies talking about I
know that they said they didn't I guess, smell the
body until it went to the pound or the impound
place that the car was at. Wouldn't they I don't
know how strong an odor is. Wouldn't they have smelled
it if it was on the street. I see how
the cars park near it, Like how strong of an

(10:21):
odor is a decomposing body and strong.

Speaker 6 (10:24):
And particularly given us the southern California heat, you have
to remember at friends, as all of you, as all
of you guys do, this was a critical time back
in August because our friends in LA were going through
the heat, stifling heat, and we at that particular time
and so as we know, heat speeds things up. Here's

(10:45):
the one thing that I'm kind of curious about.

Speaker 5 (10:47):
I got.

Speaker 6 (10:48):
I got two thoughts on this. First off, vehicles in
the road. It's not just people that towed it. I'm
familiar with this area as well, a friend that used
to live by Chateau my mom, which is right right
in that area. And I know that I've seen people
walking dogs. People love dogs in the right and I'm thinking, okay,

(11:09):
you're walking down the street with your dog. Walking the
dog actually would work on something like this. And I
can't imagine that they're not picking up unless the seals
are so tight in this car. And then when it
was jumbled going down the road, maybe at that point
in time when it gets to the compound lot, you

(11:30):
might not have that you know it presents at that
particular time. That's something that that has been very intriguing
to me about this. And also, there are cases out there,
and I've worked a couple of them where people will
place decedents into abandoned vehicles because nobody's gonna, you know,
if it's an abandoned vehicle. But we're not We're not

(11:52):
talking about average everyday Americans here. We're talking about this
guy's rent at this house. It's twenty k a month,
which most of us can't even fathom.

Speaker 4 (12:04):
Twenty k a month is rent? What?

Speaker 6 (12:07):
Yeah? And so, my goodness, I got to tell you
if I'm living in a neighborhood where rent is twenty
k a month, I got questions that there's a car
out on my road, on my street, adjacent to my home.
Why is this Jilope even though it's a why you know,
a tesla? Why it's got a dent, it's got Texas plates?
Why is this thing on my road? And why have

(12:28):
you not come to do something about it? Because I
don't want to pay this kind of money for a
house and look out there and see this iesore out there.

Speaker 4 (12:35):
And it banged out too.

Speaker 6 (12:36):
It's filthy, it's banned up, it's got out of state plates.
It just doesn't make sense to me that no one
picked up on.

Speaker 4 (12:43):
This, right, one last little quick thing.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
They did say that I can't believe his rent was
twenty k a month.

Speaker 4 (12:48):
Let me just like gulp that.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
But past that, the landlord of this twenty k a
month place did say that there were cameras, you know,
at the front entrance and it's not really hidden. It's like,
you know, this is a really specific part of Los Angeles.
It's very hilly, and you don't really have like an
entrance way. There's not like a front yard per se.

(13:10):
Like the street and the house are like one of
really close together. Yes, exactly, and kind of like you
see in the movies. It's the Hollywood Hills, right. So
the fact that a car would be sitting there yet
there were cameras, according to the landlord, that would have
really placed that vision of a camera on the street.

Speaker 4 (13:30):
You're absolutely right. In fact, he said it was a
pretty advanced security system that they had installed at this house.
But we don't know who has acces us to this, Like,
did you know the occupants of the home have access
to the security? We have no idea.

Speaker 6 (13:44):
Right, here's the real key here. Those aren't the only
cameras Tesla. The Tesla I heard somebody the other day Listen,
I don't have a tesla, all right. I heard somebody
say the other day there could be as many as
eight cameras on this vehicle. Not to mention, there's also
a facial camera when you key into this thing, so there,

(14:07):
you know, And that's what I'm wondering. Have they downloaded
had they gotten into the guts of this thing and
downloaded all of the data off the same body? And
I know that it and and and you know, technology
is really your your bag here. How long would that take?
I can't imagine it take that long or download that
data from it.

Speaker 4 (14:25):
The one thing that I don't know, Joseph, is how
long it was sitting there, and also how long, like
once these things lose juice it's.

Speaker 6 (14:33):
A book, right, does it purge in some right?

Speaker 4 (14:36):
And that's one thing that we don't know. And if
if David was paying for like the cloud storage is
it could be indefinite. But we don't know those details.
And we don't know what like package he had, you know,
associated with this car, because you have to pay like
the Century Service, yeah, to get you know, all this
additional data. And we don't know if he had that
or not this package I would assume did. How could

(14:59):
we not have that information? Will be tesla that cops
will well listen, stay with us. We're going to continue
this conversation because I am not done talking about Celestrious Hernandez.
Thank you. Keep it right here. True Crime Tonight, We're
talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. We made it to Sunday, everybody,
and we hope you had a great weekend. I'm Stephanie
Leidecker here with body move in. Courtney Armstrong is she's
quit of playing at her high school reunion right now.
So that's okay because we have Joseph Scott Morgan jumping

(15:44):
in for Scientific Sunday and we're taking a real forensics
look at either any of the cases that we didn't
get to last week or some of the cases that
we just didn't get into the forensics enough. So if
anybody wants to jump in a eight three one crime,
we'd love to hear from you live or of course
leave us a talkback one eighty eight three one crime.

(16:07):
The conversation is all yours. We've been talking about David
the Pop Stars car his tesla. Again, he has not
been named suspect, nor has he been named a person
of interest. The only on its nose very interesting thing
about David is that his car in the Hollywood Hills
wasn't pounded and in the front trunk the dismembered body

(16:30):
of a fifteen year old girl was found, and no
arrest seems to be made. And despite the fact that
there have been cameras, et cetera, nothing seems to be
happening here.

Speaker 4 (16:42):
So well, I'm so curious what does that mean?

Speaker 2 (16:45):
Though it's been twenty days to your point earlier twenty days,
how is it possible that young celestes life has not
been examined in a way that we have more answers?
And I wonder if it's two things. One should so young,
and if in fact she had run away and was

(17:06):
running away to David who was a bit older. Is
it that story that we're all kind of gravitating to.

Speaker 4 (17:13):
I think that's another story.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
It's a whole other story.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
Right, she went missing, mom, you know, said she was missing,
but then at some point found Celeste at David the
Pop Star's house and then brought her home again and
maybe Celeste left again. There have been notably some photographs
of them together.

Speaker 4 (17:32):
So it's a complicated thing here.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
So are we talking about that or are we talking
about the straight up murder of.

Speaker 4 (17:40):
Young Celeste Revaz and Joseph? What is happening?

Speaker 3 (17:44):
How do we not have more information right now?

Speaker 6 (17:48):
It's an active homicide investigation. I think that that's probably
the long and short of it right now. And in
this kind of how can I say it, they're in
the thin air when it comes to they being the
police when it comes to celebrity, and we all know
how it impacts any investigations. They're true, and they are
being very very careful, very cautious. And so that's my

(18:12):
take on it, because I got to tell you, if
this was anywhere else other than the Hollywood Hills or
Beverly Hills or wherever Brentwood, you might have had more
answers by now. But I'm telling you lawyers are involved
at this point, and this is I think that it's
they're aware of it. Cops are always aware of that,
and that's why there's kind of this Well, I'd say

(18:34):
that there's kind of a slow drip. There's not even
a drip at this point.

Speaker 4 (18:36):
Yeah, we have not even been a press conference or anything, right, Like, no,
there's nothing.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
I'm almost offended by it, Like why is there no
justice for Celeste?

Speaker 4 (18:47):
Well, just because it's an open investigation, they're just not
telling we haven't heard anything from the court. We hear
things all the time.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
I'm watching the National news daily and I see persons
of interests, and I see suspects, and I see you know,
evolving story, new information, and I see photos and video
from ring cams left and right.

Speaker 4 (19:07):
What is the line? We don't even have manner or
cause of death yet in this case either, And I
wanted to touch on that really quickly, if it's okay,
the manner and cause of death. So the manner of death,
and Joseph, I feel so stupid sayings in front of
you because you're the expert in this, right. I never
want to hear that word come out of your mouth again.

(19:30):
It's just silly for me to do this. But anyway, okay,
So the manner is like how the cause came about
based on circumstances. So it's like manner is like is
it was it a natural death? Was it an accident?
Is it suicide. Is it homicide? That's the manner of death. Okay.
The cause of death is the specific like injury or

(19:50):
disease that directly led to the death. So the the
cause of death is like a gunshot or a heart attack.
We don't have any of that lost nothing.

Speaker 6 (20:01):
No, don't quick question her.

Speaker 5 (20:05):
What is her right now? What are they they're saying
her it's a homicide for it's blank.

Speaker 6 (20:11):
Yeah, it's blank.

Speaker 4 (20:11):
Currently it's blank.

Speaker 6 (20:13):
And so you well, okay, here, first off, as a
death investigator, right, the way you handle every case, and
again I preach this over and over at Jack State
where it we work every death as if it is
a homicide until proven otherwise. And that's the way we
go about it because that's at the highest level. If
you treat every death like it's a homicide, then you're

(20:33):
not there's a high probability you're not going to miss
as many things, right, So you have to go in
there with that mindset, and that's hard to do for
many people, but you learn it. It's a skill set
that you learned. So now, what's what's the hold back?
And we're not talking about the police now, now we're
talking about the Emmy slash corner. They're the ones that
make that classification. It's not the police, it's not the prosecutor.

(20:55):
They're involved in this, and I can tell you there's
conversations happening right now. Here's the thing. I think, if
her remains, and forgive me, but this is kind of graphic,
if her remains are in an advanced state of decomposition,
they might have a very difficult time categorizing this in
one of the five manners. And unlike the law, where

(21:17):
you prosecute things, you have the entire cannon of the
law to choose from. It's very simple. In the medical
legal world. We only have five courses, y'all, homicide, natural,
accidental suicide, and undetermined baby. That's all we have. So
you have to classify in one of those and then
from there you draw upon your scientific examination to arrive

(21:39):
at a causal effect the cause of death. And we're
going to do this on crime Lab sometime. I'm going
to give a primer on this. You think about you
think about the five categories, you have to pick one
category that you're going to place the cause under. And
it can come if you think about a gunshot one, well,

(22:01):
a gunshot one can be accidental, it can be self afflicted,
it can be a homicide, it can be an undetermined Sure,
so right now they're fighting. They're fighting that scientific battle
is she's so far gone that you don't have enough evidence,
enough empirical evidence. Let's just say, for instance, she's got
an injury to her neck. Well, those muscle tissues, if

(22:22):
they're degraded to the point where you can't appreciate, you
can't appreciate any focal areas of hemorrhage like you would
have with a manual strangulation or literature strangulation. What I
hear in a lot of these cases, y'alls, is they'll
classified as a homicide and then they will say non
specific homicidal trauma. I've covered a myriad of cases like

(22:43):
this in the media, and they will use that terminology.

Speaker 4 (22:45):
I've heard that before.

Speaker 6 (22:46):
Yeah, this is yeah, it just means that we first off,
if what we're hearing they keep using the term dismemberment, okay,
one of the conclusions, and also concealing of a body.
Their ration, now from a legal perspective, is well, if
we why would you conceal a body? Why would you
dismember a body? So you think you have to take

(23:08):
an intellectual leap, kind of hard to prove in court.
But they're going to take an intellectual leap and say
this is gonna be homicide, and that's what they're going
to base this on. And I know that's not a
lot to hold on to. I'm just wondering right now,
are they trying to take tissue samples? Because I think
any blood draw in her is going to be pretty

(23:30):
much worthless. If they can even get blood, they're going
to do tissue samples, specifically brain and liver, and they'll
spin those down till they liquid and see what was
going on toxicologically in her system. And you're not gonna
be able to get a quantitative amount. It's only gonna

(23:50):
be qualitative. You can say, well, there was drug X
in there, but we can't say how much of it
was there, and that's a lot to hanging your hat on.
Sign tip.

Speaker 4 (24:02):
No it's not.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
But there is something that's like the big elephant in
the room. Regardless of what her cause of death was,
she wasn't shoved in a vehicle by herself. Somebody, regardless
of how she died, decided to take her a little
beautiful body and throw it in the front of a
Tesla trunk and closed the trunk on her, and she

(24:25):
left it to rot and she was packaged. So where
did that happen? You don't do that on the street.
You know, we just described these beautiful hills in Hollywood.

Speaker 4 (24:35):
I'm gonna be honest. I know this location extremely well. Right.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
No one's dragging a body out into the street and
you know, just sawing off its arms and legs and
dismembering it and then tossing it in a car.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
It had to have happened someplace else.

Speaker 4 (24:49):
This is true, Crimetonight on iHeartRadio, we're right in the
middle of talking about the tragic death of Celestreeva Sernandez.
She was fourteen years old and she was found in
the trunk of singer David's car. Joseph this required privacy.
If she was right, I'll say, yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
It did.

Speaker 6 (25:07):
H and shameless plug here I did. I did an
entire episode on dismemberment about a year ago because I'm
seeing so many more cases come across my desk, homicides
that I'm covering on body backs involving this memory. I've
never seen this volume of them at all ever, certainly

(25:27):
in practice, and then in the national news, I just
keep catching these stories.

Speaker 4 (25:31):
All the time, so experience with the more for.

Speaker 6 (25:36):
A long time. When you can go into that another time.
But I will say this, if if someone has the
intestinal fortitude, I'll put it to this. And I'm being
very kind there to try to attempt this. You need
privacy for one. Uh. You need to have proper tools,

(25:56):
because I've seen people not use proper tools and it's
a nightmare. It's a nightmare anyway. You have to have
a power source, okay, if you're going to use power tools,
or at least place to charge of battery if you're
talking about saw saws or even skill saws or anything
like that. Yeah, and you're gonna be time and you
can't be observed doing it, okay, So you have to

(26:19):
go somewhere that's sequestered in order to facilitate this. And
then you're gonna have forgive me. You're gonna have a
big damn mess afterward.

Speaker 4 (26:26):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
I was just going to say, this is not an
indoor activity either in this area. It's not as though
there's woods or a lot of land, or you don't
get lost in the sauce there. This is an inside
job in a home. I'm guessing in a home, right
And by the way, who in the right mind would
dismember a body and leave it in your own car
and then leave your own car.

Speaker 4 (26:46):
On the side of the street. Again, it doesn't seem
like a great plan.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
Well, but that doesn't really make great sense either, but
it does happen.

Speaker 4 (26:52):
Who just members a body?

Speaker 2 (26:54):
So we're again we're not dealing with regular thoughts here.

Speaker 6 (26:57):
No we're not. And one of the big thoughts for
me about that, in particular, if this precious child was
dismembered at a specific location, and if you're just having
to stow the body, bodies will begin to give off
of a smell. Even if they're even like in an

(27:19):
air conditioned structure, not refrigerator. I'm just saying air condition structure,
you will begin to smell them within about two days. Okay,
So if this becomes so intolerable, so intolerable, what do
you want to do? Well, something's intolerable, and it's in
your dwelling or somewhere some other location, a shed or

(27:40):
something like that, and you're circulating around the body. You
want to put as much distance between yourself and the body.
But you still want to be able to keep an
eye on where the body is going to be. There's
two types of people out there that dismember bodies and
try to get rid of bodies. There are those that
dismember and bury and get rid of bodies and then

(28:00):
walk away from them. Then you've got this group of
people that, for some reason, after they kill somebody, dismember somebody,
they want to hold onto the remains, even burying them
in their backyard, because they feel like they have control
over that period of time. It's a fascinating dynamic when
you think about it. I consulted on a case many
years ago where a guy killed his wife, just remembered her,

(28:21):
buried her in the backyard, and then planted a rose
garden over her.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
All right, the rose garden, I mean, what a nut?

Speaker 6 (28:28):
Yeah? Absolutely. And then the family that bought the house
that God finally sold the house. The cops had been
sitting on the house forever for a decade, and they said, hey,
we think there might be a body buried in your backyard.
Can we dig it up? Sure enough, they dug it
up and they found this lady's remains. And so it's
amazing how people want separation, but they don't want separation.
So if we're just thinking about the science of this decomposition,

(28:52):
then you don't want It's offensive on every level, so
even to the perpetrator. And plus it's a reminder trying
to get distance. Is that what happened here? I have
no idea, but it's being entertained by the police. I
can almost guarantee do that.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
And I would have to assume that a very serious
drug panel is being done as well, because again.

Speaker 3 (29:13):
Go to a drug fueled night. These are just like theory.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
Astely, you'd have to be super on drugs to take
the time to think it's a smart idea to dismember
a human body and leave it in a car for
somebody else to find. It is so messed up it's
hard to even wrap your brain around. That's why I'm
just shocked that twenty days later there's not a bigger

(29:38):
call for attention from law enforcement or a larger presence
in the media basically saying look, I know this seems
real scary, but we're on it, and we all we're
fighting it on the front line.

Speaker 4 (29:50):
I think we need to consider that they might be
very close to something and they're being quiet intentionally because
they don't want eyes on it right now, right because
extra eyes on something right now can maybe tip somebody
off or scare somebody, or you know, do somebody still
out there. There's somebody still out there at large.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
That thinks it's a good idea to dismember a fifteen
year old girl's body and toss her in a vehicle
and walk away.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
Right at some point, how do we know we're safe?

Speaker 6 (30:22):
Let me ask you a question. Do you think that
those people that live on that road stuff. Do you
think that any of them have been making phone calls
to the DA's office and Nolan you.

Speaker 4 (30:30):
Every single second, every single day.

Speaker 6 (30:34):
Yeah, because they're terrified if they're safe, if they're hearing
the news we've got a dismembered body in an abandoned
car on ours. Yeah, people are going.

Speaker 4 (30:41):
To be to be scared too. Well.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
Listen, it's Scientific Sunday and we have Joseph Scott Morgan
with us, host of the hit podcast Body Bags. If
you haven't downloaded it yet, it's on.

Speaker 4 (30:52):
Your iHeart, you're missing out. You are missing out by
the way.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
He does three shows a week, So come on, people, like.

Speaker 4 (31:00):
Where did you go to school. How did you learn
all this stuff? I'm like, I listened to the body bags.
What are you talking about? I studied at the House
of Joseph Stockmorgan. Yes, that is very true.

Speaker 6 (31:08):
Commencement exercise. Later I'll be diploma, So listen.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
My diploma is on my wall because listen, you know,
we talk about a lot of grizzly things. Joseph has
a way of doing it in a very sacred way,
and I guess it's not sensational. It's very it's very
just the facts, ma'am, and it kind of makes it
a lot more palatable. So trigger alert. We are talking
about some gruesome details as we do. We're also going

(31:34):
to start launching a new segment called Crime Lab. So
get ready, Joseph, because you are at the heart of
Crime Lane.

Speaker 4 (31:41):
Professor Joseph is here.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, he's actually a professor processor.

Speaker 4 (31:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
So we all have like our forensics questions that we
like list and then some of them are kind of
elementary and some of them are very sophisticated and we
just need to like dump them in a category and
Joseph can then answer them. So if you have any
call us eight at eight to three one Crime Hit
us up in our socials at True Crime Tonight's show
on Instagram or TikTok TikTok is crushing it, or at

(32:12):
true Crime Tonight on Facebook and.

Speaker 4 (32:14):
Shout out to my TikTok bugs.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Yes, yes, yes, we've been getting a lot of tips,
a lot of info, a lot of.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
A lot of theories.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
So we're going to read some of them maybe later
in the show, but if you want to just join
us live, please do so.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
Have you guys watched The Yogurt Shop Murders. It was
a documentary. You're an HBO Joseph have you seen that
as well?

Speaker 6 (32:34):
Yeah, kiman on. My wife and I started watching it
the other day. And of course, because I do three
episodes per week and I teach full Tom, we can
quite make it through you, and I promise you I will.
But yeah, this is a This is actually a case.
It's been on radar for a long time because you know,
it's one of those things in true crime that I
would have to say, because there's so many parents that

(32:57):
make up true crime flans, right, and this is something
that goes right to the heart of the worst possible
nightmare that any parent could ever experience on a level
of horror that most people can't even begin to plumb
the depths of. And so, yeah, it's something I've had
an interest in, particularly when I found out that people

(33:20):
have been falsely accused and falsely imprisoned, yeah, and convicted
and times. Yeah, and it's heartbreaking, particularly for those individuals.
And then not to mention, can you imagine being a parent?
Just let us think in just for a second, should

(33:41):
be an a parent? And you're being told by the authorities,
we got.

Speaker 4 (33:45):
Them exciting, right, You ain't got them devastating.

Speaker 6 (33:51):
Still circulating out there, or at least you believe he's
still circulating if you're in a.

Speaker 4 (33:56):
Constant state of suspended animation, right, Like, yes, you just
can't move on with your life. Your daughter has been killed.
Four beautiful daughters have been killed, obviously, you know. I mean,
it's just I cannot imagine being family. It's just so
sad for them. And by the way, this is a
cold case.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
So just to bring you up to speed if you
haven't follow this case, it's thirty four years old.

Speaker 4 (34:18):
Thirty four years ago, I mean nineteen ninety one.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Imagine back right, there was this you know, infamous yogurt
shop in North Austin and by the way, the exact
same chain. I worked at the food court at the
smith Haven Mall, so it was like a little yogurt
chain at that time, and these four teenagers worked there.
Two of them, by the way, are sisters. Eliza Thompson

(34:42):
she was seventeen years old at the time. Jennifer Harbison seventeen,
Sarah Harbison her sister, fifteen years old. Can you imagine
for the parents. And Amy Ayers, who was thirteen years old.

Speaker 4 (34:55):
And she's friendly with sisters.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
Potentially she was it's been like speculated that maybe she
was the target. She for sure had also been sexually assaulted.
They were tied up, they were shot, they were burned.
I mean, this was a case of all cases. And
again I'm very sorry for the graphic details, but it
was thirty four years ago, and you know, forensically speaking,

(35:18):
it was a different time and at that time everybody
obviously wanted justice and they would arrest people. By the way,
four times there were arrests. People in the media names out.
Your life is ruined if you're wrongly accused of sexually
abusing and murdering sexually abusing one for sure, possibly two

(35:42):
and then killing four young teens. They were wrong because
every single time the DNA didn't match. Until just now,
thirty four years later, they have officially they've officially linked
this particular set of murders to a serial killer who

(36:03):
was now since deceased. He committed suicide back in nineteen ninety.

Speaker 3 (36:08):
Nine, I believe, and what a horror show.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
So yes, on the one hand, there's justice, and it's
modern justice for a very cold case, which is kind
of for all of us. We're all in this to
kind of bring justice to the world, right, So I
don't know if that brings comfort to living family members
of the victims.

Speaker 4 (36:28):
I can't imagine.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
It's been an easy road and beyond measure, what a tragedy.
And at the same time it also speaks to the forensics. Joseph,
now thirty four years later, what a miracle that this
link has been made, and what a sad link it
is because a serial killer.

Speaker 4 (36:47):
So there's so much to unpack here. There's so much unpacked.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Pick aside a corner of this, Joseph, what do you
think listen?

Speaker 6 (36:56):
You know I was kind of slamming the authorities there
from a Prospects brial standpoint. But here's let me throw
out some kudos real quick. The fact and in the
spirit of crime lab, the fact that this evidence that
was collected loath these many years ago, by the way,

(37:17):
very fragile biological evidence has been preserved all these years,
that there was still enough remaining that you could do
this kind of sensitive test on it and show link
it to this individual, this monster that committed this crime.
Oh and by the by other crimes in other locations

(37:40):
over and over and over again, that even in death,
he's now known as the killer of these four young girls.
I think that that goes to the people in the
forensic section that they were because I can't tell you
how many how many case over the years that I've

(38:01):
heard about you talk about broken hearted. We've got like
a rape a rape kit crisis in America where you'll
have rape kits that are never tested on these poor
victims and they're allowed to degrade and rot in evidence
lockers and all. I mean, the stories just go on
and on. In the fact that they were able to

(38:21):
retain this these samples and still run this DNA and
come up with this major conclusion. It's it's cold comfort,
I think. On one level. And here's another piece. You
know we were talking about, you know, how these young
men were arrested. As far as the family goes, they

(38:43):
never they were robbed of the opportunity to stare across
this guy in a courtroom as he as it's being adjudicated,
look him in the eye and say, you know you
did this, you did this. So that's that's you know,
vaporized as well because of the missteps in the case.
But the fact that they got the thing salt. This
guy did not show up unprepared. And the reason I

(39:06):
say that is that you've got fatal trauma that he
rendered on all four victims. You mentioned that they were bound.
Not only were they bound, they were gagged, which he brings. Yeah,
he creates gags in order to do this. Oh and
by the bye, he brings accelerant as well, in order

(39:29):
to initiate a fire. You have one victim who they
believe probably aim that was that bore the brunt if
you will of his.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
Yeah, I'm going to say thirteen years old.

Speaker 4 (39:49):
This is hard to hear.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
By the way, So Sunday night trigger alert, just putting
it out there. Well, keep it as clean as possible,
but it's almost you have to hear it to understand
the gravity of what an accomplishment law enforcement has just had.

Speaker 6 (40:03):
Sorry, no, no, no, that's okay. And you can learn
a lot about a scene, particularly with fire. Remember when
Austin fire showed up at the scene. This thing's fully
involved and God blessed. Yeah, you know, firefighters do this
incredible job, and I will always sing their praises. I
love firefighters. Boy, I would have rather been a firefighter

(40:26):
in their cop Actually, I just love firefighters and what
they do.

Speaker 4 (40:31):
So dangerous, both of you.

Speaker 6 (40:32):
Yeah, the dangers, very dangerous, dangerous work. So after they
get the fire knockdown, they discovered three of the bodies,
and then later they discover one more body. And of
course the three primaries that they have this is to
the exclusion of amy, they have the most damage. And
that's as far as I'm going to go with it.

(40:53):
So we think the fire was probably initiated approximate because
one of the things you look for in fire investigation
is where is the primary amount of damage, Like what
if you're in a structure, you know, like in a
yogurt shop like this, where's the most damage taking place
compared to the rest of the of the location, so

(41:13):
you can look for things like accelerant. I've gone out
on scenes where you can see where people splashed gas
on a wall and set the wall on fire and
it's actually got it's actually got waves in it where
you can see that the excellant roll down the wall
and that area is burned significantly. You think about bodies,
Bodies are not greate fuel, but the area around there

(41:37):
would have been set on fire, and they were exposed
to extreme heat, amy not as much. And as it
turns out, you know, the samples that they retrieved at
the scene led them, led them back to this monster
that ended their lives. And it's it's quite quite something,

(41:58):
you know, because after this happened, he's still in the
land of the living. He gets still live another what
is it eight years, no one, and he doesn't deprive
us of his presence until nineteen ninety nine.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
And his name is Robert Eugene Brasher's and he has
no known connection neither to the area in northern Texas,
northern Austin, nor to any of the victims. So there
was this like chain. It was called I can't believe
it's not yogurt. You guys might even remember it. I do, so, Yeah,
we've all been there. The coconut was the best seller,

(42:35):
best seller in the food court. This was sort of
not in the food court. It was you know, it
was the photographs. It was like a little bit of
a strip. Yeah, so you had to walk in pretty intentionally.
And you guys remember what those days were like Here
into high school. You're a teenager, you have a part
time job. You're in Sarah and Jennifer's case, their sisters.

(42:56):
So they're getting dropped off by mom and dad and
picked up for their shift, and it's.

Speaker 4 (43:00):
Like a little bit social.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah, you cannot imagine in your right mind that some
serial killer is about to show up and do the
unimaginable things that were done to these four humans. And
for that to go unsolved for as long as it did,
and for four men to be brought in and booked
and charged and put on a news as people of

(43:22):
interest or suspects, that's a real life changer. One of them, yeah,
died without actually having his name cleared, Maurice Pierce, And
you know that is a stain that cannot go away.
So it's an important time and I'd like to believe,
or at least this is what's being said real time,
is that the documentary that was made by A twenty

(43:44):
four helped kind of move the needle a little bit,
maybe created a swell, maybe public interest became enough. Listen,
this is thirty four years ago. You think the cops
have enough to do. You think law enforcement can go
back in time till the end of days and solved
every murder that ever was. They have enough problems. There's
enough problems real time and crimes that are happening that

(44:05):
they need to pay their attention to. So hats off
to law enforcement to your point earlier that had the time,
the wherewithal to really stick with it and to really
make sure that these four, these four beautiful kids did
not go unnoticed and for this crime to not go unsolved.

(44:26):
It was the ballistics, right, So it was ultimately DNA.

Speaker 4 (44:29):
Is that the thing, Joseph, Yes, yeah it was.

Speaker 6 (44:33):
And the DNA is going to be the linkage for
everything as well. And this is listen. You know, we
go back and we think about you know, we think
about Golden State, and that's just the feeling, the tiniest
little peeling back of the veil right now, we're on that,
and I tell my kids all the time at university,
I say, listen, you're going to see things in your

(44:55):
lifetime that I can't even begin to imagine. When I'll
look back all those years when I started out. There's
so much technology. There's technology that is on that is
in bloom right now that is going to far surpass
anything we could ever have imagined. And this is an
example of it. Where these cases are going to be
solved and the idea that we're going to be able

(45:19):
to go back and resurrect, almost resurrect. You know, they're dead,
they're going to tell their stories. That's the beauty of
this to me. It is it's almost poetic in a
weird kind of way, because you know, I always like
to think of being an advocate for the dead, and
literally you're breathing life back into them all of a sudden,

(45:39):
where they're testifying beyond the grave almost. It's an amazing thing.
The world that we live in right now. Some people
say it's really dark, but guys, I got to tell you,
as dark as this case is, I'm kind of hopeful, y'all.

Speaker 4 (45:52):
Well, if I can hear, if you can hear, Joseph's
voice be shaken in your boots. If you've committed crimes,
keep it right here at True Crime Tonight, we're going
to do an introduction to crime that Joseph's got Morgan.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
Keep it right here, Welcome back to True Crime tonight
on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time, and
again we're kind of premiering.

Speaker 4 (46:20):
I think we need a premiere sound. We do exactly
of crime Lab.

Speaker 6 (46:26):
When you get the music from the Looney Tunes, I.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
Was like picturing a smoke machine and all kinds of
red carpet. But we're going to really do a crime
Lab segment where we're just really talking all things forensics,
not necessarily case specific. So if you have any questions
or thoughts you want to have answered by Joseph, please
join the conversation and body again, Travis Decker, there's been

(46:52):
so much happening with that, and again Joseph's going to
weigh in on the forensics. Please because it's been a
long week of all Travis Decker, but a lot of
movement forward and hopefully a little closer to this being
closed A closed case, right, yeahs.

Speaker 4 (47:11):
But as we know, we had the wonderful US Martials
on last week. Phenomenal, such a good, so great, so
fun and so so educational. Well, they declared that Travis
Decker deceased, right, and they did that because the DNA
matched the DNA found on the clothing of the remains
they found match Travisdecker. Well, the Sheriff's office was like,

(47:34):
we don't actually know if the body is Travisdecker. Well,
we now have confirmation that the body the DNA of
the body. If the DNAs come back, the analysis has
confirmed that the skeletal remains found in that remote Washington
wilderness they do belong to Travis Decker. But here's the problem.
Due to missing key body parts and environmental degradation, the

(48:00):
cause of death may never be determined. So we may
never know what happened to Travis Stecker. You know, we
may never know. In Joseph, what do you what do
you think that tells us about the state of his body,
because we really don't know.

Speaker 6 (48:15):
Right. Yeah, again, I'm going to issue my own trigger
alert here because what I'm going to say is something
people don't think about. The animal kingdom must be all right,
we have to understand that. And so one of the
biggest problems that you run into with with decomposing remains

(48:40):
in the animal kingdom, and if they're out in the open,
is that. First off, We've talked about this previously, the aroma,
the smell that comes off of well, for in the
animal world, you're sending up a signal at that point
and here's the body, all right. And so if you've
got scavengers, and I'm thinking in that area of the country,

(49:04):
I'm thinking potentially wolves. Maybe I'm not really familiar with
the fauna there, but that's one of the things I'm
thinking about, certainly coyotes, while dogs, anything else that might
be roaming about out there, they're looking for an opportunity
to feed. And so you guys would be amazed at

(49:25):
the stories I could tell you about dogs and skulls.
Dogs love skulls, and so many times I've worked countless
cases where dogs actually bring and I'm talking about domestic
dogs that will go out into a wooded area and
I'll come back with a skull.

Speaker 4 (49:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (49:42):
Well, I don't know about Yogi, but what I'm saying
is that dogs treat skulls like almost like balls many times. Yeah,
and they're trying to get you know, they're trying to
get to the marrow, all right, and they're feeding. But
dogs are very playful with these things. But aside from that,
certain elements have been removed. I'm fascinated by the fact
that they're not giving a specific uh cause of death. Here. Now,

(50:08):
we think about these precious angels that he murdered, right, he.

Speaker 2 (50:15):
Murdered and he put bags over their heads, three beautiful
daughters that were young children that were going for a
little trip with dad who was unhoused at the time
and living out of his car, and you know, was
suffering from mental illness and likely off of his medication
and had also served our country and was suffering potentially

(50:35):
from PTSD and whose mother and his ex wife also
raised her hand to you know, authorities and to anyone
to say, you know, I love him and I respect
him as a father, but something's not right. And this
is where this lands. And it's been months and Travis
Decker has been at large.

Speaker 4 (50:56):
And it's worth noting too to Joseph's point, I just
kind of want to underscore this just very quickly. His
remains were found in five separate locations, so and they
were it was spread like hundreds of yards apart, and
specifically his torso and head were missing.

Speaker 6 (51:12):
Yeah, and so that's that's the rub.

Speaker 4 (51:15):
So when Joseph's talking about, you know, the skull and
what I just want to I don't even to know
that even I didn't know that.

Speaker 6 (51:20):
Yeah, that's very that's problematic because one of the things
that you're looking for, particularly in people that choose to
in their lives. Uh, you know, the most common methodology
for this is firearms. Secondly, for me in my world,
there's two ways. Primary way is is firearms. Secondarily to

(51:43):
that is going to be hanging and in my in
my practice, okay, those are the two most common. So,
you know, one of the things that you look for,
and I've had these cases where people will go out
into the wilderness area and they were actually using noose.
You have to go back and literally look at trees
really if their nooses hanging. Yeah, yeah, it's very common

(52:03):
to see this. And if the body gets to the
point of kay, I've seen bodies that will fall away
from the news all yeah, they fall. Gravity takes over, particularly,
you know, the remains become more advanced in decompositions. So
the structural nature of what's holding the body in life

(52:25):
is no longer there, so the body will literally come apart.
If that happens, the same thing that's going to happen
as if the body is on the ground, So the
body kind of disarticulates at that point in time or
at least certain elements. It's fascinating that the head is missing.
And one of the things that you would look for
here is if this was a self inflicted event. With

(52:46):
skulls in particular, you can look and you look at
the primary areas where people self inflict to see if
there's a defect both an entrance and potentially an exit.
You look at there's fracture lines in the skull because look,
you know fallen that could have fallen. And also, what's
what have I taught before? Every death is a homicide

(53:10):
until proven otherwise.

Speaker 4 (53:11):
So every death is a homicide until proven otherwise.

Speaker 6 (53:14):
Yeah, there you go, And so you have to consider
all that this is done. This is done in a
very isolated area. We don't know who else was out there,
and I'm not saying that anything other than as advertised happened,
but there will always be questions about that. There will
be people that will be generating questions about it. Oh right,
you know, I can guarantee you that so, particularly if

(53:37):
your absinente skull and you're looking for those specific indicators
in the medical legal world, that we can go back
and say definitively, okay, this is consistent with a self
inflicted injury.

Speaker 4 (53:50):
And if his torso is missing, they can't look at
his organs like his liver or his heart or right,
that's a any point. That's a really good point.

Speaker 6 (53:58):
Yes, So this is what I would say. It would
not surprise me if other elements are found at a
later time, that is not beyond a possibility. Animals, particularly
burrowing animals, will take bits of skeletal remains and take
them into their burrow. Oh yeah, yeah, And what they're

(54:19):
trying to do is get the minerals out of the bone.
And this is this is a free meal for them.
They don't have to go looking digging in the ground
for things. This is there, so they're going to do.
It's a way of nature, and so that can happen.
But you're talking about a big element with a skull.
What could have happened to the skull? Where did it
wind up? It would not surprise me at all, somebody

(54:40):
might stumble upon it at some point, Tom. And also
if they're saying skull, the jaw will disarticulate.

Speaker 4 (54:48):
Too, So you got separate piece, right.

Speaker 6 (54:50):
Two separate pieces that could be missing. You're looking for
teeth as well, anything that's there that can be an
element that you can.

Speaker 4 (54:58):
It's a lot to unpacked.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
By the way, Another thing to this case that I
thought was always interesting also is that he was searching
for exits to.

Speaker 4 (55:06):
Canada with his daughters.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
Whether with his daughters or maybe post harming his daughters,
we really will never know. But it was intentional. So
this was not a snap of judgment. This was something
that it appears he was planning. And I think that
too needs a proper unpack. By the way, if you're
just joining us, jump in eight eight eight three one crime.

(55:28):
We're talking about the recent confirmation that Travis Decker is
in fact the one who murdered his three daughters so
incredibly tragically. He was like searching for all things Canada
as if he was going to escape. He had been
serving in the military, he did have some tactical training

(55:49):
back in the day, and had hit hard times. He
wasn't working and he was kind of living on the
lamb and living in his car and co parenting with
ex and you know his ex wife was concerned about
this particular trip that was outside of their co parenting plan.
She had full custody. And you can't imagine a more

(56:12):
tragic ending. So the fact that we know it that
he's at he's not at large, right, so that area
is safe and law enforcement again, hats off to the
US Marshals and every other law enforcement involved. Really dangerous stuff.
You have somebody who clearly suffers from a lot mentally

(56:32):
and is on the lamb. They put their lives in
danger to even go foot by foot by foot. Interestingly,
he was less than a mile away from where where
the vehicle was found and the children were found.

Speaker 4 (56:45):
So, oh, that's a tough one. It's a tough one.
Hard little reset here.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
But you know I am since we have Joseph here,
because it's again it's one that's in the news, but
also one of fascination I think amongst us as well.
Remember back in New York City, it was midtown Manhattan,
and you know, this man with the biggest gun you've
ever seen, as if it was right out of the

(57:11):
worst scariest movie the Street just you know, Midtown Manhattan.
Shane Timura was his name, and it was one of
those rifles. And I'm spacing on the name right now, Jo,
you'll know in AR fifteen, Oh yeah, he's like wearing
like a very well dressed suit. He's holding in AR
fifteen and walks into a building and was looking to

(57:35):
basically be lethal on the headquarters of the NFL. He
gets into the elevator again, gun in hand, and instead
gets off on the wrong floor. He gets off on
the thirty third floor, and he starts shooting and lives
are lost. He kills four human beings, then he kills himself.

(57:55):
And you know, when investigators go to his home, and
we'll get into the victims too, because I did not
want that to get lost in this story. But when
investigators go to his home, they find a note basically
he's apologizing to his mom and basically saying he believes
that his brain needs to be studied, that he's had
concussions from football. Ps he only played football in high school.

(58:19):
It wasn't like he was actually in the NFL. Imagine
if he were in the NFL. And sure enough, it
just comes in that his neuropathology I think I'm saying
that right, would suggest that, sure enough, he had these
CT scans in all kinds of issues with his brain,

(58:40):
similarly to Aaron Hernandez, also the NFL player whose brain
had been studied.

Speaker 3 (58:45):
In fact, they say of all the.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Deceased NFL players, deceased ones, ninety percent of them have
this CT situation, meaning that concus after concussion and hit
after hit on your head causes you to be super
discombobulated and oh my gosh, potentially very angry, having erratic bouts,

(59:11):
being very irrational, and frankly obviously very violent as in
this case. I mean in Shane's case, again, he was
not in the NFL. He was targeting the NFL, which
also would suggest his brain was pretty clear, because he
wrote a note basically saying, hey, study my brain, and
I think it's all about my CT scans.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
But at the same time is.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
Going out and killing four four victims that had nothing
to do with him or the NFL, not that that
would have mannered and Joseph, I'm so curious what your
take on this is.

Speaker 6 (59:45):
Well, you know, it's become pretty standard now where there
will be a an autopsy on many of these individuals
that have played in the NFL, and many times family
wants this done because they can try to understand some
of the behaviors. And you have significant brain changes. Just

(01:00:07):
imagine this that every time you're struck in the head,
you have what are called microbleeds that occur that literally
little bits of brain tissue die in that little focal area,
perhaps almost like a little mini stroke like a t
I A not quite an extent, but it happens every time,

(01:00:28):
over and over again. Also, the brain begins to atrophy,
and you see this at autopsy. That's one of the
first things that strikes you at autopsy when the brain
is taken out and you can see, you know, brain
has a very specific kind of structure to it, and
when you hold it and when you look at it,
you don't expect it to be kind of shriveled within

(01:00:51):
within the cranial vault. And many times you will see
this kind of reduction of the brain. That's an indication
that something is going on, probably trauma related, and this
is going to impact behavior through and through And just
imagine this is happening over and over and over against.

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
That's a young age too at.

Speaker 6 (01:01:13):
A young age.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
You're not you're not even like your your low your
frontal lobes aren't even formed. Listen more on this to come.
We're going to go to crime Lab. This is true
Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all the time. Welcome

(01:01:35):
back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. We've been talking a lot about
the CT scans. Am I saying that right, josephs And
do I sound like a doctor of sorts? Which we
pretty much close enough. And the case of Shane Timura.
He was the man that was carrying in AR fifteen

(01:01:57):
in midtown Manhattan, broad daylight, middle of the day.

Speaker 4 (01:02:00):
If you don't know that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Area in New York City, it's you know, it's like
kind of business y. It's packed everybody. Imagine it's like
working girl. Everyone's in a suit or you know, everyone's
going somewhere. And this guy is walking very well dressed,
carrying the largest gun you could imagine, and he's targeting
the NFL headquarters. And he goes in and instead of

(01:02:24):
going to the NFL headquarters, he mistakenly gets off at
the thirty third floor, which is not the NFL headquarters
and he starts shooting and innocent people are killed.

Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
He leaves a note.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
Later, authorities find out that he had left a note
apologizing to his mother and then begging people to please
study his brain, that he believed that there was something
wrong with it from his time playing football.

Speaker 4 (01:02:52):
Yes, he wasn't the NFL.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
He was not in the NFL, although targeting it. Oddly,
he just played high school football. His CTE scans have
now come back and it's accurate. He had some you know,
soft go to me that he justbopulated. He was aware
enough to write that letter.

Speaker 4 (01:03:13):
He was aware enough that he knew something was wrong
with him, and he wrote a letter like he knew
what he was doing was wrong, but he did it anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
I find that fascinating. And to that end, he was,
you know, living in Vegas. He traveled from Vegas to
New York City. He was working sort of in the
kind of like the cyber surveillance side of things at
a place called the Horseshoe Body of Casino Casino there.
So again, this is a smart man who had obviously

(01:03:41):
has a job and is doing things that require your
brain ironically, and he somehow, you know, coughs up his
He decides to get a gun an Ar fifteen from
his supervisor, purchases that good, and then decides to drive
from Las Vegas to New York City, by the way,
across country.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
That's a very long drive if you haven't done it, and.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
You know, takes the lives of for incredible humans in taha,
you and I prior to the show today, we're just
saying like that, the victims so.

Speaker 4 (01:04:14):
Rarely get the voice here.

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Yes, the NFL was the target, and thank god, everybody's
okay there, I mean, thank god, but it just shows
the sliding doors of his intention got side swipes and
he literally got off on the wrong four and then
therefore for innocent humans. Not that anybody in the NFL
had it coming either, sure obviously, but like it's just

(01:04:41):
in a second, it's over for nothing.

Speaker 5 (01:04:44):
And I'd love to just you know, sometimes we get
so deep into these stories and we don't point out
the victims and their lives lost. So I just want
to think their names and just kind of point that out.
The four victims. It was a di de LaRue Islam.
He was an off duty New York City police officer
who was working in a security capassit.

Speaker 4 (01:05:03):
Oh, so he was just making extra money standing guard
though it was a total side hustle.

Speaker 5 (01:05:08):
And probably trying to help a family exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:05:11):
That happens all the time, working secure.

Speaker 5 (01:05:13):
Working horrible. Wesley la Patner, he was a Blackstone executive.
We also had Ailand Uh and Eton and I think
it's pronounced he was also a security guard. And Julia Hyman,
who was an employee at Roodent Management. So our hearts
go out to their family member the tragic loss that

(01:05:33):
they they've all gone through. So yeah, I just wanted
to make sure we pointed out those family members.

Speaker 4 (01:05:40):
This guy's in high school. He's got a developing brain.
We know this, right, you know, and his frontal lobes
are not developed. Right. He's playing a rough sport by
you know, he's playing high school football. He gets moved
around a little bit and he develops his CTE and
then maybe kind of over time while he's still developing, right,

(01:06:00):
he's still forming that that frontal lobe because it's messed
up from the CTE, his wires get crossed. Is that
is that basically what happened. Yeah, that's what happens.

Speaker 6 (01:06:13):
And we're going to the interesting. I'm sorry, go ahead please, no, no, No.
One of the fascinating things about this one of the
symptomologies with CTE is UH Steph, you were talking about,
you know, kind of the planning aspect of this. You know,
it's if you're going to get in a car and
drive from the Vegas area Manhattan. Yeah. But an interesting

(01:06:35):
side to this is that one of the things that
happens with CTE UH patients is that they have impulse
control issues. You know, they rage, they rage, and you know,
this is the fascinating aspect of this is that a
neurologists could certainly frame this better than me. I'm going

(01:06:56):
to make a very poor effort at this. This is
not impulsivity. I wouldn't think or how how long can
you sustain impulsivity? Can you sustain it? On a two
thousand plus all drive this?

Speaker 4 (01:07:13):
I think he would have gone to the raiders here
in Vegas, right, he would have gone to the borders here.

Speaker 6 (01:07:17):
Yeah, And that's which is pretty excellent. That's an excellent point. Body,
you know, why not go you know, why not go
to a representative of the NFL. No, he's going to
downtown man.

Speaker 4 (01:07:28):
That he's planning yes.

Speaker 6 (01:07:29):
Absolutely, and and what look, I've seen a lot of
let me see, how can I frame this politely interesting
things in Manhattan over the course of my life having
gone up there, some scary stuff too, even by my
standards and the but the thought of seeing the guy,
you know, walking down the street with a shouldered AR

(01:07:52):
fifteen is something that even the people in New York
are not used to see, right, and that he walks
in You know a lot of people a pardon and
I take exception of this. There are people that will say, well,
why didn't somebody stop them? Would you stop?

Speaker 4 (01:08:06):
They thought it was vake? I bet you they thought
it was fake. Like if you're a New Yorker.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
I'm a former New Yorker, taha jump in. I could
see somebody walk down the street naked, and you don't
really respond, You don't really react. You assume they're making
a movie or there's something fabulous happening.

Speaker 4 (01:08:22):
It's it's performance art. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
You see somebody in a suit walking into a building
a high rise with an AR fifteen, like the Joker,
and honestly, you assume it's a it's a It's like
a there must be filming a movie, right, and you
also as a New Yorker, you're like mind your business,
you know, until told otherwise.

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
And then you jump right in.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
And every hero New Yorkers, they know how to be
hero is.

Speaker 4 (01:08:46):
More than anyone. You don't.

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
Your brain can't handle what you're seeing. It was broad daylight,
it was.

Speaker 4 (01:08:53):
The middle of the day. You assume it's staged or
for a reason. Yeah, this guy did not look dangerous.
Wow ar fifteen.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
So yeah, and listen again, I think we're going to
do a larger unpack of this. Well, I think that, yeah,
like really looking at the brain and we can talk.

Speaker 4 (01:09:13):
About Aaron Hernandez or something like exact web.

Speaker 6 (01:09:17):
Yeah, there's a of people that have been impacted by
CTE and how many more that before happening, there was
such a thing as a diagnosis of c how many
more people have passed on? Yeah, have passed on in
their lives and no one really knew how to identify it.

(01:09:37):
And this is something that's been going on forever and ever.
And listen, when it comes to football and the technology
they have relative to helmets now, it's you know, years
when dinosaurs were on the Earth and I was wearing
a suspension helmet.

Speaker 4 (01:09:53):
Market and you're a suspension helmet.

Speaker 6 (01:09:56):
Yeah, you know, and you come out that's a cute
at abraded because of the canvas that the thing is
made out of. You know, I've suffered multiple concussions, you know,
throughout throughout my life. Oh yeah, yeah, I've had at
least four I think of, of course, yeah, football and
various other things that I won't get into. But anyway,

(01:10:19):
uh yeah, So you know, you think about that cumulative
event over a period of time, and I'm nothing compared
to these guys who while you're participating in a football game. Okay,
some people have said that that's like being in a
sixty minute long car crash. Wow, just let that sink in,
just for a moment that you're just pounding and pounding

(01:10:41):
away and not everybody gets hitting the head on every
single play, but the fact that you're getting hit in
the head, this is not a normal thing that people
go through. Does the technology that they have now, does
it knock down the chance that you're going to develop
seteam I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
I can imagine that. Honestly, We'll talk about the Aaron
Hernandez thing. Aaron Hernandez for those who are listening, who
don't know who that is as a former NFL star
who has since died and also infamously had this CTE issue,
And maybe we'll have somebody in the brain space who
can talk about frontal lobes and their development and their

(01:11:22):
lack of ability to sort of see consequences. And by
the way, you're listening to true crime tonight, so jump
in eight eight eight three one Crime.

Speaker 4 (01:11:32):
We'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
You could also leave us a talkback, So if you
have something for Joseph or for body come on, we
want to hear all of it. It is Scientific Sunday,
and we're going to be unleashing Joseph Scott Morgan into
the crime lab later in the show to discuss some
new things like body farms. That's a tease if you're

(01:11:54):
not familiar with what that is. You want to be
familiar with what that is body So body farms.

Speaker 4 (01:12:01):
Listen. We've teased body farms a little bit and we've
talked about it, you know, here and there, but whatnot.
But I really this is going to be our unpack
of the of the body farms, right, why they're important
at last, right, and we have just here thank God finally. Right,
and listen, this isn't a place where you know, I'm
being farmed body moving right, It's it's literally a body farm.

(01:12:23):
We wouldn't have it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
We would find you and we would get you back,
but nobody's allowed to farm out.

Speaker 4 (01:12:28):
So these are these are outdoor, typically outdoor. They're forensic
anthropology research facilities, and they allow scientists and researchers to
closely study how the body decomposes in different environments, right
under real world conditions. So they'll sometimes they'll they'll bury
a body, they'll leave it out exposed in the case

(01:12:50):
of like maybe the Travis Decker situation, they'll submerge bodies
and you know, in water, they'll put them in a
car in a trunk, the different different, different things, right,
And they'll they'll analyze the kind of you know, depending
on the area of the country, the kinds of bugs
that you know for you are there the lack of bugs.

(01:13:14):
And if you guys remember Casey Anthony or Kaylee Anthony's case, right,
the little Kaylee Anthony, Casey Anthony was on trial. They
even took air and like bottled up the air around
a decomposing body and analyzed the air around the decomposing
body to see if Kaylee was in Casey's trunk. Do

(01:13:35):
you guys remember this? And they did this at a
body farm. And this is how I came to know
about body farms was from the Kalyan Anthony case. It
was very interesting. Well, the original body farm, I'm just
going to go into what body farms are. And then
the second that you guys, we're gonna have Joseph unleashed. Okay,
so you're unleashed with Joseph. He's already doing a little dance,

(01:13:57):
all right. So the original body farm the Forensic Anthropology
Center at the University of Tennessee. It's in Knoxville, Tennessee,
and it was started by forensic anthropologists doctor William Bass
in nineteen seventy one. I mean, this has been for
so long. People donate their bodies to science to help

(01:14:19):
to help death investigators, you know, figure out what happens
to your body if it's left out in the open.
I mean, this is really important stuff, right because like
like Susanne Morphew, how she was discovered. I bet you,
I bet you we would learn that some of the
things that they found was Susanne morphew, they learned via

(01:14:41):
what happened at a body farm, right, I agree? I
so agree. Right, So this is like, this is not
I mean, we're kind of, you know, having a little
fun and talking about it when not, but this is
like serious, important work that's being done. And I'm the
people that donate their bodies to science, hats off to you,
by the way, if you're considering doing that. My mom
wanted to and I forbade her because I wanted her ashes. Immediately,

(01:15:03):
I was like, no, she was going to donate her
body to the University of Michigan. I was like, is
that a thing? Should we do that? I guess we
should should.

Speaker 5 (01:15:10):
Yeah, maybe we should be thinking about it. And then I
did have a question already immediately, but do they immediately
like if there's a crime, do they mimic that crime
with some of these donated bodies to try to understand it?

Speaker 4 (01:15:21):
Or I mean, I'm sure I don't.

Speaker 5 (01:15:24):
For Joseph's list of things.

Speaker 4 (01:15:26):
We're going to have to wait for crime, I have
to believe a talkback.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
I'm going to call Dring the break and leave a
quick talkback for Joseph.

Speaker 4 (01:15:31):
I mean, this is just this is how you know,
they studied this in a really controlled environment. You know,
individuals who cannot be identified or with no locatable next
I can are also providers to this facility. So like
Jane and John doees can also be used. And this
is not a disrespectful thing. I mean, these people are
revered for doing so, right Like, Yeah, their contributions to

(01:15:56):
society are not going unnoticed on True Crime tonight. I'll
tell you that right now. Once they're in the facility,
the bodies are just left to decompose naturally under different
conditions again under the sun, in the shade, buried, submerged
in an enclosed container of some kind. And right now,
there are seven body farms in the US, and listen,

(01:16:16):
it's important that they are because they're different environments. Right
body decomposing in New Mexico is going to be very
different than a body in Georgia. Humidity is going to
play a piece, you know, the arid desert environment of
New Mexico's going to play a piece. It's all very
important and contributes to the science I want to know.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
So if I donate my body to the body farm,
it will in fact be used for science. Joseph we'll
come back to that. So we're going to be right back.
This is true Crime tonight. We're talking body farms. You know,
we're doing a little crime lab with Joseph Scott Morgan.
We're talking true crime all the time. Stay with us,

(01:17:05):
Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been
talking a lot of true crime for a very long
time now. On Scientific Sunday, we've been knee deep in
the Joseph Scott Morgan Crime Lab. That's our new segment,
that's what we're calling it, Crime Lab dund undone, and
we're talking about body farms, which is a really serious
thing in terms of science and moving investigations forward. You know, Joseph,

(01:17:30):
we've you know, discussed the body farms on so many
cases that we're working on, whether in the past or
even actively. So they do very meaningful things. But it's
one of those things that we've been talking about for
a while internally that's it's hard for us all to
understand it. So we're so grateful that you're breaking it
down so clearly.

Speaker 6 (01:17:51):
Oh My pleasure and body had mentioned in the previous
segment about UT's program that is the oldest it's been
around now for a long long time. And the credit
for that facility not only goes to doctor bab Right,
but also the University of Tennessee that had had the

(01:18:12):
four knowledge, that had had the vision to do this.
What's really interesting about that facility is it's not way
out in the woods. I think a lot of people
think that it is. It's actually in town and it's right. Yeah,
it's right behind the medical Center. And if the wind
is just right, the wind is just right, you know,

(01:18:33):
you can pick up on things. As a matter of fact,
when my son was thirteen years old, we took him
at ut Golf Camp and it's literally across the road
from it sits right on the river there. It runs
through Knoxville. But yet Bill Bass is a giant in
the forensic community. He's professor emeritus now and he he
had He's got a history going back to his army
days where he was working in the graves Registration section

(01:18:56):
of the Army, and those are the people that actually
handle combat desks, and he understood the utility for getting
bodies identified and trying to understand and reclaiming remains. You
have to think about coming back from World War Two,
we had thousands of bodies that were in various states
of decay. And this is in my opinion at least,
this is what starts this little kernel, you know, kind

(01:19:18):
of rolling in his mind and there are these giants
that came after him and that you know, I don't
want to overspiritualize this, but with UT it's kind of
a holy site in the world of forensics because they've
created these little forensic anthropology evangelists that have gone out
now over all of these years and have set up

(01:19:39):
programs at other schools, and not just in the US,
there are schools that are now around the world. Australia's
got a great program down there as well. So there's
a need for this. And one of the reasons that
there is a need is that we cover so many
cases in true crime. People are working these cases is

(01:20:00):
actively out there where people take bodies and they create
what are called clandestine graves, and that means that they're
buried off of the grid, somewhere they're out of sight
and something is going on the entire time that that
body is in the ground. You just think about a
principle called turbation, where the earth you don't see it moving,

(01:20:20):
but it's actually moving surface like this, and the bodies,
particularly uncasketed bodies, are subject to all of the forces
that are subterranean, and not to mention all of the
animal activity that yeah, yeah, and just it's amazing because
you get off into these areas that you don't normally

(01:20:41):
think of. Physics is a big part of this. You
think about hydrology, the force of water that moves through
an area that can change the landscape, and many times
it changes landscapes so much that it will wash away
entire hillsides and you've got like a kind of a
bank that's left behind. And there are any number of

(01:21:02):
stories where people walk up to a bank and there's
a human femur hanging out of the bank that years
and years ago it has.

Speaker 2 (01:21:10):
Because meaning the burial ground had been moved because of
some sort of weather events.

Speaker 6 (01:21:18):
And you have no idea. And here's the problem that
that doctor Bass identified. High Time's always been a problem
in you can't change it, right, it can't, And and
it's always the elements that come along with time always
are going to impact bodies that are left because now

(01:21:39):
bodies are subject in the carbon based form, are all
subject to all of the natural changes that are taking place,
either at a subterranean level or even on surface what
are called surface burials or surface depositions of bodies, where
people will just take remains and leave them out in
the woods. We talked about this with Travis Decker in
the previous and this is a great This is a

(01:22:02):
great segue for that, because you have to try to
think about what are potential suspects going to do with remains.
You guys mentioned something just a second ago that was
always fascinated to me is that they will actually take
a car, open the trunk and they will leave bodies

(01:22:23):
inside of that trunk at the body farm, and they
will allow them, through the normal course of time to
degrade in that environment. And can you imagine you're a
graduate student and your job is to walk out periodically
many times every single day. You're taking bug samples because

(01:22:43):
you want to see the cycle of all of the
insects that are in there. You're trying to see if
there's any kind of animal activity around there, what type
of animal species, what types of plants are growing in
this area? You want to try to and you have
to also factor in meteorological conditions. You have to think
about barometric pressure, relative humidity, heat. Have we had protracted

(01:23:05):
periods of drought? Are we seeing rainstorms that are blowing through?
What happens if a monsoon comes through? All of these
things that impact. There are even cases where they'll take
bodies and encase them in concrete and put the concrete
out there and try to understand, well, you have this
you know, carbon based element that's contained in a block

(01:23:28):
of concrete. What what are what's going? What impact does
the concrete have on the body. Also does the concrete
protect the body? Does it skew your data because now
it's not in the earth, now it's in a solid
block of concrete or cement or you know, how how
do you want to frame it? So you've got all

(01:23:50):
of these different environments, and that's one of the things
that they study.

Speaker 4 (01:23:54):
So the work that they're doing at these body farms
could be utilized, like the data that they find could
be being used literally right this second in la Oh,
it's to help solve reeve us no doubt it is right.

Speaker 6 (01:24:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely that that certainly takes place because again
and I didn't think about this when you said it, Wow, yeah,
her body was found in this Tesla. Okay, so if
if you can take that data and record it. Here's
the thing. Geography is limiting relative to data that comes

(01:24:29):
into any kind of art that you glean from any
kind of body farm, right, Okay, so you have to
factor in l like Okay, So the body farm UT
Knoxville is right on the cusp of the Great Smoky Mountains.
For people who have ever been to Dollywood or Pigeon
Forge or Gatlinburg or any of that area up there,
they're only they're you know, just miles away from that area.

(01:24:51):
Well that that environment is very very distinctive. Okay, sure,
but if you go from UT and you down to
the Maple Center, which is located in Gainesville, Florida, at
the University of Florida, but you're you've entered into an
entirely different environment down there, right, Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:25:11):
We're the one in Michigan.

Speaker 6 (01:25:12):
Totally different. Yeah, yeah, it's completely different.

Speaker 4 (01:25:16):
Now I should mention for everybody, the farthest west that
you can get for a body farm is Colorado. They
don't have one in in like in the environment that
that I live in, and you know, like California, Nevada, Arizona,
in the Southwest. I know, listen, and these are all universities, right, Joseph.
These are all usually studies. There are students, these are

(01:25:38):
these are students that are you know, logging all these details.
We really need the universities on the west coast to
get it together and get a body farm regions.

Speaker 6 (01:25:47):
Yeah, and they're really fantastic universities all over the place
that that are doing great research in forensic anthropology. And
it's it's certainly a need and it's something that's practical,
you know, it's not some kind of a theory thing
because there is actually form and function here. There's applications
out in the field. And I love what you said
earlier about could they take a case potentially and duplicated Well, yeah,

(01:26:12):
I suppose you could the scenario. But the one thing
if you're doing this in let's just say you're doing
this at the body form in Knoxvile and you're taking
a case from I don't know Reno, all right, You're
not going to be able to duplicate Reno in Knoxyle.
You're just not going to be able to do it.
So now you have the same case that approximates that
geographic region that has the same flora, the same fauna,

(01:26:35):
the same meteorological you know, impacts that you have in
that environment. Yeah, you could. You might could approximate that data,
and that's one of the things that they're trying to do.
But you know, you got to start somewhere, okay. And
there are many people that are over the years that
have found this just absolutely they're averse to it. As

(01:26:57):
a matter of fact. You know, I have friends that
studied up there and did research and that at the
body farm. I've got one of my really good friends
that finished his PhD up there and and in fiscal
anthropology was focus in forensics, and you know, he taught.
He talked to me about the rigor of going through this,
and he said, one of the interesting things that happens
is that periodically you'll have people that will show up

(01:27:20):
at the body farm and they'll have signs protesting because
they're offended by it. So, you know, at my university
at jack State, I've had people that have come up
to me, and I'm not a fends of anthropology to say,
are we going to get a body farm here? It's like, no, no,
we're not doing that. Now. I do have a gross
lab for the first time this year. So in my
in my lab at jack State, I actually have an

(01:27:43):
anatomy lab where we started doing dissections and I've got
undergraduate students that are participating in this and so's.

Speaker 2 (01:27:52):
Two of which passed out. Three of them passed out
on Friday when he was Yeah, yeah, though, I Joseph
and I were talking on Friday and he was like
doing his like lecture and they were cutting for the
first time and three students passed as I would have
been for sure one.

Speaker 5 (01:28:09):
Of that you.

Speaker 4 (01:28:13):
And I I.

Speaker 6 (01:28:14):
Got, I actually got I got kind of woozy Tom
and that was that was probably seven thousand bodies ago,
so literally probably normal. Yeah, it is a normal reaction.

Speaker 4 (01:28:25):
What do you do when your whole class is passing out?

Speaker 6 (01:28:28):
But you know when when you're doing and it's at
another level when you're talking about human decay, because it's
not just an idea of doing a pro section on
a body, it's it's a matter of doing, uh, doing
it under horrible circumstances where you're outdoors and you're witnessing
the true, the true impact of nature on human remains.

(01:28:54):
And you have to be specifically focused in this field
because there's so many little tiny detail that can be missed.
So I would equate anybody that works in this field
that probably would have the same mindset I think as
somebody that would do that would be a watchmaker, because
you know, you have to pay such close attention to every.

Speaker 4 (01:29:16):
Little what a good Yeah, it's so true.

Speaker 6 (01:29:19):
Yeah, and you have to really dig science, man, you
have to be completely I could get committed into this.

Speaker 4 (01:29:25):
It'd be great.

Speaker 2 (01:29:26):
We exhumed a body that we were Joseph and I
were both working on a case where we exhumed a
body after many many years of burial, and it's first
glance and second glance, and Joseph's glands said a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:29:40):
My takeaway as a layman was.

Speaker 2 (01:29:43):
How extraordinary that a body can be buried in a
casket and then exhumed many years later, removed from said casket,
and then examined properly and real details are to happen
from that. Joseph, if I don't know what other high
note to end it on other than exhumation, I guess

(01:30:05):
we'll have to hit the crime lab also next week.
And honestly, Joseph, having you here if you again, if
you haven't listened to his podcast Body Bags, Please do.
I sar a radio app you can download it for free.
Also leave us a talk back on that same app
while you're at it, and again tomorrow. We have a
full week of hot headlines that are hitting the news

(01:30:28):
real time. Lots of trials happening this week, so we
will be following them closely.

Speaker 4 (01:30:35):
And Body I know you look like you have one
last thing to say. No, I just was going to say, listen,
we have our true crime and chill and right, you're
choosing that you're choosing to doc this right and listen
to your adolescence. And I know it's not a documentary,
I know, but listen, there's We've been talking a lot
about in Cells lately and whatnot, and I think this

(01:30:55):
would be a really important and illuminating show for us
all to time, watching them packed together. Yeah, I think.

Speaker 5 (01:31:04):
I have to say I've already seen it, but.

Speaker 4 (01:31:06):
I haven't, but I've heard it's phenomenal.

Speaker 2 (01:31:08):
Oh, you must watch going to And we talk about
it a lot in the In Cells podcast just premiered
as well, and we hope you'll also download that on
the iHeartRadio app.

Speaker 4 (01:31:19):
But it is a real deep Dive.

Speaker 5 (01:31:21):
It's a good one and just a reminder its adolescence
on Netflix. So everyone tune and watch that one, and
we're going to talk about it, but not this Wednesday.
We're going to give it. We're going to do it
this Wednesday.

Speaker 4 (01:31:32):
Yeah, let's take a week off, Let's take a week off. Yeah,
I think, take a week off and do it next.

Speaker 6 (01:31:36):
But we are going to have crime Lab again.

Speaker 4 (01:31:38):
Yes we are, Yes, we are with crime Lab. Is
every every Sunday this time next week, Joseph, sure, aggress
assured and listen, we get to like, is it a
start of the week or the end of the week.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:31:54):
Sundays are a little bit of an end of a
week for me and my heart and head. So I'm
so excited to get to be here with you guys
at the end of the weekend. And you know, rather
than having those oh my goodness, the gloomy mondays, I
get ahead with you guys. So thank you everybody for listening. Please,
we will be back tomorrow, head.

Speaker 4 (01:32:15):
On on Monday.

Speaker 2 (01:32:17):
Lots to discuss in the headlines, which will of course
be getting to Joseph. Thank you for being with us tonight.
Boddy I'm crazy for you and Courtney. We will see
you tomorrow. If you're listening, this is true crime tonight.
Please be safe, everybody. We will be here tomorrow.

Speaker 4 (01:32:32):
Good Night, Matt