Forensics Deep Dive: What the Idaho Documents Expose — And Why a Suspected 22-Year-Old Killer Isn’t Making Headlines

Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert and host of the hit podcast Body Bags, answers host and listener questions about newly unsealed details in the Idaho Student Murders case. Plus, continued coverage of the murder trial of Colorado dentist James Craig, discussion of a possible alternate suspect in the Barry Morphew case, and why 22-year-old Damien McDaniel could potentially become Alabama’s most prolific known killer if convicted. Tune in for all the details. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We'll retalk truecrime
all the time. It's Sunday, July twenty seventh, and we
have a stacked night of headlines. Forensic expert Joseph Scott
Morgan is here to help us understand the new crime
scene information in the Idaho student murder case. Court is
continuing for James Craig. He's the dentist who is accused

(00:40):
of poisoning his wife. And get this, the lead investigator
claims to have it on video. Later, Joseph Scott Morgan
will tell us about a potential serial killer in Alabama
and the reason media outlets are not covering it. But first,
you know him and you love him. It is our
favorite for forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan. He is joining

(01:03):
us for another Sunday to unpack forensics. Joseph is the
host of his own hit podcast, Body Bags, and is
also featured in Kati's Studio's documentary Everyone Should See it.
It's the Idhost Student Murders, which is streaming on Peacock.
I'm Courtney Armstrong. Stephanie Leidecker is out this evening, but
I'm here as always with Body Movin, our premier data

(01:26):
analyst and crime analyst, and of course Joseph.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 4 (01:32):
Thanks for having me. Guys. It's always a pleasure to
be on the air. Always good to see I look
forward to it, and this is I need support this week.
This has been a long week, man, you guys. I
am dog tired, we trained, you know, mentally drained everything else.
I'm glad that we can be together this evening.

Speaker 5 (01:49):
Yeah, you know, it has been a week, and of course,
you know we've been talking about everything that happened last week,
and we're going to cover that in just a moment.
But for you, Joseph, I've seen you everywhere, literally everywhere,
talking about the you know, the ungagging of the student
murder's case in Idaho and what's come out since then
and now. And we've only been doing it a couple
hours a night for the past week. You've been everywhere.

(02:11):
You must be just completely emotionally drained. Your brain must
be much at this point, So we really appreciate you
being here, especially just after this really heavy week we've
all had.

Speaker 4 (02:22):
Yeah. Yeah, And it's nothing, and I mean nothing compared
to the burden that these families have had to be
right all these years now, all of these years. And
I've reflected on this, I thought over the past week,
do because you know, I hate closure. I hate that word.
But I wonder if they feel any relief at all
knowing that this individual is secured away and that knowing,

(02:46):
knowing that people finally know the story as much as
we have of it right now. I wonder if there's
relief with that, and I hope there is, and I
hope that there's some I don't know, measure of peace.
Maybe daily piece is imparted to them and some I hope. So,
I truly do.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
I think everyone does, especially after seeing the victim's impact statements,
which happened just the other day, the same day of sentencing.
But listen, we've all been following this case, we know
you have largely from the beginning, and today we are
going to unpack all of the new information that's been
coming out just about the murders and also to see

(03:23):
if we can learn something from what's been going on.
So body, can you bring everyone up to speed on
the latest?

Speaker 5 (03:29):
Where are we right? So Brian Coberger inmate one six
three two one four, which is how we should refer
to him, but I know we can't because people who
need to be familiar with the case, they're not going
to know what we're talking about. But inmate one six
three two one four, he's been transferred to Idaho's maximum
security prison, where he will be evaluated and likely placed

(03:49):
in near solitary confinement. So after two years of you know,
pleading his innocence, saying he's not guilty, and blaming other
people and you know, trying to get all these motion
to dismiss he has pled guilty, and you know, he
has confessed to the brutal murders of four University of
Idaho students. I think it's important that we know their names,

(04:12):
Kaylee Consolves, Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, and Madison Mogen in
early July of this year. Brian Coberger was sentenced to
four consecutive life sentences on July twenty third and transferred
to the Idaho maxim Security Institution, where he is going
to be undergoing evaluation for his long term placement, and

(04:32):
I hope that you know his long term placement is
horrific and terrifying, and that he suffers greatly. After reading
all of these documents this past week, it's it's been
really difficult. I can't like and I want to echo
what Joseph said, I can't imagine all the families. You know,
I think when you were talking about the families, we
have to remember there's four of them, right, and so

(04:53):
you know in many cases six because you know they've
remarried or whatnot. And those people are also impawt and
they're not like a group. Well they are, but they
don't think as a group. They all have their individual
feelings and all of them are completely valid. And you know,
who are we to tell any family member how they
should feel. But our heart does go out to them,

(05:14):
and we hope that you know, here at True Crime Tonight,
we can treat tonight with a lot of care and
respect because we're going to be talking about the forensics,
and you know, some of it is pretty pretty gruesome.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
It's graphic, and I mean, honestly, this should probably be
a trigger warning to anyone there will be forensics and
to echobody, we will be doing it clinically with our
forensics expert and going over the stuff that would there
have been a trial. Should b K have not plt out,
we would have seen unfold over the course of the trial,

(05:49):
and instead it's.

Speaker 5 (05:50):
Being delivered from the court in this way.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Joseph, is there anything, and I know there's a lot
to get through, Is there anything that stood out to
you first thing of good question?

Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, well, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (06:06):
I think you know now that everything that has come
to light for me, I've had a couple of people
ask this. Even in my own mind, I don't think
I was prepared for the level of violence. That's as
plain and simple as I can put it. Maybe part
of me, as a as a father and a grandpa,
was hoping there wouldn't be as much. But from what

(06:28):
has been revealed to this point, for me at least,
is more overwhelming I think than even I anticipated. I
knew that it was going to be bad, but I
don't think that I anticipated that to this degree. And
again I echo your sentiments about respect, you know, for us,
and being sensitive to that. But this is the reality

(06:50):
of what people people need to understand what he did
and it needs to be remembered. And again going back
to you know, the sentencing is what's so unfortunate about
the absence of an allocution that this in a trial,
to just the absence of a trial. And I'm glad
the family didn't have to go through the trial. Okay,
understand that, but you know, people have wanted to know

(07:13):
for a protracted period of time, you know what happened
that night, And just from my little world of medical
legal death investigation, I think that it was more shocking
than Eve and I anticipated.

Speaker 5 (07:23):
Yeah, I echo that, I like I like you. I
knew it was violent, but the actual brutality of it all.
And you know, one thing that hit me, and I
don't know why it did, but it was when I
was reading one of the documents about the autopsy and
they were talking about what the victims were wearing and that,
you know, they had handbags on their hands, and for

(07:45):
some reason, I don't know why, but that's when I
kind of started crying, you know, and feeling it. It
got real heavy for me. They were wearing their pajamas
and now they're wearing handbags. Yeah, and it was just
it really hit me for some reason. Out of all
the things and all the brutality and all those on
these documents, that's what got me right now.

Speaker 4 (08:07):
Yeah, that's one of the things that happens, I think
in medical legal death investigation when you start to look
at an autopsy report, or when you start to look
at a field report, suddenly the again I've said it
for a long time, the abnormal is taken into the
context of the normal. You know, we live these normal
lives and you have this monster that descends upon you

(08:29):
and wreaks havoc in hell upon everybody.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, very true. This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio.
I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here with Body move In and
forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan. We're talking about the documents
that have come forth in the Idaho student murder case.
If you have any questions whatsoever, Joseph is here to
answer them for you. Eighty eight three one Crime or

(08:54):
you can also hit us on the talkbacks on iHeartRadio
and actually we have one now.

Speaker 6 (08:59):
Hi, guys, just regarding the Brian Coburger I had hosted
a murder's house still being up or being torn down?
I agree with body that it should have been torn
down because I have friends who went to to go
to Florida State University, which is where Ted Bundy murdered
the Kylemega sorority girls in the house, and I've always
thought it was so creepy and upsetting that that house

(09:19):
was still up and that sorority girl still live there, Like,
how do you still feel safe and you're not thinking
about the ghosts of those girls haunting you?

Speaker 7 (09:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (09:27):
I mean not only that, but you know, the one
of the victim's brother, you know, lived at the sorority
across the street and woke up every morning and was
able to look at that house with the caution tape
around it for months and months and months. And you know, again,
I'm going to maintain that I don't believe a jury
would have ever been able to enter that house. I

(09:48):
think it was too forensically altered floors, walls. The judge
would never have allowed acoustic testing with the jury there.
I just don't think the jury would have gone in there.
On the other hand, I do think forensically there could
have been things they could have missed. You know, that
experts could have gone in and gotten things so on
that side of things. I can understand why people are upset.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
It was torn down early, So Joseph, I've had the
benefit of doing interviews and having discussions with you on
the podcast, and I have a feeling, unless you've changed
your view, do you want to let people know what
you're feeling about when the house was demolished?

Speaker 5 (10:26):
What is your feeling?

Speaker 4 (10:28):
Was not a fan when I found out that they
had done it at all, and I made that known
stand by that assertion from early on. Now it's a
moot point now, and I'm glad that it's gone, just
like he is gone, and I think that it is
time to move on. However, again, I go back to

(10:52):
two other events in time, where why is it that
would this case where to make an exception? And you know,
many of us that have worked in the field for
a long time have handled cases in houses, and there
have been multiple homicides in houses. There are actual different events,
and those structures were never worn down. Why tear this

(11:15):
one down? And now that the scene is sign sealed
and delivered. I have no problem with being down now.
I just think that it was a hell of a
risk take early on, before all the pieces were in place,
and again, I'll never You'll never persuade me otherwise. And
I reflect back to Parkland with that horrible, horrible event,

(11:37):
and that's how they kept you lockdown.

Speaker 5 (11:39):
Isn't Parkland still kind of intact or am I?

Speaker 4 (11:42):
You know, I'm not really sure at this point. It
had utility though in that trial, and I think that
that's the most important, and then went to great links
to kind of secure it and of course coordinate. You know,
all we have to do is think back to Pike them. Yes,
and we think about those trade I mean, how crazy
is that? You know, you think about those structures actually

(12:02):
physically being moved in my lord? How many hours did
we talk about that?

Speaker 5 (12:06):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (12:06):
And do you remember that they failed at one point
time to secure the gate where they had actually secured
those places? You know, a reporter went to the gate
and I'm talking about piked and where the lock was
not locked. And so security is paramount, and any of
these things, you want to lock it down and keep it,
keep it held in place tightly so that you know
you can't go back and receieve. But now I think

(12:28):
that we're past that, We're past that market.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yeah, fair enough.

Speaker 5 (12:43):
Later in the show, though, we have eighteen murders in
Alabama that have been connected to the same twenty two
year old. Could there be a serial killer? And the
lead investigator in the ongoing Colorado dopey dentist trial testified
to video of him potentially mixing the poison. Wow, So
that's pretty insane. But right now we have a caller.

Speaker 8 (13:05):
Hi, christ how are you good?

Speaker 3 (13:06):
How are you?

Speaker 9 (13:07):
Hey? How are you?

Speaker 8 (13:07):
I'm doing really well.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Thanks.

Speaker 8 (13:09):
I have a question for Joseph Scott Morgan.

Speaker 4 (13:11):
Okay, Hey, Kristen.

Speaker 8 (13:13):
So, there was a large chunk of I guess plaster
removed from the wall of Maddie's bedroom and it is
in the location of and in the size.

Speaker 5 (13:26):
Of her death, right next to her death.

Speaker 8 (13:30):
Yeah, next to her death. And I'm wondering why do
you think that chunk was removed and do you think
there's could there be anything that happened in that in
that area.

Speaker 7 (13:40):
Of the room.

Speaker 5 (13:41):
That's a good question, something I've been actually talking about
quite a bit.

Speaker 4 (13:45):
Yeah. I mean, from my perspective, I think that the
number one candidate is probably going to be blood deposition,
anything that is cast off, And I often describe it
this way to my students. Just imagine taking a paint
brush and dipping it into a paint pail and just
kind of flicking it over your shoulder. Also, it's not
just dynamic deposition. It could be for instance, it can

(14:08):
be a transfer. Say, for instance, if you're wearing clothing
that's super saturated with blood and you got to lean
on a particular area, that's actually a transfer of blood
to an object. The only other thing I could really
think about probably is in because this is a very
violent event. I don't know if it carried over that

(14:32):
far the actual violence, perpetration the violence. But if you
have an individual that punches a wall, that bump into
a wall, particularly if it's sheet rock, you can have
actual trace transfer that goes into that, just into the
gypsum that makes up the actual sheet rock that'll transfer

(14:52):
onto there. And also the gypsum will transfer onto the
clothing of an individual as well. I've seen that happen.

Speaker 5 (14:59):
Thank you for the ca Kristen. The reason that I
think the reason she's asking this is because the documents
tell us that Kaylee's bed looks like it had been
slept in or it had been turned down, like she
had been in bed and gotten up and since the
faral target scan back in Halloween of twenty twenty three,
we've gotten pictures from inside Bettie's room with that wall

(15:22):
cut out. So we've been wondering for a minute, a
hot minute, if Kaylee was actually in bed, and the
Dylan is emphatic that she heard Kaylee run down the
stairs and say someone's here and then run back up,
but the police are implying that was Xanna. So there's
often there's a lot of talk about did Kaylee interrupt

(15:43):
him and that's why he was so upset with her?
You know, like just from the forensics from the report,
Kaylee was brutalized, Yeah, like absolutely brutalized. Yeah, And did
he interrupt? Did he interrupt? Did she interrupt him and
he was just furious at her for this? Or did
Zana see him and that interrupt him. So there's just

(16:03):
a lot of talk about who But the point is
is somebody interrupted him, though at some point we don't
know who it was.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
But if you're just joining us, we're talking about the
Idaho student College murders. Brian Coolberger has just been sentenced
and is behind bars for life, and that is for
murdering Hailey Gonzalvez, Ethan Shapin, Xana Kernodle, and Madison Mogan.
So those are the four victims that we're referring to.

(16:32):
And yeah, there was also two roommates thankfully spared at
the house body that you were mentioning. So there's a
lot of players and some confusion. I think we actually
have a talkback to go to how back number two.

Speaker 10 (16:47):
Hey, ladies, Sisiligan, I agree. I feel like this BK
case has just been a tipping point for me in
terms of how I feel safe in certain places. Oh,
I deleted all my social media last year, but still
the sister whole new level. Well, thank you Boddy for
the recommendation on Google Maps. That's something that's always creeped
me out. My question is, after reading all the documents,
do we really think that Kaylee and Maddie were asleep

(17:09):
when this happened. I just feel with how their bodies
were found in Dylan's statements that maybe they were placed
that way. It's just off to me.

Speaker 5 (17:17):
Yeah, you know, And that's another thing. Did Kaylee open
the door and oh my god, someone's here, right, and
that interrupt him and he attack her at the end
of the bed and kind of throw her onto the bed.
We don't know. The police are kind of opining that
it was Xana that interrupted him and that's why he

(17:37):
left the sheath. Some of the forensics tells us that
it was Kaylee, but we don't know all the forensics
yet either. There's still a lot of sealed documents. There's
still so much This is all just speculation at this point,
irregardless who whichever victim, Xana or Kaylee, one of them
interrupted him, and you know, unfortunately that's why he left

(18:00):
the sheath.

Speaker 2 (18:01):
I think, And Joseph, do you have a thought and
I you know, as body mentioned, not all of the
forensics have been released, but do you have a thought
to what that color just said.

Speaker 4 (18:11):
Yeah, it's again keep using this word dynamic in this
particular case, because it is dynamic. It's in the dark.
There's an element of surprise that goes on here, and
it's really hard to kind of this kind of literal
dance with death that goes on. You don't know how
it actually went down when you consider the positionality of

(18:32):
the bodies. And it's important to understand. I think that
we do have more information now, but not everything has
been revealed. I am really keen on trying to understand
a lot of the blood deposition, and I mean in
like granular detail, to try to understand the movements around

(18:54):
the location and any kind of deposition that would have
been on the floor of the walls. We go back
to the earlier from Kristen that call relative to that,
I think that it's going to be really important to
try to understand that. And if you're looking to the
bedclothes themselves, the sheets, you know there was this pink
blanket that was involved in that sort of thing. I

(19:15):
want to know the origin point of origin of that.
Is that something that was done after the fact. Is
that something that he had done?

Speaker 5 (19:21):
Because it does say they were both under the.

Speaker 4 (19:23):
Cover, right, Yeah, it does say that. And again you
go to this thing of people covering bodies after homicides.
If that happened, that's a very significant piece of.

Speaker 5 (19:34):
This, right it is a very because that's one thing
people say, that's why it wasn't Kaylee that interrupted him,
because she was under the covers, right, So that's a
really good thing to bring up.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah, and Joseph, what do you find from all of
your experience? What do you find is the significance. And
I ask, because listen, this is as like a TV
and movie watcher. It's to my TV knowledge, it would
be oh, because you knew the person and I had
reverence for them. But what are other potential interpretations as.

Speaker 4 (20:04):
Far as covering goes. Yes, I think probably the biggest
thing that jumps to mind is familiarity with an individual,
and a lot can be read into that when people
start talking about the history onics of this case. And
this again is in the profiling section, not my section,
but we read these things that seems as actual eyes
on people and you begin to think about who who

(20:26):
would take the time to cover a body? And you know,
we make note of that at the scene because it's significant.
And here's something else I think that's important. I want
to know who had ownership of that blanket, who's the
actual owner? Is this Kayley's or is this Mattie's blanket?
Is it something that was brought in or is it
something that had dwelled there previously. It's very important to

(20:48):
try to understand that, and also the level of saturation
of blood that was on that blanket as well.

Speaker 5 (20:54):
Right, And then we learned from Steve Consolves that the
blood pooling for Kayley, his daughter, his lovely, beautiful, wonderful daughter,
indicated that she was sitting up when she was getting attacked. Yeah,
and I think, you know, that's interesting. One thing I
wanted to ask you one of the documents is it's
number two forty six, if that's important to anybody. It

(21:15):
is an interview with one of Brian's like co students
at WSU, and it talks about like some of his
personality and you know, he kind of thought Brian Coberger
was a liar because he had lied about flying home
and he was using his position as an authority as
a TA to inappropriately interact with female students. It gives

(21:38):
a little bit of background on who he thought Brian
Coberger was, and it wasn't a good guy. But in
this document he mentions that Brian Coberger on two different
occasions had kind of strange injuries. He had scratches to
his face and his knuckles were bruised, and he said
that it was around the time of the homicides, but
he couldn't remember if it was in October or November.

(22:01):
And I wanted to know if Brian Colberger was wearing
a ballakava, if let's say Maddie because the mixture of
DNA under her fingernails. We could talk about this too
in the next segment a little bit. Could those have
left a scratch mark on his face even though he
was wearing a ballakava?

Speaker 4 (22:18):
Yeah? I think so. It all depends on the malleability
of the mask itself. If everybody at home will kind
of look at your fingertips just for a second, look
down the long axis of your fingers, your fingers, your
finger nails are curved. Imagine that your fingernails are plows
being pulled by a tractor, Okay, and your plow on
a field, it leaves furrows. Same thing happens with a

(22:41):
scratch mark. So as you drag these fingernails down a surface,
say somebody's neck or somebody's face, you're creating a tiny
furrow there. It almost comes across as an abrasion. And
what also happens, just like with a plow behind a tractor,
is that you know, skin and tissue pought up on

(23:02):
those fingernails, just like the dirt does on a plow.
And so if you can examine those fingernails, you begin
to think about scientifically, can we link this to him,
what would be really important to know is what stage
of healing those are? Oh yeah, and the exactly couple
that were the dates?

Speaker 5 (23:19):
Yeah, right, Well, one thing to note on that too,
And that same report, his person asked to Coburger about
the scratches and the Bruce knuckles, and he said he
was in a car accident. So we know he's lying.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
Well, right, we know that, and as he has for
a long time before he pled out. Now we're going
back to our coverage of the newly released information it's
just being unsealed in the Idaho student murders case. And

(23:55):
for that we have our favorite forensic expert, Joseph Scott Morgan,
and we're going to start with the question from you guys,
can we have talk back number nine?

Speaker 3 (24:04):
Hi?

Speaker 11 (24:05):
My name is Amanda. I'm from Missouri. The biggest thing
that I was wondering about Brian Coleworger and something that
I just couldn't make sense of, is the house was
pretty confusing layout wise, and so I'm wondering how he
was able to get in and out very quickly and

(24:28):
just seems to know exactly where he needed to go.
Would you really be able to tell from the outside
of the house. The layout of it that well, or
maybe it was a combination of perhaps stocking the social
media is on top of that. It's just something that
I was really curious about.

Speaker 5 (24:46):
Yeah, I mean, that's a really a lot of people
wonder that because there's a step that goes right in
front of Dylan's door. There's a little step, like, how
did he know there was a step there? You know,
things like that. And these were college kids, you know,
they were prolific on social media. They made videos of
you know, doing impressions of each other really cute, you know,
and making fun of one another. Inside the home. They

(25:08):
did little dances on TikTok. You know. These were again,
these are college students, so you know, they had Instagram pictures.
There's also websites like Zillo, and you know, this house
was a rental, so the layout of the house is
completely explorable on websites like that, right. So, And additionally,
you guys, we learned in the documents from Bethany, who

(25:29):
is one of the surviving roommates. She was on the
first floor, she was on the ground level. We learned
that Kaylee had kind of mentioned that she went to
take Murphy out to go potty.

Speaker 12 (25:40):
About about a month before the event the murders, she
went to take her dog out to go potty and
there was like a creepy guy kind of spying on them, right,
And you know, it could have been him.

Speaker 5 (25:54):
It could have been Brian Koberger looking in and peeping
in and spying on them and learning that way. So
there's any number of ways, right, what do you guys think.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
I think you're spot on body with in this particular case,
and actually in most of our cases, most of the
places we live are available on zillow or if we're
showing on social media, you know, Grandma's ninety fifth birthday
party at your house and you see, you know, you're
walking from the kitchen with the cake and then you see, oh,
you have to walk down three steps to get out

(26:24):
to the sliding glass door. Right, So really, any of
us could have our information found, yeah that way. And yeah,
so I'm not sure. I do have one kind of
burning forensic question. I feel like me, joseaih, let's do it.
I'm a little bit confused by this. In victim Killie
Gonzalvez's case, there was mention of a round object with

(26:49):
stripes in some of the documents that came out. Are
you able to fill us in a little bit about
what that might indicate?

Speaker 4 (26:57):
Yeah, okay, So for me, if you look at a
k bar knife, k bar knife is in a horizontal plane.
If you have a kbar knife on its tip, okay,
in the horizontal plane. If you look at the handle,
it has these deep furrowed you can call them stripes,
and it's meant to be able to to, yeah, to

(27:22):
grip it better. And it's got kind of the it
almost I don't want to say felt, but it's almost
like brushed leather is the way the thing feels. And
these furrows are kind of deep. And it was made
for jungle fighting. The Marines used it all over the
South Pacific during World War Two, so you could grip
if your hands were sweating. And if you're using this
as a bludgeon, and what I mean is you're not

(27:44):
using the blade. You're actually using the end of the knife,
which is round. It's circular, it's about the size of
a quarter. It's got rounded edges. You can pound on
something doing that. You know, Marines have been known to
use this thing a hammer. To give you an idea
of how resilient this thing is. And then if you

(28:04):
use it as almost like you wrap your hand around
the handle, you could get that effect. If part of
the handle is sticking out, you could get these kind
of marks that will look like stripes that would marry
up its classic impression evidence. You know, I don't have
any way to discount it, but I don't necessarily buy
into the idea of two weapons. I think the way

(28:27):
the cave art is constructed, it actually has multiple utility
for it. That's the why it was created by our military,
so it could be used in all kinds of conditions cutting, hacking, stabbing,
defending building something, or open opening boxes of ammunition with
this thing is really robust and heavy by the way.

Speaker 5 (28:50):
Well, and also it stef Gonsalves told us that they
mentioned like around these round impressions, and I was looking
at tactical gloves because you know, I believe he was
wearing tactical gloves. I mean, it would make sense, and
a lot of them have those raised like knuckle plastic,

(29:11):
you know, to protect somebody's knuckles. Maybe something like that
as well as the handle of the knife could have
made those impressions.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
I wonder.

Speaker 4 (29:19):
Yeah, and the trick is And I really wonder if
they did this at autopsy where they were able to
get another k bar. You can get them very easily.
And because we do this in the morgue, actually you
bring in I've been there when they bring a murder
suspected murder weapon into the more, particularly knives, and we'll

(29:40):
take a look at them and take photos and that
sort of thing. And I wonder if that exists out there,
you would do it with scale to give people an
idea as to the size of it.

Speaker 5 (29:51):
Wow, well, I mean, don't you think they would have
matched that up or tried to And if they did
what they have told Steve, you know, consolved about this,
like I don't know.

Speaker 4 (30:01):
I don't know. He's a pretty bright guy. I got
to tell you. He's drawn a lot of conclusions based
upon the information that he was given. And he is
he's one of my heroes along with it.

Speaker 5 (30:12):
Oh yeah, Oh, I'm incredible this takedown she did. If
you guys didn't hear the s takedown, you're gonna need
to go listen. But right now, stay right here on
True Crime tonight. You're listening to us, And I'm body
moved and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and forensics expert
Joseph Scott Morgan, and we're kind of digging into some
of these Moscow Police Department documents that have been released
and we're going to be talking about some of the forensics.

(30:33):
I wanted to talk about this soil sample if it's okay,
and I hope hopefully this is interesting for other people
as it was for me. So in some of the
documents and it mentions that they took soil samples from
the shovel that was in the back of Brian Coberger's
Hondai Elantra. And then what they did was they took

(30:53):
soil samples from around Moscow all right and surrounding areas, right,
and they sent it off to the line. Well, there
were two reports that came back. One was for the
soil and it did match soil from around that area
and had some sort of like acidic properties that mentioned
it was near water. Okay, So that's one thing. And
then the second thing was a geologist with the FBI

(31:17):
wrote back and said the pollen that is on the
shovel does not match any native species to this area
and listed the trees that it was and one of
them was red maple, I believe, and so I of
course was like, Okay, where's red maple native to? And
it's native to like Indiana eastward right, and I thought

(31:40):
that was really interesting. So is it possible, you guys
follow me? Okay, is it possible that after the murders
he buried with the shovel, the clothing and whatever kind
of go bag he had or container whatever, you know,
those things that aren't detected by a metal detector. Okay,

(32:02):
buried those, kept the knife, went home, and then on
two days later searched for sheath because he still has
the knife. On the fifteenth, bribes with the knife with
his dad to Indiana, gets pulled over, starts freaking out,
Oh my god, I'm getting pulled over. I just got
pulled over twice and nine minutes I got to get

(32:25):
rid of this knife, and then dumps the knife from
Indiana to Pennsylvania somewhere.

Speaker 4 (32:33):
Can I can I ask everybody a question, because.

Speaker 5 (32:36):
You're going to ask me why it matters, aren't you?

Speaker 4 (32:38):
No, I'm not no, I'm going to This is what
I'm going to ask. Why in the hell does a
PhD student need a shovel that's not well that that
lives in an apartment. Why do you need a shovel?
And that's a good question. I don't understand that because

(32:58):
I keep returning to this. You're living a monastic existence
as a PhD, particularly early on in your career as
a PhD student. I can't imagine he would have time
to go out and I don't know, practice agriculture or
want to go out and plant trees like Johnny appleseed

(33:19):
or something like. It doesn't make sense, It really doesn't.

Speaker 5 (33:23):
I don't know. I just thought it was interesting. But
right now we have a talkback talkback eight.

Speaker 13 (33:27):
Do we get that one Hi had this from Wisconsin? Again,
that's a question you guys were talking about why DK
might have spared Dylan. Is there a chance and I
admittingly haven't listened to the most recent episode yet, but
is there a chance he thought that maybe she had
heard more and had already awarded the police. Oh yeah,

(33:48):
I thought he had a choice to either get out
and didn't want to take more time, like he maybe
thought the police were.

Speaker 10 (33:54):
On their way.

Speaker 5 (33:55):
You know what, the simplest answer is probably you know,
and that's probably the simplest answer. Yeah, I think that's
absolutely a possibility.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
What do you guys think, Yeah, I think it does
you know, it's conjecture. Obviously none of us are there, No,
But yeah, there's a multitude of reasons that it was
time that BKA, this killer said, okay, I have to
get out of this house. Whether whether he thought one
of the two surviving roommates called nine to one one
or just some internal alarm was saying, you've been here

(34:27):
long enough, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
Joseph.

Speaker 4 (34:30):
Yeah, I think that the adrenaline rush had worn off
by that time, and just to put it this way,
very bluntly, this was like an orgy of violence, and
he was completely spent by this time. I think it's
a combination of that fear kicking in, if this reptile
can feel fear, because just looking at him it seems
as though, you know, he's devoid of that, but survival

(34:54):
maybe where he wants to survive and get out of there.
He spent himself at this point, and now you know,
one more person that he would have to eliminate, could
run the risk of him losing his freedom and potentially
his life. Eventually.

Speaker 5 (35:12):
Is a reptile.

Speaker 4 (35:13):
He is a reptile.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
Yeah, that is well, observed Joseph.

Speaker 5 (35:16):
If you want to weigh in and give us a call,
do so at one eight eight eight thirty one Crime
or use the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app. You know,
we have a really special opportunity to talk to a
forensics expert. And there's all these you know, forensics questions
that we have in this document dump. And you know,
like there's one thing that I've been kind of dying
to ask about. It's these sparks. So, Joseph. In one

(35:38):
of two of the interviews with Bethany, she's the surviving roommate.
She lived on the bottom floor, which by all accounts,
Brian Colberger, the convicted murderer in this case, did not
go downstairs to that floor by all accounts. But here's
what she says. She says she went to sleep and
in doing so, she was watching like something on her tablet.

(35:59):
She turned off her tablet, went to sleep, and around
four o'clock, anywhere from four o'clock to four twenty a m.
She saw sparks. She mentioned a sparkler at first in
her first interview. In her second interview she said sparks,
but in both she said it she also heard like
a firecracker go off. So a firecracker and sparks under

(36:19):
her bathroom door or her bedroom door. What do you
guys think that could mean?

Speaker 14 (36:23):
Like?

Speaker 5 (36:23):
What could it be like a taser? Could it be? Now,
it should be mentioned there were no mentions of any
kind of taser marks from the medical examiner that we
know about. But could a taser do something like that?
Could it be her, you know, Xana opening the door
for door dash? What do you guys think?

Speaker 4 (36:39):
Yeah, in my experience, a taser doesn't my experience, it
sounds like I've been tased. But in my experience, a
taser doesn't necessarily make a popping sound like a firework.
It'll have more of a crackling sound, Okay, And so yeah,
for me, it's very confusing and all. So, if let's

(37:01):
just run with this and say that it was a firecracker,
there would be remnant of that everywhere. If that were
to be discharged right there or set off right there,
you get sharps of paper that go all over the place.
There'd also be gunpowder residue that would be there as well,
or propelling or whatever they call it that they fuel
these things with. And that's a testable thing.

Speaker 5 (37:24):
If it was a firecracker, I mean I can't imagine
it actually was, But if it was, would evidence of
that had been in these document dumps? Would the police
would it have been in some kind of incident report,
a supplemental report that we would have gotten.

Speaker 4 (37:37):
Well, what they would do is this in the questioning
when they're questioning her, they will say, you know, the
subject makes comment about this. This was followed up and
we examined the area. We saw no evidence of it.
Because listen, this is a principle in forensics and in
law enforcement. Negative findings are just as important as positive

(38:00):
find So you have to document even the absence of things.
You're trying to confirm this, And so I would say
it'd be worth their time to go and look at it.
It's right there inside that doorway, that Alco.

Speaker 5 (38:14):
Area. Yeah, yeah, it's a small area right there.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
For I mean, could it be as simple as a
car peeling out or peeling in, whether it was door
dash or you know, murderer BK and you know the
flash the headlights flash really quick around a turn to
get there, and a car just you know, that's absent
any other information.

Speaker 5 (38:38):
That's my thought. I just under her door. It's really specific,
and she said a sparkler, So she actually saw she
thought were sparks.

Speaker 4 (38:48):
Yeah, she has. That's very specific information. There's no need
for her to lie about that. I know there's nothing
in it. So she saw something, and it's important that
you point out you mentioned it twice in two separate interviews.

Speaker 5 (39:02):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
Right now.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
Producer Taha had a question for Joseph. Hello, Joseph.

Speaker 15 (39:18):
You know, I have much I love when you're on
the show and dig into the forensics. But mine is
it's kind of a simple question. But now that we
have more information about you knowing everything that they've sort
of explained, like little things that we're learning, like based
on the stab, wounds or the body placement and everything

(39:39):
else we're discovering, can we get an idea of maybe
Coburger's state of mind, Like was he panicked? Was he
you know, in control? Was he a frenzy state of mind?
Like do the wounds and things that we're seeing give
you an insight into his state of mind?

Speaker 4 (39:54):
Yeah? I think they do, particularly if you know, God
bless her family. If you look at Kaylee, the trauma
which was inflicted upon her, this is a frenzied event.
You've got clusters apparently multiple stab wounds. The Gonzalveez family
reported at one point time thirty four. The police have
stated twenty anytime in our world, anytime you start to

(40:17):
get over like five, you know that there's some kind
of pathology going on, because that becomes kind of a
frenzied kind of event. And the other trauma that was
inflicted upon her, Yeah, I think that you've got somebody
that has dealing with serious rage, perhaps wants to be
in control and doesn't appreciate being interrupted at all, and

(40:42):
that was you know, it was acted out in real
time there.

Speaker 5 (40:46):
I want to kind of add on to Joseph's expert
opinion with my layman stuff too. And I read all
these documents in document number thirty two if that matters
to you, and if you want to know, it's when
the police are visiting the Spokanet Medical Examiner's office. And
this is a very very sensitive document, so trigger warning
before you go into it. But the doctor doctor s

(41:09):
said that the weapon used was not serrated, single edged,
very sharp and said a lot of force was used
by the suspect. That's a quote directly from that document,
he's using a lot of force and she can tell
this from those wounds to right. So he and it's

(41:29):
again to Joseph's point, you know, there was over twenty
wounds with Kylee, poor k Lee at or at least
thirty let's say, right, if we take the middle of
what the consolvests are saying and the medical examiner or
the police, i'd say, and then poor Xana over fifty.
And these were very deep, forceful injuries. So in my opinion,

(41:51):
and I'm a layman, I'm nobody, but in my opinion,
he was filled with rage.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
Yeah, I agree, And it's an asymmetrical attack where he's
in a dominant position, particularly with the young ladies upstairs.
He is over them. And so when you start to
talk about force and just kind of driving going down,
it's demonstrated. I think in the injuries that you have.
I think that that's a bit that we can read

(42:17):
into it, again qualifying that saying we don't have all
of the information. But in this asymmetry that's going on here,
you have this force that's going down with a very heavy, heavy,
robust blade and an individual that is so freaking out
of his mind with rage for whatever reason, and he

(42:38):
is hammering these poor poor kids.

Speaker 3 (42:43):
I have a question, Joseph.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
So this is very heavot in the case of if
you were a pure layman, So, for example, do you
need to practice with a weapon like this. I don't
know if, oh, that's a thing, because I feel I
don't know. I'm by nature and I'm just curious if
in general people practice.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
Yeah, that's an excellent question. And here's another little insight
here that we did pick up on. You guys had
mentioned single edged and nonserrated. Here's another little tidbit here
that they added sharp, very sharp. My wife, Kim, bought
me one of these knives because I was doing all
these appearances and right out of the box I could

(43:30):
shave a hair on the back of my hand with
this thing. It's so right out of the box. It
doesn't have to be stoned at all. And so with
that said, it's very very it's very task oriented. It's made,
it did what it's made to do.

Speaker 5 (43:46):
I just had an eureka moment. In the documents, the
court documents prior to all this other release, we learned
that Brian Koberger when he bought the when he bought
the k bar knife on Amazon. He also purchased a
sharpener right well. The knife was from the wound inspection.
The medical examiner said the knife was very sharp. Could
the sparks have been a knife sharpener?

Speaker 4 (44:08):
I don't know. I mean I suppose so, but let
me go back just for.

Speaker 5 (44:12):
Sorry, okay, because a Eureka moment, I was like, oh
my god, wait a minute.

Speaker 4 (44:16):
No relative what Courtney said with practicing, generally, if you
practice with a knife, you dull the knife. And so
they're saying sharp knife. But he did buy a sharpener,
according to what I would say, So if he if
he stoned the knife, you know, prior to going going
out that night, and he had been practicing, Yeah, perhaps,

(44:39):
But the scene is so very sharp that they made
note of it. I hate to say this, but I'll
go ahead and go down this road. It's not just
soft tissue that this instrument is traveling through. We have
bony structures, and they do dull a knife, but the
scene is so robust and so well made that it's

(45:00):
going to take a lot more than that to merely
dull it. If we found I promise you, if we
found that weapon, if they found that weapon, it's still
had an edge on it.

Speaker 5 (45:09):
Would it really Yes?

Speaker 4 (45:11):
I think that it probably would. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (45:13):
Wow, you're listening to True Crime Tonight, where we talk
true crime all the time. I'm Boddy Moven and I'm
here with Courtney Armstrong and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan.
And right now we're unpacking all the forensic evidence in
the Moscow Police Department document dump. But if you want to,
if you want to weigh in, give us a call
at eighty eight thirty one Crime or leave us a

(45:33):
talk back on the iHeartRadio app. But right now we're
going to do a quick shift. Courtney, you have an
update in Barry Morphu's case. What do you have I do?

Speaker 2 (45:42):
And this is a case we're going to be covering
in a real We're going to do deep dive next week.
So Susanne Morphew, you may remember this poor woman disappeared
on Mother's Day of twenty twenty and she was on
a bike ride allegedly near her home in Colorado. Quickly,
suspicion went to her husband, Barry Morphew, who was charged

(46:06):
one year later.

Speaker 5 (46:07):
In twenty twenty.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
One, charges were dropped due to prosecuteutorial misconduct. But now
it's back on It seems like the case is back
on in case back on track rather so the update
is that unknown male DNA was found in Suzanne morphuz
vehicle with partial twenty twenty one CODUS matches to unsolved

(46:30):
sexual assaults and it is being speculated as a potential
defense in Barry Morpheu's upcoming trial. And Joseph, does this
fall under your area of expertise with the partial codis matching.

Speaker 4 (46:45):
Yeah, yeah, I think that it does include exclude you
begin to think about the biological remnant that is left behind.
And if you want me to answer the broader question,
is this going to be brought up? Yeah? Yeah, And
I ain't no defense attorney, but if I were, I
think in considering considering what he's facing now at this point, yeah,

(47:12):
I guarantee you I throw this against the wall to
see if it sticks, because it might resonate with any
potential jurors here. Just that kind of specter in the
background is going to create reasonable doubt. I mean, and
these are this is not some kind of passive This
is not some kind of passive finding. You're talking about
something that's linked to an actual sex crime, and we

(47:33):
have this woman who has been assaulted. There's no evidence,
at least that I have heard that there was a
sexual assault involved, but I always go in with any
case involving a female where female has been the victim
of a homicide, I'm assuming that there's probably some kind
of underpinning of sexual tension there on some level. That's
why I think that all those cases need rape kids

(47:55):
done because you need to have them. But in her case,
of course that's not possible. But hossibility of this if
you can interject us into or injected into the courtroom.
Uh yeah, I think that this is this is significance.
And I've heard about this for some time. I'm going
to be fascinated to see what they come up with.

(48:15):
Who just links back to and how did it wind
up in her glovebox. I think that that's a fascinating
bit of data there too. Wow.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
Okay, so we'll really be diving deep into this. I
never expected that.

Speaker 5 (48:28):
I'm I'm going to be really I never expected this
in this that in this case, I never expected anything
like this.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
No, not at all.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
And body, did you have a quick update on another
case we will be getting into next week, which.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
One our dentists.

Speaker 5 (48:44):
Oh, the dopey dentist. Yeah, I don't know if I have.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (48:49):
I have a little bit. So Oh, no, I you do,
I do. I'm so sorry. I do have an update.
So the witness has continued to testify all of last
week in the murder trial of Colorado dentist. We're calling
him the dopey dentist, by the way, James Craig. On Friday,
the lead investigator his name or her name, I'm sorry,
is Detective Bobby Olsen, testified to the video footage of

(49:10):
Craig in the process of what could be him mixing
the poison to kill his wife. So right now he
stands accused of fatally poising his wife, Angela forty three,
the beautiful mother of his six children, with cyanide and
tetra hydrausolene, which is like the substance that's found in
eye droppers via her protein shakes, in order to pursue
a new romantic life. The defense is challenging the warrant

(49:33):
scope on digital evidence and aiming to discredit forensic and
toxicology findings, as well as casting doubt on Angela's character
and suggesting she may have been suicidal. So remember he
was saying that, you know, she was despondent and she
was moody, and you know she was suicidal. And he
tried to get his daughter to create this deep fake

(49:54):
video of her saying that she was suicidal. You know,
it was just all kinds of crazy. So we're going
to be die being into the dope dentist. Let's not
call him by his name. It's the dope dentist who
tried to kill his beautiful wife, the mother of his
six children.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Yeah, and so Joseph, we have less than a minute left,
but very quickly, what do you think of actual video
footage of someone, yeah, going into trial?

Speaker 3 (50:20):
How much of us? How high up is I think.

Speaker 4 (50:22):
That a defensivetorneyal ripped at the shreds. I had a flashback.
I'll try to make it quick. The sixth Sense where
the little girl was being poisoned by her mother, if
you remember that scene in that movie. But it didn't
spoil it for anybody. But you can't say definitively that
that is a poisonous agent going in there, and they'll
say that it had to be analyzed and that sort

(50:43):
of thing. But if it's allowed in court, I think
that that'll be very intriguing because the jury's going to
see it.

Speaker 5 (50:51):
Okay, we have a talk back, can we hear ty?

Speaker 16 (50:54):
Ladies?

Speaker 8 (50:54):
This is Jess.

Speaker 7 (50:55):
I'm from Pennsylvania and I actually attended the Sales Universe,
which is the school that BK attended and studied under
doctor Kathlin Ramsland, who we have come to find out
that he was obsessed with. And my question is you
mentioned that the BTK killer killed four family members during

(51:19):
his first kill. Do you think that BKA killed four
people during his first kill as some kind of weird
homage to BTK?

Speaker 5 (51:32):
Thanks, good question.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
Yeah, thank you so much for that talkback.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
It's really insightful and it's interesting because we have kind
of brought that up and there are a lot there
is a lot.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
Of connective tissue.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Stephanie Leidecker and I we had interviewed criminologist Scott Bond,
really brilliant guy, and we.

Speaker 3 (51:52):
Talked a lot about BTK. He's a serial killer.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
BTK stands for bind Porture Kill and it's a leg
that on his first outing he murdered a family of four.
The answers, that's right. It bought it exactly, and it's
a real anomaly because generally with it's just an anomaly
usually if it's your first one out. So maybe question mark.

(52:18):
I actually still wonder if BKA even knew exactly precisely
who was in the house and where they were and
what he was going. So I don't know is the answer,
but it's an interesting question. What do you guys think?

Speaker 5 (52:30):
I think, I listen, I'm not going to give him
any credit. I think comparing him to BTK at this
point is, you know, a compliment in some way for him, right,
not for us, obviously K with a monster, but for
him it's a compliment. Right, for him, it's a compliment.
I think he is a clumsy, bumbling fool who went
in there for one thing and one thing only, and

(52:52):
that was for one specific person, and he ran into
people along the way because he's such a fool and
clumsy and an idiot, and he this was this was
just a stumbling reaction.

Speaker 4 (53:05):
Can I say one thing about about the I think
it was that the family. I can't remember that o
Taro's de feo was Ambivau. Yeah, so Taro's did you
know that? In his allocution in btk's allocution. He actually
makes a statement in that allocution where he says, I

(53:27):
made mistakes in the first one and he's reliving this
in his mind. If no one's watched this, it's one
of the most chilling things. It's on YouTube. The full
allocution is and he gives very detailed and this is
several decades before he's still read living this, and he
actually missed in that allocution that portion of it that
he made mistakes along the way, that he would have

(53:49):
done things differently and not like taking a better path
in life, I mean like to perpetrate that crime. I
was fascinated about that. I don't know if there's there maybe, yeah,
it could be. And this is something that doctor Ramslan
aided BTK in writing his memoir.

Speaker 5 (54:11):
Right, And a lot of people say that, you know,
there's kind of this connective tissue between BTK and Bundy, right,
like I'm almost like a hodgepodge of characteristics. But at
this point I just feel like that's a compliment to
him in some weird, gross way, and it makes me ill.

Speaker 3 (54:30):
Yeah, it just makes me.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Well, listen, we really appreciate thank you calling in. And
actually we have another one guys, if you can give
us talk back five please.

Speaker 17 (54:38):
Great, Hey, y'all, I'll have the case and I would
love for you guys to cover. It was the first
one I ever truly remember. I was young, maybe twelve,
which were back to shape her her stalking and murder.
She was going my sister Sam and I will believe
it set stalking gloss in California. Thanks for event. I

(55:00):
had a great night.

Speaker 5 (55:02):
Oh I don't know this one.

Speaker 3 (55:04):
Thank you for that, Joseph Am.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
I right that you are quite familiar with the Rebecca
Schaeffer case.

Speaker 4 (55:09):
I wouldn't go that deep with it. And familiar with it. Yes,
lovely young actress living in an apartment complex out in
LA and this guy I think his last name's Bardow
had become obsessed with her and literally found and he
had Oh I know, I remember this now. He had

(55:30):
hired he had retained the services of a private investigator
to track her down, which the private investigator did and
provided the address her address. He was obsessed with or
showed up at the house and killed her, shot her,
shot her dead in Oh my god. And interesting little

(55:51):
side note with this case, you're familiar with Marsha Clark. Yeah,
prosecuted that case and he's really serving life you have
in penitentiary in California.

Speaker 5 (56:03):
Yeah, I wonder what the rules are for that, like
a price you said in private investigator just turned all
over all this info. But this was back in like
what nineteen eighty nine or something eighty nine.

Speaker 4 (56:12):
Yeah, and you know there's new rules for that, you know.
I don't know. I don't know about the governance of that.
But you know, if you retain them and ask them
to do this, they're going to do it. I don't
know if they say why, But listen, if.

Speaker 5 (56:25):
You're a private investigator, give us a call, let us know, like, yeah,
can you tell me? Can I just go into a
private investigator's office and say, give me all the information
you can on Joseph Scott Morgan, Like, I don't know.
I just think that's goof, that's kind of icky.

Speaker 4 (56:38):
You just sent a chill up my spahn.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Yeah, you don't do, not want body after you that,
But listen, Thank you very much for that talk back,
and we will absolutely cover that case because I'm reminded
in a really vague way, and it's an important one,
and I do think you're right that there are some
laws that were enacted because of him. So give us

(57:02):
a call if you have any other questions, particularly forensic
ones for our expert, Joseph Scott Morgan. I'm Courtney Armstrong
here with Body Moven. This is true Crime tonight and
we are now finally going to get to a case
about an Alabama man.

Speaker 5 (57:18):
Body. Can you lay out the basics please? Yeah. So,
this one's brought to us by Joseph an Alabama, Alabama,
Alabama man who's been connected to eighteen different homicides is
contributing to reshaping conceptions of what a serial killer may
look like in the twenty first century. This is really really,
really interesting, you guys. Damian McDaniel, he's twenty two, has

(57:40):
been charged with eighteen murders and thirty injuries over the
course of fourteen months, potentially making him Alabama's most prolific
known killer if he's convicted.

Speaker 17 (57:51):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (57:52):
Yeah right. So he's accused of two mass shootings in
Birmingham in twenty twenty four. One was at Trentson Lounge
in July of twenty twenty four and the other was
that Hush Lounge Hush Lounge in September. His trial date
has been set for April sixth, twenty twenty six, so
like what eight months or so, and we'll focus on

(58:13):
the trendsetter shooting the first one in July. He allegedly
served as the primary enforcer of violence and homicides for
Birmingham Area drug Traffic Organization, so he's not directly charged
in this federal drug conspiracy case that implicates its leaders.
So is he like a hlpman Joseph.

Speaker 4 (58:33):
Yeah, I think that it is. I was actually thinking
back to I don't know if you guys have heard
of the movie The Iceman is based Iceman, Yeah, it's
based on the true story of kok Klinsky and he
killed you know, he claims that he kills up to
two hundred people right died in prison, and he was
a mob enforcer. But you know, I got to tell

(58:54):
you guys, this this case, I'm very disappointed the media
in this case because this this case in particular, involves
an African American perpetrator and all of these victims, most
of them, to the best of my knowledge, are African
American and it just kind of it didn't get out

(59:16):
of the state of Alabama. The only way I found
out about it, I was at my work. I work
at Jacksonville State University as a college professor, and I
had a young reporter that called me from you know
one of the you know, one of the three letter networks. No,
not like CBSNBC. Hey, have you heard about this case?

(59:37):
We'd like to come interview you. How It's like, I
haven't heard of this And when she drops this number
on me, it could have knocked me over with a feather.
And you know the thing about it is, this is
this is the interesting thing. He had previously, as a
seventeen year old, been arrested and charged into a ten

(01:00:00):
murders and he was I think he received some kind
of sentence like for seventeen months or something, and they
suspended thirteen months of it. Cutting back on the street
and dig this before the mass shooting happens, he allegedly
walked in to a fire station in Birmingham and shot

(01:00:21):
two firefighters. Now listen, look, nobody should be shot, but firefighters.
You're going to walk in and you know what they
would do these guys. This is how just gut wretching
this thing is. These guys left the doors open to
the bay of the everybody drives by fire station. They
left the bay doors open so that the elderly people

(01:00:44):
could come by and get their sugar checked and their
blood pressure checking. These guys were just hanging out. You know,
these guys do nothing but clean and roll hoses and
do all this stuff. And then they go save people's
lives and you walk in, you shoot them. He kills
one seriously, injures the other. And after this, you know,
all hell breaks loose. Now there appears to be other

(01:01:06):
people that he is associated with in this case.

Speaker 5 (01:01:09):
Yeah, and the firefighters. It's mentioned that that that's where
the crime spree began and it was a murder for
hire for killing a firefighter. Jordan Melton is, so this
was somebody put a hit out on a fireman.

Speaker 4 (01:01:24):
Yeah, I don't. And that's why, like I'm going to
be glued. It's very interesting, glued to whatever comes out
of this case to find out what the motivation is
for well, for all of these killings, but this thing
kind of set it off. When I was working in
New Orleans, we had a guy that's crazy name. He

(01:01:44):
went by the street name of Meatball, I remember this,
and he went around killing people and it was murder
for hire. Back during that period of time. But it's
this is why this is so interesting and tragic, I know,
but interesting just from an academic standpoint. You've got a
combination of a guide that is not just a mass

(01:02:07):
murderer allegedly, right, but also he has serialized this as well.
That's a very unique combination in the world of crimp science.

Speaker 5 (01:02:16):
I wonder if it's not like considered serial or they're
not talking about a serial killer because it is for hire,
it's not like a desire, or maybe it's both. Maybe
this guy does have a desire and the bonus is
he gets paid for it. Well, we don't know, right.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Well, listen, we're going to continue this topic after the
break as well as a debrief on everything we've been
talking about, and we will be hearing from you. Do
not forget to call us eighty eight three to one crime,
keep it here true crime tonight. We're talking true crime
all the time. So getting back into it, Joseph, you

(01:03:12):
had brought to our attention case about an Alabama man.
He's been connected to eighteen different homicides and is actually
contributing to reshaping conceptions of what a serial killer might
look like. His name is Damien McDaniel. He is twenty
two years old. So what do people need to know

(01:03:34):
about this case?

Speaker 4 (01:03:35):
Joseph, I think the most profound thing is that the
reputation that Birmingham has gotten as being this uber violent place.
And yeah, I mean there's a level of violence there,
but just imagine, over that fourteen month period, you've got
one individual along with some of his associates that actually

(01:03:55):
account for a statistics if you're taking US statistics class,
this would be identified as a statistically significant number that
are laid at his feet right now, and that's blown
these numbers through the roof for that particular year, you know,
and just taking on the scope of that is amazing.

(01:04:16):
And the fact that you've got a medium size to
major city. Everybody he's heard of Birmingham in the US,
and the national media hasn't taken up on this or
picked up on it, because you look that the media
can be a driver for many things, and one of
the unfortunate drivers that they become is a driver of fear.

(01:04:37):
And that's what's really tragic about it. And I'm partial,
I love Birmingham, thinks a cool place, but you know,
you have this guy that's running around, he's killed one firefighter.
He actually shot another guy that this is before the
trendsetter line lounge, shooting a guy that was a UPS

(01:04:58):
driver that was checking out or that was clocking out.
Can you imagine you're clocking out of or and some
guys shoots you, And yeah, maybe it is financially motivated,
but you do have you do have a perpetrator here
who has the mindset that life doesn't have a lot
of value to it.

Speaker 5 (01:05:16):
Well, and his victims weren't all contract killings, Like he
killed his ex girlfriend Mia Nicholson and that was like
a personal thing. So like he's got like this mixture
of contract killings and personal motives right now. I don't
know if you actually kill her or shoot here. I'm
not sure, So please forgive me if I misspoken those victims.

Speaker 4 (01:05:37):
No, I think. Can I just address this idea of
going to the club and shooting this is not like
he's going to a club and walking into a crowd
on the dance floor and shooting one specific person. No,
this guy's lighting this place up. You imagined how terrifying
that would be. And you know one of the clubs

(01:05:58):
is illegally operated. It's you know, kind of a dance
hall gathering place. They don't have a liquor license. The
other club that he shot up, which also had multiple victims,
and you don't people always think about the people that
have died, And while that is tragic, it certainly is.
You've got a lot of people that have sus saint

(01:06:19):
serious injuries, injuries they're going to change the course of
their entire lives. You might have people that are in
wheelchairs as a result of this, right and the fact
that it hasn't gotten the notoriety that others might. And
it's going to be interesting to see how the prosecutor's
office puts this case together, how they kind of frame it,
and maybe what kind of psychology are we dealing with here.

Speaker 5 (01:06:42):
Wow, he's only twenty two, that's it for so. First
of all, he's an African American male, which is different,
right than a serial killer when you know, think of
a profile that's.

Speaker 3 (01:06:53):
Given statistically, it's veryistically.

Speaker 5 (01:06:55):
Right, it's very different. And he's only he's very young.
He is very young to be this prolific, right, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:07:03):
Very young. And I'm not saying that there haven't been
young serial killers, ye of course, sure, but you know,
he's on the young end of the scale and to
get to the point where you can devalue life. I
think probably to that point at that young age, and
that you're kind of numb to it. I think it's
another fascinating aspect to this. It certainly begs study, I think,

(01:07:27):
on a great degree, because you have to begin to
try to understand what drives somebody like this, particularly with
so many people laid laded his feet, literally laded his
feet at this point in time.

Speaker 5 (01:07:41):
Wow, Well, I mean we're going to be I kind
of want to follow this one moving forward, if that's okay,
like with everybody listening. I think it's really interesting. It's
an anomaly. I think it's something that we should be
talking about. Keep it right here on True Crime Tonight,
where we're talking true crime all the time. I'm body
moving and I'm here with with Courtney Armstrong and just
Scott Morgan, and we were just talking about this Alabama

(01:08:03):
serial killer. But now we're going to kind of switch
a little bit and go to some talkback Roulette. We've
been enjoying talkback Roulett quite a bit. Go ahead, and
let's let's let's hear a talkback.

Speaker 16 (01:08:12):
Hi, my name's Joanna. I live in North Carolina, and
those first compliments to Katie's studios. I've watched or listened
to the Whole Pie tamess her series and the Idaho
Massacre series, and I just have learned so much and
appreciate your professionalism and your thoroughness in every aspect of

(01:08:33):
both of these cases. I just wanted to make a
quick comment that I think giving Brian Coberger their moniker
a BK actually gives him more notoriety. And that's just
my opinion. I'm like, all of a sudden, he has
like a nickname that'll stick, that'll almost in some ways
make him more famous. That's the only comment I have

(01:08:53):
other than doing a great job and thank you for
all that you do for those of us in the
public who want to know more. Thank you guys, so nice.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
Yeah, thank you very much. This is Courtney. I'm so
I'm so happy you learned something from the podcast. And also,
I know we said talk back, yes, but this was
a voicemail. So as we said, you can call eighty
to a three to one prime anytime it's convenient to
you if you happen to be listening to us on
the podcast and have a question, Cal and you are

(01:09:25):
on the show, and I really hear what you said
about giving him a nickname. We have batt this around
a bunch of times. We also do use the full
name of this killer, Brian Kolberger, in order for people
to understand what we're talking about, and then we try
and use BK. And that's because some of the victims'

(01:09:47):
family members had suggested. So it's a line we're tying
a toe. But we really appreciate your feedback.

Speaker 5 (01:09:55):
Definitely. I've been trying to refer to him as inmate
one six' three two one, four but you, know for
the purposes of the, show if somebody's just churning on the,
radio they're not going to know what we're talking. About
so it's, been it's. Been it's a really fine line to.
Walk AND i don't really know which you know way
to go, here BUT i like inmate one sixty three

(01:10:15):
two one Five.

Speaker 4 (01:10:17):
Amen from the amen corner. HERE i love. THAT i
think that's a great idea because you, know we it's
so easy for us And i'm guilty as charged. Here,
yeah that's our default position to use the, nickname and uh,
yeah wouldn't it be cool if we could just use
a numerical asignation for, HIM i think that'd be, beautiful.

Speaker 5 (01:10:38):
Removes his identity. Completely, unfortunately not everybody knows you, know the, story,
Right so for the show, purposes it's, hard but we
we would love to strip his identity from. Him but
on the positive, side, too B k isn't really so
much a. Nickname it sounds a little too close to B.
TK i completely get, it but it's just his. Initials

(01:10:59):
it's not LIKE A it's not like, this you, know
savvy nickname that he's been. Given, right it's just. Plant it's,
bland it's, BORING BK F. Bk all, right that's ALL
i gotta. Say body say. That so do we want
to go to another? One? Yeah all, right let's do.
It can we get another talk?

Speaker 14 (01:11:18):
Back, hi, ladies this Is lori From colorado and thanks
for breaking things down for. Us i've finished up listening
to the update from the twenty fourth and one THING
i am wondering about WITH dk not saying anything is
outside of his psychopathy is if it's a some sort

(01:11:38):
of a power and control. Thing SO i know people
want to know this, information BUT i am not going
to give it to them BECAUSE i am in control
of the situation, still meaning like some. Degree so, anyway
just a, thought all, right, Thanks, yeah good.

Speaker 5 (01:11:54):
INSIGHT i THINK i, think you know a lot of
people think. That you, know it's it's clear to see
when Watching Brian coberger get dressed down By Olivia gonsalvus
right during the sentencing hearings her victim impact. Statement by the,
way if you haven't seen, it master class in. Takedown,
right it's.

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
Really the most powerful person SPEAKING i may have ever
seen in my. Life AND i know that sounds really,
hyperbolic BUT i absolutely mean. It what she did for
her sister was. Unbelievable, yes, SORRY i got sa know.

Speaker 5 (01:12:33):
IT i completely. Agree but you can See Brian coberger
kind of, squirming, right he's kind Of it's really one
of the only reactions THAT i noticed him, having other
than When maddie's stepfather was speaking and you, know talking
about just what a wonderful light in his life that
she Was Madison, mogan his, stepdaughter whom he loved dearly

(01:12:55):
and she loved him. Too But olivia took a different.
Approach you, know everybody had been talking, about you, know
how wonderful the victims, were But olivia's approach, was, No
i'm going to be talking to, him you, know the, inmate,
right And i'm going to be telling him how meaningless he.
Is and it was just it was such a good.

(01:13:17):
Takedown but my point in bringing all that up, Was,
yeah you can see how out of control he is
in that, moment and you can see his jaw clenching
and his eyes kind of, twittering and AND i think
he loves being in. CONTROL i think that will wear
off over. TIME i think that he's going to be
forgotten and people aren't going to be talking about, him
and he's going to want to speak let it. Be, so,

(01:13:40):
yeah we really appreciate that talk.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
Back and my answer to you is probably exactly what you, said,
Right Joseph Scott, morgan what's your?

Speaker 4 (01:13:49):
THOUGHTS i think that he wants to control the, conversation and,
hell he wants to do it on his. Terms that
didn't really understand the judges order relative to any kind
of contact or what the you know, what what's prohibited.
THERE i think my, biggest my biggest concern is that

(01:14:10):
there's going to be academics that are going to come
calling and that information is going to leach, out you,
know from their, papers and they'll do it under the
guise of being academically inclined and wanting to study this
guy for whatever benefit there is out. There and you
know that because he sees himself as an. ACADEMIC i

(01:14:30):
think it would surprise me one, bit y'all if he
if some institution allowed him to finish that. PhD, well we're.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
Going to find out, how you, know maybe sooner than.
Later and right now we Have gina on the. Line, Hello.

Speaker 9 (01:14:44):
Gina, Hi i'm calling from a small little town Called, Arcadia,
florida AND i just stumbled across you, Guys But i'm
going to listen to you guys.

Speaker 5 (01:14:53):
Forever.

Speaker 3 (01:14:53):
Now OH i love it a Great thank, you.

Speaker 9 (01:14:56):
Sir, Okay now to the, POINT i know you spoke
about What olivia said to be but he's a, psychopath right,
Right so did the insult that she said to, him
did they really do they affect? Him or does he
just have like a mental, Barrier like will he be
reading the court records and like cursing her for twenty
years or how does how did that really affect him

(01:15:16):
as a.

Speaker 5 (01:15:16):
Psychopath that's such a good, Question, Gina thank you so
much for the, Call, Gina, yes thank. You but, listen
last NIGHT i sat AND i Watched Brian. COBERGER i
zoomed in on him while he While olivia was dressing him.
Down olivia gonsalves the victim impact, statement AND i swear To,
god do. It it is. Incredible you can see his

(01:15:36):
jaw clenched and his. Eyes this is so, creepy you.
Guys his eyes are. Twittering IF i didn't know any,
BETTER i would think he was having a silent seizure
of some. Kind his eyes are twittering back and. Forth
and NOW i don't know what that medically means or
what that. Is but a beautiful. Woman olivia is. Gorgeous,
okay she is beautiful and. Smart EVERYTHING i Think Brian coberger.

(01:16:01):
Hates olivia is everything he, hates and for her to
dress him down that, WAY i think that overrides his
psychopathy AND i think he was. Affected that's just my.
OPINION i actually concur with.

Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
That AND i also even on first watch when it
was happening, LIVE i as well was focused on his
face and, noticed, listen this guy gave nothing during all
of the impact statements or the sentence. SING i felt
Like this was one moment of, something AND i Think
olivia did even through whatever mental whatever is doing in

(01:16:36):
his brain by mentioning stuff, that you, know are you
plucking your?

Speaker 5 (01:16:40):
Eyebrows?

Speaker 3 (01:16:41):
Now are you doing?

Speaker 5 (01:16:42):
It you, know just stuff that.

Speaker 3 (01:16:43):
Would really mocking. Him yeah, Here Joseph any thought On, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:16:50):
YEAH i mean she was literally you, know we've talked
about knives to not she was twisting the knife and m,
hmm that's WHAT i. Think.

Speaker 3 (01:16:56):
OH i love that she.

Speaker 4 (01:16:57):
KNEW i think that she consulted with. SOMEBODY i do.
TOO i, mean what to say to him to press
and let's not.

Speaker 5 (01:17:05):
SAY i mean she's she was brilliant and so credit
what credit is, due right? SHE i love that. Analogy
she twisted that, knife she gave him his. COMMENTS i
absolutely agree with, that AND i think he absolutely detests
her for. IT i absolutely. DO i think she got to.
HIM i think she's the only one that probably.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):
COULD i think what she S, yeah and that's SOMETHING
i REALLY i really hope he assuming it did penetrate
that it really does humiliate and her reckoning of you are,
nothing you are so?

Speaker 5 (01:17:38):
Basic, Right he's, Powerful, right it. Was, Joseph thank you
so much for joining. Us what do you have coming?
Up anything? Exciting?

Speaker 4 (01:17:46):
Oh, yeah, Yeah i've had had a couple of great opportunities.
Recently first, off we're still working on Body bags With
Katie studios to become the television show Body who exciting
and uh edition of that me and my Partner. Dave
we're cranking out three episodes per. Week we're platformed on
The iHeart as. Well please please check us Out, Tuesday

(01:18:08):
wednesdays And thursdays new episodes. Drop And i've recently been
on The Julian. DORY i saw that it was so
good podcast on. YouTube please check that out and Check
julian's got a lot of really, interesting interesting guests And
i'm privileged to be one of. Them and in addition to,
That i've got an invite coming up With Danny jones

(01:18:29):
podcast and very excited about, that and that's coming up
in a few.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
Weeks, joseph we are so flattered you are able to
come and make time with all of everything you are
doing to join using with.

Speaker 5 (01:18:41):
You.

Speaker 2 (01:18:41):
Guys i'm Tonight katie family is a. Fact so listen,
everyone stay, safe be, well and we are back tomorrow.

Speaker 5 (01:18:52):
Night good, night