Delphi Murders & Miami’s Unsolved Crimes: With Joseph Scott Morgan and Enrique Santos

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Sunday, August thirty first, and
listen everybody, it's Labor Day weekend. We hope you're having
a wonderful one. Thank you for being with us. I'm
Stephanie Leidecker, joined of course by analyst Body Movin. Courtney
Armstrong will be joining us later in the show, but
right now we also have Joseph Scott Morgan who's jumping

(00:42):
in our very favorite forensics expert, also the host of
Body Bags, and he and Body are going to really
unpack the forensics in one of those cases that we've
all been following for so long, the Delphi murders back
in the news again.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Really important documentary Red just came out.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
I don't know if you guys had to check to
see it, and it really does shed light on this
recent guilt conviction in the case. So the Delphi murders
is something that Body has been living and breathing so
closely for so many years, baddie, do you want to
catch us up a little bit on just the broad
strokes of this hideous case.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
You know, there's a lot of broad strokes, So this
is going to take a little bit of setting up.
This happened in Delphi, Indiana. This was in February of
twenty seventeen, so you have to put yourself back eight
years ago. I'm on Facebook, and you know, I'm scrolling, scrolling, scrolling,
looking at the cute pictures of the cats and stuff.
And there's an advertisement for a Facebook group and it's

(01:38):
called catch the Snapchat Killer. And I, you know, immediate, Okay,
I'm in, let's go look at this. This is right
up my alley EO, exactly right. It was I think
February seventeenth. I think it was twenty seventeen that I
saw this group. I joined this group and there was
a photo and audio and the photo was like this

(01:58):
really blurry guy all right, And all we knew is
that there were two dead little girls thirteen and fourteen,
Abigail Williams and Liberty German, out of Delphi, Indiana, and
this photo of this guy. And we heard these words
guys down the hill, or actually I think at first

(02:18):
it was just down the hill and that's all. We
had this really blurry photo. But I was all in, right,
this is exactly what I'm in for. So a little
bit of background. This was February twenty seventeen. It was
unseasonably warm in Delphi, and Delphi is a really small town, right,
like three thousand people, three thousand people out there. It's
very small. Everybody knows everybody, and it's unseasonably warm. The

(02:40):
girls have the day off from school because they're like
catching up on a snow day, and they decide to
go to the park and take photos, you know, along
the trail, you know, get some cute pictures for their
Snapchat and Instagram stories and whatnot. So they go to
the trails and you know, they had their sister drop
them off, Liberty's Libby. Her dad was going to pick
them up at three thirty. Everything was arranged and by

(03:03):
the way, this was very normal.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
This was nothing outside of the normal other than this
random day off from.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
School, right, completely normal. So Kelsey, who is Libby's sister,
drops them off at the Monan high Bridge Trail. The
trailhead at about one thirty five pm. You know, it's
partially wooded. It's got an old elevated like wooden train bridge,
and it's kind of spooky, but it's kind of like
a place where people go and take photos and look
at fish and you know, it's a really beautiful place.

(03:31):
So they get dropped off about one thirty at approximately
two oh seven, So about a half an hour later,
Libby posts a snapchat photo of Abby walking across the
bridge and an empty photo of the bridge, and so
those get posted to her snapchat around two o seven. Well,
shortly after that snapchat post, Libby's phone captured something else,

(03:52):
something that you know, really know what he was expecting,
and it was video and audio of a man approaching
the girls on this bridge. And this is where, you know,
things take a really menacing turn. And again we get
this audio guys down the hill. Now we're at the
time we don't believe that he's directing the girls down

(04:12):
the hill where they had met their unfortunate demise. And
to that end, he.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
Becomes kind of known as bridge guy. Right, this is
like kind of makes worldwide news at that point, very blurry.
He seems a little on the older side. I mean again,
blurry lurking. It does appear that he's like lurking over
this bridge. It kind of reminded me of like stand
By Me, the movie stand By Me, where they're running
across that bridge. You know, picture that it's beautiful, but

(04:39):
it's populated, it's a commonplace to go.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
This is not right completely remote. So that's around two
thirty around. Okay, So three point fifteen comes and goes.
The Libby's dad comes, can't find them. He's making phone calls.
He's calling you know them, He's calling Abby and Libby.
He's calling Kelsey, Libby's sister. He's calling girls Wears girls.

(05:02):
While around five point thirty, the police are finally contacted
that they can't find the girls, and a search ensues
until around midnight. Around noon the next day, February fourteenth,
two volunteers found the girl's body on a private property
about a half a mile from the bridge across the
Deer Creek, and you know, the case was very quickly
deemed a double homicide. Early police statements confirmed that evidence

(05:27):
found at the scene, including the audio and video on
Libby's phone, suggested that the girls had been kind of
confronted and led to that location. Investigators initially withheld a
lot of details in this case, but it did launch
what would be one of the most publicized murder investigations
in small town US history.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
And outsider looking at that time, this is every human's
worst nightmare. Again, these are a thirteen year old, fourteen
year old. They're best best friends. They're just going out
to spend the day outdoors. You know, everything everyone's getting
in courage to do. Get off your phones, get off
your iPads, get off you know, not playing games, get outside, right,
nothing uncommon. We saw the interview with Libby's sister who

(06:08):
dropped them off, and she just you know, gave them
their sweatshirts, made sure they had them, and off they
went to kind of play right school. So the idea
that they're being missed, or potentially I should say, the
idea that they're being led down this hill into what,
you know, we we find out to be pretty harrowing circumstances.

Speaker 3 (06:28):
Remember, they're on these train tracks, right, They're on these
train tracks, and they're elevated. It's very high up, you know,
And they were found down this hill and across the river.
So they were literally led down a hill and that's
the audio that we heard for the really the only
audio we had for almost seven years. We didn't get
the full Bridge Guy video is what we're gonna call it.

(06:50):
There was a video that Libby had taken with her phone,
and we didn't get the full video until the case
was totally adjudicated, which it has been now. Pretty short video. Yeah,
so the girls were found around noon on the fourteenth,
and then of course it turns into a crime scene.

Speaker 4 (07:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well listen just the real time of it. You know,
the girls are discovered, you know, and they've met an
untimely death. It's Valentine's Day, right, imagine that we could
all probably picture where we were on that Valentine's Day now,
and you know, their scene did say a lot.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
It did, and it was an unusual scene. So Libby,
she was completely nude, and she had obvious and you
could see her wounds. She had blood on her hands
and blood on her neck and some blood on the
bottom of her feet. And Abby was wearing Libby's clothes
and major her wounds weren't so obvious, and mainly I

(07:49):
think because she was clothed and they had kind of
like been covered with some sticks. You know, long branches,
possibly to obscure the view from the river, you know,
kind of camouflage them a little bit. But what's interesting
about this is that even Abby's shoes were on. She
had her shoes, but she had Libby's jeans and sweatshirt on.

(08:11):
It's very unusual. And again Libby is totally naked.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
And what that would imply, and again, Joseph welcome jump in,
is really that you know, not only did these young
women and again these are some graphic details, so you know, listener, beware,
and we'll get through them as quickly as possible. But
you know they had been undressed and redressed and placed.
And that video that you speak of where some man

(08:36):
says Hill, we all probably have heard it. It's really
haunting when you realize those are the very very last second.
So more on that later.

Speaker 5 (08:45):
With just I think that it's important to understand the
scope of this thing because compared to a dwelling, like
a structure that you work with crom scene in, you're
very contained, right, You're bordered by walls. I know that
sounds very obvious, but this is a completely different kind
of animal. One of the investigators described the taped off
area as being the size of a football field. Just

(09:08):
let that sink in a little bit, because this is
an old adage in forensic so that you can never
expand the tape, you can only contract the tape. So
some of that can be explained by the idea that
wide net catches more fish, and so you set up
the perimeter in a very broad manner. But to me,

(09:28):
it's also saying they don't really know where things are.
They know that concentrically. They've got these two beautiful young
girls that have to say that they've been brutalized is
an understatement. And the thing about it is this is
one of those places you don't wind up by accident. Body.

(09:49):
You did an excellent job of describing this train trestle,
because this thing is harrowing. But here's the other piece
of this. You were talking about the height. This is
not like you're going to a nation monument and you've
got steps you're going to descend. We're talking about a
slick hill that is literally twenty feet in height. If

(10:09):
you don't know what twenty feet means, that means two stories.
And there is a subject, a grown man that is
apparently coaxing them down and I got to tell you
all along, I've always felt as though that the image
of that blurry image of him coming across a bridge,
he has his hand in his pocket, and there's been

(10:31):
some talks of firearms that sort of thing. Just think
if you were these two and these are not older teens.
These are young teen girls that are just kind of
finding their way and they're just hanging out and some
old creepy man comes along and it's telling them to
go down the hill. And this is a word I
love to use in this case, and I've used it

(10:51):
many times, is the word menacing. And there's actually laws
out there in certain jurisdictions about menacing. You can menace people,
And menacing gives you that idea that it's just this
overt threat and he could just merely out of his pocket,
pull the weapon and show it to them. I'd be terrified.

(11:12):
How much more so these young women.

Speaker 3 (11:14):
And in the full video that has since been released,
the girls are very compliant, wouldn't you.

Speaker 4 (11:19):
Very own God?

Speaker 5 (11:20):
Yeah, you're right on the money. They are compliant. That
in no way is I'm not imputing in counting the
way I got to tell you this about Delphi in
rural areas, which I have primarily lived most of my life.
One of the ways you measure a town in rural
areas is how closest walmart as rural as this place

(11:41):
is so rural that the occupants of Delphi, it's you
had to travel almost twenty six miles just to get
to the closest walmart, and they're walmarts everywhere. That's why
I say, that's a big clue to me. That's a
huge clue as an investigator, because your field is very
narrow at this point.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
And also, Joseph, to add to that, this bridge you're
talking about that the girls are being led down a
hill from that would kind of make them trapped, right,
So if you're a perpetrator who maybe wants to do
something scary, you know, here are these two young girls
crossing this little bridge.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
There's nowhere to run. You bring up such a good point, Stephanie,
because at the one end of the bridge where you
enter is where the trailhead is, and then at the
other end of the bridge, you're literally trapped. It's a
home like, you can't just walk through there, it's private property.
The only way to go down to get off the
bridge is to either go down or to go back

(12:37):
across it.

Speaker 5 (12:38):
I got to tell you, if you're thinking about this
from the perspective of like the military, if you were
going to set up an ambush, this is what's referred
to as a choke point, Like you have no option
to go left or right. Everything narrows down. You're familiar
with the terrain, This terrain is some of the most
daunting terrain. You can even begin to imagine. What's your

(13:00):
option here? You're going to do what he says to do?
Are you going to throw yourself off the bridge? You
know that's you can try to run past him. But
if he presents a weapon or he's menacing, yeah, are
you going to do that? Even I mean as a child,
are you going.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
To do that?

Speaker 5 (13:14):
I got to tell you your default position is going
to be to obey. And that's what they did.

Speaker 3 (13:20):
You know in the video and the photo that we
did receive over the course of the last seven or
eight years, it was long opine that he had a
gun in his pocket. Again, this video is very blurry.
You can't really see anything, but a lot of people
said that they could make an outline in the jacket
pocket of the guy, the bridge guy. So what's interesting

(13:42):
is that they did find that in between the two
girls where they ended up resting between the girl's bodies
near their feet, there was an unspent forty caliber bullet
and it forensically matched to a six hour Pee two,
which is now owned by the suspect, which is very interesting.

(14:04):
So this I don't know how to go to this
or For six years there was no arrest made in
this case. Then one day, all of a sudden, at
the near Halloween, we get, oh my gosh, there's been
an arrest in Delphi and it's this guy nobody has
ever heard of. And his name was Richard Allen. And
he wasn't on any of this sluice that we're sussing

(14:27):
everybody out. It wasn't on anybody's radar. He works at
the local CBS. He's a kind of an unassuming guy,
very surprised that this has happened. And what they did
was Richard Allen self reported that he was on the
trails that day because again they had this video right like,
we're looking for this guy. So he self reported and

(14:49):
everybody was giving tips like, oh, I was there, I
saw this. Yeah, the terrain this was the weather.

Speaker 6 (14:55):
All.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
That's a good citizen who actually calls into a tip line.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
So he does wife. He told his wife, hey, I
was at the trailhead today, like and those girls have
gone missing. And she's like, you've got a call. So
he calls and he meets with a conservation officer and
you know, the conservation officer looks at his phone, takes
a statement. He says, I was there during this time.
And then six years go by and he's arrested. Six
years six years.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
Hold, I thought we're going to continue this conversation. So
the Delphi murders were unpacking the forensics with Joseph Scott
Morgan and you know, again this is Boddy's case.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
That's so close to her heart. So stay with us.
We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. Happy Labor Day weekend, everybody.
I'm here with crime analyst Body Movin and our very
owned forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and host of the
podcast Body Bags.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
And listen, please trigger alert.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
We're talking about a really sensitive topic, the Delphi murders,
and listen. There was an arrest by Richard Allen. That's
the part in the case we just are at. Now, body,
do you want to pick it up there?

Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, So everybody's wondering, what do they have against Richard Allen?
What is the case against Richard Allen? And we get
like a really really short PCA from the Delphi Police Department.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
What's a PCA stand for probable cost Evidavid And it's
basically what the police are telling the judge and you
know this in DA.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
Basically, this is the evidence we have against the suspect.
Can we go ahead and arrest them? And it's just
the evidence, not all the evidence. Obviously, they're not going
to put everything in there. It's just enough to get
somebody arrested.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
Okay, it's important because again, without it, you are not
entering anybody's living space or frankly looking for more evidence.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
So in this PCA, we learned that there was a
forty caliber bullet at the scene the crime. And we
didn't know this before. We didn't know, you know, the
girls were not shot. The girls were killed with a
blade of some kind. That's all we know. And we
don't even really know that, by the way, we don't
officially know that, but we do know that. The only
reason we know that is because the funeral home told

(17:17):
the families they would have to wear scarves. So it's
the only reason we knew that they even had a blade.
After six years, we didn't really know the cause of death.
There was a massive gag order in this case.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
Our hearts are so with the families too, on all
fronts because it's a sadistic case.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
So they found this bullet. Then we learned in the
PCA they found this bullet, well, they found the card. Basically,
a volunteer with the police department was going through like
all the Delphi tips and she ran across one that
had Richard Allen's name on it and saw, oh, they
need to follow up with this guy. And so they

(17:54):
followed up with him, and they got a search warrant
to his house and they found that he had a
forty caliber gun and they linked the.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Two and there was also a footprint, right, so didn't
they have a footprint and also.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
The same shoe size or grid. Yeah, he admitted to
being there. He said he was there. They had a footprint. Bridge.
I actually don't know about this footprint, to be fair.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
The way point though, even if they did, whether they
did or didn't have this footprint, it is no big
deal because he was there by his own admission.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, he said he was there. So they found a
lot of DNA too, by the way, they found a
lot of DNA and the girls, but none of it
matched anybody. They matched each other because again Libby, you know,
was nude and Abby was wearing Libby's clothes, So of
course they're going to have DNA. You know, Abby's going
to have Libby DNA on her and they found unknown

(18:47):
male DNA. None of it matches Richard Allen, So.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
Joseph, what do you make of that? Obviously the terrain
was very specific. It was February, so you know, authorities
have said since then that that didn't help in terms
of evidence and DNA findings, like none of it matched
the accused now convicted killer.

Speaker 3 (19:09):
Is that common?

Speaker 5 (19:10):
Yeah, I mean to be able to find unknown or
know unmatched DNA of any kind. The thing that makes
this kind of peculiar, though, is the fact that it's
not like you're in a dwelling. You know, if you're
in a dwelling where you've got multiple people living in
a dwelling, you would expect DNA deposition from a variety
of sources. Okay, but if you're out in a wooded area,

(19:33):
depending upon where they're collecting it from. Now, if it's
coming off of the bodies, which I would imagine it
was probably off clothing, that can point you in a
very specific direction. I really wonder how rigorous they were
about the genetic testing. I'm a big fan now of
forensic genetic genealogy. I wonder if that's something that they
could revisit at this point, because back then, even though

(19:57):
it was a concept, it was not in pract just
like it is now. I mean, we're hearing cases every
single day now. I'd like to see if there were
because there are people out there that have suggested there
may have been other people. And just for peace of mind,
if I could back up just a little bit and
say something about the unspent cartridge that was out there.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yeah, because I definitely want to get into the unspent cartridge.

Speaker 5 (20:19):
It's very interesting, it is, and it's a specific round.
It was a Smith and Wesson forty col. Forty col
is not real, real common. It's common, but it's not
like nine millimeter the line line share. People that carry concealed. Okay,
I know that there will be debates over me saying this,
but line's share of people that carry concealed are going
to carry nine milimeters. It's one of the most prevalent. Yeah,

(20:42):
there you go. It's one of the most prevalent handgun
calibers out there. But I have kept and you can't
see this, my colleagues here can but I've kept this
on my desk all of these years covering this case.
And this is a forty caliber Smith and Wesson.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Maybe an inch big, right, So what you're holding up bullet, it's,
you know, just a standard bullet, and it's probably the
size of the tip of your thumb.

Speaker 5 (21:06):
Yeah, yeah, it is, and it's but it's actually more
robust than say a non milimeter okay, a bit larger.
The rub with this is that they used a unique
it's not unique, but it's not as satisfying for people
as say, a true ballistic test. When you run, yeah,
when you run around down a barrel, a barrel with

(21:29):
the lands and grooves in the barrel has a very
specific ballistic fingerprint.

Speaker 4 (21:35):
Right.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
Because again it's important to remember this bullet was not fired.
This is fun spent bullet, it's not the jacket, it's
the bullet itself.

Speaker 5 (21:45):
Yes, so you've got the anatomy of this. The top
part is actually the projectile that's seeded in here. The
bottom part is the casing, and the entirety makes the
bullet okay, And then down here you've got propellant, and
then you have the primer cap down to the bottom
that has primary element in it. That's a bit different chemically. Anyway,

(22:08):
when they did the examination, when they collected Richard Allen's
forty cow, they take it to the State Crime Lab,
maybe even that FBI, I'm unclear, but the Ballistic Section
Indiana State Crime Lab would be perfectly suited to do this.
They would take the same round, not the one that

(22:28):
they're going to admit into evidence, but they're going to
take the same round, probably multiple times, place it in
to the barrel, into the tube, and they're going to
rack it multiple times with each individual, like they may
run ten through there to see if they can replicate
what are referred to as extractor and ejector marks on here.

(22:49):
And they run up the side and on the base
of the round. So when the mechanism grabs it, this
is soft metal. This is like brass, So if you've
ever had brass around your house, you know that it's
not like steel. So it leaves little marks, and those
marks can be tied back to a specific weapon, but
they are not as specific as the projectile being fired

(23:11):
and going down the barrel as it's spinning, that leaves
a very specific ballistic fingerprint. So this is where you
know a lot of people took exception to this bit
of evidence that it's collected seen. I think it's a
key piece because it goes back to what I'd mentioned
earlier about menacing. How many movies have we seen where
somebody's out on the street and all they do is

(23:32):
present a weapon, and they just demonstrated it happens in
real life. Yeah, it happens in real life too. People
are menaced with weapons. Hey, I'm backing off. How much
more so? You get two young girls down and it's
down in a hole essentially, let's face it. You get
them down there and all of a sudden you rack

(23:52):
that round and you're in such a height and this
is on me, I'll say this right here, and right now,
you're in such a high in state of sexual desire
in this perverted manner toward these little girls that guess
what you forget? You stick the weapon back in your pocket,
but you leave this racked round on the ground and

(24:14):
stuff to your point, making it difficult. Remember we're still
in February, and there's that drop of leaves that have
taken place just a few months back. The ground here
is just.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
Covered and they'll damp and yeah.

Speaker 5 (24:28):
Damp and mossy, I say, mossy, kind of mulchy feeling.
It's got that smell that you smell out in the woods.
I'm not going to say it's dumb luck. I think
that to my way of thinking, I think they probably
ran over this entire area with a metal detector because
these rounds, they're so heavy and so dense intact, they
will literally move, gravity will pull them. If it's laying

(24:49):
on a leaf, it'll roll down and go beneath other leaves.
So you have to run a metal detector to see
the things that can't be seen with the unaided eye.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
So can I just ask one thing just to reset
are discovered? I mean tragically. Their clothes have obviously been
taken off and rearranged. One found completely nude, a bullet
which Joseph Scott Morgan, you're describing this. This bullet is
found between them. They're in this rough terrain at the
bottom of this hill while they were trying to cross

(25:20):
a bridge above head. And also, you know again it's
a day later. We know that search was very large,
per you, Joseph, the size of a football field. Now
add twenty four hours, and we know that there's this
video and audio about forty three seconds worth. It seems
like there should be easy to find who this guy is,

(25:41):
right well, and now they're making this arrest. The guy
is a pharmacist, he's working at the pharmacy. He's a
family man, has kids, his wife.

Speaker 3 (25:49):
How could that be by the way he calls in,
he never left Melphi. He never leaves Delphi, which was
a little bit of a tell.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
They always had said psychiatrists or a psychoanalyst had said
that perhaps stay they left and kind of rolled into
the real world and just sort of acclimated back into
the community. That would track. So, Joseph, back to you,
and I'm sorry to cut you off there. Back to
the forensics.

Speaker 5 (26:12):
No, I was look at I've got to confess body,
and I had a conversation about this, and I don't
know she concurs with it, but this is kind of
my thought. Going back to Alan working at CVS, there
was a story that had floated about when the funerals occurred,
there's only one place in town where you get pictures developed.

(26:33):
I think that's CVS. You know, still getting thirty five's
printed and doing. You know, everybody sees these when you
go into the drugs.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
You know it's a funeral. They're going to get pictures
blown up.

Speaker 5 (26:44):
And then he funeral, he allegedly makes the offer to
do everything for free, and this is offered to the family.
I might be misspeaking here. I'm not sure. It may
have been Kelsey directly. And you know the other thing
that I talked about.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
The accused Richard Allen, who's working at the CVS.

Speaker 5 (27:05):
YE he's a nighttime manager essentially, right.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
So he's volunteering services to the families for the girls funerals, photographs,
et cetera.

Speaker 3 (27:15):
This is like the worst.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
Wasn't there that movie with Robin Williams about the guy
used to make the photographs?

Speaker 3 (27:21):
Okay, so that's what was that. It was a scary movie.
I guess very similar.

Speaker 5 (27:26):
Well, you know, the thing about it is with the photographs,
you have an insight into people's lives. If you're getting
hard copies when these things are developed, if they're developing
in house, you know, they do. They have the machinery
to do that. You sit there and you can just
flip through it. And who's going to pay Who pays
attention to what the guy in the photo booth does?

Speaker 6 (27:43):
Anyway?

Speaker 5 (27:44):
And this is the other thing that Body and I
mentioned with one another. If you're looking for intimate details
about people, how much more intimate is it that there
are not too many people in my little town where
I live that know more about me than the Walgreens pharmacist,
because they know everything. They know what kind of medications
you're on, they know what your phone number is, they
know where you live. I mean, how many robocalls do

(28:06):
we get say your prescription is ready?

Speaker 7 (28:08):
You know?

Speaker 5 (28:08):
And just that's the kind of information that this quiet,
unassuming person, you know, he kind of mels into the background,
and these are And the thing about is that's so
disturbing to me about the scene itself, is that these
are very dark fantasies that he's playing through. I had

(28:31):
a serial killer years ago that used to redress bodies,
turn underwear inside out, to put back on the victims,
the idea that you can treat people like their dolls.
And that's it's horrible that he did to this precious girl,
and that's what he was doing. He completely dehumanized them,

(28:52):
and it's just absolutely heartbreaking.

Speaker 3 (28:54):
It's a hard case. And one thing I'm never going
to forget is during the trial, one of the person
taking the photography of the scene said that Libby, poor Libby,
who by the way, is nude. You know, she's fourteen
years old at a time when all girls are so
just self conscious. You know, there's streaks down her eye

(29:16):
and it's like dirt, but there's a clear path of
clear and he said that those were Libby's tears. It
cleared a path of and I you know, I'm never
going to forget that, never forget it's.

Speaker 5 (29:27):
An indication of pain response and when you see that,
you know that. And I've always held this that this
was a torturous death, that this was not a quick death.
And even the forensic pathologists that did did these autopsies
states that on the stand that these were not immediate deaths,
that they would have lingered for a period of time,

(29:49):
there was an awareness of what was happening to them,
staring up either at him or to that sky and
the trees above them, and this is the last thing
they're going to see.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
And we know that true be true based on the
blood pattern. You know, in the woods there's pools of
blood and by the way, it's all Libby's blood. There's
pools of blood, and we know that she walked through
her own blood because her blood is on the bottom
of her feet. So she gets her throat slashed, your
first thing is going to be to grab it, right,

(30:18):
So that's what she does, and that's why her hands
are bloody. And then she's stumbling. She grabs a tree,
and that's where the f tree comes. We're going to
talk about that in a second. She grabs a tree,
she's stumbling and walking through her own blood where she
and then she finally comes to rest is she sits
down and she's pooling more and then finally lays to rest.
So we know we know it took a minute. Abby.

(30:39):
We're not one hundred percent sure on I don't think,
but Libby definitely definitely suffered. It's hard to talk about.
It's a little kid.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
These are two beautiful little kids, two beautiful girls. And again,
you know what comes next is also pretty compelling because
there have been Richard Allen's family says he's innocent, bottom line, right,
So we want to kind of unpack that. Despite the
fact that he is arrested and goes to trial and
is found guilty, some have suspected that there was maybe

(31:08):
a cult involved that was operating in the area. So
stick with us. This is true crime tonight.

Speaker 3 (31:13):
We'll be right back with more.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time, and we're talking about the
Delphi murders and the tragedy in Delphi, Indiana. And Joseph
and Body have been following this case so closely from
day one. It's sensitive, Body continues, Sorry to have to
cut you off earlier.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
Now it's fine. So in October twenty twenty two, Richard
Allen was arrested and charged with the murder of Abby
Williams and Liddy Jermyan. After the case had gone unsolved
four years five six years after their death, a suspect
was finally apprehended in charge with the murder of thirteen
and fourteen year old. Upon his arrest, the forty eight
year old pharmacy technician husband and father pled not guilty,

(32:07):
but nearly two years later, Richard Allen was sentenced to
one hundred and thirty years of prison as he was
found guilty of these murders. A tip that I spoke
about earlier, that Alan had submitted himself back in twenty
seventeen admitting he had been on the trail that day
of the murders, was rediscovered in twenty twenty two by
a volunteer who was kind of like organizing case files.

(32:28):
And during that twenty twenty two search of Richard Allen's home,
police located that sig Sawyer P two twenty six pistol,
which forensic analysis tied to the unspent forty caliber rounds
left at the scene. Again, this is not a fired bullet,
but they matched that gun to that bullet austriations from
racking it, which is what they are opining that Richard

(32:52):
Allen had done in a menacing way to kind of
threaten the girls and to get them to be compliant.
So here's the thing. Richard Allen was not in County
jail while he waited trial, Richard Allen was sent to
the Westville Correctional Facility, which is a prison. So he's
technically an innocent man, but he's being held in a
prison and why how how is that possible? And wasn't

(33:16):
he in solitary confinement? Yeah, it was a safekeeping order
they I believe they said it was due to protect him,
because again, this is like a child killer, you guys, right,
Like they've got to put him in like protective custody.
And they didn't have the facilities in Delphi, Indiana to
take care of this. So he was sent to the
Westville Correctional Facility and he was put in solitary confinement.

(33:38):
And while he was in solitary confinement, he started acting
kind of crazy. All right, I don't know how else
to say it. He started acting kind of like he
was losing his marbles. On top of that, he started
confessing to the crimes and he would say things like
I did it, I killed Abby and Libby. He would
confess to his psychologist, who I've got a lot to

(34:00):
say about I've got a lot of really negative things
to say about her. He confessed to his wife, and
he confessed to his mother. Now his psychologist. Guys, doctor
Walla is a true crime fan and she's in all
the Delphi discussion groups. By the way, it's that about
this case.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Wow, So again the person who's the analyst who's analyzing
his mental health and ability to be at trial.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
By the way, I have no skin in this game.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
I'm just surprised that anybody can be put into solitary
confinement while waiting for trial because it's intended to make
you crazy.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
It's intended to do that, right. So now you've got
people in myself included, who by the way, want nothing
but for the person who did this to be put
in jail for the rest of their life. But now
you've got people questioning things because of all this crap.
You know, I'm a believer in law enforcement. I believe
in the system. I don't like having questions about somebody's

(34:56):
guilt or innocence, you know what I mean. I don't
like it at all. I like to be cum convinced.
And the situation surrounding Richard Allen's incarceration and what they
basically did to him while he was incarcerated in prison
makes me kind of question if those confessions are actually
valid or if they are the ramblings of a crazy person.
Because he was on Haldall and he was on all

(35:17):
these they put him on all kinds of crap. Then
he got doctor Walla, who's you know, his psychologist, his confidant,
going into Gary Hughes, investigates Frickin' channel talking about the
Delphi case all night. I just don't like it. I
don't like it at all. It doesn't sit right with me.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
And by the way, you're not alone on that. There's
been a ton of chatter on all sides of this case.
On the one hand, of course, everyone wants justice for
these two beautiful girls and their families have been through
excruciating pain. And on the other that's pretty uncustomary. So, yes,
he has the same gun apparently in his home that
that very common bullet was found in between the bodies. Yes,

(35:55):
there's a shoe print that apparently, you know, fits his
size and the type of schu grid he had. And
by his own admission, because he called in to tip
off the police just to say, hey, yeah, I was
in the area at the time, he's kind of basically
calling in a tip as a good samaritan. Now years later,
fast forward, that ends up being something being held against him,

(36:17):
and then he confesses in various ways while in protective custody.
Also he was in solitary confinement.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
Right, and then don't forget over the course of the
six years that you know, this investigation was, you know,
happening before arrest was made. We received four different sketches
and they all look different. None of them look like
Richard Allen, not a single one. They all look different.
One's an old man, one's a skinny young man, one's

(36:47):
just a young man. I mean, they are wildly different.
But every time I bring up, I don't know if
Richard Allen did this or not. Here's what I'm told.
Richard Allen admitted to being on the trail that day.
Richard Allen is Bridge guy, Bridge Guy killed the girls.
That's what I get told. Like almost like sit down
and shut up.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
Body, interesting because they don't nobody really wants to kind
of revisit this. But his family is standing by his
side and claiming that there was other circumstances in and
around the area, potentially a cult that was operating nearby.
We don't have to super get into this, but there
there was this allegation that there's a cult, an odinous cult,

(37:26):
and that means that maybe there was some sacrificial stuff
going on. Perhaps the branches and some of the leaves
and things that were discarded on their bodies when they
were found, maybe that was linked. Maybe some of these
pools of blood that body you described so scarily or

(37:47):
in such scary detail from Libby's body, like the hurry
on the tree, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
They thought it was like a ruin. One of the
Todd click he's an investigator with the Indiana State. He
kind of thought, you know, maybe this kind of looks
like the everything's kind of staged, is what he thought.
And they called in a professor from Purdue that like
has knowledge about these cults. And in the area of

(38:15):
Delphi they have this Vinlanders cult, which is this motorcycle
gang that is an Odinist. Now again, normal people practicing
Norse paganism are not bad people, but it's been hijacked
by these white supremacists, this this Odinists cult, these Norse symbols,
you know, symbols and whatnot, And Todd Klick kind of

(38:38):
thought that, you know, maybe these Vinlanders might be involved. Well,
turns out one of the Vinlanders, son is dating Abby.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
I mean, that is pretty harrowing detail. It's kind of
compelling to what it says. What does that mean to you?

Speaker 3 (38:52):
So what is that?

Speaker 2 (38:53):
What do you make of that? Do you think there's
any validity to that, Joseph? Do you think that has merit?

Speaker 5 (38:58):
Well, this is the thing because it's not just the
one percenters. I'm assuming that that's what they are that
are involved in this. Their supposition has been that there's
an entire collection of these individuals that work at this prison.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
So well they admitted. By the way, since you bring
that up, Richard Allen said that he was being threatened
by prison guards wearing odin patches. Okay, because okay, and
everyone's like, yeah, okay whatever. Nope, next document release we have.
Guess what we have the warden admitting, yeah, his guards
are wearing odin patches. So Richard Allen is saying, I

(39:35):
confess because I'm under thread at the prison. I'm going crazy.
Now you've got these odin patched prison guards, you know,
signing affidavit said yeah, they wear patches in prison.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
It was.

Speaker 5 (39:49):
Yeah, that would be allowed relative to an official uniform
because in those uniformed environments like that, they're very specific
how you're supposed to dress and listen. The thing about
prison and is that everything in prison, no matter how
passive it is, mean something. And you know, all you
have to look at tats, You look at the way

(40:10):
sign languages done, people behave. There's certain ways ways you walk,
there's certain ways you talk, who you talk to, what
you do. That's, you know, to me, that was interesting.
Here's another thing. I always wondered about the forensics of
those branches, trying to understand if they had been tool
marked or not.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
Joseph, they left them, you know, they left them there
for three weeks.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
What does that mean exactly if they left them there, well,
they didn't.

Speaker 5 (40:35):
Collect them and bring them in. And these are like,
these branches are overlaying the bodies in a way. I
think you guys use stuff. I think you mentioned camouflage
a little while ago, so it couldn't be seen from above. Okay,
I'll give you marks for that. But I've seen these illustrations.
There's one kind of famously infamously that's out there where

(40:56):
it's a diagram that has been drawn, and these branches
are laying over and people are saying it's almost like
watching somebody do a magic trick with cards. Here, look
at this, you know they're saying, you can see this letter,
you can see this formation and yeah, in the way
the branches are laid there. Yeah, And so why is

(41:17):
there not more evidence of a bunch of people? So
if this is a okay, let's just go with it.
Let's say it's a sacrifice. Let's just say that, why
is no more ground disturbed around this area where you've
got people marching in to witness this, and and why
are they going to do it in broad daylight when
you know that there's Uh, it just seems it seems

(41:37):
as though. And listen the post mortem interval piece to this,
the status of their bodies when they were examined, it
kind of marries up with the time that approximates when
they disappeared. So that's that's a big, big piece to this.
One other thing too, that not much hay has been
made over is the distance between walking distance and direct

(41:59):
walking distance between Richard Allen's house and the location you
can literally walk across. I think it's like two pastures.
Nobody's going to see you. You can approach off of
Logan's property and descend down into this area and never
be seen. You just kind of poof, there's no need
to park a car there' and so you can actually

(42:19):
walk back and forth. So for me, that's always kind
of stacked up in my mind relative to pointing back
to him. And the thing about it is he never left.
As you guys mentioned, he has intimate knowledge of this area,
and the fact that you've got an individual, in my
opinion at least, that's acting out a devious sexual play

(42:42):
in his mind with these young girls that he can
influence and do these things with. You know, all signs
point to him. From my perspective, I think that to
be more satisfied, I'd like to have more connectivity from
a DNA perspective, footprint evidence, all those sorts of things.
But you know, it's a done deal now. Now will
they uncover some sinister group that's actually behind the scene.

(43:06):
I don't know. Maybe they will. I hope they continue
to investigate.

Speaker 3 (43:09):
I do too, and you know, with appeals coming, maybe
they'll have some new evidence to share with us. I
hope they do. One thing about this trial that was
really hard, you guys, is that everything there was a
massive gag order in this like one of the strongest.
I've even the family's under gag in this case, which
is really unusual. And so when it went to trial,
the only way you could really know what was going

(43:31):
on is it that you were inside the courtroom, because
no media was like, there's no there's no photography, there
was nothing allowed, no audio, nothing. So after each day
everybody would sit around and listen to people who were
inside the courtroom that day. And depending on who you

(43:52):
listen to, is what you heard. So if you're listening
to a pro defense side of the aisle, you're going
to get all the bad things to stay did. And
if you're listening to a pro state here about what
a bad and evil person Richard Allen is. It was
very very interesting because like mass media, like normal media
like that live in whatnot in Indiana were divided really

(44:15):
even the family. Yeah, I mean it's it's been very difficult,
and so maybe because of that, I've just I'm left
very unsatisfied with this case. Like I just have it
in my head that there's something that's going to convince me,
and listen, it's not important to convince me. I just
want to be convinced. I'm just nosy and I need
to know what happened.

Speaker 5 (44:33):
I think this case, I got to tell you, I
think it's precedent setting in a sense that this is
a perfect example why we do need cameras in the courtroom,
and all of this conspiratorial stuff, all that stuff just
kind of vanishes in the air. And look, you don't
have to show the pictures. We've seen this played out
over and over again. You don't have to show gory pictures.
You can block that out, doesn't have to be seen.

(44:55):
But just to catch what's going on in there and
to understand the tenor of the commonversation is very important
here and so much.

Speaker 4 (45:03):
So in this case.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
Yeah, and this is a shiny example of what happens
in the dark, right, because all this stuff has happened
in the dark, and we have to rely on other
people's stories to tell the American public. And I just
don't like it.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
And by the way, it does speak a lot also
to again Libby and Abigail, their families, Our hearts are
with them. But also how smart she was to be
able to take her phone and to snapchat something live
at two o seven pm that audio video whatever forty
three seconds that she was able to record was one

(45:38):
of the most critical pieces of information, right, So I
would have to imagine this case is going to continue,
and to your point, body, there's likely appeal after appeal
after appeal to come. Right now, he's looking at one
hundred and thirty years sixty five per victim claims his
innocence and his wife stands by him.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
Yeah, and she's insistent that he's innocent. And you know,
she's standing by him. And whether you know right or wrong,
you have to admire that she's not given up on
her husband. And she absolutely does not listen, either she
does not believe it or she is in bad denial.
Joseph any predictions, I know we have to wrap it up, but.

Speaker 5 (46:18):
No, it's good. It's gonna Yeah, it's going to go
up on appeal. And I think I'm kind of reinvigorated
by the proposition that new stuff could be introduced, because
in order to form an appeal, you have to bring
forth new substance information. Yeah, what that information will be,
We'll see what else have they uncovered. Do they have
a team that has the ability to uncover stuff? Because

(46:38):
I can tell you there's a lot of attorneys out
there that would love to make their bones on a
case like this, so we'll see what happens during the
course of the appeal.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
Wow, big show listen. Thank you for sticking with us.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Wishing you a fantastic rest of your holiday weekend. Please
remain safe out there. This is True Crime Tonight. We've
been talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
And we will be back soon.

Speaker 7 (47:11):
This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here
with Crime Analyst. Body move in.

Speaker 3 (47:20):
Do not forget.

Speaker 7 (47:20):
If you've missed any part of the show, you can
always catch the podcast. Joining us now is the award
winning host of Cold Case Files Miami, Enrique Santos. He
is a trusted voice in the radio world. He is
a reserve officer with Miami's police Department, and on his podcast,
he teams up with Cold Case Homicide Unit. He does

(47:41):
that to re examine unsolved murders and give families a
renewed voice.

Speaker 6 (47:46):
Enrique, welcome, Thank you so much, Courtney. Congratulations on the
success of this podcast as well.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
Well.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (47:52):
We're welcome.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
Hoanpefully We're so big as you one day exactly and
is trusted let's add you know and is trusted. You're
very trusted. I went and read all about you and
you are like incredibly trusted in your community, and you
you take that very seriously, and I just I really
wanted to commend you on that real quick.

Speaker 4 (48:10):
Thank you.

Speaker 6 (48:10):
It's it's a blessing to be able to represent my
community and Latinos that live simultaneously and two two worlds
at the same time, English and Spanish and living you know,
bicultural and doing wearing so many different hats at iHeart
and broadcasting and in law enforcement. It's a ticket with
a great deal of responsibility.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
Well and you will do well. Rique.

Speaker 7 (48:34):
So off of that, So you have worked in law enforcement,
can you explain a little bit, because I got to
hear your background on your fantastic podcast, talk to us
about working in law enforcement and also how that shaped
the way.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
You approach these cold cases in your podcast.

Speaker 6 (48:52):
Sure, so let's start with Cold Case Files Miami. Right,
it's more than just a I would say more than
a just a true crime podcast. It's a it's a
personal mission for me. As a reserve police officer in
the city of Miami. I've seen firsthand the pain that
lingers when when justice is delayed or never comes for
some people unfortunately. You know, I've talked to frustrated detectives

(49:13):
who carry these cases with them for decades, and families
who are still searching for answers. Many of these you know, parents,
especially the mothers, got to applaud them. It's like, Wow,
I've learned so much doing this podcast. They've turned their
grief into into purpose and some of them have created foundations,
community efforts to support other victims and families, and they

(49:33):
keep their loved ones memories alive. And that's probably that's
a lot about what the spirit of this podcast came
about and why I decided.

Speaker 4 (49:40):
To do it.

Speaker 6 (49:41):
That's exactly why we created Cold Case Fouls Miami in
partnership with a School of Humans, and of course I
Heeartsmicha wul Do a podcast network. So we go beyond
the headlines. We re examine evidence with forensic experts. We
dive into how breakthroughs and fingerprinting in DNA and are
changing the game and evolving, and how it's evolved since

(50:03):
its inception years so many years ago, right and giving
a voice to those whose stories have been left left behind,
so they're not just statistics.

Speaker 4 (50:11):
These are these These stories are about people.

Speaker 6 (50:13):
Sons, daughters whose lives were stolen tragically, senselessly. Many of
these cases, some people out there still may know something
that can help solve them.

Speaker 4 (50:23):
Right.

Speaker 6 (50:23):
So it's like a sense of responsibility beyond the badge,
beyond my.

Speaker 4 (50:27):
Work as a reserve officer.

Speaker 6 (50:28):
I'm a former full time police officer, left police work
to do broadcasting. I live in these two awesome worlds,
so I get how can I really do something for
these victims in these families.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
And especially a really unique position, right like you are
living in both worlds. I've never met anybody that's done
that before, and I think it's I'm going off script here.
I think that's really cool. I think that is really, really,
really cool because you're able to get national attention on
cases while also speaking the language of law enforcement. Right,

(51:01):
that is a really unique position, and you wield it well.
I think this is your crime. Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm
Body Moven and right now we're joined by the award
winning host of Cold Case Files Miami, Enrique Santos, and
we want to hear from you. Give us a call
at eighty eight eight thirty one crime and leave us
a voicemail or hit us up on the talkbacks using

(51:21):
the iHeartRadio app to No, you just.

Speaker 6 (51:24):
Described very well the spirit of why I do it
and why I try to use my platforms in a
positive way. Right, So, speaking to my experience as a
police officer, that has definitely been critical about who I am.
I was a police explorer as a young man, then
became a police dispatcher, then into the police academy, then
into police work, and then I bumped into broadcasting kind
of by accident. So I do two things that I'm

(51:46):
absolutely absolutely passionate about and that I love doing, and
again that it's critical, and I use my platform again
do something positive. So, you know, going back to law enforcement, Yeah,
I've been through the crappy parts of it.

Speaker 4 (51:59):
I've stood over dead bodies.

Speaker 6 (52:00):
I've interviewed devastated witnesses and been part of that the
pursuit to bring killers to justice. I've also had to
you know, knock on doors and deliver the horrible news,
the worst possible news to families that their loved ones
aren't aren't coming home.

Speaker 4 (52:14):
I've done that, I've been that.

Speaker 6 (52:15):
I've had to do that since I was a young
police officer at the age of nineteen, fresh out of
the police academy. That kind of trauma, I would say,
doesn't it doesn't fade, you know. It gives me a
very very real understanding of the pain that these families
and investigators carry. So when I revisit cases like our
episode one, which was sixteen year old Brian Herrera who
was killed in broad daylight, he was shot and killed

(52:38):
in the streets of Miami years ago for his cell phone,
or Joyce Sapp who was a beloved woman was murdered
in Liberty City here in Miami, and.

Speaker 7 (52:48):
Talk about Episode one just really quick, absolutely because that
it staggered me, just the senselessness, like you said, it was,
you know, over a cell phone that he pointed out
it wasn't even connected to you, couldn't even make a
phone call.

Speaker 3 (53:05):
It was so he could play games.

Speaker 7 (53:07):
And he was an a student and go riding his
bike to his friend's house to do his homework over Christmas.
So sad, devastating, But I also I think everything you
were speaking about before, your experience in dealing with families
who have lost the most important people in their lives,

(53:27):
it gives you the pathos to tell the stories in
a really compassionate way and really highlight because his mother
what a force of nature and handing out the photos.
Can you talk about the importance that victim's family members
can play as cases go on.

Speaker 6 (53:49):
One hundred percent of specifically with episode one with Brian
her Ever, the sixteen year old that was shot and
killed for his cell phone. It was horrible because like
it was Christmas time, right, and he had a younger,
younger sister that still lives today, but she was too
young than to understand what was going on with her
with their brother who had just been murdered. Christmas was approaching,
so sand is still coming. Hearing Brian's mom tell that story,

(54:09):
how devastated, how heartbreaking that was that they were dealing
with the murder of their son at this very same time,
having to deal with Christmas and trying to keep Brian's
younger sister, their young youngest daughter shielded from all this
negative negativity and new life. And the connection is very real,
not just for the family, but also you know, have
a colleague of mine, a former Miami police officer, that

(54:32):
heard the episode and he called me right away when
episode one dropped about Brian her Era, and he remembered
everything he told me.

Speaker 4 (54:37):
And I think I was on the scene. I remember
seeing Brian shot.

Speaker 6 (54:41):
I helped coordinate with the fire rescue to get him
transport and all that kind of stuff. That gave me
the chills. It was a reminder that these cases still
live in the memories of the people who were there,
the law enforcement officers, the first responders, more especially the families.
Right when it comes to the parents who've lost children
to violence, that I would say, they want closure, right

(55:02):
and they deserve it.

Speaker 4 (55:03):
I think we can all agree there.

Speaker 6 (55:05):
You know, imagine losing your child in this descript and
this herndous story that we just laid out. In episode five,
I talked to a very strong woman named Tangala Sears,
and she was never getting clear answers after her son
was murdered, so she turned her pain into purpose. She
founded an organization here in Florida called Parents of Murdered Children.

(55:27):
There's another woman named Lawrence Webb in episode two. Well,
Lawrence was murdered when she was thirty two. This was
in twenty thirteen. Her case lingered in limbo despite a
known suspect, so they knew who the guy was, but
they didn't have enough evidence to charge them.

Speaker 4 (55:44):
So imagine living with that trauma too. It's like, we
got it.

Speaker 6 (55:47):
They're pressuring the police departments, they're pressuring the state attorney's office.
These families are forced to live in a suspended state
of grief. Yeah, they want to know why, They want
to know who, and they want to know, you know,
to know that the system didn't forget about them, that
the system didn't forget about their loved one.

Speaker 7 (56:06):
Was she the mother and that was also quite another
absolute powerhouse of a human with her resolve to just
keep calling and making sure that people did not forget
and calling and calling. I think another thing that your
series does really well, that Cold Case Files Miami does

(56:29):
really well is also while telling the personal stories, you
also give listeners some knowledge of sort of legalities. I
think it was episode two where an officer is speaking about, well,
we have enough suspicion that we can arrest someone, but
then you have to go to the prosecutors and they

(56:50):
have a different standard. And that's just the reality, and
you know, sometimes it's I don't know, there's a lot
of obstacles to get to final justice.

Speaker 4 (57:00):
One hundred percent.

Speaker 6 (57:01):
Yeah, episode two with Laurent's a Web, the thirty two
year old that was shot in twenty thirteen, So a
suspect had emerged right within days, but formal charges didn't
follow for like five years afterwards. So we explore in
this episode, you know why justice was delayed and if
the case can still hold up in court. And that's
another big problem with with these with these cases, you know,

(57:23):
they go for a long time unsolved. These cases collect
dust on the detectives, sometimes retire, they move on to
other units. The witnesses aren't so clear about what they saw,
they don't remember their memory you.

Speaker 4 (57:36):
Know, fades. So those are all that factors in absolutely
how much.

Speaker 3 (57:41):
Has the advancements in forensics helped bring new hope to
old cases that you've experienced.

Speaker 6 (57:49):
This has got to be one of my favorite episodes,
which is episode three, because I talk with Miami Daye
County State Attorney Catherine Fernandez Rundel. So I'll give you
a little background on Kathy and why I'm so proud
of her and what is and what she's done in
Miami Dade County. So, Kathy's been the state attorney for
Miami Dade County for thirty years.

Speaker 4 (58:10):
She's the first.

Speaker 6 (58:11):
Cuban American and Hispanic woman to ever hold that role
in the state of Florida. So really, yeah, she's led
one of the She's led one of the largest prosecutor
offices in the country it's Miami Dade County for over
thirty years, and has been a pioneer in criminal justice reform.

Speaker 4 (58:28):
Truly, she's a powerhouse.

Speaker 6 (58:29):
She's created specialized courts for domestic violence, for mental health,
which we know finally is getting the attention that it
deserves now these days for our vets. She's very respected
and it was great to sit down and talk with her.
She told me something and I'll never forget, you know.
She said, the truth always rises, and she meant that

(58:49):
literally because there's the case that she made reference to
as a mister Bates, a man who had gone missing
after a hurricane hit here in South Florida. The floodwaters
unearthed this this briefcase, and inside was mister Bates's body.
So that's wild, right. So the discovery led to the

(59:09):
reopening of his case and the conviction of a former
business partner for his murder. So cases like that are
now solvable because how far forensic science has come. One
major turning point, of course, was in two thousand and one,
the year the Human Younome Project released its first full

(59:29):
draft of the Human DNA Map, right, and that changed everything.
It gave scientists and law enforcement the tool to analyze
partial DNA samples with a precision that simply didn't exist before.
So since two thousand and one, i'd say two thousand
and one was the year DNA moved from the.

Speaker 4 (59:44):
Lab to the streets.

Speaker 6 (59:47):
It turned cold cases into solvable cases, victims into identities,
and suspicion into scientifically backed proof. And Kathy really dives
into how all this has changed. She explains, how, you know,
the advancements and fingerprint technology and DNA databases like COTIS,
you know, the combined DNA index system that we're seeing

(01:00:07):
justice catch up with with time. I'd say COTIS alone
has assisted over half a million, you know, investigations, many
involving decades old evidence. And it's a reminder of science
can give families something they haven't had in a long time.

Speaker 4 (01:00:23):
Which is hope. Right.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
I love that you have such a wide range of
cases that you talk about, and you look into some
that are totally cold and been cold for decades and
some that have gone to trial or like that are
completely closed, but that there's doubts about. Right, Like the
episode led by detectives Zachary Scott, What can you tell
us about that?

Speaker 5 (01:00:44):
Well?

Speaker 6 (01:00:44):
With Zachary Scott is very interesting because this was a
gentleman that lived in Brazil and this guy was a
wife abuser. There's evidence of it to the point where
he shot his wife. There's thoughts that his wife, the
family member put a hit out on him. He disappeared
for a while. But the tie with Brazil. In South

(01:01:05):
Florida was really fascinating.

Speaker 4 (01:01:08):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:01:09):
There was two women murdered here in two different jurisdictions
in South Florida, one in Broward County and that's where
detective Zachary Scott works, and another one in the City
of Miami where I'm a reserve City of Miami police officer.

Speaker 4 (01:01:19):
But there were similarities in the case.

Speaker 6 (01:01:21):
They had found the bodies, they had DNA, but they
couldn't match it to anybody. Make a short story long,
This was fascinating this whole episode because this detective was
able to connect the dots between his officers in Broward County.
The police officers in the city of Miami and law
enforcement in Brazil get the Brazilian.

Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
Authorities to cooperate for the first time in history.

Speaker 6 (01:01:45):
They thought this man had faked his death when they
thought that this was the man, but they needed his
DNA to confirm that the match on the two women
in Florida. They actually got the DNA from his daughter,
who cooperated with the Brazilian authorities. It was fascinating and
he goes into this whole investigation that spanned countries in
decades before finally unveiling and being able to really pin

(01:02:08):
these two murders on this woman. It's fascinating to get
this detective to open up and tell me. When I
asked him, do you think there were more women that
were murdered? I said, He says absolutely. He was addicted
to street workers. It was confirmed that these women in
Florida were sex workers. The argument that he got into
his wife where he shot her in Brazil was over

(01:02:29):
his involvement with prostitutes.

Speaker 3 (01:02:33):
Coming up more with the award winning hosts of Cold
Case Files Miami Enrique Santos, keep it right here True
Crime Tonight.

Speaker 7 (01:02:51):
This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong here with
crime analyst Body move in. We are back with award
winning host of Cold Case Files Miami, Enrique Santo's Welcome
back in Rique.

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):
Thank you so much for being here and for all
the incredible work you're doing with Cold Case Files Miami.
I mean it's hard enough to work with agencies in
other counties, yes, let alone another country. I mean, that's
pretty that's pretty great at him that he was able
to pull that off.

Speaker 6 (01:03:21):
It gets more fascinating because he was able to use
case law to prove to Brazil a case that had
happened just prior, or a couple of years prior, where
they actually, for the first time ever, the court system
in Cuba convicted somebody for a crime that happened in
the United States. So that's set precedent. There was case law.

(01:03:44):
They used that as an example, and they used that
to convince the Brazilian authorities to cooperate. It truly fascinating.

Speaker 7 (01:03:50):
Yeah, it really was a very very cool listen and
it almost felt like like you're eavesdropping on the two
of you sort of talking it out. It was a
different and it was a different vibe slightly than the
other episodes in which I've really enjoyed sort of Buddy
and I were talking about earlier, just the you're on

(01:04:10):
a ride with all.

Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
Of these episodes.

Speaker 4 (01:04:13):
Thank you, Courtney.

Speaker 7 (01:04:15):
What is kind of a two part question, how do
you choose your cases?

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
And also what's one case that's really sort of really
stuck with you?

Speaker 6 (01:04:25):
So in the selection of these cases has been really
organic kind of how they come about. I have family members,
lifetime friends, ex coworkers, still partners on the police department
who are tied to a lot of these cases. A
lot of that, there's a lot of them. There's information
where they might have leads, so and we don't want

(01:04:49):
to ruin anything. They don't want to ruin a case
or the chances of where they're you know, they're right
on the tail of somebody, and so we don't want
to talk about it because it's almost right at the
you know, the borderline of getting of getting solved. So
that really dictated of how much information of unsolved cases
we were to put out. And then I said to
the team, and collectively we said, why don't we talk

(01:05:10):
about the success story too? Not just what I mean
this podcast series would be successful if we're able to
bring closure to some of these families. Number One, humanize
these people and they remind people that what the toll
is of all this violence, and its fascinating, heartbreaking, by
the same time inspiring to hear these family members destroyed,

(01:05:33):
their lives totally shattered, how they've put themselves together, and
how many of them are now helping other families move
forward through the organizations, through other support groups, even just
telling their story to me and participating in this podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Body Moven
and we are joined tonight by the award winning host
of Cold Case Files Miami, Enrique Santos. Want to hear
from you, hit us up on the talkbacks on the
iHeartRadio app. You know, it's one thing, that's one thing
I really struggle with, is I get to attach to

(01:06:09):
people and their story. How do you balance this emotional
weight of all these stories that you're covering while still
doing your job as a journalist and storyteller. How do
you how do you manage because I'm personally struggling.

Speaker 6 (01:06:22):
Well, I let me tell you there's no manual right
for this, and you've got experiences because you've done You've
done great work. And congrats on your series on on
Netflix for doing what's right.

Speaker 4 (01:06:37):
Look how much you stirred up a lot, but you.

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):
Did it for the right reasons, right if you have
a good heart I think you know, and good intentions. Right,
But don't you feel like do you do? You struggle
with the emotional toll because you are taking on a
big like when somebody is full of hope. Yeah, and
you're you know, taking that on. That's a that's a
big burden for your self for sure.

Speaker 6 (01:07:01):
As cops, you know, you're training the police academy to
stay detached. I would say arms distance when you're when
you're when you're involved in these cases, don't you know?
But when you're telling the story of someone like Brian her,
you can't help but feel it. It's real. I mean
you're listening to their mother. It's the story and of
the sister and how they had to continue on going

(01:07:22):
the life, their life goes on and so they have
to celebrate Christmas the same week that they're burying their son.
There there there's you know, there these there are these
cases that there you feel the true weight of it
and the real human loss, and I've learned to compartmentalize.
I'd say the best I can, but but I won't
pretend it doesn't take a toll. It absolutely takes a toll.
And that in the one episode where we dive into

(01:07:44):
there's one where we dive into the emotional cost for
first responders, episode five with Tangilias Sears, and we touch
on this and the truth is, listen, LA enforcement has
some of the highest suicide and alcoholism rates any profession.
More officers, as a matter of fact, die die by
suicide than in the line of duty. You would think

(01:08:04):
it's different right now with so much police officers right now,
but yeah, more officers die in the United States by
suicide than in the line of duty.

Speaker 4 (01:08:12):
And that the numbers prove that.

Speaker 6 (01:08:13):
And that's why I supported organizations like Bleeding Blue. These
are two Miami Dade County sheriffs and deputies. They're brothers,
friends of mine, and they formed this nonprofit. They're doing
this amazing work organizing peer support groups, counseling resources, and
conferences to help first responders. When I graduated the Police
Academy when I was nineteen, there was a block on

(01:08:38):
you know, a mental health. The psyche is there if
you need to talk to them after a shooting or
after a critical incident. But the truth of it is
that not too many people follow up on that.

Speaker 4 (01:08:47):
It was at that.

Speaker 6 (01:08:49):
Time kind of looked down upon, not just for police,
but also for fire and rescue first responders.

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
You know, it seems like weaker or something like that.
They think like, oh, something's wrong with him or her,
like they need psych like they're weak, they're not strong
as unfortunately, sendings to them. Oh that's horrible. I think
that's a society thing though too. I think society was
doing all that unfortunately.

Speaker 6 (01:09:15):
Yeah, and then think also if you're if you're a
police officer and you're just seen a traumatic event, it's
not the nine typical nine to five job right.

Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
Right where you know, Hey, honey, how was how was
work today?

Speaker 6 (01:09:24):
Oh? So and so got a new promotion and I
got a new office and everything went fine. No, I
just a police officer comes home, you know, they take
their bulletproof vest off and hang up their duty belt,
and they're trying to not remember that person that they
did CPR on, that that passed away, the kid that
they pulled out of a pool, that they didn't make it.
You know, someone that was stabbed to death, or a
gunshot victim, or somebody you know in real bad shape

(01:09:48):
in a car accident. These are all real emotions. So
we need more of these conversations and like the ones
we're having right now, to explain that these are these
are real traumas, and that the first responders have a
very very they carry a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
Yeah, they did well, and just like victims are real
people and we need to humanize them, so are the cops, right,
the cops that are experiencing this. I just watched a
body cam footage of I think it was out of Baltimore,
and it was a couple of cops pulled this woman
over and in her trunk in a suitcase for two children.
And when they discovered this, these cops broke down. I

(01:10:25):
mean it was and they were very upset, and it
really humanized I don't know why I didn't think about
cops as being, you know, having these kinds of problems,
but they were horrified and so sad. They were babies,
you know, And so I mean it is important to
remember that police officers and law enforcement and first responders

(01:10:46):
are human and they have to witness the most horrific
thing on the worst day possible for someone, and we
need to be a little bit nicer to cops, even
though I don't want to be to.

Speaker 4 (01:10:58):
The nice ones.

Speaker 6 (01:10:58):
We do will say and be totally transparent and honest
that you know, there's people that shouldn't be wearing their.

Speaker 3 (01:11:04):
Right it's in every profession, right, Like in every profession,
people probably shouldn't be doing those jobs. But in the
case of like cops, though, they wield a lot of power,
so there's a bad power dynamic with those bad people.
But hopefully those are a farm few between.

Speaker 6 (01:11:20):
They are majority of officer men and women in the
United States. Are they do it for the right reasons?
I agree, and they're true professionals.

Speaker 7 (01:11:30):
And I think just off of what you said, body
of being, you know, surprised to see and break down.
I think it is also because so many of us,
myself included, you know, we grew up and it's almost
like policemen when women.

Speaker 3 (01:11:45):
Fire men and women.

Speaker 7 (01:11:46):
Are superheroes and you just hold them in that and
then you think, you know, you don't actually think of, oh,
these are human beings and they need to actually deal
with these emotions as well, so, Enrique, I believe you've
called Cold Case Files Miami a mission.

Speaker 4 (01:12:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:12:03):
Is there an impact that you hope this podcast has?

Speaker 4 (01:12:08):
For sure?

Speaker 6 (01:12:09):
Again, listen, if we can solve just on one cold
case or get one step closer to justice, I feel
like it was all worth it. But beyond solving crimes,
I hope that this podcast helps. Like we just spoke
about humanizing the victims, humanizing the players that are involved,
that the public understands that police officers want these things,
these cases solve just as much as the victims do,

(01:12:32):
and it's very frustrating for them too when they hit,
you know, legal crossroads, when they hit a brick wall,
when they don't get people to cooperate for whatever the
reasons are. And there are many reasons why people won't
come forward and don't want to cooperate, But people like
Joyce sapin episode four, a community leader like Lauren's Webb
again in episode two, who just just begun rebuilding his life,

(01:12:57):
or like the three women murdered in the early two
thousands stories Detective Zachary Scott that we spoke about and
that he helped us revisit in episode six, they were
more than victims. These were daughters, neighbors, professional students, people
just like you and I, right like us, and their
stories deserve to be heard, remembered, and these victims deserve

(01:13:19):
to be to be honored. So I feel that we're
honoring them in telling their stories.

Speaker 3 (01:13:24):
Yeah, I mean, as a listener, I couldn't agree more. Absolutely.

Speaker 7 (01:13:29):
You know, it feels important what you're talking about in
the stories you're telling.

Speaker 6 (01:13:35):
And I'm proud. I don't know if this happens to you,
to you do. Two, when you listen to your podcast,
you don't listen, Okay, you sound like me and my
radio show.

Speaker 4 (01:13:44):
I try not to listen.

Speaker 6 (01:13:44):
I don't like listening to my voice, and I get
really picky, and then why would Yeah, so I overthink things.
But when I listened to this final product, I've actually
the first one, of course I heard, was was episode
one with Brian Herr. But I was so proud of
of our team at iHeart and a School of Humans
because they really transported. They did it such an excellent job,

(01:14:08):
mixing in the stories and investigating and helping me find
the victims, family members and the detectives involved.

Speaker 4 (01:14:16):
They did a phenomenal job. I'm proud of the work
that we've done.

Speaker 3 (01:14:21):
You should be. I mean, like you said, are very
well rounded. Even just one is monumental and a closure
for this family. Like you said, I think I've used
this term before too. They're living in suspended animation, like
their life is completely on hold. Right. I had a
cousin that went missing for twenty one years, and you know,
my aunt was one hundred percent suspended animation her whole life,

(01:14:45):
well not her whole life, but a big portion of
her life.

Speaker 4 (01:14:48):
How'd she deal with that?

Speaker 3 (01:14:49):
She drank? But yeah, I mean it's you know, she's
gone now, bless her, but you know it's horrific. So
just just one family and that in the a butterfly
effect that has, you know, outward to you know, extended
family and even coworkers and friends and neighbors. You're changing

(01:15:11):
so many lives by just solving one of those cases.
So hats off to you. I mean that, I really.

Speaker 4 (01:15:16):
Thank you, thank you, thank you know what.

Speaker 6 (01:15:18):
To me, I say, hats off to the investigators, to
the family who keeps knocking on doors, and to all
the people that that opened up and that shared their
their stories of their their loved ones with us.

Speaker 3 (01:15:29):
Wow, Enrica. What can listeners do if they recognize something?

Speaker 7 (01:15:33):
If they have information about a featured case in your podcast?

Speaker 3 (01:15:37):
What's actionable?

Speaker 6 (01:15:38):
Well, if something you hear in the podcast, you know sparks,
sparks some memory, or you know someone who might have
seen something or say something, say something I would say,
you know, speak up, contact your local police department, or
if you prefer to stay anonymous, you can reach out
to crime stoppers. There's the national hotline one eight sixty

(01:15:58):
six four seven one tip where you can visit crime
Stoppers three oh five dot com.

Speaker 4 (01:16:04):
No details too small?

Speaker 6 (01:16:06):
Something you think that is totally insignificant, not important, could
be that one missing piece that brings me.

Speaker 3 (01:16:11):
And it might be just such a small detail that
ties that loop. Right. I always tell people the details,
the devils in the details, The details matter. The tiniest,
most insignificant thing can make that makes sense, That that
tip you got ten years ago makes sense.

Speaker 6 (01:16:28):
And that one little tip could bring peace to a family,
right that's been waiting far too long.

Speaker 3 (01:16:33):
Right, Wow, well, thank you so much, Thank you.

Speaker 7 (01:16:37):
Absolutely anything else, Enrique. We've held you hostage and wes
your time. But is there anything else? Listeners?

Speaker 3 (01:16:45):
Sho know where to find you, where to listen to you, anything.

Speaker 6 (01:16:49):
Absolutely, thanks again, congratulations on true crime Tonight.

Speaker 4 (01:16:53):
I'm a fan.

Speaker 6 (01:16:54):
I host a nationally syndicated Spanish show out of Miami
across the country. We broadcast from two ninety four point
nine FM in Miami. I also host On the Move
with Drique Santos that runs nationally on iHeartRadio from coast
to coast on Saturday evenings. I'm probably hosting Miami Cold
Case Files. I've got a little bit of backlash, like

(01:17:15):
you're giving Miami a bad light with this podcast. Miami
isn't just beaches in nightlife. We're a lot of fun
Miami and the three h five is home to me.
I love it. It's a Miami is a city of secrets,
cultures colliding, and the stories buried beneath the heat. Cold
Case Files Miami, we were digging deep into the side
of Miami. You don't see your coworker post it on

(01:17:36):
Instagram or on TikTok and bikini on the on the
beach sipping Pinacola.

Speaker 4 (01:17:42):
But these are true stories.

Speaker 6 (01:17:43):
Involving true people, and hopefully we're able to bring some
closure to much needed closure to these families that there's family.
Their lives have been turned upside down by no choice
of theirs, by these violent, horrific events.

Speaker 3 (01:17:56):
I'm so honored to meet you, like for real, I'm
not even the same, so honored. Thank you so much
for being here and for all the incredible work you're
doing with Cold Case Files Miami. You can listen to
the podcast wherever you get your shows, and if you
have info on a case, don't hesitate to speak up,
keep it here on True Crime Tonight. Be safe and
be well and have a good one. Thank you, good night,

(01:18:18):
good night.

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