Forensic Deep Dive: Idaho Crime Scene Photos, Marilyn Monroe, and Unseen Truths

Forensics expert and Body Bags host Joseph Scott Morgan joins us for Scientific Sunday to break down the newly released photos from the Idaho student murders crime scene, examine the digital forensics of Bryan Kohberger’s phone, and respond to your talkbacks. Plus, he offers his expert analysis on Marilyn Monroe’s suspicious death and Hulu’s Trophy Wife: Murder on Safari.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking to
crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker alongside Courtney Armstrong
and body Move In. It's Sunday, August tenth, and it
is scientific Sunday, I might add, and guess what. We
have a stacked night of headlines. Joseph Scott Morgan, our

(00:39):
very favorite forensics expert and post of the hit podcast
body Bags, is back and listen. There's a lot to unpack.
There has been a major dump of prime scene photos
in the Idaho massacre case. We're going to be delicately
unpacking the forensics on that, and also Joseph going to

(01:00):
share with us his theory about the circumstances around Marilyn
Monroe's alleged suicide. I guess that's been caught into question.
We even think she committed suicide anymore, So don't answer.
Joseph's going to actually talk us through it. And also
later in the show, if we get to it, we're
going to be discussing the case that everybody is talking about,

(01:21):
the husband who has been convicted for killing his wife
on Safari. Lots to discuss there, so Joseph, welcome back,
first and foremost. Yeah, we're so happy to have you back.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Guys. My favorite night of the week is that really
love being with you guys. It's like hanging out.

Speaker 4 (01:38):
With That's so funny, you say, great friends.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
And just chilling out and talking.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, we're talking.

Speaker 4 (01:44):
Yeah, it's my favorite night too, So what a coincidence?

Speaker 3 (01:47):
Yeah? Yeah, I love it. I love hanging out with
you guys and exploring science with you all.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
Well, I will say, having been gone for a few nights,
it is such a great thing to be back with
the people that I love and respect the most. So let's,
you know, make sure we get our forensics on tonight
and listen, we have a talk back to jump to
right from the start, so let's go to that first.

Speaker 5 (02:08):
This is Christine from Canada. Good morning, ladies, and good
morning mister Morgan. I would like to know if the
company k Bar has ever released a statement with regards
to the use of their knife during the horrific night,
and have they pulled the make and model of knife
from the production line. Thanks ladies, Thanks mister Morgan having it.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
Wow, what a great question. I have not had anyone
over all this periods Tom asked that question. My thought
was was that the police had gone to the company,
which the company is actually and forgive me it is
scapes me right now. The company is not actually called
kar kbar will sold to another company several years ago.

(02:52):
But it is an excellent question. And you know, that's
one of the things that we do in forensics. We
will actually go and check a production line or ad
for the production line information and when and most things
like this. You can think about guns, knives, garbage bags.
They're all made in lots, okay, so there's like a

(03:12):
specific run. Now a gun and a knife are a
little bit more intensive. Okay. So you would then say
garbage bags, the garbage bag, we actually look at them
because we have unfortunately, we have cases involving garbage bags
that contain human remains. That just kind of jumped in mind.
So yeah, going back to the manufacturer, and I think

(03:33):
that that's a fascinating thing to really consider. Because of this,
in forensics, we have something that's called individualization, and that
goes to every element of evidence that we collect. What
is it that sets it apart from everything else? I've
always wondered, and I don't know that this question will

(03:54):
ever be answered, what kind of marks were left behind? Specifically,
see if I can put this delicately in the skeletal
features of each victim, and how does that translate to
the edge that blade. I really wondered because we haven't
heard anything about radiological reports. And I've often wondered if

(04:16):
any kind of metal had peeled off at any point
in time and it could be appreciated on X ray,
because that's something that would commonly do with bullets. And
I've seen knives actually shear in the autopsy room and
on X rays, and so that is something interesting to consider.

Speaker 4 (04:34):
So like metal fragments perhaps, yeah, like shings of so
to speak.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Wow, Yeah, And you have to think about the repetitive
nature of the use. As horrible as this is, over
and over and over again that night. And I'm not
saying that it was structurally compromised in any way, but
you have to keep that within the realm of possibility.
The edge would not be as sharp as it was
when this and started and at the end, if you

(05:03):
have a more dull Knie, there will be a higher
probability that that could translate into some kind of scientific evidence.

Speaker 6 (05:12):
Right.

Speaker 7 (05:14):
It's so interesting that you asked about if Kbar the company,
you know, if they put out a statement because it
has been very publicly tied to this case. But also
what kind of response would you say, Like this is
maybe a poor analogy, but if anyone watched these Sex
and Cities spin off and just like that, they killed

(05:34):
the main character off at the very beginning because he
was on a peloton, right, and they talked about it
the whole I mean for seasons and episodes, but like,
it wasn't pelletpon's fault. It wasn't the device's fault. But
it's an interesting.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
I'd be curious sometimes we'll be surprised everybody. I mean
we tick in k Bar.

Speaker 4 (05:54):
We don't normally see kinds of statements from companies like
Smith and Wesson. Doesn't come out every time there's a
school shooting.

Speaker 7 (06:00):
Right.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
No, here's the thing. You know, when you think about
firearms with guns and one of the most fascinating things
you ever get to go to a crime lab and
go into the ballistics area. It is unbelievable because they
have representative samples of most firearms that you can imagine,
so they have that template that they're working from. How

(06:21):
many templates are there K bars out there? Because one
of the reasons this case case has captured me so
much was the weapon that was used. Out of all
the weapons in the world that could have been chosen
to perpetrate this madness, it was a K bar And
I know K bar from long long ago, had heard

(06:42):
about it, never heard about it used in a homicide
like this.

Speaker 4 (06:45):
Well, didn't Donny Rollins use CA bar the Deinesville Ripper?

Speaker 3 (06:50):
He very well might have. I know that. You know
he was camping out. You know, he lived this kind
of hermit light life so many years ago. I can't recall.

Speaker 4 (07:00):
I don't recall either honestly, but I know that he.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Did have a knife because that was his tool preference.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, yeah, I'd be curious too, Joseph, based on everything
that we know about this case now, which is becoming
a lot of details, has there ever been anything that
made us clearer on why Brian Coburger actually chose that
particular weapon. Do you have a theory on that.

Speaker 3 (07:25):
Well, I think something that kind of flashed back in
my mind. Do you guys remember seeing those junior RTC
photos of him, Yes, they go back to years. He
was a bit heavier there, and it would not surprise
me if he may have in his past, and I
think through the jail rt see images, we can you know,

(07:46):
put this Ford had he thought about going into the military.
And if you're a student of military history, particularly one
of the biggest military events has ever happened in US
history of the World War two, k bar featured significantly,
particularly in the Pacific theater. You can watch the movies.
I go back and look at some of the black

(08:06):
and whites, you know, like John Wayne, sans Avi, Regima,
those guys, they're all caring k bars that in that movie.
They actually had a manual for knife five. So I
wonder if maybe that caused his attention at some point.

Speaker 4 (08:20):
Interesting, Yeah, I just got taha, just send us a note.
Danny Rollins the Games of Rapper. He did use a
K bar in the nineteen ninety murders of five students
in Gainesville, Florida. I thought it was really real sick.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
Oh oh boy.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
But that tracks because you would have to assume that
Brian Coberger has been tracking these other killers, so we
know that he was a fan necessarily, but that would
make We're going to get into that later.

Speaker 4 (08:46):
We're going to get into that later tonight because there
is evidence that Brian Coberger was particularly interested in Danny Rowling.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
So we just found that out.

Speaker 7 (08:56):
Yeah, a lot, and that is a bulk of what
we're going to be talking about is all of this
new information that has just come out. Listen, this is
true Crime Tonight. We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong here
with Body Movin and Stephanie Leidecker and we are thrilled
to be joined with our forensic expert favorite Joseph Scott Morgan.

(09:17):
We're about to jump into a bunch of newly released
evidence in the Idaho college murder case. So we want
to converse with you. Eight and eight three one crime.
Give us a call. Body, can you lay the table
a little bit?

Speaker 4 (09:31):
Yeah, So this is in relation to the Idaho student murders.
Newly released neighborhood surveillance footage and dozens and dozens of
haunting photographs pull back the curtain a little bit on
the off campus home where in twenty twenty two, Brian
Coberger carried out the brutal murders of four college students,

(09:51):
offering the public its most detailed glimpse into the crime
scene yet. And listen, we would be remiss if we
didn't mention that the family of Kaylee Gonsolve release this
statement in regards to the photo release. In regards I'm
quoting in regards to the crime scene photos being released
of Kaylee, Maddie, Ethan, and Xana. We know they are

(10:12):
out there, but we are begging you not to share them.
These pictures are extremely private and cause immense pain and
trauma for all of our families. Please help us by
not reposting or sharing them. We are asking kindly for
your help and respect to this extremely sensitive matter. Thank you,
ps instead post your favorite photo of them. So here's

(10:34):
my thing, And I absolutely respect the family, and you know,
my heart it breaks for them that they have to
wake up and see this on the internet, right, I mean,
just it's horrifying. But I would rather talk about these
with you guys with respect and the reverence they deserve
than let the people that are unhinged completely talk about

(10:57):
this and just be completely like glorifying, you know, things
like oh, there wasn't I didn't.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
There's not enough.

Speaker 4 (11:03):
Blood there, you know, there had to be a clean
up crew coming, like they're just going crazy. So I
think it's important for us to speak about these. Right,
we're in the true we're in the true crime world.
We're absolutely going to be talking about these. We're not
going to be sharing them, but we are going to
be talking about these with respect, right, I mean, can
we agree?

Speaker 2 (11:22):
We totally agree, obviously, But I also would suggest that
listeners don't have to look at it. We have Joseph here,
we can all discuss it. I wish I hadn't seen,
you know, so many of not only just these photos,
but in so many of the cases. So I would
encourage listeners not to look, not to share, and we

(11:43):
can do a very ethical unpack now, right. You know,
you guys are such clime brains starting off.

Speaker 4 (11:50):
You know, the first photo I saw was I'm just
going to talk about the photos, if that's okay with
you guys.

Speaker 8 (11:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (11:55):
Sure.

Speaker 4 (11:55):
The first photo I saw was of Kaylee's bedroom and
it's you know, nothing is gory in there. It was
completely un you know, unchanged. But the haunting part of
it is that Murphy Kaylee's dog is hiding under her
desk in this photo. And when you read the supplement
of reports that go along with these photos, by the way,

(12:18):
that were released in the previous week, we learned that
they had to coax Murphy out so like he was scared.
Murphy was scared, petrified, so petrified. Yeah, and it's it's
a haunting photo and it really it was the photo
I saw all the photos the day they released, and
it was the one photo I couldn't let go of

(12:39):
because it really painted a picture right of the night
without having to look at blood, without having to do anything.
It really painted a picture of that night to me.

Speaker 7 (12:48):
Listen, we're going to continue to follow this. When we
come back, we're going to have more information about the
digital forensics that have been released in from Brian Koberger's
phone in relation to the Idaho college student murder case.
And also Joseph Scott Morgan's gonna tell us what really
happened with Marilyn Monroe. Stick around True Crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
It is Scientific Sunday, and of course Joseph Scott Morgan,
forensics expert and also host of the hit podcast Body
bags is here, and he's here on the perfect night
because there has just been a major dump of information
in the Idaho massacre, obviously the Brian Coburger Idaho killings.

(13:40):
You know, I hate saying his name and I don't
know how to get around it. What are we calling
him right now? Or just the killer? The murderer we
should say has decided to say nothing. But now we
are getting some glimpses into the forensics and they're pretty harrowing.
The Gonzalez family and the Chapin family victims. Families have

(14:01):
suggested that we really don't share them. So we're going
to pass that information along to you all as well,
and hopefully unpack it so you don't have to look.
It's scary stuff, grizzly stuff. Joseph, you know you know
this better than anybody, buddy. Do you want to set
us up a little bit before Joseph digs into the forensics.

Speaker 4 (14:18):
Yeah, So, through a public records request, NBC affiliate kt
BB obtained nearly two hundred there's actually one hundred and
eighty two, and we know that from Supplemental four of
the Moscow Police records Stump that we just got the
photolog contains one hundred and eighty two photographs, and the

(14:39):
news outlets have released around twenty three of them, and
they're redacted, they're blurred, but a lot of you know,
a lot of the images are just of daily life,
like you know, there's a laundry basket with clothes, and
there's beer bottles. This is a college home, right, red
solo cuff, Yeah, read, so there's an beer cang table,
like there's things is that you know, you would expect

(15:01):
to see in a college home. You know, Maddie comes
home and she takes off her Doc Martins and climbs
into bed and you can we can see a photo
of her Doc Martins on the floor, like it's it's
just a normal home. But then throughout those photos there's
this very unnormal scene, okay, and you know it's just

(15:23):
it's hard to describe. I'm doing my best, but it's
it's harrowing. You know, a small number of these photos
capture just like the grim reality of what happened there
nearly three years ago now already, and you know, there's
blood staining the hardwood floors, soaking into the bedding and
splattered across walls. We see smudges on a night stand

(15:44):
of blood and I'm and I really want to talk
to Joseph about what those things mean. Okay, Now there's
two photos in particular. One is of Maddie's floor and
it's right inside her door, and the other is of
Xana's floor and it's near the entry way to her room. Well,
it's inside her room near the door as well, actually,

(16:05):
and the blood droplets are perfectly round. Okay, they're perfectly round, Joseph,
What does that mean?

Speaker 3 (16:13):
Well, this is what's recalled. This is what's referred to
as kind of a passive dripping. And this is quite
chilling because you can ascertain the movement of an object
based upon its position if you have a liquid, particularly
a viscous liquid like blood. And let me see how

(16:37):
I can frame this for you. If an individual had
a knife in their hand and they're in a static position,
that means they're not moving and this object, this knife,
is saturated with blood. What's going to happen is as
that person is standing still. Just for mind, just think
of yourself standing still in a doorway and you're holding

(17:04):
this inundated instrument with blood, and all of that blood
is seeking the tip of that knife and gravity is
pulling it down and then it passively. Passively there's that
word drops straight down and that's most of the time.

(17:24):
That's where you will get these perfect circles because there's
no dynamicism to them where they're flying through the air
and this sort of thing. Yeah, there's no tail, and
here's here's the cool thing. Most of the time, the
tail will tell you direction of travel. Okay, it's like
a pointer. And I did see it looked like it

(17:48):
was on the face of a door, not the door facing,
but actually the facing of the door. And they're kind
of diagonally oriented, and this means that's a dynamic event
where this blood depth is sho hit that surface. And
one of the things I teach my students and I
showed them an old image from Vietnam, actually an old

(18:08):
movie of napalm being dropped, and when you see these canisters,
this is a great way to kind of understand dynamics
of blood. See these cannisters released from a fighter jet.
It begins to roll through the air, and as it's
getting to the terminal point where it's launched, everything gets
more and more narrow and you can tell the direction

(18:31):
of flight of that napalm, and that's in a big way.
Think about that the same way as you do the blood. Okay,
it's traveling in a particular delect direction and it's giving that.
The problem is here is that we don't necessarily have
We don't necessarily have a what we refer to as
a macro shot of the door, the room, the floor.

(18:56):
And that's the way we work at Crimson. You take
macro shot, you go to mid range, then you do
micro shots, and you're doing it three hundred and sixty degrees.
It's like all we teach all points of the compass.
So you kind of move like this, and then you're
going concentrically as opposed to eccentrically. You start out broad

(19:18):
and then you narrow that down and that way you
go back. And you mentioned that there are how many
photos that they got in the dump. It was in
excess of time, Okay, so just understand there. I don't
know for a fact. I would say that there's probably
total number is probably approaching a thousand. That's just what

(19:43):
has been released. That's how detailed we generally are with photography.
Because what you're doing and everybody needs to get a
hold of this idea. You're freezing that moment in time.
You can never return back to it. So to tell
this story with these victims, have to freeze that moment
because you'll never get it back right, And it's a

(20:05):
you know, and it's kind of an uh uh. It's
a heavy task to be burned with because you want
to make sure that you get everything and some of
the stuff hides from you. Have to be very purpose,
very careful. No outside distractions. Don't talk to me while
I'm doing what I'm doing. Stay away from me. Just
let me photograph.

Speaker 4 (20:24):
So these perfectly round circles, these perfectly round drops on
the inside the door, just just inside the door. Does
this tell us that he's he maybe observed his work
instead there for a moment.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeau's let me, That's what I thought.

Speaker 4 (20:46):
Also, so I don't think Xanna interrupted him.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
Well, I don't know, but I do know based upon
science that the subject that was holding this item that
saturate with blood paused and surveiled the area. I don't know,
maybe its exactly, And so they're kind of drinking this.

(21:10):
This individual is drinking all of the scent for one moment,
panting around where do I go next? What do I
do next? And that's why this is so just this
little bit that we're talking about, That's why this is
so incredibly chilling, because you get an idea of movement.
We haven't had this, right, I mean, people have speculated

(21:31):
about movement, but this is kind of evidence of at
least a pause. Now you don't necessarily know which direction
he went after that, but you know, just based upon that,
that this individual stood there as this blood dripped off
the tip of the knife.

Speaker 4 (21:48):
It's harrowing to think about, Like it's harrowing to think
about him taking it in basically right, taking in what
he's done in both of these rooms at some point.
We don't know if it was you know, we know
it was after something because there's blood, but we don't
know in the sequential order of things. And if he
was rocking, he wouldn't be sitting there pausing.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
But let's be for.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
Real, right, and you know, there's there's always this this
specter of this idea. This individual did not necessarily count
on all of these subjects being there. So wouldn't you
take a pause? Well I don't know, but I would
you know, you're what do I do now in the

(22:31):
midst of all of the this adrenaline dump that this
individual's going through and orientation, it's dark. Where am I
going to go from here? Was it illuminated? I've always
wondered if he ever took a flash light with him
or some type. Did he have a phone with him?
You know that he was illuminating this area. How could
he keep it clean where you know, all of these
little things. I'm thinking probably more flashlight, not phone, right

(22:54):
because we know about the phone, but you know, you
think about flashlight just to veil the area. I'm thinking
about it. You can use a flashlight the blind victims
with I mean, if you've ever been oh yes, it's
like you know, you're disoriented and particularly in pitch pitch dark.

(23:14):
So and I don't know that that's the case, but
I'm just.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Saying could be that.

Speaker 4 (23:18):
I mean, Bethany reported seeing a flash. That's the flash
right there. We've never been able to well wrap our
breaths around Bethany's on the first floor though, still, but
me it was.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
So often around with it on exactly it might have
gone off multiple times, that might not have been the
only time. And just for anybody who's like not as
aware of the scene. Remember Madison Mogan and Kelly Gonzalveez,
they're on the top top floor, so he had to
go through a slider go to the top top floor.
And when you talk about a pause, it's a pause

(23:51):
by the killer with his weapon. Now we know at
his life at his side. Like the scariest movie ever
in the blood is dripping one by one by one
onto the floor, which is why those droplets are so significant.
It's a haunting detail, and the flesh that makes sense

(24:12):
it does.

Speaker 4 (24:13):
There's another photo, Joseph, I, oh, I don't know if
we're gonna have time in this segment to get with it,
but I'll save it for the next one. The other
one that was interesting to me was the ping pong photo.
It's it's a living room and this is a really
quick one so I can get into it. The ping
pong or I'm sorry, the beer pong table. It's right
in the middle of the living room. And we know
from the photologue that they did find evidence of blood

(24:36):
on the pong table, but we don't know what it
looks like since we didn't get a photo of the blood.
But I'm kind of wondering if it's a transfer because
it's right in the middle of the table and he
would have gone past that pong table to get to
Zanna's room.

Speaker 3 (24:50):
Yeah, and that could come. You know, I've always held
that whatever uh you know, raiment that he had on,
whatever clothing, would have been super saturated. If you don't
have spatial awareness, you can brush up against an area
and that is going to be a transfer. Or if
he's trying to catch his breath, that could be a lean.
And so if your hand or the gloved hand has

(25:11):
blood on it, you can transfer. And here in body,
I got to tell you one of the key things
here is trying to understand form of that transfer. What
shape does it take? I think that's kind of interesting.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
It's key.

Speaker 7 (25:25):
Yeah, there's a lot more information that has come out
just in the past honestly hours, So keep it here.
We have Justseph Scott Morgan answering all of your forensic questions.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
We want to hear from you.

Speaker 7 (25:37):
So call us eighty eight three one Crime, True Crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
And listen. We've had a really big info dump. I
don't like that word info dump, but that's how they
say it in behind the scenes, and it's true a
lot of the forensics and the photographs from the crime
scenes and the Idaho massacre have been released. They're redacted,
but they are very telling of some of the things
that we just haven't had clean answers on, so we

(26:13):
want to be very sensitive about it. First and foremost,
we really are suggesting that you all don't have to
listen or look. I should say, we can unpack it
here with smart brains. You know, Joseph, you do that
also sensitively, and you know we want to hear from you.
So if you have any questions, please jump in eight
eight eight three one crime, or you could always hit

(26:34):
us up on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show
on TikTok and Instagram, or also on Facebook at True
Crime Tonight. Or you could also leave us a talkback,
which is that you know, download your iHeartRadio app top
right hand corner, push the button and boom, you can
leave your message and you're on the show. Speaking of
which we have one right now.

Speaker 3 (26:56):
I was thinking about with Brian cober Her and the
flash of light in the firecrackers sound that was heard.

Speaker 8 (27:05):
Could there have been like a taser or something like
that that was used on the dog just wondering what
you thought.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Thanks, love you guys by.

Speaker 4 (27:18):
Interesting, interesting question because I never thought about a taser
being used on Murphy.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
What do guys think That makes sense to me too,
to be honest, because again, we've always been curious about
why Murphy, this beloved dog of Kaylee Gonzalveez, is why
there wasn't maybe more activity or maybe why he didn't
take the dog's life. Thank god he didn't. By the way,
if you don't know this case and where you're kind
of joining us here and jumping in, we're talking about

(27:48):
the Idaho College murders. For incredible students were murdered. The
killer and murderer has confessed to all four killings is
now serve multiple life sentences behind bars, and as a result,
there was no trial. And because there was no trial,
we've had some new information shared with us from law

(28:11):
enforcement that was being saved for the trial. So we're
unpacking that as sensitively as possible.

Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yes we are, and we have a caller right now.
Do we want to get the call and ready to
do it?

Speaker 7 (28:23):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Absolutely do it?

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Meg?

Speaker 8 (28:27):
Hi, Meg, Hey, thank you, Hey, this is Meg. Thank
you so much for taking my call. I just I
am part of a true crime community, and there's a
lot of debate on whether or not Kaylee was actually
in the bed with Maddie when the attack started. I
am of the belief that she was and just woke
up and started, you know, perhaps screaming. Some people think

(28:49):
that she interrupted and came in. I just feel like
if she did interrupt, there would be more disturbance, Like
they're in the doorway, like Mattie's shoes were still perfectly still.
And yes, ye see you know a lot of blood.
And I was just going to ask mister Morgan what
he thought.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
Yeah, thanks thanks for calling. Yeah, I uh we're two
minds of this, uh or are of one mind? Rather
forgive me in a long day? Yeah? Absolutely, I I
agree uh with with your uh your view of this,
I think because you know, we have to think back
to what mister Gonzalvee said. Uh he had some kind

(29:30):
of knowledge about this because he talked about he almost
described it almost like an entrapment, uh, where Maddie was
in between uh you know, uh Kayley in the door
and that's contained in that bed. And there's also speculation
that at some point in Tom Kaylee uh may very

(29:53):
well have been in either a uh, completely up upright
position in the bed, you know, kind of laying back
in a swall, or partially seated so that her shoulders
were elevated above the level of ways. Now, I don't
I don't know how we would go about validating that,
but it seems more logical to me than her coming

(30:13):
in and discovering this individual in the room with him.

Speaker 4 (30:20):
Yeah, and I'm I'm the opposite mind here. I believe
Kaylee interrupted him. I believe he threw her onto the bed.
I think she was sitting upright at one point because
of the blood spatter that we see in the photos
that were going over the.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
Listen.

Speaker 4 (30:37):
Dylan is insistent that she heard Kaylee say somebody's here,
and then like ten minutes had passed and she heard
a man saying a not a nice way. Don't worry,
I'm going to help you. It has to be Kayley,
And the only way that happens is if she's outside
of that room and goes in.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
That's just my opinion.

Speaker 7 (30:59):
Yeah, I counted that as well. What's your rationale, Stephanie.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
I just think that they were two best friends. Reminders
Kaylee and Madison were raised like sisters. You know, they
grew up together, so you know, picture it. You go
out for a night playing with your buds, and you
come back and you're you're just going to crash in
the same bed. Remember Kaylee was returning for the weekend,
so you know, they probably wouldn't want to sleep in
separate rooms. So they were just doing like sisters do.

(31:25):
That to me has always really tracked just based on
what I know about them or what we've been told
about them. I should say, Court, and you're shaking your head,
what's your opinion?

Speaker 7 (31:34):
Well, my thought is and body referenced Dylan's statement. So
Dylan is one of the surviving thank God roommates witnesses.
And I just don't give that much weight to her
saying it was ten minutes after because in the middle
of the night, and this is this is just a
no dig on her. But I don't think you have

(31:56):
the sense of time, and I don't put a lot.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
Of That's a good point.

Speaker 4 (32:01):
That is that is a super valid and good point.
We also have to remember they cut out a huge
wall right next to the desk, which is right near
the door, which is where Kaylee would have entered. I
think she was attacked there. I think that's why they
removed the wall. I think he threw her on the bed.
She landed in an upright position. He continued to attack

(32:22):
her while she was sitting upright and then she perished.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
What if what if he was attacking her and ripped
her out of the bed.

Speaker 4 (32:33):
Maybe, I mean, listen, anything is possible. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
I'm an idiot.

Speaker 7 (32:37):
You know.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
One of the things I'm thinking about is if that
wall and we've talked about this a couple of times
where the wall was removed and it would be a
slab of you know, sheet rock that's cut out and
it's commonly done at cromp scenes. And if he came
to rest there, for instance, if this is like a transfer,

(33:00):
could have leaned against it. Remember we're talking about adrenaline
dump here. This is an exhausting event. Let me remember
how many how many injuries do we know of relative
to Kaylee alone? You know, mister Gonzalez said like thirty.
I think that's the police and the interview that they
give gave said like twenty nine. And we're just talking

(33:23):
about straight up stab ones or sharp force injuries. Not
to mention this horrible disfigurement thing that's going on with
her face, So you would have a lot of transfer
onto again, going back to what I've always held, you'd
have a lot of transfer coming back on to him.
This is a very intimate thing. It's going to transfer

(33:46):
on to him. We don't know where did he lean
on that area?

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Medi yeah, maybe, Yeah.

Speaker 7 (33:51):
There's a lot of information coming at us from different directions.
This is true crime tonight. We're on iHeartRadio and we
are speaking with Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic expert, and it
is about the Idaho student murders and the information that
has been recently resealed since the case did not go
to court, and indeed the murderer is behind bars. If

(34:13):
you want to join the question the conversation and ask
us or Joseph Scott Morgan questions eighted eight three to
one Crime. Joseph, is there any sort of overarching takeaway
or any specific any thing that you saw that made
you say huh? This illuminates that or raises more questions
with regard to the photos.

Speaker 3 (34:32):
Now, I think most of it was confirmatory to me.
You know. One of the things that really struck me
is such a it's such a I don't know. I
don't know if the words for destroon, but it just
there was an image that the news media took where
we could see and through the window there in the
great room space, and we actually saw the solo cups.

(34:55):
I don't know if you remember that that table was cluttered.
That's from the exterior of the house, and now it's
contextualized with this crime scene image where it's you're flashing
back to that spot, only it's from a different angle.
You know, whoever it was it took that shot. It
may have been a screen capture off a video from
the news media, but you go back into that house,

(35:18):
I think for me, I really expected to see more
evidence of blood. This goes to the idea of containment,
that these things happened in specific forgive me for saying
that these this butchery took place in specific locations, and

(35:42):
those victims did not move from that location. He killed
them where they were, and so you've got this supersaturation
that's going on there. Again, I point you to the
exhibit of the blood that's exterior to the house that
has now been confirmed as being ethan. You know, he
did not move from that spot. Uh. And as I've
mentioned before, these events with sharp force injuries are the

(36:06):
bloodiest crimp scenes you will ever enter onto. Even considering
massive gunfire, it doesn't compare to sharp force injuries.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
Right there.

Speaker 4 (36:16):
You mentioned they probably very much likely died in the spot.
There's one one exception, I think, Joseph and I think
that was Sanna's room. And in many of the photos
we can see that there was clearly a struggle. Right,
there's smears of blood on her nightstand, which implies movement
and pressure.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
Right, yeah, yeah, it does. And I think that that's
the point well taken. Yeah, let me rephrase my answer.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
No, no, for the record, yes, records show so containment.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
It goes into that one physical space that is designated
as her room. It didn't travel all. Yeah, so it's complained.
And let me throw this out there, if you like
this one, if you like that one. I believe that
out of all of these victims, Zanna probably took the
worst of it. You know, because we're hearing numbers that

(37:17):
are as an old death investigator forensic science professor, these
are astronomical numbers when you begin to think about the
butchery that took on that took place with her. You know,
we heard Kaylee earlier, maybe thirty, that's what mister Gonzalvez said.
It doesn't approach what Xanna went through. When we're beginning

(37:37):
to hear about the number I've heard is fifty and
it maybe more or less, I don't know, but that's
a huge number, particularly when it comes to stab ones.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
That's right, we're unpacking these recent photos that have been
shared publicly from law enforcement surrounding the Idaho massacre and
the murders of for incredible college students, Smogan, Kaylie, Gonsalvez,
even Shapen and of course Zaturkarnodle and the families are
really encouraging everyone to not look because they are grizzly

(38:09):
and private and personal insensitive. And you know, I'm curious
what you guys think about that. I could really feel
for them and appreciate that. And is it appropriate for
those photos to be out there or is it necessary?
I guess is the question.

Speaker 7 (38:26):
I'll be honest, I really just primarily follow what the
victim's family does. And I can say this having made
quite a bit of documentaries with Stephanie Leidecker and been
lucky enough to do that at KT. The first thought
beyond what does the network think or anyone else, is
what do the families think who have seen this? And

(38:48):
you know, listen, I think these would have come out if.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
There were a trial.

Speaker 7 (38:51):
But I also really respect that people don't need to
be sending, posting, meming anything else. We're here to talking
with the forensic expert about what potentially can be learned,
and I think it's best kept contained, is my thought.

Speaker 4 (39:07):
I Listen, we're in the true crime business, and this
is analyzing what happened in a crime. And I think
it would be silly to think that we're not going
to talk about these But we're not showing them, right,
we're not glorifying them. We're not, you know, And if
we didn't talk about them, then I would be like, Okay,

(39:29):
they're capitulating a little bit too, you know, families in
some way. But you know, this is our business and
this is what we do, and this is what we're
supposed to be doing.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
What do you think, Joseph?

Speaker 3 (39:41):
Okay? For me, I think I think they made a
good decision here by releasing them, and this is why
they got out in front of it, and this is
such a sensitive thing. They now control. They being the authorities,
control what's going to be out there. Now, that doesn't

(40:02):
mean that somebody with ill intent can't still get these
and release them. We saw what happened a few weeks
back when that episode of that program on a Friday
Night was released and we had all this stuff pushed
out there. The authorities in an official capacity were not
in control of that. They released these. They're in control

(40:25):
of it. I have had images in cases I've been
involved in. I remember one many many years ago that
showed up on the internet that originated out of Germany,
and it was a case I was involved in, and
it was horrible. I mean it was a horrible case.
You want to be in control of this. This in

(40:46):
particular because listen, they did avoid the family, avoided going
through a trial. Okay, they avoided not having to sit
there and listen and watch and see. This is a
road that they're going to go down. They being the
authorities where they're in control of this thing, and they

(41:08):
can actually dictate what's going to be.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
Out there, totally fair and listen, we're going to continue
to be discussing this case. You know, there's obviously going
to be new pieces of information coming out. So for
tonight though, I think we'll put this to bed for
the evening because also, Joseph, we want to hear from
you about this Marilyn Munroe theory around her alleged suicide.
So say, what my mom is really popping up right

(41:33):
now is she can't wait to hear about this. And
then also the case that we're all talking about this
man who killed his wife on Safari, we want to
hear from you eight eight eight three one crime. This
is true crime tonight, we're talking true crime all the time.

(41:56):
We need to take a break and talk about Marilyn Monroe.
So we'll get to that in a moment, because Joseph has,
you know, some theories about whether or not she actually
took her own life. And then also later in the show,
we're going to be discussing this Larry Rudolph man who's
been convicted of killing his wife so Fari, this guy,
so lots to discuss on that one, Courtney, take it away.

(42:18):
Where do you want to start? Okay, this is a.

Speaker 7 (42:21):
Quick update, but something we've been talking about for one
week and it was a week long man hunt. Yeah,
this is what happened in Anaconna, Montana authorities have taken
the suspect into custody for the shooting that happened at
the Owl Bar.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
So great job, authorities.

Speaker 7 (42:39):
This is one of the what three man hunts that
we were talking about last week. It was kind of unbelievable,
but the suspects in custody Michael Paul Brown, who was
a forty five year old Army veteran. Again, this happened
August first, so the manhunt was swift and effective and
very sadly for local residents were killed in the shooting,

(43:02):
including a bartender Nancy Kelly, and patrons Daniel Bailey, David Leech,
and Tony Palm. So we really send our deep miscondolences
to the family and.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Are happy that he has been captured. So yeah, hats
off to law enforcement too. Think about it. These manhunts
are so dangerous, right, so you know, again to the
to the men and women in blue who keep us
safe about hats off, well done.

Speaker 4 (43:34):
That's another update in Arkansas. Do you guys remember the
Devil's Den? Yes, of course, yes, of course. It's just happened,
and you know we've been following it as well. And
the guy arrested. He's an Arkansas teacher. He was arrested
for killing both mom and dad and they're possibly they
think he might be tied to an unsolved murder in Vermont.

(43:57):
Really yeah so on July, Yeah, so just recently. July
twenty sixth, twenty eight year old school teacher. His name
is Andrew McGann. He allegedly stabbed Clinton David Brink and
his wife, Kristen Amanda Brink to death while they were
hiking with their two little girls in Devil's Den, Arkansas.

(44:17):
Four days later, he was arrested at a barber shop
mid haircut, where he admitted to the crimes. Since his arrest,
investigators have opened inquiries to his connection to this twenty
twenty three murder of Honoree Fleming. So apparently this woman
was hiking and she was killed, and they're looking at
this guy for a possible connection. Wow, Yeah, this.

Speaker 7 (44:41):
Guy moved around. Should it be the same. He is
a suspect, But he's a suspect. But I haven't heard
any evidence linking him to Vermont at any time. We
know he lived in Texas and Oklahoma, right, but you know, yeah,
but nothing in Vermont. Nothing in Vermont. Okay, well, still
still unfolding, Still unfolding, and we're gonna, you know, we're

(45:04):
going to keep it up. And the suspect who murdered
Honoree was described as a white man in his twenties,
about five po ten, with short red hair, so I mean,
things kind of line up. He was reportedly wearing a
dark gray shirt and carrying a black backpack.

Speaker 4 (45:23):
Police released a composite sketch of him based on the
accounts of somebody who was a witness, and there is,
i'm know, a resemblance. I'm not gonna lie like it's
kind of eerie. Yeah, but you know, Vermont State Police
are continuing to actively pursue all the leads in the
case and have not confirmed any direct connection to him
at this time. But we're gonna, We're gonna keep on it.

(45:45):
We're gonna, we're gonna keep reporting on it.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
Can I just say, you guys did such a wonderful
job last week. I had the benefit of tuning in.
I was moving, which is as anybody has who has
ever moved. Yes, it's always you know, far harder than
you think. But it is such a joy to get
to work with you and hearing you guys live was
was so exciting and you just did such a great job.

(46:08):
So I'm really proud to be back. We missed you,
We really did. We There was a lot of man
hunts without me, so it.

Speaker 7 (46:14):
Was and you know we didn't have the full stat
everybody was at large.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
You know, I'm like in my little black mask, you know,
dead in the nightcusing. But yeah, you guys are such
a great job.

Speaker 4 (46:31):
Well, you're listening to true crime. You're listening to true
crime tonight on iHeartRadio where we talk true crime all
the time. I'm body movin and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker.
We're so glad you're back. Courtney Armstrong and forensic expert
Joseph Scott Morgan. We're talking about the true crime headlines
of the day. We're going to segue into Marilyn Monroe

(46:51):
and if you want to weigh in, give us your thoughts,
give us a call eighty eight thirty one Crime or
send us a talkback message. Courtney, get us set the
table for me, Okay to me.

Speaker 7 (47:02):
Yeah, okay, this is really interesting. The coroner who performed
the autopsy in Marilyn monroe Rose death they've since revealed
doubts over the circumstances of her death. This comes sixty
three years later. So, Marilyn Monroe died back in August
of nineteen sixty two. She was only thirty six years old.

(47:27):
She was found in her home in Los Angeles the
day after her alleged suicide, and her official cause of
death was a probable suicide due to an overdose of barbituates. However,
a lot of people have speculated she was murdered and
her death was staged to look like the suicide. So, Joseph,

(47:49):
there's a little bit more info. But what tell us
why you brought this up?

Speaker 3 (47:54):
Well, the reason I brought it up is that somebody
had brought it up to me. There's been a recent
biography that has dropped that's been written by a lady
named Anne Troy, and it's about one of my heroes
in forensic pathology, and that's doctor Tom Nogucci. I look
up to him. He's taught so many people. He was
the La County Corner and he actually he wrote a

(48:18):
great book back in ninety three. Back in eighty three,
him personally called Corner at Large. And listen, guys, he's
done the autopsies on Belushi, the Tate La Bianca, he did.
He did Marilyn Monroe, he did Bobby Kenned, all right.
So that's how high an esteem that many of us

(48:40):
hold him based upon all of these cases he's been
involved in. And he was a hands on guy. So
in this book he's apparently related that he felt like
the breaks were put on him relative to Marilyn Monroe.
As a matter of fact, to the point, were some
of the tissue samples he had taken at autopsy, which
is something that's commonly done, were destroyed, And he says

(49:04):
they were destroyed by the chief toxicologists, and that other studies,
other toxicological studies were not done. And since he was
a junior member of the staff, he felt kind of
handcuffed in this, like he even though he's thirty seven
years old, that's very young for forensic pathologists, particularly in
a shop the size of la even back then in

(49:25):
sixty two, they were you know, he it was almost
he's intimating that someone was preventing him from moving forward.
And this man has never been afraid of anything, but
in this particular case, you know, there were problems and
so from his perspective. And look, this speculation's gone on

(49:48):
for years and years relative to Marilyn Monroe and about
how she died. I can tell you this. She was
found completely nude with a sheet on her bed, lying
in a prone position. The phone or telephone. It was
a hardline phone, obviously, that's what they had, is lying
the receiver's line immediately adjacent to her hand. There's in

(50:11):
pill bottles. But here's the problem. When doctor Magucci did
her autopsy, guess what they didn't find in her stomach
pill any pills.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
There were no pills in her stockach.

Speaker 6 (50:26):
No.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
And the thing about pills, here's how this breaks down.
If you ingest pills. Okay, we can see that at autopsy,
actual physical the physical remnant of it, and particularly if
it is a life ending event, your digestive system shuts down.

(50:47):
But here's something really curious about the other end of
her digestive system. In her colon, there were focal areas
of hemorrhage and congestion. Well, focal areas of congestion. I'll
say that hemorrhage and one of the things that has
been put forward and it's not Listen, I'm not the
first presson to say this and said for years that

(51:08):
either she was given a suppository or perhaps an enema
of some kind containing this drug cocktail. And this drug
cocktail that the found on board with her. Guys, this
is the same drug cocktail that she used in other
countries for people to end their life. This is the
same cocktail I'm just actually used now in the recipe

(51:31):
for lethal injection.

Speaker 4 (51:33):
Well, and isn't taking drugs that way more effective?

Speaker 2 (51:37):
I've heard that.

Speaker 4 (51:37):
I don't know if that's Oh yes, and I don't
have any first and experience, that's what I've heard.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Yeah, stop the press for one second for for me
and my mom.

Speaker 4 (51:46):
So Stephanie is literally freaking around.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Just like I can't get enough of this conversation for starters,
So what does that mean? So she was given a
lethal amount of a cocktail of sorts of a pill
cocktail time that you would get, say in Switzerland, for
a sistical assistance to a medical assistant suicide if you're
like suffering from a disease. We should talk about that

(52:10):
one night. She should. But then so they're given she's
given his cocktail. What's the enema part of it? Like,
how does that?

Speaker 5 (52:18):
Well?

Speaker 3 (52:18):
I don't know. I mean, I'm just I'm throwing that
out there. It was kind of yeah, it was in
her colon. So some people have stated I've heard some
people say suppository, which would be a hard compression. It
would have to be of a combination of this nimbatol
uh and chloral hydrate, which she did have in copious amounts,

(52:38):
by the way lethal levels that she had. And yet
to that point, when drugs are introduced into this portion
of the body, okay, they're absorbed really really quickly. I
actually had a case many years ago where a guy
was muling drugs in from Bolivia and he was this
little farm guy that had and pulled in by one

(53:01):
of the drug cartels. They made him in just they
made him ingest twenty five condoms filled with ten grams
of pure cocaine, and he was trying to run to
meet the ride and one of those and these were
in the lower bowel, and one of these ruptured and

(53:21):
it killed him as he stood there. Now that's cocaine,
and again this is directly absorbed, and so I think
that that's where a lot of this comes from. People
have often have often thought, you know, that is this
even plausible. I don't know. I mean, you're talking about
drugs that are listed as chlorohydrate is actually listed as

(53:41):
a hypnotic. These are drugs that also that you're given
prior to surgery. Now our benzos that we have out there,
you think about clonazepam and those sorts of things. These
drugs were actually prescribed in the past as kind of
people that had high anxiety. But they're so lethal that's

(54:03):
not done anymore. But they are still used as a
precursor for anesthesia, so that tablet that gives you or
that injection that gives you kind of groovy feeling before
you go into that deep, dark black space where you
have surgery, it can be part of that drug cocktail.
So it's it's it's certainly something to chew on and

(54:25):
to and to think about, you know, relative to what
may have happened to her and Nagucci. I go back
to I'm not promoting this book. I'm just saying that's
where this all rose up from. I had them reach
out to me this week wanting to talk about this
on a local network.

Speaker 7 (54:39):
Well, I have to say, and this is off the
pharmacology and onto the Kennedys who you mentioned. So maybe
it's the topic for another time, but I've always wondered
if something happened to Marilyn Rolltt that she was silenced
because of her relationships with the Yeah exactly, I mean, okay.

Speaker 9 (54:57):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
She never should Sorry, sorry, so is Courtney's that's ridiculous. Listen,
we've been talking a lot about the Idaho massacre and
the recent developments with this information shared by law enforcement
of photographs of the crime scenes in some of the
newer details which are all pretty harrowing. If you have

(55:19):
any comments or feedback you want to jump into the conversation,
please do eight eight eight three one crime. Please call
us or leave us a message. You could also leave
us a talk back on the iHeart app, or you
could also hit us up on our socials at True
Crime Tonight's show on Instagram and TikTok, or at True
Crime Tonight on Facebook. So listen, we're going to put

(55:41):
Idaho aside for one moment. And then, also, Joseph, you're
talking a lot about this Marilyn Monroe alleged suicide. Perhaps
she was killed. I know all the Armstrongs and lie
Deckers across America are saying yeah, we think so too. Again,
if you have a comment or want to jump in
and join the convo, please do. And then there's this

(56:02):
guy who murders his wife while on safari. He's now
being convicted Larry Rudolph Courtney, Do you want to share
a little of the update on that?

Speaker 7 (56:11):
Absolutely, this was a weekend watch and I really can't
recommend it more. It's three parts, but the parts are
not long. It's on Hulu. It's called Trophy Wife Murder
on Safari, and in it, it's the story of this
Pittsburgh area dentist, a guy named Larry Rudolph, and he
was convicted in twenty twenty two of murdering his wife,

(56:32):
this apparently lovely woman named Bianca, and he did it
during a hunting safari in Zambia many years prior October
twenty sixteen. So Larry the dentist staged his wife's death
and tried to make it appear accidental, and doing that,

(56:53):
he ended up getting about five million dollars in one
of the nine life insurance policies he had taken out
on her.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
Nine would you possibly need nine life insurance policies? How
is that even possible? I mean, bit by bit, you know.

Speaker 7 (57:13):
And this was all so he could start a new
life with his really long term mistress, this woman named Lorie,
and prosecutors alleged that she really helped the murder. Thought
it was a great idea to get rid of the wife.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
Yes she did.

Speaker 7 (57:31):
Laurie wanted to live the life that Larry's wife was living.
And she's in you know this right at the top.
She is in prison because she helped conceal evidence. She
definitely benefited with the five million dollars of the nine
life insurance policies.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Wait, no spoiler alerts here if you haven't seen it yet,
I have not. So this guy goes on safari like
a prized vacation with his beloved wife, and meantime he
has a mistress, Lauri and Laurie and Larry. Laurie and Larry.
How appropriate those two think it's a great idea just
to knock her off and take a bunch of money.

(58:10):
This is the story as old as time, is it?
Not a dentist? Is he a dentist? He's a dentist.

Speaker 7 (58:16):
And maybe my favorite part of this documentary was watching
because they really they go back almost twenty years before
the murder and up until seven years after, so you
get the scope. And this guy Larry, Oh, Stephanie, they
use the word megalomaniac to describe him.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
Did you jump up and scream at the television?

Speaker 9 (58:37):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (58:38):
I did. Hey, can you tell us again, just because
I haven't heard it in a few days? What is
megl and nomaniac?

Speaker 7 (58:44):
Megalomaniac. It's a person who thinks the world centers from them.
And this guy with picture cable commercials from the eighties
and he's a dentist.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
And he was like, I'm gonna help.

Speaker 7 (58:57):
You out, and jack for miles, smiles for miles and listen.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
It's a good watch.

Speaker 7 (59:05):
The people they have telling the story, including the children
of both Larry, yeah, and also of Lourie. Laurie had children. Also,
Laurie has, to my knowledge, one daughter. There was one
daughter who appeared.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
Her life is destroyed. Yeah, yeah, lives are destroyed. Yeah
that we're ruining the show for anybody, I assume, right,
we're not.

Speaker 7 (59:32):
No, I mean, it's it's in the top kind of
the top line of what happened. But honestly, it is
so worth the watch again to see the twenty year
lead up and this.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
Guy, Larry is one hell of a guy.

Speaker 7 (59:48):
And the people that they have describing what happened in Zambia,
it's unbelievable. There's this guy only Yeah, Dan, he was
a former US ambassador to Zambia, so he helps helps
tell the story. It was complicated with the forensics.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Joseph.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Joseph, Well, listen, I've been following the story for a
long time, long before we actually covered this on Body
Bags a couple of years ago when we first got
wind of it, because I was so fascinated by it.
And the reason I was fascinated by it is like
so many perpetrators, and we can call him a perpetrator
now right right, Oh, he wanted to dispose of her

(01:00:28):
body there and that was, you know, going back to
the work that the constantly did. This guy's sharp as
attack and I'm referring to the guy that was with
the US consulate. He could not understand the urgency of
wanting to have the body cremated. And for some reason,
I don't know, maybe this guy's maybe this guy's got
a future as a medical legal death investigator. Something went

(01:00:50):
off in this guy's brain said this just doesn't this
is not rocking the way it should be, and so
he's wanting to dispose the body because therein in the body,
guess what you had information relative to the range of
the fire of the weapon. He wanted to get rid
of the body so that would be gone. And it's

(01:01:11):
a real plumb case to go over. I'm glad that
they did a doc about this because it's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Wow. I'm going to have to watch it now. I haven't.
I didn't watch it, but I'm going to have to.
You should too.

Speaker 4 (01:01:25):
Please out there an audience, Lang, go watch this documentary
so we can talk about it a little bit more
and get Joseph back on our show a bunch. You're
listening to True Crime Tonight, where we talk true crime
all the time. I'm body and I'm here with Stephanie
Courtney and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan. We were just
talking about Trophy Life Murder on Safari. You can find
it on Hulu. If you want to weigh in with
your thoughts, call us at eighty eight thirty one Crime,

(01:01:47):
or you can send us a talkback message. When you're
listening on the iHeartRadio app. Just put a little microphone
icon on the upper right hand corner and you'll be
on the show and we have a talkback right now.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
Hi, It's Stephanie from Slovenia.

Speaker 7 (01:02:00):
Again.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
I've got a lot of questions for you.

Speaker 10 (01:02:02):
So do you think that Brian Colberger applying for the police,
if he would have gotten that position that he would have,
it would have dissuade him from actually committing this atrocious crime?

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
Or do you think that he would have hidden behind
his badge? Oh what a good voice you have, by
the way, I mean, honestly like you are. You are
meant to be with Allison. Great name, great voice.

Speaker 4 (01:02:26):
Come on, I'm going to defer to uh Joseph DiAngelo
the Golden State Killer ear On's I don't think it
would have. I don't think it would have stopped Brian
Coberger from killing I think that you know, uh, the
Golden State Killer was a cop, you know, and he
obviously was raping women and murdering women for decades and decades.

(01:02:50):
I don't I don't think the badge was strong enough
to pull away his urges.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
What do you guys think? I think he was really
into getting a badge. Though you know, we obviously we
made the documentary on Peacock. Please check it out. Joseph
is you know, so extraordinary in it. By the way,
he wanted to be a cop since the tenth grade
or eleventh grade. So this was the guy we were
told by a school official that he was like ooh, ooh,

(01:03:16):
me me, the guy in like the front of the row,
like answering all the questions to be the star of
cop class, which he was literally in in eleventh grade.
And then something went a little wonky with you know,
two classmates and they said he was a little off,
and boom, he got booted from cop class and this
program that was very you know, prestigious. He would have

(01:03:36):
been in law enforcement, so they kicked him out. Did
that become his his sort of break with law enforcement? Yeah,
and then he went on to be a security officer,
which is also pretty harrowing. We've heard this now after
high school. I think this is a guy who really
wanted to attach to law enforcement in some way and

(01:03:58):
felt excluded either from law enforcement or from ladies in general,
and somehow there was a perfect storm of weird at COVID.
It's also a tale about isolation, ed isolation. This is
a guy that you know, had zero friends because he
was weird. And you know, did that foster this behavior

(01:04:19):
in this foster what would become a monster?

Speaker 4 (01:04:23):
Well, you know, he he just stayed. He's stuff. Sorry,
he destabilized, Like he moved from his familial home right
and moved as far away as you can from the
state of Pennsylvania Washington straight right. And he's got this
attachment to his mother, which we're going to be talking
about in the next segment, so please stay tuned. He's

(01:04:45):
got this attachment to his mother. He's his and he's
getting in trouble. The position is to stabilizing, like in
real time. Very true, It's so true. It's all crumbling.
And by the way, he would have been a nightmare.
Cop into to the original.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
Question, this guy with a badge would have been a
total nightmare. So yes, I do think he would have
loved it. Yes, I do think he would have hid
behind it. And yes, I personally think he still would
have struck. He just would have felt more empowered to
do so and do it again and again and again.
My two cents.

Speaker 4 (01:05:20):
Wow, what do you think, Courtney?

Speaker 7 (01:05:23):
I'm sorry, Hey, I also agree that even though Stephanie mentioned,
you know, potentially the point of him being disenfranchised from
not becoming the police through his high school. I think
this was an inevitability with him, and whichever turned the
road made very sadly, I think it would have ended

(01:05:44):
how it did and more and proliferated.

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
So a good question, Yeah, Joseph, what do you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:51):
Think police departments are para military organizations? It would have
been hell for the people on the street that would
have encountered him as submitting population, but he would have
played hell inside the organization as well, because you have
a rank structure. This guy does not do well with
the rank structure. Look how he treated his supervising EHD

(01:06:14):
right at Washington. If you have that kind of boldness
about you, if he insert you know, he's got to
be the smartest guy in the room. You know, he's
always talking over people. He probably doesn't listen except for
those things he puts value on. And you put him
into a law enforcement environment and it's a train wreck.

(01:06:35):
You're begging for a catastrophe from that perspective. And also, Buddy,
I gotta tell you I could not agree with you
more about Angelo because I thought about that. I thought
that that's the golden ticket. If you're a cop and
you're the sinister person, that's the golden ticket to get
access to people at their most vulnerable moments, just like

(01:06:58):
DiAngelo did.

Speaker 4 (01:07:00):
Absolutely right. Well, stick around, we have more coming up.
We're going to dig into some of the forensics that
are found on Brian Cobergers phone. Keep it right here,
True crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
And listen, there's been so much to unpack. It's always
this balance between figuring out what can we cover and
how do we get to our talkbacks and callers, So
bear with us. I think we're going to jump to
a caller real quick. Here's a talkback.

Speaker 6 (01:07:35):
It is mean, ladies, this is time, just a Nashville,
and I have a question. Okay to you guys have
been covering along with everybody else in the country, but
I don't really want to use the killer's name, or
his initials or even his inmate numbers. I'm just going
to call him inmate the zero, but I'll call off
hand exactly how long it was estimated that he was
in the house and none of the murders. But I've

(01:07:56):
been trying to wrap my head around how physically texting
it a band to commit for murders with the number
of staff rings he inflicted on his dictis. I know
he's lost a lot of weight thro his younger days,
so maybe he was possibly still working out. But do
you think that he could have hate to even say
it like this, trained for this or do you think
he's adrenaline kicked in and he was working slowly off

(01:08:19):
of that? Great question, you guys think and I've missed
having Stephanie on board, so I mess for a genuine surprise, outrage,
astonishment when you guys discuss details of the case of
looking forward to her turn. Absolutely love the show.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
Thanks guys, you're so sweet. I swear there's no money
exchanged for that kindness. Well, we all feel the exact
same way. Is so lovely. Thank you for the sweet words.
This is such a great question because I think we
all have a very real answer to it. Joseph, what
do you say? First?

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Yeah, I think that there wasn't adrenaline dump in the beginning.
And again I still hole to the idea that this
was a sexually motivated event. So he's hyper sexualized at
this point because he's been fantasizing about this. You get
the adrenaline dump and then if you walk into this
environment and there's more people than you expected, you're going

(01:09:16):
to get a subsequent dump as well. So if you
master the people on the top floor and then you
have to go downstairs and do it again, Yeah, I
think that that's going to play a big role into this,
and I think that's what was energizing him throughout this
entire entire situation.

Speaker 4 (01:09:36):
And we know from Histrava history, which is like a
running app that tracks your runs, he was running quite
a bit, he was training and so to speak, so
he had endurance, right. So I think that it's a
really good question, and I think that he was physically fit.
I think he was ready for this. I think he
definitely prepared for it. I don't know if you want

(01:09:56):
to call it training or not, but I do think
it's definitely possible. And I think what I'm going to
talk about next might shed a little bit of insight
on that. So celebrate and celebrate is the software that
does like digital forensics, you know, digging on electronic devices
like cell phones, and their standard throughout the country.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
So celebrate.

Speaker 4 (01:10:18):
Senior Director of Forensic Research, Heather Barnhart and her colleague
Jared Barnhart, who is the head of strategy and advocacy.
They sifted through Brian Coberger's phone data, uncovering a chilling pattern.
Now they were hired by the state to testify a trial.
Since there's no trial, they did an interview with The Independent. Okay,

(01:10:41):
which is a publication in this article came out very recently,
I think yesterday, and it's it's incredible. So at exactly
two fifty four am, during the window when prosecutors say
the killings occurred, Coburger's phone went dark. But it wasn't
just a simple power down. He deliberately disabled Wi Fi,

(01:11:04):
then disabled his cellular service and location tracking, then shut
down his device entirely and forensically speaking, this is how
you do it, Okay, this is how you do it.
For nearly two hours, his digital presence vanished. At four
forty eight am, the phone came back to life as
if nothing had happened. But the blackout wasn't the only

(01:11:26):
thing hiding in his phone. Barnhardt found evidence of a
man steeped in criminal research PDF case files detailed reports
on serial killers, for instance, like Danny Rawling who is
the Gainesville Ripper, which we've been talking about before who
used a K bar on college students in the past,
and a trail of private browsing sessions routed through VPNs.

(01:11:49):
He scrubbed, hid and deleted, yet fragments remained. Painting a
portrait of an obsess of I'm sorry, painting a portrait
of a session in planning. So, reviewing this data, Heather
Barnhardt didn't head her words. She said, Hoberger hadn't stumbled
into this. He acted. He did not act on a whim.

(01:12:10):
He prepared, she said, And I'm using quotes when I
say he prepared. In that quiet digital evidence, investigators found
the story of a man who meticulously set the stage
for murder and thought he had erased the footprints he
left behind. So to our talkback, yeah, he trained. He
definitely trained.

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
And by the way, I think, Joseph, you and I
discussed this very early on. You were the one that's
put this in my head that he was probably practicing
with his k bar, just flipping open the sheath and
practicing taking out a knife and putting it back in
and taking it out, putting it back in. We know
this was planned, so yeah, physically, he was likely training

(01:12:50):
knowing full way there was going to be this big moment.
He was doing polls about it, you know, and this
is a guy that took his like weight so seriously,
so I'm with you guys. I think he was is
for sure training right.

Speaker 3 (01:13:02):
So I'm sorry justin no, no, I was just going
to say, I concur and I think that with the
digital evidence, this is just further you know, backs this
whole idea up. And there's there's a term in the
law I n T e n T intent and so
this goes to intent body. I think that it's fascinating also,

(01:13:26):
and there's nothing wrong with having a VPN, right, I mean,
there's there's nothing wrong with it, and I understand why
people do it. But he had the VPN on his phone.
They came up with that as well. So with the encryption,
it's sending this this thing to different locations so that
it doesn't come back to him again, another brick in

(01:13:49):
building this this house of intent, if you will, or
foundation of intent. I think that that's that's a fascinating
thing as well. And he's going to be he listen,
he knows he's going to be paining off of these
cell towers and the idea that he goes dark during
this period of time. I found it very interesting that
one of the examiners actually stated that he made this

(01:14:13):
very difficult for us. Yes, and these are people that
deal with very difficult situations in trying to kind of
unwind forensic data. It's an amazing field. These people are
really good at what they do, and the fact that
he made it difficult for them really goes It gives

(01:14:33):
you an insight into his planning.

Speaker 4 (01:14:35):
Despite all the planning he did, and Jared did say,
this is someone who tried really hard not to be detected.
But despite all the measures that Brian Coberger took, investigators
did find quite a bit. They found that he had
downloaded reports on the Idaho murders and did extensive searches
on the victims.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
Sat through the fact.

Speaker 4 (01:14:57):
Of course, because I mean the idle he's downloading reports
on the murders as well as.

Speaker 2 (01:15:02):
These extensive searches for the victims.

Speaker 3 (01:15:04):
Act.

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
Do you think he felt guilty, maybe like he was
maybe feuling some remorse and he was looking into it.

Speaker 5 (01:15:10):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
I think he took.

Speaker 4 (01:15:12):
Great pleasure in knowing how wonderful these these these young
adults work. I keep wanting to say kids, young adults.
I'm fifty on these are kids to me. I think
he took a lot of pleasure knowing how much pain
he caused. I really do. Yeah, Now this and this
is interesting. Why find network logs showing his phone passively

(01:15:34):
seeking out networks as you're walking through?

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:15:37):
One notable log tied his device to the mad Greek
and the mad Greek if you don't, if you're not
fully conversant, the mad Greek is where Zanna and Maddie worked.
Now we don't know from the article because they used
different verbs. And I'm in tech, so I understand these
these words, but they're not super clear on whether if

(01:15:57):
he joined the network or if he just it just
popped up on his phone.

Speaker 2 (01:16:04):
They're not clear.

Speaker 4 (01:16:05):
They use both terms interchangeably and they're very different. They
say passive in one and then they say joined in another.
So I'm not clear.

Speaker 7 (01:16:14):
But it is so interesting since the Mad Greek, I mean,
this has been something that's been discussed by many. Did
he indeed go and actually see any of the victims there?

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
And for the record, the Mad Greek if you don't
know what that is, it's this Vegan restaurant in Towns.
They have vegan food there and one of the only
in the area, So we know this murderer was a vegan,
so likely he would have gone there. And we also
know that Madison Mogen and you know Xaner Kernodle were
also waitresses there at one point and worked there. By

(01:16:49):
the way, in the documentary, we had to take it
out because there really wasn't any proof about the mad Greek.
So that was one of the many, many details that
we had to really legally leave out because it wasn't
one hundred percent facts, right, And now we know that
that was at least a path crost, right, and how

(01:17:11):
ponting that is also right? Put it back in? Can
you can you put it back in? Then we're gonna
go back.

Speaker 4 (01:17:16):
Well, the other section of this article talks about his
relationship with his mother, and it's very interesting. In call
and text record show he contacted his parents incessantly, starting
starting the morning after the murders. So this is what
she said, Starting at six thirteen am the morning after
the murders, he's calling and texting his mom and dad

(01:17:39):
non stop. It was incessant, Heather said, interesting, interesting, right,
which we know, and that's a relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
We learned that from dateline and we weren't sure if
it was true.

Speaker 4 (01:17:49):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:17:49):
We also learned that even right before he was actually
sentenced or was saying I'm guilty and you know, went
to his you know what is it called why might
change his when he changed his plea that you know infamous?
You know day what is it a month ago now
that he was you know, with his mom calling her
on the phone all day, all night from the jail

(01:18:10):
he was being housed in. This is around the phone
with his mom, right, Jared said.

Speaker 4 (01:18:14):
The moment we started to look at the messaging, it
made me think of the Bates Motel, referencing the movie
Psycho right in Norman Bates.

Speaker 2 (01:18:21):
And here's what he says.

Speaker 4 (01:18:22):
I mean it was like mother and the label mother
and the constant contact with his mom.

Speaker 2 (01:18:28):
It was wild. That's a direct quote.

Speaker 4 (01:18:30):
This is a professional We should unpack this.

Speaker 3 (01:18:33):
I know, I would love to see a spreadsheet relative
to the frequency before me too homicides where he was
calling Mama and daddy too, and then afterwards just to
kind of compare and contrast here.

Speaker 2 (01:18:47):
I want the whole celebrate report.

Speaker 4 (01:18:49):
Email me hello at body mooveing dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:18:54):
This is also very interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:18:56):
On December twenty ninth, this is the day before the arrest,
Coberger began calling and texting his parents obsessively, just like
he had the morning of the murders. But I don't
know why he's calling them. He's at their host but whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
Right, he's started for in the basement, this guy. So
he had a very real relationship. His mom was very
protective of him, right, because he was this odd, weird
kid that she was probably trying to protect, right.

Speaker 7 (01:19:20):
Yeah, And there's a lot more of this will keep
unpacking during the week and as the information unfolds, as
it will continue to as the court releases documents.

Speaker 2 (01:19:29):
We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Steph here
with Courtney and body and of course Joseph Scott Morgan,
forensics expert and host of the podcast Body Bags three
a week he does. So if you have not tuned
in to listen, do you tune into a podcast? Yeah
you can, ish make sure you download his podcast three

(01:19:50):
times a week. That's three body Bags cases. And he's
just the best and they're so good. So more of
that and more of him to come. And also this
week listen, we have a lot to cover. I haven't
heard too much of you guys talking about Epstein, So
we're gonna have to do a proper ketchup on that
tomorrow because I have plenty listens my vacation. Okay, fine, fine, man,

(01:20:12):
So we do have to do a little unpack about
that tomorrow for sure. Remember, everybody, we have talkback Tuesdays happening,
so listen. If we didn't get to your talk back tonight,
it's just because we've been blabbering too much. And I apologize,
but them is literally let's just let's just blame me.
And that said, we have talkback Tuesdays coming up, so

(01:20:34):
make sure you start bringing them. Just download the iHeart
app top right hand corner, leave, push the button, leave
a message, and boom you are on the show. And
I don't know what to tell you, but this Maril
Monroe thing has got me stumped. So if you have
any comments about that, please let us know as well.
This night has flown by me. Anything you want to share.

Speaker 7 (01:20:56):
I mean, I also, I honestly, my cackles or hackles
or whatever, raise is got so high when you mentioned
that the same corner treated both Marilyn Monroe and the Kennedys,
and yeah, so I'm just going to be I don't know,
doing some conspiratorial research.

Speaker 4 (01:21:13):
That's I think we should talk about that case a
little bit more. Actually, yeah, very interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
You always doing the best cases, Joseph.

Speaker 3 (01:21:19):
We're gonna we're gonna be talking about it on Bodybacks.
I can assure major episode us know it. And also
we're going to be doing a retrospective on the career
of doctor Magucci. So that's going to be really cool
as well. David aren planning planning stages of that. But
we'll address Maryland's case as well.

Speaker 2 (01:21:39):
By the way, shout out to Dave.

Speaker 3 (01:21:42):
My Man.

Speaker 4 (01:21:43):
I got to talk today to our you know, uh,
somebody that I idolize, and so today has been like
a really great day for me. We're going to have
James Fitzgerald on our show. He is the former FBI
linguist who basically called the Unibomber, and if you haven't
seen Manhunt Unibomber.

Speaker 2 (01:22:01):
Please check it out.

Speaker 4 (01:22:02):
He is a personal idol of mine in fact, and
the girls will attest to this. I actually before he
came on, I almost threw up and started crying. Right,
and I was like, that is true. I was so nervous.
I was so nervous. So I'm just really excited to
talk to him. And he's going to be on our
show on Thursday. And you know, if you have any
questions for him, give us a call eighty eight thirty
one Crime or leave a talkback for him, like this

(01:22:25):
is the this is the guy, the guy that does
the he's amazing, right, Joseph.

Speaker 2 (01:22:31):
And the linguist guy is that he looks at language
right and so he can study manifestos also bodies like
you knowing being Her eyes were popping out of her head.
She was so excited.

Speaker 4 (01:22:43):
So when Taha told me that I was going to
have a chance to talk to him, I was like,
oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
I started calling himself Boston, Oh blessed am. I like,
I'm just an idiot. A good Sunday. I don't like
it when you say you're just an idiot. I know
you mean, I'm just like you. I'm just like everybody else.
That's all I meant. I'm not I'm an amateur. I'm
not an idiot.

Speaker 9 (01:23:03):
I was gonna say, I know Courtney is not an idiot,
so that must have been aimed at me. No fair enough,
fair enough, but not you body moving, not you Joseph
Scott Morgan, and not you Courtney or I'm strong.

Speaker 2 (01:23:17):
You're all good, so far, so good, so again eight
aight eight three one crime. And you can also leave
us some messages on our socials, at True Crime Tonight's
show on TikTok and Instagram, and at True Crime Tonight
on Facebook. So please any and all ways we will
take them. And by the way, if it's after ours,
you could also leave us a voicemail. I mean, there's

(01:23:38):
no excuse. So we're going to speak to you tomorrow.
We're looking forward to it already. Please have a wonderful
rest of your Sunday night. Be safe. We love you.
This is True Crime Tonight. We've talked to True Crime
for a lot of the time. We'll see you tomorrow.

Speaker 5 (01:23:52):
BA