D4vd Named a Suspect & New Twists in the Brian Walshe Murder Trial

Trial attorney Jarrett Ferentino joins us to break down the escalating mystery surrounding 9-year-old Melodee Buzzard. We also cover Brian Walshe's shocking guilty pleas, the fight over what the jury will hear, and how a disgraced investigator could shift the entire trial. Tune in for all the details.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Wednesday, November nineteenth, and we
have a stacked night of headlines.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Boy do we ever?

Speaker 2 (00:30):
By the way, everybody buckle up because President Trump has
signed the bill that will officially get the Epstein files released.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
The clock has started.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
He has thirty days and the DOJ is on board
to hopefully set all those names and files and gigabytes free.
So high five to the room. Everybody's feeling encouraged and excited. Also,
pop star singer David Now, this news is everywhere and
it seems as though he is going to be an

(01:02):
actual suspect in this and it's upsetting and are there
other people involved? It seems as though the walls are
closing in on all things David, So so much to
unpack there. Brian Walsh, the accused wife killer, is confessing
to some of it, not all of it, but some

(01:23):
of it. So when we have to break that down
to what does that mean? How can you confess to
dismembering a body and not confess to the actual murder
of So here we go on that, and also it's
true crime and chill everybody. So hopefully you have watched
the Netflix documentary about Eileen. She is the Queen of

(01:47):
the serial killers and it's super disturbing but a case
that we definitely have to unpack.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
But we've had a lot of legal.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Questions and thankfully it is a Wednesday because we have
the prosecutor himself. The prosecutor, Jarrett Farentino, is in the
house with us tonight and we have them for a
couple of what do we call this acts, We have
them for a couple of egments segments exactly, and he's
going to answer all of our legal questions and we've

(02:15):
been stacking them up all the way time, saving them up.
We put this in a little special column called the Prosecutor.
So welcome everybody. I'm Stephanie Leidecker. We hope you had
a beautiful day. I'm here of course with my True
Crime girls. Body move in Courtney Armstrong. We have Tahar,
our producer, and of course Sam and Adam tending all

(02:38):
the phones and doing all that fancy stuff in the
control room. And of course we have Jarrett Farantino with.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
US live and Act one.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Come on, Jarrett, are you ready to rumble?

Speaker 4 (02:49):
Or what?

Speaker 5 (02:50):
Another quiet true time night right in America?

Speaker 3 (02:54):
Unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
I mean, the day starts one way and BOYD, does
it end another. So I will just go on record
and saying I feel really excited by the speed with
which things have passed through the Congress into the Senate,
and now President Trump has signed the bill, and I
feel confident that we will get some real answers and
all things epstein period the end. And let's sa add

(03:18):
an exclamation point.

Speaker 6 (03:21):
I want a question mark?

Speaker 3 (03:22):
How about that?

Speaker 6 (03:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (03:27):
No, wait, so a question mark with a side of
a side eye.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
Okay, understood, understood. Everybody's nodding in approval on that.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
So I again, I'll remain the last man standing on
this one.

Speaker 6 (03:38):
I love the optimism.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
I listen, We're listen, slow and steady, slow and steady.
I have confidence. So, Boddy David, where should we begin
with this?

Speaker 4 (03:47):
Well, let's just kind of summarize what happened. A police
source with LAPD has said that singer David is now
being considered a suspect in the death of fourteen year
old Celestie Hernandez as investigators start treating.

Speaker 6 (04:02):
This case as a homicide.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
Finally, Celestivus Hernandez, as we know, was found deceased in
the trunk or fronk of David's abandon tesla on September eighth,
a day.

Speaker 6 (04:15):
After what would have been her fifteenth birthday.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
It's being reported fifteen year old Celestias Hernandez, but she
was fourteen years old when she passed, so let's let's
clear that up.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
She was fourteen years old.

Speaker 4 (04:27):
Her death is still the manner of death is still
listed as deferred. Although the singer has not been charged officially,
police are investigating his potential connection to the case, while
conflicting accounts emerge about his cooperation. And the reason that
we're kind of bringing this up today is because we
have Jarrett here, right, We have Jarrett here, and we
were saving some of the We had some really good

(04:49):
talkback sisterday asking about this case, and there were a
couple of things that we Jarrett weren't really one d
percent confident in answering, because you know, we're not you know,
the prosecutors like you. You know, so we thought, oh, let's
ask Jared. So we just had a couple questions from
some of our listeners if that was.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
Okay with you, sure, talcol.

Speaker 4 (05:08):
Yeah, so one of them was, and this was, you know,
a pretty I had my own answer.

Speaker 6 (05:14):
But let's see what you say.

Speaker 4 (05:15):
If David is a murder suspect, why hasn't he been
arrested or taken into custody.

Speaker 5 (05:22):
That's a really common question when somebody becomes a suspect
as opposed to becoming a defendant.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
Right.

Speaker 5 (05:29):
One is a legal act, the other is an investigative act.
So to call someone a suspect, you don't need to
go into a courtroom and push forth probable cause or
any charges or meet any standard. You just throw it
out there and you say this person. It goes from person,

(05:50):
here's the list you don't want to be on your
person of interest. Then you become a suspect, and eventually
you become a defendant. Okay, it appears it's heading that way.
It's it's it's momentous in this investigation. Because this is
a source within the LAPD. They've been pretty hush on this,
but sometimes investigative agencies plant this information. They get it

(06:15):
out there to get a tactical advantage to put pressure
on an individual like David or people in his inner circle.
They do it to build probable cause they want people talking,
they want people nervous, they want suspect tracked and how
much you want to bu biggie at biggies to prevent
flight if they if David is planning on going underground

(06:39):
now people at bus stations and airports and that they
know this guy's really being looked at. So again, those
are the reasons behind calling some of the suspect.

Speaker 4 (06:50):
It's so I'm so glad you said that when you
were talking about this, the pressure and whatnot, because the
next question that a listener could the LAPD source revealing
this update to the me be a strategic leak to
get others who may have been involved in the case talking.

Speaker 5 (07:07):
Yeah, I think definitely. Because once people feel like the
LATD is you know this no information, they think they're
a step ahead of investigating. Once this sentiment comes out,
people who don't have as much to worry about like David,
may start to get nervous and start to talk or.

Speaker 4 (07:28):
Making phone calls, right emails, text messages. You know things
that the police can eventually go, oh, look at that.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Right, you're literally dropping a bomb in his circle and
then seeing who reacts. Right, So it's every one of
the buddies, you know, I'm paraphrasing here. We don't know
who's been identified in his circle, but let's just assert
the fact that there's probably more than.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
One person, as it's been at least reported on.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
So they are basically saying it's a homicide, which is
the first time they're really saying that degree.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
That's pretty major.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
You had said it last night, Body that it's only
been two months since this happened, or since at least
we've been talking about it, and for some reason, it
seems like one hundred months.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
I mean, it seems like a really long.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Time that we haven't had a person of interest or
something hitting the press in a more meaningful way. And
that seems to me like strategy that the LAPD we're
keeping it very very close, which must mean they know
that there's something in the mix here and they have
maybe some probable cause, I'm assuming, and that by dropping
this to the media, they can now see who calls who,

(08:37):
in which one of the friends is freaking out and
maybe one of them will turn on the other and
people start.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
Chatting and talking.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
Right, So I think we're going to have an arrest
within days.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Heart I think I said, I think you said by
the weekend. I do.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
I think even by the weekend. Now I'm saying that
on a Wednesday. So maybe that was an overshot, but
maybe not. I don't think you plan that if you
don't think there's something actionable right behind it, Because again,
David's a very popular guy, he's a successful artist. I
don't think you throw that out there if you're not
ready to catch the kill. And that would also have

(09:13):
some potential backlash. And I think everyone's been pretty kind
to David the pop star. It's kind of been out
of the news. I've actually been shocked that it wasn't
breaking news every single day. How do we find answers
for Celeste? She was fourteen years old at the bare minimum.
If there in fact had a inappropriate relationship, that was

(09:35):
one problem. But now they're saying she was in fact dismembered,
and this wasn't just a basic composition. You know, we
were wondering and we talked about this with Joseph Scott Morgan.
Perhaps the fact that we haven't heard more is because
her body was in such a state of decomposition. I
was paraphrasing and desition. Yeah that maybe it wasn't just member,

(10:00):
but now what they looking like it was.

Speaker 4 (10:02):
They would be able to see tool marks from that
and whatnot. So it's very specific language though that they used.

Speaker 5 (10:10):
So of the other information body too. As they're saying
she was dismembered by a group. If you saw that
being reported, which means someone's talking exact think of Robert Durst.
You can dismember a body on your own, and he
was a little guy.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
He was an older guy too. He was like a
little old guy.

Speaker 5 (10:29):
So somebody is talking, Why doy know a group was
part of that process? There's only one way you could
definitively conclude that.

Speaker 7 (10:38):
Man, this information just keeps coming out, and we'll obviously
keep everyone abreast as it continues.

Speaker 3 (10:44):
This is true crime tonight. You're listening to Courtney Armstrong.

Speaker 7 (10:48):
I'm here luckily as always with Body Move and Stephanie Leidecker.
And on this Wednesday, we are joined by Prosecutor Jarrett Farrantino.
If you have questions for him, and in the legal realm,
give us a call eighty eight three one crime. We
were just talking about Celeste Reevas Hernandez, whose body was

(11:10):
found in the trunk of the pop star David. And
now I think we're going to turn our attention to
a different story. Body, Can you give us the update
on Melody Buzzard and our mother?

Speaker 4 (11:22):
Yes, this Melody Buzzard case. I just where's Melody? Where
where is Melody? Where's Melody? So investigators are continuing to
search for a missing nine year old Melody Buzzard as
her mother, Ashley was in court today facing an unrelated
false imprisonment charge. Melody Buzzard again, She's nine years old.
She disappeared during an October road trip with her mother,

(11:43):
who later returned alone and has not been cooperating with
the police to explain her child's whereabouts. The FBI and
the local Sheriff's office are investigating this disappearance, and Ashley
Buzzard is simultaneously facing a separate felony case for this
fall imprisonment. Remember this Tyler, I think his name is
Tyler person who's maybe an acquaintance of her, some kind

(12:06):
of paralegal went to her house to see if he
could offer her assistance in the case of her missing daughter,
and apparently Ashley kind of started talking and said something
that she would you know later, Regret pulled out a
box cutter of some kind and basically helped him hostage
and he called the cops. And this is when she
got arrested and she was released with a GPS monitor

(12:31):
and she was in court today.

Speaker 6 (12:34):
Melody again.

Speaker 4 (12:35):
She was reported missing October fourteenth, after school officials noticed
her prolonged absence. Investigators are saying that Ashley has been
uncooperative and has not provide any explanation.

Speaker 3 (12:45):
For her daughter's whereabouts.

Speaker 4 (12:48):
I still kind of think mom thinks that, you know,
Melody might be in danger or something, and has you know,
taken her to somebody's house or I don't know. I
just this whole thing is kind of kind of crazy.
But I know that we have a talkback for Jarrett.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
Is that right? Can we play that talkback?

Speaker 8 (13:07):
Yes, we do. We have one about that case. So
let's get that one going.

Speaker 9 (13:10):
Okay, Hey, y'all step from Bama. So I have a
question about the Melody Buzzard case. The mom was wearing
a wig, and they said that she was known to
wear wigs. I'm wondering if her wearing a wig was
an indication that she was about to do something deceptive,
like it was an indication that she's about to do

(13:31):
something she knows she shouldn't do. And if they were
to go back and look at times where she wore wigs,
would they find something curious?

Speaker 4 (13:40):
So, yeah, Mom was known to wear wigs. In fact,
she wore a wig in court today, the same one
that she was wearing at the car rental center.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
You did a full analysis on her wigs, you really did.
There's an Excel document that body has put together on
her wigs, honestly, which is a big piece of this,
because they sometimes a disguise. Sometimes it's just a daily
thing that you put a wig on. Right, Yeah, she
had not reality.

Speaker 4 (14:07):
But see the thing is though, is in that in
that in this case at the car rental facility, it
looks like the little girl is wearing a wig exactly
and that has beautiful, big chilli hair.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
She di hiding that.

Speaker 4 (14:21):
And then the other big issue in this is not
so much Mom's wigs. I think we can kind of
maybe put that on the shelf fairhaps put that aside.
Put that aside, for a moment. But you know, the
little girl looked like she was wearing a wig, and
mom is changing the license plates, right, Jared. In your experience,
you've prosecuted hundreds of cases, maybe thousands, I'm not sure,

(14:41):
but hundreds of cases. Is this kind of behavior something
that you've experienced before, like this changing of license plates
and possible disguises, and is this something.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
You're familiar with?

Speaker 5 (14:51):
Yes, So look at the wigs alone. I agree with you.
If it's something she would regularly do, doesn't say much,
but the changing of license plates and the wigs on
Melody are indicative of hiding identity. They're trying to keep
her face off camera, and the changing of the rental
car license plate is avoiding license plate readers. She knows

(15:14):
someone that tracking her whereabouts and movement. That's how you
frustrate that process. So I would argue one percent the
whigs are disguise at this point and change of license
plates is hiding out in its consciousness of guilt and flight.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
That is a firm statement.

Speaker 7 (15:33):
We'll stick around because Prosecutor Jarrett Farentino will be with
us and he is going to help us break down
the latest in the Brian Walsh murder trial, as well
as potential legal roadblocks or questions for the Epstein survivors,
and also later where is Rebecca Park Keep it here.

Speaker 3 (15:51):
At your Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here of course,
with Courtney Armstrong and body Move in and listen. It
is true crime and chill night. So hopefully you've watched
your documentary on Netflix, because we're going to be talking
about it later in the hour. But we're also answering
all of your legal questions. We have the prosecutor, Jarrett

(16:28):
Farantino is here himself and by the way, creating quite
the swell. So we have had quite a few questions
for you, Jarrett, and there are a lot of legal
things up in the air right now, so we are
going to jam through as many as humanly possible. And
I know what is borrowed time. So where should we
go next, Courtney?

Speaker 7 (16:48):
Oh, okay, Brian Walsh, and we do have a tonage
of questions for you, Jarrett, because this is actually a
confusing one.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
To get everyone up to speed.

Speaker 7 (16:57):
Jury selection is continuing for the trial of the Massachusetts
man Brian Walsh. So Walsh shockingly pled guilty to moving
his dead wife's body. He also pled guilty to lying
to police about it. However, he still maintains his innocence

(17:18):
for a first degree murder of his wife, Anna.

Speaker 3 (17:21):
Walsh, which he is also accused of. And Anna Walsh
she disappeared.

Speaker 7 (17:27):
It was after New Year's Eve twenty twenty three, and
what investigators allege is that Walsh killed her, dismembered her,
and disposed of her remains. Her body never has been found.
But the prosecution, for my money, seems to have a
pretty strong case. They've got digital searches, surveillance footage, they

(17:47):
have recovered items as part of their case. So that's
the case, and those are what he has pled to,
which is insane. So what we wanted to know, I mean,
first of all, have you ever heard of such a
thing of saying, yes, I disposed of a body.

Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yes I lied to about it, but I did. I
don't know how they died.

Speaker 5 (18:12):
Yeah, but not in the form of yet. I've seen
it happen in cases. For example, somebody can say I
was involved in the interment of a body. I wasn't
involved in the murder. You got me on that. I
have not seen somebody charge you with the murder plead
guilty to the dismemberment and disposal on the eve or
during jury selection of your trial. Practically, I don't know.

(18:36):
I know what they're thinking. It ain't gonna work.

Speaker 6 (18:38):
Okay, tell me what tell me you said you know
what they're thinking. What are they thinking?

Speaker 5 (18:44):
I didn't agree. Okay, they didn't offer him anything of
short of murder. So my defensor attorneys are saying, we
can go to the jury and say we fell on
the sword. Here we acknowledge he hacked her body up,
he lied to the investigators, he dumped her in dumpsters,
but he didn't kill her, and that, you know, obviously

(19:04):
it saves him imprisonment versus ears. So again it's an
inconvenient or it's a convenient defense. Really.

Speaker 4 (19:16):
So I follow a lot of people on law to
you know, you're one of them that I follow on YouTube.
And I was watching the jury selection yesterday on a
channel of a Massachusetts lawyer who I followed for Karen Reid,
and she said, and I was like, I have forgot
to ask Jared this. She said, Oh, well, he just

(19:37):
pled guilty to these two lesser charges. So now the
jury is not going to hear that he pled He
pled to that, and I was like, what, Yeah, So
that's when I thought all the evidence surrounding the like
they found like a rug that you know, Anna was
rolled up in and a saw in a dumpster near
his mom's house, they're not going to hear that. And

(19:58):
I was like, are you kidding me?

Speaker 3 (20:01):
What do you mean? So that's not true, right.

Speaker 5 (20:04):
No, they're going to hear the evidence. They may not
know he pled guilty to that crime.

Speaker 10 (20:09):
They do.

Speaker 5 (20:10):
But here's the thing, I'm thinking, more likely now that
Walsh may take the stand because he's admitting to this.
Now in the likelihood it just became more likely. I
don't know that he's going to so he can't take
a position that he did not dismember her body or anything.
Then obviously the fleet can come in, But all of
the evidence surrounding her dismemberment and her body being disposed

(20:35):
of comes in because it's part of the crime. It's
part of the police So you do not forego the
presentation of bad evidence by strategically pleading guilty to a
lesser charge.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
That's fascinating then, So what could possibly be the theory
here that he confesses to the lesser charges, which are
the results of the main charge. You can't dismember a
body without having an understanding of what happened to the
body in the first place.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
Well, he could.

Speaker 4 (21:04):
Say, he could say, I came home and I found
her dead, like, so I decided to remember her, right
because I'm a nut job.

Speaker 6 (21:12):
Look, I just got hospital Stephanie.

Speaker 5 (21:15):
Are you trying to apply logic to an ill logical situation? Right?

Speaker 2 (21:19):
It appears so, sir, tell it to the judge because
that yeah, Like, but who's advising him? He obviously has
a lawyer that's obviously a little bit rogue as well.
Does that have any real added benefit if you're, you know,
up against a murder charge and you have to do it.

Speaker 3 (21:40):
I don't get that.

Speaker 5 (21:40):
And well, body and what body asks is and the
comment that that attorney made day more, the jury may
not hear he pled. I don't think he's going to
hide that fact. I think he's going to advertise that fact.
And that's what his lawyers. That's the play here. It's like,
that's that's the wrong we do. That's the strategy look,
how honest we are, right, it's not going to rights being.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
You cannot get like you know, in trouble for dismembering
a car if you had no part of the theft.
I guess that's the theory here, right, But we're not
talking about a car, We're talking about a human. And
by the way, it's everywhere. So as much as you
think the local area where they're selecting a jury is,
they're not sequestered. You're going to see this information. So

(22:27):
I would imagine it would be very badly played to
let this information leak out to the media into the
public while a trial is happening, that he's confessing to dismemberment.
It seems to me like game.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
Over, right.

Speaker 5 (22:40):
I don't think he's going to hide it. Do you
ever hear the expression like who would you call if
you needed to dispose of a body?

Speaker 10 (22:45):
Like?

Speaker 5 (22:46):
What friend do you call? Okay? So yeah, that is
the situation where somebody comes into a situation where there
was a murder. That's not the situation with Brian Walsh.
This is his wife right right, and who he lied
about and kicked off search in Washington, DC that she
didn't know where she was. Now he's saying, well, I
didn't know where she was. I hacked her up. I mean,

(23:07):
he's at And let me tell you little lies when
the loved one is hurt or missing. Look at Murdall,
look at all these people. These little lies are what
nail you in the end.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Great comparison, by the way, Yeah, what a sicko.

Speaker 7 (23:23):
So we have a couple of other legal questions regarding
the Brian Walsh case.

Speaker 3 (23:28):
Okay, So the.

Speaker 7 (23:30):
Defense attorney has asked the judge to bar testimony that
describes the victim Anna as a quote loving mother or
dedicated employee. And what the argument is is that the
statements would be inflammatory or prejudicial. Another thing the defense
is objecting to is testimony relating to the fact that

(23:53):
people think Anna would never abandon her children. So what
the judge says ed was that the defense may object
during the trial, but she's likely to allow the general
observations about her interactions. What is the precedent of not
being able to hear about a victim?

Speaker 3 (24:14):
That seems very strange to me.

Speaker 5 (24:17):
That's coming in. So what you said, Courtney, were two
things they're saying. It's prejudicial and inflammatory. It's prejudicial. But
all evidence that we put on in a prosecution that
would be prejudicial to your case. It's not inflammatory, though,
it's not inflammatory to the extent that it's so beyond

(24:37):
the pale that a jury can't understand, you know, saying
nice things about a victim happens in every case. You
can't go you cannot go beyond you know, is it
wrong to say she was a loving mother? No, I
mean it's a truthful statement and the jury needs to
know it. They also don't necessarily conclude from the fact
that she was a loving mother that Brian Walls killed her.

Speaker 7 (24:59):
God, And so is this is this strategy common? Like
does do a lot of defense attorneys try it just
to see a fiddlestick?

Speaker 11 (25:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (25:09):
I think they. I've had defense attorneys asked not to
use the word victim in cases because I haven't established
that this person was a victim of anything. So that's
the kind of games that get played. And look, they're
going to protect that. They're trying to protect their client
from anything that's going to move the needle. Anything that
they say is irrelevant to the case. So that's what

(25:31):
they're going to do. And it's just it's so common
in cases there's no case a lot that's going to
support preventing saying that.

Speaker 4 (25:39):
Right, This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we're
talked to krim all the time. Imbody moving on here
with Stephanielei Decker and Courtney Armstrong, and we are so
lucky enough to be joined by Prosecutor Jarrett Farantino, who's
here to answer all of our pesky legal questions that
we constantly have for him. He's probably so tired of us,
but he's so kind to be here. And we're talking

(25:59):
about the Brian Walsh case and he just plaged guilty
to a couple lesser charges. One was the basically the
dismemberment of his wife's body and lying to police, and
we're asking him about the strategy about that. But there's
another like wrinkle in this case, right, and that wrinkle
is Michael Proctor. Can we talk about that, Courtney?

Speaker 3 (26:21):
Yes.

Speaker 7 (26:22):
So Michael Proctor, his name may ring a bell because
he's the former state police trooper. He's the guy who
led the investigation both into what we're talking about victim
Anna Walsh's murder, but also was the guy who was
fired due to his crazy, misogynistic conduct in the Karen
Reid case, So Karen read as we remember her, and

(26:47):
the first child was a hung jury, and then in
the second one, Karen walked well Proctor, who again is
no longer a state trooper. There are nineteen different cases
that he investigated that have all been granted access to
data from Proctor's electronic devices, and it's so they can

(27:10):
search for evidence of possible biases. Right now, Walsh's lawyers
haven't indicated what material from his device they'll seek, if any,
to introduce, but the defense attorney has listed Proctor as
a potential witness.

Speaker 3 (27:26):
So that's what's going on.

Speaker 7 (27:28):
So jareded, how significant can having an unreliable investigator?

Speaker 3 (27:35):
How can that impact a case? Imagine this was your case, Jared,
would you be panicking.

Speaker 5 (27:40):
Right now it's happened. I'd be panicking if, first of all,
I can't believe we're talking about Michael Procter anyway. Yes, obviously,
the credibility of your investigators is key. That's the heart
of your case. If the jury doesn't like or believe
your investigators, you got a mountain to climb. Okay, But

(28:05):
the question becomes now in the Karen Reid case, Michael
Proctor was the major affient, major investigator. What is his
role in the Brian Walston He is a supporting investigator.
So in my opinion, the defense can attack the credibility
and integrity of the investigation by going after Proctor. He's

(28:25):
a distraction. He could put the prosecution on their heels.
But this ain't Karen Reid.

Speaker 3 (28:32):
Okay, that's true.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
And by the way, he had a personal relationship to
he did you know, the victim, Brian O'Keeffe, and of
course to Karen Reid herself, and was at the house
where this crime actually occurred outside. So that was a
unique set of circumstances which made it even more troubling
for Michael Proctor that he wasn't recused from that case

(28:53):
in the first place. I would imagine and Jerret correct
me if I'm wrong in other cases that are not
so aligned in his personal life. Certainly, if he's a
support player, there could be an argument that he was
just doing his job and he was off the rails
because of his connection to the Karen Reid case. I

(29:13):
would assume Courtney's giving me sidey. She's saying no, no,
I'm just listening. It's complicated.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
I'm listening to you.

Speaker 5 (29:22):
I think, well, you're right, Stephanie. Here's the thing. You
in the Karen Reid case, you had to believe Michael
Proctor that there wasn't this setup, there wasn't this deep
blue operation going on to Frank Karen Read here. If
Proctor is a minor player, much of what he's investigated
and meeted out is buttressed by other evidence, digital evidence,

(29:47):
you know, the search is on Walsh's kids, iPad, things
of that nature. Where you're saying, how much of a belief
of faith do you have to take with Michael Proctor
at this point, She's not the key here, and the
defense is only trying to distract you because their guy's guilty, you.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Know, and it was big news, you know, the Karen
Reid case was such a big story and such big news.
Everybody that was associated with it got kicked out of
the club.

Speaker 12 (30:11):
So yeah, interesting, it's almost like a the Karen readcase
was so it was so toxic, it was so toxic. Yeah,
it just the hazard ed the hazardous waste from that
you know, toxic case just spilled over to everyone and
that was involved with it, right, Like.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Does it make Brian Walsh a savior and a prince.
You know, based on what we are hearing now. The
idea that this clown could show up and say he
dismembered his wife but has no idea what happened past that,
and lied about it to law enforcement and now is
changing his tune as his trial is gearing up is
nothing short of sickening.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
Totally.

Speaker 7 (30:49):
I had one and we only have one brief minute left.
But just back to the fact that he, you know,
pled guilty to the dismemberment and lying. There was no
plea deal because the prosecutors refuse to negotiate unless he
also pled to murder. Real quick, do you think that
the defense hoped that prosecution would plea.

Speaker 5 (31:10):
No, this was a tactic. They knew, they knew he
wasn't They weren't going to grant that plea just to
the minor charges.

Speaker 3 (31:16):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (31:17):
Well, Jarrett, thank you so much for joining us. We
love having you with us. You can find more of
Jarrett Instagram at Jarrett Farentino and pre order his upcoming
book on Amazon. It's called Mothers, Murders and Motivation. Mmmmm
for sure.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
And man, oh man, oh man, how great is Jarrett
Farantino's the best. We need to walk on music or
some sort of like music cue for him as well.

Speaker 4 (31:44):
It needs to be kind of intimidating, because listen, he's
very easy to talk to you, but I'm very intimidated.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
Did we need like a gavel, like what is that
sound or something that we need that's like dun dun.

Speaker 3 (31:54):
Dumb dabble you want to hear it? Yes? Yes, Oh,
court is.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Very cool, though it's not Courtney in session or look, Courtney,
you could be in session.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
You would be a good judge. Session you would be
a good judge. Both would be good judges.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
By the way, I think, as I'm replaying the last
conversation we just had, I think I just said that
Brian Michael Proctor was at the crime scene when Karen
Reid was accused of hitting her boyfriend with her car,
which she was later found not guilty of. He was

(32:34):
not present there. Brian Higgins was present there. Did I
say that, well, so Brian Proctor. Michael Proctor was not there. Rather,
but he was the lead investigator and they didn't work
together and there was obvious connections, but he was not
present at the Albert's house.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
Is that accurate. It's to make sure that is.

Speaker 7 (32:53):
And I also had him because otherwise I would have
said something.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
I was also thinking of Brian Higgins. That whole party
was a weird Karen read case.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
Yeah, so much to be unpacked to that it feels
like there's a quiet sifter.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah, yeah, we should talk about that.

Speaker 10 (33:11):
Well.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
She also has faced so much financial burden. I mean
imagine being like, you can't work when you've been on
trial twice in a row, back to back.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
All the legal fees, there's a civil suit, yeah, I.

Speaker 7 (33:25):
Mean she can't go back to being a normal you know,
professor of finance or whatever.

Speaker 3 (33:31):
Specifically, she was so.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Good luck getting that money. We look at it now too.
Not to digress, I know, we have a lot to
get to. But in the OJ Simpson case, for example,
victim and the Goldman's, you know, the family has you know,
filed their civil suit.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
How many years has this been?

Speaker 2 (33:49):
And yes, they've been awarded a large lump sum, not
that anything can take their beautiful sun back.

Speaker 3 (33:56):
But you know where do you get that from? Right?

Speaker 2 (33:58):
It's from the OJ estate, But you know.

Speaker 4 (34:02):
Part of it is also the triucational Yeah, yeah, crazy,
so much to kiss you where should.

Speaker 11 (34:09):
We go next?

Speaker 3 (34:12):
Yeah, so.

Speaker 7 (34:14):
Listen, it seems like justice is coming fast and furiously,
just as you had suggested, Hopton wish for and manifested
Stephanie Laideker, because President Trump indeed has officially signed the
Epstein Files Bill.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
So this orders the.

Speaker 7 (34:31):
Department, the Justice Department, to release all the federal records
tied to Jeffrey Ebstein. And this of course comes after
the really massive bipartisan push. It was four hundred twenty
seven to one in the House and also had the
nanimous unanimous approval of the Senate.

Speaker 3 (34:52):
So in this moment, the Department of.

Speaker 7 (34:55):
Justice has about thirty days to begin releasing the more
than three one hundred gigabytes of evidence and it's grand
jury transcripts, search warrants, photos, videos, thousands of documents from
Epstein's estate, and the survivors are calling this a major
step forward to the unbelievably overdue transparency.

Speaker 3 (35:19):
However, just one.

Speaker 7 (35:21):
However, questions do remain about how much will be redacted.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
So I was reading and again, there's two sides to
this coin, right, So on the one hand, yes, it
has felt really swift. It's been an extraordinary twenty four
hours of unity, transparency, accountability, teamwork as a country, men, women,
both sides of the aisle, all rallying together for a

(35:46):
shared a shared wish for justice. Right, So I think
that's so beautiful and should not get lost period. The
other side to that is, yes, Pambondy, of course we
know last Saturday opened an investigation to look into several
Democrats Bill Clinton specifically, and as a result that investigation

(36:09):
would be open air quotes, and therefore that could hinder
some of these documents being actually shared or not heavily
redacted and by redacted, that's like everything's blacked out. So
you know this happens a lot. We deal with redacted
information pretty much every day. Certain details that are either
too gruesome or could affect another investigation get redacted by

(36:33):
law enforcement. Very common names ages addresses that kind of thing.
It's privacy, right. So this is a double edged sword here.
So if the pam bondis of it all is saying, oh,
open investigation, I think the fear would be, which is
why I think you guys are hesitant for a good reason,
by the way, and I can't optimist you guys out

(36:56):
of this or the truth of this, which is what
you guys are really holding on to appropriately is that
it's very possible that they could say, yep, I signed it.
Here's the documents, but they've all been redacted because there's
an open investigation and we want to protect the victims,
even though the victims are saying, please, please, please, please
release them.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
So it's a little bit of a loophole.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
However, I think because we've all been talking about it
so much, us included, and anybody listening, and everybody's participation
I think has been so valuable. We've all been saying
that so much that I think now we're at the
point that if something is redacted out of these you know,
what is it, three hundred gigabytes of information. If anything

(37:41):
is redacted, there must be a subtext as to why.
So it's just if this is a victim's name, and
that particular victim has actually asked for their privacy.

Speaker 3 (37:52):
Who cares.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Of course, we don't need to be outing any of
the victims who have been through enough. But if it
is also names that are associated with this case, I'm sorry,
too bad. That's a part of the puzzle here. You know,
it was pretty astonishing. Harvard, the man who was associated
with the case. I won't even use his name who

(38:15):
is at Harvard. He started his class today by basically
acknowledging he's in the Epstein files. And there is something
to be said for coming clean and clear and even
it's like we talk about Marjorie Taylor, for example, whether
you love her or hate her. The idea that someone
can say, hey, I know better now, or my feelings

(38:36):
on something have changed, or I've grown learned changed, that
carries a lot of weight, I think because it's authentic.
I do too, And we should allow grace for people
to grow and change and have it be in a
different place today than maybe they were then. And I
think that's the hesitation, right. So, yeah, some people are
going to get washed in it. That is sort of

(38:56):
where we are. The Epstoin files have been held so
close to the vest and it's in such a hidden
secret that, yeah, there might be some there might be
some people that get it's death by association.

Speaker 3 (39:09):
In some ways.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
But I think we really need to be mindful of
where is the money. It's the banking records, who are
making the transfers, where are they coming from, and who
are they two and why NDA's things like that, Why
is there so much hush money? What was the initial
reason to actually give the hush money in the first place.

(39:31):
I think that's all pieces of this puzzle that I
think is bigger than just a list.

Speaker 3 (39:36):
Yeah, the money is going to be the key, right,
who's's the only key? Yeah? I agree?

Speaker 4 (39:42):
Well, obviously want the names r the powerful men and
maybe women that were participating in the.

Speaker 6 (39:52):
Disgusting as.

Speaker 4 (39:56):
Yeah, sure, obviously, But I also want to know where
the money is coming from.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Who do you think Gilaine Maxwell is thinking right now?
Like what is going on in her head in her
cushy little side show.

Speaker 4 (40:07):
I think she's worried, Actually, I think she well, I
I think she might be worried that. You know, she's
not going to really have those secrets anymore, right, She's not.
She's not going to hold the chance to the castle.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Oh my goodness, that's a really good point. I hadn't
occurred to me, right, Visibility Vera would be gone, It's gone,
bargaining chips right.

Speaker 11 (40:27):
Back to the regular prison, no more.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
It'll be no more.

Speaker 4 (40:31):
Does she get transferred back to a regular person. I
doubt it because that would just be so obvious at
that point, Like if she gets transferred, it's just like
a big red flag. But here we are, you know,
we're in the in the the year of red flags.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
So who knows? Twenty twenty five has been wild. I'm
my wild.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
It's been a wild run. Yeah, it has been wild.

Speaker 6 (40:53):
But I thought twenty twenty was the you know, the
wild one.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
Man.

Speaker 6 (40:57):
This is not wrong.

Speaker 5 (40:59):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (40:59):
I just the timing of everything is just so suss
to me. So I'm gonna I'm gonna. I'm gonna try
to be optimistic and say we're going to see the files.
But I still, deep out of my heart think that
this the timing has suspect me of opening this investigation. Listen,
I want this investigation to happen into bulp Clinton. I
think it needs to happen for one hundred percent, Like,
I'm on board with it. The timing is very suss.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
I thought it was a hoax. No, I mean, but
here's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
I don't doubt you are one hundred percent right, Like
opening that investigation on a Saturday when you've already said
there was no investigation needed because there was nothing there,
because it was a hoax and the investigation was complete.
It's pretty extraordinary. Of course, that was a loophole effort. However,
I think everyone's so hyper aware of that tactic that

(41:47):
now I think there will be even more accountability, even
if that's the company line, if you will. So if
the DOJ or the White House or Pambondi is saying like, oh,
I wish I could, but we can't, I think everyone's
going to.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
Lose their minds because I think the gig is up.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
So yes, I think everybody's right, Yes, that was suspect. Yes,
no one's opening an investigation into somebody that's air quotes Democrats.
This is not a Democrat versus Republican thing. But by
the way, let it rip to all parties down. But yeah,
that is like here, we're setting the stage for a
loophole or a technicality, and I don't think anyone's feeling

(42:22):
that anymore. I think the tides have changed. Yeah, that
we won't accept that.

Speaker 4 (42:28):
Well, Thomas Massey, he's the Republican out of Kentucky.

Speaker 6 (42:31):
That's kind of, you know, at the.

Speaker 4 (42:33):
Forefront of all this, one of the forefronts of this, right.
He calls it the smoke show. He's with the smoke screen.
He calls this investigation, and you know he because he
called it out. He's like, this is a loophole to
try to prevent these files from being released. And in
the bill that was just passed yesterday, it gives the
authority to Pam Bondi to redact anything that is in

(42:54):
an open investigation. So for me, that's like in black
and white, there's no gray area if there's no if
there's an investigation into quote unquote Democrat ties to Bill
cl Or, I'm sorry to Epstein, it's gonna halt release.

Speaker 6 (43:10):
That's how I read it. But I'm very black and
white so or.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
But to that end, is it possible that anything that's
redacted has to have a little subtext and an explanation
to someone to approve that redaction? Like who is the
final say on what is redacted? To whom is there?
Like literally one is it Pam Bondi herself, that's like
I approve that redaction. I think at this point we're

(43:34):
so like side eyed and have we are? You know,
everybody's sort of like really with the redactions that I
don't know that they'll get away with it as much
as perhaps they had. But remember they did the release
of the last they were like, we released a whole
bunch of files, and it's like it's the exact same files.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
That were released prior. How dumb do you think we are? Like,
We're not that dumb.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
So but you know, again, I'm curious, but it does
seem like it's at least moving into pace that was
pretty unexpected this time last week.

Speaker 7 (44:06):
Well, it came to such a point of inevitability. I
think it just came to a point of inevitability that
the public swayed the congressman congress people, pardon me very much.

Speaker 3 (44:18):
Do you think because I don't think they did. I don't.
I don't.

Speaker 4 (44:21):
I don't think the Republican side of Congress was not
moving until Trump said go ahead, vote yes.

Speaker 7 (44:29):
No, That's why he said it, because it was an inevitability.
People Republicans had gone to him this is this is
fact and said, because they're constituents. It's people who keep
them in office, so it's preservation. I'm not saying that
every person involved had some you know, change of heart.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
That's that's promising. So it was no.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
I think the reason why there was a call by
the President himself, who had long said do not release
the files, there's nothing to see. I think there was
a change of heart because of the optics of him
getting a sense that everybody was about to vote in
favor of the release.

Speaker 6 (45:12):
So getting ahead of it, getting ahead of it, saying
I told him it was okay.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Well, no one's disobeying me because I already gave them
a free pass after there was no free pass.

Speaker 6 (45:24):
After they already decided they were doing it anyway.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
And by the way, if Bill Clinton's at the heart
of it, go ahead, yeah, yeah, this is you know,
this is.

Speaker 4 (45:32):
I don't have any Bill Clinton hats or car wraps
or T shirts that I'm going to be burning anytime soon,
so please go ahead. Mhmm, you know what I mean, Like,
it's not my entire personality.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
Look at.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
So predictions, do we think by this time next week
there will be some new developments?

Speaker 3 (45:49):
What's everybody's prediction?

Speaker 8 (45:53):
Maybe because the holidays coming up? Would that be strategic
to try to do something around that time?

Speaker 2 (45:58):
So it would seem that everyone's very busy, So is
it a good time? Just because we've learned, even just
making this show, that on Fridays oftentimes things get released
to the press. Knowing that it's a weekend and people
aren't paying as close attention. I don't know if that's
totally accurate, but if that's the case what it was,
wouldn't this time next week be the perfect time?

Speaker 7 (46:20):
Yeah, everyone on the West Wing and also through that
is how Jennifer Aniston and Brad Pitt broke up.

Speaker 3 (46:29):
It was on a Friday. I remember it.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
Really in Mexico when they were doing the walk on
the beach. It was a Friday, tu loom. Oh no, yes,
where were you when?

Speaker 7 (46:44):
Well, if you remember where you were, give us a
call a A three one crime. But coming up the
top of the hour, we later later we are going
to talk about true crime and chill and we're diving
into Eileen Queen of the serial Killers, and then also
we're going to be going into the case of Rebecca Park.
She's a pregnant woman who has disappeared seemingly True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong and Body. Move in and listen. If you've
missed any of the first hour of the show. Big
thanks to Jared Farantino for being with us. You could
always catch it right after as a podcast because we
have so many cases to get through. We also would
love to hear from you, so if you want to

(47:41):
jump in Live eight eight eight three one crime, or
hit us up on our socials at True Crime Tonight's
show on Instagram in TikTok or at True Crime Tonight
on Facebook, or you could always leave us a talk back.
Which you're doing so well and we're very, very proud
of you, so thank you. Sam and Adam are waiting
in the con room to hear from you, so don't

(48:02):
disappoint them, buddy. This big case that you have been
telling us about all day.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
Is now mind bending, so yeah, so share.

Speaker 4 (48:12):
So this is the case of this is a new
one that we're probably going to start following. This was
the case of the twenty two year old missing pregnant woman,
Rebecca k Park, who is thirty nine weeks pregnant and
has been missing since November third of twenty twenty five.
In fact, her due date was yesterday and she is

(48:35):
still missing. So she reportedly disappeared after entering a dark
vehicle at her mother's home. Her biological mother's home in
northern Michigan, kind of just north of Lake Cadillac, if
you're familiar with the area she got into the dark
car authorities are continuing searches with no new leads or
evidence of foul play, although there are a lot of

(48:58):
red flags being raised due to the amount of registered
sex offenders in like per circle and criminal history basically
of a lot of the people that she, you know,
is has in her family and whatnot. It's really really sad,
and we're just going to stick to the facts right now.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
This case is.

Speaker 4 (49:16):
Right now currently blowing up on social media, Like my
friends will not stop talking about it, and they're like,
you body, you gotta watch that. I'm like, I have
no time because i'm you know, I'm working. I'm working,
I'm working, and I have time to sit and watch
a four hour video about you know, this case right now?

Speaker 3 (49:31):
Can you just tell me a lot of shady players.

Speaker 6 (49:34):
There's a lot of shady players.

Speaker 3 (49:35):
Yeah, and they all in this circle.

Speaker 4 (49:37):
And all these shady players are going live with these
other creators and telling these stories and it's it's insane.
So let me just stick to the facts for now.
Let's just lay the table set the table for everybody.
And you know, as Courtney so eloquently says, November three,
twenty twenty five, between eight thirty and eleven, Rebecca again,

(50:00):
she's thet pregnant woman. She's twenty two years old and
thirty nine weeks pregnant. She was last seen leaving her
biological mother, Courtney's home in Boone Township, Michigan, and basically
her she was telling her mom, don't worry, I've got
a ride, but didn't say who it was, didn't, you know,
give any information about who she was getting in the

(50:21):
car with nothing and took off. Shortly after, her cell
phone was found nearby on a two track road, which
was unusual because she reportedly never leaves home without it.
They found her phone like right after so the day,
November fourth. The next day, the Wexford County Sheriff's Office

(50:42):
issued a bulletin about her disappearance and began coordinating searches
with Michigan State Police and other agencies. And in the
following days there's been extensive ground and air searches they'd
been conducted. No additional evidence of Rebecca's location or a
foul play has been discovered, and you know, there's been
drones and they've had you know, a TVs out there.

(51:04):
This is like a I don't know if you guys
ever been to northern Michigan.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
Familiar? So yes, it is next level so beautiful. You
want to move tomorrow?

Speaker 4 (51:18):
Yeah, Like I, you know, grew up in Detroit and
we would go up north. That's what you call it
every year, like every it's a and everyone I think
who lives in southern Michigan does that.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
Yeah. And it's like a different world up there. Like camping, yes,
a huge.

Speaker 4 (51:36):
Pine tree like nature, a lot of hunting, a lot
of deer hunting and fishing, and you know outdoors time water,
a lot of water.

Speaker 6 (51:44):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (51:45):
Oh so this is just right near Lake Cadillac Cadillac.
Isn't that great for Michigan Cadillac Motor City anyway, So
I'm getting sidetracked. Anyway, this is a beautiful area, but
it's very very and so when there's drones, the canopy
right can't it makes it makes it really hard. But

(52:06):
there are drones out there and things like that. So
you know, ongoing though authorities are. They've issued a ten
thousand dollars reward for information leading to her safe return
and warned against misinformation spreading online. I mean, listen, this
is spreading so fast and so quick on social media
that the police department is getting overwhelmed with calls asking

(52:27):
questions about this case because the character surrounding poor Rebecca.
I mean, just she she literally had no chance in
life and just for real, like no chance.

Speaker 6 (52:38):
It's horrible. It's hor I hope she's okay.

Speaker 4 (52:42):
There has been no evidence of assault or bloody clothing
or file play reported at the time. There's a big
rumor that there was a big car fire, and you know,
they found all these bloody clothes and whatnot.

Speaker 6 (52:55):
You guys know how social media is, right.

Speaker 4 (52:57):
The Sheriff's department has had to take time out of
this investigation and issue statements warning people to be careful
about the social media stuff. Rebecca did have two thousand
dollars in cash, and no financial activity has been detected
since her disappearance.

Speaker 3 (53:11):
Do we know how it's known how much cash she
had on her person?

Speaker 4 (53:17):
Yeah, and I don't have the exact details, but it's
something like she borrowed the money from her grandma or something, right,
which makes me okay, So she Rebecca the missing woman
in this case, she has two other kids.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
Okay, and she's twenty two.

Speaker 4 (53:32):
She has two other kids with the baby on the way,
and her two other kids she had to give to
the state.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
So by the way, we mentioned yeah, sorry, we were
simply shady, Like it's such like who are these characters?

Speaker 3 (53:44):
There's they're registered sex offenders.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
There's several registered sex offenders in her immediate circle.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
So when we say shady, literally they're registered like her fianders.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
It's not just a disparaging remark, right your friends and.

Speaker 6 (53:58):
Family, No, of course, not nor her fiance.

Speaker 4 (54:01):
The baby's father that she's pregnant with is a registered
sex offender of little girls between the ages of thirteen
and fifteen, and it goes back decades and he's had
several several charges. I mean, this isn't just like, you know,
he stole a candy bar at the grocery store, you
know what I mean. Like we're talking shady, I mean shady.
We're not trying to like, you know, talk smack about

(54:21):
these people. But anyway, you know, she had to give
her kids to the state, her other two kids, and
so there's a lot of online speculation that maybe she
borrowed this money to kind of maybe escape and get
away because she knows that she's going to have to
give her baby up to the state as well. Okay,
there's there's a speculation of that. There's a lot of

(54:43):
things surrounding mom. You know that is we'll talk about
it later. But yeah, there's a lot of a lot
of a lot of things. And it's but again, it's
all social media stuff coming directly from their own mouse.
By the way, not this isn't made up, it's coming
from the family mouth. But there's just been live after
lilent or Lie told it's not looking like it's going

(55:05):
to be good. But the sheriff does warn not to
believe everything you see on social media.

Speaker 6 (55:09):
So hopefully the sheriff is right in this.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
Case, good life lesson as well.

Speaker 7 (55:13):
Right, do we one other just factual curiosity? Do we
know was it Rebecca Park the missing woman's mother who
reported her missing? Like, how do we know who called
it in that?

Speaker 3 (55:26):
I don't know. I think it was her.

Speaker 4 (55:28):
I think she said she went missing at eight thirty,
when she left and got the car, and when she
didn't hear from her by eleven thirty, they alerted the
authorities copy.

Speaker 3 (55:38):
Yeah, okay, so okay, yeah, I do.

Speaker 4 (55:40):
Believe that to be correct, and somebody can call in
eight A eight thirty one crime if you know me
to be incorrect. This is there's a lot of moving
pieces and it's happening very quickly, so I might have that.

Speaker 6 (55:49):
I might have that incorrect, but I do believe that's correct.

Speaker 4 (55:52):
Anyone with information about Rebecca or her whereabouts is asked
to call Wexford Central Dispatch at two three one seven
seventy nine nine two one one and request to speak
to a Wexford County Deputy.

Speaker 11 (56:07):
Perfect.

Speaker 8 (56:08):
Yeah, do you want to give a was there a
little description of how she looks or any details.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
About listen, I would just google her.

Speaker 4 (56:17):
Her name is Rebecca Rebecca K Park okay, and that's
ka y p A r k Okay. She's a petite
little thing and she's but she's very, very very pregnant.
She has a tattoo that says Queen above her eye
or her eyebrow.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
She's got like long dark hair, and she's about five
foot two.

Speaker 7 (56:39):
She I mean she's pregnant, but weighs about one hundred
and forty pounds when she was last seen, she was
wearing a black coat. She was wearing light blue jeans,
great shoes, and carrying a black bag.

Speaker 4 (56:52):
See, and this is this is the things information, This
is the thing. That's what that's what mom says now.
But previously she said she was wearing all black.

Speaker 11 (57:02):
Oh, so Mom's stories changed to.

Speaker 3 (57:04):
How is that? It's crazy?

Speaker 4 (57:07):
It's it's so much so that her best friend, her
best friend's name is, uh, what's your best friend's name?

Speaker 3 (57:13):
Page?

Speaker 4 (57:14):
Page posted on her Facebook today. Okay, Courtney, that's mom.
I can't believe. You don't even know her daughter. She
would never wear all black. And then now Courtney come
outs and say, oh, she's wearing blue jeans. They were blue,
Like it's it's crazy you guys like, wow, there's a
lot there.

Speaker 8 (57:30):
Okay, all right, well well we'll hold off on any
of the details with that, but thank you.

Speaker 11 (57:34):
That's a good one to continue following.

Speaker 4 (57:36):
Yeah, so we're going to continue to follow it, hopefully
not for long. Hopefully they find her well and well
taken care of and the baby's okay, it's good.

Speaker 6 (57:45):
But that's where we are right now.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
We're going to continue to follow it, though tragic, horrible tail.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
I mean, that's such an incredibly beautiful time when you're
about to give birth, and it's also very dangerous to
be away from actual medical care, at least not you know.

Speaker 3 (58:03):
It's worth mentioning too.

Speaker 4 (58:05):
She was nesting, she was taught a couple of her
texts have been released, and she was talking about getting
the baby room ready.

Speaker 11 (58:14):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (58:14):
So I don't know, a lot of people are saying, oh,
maybe she took off because of the two thousand dollars.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
I don't think she.

Speaker 7 (58:19):
Took off, no, right, not if she was preparing, or
maybe it was not if she left of her own
volition perhaps.

Speaker 11 (58:25):
And it's freezing cold, I'm sure in that region.

Speaker 4 (58:28):
Oh it's oh my god, it's unbearably cold. You're so
cold up there.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (58:34):
Oh man, Well, as details come out and we will
try and keep it factual.

Speaker 3 (58:39):
Sorry about the what we because.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
That's an important thing, by the way, just to that point.
You know, it's like if you had, if you were called,
if any of us listening right now were called to say,
what was everybody in your life wearing. I like to
think I would have a good memory for this and
could clock it, because only because I work in this
job that I'm really hyper aware of my surroundings. But

(59:06):
it is something to just think about. You know, who's
wearing what when, what's your surroundings?

Speaker 3 (59:10):
Let me tell your child wearing what you did, got.

Speaker 4 (59:14):
Into a car that you didn't know whose car it was,
you would probably take a quick snapshot that.

Speaker 3 (59:20):
Yeah, that's a good I don't know. I argue that.

Speaker 7 (59:24):
I mean, people like eyewitnesses can be so unreliable. And
if it's and I'm me and it's night time.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
And I blind, Yeah, we don't have hear.

Speaker 8 (59:34):
Glasses on, probably multitasking, doing a few other things, washing dishes.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Through a foggy window because of the same from the cooker.

Speaker 4 (59:42):
Yeah, so it's I don't think there's a lot of
cooking going on.

Speaker 7 (59:49):
But all right, well listen, we'll we'll keep you updated
for sure. This is true crime tonight. And we've been
talking about twenty two year old Rebecca k. Park again.
If you have any information call two three one seven
seventy nine nine two one one. And do you guys
want to talk about the Florida cheerleader Anna Okner.

Speaker 6 (01:00:13):
I'm dying to talk about the clea don't walk.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
I I have been like yelling at all that yesh yeah,
So it's a rough one.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
It's a rough one. It is.

Speaker 7 (01:00:24):
It is so Anna Keepner again. She's eighteen years old,
Florida cheerleader, and she was found dead on November seventh,
And this was on a carnival cruise ship. So her
remains reportedly were discovered hidden under a bed, and the victim,
Anna Kepner's stepmother, has requested a delay in custody due

(01:00:49):
to the ongoing FBI investigation into Anna's death. It may
potentially involve one of Anna's step siblings as a suspect.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
So, ye's unpack this, Ye, we just like do a
little deeper dive. So everyone goes in a family vacation.
Family seems cool, right, Everyone's like, this is a carnival
cruise for goodness sake, You're going there to be together
and to celebrate and to soak up the sun.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
Now someone goes.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
She's literally shoved under a bed, covered in life preservers
and left to obviously she was going to be found.

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
So this is the worst cover up possibly ever.

Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
Right, and now the finger is being pointed at a
step sibling, that's right.

Speaker 7 (01:01:39):
And she I mean it's really it's it's wild. If
what's being reported is true, and there's no reason to
believe it's not. But she Anna was on this cruise
with her father, her stepmother and the step siblings, you know.
And as you said, it sounds so ridiculous to put
a deceased body and think that covering with a blanket

(01:02:03):
and a life jacket will do the job of concealment. However,
when you realize that one of the people of interest
is a sixteen year old step sibling, if indeed please
involved case.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
This cannot be the case.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
And listen, we were pretty assured when we spoke about this,
you know, a few days ago when this was all happening,
that dad and stepmom they were all being really receptive
to authorities, and the Miami Dade Police was involved, and
there was an autopsy being done, which was pretty comforting
that the family was participating. It seemed like it was
possibly an outsider. It's an insider, potentially.

Speaker 7 (01:02:47):
Potentially, and this is another case. We will keep you up.
But listen, stick around. We've got true crime and chill Eileen,
Queen of the Serial Killers, and we'll be hearing from
you that much more true crime tonight.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
We're talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong and body move in.

Speaker 3 (01:03:19):
My voice was cracked a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
Was that excitement?

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
So I was going to say, you're excited? Am I
just maybe that's like my yeah, maybe it's mormones.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
I don't know. That was totally strange. Hey, listen, talkbacks
were coming for you, so keep them coming. Number one
if you want to join us live eight eight eight
three one crime.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
Let's go to a talkback now.

Speaker 9 (01:03:42):
After seeing her interviews, do you view Eileen Moore.

Speaker 11 (01:03:46):
As a predator or a product of the extreme abuse
or a combination of both?

Speaker 3 (01:03:52):
Right? Was she born a monster or was she made one?

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
So tough Tahan, I think this.

Speaker 3 (01:03:59):
Was a hard watch.

Speaker 8 (01:04:00):
It was, yeah, I mean, I mean important, but it
was really important. I mean, of course, because the subject
matter is so heavy and it's so hard and what
she went through in the abuse. I think I was
sort of analyzing a little bit also of the documentary itself.
It was I know, it was trying to get to
the emotional side of things, but I wanted to see

(01:04:21):
a little bit more understand more about the specifics of
some of the crimes and the way that.

Speaker 11 (01:04:25):
Some of the other documentaries are laid out. So maybe
that's comment on that. So I love it please.

Speaker 4 (01:04:30):
I think that they couldn't because if you if you notice,
it was all archival footage. The entire documentary is all
archival footage, so they could only really like talk about
things that they could show you interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
Yeah, and by the way, if you don't know what
archival means, it's like a little insider chatter about what
documentaries are often made of. Archival refers to, you know,
footage of yesteryear. So whether it's home video, news clips,
news footage, things that were gathered back in the day
that are authentic, they're not recreated. It's not like you know,

(01:05:06):
sometimes when you watch a documentary you'll see a hand
on a knob turning. That's something that was shot today,
but the hand on the knob is referencing an earlier day.
And then this documentary, it was a lot of found
footage and a lot of archive was from yester year.

Speaker 7 (01:05:26):
This documentary is of course Eileen Queen of the Serial.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
Killers is what true crime and chill also yes.

Speaker 11 (01:05:35):
And that's on Netflix if you haven't seen it.

Speaker 13 (01:05:38):
But so to answer our talk back, I think, in
in Eileen's case, I think monsters are something you become.

Speaker 6 (01:05:52):
I don't think she was.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
I think she was. I don't think I don't. I
don't think she was.

Speaker 4 (01:05:55):
Born with this urge to kill or her killing was
more or you know, like an urgency kind of kill.
Like she says that she was doing these killings and
self defense, but it was often provoked by a need
for money. You know, they were they were constantly getting
kicked out of hotel rooms and whatnot. I think they
call it existence urgency or something.

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
I'll have to look it up.

Speaker 6 (01:06:18):
But she's not like a typical serial killer.

Speaker 4 (01:06:21):
There wasn't like these cooling off periods and whatnot, like
that she was killing out of the need for There
was a sense of urgency, right, not this sense of
I need to kill.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Do you think anybody has a born with need to kill? I? Yes,
I do, Really I do. Oh my goodness, I so disagree.
Do you really we actually disagree on something? Okay, okay,
And maybe this is a wishful thought, but after every
interview I've done, and I feel like I've done thousands.

Speaker 5 (01:06:51):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:06:51):
I can't count that way.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
And by the way, not only in true crime and
just life like reality shows. Maybe it was a love
show or something completely different. But I feel like I've
been in a lot of homes and in a lot
of lives, specifically in the crime one. I believe in
my heart of parts, and I mean this at the core,
that you are born perfect and that life might just

(01:07:16):
take a tumble on you. Now, sometimes you're born with
a thing that's maybe you know, something that's maybe a
something that if you're not born into the perfect family
that has the resources to you know, help the thing
you know. I don't even want to name it. But
like if there's a disorder, or you know, if there's

(01:07:37):
some sort of a mental illness or something that could
have the proper care early.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
On, that's not always given.

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
So you might have mental illness of some sort that
maybe goes unchecked for a long period of time and
therefore is exacerbated. But I don't know that anybody's ever
born evil. This is not a religious thought, by the way,
I'm just saying, based on my experience at work, I
think that everybody. I think monsters are made Okay, what

(01:08:07):
do you think?

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
Tell me why?

Speaker 6 (01:08:08):
Well, I think, I mean, I don't know why, I
just do, but I do. I mean, I'm not.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
A bad egg like sometimes people hear I do you
think people talk about they get a lemon of a car, right,
like it's just like a clunker.

Speaker 7 (01:08:20):
Yeah, I mean because also and I hear your point, Stephanie,
but also and I can't think of a good example
the top of my head think of cases we've covered
where like what's the what is the ration now where
they were raised in what what you would call a

(01:08:40):
loving environment?

Speaker 2 (01:08:43):
Well, nobody or by the way, I just think environment. Right,
So you could have a perfect human that was born perfect.
And again this is not a religious thought, despite my
religious thoughts, and no, certainly I'm religious now, but like
we're taking that aside. Truly, just like the bare bones
for crime, a perfect human is born in a less

(01:09:03):
than perfect environment. And you know, we've worked on so
many of these cases. And yeah, you add, you know,
an abusive household, and you add a lack of and
you add, you know, some people are less affected maybe
or have the wherewithal to survive countless amounts of abuse
and sexual abuse. For mom, and I mean some people

(01:09:25):
can stand that storm early on and some people can't.
And then there's no care, and then it gets pushed
under the rug, and then it grows and nobody talks
about it, and then it grows a little further, and
then we talk about it, and then it just gets
real weird and everyone's like, oh, they're a monster, and
it's like, well, yes, they are behaving as a monster,

(01:09:46):
and there's no question about that. Well, alien's a hard one.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
It's a perfect example of hard. It's a hard one.
She's act.

Speaker 4 (01:09:55):
She was born into chaos, into the worst scenario, so
she was did even have a fighting chance, right.

Speaker 6 (01:10:01):
She was born in nineteen fifty six.

Speaker 4 (01:10:04):
She was a leapier baby, born into a total dysfunction
so deep that by the time she walk the damage
had a really already begun. Her dad, Leo Pittman, he
was a diagnosed schizophrenic and a convicted sex offender.

Speaker 3 (01:10:18):
I mean, I mean, perfect storm.

Speaker 11 (01:10:21):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:10:21):
He never held his daughter, he never saw her face.
He was in prisoned when she was born, and he
died by suicide behind bars when she was thirteen. Her mom,
her name was Diane, and she was a teenager trying
to survive her own trauma, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
She was literally a teenager.

Speaker 6 (01:10:36):
She was literally a teenager.

Speaker 4 (01:10:37):
She had two kids by the time she was eighteen,
she was overwhelmed.

Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
She had no support.

Speaker 4 (01:10:42):
She literally just vanished out of the kid's life and
left her and her brother Keith in the care of
their grandparents. And the grandparents were also violent and alcoholics.
And you know, they were all sexually abusive.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
Now they were sexually abuse seeing her the entire time,
So like, where does she go to see a world
that is not hideous?

Speaker 13 (01:11:05):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
You know, when you see the world as hideous, you
behave hideous.

Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
Right to one percent.

Speaker 4 (01:11:11):
And by age eleven, she's eleven years old, and she
had already learned like the simple rule that would guide
her life moving forward, and that was like her body
is a currency.

Speaker 3 (01:11:22):
You have to use it or starve. Yeah, and she's
only eleven at this point. Yes, And by the way,
it was also true for her that was her reality, you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
Know, like that is not like something she made up
in her head. This is something that was her truth.
And although that was out of alignment from everything else
in the real world or the healthy world, I should say,
I don't know, it kind of breaks my heart.

Speaker 4 (01:11:46):
She began she was eleven years old, and she was
trading sexual acts to boys at school for money and
cigarettes or rides. She slept in abandoned cars in the
woods behind houses, in like little makeshift shelters she built
from like little tent scraps she would find. And when
she was fifteen, she became pregnant after being raped by

(01:12:07):
a man she later said was a friend of her
grand her grandfather's.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
Yeah, grandpa's buddy, by the way.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
She gave birth at a home for unwed moms, and
the baby was immediately adopted out. And I don't really
think she really ever kind of recovered from that, honestly.
Her grandfather kicked her out of the house and she
was fifteen years old. She was homeless. She she was
truly homeless, on the ground in the snow, totally alone.
And that was when you know, she was like, Okay,

(01:12:34):
I'm getting out of here. And as a teenager, she
learned to live her life through drifting. She was basically
she hitched tike across the Midwest. She slept in cars
and truck stops and anywhere she could. The highway became
her family passing strangers became her income. Right, she was
she was, you know, a sex worker, and that's Rourke.

(01:12:56):
I'm not you know, I'm definitely not degrading her for that.
And by eight she was drinking hard. She was in
a lot of fights. She was committing a lot of
petty crimes to survive. There are tons of arrest records
from Michigan, Colorado, dy disorderly conducts, assaults, car theft, armed robbery.

Speaker 6 (01:13:17):
And you know, she was tough.

Speaker 4 (01:13:19):
She was quick to anger, she was defensive, She was
very emotional, and she was always ready to kind of
like stand up for when people were getting kind of
like bullied.

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
That was kind of like how that was thing?

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
Yeah, she wassion a little version of her.

Speaker 5 (01:13:34):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:13:36):
So then she meets She's and she's she's been with men,
you know, her whole life, you know. And then she
meets this woman Tyra, and we and we meet her
in the documentary Tyra. Right, And this was in nineteen
eighty six. She had moved to Florida, she had hitchdiked
to Florida and she meets this woman named Tyra. She
was a hotel maid living in Daytona Beach and Tyra

(01:13:59):
was pretty stable. You know, she was pretty stable, She
was quiet. She offered Aileen, you know, something she had
never really felt, which was like a sense of belonging.
Like Tyra and her really loved each other, I.

Speaker 3 (01:14:12):
Think, I think.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
And they were consistent, like there were a consistency.

Speaker 4 (01:14:15):
Yeah, there was a stableness like, yeah, I think that
Aileen had been missing her entire life.

Speaker 2 (01:14:20):
And didn't even know how to probably function in right.

Speaker 4 (01:14:23):
And you know, Aileen just fell deeply in love with her.
She didn't, she said she didn't know she could even
feel that way about a woman, you know. And they
basically moved in between cheap motels, rented rooms, borrow couches.
Money was always tight and Tyra expected like a lot,
I think, and Eileen could not provide that for her.

(01:14:45):
And that's why I was saying, like her killings were
a sense of urgency and that's like this exit, you know, spree.

Speaker 3 (01:14:52):
He would leave me if I did exactly interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:14:56):
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of how I feel she felt like,
and you know, we have her continuing to do sex
work to provide and that's when she's like, Okay, I
have to do this because I need to provide for
this woman that I love, that is providing me all
this love that I wanted my entire life, right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:16):
Like money can't be the thing that makes it go away.

Speaker 3 (01:15:19):
Right right.

Speaker 4 (01:15:20):
So again they were moving around and you know, she's
going to truck stops and wooded pull offs and this
became her hunting ground basically, you know, and to pick
up victims, right And.

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
Do you feel like she was picking up victims because
she had like I hate men, and I've been I've
been had one too many times, so don't get in
my way because at some point I've had enough. And
these were like I'm fighting with a demon that I
was fighting with when I was young, and you're just
the face of it right now.

Speaker 3 (01:15:54):
So it's a little more cold.

Speaker 4 (01:15:56):
Well, you know, that's a really interesting question because the
first first man that she killed, his name was Richard
Mallory and this was in nineteen eighty nine. He was
an electronics like store owner, and we found out in
the documentary that he had a violence, yes, which was and.

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
She was almost like in her mind of Robin Hood
of sorts. Again, I'm not justifying a Leen the Serial
Killers Rivers in any way.

Speaker 11 (01:16:23):
But you're trying to understand.

Speaker 3 (01:16:24):
But we're just the unpacking.

Speaker 4 (01:16:25):
So it's interesting now that she said that she killed
him because he started attacking her and raping her. Yeah,
and she was trying to get him off of her basically,
and she killed him.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
Yeah, because her grandfather had done that before and she
was born into a story that revolved around a lot
of sexual event.

Speaker 4 (01:16:43):
You come to find out this guy has a past
of that of that is that a coincidence or not happen?

Speaker 7 (01:16:50):
That was stunning in the documentary, by the way, when
the reporter tells the prosecutor, I found this information in
a day day dateline dateline. Yeah, but even I mean,
you know, Stephanie said, you know she picked up the
gun or as I heard it, you know, did the
murder because as it was happening in Grandpa in this regardless,

(01:17:13):
I don't know, I think anyone.

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
Being attacked in that way. It's so true.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
Even if it's yeah, if there's no care to your point,
if there's no backstory story, you know, there is a
piece that you're like, no, yeah, and they raised here
we are and because she's a sex worker, it's supposed
to be cool. But in this regard it was no,

(01:17:41):
and different times.

Speaker 4 (01:17:43):
Yeah, at different times, so really quick to sum up,
each man was shot with the twenty two. Several were
found nude or partially unclothed. Their cars were missing, their
wallets were gone, their bodies left in wooded areas, and
they found this pond slip and they had did the
finger and that's how they caught her because she was
pawning the items that she would steal from these guys.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
He which was also pretty messy. By the way, we're
not saying he had it come in any means.

Speaker 3 (01:18:12):
It's for priority.

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
But I do think it's such an interesting cases and
as women, it's a very rare thing for another woman,
very rare kill so many so and.

Speaker 4 (01:18:24):
Again, I don't think she was really a serial killer,
and any know, I don't think I don't think she
was really a serial killer. I think she was an
exigent spree killer.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
We can we talk about that in this next Okay,
let's stay.

Speaker 3 (01:18:36):
Well, well, keep it here.

Speaker 7 (01:18:37):
We're all going to learn a new vocabulary from our
body boo, and we also have some pop backs to
get into. So yeah, keep it here to Crime tonight
or give us a call. Eighty eight through one Crime
and the show with us.

Speaker 2 (01:19:02):
Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. Steph here with Courtney and
Body and it's true crime and chill. Maybe we're talking
about the Netflix documentary. If you haven't watched it, technically
you were supposed to watch it, so this was your
homework that you're late on.

Speaker 3 (01:19:21):
So spoiler alert. We're talking about Eileen.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
She's a Queen of the serial Killers and it's a
documentary about what is a very rare thing, which is
a female serial killer. And Boddy, you had just said
before the break that you did not believe that she's
an actual, air quote serial killer, that she actually was
falling into a different category.

Speaker 3 (01:19:41):
Yeah, describe and tell I don't know for sure.

Speaker 4 (01:19:43):
I'm not an expert, but you know, I do read
a lot, and I think that Eileen was an exigen
spree killer.

Speaker 3 (01:19:50):
I don't think she was a serial killer.

Speaker 4 (01:19:51):
And I would actually really like to talk to somebody
who like an expert about this.

Speaker 6 (01:19:55):
Because I always don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:19:56):
So there's a couple differences, and I can get through
it very quickly because I know we got some talkbacks.
We got to get too about this, Okay, So the
cooling off period.

Speaker 6 (01:20:03):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:20:03):
Serial killers have a cooling off period. The times can
range from like days to months years. They return to
normal life in between the killings and violence is part
of a cycle. It's a fantasy preparation, kill, cool down,
repeat right, right, with a yes, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:20:21):
It's scary, is the cooling down. It's so scary.

Speaker 4 (01:20:24):
Exigent spree killers, there's little there's no cooling off period.
There's or there's no where, there's a little one that
The killings happen in rapid succession, often within days or
weeks of.

Speaker 3 (01:20:36):
Each other, sometimes even hours.

Speaker 4 (01:20:37):
By the way, violence is driven by immediate pressure, not
ritual Okay, so that's the most important difference. Serial killer
is a cycle cool kill, cool down, repeat right. With
exigent spree killings, it's a collapse. There's a sense of
urgency you're killing. The motivation is different for serial killer motivations.

(01:20:58):
It's fantasy driven, ritualistic, oftentimes sexually motivated, power control dynamics.
The kill satisfies a need temporarily, and then they go
on this cooling off period and the need comes back.
With exigent spree killing, it's survival based, it's crisis driven.
It's often tied to stress paranoma.

Speaker 3 (01:21:21):
Do you see the different.

Speaker 2 (01:21:22):
Money or as in this case, it's she needed money,
she was in love, she wanted to maintain a relationship,
and this was.

Speaker 3 (01:21:31):
A housing and.

Speaker 4 (01:21:34):
Interesting also, victimology is it's kind of a big deal too.
Serial killers they plan and fantasize for long periods. Sometimes
they even stalk their victims. They develop kind of a
signature modus operandi. They have organized behavior, even if they're
disorganized in real life. Right exigence spree killers are opportunistic,

(01:21:55):
they're disorganized. They kill out of necessity or some kind
of crisis. Like I've been saying, their.

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
Own rage is emotional rage, right, So if I'm being
sexually assaulted for the tenth time and I've had enough,
then there's it's like emotionally based and it's in the moment, right.

Speaker 3 (01:22:15):
So they're doing I get it's such a great distinction.

Speaker 8 (01:22:18):
At the end of the doc, I think they were
talking to another woman where she said, right before she
was on death row, she called herself for admitted to
being a serial killer. But now I'm as we're talking
about this, I bet at that time they probably wouldn't
have the definition that you just had, and she didn't
know how to refer to herself as anything.

Speaker 2 (01:22:35):
And there's not enough women to even dissect and interestingly
look at I mean, body has done such a great
job unpacking that, because you know, there's not a ton
of examples to point to.

Speaker 5 (01:22:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:22:47):
I did a quick search and I saw about they're
like only about five notable female serial killers that I
could come up with, So which I think we might
have something on that topic one night as well.

Speaker 3 (01:22:58):
We should kill her women killer women? Killing women are
less common?

Speaker 8 (01:23:03):
Yeah, what did I see? It's only ten to fifteen
percent of all serial killers of women.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
Yeah, killer women as a general is not less common,
but I think in the serial.

Speaker 3 (01:23:12):
Killer department even more so, there are less.

Speaker 2 (01:23:15):
And I think women there's a lot of like you know,
I love you, I hate you.

Speaker 7 (01:23:20):
You're dead, right, but percentage wise it has to be
right less than men. But oh yeah, you know, I
was gonna say on what you were saying, Stephanie, like
I don't condone violence of any kind.

Speaker 3 (01:23:34):
Oh, obviously you're the sweeter everybody here. There were all
we're all lovers and gators, we're all passive. That said
Eileen's life. I know what she didn't mean.

Speaker 2 (01:23:47):
The only thing that makes sense it is the original
story that makes a monster, you know. And by the way,
it's really hard to watch the documentary if you haven't
seen Charlie's their own in the film.

Speaker 3 (01:23:58):
Oh why did she do an extraordinary job?

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
When you watch the documentary, we're like, hey, can we
give her another Academy Award because she really rushed it.
And by the way, even then, when I saw that movie,
and it was likely at different time, and certainly I
didn't work in true crime at that time, it didn't
hit me the same way. But her performance of course
did and her make under But I remember thinking she

(01:24:22):
played a killer. I didn't really appreciate the origin story
and sort of.

Speaker 3 (01:24:28):
They don't go into it that put. They don't go
into it in that film. As much as just surprising,
it is surprising.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
But she did a great representation of her.

Speaker 6 (01:24:36):
She really did so, I mean visually too.

Speaker 3 (01:24:39):
It's astounding.

Speaker 2 (01:24:40):
As I was watching it, I was like, maybe I'm
not loving this as much because it's so difficult to
watch because it's so painful.

Speaker 4 (01:24:46):
I often watch these documentaries and I never really ever
feel sorry or sympathy for the defendant, right, the suspect,
the killer, whatever, but her I did.

Speaker 3 (01:24:55):
I looked at her and I just felt sorry. I
felt bad for her. Yeah, I feel like she didn't
have a chance.

Speaker 2 (01:25:00):
Like it's just like, yeah, but this is what a
one plus one equals too, right, Like again, not justifying
and there's no justification obviously on any side but me
and if you guys want to do a top.

Speaker 3 (01:25:12):
Breaker's, hey, this is producer Ava.

Speaker 10 (01:25:16):
And I just wanted to wait in on the Eileen
doc because it just made me so mad when they
were interviewing her prosecutor and he was bragging about how
he knows the judge and he got the judge to
let him submit the evidence for the other cases, the
other six murders that weren't even part of that trial.
It just seems so unfair and like the whole system
was rigged against her, and it made me really sad

(01:25:37):
to watch.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
Yeah, I'm so you're producer Ava, so wait, we love
you Ava, rost Star. You are yeah right though correct,
it was horse garbage.

Speaker 3 (01:25:50):
That was almost whoa that would.

Speaker 2 (01:25:52):
Not happen today's even today as the bill has been passed.
In the mcne files, I don't think this would have
been hen in the same way. And the hope would
be if Eileen was born into the same world, maybe
somebody would have stepped in, maybe there would have been
child protective services, maybe she would have had an education

(01:26:12):
or somebody that like looked back, there's so many amazing
foster people. I don't know. The world is better than
we think.

Speaker 7 (01:26:18):
Okay, yes, I agree there is more good than bad,
which is the thing I really do need to remind myself.
And you say, however, Rebecca Park, that we're just talking
about and no one's taking the right the children involved
with seventeen different And I'm not making light of this
at all, no, but.

Speaker 3 (01:26:35):
That's why it's shot in Rebecca's personal life that kids
have been taken from her.

Speaker 2 (01:26:42):
Yeah, it's great, okay, Yeah, because every single person around
her is a registered sex offender. By the way, when
Eileen was coming up, again, I'm not justifying, but.

Speaker 3 (01:26:51):
There weren't really registered sex offenders.

Speaker 2 (01:26:53):
There was no registry of the stiff one who was
being called to the carpet for crimes against children. If
you were raping your child or your student, or you're
in your parish, it was just sort of like looked
the other way, we've seen the movie Spotlight. We know
what has happened in the world since then, and I
like to believe we've come so far, which is why

(01:27:14):
the epscene thing makes me so crazy, because it's like, really.

Speaker 3 (01:27:17):
Guys, how do we not evolved?

Speaker 2 (01:27:19):
And by the way, honestly, my takeaway in most of
the cases that we've worked on is that abuse behind
closed doors, physical abuse and sexual abuse is more rampant
than anybody knows. I think that numbers are so far
higher than anybody will know. There's no consensus, so there's
no statistics because there's so much shame attached, and then

(01:27:41):
it repeats, and it repeats, and it repeats, and then
the shame and then that repeats. It's actually shocking. I
think that would be the one. I don't even know
why we're talking about this, but it is the one
factor that I would say is the unspoken truth to
a lot of things that happen in the cases that
we work on.

Speaker 8 (01:27:57):
Yeah, yeah, well this was a hot topic out of
our listeners, So we have another talk back if we
want to go to one more.

Speaker 14 (01:28:03):
About Yeah, of course, did anything in the never before
seen Death Row interviews change your understanding of Eileen's motives
and maybe point of view.

Speaker 3 (01:28:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:28:17):
Yeah, Well when I first saw some of the interview,
I saw a lot of tenderness in her when she
talked about her girlfriend, yeah, and that she loved her
and she still loved her even though she had turned
on her and testified against her and you know, basically
set her up for this confession, right. I saw a
lot of tenderness that I had never seen. I mean
I saw it in Monsters, you know, a little bit

(01:28:37):
with her performance and was done so well. But seeing
it with her, you know, it personally, and then seeing
her kind of like spiral a little bit mentally.

Speaker 3 (01:28:48):
I never seen that.

Speaker 4 (01:28:48):
You know, I'd heard about it, but I had never
seen it, and it just really listened. Like I said,
I never really saw I never feel sorry for these people. Ever,
I'm like, you deserve it whatever. I felt sorry for her.

Speaker 7 (01:29:00):
It's so funny because I often will feel I don't
know crazy. In Love, which fifty two stories that really
did change me of under just an understanding of every
piece of the puzzle.

Speaker 3 (01:29:15):
And how so anyways, in Love as.

Speaker 2 (01:29:17):
A podcast we did every episode is a new episode
of an amazing love story that goes real South and
ends ultimately a murder and Courtney worked in a very
closely and I would say fifty two episodes later, you
had a different understanding or feeling for like, sometimes love
is so intertwined with rage. We're not justifying it, but

(01:29:39):
this is true, right, and that can make circumstances unbearable.

Speaker 7 (01:29:44):
Yeah, and how people can be driven and it was
heartbreaking body to see. Maybe the layers was. Yeah, I
just part of it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:53):
I've interviewed so many people that on the nose have
done very bad things. I have never left an interview
and that one thing time. Let me just think for myself.
I don't think kirk me. I will kirk myself if
I remember when when I fall asleep tonight, which I'm
sure I will. But top of head, there isn't a
single human being that I have sat down.

Speaker 3 (01:30:11):
With ida eye.

Speaker 2 (01:30:12):
And by the way, they have may have done some
messy things and made some very bad choices on its nose,
and then when you hear them speak. I have never, ever, ever,
ever left an interview not thinking I hear you, Oh, really,
I feel you, Like we have to allow perspective, like
none of it is given the same playbook and it

(01:30:36):
doesn't justify. You got to do the time when you
do the crimes. Like the end, I'm pretty judging jury
on that front, so you got to pay up. But
I literally have never left a single interview where it
was ida I where I was like, well I those
black wack of news. In fact, quite the opposite. I've
always kind of left a little changed and sort of

(01:30:58):
felt like it gives.

Speaker 6 (01:30:59):
You a different perspective.

Speaker 2 (01:31:01):
Is that just like, yeah, it's not a justif I
don't feel good about it or bad about it.

Speaker 3 (01:31:05):
I always right, like humans are, you know, complicated. Yeah,
and you got to connect a little bit.

Speaker 7 (01:31:11):
If you're literally sitting across from someone and speaking to them,
it is. It's a different thing than reading about Believe me,
if anyone read some article about every bad or questionable deed.

Speaker 3 (01:31:23):
I've done in my life not so charming, you.

Speaker 2 (01:31:26):
Know, even in Britain, But like, yeah, now add every
crappy circumstance known to man dumped on a human at birth,
and you're like, I don't know why I didn't thrive.
You know, some thrive so well. And again it's all
about talk. If you do not talk about it, if
you do not widen the circle and talk outside of it.
If you're the victim of a crime and you don't

(01:31:48):
get the chance to talk about it, it gets weird.
It just builds into the snowball of craziness. We only
have one minute left, but maybe another talk back.

Speaker 11 (01:31:57):
I'm not sure. I don't think we're going to have
the time for it because this one. I know. I
know I teased you by accidentally saying with.

Speaker 2 (01:32:03):
My headline, but listen, I get not the soapbox that
we're not justifying.

Speaker 11 (01:32:08):
My eyes in a different way.

Speaker 8 (01:32:10):
So thank you for that, because I look at this
documentary and a lot of what you're saying, it's a
tough documentary.

Speaker 2 (01:32:15):
Yeah, we're not justifying Eileen though. Are we clear on that?
Raise your right hand. If we think serial killing is bad.

Speaker 11 (01:32:21):
We all, I think we can all.

Speaker 3 (01:32:22):
We all thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:32:28):
Oh boy. But I think we're just going to leave
this with it. I don't know, courting.

Speaker 7 (01:32:33):
Ad that we look forward to being with you tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (01:32:38):
All right, stay safe out there.