Diddy’s Shocking Legal Move and Epstein Files Near Public Release

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
From the studio who brought you the piked in Masaker
and murder one oh one.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
This is in Cells. I am a loser, but also woman.
Know whatn't Damien either.

Speaker 1 (00:11):
From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
I can't have you girls, I will destroy you.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
A kind of subculture, a hidden world of resentment, cynicism,
anger against women.

Speaker 4 (00:26):
This is a wake up call for how we think
about manhood.

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A seed of loneliness explodes.

Speaker 5 (00:34):
I just hate myself.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me,
but I will punish you all for it. That was
the point where I realized I can't help him. He
doesn't want it. At a deadly tipping point. In Cells
will be added to the Terrorism Guide.

Speaker 6 (00:50):
Please say a driver intentionally drove into a crowd, killing
ten people.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
I just told my husband I know she's dead.

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Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which
I will have my revenge.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
This is in Cells.

Speaker 7 (01:08):
How does it feel if you could just drop that
any minute and nobody will even notice.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Listen to season one of In Cells starting September twenty
fourth on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
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Speaker 4 (01:22):
This program features the individual opinions of the host, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 8 (01:41):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Thursday, September twenty fifth. I'm
Stephanie Leidecker and I head up KT Studios, where we
make true crime podcasts like In Cells out now and
The Idaho Massacre season three also out now. Please download
on your iHeartRadio app. And I get to be here

(02:03):
every single night with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven, who
are also on the podcast, So please check it out.
Because guys, we have a stack knight of headlines. This
day has been wild in the news. There is so
much going on that we again we have to fast
talk because we're literally afraid to not get through it all. Listen,

(02:24):
Diddy back in court after all this time, ahead of sentencing.
He has something to say and his defense attorneys are
taking a whole new spin on this. We also have
updates in the very tragic celestiev Us case. Again, no
arrests have been made. Why was this young woman found

(02:44):
in the trunk of a tesla. Licensed and marriage therapist
Jess Kaplin is going to be finally with us again.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Jess knows best.

Speaker 8 (02:54):
She has said to us many times that you know,
every Thursday cannot happen. So we have dragged her back
in because because it's been a really hard time. I
think we can all agree we've all seen a lot
in the news lately, and finding some tools to be
able to deal with that is is kind of the
name of the game. So later in the show, Jess
will be joining us, and also Benjamin Johnson, the president

(03:14):
of the US Marshall's Museum, will.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Also be joining us.

Speaker 8 (03:18):
Heroes at work and boy the work they have done,
even just recently in the Travis Decker case, and also
those Epstein files. Will they be released soon? Big win
today and Barry Morphew. I mean we've been following this
case since day one. Body, it is so close to
your heart. Remember, he was the man accused of murdering

(03:39):
his wife. He has been released, he has posted bail
and is out until further notice. So so much to
unpack there. I'm not even sure where to begin. Courtney Armstrong,
please tell us, Okay, let's start with Diddy.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
So this was interesting. This was an interesting day in court.
Sean Di Diy Coombs appeared in a federal court room
today and his attorneys made a final attempt. I mean, really,
this has been so many times they have tried to
get charges off. So it's a final attempt to overturn
his Man Act convictions. Or they're wondering if they can

(04:16):
get a retrial ahead of his October third sentencing. So
that was a surprising ask to me. A retrial, Yeah, so.

Speaker 5 (04:25):
I can't imagine that they would have a retrial.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
I don't either, but listen, so Colmbs, he of course
was arrested back in September of last year, and he
was charged with a lot of crimes, a lot of
federal crimes, sex trafficking, racketeering, prostitution related offenses.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
These all were under the Man Act.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
He was acquitted of the most serious charges, but in
July of this year, he was convicted of two counts
and those related to transporting individuals for prostitution, and for
that he is still incarcerated. So today his legal team
asked Judge Sumeranian to overturn the prostitution related conviction or

(05:05):
again grant a new trial, and the defense attorney Alexandra Sapiro,
argued that Colmbs was simply a voyeur and a consumer
and not a pimp or a profiteer. And that's the
big distinction that they're making. What they're arguing is that
therefore he is not liable under the Man Act. Shapiro
went on to call the Man Act racist and sexist

(05:27):
and said it had been misapplied to Colmes, who allegedly
had no financial motive. So we dug into this a
little bit, body, can you enlighten us a little bit
on the Man Act.

Speaker 9 (05:38):
I was like, really surprised by this racial thing in
the Man Act because I had no idea what that meant, right,
and neither did any of us, so I had to
look it up. Well, apparently this Man Act was passed
in nineteen ten, and it kind of came out of
this moral panic about white slavery. In quotes is what
they're what they're saying. It was a moral crusade. Do

(06:00):
you guys remember satanic panic?

Speaker 2 (06:02):
Sure? Is that right?

Speaker 9 (06:05):
It's kind of like that, But it applies to this
moral panic that this crusade that claimed white women were
being kidnapped and forced into prostitution, often you know, initiated
by immigrants or black men. So on its face, yeah,
the Man Act, Holy crap, it seems pretty racist. But

(06:25):
it did evolve and it was changed in the seventies
to give it more modern tones. Okay, And the modern
portion of it is that, you know, there doesn't have
to be any race involved, there doesn't have to be
any even any profits. It could just be you know,
for the transportation of illegal activities. So I think that's

(06:46):
what the prosecution is going to counter with.

Speaker 8 (06:49):
Which is fascinating because again this is a new ad
in a different time and dis reiterate where we're talking about. Also,
if you go back in time, and the real accusation
is that Sean Puffy Combs or Diddy was hiring escorts
or sex workers from different states to come to his home.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Whatever said home this was.

Speaker 8 (07:10):
It could be Miami, it could be in a Los Angeles,
who knows, and that once there, these women were sort
of put into very compromising, difficult situations.

Speaker 9 (07:19):
Go ahead, right, So I just want to follow up
really quickly with this modern application because I want to
read directly, because I want to be really clear. Okay,
definitely today most Man Act prosecutions involve sex trafficking, coercion,
or prostitution rings where profit is present. Okay, so that's
a big deal, right Where profit is present, but legally

(07:42):
profit is not an element. Someone can still be charged
and prosecuted and convicted if they knowingly transport someone for
illegal sexual activity, regardless of money. In the bottom line
is you don't have the profit. What matters is the
purpose of the transportation. If it's for prostitution, unlawful sexual activity,

(08:03):
or trafficking, that's enough.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
So I feel like, yeah, this will come down to
whether the judge is sort of a letter of the
law or a spirit of the law judge, right.

Speaker 5 (08:14):
I think that's probably right. I got to jump in.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
I have to jump in.

Speaker 8 (08:17):
I'm it's crazy making because I feel like we're again
and we've talked a lot about the technicalities of sentencing,
and it's all really important and we have to unpack it.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
I think at the core what we're missing here.

Speaker 8 (08:29):
Is that Diddy, whether it was a sex worker, whether
it was his ex girlfriend, whether it was his assistant,
whether it was anybody in the orbit of ditty Land,
which there was a real orbit, he was paying people
to do things to get him drugs to By the way,
now he's sober, so you know, an acknowledgment worthy of

(08:50):
noting prison will do that to you, right fourteen months
behind bars might sober you. Up here we are, however,
here he is either kind of organizing a little pornographic play,
if you will. That's what the freakofs were. He was
organizing freakofs at high luxury hotels, staying there for days.

(09:12):
It was so drenched with oil and semen and blood
that they had to actually close the rooms for service,
just to reiterate, because I don't want us to lose
the actual story of the time. And then he would
be sitting in a corner with a video camera or
I think it was literally like a camquarder of yesteryear

(09:33):
as reported reported, or some sort of a camera and
his ex girlfriend or sex workers PASSI Ventura had to
you know, really attest to some of this on the
stand while nine months pregnant, not only in front of
her friends and her family and her you know, coworkers

(09:54):
and musical icons the world, and basically go to these
freakoff pornaography plays, which is now I think and correct
me if I'm wrong.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
At the root of this, were those consensual?

Speaker 8 (10:07):
Was that maybe the Man Act or was that non
consensual or My biggest issue is who cares. I don't
care if it's your ex, if it's a sex worker,
if it's somebody who is there on their own fruition.
At first, the idea that he was taping things against
people's knowledge and then using it as blackmail against them,

(10:27):
their careers, their families, their mothers, for power and coercion,
that is my problem. I think that's all of our problems.
I don't care what you do behind closed doors. Have
as many freak offs as you want. If it is
consensual and safe and everyone's down, that is fine. But
this was not that we heard testimony after testimony bruises

(10:49):
people that were being held in coerce against their will.
I should say, even if they had will in the
beginning and three days later we're life, please let me out.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
He would not.

Speaker 9 (11:01):
And to your point, though the Man Act doesn't even
require a coersion, you.

Speaker 5 (11:05):
Know exactly you know? So I mean, I don't know
what this is.

Speaker 8 (11:09):
Well, we're doing a little play of pornography, so that
implies like, hey, listen, I'm not pimp. I'm not distributing
this little play, okay. Yeah, And I'm like I'm populating
it with my girlfriends or populating it with sex workers
or people that work in my circle. Okay, do you boo? No, No,
that's not what's happening. There's actual violence at hand. There's

(11:33):
drugs being incorporated into the mix, whether they like it
or not.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Violence and blackmail, and that is the problem.

Speaker 8 (11:40):
If that tape is going to be used and threatened
against you to sell to your mom or to send
to your mom to get her fired from her job,
as in Cassie Ventura's testimony his ex girlfriend nine months pregnant,
that's a different thing. I don't even know what the
apples and oranges are here, And if you do, if
anyone listens, could kind of break that down, please eight

(12:02):
eight eight three one crime, Join us live.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
I might be getting it wrong, but I feel like we're.

Speaker 8 (12:07):
Getting lost in the sauce in technicalities and not really
focus on the right thing. And maybe that's because the
charges were incorrect in the first place.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Well exactly, And the prosecutors are laying out a lot
of what you said, and they argue that the jury's
verdict absolutely should stand. You know, when they point to
the fact that there was violent conduct, there was drug
use tied to these sexual encounters, so that that is
their argument. There was no ruling from the judge, by

(12:37):
the way, so yeah, they did not rule and said
that they would issue a decision very shortly ahead of
the scheduled October third sentencing, which ps, it's.

Speaker 8 (12:48):
Going to be before, it's going to be tomorrow. I
think again, I'm guessing, but I've learned this here, so just.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
Play with me.

Speaker 8 (12:56):
This is play along amongst us checking guys, let's play
Fridays always hear is a pretty loose or if you
want to release something really big in the press, it
seems like the pattern is release it on Friday, because
people have the weekend to simmer down, and it's a
very specific time in the world right now and in
the country right now, we're all suffering and recovering from

(13:18):
watching a live assassination. Suddenly, comparatively, Diddy maybe seems smaller, right,
And I worry about that because let's remember, this is
somebody who was using his power in influence and control
as an abuse of power. That is at its core
the story here. It's not a he said, she said,

(13:39):
or you know, technicality on the law from nineteen oh two.
I know that's not what's happening.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Except that it is. No, except that it is. You know,
it's yes, that letter of the law. That's right.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
And so you know what is he is charged with
are the charges and what the jury decided. They decided, unless,
of course, the judge chooses to overturn or give a retrial,
which seems so unlikely.

Speaker 8 (14:06):
He's very measured, and he's very measured, and he's done
a really great job as a judge. I think we
all agree, right, he's been really low key, very clear,
he's been very fair.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
I think he's been very responsive.

Speaker 9 (14:19):
Remember all the jury problems he had to deal with.
Although that's right, body, Young Miami. He did a great job.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
He did.

Speaker 8 (14:27):
He did really you remember, Young Miami at one point
was going to testify and then that went away. And
then on behalf of Shandecombe's many people came forward and
wrote letters on his behalf, you know, urging the judge
to release him like now, as opposed to tomorrow or tuesday
or in four years. And you know some of those

(14:48):
were his children, his mother, Janice Combs, who's you know,
eighty two or eighty three years old who wants to
have her son home. He is claiming to be sober
and has been in very difficult conditions with you know,
a very crappy prison. I think by all accounts, that's
not a great spot to be in. So there's you know,
maggots in the food, and it's loud and uncomfortable, and

(15:10):
he's sleeping on a small bed. But like, this is
a guy that was like getting served on a gold
tray anything he wanted at any time, because his little
network kind of did whatever he said. And that was
a very they never said no. Remember we heard a
lot of testimony.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, he had assistants who you know carried his was
that the Louis Vuitton bag filled with all his special yes,
drugs were whatever they needs.

Speaker 5 (15:38):
Were the assistant that got like kidnapped.

Speaker 8 (15:41):
Yeah, and how about the one that got kidnaped three
days oh yeah, and put on a lie detector test.
How about de Yancey Nash who claimed to have been
violently strangled, also just dropped a civil lawsuit Don Richard,
remember also from Dannady Kane said that he attempted to
hit Cassie his ex girlfriend with a skillet because she
didn't listen to him immediately. You know, Steventura, we saw
that video on CNN. We saw her get beaten to

(16:04):
the flore and we saw that he got away with
it because he paid somebody off fifty grand, one hundred grand,
fifty one hundred grand total.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Can I just remember the guy's name.

Speaker 8 (16:13):
His first name is Israel. His last name is something.
We'll find it during the break. He is the hero
of this story. He is the security guy at that
hotel that did not take the bribe from Diddy R.
He testified against him and actually stepped in when Cassie
was being beaten.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
That should be a hero, Israel may Ylores. So let's
hear it from him. Well.

Speaker 9 (16:35):
When we come back, Licensed therapist Jessica Caplan joins us
to tackle a really big question, how do we stay
sane when all these headlines feel insane? Stick with us
True Friend Tonight.

Speaker 8 (16:55):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker. I'm here, of
course with Courtney Armstrong and body Moven and listen. It
has been a very heavy time and I know I
am not alone in this. We have talked about this
off camera. We've honestly it's been I got a little
like choked up in my car for no reason yesterday,

(17:16):
and listen, I think for good reason. We've all experienced
a lot of horror recently. I mean two weeks ago,
we literally saw Charlie Kirk murdered on TV and assassinated live.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
I wish I hadn't seen it.

Speaker 8 (17:31):
My heart so deeply goes out to his family and
his children and anybody in his circle. And as someone
who doesn't know him, thought it was too much. And honestly,
I wasn't even familiar with Charlie Kirk until this happened.
And I don't know, a piece of my DNA has changed.
And I feel like we've all collectively almost like seen

(17:53):
too much. You know, it's a lot, and I think
it's therefore heightened, and I personally am not totally sure
what to do with that. And we figured we were
bringing our very favorite marriage and the family therapist, Jessica Kaplan,
who you know, we all humbly believe is kind of
the answer to all great things, just knows best to

(18:14):
kind of get us a little grounded maybe give us
a little tools because honestly, I think it's in the
air right now and I don't know how to shake
it off.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
And I don't know if we're ining my notes.

Speaker 5 (18:25):
I'm taking notes.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah, I'm gonna get mine now too. Yes, we all
have questions.

Speaker 8 (18:30):
And by the way, if anybody wants to say ask
Jessica a question, please call us live eight at eight
three one crime, leave us a talkback on the iHeartRadio app.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
It's free.

Speaker 8 (18:40):
Just download the app, push the button in the right
hand corner and boom, you're on the show. Or you
can always hit us up on our socials because you're
the answer jess this week.

Speaker 10 (18:49):
Know, it's been a really hard week or two for
all of us. Yes, it's been so intense, and it
is very, very easy to feel incredibly overwhelmed with the
amount of tragedy that we see in the news now

(19:09):
on a daily basis. And I think for some of
us we start to become desensitized to it. It's like
you're either becoming desensitized to it or your system is nervous,
system is just shutting down. It puts us in a
position of like fight or flight. Some of us, Yeah,

(19:32):
we feel ourselves either completely shutting down or feeling like
we're in our rectilian brain and we are operating all
day long in this heightened state of feeling a persu
threat almost, and that leads to a cortisol dump in

(19:54):
our system that makes us overwhelmed, exhausted. It impacts our mood,
it impacts our bioorrhythms, our circadium rhythms, and it's really
serious and it can take a toll. So I think
it's very important that we try to take care of
ourselves as best we can right now. So I thought

(20:16):
maybe I could share a little bit about, oh please,
how we might be able to do that.

Speaker 8 (20:21):
It's almost like I feel this regulated, Like I don't
know how to say that, but I feel a little
disregulated from my sleep. Yes, and imagine you know, we
have even like our sweet beautiful Whitney on our team
and so producer, people who have experienced with violence, Like
it's very triggering also for anyone who's been a victim
of extreme violence.

Speaker 10 (20:40):
So yeah, that's also a very important point because you
have people who are just seeing these images or these
videos in the news or reading an article or listening
to a news program. However, you're consuming this information, and
some of us are feeling compassion and empathy for what

(21:05):
is happening. Just the regular person is doing that, and
then you have people who have also experienced trauma that
is adjacent to what they're consuming in the news, which
brings it to another level. I think that if you

(21:25):
consume some sort of triggering, disturbing image or you know,
news story, and you find yourself experiencing a strong emotional
reaction to it, it's important first to understand that this
is normal. There's nothing wrong with you because you're having

(21:46):
an intense emotional response. Our brains and our bodies are
not set up to withstand the intensity and the frequency
at which all of the is coming at us. So
that's something to keep in mind, is to just practice
some self compassion around This actually means I'm a living,

(22:08):
breathing human being with a heart that I'm having these
strong reactions, and this actually means that I'm okay.

Speaker 5 (22:18):
That's an important thing.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
That's so good.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, Jessica, do you have any tips for managing this
triggering news? So while we're in it, are there any Yeah,
just any tips for all of the experiences you're referencing.

Speaker 10 (22:33):
Yes, I can give you a few different ones, and
I just want to make a disclaimer that if you
notice that after consuming something triggering in the news, after
a few days, you're still feeling really affected by it,
or you notice that it's getting in the way of

(22:53):
just regular functioning in your daily life, or like we
were just talking about, it's triggering past trauma, then it's
time for you to probably seek some support by a
mental health professional, or if you already have a therapist,
just make sure that you're bringing this up in your
session with him or her and that you have a

(23:14):
safe space to process it and talk about it. So
that's really important. But for kind of the regular situation
that we all kind of find ourselves in with consuming
these triggering events in the news, the first, which I
already talked about, is just acknowledging your reaction. Try not
to dismiss it or minimize it or avoid it. Instead,

(23:37):
you want to just say to yourself, Wow, like I'm
feeling something from this, What is it? Am I angry?
Am I sad?

Speaker 3 (23:44):
Am?

Speaker 10 (23:44):
I having anxiety? Do I feel fear? See if you
can name what you're feeling without judgment and tell yourself
you know, it's understandable that I'm feeling this way. So
that's the first step, and then the next one, which
is really important because it's actually very empowering, is we
get to limit further exposure to these triggering images or stories.

(24:08):
No one is force feeding any of this to us.
We have agency in what we decide that we want
to consume.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
So you have to just.

Speaker 10 (24:18):
Have some self awareness and pay attention to how you're feeling.
And when you notice that you're feeling really like Stephanie said,
just regulated, you have to pay attention to that and
note that and say, Okay, I need to maybe stop
doom scrolling or once I see the scary image or
I read the scary news story, now am I looking

(24:39):
for similar content to consume? Like I become sort of
possessed and now I'm scrolling and seeking it out more
and more. Right, you have to touch yourself.

Speaker 8 (24:50):
Doing who doesn't do that? And by the way, it's like,
how do you stop it if it's on the news
and the news is on the background, You're getting ready
for work or whatever, and suddenly you see it's hard
to unsee it.

Speaker 10 (25:02):
Yeah, And that's I think also something that happened with
the Charlie Kirk murder is the minute that it happened.
People recorded it on their phones and then they immediately
post it to their TikTok or their social media and
within seconds, before anyone even has a chance to understand

(25:24):
fully what's happened, everyone is on their TikTok and it's
being fed to you, whether you want to see it
or not. I talked to so many people who said
they just opened up their TikTok and there it was,
the video of him being murdered, and there was no
protective mechanism in place for that. And that's kind of

(25:45):
where we are as a society, which is really troubling.
And I also think partially that's why this has resonated
with so many people is because it's very rare that
we see a video of the actual murder happening in
real time and it goes out to millions of people

(26:06):
all at once, like it did with him, which is
why I think this puts it kind of puts this
we're like breaking into like a new level here with.

Speaker 8 (26:16):
Exactly we were just saying this last night. And by
the way, if you want to jump in eight eight
eight three one cry and please join the conversation. It's critical.
Jessica's here to answer any questions. We're so so lovely,
We're so grateful you are, jess because you're such a
calming voice. But you know, Boddy and I were talking
about it last week and I'm like, you know what,
we can just shut it down. And the truth is

(26:38):
that's not accurate. There was no shutting that down. We
all want, didn't E.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
Get off guard?

Speaker 8 (26:42):
You're right, and I actually take it back, and like
we were force fed information without a trigger alert. Right,
So even for us, all of us we see autopsy reports.
We were adults and we know what our job is
and we can sort of organize some of these things
in our head, and you know, there's a time that
we're looking at things because it's very sacred and important.

Speaker 3 (27:03):
Right.

Speaker 8 (27:04):
But never have I, personally in my life seen somebody
be killed by the way Embodi's your documentary body don't
f with Kats. How many times have I said this?
I only just wish I didn't see the very couple
of minutes because I've never seen that before. Now this
is my second It changed a little part of me
and it's important because it you know, it triggers us

(27:26):
and it makes us feel but I don't know that
I like the feeling, and that is just I don't
know where to put it.

Speaker 10 (27:33):
Yes, and I think part of what so I think.
In those moments when we feel ourselves having this visceral
and emotional response to something really disturbing, it's important to
remind ourselves that even though that happened or is happening,

(27:54):
that where we are in this moment is a safe
place that we are, and you need to affirm that.
You have to repeat it and think it to yourself
that I am safe, I am okay, I am here.

Speaker 8 (28:08):
That is there.

Speaker 10 (28:10):
If it's an image that you're seeing, whether it's an
image or a video, to understand that this is one
example at one image or one event that does not
represent what's likely or probable, and you have to also
remind yourself of that, and you can say something comforting

(28:34):
to yourself in those moments, I am safe in this moment.
I this feeling will pass, which is important to remind
yourself that any emotion that we're feeling is temporary, and
you ride it like a wave. You imagine that that
it's a wave and it's going to peak. And break

(28:55):
and dissipate, and to remind yourself that this intense emotion,
whether it's panic or high anxiety or a deep feeling
of fear, that if you remind yourself that it's temporary
and it will subside. That also helps. I think also
just simply saying right now, I am okay, Right now,

(29:18):
I am okay, that is important more than anything though,
in these moments when you're feeling disregulated, is to ground yourself.
So there's this idea in psychology around grounding, which basically
just means if you're disregulated, if your nervous system is
completely out of whack, you're in this fight or flight,

(29:39):
that you need to relax your nervous system again and
get yourself feeling calm. So there's some breathing exercises in
grounding techniques that I can share with you if you'd like.

Speaker 8 (29:50):
Woh, yeah, yes, I think we have to go to
break really well, so hold it, hold it, hold that
thought okay, But that sounds so good.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
And you mentioned a larger and this will also probably
be for after the break, you know, of anxiety of dysregulation,
and maybe after the break, what if it's just deep
sadness for you know, the school shootings that seem to
happen twice, and it's just.

Speaker 5 (30:14):
I seem to wallow. I seem I find myself walling.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah, just the sadness.

Speaker 5 (30:18):
Yeah yeah, And I think, yeah.

Speaker 9 (30:22):
Yeah, it's hard, and I think you have to have
a you have to have a small amount a little
bit of emotional intelligence, right, Jessica, to even understand that
you're going through these things.

Speaker 5 (30:32):
And that's hard to get to as well.

Speaker 9 (30:33):
Right, So it's please forgive yourself, give yourself grace, right,
That's kind of what I'm hearing.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
Give you grace.

Speaker 5 (30:41):
Remind yourself that you're okay, and that you're safe, and
that you're love right, and that it's normal and it's
normal and you're humans.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
A good thing. I'm just a good day.

Speaker 9 (30:51):
It's a good thing that you're empathetic with this and
you just watched a young man, a father of two,
get murdered. It's okay to be upset by this. It's
okay to be sad about it. I think that's important.

Speaker 8 (31:03):
Listen, Jessica Kaplan's been in this for twenty five years.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
First, by the way, she looks like she's.

Speaker 8 (31:08):
Twenty, but she's been in it for a bit, right, so,
seeing clients and really kind of probably purposefully and very
intentionally helping us really try to ground ourselves during these.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
Very strange times.

Speaker 8 (31:22):
And you know, we've been lamenting behind the scenes and
sort of in between shows of Wow, it's like the
air feels so thick right now and it.

Speaker 5 (31:30):
Just feels heavy.

Speaker 8 (31:30):
Yeah, it feels heavy, and we get it. We just
witness so much and our hearts go out to the
Charlie Kirk family, et cetera. And then it's one after
the other, after the other, after or the other. It
just seems like there's a lot of violence in the air.
And one thing I noticed and just worth mentioning. Sometimes
I'll find myself getting like choked up in the car,
or like I want to weep in the car, and
I think the human instinct, I feel like I've learned

(31:53):
this from Jessica Kaplan instinct tells us like, well, that
must mean that I.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
Hate how my pain answer tighter.

Speaker 8 (32:00):
That must mean that I hate this person in my life,
or that must mean I have to make a change.
I feel so much right now that something in my
actual life might be really bad, when in reality, we're
just feeling a lot right now, and maybe we don't
have to assign it to something, you know.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
I feel like even my girlfriend.

Speaker 8 (32:17):
Today is like, and he did this, and he did that,
which was not what she was upset about. She's upset
that she witnessed somebody get murdered on television and didn't
have the tools to deal with it, and suddenly her
relationship was taken the hit, you know what I mean,
Like we display some of our anxiety or our feelings
of dysregulation. I think, as it has, it has to

(32:37):
go somewhere, and if you know, you don't get to
the gym, or I mean, who gets to the gym,
I'm not one of them.

Speaker 10 (32:45):
Of an analogy I use sometimes with my clients who
have pushed their feelings down and they're trying to avoid
their feelings exactly they're guilty. They're guilty oftentimes comes with
a fear of how painful it really would be to
allow your law emotion to come up. That we almost

(33:09):
feel like we wouldn't be able to survive it because
it's just so painful and uncomfortable, so we push it down.
But what happens is kind of like when you're in
the pool with a beach ball and you try to
push the beach ball into the water. What happens like
you push it down in front of you, and then
it pops up behind you.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
Know.

Speaker 10 (33:28):
So that's the same thing with emotions that we don't
allow ourselves to feel and process, is we push them
down and then they pop up in another area of
our life in a different way, and we don't necessarily
make the connection. But it's part of not feeling and

(33:50):
not processing it. At some point, it's going to pop
up in some area of your life and read havoc
in that area if you don't confronted and deal with
it if you can in real time. And the beautiful
thing about the human experiences, we really can handle these intense,

(34:12):
big emotions. We are built to handle these intense, big emotions.
And sometimes just talking about how you're feeling, whether it's
with a mental health professional or with your friend or
with a family member, just saying the words out loud
often hunt sometimes just takes away the intensity of the emotion.

(34:37):
When we're in our head all the time and we're
thinking but not sharing the intensity of what we're thinking
and feeling built so we just need a little it's
an outlet. So finding someone that you trust to just
share your thoughts and feelings with is a great place
to start. But if you are allowing yourself to feel

(35:00):
and process some of these difficult emotions and you are
feeling that the intensity is overwhelming you, that are grounding
techniques that you cant and so the idea with that
is to calm your nervous system, bring yourself back into
your body and into the present moment. That's the goal

(35:22):
because when we're panicked, we are not in our bodies.
We are we're not in the present moment, and we're
in our head and our thoughts are triggering the cycle
of panic. So if you can figure out ways to
get yourself back in your body in the present moment,
it helps reduce those feelings of anxiety and panic. So

(35:45):
the idea is to try and do things that make
you feel sensations again, so quick easy ones are maybe
heard of. Some of these where if you have the
ability to just walk out your front door in your
bare feet and walk walk through a little bit of
grass in your yard, the feeling of the grass on
your feet, paying attention to that feeling is a grounding technique.

(36:10):
Splashing cold water on your face. Grabbing some ice out
of the ice tray in your freezer and just sucking
on a cube of ice will do that. Making yourself
a hot cup of tea and holding the hot mug
and feeling that the heat of the mug on your
hands also can bring you back into feeling physical sensation

(36:31):
and being in your body again. Do I have time
to just quickly explain one that's a little more.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
So.

Speaker 10 (36:40):
This is the five four three two one grounding technique.
So if you're feeling disregulated, and for some people who
really have experienced trauma in the past, and maybe some
of these images in the news, these news stories are
triggering past trauma, a little bit of the association can

(37:00):
start to happen, where the intensity of the emotion is
so strong that that people feel like they can't cope
or handle it, so they almost start to leave their
bodies right there. It's sort of like where you're no
longer in the room, or sometimes you can sort of
feel like you're outside yourself looking at yourself. In these moments,

(37:25):
it's really important to come to a grounding technique. So
this one is you just sit comfortably, you take a
deep breath and you're going to use your senses to
bring you back into your body and back into noticing
your environment. So the first one five is see, and

(37:45):
you're going to look around the room and you're just
going to name out loud five things that you see.
So for me, it's a coffee cup, my laptop, my hands,
the lamp, the painting on the wall. It's pretty self explanatory.
Take a moment to notice each one. Then you move
to four, which is feel, So you want to notice

(38:06):
four things that you can physically feel. I can feel
my feet on the floor, I can feel the texture
of my sweatshirt, I can feel the phone in my hand,
I can feel the air on my face, and you
want to just feel them one by one slowly. Then
you move to three, which is here listen carefully and
name three things that you can hear, and maybe you

(38:28):
can even tune in and try to notice sounds that
you typically tune out. So maybe it's a bird out
the window, or the hum of your laptop, a car
passing on the street, the hum of a light or
a fan, something like that. Then you move to two,
which is smell. Name two things you can smell if

(38:48):
in this moment you can't smell anything with my art
common Yeah, you can also just recall two smells that
you enjoy. So maybe it's when you're you know you're
morning coffee is brewing, or your favor apple spread bag,
apple pie flowers, and then number and then you move

(39:10):
to number one, which is taste. If you have a
drink or some candy or mint or a snack nearby,
take up a bite or a sip of that and
notice how it tastes. If you don't have something nearby,
maybe there's an aftertaste of gum or mint or a
sip of coffee, So hopefully you'll be able to taste

(39:34):
something that's one. When you're done with all of that,
you take a couple slow, deep breaths and hopefully at
that moment, you now have spent two or three minutes
using your senses to bring you back into your body
and into the room and to get out of your head.
I mean, that's that's really what this is about. Is

(39:55):
you want to get get out of the loops in
your head that are that are causing the distress.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
I have to say, Jessica, I am so happy that
you said that out loud. All of the steps for
everyone listening. I can attest that is absolutely something that
I use and at least for me personally, it absolutely works.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Just by the time.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
It's not something I do every day, but when I
need to, as you said, just calm it down and
just going through that.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
And it is. It is powerful. It's unbelievable. You're very
good about this.

Speaker 8 (40:29):
Just to call you out in terms of really you
have great self care in this. You meditate every day, really,
you legitimately do. That is not just something you say
you do like seven days a week. That is something
that you have really incorporated into your daily life.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
And it's really inspiring.

Speaker 8 (40:49):
And you know, if you have any tips on that too,
because I feel like I want to, but I don't.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
I'm saying, yeah, Jessica, what are you?

Speaker 10 (41:00):
I was just going to say, I think that, first
of all, meditation is probably one of the best things.
It's scientifically back that if you meditate, you will experience
reduce symptoms of depression and anxiety almost immediately. And the

(41:22):
beautiful thing about meditation, because it can feel really intimidating
for a lot of people, I don't even know where
to begin me too, Meditation really can be one minute
you're in your car, you're at a red light, and
for the length of the red light, you are taking
some deep breaths and noticing how it feels in your

(41:47):
body for the thirty seconds that you're at the red light,
that is considered meditation. Meditation is, and it can be
one minute, it can be five minutes, it can be
twenty minutes. There's still really a major impact on the
brain and the nervous system to do so. And for

(42:08):
some people, they really like to do a mindfulness meditation
where they're listening to a script and they have somebody
else leading them through a little bit of a narrative.
Other people like to just do slow, deep breathing and
pay attention to sensations in their body. That is also

(42:28):
considered meditation. Some people like to do a moving meditation,
which for a lot of people, they'll say that ram
yoga is a moving meditation because you're doing the same
poses every time you go, so you can sort of
get comfortable with just going into a zone and clearing
your mind and just being in your body. And there

(42:50):
are such things as meditation walks where you just literally
walk out your door and you're not listening sarri to
any podcasts.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
I'm taken. Yeah, yeah, she didn't mean that.

Speaker 10 (43:05):
You're just listening to the sounds of nature and noticing
what you're seeing along your walk and noticing your breathing,
noticing how you're feeling. That's considered meditation too, so it
comes in all shapes and sizes and has a benefit
whichever one resonates with you.

Speaker 8 (43:23):
By the way, even just hearing your voice, Am I
not alone in this? Like your voice is so like yeah,
it's really just like you're the way she speaks right,
Like I feel calmer here, Jessica Kaplan.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, the cadence of it.

Speaker 5 (43:38):
I'm hypnotized, and that when I go to.

Speaker 8 (43:41):
Yoga, and when I'm in yoga and I have done
Bickram's yoga, the entire time, I am planning my exit, like.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Literally the entire time.

Speaker 8 (43:50):
I'm like so after this, no, everybody's eyes will be
shut and I am OUTI the entire time. And I
know that's opposite land And for me, reality TV is
a kind of distraction because it makes nice settle my
mind in a weird way.

Speaker 7 (44:03):
I have that trouble meditating. I can't like my mind
is still racing about things that are going on or
what I see me do that day. I can't to.

Speaker 5 (44:11):
Figure it out.

Speaker 10 (44:12):
That's okay, and that's okay, taha. It's okay that you
notice that your mind is racing. And another important part
of meditation is to not judge yourself as you're trying
to meditate, which means you so anytime you're trying to
quiet your mind and suddenly like you're thinking about your
shopping grocery, shopping list or whatever. Yes, all you do

(44:35):
is you just acknowledge it. Oh, there I go. And
then you come back to your breath or you come
back to feelings in your body, and you might have
to do that twenty times in a two minute meditation,
but that's okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
And two minutes is enough. I never even thought of
the red light.

Speaker 8 (44:51):
I mean that to me seems very doable on a
regular basis and not intimidating.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah, honestly, we literally cannot thank you enough. I think
all of us are calmer. All's week For myself. Your
tips were applicable and they are so necessary and you
are wonderful.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
So Jessica kaplan.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
Absolutely and pleasure if anybody wants to learn more about
Jessica's practice. I urge you to find her via her website.
She is at Jessica Kaplan with a K Jessica Kaplantherapy
dot com. And you just heard how wonderful and actionable
her advice is.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
We are better for it now.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
So thanks again and listen stick with us, because coming
up we have the president of the US Marshals Museum
joining us. He's going to talk about all the most
infamous manhunts, from Travis Decker to the Beltway Sniper.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
We have that more true crime tonight. We love you, jess.

Speaker 8 (46:02):
Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We are
talking true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with
Courtney and Body, and I am feeling much more relaxed
after our marriage and family therapist Jessica Kaplan put us
all back in check. If you missed any of the
first hour, please check it out as a podcast later
and listen. We're trying to come up with some tools

(46:23):
to kind of ground ourselves during this very cloudy time
and find the light through it. And I feel like
Jessica Kaplan really she really did the trick on that,
so woof.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
I feel so much better. I do grounded. Grounded.

Speaker 8 (46:38):
Guess that's a great word. And yeah, like more of
that to come, by the way. If you have any
tips or tricks or things that are working for you
in your personal life, let us know, because we're kind
of you know, we're all evolving and learning this together.
And you swap your tricks and we'll swap ours. Yeah,
we're also going to share call us because we have

(46:59):
to share.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Sharing is the answer. Eight eight eight three one crime.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
There was actually one thing I want to say, And
we were talking off the air, all of us, with
Jessica Kaplan, who is so wonderful.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
There's a free website.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
It's just self Compassion with a hyphen in the middle
self hyphencompassion dot org and you can go there and listen.
There are free practices you can listen to. I think
one is two minutes. There's one that's five minutes, and
it's just a self compassion and it's a guided thing
for five minutes of your life. But I will do it.

(47:37):
I reach for it when I am spinning. I don't
know if any of you will find yourself just feeling frenetic,
feeling mad at the world.

Speaker 8 (47:47):
I thought you were saying spin class, and I was like,
I will not find myself there.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yeah, spinning in my head.

Speaker 8 (47:54):
Taha, it's spin class, spin in my head.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
But yeah, I'll sometimes just cry in my car and not.

Speaker 8 (48:01):
Know why I cry, but the shower or a good
airplane cry.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
Oh are you guys airplane criers?

Speaker 5 (48:10):
I never cried on an airplane?

Speaker 2 (48:12):
What really am I alone in this? Okay? So interesting,
funny enough.

Speaker 8 (48:18):
I always assumed it was the altitude, but for some reason,
and you know, I'm the I'm pretty cheery, just like DNA,
just born that way despite circumstance. But on a plane,
sometimes I get weepy and the plane will take off
and I'll watch it a little any movie, any movie,
especially in rock com and it.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Is like like I could feel it's starting, and like.

Speaker 8 (48:43):
The person next to me will like hand me their napkin,
like literally, And it's not for a reason, but I
think it's just a release, like.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Sometimes we just hear so many hard things.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
Do you know what I actually I take it back
when I was surprised, Yes, I have one hundred percent.
I remember I am about to see Maureen Smith from
my high school reunion.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah, but we have flown.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
All over the World and watching a silly movie Waking
Ned Divine. Oh, a good airplane movie. It's a great
airplane movie. But yes, I think, honestly it might be
it's the release because you can't do anything. Yeah, you
can't busy yourself, you cannot distract yourself. You are sitting
with yourself on an airplane. So maybe that's it, like
the shower.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Yeah, and there has to be something to the altitude.
I am curious for anyone of those science do it.
But like I watched Me Joe Black and barely recovered.
I was like, ah, like sobbing, like sobbing that movie.

Speaker 8 (49:37):
Yeah, And I wasn't like going to a funeral. I
was actually going on a joy ride and I was
in a very wonderful happy place, going to a very
happy place, but just sob the whole way. And then
I left the plane and was like it's on and
like I felt so much better. And I did one
time learn that sometimes tears have like a scientific like
it's good to get them out, because there's almost like
a science to tears that they're I correct me if

(50:01):
I'm wrong here, but this was really told to me
that like if you.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
Store them in, it could be really toxic in your body.

Speaker 7 (50:07):
I'm sure it just releases in general, but yeah, I've
had that. You has seen that. So but these stories
like have impacted me so much, and I found myself
like crying over things.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
I'm like, what is this like?

Speaker 7 (50:18):
I don't really I normally hold myself together in such
a normal way. But anyway, but yeah, it's good to
know that there's a release and whatever just just talk
to us about has helped me already in these few minutes.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
Yes, and tears. They contain hormones, so yeah, yeah, I
mean it releases stress hormones, it releases oxytocin, it releases dopamine.

Speaker 5 (50:41):
That's why I always feel better.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 8 (50:44):
And by the way, a little like play along tip,
if you're ever feeling like lost in the sauce in
your head for no real reason before you assign a
reason to it, go to a movie and have a
good cry. Allow yourself create the opportunity for the good cry.
Get that at it's exhausting, and you'll be disgusting and
sleep it off, and then the next day it you'll
really be surprised, like maybe the dust has settled, because

(51:07):
sometimes it's not yours. It's just the sadness the whole
day is real. Yeah, yeah, and it's beautiful in the
same way.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
It's like we're all connected.

Speaker 8 (51:17):
So h well, you know, thank you for a better
time to talk about Epstein. But let's do it, Courtney,
what do we think about Epstein? Are these files about
to get pushed out the.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Door or what?

Speaker 1 (51:33):
Well, well, well, a discharge petition it is now set
to reach the magic two hundred and eighteen signatures, which
would force a very rare House floor vote, and that
would compel the Justice Department to release all of the
federal files on Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
So yeah, this magic number.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
And of course Jeffrey Epstein, he's a wealthy financier. He
was convicted of sex offenses involving minors. He died by
quote suicide that is the actual cause of death, the
official cause of death in twenty nineteen. And his longtime
associate Gilaene Maxwell also was sort of his second in

(52:17):
command in this sex trafficking ring, and she was convicted
and is serving a twenty year sentence. So what's happening
is excuse my pronunciation, Adalita Grahalva. Right, she is replacing
her father, the late Raoul Gahava, after she won a

(52:37):
special election for her Arizona district, and she has vowed
to sign this petition as soon as she's sworn in.
What this does, if the numbers are what they appeared
to be, it guarantees a House floor vote on the
demand for the full DOJ disclosure.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Of the files I have.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
Now.

Speaker 9 (52:59):
Yeah, I think that assumes everybody the way they voted
last time, right.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
That's what I said, if the number is to stay
as they appear to be, because they.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
Can absolutely change when you know, because I.

Speaker 9 (53:10):
Feel like sometimes they vote knowing it's going to fail.
That way, they could be like, well at least days.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Right, you know what I mean. Soft.

Speaker 9 (53:19):
So I'm just kind of I just listen. I don't
trust anybody anymore, you know what I mean. I just
don't trust any.

Speaker 8 (53:24):
Of them, and like, so it's so upsetting it. I
want to I want to trust everybody. I do too,
and I know you do.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
I all do.

Speaker 8 (53:32):
And I guess that's what's so frustrating about it. I'm
going to keep saying it. By the way, I think
I said I thought Diddy was going to get his
sentence tomorrow. I also thought tomorrow was October first, So
I think you just.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
Got six days of your life. Stephanie congratua like I'm
missing a week. But soon. I still think it could tomorrow.
It could be the Friday.

Speaker 8 (53:54):
Thing I was doubling down on. Maybe next Friday, maybe
Epstein thing too. I think the world is very busy
right now, and I do think there's action behind the
scenes to either keep these files from coming out soon
soon soon, or to get these files out soon soon soon.
I do think everything is in play right now.

Speaker 2 (54:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Well, listen, we will keep you updated as information comes,
and it's coming out quite a bit. And listen, this
is true crime tonight. We want to hear from you.
We're just talking about Epstein. We just have Jessica Kaplan
on marriage and family counselor, who was giving us tips
on how to deal with the grief of everything in
the news, and we want to hear.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
How are you doing and what are your tips?

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Eight at eight three one Crime And in the meantime, body,
what's our next headline?

Speaker 9 (54:44):
Well, Barry Morphew, do you guys remember Barry Morphew. Of course,
he is the accused murderer of his wife, Suzanne morphew.
And you know he was arrested in twenty twenty I
think I'm twenty twenty, and released in twenty twenty one one,
and then re arrested this year, and guess what, he's
been released again.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
So go ahead.

Speaker 9 (55:06):
You were ready to snap, ready to snatch it, just
to see it.

Speaker 8 (55:11):
Though, he is accused of murdering his wife on Mother's Day.
Her body was found and it was assumed that she
was sort of snatched from her bicycle, even though her
bicycle was found, and when her body was discovered, it
appears it had been removed and then placed and somehow redressed.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
Is that accurate?

Speaker 8 (55:30):
Yes, Yes, that's that's exactly what we were talking about.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
A cob I mean.

Speaker 9 (55:37):
Yes, kids exactly dismissing right, there's a lot of Shenanigan's
happening with poor Suzanne. Okay, yes, And there was a
three million dollar bond. Uh and he posted three hundred
thousand dollars. Now where did he get three? Where did
he gives a lot? There's a lot of chatter, this
is unsubstantiated, that he supporters Again, there's a lot of

(56:01):
people out there that support these kinds of people.

Speaker 5 (56:04):
It was about ad nausey.

Speaker 11 (56:06):
We've talked about this a lot, right, Wait, they love
Barry because they think Barry's a real catch. And they
said they think he's innocent and being you know, accused
of a crime he didn't commit. You know, every I
feel like every defendant, especially those that kill women. Let's
be let's be honest, all right, they have supporters and
you know, I mean people.

Speaker 5 (56:26):
Go to prison like Richard and Meiers.

Speaker 9 (56:28):
He goes to eat the Nights Talker, he goes to
prison and he gets all these women, you know, yes,
and gets married and you know, there's this happens, and
so there's chatter that there his supporters raise the money.
Now I don't know if that's true or not, but
it's it's unsubstantiated chatter.

Speaker 5 (56:45):
But it's a lot of chatter.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
It's so interesting and it is so dark and what
would drive you, I mean, is the rationale, Well, he
was married once, he knows how to commit.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Like, I don't know what the thought.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
We've spoken to other therapists about hypristopher hybristophilia.

Speaker 8 (57:02):
By the way, weren't we going to have someone on
from the show Love After Lock Up?

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Not to rail but like that's a later day down
the road. But I'm dying to talk more.

Speaker 5 (57:11):
Oh oh next week, Oh next week.

Speaker 8 (57:14):
Interesting because that's a show about as a TV show
about that anyway back to it, I can't believe what
I'm hearing, right.

Speaker 9 (57:21):
So that's what's going on with Barry, and now he
has to stay. He's kind of like on house arrest.
It's not like he's free to gallivant, you know, across
the country. But I mean, let's be real, he kind
of is a flight risk because after he was released
in twenty twenty one, he like left and went to Arizona, right,
and was, you know, kind of living an assumed.

Speaker 5 (57:41):
Name down there. That's right, Yeah, you imagine.

Speaker 9 (57:46):
I know he was hitting on those women at the bar,
and he gave him different names. He had like a
couple of different names. The neighbors knew him by one name,
the girls at the bar knew him by another. So
it's almost like he's hiding in plain sight, right and
made trying to find a new woman to latch onto.
But in this in this scenario, he is under strict

(58:06):
house arrest with an ankle monitor, and he must surrender
his passport and abstain from drugs and alcohol, so he
won't be at the bar dancing with the women this
time around, like he was.

Speaker 8 (58:17):
Isn't the other big ticket item here? Correct me if
I'm wrong? Didn't he like there was like tranquilizers involved
him directly?

Speaker 5 (58:26):
Correct?

Speaker 9 (58:26):
So when he lived in Indiana, when they lived in Indiana,
Susannah Barry, you know, raising their kids and beautiful cerilary marriage. Right,
he kind of operated a deer farm and then when
he moved to Colorado kind of you know, brought some
of that over to Colorado, and he was I think
he I think he was the only person in this

(58:49):
area of Colorado to be licensed to have this deer tranquilizer.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
Correct.

Speaker 9 (58:53):
And when they found Barry, right, when they found Suzanne, uh, finally,
you know, after years they did, you know, there was
only so many ways to determine what happened to her, right,
And one of the things they did was they tested
her bone marrow and it had this deer train in
her system, so she was you know kind of.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
And didn't Also they find investigators find in their washing
machine and Barry Morpheus washing machine sort of the cap
of the injectable.

Speaker 8 (59:26):
Oh, I'm feeling anxious again and mad. Yes, I feel angry.
I see the lamp, I see.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
The door knob.

Speaker 8 (59:33):
Yeah, but like, honestly, like that is bananas to me.
And by the way, they had the loveliest children, and
the daughters have been standing by him.

Speaker 5 (59:40):
Yeah they have, They really have.

Speaker 9 (59:42):
And you know they're often photographed together leaving court and
things like that. But no, Barrie's the prosecutors and law enforcement.
They remain committed to pursuing justice in this regardless of
him being in jail or not in jail, like, they're
committed to seeing this through this time. His next court
status conference is sket November third, so we'll be following

(01:00:02):
it up on that date. We already have it on
the calendar ready to go. I am anxious to find
out what's going to happen. And remember she went missing
maybe on Mother's Day of twenty twenty, and she was
having an affair with an old high school sweetheart and
Barry found out and he was kind of enraged. And
this is kind of seems to be the motive, like

(01:00:23):
almost like a if I can't ever, nobody can nobody
in a situation, right, And he was often very jealous
and whatnot. In the text messages which we all you
have seen many times, really show like this kind of
like domineering guy who wouldn't even let Susan breathe. You know,
she didn't really have anything but him, that's what he wanted.

(01:00:44):
So we're going to see what happens. But you know,
there's an also in the autopsy. This is important. They
didn't really find any external trauma. They only found that
trenk So we really don't even know the cause of
her get that's how that her oh wow, body was right.
They don't even know really what happened. They just found

(01:01:05):
this tranquilizer.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
I didn't realize that.

Speaker 9 (01:01:08):
Yeah, I mean a lot of people think that maybe
she was buried alive. You know, it's just it's it's
a terrible thought. I don't think that's what happened. But
I just think her body was in such a state
that they couldn't really tell.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
I feel for the kids. Children I hear to put
in the worst spot ever.

Speaker 5 (01:01:24):
I know, it's just awful. I mean, what do you
do in that situation?

Speaker 9 (01:01:27):
But keep up, you know, coming up, we're going to
have the President of the US Marshalls me a hero
joining us to uncover the Marshal's hidden role in America's
most infamous man hunts.

Speaker 5 (01:01:38):
Keep it right here, True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
What a night it has been. Again.

Speaker 8 (01:01:52):
If you've missed any of the show, please check it
out as a podcast, and if you want to join
the show live right now, please do eight to Day,
three to one Crime. We really want to hear from
you because we are celebrating the US Marshal. Yes, so Ben, Yes,
we are really highlighting great heroes and Ben, you being
one of them.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
So Courtney, get us started. All right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:16):
We are lucky enough to have Ben Johnson. He is
President and CEO of the US Marshall's Museum. Ben is
leading the charge at this brand new museum. It is
in Fort Smith, Arkansas, and it opened just last year.
So this museum which ps my husband can't wait to
go to and I can't wait to join him. This
museum preserves the history of America's oldest federal law enforcement agency,

(01:02:40):
the Marshals, and it has landmark cases and trailblazers who
were Marshals, interactive exhibits. So Ben is here to tell
us about this museum and the Marshall's role in some
of the biggest cases in literal history and why the
work matters.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Ben, welcome back and.

Speaker 3 (01:03:01):
Hello, Hello, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 8 (01:03:03):
You know, it's funny, like it's so prevalent right now
and in the news with Travis Decker, et cetera, and
just looking through all of the big, huge cases, you know,
Andrew Cunanan, I mean, there's so there's so many that
we're hoping the DC Sniper like, we want to have
you back as regularly as possible to tell these heroic
tales because.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
You know, it's a real it's an honor.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
Yeah, that's great, and you know, for for most everybody,
the Marshalls is the most important agency. They've really never
heard of.

Speaker 12 (01:03:33):
Or if they have heard of it, it's the Old
West movies or something like that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:38):
So to be in the oldest uh, well, they like
to be called the first, the first federal law enforce.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
This.

Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
Yeah, yeah, they really, you know, not a lot of
people having a full appreciation of what they've done over
the last two hundred and thirty six years. So it's
my job to get out there and tell their story.
And thank you for giving me the opportunity to do it.

Speaker 8 (01:03:58):
Maybe even just there like the US Marshall. Why is
that the case that we know maybe less about the
US Marshall and question all you're doing.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
Yeah, I think a lot of it goes back. You know,
they've been around since seventeen eighty nine. They're the one
federal law enforcement agency that is legitimately in the Constitution
of the United States, and so you know, they have
been bounced around in a lot of ways, somewhat pejoratively,
they've been called the other duties agencies. So although they
had them very clear constitutional directives of what they were

(01:04:33):
supposed to do, they do get tasked, well, who's going
to do that? Well, let's send the marshals over to
do that. So you know, they really have flown under
the radar. They don't like being the center of attention.
They do their job, they do what they're tasked to do,
and they try to stay out of the way. And

(01:04:53):
you know that has served them well for over two centuries.
But you know, in an age of twenty four to
seven news and podcasts and social media, not being out
there front and center that does, you know, potentially have
a negative impact. But they are everywhere. The Martial Service
is literally everywhere they're involved in every major scenario in

(01:05:17):
American history since seventeen eighty nine, and really there's no
it's just it's it's an amazing story. And I actually
spent the week with the Marshall Service Association Annual conference
and getting to just sit and talk with some of
those retired deputies and senior leaders and just hear about
the decades of experience they have. It's just remarkable, and

(01:05:40):
you know, they are worthy of all the praise that
we can heap on them.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
I would have gone amazing, Oh my goodness.

Speaker 5 (01:05:47):
I would agree with that.

Speaker 9 (01:05:49):
So beyond the man hunts, we hear about the Marshalls
handle fugitive apprehension, right witness protection, prisoner transport, and enforcing
federal court orders. To those responsibilities do you think surprise
people the most.

Speaker 3 (01:06:05):
I think it's a combination of all of it. You know,
from the very beginning, traditional security, protecting judges, protecting witnesses,
that was always one of the core duties. And particularly
you know, protecting court houses federal property. That's still a
big thing of what they do. But I think the
investigative part and even the witness security part, I mean

(01:06:27):
everyone's heard of the you know Air quotes Witness Protection
Program and you know you want to be you know,
we're going to pick you up and stick you in
the middle of Idaho or something. And so nothing against Idaho,
don't I don't want to get emails, no, no, no no.
But I think the critical thing that folks are most

(01:06:47):
surprised about is just the depth of what they have done,
and that you know, from the civil rights movement to
the present day, you know, they really have had to
handle a lot of things. So the Witness Security Program
is one that I would love to go into some
great detail with you on game. Yeah. Here's the problem though,

(01:07:10):
they won't tell us anything.

Speaker 12 (01:07:13):
So even the key thing about WITSEC is that nobody
talks about with sc and it works really really well
for a reason.

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
And so although we we do plan on, you know,
having having some some additional resources where we can talk
about the history of it. It's really a remarkable program
that has evolved over the last thirty or forty years
into into a highly organized and professional deal where nobody
that follows the rules of the program has ever been harmed.

(01:07:45):
It's the people who go out here to the bounds
of the program. And so you do what they tell
you to do. Uh, you're fine. It's the you know
what we hear about it is through you know, Henry
Hill's book or the movie Fellows, things.

Speaker 12 (01:08:01):
Like that's how you kind of figure out that, you know,
Sam it all has.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
A TikTok, Sammy the bull is ektok? What are the
rules to witness protection?

Speaker 8 (01:08:11):
Because you are a singing my song right now?

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Like I have never really thought about it.

Speaker 8 (01:08:15):
But if you were like, oh, they're in witness protection,
I'm like, what does that mean?

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
Do they have a fake name? Is it just did
they have to have a whole pretend life? What if
you're not? I have the worst poker.

Speaker 8 (01:08:26):
Face, Like I wouldn't be able to actually absorb the
identity correct.

Speaker 9 (01:08:29):
We would be out of witness and breaking the rules.

Speaker 8 (01:08:34):
Would that's a lamp, that's a tree doing our meditations?

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
But like, what do we do?

Speaker 9 (01:08:43):
So it is a hundred success rate when they follow
the rules. That is really impressive, and.

Speaker 3 (01:08:50):
It's propressive, it is, and it's pretty it's pretty wild.

Speaker 13 (01:08:55):
When you really think about it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:57):
For as long as they've done it and did not
have anybody harmed, and and most of them that come
out of it, the people that they were testifying against
or that they were a fear for their life are
either in prison or deceased. And so that's why you
have the folks coming out and talking about it and
and being open is because they don't have to be

(01:09:17):
afraid anymore. It's really good And at some point I
do hope to be able to tell you some more stories,
but every time I ask about it, I've even been
to the floor at head quarters that witness security is
on and you've got to lock your phone up and they,
you know, they do all that, can't do anything. But

(01:09:38):
it's it's a cube farm. I mean, it looks like
any office building and they just turn everything off so
you can't see anything. And so yeah, I can't tell
you anything there.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
You'd be so good there. Yeah, that might be in
your future. You would be a man.

Speaker 5 (01:09:53):
Let's go, let's go. I want to be now.

Speaker 9 (01:09:56):
The man hunts probably are what the Marshals what I
kind of of them like on TV right doing these
manhunts and hunting down these people that are out there.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
How close is that to the real thing?

Speaker 3 (01:10:10):
It is one hundred percent real, the Marshals. So the
Marshall Service going back into so even if you go
back into the nineteenth century, so you think old West,
uh right, those and go get go, get the bad guys.
You know, that's that is legit history that I mean,

(01:10:31):
it's there's portions of it that are Hollywood obviously, but
you know, one of the reasons that the museum is
in Fortsmouth, Arkansas, which admittedly is kind of off the
beaten path for most people, is of the three hundred
and ninety three men and women who've been killed in
the wane of duty serving the Marshall service, one hundred
and twenty two of those, so a significant percentage were

(01:10:53):
killed serving out of the Federal Court in Fortsmouth, Arkansas.
And that was during the nineteenth century because Oklahoma, the
statey of Oklahoma is Indian territory, and you know, the
bad guys when they wanted to escape the arm of
the law, they would just ride across the river and
go into Indian territory and try to escape west.

Speaker 13 (01:11:14):
And so the marshals were legitimately the ones that would
get on horseback most often alone, are in small groups,
and go off and find the bad guys and bring
them back to face justice. So fast forward into the
twentieth and twenty first century. Now, the Marshal's Service is
they are the undisputed experts. And I'm biased, but they're

(01:11:37):
the undisputed experts when it comes to fugitive apprehension and tracking.
So in the seventies, the federal law enforcement agencies, that
kind of alphabet cocktail of different agencies handed the Marshall
Service responsibility for all federal fugitives. So although they partner
with FBI, A t FDA, the Marshals Servius are the

(01:12:01):
ones that really they don't do a ton of investigations
as such anymore. They do some, but.

Speaker 3 (01:12:08):
Usually it's we built the case, here's the guy, go
find him. And whether it's in the United States or
around the world, they're the best at it. And so
when we're talking about some of these cases that I
know we're going to talk about, they really have the
technical expertise, the technology, the experience, and they are they
don't quit man. It's really absolutely I.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
Mean, it certainly seems like there's been a lot of
man hunts in the news. Yeah, listen, we're lucky enough
to be talking about the US Marshals with Ben Johnson.
He's the president and CEO of the US Marshall's museum,
and we have to ask you about that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
What is going on? Tell us everything about them?

Speaker 5 (01:12:48):
Yes, what's up about this museum?

Speaker 3 (01:12:50):
So though the worry are the first federal law enforcement
agency was around it for a couple of hundred years.
The FBI had a museum that DEEA has a museum.
There are a lot of federal museums that the agency
was going, well, why don't we have one. What's going on?
We've been around the long game, we have the most
storied history's let's make this happen. So over the decades

(01:13:12):
from the seventies up into the nineties, there was one
small museum out out further west in Wyoming. There's a
traveling exhibit. But the service wanted an independent museum that
was kind of outside of the federal museum system, and
so they put it up for communities across the country
to say, if you want our museum, tell us why,
and we'll pick. And so in two thousand and seven,

(01:13:35):
because of the history of the Federal Court out of
Fort Smith, they basically selected Fort Smith, Arkansas, and to congratulations,
there you go. There's no federal money, there's none of.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
The gradulations you get moral support and your race.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
So we got spent fifteen years practically raising about fifty
million dollars. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable. We built this amazing
facility on the banks of the Arkansas River. We're looking
across into Oklahoma, which was formerly Indian Territory, and we

(01:14:15):
tell the history of the nation's premiere and the first
federal law enforcement agency. And so we it's fifty thousand
square foot facility around sixteen acres, and we have we
tell an American history story through the lens of the
Marshall Service, from the Constitution in seventeen eighty nine all

(01:14:35):
the way up into the present day. So we touch
on the Old West, we touch on the Civil Rights era,
we touch on social disruptions and riots and manhunts and
all those sorts of things anything you can think of
up to the present day, including a current top fifteen
most Wanted fugitive list that lives on the wall of
our gallery that we will swap out as they catch

(01:14:59):
them and bring them in.

Speaker 13 (01:15:00):
And so it's really.

Speaker 3 (01:15:03):
It is awesome. Really, I mean, I am.

Speaker 5 (01:15:06):
I would love to see that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
Yeah, come on down.

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
Yeah it is Arkansas is beautiful, Arkansas is amazing. Yeah,
I wouldn't come in August. August is a little hot.

Speaker 10 (01:15:21):
I think.

Speaker 9 (01:15:24):
Your Vegas is it your Eureka Springs at all? Up
there in northwest Arkansas. I'm not sure where it's at me.
I've been there before and it's beautiful.

Speaker 3 (01:15:33):
It is then oragest part of the country. And really
you could pick up this museum and take it anywhere
in the country or anywhere in the world and it
would fit in perfectly. So you know, it really is
just a remarkable opportunity for us. And we're telling cool
stories and been open a couple of years and now
we're getting out with new friends like you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
I love.

Speaker 1 (01:15:52):
Uh, We're all excited to visit and listen, we only
have about a minute. But if someone's visiting for the
first time time, what's one thing you hope they walk
away with?

Speaker 10 (01:16:03):
Ms?

Speaker 3 (01:16:05):
You know, people need people, I think, especially now, need
to have a good opportunity and a good understanding of
law enforcement in general, and really just knowing that these
are men and women who are trying to do their
best and really they're individuals that are dedicating their lives
to something bigger than themselves. And although you know it

(01:16:25):
is easy to dehumanize law enforcement and say that they're
the enemy or they're doing all this bad stuff. These
these folks really put it all on the line for
peanuts when it comes to money, and and that is
our job to make sure that they know we appreciate them.
But in terms of favorite exhibits and stuff, we built
a saloon that.

Speaker 12 (01:16:47):
Has a digital bartender, you an interactive poker table, trivia thing,
and so that's the coolest.

Speaker 2 (01:16:59):
I love that. Listen, we'll stick around.

Speaker 1 (01:17:01):
We're lucky and Ben Johnson will be staying with us,
and we're going to talk about the US marshall's role
in some of the most infamous manhunts. We're talking Travis Decker,
We're talking to Bellwy Sniper, So keep it here. True
Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all the time, and
if you want to speak to Ben, give us a call.
Eighty eight three one Crime.

Speaker 8 (01:17:32):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been
talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here
with Courtney Armstrong, Body Move In and we are talking
all things US marshals, the heroes that are behind the
scenes keeping us all safe, going in and doing the
hard stuff, the sacrifice. I mean, it's really just something

(01:17:53):
we all need to be reminded of because behind the
scenes and some of the biggest manhunts, these huge cases,
there are US marshals doing the work away from their
families and putting.

Speaker 2 (01:18:04):
It all on the line, quite literally.

Speaker 8 (01:18:06):
So Ben Johnson, thank you for being with us and
continuing to tell us these harrowing tales of success and heroism.

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
Before we go any further, let's go to a quick
talk back.

Speaker 3 (01:18:16):
Hey, my name is Kyle.

Speaker 6 (01:18:17):
My wife Whitney, works on True Crime Tonight a police
officer in Ohio. I'm also a w US Marshall with
the So Fast Task Force. Being all the Muscle services
has been an amazing experience. I've got to work with
a whole bunch of different agencies, put a lot of
bad guys behind bars. Yes, listen to you guys all
the time. Keep up the good work and thank you

(01:18:38):
for what you do.

Speaker 2 (01:18:39):
Yay, Okay. So we love Kyle.

Speaker 8 (01:18:42):
So that's Kyle, and our associate producer who is on
our staff and on our team, Whitney, that's her husband,
and we're just so proud. So, you know, again, just
a way to kind of highlight some of these moments
of heroine.

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):
He's a young guy doing such good work and it's
just a dedicated, kind human and those things about to
be Whitney, and Whitney's the greatest.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
And you think about it being deployed.

Speaker 8 (01:19:13):
Yeah, as a mom, as a supportive wife, you know,
with children, Listen, you know, let's not take for granted
to sacrifice that is so let alone going in being
a US marshal and serving our country or in any
of the forces. And let alone the families who have to,
you know, hold down the fort literally quite literally, you know,

(01:19:34):
with kids and families and jobs and money, all the things.

Speaker 5 (01:19:37):
It's a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:19:38):
So this hats off.

Speaker 9 (01:19:40):
Yes, okay, Ben, listen, I've been dying to ask you
about this case. We have been following the Travis Decker case. Yes,
let's start with that. Every day I checked the news
or I would check the news. What's going on with
Travis Decker, what's going on in Trav What role did
the US marshals play in that manhunt? And what stood
out to you about how it was handled.

Speaker 3 (01:20:00):
It's a remarkable case. And I think it's remarkable in
the sense that it is so it's not similar to
a lot of other things, but specifically in relation to
the Marshall Service. So admittedly this is a new a
new case. This, you know, the things that the updates
are happening in real time, relatively recently, so you know

(01:20:20):
a lot of this hasn't passed into history yet where
they've they've really had a chance to digest everything that's happened.
And then you know, usually for us, recent is a
couple of decades, you know, from a museum standpoint, so
you know days, days, weeks, months. But I think the
critical thing is when it clearly became uh you know,

(01:20:42):
the the victims were found and acknowledged in the identified
him as as the potential perpetrator, and when the Martial
Service basically the responsibility for the fugitive side, going back
to what we were talking about before, the Marecial Service
took on the responsibility of finding the individual. And so

(01:21:05):
what the Marshal Service is tremendous at is as good
as they are, they are also one of the smallest,
if not the smallest, federal agency from a law enforcement standpoint,
but they are a force multiplier par excellence, and so
that they are able to take state, local, county and

(01:21:27):
other federal agencies and get the absolute best and squeeze
the most and whatever resources they need. They basically get
double the amount of energy out of a small group
of people. So for this particular case, the marshals utilize
their technical operations, which they are They won't talk to

(01:21:50):
really about this either, but they are incredibly good at
distilling information, whether it's digital or otherwise, and identifying where
people are, how they are, how they canmmunicate where they going.
This particular case, you know, the dudes likely you know,
out in the middle of nowhere, but they didn't know that.
I mean they you know, what all you find is

(01:22:11):
is a couple of bodies. They could be anywhere in
the country or Canada or Mexico. So the Martiall service
is great at taking in a massive amount of data
and distilling it down in a way to make the
best possible decisions in a short time. But they also
use traditional investigation techniques. So they're asking questions, they're out

(01:22:35):
in the woods, they're with the dogs, they're with the helicopters,
and you know the drones. You know, drones these days,
those are relatively new. So you know, this particular case,
I think it would be interesting, you know, when the
dust settles and when the time comes for them to
really discuss all of the efforts that went into bringing

(01:22:58):
this to a conclusion. It'll be interesting to see who
did what when and how all of those dominoes fell
to be able to get to the point where you
find the perpetrate. I mean, it's really insane.

Speaker 8 (01:23:12):
And remember, like he was very dangerous. We know that
he Travis Decker, was off his medication. He was suffering
from a lot going on, potentially from PTSD, maybe even
from serving at a later earlier time. You know, any
of all the survival training he had, all the survival training.
So again now at days and days, weeks and weeks

(01:23:33):
being potentially in the Marshals, never gave up the Marshals.
We have said this off camera. Yeah, so many times
we're like, you know what the idea that humans are
going night day brawling walking every inch of that.

Speaker 9 (01:23:47):
This terrain is hostile, right like it is it's densely
forested right correct.

Speaker 2 (01:23:53):
And it's a thousand vac of elevation is how high
he was? Yeah?

Speaker 9 (01:23:58):
Why so this isn't like you know, a beach in California.
This is like rugged terrain that the Marshals and other
agencies too are looking for. But primarily the Marshalls seem
to be like the people in charge of these manhunts.

Speaker 3 (01:24:13):
And it's pretty amazing when you think of it. I mean,
when you when you think of our everyday stress. You know,
on the job, we're stressed out about whatever it is.
You know, I'm not getting a response from a vendor,
or no one's returning my email or whatever. These guys,
these guys are out there crawling around in the woods,
or even if it's an urban setting. You're in an

(01:24:34):
urban setting, you're going door to door. You don't know
literally what is behind that door. It could be empty,
it could be a little kid, it could be a
guy with a machine gun. And you won't know until
you get there. And so you know you are out there,
you just get up and you go do it. And
it's it is. Most people could not deal with the stress.

(01:24:57):
And that's why, you know, not to bring it to
you know, a real downer. But that's why these these
women really, you know, they struggle with the stresses of
their life and so being able to put what they
do and into context. I think it's important and you
know the fact that you know they are so successful
so much of the time, and that the the the

(01:25:20):
incidents of duty deaths are relatively low for the Marshal
Service and for other agencies. It's really remarkable. I mean
you would expect with the Looney Tunes world that we
live in, Yeah, you would expect far more, you know,
death and destruction, and so God bless them for doing it.
And they really are the best when it comes to

(01:25:41):
kind of getting that web of tools together and bringing
it to.

Speaker 8 (01:25:46):
Bear the true American spirit period the end of your afflimation,
like life on the line for us.

Speaker 9 (01:25:54):
Yeah, I actually helping the most dangerous people too. I mean,
these aren't just you know, the guy who stole candy
bar right, exactly, really dangerous people that they're hunting and there,
and they're.

Speaker 8 (01:26:05):
Not policymakers, right, These are devoted men and women who
are showing up political single day to stand for us,
to protect us despite anything happening in the world that's
wild and the devotion and the bravery is unparalleled.

Speaker 3 (01:26:22):
I agree, And that's a tremendous point. And I want
to underline that because I think it's important for people
to know, especially when you look on the news and
you know, people taking taking shots at law enforcement facilities
and doing these men and women are not the ones
making the policy decisions. You know, they have a chain

(01:26:42):
of command and they're being tasked and said, Okay, this
is what you're going to go do today, and you know,
they don't have an option, you know, of going back
and saying, boss, I really want to you know, let's
tell the department think about how I feel about this,
like I want to do. They don't get that chance,
you know, so they I have to do it within
the bounds of the law, and do it safely and

(01:27:03):
do it whatever.

Speaker 13 (01:27:04):
But they do it.

Speaker 3 (01:27:07):
They do a dangerous job, man, and it's really remarkable.

Speaker 1 (01:27:11):
It's super valiant, it really is. If you're just joining us.
We have Ben Johnson. He is president and CEO of
the US Marshall's Museum. It's in for Fort Smith, Arkansas,
and everyone who's there or traveling to should go.

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):
Ben.

Speaker 1 (01:27:28):
While we have you, we wanted to ask you about
the Beltway manhunt, the Beltway Sniper investigation. Rather, how did
the marshals coordinate all of the agencies?

Speaker 3 (01:27:41):
So this one is wild. I mean, I'm showing my
age a little bit. But when I started thinking about
this one again, it was remarkable that this was twenty
something years ago, that this and I remember watching this
on TV and going through and going, oh my god,
what are they doing? Like this is crazy. So the
Beltway Sniper series of events back twenty some years ago

(01:28:07):
now was It's remarkable in the sense so that it
is very a very modern case, but it was also
hamstrung by a handful of things that we don't even
we take for granted technology now and the ability to
track people by their cell phone and you know, know
who's where, and the video you know, the prevalent to
video cameras and all of that sort of thing. But

(01:28:29):
when you are living in the Grand Washington, DC area
in the early two thousands and people just start getting
assassinated with high powered rifles out of nowhere, you know,
you're you're you're filling your car up with gas and
you're done. You're walking out of home depot and you're done.

(01:28:51):
You're a kid walking into school and you're and to
think at the time, and you know, I vaguely remember
some of this about out about the you know, the
local jurisdictions and in who was handling the case. You
know that it became this this kind of terrifying months

(01:29:15):
long deal where you weren't sure, nobody was sure what
the heck was going to happen. And and so you know,
to look at it from the Marshall Service perspective, I mean,
this was not just a martial service case. This was
all hands on deck. But the marshals are always especially
in and around DC. You know, the Marshals have a
critical part to play because they are great at coordination

(01:29:38):
and streamlining some efforts. And although you had I think
it was Prince William County, you had, you know, the
Maryland and DC police, you had, FBI obviously is involved
in all of this. You have this multi jurisdictional nightmare
where you have murders in different jurisdictions. Everyone wants to

(01:30:00):
take control of their own investigation, and a lot of times,
you know, either the Marshall Service or the FBI or
whatever would be stuck in the middle kind of going,
what guys, what are we doing? Like we got to no, no, no,
we can't do we can't say that, we can't do that.
And then it's also an interesting you know, from a

(01:30:21):
technological standpoint, the marshals have always been on the forefront
of being able to coordinate information, and the FBI gets
a lot of credit for this too, you know, going
back into the thirties and the forties and really being
able to create some of the kind of modern policing techniques.
And it's not really data analytics back then, because it's
you know, index cards and a file system, but you

(01:30:43):
know it is. That was the beginning of it. So
with the cniper case, it was very much about you
had all of this information, You had America's most wanted
doing all of these They dedicated all of the shows
to it. You have the news media who is just

(01:31:06):
spitting out hearsay in a lot of instances, well it's
a it's a white van. No, it's this.

Speaker 13 (01:31:12):
So you're sending law.

Speaker 3 (01:31:14):
Enforcement down different rabbit holes in terms of how this works,
and so, you know, the marshals really did a valiant
effort of creating a system that could collate and process
all of the data. The hundreds or thousands of leads
that were coming in at any given moment. You know
that one of them could be good, but the vast

(01:31:34):
majority of them are probably just junk, right, And you know,
people say, and it's it's just remarkable that they were
able to do what they did in a given a
period of time. So really, by by filtering it, by
working with that with the FBI and the other groups,
the technical operations groups and other basically brought local and

(01:31:58):
state law enforcement together. And it was it's a miracle,
honestly that they were able to pull us together. And
some of it was, you know, the evil of the individuals,
and that they were anxious to communicate with law enforcement.
If they hadn't been interested in communicating, it's just wowd

(01:32:19):
But they did.

Speaker 1 (01:32:22):
But they did, And I am feeling so inspired. I mean,
you guys have to be too, Ben We I don't
think we can thank you enough.

Speaker 2 (01:32:30):
We're so happy you joined us. I hope you come again.

Speaker 1 (01:32:37):
For anyone listening, get over to the US Marshall's Museum.
It is in Fort Smith, Arkansas, and it is an
incredible place you experience history and everything Marshals related. Yes, yeah,
I love to Shawan and Mirra and yeah, yes, absolutely,
thank you Jessica Kaplan for joining us. And listen, we

(01:32:58):
will see you on Zore. We will speak to you
on Sundays. Is True Crime tonight and yeah, be safe
and be well.

Speaker 5 (01:33:06):
Bye.

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