Ghislaine Maxwell’s Tale: The Bizarre Fortune of Epstein and Talkback Tuesday

Ghislaine Maxwell claims Jeffrey Epstein amassed his $600 million fortune by recovering stolen wealth for billionaires. In a bid for clemency, she offers testimony that could shed new light on Epstein’s mysterious financial empire. Plus, answering your talkbacks on Bryan Kohberger, Maxwell, and more. Tune in for all the details.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here as always
with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven. It is Tuesday, September second, man,
does it feel like Monday?

Speaker 3 (00:34):
Though?

Speaker 2 (00:35):
A longest Monday ever, the double Monday, as I felt
as it felt today, It was like a roughree entry
back into the real world, record scratch. But so glad
to be with you guys tonight because we have a
stacked night of headlines and it is talked Back Tuesday,
So buckle up, everybody. We're so glad that we get

(00:55):
to be together tonight because look, Geelane Maxwell files. There's
been a very big dump. Thirty three plus thousand files
apparently have been released just before we went on air,
So this is happening in unfolding real time. There's been
some immediate chatter online and in the news, etc. So

(01:15):
we'll be breaking that down as at Unfolds. Also talk
Back Tuesday lots of Brian Coburger Idaho massacre questions, so
we've been stacking them and you know, hopefully we'll get
through all of them this evening, as well as a
smathering of many others. So welcome to the post Labor
Day stretch, everybody. We're off to a good start. If

(01:38):
we want to join the conversation, please do eight eight
eight three one crime. Hit us up on our socials
at True Crime Tonight Show on Instagram and TikTok, or
at True Crime Tonight on Facebook, or you could always
leave us a talkback since we're going to be getting
through a lot of great talkbacks tonight, Courtney, Where should
we begin?

Speaker 4 (01:57):
So this is feedback we got from a listener, and
we always listen. We call for it and say give
us your feedback, and sometimes you get exactly what you
ask for. So this is no, no, no, no. We're
going to listen with two years open, so oh no. Overall,
a great show, been listening since the beginning. Not a
fan of the Tuesday episodes though some some listener commentary

(02:21):
is smart, but a lot of it is really nonsense,
and I find myself saying, quote google it because it's
not a great use of time.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
I also don't think the.

Speaker 4 (02:31):
Tuesday shows do the host justice because there's too much
quote I don't know and I don't remember when when
I know, they're all extremely intelligent, show up to the
other evening super prepared. I think Tuesdays would be stronger
without the roulette format. Cherry picks smart topics and calls
and give the host a little time to preps.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
I think that's all. So this is pretty good feedback.
I mean critical, fair, but that's fair feedback. You know,
there is some truth to it. The sponsor nation having
sometimes just a live caller or immediate like the satisfaction
of calling, leaving a talkback and being on the show
right away is fun. But that is totally fair because

(03:11):
there is no prep time.

Speaker 5 (03:13):
Right and you know, as somebody like I've been interested
in true crying for many, many, many, many many years,
and I kind of pride myself on trying to keep
up to date with almost everything that I can like
that I can come end. Also, I like, really like
the talkback Roulette because I feel like it's a challenge,
Like I'm on the edge of my seat, like what's next,
What's do I Am I going to know it now,
but I understand where she's where she's coming from, because

(03:35):
there are cases that you know, maybe the three of
us aren't familiar with, so there are going to be
things that were like, well, we don't know, but if
we were prepared, then we could you know, be prepared.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Right.

Speaker 4 (03:45):
But also, yeah, we have taken some of the talkbacks
and then turn them into segments we have you know,
we hear about someone lets us know about a story,
and then we go ahead and do the research.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
That's a good point. I'm strong chances are we should
have given this feedback to ourselves last night.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
It's yeah, Tuesday, on Tuesday, it's stuff on Tuesday.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
But I think that it's something we can implement next week.

Speaker 5 (04:10):
And the other thing though too, though, like you know,
it's important for it's been It's been kind of hard
for me too. I always assume everybody knows like what
I know, right, like, and that's not necessarily true.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Right.

Speaker 5 (04:21):
We have listeners that are you know, beginning entry into
true crime, into the knowledge sphere. We have listeners that
are advanced in their knowledge, so we kind of have
to talk to everyone, right And so it's while some
might think, oh, that's a silly question. Others are like, oh,
I didn't. I never knew that, so we kind of everybody.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
No, it's a broad knowledge base. It's it's hard. Well,
let's just make it an effort. We will do better
on the I don't knows. Yeah, that's fair to do it.
I think that's what I hear. That's the critique that
I think is really fair. I think, yeah, so game on.
I wish it was next week. But we are letting
a little reulect in. No, no, and thank you.

Speaker 5 (04:58):
For the constructive feed totally. Yeah, like it's but it's
constructive but also critical. You know, critical thinking is not
a bad thing. I think collectively we do far too
A little bit. I'll speak for myself, but it's a
good I think everybody should learn about logical fallacies. Like,
that's the homework tonight, Go learn about logical fallacies, Michael.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
Thinking, Wait, logic logical fallacy too.

Speaker 5 (05:20):
I love them, like red herrings or slippery slopes at
things like that.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Interesting. They're like that you used in argument.

Speaker 4 (05:29):
I used to teach just in a rhetoric class and said,
miss accordium, you know, to the sad heart.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
It's like you're giving me you're giving me anyway, biases
and things like that.

Speaker 5 (05:41):
Yeah, and those are all really important when you're talking
about true crime because there's a lot of logical fallacies
in critical thinking when you're talking about true crime, because
everybody has like a bias of something, so about these things. Yeah, anyway,
By the.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Way, to that end, we don't know everything, period, the
exclamation point underscore, nor can we ever propose that we do.
And therefore we're just very honest when we don't know something.
So maybe just sort of curating some of the callers
in advance and preparation for talk back Tuesdays is a
really good point. So let's try that for suore next week,

(06:17):
and we'll do the best of our abilities to to
not say I don't know tonight. Should we put money
on that? Yes? Yes, come on, let's do it. Whoever
loses has to sing on air no getting me ready?
Get me ready?

Speaker 3 (06:37):
Right?

Speaker 2 (06:37):
Well, Gilane Maxwell, I mean, honestly, let's start there. We
have big, huge developments.

Speaker 5 (06:44):
Do I have no idea what's going on? So I'm
learning real time what's going to Stephanie? Like, I really
don't know?

Speaker 2 (06:49):
Court, do you want to give us like the summation
and then we can kind of unpack from there. But
it's pretty pressure. Yeah, it's happening now. We've been literally
just updating.

Speaker 4 (06:57):
As we were going on to the Air and House
Oversight Committee, they did a massive document dump. It was
about thirty three thousand pages, a covered court documents, a
covered body, police cam footage, and victim interviews as well.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
So and much has been made of this.

Speaker 4 (07:16):
However, the if we're going to play sides, which people
are in politics as always two party country largely, so
the Republicans did that said, oh my god, thirty three
thousand pages, and there's been a lot of controversy over
the transparency and accessibility, and many people are noting that

(07:38):
this dump is a almost impossible to go through and
be up to ninety seven percent redundant.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
So it looks like kind.

Speaker 4 (07:47):
Of a huge gesture, but it's stuff that already has
been out there.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
And just to offer some context on that, so remember
Congress has been out of session. Day one is back
today post the Labor Day weekend, and first order of business,
per you know, Speaker of the House Republican Mike Johnson,
was they had victims Epstein's victims six of them, I believe,
for up to two hours went and spoke before Congress

(08:14):
and answered questions, and you know, look, they're mad. They
feel as though they weren't given any information about Elaine Maxwell,
who in their minds is a predator who they have
testified against what she has done, you know, she's a
co conspirator in a sex trafficking case, and that she
has now been moved to this low security life. They're

(08:37):
really upset. So, you know, it seems like the takeaway
at least, you know, Speaker of the House was saying
that it was pretty people. There were tears behind closed doors,
there was some outrage, and he himself really noted that
it's been you know, a process for these victims that's
been really delayed, and that's very difficult. So that's on

(09:00):
the one hand, and then on the other hand, I
think he's also saying, but we can't really probably give
more information or that this you know, dump that was
given by the Department of Justice tonight is largely repetitive.
It's maybe one percent of what exists in these files.

(09:20):
An example that I heard was there's about one gigabytes
worth of information and that there's probably three hundred gigabytes
of information, so we're looking at like, I don't know
one percent or something was the number that was used.
So and that the names of some of these let's
call them pedophiles, if what they're being accused of is
true in these documents, if there are in fact very

(09:44):
big names, world leaders, et cetera, that those names also
have been redacted, and you know, it's all sort of
being couched under this idea of listen, we want to
protect the victims. We have to be very mindful of
all of these files and videos and you know whatever
her camera footage and surveillance tape because we want to
protect the victims. So that's one side of it, which

(10:06):
I do understand. And on the other side of it,
it's like, but yet the victims, six of them speaking
on behalf of many of them, were there today saying
quite the opposite, that they are desperate for the transparency
and why is there so much mass confusion about releasing
information about sex criminals.

Speaker 5 (10:27):
This is your crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, I am Body
Movin and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and STEPHANIELI Jaker,
and we're right in the middle of talking about Gilaine Maxwell,
and we're going to take some talkbacks. Let's go to
one right now.

Speaker 6 (10:38):
Hi, my name is David Gray.

Speaker 7 (10:39):
Am.

Speaker 6 (10:39):
I am from Mete Arizona, and I have a comment
about the Epstein and the woman that's in the cushy jail. Yeah,
the only way she got there, and this is basically
a comment. Basically the way she got there. There's tape
somewhere and that's how she's getting what she's getting. There's

(11:01):
proof somewhere that they higher ups, whether it's President Flinton
or Trump or somebody, there's pictures and video of them
in that place. That's why she's getting what she's getting. Thanks,
love your show. It's amazing. I have a nice night.

Speaker 8 (11:21):
Ah.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
What a great talk back. And I'm going to just
jump in and say, you know, as scary as it
is to say this, even out loud, that has to
be so right. You know, we saw when there was
a raid, for example, on Epstein's home and they were
leaving this you know island with these boxes and boxes
of tapes and videos, and it seemed as though there

(11:43):
were cameras that were being you know, they were hidden
all throughout this island. That was what was being said
at that time as facts, Right, So where are all
those videotapes? And again, you know, keeping this not political,
let's assume everybody's involved. Honestly, my imagination may be way
worse than the truth. Also, and I think I'm not

(12:06):
alone in this. It's almost as though by not giving
us information it's making you feel imagination go even worse.
So it can't possibly be any worse than what I'm
thinking at this point. And it must be that big
and that bad, because anyone that gets close to it
is like, uh, actually I changed my vote. And definitely

(12:29):
this she has never been this should never be released.
And even just the most recent you know, Gilain Maxwell
interview done by President Trump's personal attorney where she's looking
essentially to get a pardon and therefore saying that she
didn't see any nefarious behavior from whether it was Clinton
or anybody. I mean, how was that satisfying? I mean,

(12:51):
that's like the most that's like the least satisfying part
of all of this. Right, we want to get the
stuff from the files. We want to hear the grand
jury testimony. If we can't hear that, we want to
understand what the FBI had on both of them that
allowed all of these indictments to happen, like they were
indicted on many many things. He was brought up and

(13:12):
convicted right two times. Remember this happened in West Palm Beach.
She's trying to get out right now, Gilaye Maxwell on
the technicality because in the West Palm Beach case with
Epstein there was that provision that his co conspirators should
never be tried. That's very different than saying I was
not involved and nothing the fairy has happened. That's a technicality, right,

(13:34):
So it is a technicality, right. I think people are
going to get all spun up again, and by tomorrow
it's going to be real because I'm hearing the chatter
on all sides and I'm so confused and scared by it.

Speaker 5 (13:47):
Or is it possible, Stephanie that you know it isn't
as bad as we thought. And because we had been
filling in the gaps for the last however many years
it's been, you know, we've made it this in our mind,
that is this big thing, but it's really right, just
a couple guys.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
Guy, I don't know why are we protecting those couple guys.
Let's go there let's just go on that. Let's go okay,
let's go there. Let's assume it's actually being incredibly overblown.
But maybe none of the big things. Maybe we're protecting
the victims. I don't know the victims are saying, take
my name out. That's fine. But the circumstance they can
redact the victims' names right now, they're redacting the men's

(14:22):
names or these perpetrator's names. By the way, why are
we redacting a perpetrator who's taken advantage of potentially a
twelve year old girl, up to a thousand of them
over the course of decades. So, yeah, if it's just
three schmageggy's from zero land who are on some list
that now has been blown into world leaders, maybe it's

(14:43):
not world leaders. Maybe it's just these dumb dums from
Nowhere's land.

Speaker 5 (14:47):
And then why aren't they throwing them Why are throwing
that out there?

Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah? Why are we protecting them? And if they are
important people of stature in the world, why are we
protecting them? Right because they're just like everybody else. Listen, guys,

(15:13):
it's Talkback Tuesday, so we get to hear from you.
Please join the Conversation Live eight eight eight three one crime.
In fact, we have a very special caller on the
line right now, Cynthia. Welcome to the show live.

Speaker 9 (15:28):
Hi there, how is everybody tonight?

Speaker 2 (15:30):
We're so good. It's so good to hear from you live. Finally, Cynthia, we.

Speaker 5 (15:34):
Wonder We love your talkbacks. You always leave us such
great ones. Thank you for calling us live.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
So Cynthia, tell us everything. Yeah, give us all the scoob.

Speaker 9 (15:42):
What's your question actually not so much a question, but
just in regards to the Idaho massacre and just with
school starting back up, and that's our thing with ensuring
like students are aware their surroundings and you know, being proactive,
especially for students who are coming like from smaller communities
to larger schools and that sort of thing on both

(16:04):
sides of the border. You know, you have to be
really careful these days. It's not like it was in then.
I'll say, in the nineties when I went to college myself,
you know, where I could just you know, like I
wouldn't worry about what I was doing or where I
was going, and you know, like I always felt safe.
So like, just be cognizance. Of course, you don't like
you shouldn't expect to be attacked or anything like that.

(16:24):
But actually I wanted to touch on the University of
bran Koberg go into it. Sure the fact that he
was a student, like he was a doctorate student, I
think right at pH D called them a little bit
of different things across the border here, and so he
was a student, but he was also a teaching assistant
as part of his program. And then we had meant

(16:47):
I had mentioned, like did the university have responsibility to
the students that he was in contact.

Speaker 10 (16:54):
With through program?

Speaker 9 (16:56):
Yeah, you know, and whether they had a duty of responsibilities,
like they kind of like put the onus on the
students to to like react to like the behaviors of him,
rather than dealing with him. Right, we're walking them to
the we're walking them to their cars and da da
da da da, instead of addressing the issue with him,

(17:17):
Like I mean, really, if they observe those behaviors, you
would think that and if they believe that his behaviors
were escalating and they were danger to other students, they
could have suspended him or expelled them from the program.
But they chose to continue to let him be until
like after after he murdered these four students at another university, right,

(17:39):
you know, And I think the parents of those students
that died really should uh uh take notice of what
happened at that university and possibly bring a lawsuit. I'm
not like litigious in a normal circumstance, but given what
has come out, like they were to me they were negligent,

(18:03):
you know, like they could have prevented this from occurring.
I believe that they potentially could have prevented what happened
on November twenty second from happening. And you know, they
played a role in uh him being where he was
and escalating to the point where he he crossed the
border into another state and murdered these four students and

(18:26):
then you know, like went on his little merry way
to go home for Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever. And
I just think that universities need to take more responsibility
when they observe actions, or universities or colleges need to
take more proactive action.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Totally.

Speaker 4 (18:43):
Cynthia, you make good so many great, great, great points.

Speaker 5 (18:46):
Thank you to respond to, because yeah, you said a lot,
and there's all everything that you said is like appropriate
and like one point, yeah, but thank you so much
for calling.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
Had two things. One thing will also in terms of
safety on the campuses, I was reminded of this today.
Everybody should not be wearing their earbuds and headphones and
walking around with their you know, eyes in the sky
looking up, you know, Tier one safety. Take on our headsets, right,
put away your phone so that you are a alert

(19:21):
little safety measure. And yeah, the school also did not
necessarily properly even tell the students at WSU that they
were under lockdown or in changer, right.

Speaker 5 (19:34):
And we learned through the document dump from both the
Idaho State Police, well actually from the Edo State Police
specifically that you know, they Brian Coberger had received a
bunch of complaints from students and fellow teacher assistants and
you know, fellow faculty and whatnot, so much so that
they created like a class to give you everybody. And
Brian Colberger just kind of sat there looking up at

(19:56):
the ceiling with his hands twiddling, like he didn't even
know the class was because of him. And then we
just recently, you guys, we haven't talked about this yet,
but we just recently got another photo dump and a
large six and ninety nine pictures, okay, and a majority
of them are of Brian Coberger's apartment.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
And one of.

Speaker 5 (20:17):
Those photos is what I believe to be one of
his first letters from WSU, like discipline, and it was
stated December seventh, so you know, it was like an
action plan for his behavior modification, like you know step one.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Can you be how triggering that was for him too?

Speaker 5 (20:35):
Because December so it was yeah, yeah, or no, I'm sorry,
not December November, November seventh, My bad, I'm losing my mind.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
And by the way, yeah, but yeah, we were triggering.
We were talking about these photos earlier as well, and
you know, I know we should do a real episode
unpack of it because they are harrowing, they're fascinating and
deserve it's proper unpack. But again, the inside of his apartment,
it looks like exactly what you would imagine a psychopath's

(21:08):
apartment to look like. And then if we did that
in a movie, you would think it was exaggerated.

Speaker 5 (21:12):
Right, I agree, Everything is very messy behind closed doors,
like the cabinets, Like if you if it had a
door and you could shut the door onto it, like
a closet or a cabinet, it was like a kind
of a disaster. But everything on the open was very
presented right like and almost empty like. It was almost
like his mask.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah right, it's very strange.

Speaker 4 (21:35):
One other point to touch on, Cynthia was that ultimately
Brian Colberger was terminated from WSU, right, so that that
is what ultimately happened. But your point is really fair
about yep, why is everyone else accommodating to this man
who is creepy? So we want to know what you think.

(21:56):
Eight and eighty three to one crime. We're doing talkback Tuesday.
All topics are on the table so and we actually
are going to go to one now, kay, ladies.

Speaker 11 (22:09):
I was listening to Bodybags and Joseph said that Zanna's
mother had a drug issue and Ann Taylor defended her,
and then Anne Taylor went and defended the monster that
killed this woman's daughter. I just found that to be

(22:32):
interesting by Yeah.

Speaker 5 (22:34):
So it wasn't Ann Taylor. It was her office, the
public defender's office. It wasn't actually like Anne Taylor herself,
She wasn't the representing attorney. It just came the letter
came from her office. So yeah, that was a big
thing early on. Do you guys remember when all this happened,
and there was this about pubb about it, but it
wasn't actually Ann Taylor.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Right, that was ultimately discounted, but much was made of
it at the time.

Speaker 5 (23:00):
A lot was made about it, and and Xana's mom
herself made a big deal about it, but it wasn't
actually Ann Taylor.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Should make a big deal about it.

Speaker 4 (23:08):
She just yeah, yeah, and she also Ann Taylor withdrew
her counsel as well.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Right, right, so yeah, thank you for the talk back.
What do we have.

Speaker 10 (23:18):
Next, high ladies, the Sinsley calling from Canada. Now that
they have the CA's DNA, when they run it through codis,
do they run it against any crime that's ever been committed?
Or do they have to run the DNA crime by crime,

(23:40):
so if they thought maybe he killed someone somewhere else,
they'd have to do the DNA just for that crime.
Or is there a way to search a DNA for
or any DNA profile for all the crimes that have
ever been committed? Anyways, looking forward to hearing you guys
tat tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Bye. That's such a great question, and by the way,
it's a loaded one because you know, it would seem
as though we will get to a place at some
point forensically where you can just load up some DNA
into the system and it does a cross reference to
every every crime ever committed. You know, that seems like

(24:20):
we should be heading in that direction, But I do
think I don't think that's as simple as how it works.
And typically it's case by case and you have to
have cause, et cetera, and it's a fairly laborious process. Courtney,
is that accurate?

Speaker 4 (24:34):
I think I'm actually I'm trying to refresh so I
don't give wrong facts. This is something I do want
to come back to, and actually after the break, I'm
gonna dust it off a little bit. But yeah, I
don't know that it's as easy as just testing for
any and all crimes.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
But boy, is that a great idea.

Speaker 4 (24:50):
And Stephanie, as you mentioned, probably I'm not too far
off reality.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
And we should have to go ahead. We should talk
to authoram authoram ordinary company that is really doing this
really forward thinking dynamic testing, specifically in Idaho as well.
So they're doing such incredible work. Maybe we can sort
of have them on the show and talk to them

(25:16):
a little bit about their fire.

Speaker 5 (25:17):
So I don't know, if they're going to run like
Brian Coberger's DNA, because here's the thing, they did run
it through Cotis, there was no hit, right, So if
his DNA was in the system because he had DNA
from another crime, there would be a hit. It just
they wouldn't have a name, right, So I know that

(25:38):
they I know that they already did the KTIS thing
and his DNA was not in the system. Again, it
would have showed up like, oh, there was an unsolved
murder in Pennsylvania, let's say, right, but we just don't
know who it is. And now they know that there
was a murder in Pennsylvania, now this murder in Moscow, Idaho,
and the same person is responsible for both. So we

(25:58):
do know that the CODIS stuff already happened. Whether they take,
you know, the buckle swab that they took from him
when he was arrested and run it through Cotis a
second time, I don't think so. But we do know
that they did investigate other cases. Remember his parents had
to testify at that grand jury hearing. Exactly or the

(26:20):
disappearance of that that woman in twenty twenty one, I
think it was, and there was no finding that he
had anything to do with it, but they were investigating
other things. So I'm sure that that's happening, But I
just don't know that running it through Cotis again would
happen because they already.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
Did it, right, No, nice to make sense. Yeah, we
have another talkback right now.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
When you guys talked about b K and the way
he labeled contacts in his phone, it really reminded me
of Randy Kraft, the Scorecard Killer. I'm not sure if
you guys are familiar with this case, but I think
that you should look into it. I think it could
be another serial killer that may have taken inspiration from
Thank you, guys, have a good night.

Speaker 5 (27:04):
The Scorecard Killer. So this happened in Orange County, where
I'm from.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, I was gonna say, this one's like right in
your old bodackyard.

Speaker 4 (27:11):
You're not literally just talking about this minutes before the
show started.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, I wasnight.

Speaker 4 (27:17):
No, you have stepped out, Stephanie. No, that's that's good mind,
that's kind of weird.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
I'm gonna freaking out right now. I'm not gonna lie.

Speaker 5 (27:26):
So, yeah, Randy Kraft, he was the Scorecard Killer and
he was active in southern California. In the seventies into
the early eighties, and he was convicted for killing sixteen men.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Why would m hm? And he he did.

Speaker 5 (27:42):
He was very prolific and very rarely talked about, like
very rarely talked about. But the thing that was interesting
about him was he kept like a scorecard and he.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
He had like.

Speaker 5 (27:54):
A list of things, and they were things like, you know,
maybe locations of maybe where bodies were, and checkmarks.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
It was like a to do list, almost like a scorecard.

Speaker 5 (28:04):
Very but we should talk about it some day because
it's very very interesting.

Speaker 4 (28:08):
We should cover it. I've never heard and now I've
heard of it twice.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, well, did you know stuff?

Speaker 5 (28:14):
He was kind of mixed in with other killers at
the time, like the freeway killer. Did you guys ever
heard about the freeway killer? M okay, Well, he was
kind of mixed in with all of those and those
were like more high profile, even though Randy Craft was
more prolific.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Very interesting.

Speaker 5 (28:30):
The media plays a lot of a role into it
because Randy Craft was killing gay men, right, and therefore.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
It wasn't getting the same amount of kay exactly exactly.
We should talk about it. It's very dive on to that, right,
because I remember listen, you've talked about this a few times,
and Corey, I don't remember this happening before the show. Yes,
I stepped out, But that's pretty weird. That is so
odd serendipitous.

Speaker 5 (28:52):
He would keep notes like marine head like and they
don't know if that's like a location, or if that's
like a description of one of his victims, or he
had like golden sales as another one like, he just
had like little notes.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
But when they like, course, I'd have to research it again.

Speaker 5 (29:09):
It's been a hot minute since I've talked about it,
but or since I've thought about it, except for just.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
Like twenty five minutes ago. But it is very interesting.
It is very interesting. But thank you for that talkback.
That's very cool.

Speaker 5 (29:22):
I don't know, I just I feel like, you know,
the investigators think they were like coded references to his
victims because they matched some of the things matched his victims.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, sixteen men, and they think there's more.

Speaker 4 (29:34):
Actually, well in the quick Google as many as up
to fifty one.

Speaker 5 (29:39):
Yes, well, because there were so many active serial killers
at the time. Again, this was a different time technology.
We didn't have cameras, we didn't have cell phones, we
didn't you know. So people were getting away with stuff
a lot easier than they are today. Right, So his
other killers got like mixed in with him, so they
don't know the accurate amount because I guess, And we're

(30:00):
so many. The freeway killer was going out at the time.
We could talk about that too, and.

Speaker 4 (30:03):
A lot in California, it seems, yeah, all at once. Yeah, wow, Oh,
dial those ring cameras up.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
And yes it is talk Back Tuesday and we get
to hear from you. So join us eight eight eight
three one crime. Leave us a talk back on the
iHeartRadio app. It's free, or you could always hit us
up on our socials. So we're going to go to
a DM. Is that what's happening right now? Oh? Yeah, goodness.

Speaker 5 (30:31):
We got a DM from Ruth and it says, hi, ladies.
I've been a fan of your show since its inception,
and I loved every minute of it. I love that
you cover a variety of crime stories and you do
it with such heart, and I love when Joseph Scott
Morgan is on. He gives such great insight into the
forensics piece of the puzzle. I don't have a question
for you, but I've been wondering if Brian Coberger went

(30:54):
the criminology degree to keep himself under the radar.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 5 (30:59):
If he will that much of a planner, but it
wouldn't surprise me. I've been fascinated with crimes since the
Manson murders. I was recently cleaning up my garage and
it came across the newspaper clippings of that crime. I
hope I know Exalma Rose, but that is when this
all started for me. Thank you again for all you do,
keep us informed. Keep up the great work. Wow, Ruth, thank.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
You, Ruthanks so interesting love for Joseph.

Speaker 5 (31:22):
The heart of her question is, I've been wondering if
Brian Koberger went for the criminology degree to keep himself
under the radar.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
Well, I think it's a.

Speaker 5 (31:31):
Combination, don't you, Guys kind of think it's a combination
of keeping him under the radar and learning like about
how crimes are processed and how to get into the
mind of a criminal and those kinds of things, like
almost like kind of like self validating himself a little bit.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Or maybe he was scratching an itch, right, So here's
somebody who has psychotic tendencies. We know he was somewhat
aware of his psychotic tendencies, given he's done so much
research about psychotic tendencies. He seemed to be slightly obsessed
with that. He also seemed to be slightly obsessed with
law enforcement in his earlier days. Now here he goes

(32:10):
to studying criminology. Is it possible that there was just
this like itch to be around violence or to better
understand violence, and rather than committing it, he would study it. Yeah. Yeah,
I think just thinking about it, I think.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
It's likely a confluence of all of those things, you know,
because this was, like you mentioned Ruth. Was he a
big of a planner because that would have been years
And also one thing, Stephanie, when you were mentioning and
you know, scratching an itch quote Scott Bond, who I
bring up a large amount on the show, a criminologist
We interviewed. He is wonderful and knowledgeable and fabulous and

(32:51):
we should have him on the show. But he mentioned
that also that scratching of it itch is very real
and it's also part of why many serial killers kind
of revere one another and look back and study because
it's it's like a titillating thing, or it's sort of.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
Like, oh, wow, I'm not that alone in the world
because there's another psychopath who's doing really dastardly things. I
must not be that crazy.

Speaker 5 (33:17):
Right, And it's not like you're confiding in your your
closest friends, like, hey, I'm a serial killer. So the
only thing, the closest thing you have are other serial killers, right,
And they don't talk to one another. This is all
very personal and you know inward so yeah, they relate.
But you know, in looking at the photos of Brian
Coberger's apartment, and again we are going to cover this
more in depth, but I.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Will tell you a lot of the books.

Speaker 5 (33:39):
That are in his apartment are related to justice, which
is interesting and you know, being prosecuted when you're innocent,
things like that. Almost like I don't know, I just
feel like there's a lot here or a lot in
those photos that we have to like unpack and talk about.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
We talk about those for seventeen years. Honestly, seriously, they
were more fascinating. I wish I hadn't seen some of
the photos to bodycam footage that came out about them,
but his hours after I ate.

Speaker 5 (34:10):
It up Stephanie Katie Studios could do a podcast called
Brian Coberger's Apartment and I could talk about it for
seventy years.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Just a week ago. Yeah, listen, it is going to
be never ending. It's called The Idaho Massacre Season three
out now, but it is bananas. Honestly, It's there is
something very eerie because it actually says a lot in
its simplicity how he lived his days. He also clearly
had no human interaction or connection Like this was like

(34:38):
there's no chochke.

Speaker 5 (34:40):
It just didn't feel like there was a feeling period presented.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
He's very presented.

Speaker 8 (34:46):
Right.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
The towels on.

Speaker 4 (34:48):
I was gonna say, anyone with an earshot body has
showed me every angle possible of this pile.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Of white towels on white towels about him. How's about?
But it is something we should we should go through
the and so we're not like being too teazy. It
was a very simple photograph of like, you know, a
stack of towels, but they were folded in such a
weird on a stool in front of an empty way. Yeah,
it was like everything's kind of empty, and then the

(35:16):
cupboards are it's so weird, like here, are my towels?
Take them. It's very This is what a normal person does.
They have towels on a stool, is you know, and
there's no other d n I on these towels. Like
he's the guy with a toothbrush like scrubbing the bathroom floor.

Speaker 4 (35:36):
And the bottom of his this okay, this photo did
get me super intrigued.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
The bottom of his vacuum is nothing I have ever seen.
It is like it was clicked clean by a dog, has.

Speaker 5 (35:49):
Stuff in it.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
I know, we were talking about this is such a weird. Okay,
we will go too far the rabbit hole, but welcome
to it. It did seem like the vacuum was not used,
meaning it didn't look like it had anything stuck to
the vacuum at the bottom like it always does nothing. Yeah,
but the canister clearly was stuffed.

Speaker 5 (36:08):
And Stephanie, the vacuum lines in the carpet, yeah he was,
I mean, is clearly vacuuming all the time. But the
vacuum little you know, when you flip the vacuum over
and you've got the like little spinny wheel with the brushes, Yeah, spotless.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
And all the hair and dust if your house, well,
here was my theory, okay, so and we'll put a
pin in this, I promise. But my theory on that was,
this guy is just up at night, walking in circles
vacuuming because he got complaints about that. Remember, his neighbors
were like, this guy's forever vacuuming at two am. So
he actually never had anybody over because he didn't have
any friends. He never probably had his shoes on in

(36:45):
his house, so there was no dirt or dust or pollen,
god knows. He didn't have an animal, thank god. Instead
he was just vacuuming. So if you're just going over
a clean carpet again and again and again and again,
it doesn't really probably muck up your vacuum so badly,
but the carpet remnants would fill up your candist. And
that's what it looks like.

Speaker 5 (37:04):
It looks like carpet remnants in the because it's active.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
This is investigative reporting in front of my It is
like Tuesday Roulette. Listen on the.

Speaker 4 (37:16):
Spot, give us a call eight at eight three one crime,
What is doing in your vacuum? And we actually have
another d M And I think, body, oh this one
do I have one?

Speaker 8 (37:30):
It?

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Well, it's to all of us.

Speaker 4 (37:32):
Oh, okay, it's it's it's from Michelle. It's regarding Brian Coberger.
What is your collective opinion on the authority? Saying he
isn't Papa Rogers seems my favorite list to me.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Oh, this one, this body, you gotta go. This was
when this was happening though real time. I just want
you to know, welcome to the inside world. When Idaho
was like on the tip of everybody's tongue, it was
on the news, we were all sick over it. And
then Joseph was really need deep in this to everybody
was talking about this Facebook guy, right, he had an

(38:07):
account Papa Rogers. And I want to say, Boddy, you
were like first to this. You were like the first
person I spoke to about this. I should say, see yeah,
And I feel like it was very insider and exciting
at the time because and I let you take it
from here.

Speaker 5 (38:21):
Yeah, he wasn't Papa Rogers. So and I literally never
thought it was so Papa Rogers was an account on
Facebook that had seemed to have inside knowledge into the
crime scene. And he very much reminded me of somebody
that I know very well named John Green. And you
know when we were investigating Luca John was asking questions

(38:44):
about the scene and whatnot.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Very similar to Papa Rogers. Papa Rogers was.

Speaker 5 (38:49):
A female in like Indiana, and they had made Facebook
posts about some like community college and like Carmel, Indiana
a while ago and uh saying like when are you
going to release the funding? And you know whatnot why
would Brian Coberger be talking about some scandal at some
little community college. Well, anyway, I'm going to go off

(39:12):
on a tangent the pick the profile picture of Papa
Rogers did look like Brian Coberger. There's no question about it,
no question about it. But I have well it's kind
of like an AI photo that was created by this
other this lady, but it's completely unrelated. But the big
thing people thought was how did how did Papa Rogers
know there was a sheath left behind? That was the

(39:34):
big ticket item, and Harry Rogers was reporting on this
on Facebook essentially in a Facebook group.

Speaker 4 (39:41):
Hold on, can I guess yeah, this is a guest
to Okay, my guess is they inferred that because they
were saying that the victims were stabbed with some kind
of a knife, but also that they did not have
the weapon, correct, how would they know he armstrong?

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Well, the only way they know you're late for me,
So this is, Papa.

Speaker 5 (40:03):
The only way they know it's a fixed bladed weapon
in the police report, like the press release and whatnot,
is if they have a sheath. It's like, okay, imagine
somebody gets shot, right, imagine somebody shot and they come
upon the body. Then they do a press release, right,
you know, like a day later and they're like the
weapon us was a nine millimeter? Well, how do they
know that? They know that because the shell casings left behind.

(40:26):
So when they come out and they say, blah blah
blah a weapon, you know, something is left behind to
tell them that before an autopsy is done. And the
only thing that can it could be with the fixed
blade weapon is a sheath when they don't.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Have the weapon.

Speaker 5 (40:39):
Is this Rogers, it's rudimentary crimes, say knowledge like it's
and that's why when all this was happening, I'm like,
it's not, Papa, Rogers, Like, what are you talking about?
Joseph Scott Morgan and I talked about the sheath prior
to Brian Coberger being arrested on my podcast about something else. Yeah, anyway,

(41:00):
I remember that, Like, I'm not Frian Coberger.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Heard. I'm just saying he talked about that.

Speaker 5 (41:08):
She's like, you know what I mean, Like, it's not
a thing anyway, but it is interesting. It is the
profile picture though, is interesting because it does look just
like him, but it's like an AI creative photo, but
it is eerily similar.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
But yeah, no, it is not him. Interesting. She's a
girl who lives in Indiana.

Speaker 4 (41:25):
I did not know that it is fact. Okay, yeah,
well bring another talkback.

Speaker 12 (41:31):
I just heard on another YouTube video over the weekend
that someone had inferred that one of Brian Coberger's sisters
and his ex college professor might be collaborating on a book.
Oh that's Katherine Ramslin.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
Thanks La. That has been rumored. I've heard that as
well as a rumor unsubstantiated, but yeah, there have been
rumblings about that. We do know Catherine Ramslyn had a
relationship with a Coburger family, and that she had been
communicating with the family, you know, well after his arrest,

(42:10):
I believe, and leading up to frankly leading up to
him pleaing right, so that would track, it would seem
his you know, best delight is probably the idea of
having Catherine Ramslin, the woman he looked up to as
this you know, great mind in criminology, be able to

(42:32):
analyze him. We don't know which one of the sisters
that's been speculated about. We know one of them is
a you know, a really reputable therapist who lost her
job because of her association just to her brother. So
you know that might you know, track and be interesting.
You know, I think the sisters are you know, have
also been through it. So great question. We don't have

(42:53):
the We actually don't have the answer because that has
not been substantiated yet. I would buy it. Let me
tell you I'm not. I'm not shame to admit I would.
Literally I would buy it.

Speaker 5 (43:02):
I would probably buy it in hardcover and audiobook, like
just so I had like all my basis covered and
I would listen to it immediately.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
I'm not I'm not being so.

Speaker 5 (43:10):
For ial, like I like, judge me all you want
I want to know.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
I want to.

Speaker 5 (43:16):
Know about like the childhood. I want to know about
the teenage years. I want to know about you know,
was Brian Coburger really breaking into his friend's homes and
stealing like the mom's iPad and you know, things like
that because it goes to his history, and you know,
we know that there was the ideas that he was

(43:37):
stealing from the women that he stole, it was interested in,
brought up robbery and like sexual burglary, and you know,
blah blah, all these things.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
I want to know. I do. I'm not ashamed of
doing that. I can't help, but I want to know.

Speaker 4 (43:51):
That would be very, very surprising to me, given how
really silent Coburger's family, particularly sisters, have been, that.

Speaker 5 (44:01):
It would be surprising to me too. Honestly, it would be.
But again, I would buy it.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
You would not be alone. I would not be alone,
Coburger man. There's lots of talkbacks on this one. Can
I like to switch gears for one second? Just about
another thing that's been weighing on me? Is it real
or not real? TMZ has reported that Pamela Anderson and
Liam Neeson we're a fake relationship. Is that possible? What

(44:28):
don't break my heart? Heavy on my heart? So it's
like a PR stunt. That's what TMZ has reported. And
I'm wondering if any of our listeners could jump in
and join the convo, if they have an opinion or
feedback on this. That's the most rattled.

Speaker 13 (44:44):
I'm upset about that. To Stephanie Show.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
Unrattled that way, I would have fallen for it so deeply.
They thought they were either I'm kind of.

Speaker 14 (44:54):
They have to be, they are, They totally are.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Oh, Sam, well, I'm Sam. Is that fact or is
that your opinion?

Speaker 14 (45:02):
It's my heavily informed opinion because they're so private and
they've been denying it even though for the last year.
Or Liam Neesen's like, oh, I'm in love with Pamela Anderson.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
Cute. They love each other so much. I will be
so upset if that is fake. It can't be. Not
my Pamela Anderson looks so in love with him, and
vice versa and vice versa. They're America's sweethearts. Again. We'll
get to the bottom of it and we be reporting back.
I promise breaking news or at least breaking in my

(45:37):
head and my heart. This is true crime tonight. We're
talking true crime all the time. Stay with us. By
the way, we're being featured as Apple Podcasts Time Show

(46:01):
of the Month. Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 5 (46:03):
I'm this just in so how congratulations, So yay everybody
and for honor.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
I feel like this is an audience generated show, so
anybody listening you are a part of this. So high
fives to all of us. Group hug to the True
Crime Tonight community. That yeah, Courtney's been like very vigilant
during the break as I was dancing. You did have
your hand up though. Still, but she's trying to get

(46:32):
to the bottom of this, of this Liam Niesen and
Pam Anderson crime. If in fact this was a fraud,
We're just all going to agree that it's impossible. So
I have to it's impossible. It's impossible. It seems so different,
it's crazy. Why bout it? You disagree?

Speaker 5 (46:52):
No, it's just like Courtney's like digging in and I'm like,
I don't even care.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
We're just all so different, you know. I just I was, yeah, like,
oh my god, I gotta figure this out, you know, like,
and I don't know, it's just funny. I'm just like, what, okay, whatever,
Well I did that. I will say I love how
they present at the bare minimum, whether it was fact
or fiction or true love or just a pr stunt,

(47:20):
a hook line and sinker. Yeah, I'm going true love.

Speaker 4 (47:22):
It was too sweet for words, and I'm going to
believe in love for both of them.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
Yep here here, Okay, I'm agreeing with you. And again
it's talk back Tuesday. We're going a little Roulette style.
So let's go to the next one.

Speaker 11 (47:38):
Girls, I'm watching this Netflix documentary Unknown Number.

Speaker 5 (47:44):
Okay, stop and hold it, stop the talk back. We
can't have any spoilers. Wait spoiler wait and we were
are all these talking?

Speaker 2 (47:52):
I remember if there are spoilers, this is.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
Or we stop and you.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
Just stop it. We have to stop it. Wait, we
were us talk it. This is why our community we
are in each other's heads, mind meling, just talking about this.
So Unknown Number is the documentary that's being referenced right there.
It's on Netflix. It's supposed to be off. The chasing's
so good. I'm going to watch it tonight, even though

(48:19):
I know I shouldn't and I should go straight to
bed because the day tomorrow is very long. But you
know what, I've been hearing the greatest stuff. Maybe we
should do that for the next after tomorrow. Yes, because
tomorrow obviously we're doing our our true crime and chill,
don't f with Cat's edition. But then we'll have to
have our next assignment.

Speaker 15 (48:40):
This is a tough one.

Speaker 13 (48:44):
And I'm into it, and I think it should be
our next true crime till because it is really really good,
So I will see it at that.

Speaker 4 (48:51):
Give a shout out to my girlfriend from high school, Diana,
who actually Diana, Uh, listen to quite a bit of
a piked in massacre, but she was losing her brains
on Facebook about this documentary and that's yeah, so everyone.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Is I have been listen.

Speaker 5 (49:08):
I watched it this weekend, Indian and I watched it,
and I have been dying to talk to you guys
about it, but I can't because Stephanie and Taha, you
guys haven't finished it.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Okay. I don't know why I didn't get the note
this weekend because I just watched like my Bravo rerun somehow.
I watched Next Jen NYC and it's entirety the entire
season started.

Speaker 15 (49:31):
I feel like starting documentaries and I started.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
Suddenly I'm watching my Bravo again. What is wrong with me?
I've watched things on repeat. I watched The Valley Reunion twice.
What does that say about me? It says so much
like predicted. It means you like predicted that predicted.

Speaker 5 (49:50):
That's why the way my brain calms down, That's why
Courtney and I watched The West Wing so many times
because we know what's going to happen.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
It's predictable. It's comforting. That's why you do it. That's
so unpredictable.

Speaker 13 (50:01):
Speaking of docs, body, do you want to remind everyone
what's going to be happening tomorrow?

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Do I want to remind everybody?

Speaker 3 (50:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (50:07):
Yes, because you know, my favorite subject is talking about
myself taha. And I'm saying that with a big, huge
I roll because you know how much I hate it.

Speaker 2 (50:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (50:16):
So tomorrow's True Crime and Chill Isn't Don't Have with Cats,
and so we're going to be doing a deep dive
into that and talking about the documentary, and then I'm
going to give you guys some you know, behind the
scenes stuff, maybe even what it's like to be in
a documentary, and then like things that they left out
that are exclusive but you know only John Green and

(50:37):
I know. So yeah, tune in tomorrow for that.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
That's actually going to be so exciting.

Speaker 4 (50:42):
When you mentioned what it's like to be in one,
because we you know, to be switched, like there's two
chairs involved, right, right, right, We.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Asked the questions typically, Yeah, it's very different on the
other side, it is your I'm sure.

Speaker 5 (50:57):
Well I've never been on the other side of the camera,
you know, so I yeah, I don't know what it's
like on your end, but I can tell you what
it's like on mine, and it is not fun.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
It is a lot of work. We I'll save it
for tomorrow. Yeah, okay, fair enough.

Speaker 4 (51:13):
Ps, we got a clear we got a spoiler clear alert.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
So oh, let's play that.

Speaker 4 (51:19):
I'm in Sam, thank you. So yeah, let's let's finish
up that talk back.

Speaker 11 (51:23):
Girls. I'm watching this Netflix documentary called Unknown Number The
High School Catfish. You may have heard about it, but
it's pretty crazy. I'm only like twenty minutes in, but wild,
so it's funny.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
To pass it along. I love it all and all
of you.

Speaker 11 (51:45):
But Stephanie, you make me laugh so much, so I
just wanted to tell you that.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Fine, it makes us all laugh, they all. That's how
I experienced love is through heck to laugh with. I
was raised by boys, right, that's how we like share.
Love is through a good heckle. I like being the
brunch of a joke. God knows, uh at least that's

(52:11):
the story I'm telling myself because I'm the brunt of
a lot of them.

Speaker 5 (52:15):
I can't believe she only watched twenty minutes and called us, girl,
I need you to call us back and let it no, wait,
save it for, save.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
It for at least we're just going to wait a week. Now,
we have a whole week well.

Speaker 5 (52:28):
To call us yeah, because I don't want to spoil it,
like I want to know her reaction though, because I'm
sure she's finished it by now. But oh my, I
literally I have been I have. I have watched the
most demented things on the planet. Okay me body, I've
watched terrible things, and this documentary I was like this
whole time, my jaw like I just my hands were

(52:51):
over my mouth.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
I was like, what, Yeah, are you kidding me? Like,
I cannot believe it. You have got to watch it.
It's incredible. Okay, So that's a pretty first of all,
why didn't we get this review of Son of Sam.
Here's the thing? Sometimes, you know, sometimes sometimes it's a flop,
can be a slow gear, right, Like you know documentaries,

(53:12):
sometimes you know you're following, you're following it, and it's
like sometimes a little it could be a little slow,
whereas it sounds like this one's action packed. I can't wait.

Speaker 5 (53:24):
I edd to my seat the whole time, and the
bones it's only now in half.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
An hour and a half.

Speaker 4 (53:33):
Okay, I'll be so curious, because I would I will
not say anything aside from the fact that I am
aware of the case and I'm quite familiar with the case.
So I'll be curious what my uh reaction will be
having that knowledge versus not.

Speaker 5 (53:48):
I think you're going to be very surprised at the reaction. Okay,
people in the documentary. I think you will.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Okay, yeah, because I mean, I'm all in because this
case is bananas. How do I not know this case? Courtney,
I'm strong. You don't think I know it. I don't
think you do. I don't think you do either.

Speaker 4 (54:08):
Otherwise, otherwise we would have produced something about.

Speaker 2 (54:15):
We'd be on season three, the one that got away.
Curses Netflix, you did it without us. Let's go to
another talk back.

Speaker 16 (54:31):
Good morning ladies, highly again from Australia. Sorry for all
the voice messages. I just want to say how much
it'd be great if you could do one on the mushroom.
Lady in Victoria. It was so well done on body
bags and I think listeners would be really interesting to

(54:56):
hear about it once again. Think you get love you guys.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
We love you number one. Aren't we doing that? Did we?

Speaker 3 (55:03):
Am?

Speaker 2 (55:03):
I having a brain freeze here? We are doing we
are doing that.

Speaker 15 (55:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 13 (55:09):
Next Sunday with Joseph. So once again everyone's reading our
minds or held the.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
Books like he has. Somehow Joseph is cooking the talk
to Talk in direct line to Australia. Good day. It's awesome.
By the way. He was so good because he's been
covering the burning Man murder. There was this terrible we'll
talk about this tomorrow forever talking about it tomorrow, I guess.

(55:38):
But there was this tragedy at this event in burning
Man this weekend. Burning Man is this art festival that's
in the desert here in California. It's a thing if
you if you know, you know, I have not been,
basically because my worst nightmare is exactly what happened. It's
like seventy thousand artists, many of whom more like you know,

(56:00):
eating psychedelics and like dressing up, and there's fires and
flames and then there's a murder. Some guy goes dead
and now there's like no crime scene and you can't
get out of the desert because it's seventy thousand people
and it's like messy and wet and muddy and it's
a real mess. We're going to talk about that tomorrow also,

(56:22):
But Joseph's been covering that in many places throughout the day,
Fox News, et cetera. So I think he was on CNN.
So yeah, lots of coverage happening there. So shout out
to Joseph Scott Morgan, our favorite forensics expert. We will
absolutely be doing the mushroom case.

Speaker 17 (56:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
I feel like we've been talking about this one for
a little while. Why this is this a fever dream?

Speaker 4 (56:46):
No, we have.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
We've talked about it, but not like in depth.

Speaker 5 (56:49):
We've kind of done like, here's an update and here
you know, she's convicted and the husband is is okay
now and those kinds of things, but we haven't done
like a deep dive into it.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
I feel like we've also talked about it a lot
behind the scenes in preparation for Joseph to come true.
So maybe that's the fever dream. But Haley, we love
that tip. We are.

Speaker 4 (57:07):
It is in the process of being worked on right now,
and if you have any cases you want to bring
to our attention, give us a call. We're at eighty
eight three one Crime. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I am so
lucky to be here as always with body move in
and Stephanie Leidecker and it is talked back Tuesday, we
were doing an array of topics, all brought to us

(57:28):
by you, and let's go to the next one.

Speaker 18 (57:32):
Hey, True Crime. I listen to you at work every day,
so I just wanted to call in and talk about
Sarah Grace Patrick and I do have a hard time
when children murder their parents. There's something obviously deeper there, probably,

(57:56):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
Right, there has to be something.

Speaker 5 (58:00):
I mean, I don't I'm not certainly not going to
blame or you know, victim, blame anybody here, but there
has to be something there. Whether it's a misunderstanding from
her perspective or their perspective, I don't know. There's something
there has to be. You just don't kill your parents
for no reason.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Or something is happening in her life, yes, whether even
if it was unrelated maybe to her mother and her stepfather,
something big that happened to her, something traumatic, something, something something,
and it has caused this level of rage. I mean
the idea, which is kind of how it's being portrayed,
which by the way, is not so dissimilar to how

(58:37):
the Menandez brothers were portrayed back in the eighties. You know,
she's getting kind of painted with a brush of you know,
she's you know, hungry for attention. She's on social media
like she was, you know, craving social attention and reaching
out to crime shows. By the way, all those things
actually did happen too, and there is accuracy to that.

(58:57):
But I wonder possible that someone could be that vapid
and murder your parents. I'm inclined to assume this is
just an assumption that there must be a real deep
hole there that needs to get addressed. Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (59:15):
And as a reminder, Sarah Grace Patrick, who's been pretty
top of our head, she's a seventeen year old. She
has been charged with the murders of both her mother
and her stepfather. This happened in Georgia, and very sadly,
the bodies were found by Sarah Grace Patrick's six year

(59:35):
old sister. And so if indeed she did do what
she is charged with, and she set her sister up
to find them in bed. And yeah, well she remains
in jail. She's awaiting arraignment, and that'll be happening this
month actually, September twenty second, and we'll see she would

(59:59):
potentially be face sing life sentences without the possibility of parole.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Wow, you know, we did a thing, Courtney and I
were down a rabbit hole for a long time, A
really sad rabbit hole. I might add about children being
convicted for life without parole who are under the age
of eighteen. And boy, that was complicated stuff, because you know,
your brain's not developed. What's the exacerbating event that actually

(01:00:27):
would make something like murder seem even on the menu?
You know, for a rational person that's not dealing with
excessive mental illness, it's typically not on the menu. Right,
So that is Yeah, it's a touchy one. Yeah, I
definitely be following as closely.

Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
Yeah, and who are you on your worst day? And
should that define the rest of your life when you're
under an age? A lot of countries feel differently than
we do. It's a polarizing topic.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Courtney is giving the hands up in the air you
don't care. Good dance break everybody. So listen. Talkback Tuesday
continues and apparently there's a wide variety of some talkbacks,
so we're going to jam through them. If you want
to call us live, please do eight eight eight three
one crime or you can just keep the talkbacks coming. Okay,

(01:01:29):
Sam and Adam give us our next one.

Speaker 17 (01:01:32):
Hey, y'all from Bama. So the discussion that y'all were having.

Speaker 19 (01:01:37):
About roadblocks and what did we do as parents or
grandparents to prevent these things from happening to our kids
have a primary nine one one first responder. I was
just very open with.

Speaker 17 (01:01:51):
My kids and I talk to them about all these things.
So if I had a call that pertained to a child,
we're a teenager, I would go home and I would
talk to them about it. Whether it was an overdose
of teen from a teenager or a suicide attempt, I

(01:02:12):
would go home. I would talk to them about it.
I would let them know, like, this is the world
that we live in, and I don't want them to
be scared.

Speaker 6 (01:02:21):
Of the world.

Speaker 17 (01:02:22):
And that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm just
trying to make them aware so that they know that
they know what to look out for. And I think
that as parents, the best thing that we can do
is to make them aware so that way that they
can help protect themselves when we are not there to
protect them.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
You know what I'm saying, It's so true, what a
good public service announcement, because I think sometimes that's the debate, right,
you don't want to overload young adults with scary information.
You know, certainly we are in beehive a bit and
here scary things all the time. Do you do you
share that with young brains or you know, you're like,

(01:03:02):
oh no, no, I want them to stay kids, and
I don't want them to even know how scary the
world is. That's one side of it. Or you talk
about it, which I think is so smart, and it
just prepares you know, it doesn't make you scared. You
don't have to be afraid if you're prepared. It's, by
the way, exactly what we're doing even here. Every night
we're talking about very scary, dark things. Not because any

(01:03:26):
one of us collectively as a community or like into
really scary things. It's really just you know, all right, well,
if we're not talking about it, a body is shaking
your head right now. I guess there's an exception. There's
an exception scary things. Party of one top right here,

(01:03:47):
Party one. But I think I feel personally safer in
the world and more prepared in the world because we
talk about this stuff and you're not like living under
a rock, you know. So Yeah, especially as I get
kids going back to school post Labor Day. You know
what's that line, I think that's really good advice. I
think it's good advice too. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:04:08):
And also when we had our therapist on Jessica jess
knows best, jess knows best, she had given great advice
about speaking to children and like pick any topic, any
hard topic, and just really meeting them where they are
in terms of you know, as Stephanie said, you don't

(01:04:29):
want to kind of poison the well. But if you
start giving them information, kids will tend to peter out
and let you know, when they're done, they won't ask
that follow up question, and then when they're interested then
they will. But yeah, Stephanie from Alabama, that was really
well said and so important.

Speaker 5 (01:04:48):
Yes, thank you for the talk about This is true
crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time.
We're right in the middle of talk back Roulette. Let's
keep it moving, Adam and Sam, what do we got?

Speaker 16 (01:05:01):
Good morning ladies, it's Highly from Australia. Sorry about my
cranky voice. I just want to say how much I
love listening to you guys. I want to bring up
Gillai Maxwell again, how much this really hurts the movement
of child abuse in America, like the gymnasts, what they
went through, and as survivor of abuse from a coach,

(01:05:25):
this really brings back everything once again.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
Thank you for sharing everything I know again, and we're
so sorry for your personal experience there. And I guess
that's so triggering for so many. And I guess this
also sheds a light. And you bring up the NASA
case right with a gymnastics coach on the Olympics team
that was sexually abusing you know so many. Uh Maybus

(01:05:52):
are a straight up doctor. It was a total takedown
by an extraordinary group of young women and this guy
had been getting away with it for a really long time.
So again, I guess it goes back to the same
conversation we were just having in terms of getting a
little loud about some of this stuff and people sharing

(01:06:12):
their stories. A takes the power out of the scariness
of your story. Number one, because you are not alone,
despite how you know, every one of us has felt
back in a corner and alone at some point, and
you're not. And also, if you don't talk about it too,
you don't you're afraid to. The shame is so real,

(01:06:32):
and I think that's what's the Skilane Maxwell mess is.
I think it's triggering a lot of people on all sides,
and not just women, not just victims, or a lot
of men too. We're getting a lot of feedback from
men that are they're not having it and not feeling
like this is appropriate, whether you're are a Republican or

(01:06:54):
a Democrat. And again, I'm going to say it again,
I think it's one of the most profound cases of
our general and I think it is I think it's
going to continue to continue.

Speaker 4 (01:07:07):
So we actually have a little update on Gillian Maxwell
that we didn't talk about yet. M hm and body,
this kind of goes to how much we want to
believe it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
We'll decide.

Speaker 4 (01:07:18):
But you have correctly asked how did he make all
this money? And it's the big nebulous investing. Even though
you like anyway, what Gillian Maxwell claims is that Jeffrey
Ebstein built his mysterious fortune and that was by cracking
wealth for billionaires.

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
So that's what she said.

Speaker 4 (01:07:43):
And she said that this six hundred million dollar fortune
even though he didn't have a very.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Clear career history.

Speaker 4 (01:07:53):
She again he says that he was hunting down the
stolen money but not doing conventional investing. And she also
claimed that Epstein either worked with or for African warlords
during this time. What she saw a photo of them.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
I gotta tell you.

Speaker 15 (01:08:14):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Also in okay, body you look and sensed.

Speaker 4 (01:08:18):
She also said in the same interview that she has
she's double down of any knowing about anything nefarious, any
recruitment of underage girls.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
No, going so far as to claim that that photo
that we have all seen with our two eyeballs of
Prince Andrew and Virginia Guffrey is fake. But why would
she not say that? There's no reason for her to
claim any wrongdoing At this point, the person that she's
the co conspirator for is dead, whether he committed suicide

(01:08:53):
or was murdered. Let's be real. So yeah, she wants out.
She wants out, And back to the original caller from
earlier in the night, who had made a really good
point when he said there must be some goods. She
must have some goods, because you don't put a sex
trafficker into a low security prison with you know, financier

(01:09:15):
tax evasion criminals when there's actually real danger that could
come of her. She did very dangerous things. The victims
are all very outspoken saying that they would like answers
in transparency. Both sides of the Aisle Congress included saying
that yeah, this has been a delayed, unnecessary process for victims.
Transparency is transparent beyond words. We want to just have transparency.

(01:09:39):
No one's pointing a finger, We're does asking for transparency.
If there's nothing there, show us there period.

Speaker 5 (01:09:51):
Good.

Speaker 4 (01:09:52):
I gotta say, I think this is a whole and
this is based on nothing except for her lying past,
Gillian Maxwell's lying past. But I feel like this is
sort of the perfect look over there. So really it
wasn't investing, so there's not anything to look for but
his rich, powerful friends and my god, they were stolen

(01:10:16):
from and so Jeffrey Epstein and the quest to do
good was with African warlow lord.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
So it's such a dog. So his dog, the bounty
hunter four billionaires. Basically, he's gonna hunt down their unclaimed
funds and along the way, maybe sex traffic close to
a thousand women. So I read this.

Speaker 5 (01:10:37):
Article in National Geographic magazine like five years ago, and
it was all about how African warlords used the trafficking
of ivory to fund terrorism and sex trafficking.

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
That's very true. No, no, that's a fact.

Speaker 5 (01:10:52):
So when you said African warlords, I immediately went back
to that article. That's a fact, remembered that it funds trafficking.
So maybe there is something there.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
And let's just talk about trafficking for a second, because
I feel like that's a word that gets thrown out
quite a bit. You know, we did a documentary called
Murdered and Missing in Montana. You can catch it on Peacock.
It really focuses on Native American young girls who have
been basically gone missing from various reservations throughout the country,
which is an epidemic, I might add, But you know,

(01:11:24):
the takeaway from that is essentially, is it possible that
this young girls, whether on a Native American reservation or
on the streets of Detroit or on Super Bowl Sunday,
the largest trafficking day of the year in the world.
I might add in the world number one trafficking day.
So young girls are being pulled literally off the streets

(01:11:47):
and then they are they have any of their personal
identification taken, they have their hair changed, and they are
legitimately shipped with scary people to a different place that
they can not get home from because now they have
no money and no access to a telephone, and they
are forced to have sex with men and men and

(01:12:08):
men and men, and that continues, and they get passed
along throughout the world and nobody can find them and
there's no way to trace them because they're being, you know,
trafficked by very high profile people. Courtney, you know, not
to overstate, but you and I were pretty down a
path thinking that we had made a connection to maybe
the New Mexico resort or home that Epstein was kind

(01:12:32):
of Epstein had this resort in New Mexico, a mansion,
and it was sort of like his first location. This
is before the Island. Yes, he had West Palm Beach
as well. Yes, New York City on lockdown. This is
a man of many faces and many lives. But New
Mexico is a hotbed, and I felt like we were
creating a We were so close to linking some dots

(01:12:55):
to his new Mexico location for trafficking, and then we
just couldn't get it over the finish line. And then
I think we got spooked.

Speaker 5 (01:13:03):
Did you really, Oh yeah it was this was before
we met. I would have helped you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:08):
No, no, it wasn't about to help. It was scary. Yeah, yeah, no,
we can still listen. No, but it's still No, it's scary. Yeah,
it's very high profile people and very scary things happened
to me. And you know, imagine being a mom or
a family member who just wants your daughter back and

(01:13:31):
people are like, oh, she was trafficked, Like anyone has
any idea what that means. You know, they're just being
sexed out and they can't get home. And as it
means of survival, you have to just kind of allow
yourself to which could be Amy Bradley, right, we don't know.
This is one of the many theories about Amy Bradley,
who had gone missing from the cruise ship. So it's

(01:13:54):
really scary. So I say this simply to say one
other point. That's one side of it. Now, imagine what
I just described is actually being coerced and run by
the biggest global leaders of our time, that the decision
makers in our world, that the people are who are
adjusting what happens at our jobs, in our wallets, what

(01:14:15):
our politics are, what we can and cannot stand for.
If those people that we are voting for across the board,
and I'm saying when we're buying technology, when we're logging
onto you know, platforms, the people that are running the
show on all of these things from a world perspective
are also down to the bone with having young girls

(01:14:37):
being trafficked, and like, with that context, it just is maddening.
It can't be okay, No, I know, we all agree,
I can't be okay, right everybody in They're right, Mia,
everybody that so where we are.

Speaker 5 (01:14:53):
But I mean, you have everything, you have all this money,
you have everything, you have power? Why children? Why why
not like the beautiful bond or something exactly like you
can have.

Speaker 2 (01:15:05):
Any body you want. What is with the twelve year old?
I don't get it. That is bringing that? Yeah, So
like that's really and now that's being accepted potentially by
world leaders and maybe the you know, the inferences of course,
we don't know this. This is the chatter that there's
also videotape to support this. So people like Elaine Maxwell,

(01:15:26):
who's been brought up on federal charges for being the
groomer who was luring these young girls away from middle
schools and high schools in New York City and in
various West Palm Beach, we know that was fact that
she gets to, you know, get her way, and the
victims were not notified. It's kind of crazy making. So

(01:15:47):
I don't know what to make of it. I certainly
don't know the answer, other than I know it just
feels yucky deep inside my heart. And I don't know.
I think collectively we can all come up with an answer.
I don't know. We want to hear it. Eighty to
eighty three one crime. I know it's not an easy one.
I certainly don't have a leg to stand on in
this race. Other than I think it's it's clear why

(01:16:10):
we all want answers.

Speaker 5 (01:16:12):
You know how we talk about like the kids stories,
this is the one. This is my kid's story.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
Gives me the eck. Yeah, it just gives me the
ick and I don't like it. And listen talk back
Tuesday in full swing. So we're gonna make a change
for next Tuesday. Just we're gonna kind of think about

(01:16:38):
what are you know what we got from that DM
which was like, listen, we might not do it, so
Roulette light. Maybe we'll curate some of them into categories.
So yeah, let's try that. And again we want to
hear more feedback. So if there's something that isn't working
for you, paul Us, let us know. And anything that
is or cases you want us to follow, keep us

(01:17:00):
in the loop, keep those talkbacks coming. So which one
should we go to next? Gentlemen?

Speaker 20 (01:17:05):
Hi, this is Holly from Kentucky in reference to the
lady that asked if Marilyn Monroe's body had been moved.
There was a Netflix documentary a while back that put
forth a theory that she'd been put in an ambulance
died on the way. Oh my god, and they returned
and took her to the bungalow. I'm not sure if
it's true, but I think her psychiatrist attested to it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
That has been long rumored. So yeah again, and that is,
you know again back to this Roulette thing. We'll verify this.
But I saw the same thing and it was speculated.
Two things were speculated. One that she was legit removed
from the scene and taken in an ambulance and then
brought back and she was placed playing in a certain

(01:17:49):
way in the bed. There was a scene that was
set and you know, it was set up to look
as though she had odeed, or she had odeed and
died in the ambulance and therefore they were like, I
guess we'll just put her back and who knows or
that there was never an ambulance involved, that she was

(01:18:10):
in fact dead at the scene, but they kind of
replaced her body under this like blanket. You know, she
was naked when she was found and there was pills everywhere.
You know, again, this is one of those cases or
those crimes if it is a crime, which I feel
like it is, or it had to have been, well
just really never well really never know, right, It's like

(01:18:33):
we just don't know. It's like Bigfoot. Was she killed
or was she allowed or just left to die? That's
also some level of culpability. If you know somebody is
about to take their life or is on drugs or
had eaten many drugs, and you know, do you save them?

(01:18:54):
That's all kind of those are all the things that
kind of surround this case. Interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:18:59):
Yeah, I have to check out that doc as well.
So here's another DM. It's from Jennifer and she says, hello,
my true crime ladies plus in quotes and capitalized the
Joseph Scott Morgan.

Speaker 2 (01:19:13):
That's oh baby, I mean he's good. The love tonight,
Joseph Scott Morgan. This is like his fourth or so talk.
I'm listen, I'm a little offended. Okay, what about us?
You know what I mean? What about Taha? It's like
all you know what I mean? What about what about Sam?
Little love for Sam?

Speaker 15 (01:19:30):
A little brat.

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Speaker 15 (01:19:33):
We all love Joseph that we can't help him, I know.

Speaker 4 (01:19:36):
So Jennifer goes on that he is the best friends investigator.

Speaker 2 (01:19:40):
Sundays are my favorite.

Speaker 4 (01:19:41):
Okay, I'm really hoping you could look into a case
from my local area of Northeast Ohio.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
It's happened in twenty thirteen. Eliza Sherman was murdered while
outside of her divorce lawyer's office. Okay, I have wanted
to do this case for a long time, Jennifer and
I don't. Stephanie and body if you're that familiar. So again,
a woman.

Speaker 4 (01:20:05):
Murdered outside the divorce attorney's office. Okay, Then out of
the blue, the news reported they had finally made an
arrest and the police are claiming her own divorce lawyer
either killed her or had her killed. Basically, he wasn't
ready to take the case to trial. So that appears
to be the rationale that this lawyer like didn't do

(01:20:26):
his homework on time and decided murder is the answer.
There has to be more to it than that. But
I also want to cover this case, Jennifer, Yeah, I'm.

Speaker 15 (01:20:36):
I'm fascinated by this one. We're going to add that
to the list.

Speaker 13 (01:20:39):
We've got some good ones, thanks to everyone calling out
some topics we should cover, but let's do it.

Speaker 15 (01:20:44):
We're adding that for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
We're doing our big like new season kind of And
by season, I mean you know it's literally it's false fault.
That's the season of like, what are the things we
want to be working on in terms of cases for
this next season? So keep them cases coming out. There's
a few in my head that I would like some
answers on that we'll start digging in. I know we

(01:21:06):
each have a little handful of cases that we're we're
working on kind of behind the scenes to bring to you.
So anything happening in your backyard or god forbid, in
your backyard, I don't mean that, but in your neighborhood
or area, God forbid, I don't mean that either. You
know what I mean. If it's something that maybe we
don't have insight into, yeah, keep it coming because we'll

(01:21:27):
start digging.

Speaker 13 (01:21:28):
And also we're thinking around I was just gonna say quick,
around Halloween. We're talking about a whole week of Halloween
themed or something that ties in. Wouldn't that be good?
So all kinds of cases that tie in with Halloween
and is not Friday thirteen.

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):
Listen, I don't want to no scary clown cases. I'm
not kidding. Yeah, everybody, well, I think we could. It's
like Cilantro. Most people do not like it. A clown
is not.

Speaker 5 (01:21:58):
For I mean, so for real, I will not I
will not be here. I just can't handle it. I
just I cannot.

Speaker 2 (01:22:06):
You hate penny Wise. I know, I can't even think.
I can't even think about penny wise.

Speaker 15 (01:22:13):
Story Halloween.

Speaker 13 (01:22:15):
I was the Halloween costume as a clown and surprise
you that that's a clowns.

Speaker 2 (01:22:20):
Don't tell body honking their noses.

Speaker 5 (01:22:27):
I don't have a hard time talking about Johnny and
Gacy swear. I just he was a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:22:32):
Yeah, if you don't know john Wayne Gacy, he's addressed
up as a clown. He was a clown, was actual
his job. But so let alone. Can you imagine you
hire a clown in the clown who comes as a
serial killer. Yes, I can't imagine that. Actually, So yeah,
that's my start of the scariest movie ever. I'm not
a huge fee I guess I shouldn't say this because

(01:22:53):
I like sometimes a scary antique doll when the eyes
like the eyes closed.

Speaker 5 (01:23:00):
Dolls, dolls, Oh yeah, that's mine, you lay it down.

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
Yeah, that sometimes kind of gives me the creeps. But whatever,
I loved my dolls that did that, So I guess I'm.

Speaker 5 (01:23:12):
Kind of like being scared though. The dolls scare me
a little, and that's the kind of scared. I like
to be, like just a little scared, and I love it. So,
I like, I'm so excited for Halloween.

Speaker 15 (01:23:23):
I'm saying Halloween will be fun. We'll come up with
some fun one.

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):
So all right, cool, good, what do we got next?

Speaker 8 (01:23:28):
My ladies is Kim and Kentucky love the show. Although
I do not agree with Brian Coberger's complaints, I would
like to say there are many men and women in
the prison system due to mental health issues, and those
people should not be punished. They should be getting help

(01:23:50):
and the prison system shouldn't punish them the same.

Speaker 5 (01:23:54):
Yeah, And that's where and that's why I keep saying, like,
we got to feed these people like it, you know,
you just don't know, right, Like we got to take
care of them. It's our we have agreed as a
civilized society that this is the punishment. We all agree
on it. We got to feed them, We got to
make sure they're safe. And you know that's I agree
one hundred percent. Thank you for the talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
But with all due respect though he murdered four people
and if he missed lunch, he wasn't going to die.
I know, I agree. I miss lunch today because we
were all working, right, what it happens how many people
miss lunch. It's a slippery slope.

Speaker 4 (01:24:30):
You are not in custody, Stephanie, and so when you
I mean, I don't know, because then it is Listen,
I don't want this guy having some pampered life.

Speaker 2 (01:24:39):
No, I mean neither at all, But I do say
it again. Just it's a slippery slope because then you know,
we are what a nation of torture is. I don't know.
It's hard to get behind. We are the United States
of America.

Speaker 5 (01:24:53):
We're supposed to be like, you know, the beacon of
rights and human you know, ability to forgive me change
and you.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
Know, reciting I'm just saying it just makes me crazy,
specifically about him, I mean honestly.

Speaker 5 (01:25:07):
Know, but yet you do it to him. Then it
comes to the next time. Maybe it's the war on
childer rapist, you know, like and we know.

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
Very good people who are serving time that we are
good people that of course deserve their lunch. So I
hear it, point taken, I say, I stand correct.

Speaker 4 (01:25:27):
Well, listen, if you have anything else to correct us on,
probably me about my mispronunciation of everything, me too, give
us a call. We're at eight eight eight three one crime.
It is talked back Tuesday. But I have I have
an interesting thing about another prisoner, Luigi Mangione. Oh gosh,

(01:25:47):
and so he Lui Mangione. He is being held and
has not had trial for murdering the CEO of United
Healthcare on the street.

Speaker 2 (01:25:57):
Right, okay, with the builded gun.

Speaker 4 (01:25:59):
Right, that's right, put the printed gun okay. So he
and much has been said about his looks and his
conventionally attractive looks.

Speaker 2 (01:26:08):
How do you pronounce sheen? Sa? You did? I say
the word? That's what h e? I n Also for
probably a lot of tariffs coming up soon. Yeah, Sheen
is like a fast fabric, kind of fast fashion sheets,
that kind of stuff. Somehow, I think they sell everything.

(01:26:30):
I don't even know what.

Speaker 13 (01:26:31):
She's clothing, everything, but fast fashion. You can get it
really quickly, really cheap.

Speaker 8 (01:26:37):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:26:38):
Well, they in their newest one of their newest ad campaigns,
it looks like Luigi man Gione.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
Right, so I don't know. It can't be him. He
is behind bars? Is it ai?

Speaker 5 (01:26:50):
And what is doing with When you look at the
photos of the camp the campaign, he's like in this
like white shirt and he's like modeling. His eyes look
like Uncanny Valley a little bit, right, like they're very weird.

Speaker 2 (01:27:03):
It's a it's got to be a or is it
just a model who happens to resemble Luigi? And they
used him because Luigi is getting a lot.

Speaker 5 (01:27:13):
Of celebrity, and that's the reason I don't think it's
that is they've already taken it down.

Speaker 13 (01:27:18):
But either way, how gross did they exactly?

Speaker 14 (01:27:25):
I actually went to the shirt page.

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):
You did?

Speaker 10 (01:27:28):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
So Sam, Sam, say it loud, say it clear.

Speaker 14 (01:27:33):
So I think this is total photoshop. Like if you
look at the other photos, it is like that print
but for like different types of clothing. And some of
the comments stay back to like pepril. So I think
whoever uploaded this probably like very recently or something. This
is a lot older just today, right.

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):
Interesting? So what does that say though, Because regardless of
whether or not a AI or it's a professional model
who happens to resemble, you know, killer or accused killer
Luigi Mangione, what does it say that we're even wanting
a face of someone who's been accused of homicide in

(01:28:18):
the first degree, a federal offense. He's looking at potentially
death for a federal crime by shooting a man in
cold blood with a printed gun on the streets of
New York City outside the Hilton Hotel. What is that
saying that we're putting this guy even up to be
glorified I'll tell you what it says.

Speaker 5 (01:28:37):
It says we want to sell the shirt out and
guess what, it worked. They sold every single That's what
it says, Sam, did you buy the shirt?

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):
Sam? Did you buy it?

Speaker 7 (01:28:47):
Sam's wearing it right now, right now, card O, fair enough,
no judgment, it's gone.

Speaker 13 (01:28:59):
I think it's said and depressing, and it's a sad
sign with like what's next Sam, Sam Bundy for gap
or something like. It's just I don't know, I just
I don't think it's I think it's awful. But you know,
they're glorifying these people that really we shouldn't even be
talking so much about.

Speaker 15 (01:29:13):
But not on this show, of course.

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):
But let's talk about talking about it. That's another it's
a subject for a different day, talking about what we
should be talking about, because it does stress me out
a little bit that Luigia Mangion is being turned into
a you know, a high class beefcake supermodel, even if
it's just an AI generated version. But the fact that
his shirt sold out, this guy did commit a very

(01:29:37):
serious crime. And how do you prevent copycats from happening
if we're promoting and celebrating this type of behavior While Stephanie.

Speaker 5 (01:29:48):
I think you're in the head of the prosecution because
they are bringing that up and something that we're probably
going to be talking about tomorrow on the show. We're
going to be doing kind of a deep dive into
Luisi Mangeon and the present status of his case. There's
been some information that's come out about why they're doing
the death penalty federally, and it's been mentioned that they're

(01:30:08):
concerned about copycats, which.

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
You know, wow, that makes sense. They if they don't
really drop the charge, if they don't really come down
hard on this with a federal death sentence charge, then
is that giving a false message to the world that
you commit a crime like this and suddenly you're off
to the races and you're a sleb, right?

Speaker 4 (01:30:30):
And is it just the fact that if you're charged
federally then it can be a capital offense.

Speaker 2 (01:30:36):
I think that's New York doesn't have a death penalty,
that's the answer, okay, right, and then they're making special
circumstances and then federally okay, exaggerating circumstances. Right, it was
like an act of terrorism almost, right.

Speaker 5 (01:30:49):
That's what they're saying. That's what they're saying We're going
to talk about it tomorrow. We're going to do a whole, deep,
a lot to do tomorrow. We do know when tired,
I said, we've got to do this tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:30:59):
All I'm exhausted just thinking about tomorrow, but I'm so
excited to talk about tomorrow with everybody. So guys, great night.
Listen tomorrow. There's a lot to cover, so we're gonna
get at it bronto. We'll be back. We have Luigi
Mangio and don't forget the DNA and the Long Island
serial Killer.

Speaker 5 (01:31:18):
Yeah, and don't forget leave us talkbacks for the don't
f with Cat's True Crime and Chill section tomorrow. Like
I have all these questions in my inbox constantly. Now's
your chance, leave us a talkback.

Speaker 2 (01:31:29):
This is True Crime tonight. We will see you tomorrow.
Good night, everybody, We say back,