Epstein Revelations Continue, Human Remains Found in Suitcase, and a Deep Dive into Munchausen by Proxy Abuse

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Monday, September twenty second, and
we hope you had a great one so far. Thank
you for being with us. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here as
always with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven and yes, we
have a stabs night of headlines on this happy Monday,

(00:41):
so listen. Alex Acosta, the US District attorney responsible for
Epstein's controversial air quotes Sweetheart Deal, faced the House Oversight
Committee on Friday and we have yet to unpack that. Also,
Luigi Mangioni, his lawyer, wants the death sentence provisions off
the table period. He's been back in court controversial stuff,

(01:04):
and we talked about it a couple of weeks ago
when we were talking about the documentary Unknown Caller and
the idea of Munchausen's disease or syndrome or Munchausens by
Internet as it's now been named, and we all wanted
to know more. We heard about that a little bit
when it came to Gypsy Rose and her mother suffered
from this. So we have an expert who's with us today,

(01:28):
also a survivor of Munchausens. So we're going to do
a very deep dive into that in the second hour.
But first let's talk about the latest in all things Epstein,
Courtney Armstrong welcome, fill us in. There is a lot
to get to.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
So yeah, former US Attorney Alex Acosta, he testified on Friday,
and as you said, it was behind closed doors to
the House Oversight Committee. This was to defend his two
thousand and seven plea deal with Jeffrey Ebstein. So acostam
there were evidentiary weaknesses. Jeffrey Epstein, of course, is the

(02:05):
wealthy financier, and he and his long term associate Gillen Maxwell,
orchestrated an extensive, many decades running sex trafficking operation that
targeted girls, many of them underage, often recruiting victims under
false pretenses and from high schools in some instances, and

(02:26):
you know they were exploited in an international sex ring.
Epstein was arrested again in twenty nineteen, but he died
in jail. Circumstances are very suspicious. Officially, there is no
question that it was suicide, but many people who are
knowledgeable in the field have expressed their doubts with that.

(02:49):
And Gilain Maxwell, she was later convicted and sentenced to
twenty years in federal prison for her role in the scheme,
and as we might remember, she just recently was ungraded to.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
A far more minimally lax prison. So major stuff. I mean, look,
this is major stuff. At the end of the day.
This is also kind of brought upon given all of
this cry from the public and from victims for there
being more transparency when it comes to any of the

(03:22):
files or documents or videotapes or audio from the Epstein files. Right,
there's this allegedly a mound of things, and everybody wants
to see it. Right. So Cash Pattel, the current FBI director, says, look,
this happened back in the day, you know, back in
two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, at a

(03:42):
different time, under a different administration, with different people. A
deal was struck, and yeah, maybe it was an air
quote sweetheart deal. Alex Acosta was the then Department of Justice, attorney,
the US attorney, I should say, and listen, that's a
brother side for the Southern District, and that's a very
high level job. Right. And now at a couple decades

(04:03):
we're going back in hindsight because at that time Epstein
was brought up on state charges in Southern Florida, South Florida,
not federal charges, big distinction, and those state charges allegedly
equaled kind of a wah wah in terms of it
being a real good sentence. If you'll remember, he served

(04:25):
maybe eighteen months. He had work release, like he got
to do things out and about in the real world
during the day and had to check into his jail
at night for shut eye, which is pretty by all standards,
outlandish for a sex offender, right who's been found guilty
and pled guilty.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
So we get that, yeah, but it you know, as
you said, there has been such an outcry from really
universally in this country, and so you know, this was
really warranted for alex Acosta to have this to go
before the House Oversight Committee. So as the top federal
prosecutor in Southern Florida, it was a Costa's office that

(05:08):
handled federal charges, and it also depended upon cooperation with
the state prosecutors who controlled the aspects like work release.
So there was maybe a little bit of distancing that
Alex Acosta said, you know, he wasn't doing all of this,
And initially Epstein was only charged in two thousand and

(05:28):
six by the Palm Beach State Attorney's office with a
single state prostitution count, and yeah, which was interesting.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
I hadn't been aware of it. I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
Yeah, Acosta approved this two thousand and seven non prosecution agreement,
and it limited charges and required him to register, required
Epstein to register as a sex offender, but did again
rely heavily on state enforcement. So despite assurances from the
state prosecutors, the Palm Beach County authorities allowed Epstein the

(06:03):
work release during his jail sentence that you mentioned, Stephanie,
and over that Acosta has expressed remorse over because really
it seems like, you know, it really allowed him Epstein
to continue victimizing women and girls even while he was
right quote serving time.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
I mean, that is the accusation that has been said
by many since then, which is why it's so important
that we're talking about it. It's less about looking back
and pointing the finger and more about us like really
understanding it in with the benefit of decades of time. Right,
So let's just go there for a second. Here's Acosta saying, look,
these were different times. We had some unreliable witnesses. By

(06:46):
the way, they were very young girls, right, we are
talking sometimes fourteen fifteen, sixteen years old? Is this young
girls in very difficult circumstances. It was a different time.
Is it possible that, you know, maybe there was in
a unified chain of command for evidence. Maybe there was,
according to Acosta, unreliable sourcing, et cetera. He's also saying

(07:10):
that he didn't really pay that close attention to some
of the details or read the witness statements, which is
theget let's just like pause on that and gulp and
try to move on, and that he didn't really find
them particularly credible at that time. That's a tough one
to hear, right, So out for all victims who have
not been heard and not been believed. That's a real

(07:31):
crush to the heart. Yeah, But is it possible that
in today's day, given the new information, perhaps he would
act differently. It appears he's saying, yes, it was poor
judgment and wish I had Okay, And I guess that's
the larger question, is what would we do differently given

(07:53):
the today's circumstances, Because according to Alex Acosta, these women
weren't particularly credible. Here we are now flash Froward, twenty five,
almost years later, and we have twelve women on Capitol
Hill screaming from the rooftops in Unison with the exact
same set of tales and stories, and still we're finding

(08:14):
it hard to believe. And that's a tough spot for victims.
It's a tough spot for victims.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
And you know, I wonder if part of what Acosta
said about, you know, his potential lapse in judgment and
that he might have viewed things differently. You know, I
don't think we can minimize how big of an awakening.
Me too was so true, you know, true that really
the tides changed in a really substantive manner. So you know,

(08:42):
that did not exist, and it is when we thought
everyone was quote crazy, all of these women never was
at the case, but that was a pretty accepted narrative.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
It's so true that has changed. Yeah, I never thought
of that.

Speaker 4 (08:58):
That's a really good point to me that you know,
me too, kind of changed some tides, and it might
have you know, given the benefit of hindsight, Acosta might
have maybe handled things differently.

Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yeah, right, Is that what he's saying, Well, he said
he he said that he would have handled some things differently.
And there also are some reports that suggest Acosta was
advised or pressured by senior DOJ officials. I don't have
precisely any of the names, but there has been no
direct evidence that he was ordered to quote back off

(09:31):
of the case. Which that's interesting if that, if that
is indeed the case, who were these officials?

Speaker 4 (09:38):
This is your Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. Right now, we're
right in the middle of talking about alex Acossa's testimony
before the House Oversight Committee. If you have thoughts, we
want to hear from you. Eighty to eight thirty one Crime.
I understand that it's being reported that he was kind
of combative. Is that what we're learning that he was
kind of combative? Was he defensive?

Speaker 2 (09:56):
Defensive?

Speaker 4 (09:57):
Defensive? Okay, so he was combative. He was just like
maybe defensive of his decisions. But I also read that
he acknowledges the mistakes that he made and says that
he definitely would or he definitely did believe the victims
and he would do things differently today, and he's kind
of admitting, yeah, yeah, I screwed up.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yeah, and like, okay, so let's take that at face value.
And I think moving forward, one of the things that
seems glaring and staggering, frankly, is that if there were
inconsistent testimonies by victims, the victims were kept out of
the loop of all of this. So that's also not
allowed in today's times. You know, victims have to be
kept abreast. And remember Epstein was saved, if you will,

(10:41):
by this deal from facing federal charges. Fast forward years later,
he's now facing those federal charges once and for all,
which is where he dies. That's when he allegedly, allegedly
allegedly commits suicide or has his life taken. If that
had been a federal case, the victims testimony would have
been public record. Instead, it was this like facacta states

(11:05):
deal and this like little small case where it was
done in secrecy. And I think that's the glaring thing
that we hope to bring in today's times. Secrecy is
the problem. Right when these things happen quietly, it prevents
public accountability. It prevents accountability from those working on the case.
It also prevents accountability of victims misaccusing or not believing

(11:29):
the victims when they're screaming from the rifftops. You know,
that's a.

Speaker 4 (11:32):
Bad thing because they're young or inexactly or petrified. They're
scared and ashamed, even that none of this is their fault,
right or even a shame of this kind of thing
happening to you might keep you quiet. And that's what's
letting these things kind of grow exactly, right, is there's
no light being shined on it, exactly.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
And the concealment, the fact that the plea was concealed
from the victims, It wasn't until twenty nineteen. So what
are we talking about twelve years after the fact that
it was ruled unlawful and that you know, keeping that
information violated their federal crime victims' rights. So these victims

(12:15):
have been revictimized and revictimized and once again on you know,
Capitol Hill, as far as my money is worth, by
calling them unbelievable by some.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah, and that's such a terrible word to write, unbelievable.
We believe you know, if you've been victimized in any way,
we believe you. But it's a tough thing and we
just want to make sure that we're like figuring out
ways to sort of make these types of things not
happen again. Again, everybody wants transparency, but yet everything's done
in secrecy, making that impossible, and that's horrifying.

Speaker 4 (12:48):
I guess I'm kind of confused a little bit. Maybe
you guys can send, you know, shed some light. What
was the purpose of this oversight committee today in Acosta testifying?
Are they trying to like, is a past the buck
kind of thing happening here?

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Are they trying the word? But that's what's happening. Remember
Epstein operated over multiple presidencies, right, so you know this
two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, correct me
if I'm respectable with Obama even right, So now you'm
alo selected in two thousand and eight, right, which is
when this deal was struck. So there's been oversight for
many a Now we're in Trump Land and everyone's saying

(13:24):
cash buttel everybody's like Pam Bondi's like, there's no files,
there's nothing to see prove it. Let's see it and
they're like, well, we can't because of this terrible deal
made yesteryear. Okay, let's go back to yesteryear. Hey, alex Acosta,
welcome what happened yesteryear. He's saying, I did the best
I could based on the information that I had, which
was terrible. Sorry, I kind of feel defensive and maybe

(13:44):
it was poor judgment. But here we are. It's not
a crime. Now we can go to today's time and say,
you see that wasn't handled well, so we can't really
do anything about it. It's not us, it's them. And
then this loop continues, and in this loop, the victims
are still begging to transparency, and it's like this game

(14:05):
about just so the files, and like, yes, the federal
trial never happened because Epstein's life, whether he took it
himself or was taken by another allegedly allegedly allegedly those
their testimony never happened. So it's not public record. And
we're back in the same loop. Wow, do you think
we'll ever get out of it? Yes? I do? I
know you think they are going to show the files? Yes,

(14:26):
I do, you do?

Speaker 5 (14:27):
I do?

Speaker 2 (14:28):
I do? Maybe even this faith, yes I do. This week,
maybe this week. What do you know, I'm a fortune.
I have taking my head out of the scared, fearful
nothing is working mode and going into proactive and all
things are possible, and I believe it's the truth.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
Well, you know what, Stephanie, I'm here for it. I'm
hoping you're right. Well, stick around, We're going to continue
discussing this case and how Sarah Ferguson, remember Fergie Duchess
of York comes into play, and lawyers for Luigi Mandeon
seek to block the death penalty. Keep it right here
at True Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
All the time, so we're talking a lot about Epstein. Remember,
next hour we're also going to be unpacking Munchausen syndrome.
We talked a little bit about that, but much more

(15:26):
on that to come. But yeah, back to the Epstein
of it all. Alex Acosta, the former US district attorney
who basically penned or signed off on this air quotes
cushy deal that Jeffrey Epstein got back in two thousand
and seven, two thousand and eight, where he was kind
of basically slapped on the wrist and kind of giving

(15:47):
a very cush deal is kind of getting a lot
of criticism from all sides because maybe that deal allowed
him as a predator to continue doing what he was
doing to any other women thereafter, specifically ones that were underage. Terrible, terrible,
and they're not underage women, they're literally girls and we're

(16:08):
talking fourteen years old. Okay. So also, which I thought
was interesting, which also came up in a hot topic
in my head that I can't quite solve the riddle,
but I'm just sturn a missus sterin on it, is
the idea that at that time there was this infamous
co conspirator clause, basically a deal penned where Epstein's co

(16:30):
conspirators would not be tried or would not be investigated
or brought in for investigation. Right, that is what Geelane Maxwell,
his current co conspirator, who was looking at twenty years
on federal charges that she was found guilty of. That's

(16:51):
what she's claiming. Is the problem? Hey, remember that deal
back in two thousand and seven, in two thousand and eight,
and that said no co conspirators can be brought up
on charge? Is that would apply to me? What am
I doing here?

Speaker 6 (17:02):
Then?

Speaker 2 (17:02):
What am I doing here? Now? Add the added layer
of everybody saying, oh, we got to get those files out. Okay,
here are the files. Then we have Pam bondy oh
wait I saw the files or on my desk. Now
there's no files Cash, Buttel there was files. I saw
the files. Actually I never even really saw the files.
A lot of like, who's on first with these files?
If there was no conspiracy, why was there a co

(17:26):
conspirator deal in the first place? What is that? Why
the papering?

Speaker 4 (17:32):
Right, You're one hundred percent correct, your thought process is right.
So everything you just said I totally agree with. Why
is Glene Maxwell serving twenty years in federal prison? Although
be you know, she's in a cush you know, farm
right now or something crochet if crocheting and you know, cooking,
Why is she serving time If there was no co

(17:53):
conspiracor you know, you know what I mean, if there
was nothing to be seen and there were no you know,
victims or no trafficking to people, right, what we should
condicted of?

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, and why can't we see those files? Why are
we not getting that information? Just to solve that riddle? Right?
So that's where I get stuck, Like to what I
get stuck there too, and I just I don't know
where the story is. And those are the only ones.

Speaker 4 (18:18):
I think a lot of people are feeling the same
way stuff I think, and that's what's so hard to
get over.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
In this case. Right. One of the things that's so
hard to get over in.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
This case, well, there's no logic to it when you
lay it out. I mean, what you just laid out,
there's no logic to everything you said is true. And
so that's why it's so hard. You know, you're saying, oh,
it's a riddle. Yeah, of course, it just it doesn't
make any sense.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
So there's got to be something that we're missing. Yeah,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (18:45):
And it's not us specifically. I'm telling about the general
collective in general. Collectively. There's something that we don't know
that they don't want us to know. And when I
say they, I'm you know, talking about the big bad
man have vern over us, right, something that they don't
want us to know.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
I just don't know what that is.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
Well, that's part of what allegedly is is what this
oversight committee was going to do, And FBI Director Cash
Bettel said the need to determine quote who dropped the
ball across federal prosecutors, local law enforcement, and the DOJ.
So allegedly they're probing what is who is at fault

(19:23):
within those eases?

Speaker 4 (19:24):
Okay, but that doesn't answer the question though, passing it
off to two thousand and seven or two thousand and eight,
you know, prosecution doesn't answer the question of why did
you tell us there were files? Why did you tell
us there were certain names in the files? Why did
you tell us there were files on your desk? And
now we're telling you're not you know, you're telling us
are no files. It's almost like look over here instead

(19:47):
right now?

Speaker 2 (19:47):
And that's my feel, And who's paying the bill? Like
what is the money trail here? I guess that's my
biggest Other part of that criddle is, you know, last
we all discussed this extensively. You know, it was made
as facts that JP Morgan and Deutsche Bank and some
very large banking entities. Why entities Hello myself included I

(20:13):
bank up both? Like what is what does that mean?
So like, let's follow the money. This is again taking
all partisan out of it. I think we've all had
plenty of that to go around in this exact surm.
So let's all table that, but follow the money and
why what is the why? Why are we all being
so weird about the files? If we care about the

(20:33):
victims and we believe in transparency and we have the
benefit of twenty twenty five knowledge post me to post
a new administration post, New Times post social media. We
have victims saying, please release them, release them. What's the
hold up?

Speaker 4 (20:49):
I think it's because people in power or form or
power that are still running around are in those files.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
I do.

Speaker 4 (20:57):
I just think it's a big boys club that they
don't want anybody.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Else to have access eyes on, like I just and
how is it possible that Elaine Maxwell as recently as
today we saw in the headlines that she's off for
a stroll. Imagine she's out and about having some fresh air. Meanwhile,
victims after victim is you know, still dealing with the
trauma of what was a crappy sandwich dealt to them

(21:23):
many many years ago. How maddening is that? And also
even if you're at that low security prison where she
now is or jail, I should say, how annoying is
that that you have a sex predator convicted? I might
add hanging out crocheting with you, which doesn't happen in
the real world. That's like, actually not a thing. It's
very unusual. We were trying to find other examples of

(21:44):
it and personally I couldn't. If you have more info,
please call us here to day three to one crime.
But like, it doesn't seem like it's the norm.

Speaker 7 (21:51):
Why I'm writ a loss for words. I don't know,
it's just why the craziest thing. Yeah, it's the craziest thing.
And it's like almost like an it's like a little
bit of an snl skit. At this point, everyone's like,
I got the files, Like, no files, pass it on.
I got the files, and then who's on first?

Speaker 2 (22:08):
And it's really harrowing because again at the center are
so many victims. They're saying up to thousands of girls
listen worldwide and this was a world world wide operation,
and many of the victims back to two thousand and seven,
two thousand and eight, we're literally being targeted per their

(22:30):
testimony or per their you know, interviews that we've seen
on documentaries, et cetera. That there were like black cars
following them around, threats against their family, threats against them.
Imagine being seventeen years old, and there's a groomer outside
of euorp or whatever our new word is. What's our
new word for grooming? Oh gosh, we have with so
many Okay, so we should part implementing it this week.

(22:52):
So you know, there's a high school being targeted for
somebody to literally look for girls that maybe aren't from
homes where mom and dad has check it into often,
get them in the massage club for Jeffrey Epstein, and boom,
Suddenly that two hundred dollars actually equals a bit of
a life sentence because now you've been victimized and you
can't get out of the circle.

Speaker 3 (23:14):
And I think the word when we are speaking about fourteen,
fifteen and sixteen year old is grooming grooming because the
distinction week because these are children. What we'd been talking
about was older and that was that was what a
coercive manipulation.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
But no, these girls were groomed.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
Listen, we are talking all things Ebstein, and we're about
to bring the royals into it.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
Oh, go ahead, Stephanie. I just before we even jump
off to the Royals, I just want to make one
assertion as well, because Diddy is back in court very soon.
We're osober third, I think we're looking at right and listen,
we've all talked about it's like this, it's like that.
But I do think it all is worth talking about
and unpacking. The idea of influence, money, hower silence, money

(24:01):
and power silencing victims is a real thing unless we
keep talking about it. And did he also doesn't have
federal charges against him. He's facing state charges and we
can debate all of that later, but something we should
be following and continuing the conversation about, because you know,
we want to make sure that there is now a

(24:22):
clear path, knowing what we know now in the current
day of where victims can go, how do they speak
out for them to be believed, and how do we
stop this type of thing from continuing to nausea? Right?
How do we give them power?

Speaker 4 (24:38):
Right?

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Exactly, exactly exactly. It's frustrating. So what's going on with
the royals? Sarah Ferguson.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
Sarah Ferguson, my mother, Betty, I'd be so please for
talking about her. Yes, So, the Duchess of York, who
is the ex wife, of course, of Prince Andrew. She's
come under some news scrutiny after a leaked email showed
her describing Epstein as a quote supreme friend. Yes, and

(25:07):
yes it's weird. I found the phrasing so odd myself
a supreme friend. And this is despite her previous public
condemnation of Jeffrey Ebstein. So this revelation comes amid all
of these ongoing scandals that involve Prince Andrew's extended contact
with Ebstein, the subsequent fallout from his association.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
With Ebstein and you know everything.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
That's the right shame he's brought upon the royal family really,
which I'm so interested in this that she has gone
from like she has turned towards Epstein in a time
when everyone seems to be turning away from him.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Wait, so this email is new, while of course this
email is new, so oh my gosh. Yeah, So okay,
here is what happened. So it's not new, but an
email in question.

Speaker 3 (25:59):
It had to do with a twenty eleven interview with
the Evening Standard newspaper, and in that she apologized. Fergie
apologized for accepting fifteen thousand pounds from Ebstein, and she said,
I abhor pedophilia and any sexual abuse of children. I
know that this was a gigantic error of judgment on

(26:19):
my behalf. I'm just so contrite. I cannot say so
this is what she said in the interview. Whenever I can,
I will repay the money and have nothing to do
with Ebstein ever again. But then the following month, Fergie
sent Sarah Ferguson sent an email to Jeffrey Ebstein in

(26:41):
which she humbly apologized for linking him to sex abuse.
What yeah, and she said to him, you have always
been a this is quote, a steadfast, generous and supreme
friend to me and my family.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
Okay, so he gets convicted.

Speaker 4 (26:57):
Let me just timeline this just for a minute, if
that's okay. It's convicted in West Palm Beach of this
prostitution charge and it's very public that you know these
he's been implicated and fiddling with minors, right, correct, She
takes money fifteen thousand dollars from him in twenty eleven. Why,

(27:17):
by the way, well that's a great pause, soft pause
right there.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
What's the fifteen k for? It's as like unpaid debt. Okay, well, interesting,
but let's put a pin for a minute. We have
to circle back to that. But we have to circle
back to it. So in twenty eleven.

Speaker 4 (27:35):
She does this, and then she gets caught somehow and
she has to apologize in the Evening Standard newspaper for
you know, and she says, oh, I you know, he's disgusting,
he's a pedophal, you know whatever, Okay, and then she
sends him an email and says, I'm sorry I called
you that even though he's been basically tried and convicted
for these crimes.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
That it's years after his conviction. Yeah, a spokesperson, so
it's four or so years after this Florida condiction. A
spokesperson claimed Sarah Ferguson sent the email to Jeffrey Epstein
after he threatened to sue due to her statement in
the interview. So I don't but I don't know why

(28:18):
it would be quote bad to say some of the
pedophile if they have been convicted for such, then it's.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Just a fact because she's playing both sides. And this
is what high power, influential people do. They pull you
in a corner and say do as I say, you
spoke out of line. I gave you money for we
should Definitely, I'm curious now we need to find out
why why is this? Like it's twenty four thousand dollars
I think is roughly the equivalent to the euros that

(28:46):
she was given. Why is Jeffrey Epstein giving Sarah Ferguson,
the ex wife of Prince Andrew FYI? Why is he
giving her cash? By the way, Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson,
not Fergie from the Black Eyed Peas, No, not Forggy
from the Black as a distinction, in case you're getting
lost in the shorthand they break up the divorce, Prince

(29:08):
Andrew comes down on the infamous charges brought up against
him by Virginia Dufrey, the blonde girl who's the lead
victim we've all seen the photo, who has committed suicide
this past April twenty just recently five, correct? Can we
just continue this for a little bit longer in the
next segment still, and I promise we can all move on,
of course, allegedly allegedly allegedly and.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
By the way, I have found the information for what
those fifteen thousand pounds are.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Courtney.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
Yeah, so we will be coming back with that information
and we are also going to be with Jordan Hope
later in the hour. Thank you, to share their story
of Munchausen by proxy. Abuse and now advocacy, and.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
We are kneede deep in all things. Sarah Ferguson, you'll remember,
she is the ex wife of Prince Andrew, of all
things the Royals and Prince Andrew also, you know, was
sort of targeted by Virginia Dufray, the victim, the pretty
blonde one who's infamously in that photograph with him, allegedly

(30:14):
at Epstein's townhouse in New York City. Virginia Dufray took
her own life April twenty twenty five, so obviously very recently,
she's not here to sort of speak to some of this,
but you know, the onion's getting peeled, and there is
a little I don't know why. Suddenly Sarah Ferguson is
jumping in and saying, on the one hand, she doesn't

(30:35):
like pedophiles, and she took money from Jeffrey Epstein fifteen
thousand euros, but then regrets that decision, And on the
other there's an email allegedly of her saying that she's
really sorry for saying that about him, which is wild.
It is wild.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
And it turns out that this fifteen thousand pounds about
twenty thousand US dollars is from none other than Jeffrey Epstein,
and it was to help Sarah Ferguson pay her former
personal assistance debt that she had to them. And this
payment because Sarah Ferguson, I don't know if you remember,
back in the day, she hit some really rough financial games.

(31:16):
And this payment was allegedly arranged by Sarah Ferguson's ex husband,
Prince Andrew.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
Oh really yes, to pay her. He was like the
intermediary like between them like that.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yes, So Sarah Ferguson was reportedly in financial distress. I've
heard her since speak on different talk shows about even
she took sort of endorsements that she wouldn't have, but she,
I don't know how you're a royal and then you
become completely well.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Because she weren't. They weren't they. They kind of kicked
her out of the club a little bit. They did
kick her out, and remember she was doing all the
weight watcher stuff back in then. We all loved her,
which is why they find this like a little We
didn't think.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
She was like the She wasn't like as beloved as Diana,
but she was more of like the down to earth princess, right,
that's kind of definitely.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
Yeah, yeah, she definitely was always seemed to be laughing
in the the Sons.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yeah, and the wild and a mother of two daughters.
So it seems a little out of alignment with a
mother of daughters who is talking about a convicted sex offender. Yeah,
but this brokeer deal.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
It was to pay her former personal assistant, Johnny O'Sullivan
because she owed him wages.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
Oh so it was to pay his paycheck. Yeah, No,
it was Sarah Ferguson. It was paid to all consistent.

Speaker 4 (32:41):
But she owed the cash and in her I'm sorry
in her statement to the newspaper, she said when I
can pay it back, you know, And that kind of
leads me toably she didn't really have the money at
the time to even pay Epstein back.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Right, however, Like that's the big smoking gun here, and
I'm going to try to stick with me on this train.
So if our beloved Sarah Ferguson has to take money
from said convicted, pled guilty sex offender, and then she
says I hate pedophile. Sorry, bad judgment, boop a boop,
but then says to him Jeffrey Epstein in email, Hey

(33:16):
sorry about that. I didn't mean to call you a
sex offender in the news, I take it back, Oops,
won't happen again, because she is feeling blackmailed by him
because she has debt with him somehow, and he's basically
saying he's gonna sue her right like he was coming
back hot, So had she not changed her tune, which

(33:36):
it appears at a desperate moment, money being a hard thing,
public opinion not in her favor. She's in a tough spot,
so it's hard to speak the truth. And Jeffrey Epstein
was coming back hot, basically saying you need to recant
that or else. That is the same playbook that every victim. Now,

(33:57):
imagine you're in high school or a young a girl
who's you know, not not experienced enough in the world
to to navigate this insanity and how nuanced this all is,
and your family's being threatened, and you're being threatened, and
there were black cars file and there's black cars following you,
and you're being told, well, you know, you asked for it.
Whatever the thing is. I'm making that up, obviously projecting,

(34:20):
but it's like the same rule book, like Fergie was
playing and getting kind of stuck in the same corner,
and it's Sarah Ferguson, a former royal. What happens when
you're just a princess, a regular person like the rest
of us, up against the guy. I also have I
gotta be honest.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
As much as I adored her when I was young,
I have a lot less sympathy for someone who's having
a deal broken by their ex husband to get money
from a at this point convicted pedophile to pay for
debt because.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
You have a personal assistant you can't afford. Yeah, just
saying yeah, I mean, that's so fair way to bring
it out. I'm just trying to highlight just this how
people get their stories crossed or so we hear Alex
the Costa say yeah, or unreliable witnesses yeah, because like
they're all being threatened, the stories are changing. You know.

Speaker 4 (35:10):
It's interesting to me about this whole situation is that
Jeffrey Epstein didn't demand a public apology. He wanted her
to be, you know, beholden to him personal. So true, right,
That's interesting to me in this whole thing that he
didn't he didn't say I demand you go to the

(35:32):
newspaper and retract your statement. It was a private email
with just them. It's almost like he wanted her to know,
you're under my thumb.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
Under my thumb, and says every victim who's afraid to
speak out, they're under somebody's thumb, and it's so scary.
This is your crime.

Speaker 4 (35:51):
Tonight on iHeartRadio, we've been talking about all the Epstein,
you know, shenanigans that have been going on. Right now
we're going to kind of move forward. We're gonna talk
about Luigi, all right, if you want to weigh and
give us a call. Eighty to eight thirty one Crime Well.
Lawyers for Luigi Mandione seek to block the federal death
penalty in the United Healthcare CEO assassination case. They're alleging

(36:14):
political bias, constitutional violations, and prejudicial public statements made by
Justice Department officials.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
Specifically, wait for it, she's been in the news a
lot lately, Pam Bondie, Oh boy, yeah, so I know,
it's just a lot. Right.

Speaker 4 (36:31):
So, the defense is arguing they filed a motion seeking
to dismiss this fuck you know, this death penalty case.
Remember New York State. He has two basically cases, one
in New York State and one federal case. Right and
New York State doesn't have the death penalty, all right,
so they're arguing federal you know, in the federal case,

(36:51):
to drop the death penalty, and they're saying that Attorney
General Pam Bondi's public comments have prejudiced the trial. The
defense attorneys are claiming man Geom's constitutional rights have been
violated in six different ways, including all these prejudicial statements
and alleged unconstitutional conduct during the indictment. The defense is

(37:14):
also saying that the federal death penalty is applied arbitrarily
and that the Federal Death Penalty Act is constant I'm sorry,
constitutionally insufficient. New York officials have been accused by the
defense of over hyping the case. Do you guys remember
this scene where the helicopter land and you know, Luigi

(37:34):
gets off and there's like, uh, you know, the Mayor
of New York is like out there, there's shackles. Yeah,
he's in shackles, and it's kind of like this, you know,
this march in the skyline of New York is kind
of behind him and whatnot. It was very theatrical and
they're pretty unprecedented, it really was. And they're citing that

(37:54):
they're saying it was overhyped and you know, oh, and
leaking all the information about this, you know, quote unquote
manifesto and anti health insurance claims that you know, are
really kind of tainting any kind of grand jury pool
and jury pool. The defense is requesting that the court
either dismiss it altogether the federal indictment bar the government

(38:17):
from seeking the death penalty at all, or strike the
Justice Department's notice of intent to pursue litle punishment. So
basically they're saying, either dismiss the case or get rid
of the death penalty.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
What were Pam Bond these statements? Oh?

Speaker 4 (38:32):
Okay, So here's what she said. She did a press release.
There's a couple of different statements that their citing. She
did a press release at the beginning of April, and
she said this, and I'm gonna quote Luigi Manngione's murder
of Brian Thompson, an innocent man and father of two
young children, was a premeditated, cold blooded assassination that shocked America.

(38:55):
After careful consideration, I have directed federal prosecutors to seek
the death penalty in this case. As we carry out
President Trump's agenda to stop violent crime and make America
safe again. And this is the political bias that they're quoting. Okay,
so they're saying that this is not this is arbitrary.
This isn't like law. This is a political agenda. It
has nothing to do with you know, how the death

(39:18):
penalty should be applied. It's arbitrary to pursue your political agenda. Well,
it was also prior to the trial, right, it's also
prior to the trial. And then here's another one. This
is the big one, I think, because it's littered throughout.
It says on Fox New Sunday, Pam Bondi said, I
was a capital prosecutor. I've tried the death penalty cases

(39:40):
throughout my career. If there was ever a death case,
this is one. And this is the one that they're
saying is prejudicial. I have some excerpts from the motion.
It says, this statement alone is enough. This is from
the defense, by the way, Okay, this is Luigi Manngionn's lawyers.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
This statement alone is.

Speaker 4 (39:58):
Enough to produce the entirety of this case, the motion states,
referring to ban to Pam Bondi's comment on Fox News
that she's tried the death penalty case and that if
there was a death case, this is one. They're saying
that that statement alone is highly prejudicial, and that the
presumption of innocence has been ignored, and that they assert

(40:20):
Pam Bondi never once discussed the presumption of innocence or
that mister Mangioni might be innocent until proven guilty. And
that goes to the previous, you know, press conference statement
where she said Luigi Mangione's murder Brian Thompson was an
assassination in cold blood.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
I mean, the language is very specific. I mean that is,
I don't know, that's a tough spot.

Speaker 4 (40:42):
And then you know, of course they're using the political
motivation and this arbitrary decision to pursue the death penalty, right,
and they're saying based on politics, this isn't quote based
on politics, not merit. And you know, I can kind
of see where they're coming from, right like, because Pam
Bondi said, in pursuit of Donald Trump's you know, agenda
to make America safe again, we're going to pursue the

(41:04):
death penalty.

Speaker 3 (41:05):
I have a question, go ahead, no, no, no, please,
I was actually gonna say, I you know, I understand
both or I get both sides, and I think both
sides with the grain of salt. They're, you know, the defense.
They have to put up this incredibly rigorous defense, even
with the you know, as you said, oh under make

(41:28):
you know under Donald Trump's America. But honestly, if you
swapped it out and just said, as Americans, we need
a terrorist like this, paraphrasing off of our collective streets,
I'm not saying the defense is a bad argument.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
I'm just saying they would have to make one. They'd
be making one. Whatever.

Speaker 4 (41:49):
They're gonna pull holes in anything they can, right Courtney.
I mean, they're their number one goal right now, is
not you know, to Luigi, you know, off on all charges,
They're number one right now is to save his life.
Right That's their number one goal, and they're gonna do
everything they can.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
To do that.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
Isn't this the same playbook though that happens in every
high profile self Or is it really Pam Bondi's job
to be impartial at this stage? Yes, Innocent until proven
guilty a huge tenant of our constitution, so important we
all take it so serious and should is that her role?
I don't know the answer. It's literally a question, so

(42:26):
if anyone say it. Well, also, it sounds like she
needed her allegedly allegedly allegedly mug because yes she does.
She was being a little maybe you know, she was
stating something as if fact, as opposed to if this
is the guy, we should seek the death penalty.

Speaker 6 (42:46):
Right.

Speaker 4 (42:47):
So to answer your question, the defense is contending that
normal capital case review processes were bypassed and that the
decision was made and publicized without allowing defense input, review
ora full investigation. So to answer your question, we know
what is pan Bondy's like involvement. Well, apparently all these

(43:08):
review processes according to the defense, this is not according
to body movin. They they're contending that all those review
processes were completely bypassed.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
So I don't know, and I don't know how legit
that is either, right, Like, well they did that with
Brian Coburger too. Wasn't he not starting to get a
fair trial because everybody was jumping in and I was
very against it. It turns out I was totally wrong.
But yeah, we don't try people in the press before
they have a fair trial. Period. The ends exclamation point
like high five put it in bold letters. That's like

(43:37):
a real tenant. I don't know. Well they called that,
you know, that purp walk they did that. They did.

Speaker 4 (43:43):
Remember, we're just talking about the helicopter and the sky
line behind him like it was.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
It was like a Smith movie. It really was. See,
the guy did shoot a He shot a man in
New York City, in cold blood while people were just passing.

Speaker 4 (43:56):
By, and he did plan it based on his manifests
are saying this is the defense contends that the arrest
in public display were very staged. They said it was
a dehumanizing, unconstitutional perp walk where he was televised, videotaped,
and photographed, and that authorities made Manngium's arrest into a spectacle. Now,
I don't know, Like, what is that going to do?

(44:18):
Hard to you that he made a spectacle of himself.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
When at six am and people are trying to get
their cup of Joe and go to work, he pulls
out a gun that he has created at home with
this three D printer.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
That's a spectacle too. Yeah, and how about all of
his little carvings and engravings. And I'm not defending either
side here, but I see all sides. You know, he's
he's very performative in his murdering ways, meaning he's putting,
you know, engraving into the casings, and he's leaving a manifesto.
And the monopoly the monopoly money. Yeah, the monopoly money.

(44:51):
Give me a break. So there was a statement to
be had which in and of itself was performative. And
therefore you can't be annoyed by the performance. You cannot
order a hot chocolate and be mad when the hot
chocolate comes boom. It's a question, deep thought. That's a
new saying. I learn something new every day. And listen,
we hope you are learning much from us. Stay with us.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
After the break, Jordan Hope is joining us and they
are a survivor of Munchausen by proxy abuse, a turned
victim's advocate.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
They will be joining us and we're thrilled. True Crime Tonight.
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here, of course,
with Courtney Armstrong and body move in. Listen. That first

(45:45):
hour just flew by. If you missed any of it,
that is no problem at all. Please catch it as
a podcast just a few hours after we wrap. Yeah,
it's a very complicated way of saying, just catch it
as a podcast after the show, and if you want
to jump in and join the really important conversation that
we're having eight at eight to three One Crime, we
want to hear from you because we have an important

(46:07):
guest and we're so happy to have you here, Jordan Hope,
who's going to really share their story about survival and
inspire us with their ability to really overcome a topic
that we've been talking a lot about, this idea of
Munchausens by proxy or Munchausens by Internet. A quick reminder,

(46:30):
I think it really came to at least my knowledge
when we saw Gypsy Rose Blanchard in her you know,
terrible tales that she went through at the hands of
her own mother, who was basically, you know, forcing her
to be in a wheelchair and to be subjected to
many surgeries and stuff because by Gypsy her daughter being

(46:51):
in a kind of a sickly state, mom got some
weird like like praise for it for being a devoted mother,
you know, caring for an ailing child. Then recently we
discussed it in our True Crime and Chill two weeks ago,
Unknown caller, which really highlights Munchausen's by proxy by Internet. Jordan,

(47:13):
jump in if I'm messing any of this up, because
this is my layman's version. Okay, so that's why you're
here to sort of to school us on like what
it is and what it isn't. And again we see
it there. Guess what Mom is the one who is
basically saying, oh, my daughter is really going through it.
Yet she's causing the problem that's causing daughter to go

(47:36):
through it so that she can be praised for being
an extraordinary caregiver. That is like a really difficult loop.
Now imagine your Jordan Hope, who I get We all
get the benefit of seeing. Right now, We're so happy
you're here. Thank you for spending this time and sharing
her story with us. Who yourself? This is close to home? Right,
So you personally have lived in this exact environment where

(47:59):
your caregiver is Suddenly you're getting exposed to surgeries and
you're in there, you are and you're you're being you're
being made to be the sick child when in reality
you're not sick. And then only later does this come
to light. And now this is your your calling and
your life's mission, so to kind of break through some

(48:21):
of this confusion and answer our questions and if anyone
listening has some of their own, it's it's nuanced and
it's sensitive and it's really important. You know, we talk
a lot about it about men. This is like typically women, right,
So Courtney, you want to give us a little summation
of something and then we can join and just.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
A little bit of background before Jordan fills us in
on all of the all of the details. But Munchausen
by proxy abuse mb PA, it's a syndrome, and it's
syndrome where caregivers, most often mothers, they fabricate or induce
illnesses in a child or other vulnerable individual, and it

(49:04):
is to it's so this individual can gain attention for
themselves as well as sympathy. Approximately ninety five percent of
cases do involve mothers.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
It is a rare syndrome.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
About one percent of hospitalized children are in the throes
of it, which actually that seems one percent seems high.
It is also extremely dangerous and six to nine percent
of victims can die from the abuse. Experts believe real
numbers are actually much higher due to underreporting and difficulty

(49:39):
of diagnosis. Yeah, I would have to imagine that was
even more so if these caregivers are inducing illnesses. So
thankfully Jordan Hope is here and Jordan was suggested to
us by a listener and yay, and they are getting
a oh social master's in social work. And Jordan is

(50:05):
an advocate and also survivor of Munchausen biproxy abuse. And
they facilitate support groups, provide coaching to other survivors, and
present around the United States to help aid the treatment
and care of other victims and survivors.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah, it's big work. How are you. How are you?

Speaker 6 (50:29):
I'm doing all right, grateful to be here.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
Well, we're so glad you're here. Thank you for joining us.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
Well, I'll hop in with something since this is a
little bit what had another listener, you know, bring us
all together. I'm curious, what do you think that media
portrayal is it? Is it for better or is it
for worse?

Speaker 6 (50:53):
I definitely think both. I think that probably every answer
I ever give you everything with you on of course,
especially in this sphere. But I think you know, some
pros are definitely the awareness. I think having more media
talking about this does get more people also talking about this,

(51:15):
more people looking into it, more people interested, things like that. However,
I think there's also a lot of harm that happens
because of the portrayal. I think oftentimes when it comes
to munchilds by proxy abuse, the only portrayals we really
see are usually in like horror films or things like that,

(51:36):
like the movie It or the sixth Sense, or sharp
objects or things like that, which I think sometimes makes
it more sensationalized, makes it harder to believe that it's
actually real.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
And by the way, you have your caregiver, and you know,
to Courtney's point, oftentimes it's moms. We hear a lot
about narcissistic men, but this is sort of a case
in point. Hi, narcissistic women also a real thing, equally dangerous.
So here you are, You're a child, your lifeline is
your caregiver. Yet your lifeline is causing this disruption. So

(52:16):
it's a double pump in terms of asking for help
finding help, because hey, look, my caregiver may go away
even if the care is terrible and might have a
sinking suspicion some things awry. Now what because you might
not have another source. And if I'm correct me, if
I'm wrong. It wasn't until you were in college starting
to study this stuff that you recognize it in your

(52:37):
own life.

Speaker 8 (52:39):
Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely what happened. I had no idea.

Speaker 6 (52:43):
I mean, there were like little signs here and there,
but I had absolutely no idea.

Speaker 8 (52:47):
And I think something that.

Speaker 6 (52:48):
Always sticks with me is when you're a child growing
up in a home, like you have to believe that.

Speaker 5 (52:53):
Your caretaker is safe.

Speaker 6 (52:54):
Of course, like you will do whatever to make that
caretaker safe because you're a child, You're dependent on those people.
So it can be really complicated how everyone can even
be telling you things but it just won't won't click
because it can't.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
You can't. What is I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (53:12):
What is the biggest misconception people have about victims of
Munchausen biproxy?

Speaker 8 (53:18):
I think there are so many.

Speaker 6 (53:20):
I think one of the biggest misconceptions specifically about victims survivors.
One is that I hear all the time is that
if someone is older, they'll say, like a teenager, then
they must be in on it, they must know what's happening,
they must actually have Munchausen's themselves and be faking in
all these things. And I think that that is so

(53:42):
far from the truth. I don't think that that's an
impossible situation necessarily.

Speaker 8 (53:46):
But I think that more often that's not the case.

Speaker 6 (53:51):
And I think the other thing is is that people
really tend to believe that either a person is sick
or they are healthy. So if you find out that
this person suffered or was a victim to much as
my proxy abuse, then typically people think, oh, well, then
that must mean that that person or that child is

(54:13):
fully healthy and has zero issues. And again that's just
like not true. We see all the time in the
research and just from the hundreds of survivors I've spoken
to that oftentimes there are real things that were going
on that are caused by the abuse, things like that
that don get so dismissed.

Speaker 4 (54:31):
I never thought in that, right, So you you know,
you go to the the go to the doctor because
your your your caregiver takes you and they perform some procedure,
and now you're sick because of this procedure, right.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
I never thought of that. Wow.

Speaker 6 (54:46):
Yeah, So yeah, I think that's one of the hardest
things is that that survivor's face is having to some
like I mean, for instance, every day, I you know,
thankfully my scars on my back. But I you know,
some survivors like go every day and have to look
at the scars on their body and know that that
was caused by this person that supposedly loves them.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
Wow, I'm sorry. So did you have when you were
growing up?

Speaker 4 (55:13):
Were you going to different many different doctors, because I
feel like that's kind of maybe like tell us their
story the black space here, right, The doctors they have
to know, like, if you're constantly going to the same
doctor at some point is going to be raising a
red flag, right, And now with everything being digitized, you
think it would be easier for doctors to cross reference

(55:35):
things and be like, Okay, well you know they were
here for this a week ago and now they're here
for this, Like what's going on?

Speaker 2 (55:41):
But does that not happen.

Speaker 6 (55:43):
It definitely, Yeah, there's definitely a lot of doctor shopping
that happens. Even I mean I grew up like a
really rural town, so I went from the same hospital,
but still just saw different doctors in that hospital and
they all knew. They all knew from the time I
was like one year old, maybe even younger than that,
they all were aware and I was never taken out
of the homes of this abused or anything like that.

(56:07):
I think the hard part is that sometimes they can
see what's happening, they know what's happening, but they also
get stuck between such a rock and a hard place,
so they can only do sometimes they can try to.

Speaker 5 (56:19):
My doctors did do reports.

Speaker 6 (56:21):
They did what they could right, they tried harmony action,
they tried as many things as they could, and I mean,
I think I'm alive today partially because of them. Wow,
But I still yeah, it's still well, you.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
Saw them a lot of grace, probably more than I would.
You're showing a lot.

Speaker 3 (56:36):
Unbelievable Yeah, And Jordan, just for clarity, so you said
that was such a certaintude. So the doctors have you
since seen seen the reporting or how did it? How
did it come to your attention that they were aware?

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Doctors were aware?

Speaker 6 (56:52):
I got so I got my records. So when I
was twenty two is when I first heard this term
and kind of flooded with all these memories. And then
I got all my medical records sent to me, and
during that time I saw I mean, there's much jobs
in by proxy written multiple times throughout my medical records. Yeah,

(57:15):
and I actually went and met with one of my
main pediatricians and she I thought I was going there
to reprimand her and be like I'm alive now thanks
to you, like all this stuff. Like I was ready
to really just like go at her, but she we
actually descried. We like sobbed together, and she gave me

(57:35):
a confidential file that had existed that had more information
in it. She's actually she went on the show The
Doctors with me, She was on podcasts with me. She's
she Yeah, we've actually developed quite a good friendship since then.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
But yeah, wow, that's unbelievable. I'd love to even hear
a little of your experience so that maybe listeners can
recognize that in their own world. Since we don't talk
a lot about it, it's hard to know the signs
if you're not discussing it.

Speaker 6 (58:09):
Yeah, I think for myself. So you know, I was
told I had severe asthma. I had a rare blood
disease called new chupinias or supposedly that's like why I
got sick more than other kids. I had all these allergies,
I had osteopenia.

Speaker 8 (58:26):
That's why I broke phones.

Speaker 6 (58:28):
Like all this sort of stuff, and it's very clearly
early on, I guess said doctors and everyone else.

Speaker 5 (58:34):
Was very aware, and sadly I would say what happened.
Because of that.

Speaker 6 (58:40):
Throughout school, probably early middle school, even later elementary school,
people started to kind of treat me like I was
the one taking things for attention, and I was doing
these things to get attention.

Speaker 8 (58:53):
But I thought I was dying.

Speaker 6 (58:54):
I thought there was something like so wrong.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
With So you really believe yourself to be sick?

Speaker 6 (58:59):
Yeah, I one hundred percent that I was sick. I
like I One of my most vivid memories is I
was in fifth grade. We ran the half mile and
I had a severe as my attack. I thought I
was dying, and I got brought to the nurses station
or the nurses room, and like all these adults, like
the principal, vice principal, guidance counselor, all stood around.

Speaker 8 (59:21):
This bed and I thought I was dying.

Speaker 6 (59:25):
But they didn't call nine one one. They called my
mom to come pick me up, So I'm assuming that
they must have known I wasn't dying. My little brain
didn't recognize that. But when I got out to the car,
I suddenly could breathe suddenly I was fine, and I
told my mom, oh, I think I'm okay now, and
my mom said, no.

Speaker 8 (59:43):
You'll die if we don't go to the er right now.

Speaker 6 (59:46):
So I was probably having an anxiety attack, of course,
but it was things like that that would happen all
the time. And because of that, sometimes I would like
purposely breathe faster, or I would exaggerate symptoms because I
was like, if I the doctor is telling me that
this isn't real, I have to show them that it's

(01:00:08):
real so that I can get out right. And I
think that that was yeah, very misconstrued.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Wow, by the way, Yeah, the placebo effect.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
Also, you know who hasn't like taken a Oh this
is going to make you feel better, and then you're like, oh,
I feel.

Speaker 9 (01:00:23):
Great, right because the mind is so powerful, right, Or
I know this specific medicine is going to fix whatever
I've got, right, So I'm going to play that up
a little bit to make sure I get that medicine
crom care or whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
Well, listen, this is true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're
going to be continuing this conversation with Jordan Hope discussing
munchausen biproxy abuse and their incredible story of survival.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Stick around.

Speaker 4 (01:00:48):
We have a lot more to cover. Give us a
call it eighty eight thirty one Crime. This is True
Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lydecker here with
Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven, and we are talking about
a very important topic, Munchausen's by Proxy, joined by Jordan Hope,
who has survived this literally real time. So you've lived it,

(01:01:26):
You've gotten to the other side of it as a victim,
your mom suffered from this. And again, just to kind
of bring our listeners a little bit up to speed,
not to not to truncate too much, but essentially Munchausen's
by proxy is the caregiver. Oftentimes mom is pausing harm

(01:01:46):
or inflicting harm on their child, like as if it's
a surgery or an illness or something that requires care,
so that mom or caregiver could be applauded for their
greatness for being so devoted, so hands on, so in
touch with their child, when in fact they're actually pausing this,

(01:02:08):
which is abuse, right so, Jordan, you lived this with
your own mother. So just hearing your version of this
and how this played out with your own mom does
really shed a light. So thank you for sharing. Yes,
thank you. How did this play out with your own mom?

Speaker 6 (01:02:25):
Yeah, so kind of the way that I actually played
out is like I talked about, you know, there was
all this stuff kind of growing up when I was younger,
with the being sick all the time and this were
blood disease and things like that, and just getting poked
and prodded all the time, and eventually as a teenager

(01:02:47):
I ended up actually I did get taken out of
the house, but it was not for anything to do
with one child in my proxy, so I had no
idea still about that. But when I was around the time,
unfortune and my mom.

Speaker 8 (01:03:01):
Kind of went through some stuff and convinced me that.

Speaker 6 (01:03:04):
She that I, like was having all the stack pain,
which I.

Speaker 8 (01:03:08):
Probably was having back pain. I was a gymnast, I.

Speaker 6 (01:03:13):
Also had gone through a lot of trauma, and trauma
comes out through different physical pains and.

Speaker 8 (01:03:18):
Things like that.

Speaker 6 (01:03:20):
But my mom kind of convinced me that I was
having such severe back pain. So we went doctor to
doctor and after doing a million different types of treatment,
physical therapy, quarter zone shot, taking vicoin as a teenager
for a pain. We finally found the doctor that I
was willing to do surgery, and I had an L

(01:03:43):
five S one final fusion at the age of fifteen
or sixteen that was completely unnecessary.

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
And your body is so growing at that age too,
you know how dangerous that is.

Speaker 6 (01:03:58):
Yeah, so sorry, Yeah, I mean I remember doctors like
I remember giving like a letter from a doctor saying
like that they wouldn't do the surgery, that it was
a bad idea and things like that, and thinking, well
I can't walk or and having such pain, this is
the only thing that'll make it better. Uh, but shocking
me now, actually I have sonic pack pain and two

(01:04:20):
rods and four screws in my back. That's all the
rest of my life. Versus probably just needed their years
only now. Yeah, So it kind of for me continued
until I fully left the house, and I would say,
even after I fully left the house, it was no
longer near her. I still kind of carried on this

(01:04:44):
sick identity in a lot of ways because I didn't
I didn't know, not because I was trying to anyone
MM hmm, exactly. And I didn't know, of course, right,
Like I had no idea that I wasn't sick, Like
I thought, oh, this had a means x y Z
that they needs this, this means I need to go
to the er, like I had no sense of how

(01:05:07):
to actually listen to my body or what is ever
telling me?

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
Of course?

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
And Jordan, what do experts believe causes Munchausen biproxy abuse?
Is it genetic? Is it triggered by a trauma or
life circumstance.

Speaker 8 (01:05:26):
That's a great question.

Speaker 6 (01:05:27):
I think that you know, first of all, I would
say it's something that a lot of people say, and
I know you guys have said an event, but I
would say that it's something someone suffers from. So it's
like it's in the DSM as facticious disorder and pose
in another as a mental illness. However, the way that
I and many other experts in the field see it.

Speaker 5 (01:05:47):
Is it's abuse. It's a type of abuse.

Speaker 6 (01:05:50):
There might be underlying things happening, right, So there can
be a lot of different things. Sometimes we see personality
or attachment disorders, or you might see more of like
a psychopathology sort of stuff going on with like lack
of empathy or things like that. So it really just

(01:06:12):
kind of depends, I guess, depending on the person. A
lot of times that we see people that sometimes you
see it more as there might be more of like
a child torture sort of element, where it really is
there's like something that the person is getting from causing
this harm. But sometimes you also see more of somebody

(01:06:34):
who is just meeting and looking for that attention and
that sympathy and that care and not knowing how else
to get that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
Wow, that's an interesting thing. I never I've never heard
that stated so clearly and again, and I get a
cold chill. So it's two part one. I always sort
of assumed it was because, mostly because I watched All
Things Gypsy Rose right, that it's the devotion of being
considered a heroic parent or mother for taking such good

(01:07:04):
care hurt exactly how does she do it? Oh my goodness,
can you imagine? I could never. I could never, And like, meanwhile,
she's getting a free house from you know, everyone's devoted.
It never occurred to me that it's straight up like
statistic that you're getting you're torturing and abusing your child

(01:07:25):
and getting I'm sort of a kick from that, and
I don't know that.

Speaker 6 (01:07:30):
Just kind of yeah, I think we see all sides
of it, right, Like, so we see all of those
different things, Like, I mean, my mom was a gymnastics teacher,
she was a cheerleading coach, she had a daycare.

Speaker 8 (01:07:43):
My mom was always around children.

Speaker 6 (01:07:45):
She was well known in town and she did a
lot with kids, and everyone for a long time thought
that she was super loving and great and caring and
all of these like she was always happy and things
like that. But we've also seen and hurt from other
survivors who that wasn't the situation. I would say oftentimes

(01:08:07):
we hear a lot more from the people who their
mom is a teacher, their mom works in social services,
their mom's a nurse.

Speaker 5 (01:08:16):
There's a lot of these types of spaces, which typically
that makes it.

Speaker 6 (01:08:20):
Extra hard to try to prove that this is happening,
because typically this mom is seeing as a good mom
and all these different things.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
Wow, you are listening to True crime tonight. I'm Courtney Armstrong.

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker, Body Mooven and Jordan Hope,
who we are so lucky to have with us, and
they are both a survivor of and now advocate for
other people who have suffered from Munchausen by proxy abuse.
If you have any questions for them, give us a call.

(01:08:57):
Eighty eight three one crime. So Jordan, something you said
before the commercial break, and also piggybacks on how it
can be hard to ferret out if someone.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
Is a teacher, a nurse, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (01:09:13):
I was flabbergasted when you said that some of your
positions may have known from as early as when you
were a year or so. Aren't doctors mandatory reporters? And
where is that in this mix?

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
Because that really question.

Speaker 6 (01:09:31):
I think that that is such a big question now
we get all the time. But the reality is, like
I said, in my medical records, there was a report,
there was a report from a chisen bypoxy abuse, there
was video surveillance of over reporting as well as possible
induced vomiting by various means, and nothing happens. So sometimes
even when there is a report, even if they have

(01:09:55):
video evidence or things like that, sometimes there's still the
space that's in the system where things kind of fall apart.
And my pediatrician, and the thing that she always said
is like, you know, you can bring it to someone
and say this is happening, but then they're going to say, well,
do you want to get up in front of a
judge and jury and talk about how this seemingly loving mom,

(01:10:18):
that loving your child so much is child abuse? And
she I mean told me say to my feet that
it would have been better if my mom had like
thrown me down the stairs, broken my bone, because then
maybe she could have done something. There's no laws, there's
no laws that say it's illegal to lie to a doctor.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
And by the way, isn't that the case with so
much abuse? By the way, So just so I'm getting
this right, it's not a syndrome, it's abuse, right, So
for clarity, and much like so many other forms of abuse,
sometimes yeah, it's if only you could say, oh, they
throw me down, I fly to stairs, then it would
be like, wow, well we don't want that, you know,
lock them up. But if it's if it's not that

(01:11:00):
on the nose quintessential tied up in a bow abuse,
it's sometimes so hard to prove and therefore hard to
come forward, right, because it's confusing, Right, how did it?
What was a trigger point for your you and your mom?

Speaker 6 (01:11:14):
Yeah, there really wasn't for my childand I talked to
you stuff. I really had no idea. I left my
home when I was between sixteen to seventeen. I was
still in school, but I knew my mom was an
alcoholic as well, and so I left the home and
became homeless for two years and couch hopped the rest

(01:11:37):
of my high school years.

Speaker 8 (01:11:41):
But I still didn't know. I had no idea.

Speaker 5 (01:11:42):
I remember thinking.

Speaker 6 (01:11:44):
I used to think like I wouldn't use my inhaler
because I was like, I can just breathe and be
better than this and stuff like that.

Speaker 5 (01:11:52):
And I thought it was just some like superpower I had.

Speaker 6 (01:11:54):
Or that I was doing something really powerful.

Speaker 4 (01:11:58):
Your rain was so powerful, was like overcoming your health, right,
like yeah, you're yeah, I've done.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
That too, Yeah so have I Yeah I done it.

Speaker 6 (01:12:06):
Yeah. But turns out it wasn't even real. I didn't
even have a lunch, so you know, I had no idea,
but it really wasn't in It was in a psychology
class and you were just sitting there and the professor
started talking about munchous and which I had never heard of,
and I remember, just like I got.

Speaker 5 (01:12:23):
Flooded with memory after memory.

Speaker 6 (01:12:25):
I still have the note in my phone somewhere from
the notes I took, which honestly, the notes made no
sense when I look back at them now, I'm like,
I don't understand how I got here, but here we are.
Then I got everything sent and it just everything made
a lot of sense.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (01:12:40):
That must have been a terrifying moment for you, though,
to realize I'm a victim and you know, my mother
did this to me, that must have been incredibly terrifying.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
I can kind of.

Speaker 4 (01:12:51):
See the scene in my head right same like zooming
in slow motion, like the you know, the scary music,
Like I can just see it, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:12:59):
Yeah. Then that was only you know, twenty eighteen, which
is not that one ago. There wasn't anything for survivors there.
If you googled it, there was nothing. There was no resources,
no support.

Speaker 8 (01:13:12):
Do you nobody talk to there?

Speaker 6 (01:13:15):
I mean back then, there was nothing. And I reached
out to doctor Mark Feldman because that two pops up
from when you type this in and uh now, But
after that, I mean I did a lot of therapy
and a lot of like self reflection and things like that.
Now there is an organization mun Child's Support that I
am an independent contractor. With that we have resources, support groups,

(01:13:40):
things like that that we offer. But that's i mean,
very new within the past few years.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
So let me ask you something. This is like the
burning question.

Speaker 6 (01:13:50):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:13:50):
We all just recently watched this unknown number of the
high school Catfish and in that documentary, I think it
was either one of the law enforcement officers of the
prince said, I think this woman has Munchausen cyber Munchausen
or Munchhausen by Internet.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
Is that a thing?

Speaker 4 (01:14:06):
And do you think that this mother might have suffered
from this? Or I'm sorry no, let me rephrase that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
Do you think she might have had this?

Speaker 6 (01:14:14):
Yes, it is a thing. So doctor Marchaldman actually coined
the term, i want to say, in two thousands, and
we do see like a huge rise in Munchhagen by
Internet sort of behaviors. Now, so sometimes we'll see that
the child or even a person like might so somebody
might like be shaving their head but posting online that

(01:14:35):
they have cancer and joining like support groups online or
posting on Facebook on how they are or things like that. Yeah,
so sometimes now we see, you know, the person doesn't
even really have to be like making themselves sick because
it's all online, nobody actually like sees them.

Speaker 5 (01:14:51):
Or anything like that. And thing was sometimes what we'll
see them happening to a.

Speaker 6 (01:14:55):
Child or things like that, which I would say has
been a pretty big increase. And I think I see
this a lot on the TikTok or things like that,
where exactly kicking alive and they're at the hospital and
they seem happy to be sick and ill and they.

Speaker 2 (01:15:15):
Get gifts. Right, I've seen this, Jordan. Wow.

Speaker 6 (01:15:20):
So that's how it's because sometimes people like actually obviously
have illnesses and are in the hospital and educating for stuff,
and so it really gets tricky because it really it's scary.
It's so scary how many people you can fool by
doing these sorts of things, and how it injures and
hurts people that are actually chronically ill and struggling.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (01:15:43):
And yeah, I just scroll and I'm all of a sudden,
I'm in a hospital room with somebody and just like
Jordan described, bald Head and they're singing and accepting gifts,
and I'm like something's going on here, like this is
this is not right?

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
Wow? So I didn't realize munchausen Kin present that way.

Speaker 4 (01:16:01):
I always thought it was something that you know, you
have to inflict on someone else, but it can just
be faking your own illness for drifting money attention.

Speaker 2 (01:16:09):
I had no idea.

Speaker 3 (01:16:11):
Well, that would be the bi proxy part, correct, Jordan,
that makes sense, That makes total sense.

Speaker 6 (01:16:17):
Syndrome or facticious disorder and poson cell is I'm doing
this to myself for attention or things and then by
proxy is fathered.

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
Right, Well, listen, stick around.

Speaker 3 (01:16:28):
We are grateful that Jordan Hope will be doing the
same and they will be schooling us on the nuances
of Munchausen by proxy and sharing their story. Keep it
here True Crime Tonight, we are talking true crime all
the time.

Speaker 2 (01:16:54):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong. Body move in, and we're joined by Jordan Hope,
an advocate survivor of munch Houses by Proxy, which is
really an important topic that we're tackling based on We're
talking about our true crime and chill documentary Unknown Number.

(01:17:16):
I personally found it enraging and frankly a little irresponsible
for somebody who was committing harm to their child to
be highlighted. We literally saw it, Jordan, when the cops
came in and they're like, uh, young Lauren, who's this
little girl who's been like cyber abused. And mom is like, oh,
Jordan's go you know, Lauren's going through it. And then

(01:17:38):
they're like, oh, actually it was your mom. And you
see young Lauren's face and it looks like she's being
re traumatized by this experience, and I feels very irresponsible.
To me, it is horrible. It makes me so mad.
And then I see Jordan here so smart, eloquent and
sharing your story, and I feel mad for you also

(01:17:58):
that you would have to be you know, put into
a surgery back surgery, no less that could be life
altering and maybe perhaps is. I mean you're living in
It's like, come on. So it's such an important conversation
because how the heck do you know what to look
for in the world unless we're talking about it, right, So,

(01:18:19):
so thank you for doing that. And I know we
want to add some proactive, productive things to be looking
for for guidance and help should anybody listening and need it.

Speaker 4 (01:18:28):
Yeah, so let's just jump right into those those questions, Courtney,
do you want to go ahead and call fast?

Speaker 3 (01:18:33):
Yeah? What is the what is the first steps someone
can take or where can they go if they suspect
that someone is abusing their child in this way? I mean,
you know, as we spoke about before the commercial break,
it's not illegal to lie to your doctor, and that's
how that can get complicated and things can get missed.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
But what are action steps people can take?

Speaker 8 (01:18:59):
Absolutely?

Speaker 6 (01:19:00):
So of course there's reporting righty to CPS, CPSS, whoever
it is where you live, and that also can be
very hard and very yeah, very difficult. I've had situations
where I've called something in and nothing happens, somebody else
that I know calls it in and the child's taken out,

(01:19:22):
And it can just depend on who you talk to,
what you say, what they know, like so many different things.
But we do have an article that was kind of
written is geared towards CPS, but the article at the
end kind of has a like template that can kind
of help on reporting. So if you are someone that

(01:19:42):
maybe is a mandative reporter or I'll often send this
even to dads or other people that reach out looking
for what to do because I just find the template
to be kind of helpful to.

Speaker 8 (01:19:52):
Know what to put in there.

Speaker 6 (01:19:54):
It can also help, obviously the more people that see
what's going on have and people report, especially, you know,
if the child is in school, if you're able to
talk to the teachers or the doctors or whoever.

Speaker 5 (01:20:09):
It is that's kind of involved with care.

Speaker 6 (01:20:12):
Sometimes, of course they might not be able to give
you information, but that doesn't mean you can't give them information.
So sometimes those things can help as well.

Speaker 2 (01:20:23):
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:20:25):
I just I just want to really highlight that just
because they can't give you information about the child doesn't
mean you can't give them information.

Speaker 2 (01:20:32):
I think that's really yeah important.

Speaker 6 (01:20:35):
So when I was four, there was an anonymous letter
that was written. It was put in my confidential files,
so I didn't know better for a long time of course,
but there was an anonymous letters that someone had written
in to my doctor asking if my mom could have
been if the symptimes I was having could have been
caused by pills for crones or cancer because my mom

(01:20:55):
had access to those and it made this person worry.
But we knew and you were seeing those things.

Speaker 8 (01:21:03):
Mm hm, oh my godness.

Speaker 2 (01:21:06):
It's kind of like, yeah, and you said this earlier.
I mean, again, this is heart wrenching, but it's a
crime of opportunity, right, So as a caregiver, as a mom,
you have your child in your care and by the
way their influenced, you can be influenced. Who hasn't experienced this,
God knows I have. Like, you don't notice it until
the doctor's like, actually you have an ulcer. Boy, you

(01:21:26):
walk out that room and you're like, is killing me?
Like you can't even get through the night right once
it's been identified. So imagine someone's putting that in a
young person's mind who might have a back ache, you know,
for whatever said reason. And you know that's real time.
Now we've just told you, oh, you have a serious situation,
and then and then and then, and the mental mind

(01:21:50):
mess that must play on a young person is is
frankly unparalleled in sickening.

Speaker 4 (01:21:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:57):
Absolutely, What is what is healing process look like for you?
Since then? Physically and emotionally? Can you tell us about
what the healing has been like for you?

Speaker 8 (01:22:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:22:07):
I would say obviously it's been what like a long
time kind of now, like eight years. I don't know.
I can't really be math. But it's been a long time,
and yeah, you're welcome. I still don't know like what's like,
what's fully going on in my body. I still don't

(01:22:28):
know what things might be psychosomatic, what might have been
caused by the abuse, what are things that are just
normal body things. I've had so many situations with my
roommate where I would be like, oh, you know when
this thing happens and he would be like, no, no,
that's you need to see a doctor for that, and
I would be like, oh, I for sure thought that

(01:22:50):
was just like a normal thing and stuff like that,
or the opposite sometimes where I would be like I
think I'm going to have to go the er, and
there would be like have you taken time at all?
And I'd be like, uh no, if you can't do
that until after you go to the doctor. Uh So
the healing process has been long, and I mean I
think it will go for a long time. I think

(01:23:11):
for me, and where I think helps a lot of people.

Speaker 8 (01:23:14):
Is if you are able to get access to your
medical records.

Speaker 6 (01:23:17):
I think being able to read through how well reported
everything was reported, everything was that I would say my
healing was like expedited by decades.

Speaker 8 (01:23:29):
Just because of that, I didn't have to just be like, oh.

Speaker 6 (01:23:32):
Yeah, I believe myself.

Speaker 8 (01:23:34):
I trust myself.

Speaker 5 (01:23:35):
After years of being told I couldn't believe or trust myself,
I was able.

Speaker 6 (01:23:39):
To like just have this proof and a lot of
ever will have that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:43):
Yes, And that's so important.

Speaker 8 (01:23:45):
So many people don't get that.

Speaker 6 (01:23:47):
It like there's still the gas lighting and like I
still get told like no, this could have happened or
things like that, and it's like, but it's right.

Speaker 8 (01:23:56):
Here, like what do you you can't you?

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:24:02):
That big that And I think the other really big
piece too, is that you know, at first I thought
I was sick my whole life. Then I find out
everything I've ever thought about myself and the world and
the people around me is a lie. None of it's true,
none of it's real. So now I have no idea
what to leave. So then I think, oh, well, I

(01:24:23):
must be fully healthy.

Speaker 8 (01:24:25):
So then I try to just ignore.

Speaker 5 (01:24:28):
Ignore anything that's happening in my body.

Speaker 6 (01:24:31):
Ignore whatever's going on. And now because after a point,
after a long time, it's gone to a point where
I'm able to kind of hold both I'm healthy and
I have sonic illnesses I'm healthy, and I still have
other things going on in my body that I have
to take meds for, do treatments for, do different things.

(01:24:53):
And I think that is something that I see so
many survivors struggle with, and not even just survivors struggle with,
but I feel like people on the outside around them
also struggle to watch because I think a lot of
times it's like, Oh, no, are you flipping.

Speaker 5 (01:25:09):
Back into these behaviors?

Speaker 6 (01:25:11):
Are you having Munchausen's yourself? Are you doing some things
versus being able to recognize. Oh, of course, there's like
all of these things happening, and you're still trying to
like figure it out, and there might really be things
going on.

Speaker 3 (01:25:27):
You have illuminated such a ripple effects from I don't
know how. I hadn't really thought through the sort of
acute trauma that someone would go through, But everything you're
describing is sounds like pure common sense. Jordan, And Yeah,
I had a question about your record review work and

(01:25:50):
can you explain why it's so crucial when advocating for
MVPA victims.

Speaker 6 (01:25:57):
Yeah, so, record review work is some that I do
alongside other experts. So essentially, typically it's like the no
if I mean family, I mean lawyers or people will
reach out because they suspect that it's abuse and happening
to a child. They'll send me thousands of records, medical records,

(01:26:18):
school records, things like that, and then I'll go through
and create an Excel spreadsheet that kind of puts everything
in one spot.

Speaker 8 (01:26:28):
Sure, highlight the.

Speaker 6 (01:26:32):
It's nice. Sometimes it's like niction organized, but I'll highlight
all this stuff that's like, you know, most concerning in
the red flags.

Speaker 8 (01:26:40):
And sometimes sometimes that can.

Speaker 6 (01:26:43):
Be helpful to bring to court, or to bring to
doctors or to anyone to say, hey, we know you
don't want to read thousands of pages and then you
don't know what you'd be looking for, but here's this
thing where it's all like laid out for you and
you can read it within a matter of minutes.

Speaker 8 (01:26:59):
We definitely see that help in cases.

Speaker 6 (01:27:01):
Sometimes sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you know, it's still.

Speaker 4 (01:27:07):
I think it's also powerful because it gives you a
little bit of control too. Write like you need to
control a little bit about what's been happening and present
it in a way that you can explain it well
and it's easily understandable for the doctors or law enforcement
and whoever you're dealing with. I mean, I'm sure speaking
of that though, is this an illegal thing? Is Munchausen's

(01:27:31):
by proxy?

Speaker 2 (01:27:31):
Is it illegal? Like, yeah, that's I don't think so. Yeah.
Oh that's why I was mad about Kendra in the
documentary and not getting arrested. And I love it that
where I was like, why are we watching hercies should
behind bars?

Speaker 4 (01:27:44):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:27:44):
Is that not a Is that not illegal?

Speaker 4 (01:27:48):
No?

Speaker 6 (01:27:48):
So, I mean it's kind of like what I said
right where it's it's not illegal.

Speaker 5 (01:27:53):
To lie to your doctors.

Speaker 8 (01:27:54):
There's you know, a lot of people out there.

Speaker 6 (01:27:56):
Trying to bring this out and high create laws and
things like that around it, but it's hard. It's so
hard for people to grasp. Nobody wants to think that
a mother is harming a child, and I think that
is like one of the biggest step points within this.

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
We should continue this conversation about narcissistic women too, because
we know there's a lot of cases and it it
becomes such a you know, I think it's mother's are
just worth a deep dive because look, your body keeps
the score, right. Isn't that that famous book where you
know trauma also, yeah, feeds kind of your body. Well

(01:28:37):
it takes a toll. So here you are identifying as
someone sickly. Now that's removed. Oh well look what's your identity.
Now that's a really scary place to have to start
from as a young person. And I can't imagine. And boy,
are you you're you're you're talking the heroes talk and
you really I've learned so much.

Speaker 4 (01:28:58):
I mean, I mean, in a way it's so inspiring. Yeah, wow,
thank you so much. I mean, I just it's just
so interesting. What does justice look like for survivors of this?

Speaker 6 (01:29:11):
I it's different, right for every person. I think that
some people justice looks like their perpetrator no longer being alive.
For some people, justice looks like they're perpetrator being locked
up and gone forever. Some people want revenge. Some people
want their moms.

Speaker 5 (01:29:32):
Still to get better and so see like that hope
and stuff like that.

Speaker 6 (01:29:37):
And I think for everyone it's so different, and it's
so important for everyone to get to obviously not like
have revenge necessarily or things like that, but maybe like
be able to explore that in therapy or in safe spaces,
like what that could look like to be able to
kind of get that out of your body or things
like that. I know, for me, I all I wanted

(01:30:01):
was for my mom to get better and for her
to have a chance. Obviously she passed away so that
didn't happen. But now I think for me a lot
of what justice looks like to me still even with
her now that she passed away.

Speaker 8 (01:30:19):
To me, justice is me.

Speaker 5 (01:30:22):
Being able to live my life.

Speaker 6 (01:30:24):
To me, being able to go out and do things
and not be yes and speak up about it and
to not be so stuck still because of her actions
or what happened.

Speaker 2 (01:30:39):
You know, the wounded are the best healers, right, so
here you are, you know, thank you for doing that,
because I can promise like we're all sort of I'm
jaw dropped right now.

Speaker 3 (01:30:51):
So yeah, you've really illuminated so much. I mean, thank you,
Jank you yeah, Jordan, Oh, thank you for joining.

Speaker 2 (01:31:01):
Us, Davis. Yeah, thank you we havev.

Speaker 3 (01:31:05):
So yeah, thanks for sharing your story, your advocacy, and
for helping clear up common myths around this condition and
misconceptions and what people can actually do. So if anyone
would like to connect with Jordan, you can find them
on Instagram and TikTok at Flourishing Wildly on LinkedIn at

(01:31:27):
Jordan Hope or by email, and that is at Flourishing
Wildly at gmail dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:31:34):
Thank you again. Yeah, it was a real pleasure. Beautiful
days ahead, and yeah, check back in with us because
this conversation can continue. We didn't get to one single
talk back. We won caller despite the phone we were ringing,
so we sort of held Jordan hostage. We did. That's
how new this information is. So again, I think if

(01:31:55):
you have questions or anything that we can feed them
to you separately or off line, Jordan, because we didn't
let anybody in the combo. This is one of those
nights so we monopolize their time, we monopolize your time
and edge of our seat. So thank you for the
awareness and listen, we'll be back tomorrow. Talk back tuesdays,
so keep those talkbacks coming. Make sure make sure make

(01:32:18):
sure this is true crime tonight. We've been talking true
crime all the time. Listen, stay safe out there, and
we will be back tomorrow. Bye, good Nay

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