Ellen Greenberg Forensics Deep Dive: Suicide or Homicide?

Forensics expert and Body Bags podcast host Joseph Scott Morgan joins for Scientific Sunday to unpack the murder of a New York City personal trainer, a controversial medical examiner’s ruling on Ellen Greenberg’s manner of death, and a decades-old cold case solved with cutting-edge forensic technology. He also presents a “Crime Lab” segment explaining how investigators determine a body’s time of death. Tune in for all the details. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Sunday, October nineteenth, and we
hope you had a beautiful weekend. How quickly the weekend
has gone by.

Speaker 3 (00:31):
I had the.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Benefit of actually hanging out with Joseph Scott Morgan this
weekend and his beautiful family.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Yes, we had a few toasts.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
And honestly, it makes me just know that all is
right in the world, despite what the headlines may say.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
So we're so glad that you were here.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Gather around, pull up a chair proverbially speaking to our
kitchen table, and listen.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Mondays upon us and it's going to be.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
A great week Let's start there first and foremost, because
there's a lot happening in the news right now, and
as you can imagine, it's scientific Sunday. So we have
Joseph Scott Morgan, our forensics expert, and.

Speaker 4 (01:12):
Do you hear my test tubes and beakers rattling?

Speaker 3 (01:15):
And do you ever test right now is that.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
I got your lab exactly, host of the hit podcast
body Bags. And also we're going to do a segment
called crime Lab tonight, right body so we're going to
actually talk about the time of death and how that's
determined by all you fancy smart people. Joseph, So we're
so happy that you're here. High fives and also listen, welcome.

(01:45):
I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm here as always with.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
Body move In.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Courtney is out for the evening, but that's okay because
we have the boys jumping in.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
We have Tah Sam.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yes, we are first show what I'm serious one on
one baby, Oh my god, so on everybody. We're so
proud of all of us, and we're so grateful for
the community and for the conversation and for you guys
to be jumping in with talkbacks and leaving us dms.

(02:19):
My dms have been getting righteously good. It's everything from
like exercise and like weighted vests exercises to a lot
of tips on some of the cases that we're talking about.
So just so you know, tonight we're going to do
a deep dive about Ellen Greenberg. Obviously that is full
court Press getting a lot of attention this week, there's been,

(02:40):
you know, yet another determination that it was allegedly suicide,
and Joseph, you're going to break that down for us
a bit. Obviously we're doing our true crime and chill
about the documentary surrounding this case, so we're going to
break it up into two parts. But Joseph's been following
this since day one, and quite frankly, I would have

(03:03):
to say that you and Nancy Grace have been really
keeping this case alive for Ellen's parents especially. I know
you're very close with them, so we're so happy to
have you here to discuss Also, you know, listen, we're
going to discuss this tomorrow in a much bigger way.
But Prince Andrew kind of in the hot seat right now.
This has huge He has relinquished his titles, his royal titles,

(03:27):
and that is based on a conversation with King Charles
who says this was becoming a bit of a distraction.
That is, of course, post all of the conversation around
his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, the disgraced financier and sex offender,
and the book with Virginia Guffrey is set to drop

(03:51):
on Tuesday. So there's been excerps that we've been talking
about throughout the week. I have a sneaking suspicion this
is going to be a very big story this week,
so we're paying very close attention. We'll be doing a
very big deep dive tomorrow. But I just want to
acknowledge that this is happening, and it's really major. Also,

(04:12):
the most precious our loop the museum in Paris.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
If you haven't been where Lisa is, what is going on?

Speaker 5 (04:23):
There has been a heist of with chainsaws, chainsaws, jewels
around It's unimaginable and broad green light.

Speaker 3 (04:34):
They broads in line, right in line.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
You know, we're seeing you know, I'm getting people literally
real time that are on vacation there that said that
they were in line in that Suddenly the line ended
and security said to them, oh, there's a tech issue.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
A tech issue. I'll say, yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
Somebody busted in with some like chainsaws, old school and
has stolen precious rules and how did that happen?

Speaker 3 (05:02):
How?

Speaker 2 (05:03):
And this is like ocean eleven times a bajillion. So
here we are and and listen all that and more
we are Taha is actually going to jump in tonight,
he's going to give us his first official first story. Yeah,

(05:29):
let's start.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
I got to put my vest on, my weighted best change.

Speaker 6 (05:34):
Okay, I'm ready, I'm ready.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
All Right, we have a stack knight of headlines and
leading it up his time.

Speaker 6 (05:44):
Okay, well I have I'm going to lead with saying
something going back to what you just talked about, how
you're saying a lot of people are sending you d
ms and you're getting all these all I get so
many d ms from different friends that it used to
be about fashion and you know, skincare. Now I get
all these dms about cold cases and killers and kidnappings.
And this particular case is one that all my friends

(06:07):
kept sending me because I used to live in New York.
So this one is a little crazy, but I'll fill
you in on all the details. But basically, the death
of Jacob zieban hood Was, who was found stabbed in
his Harlem apartment in August, has now officially been ruled
a homicide. Now this is intensifying. I know we didn't
really cover this one on our show, but I've been

(06:30):
kind of tracking this one a little bit off camera
or off air. This is intensifying the ongoing investigation into
his husband, Donald deeben Hood, who has not been charged
with the killing. So let me fill you in on
some of the story because it's really unusual to me
why he's not been charged. But maybe between body and
Steph and court, you guys can help me understand why.

(06:51):
On August first this year, Jacob, he's a fitness trainer.
He was discovered with multiple stab wounds in the bathroom
of the Harlem part that he shares with his husband,
Donald zeban Hood. Excuse me, he's a male model. So
this is one of the reasons the story got a
lot of attention is because.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Strikingly attention and the superhan yeah the entire time.

Speaker 6 (07:17):
Yeah, but I mean partially, I think the New York factor.
They both have a big Instagram presence, They're attractive, so
all those things tie in together. Now, the sad part
is the couple had a documented history of domestic violence,
and Donald had been previously arrested for assaulting Jacob and
for violating protective order, and.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
Jacob's the victim, right, you are correct, Donald assaulted Jacob previously.
They have been Okay, I just want to make sure
I follow on that.

Speaker 6 (07:47):
I know it gets confusing listening to the two male names,
but I'm going to try to remind everyone as we
go along. So again, Jacob zebn Hood. Jacob's death has
been ruled a homicide by the New York City Official
Office of Chief Medical Examiner. Now, the cause of death
was multiple blunts and sharp force injuries, with contributing factors

(08:08):
including alcohol. And I know about that because of white lotus.
But yeah, that's so, we'll talk about that later. But
Donald Devon Hood was in He was indicted in October
first for charges including burglary and assault, but has not
been charged with murder. I find that sidebar because the

(08:30):
burglary is.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
So sidebar for just a second. So he was indicted
for assault and burglary. Now was this assault in burglary
the same day as the murder?

Speaker 6 (08:40):
Correct?

Speaker 3 (08:42):
Really? Okay, so he has not been indicted for the murder,
but he has lesser indictments for assault.

Speaker 6 (08:48):
And okay, I'm glad that. And we're going to circle
back to that because I kind of have a little
theory as to why they might have done this, but
we're going to unpack it together. The victim, Jacob, had
texted his father during the assault, which had happened on
July thirty first, so earlier that that day, and it
included photos of his injury, and he was stating that

(09:10):
Donald had quote attack, beat and sliced him. So the
dad actually received a lot of this information directly. Authorities came.
They found the apartment in disarray, blood splattered on the walls,
furniture encounters Donald. This is here's another weird moment to me.
Donald claims, I found he'll he claims he found Jacob

(09:33):
dead the next morning around for him. Donald says he
was sitting on the couch after falling asleep and then
he discovered his husband slumped over the toilet and called
nine to one one.

Speaker 3 (09:42):
So so woke up to this. He's what he's saying.

Speaker 6 (09:44):
What he's saying, So it almost implies. I guess, if
you're looking at it from whatever Donald's angle is that
maybe he committed suicide or someone else was involved. I don't.

Speaker 3 (09:55):
So he's saying that the text that he sent his
dad was you know, his histrionic or something. If he
made it up that he was being assaulted.

Speaker 6 (10:05):
That it's possible. It's it's very possible. Because Donald is
saying he's pleading not guilty to all charges. So if
he's saying he's not involved with this, then who would
have done it? And for some reason this gave me
sort of Ellen Greenberg vibes. It's sort of this sort
of you know, someone that.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
Is except for he his has been ruled a homicide.
Homicide A big difference, right.

Speaker 6 (10:28):
So that's that's really the latest with that case, and
we're going to keep, you know, following as it goes along. Now,
what I found interesting because you know, Jacob is he's
a thirty four year old for thirty four year old
fitness trainer. He's affiliated with this popular company system Fit,
and Donald is the forty year old model and as
I mentioned, they had a you know a history of

(10:49):
domestic violence dating back for a while now. But I
have a forensic question for Joseph immediately off the start,
if you can. I know you're just getting up to
speed on this case. So this was a little new
to you. So I'm wondering because you know, I love
the forensic worlds that you've started to bring me into.
You know, as I mentioned earlier, the apartment was covered
in blood. Can the blood patterns help them understand what

(11:12):
actually happened based on looking at that.

Speaker 4 (11:15):
Oh yeah, yeah, because you know, we can interpret we
can interpret blood velocity based upon the deposition. So you've
got cast off blood which comes off of a nine
or or a punch even slung onto the wall, okay,
and that's going to have a different appearance as opposed

(11:37):
to say someone that has punched adjacent pill wall. And
you've got what's referred to as low velocity blood deposition.
And then you have things like contacting smears and transfers,
like if you have somebody you can go and you
can go to one of these scenes that involves blood letting,

(11:58):
and if you have a fight going on between two
obviously healthy males perhaps we don't know one, you know
it's going to be vicious, okay. And so you can
have literally I've seen blood depositional walls where people have
roll standing up against the wall and it just kind
of transfers over almost like an ink roller if you will,

(12:20):
or ink roller. We'll just transfer dependent upon how saturated
clothing is and their skin as well. So yeah, we
can interpret movement, movement, and action based upon how the
blood is deposited on any number of surfaces.

Speaker 6 (12:37):
Yeah, interesting, Okay, I did not know that. Well, something
continually as we go along with this.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
So this is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're right
in the middle of talking about the death of thirty
four year old fitness grew Jacob Zeebenhood. Now, his husband
has been indicted for assault and burglary, but his husband
has not been indicted for murder. And that's got that's
really curious to me. If you want to know, if

(13:04):
you have something to say, give us a call. Eighty
eight thirty one crime. But I have an idea as
to why. So it says that he was indicted on
October first, which was, you know, nine days ago, and
this report finding of being a homicide is brand new, right,
So here's what happened. They had a grand jury trial.
I'm imagining there was some sort of presentation made to

(13:27):
the grand jury about the assault and burglary, and he
was indicted on those. It hadn't been ruled a homicide yet.
So I would imagine if they suspect the husband donald
of murder, there'll be another presentation to the grand jury
and he'll have new new charges.

Speaker 6 (13:44):
I would imagine that, now, can you. So those would
be a completely separate set of charges, like or would
they could they still keep.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
They't just add it. They'll add it to his current charges. Yeah,
or upgrade his assault charges to homicide. Okay, yeah, okay,
I'm not sure. I'm not familiar one hundred percent, but
right I imagine that's what That's what's going to happen,
is that within the next couple of days, the DA
will present you know, in some states, the grand jury
only convenes, you know, once a month, but in New York,

(14:13):
I'm not sure if you know, let us know, it
isn't thirty one crime, but next time they have a
grand jury, they'll they'll throw these in. Okay, unless they
you know, unless they have some sort of preliminary hearing
and they have some a trial about it, a mini
trial presenting those charges, but they'll probably have a grand jury.

Speaker 6 (14:31):
Okay, that makes sense. But Joseph, I have about another
question for you, Joseph, since I've got you here, because
I had I had questions as I was reading this
whole thing. They found his body slumped over the toilet, right,
are their body? Can you tell something by the position
of a body, like does that help you understand how
and when the attack might.

Speaker 4 (14:49):
Know, because yeah, absolutely, And what's really key here is
that this one gentleman is saying that he passed out
on the sofa and or he went to sleep on
the sofa or whatever. Is well, that goes timing, which
by the way, is something we're going to talk about
later on. Yeah my death. Yeah absolutely, And depended upon

(15:10):
the level of postmortem changes that have taken place in
the victim's body, we can begin to kind of ascertain
timeline that the husband is stating. Marys up with what
we're seeing scientifically evidence for us, it's well.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
We'll keep monitoring it up. Next, we're taking a deep
dive into the Ellen Greenberg case and responding to the
new suicide ruling that has everyone talking. Keep it right here,
True crimes Name.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
body Move in. Our beautiful sweet Courtney is off for
the night, hopefully doing something extraordinary and fabulous without us.
She'll be back tomorrow to tell us all about it.
But no sweat, because we have tah Adam and Sam

(16:08):
jumping in. They are ready to take your call because
it's scientific Sunday, and we have Joseph Scott Morgan, host
of the hit podcast body Bags, with us tonight breaking
down all kinds of forensics. So remember if you want
to jump in Live eighty eight three one crime please
do we love it. Or you could always leave us

(16:28):
a talkback on the iHeartRadio app. Just download the it's free,
by the way, download the iHeartRadio app. And then the
top right hand corner there's like a little microphone. You
just push that and boom, you leave a talk back
and then you get to be on the show. So
it's a zero stress and we get to hear your voice.

Speaker 3 (16:48):
So and if you don't think there's enough time, leave yes,
right them both, Yeah, exactly, leave two talkbacks exactly. It's
really just it's so.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Fun to hear your voice. And it was surely just
moves the needle for all of our hearts. So I
say that collectively. In fact, we have a talk back
right now, let's go to that.

Speaker 7 (17:08):
HI just just thought about Ellen Greenberg. It would be
interesting to know statistically how many women commit suicide by
stabbing themselves. It seems to me if a woman is
going to take her life.

Speaker 4 (17:20):
With a knife.

Speaker 7 (17:21):
She would do it in a tub to contain a mess.
You're in the kitchen, and to stab all over the place.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
It's she took the words out of my mouth. I
would literally was just saying the break. Women don't like
to make a mess, wasn't I toa She took the
words literally out of my mouth. Women don't. When when
women commit suicide, it's usually via you know, like some
sort of you know, purposeful overdose or poisoning of some kind,
because women want to be presented a certain way. Right,

(17:49):
we were vain, we're vain creatures like we just.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Are and as and we're considering we don't want to
leave a mess. And like, imagine you take your life,
somebody has to find you, right, somebody then has to
identify you, and there's a ripple to that. Sometimes that's
the intention, right, The intention is to leave a message

(18:11):
where somebody will find you and where somebody will have
to identify you. And that is a message that's a
pretty loud one. Is Statistically speaking, women typically have a
very different approach.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
Dare I say, is that accurate?

Speaker 5 (18:28):
You know?

Speaker 3 (18:28):
It's one hundred percent accurate. So, according to the CDC
data and forensic pathology literature, which I'm sure Joseph can
absolutely and educationally, so you know, chime in on. Less
than two percent of all suicides involve a stabbing, and
it gets even lower when you talk about women. It's
less than one percent of women will stab themselves. And

(18:50):
there's a lot of different reasons for that. You know,
it's it's so painful and prolonged and and sometimes unsuccessful,
like you know, you're not always successful, and it requires,
you know, overcoming this really strong self preservation technique or
instinct that we have in our bodies. You know, you're

(19:11):
you want.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
Resurvive, that want to survive, like humans want to live
through it. So even with ongoing trauma like a stab wound, right,
the human spirit wants to live through it. Right.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
Our bodies are instinctively, right, yeah, instinct like even though
you might want to end it instinctively your body but
actively fos against it. Right. And you know, women statistically
will favor methods to our talkback that are less violent
or disfiguring, such as you know, overdose or common monoxide poisoning.

(19:43):
It's typically the favorable method for women. And when self
stabbing does occur, it's most often superficial hesitation marks or
abandonment based wo abdomen based wounds. I almost had abandonment,
I'm sorry, you know, in the stomach area, not deep
penetrating neck injuries, you know, to your head, to your neck,

(20:06):
or to your chest. They're typically in softer spots. It's
and again this is just statistics. It's not every case.
I'm certain there are cases where it does happen, but
not in every case. And by the way, and Joseph,
I have a question for you about this hesitation marks.
One of the things in the Medical Examiner's new report
is that she said that she found hesitation marks when

(20:30):
it comes to Ellen Greenberg. And in this new report
that you know, ruled it a suicide once again. And
I did some research over the weekend. And hesitation marks
can be left even when it's intentional. Is that correct?

Speaker 4 (20:49):
Because almost testing the waters, if you will, Yeah, because
you know, I think, well, we'll see this with self
inflicted gunshot one as well. They'll be testifiring of weapons,
which always sends a chill if everyone's spawned when that happens,
and you'll go in and it's almost as if when

(21:09):
someone is looking to take their life. They want to
see if this is going to be effective, and how
are you going to measure this? You know, But I
got to tell you, relative to Ellen's case, one of
the things. Let me just frame this out from an
academic standpoint. Okay, we'll start there. When you consider her case,

(21:32):
all of us went to forensic academic meeting and we
had never heard the name Ellen Greenberg. Her case, had
it occurred somewhere else, would be presented at this academic meeting.
You'd be talking to a packed house. Because that's how
rare this is. In my practice as a death investigator,

(22:00):
I've handled to and I've said this on multiple platforms
and only one. Only one was a legitimate one That
was a male that was an ahnominal stab one. The
other one again a poor fellow who paranoid schizophrenia, thought
he had a microphone in his arm. See a had
put it in there and he was looking for the microphone.

(22:22):
That's really you know, if you want to talk about stabbing,
I've had cutting, you know, with razor blades and those
sorts of things. But this is this is a completely
different creature here. This is such an outlier, and I'm
so Glad. The statistics that you guys came up with
on this case are amazing because it really does demonstrate,

(22:45):
you know, first off, the difference between preferences I think
relative to gender, and secondly how rare this event is
and the fact that lightning struck at this moment time. Oh,
by the way, when she's standing at the sink and
cutting up fruit salad, so you've got this all laid

(23:06):
out on the counter, you're making a meal, and then
all of a sudden, it just overcomes you to do
this to yourself.

Speaker 6 (23:16):
And you know, Joseph, just for those listening who may
not be up to speed on the case, because we
kind of jumped into it after the talk back. Ellen Greenberg,
a twenty seven year old first grade teacher, was found
dead with twenty stab wounds in her Philadelphia apartment in
January twenty eleven. It was initially ruled a homicide by
the medical examiner, but weeks later that ruling was controversially

(23:38):
changed to suicide following a private meeting with police, halting
any criminal investigation and igniting a year's long fight by
her parents to challenge the conclusion. So that's where we stand.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
With it and her parents have given everything just to
jump in. Her parents really have put their lives on
the line, right financially speaking, to continue this conversation to
the extent that they have, and Joseph, you have lived
it on the front line, You're very close with the family,
just to keep.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
Their daughter's spirit alive.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
We are not discounting, by the way, and I just
think it's worth saying, you know, mental illness, anyone struggling
with mental illness and suicide. This is a real thing, right,
So there are factors that come into it, and we
are not making assertions that are with a broad a
broad brush, if you will. But this one's particularly troubling

(24:34):
because the forensics they just do not make sense. They
do not make sense her a mental background. And by
the way, I think we can all speak to the
fact that sometimes somebody's mental state maybe beyond the scope
of what we get to see in a person's life.
Sometimes things are happening behind closed doors or privately that

(24:58):
we don't know, right, So I think it's worth saying
though that on its nose, Ellen in a relationship, she
was engaged, she was a school teacher. She had some
anxiety about school, but nothing I mean get in line
for if we raise your hand by the way mine

(25:18):
is raised. If you have anxiety, you know we're gathered
here tonight on a Sunday night. Who doesn't have a
Sunday night blues. That's why I love this job so much,
because we get to have our Sunday nights together where
we don't have to be like stressing about tomorrow. We
get to be here. Not everybody has that. So mental

(25:39):
illness also aside, the forensics don't make sense.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
So it's important to talk about that, Stephan, And I'm
so glad you brought it up. So the claim is
that Ellen was experiencing severe anxiety and stress prior to
her death. Right possibly it was exascerbated by her medication
changes because she was recently reported to be prescribed zoloft,
which is you know, an SSRI for depression, and klonomopin,
which is an anti anxiety medication, and her doctor noted

(26:09):
that she had increased anxiety and possible early signs of
depression in the weeks leading up to her death. And
some people are theorizing that you know this which she
had a reaction to the medication, and it's called akathisia.
It's called akathesia or psychotic breaks that it could explain
an impulsive, violent act of self harm. However, the counterpoint

(26:32):
to that is that mental health struggles are common. They're
not you know, it's not like a rare thing. And
the extreme nature of Ellen's wounds she had twenty stab wounds,
ten to the back of her head.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, so both things are true. Let's assume that she
was having anxiety. It's extreme things, right, like, get in line. Yeah,
that both things can be true, right. I almost want
to put the anxiety aside for one second and again
to minimize it because it's very real, very real, and
everybody is going through their own version of that, and

(27:06):
we're all trying to find our tools. So maybe she
was switching up medications, et cetera. And men listen, mental
illness is a real thing, So let's put that aside.

Speaker 3 (27:17):
It's the wounds that's the counterpoint.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
That's where the that's where you get kind of loss
in the sauce from making an argument about this being suicide.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
It doesn't even seem plausible.

Speaker 4 (27:30):
No, no, you know it really doesn't.

Speaker 6 (27:36):
Is it possible to stab yourself in the back?

Speaker 4 (27:40):
Well, you know, that's that's one of the big, the
big questions, right, and many of us have said that
it's bo mechanically impossible. It's an improbability that she would
be able to do it. Maybe you could do it
a couple of times, but you're talking about you're talking
about over and over and over again with ten and
some people have even stated that some of these wounds

(28:01):
are communicating ones, which means it's hard to delineate between
two separate defects because they're overlapping. Here's another injury that
people don't really talk a lot about, and I can't
really call it a stab one. She's got a very
nasty laceration on the back of her skull, of her

(28:21):
head that is full thickness. That means it goes down
to the skull.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Can we sit there for one second? I almost don't
want to go further, Joseph, I'm jumping in here a
little bit hot. That laceration, I think is a real
sticking point. And again I'm not the expert. God knows
you are. And by the way, if you're just jumping
in this is true crime tonight.

Speaker 3 (28:45):
I'm staff. I'm here with body.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
Joseph Scott Morgan Taha, Sam and Adam in it for
our Scientific Sunday. But we're talking about the Ellen Greenberg case.
A really significant ruling has come down this week being
deemed a suicide when so many things would point to otherwise.
It's also the subject of our True Crime and Chill.

(29:09):
Even the title true Crime and Chill sounds very glib
compared to it word. This is so serious, so serious.
It is not a it's not a simple watch, and
we only would encourage you to watch it fully. And
what wild timing by the way, that this is out
right now on Netflix.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
Wild this is happening real times.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
That's incredibly interesting. Also just you know, you know, from
the heavens above perhaps, but Joseph Scott Morgan is really
breaking down what seems to be very obvious forensics that
last the head trauma, the laceration to the head, Joseph
without any more ado.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
Yeah, the length of it, I think, and the depth
as well, you know, and you know, if anyone has
ever sustained some kind of lacerating head injury, you know
your head bleeds profusely. And it's because our head is
so vascular. The brain, by the way, is the most

(30:16):
vascular organ in the body, so you have this blood
supply that's headed upwards and when you see this injury,
it would be if you've ever even bumped your head.
Now talk about pain centers firing all the time with
these stab wounds, But if you've ever even bumped your head,
and now you've got that, We're not just talking about

(30:36):
simple bump, right, We're talking about a lengthy laceration slash
cut that is a full thickness cut that goes down
to the skull, through the thickness of the skin and
the overlying tissue. And it's really overwhelming when you begin
to think about it. So it's impossible for us, Contrary

(30:58):
to what people think in these cases, we're we're doing
examination to actually sequence wounds. I think a lot of
people think that we can look and say this happened first,
this happened second. Oh right, you can't do that. You
can't do that. That's very difficult to do.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
And Joseph, I have a DM that I would like
to read, and because it's addressed to you, it says
DM from Kate. Kate is learning Kate, Thank you for
the DM. Joseph Scott Morgan is an amazing guest speaker,
love your Sunday episodes. What does he think of the
Ellen case? The quote unquote suicide that seems so clearly
obvious to be a murder, I mean stab wounds to

(31:32):
the back of head, neck and spine. Like what, thank
you so much Kate for that.

Speaker 8 (31:38):
So I kind of read it how I think she
wrote it, wrote it because it says like, what, So
what do you think, Joseph, Like, I mean, I kind
of know your feelings on this, but break it down
for the audience.

Speaker 6 (31:49):
What do you think?

Speaker 4 (31:49):
Hey, Kate, thanks for DM and appreciate it. And yeah, Boddie,
I gotta tell you. Okay, here's what I think. Why
is it that theme would be so compelled in order
to jump the homicide immediately they went with their gut
on it, and they went with what was scientifically verifiable

(32:10):
for them at that particular time. So what is it
after the meeting it was not documented. We just know
it happened, But what what happened in order to, you know,
take all of this scientific knowledge and your your assessment
abilities that you've been holding low these many years. All

(32:30):
of a sudden you have this epiphantal moment where you're
going to change this. That's what I think about it.
I don't understand it. I need that part explained to me.

Speaker 6 (32:40):
It was for people.

Speaker 4 (32:40):
Kind of meeting with a DA and a chief of
a police officer. It's going to change your mind all
of a sudden.

Speaker 6 (32:47):
You know.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
It's for people who don't know Joseph. So what happened
was it was initially ruled homicide after her after after
her death, it was initially ruled a homicide, and then
there was some kind of like clandestine meeting between the
DA and the police. Right is that right?

Speaker 1 (33:04):
Am?

Speaker 3 (33:04):
I following? Okay? And that and then it was like
a week later and then at that moment, the medical
examiner changed the manner of death to suicide. How often
does that happens?

Speaker 4 (33:19):
Rarely? Rarely do you have homicides become suicides. I've had
cases where suicides have become homicides. Sure, And I tell
you what, on Scientific Sunday sometime we're gonna do an
entire segment on stage and death.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
Let's do it, okay, because I think that's what happened here,
by the way.

Speaker 4 (33:37):
With that said, with that said, you rarely get this,
and you know, for there was a period of time
if I'm not misremembering here that they lingered on the
idea of this being an undetermined for a while as well.
So we've got we've only got five manners of death
to choose from. Guys, you hit on three of them,

(33:57):
you know you're gonna roll the dice on the other too.
I don't know, It's just that again, is one of
these things that's so befuddling about this entire case is
that you've got people jumping from left to the right
foot and now all of a sudden, we've decided with
this new document that's been published that we're solid now
we're going to call this a suicide.

Speaker 6 (34:18):
At this point, So IM going. I know, Joseph, you
looked at the document. I'm just curious that was there
anything new that you saw in it, or did anything
stand out that maybe gives you more insight into what's
happened or no.

Speaker 4 (34:34):
As a matter of fact, that it almost feels like
a doubling die down on the evidence as opposed, because
she's found more stab and she's also stating there's more bruises.

Speaker 6 (34:45):
Now correct, more bruises Okay, yeah.

Speaker 4 (34:48):
Yeah, so or contusions and I just you know, again,
I'm thinking, Okay, so we've got more evidence of violence here,
and you know you're saying this, but yet you're still
saying this, this is suicide.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
Can we start there for one second? So this more
evidence of maybe some contusions or bruising that may have
happened in and around this time. Does that speak to
the fact that maybe she was in an abusive scenario
somewhere in her life.

Speaker 4 (35:14):
I can't speak to Ellen's situation, but I know that
bruising and contusions are a measure for what we use
with any abuse case, whether it's involving adults, but particularly
as it applies to children, because it's it's the roadmap
relative to aging of an event somebody that's been in
dwelling in an environment for a protracted period of time
where they're subject to abuse. Contusions are one of the ways.

(35:38):
It's like our little roadmap, you know, because of all
stages of healing that an individual goes through with contusions, right,
and so you get you know, we can literally we
call them fresh fresh, fresh injuries, fresh bruises, fresh contusions,
and then we have these that are aged out. You
know where we're going and all of us can identify
with this because we get those funky looking, you know,

(35:59):
green contusions that are resolving the nasty yellow color that's
resolving until it's completely gone, and so you would you
grade those as you go through the process. And also
what's very important here is location. And one of the
questions I asked early on with both Sandy and Josh
when I was talking to them, I asked him, does

(36:19):
did Ellen have any problems with equilibrium? Because that's a
that's a legitimate question. I want to know.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
I'm always stop bruising. Yeah, I'm raised everywhere all the time.
However that's because I'm klutzy, right. Is it possible that
there was some place in her life from morning till night,
who knows, whatever her daily life was, that would cause
some level of bruising like this? Is that an indication

(36:50):
of something bigger or a larger story?

Speaker 4 (36:52):
Potentially, that's a good question. Also, one of the other questions,
just in case anybody's wondering about this, I asked, I'll
also ask about did she have any use with clotting factors?
You know, because you know things people that are impacted
and God bless you to do people that are impacted
by clotting issues. Where you bruise very easily, and those
sorts of things, you know, the slightest little bump, you know,

(37:15):
can it can present like that? Right, it's an evidence
of impact. Whereas if you don't have these problems, then
you're not going to draw blood even you know, a
sub from a subdermal standpoint, you're not going to draw
blood where it's going to present like this, And so
that's another question I want to ask. And also was
she on any kind of medications of blood center, was

(37:38):
she taking too many aspirin or anything like this that
could contribute to this? And the answers, you know, to
the best of my knowledge, at least, we're definitively.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
No, there's no external things.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
There's no medications that we could point to that would
suggest that any of this new bruising or any of
the issues that may have been underlying are.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
Big, right or obvious?

Speaker 2 (38:04):
No, and the likelihood of somebody maybe stabbing themselves this
many times and again I have a little inside scoop
here because I talked to Joseph so often about cases,
this one specifically that he's covered so deeply, and again
it gets wrapped up in like mental illness.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
Okay, So these are really big topics.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
That I even hesitate to dance around, right, because it
touches so many things. But for a young woman who's
having a very happy life, even though she's anxious. She's
a school teacher, she has a very anxious job, those
wounds do not seem to be in line with the

(38:48):
lifestyle that she has been living, right, And there does
seem to be some bruising, et cetera, which might And again,
this is now I'm saying this not this is not
based on anything. Sometimes people who are experiencing abuse behind
closed doors are the last to say it out loud

(39:08):
because it's really embarrassing and you don't think somebody will
believe you, or you don't want to out the person
who's doing that.

Speaker 3 (39:16):
And and there's a lot of air. There's a lot
of shame attached, right, that's a shame.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, talk about shame at the mars Coore level, Like
how could somebody is so smart and so bright, from
such a great family be succumbed to this? And what
will they think? So is it possible that there was
maybe more of a fabric there? Again, we're not, we're not.
We don't want to put disparaging thoughts on anyone in

(39:42):
her world.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
However, the forensics don't make sense, and.

Speaker 6 (39:48):
So much of us it's still such a mystery. And
to your point, Stephanie, if maybe there was some sort
of situation in the past, we don't even we can't
even look at her computer, laptop, all those things to
even see did she keep a record of, like a
diary of like all horrific things that were going on
that was all taken away by If I'm not mistaken,

(40:10):
someone can correct me. But I think it was family
members of the I don't think I can even say
alleged victim. I mean, I alleged. I forget Sam's last
name Sam. Just good correctance, so right, It's it's really
disturbing on so many levels.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
This is true crime today, and I heard Rader, we're
talking true crime all the time, or right in the
middle of talking about the Ellen Greenberg case and the
controversy that is surrounding the new medical Examiner's finding ruling
this as a suicide. Once again, I wanted to talk
about the hesitation wounds and if you want to weigh in,
give us a call. At eighty to eight thirty one
Crime I mentioned hesitation wounds in the previous segment, and

(40:49):
the medical examiner is saying a lot of the wounds,
you know, we say twenty, right, and she is saying
that most of them are hesitation wounds. They're not deep,
they're superficial. So when we say twenty wounds, I'm imagining,
oh my gosh, all these deep wounds. Well, she is
saying that they're mostly hesitation wounds, which is, if you
know you are possibly committing suicide by stabbing, it's likely

(41:13):
that you would have hesitation wounds, however, or the person
that's what I would have hesitation, That's what I'm saying. Yeah,
like the familiarity with your victim can bring on hesitation wounds. Joseph,
have you ever in your you know, a very lovely career,

(41:33):
You've done this thousands of times. Have you ever come
across a homicide where the victim and the suspect we're
familiar with one another and there were hesitation wounds like this?

Speaker 4 (41:46):
Yeah, And to use the term hesitation is is that
the contextualize that because it's it's that's associated with suicide,
And again that goes to paint the narrative of suicide. Okay,
because someone has to hesitate, and the person hesitating is
the victim, and the victim has been now identified as
a victim of suicide, which is self harm. So I

(42:12):
have seen hesitation wounds on individuals, and you know, categorically
it's always sharp force. Generally it is a slice as
opposed to a stab. I have not seen these wounds
identified necessarily as incized wounds, which are generally classified as

(42:34):
slices in sized or stab wound. Stab wounds rather are
puncturing wounds. Okay, now you know what I have seen
with sharp force injuries, with homicides. I've seen people tortured
with the tip.

Speaker 6 (42:49):
Of a knife.

Speaker 4 (42:51):
And so I've seen that happen over the course of
my career, where people have been taunted and yeah, okay,
if you want to go on that road, let's go
down it, you know, and kind of play this out, uh,
play this out, you know, Okay. Intellectually, you know, you
begin to think about, well, if if hesitation is our reality,

(43:12):
well what about you know what many people think that
it's a homicide, because yeah, some of these are in
fact superficial and I'll go, you know, to a great depth,
and not every single one of them are like that, right,
So I think that you have to factor that in
as well.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
Wow, And you know, I think it is important to
remember too that familiarity can make these quote unquote you know,
I'm going to use this term very loosely now that
I've been educated on it. Hesitation wounds that you know, uh,
if if you know somebody and you want to stab them,
let's say there's some sort of argument, you might not

(43:53):
be into it as much at first, and there might
be some kind of hesitation. I think that's what I'm
trying to say. It's scary, it is horrible.

Speaker 4 (44:03):
But at what point in time view begin does the
individual begin to to sensitize themselves to that where they
can finally, you know, go ahead and take that leap.
I've never seen point this many insults to a body
of this nature where you can correlate this. Now they're
out there, don't misconstrue what I'm saying. There are cases

(44:24):
out there that have multiple stab wounds in them, and
they are in fact an individual that has done self harm. Okay,
but again I go back to my to my earlier statement,
those are by far, by far, y'all the exception as
opposed to the rule, and you really have to take
the long view on this relative to this. And here's

(44:47):
the other thing. And I know that this is just
burrowing into people's minds right now. I know it because
I've there's not a single case I've gotten more DMS
on than this particular period. Oh yeah, by far. They're
asking what choices do the green Bergs happen?

Speaker 7 (45:04):
Now?

Speaker 6 (45:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (45:05):
Right, just let that sink in. They fought this fight
for so long. Where do they go now? Because you know,
I think they've both been quoted to say, at least
Josh has I believe that they feel like they've been
punched kicked in the stomach. That's where they are in
their minds right now, because they fought this good fight
for so long. Well, where where do you go now?
You know, this is not a judicial ruling that was

(45:26):
made just so alps understand this. This is a medical
legal ruling. This is not of the courts, right, so
we have to keep that in mind as well.

Speaker 6 (45:35):
Well.

Speaker 3 (45:36):
I guess the next thing would be federal some sort
of federal investigation. But in order to get that to happen,
don't they have to prove some kind of conspiracy happened
with you know, the Emmy or the police or the
DA And I don't know kind.

Speaker 4 (45:50):
Of official malfeasons because there's some side statute, you know, for
the FED, right, so that's that's problematic. I don't know
where they go for satisfaction at this point.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
Well keep it here on True Crime Tonight, we're going
to be doing Crime Lab. We're so excited. Joseph is
going to tell us all the things about how you
can tell when somebody died. Keep it right here, True
Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Stephanie
Leidecker and I head of Katie Studios, where we make
true crime podcasts and documentaries.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
We're doing a podcast.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
Right now called In Cells, and we hope you guys
will check it out, as well as the final season
of The Idaho Massacre, which has done this incredible job
of going through all of the information that we really
didn't have access to until now because you know, as
you know, Boddy Brian Coburger, you know, pled guilty and

(46:56):
therefore a lot of the documents that we would have
seen in trial have now been released. So knee deep
in that body are so great on both of these projects.
And by the way, Courtney's not with us tonight. She
has the evening off and hopefully she's having a great one.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
But taha, jumping in, jumping in in the hot seat
row on Scientific Sunday with Joseph Scott Morgan, who is
our beloved forensics expert and also the host of the
hit podcast body Bags.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Who is you know, carving ot time and his very
busy schedule to be with us to talk about so
many things. By the way, if you want to join
the Conversation live, please do eight eight eight three one crime.
You could also leave us a talkback, hit us up
on our socials, or you could also past a body
like I'm going to do right now.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
Yes, So this is one that Joseph actually brought to
our attention. So we're kind of learning about this together,
all right, let's this is this is an experiment. We're
learning about this case together, like it So, Joseph Nawakowski,
he was a career criminal. He died in nineteen ninety eight,
so you know many years ago he died. He has

(48:15):
been definitively identified as the man who brutally raped, tortured,
and murdered Catherine Blackburn in nineteen sixty four. And this
is one of New York's oldest cold cases. And this
has been solved through preserved evidence and modern forensic genealogy.

(48:37):
So on September thirteenth of nineteen sixty four, fifty year
old Katherine Blackburn, she's my age, I'm identifying with her already.
She was savagely attacked in her Albany home. She was
showing her apartment to potential renters. So imagine she places
an ad in the newspaper. Likely you know, back then,
I'm renting out my apartment. These people come and she

(49:00):
is savagely attacked while doing this. Okay, oh my god, terrible.
So she was raped, bludgeoned, stabbed, and burned with heated knives,
ultimately dying from blood loss.

Speaker 6 (49:15):
So so sad.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
So despite preserved physical events and early leads, the case
went cold for sixty one years. And obviously her family
has been devastated by this and stumping generations of investigators.
So I mean, this case has been sitting in the
police you know, headquarters for sixty years. Like how many

(49:38):
generations of detectives have picked up her file count? I mean,
like probably six. Right, it's very sad. So he was
officially named as her killer just recently in October twenty
twenty five. A breakthrough came in twenty eighteen, when detective
you know these spry detectives, I love it. Detective Melissa

(49:58):
Maury picked up that folder. She reopened the case and
partnered with doctor Christina Lane of the Cold Case Analysis Center.
All Right, using preserved crime scene evidence, a DNA match
was made between Nawakowski and a handkerchief found under her
body at the crime scene. So Nawakowski's body was exhumed

(50:21):
in September under a court order to obtain a DNA sample,
which confirmed the match. Authorities emphasized that Blackburn and Nawakowski
were strangers and that the attack was a total random
act of violence. Nawakowski he was thirty seven at the
time of the murder, and he had a violent criminal history,
including a nineteen seventy three assault on an elderly woman.

(50:42):
So like, nine years later he assaults another elderly woman. Right,
this is like a serial predator on the loose, A
serial predator for elderly elderly what kind of sicko?

Speaker 4 (50:55):
Right?

Speaker 3 (50:55):
Seven Joseph is right now, so hopped up in his
chair and taw.

Speaker 6 (50:59):
We're all we're all like, yeah, it's just it's horrible
to hear this because I'm forendsic questions for Joseph.

Speaker 3 (51:06):
I know.

Speaker 6 (51:07):
So.

Speaker 3 (51:07):
Family members, including nieces Sandra Carmichael and Mary Anne Simmered,
spoke at a press conference, calling the identification a miracle
and long awaited moment of peace. I mean, I can't
imagine how they must feel, their aunts or you know,
their grandmother, whoever they were to her, like, it's just
so sad. So they got some answers.

Speaker 4 (51:29):
Yeah, her, this is her niece. Let me give you
a time frame here. Okay, the niece actually went to
the house the victim's sister because she hadn't reported work.
She she worked in a brush factory by the way,
and she had rental. She's she was yeah, yeah, and

(51:50):
she was an entrepreneur, you know, and loved everywhere, was
really active in her church, very devout. The niece that
was there when this poor woman was discovered was twenty
when she was discovered. She got at the lectern when
they did this announcement. She's eighty one. Now, wow, just

(52:10):
let that sink in just for a second. Yeah, so
this has been a long time coming. As you can imagine,
the family finally, you know, has received some kind of resolution.
But the way the story kind of played out was
the fact that she was literally on the phone with
family and she said, oh, there's a knock at the door.

(52:33):
There's a knock at the door. I've got to go.
And so she hangs up and you can imagine cradles
cradles the phone on the old rotary doll phone and
goes to the door, opens the door, and there stands
Satan before her right and her room she was renting
was upstairs, so they had to walk up the stairs

(52:55):
and that's where she was attacked. Yeah, and the torch
that this poor lady went through for a protracted period
of time, they're thinking hours at that particular time. As
a matter of fact, the corner at he made a
statement way back then that this was a sadistic maniac

(53:17):
that did this, because I can only imagine they'd never
seen anything like this. She was bludgeoned, she was stabbed,
she was cut and in addition to that, whoever this
guy that was a perpetrator, he heated these knives on
the stove, and the stove was downstairs, so he was

(53:38):
having to travel downstairs and reheat these And here's the
really fascinating part to this very morbid he was creating
and they never say what kind he was creating designs
on her body. Oh and like patterns with the heated
tip of a knife. And so this is something that
he was enjoy But he made the big mistake because

(54:02):
he did, in fact sexually assault her. And this DNA
sample that he left behind, and again a tip of
the cap to the Albany police in this particular case,
because they preserved they preserved this very fragile evidence. Uh,
they found this handkerchief and it had seminal deposition on it,

(54:25):
which is a very rich source of DNA. And you know,
back then, let me take you back in time, just
real quick. Yeah, back during that period of time, the
only thing that we could do in forensics, and even
not too long ago when I first started in the field,
we couldn't do DNA. We relied on blood topping and

(54:45):
had siminal deposition or saliva. You're hoping that the perpetrator
that left us behind was what's referred to as a
secretor because there is a certain percentage of the population
that segrete secretes red blood cells into saliva any number
of bodily fluids, and you could type the blood. But

(55:05):
even if you can't type it all right, ABO you know,
blood typing, you're very limited. I mean you're very very limited.
Even the rarest blood I think is abab neg right,
And so that's that spectrum is very very negative, very narrow.
It's like, I don't know the numbers. Very in the past,

(55:27):
it's been like one in one hundred and forty nine people,
one in one hundred and forty nine people, I think,
or one hundred and sixty four or one one sixty four.
But when you begin to talk about DNA, you're talking
about billions, one in a billion, all right, But.

Speaker 6 (55:43):
That's like from the sixties, Like, what condition does DNA
have to be into? Less? I didn't expect you to
be able to store evidence for such a long period
of time with DNA? Is that common?

Speaker 4 (55:56):
Or is that most people can't going back on That's
why that's why this is such an amazing case and
the Preyers such a fantastic job, because you realize how
many floods, fires, changes in humidity, all those sorts of
things have happened. How many times has this piece of
evidence been transferred to another evidence locker or to a

(56:18):
new building perhaps since they had Do you think the
Albany police have the same evidence room that they had
in nineteen sixty four? Maybe they do. I have no idea,
but if I were a betting dude, I would say
probably not. Probably the fact that it survived and this
woman they finally have answers. I think the most bizarre
thing about this case is the fact that they exhumed perpetrator.

(56:42):
This is not a matter of trying to find somebody
that you know, find out who they are that's been
down for a long time, where you're trying to get
their identity. Now you're trying to get the perpetrator's identity,
and they dug him up.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
This is true from tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. Right in the middle of discussing
this kind of miracle breakthrough in a case the case
of Catherine Blackburn. If you want to weigh and give
us a call eighty eight thirty one crime, this is
pretty interesting. In doing my research to present this tonight,
I read about the police chief of Albany, and because

(57:16):
I really did think this was kind of astounding that
they preserved this so well for sixty one years, that
they were able to make this breakthrough. And again this
detective picking up that folder, that's all it took, right,
a fresh set of eyes. I just I love these
kinds of stories. I really do. So the police chief,
his name is Brendan Cox, and he thanked the Blackburn

(57:37):
family for being so patient and you know they're perseverance
throughout the years, and I just kind of wanted to
tip my hat. And he said. One thing that he
said that really got to me was the way that
this murder happened. He really believes that this this suspect,
Joseph Kowawski, has done many other things like it was
so sadistic in nature, and they wanted to make sure.

(58:00):
So that's why they exhumed the body, because they did
this DNA match through familial tie. So they here's what
probably happened. I'm just gonna lay it out. They probably
found a cousin on ancestry or maybe another Codis hit,
you know, something like that where they were like, oh, okay,
this is the you know this DNA that we have

(58:23):
on this handkerchief belongs to this second cousin right here.
So they did a family tree, okay, but they wanted
to make sure because he was so sadistic, and they
want the other agencies to be able to run their
DNA that they've got in their lockers against his DNA.
So hats off to them, because listen, exooming the body, right, Joseph,

(58:47):
this is a big deal.

Speaker 4 (58:48):
It is a big deal, and it's not easy to do.
One thing that judges hate to do is they hate
cracking open crip. That is just not their thing. They
don't like it. They find it a bit on bored
many times. And I understand why because just imagine if
you had everybody in the world that thought that their
loved one was a homicide victim, You're gonna have exhumations

(59:11):
going on, you know, all over the place. If if
judges were so inclined to crack crack graves open. So
to get an order of exhamation is a big deal.
I know. I always forgive me because I have soft
spot in my heart, a soft spot in my heart
for this. But I'm always reflective of the Tammy Davelle
case mouth her exhamation to that conviction. That was a

(59:34):
big deal, huge deal, and she was such a precious
woman and it was just you know, and that you know,
that's what can happen when this is positively you know,
used in a positive manner, but yet and it in
fascinated that your cousins somewhere can point the finger back
at you if you've done something bad.

Speaker 6 (59:55):
Right.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
By the way, we also, you know, it was very
painful and difficult, Joseph, when you and I started working
together for the very first time on Murdered and Missing
in Montana. It's a documentary that we were making.

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
For Peak's one of my favorites.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
You know, missing and murdered indigenous young women.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
What an epidemic.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
So Henny Scott, we exhumed her body and it was
during COVID and a really difficult task, right, you have
to actually in this case, in Henny's case, may she
rest in peace, and oh god, I think about her
every day. We had to get permission for every single
person who was buried around her to exhume her body.

Speaker 6 (01:00:43):
That's interesting surrounding.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
Yeah, yeah, think about it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
And by the way, until you're in that scenario, do
you not think about it?

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
But it kind of makes.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
Sense, right, you are disrupting soil, and you know, in
this case, although it wasn't sacred ground air quotes, of
course it is.

Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
It's a burial site.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
And we had to get verbal and written permission from
anyone who was buried around her, which is something you
don't think about, right, And people.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
Don't think about. Yeah, people don't think about the you know,
kind of the kinetic impact. You know that you have
all around an area where there's a body. And when
I said beautiful a minute ago, I didn't mean the death.
It's beautifully, as are all of the studios productions. It
was just it's a gorgeous thing to watch. But yeah,
the stories are so tragic in that case.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
Wow, And that is where your impact.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
It's been so great to get to play with you
all the time on such extraordinary important cases.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
All Right, the school bell is ringing, guys, the school
bell is ringing. It's crime Lab and Joseph is going
to break down how investigators pinpoint the time of death
not be late for class, Professor Joseph session, keep it right, heir,
True Crime Tonight, behun me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
Very Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're
talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lydecker. I'm
here with body Movin.

Speaker 3 (01:02:27):
Listen.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
Courtney is out for the evening and we miss her deeply.
Hopefully she's having the best time and we'll fill us
in all about it tomorrow. But listen, it's Scientific Sunday.
So we have Joseph Scott Morgan jumping in, a host
of the hit podcast body Bags, and he is going
to do this thing with us. It's like a little
news segment tah is there like a Q or is

(01:02:50):
like a.

Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
Yeah, like a little bit of a disco lamp, disco light.
What happens?

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Something gloss because it's called crime Lab Dune dun dum
crime Lab with Joseph Scott Morgan because we're all Professor
Morgan please.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
Yeah, yeah. Is it like a which is actually true? Right?

Speaker 6 (01:03:13):
Yeah, it's true, Professor Morgan.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
Yeah, professor he's a professor of every single day of forensics.

Speaker 6 (01:03:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
Yeah, so that's no joke. Just cut through flesh a
week ago for the first.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Time ever, passing out in the in the in the gab.

Speaker 4 (01:03:33):
My university has given me a gross lab now, so
wows it is yea.

Speaker 3 (01:03:41):
Anatomy is gross. It is you know, that means like
you have to slice into a human body. Learn they
gave in science class, we had to do the pig dissection.
I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. I would
never be able to. But how will you learn?

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
Joseph isn't the way of guiding hand. He has the
most extraordinary forensics lab. Imaginable people really do far and wide,
go only to Joseph. That's important to be able to
learn about just this. However, this is the things that
we talk about offline that I'm going to share. However,

(01:04:19):
at some point, imagine you're a student under Joseph's fine
tutelage at the most extraordinary university and it's time to
cut through flesh.

Speaker 6 (01:04:30):
Wow. Oh, I couldn't do it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:32):
I just couldn't know. People pass out students. It's super
important work. It's very serious, there's no messing around. I personally,
I think it takes heroes to do this kind of work.
So thank you Joseph. I could not do it. I
would literally pass out and throw up.

Speaker 6 (01:04:47):
I think you're.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
Supposed to, though, isn't.

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
I think Joseph would say, actually, all of those responses
are a human in a strong stomach, and that's actually
really great they are.

Speaker 4 (01:04:58):
And here's here's the big thing is that we all,
and this is something I've covered after many years being
around the dead, and I had this. We all have
an indwelling fear of death. Everybody does. It's hard to
get past it. And contrary to what people believe. You know,
kids right out of the police academy, they've never, for

(01:05:21):
the lion's share of them, have never been around the dead.
And you don't go to the at least in my area,
you don't go to the morgue to see the dead.
That just doesn't happen. So most of the time, if
they're out on the beat, their first death call that
they roll on as a police officer is going to
be the first dead body many of them have ever

(01:05:42):
been around in their life. So what I do at
Jack State is actually try to get through that membrane
of fear, because you know, if you're fearful when you
go out on a scene of the dead, you're not
going to be an effective investment.

Speaker 6 (01:05:57):
Yeah, and so you're going to be distracted person focus.

Speaker 4 (01:06:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
And so that's the exposure therapy on a sense kind.

Speaker 6 (01:06:04):
Of it is.

Speaker 4 (01:06:04):
It is, and you know, you try to you break
them in slowly, you know, and get them down there
and then understand, Yeah, I've had some weakknees, but I
was weakneed Uh, there's nobody, there are very few people
you've come across that that don't experience that kind of
unsteadiness and that sort of thing. And it's a foreign
environment and you're terrified. Yeah, but once you understand what

(01:06:26):
you're there for, and if you can purpose to that
and remind yourself of that, it makes it a lot easier.
And it's and look, I'll tell anybody this that asked me,
the best classroom I've ever been in my entire life
was the time that I spent in an autopsy room.
I learned more there that was applical in the field
as a death investigator than I did in any classroom
I ever sat in. So hopefully I'm passed along that

(01:06:48):
information to the next generation, I think.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
And it's very sacred, right, So the things that we're
talking about, even just this evening, right, we're talking about
very sacred information. So imagine, Joseph, is you know, desensitizing
something that's so sensitive. Can you imagine being a first
responder going to a death scene for the very first

(01:07:11):
time and having to actually make a report without your
emotions getting the best of you. It's close to impossible
if you're a human being, which honestly, we want humans
with real emotion doing all the things that we're talking about.
So I would suspect if somebody rolls into Joseph's course
and is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's cut into a

(01:07:32):
dead body, that's probably a red flag. It's not the
person who's struggling with it because they want to find
the answers and it's very disregulating.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
I would imagine I need to.

Speaker 4 (01:07:46):
Across several disturbing souls over the course of my career,
so yeah, that they wanted the grotesque nature of it.
And if that's what you're in it for, you're in
it for the wrong reasons. And we personally we don't
won't you in academia, but also also in the field
as well, because it's just not appropriate. You don't need

(01:08:08):
to have that mindset.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Well, listen, I'm going to be ringing the school bells
right now. Classes, session, class, ession, Sorry, bosses, it's my
job to wrangle us, Okay, I'm doing. I'm wrangling good
at it. I might add, wait, I'm putting on my
vest if you want to weigh in in this conversation,
we get a little off track with eight and eight
thirty one crime or leave us a talk back on

(01:08:31):
the iHeartRadio app. We're going to get ready to get
into this determining time of death? Joseph, So, how do
investigators this is a lesson, how do investigators determine the
time of death?

Speaker 4 (01:08:42):
Yeah, you're asking me a question. I'm going to ask
everybody on the path question, what do you think? What
is your default position when you begin to think, what,
in fact, what's the primary manner in which we determine
what's referred to as pm I post more minial. Okay,
Steph had her hand up first, go ahead, Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
I was my We did literally all had our hands up,
but mine was up first.

Speaker 4 (01:09:08):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
I believe that the manner of death, the time of
death rather, is determined by a first responder and given
the environment, they kind of back based on Well, I'm
getting stuck here already, but I well, look at you
two show offs. Okay, I'm gonna I'm going to go

(01:09:31):
have to go to body. It's like, sorry, tah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:34):
So I'm gonna imagine if you're writing unseen, you're looking
at two things, rigor mortis and livertone. Okay, well that
seems like so much smarter. This is learn on CSI
Las Vegas.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
I don't know if it was gonna say, I just
thought the person who showed up with a clock.

Speaker 6 (01:09:52):
Right now, I'm just gonna put my done cap on early.
But I was gonna say temperature, like I would assume
temperature sure of a body would probably tell you.

Speaker 4 (01:10:02):
Both of you aid yeah, so okay, so I'll go
in and say, yes, you're right. It's generally the default
position for most people, and it's literally the least reliable.
Oh yeah, temperature is because it is almost completely environmentally
dependent and you have to assess this. This is not

(01:10:23):
something you can assess back at the more so it
has to be assessed at the scene and body to
your to your comment, yeah, core uh, liver temperature or
it's the densest organ in the body. All right, So
there are people that are out there that do liver temperatures,
and yes, it is precisely what you think. There is

(01:10:45):
a thermometer that is inserted into the liver. However, that's
problematic because if you've got a case involving, say multiple
stab wounds or multiple gunshot wounds, where you've got tracks
running all over the place, and this requires you to
actually make an incision in the body of that can
you imagine doing in front of a crowd gathered outside

(01:11:06):
and then you place an indwelling thermometer and you take
the measurement. You also have to do environmental measurements environmental
temperature measurements concurrently, and you do this over period of
time to try to see if there's concurrence relative to
changes in environmental temperature and changes in body temperature. And
it's a really heavy lift. I got towards the end

(01:11:27):
of my career where I would do primarily this. The
body is warm to the touch, the body is cool
to the touch, and that's as far as I would
go with it. So for me, it was always the
least reliable. And if you do it on one case,
you have to do it on all cases because that's
your primary assessment tool. So and it's problematic. You're having

(01:11:50):
to undress the body at the scene, which is something
you don't want to have to do. You're creating all
kinds of headache. It's just the data that you get
from it is worthless after you're out about twelve hours
after oculating how you were jumping.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
In with a question modulated a little bit. So just
one quick second for.

Speaker 6 (01:12:12):
Your audio tour, the second to go back.

Speaker 3 (01:12:15):
Ah, you had a question.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
By the way, I wish you could see Tah right
now with his headset on and recently like hydrated face
facial by the way, We're also going to instill because
scientific Sundays are are heavy, right and it's important because
and also many people are listening on Mondays as their podcast,
So we're going to do some like maybe some facials.

Speaker 3 (01:12:40):
Can we get like a hydrating mask or.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
Something that we can I like this collagen masks, Yeah,
the collagen mask, Like we have to do our self
care Sundays. While we talked about all these very difficult things,
you were dying.

Speaker 6 (01:12:55):
For a question of temperatures bodies, like maybe a nice warm,
heated mask my question, and I think Joseph is back
with us. I was just curious because I know we're
just talking about body temperature. Do they take the temperature
of bodies when you find one immediately? Like is that
one of the first things. Do they even do that again?

Speaker 4 (01:13:12):
And a lot of it's depended upon how soon you
get to the body. I'm reflective of the Idaho four, Right,
that took a protracted period of time to the remain
and so by that time the data is a bit
skewed relative to body temperature. Now that does not exclude
the other areas that we look in which I know,

(01:13:34):
what what are the other two? Does anybody know primarily
that we can do it to scene?

Speaker 3 (01:13:39):
I'll stay out. I mean, you know you can't stay out. Listen,
I'm not the teacher's pet. Okay, I don't want to be. Okay,
body for the wind, go ahead, stomach contents. Yeah, probably,
but that's that's done at autopsy.

Speaker 4 (01:13:53):
Yeah, we have to do that at autopsy on the scene.

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
The scene on the scene, so we've already determined what
the temperature of the human body is at that time.
We're set saying maybe some blood splatter and some obvious
indications of on the side, suicide, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (01:14:13):
Right, is it possible that it's.

Speaker 6 (01:14:18):
But this is to determine the time of death, So
I can't think of another factor out rigor We've.

Speaker 3 (01:14:26):
Got some more audio issues, but I'm going to fill
in for just a moment.

Speaker 6 (01:14:30):
For Joe out.

Speaker 3 (01:14:32):
So rigor mortis. It starts I think two to four
hours after you die. You start to like stiffen a
little bit. It keeps at like twelve hours and that's
when you're like really stiff. God, it fades again, like
it takes a day and then it fades and you
become loose. But then it comes back and it starts

(01:14:55):
off in like the your jaw area first and then
your limbs. So, for instance, let's say I don't know
if we have Joseph back, because I might not have
to speak here. Am I saying that right? Joseph? Yes,
oh no, sorry, something is goofy.

Speaker 6 (01:15:15):
It's like robot, a little audio issue. I have a
strong feeling we might have to yeah, do this lesson
another day.

Speaker 3 (01:15:23):
Well, no, I feel like we know where he's going.

Speaker 2 (01:15:25):
Is I'm going to just jump on a limb here,
if not to jump onto Joseph's head.

Speaker 3 (01:15:30):
However, I feel as though I.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
Spent a lot of time with it, so I believe
that if we're talking about the matt And by the way, Joseph,
I know you you're looking at me right now.

Speaker 3 (01:15:39):
So does not, with approval or disapproval, show me what
I've learned.

Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
What I have learned is that a very specific human Joseph,
for example, who has a sacred heart and an unbiased
mind to science, shows up on a scene and he
is is not through his personal opinion. He assesses through

(01:16:05):
a scientific opinion, as do all first responders. That's the goal, right,
And he's assessing environment, he's accessing temperature. Are there any
outlier scenarios that have not been taken into account thus far?
And body, you're looking down? What do you think I.

Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
Think I'm trying to troubleshoot Joseph's internet is what I'm talking. Well, no,
he said, No, I think you're right. No, I think
you're right. Body temperature.

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
We all want to look at stab wounds. And also,
you know people have said some gory things and trigger alert.
Blood's blatter, things that are vomit, things that are human
that might happen at a death scene. You need to
kind of have an assessment of that real time.

Speaker 6 (01:16:51):
So are you also saying like you look at the
blood to see how dried it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:56):
Is, how long you've been there, has a coagulated sure,
there's a temperature to that. So the and by the way,
is that temperature affected because it's in Miami. Is that
temperature affected because it's freezing, which, by the way, is
why body really environmental?

Speaker 3 (01:17:15):
Yeah, body farms each that kind of stuff, right, So
having these body farms in all these different areas of
the country is so important. Well, listen, thank you, Joseph.
Unfortunately your internet got kind of goofy, but thank you
so much for joining us here. You were just trying
to test us.

Speaker 4 (01:17:31):
No, no, no, the lesson this was the lesson he
was testing us. We will, in fact visit us again.

Speaker 3 (01:17:37):
We will, don't forget. You can catch more of Joseph
on his amazing podcast it's called body Bags. Stick around
because we've got more to dig into. We've been getting
your talks and coming up, we're going to respond to
some keep right your true Graham tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:18:04):
Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime.

Speaker 3 (01:18:09):
All the time.

Speaker 2 (01:18:10):
I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Body Move In and Taha House,
who was jumping in for Courtney Armstrong. By the way,
it is Scientific Sunday, big huge shout out to Joseph
Scott Morgan. We love was our below amazing forensics expert.
Just the best of the best, right, So we talk
about really tough things on Sundays. By the way, to

(01:18:31):
Sam and Adam, I hope you guys had a great
weekend also, So we're trying to incorporate. We're just this
is the things that we talk about during the breaks
that we're just going to bring you into, so you know,
like a little bit of like self care Sundays. People
say that's a thing and it sounds expensive, but it
shouldn't be. And where we every single one of us

(01:18:51):
did something today that actually was like really good for
us and just for our just general care. I had
Joe manicure and now I took them off and it's horrifying.

Speaker 3 (01:19:04):
If you have any tips, please let me know.

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):
My nails are so low that it looks like I'm
a psychotic bier.

Speaker 3 (01:19:11):
I swear not, but I don't know how they'll ever grow.
But on my self care of Sunday, I was hoping
to have my nails look better or maybe we can
just do a little like sheep mask or something something
that makes us to start the great. Yeah, if you
have any I like. I like those things that you

(01:19:32):
put under your eyes, that you put in the freezer.
They're close. Oh yeah, yeah, I like those in the
morning when I wake up and I'm so puffy. Yeah,
I put those on and it just kind of shrinks
me down a little bit. Maybe it's just me rubbing
my eyes. I don't know, but no, I'm going to
I bought us.

Speaker 2 (01:19:51):
Do you do You can't talk to us because you
have the greatest skin.

Speaker 3 (01:19:55):
It's a perious talk. Looks like he's like the words
wh sound like but like it's so cute.

Speaker 2 (01:20:03):
You do always look like skincare seems like something that's
a big priority for you.

Speaker 6 (01:20:08):
I did it first a year today, So this is
the first time I've done an actual professional, you know,
a real It's been a year. I know because I
just do my own stuff at home.

Speaker 3 (01:20:21):
So this is I do my own stuff. What is
everybody's home stuffs?

Speaker 5 (01:20:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:20:27):
What do you do so good? I do my nails
every weekend. I have gel I wish I could just
do yours for you. Look at mine right now? I know,
can you die and do my own? Embarrassing?

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):
They're actually like so thin that like if I actually
like scratch my shirt, which I'm doing right now.

Speaker 3 (01:20:43):
They like bend backward. Oh honey, oh no, oh yeah good,
and you know what that feeling is I do.

Speaker 2 (01:20:50):
It's the worst, actually, not to make something out of nothing,
but like I have to hold my hand and fists don't.

Speaker 3 (01:20:57):
Get I would not recommend getting your nails done and
I let them, let.

Speaker 6 (01:21:01):
Them feel up, get strengthened and heal.

Speaker 3 (01:21:03):
I would don't get like a clear coat, at least
like a strengthener and put them on your nails so
that they're not so bendy.

Speaker 6 (01:21:09):
You.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
I had a strengthened by the way off a cuff.
It was like a strengthener that I was told had
for mel to hide in it. But it really it
was like something that you put on your very weak
nails and they grew like weeds.

Speaker 3 (01:21:26):
You know what else, pregnancy pills, when your natal pills,
pre natal thank you. It is supposed to be good
for your hair. And really I've heard.

Speaker 6 (01:21:38):
That men can't take those, can they? Like if I want.

Speaker 3 (01:21:42):
Stronger nails, I don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:21:44):
I al feel uncomfortable.

Speaker 3 (01:21:49):
Sunday tips. I gave my coworker Mit all one time
because he had a headache, and I didn't tell them
they were mine all and he said it was like
the best thing ever. And I was like, oh that
was mit all. So it was for his period cream.
If you have period crems, we did solve those too.
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 9 (01:22:10):
Well, if you have any like Sunday tips, you know
what days are real, right, Like we get to hang together.
Our job is actually it's like such a beautiful thing
to get to be together into you and to sort
of like, you know, hunker in. So if you have
tips that you have to kind of make your week

(01:22:32):
a little better, we want to hear them, So bring.

Speaker 6 (01:22:35):
Them please, or additional tips for your nails because it
sounds like you need to.

Speaker 2 (01:22:40):
Nails I'm putting them under my armpits right now because
even just like using them, it feels like they're yelling
at me. So here's two better nails to come. And
then it matters because what we talk about is real stuff, right.

Speaker 6 (01:22:56):
Yeah, yeah, but sometimes we need that sort of we
need to think about something else a little bit of
a moment to care for ourselves because we are talking
about such heavy topics. That's why I actually like our
therapy Thursdays. And now it seems like we're going to
add a little bit of a self care Sunday, so
we'll figure out how to make that happen. But you
know what I care about. I care about talkbacks. Yes

(01:23:17):
you do, I do. Those are my favorite too.

Speaker 2 (01:23:19):
And your skin is so beautiful and I wow.

Speaker 3 (01:23:23):
So let's go to a talkback.

Speaker 10 (01:23:25):
Oh my god, it's Cricket from Connecticut and I totally
just sent you a talkback before I was ready. I
was talking about the services for mental health for people
who are incarcerated or otherwise, and I agree that it
needs to be addressed before the crime is committed and

(01:23:46):
even when they're young, and unfortunately, adolescent and young adult
services are so hard to find.

Speaker 3 (01:23:53):
Yeah, yeah, if that ain't the truth, I mean, I'm
still waiting. I'm an adult with in the United States
of America and I am still waiting.

Speaker 6 (01:24:05):
For my therapy. We have been talking about this since June.
I know, oh, body, that's crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:24:10):
I mean, imagine being elderly or a teenager, it's going
to be harder, or a crisis. In a crisis, I
want to guy and I have a minute now. I
imagine that mean, well, I imagine if I called somebody
and said, you know, I'm feeling like I want to
harm myself. I would be seen immediately. Thank god, I'm

(01:24:31):
not at that point, Like I just want to talk
to somebody, that's all. You know. I have been a
therapy in a couple of years, and this is a
you know, really heavy job. I'm working two jobs. I
you know, we all are. We're all very busy. It's
nothing's wrong, It's just I need to get back to therapy.

Speaker 6 (01:24:46):
Yeah, no, it makes sense. And if it's that difficult
formal for anybody to try to do what I can
imagine someone juggling, you know, jobs, has kids, who has
the time to keep trying to call a representative press
one for the the most ridiculous thing that people have
to go through this. So it's I feel like if.

Speaker 3 (01:25:04):
We like kind of started tackling mental health in this
country earlier, yes, and more often, and like made it
easier to access a lot of our problems would be.

Speaker 6 (01:25:16):
I agree, you know what I mean. Wow, Yeah, it's
that's a heavy, heavy and serious talk back that that. Yeah,
we are actually going to do some shows down the
road that have a lot to do with incarceration. But
I want to get some experts on and maybe in
some way, shape or form, talk about that that side
of it as well. Yeah, you know, how how we
could prevent It's.

Speaker 2 (01:25:37):
A funny thing, right because we are we're we're a show,
so we can't really prescribe therapy. No, true, however, we
we can access it a little bit. Like I don't know,
we're all kind of in it together and we are
talking about such the stuff and the world is heavy

(01:25:57):
right now. What are some basic tools that we could
all be like learning together. By the way, if you
have any, share them, we all want them. We're all
seeing the same content. It's not as though we're immune
to it either. We're all so we we I'm going
to speak for myself. I like get down on my

(01:26:19):
knees and pray sometimes because it's it's heavy.

Speaker 3 (01:26:22):
Yeah, it feels hard.

Speaker 2 (01:26:24):
I pray for There's any single person who has been
on this show as a victim or a victim's family
member that I have not prayed for every single night.

Speaker 3 (01:26:35):
Since it's just in the world that we live in.
The kind of person she is, Like, if you know
Stephanie in real life, you would know she's very caring.
I'm over carrying a little bit like she's such a
kind person. If she says she's praying for you, she
really is.

Speaker 6 (01:26:52):
I do believe.

Speaker 2 (01:26:53):
And I don't even know what that means, because there
was a time that I was like, really, thanks for
the prayers. That means nothing because I'm in pain and
those so I get that too. So I'm not prescribing
things when I say prayer. It's whatever the world. But
I know that we can do better together, and I

(01:27:14):
know that I feel better when I'm with you guys,
And I know I feel better when I'm with you
guys talking about tough stuff in.

Speaker 3 (01:27:23):
A world that seems a little bit disconnected.

Speaker 2 (01:27:26):
Yeah, I still like lost in the sauce sometimes myself
and I study it and we take it very serious.
So we're not trying to water it down again. We
have no there's no agenda other than if you know
how to like get through it better and.

Speaker 3 (01:27:48):
I like the skills. Well, thank you so much Cricket
for that.

Speaker 11 (01:27:54):
Yeah, Hey, lady Stephanie from Ohio, just another quick merch suggestion,
because we love our furry friends, how about like some
dog and cat shirts that also say allegedly allegedly allegedly
because we know they get everything. Love the banter, love

(01:28:15):
the stories, Love you ladies, Hope you have a great day.

Speaker 3 (01:28:17):
By Oh. Pet merch is like my do you guys
know that that is one of the most booming industries
in the United States? How much money? Okay? So we're
doing like some Halloween stuff, okay, on true crime tonight.
I'm really looking forward to it. So I went and
got a bunch of facts about Halloween. One of the
things I learned in getting ready for our Halloween spectacular

(01:28:42):
is that during Halloween, Americans spend seven hundred million dollars
on pet.

Speaker 6 (01:28:49):
Costumes, just the pets, pets just like.

Speaker 2 (01:28:54):
That doesn't even include I'm too, and I am a
little like blanket.

Speaker 3 (01:28:59):
I am a woman without children. I was not blessed
with that ability. Okay, but I have I treat my
dogs like you know, they would be my kids. So
I am one of those seven yeard million.

Speaker 6 (01:29:10):
Did you dress?

Speaker 3 (01:29:13):
You have pets that are treated better? It is the
Ivy League of Pets. It's really you are the greatest
pet parents. So I want I would love some true
friends tonight. Pet merch is what I'm saying, like a
cat a cat T shirt that says don't f with me.

Speaker 6 (01:29:33):
That's cute with me.

Speaker 3 (01:29:38):
Okay, So here's the question. Here's the question.

Speaker 2 (01:29:42):
This is a soft ledge. We have to have a
larger combo about this. But when we talk about merch,
we're making it. By the way, Sammy who she sent
us mugs, Yeah, yeah, we're well, there's been like a mailbox,
it's coming coming. The idea is there, and merch would
imply that like we're somehow going to benefit from now,

(01:30:05):
which feels weird so that I don't know what the
answer is, like dedicated this is a bigger conroo that
maybe we have it with iHeart, but like maybe there's
like a advocacy thing. I don't know the way that
we don't want to like benefit some merch. We all
could like pay some bills, but it doesn't feel like.

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
That's the spirit.

Speaker 5 (01:30:27):
I know.

Speaker 3 (01:30:30):
We're all sort of we're all sort of scratching.

Speaker 2 (01:30:33):
At like, hey, what's all like invest in something by
the way, invest the vest getting in.

Speaker 3 (01:30:43):
Time, but like that.

Speaker 2 (01:30:46):
Wasn't intentional, but like if we did, could that lead
to something?

Speaker 3 (01:30:51):
Yes, that was like around us.

Speaker 2 (01:30:54):
I don't know what that is and I don't have
a I don't actually have a plan there, but we're just.

Speaker 3 (01:30:59):
Talking about loud.

Speaker 2 (01:31:00):
It's talking out loud for us to think about because
that's we get stuck in the sauce about merch. We're
going to give away merch, right, that's what we're doing
that right, that's coming.

Speaker 3 (01:31:12):
By the way, what it's solo is role ever, like
this is a.

Speaker 2 (01:31:15):
Promise is coming maybe the holidays, it might be February,
but like.

Speaker 3 (01:31:21):
We're on it. We're on it.

Speaker 6 (01:31:23):
Ish.

Speaker 2 (01:31:24):
We're a small team, you know, all of us. This
is the team that's doing it right now. So when
if we're not wearing it, you can't.

Speaker 3 (01:31:31):
Have it yet. But we're close because we all want
to wear it too. But I don't thing we want
to benefit from as I guess where we get lost
in the sauce.

Speaker 6 (01:31:41):
Yeah, anyway, I don't think I like your initial idea
of maybe the proceeds go to some sort of organization
that like the.

Speaker 3 (01:31:48):
Gen Do Foundation that identifies maybe it's a new one everything.
If we're maybe an mm idust.

Speaker 2 (01:31:55):
With the we have that or vests with a true
crime tonight with a little pepper spread And I'm feeling it.

Speaker 3 (01:32:02):
I'm feeling the go go bag. I'm down, like that
I feel like I should like the pet situation allegedly
allegedly allegedly high fives.

Speaker 6 (01:32:15):
I think now I'm dying to know the body. What
is your pet? What was your last pet Halloween costume?

Speaker 4 (01:32:22):
What was?

Speaker 3 (01:32:23):
They make these really cute dog specific costumes. And Lemon
Lemon was a little hot dog, mad A Lemon and
Yogi Yogi was a little bat and they had it's
like a vest and has like bat wings and stuff,
and he was a little set. And then Mochi, Mochi,

(01:32:44):
my cat had she had a pumpkin shirt, but she
was very unhappy putting it on. I will tell I
don't know that dog. I don't love it.

Speaker 6 (01:32:52):
They don't like it, but it's my cat.

Speaker 3 (01:32:55):
Is my cat?

Speaker 6 (01:32:56):
Cats hate that kind of stuff. But the dog is
the cutest. Did you ever see like the videos on
Instagram where they dressed a dog like Chucky with the
little they're walking around the little knife for the It's hysterical.
By the way, I'm down.

Speaker 3 (01:33:10):
Do you have Rita dressed as dress Rita the cat?

Speaker 2 (01:33:14):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:33:15):
I tried to. I've never put clothes on her properly,
but I tried to put a leash on her and
she just absolutely.

Speaker 6 (01:33:23):
Listen.

Speaker 3 (01:33:23):
I miss my dog. He passed Dodgers so much. I'm
ready for a new one.

Speaker 2 (01:33:29):
I'm soft launching the idea, so we're putting it out
in the universe. However, here's the thing. We're up for
your suggestions. Eight eight eight three one Crime and listen tomorrow.
A lot of things about Epstein through Crime tonight. Stay safe,
We'll see you tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (01:33:46):
B