Halloweek Begins; Bryan Kohberger Witness List, Ellen Greenberg Forensics, and a Brush With Evil

It’s Scientific Sunday, and we're joined by forensic death investigator and host of the podcast Body Bags, Joseph Scott Morgan, to discuss Bryan Kohberger’s unsealed witness list, “experimental” wounds, Ellen Greenberg’s alleged suicide, the Delphi murders, and more. Joseph walks through how forensic investigators determine time of death at a crime scene and shares the case that has scared him the most in his career. Tune in for all the details!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. We hope you had a beautiful
weekend and we're so glad to be here and to
get to share space with you. Because it is Listen Sunday,
October twenty six, and you guessed it. We have a
stack knight of headlines and yes, it's also Scientific Sunday,

(00:40):
and we have forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, also the
host of the hit podcast body Bags with us as well,
because we have a lot of burning questions for you, Joseph,
so he's here to help us unpack some of your
talkbacks and also some of the latest headlines. Listen. We
talked about this briefly last week, but what would have

(01:01):
been the witness list if Brian Coberger, the Idaho student murderer,
had gone to trial has been unsealed and it's pretty
jaw dropping and has a lot of implications, and we're
going to discuss that and also the idea of what's
now being called air quotes hesitation marks, which apparently Kaylee Gonzalvez,

(01:24):
one of the victims, may have suffered. Have a lot
of questions about that, Joseph, And also some of the
talkbacks about Ellen Greenberg. I mean, we've seen this coverage
and her alleged suicide is getting so much discussion. Also,
a clay case very close to Joseph's heart, We've gotten
a lot of talkbacks about that as well. So we're

(01:45):
going to have to fast talk tonight because we do
have a lot to get through. Because we're also going
to hit up the crime lab. Let's not forget everybody
the crime lab. We're going to figure out what it
takes to actually get the time of death Correctbviously, Joseph
knows this better than anybody. And also just you know,
remember Halloween week kicks off, so very spooky week ahead everybody.

(02:09):
I hope you have your costumes. Joseph's cand of actually
give us some interesting fun or even considered unfun facts
about Halloween, including a little teas here the origin of
the term boo boo? Does that come from b o oh?
Widely used? You seeing it everywhere?

Speaker 3 (02:30):
Hang on now, I got to tell you, Jimmy calls
me her little booth thing every now and then, so.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
I've heard her the forensics. So is this the origin
story of you and your beloved wife who we love
here as well, or is this more Halloween specific? I
always find Halloween a little bit stressful. I love favorite,
I bet I bet you're real good at it. I
bet you are. And Courtney's come in with some stellar
costumes over the years that I've witnessed. Remember the Steward
I just.

Speaker 4 (02:54):
Had some black lipstick on.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yes, yes, she's bringing She's coming in hot h ot
for Halloween week. By the way, I forgot to mention,
I'm Stephanie Leidecker here, of course, with my favorite. I
keep saying mates. I even got a note about I
keep calling you guys my mates.

Speaker 4 (03:12):
That's a nod to our Australian friends.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yes, Courtney Armstrong, body movin and of course Joseph Scott
Morgan and Taha, Sam and Adam were with us as well. Yeah. Mates,
I don't know why I'm like making you guys pirates
or something. Maybe that's an Halloween but you guys are
my mates. So I'm so psyched to get to be
with you tonight. Did you guys have a good weekend?
First and foremost, yes, I did.

Speaker 5 (03:36):
It was way too short though, Like I love you guys,
but I'm kind of bummed.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
To see you so quickly tire time.

Speaker 6 (03:44):
Yes, I just came from a party, the most darling party,
where they did a pumpkin carving contest.

Speaker 7 (03:50):
Actually, yeah, I had to leave.

Speaker 6 (03:53):
I was not going to win, first of all, but
I left right before judging.

Speaker 7 (03:56):
But I made a witch's hat that I did.

Speaker 6 (03:59):
Someone had a little, tiny little chainsaw very powerful, and you.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
Are the jewel heist. This is tracking.

Speaker 4 (04:08):
Was onto something with the chainsaw to it.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
But yeah, well we're sorry we made you had to dip. Listen.
I was counting the seconds until I got to see
you guys. So I have enough love for you guys
to last us through the rest of the show. I
promise and listen. If you're having the Monday to come blues,
no sweat, pull up a chair. You are welcome here.
And also we want to hear from you eight at
ehe three one crime or hit us up on our

(04:33):
socials or keep the talkbacks coming. So body, where would
you like to begin? I assume this Brian Coberger update.

Speaker 5 (04:40):
Yeah, yeah, Look, there's been a lot of talk about this,
so I wanted to kind of talk about it. Brian
Coberger's you know, they're recently they're starting to unseal all
these documents, and one of the things that they've unsealed
recently was the witness lists, right, and everyone is kind
of oh my god, they were gonna, you know, call
the roommates as defense witnesses. They must know something. So
I kind of wanted to go over this because I

(05:02):
feel like it's important. These witness lists. They've been unsealed
since Brian Coberger. Of course, he's accepted this plea deal
and he got you know, four life sentences plus fifteen
and so he's going to be away for a very
long time for the slaying of four University of Idaho
students in Moscow, Idaho and November of twenty twenty two.

Speaker 4 (05:22):
I can't believe it's almost been three years.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
I'm believed.

Speaker 5 (05:25):
Oh my gosh, I just can't believe that the time
has just passed. So we learned that on this witness list.
You know, besides you know, mother and father and his
two sisters and you know, several friends from Pennsylvania. Looks
like Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk were on this witness
list as well as some of the other victims, friends
and whatnot. Again, Brian Coburger was convicted of murdering four

(05:46):
University of Idaho students in November of twenty two, and
he was sentenced to life in prison without parole in July,
so pretty recently. This plea deal spared everyone from a trial.
So one thing I wanted to talk about this. You know,
there were fifty three people on this on this witness list,
and you know it was rendered moot when he accepted

(06:09):
this plea deal. Obviously, nobody's going to have to testify now.
And I wanted to talk about it because people think
that because Dylan and Bethany were on this list, they
must know something.

Speaker 4 (06:19):
Was why would the defense call them?

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Right? We remember when that happened, when there was a
secret meeting that the defense attorneys, at least for Bethany,
she was living in Vegas, that's right, she was brought
in to speak with the defense attorneys and we were
really curious as to the why. I think I know
better now, but yeah, to your point, sorry to interrupt, right, No.

Speaker 4 (06:39):
Please, it's totally fine.

Speaker 5 (06:40):
So generally, you know, people who last seen the victims
alive will be called for the defense. And that's because
when they're up on the stand being you know, testifying
for the state, let's say, right, in most cases that
would happen, the state would call them and they would
be up on the stand. If the defense wants to
ask a specific question, they really can't unless the witness

(07:02):
opens the door so to speak, for those questions to
be asked. They can certainly be crossed, but you know,
you can't bring up completely irrelevant information that they didn't
testify about. So unless the witnesses makes some mistake and
like opens the door, or the state makes a stake
and opens that door, the defense doesn't have free rain
to ask them you know, willing only questions. So the

(07:23):
defense will call them as witnessless so that they can
ask them specific questions. So this is like really common
for people that seeing the witnesses last or I'm sorry,
the victims last. They can contradict events about relationships.

Speaker 4 (07:38):
Let's say, they.

Speaker 5 (07:40):
Can show inconsistencies in the timeline, introduce reasonable doubt by
presenting alternative explanations, and I don't think Ann Taylor would
have badgered them because it would have looked bad in
front of the jury to badger the surviving roommates. I
think she would have been asking really poignant questions and
trying to poke holes in the timeline and humanize her

(08:03):
her clients, right, that's what she would have done. She
wouldn't have wanted to make these poor surviving roommates cry
on the stand.

Speaker 6 (08:09):
I don't think she would have done that, but I
would have to think that that would also be a
good position then to say, oh.

Speaker 7 (08:17):
Are you sure who you saw was x feet tall?

Speaker 6 (08:20):
Are you sure that you know if we make believe
that there is a scar on coburger, did you see
that scar? Or just little bits and pieces to introduce
reasonable doubt that it could have been some other perpetrator
about that size, Yeah, because.

Speaker 4 (08:35):
Her job is to create reasonable doubt. Rights right away.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
There was plenty there. We saw the text exchange that
the girls had with each other frankly, while the murders
were either happening or had just happened before they fell
back to sleep, and they're really harrowing when you know
the context, they're extremely harrowing. The other side to that,
if you're a defense attorney, you could also take that
same text exchange and you didn't really know, you weren't

(09:02):
really scared. You know, you could sort of read them
two different ways. And my guess is they would have
probably tried to poke holes in what they thought they
saw versus what they actually saw. And now we know
that they saw the real thing.

Speaker 7 (09:17):
That's right. This is true crime. Tonight, we are on iHeartRadio.

Speaker 6 (09:20):
I'm Courtney here as always with Buddy Moven and Stephanie Leidecker.
Tonight is Scientific Sunday, so we are blessed to be
joined by forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and we are
talking about Brian Coberger, the student murderer of Idaho college students,
and new information that's coming up coming out body.

Speaker 7 (09:42):
What else do we need to know?

Speaker 5 (09:44):
So Olivia Gonsalvas, she is Kaylee's sister. Kaylee was one
of the victims of Brian Coberger, and she revealed in
this TikTok that prosecutors share twenty six images of Kaylee's wounds.
We talked a little bit about this on our show Thursday,
but we wanted to have this conversation because guess what
we have Joe if this great, you know, friended the
real investigator, right, so Olivia described She said that they

(10:09):
described these as experimental wounds, and from again, I'm a layman,
and for I tried my best, Joseph, hopefully I made
you proud. But in layman's terms, I understood experimental wounds
to be were, you know, injuries inflicted by an assailant
after death or during the killing, done not to kill,
but seemingly to test or explore. Do you know anything

(10:30):
about these experimental wounds?

Speaker 3 (10:33):
Not specifically, but if the phraseology here is very interesting
because they're referring to and as you stated, body, and
rightly so, it's you know that these were to test, explore,
or experiment with the victim's body. That implies post mortem status,
which is, you know, as if this couldn't be more chilling,

(10:55):
I think the big question I would have to do
that see, how can delicately put this that seems very
like a very leisurely activity in a very frenetic moment
If you're going to be experimenting at that point in time,
I don't know if something has been lost in translation.

(11:16):
I think one of the things that really came to
mind were these actually post mortem or this falls over
into something that I could see this killer do given
what we know about him. And I love this word,
by the way, it's the word menacing and this idea
that it's almost a tortuous event, where if you're doing

(11:38):
this in the anti mortem or even perry mortem state,
which means in the throes of death, is this subject
taking the tip of the knife and pressing it in
just enough, over and over again? And do they have
true evidence of that? Of course, you can verify that
at autopsy, because even with the most superficial wounds, you'll

(11:58):
begin to have a cellular reaction that will present in
the wounds. In the wound track. You'll see hemorrhage in
dwelling hemorrhage in there because as we well know, the
dead do in fact not bleed, and so that would
be something that would kind of rise through to the surface.
But the phraseology here is very compelling. I would like

(12:21):
to have more information relative to this so that I
could kind of sus it out scientific Yeah.

Speaker 5 (12:26):
You know me too, because you know we understand that
Kaylee put up quite a fight, yeah, and you know
we learned that from Steve Consalvez. Kaylee's father, who you know,
at some point she sat up in bed. I have
my own thoughts about that, but this is what we
learned from Steve right, that she sat up in bed, and.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
She put up quite a fight, and he there was
a struggle of some we know.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
We know that.

Speaker 5 (12:49):
And when I first saw Olivia's TikTok, I thought, oh,
maybe it was just during the throes of this fight
the knife, you know, kind of scraping her or whatnot.
But when I dug into what speriment or wounds were more,
I kind of learned through my reading at least that,
like you said, they would have been able to see
that she hadn't been bleeding. And the cellular change that

(13:12):
happens to these wounds when you're cut. If you're alive,
your cells react, if you're not, they don't.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Right, Yeah, there's a trauma response at a cellular level,
and I think sometimes people are surprised by that. And
this shouldn't be I mean, that's just the way we're made,
right And Yeah, and I've covered God, it seems like
more and more, particularly on bodybags, I've covered more and
more of these cases where people are doing things with

(13:38):
the dead of course, we could add that to the
litany of all these other cases that are out there.
But again, I'd like to try to understand, you know,
how this information was actually relate to her, if there's
been something that has been lost in translation. But here's
the thing about it. There's a lot of specificity here

(13:58):
on her part. So she's taken in some type of information.
I just don't know how to marry it up with
the wounds that we're talking about and maybe a descriptor
that you know, I guess from a scientific perspective. One
of the things that I was hoping for in the
trial is that we would have an explanation of the trauma,
because we've heard about the trauma. And again, I'll go

(14:20):
back to what I've said before, and I will always
stand by this. I wanted this bastard to allocute in court,
and I wanted him to say it, and I wanted
them to talk about it just so we could understand
the level of horror and what this guy had done.

Speaker 4 (14:36):
Yeah, me too, And I think, you know, Joseph, I
think he will eventually.

Speaker 5 (14:39):
I think he's going to, you know, get lost in
oblivion and he's going to get bored and he's going
to talk maybe I cancur well.

Speaker 7 (14:47):
Time will tell, but listen when we come back.

Speaker 6 (14:50):
What we will absolutely tell you is more answers to
your questions about Ellen Greenberg. The talkbacks have been coming
in fast and furious, and Joseph be here with us.
We also have Crime Lab with Joseph.

Speaker 7 (15:04):
And we want to hear from you.

Speaker 6 (15:05):
Eight A eight through one crime True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. Put your hands in the air.
The whole studio. Everybody is listen. They're doing their commercial break.
Hands in the air, everybody. Yes, we're also doing a
little self care Sunday. Don't forget anybody, So if you
have any great self care tips for this glorious Sunday,
let us know. Because our Noxima wipes have also been recalled,

(15:41):
so I can't even take my makeup off. They're dangerous FYI.
But listen, we've gotten lots of talkbacks about Joseph's one
of these cases that's so close to him, Ellen Greenberg,
her alleged suicide, and some of them we even heard
last week but didn't totally know how to answer since
they are so specific to the forensics. So Joseph, let's

(16:02):
just hop right in. Can we go straight to we
talk back?

Speaker 8 (16:05):
Hey j Gooes, it is Mary Kay from Cincinnati, Ohio.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
Again.

Speaker 8 (16:09):
I was just listening to the Ellen Greenberg episode and
my issue and I'd love to know what Joseph thinks
is if she stabbed herself in the back of the head,
which is what the stab pattern looks like, wouldn't it
have an angle on it if you're trying to stop
unless she keeps switching hands.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
And what a good question. I love Jacos too, great
question though, I do too. I like that great questions.

Speaker 6 (16:35):
Yeah, absolutely, And we actually had heard a longer version
of this last week, but since it was addressed to Joseph,
we wanted him to cover it to catch anyone up.
Ellen Greenberg was an absolutely beloved twenty seven year old
teacher in Philadelphia. She was found with twenty stab wounds
multiple bruises. Originally, her death was ruled homicide. It was

(16:57):
then quickly changed to suicide after a meeting with police
held privately with the pathologist, and then over the past
fourteen years has been ongoing back and forth legal You know,
they're trying to settle homicide versus suicide. So, Joseph, you've
been very close with this case.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
Yeah, I have. And Mary kay right, is that our
name Cincinnati? Yeah, thanks for asking this question, because it's
certainly sailing it. I think that family's team did an
excellent job with the three D rendering that everybody's familiar with.
And if you take a look at that image, not
only are there various wound tracks if you think of

(17:38):
and we talk about wound tracks with knives, and it's
the same as like bullet trajectories in a way, you know,
because they track through the tissue and we do, in
fact track each one of those at autopsy. Not only that,
but and you have some that are kind of from
above to below and from left to right and from
below to above. But the blade of the knife as

(18:03):
well is turning. So if you just think about instead
of the blade being configured in a north south position
where the southern position of the knife is the actual
blade the cutting edge, they'll rotate to the east west
orientation as well. So this knife knife is not only
entering the body, but the knife is also kind of

(18:27):
changing the positionality relative to the strike. This is a
very dynamic event. However, the wounds on the back appear
to be essentially in the same orientation, with the blade
being in the southern oriented position and entering the back.
More so on the front, you will see this variation

(18:48):
in how the knife is. This knife would have had
to have been turned or rotated in the hand or regripped.
I think again, that's another one of these enduring mysteries
relative to these injuries that Ellen sustained, and is the.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Assertion that she potentially stabbed herself in the back so
many times to set somebody up. Was she trying to
set a stage so it didn't look like a suicide.
It seems like a tremendous awful thing. I mean, we're
talking all things, and tremendously hideous. I recognize we're in

(19:23):
that conversation right now, so there are no perfect words
to use. But if the if death is the goal,
and a self inflicted one, I might add, it rips
my heart out. But from behind just seems just seems
so unusually unlikely.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
Yeah, and we're talking, you know, these these insults stuff
to our posterior. We're talking double digits here. Some of
them might even cross communicate, like sometimes in the Morgue.
We'll have a very difficult time differentiating between stab wound
A and stabwoin B because they're literally right on top
of each other, and there were some question about that
early on, and penetratively they're at different depths. They're not

(20:05):
all consistently at the same depth. One of the really
nasty injuries that people seem to, you know, kind of forget,
and this is a sharp force injury, is the if
folks at home will kind of take their right hand
and put it on the back of their head, if
you'll find your occipital what's called your occipital protuberance, which
is kind of the bump on the back of your head,
and go above that and over to the right. She's

(20:27):
got a really really nasty and sized wound there that's
several centimeters in link so and that's a full thickness
injury that she sustained as well. So it's not just
these penetrative injuries like that, they're like stab ones. She's
actually got to slice on top of her head as well.
This is a very painful, painful event, y'all.

Speaker 4 (20:47):
For Ellen, poor Ellen.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
This is my heart just rips out for her, for
her family and anyone who knew her and loved her,
because it doesn't seem as though they feel closer to
real answers also, which is you know, really rough.

Speaker 5 (21:03):
Yeah, And you know, the more attention this gets, the
more people come out of the woodwork, right, you get
unscrupulous characters involved and whatnot, And everyone just needs to
be very careful on who they talk to, you know,
her family and whatnot. Needs to be on the lookout
for Cyster's right, Like, yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
Agree the green Berks. However, I have to say the
green Berks have a really good team around them. Those people,
their attorneys and also their private investigator that has worked
for them for some pom fantastic gentlemen. They don't suffer fools.
They do not suffer fools. So I think that they're
gonna they're going to protect her, protect them.

Speaker 6 (21:39):
We have a I'm sorry ahead, Yeah, I was going
to say, I think we have similar talkbacks lined up this.

Speaker 9 (21:45):
Story from Utah, And these are the days that I
really wish I had listened live instead of the next day.
I'm listening to the Getting six Apartment six with three discussion,
and I knew it was going to get me riled up.
I beget this case just does. And she did not
do this to herself. She didn't hold some knife on
a wall or whatever and back up into it. You

(22:06):
look at him and how that nine one one call
is so ridiculous. That knife and as I'm misunderstanding, and
it was hidden under some big jacket or something, but
to my what I've seen and heard, it was visible
from the start. And I'm talking about someone with a
zipper and then goes, oh my god, there's a knife,
she gabbed herself. I'm only a few minutes into the discussion,

(22:29):
he said, I already was like riled up and needing
to call me a message something to go back and
continue with me. Thanks for the discussion.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
She's the best, by the way. We all had that
same reaction, by the way, it gets yeah.

Speaker 5 (22:41):
Really in our guts. The knife was very visible through
her hoodie. I mean it was sticking right out. And he's,
you know, on the phone with a nine one one
operator and he says, I'm gonna on zipper hoodie. So
I'm paraphrasing, Okay, I'm gonna on zipper hoodie, and oh wait,
there's a knife. There's a knife in our chest and
it's like, what, why do you talk talking about you?
You didn't notice the huge knife in her heart area?

Speaker 7 (23:05):
Right?

Speaker 6 (23:05):
It was very many people find it to be suspect.
And Joseph, what that talkback was referring to was someone
else left to talk back, and the suggestion was potentially
that Ellen herself sort of had the knife braced against
the wall and potentially backed up into it.

Speaker 7 (23:26):
Do you have a thought on the likelihood of that.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yeah, Anatomically, I think that it's still highly implausible that
even okay, even if we say okay, unless they are
theorizing that she had some kind of anchorage on the
handle of the knife that literally made the knife protrude
out from a wall so that she could back up

(23:51):
into it, and not wielding the knife herself with her
own her own two hands or either one of her hands.
I still find that that kind of fanciful. And know you,
it's kind of like these cases that we you know,
that we hear about where people will uh concur incur

(24:11):
rather forgive me incur multiple bruises and you'll have someone say, uh, yeah,
they fell down the stairs. And of course my next
question and granted I'm you know, kind of snarky by nature,
I will say, uh, well, exactly how many times do
they downstairs? Because you know, you don't get this many
injuries by a single fall onto either a heart surface

(24:35):
or a sharp instrument okay, or a rock. You know,
you it's generally one and done. You might have some
associate peripheral stuff. But guys, again, I go back to
this number. We're talking double digit stab wounds here. That's
a lot. That's a lot.

Speaker 4 (24:52):
I do appreciate though, that people are thinking outside the box.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
I want to. I want everybody to think, yeah, absolutely
they have.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
Definitely, we're kind of coming at it at all angles,
you know, and to the nine to one one call.
I mean, we never really never know what that situation
is like until you're in it, right, But I am
curious why her fiance hasn't been more vocal about finding
answers for her or you know, saying something loving about her.

(25:19):
You know, she's sort of been left out to dry
and to be judged as you know, a beloved school teacher,
which is which is also really rough. Yeah, do we
have another talk.

Speaker 10 (25:30):
About Hey, y'all step from Bama. I literally just pulled
my share up to the true crime table and ready.

Speaker 3 (25:37):
To do takes.

Speaker 10 (25:38):
I'm so excited that I finally get to talk with
y'all about the Ellen Greenberg documentary. My mind has just
been because what so I need to know y'all thoughts
on this?

Speaker 3 (25:51):
How?

Speaker 11 (25:51):
When, where?

Speaker 10 (25:52):
Who? And in what world? Why did it take so
long for him to see the knife? I mean, I
know not all trauma responses are the same, but come on, really, really, dude,
I mean help me to understand. Thanks, y'all, y'all are
the best.

Speaker 5 (26:10):
Yeah, this goes back hood even again, right, you know
this this idea And for those that don't know, go
listen to the nine one one call. It's available, you
can listen to it. And in this nine one one call,
he's like, she stabbed herself or something. Again, I'm gonna
I'm gonna paraphrat Why didn't he assume that somebody had
stabbed her?

Speaker 7 (26:29):
Right?

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Right? But how did enter all crime scene that clearly someone?
A great question caller? Why wasn't his assumption? Oh my goodness,
I'm finding my fiance with a knife in her There's
been an intruder, right, somebody has come in and, you know,
and and taken her life. You know, I'm just wondering
that she stabbed herself. It was weird.

Speaker 3 (26:53):
I've actually had cases where people again, I'm so glad,
and I promise you she's not my neighbor. She said,
y'all wost Tom. I know Obama, she is not my neighbor.
I did not. I did not ask her to call
him a God bless her love her accent. The you know,
the thing about it is is that I've had cases

(27:14):
where people that were you know, we've talked about this
before step that are the finder. I use this term
a lot on body bags as well, because those are
the point of contact, those people that that visualize the
horror before anybody else. And I'm talking about the first
responders as well. You know, they see it before everybody. Generally,
some civilian doesn't have any experience with it, and you

(27:35):
do miss things. And that's part of what she's talking
about here with trauma response. Initially, you might see someone
that is deceased and you don't know, but you know,
here here's the thing. Many times will go back after
we've gotten an initial report on a case and we
will find additional trauma that it's like, wow, gee, we

(27:58):
didn't see this at the scene. Or lighting was poor,
or it was covered with clothing, and then suddenly you
have this, you know, this epiphany, you know, scientific epiphany
on the table when you're beginning to you know, just clothing.
I've actually had weapons fall out of pockets of the
dead onto a stainless steel table and it you know,

(28:19):
you hear it. But again, this is this is difficult
I think for many people to understand or to visualize
how you can have this knife. And it's not like
some tiny, little paring knife. Okay, this is this. This
knife is significant. It's it's rather substantial. It's kind of glaring.

(28:41):
And so when you see that, you know, I think
it's it's reasonable for people to actually say, how do
you not see it? You know, but you know you
have to step back just for a second and give
people a certain degree of the benefit of the doubt.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, that's a.

Speaker 5 (28:59):
Good point, because I did judge his reaction. I and
so you bring up a fair point. And for those
who don't know, I'm going to repeat it again. On
this nine one one call, he says that he's gonna
unzip her hoodie and he's like, oh, I can't, I
can't do it.

Speaker 4 (29:14):
Oh, there's a knife sticking out of her chest.

Speaker 5 (29:16):
And again I'm paraphrasing, and you know, but you get
the gist, right, liking that's what he's saying. And it's
just really strange because in the photos that we've seen
of poor Ellen, the knife is very obvious. But is
it because we're not in that trauma response? It could be, right,
it could be because we're not experiencing that trauma that

(29:39):
Sam did when when he found her right right.

Speaker 6 (29:43):
And then the other thing to consider, Stephanie, you'd earlier
mentioned very reasonably, why would the first assumption be she
did this to herself versus it was done to her.

Speaker 7 (29:52):
And keep in mind, if we to.

Speaker 6 (29:53):
Believe what he has stated as his facts, he had
to break the door and open it was locked.

Speaker 7 (29:57):
She was locked in by herself.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, right, So next talkback, are you up for it?

Speaker 3 (30:02):
Unless Roll says I'm ready.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
I like your style.

Speaker 12 (30:05):
All right, let it rep Hi and you were talking
about the Delphi murders last week, and that made me
think of a question. If I remember correctly, Joseph Scott
Morgan mentioned there was unknown DNA fount of the scene.
If I'm remembering that correctly, has any forensic genealogical research
been done to identify the owner of that DNA, thank you.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
Yeah, not to the best of my knowledge. And I
think that's a fantastic my point because and I don't know,
I don't know that there is the bureaucratic will to
do that at this point motivation, But but that's that's
the that's the reality of it. But you know, there's

(30:47):
still all of these things that that swirl and look
with high profile cases there there's always going to be
these ghosts that swirl around cases all the time and
you'll never have the ability to answer any of them.
And many of us I think that, I think many
of us would like to think that, you know, well,
if there is unknown DNA, there is there any way

(31:08):
it could be tested? Well, yeah, I mean I'm covering
cases right now in body bags. You know that they've
got DNA that goes back fifty and sixty years. Wow,
and they're solving cases with it. So I think the
viability of it dependent upon how it was collected, has
been stored since then. It's probably still viable. They could
probably get something out of it. Well, the question is

(31:32):
do they have the will to do it?

Speaker 4 (31:34):
Well, no, they don't.

Speaker 5 (31:35):
Right, there's a convicted man in prison right now serving
time for these murders, and they're not really motivated. But
the forensic analysts who testified about the DNA, who testified
about the dNaM, sorry, said that there wasn't enough for
an SMP profile. You know, there was a lot of
unknown male DNA at the scene and none of it
matchment Richard Allen.

Speaker 4 (31:56):
That's number one and number two.

Speaker 5 (31:59):
She did justify that, you know, you know, while this
was DNA was found, that it's common that there will
be unknown male DNA and very small amounts due to
sharing laundry spaces. But it is in laundry spaces, yeah,
like if you have like your son, or your or
your daughter or you know, your.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Dad, almost somebody who are doing laundry with or for.

Speaker 5 (32:22):
But it's important to know that Abigail Williams, she's one
of the victims here, did not live with any men.
But she was also wearing Libby's clothes and Libby did
live with men.

Speaker 3 (32:33):
So yeah, there are actually test cases out there and
maybe one hot profile case where there was DNA that
was transferred onto I think it was an actual case,
and forgive me, I can't remember which one where there
was DNA transferred from a a factory line worker that
produced underwear and A and it transferred on Yeah, yeah,

(32:55):
that's right, Yeah, and it survived.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
I was so hell bent on the knife in the
Brian Coburger case. I was that that that I held
on real tight for that possibly being DNA from someplace
else because of this exact example in the John Banat
Ramsay case.

Speaker 6 (33:16):
Stand by just for anyone else like me who was
not conversant. Can you say that again, what happened with
Jombane's under.

Speaker 5 (33:25):
When they did the DNA test and they found unknown
male DNA and it belonged to the factory worker who
was like sewing her pants together.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
That always surprises me when you see other cases where
the you know, a small micro bit of DNA becomes
the smoking gun, because I've personally either heard of or
worked on cases where transfer is possible, and even right
now working on a documentary that I can't wait to
tell you all about. I can't wait. It really dates
back for decades, and you know it does involve kind

(34:00):
of going to the body farms and also looking at
DNA that may have a need to be retested, and
all of these circumstances are really big, really big parts
of a potential solve, and it's it's pretty incredible what
technology today is able to do, even with well, you know,
decaying evidence.

Speaker 5 (34:21):
Well, hopefully DNA advances, right, and it always does, right,
the DNA technology, and there's all this new science coming out,
and you know, maybe in five ten years they'll be
able to have the technology to test the small sample
that they have right now of this DNA that they
found on you know, the items in.

Speaker 4 (34:38):
The Creek of Delphi.

Speaker 5 (34:40):
You know, the Greek had all the you know, some
shirts and some shoes and a bandana that, by the way,
they never tested the DNA and the bandana drives me
absolutely insane. Abby had hair in her. Abby, she's one
of the victims. She had hair in her in her
fingers like kind of like intertwined. They never tested it
until the day the trial started. I mean, it literally

(35:01):
makes me crazy thinking about this. But hopefully, hopefully, you know,
they'll test for that stuff in a couple of years
maybe when technology advances, so stand you stand.

Speaker 7 (35:10):
By for that.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
This case I find very confusing. I know, this is
one that you're so much closer to you and Joseph
than I am. I really learned about it mostly through you,
and I have more questions and answers, to be honest,
and some of their alternate theories do seem slightly sensible,
which is really brutal. And now that I've said that
out loud, I want to take it back because I

(35:33):
don't want anyone to feel that justice isn't being served
or that, you know, I'm as an outsider looking and
trying to poke holes. But it's a complicated case and
so disturbing and sad.

Speaker 5 (35:45):
It's very, very complicated and sad. Thank you for that.
This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. I Boddy moving here with Stephanie
and I Decker and Courtney Armstrong. We are joined by
Justice Scott Morgan, forensic death investigator and the host of
the hit podcast body Bags. Right now we're going through
some talkbacks. Let's hit another one.

Speaker 11 (36:03):
Hi, True Crime tonight, Sam. This is Andy from Minnesota.
I first talk to you guys the night of the
Annunciation School shooting. Yes, but a completely different topic. I
was just listening to your Sunday Night episodes with Joseph
Scott Morgan and talking about the Body Farm, and I

(36:25):
just wanted to note that doctor Bass wrote a series
of true crime fiction that includes The Body Farm and
kind of the behind the scenes of what goes on there.
And if you like that kind of murder mystery, true
crime fiction, I highly recommend doctor Bass's book. That's all
I wanted to say. I hope you guys have a

(36:45):
wonderful night.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
Oh look, I don't know you wrote books fiction books.

Speaker 3 (36:51):
Yeah, he has. And I was telling you guys, I'll
tell everyone else. One of the I think probably one
of the the text that professionally that must have is
a text very simply titled human Osteology for those of

(37:11):
us that work in the field, and it came out
in a rate. Do you know that kind of fortified
paper back binding that you have that's kind of resilient,
water resilient, these things are made out, you know, it
has that like you could take it into the field
with you. I've got buddies of mine that have taken
the pages and detached them from the spine and had
them all laminated and they would carry in a binder.

(37:33):
That's how useful this text was. And it was kind
of groundbreaking when it first came out. But another good
line of fiction I would recommend quickly as it applies
to forensic anthropology is a dear friend of mine who's
now retired. She's retired from LSU Department of Archaeology and Anthropology,

(37:54):
and she's world renowned. Her name is Mary Manhein and
wrote a series called The Bone Lady, and she's the
first person, the first person that every human skull and
digitized it. And she ran and founded the Faces Lab
at LSU, which I worked with extensively in my time
down in New Orleans. They were the first people to

(38:15):
actually do clay renderings based upon found skulls. And she's
she's written several books as well, so I highly recommend those.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
I'm taking notes. There is a few places I would
want to be less than in a body farm. And
I don't mean that to be glad, but it sounds
so scary to me. It sounds scary, and I have
such respect for the work of you know, doctor Bass
or mister Bass. He's a doctor and he's really oh,

(38:45):
he's the he's the guy.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
He is the guy, he certainly is, and he's he's
the person you turned to he's he is that Uh,
he's that cornerstone. I think that's pushed that's pushed out
the practice. And it was a tool that I think
it was the tool that we never knew that we
truly needed to the degree that we need it now.
And oh my lord, we've been talking about DNA with

(39:08):
all of these cold cases that are out there. I
mean there are mountains and mountains of these cases out there. Guys.
I've been in medical legal offices before, and you would
be shocked by the things I've seen of just boxed
skeletal remains that have no name, that are just sitting
on shelf somewhere that no one knows who they are.

(39:29):
Their points of origin have yet to be determined. You
know where they came from, who their family is. And
you know, I always use particularly when we're getting and
we're heading toward Thanksgiving right now, and I always think
of the empty chair at the table. That's That's one
of the things that I always contemplate because I've stood
over so many unidentified bodies over the course of my career,

(39:50):
and it's people like doctor Bass and that generation of
forensic scientists that have really set us on the course,
now where we are today with forends and now evolving
into GG as well.

Speaker 6 (40:03):
Yeah, it's amazing the progression. And for anyone who wants
to read any of the fiction. Doctor Bill Bass, he is,
of course that legendary forensic anthropologist we've been talking about,
and he co writes a series called Body Farm. He
does that with journalists a guy named John Jefferson and
his pen name doctor Bass is Jefferson Bass.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Oh that's clever.

Speaker 6 (40:28):
Yeah, so Boddy said, you taken notes if I am
taking that reading list Carved in bone, flesh and bone,
the Devil's Bones and more.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
When Joseph first talked to me about doctor Vass again
a case that we've been working on for a really
long time, and I needed some guidance from Joseph and
he was like, you should one hundred percent reach out
in Knoxville to the Party Farm. And you know, doctor
Bill Blast, he's the he's the guy and I wrote
down in my scratchy notes designer. So when I had

(40:57):
to repeat that, I was like, there's a diner that's
very well known in the forensic space. I was thinking
of Bill Blast, the clothing designer. Oh, which of course
is not the case. But to solve that little riddle
took me many many days. Wow, something, Wo've come a
long way from taking those notes. But yeah, that's a

(41:17):
really important stuff. We should donate our organs, right, I
know this is a little tangential, but is that the
box that we should check on our license when applying
for one?

Speaker 3 (41:26):
Joseph, Yeah, yeah, well I do. Are we talking about organs?
Are we talking about bodies?

Speaker 2 (41:33):
I guess any of it.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
Well, there are people that do, in fact donate their
their remains to the body form and for some reason,
I don't know if it's because I'm kind of out
there in this world, you know, I will literally have people,
you know, contact me and say, yeah, my uncle or
my aunt wants to donate their remains to the body farm.

(41:55):
I'm like, yeah, that that ain't my department. I can
maybe find you the phone number at UT and you
can you can reach out to them. But yeah, people
people actually do that. And you know, at jack State
right now we have a human anatomy lab for the
first time for our forensic students, and we're actually doing
gross deus sections with undergraduate students. So yeah, and that's

(42:18):
that's the benevolent nature of individuals that want to use
their remains for the betterment of scientific discovery, and you
know we're we're a benefactor of that at my university.
So yeah, I would. I would highly recommend it. I
certainly would.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Okay, I needed to hear that that's exactly what I
will do. I'm getting tomorrow. Yeah, I mean I have
that actually on my previous license. I did just check it,
but I don't know why.

Speaker 7 (42:44):
So since we're.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
Talking about it, I might also just do the gut check.

Speaker 6 (42:48):
I think there's a distinction, right because on your license,
my understanding is donate your organs is if something happens
to you that someone needs.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
Your license is simply your organs to donate your.

Speaker 3 (43:00):
The other one is actually called anatomical donation, and that's
the entirety of your remains, as opposed to an organ
donor where they do organ harvestation. I've had the great
fortune of working with organ donor organizations because of working
for corners and medical examiners. They will have to get

(43:21):
our approval before they can actually because if you have
a traumatic death, there is a forensic assessment that has
to take place, and so we will coordinate with them
when we know that the individual is going to be
passing on and they will have to get us trauma notes,
they will have to let us know, let us know
about what's going on and what's going to happen. And

(43:42):
maybe sometime I'll tell you a really unique story about
organ donation and forensic death investigation that directly involves me.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Is this going to be a flipanger?

Speaker 3 (43:54):
Yeah, it is a clip paint.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
Off air.

Speaker 5 (43:58):
Have you guys ever seen the videos of people that are,
you know, getting ready to pass and they're organ donors
and the hospital staff kind of you know, wheels their
bed down the hallway and there's like the row. I'm
gonna start crying because it makes me so emotional, like
for real. I don't know why it does, but it does.
There's like the row of the doctors and nurses that
are I think it's called an angel walk a walk.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
I don't know what this is.

Speaker 5 (44:23):
Yeah, it's it's basically the hospital staff showing respect to
the person that's going to be donating the organs and
they film a lot of people film it and post
it to social media. It's the most beautiful thing and
it's so emotional for me, especially Oh, I just it
breaks my heart, but yeah, because they're basically saving like
how many lives can be saved from one organ donor.

Speaker 4 (44:44):
It's just it's incredible and I'm here for it.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
I know for it too. I'm here, I've we've seen
it firsthand too. I have some personal friends who have
really benefited from the donation. So listen more on this
stick with us. Joseph Scott Morgan will remain with us.
We have the Crime Lab coming up and also some
spooky Halloween stories True Crime Tonight. Welcome back to True

(45:14):
Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time.
I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong, Body Move In
and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan. Because it is scientific Sunday.
And if you've missed any of the first hour of
the show, absolutely no worries. You could always catch it
as a podcast. Please do. And if you want to

(45:35):
join us live eight eight three one crime or leave
us talkbacks for doing that so so well, it's so
good to hear your voices, or you could always dm
us if you want to be super super anonymous about it,
but not necessary, jump in join us. We have the
smartest callers. It's frankly unbelievable. I Love was just saying

(45:55):
this during the break, So yeah, it makes us so happy. So, Joseph,
we tried this a little bit last week and then
of course we ran out of time and there was
some sort of audio thing. So we did crime Lab
last Sunday, you may remember, and we started talking about
time of death and how to determine it, and then
it went a little sideways. So we're revisiting it, not

(46:17):
because we have amnesia, but simply because we didn't fully
unpack it the way we were supposed to do.

Speaker 4 (46:23):
Stephanie Courtney was the jewel thief.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
She wasn't exactly her cherry picking Chris.

Speaker 7 (46:28):
It was otherwise engaged ed.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
We're going to talk about that tomorrow. Ed you got
to come back with us because tomorrow we're going to
unpack the arrests in the heist. I don't think we
forgot about that, but that's more of a Monday thing.
Since we have Joseph here, we really want to dig
into two more forensics, so so more on that to come.
So Joseph, Yeah, fell us in about the time of

(46:54):
death and how it is determined.

Speaker 3 (46:57):
Well, you know, there's there's three primary areas that we
look at that we observe at a scene. Okay, so
in many many folks you know, as you as you mentioned,
our listeners are very bright. So I know that many
of them, because they're true crime fans, have heard these terms.
But just let me run through them. We do riger mortise,

(47:18):
which is also referred to as rigidity. Some people say
riger some say rigor. It's okay, either one. There's no
word police here. We have liver or liver mortis, which
is the settling of blood and some people refer to
that as post mortem lividity. And then we have alger mortise,

(47:41):
which has to do with body temperature. Now I'm going
to take these from the least reliable. All right, Like
the thing, if if you were to put a case
in front of me, what is it, which one of
these would you turn to first? And I'm going to
tell you the one that I'm going to strike off
the list first is the one that we hear most
about when you're watching any kind of you know, procedural thing,

(48:05):
and that's algormortois body temperature. It's the data from it
has very little utility. These measurements always, and I mean always,
have to be done at the scene. You cannot wait
and do this at the more. Okay, this has to

(48:25):
be done at the scene because so much of it,
well particularly with temperature, is environmentally deependent. Okay, So not
only do you have to measure the temperature on the body,
but you also have to measure environmental temperature at the
same time, and you do these. You do this in segments.
So you'll take an overall environmental temperature, which is referred

(48:49):
to as ambient environmental temperature, and then you take the
temperature of the body. Well, a lot of people say,
well how do you do that? Good question, all right,
because it's been a major point of debate for a
long time. I used to do what are called axillary temps,
where we would take a standard glass thermometer and put

(49:10):
it in the armpit. Actually, look, when I.

Speaker 4 (49:13):
Was a kid, that's what my mom would do.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
Right, exactly. Yeah, and so but that's not getting to
the core, all right, the core, the body, the interior.
We hear about core when we work out, right, you
need to have good core strength. Well, we talk about
core body temperature because that's what holds on the core
of the body is the densest part of the body.
You know, it's kind of like you know, when it's

(49:35):
cold out, Moms has put a hat on, right, so
you have heat that escapes even the deaddoo out of
the top of the head and then from the periphery
as well. And so one of the things that has
been suggested over the years is that we do and
I get ready, that we make an incision that's scene
over the liver and you insert a digital thermometer into

(49:57):
the liver and take temperature there. Well, it's all finding good,
but in the world of lawyers, you have to do
every scene every time, and you have to repeat that
every time. So that's problematic. If say, for instance, you've
got a multiple stab wing case, you're now going to
be taking a scalpel at a scene and introducing that
into a multiple stabling case or even a bullet trajectory

(50:20):
or a gunshot wound case. It doesn't it doesn't match up.
You have to look at long term you know, consequences
here because it's in the data that you might glean
from that. I'll put it to you this way, just
like my grandpap. You say it ain't worth the gunpowder
below the hell at the end of the day, it's

(50:41):
just it's not worth the risk. So when I got
toward the end of my career, I was basically saying,
the body is either warm to the touch or cool
in the touch. And you know, and it's real because
you know, after a twelve hours, After twelve hours you've
heard the term room temperature, you have literally assumed room

(51:02):
temperature at that point in time. You've bled off every
bit of energy that creates heat in your body at
that twelfth hour. And now if you're in a room
where the sun is rising, you know through a window
you're going to be affected. The remains are going to
be affected, just like a piece of furniture in that room. Okay,
after that twelve hour, you're subject to all the other

(51:25):
environmental parameters in that environment. So algar is probably the
least useful out of all of these that I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Can I ask one quick question on that particular piece,
Does it matter what your normal body temperature would be like?
For example, I'm always like my extremities are always frozen,
or you know what, or in reverse some version, I'm
never room temperature. It's there's a high low avenue, but
I'm always like a little cold, So in that case,

(51:56):
that could be perceived as a longer amount of time that.

Speaker 7 (51:59):
I it could be.

Speaker 3 (52:01):
Yeah, and that's a good point. There are certain factors
that affect core body temperature. Let's say, for instance, for
parents that have infants, one of the most terrifying things
you can have happen with a baby is when they
spike this temp. And for some reason, babies will spike
these just horrific numbers many times, well many times we
will have babies that will pass away and when that happens,

(52:25):
when that happens, they might die with a spiked temp.
So their temp is going to be elevated as opposed,
and any other sick individual might as well. They're spiking
a tempt. You can also have illicit drug use, things
like meth and coke that can elevate your temp actually,
and it can impact that, you know, and many of

(52:45):
us as we get older, we have poor circulation, so
our sensitivities are that it is cold, but that doesn't
necessarily mean that we're at some drastic number that's really
really low. And no, not everybody is walking around with
ninety eight point six. That's not the reality. There are
many matter of fact, my body temp most of the
time is around about at ninety seven.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
Uh. And Joseph Scott, right, yeah, yeah, well yeah, you know, you'd.

Speaker 4 (53:13):
Have to get scanned at least. I need to walk
into buildings and whatnot. Here in Las Vegas.

Speaker 5 (53:18):
You have to see if you were spaking to I
was always hot, I was always running hot.

Speaker 4 (53:21):
I didn't know I always runn about ninety nine yea.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
So none of these things are static like that. And
so the the you know, the utility of it, I
think is what you have to look at. Now. For me, uh,
probably number two on the list is going to be rigidity.

Speaker 13 (53:40):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (53:40):
And when we think about that, so for anybody, let
me give you an idea of what traditionally people refer
to as ryger morts or rigidity. If you've ever worked out,
and you haven't worked out in a while, and you
wake up the next morning, have your fifth felt that stiffness,
and it doesn't matter if you take tyl and al
or ibuprofen or anything like that. Do you think wait,

(54:01):
can I say that? Are they going to sponsor us
now anyway? So I didn't think so anyway, So you
think about you think about that, whether you take it
or not, that stiffness is eventually going to subside. All right, Well,
the reason, the reason you feel that stiffness most of
the time is it's a lactic acid build up and

(54:24):
it dissipates, it's metabolized. The dead don't have the ability
to metabolize any longer, so in the post mortem state
they have in their joints, they have lactic acid build up,
and that starts with rigidity. And people say that it
begins in different areas at different times. That's not true.

(54:46):
It begins everywhere simultaneously in all the muscle groups. It's
just most appreciable in the small muscles of the face.
So you can actually have rigidity in the muscles of
the eelids, certainly in the jaw presents there. And then
it extends out to larger muscle groups because those muscle
groups are larger.

Speaker 7 (55:06):
Oh so interesting.

Speaker 6 (55:08):
I didn't I also had preconceived notions that it started
in certain places. Well, listen, I have a couple of
other questions for you, And if you have questions for
Joseph Scott Morgan, give us a call. We're at eighty
to eighty three to one crime True Crime Tonight, and Joseph
is walking us through sort of the core forensic markers
of how you determine time of death.

Speaker 7 (55:30):
So as.

Speaker 6 (55:33):
As the rigor mort is does, does it peak at
a certain time, happen and then dissipate and what does.

Speaker 7 (55:39):
That look like?

Speaker 3 (55:40):
Yeah, yeah, it does. And so it's gonna present and
it's dependent. It's individually dependent, right, And most of the
time you're going to see you're going to see a presentation,
particularly in the smaller muscle groups at about two to
four hours down range in the about the tenth or
twelfth hour, or you'll see an individual become fully rigid.

(56:04):
I've seen. There's a classic image that appears in Spitz
and Fisher Medical Legal Investigation of Death. Doctor Werner Spitz
is actually the one that consulted on the Jean Benay
case famously from the CBS. If you remember that he
wrote that book, and that's a book that first came
out in sixty six. There's a classic picture in there
where they have a human remain between two chairs with

(56:25):
the back of the head resting on one chair and
the heels resting on another chair, and it looks like
you can the iron a shirt this on the decedent's body.
That's how rigid the body gets. And so but after
that point in time, rigidity begins to recede very very slowly,
and out to about the thirty six hour mark, it's

(56:46):
now dissipated. And one of the interesting markers about this,
you know, you say, well, Morgan, is this important. Well,
it's very important because it's with that that we can
measure these time since death. You go back to algramortise
the body temperature. You know you're looking at twelve hours there, right,

(57:07):
So if you marry that up with the data that
you're collecting on the level of rigidity, and we do that,
we do it in the fingers, the hips, the knees,
the ankles, the shoulders, the elbows, the jaw. We try
to measure it, okay, And there's not a specific number.
We give a range like ten being the highest, one
being the lowest. And so when bodies actually come out

(57:29):
of riger mortis or rigor mortis, they're flaccid at that
point in time. So if you have a cool body
that's flaccid and maybe has a little bit of an odor,
you know that they've already cycled through that. So those
are very important for us to annotate at scenes and
to make note of. But again, rigidity is something you

(57:50):
have to assess the scene. Now the pathologist is going
to assess it and make note of it. But that
data is all fine and good, but you've change the
game now the body has been removed from the pristine
state that it was in. After we get away from riger,
we come to my favor, which is actually is actually

(58:12):
going to be is actually going to be post mortem lividity.
And riger, by the way, just to step on it
one more quick second, is environmentally dependent in the seat
in the sense that heat speeds the process up. Okay,
So the hotter it is, you'll see an uptick in

(58:33):
the change in rigidity. Okay, So you can have this
post mortem lividity, which is the settling of blood. And
you know what, it's dependent upon the one that one
thing in nature that impacts us, all the ones that
are keeping our highnees, you know, welded to the seas

(58:54):
right now, and our feet on the floor, and that's gravity.
Gravity dictates dictates this, and so as it pools, as
the blood is drawn down, it's no longer circulating through
our body. Okay. I was one of those kids. I
never could hang upside down on a monkey bar right
at the playground. I was always envious of the little

(59:16):
kids that could do it. But did you ever notice
something when those kids would invert on a monkey bar.
What happens to their face and their head? Well, first,
it actually swells a little bit, and yet it does
change and so just think about that, and it freezes.
The color stays there, and it's depended upon them settling.
You can see. You can see live or mortise within

(59:38):
twenty minutes, okay, And it can also migrate around the
body if a body is say somebody kills somebody and
lets them sit on the floor for an hour, they
take them, put them in a trunk and reposition their body.
You can have two separate presentations of life for mortise,
and then once it gets out about twelve hours, baby,

(59:59):
it's fixed. There's not enough embalming fluid in the world.
And this is why the blood actually leeches out of
the capillary beds and it stains the interstitial tissue. You
can't drain it out. It's always there, and so it's
always going to point back to an individual, and it
becomes at that point what's referred to as non blanchable.
If you want to really do an experiment real quick,

(01:00:21):
just take your thumb and press it into your forearm,
and your forearm will actually blanch.

Speaker 7 (01:00:26):
As you do that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
You remove your thumb, Look, your skin blanches. If you've
got lividity that's fixed right there, maybe it ain't blanch.
It's going to stay there forever and ever.

Speaker 6 (01:00:37):
Amen, a man will come it up. Joseph Thrillingly will
be staying with us. We're kicking off a Halloween week
and we're going to share a case that really just
lives in Joseph Scott Morgan's kind of dreams and nightmares.

Speaker 7 (01:00:54):
That more True Crime Tonight, We're talking true crime all
the time.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong, Body Move In and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan. Listen,
Halloween is upon us. As I'm talking to you, I'm
putting on the vest and Joseph is holding up a
bloody skull. My goodness, Joseph, I don't like that prop

(01:01:30):
but yes, you probably have the best Halloween costumes. Is
that reably like skull and bones?

Speaker 4 (01:01:35):
I have to ask with you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
I don't. Oh no, I think that's like a paperweight
of swords, actually a candle, a skull, Joseph, only a
forensics that's what I have, Joseph. What you guys are

(01:01:57):
wondered spirits?

Speaker 7 (01:01:58):
Skulls are bound.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
That's wild that you both have the pen handle? Are
you kidding me right now? No, that's amazing. That is
that is the cleanest example of kindred spirits if ever
there was one, And that's awesome. We got to actually
post that. That's pretty wild because listen, Joseph's also going
to give us he's we're gonna lose him before we

(01:02:20):
do any of our self care because he's gotta go
to bed. But he is going to tell us a
couple of one a very scary tale that has him
chilled to the bone, which lets be real hard to
pull off, and also some interesting Halloween facts such as,
by the way, he's been teasing this to all of
us for for a bit now, none of us know

(01:02:42):
the answer. What is the origin of the word or
I guess term boo? And why is it so us?

Speaker 3 (01:02:51):
You can add another to it if you wish. I
don't know. Yeah, okay, I'll start off with this. Don't
have any Scooby Doo fansoo, and I like the old
Scooby Doo. I'm pretty scrappy dooe. I like the old nineties.
Took new Shaggy wast the entire time. He had the

(01:03:14):
munch easy the entire time.

Speaker 4 (01:03:15):
It was just Shaggy was definitely smoking something.

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
Yeah he was. He was on the wheetles. So there
you go. So anyway, Yeah, when when I was very young,
I mean young investigator, I was probably twenty years twenty
one years old, and I was working in the morgue
with a pretty cool forensic pathologist. He allowed me to

(01:03:37):
learn from him a real sage of a guy. And
we had an old man that came into into the
morgue that had died in a car accident. He had
had a heart attack, drove off the road and you know,
he sustained some trauma, but the heart attack is what

(01:04:00):
led to the car accident. And that's one of the
things you have, you know, you try to figure out
the puzzle, right, And we knew they had a long
history so we have him on the table and we're
doing what's referred to as the external examination. The old
pathologist is standing across from me. I'm young, I'm kind

(01:04:21):
of standing there, ready to do whatever he tells me
to do. I'll jump you just tell me how high,
that sort of thing. And so we have this old
gentleman undressed, and the pathologist is standing there with his clipboard,
and he says, okay, I'm ready to look at his back.

(01:04:41):
So that means that I have to take the old
gentleman by his right shoulder, okay with my right hand,
and his left hip and his right hip with my
left hand, and pull this fellow into me. Okay, standing
there right, just envision this. It's it's a morgue. It's

(01:05:03):
got the smell of chlorox and pond saw and there's
stainless still table. You can hear. You can hear the
knives and the instruments dropping and clinking on the on
the table, and water is always dripping in this place.
And so I'm standing there wanting to do a good job.

(01:05:24):
And I take take the old jized body and I
pull it toward me and he rests there against my chest, okay,
against the lower chest and abdomen because I'm standing upright.
He's on the table. He's lying now. The body is
on the left side. And it takes about twenty seconds quiet.
The doctor's just making notes on his clipboard, and all

(01:05:47):
of a sudden there is a sound and the sound
goes like.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
This, Oh my god, I got to quit this job instantly,
get out of I hate this story.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
And I freeze while gripping this guy's body. I'm not
letting go of it. Why I need a job. So
I'm standing there and I'm gripping this guy's body, and
I look up into the eyes of the pathologist and
there's this rye grin that comes over his face and

(01:06:26):
he leans in and he says scary in it, and
I was like, yes, sir. He's like, that's merely air
escaping his lungs and traveling over now his dead vocal
cords and issuing from his mouth. And we went on
to suggest at that point in time, and this is
why I think this is true that you might hear

(01:06:50):
people say boo, all right, it's not boo all the
old Scooby Doo shows, And I swear somebody has heard
this in the past before. That's in media and entertainment
because all of the older shows, the ghost as they
would be portrayed, would make the sound of like this.

(01:07:13):
That's the origin of this. That's where that comes from,
because the dead do make sounds like that, and they
can also be flagulant as well. But that's a story
for another time. And that does happen as well.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
Are you saying that I could art?

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
Yes, yeah, it happens. It happens on a regular basis.
Sure it does escape, but yeah, so that and it
at that moment in time. I know that's a funny,
you know, little ditty if you will. But when I
was a kid and I was twenty one years old,
it scared the hell out of me because I didn't
expect that to happen. And what's odd is that it

(01:07:50):
happened so many more times. I was around seven thousand autopsies,
and so it happened other it's a provable scientific thing
that goes on and other people have experience instant. But
you know what, every single time it happened, I was
always no matter how older, how much older I got
in the field, I would always look and to see
if the guy was blinking or something. When I was

(01:08:11):
doing that, I always had this indwelling fear that I
was going to start an autopsy and make the initial
incision and blood was going to start coming out of
the bottom. That's the biggest fear that you have. You
don't have the fear of the dead. You have the
fear that the person is not dead, that you're happened.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
No not to you, no, no, not for me.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
And they are these these stories that have bound out there,
and I know that people could dm these in. I
know people could talkbacks on them, because there are all
these stories that have come down for years and years
and years.

Speaker 5 (01:08:43):
You know, if you have one of these stories, give
us a call eighty eight thirty one Crime or as
Joseph suggested, leave us a talk back. I am dying
to hear these stories, so please do that. I'm body
moving and I'm here with Courtney and Stephanie and were
joined by Joseph Scott Morgan. So, Joseph, yeah, what is
the next What is the story that you were going
to tell us that haunts you already know.

Speaker 3 (01:09:10):
This is actually this is actually a real, a real story.
Because I think that people one of the questions that
that I always get as a former medical legal death
investigator and a person that was around the dead, uh
for so long, people you know, often ask me, have
you ever seen any kind of ghost or spectrum? You know,

(01:09:34):
thing you know that terrified you, And it never, it
never happened with me. That that's not something that ever occurred. However,
I have been in places. I believe places are haunted,
not people. I believe that that places. You can go

(01:09:54):
to certain places, and I know that folks out there
will understand what I'm saying. You you have the sense
of a presence that's there or something that was there
and that was that occupied that space that was probably
pretty dark, and I had it happened a couple of times.
But probably the most profound case that I ever had

(01:10:17):
was a case that I worked again when I was
a very young investigator. And this is a case of
an individual that's what he would be referred to today
as a family annihilator. And he was found dead actually
in his car that was parked in front of a
large Catholic parish in New Orleans. He had ended his

(01:10:42):
life in the car and when we got to the scene,
we began to examine him at the scene and also
the contents.

Speaker 11 (01:10:50):
Of his car.

Speaker 3 (01:10:51):
In the backseat of the car was just loaded with firearms.
I mean, I've never seen so many in one car,
just stacked in there, and the floorboard was covered in
all variety of ammunition. And you have people that will
go to graveyards and in their life, I've had people
in church parking lots. I think that it's you know,

(01:11:12):
they have the impression that it's you know, it might
be sacri Saint, you know, to be able to go
there for whatever reason. But we worked a case and
there was a detective that had come up and said,
we just got a call at a dental office and

(01:11:33):
we think it's his parents and his sister. And so
I went to the dental office after leaving that site,
and this young man had actually killed his mother and
his father, who was a prominent dentist, and his sister.
And kind of on a side note, when when we

(01:11:58):
went to do the autopsies the sister, we went to
examine her and she had this had her brazier on
and she had I think I counted one hundred and
twenty Saint Michael medals end to her brazier. They just

(01:12:19):
covered her all over and you know, when you see
something like that, you think the person's afraid of something,
that they're trying to protect themselves from something. And this
kid reflectively, you know, as I'm at the office and
where the parents have died and they've all been executed,

(01:12:42):
and seeing her on the table, I went to the
home where they all live. And these kids are adult kids.
These are not young young kids. The daughter was in
her early twenties, the son was in his late twenties,
and Guys, when I walked into this house that was
a one store, not really ranch, it was like one

(01:13:02):
of these It looked like one of these things you'd
see in Beverly Hills that a lot of people back
in the fifties, like a Dean Martin house, you know,
this kind of expansive once you know it had a
pool inside the house, which is really weird in New
Orleans to see this. But when you walk in the
first thing you see is this gigantic altar when you
walk through the front door, and there's a massive Bible

(01:13:26):
that's opened in front of it, and there's kneelers all
in front of it, and there are candles that had
been burned, and it looked like there were even little
votive candles over there where you could light candles like
you do at church. And you walk through the house
and there's all this iconography all over the house, and
everywhere you go, you just feel like you're being watched.

(01:13:48):
The pool itself looked like it hadn't been swiming for
years and years and years. There was a green film
that covered and they were in that they were living
with this pool inside of the house. And Guys, everywhere
I went in that house there were hints of this

(01:14:10):
kind of hyper religiosity everywhere. And I'll never forget I
went into the Sun's bedroom and there was an inverted
crucifix in there. What. Yeah, And so for some reason,
and I just got a chill just talking about this
because I hadn't thought about it in a long time. Well,
you guys mentioned it the other day, and what creeps

(01:14:33):
you out? This creeped me out. It just really stuck
with me. And I've never I've never felt the urgency
to flee a scene. I did that day, and it
took me and I don't know what it was. It
took me a while to get over that case. And
I've seen really bad things before, but there was just
something that kind of stuck in my brain with this

(01:14:57):
case that just you know, still hangs onto this day.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
Sure. Sure, So that feels like the family was very religious,
maybe putting up these altars and opening the Bible to
perhaps protect themselves from the sick o Sun who's you know,
got the upside down cross, who's looking to do bad
things to all of them. And they were accurate.

Speaker 4 (01:15:18):
Well it seems like, I mean, Saint Michael's like the protector.

Speaker 3 (01:15:22):
Protector, yes, yeah, yeah, And at my parish we have
a statue of Saint Michael, yes de Satan under his foot.
You know, he's got the chain in one hand, a.

Speaker 2 (01:15:33):
Sword, the sword right yeah, angel, right, Archangel, I'm wearing
it around my neck right now, are you really look
at you? Angel Michael? Okay?

Speaker 5 (01:15:42):
Pendant that it's a protector. It's supposed to ward off
like evil. I was raised Catholic and that's what I'm
trying to remember. But wow, yeah, I mean that would
that would be creepy. Now in all the pins of
her breathings and.

Speaker 3 (01:15:56):
That was that was really I've never seen anything like it.
And I'm not trying to be disrespectful if they were
so there were so many of them that I'd never
that had never occurred to me, and I often wondered,
could you literally hear her coming down the hallway because
they it looked like one of these like headbands or
something where people you know, in like I think Middle

(01:16:19):
Eastern culture, some of these people you know will do
these oh.

Speaker 7 (01:16:21):
Yeah, and they would jingle.

Speaker 6 (01:16:23):
As you.

Speaker 3 (01:16:26):
Thought about that, and the sound that it would give
off almost like get away from me, Satan or whatever
the case might be, it was quite terrifying. That's something
that stood with me for years and years.

Speaker 4 (01:16:34):
Yeah, no, that's very creepy. Thank you, Joseph. And listen.
If you want to hear more Joseph, listen to his
very good podcast. It's called Body Bags. It's so good.

Speaker 5 (01:16:43):
And stick around because we've got more to dig into.
We're answering your talkbacks and giving you a taste of
what to expect this week. Keep it right here, Agraham tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been
talking true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with
Courtney and Body and Taha, Sam and the boys. And listen.
That was very scary. So if you have other very
very scary stories like that. Feel free to share them
all week. We're doing all things Halloween, if you will.

(01:17:22):
And we have another talk backing lady and gentlemen working
in the neighborhood of podcast.

Speaker 13 (01:17:29):
From last night, and you're speaking about the weight invest
which I feel like is the best thing slice spread.
So starting slow is great advice and not high weight,
because that's just silly. Use it maybe, like you guys,
do you do it? You wear it during a podcast.
Maybe the next step for you all would be during
some tours around the house, vacuuming, oh, doing dishes, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (01:17:54):
By the way, they're doing dishes good because we only
do them either in betweenmmercial or for one or two segments,
because it can be a lot, right, So that's good
advice when you're actually, you know, doing laundry and your dishes.

Speaker 5 (01:18:10):
After you build up a little standa right like after
you build up some which, by the way, I have
to get back to today, I have to or tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:18:18):
Remind me to wear it for at least one segment. Okay,
commercial for low and Steady Baby, Slow and steady. Yeah,
well we're in no rush. We're just you know, we're
just waiting vests our way down to our greatness.

Speaker 4 (01:18:31):
So the next step would be maybe putting it on
the mailbox, right, or it's a great call take a
little bit, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:18:38):
Even just taking it on and off is a little
exertion of energy. And listen, it's going to be like
lifting houses soon enough. So yeah, because there's a small step,
a small step in the right direction, which is all
we could ask for. What's a great tip. Thank you?

Speaker 7 (01:18:52):
I like it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:53):
Keep another one. We have another talk back coming.

Speaker 7 (01:18:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 14 (01:18:55):
Hey, everyone's mark from the Hampshire mark and the sea
stands for maybe I should change it to crime. You guys,
a couple of days ago had this whole fun little
cleaning episode or segment, and I want to tell you
a little cheat sheet. So back in the day, I
used to do car shows, and you use pledge on
the dashboard to make it super shiny without having a DeGreasy.

(01:19:19):
And you can even use it on your dress shoes,
your leather shoes, your high heels, your loafers. Wanted to
pass it along, make it a great rest of your day.
I appreciate you, guys. Change in the world one day
at a time. You guys are incredible. I love you
all and I thank you for what you're doing.

Speaker 5 (01:19:37):
Oh Mark, Mark, you are you are cute beyond.

Speaker 2 (01:19:41):
We're doing our saundry and our waiting, waited best, so clever.
And now the pledge on the sheets on the dashboard.

Speaker 4 (01:19:49):
Are my favorite. The saran wrap in the freezer and
things like.

Speaker 5 (01:19:52):
That, which works, It really works, all right, it does.

Speaker 7 (01:19:56):
I did it. I thought you. I was like, this
is no way.

Speaker 4 (01:19:59):
I thought, yes, sing you.

Speaker 15 (01:20:01):
I was going to say the word the wrong word
by mistake, but I put it in the freezer. The
next day, I'm like, now it never sticks. It works
so easy.

Speaker 7 (01:20:08):
That's a brilliant one. And I'm tomorrow.

Speaker 5 (01:20:11):
But like the pledge on yeah on your shoes, I
never would have done that.

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
Yeah, because you know how you take either it maybe
a wind ax or a wet sponge on your dashboard
or I mean it always kind of use the arm
Offliny smoral ones don't totally work for me. Somehow I
can kind of see it because I'm nice and neurotic
where I can see it in the light and it's
his streaks crazy making.

Speaker 6 (01:20:32):
I will say Stephanie's car is one of the most
hygienic places that you ever want is really.

Speaker 7 (01:20:41):
Yes, Yes, it is pristine.

Speaker 4 (01:20:43):
Mine is a disaster. I have water bottles everywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:20:47):
I just like, just it gets in my nerves. I
start to feel, I know, I'm like one of those
a little feel.

Speaker 4 (01:20:53):
Like when you clean your car, it runs better day.

Speaker 7 (01:20:58):
It's a better day, airs through more. Yes, it's also like.

Speaker 2 (01:21:03):
Showing an appreciation and gratitude for what you have, right,
So like I'm a big believer in making your bed
in the morning and just having respect for your space,
mostly at a gratitude, I guess, and also just I
don't know, I'm one of those that if, like I
have two piles of laundry and like a thousand dishes
in the sink, I can't really concentrate.

Speaker 15 (01:21:23):
Yeah, I'm like you, and I like to come home
to like the made bed.

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):
Everything is so good.

Speaker 7 (01:21:30):
Letter it feels like.

Speaker 9 (01:21:33):
So true.

Speaker 15 (01:21:34):
I had the worst experience in college because my roommate
was the polar opposite. I was a neat freak. Everything
had to be folded in perfect. He was a mess
and they called us felix.

Speaker 7 (01:21:47):
Yeah, and at one point I put a.

Speaker 15 (01:21:48):
Piece of tape down the middle of our I really did,
because I'm like, this is so I almost personate, but
it's so annoying because it gets me heated that his
dirty laundry would pile into my stuff.

Speaker 7 (01:21:59):
So the table tape.

Speaker 4 (01:22:01):
Down the center is why we ride so organized.

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):
I like to make a mess, but then I have to,
like I'm a disaster mess God forbid in a hotel room.
You know, I'm just messy, and I'm messy throughout the day.
I'm like a messy, but then I have to clean
at night.

Speaker 5 (01:22:20):
I have to unpack when I go out or when
I travel. So when I go somewhere and I have
a suitcase and I go to a hotel room, I
have to unpack it.

Speaker 4 (01:22:28):
Guys, or do you guys live out of the suitcase
or do you have to live.

Speaker 2 (01:22:31):
Out of the suitcase. I've done too many shows about
the bacteria in that frame the story and what happens
in those fancy hotel rooms, and let alone the less
fancy or the fancy and all ones that listen.

Speaker 6 (01:22:46):
They get throughout the world just for work.

Speaker 2 (01:22:50):
You know, really scary ones. And I we were, we were,
We've stayed in some really hotels. We did not get
bed bugs.

Speaker 6 (01:22:59):
Is shot my biggest to the point where literally officers
of the law were like, you cannot and should not
be staying there, and we're happy to escort you.

Speaker 2 (01:23:11):
So no unpacking, don't unpack.

Speaker 15 (01:23:15):
I do a hybrid, like if it's a two day thing,
I'll live out of the bag, but if it's like
a week, I'm like, I feel like I need.

Speaker 7 (01:23:21):
To unpack too, and I put my stuff in the
drawer until now.

Speaker 2 (01:23:25):
Maybe I should should be no drawers involved. I think
you should unpack your toilet trees on the sink, yes,
for you know, your own insanity getting ready in the morning.
But I would always put a little towel underneath it,
and I would again, We've also stayed at some real,
real depressing hotels throughout the country in our day too
for work, and some really beautiful ones. But I would

(01:23:47):
put a little something down on the sink top and
then lay out your stuff. You're but I would try
to keep it as tight as you can in the
suitcase unless you bring the.

Speaker 7 (01:23:57):
Better Well that that makes a difference to what about.

Speaker 2 (01:24:01):
Bring my own pillow case everywhere?

Speaker 7 (01:24:02):
Do you do like that that's the pillow case, o case.

Speaker 2 (01:24:06):
That's the whole pillow my back girl, but like a
little case in my luggage. I always keep a pillowcase
in my luggage because again, we've heard too many I've
worked on way too many scary cases where people stay
in hotels and it's you know what, gross. I think
this would be a good talk back.

Speaker 5 (01:24:24):
I want to know what what people bring with them
when they travel, Like that's what do you keep in
your suitcase?

Speaker 12 (01:24:30):
Time?

Speaker 2 (01:24:31):
Like, I can give you that.

Speaker 5 (01:24:32):
I keep like a little USB charger strip in my
suitcase at all times so that I always have it.
It's got like a plug and everything, you know what
I mean, So that might have to worry.

Speaker 7 (01:24:40):
About it, right.

Speaker 5 (01:24:42):
I also keep a little water pick to travel water
pic in my suitcase. It's always in there. I don't
have to worry about it. I have to pack it.

Speaker 4 (01:24:49):
Again, what do you bring? Let us know? Eight at
eight thirty one crime. I hit us on the backs
on the iHeartRadio app.

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):
I do the USB thing. Then I leave it behind
every single time.

Speaker 4 (01:24:58):
Do you relate?

Speaker 2 (01:24:58):
Unbelievable? I should just be in the business of leaving
things behind. And it's also why I try to keep
things as in the bag as possible, less things for
me to forget.

Speaker 7 (01:25:09):
Yeah, Courtney, what do you bring anything? Like any tip
I bring?

Speaker 6 (01:25:13):
Well, first of all, I've had the same backpack, to
my mother's great dismay, I've had the same purple backpack
since I've been sixth grade. And that is no exaggeration.
And so my my carry on.

Speaker 7 (01:25:27):
Is always that.

Speaker 6 (01:25:29):
Love it, which is beat up to hell and from
ll bean, thank you very much with my initials on it.

Speaker 7 (01:25:37):
But what do I bring?

Speaker 6 (01:25:38):
I bring every time too many books, which nothing could
be dumber than that. But I don't travel for like
a day without three books.

Speaker 7 (01:25:45):
I don't read them. I like them, I have.

Speaker 6 (01:25:48):
Them, but I'm kind of like, utaha, if it's short,
I'll live out of the bag.

Speaker 7 (01:25:54):
Otherwise I'll make a point and like really move in
in the whole thing.

Speaker 6 (01:26:00):
And now I'm all gonna be I'm like itching right
now thinking about that buzzy corner of.

Speaker 2 (01:26:04):
That just did the ditty case you know where we
heard all about the freak offs happening these's luxury hotels
that they had to shut the rooms down for service
because there was so much wetness in drugs. You know,
that is not a unique scenario, So think about that

(01:26:24):
every time you take your stuff out.

Speaker 15 (01:26:26):
That's a good point when I'm thinking the polish, well,
they polished it so nicely, but it's probably baby well.

Speaker 2 (01:26:31):
They probably did. And I'm not suggesting that they're not
cleaning the rooms, of course, but just think about just
the you know, it's a lot of people to keep
up with. You know, you want the bathroom real clean
and stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:26:41):
Obviously, when I went to Malaysia, I was there for
almost two months, and we would travel we traveled around
the country filming for the filming the show, and we
would stay at a hotel like every three or four days.
And so I had these two massive suitcases with almost
stuff in it and not unpacked. Would I mean, I

(01:27:01):
just can't imagine. I would pack and then I would
repack that I would pack and I would repack well
constantly when I was there. I can't imagine not unpacking.

Speaker 2 (01:27:10):
I just will. That's extended extended stay. So my vote
on that would be different. Well, we only stayed at
the hotels for like three days and then we would
go to another Oh gotcha, Yeah, and I was still
unpack not both my suitcases, but like one of them.
My hard no, and that I disagree, and you shouldn't
put your suitcase on the floor and leave it open.

Speaker 4 (01:27:28):
I never do that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
I never do that. You may bring home a bug.
Here's the topic. More tips.

Speaker 7 (01:27:36):
Let's go back to the plus.

Speaker 5 (01:27:39):
Right now.

Speaker 2 (01:27:40):
And by the way, you can't bring nutrigena wipes, the
ones that I use them every night, even when we're talking.
We're like taking her makeup off. You know, the ones
in the blue packets. I feel like everybody had. I
love those if you're a woman. Yeah, and like, no,
they've been like recalled because they're causing all kinds of
potential skin situations.

Speaker 7 (01:27:58):
Yeah, I'm understanding.

Speaker 6 (01:28:00):
It's the recall is across four states.

Speaker 5 (01:28:04):
Oh really, hopefully is it Nevada one of them? Please
say now, Please say now.

Speaker 7 (01:28:07):
Please Texas.

Speaker 6 (01:28:09):
This is just what I'm reading now, Texas, South Carolina, Georgia,
and Florida.

Speaker 7 (01:28:14):
Yes, okay, we're good. I'm good.

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
I would how do they really know this?

Speaker 5 (01:28:19):
If I don't get to have my wipe and my medicube,
I'm going to be upset, Like.

Speaker 15 (01:28:23):
I have that everyone's self care Sunday Hue medicube.

Speaker 5 (01:28:28):
Yes, medicube is like Korean skincare and I'm obsessed with
it and I swear to God, it's working. I got
like that wand and it has like all kinds of lights.
It does like the red like for like dark ooth,
it's journey. We're activating it. I have the red light.

Speaker 2 (01:28:43):
In your skin.

Speaker 4 (01:28:44):
Does really By the way, you're not sponsored regretted.

Speaker 2 (01:28:48):
Anybody now, Netflix, not even sure. By the way, we
should rethink this. I know no way to bests have
been participating in our nothing.

Speaker 5 (01:29:00):
But that's the electroplaning. I can't I can't remember. You
have to look it up. It's these little wands that
Medicube makes, and it basically you put it on blue
or red. I put it on blue because that's what
I need more of. And then you put the serums
and the lotions and all that on and it absorbs
into your skin faster and you to apply the serum.

(01:29:23):
And I do it twice. I do it in the
morning and I do it at night. And I'm not kidding.
I've only want you guys were here when I got this,
it was like two weeks ago. How glowy I am?

Speaker 7 (01:29:31):
You really are?

Speaker 15 (01:29:33):
Yeah, it's even since I just first met you. Like,
it's good, your skin is It's really good.

Speaker 7 (01:29:38):
God, I'm gonna need that link.

Speaker 2 (01:29:40):
I must that link.

Speaker 5 (01:29:42):
Also, I'll say, now this is the mini, I want
the pro, but the pro is like two hundred dollars
and I don't have that kind of money.

Speaker 4 (01:29:48):
This was like sixty bucks.

Speaker 7 (01:29:49):
Okay, I like it all right?

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
What is your skincare regime?

Speaker 7 (01:29:53):
Now it's going to feel like a true ad.

Speaker 15 (01:29:56):
But I actually don't really do a lot like I
like to exfoliate, and then I try to do it
every other day. You're supposed to do it less than that.
But something it feels cleaner when I foliate. It does,
and I just now I feel like I add I
just got into this new serum product.

Speaker 2 (01:30:13):
What is it?

Speaker 7 (01:30:14):
I feel like? But no, it's.

Speaker 15 (01:30:15):
Actually in general, I've been told you should start using
a serum underneath to moisturize.

Speaker 7 (01:30:22):
I have never done that. I always just use a moisturizer.

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):
I'm a moisturizer. Wait, what is the serum?

Speaker 7 (01:30:27):
I realize now this one. I'm tired of plugging other people.

Speaker 2 (01:30:31):
I guess we should we should ask for the ad sale,
I suppose, But.

Speaker 7 (01:30:36):
This one is doctor Moretta. I've never heard of that one.

Speaker 4 (01:30:39):
But I like molecules too, and it's real cheap.

Speaker 2 (01:30:42):
That's molecules.

Speaker 4 (01:30:43):
That's really good one.

Speaker 15 (01:30:44):
But I did something else to treat myself for self
care that actually I got myself a chocolate chip cookie.

Speaker 2 (01:30:53):
Yes, I broke into the Halloween candy. I hide it
for myself and then I'm like, actually, I know.

Speaker 7 (01:30:59):
Who know a secret?

Speaker 2 (01:31:02):
Wait, I'm the one that actually knows the answer.

Speaker 6 (01:31:05):
Here.

Speaker 2 (01:31:06):
Those little mini reeses are so good.

Speaker 7 (01:31:09):
I love all the candies. The best one that's.

Speaker 5 (01:31:13):
That was the one I always would dig through from
the bag of candy, like even my nieces like, did
you get any races?

Speaker 4 (01:31:20):
Yeah, they want to out a little bit.

Speaker 6 (01:31:22):
Nobody wants a stim the freezer, and nobody wants the
popcorn balls, right, nobody wants that?

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):
Or the butterscotch. What is it the worn.

Speaker 6 (01:31:33):
Welches like you get at your grandparents' house? Is that
what you talk about, Stephanie?

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):
What they call it again?

Speaker 7 (01:31:40):
Yes, they're like the butter scotch, the butter scotch.

Speaker 2 (01:31:42):
Things the way.

Speaker 7 (01:31:45):
I love.

Speaker 2 (01:31:46):
They're actually quite delicious, So it's not a dig on Werthers.
In the right moment. They do hit the spot when
you're leaving the dentists, for example, but like not on Halloween.
Come on, now we're talking quick.

Speaker 7 (01:31:59):
Talkers.

Speaker 2 (01:32:00):
I like an almond joy, but you know I like
I love enjoy.

Speaker 15 (01:32:04):
Yeah, you know, coconut into the coconut noo.

Speaker 7 (01:32:09):
Yes, you and I court we would probably the best.

Speaker 4 (01:32:12):
Frozen yogurt flavor are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (01:32:14):
The coconut is delicious.

Speaker 7 (01:32:16):
If I don't enjoy it either, people love it. I know.

Speaker 4 (01:32:20):
Yeah, it's my favorite, not his favorite.

Speaker 2 (01:32:23):
Hasn't clean shoes. My heels are about to get a
real shine. Holidays kind of flew by off the rails
just in time. We listen, everybody. We have a big
week ahead, so make sure you tune in tomorrow ed.
We're going to have you back on Monday because we
are talking about the recent or vest arrests at the
Louver and that and much much more true crime tonight.

(01:32:46):
Stay safe v from one Bye bye