Who is Austin Robert Drummond? A look at the violent history of the man authorities are seeking in connection with an alleged quadruple homicide in Tennessee. District Attorney Alan Martin joins to answer questions about the James Corbett murder case featured in Netflix’s A Deadly American Marriage. Plus: headlines on the Menendez brothers and Diddy, and an in-depth look at the Ken and Barbie killings that have haunted Canada for decades.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
true crime all the time. It is Monday, it is
August fourth. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I am joined as always
by crime analyst Body Move In, and our beloved co
host Stephanie is out this evening. But do not worry,
because we've got a stacked night. A headlines for you.
(00:42):
The recent Netflix documentary it has been blowing up. It's
called A Deadly American Marriage, and it tells this story
of James Corbett. He's a man who was brutally beaten
to death by his wife and father in law. Well,
tonight we're going to be joined by a really, really
special guest who worked closely on the case and was
featured on the Dock. Also, one of Ditty's victims has
(01:05):
revealed her identity and she's spoken out about his potential bail,
So we're going to get to that, and later we're
going to talk about this story of the Ken and
Barbie killings. Listen. It's a story it's haunted Canada for years.
Body's an expert, am a novice will see where you
land in the mix. But before we get into even
(01:27):
our first story, let's go to a voicemail.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Hello, this is Benjamin Smith and I was calling about
the Devil's Bin murder. The woman who was cutting his
hair did an interview online. I was wandering it to
confine to hand play it online.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
It's good.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Thank you so much. I'll have a bless one.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Thank you so much for that voicemail. And listen. The
guys in the studio, Adam and Sam actually tipped us
off to it earlier, so we'll do better than listening online.
And everyone's going to be able to listen. And you're
what we're about to hear is hair stylist Adrianna Ruiz,
(02:07):
and she's recounting the story to local CBS news affiliate
five News in Arkansas.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
I don't know how to describe it. It he like
I saw him.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
His eyes just.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Looked sunken, pretty kind of like soulless. It's what I
could describe.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Well.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
I was about five minutes into the haircut when a
man pulled up and, uh, asking about whose car that
was that was outside, and that's when he would tell him,
you know, I believe this is your car. And he
didn't really he just stood quiet. I guess he felt
kind of scared. As soon as I saw the stickers
(02:47):
of you know, the evidence and stuff, I knew something
as wrong and I asked if it was really it
could be related to the Devil'ston incident, and they said
it could have.
Speaker 6 (02:57):
Been scary and he he does look he looks demonic
his eyes, he looks demonic. And I don't say that,
you know, he is very scary looking. No, agreed, I
mean mean is what comes to me. I mean he
just looks so mean. I'm not somebody I expect to
be a fourth grade teacher.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
No, yeah, I mean good grief like hands and out
little things at apple sauce looking like that. Absolutely, it's crazy.
And I got to say this, this woman who you know,
did the interview and was just going about her day
doing her job. Imagine that. And then the authority comes
in and they have evidence bags and she knows the
(03:39):
case because it's been everywhere.
Speaker 6 (03:41):
Yeah, I guess they were like sweeping up the hair
that had fallen onto the floor. From the haircut for evidence.
It kind of freaked her out. Yeah, of course it would.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
You know, I had a thought because when we were
talking yesterday with Joseph and we I believe it was
just yesterday that he was caught, I think, and and
you know, my thought was, and he has the wherewithal
to say, oh, I'm going to go get my hair
done after I've done this. I think it's honestly, oh okay, yeah,
but yeah, you know, still shortly said the words recently.
(04:12):
But maybe because of that, I'm like, oh, maybe he's staying,
I don't know, in a motel or something and didn't
want to leave his hair someplace.
Speaker 6 (04:20):
So maybe I think he was trying to change his
appearance a little bit and that. Yeah, and yeah, that's
what I think. And I was getting ready to start
the school year too. He was supposed to start this week.
Oh yeah, his new job teaching. Yeah, good grief.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Well, in any case, thank you for the voicemail. Thank you,
And yeah, listen, We've also been following the ongoing man hunt.
This is for the suspect in the alleged quadruple homicide.
It recently took place in Tennessee. So body can you
kind of catch us all up to speed, man. I
have been monitoring this all day long. I have been
(04:57):
f fiving on my you know, refreshing my browser. Has
he been arrested yet? Has he been arrested yet?
Speaker 6 (05:02):
Today the reward for Austin Robert Drummond has increased to
thirty thousand dollars and there has been a third and
fourth arrest in connection. Now this is in connection to
the quadruple homicide that occurred in Tennessee. Again, he is
on the run and a manhunt is has ensued and
(05:23):
it continues on Tuesday, July twenty ninth. Just to bring
everybody up to speed. On Tuesday July twenty ninth, a
seven month old baby was found abandoned in like a
driveway front yard area in Dyer County, Tennessee, Okay. Hours later,
four relatives, including the child's father, mother, uncle, and grandmother
(05:46):
were found murdered in nearby Lake County. It's about twenty
minutes away. All four victims. They released us today. By
the way, all four victims died from a parent gunshot wounds.
So they found four bodies. It was it's described as
being like in the woods, and these four bodies belong
to family members of the baby that was abandoned. So
(06:09):
they connected this guy, Austin Robert Drummond to that murder,
and he has been on the run ever since. Records
show you, guys, he has a super lengthy criminal history.
He was allegedly a member of the Vice Lord Street gang.
And get this, he's out on bond. He's out on bond.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
What is hold on? What does out on bond? I
know what out on parole means? What what's bond?
Speaker 6 (06:37):
Okay, let me go into his criminal history and I'll
get it because it's gonna explain why he's out on bond.
So right now, authorities are scouring a wooded area like
literally right now near private University in Jackson, Tennessee, on
Monday afternoon. Is part of the investigation into the subject. Again,
he's twenty eight years old, Austin Robert Drummond. A law
(07:00):
enforcement official said they're still looking for him. So here's
some of the news from today. Two additional sussects have
been arrested, so four in total have been arrested. We're
still looking for Austin. He's like the main character we're
looking right, all right, So Tanaka Brown twenty nine, was
arrested Friday and he's been charged with accessory after the
(07:20):
fact to first degree murder and tampering with evidence. Giovanki Thomas,
also twenty nine, also from Jacksonville, Tennessee. Jackson I'm sorry, Jackson, Tennessee.
Sorry Jacksonville, Florida. I did not mean to throw you
in there. Giovanki Thomas, he is twenty nine, and he
was arrested Saturday with accessory after the fact of first
(07:41):
degree murder. Now, he was already in jail on unrelated charges,
so he's being transferred to Lake County Jail for arraement
on the new charges. Wait, he was in prison and
he was in jail. It was like failure to appear.
It was unrelated charges. Now, the two people that arrested
today uh Saunders twenty three, she was arrested today and
(08:04):
charged with accessory after the fact and Brandon Powell charged
with possession of scheduled six drugs and criminal conspiracy. So
they've got some different charges, but the commonality is that
it's all sort of accessory after the fact. So they
must have helped him tamper with evidence, like maybe taking
(08:24):
the gun cleaning his car, maybe even dropping that baby off.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Well, someone had to drop the baby. The baby car
was twenty five minutes away.
Speaker 6 (08:33):
Twenty five minutes away, and apparently there were two cars
that had to be driven, so maybe driving the car.
They the police have not stated yet what exactly tampering
with evidence and accessory after the fact means.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yet, we don't know.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
Now. Austin, though, has a really, really really lengthy criminal history.
So it started when he was young, obviously, and you
know a lot of things that these always do. But
he was when he was twenty eleven, he was just
a teenager. He pled guilty to evading arrest and attempted burglary.
He received twenty four hours of community service. Easy enough, right,
easy enough?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I mean it doesn't sound like it's certainly that's pretty
start though. Yeah, that's right. Well, listen, this is true
Crime Tonight. We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here
with the Brilliant Body move In. We're talking about the
recent quadruple homicide in Tennessee. We want to hear your
thoughts and we want to hear from you on this
or really any cases that are top of your brain.
(09:29):
Give us a call. We're at eighty eight three one crime.
So okay, he starts with.
Speaker 6 (09:34):
He starts in twenty thousand, Yeah, and that's you know, okay.
So two years later, he's seventeen years old, all right,
twenty thirteen, he walked into like a convenience door, walked
behind the register in a gas station. I'm sorry, I said,
communion store, pointed a pistol at the clerk demanded she
opened the cash register, and he took the cash was
like forty four dollars inside. But a jury found him
guilty of this.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
All right.
Speaker 6 (09:55):
While he was in jail for that crime, he was
on the phone with this father and he started threatening
the juries, like the juror members, they're going to regret this,
and I'm going to get out soon, and YadA, YadA, YadA.
So he got convicted in twenty fifteen to thirteen counts
of retaliation, which gave him a lengthy sentence.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
And were those thirteen counts for each one of the jurys.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
Who Yeah, So while he's okay, so now he's got
this extended sentence. He's been given thirteen years now in
the pen. All right, So in twenty twenty, now this
is seven years later, he's up for parole and the
DA wrote a letter and called him a dangerous felony
(10:42):
offender and confirmed member of the vice. Lords continued the
letter and said that Drummond made threats against the jurors,
which of course we already know, and the robbery, and
said he was not fit to rejoin society. So he
was denied parole. While he was at this parole hearing,
they went over all the his infractions. At the time,
he had more than two dozen disciplinary issues in prison,
(11:06):
including possession of a deadly weapon, assault, refusing a drug test,
and gang activity. Now, he was released on September one
of twenty twenty four, so pretty recently, right well, that
week he got re arrested for what literally now, one
report is saying the same day he got arrested, And
(11:28):
I looked at the report and it does say September first,
but I couldn't cooberate it anywhere else, so I didn't
want to repeat it. But the same week, I think
it's safe to say the same week he was released.
He was apprehended on gun, drug and contraband charges. Three
months later in December, so just a few months ago
at this point, eight months ago, he was brought up
(11:51):
on additional charges from when he was in prison. So
while he was in prison for the first thirteen years,
he got arrested again for threatening and deadly use of
deadly force tempted murder. But when he got arraigned, he
posted bond, a thirty thousand dollars bond. He got out
(12:14):
and that's why he's out on bond. Oh my gosh. Yeah,
it's pretty extensive.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
That's so, I know.
Speaker 6 (12:21):
So he's a career criminal. He's very dangerous. He's connected
to these vice lords and I don't know for sure,
but it's being kind of talked about that the people
that he's in connection with that have been arrested, the
four people have also got connections with this vice lord's game.
And perhaps Austin is like a higher ranking member and
(12:43):
is able to kind of boss these people around and
pull the strings and pull the strings, and they've all
got like drug charges and things like that, and the
vice lords are known for running drugs. All right, well, listen,
we will be staying on top of this. As soon
as the main suspect is in custody, we will let
you know and listen, stay with us because Coming up
right after the break, we're going to have District Attorney
(13:05):
Alan Martin. He's from Netflix's documentary A Deadly American Marriage,
and we're going to also follow up on Eric Menendez's
health scare. Keep it Here True Crime Tonight. This is
(13:28):
Your Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk true crime
all the time. Later in the show, we're going to
be talking about what authorities have revealed about the suspect
in the recent Montana shooting and why killer Carla Homoka
is considered Canada's most hated woman. But first we're going
to be getting into a case that has sparked international
outrage for over a decade, the murder of James Corbett.
(13:52):
We're so lucky enough to be able to have all
of our questions on this super layered case answered by
someone super close to it. And you can't get any
clothes to this case than Our guest joining us is
Alan Martin. He is the senior Assistant District Attorney in Lexington,
North Carolina, and the prosecutor of Molly and Thomas Martin
(14:12):
in the murder of James Corbett. You may know him
or the case from the recently released Netflix documentary A
Deadly American Marriage. Welcome, Alan, thank you so much for
being here. Courtney, Before we dive into the discussion with Alan,
can you just give us like an overview of the
case for people who might not be aware.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, for sure. So Netflix is a Deadly American Marriage.
It tells the story of Jason Corbett. So he was
brutally killed in twenty fifteen by his wife and his
father in law. So that's not in dispute or unless
Allan tells us differently. And what the documentary does is
shows really conflicting narratives between the killer's claims of self
(14:53):
defense and then the family's allegation that Corbett, the victim,
was murdered in cold bla blood as part of a
plot for custody of his children. So initially the case
resulted in murder convictions, but later it led to a
plea deal for manslaughter, and it sparked absolute outrage and
(15:13):
renewed scrutiny from the public and victim Jason's family. So
once again, Alan, welcome, how are you this evening?
Speaker 7 (15:22):
Very well, thank you for asking.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
We're thrilled to have you and listen. This was such
a long and convoluted case how and when did you
come into this case?
Speaker 7 (15:33):
Our office got involved shortly after it happened in July
twenty fifteen. This is the kind of case that our
investigators with the Davidson County Sheriff's Office will work with
us on prior to charges and early in the investigation
so that we're all on the same page and focusing
(15:54):
on the same things understood. And then quickly after it happened,
got it.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
And then did you follow it along? How long were
you with the case?
Speaker 7 (16:04):
I was on the case relatively early and then was
involved with it all the way until its conclusion, with
the adjudication of the plea arrangement, after the trial and
the reversals on appeal.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
Wow, So had you went through the whole appeal process
and like everything from start to finish, that must have
been exhausting.
Speaker 7 (16:26):
So our office handled the trial and then after the
appeal we handled the retrial which led to the plea arrangement.
In North Carolina, the Attorney General's Office handles the appell
a work at Court of Appeals and State Supreme Court,
so we didn't have to do that work, but we
were obviously very interested and involved in paying attention to
(16:49):
what was happening, you know.
Speaker 6 (16:50):
In the documentary, it's for those that don't know Thomas Martin,
he's one of the accused. He's a former FBI agent,
and the documentary does a really good job of sort
of making it seem that he was kind of above board.
He worked it with the FBI his whole life. He
was sort of a stand up citizen. How did his
(17:10):
FBI background influence how you approached investigating him or did it?
Speaker 7 (17:15):
So crimes of violence like this one, you will sometimes
have people who have spotty criminal histories or violent backgrounds,
but there's an entire separate set of cases of this
kind of violence where no one involved has any criminal
history whatsoever. It is unusual to have a retired law
(17:38):
enforcement officer and especially FBI who's a suspect in this
kind of a case and a homicide, but it's not
necessarily that unusual to have someone charged with murder who
has no previous criminal history. It's not necessarily a recidivous
crime like you often see with property crimes or drug crimes.
Speaker 6 (17:56):
Okay, so not much different, but you kind of know
he knows the system a little bit, so that had
to like, you know, sort of I guess maybe more
for the police, right, like they in their interview tactics
and whatnot. They probably had to have their guard up
a little bit, I would imagine, But wow, that's pretty interesting.
Speaker 7 (18:14):
They did have to approach the interview with him with
care and with an understanding that you know, he had
sat on the other side of the table many times before.
He knows the d that's right. It called from very
careful preparation for his cross examination, since it was clear
to us before trial that he was going to testify
and Molly was not. And Greg Brown, who was one
(18:36):
of the two attorneys that worked with me on the trial,
handled his cross examination and did a wonderful job of
drawing out weaknesses in what Tom had to say and
allowing him to cast himself in an unfavorable light in
front of you.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
So I didn't realize that Mollie did not take the stand.
Somehow that fact escaped me and for people who perhaps
didn't see the documentary yet, because you have to Mollie
was the wife of the victim, just letting the audience know. Alan,
So do you have a thought as to why she
didn't take the stand?
Speaker 7 (19:13):
My speculation is that cross examination was going to be
very difficult for her. There were a number of instances,
occasions prior to the killing when we had clear demoscul
examples of her having been untruthful in a very exaggerated
(19:38):
or very black and white kind of way, and things
unrelated to the killing of Jason, But they were the
kinds of things that when you get on the stand
and your credibility is issued, is that issue. She was
going to have a lot of difficulty in coming off
as a credible person. There were just there were facts
that were going to be hard for her to work with.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
Right.
Speaker 7 (20:00):
Yeah, I'm not ever privy to the defense thinking. I
know they're her attorneys and her father's attorneys worked closely together.
Our guests is that they thought Tom would be able
to handle the explanation of what had happened that night,
and they were hopeful that his testimony would be sufficient
(20:22):
to convince the jury that this was a self defense
case and not a malice murder case.
Speaker 6 (20:27):
And he seems like a stronger character to do that.
This is your crime. Tonight on iHeartRadio, i'mbody Moving here
with Courtney Armstrong and we are joined by North Carolina
District Attorney Alan Martin, we've been talking about the murder
of James Corbett and the documentary about that called The
American what's it called again? I'm so sorry for had
the name of it already and I just watched it
Deadly American Marriage.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yes, yes, thank you.
Speaker 6 (20:49):
Yeah, it's really good and you know it's kind of short,
it's only like an hour and forty five minutes. If
you haven't watched it, I highly suggest you do. This
is my cello Netflix Documentaries star Alan Martin. So give
us a call at eighty eight thirty one crime or
hit us on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Alan.
Speaker 6 (21:07):
So, Molly's mom Sharon, This, here's what happened you guys.
If you haven't watched the documentary again, you have to
go watch it. Her parents had come to visit and
while they were sleeping, Molly's mom is in the basement
and she says she's woken up to a ruckus and
then she goes back to sleep in the basement. Alan,
did that raise any red flags with you guys?
Speaker 7 (21:27):
Yes, that raised a whole field of red flags.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (21:32):
The very little narrative we got was that she and
her husband Tom were in a guest room downstairs underneath
the master bedroom where the killing took place. They woke
up to the ruckus that Tom walked out the door,
told her to stay there, picked up a little legal
emin in baseball bat that they happened to have brought
(21:54):
with them for that visit, and walked upstairs and that
then shared and stayed in the room and fell back
to sleep. And then some time later, this was a
there was a basement, a main floor, and a second floor.
After the killing and police officers had come and ems
had come, there was an officer who went upstairs, got
(22:17):
the children out of bed, covered their faces, took them
down to the basement to put them with their grandmother
or with sharon stepgrandmother, so that they wouldn't wander into
the crime scene. And she, the officer took them downstairs, said,
you know, he knocked and opened the door, and she
was standing there and said, is everyone okay?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
And he's a little mettle kids too.
Speaker 7 (22:38):
Yeah, these are elementary school children.
Speaker 6 (22:40):
These are very little kids.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (22:43):
And his crime scene was super violent, it was, yeah, and.
Speaker 7 (22:46):
It would have it would have been very noisy. And
we did not consider it remotely credible that she had
stayed downstairs and not heard anything else and been able
to go back to sleep. But since her husband was
on trial, you cannot compel a way to get testimony
against her husband, and vice versa, And so we couldn't
interview her, we couldn't follow up with her, and we
(23:08):
could not put her on the stand to try to
get any more information out of her. But yes, that
struck us as being really really unusual and highly suspicious.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
So I didn't realize this. You can't even compel someone.
I understood the fact that you can't compel a spouse
to testify against their spouse on the stand, but that
extends to even being interviewed.
Speaker 7 (23:33):
Well, we could ask her to talk to us about
anything that wasn't privileged communication, but no person is ever
under an obligation to talk to us, and it was
it was ebundantly clear from the circumstances that she was
not going to talk to us any further. So she
was sort of and she expected herself out to I
don't know anything, I didn't see anything, I didn't hear anything.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
I was sleeping.
Speaker 8 (23:55):
Wow.
Speaker 7 (23:55):
And the reason that's so suspicious, and this was part
of the argument to the jury, one person can see
or participate in an event and then fabricate a narrative
about it and sort of tell a different story, and
may be able, under follow up questioning, be able to
weave a consistent narrative. It's hard, but it's possible with
(24:19):
two people. It's incredibly more difficult once you get separated,
because as follow up questions come, you don't know what
the other person's going to say. Unless you're both telling
the truth. That's right, I don't know what the other
person's going to say, and so they diverge with people,
it becomes impossible.
Speaker 6 (24:37):
Well, coming up next, we have more with District Attorney
Alan Martin on A Deadly American Marriage. Stay right here
on True Crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Be right back. So we are talking about Netflix A
Deadly American Marriage. It's a documentary that was released back
in May. It tells the story of Jason Corbett. He's
(25:08):
a man who was brutally killed by his wife and
father in law back in twenty fifteen. This documentary shows
conflicting narratives between the killer's claims of self defense and
the victim's family's allegations that the victim was murdered in fact,
in cold blood and it was part of a plot
for custody of his children. It's really complex, it's really
(25:31):
worth the watch, and we are thrilled to be back
with Lexington. North Carolina District Attorney Alan Martin. He's talking
about this case and he is the prosecutor, so no
one knows it better. And he was also featured on
the doc and really helps walk you. He's so good
in the documentary to really, Alan, you are so good, fabulous, So.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
Thank you for being back.
Speaker 7 (25:55):
Sure, so, can.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
You lay the stage a little bit for anyone who
hasn't watched the doc in terms of geography, because the
players in this story half for in Ireland, half for here.
Can you just give sort of a brief overview of
what that was?
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Sure?
Speaker 7 (26:13):
So, Jason was an irishman, born and raised in All
of his family lived in Ireland. He was married and
had two children and his wife. Their mother passed away
just a few weeks after the youngest child had passed
away or had been born. Then Molly came into their
(26:37):
lives as a sort of a payer. She grew up
in Tennessee and had gone to Ireland having made a
connection with them to provide childcare. Jason worked at an
industrial facility there they developed a relationship. Subsequently moved to
the United States. His company had a plant near Winston Salem,
(27:00):
North Carolina, which is in central North Carolina and is
close to Davidson County, and they lived in a community
that's a commuter neighborhood to Winston Salem, and her parents
then still lived in eastern Tennessee.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Got it Okay? Thank you for sort of laying that out. Yeah,
it's a complicated situation. And what about legally? Were there
complications on the legal end of things or because the
victim and the two people who are on trial were
all here in the United States, was that not that
big a complication.
Speaker 7 (27:37):
Yeah, it was not. It might have been different if
the defendants had been from another country and rather than
the victim being from another country. But we had full
support of all of Jason's family in Ireland and the
Irish government Irish Consulate would check in occasionally to tech
status and see if there's anything that we could do,
so we didn't have a government that was interfering on
(27:59):
behalf of it. Defendant who was there national like you
could have it. Those were reversed.
Speaker 6 (28:04):
I wish that would have been made more clear in
the documentary only because it seemed like there was a
lot of Ireland versus the United States kind of things
happening in the documentary. You know that it seemed like
a lot of Irish citizens were really enraged at the
fact that they, you know, won this appeal and you know,
the America wasn't doing justice to their their citizen. I
(28:25):
kind of wish that would have been made more clear
that actually there was a lot of support there.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
But I digress.
Speaker 6 (28:30):
So this this you know what I mean though, Like like,
if you guys had the support, I kind of wish
they would have put it in there. But I know
how it is. When they made these documentaries, you don't
really have a choice. Yes, freaking producers, right exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
I know how it is. Right. These these guys.
Speaker 7 (28:46):
We the people we worked with were wonderful and very
thorough and they did a lot of fact checking to
make sure that everything that they aired was factual and provable.
I was very impressed with them.
Speaker 6 (28:58):
You know, it's such a good doctor memory and it's
and I want to everybody out there that hasn't seen it,
it's really digestible. It's not very long, it's not like
six different parts. You don't have to commit a week
to watching this. You could sit down in an under
two hours get the whole story. And it is fascinating.
And in the documentary they show the crime scene photos
(29:20):
and in these this this crime scene is incredibly violent.
Jason was beat with a bat and you can imagine,
you know, if you close your eyes and imagine it,
how horrific this crime scene was. What was the level
of vince demonstrated in the crime scene of this case,
and what did it tell you about the case as
a whole.
Speaker 7 (29:41):
The violence that was inflicted on Jason was extraordinary, right,
and devastating. One big aspect of the case was that,
on the other hand, Tom Martin's and Molly Martin's Corbett
essentially had no injuries. And this was there was We
had a blood spatter expert who worked on this case
(30:02):
and through the bedroom a small hallway to the master bath.
In the master bath, you know, there were dozens of
what he could identify as blood events that had created
various spatter patterns, and they went from floor to ceiling
and on every wall. And the autopsy of Jason was
(30:27):
powerful information. His skull was crushed and the pathologists could
not describe the number of injuries that had called skull
fractures because they began to overlap. And so he was
able to give up a minimum number, but could not
give a maximum number because it was so extensive.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, overlapping. It's a wild amount of violence. Well, listen,
this is true crime tonight and body move and and
I are here with District Attorney Alan Martin. We're talking
about the murder of James Corbett and the documentary based
on that at Deadly American Marriage. If you have questions
for Alan, give us a call. We're at eighty eight
(31:09):
three one crime. So, Alan, I did want to ask you.
First of all, I did not realize that grandpa or
the stepfather of the victim brought the little league, happened
to bring the little league back with him. What was
the prosecution's theory between the bat and then the cinder
block rock that was mentioned, How does that come into play?
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Right?
Speaker 7 (31:32):
So Tom was Jason's father in law, step grandfather to
the children. Right, So they had a story, you know,
sort of related to family history and irrelevant circumstances to
explain why they had brought a little League aluminum all
back with them, as it had been another family member's bat,
and bringing it to the Jason son. There was another
(31:56):
story about why Molly would have had a concrete paver
in the bedroom. In the narrative that Tom gave him
too a lesser extent. Molly he used the ball bat,
and she had admitted having hit Jason at least once
in the head with the concrete paver, and they presented
(32:17):
themselves as sort of the weapons of opportunity as opposed
to like a pre planned We never had any notion
that Molly had called her parents and said, hey, Dad,
I need you to come down and help me kill Jason.
There was not you know, she had some motivation maybe
to create an explosive scene while her parents were visiting,
(32:39):
so that she could maybe get a domestic blarge protective
order and try to get custody because Jason had not
allowed her to adopt the children, and there is documentation
that she wanted to end the marriage but keep custody
of the children. Our theory was that she was trying
to create an exploit an event that would help her
(33:02):
get custody without necessarily killing him. Right, We don't have
any indication that sort of before that night there was
a plot or a premeditated plan between her and her
father to do this. But our theory was more that
she created a situation that her father was in and
then that situation got out of hand.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, she, I mean the lies, this woman, the woman
who Molly pretending that she was best friends with his
first wife, with the victim's first wife. She was wild.
But here's Mama's burning question. And it's such a small thing,
but I can't get it out of my mind. The
thing that stuck out to me the single most out
(33:44):
of this whole documentary was when Molly's father, so he
was the co perpetrator of killing John Corbett, He said
that he had just oh idly, he and his wife
idly took the four hour drive to go see his
daughter and her family. But then it later came out
(34:04):
that that night that he had canceled a dinner with
his boss. Was that a big deal in court? Or
can you tell me? Is there anything I missed about that?
Because it drives me nuts.
Speaker 7 (34:15):
It was one more little thing. It wasn't anything that
tips the scales one way or the other. That sort
of thing and I want to go back one sec
just since we're engaged in a conversation and you use
the word liar, and that's something that when, particularly when
we're in court, we have to be careful labeling a defendant.
That way, we can say, on this occasion, there's evidence
they didn't tell the truth, and we can say things
(34:36):
like this person has a complicated relationship with the truth.
But we can't go into court and say to a jury,
this person's a liar, therefore you should convict them of murder. Right,
But certainly when you're talking about what they said happened,
you know, those types of situations where they say one
thing and there's demonstrable evidence that that's not entirely true,
(34:59):
that certainly can become powerful in front of the jury.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Right, And that is a really good thing to point
out of what can you know, what has to be
said in court versus the court of.
Speaker 6 (35:10):
Publish And no, I kind of want to write that
one down. A complicated relationship with the truth. I really
like that.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I've had a lot of ex boyfriend.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
It's such a media it's such a professional way of saying, hey, listen,
you're liar, liar, pants on.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Fire, well, Alan, you are not a liar, liar pants
on fire, but you are the greatest explainer of this
story and we were so grateful to have you on
our show. And listen, everyone should go out immediately watch
a deadly American marriage.
Speaker 6 (35:38):
Later in the show, I'm going to be telling you
the story of Paul Bernardo and Carla Holmoka, and I'm
going to give you a little bit of insight into
how I kind of started learning about this case time.
They are Canada's most hated couple. And don't forget Tomorrow,
I'm so excited, is talk back Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Now.
Speaker 6 (35:55):
We always listen to your talkbacks, like we the first
thing we say, right Courtney, how many talk backs do
we have?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, we always listen.
Speaker 6 (36:05):
But Tomorrow Tuesday is when we dedicate, you know, more
time to the show to hear your talkbacks. And speaking
of which we have one right now, let's go to
that talkback.
Speaker 9 (36:13):
Hey, ladies, this is still from Tampa, just listening to
the last night's show, talking about what BK was potentially
a folding as he was walking out when Dylan saw him.
My speculation is that maybe it was the k bar
knife sharpener. I'm not sure if you guys have looked
that up yet, and it's been documented that he purchased
one at the time that he got the knife in
(36:33):
the sheep, and it kind of resembles a thin looking
vacuum system. Just wondering if you guys had looked at that.
Speaker 6 (36:41):
Yes, yes, yes, thank you for that talkback. I could
talk about this for six hours. So I looked up
the knife sharpeners and I don't know what model he bought,
but if you just google knife sharpener, there's two different
kinds that I thought might be something that he was carrying.
One is I think it's made by Tumbler and it
(37:01):
looks like a little drum.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (37:03):
Now Dylan describes this bulge and I'm like, okay, maybe
that's it. But then she describes it as an arrow
shaped object or a vacuum type object. Now there's the
other kind of knife sharpeners are like ten ninety nine
at Walmart and they kind of look like a little dustbuster.
I'm not kidding, they kind of. Now listen, keep in mind,
(37:25):
Bethany saw sparks when you're sharpening a k bar. I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
I should have asked. Joe said this yesterday.
Speaker 6 (37:32):
When you're sharpening a ca bar, does it leave sparks?
I have no idea, or is that like just like
the kind of knife on a rock that I'm like
imagining would send sparks off.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Listen, this is a great talkback, and body, I know
you have thought about that. Listen. I'm gonna maintain the
same thing that I said the other night about potentially
like a vacuum to literally vacuum of evidence, which is
another theory. And listen, it's all theories because none of
us know none of us. But I just don't think
(38:03):
going in knowing what you plan to do, that you
would want anything encumbering your hand. I don't think so.
And also doing a sharpening a knife, it can do sparks.
I mean I've seen it at like the farmer's market
when they sharpen knives. And then my husband in the
kitchen is like a knife fanatic, and over the years
I bought him all different kinds actually which ps they
(38:27):
should be used because their knives are kind of dull
in our kitchen. But anyway, it's like a process.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
It is.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
It's two hands and you're even if you watch a
cooking show, you know so.
Speaker 6 (38:37):
I don't know, it's probably not. Then, right, it's probably not.
I still kind of think it was just the knife. Yeah, No,
I don't think he was bringing a vacuum like like
an m VACT type situation in I just think it's
like you said, it's too cumbersome and quite literally. I
don't think he Again, this is all speculation. Speculation alert.
I need to sound taha, I need to sound for
a speculation alert. I don't think he went there with
(38:59):
the intention of murdering four people, So I don't think
he would have thought to bring a sharpener.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Right?
Speaker 6 (39:05):
Like I know, right, it would have been a thought
that he would have had that it would go that
far right, that it would go that far right.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
I think he thought.
Speaker 6 (39:12):
I just think he thought he was better than he was.
He's a fool, he's an idiot, he's a clumsy clown.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Amen that listen, keep it here. Coming up at the
top of the hour, we have Sean Diddy Coombe's victim
who's come out. Do not forget to call us. We're
at eight eight eight three one prime. We want to
hear from you, and.
Speaker 6 (39:40):
Don't forget if you miss any part of Tonight's show.
You can always catch the podcast. We also want to
hear from you. Give us a call at eighty eight
thirty one crime or hit us up on our socials.
You can just send us a little DM and we'll
read it on the air at True Crime Tonight's Show
on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook.
Right now though we have a talk back, let's hear it.
Speaker 8 (40:00):
Hi, Heather from Wisconsin. Just curious with claim Maxwell being moved.
I just read to a minimum security AAMP in Texas.
Speaker 9 (40:08):
Is there security in place to make sure it's sure
that she doesn't take her own life using air quotes?
Speaker 8 (40:14):
Also, thanks and loving ladies, have a great.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Day, Heather love that question. That is a pack of
a question. I literally my jaw. Actually, I don't know
why I had not conceived of her.
Speaker 6 (40:27):
I had I didn't, like, you know, like, she goes
from a different kind of security level, so she's gonna
have a little bit more freedom to quote unquote, you know,
do away with herself.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Right.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Question?
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Interesting, I mean, here's in terms of the security. I
don't know that specifically, but I was poking around a
little bit. We know a couple of things. Some of
the inmates, they're pretty up in arms. They're like, this
is not for violent crimes or violent criminals in the
c Yeah, that's right. Oh that's right. I mean you
(41:03):
know she's convicted of sex trafficking. Yeah, for goodness sakes.
So the new facility, it's about one hundred miles from Austin,
and the I know that the people who live there,
the prisoners are lived in dormitories. There is a pretty
low staffed inmate ratio compared to other more secure federal prisons.
(41:24):
So that actually kind of does speak to what you ask.
They'll be less oversight, right, and again this is all
for inmates serving time for non violent offenses and white
collar crimes. So yeah, prisoners like shut their collectively shut
their window shades. Wow, so they have privacy. They have
some privacy, but it was exactly privacy, yes, but they
(41:46):
shut them when she was arriving to like show solidarity
of you're not wanting you really well listen what I read.
Speaker 6 (41:54):
Yeah. I kind of wonder if it's by design a
little bit, like are they sending her there because it's
going to be easier for her to do away with herself?
Like is something happening, is something brewing. That's my conspiracy bringdling.
And I don't even I mean, Stephanie would have a
hate she.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Would not be shutting up her right, yeah, on the
conspiracy of Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (42:16):
But we're gonna have to ask her when she gets
back what she thinks about this move. Does she think
does she think it was set up? And do we
know why Texas?
Speaker 2 (42:23):
I don't. I don't know. I don't know why Texas.
The other bits of information is that one of the
people who live there are do you know who Theorno CEO,
Elizabeth Holmes.
Speaker 6 (42:37):
Is, Yes, that documentary she was in she was such
a scammer. She scammed so many people out of money
and hope of curing illnesses and stuff. Yes, I know
exactly who she is.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
So this one, I'm actually I've started the book. I
probably can skip to the documentary perhaps, but I have
the book. And yet this woman is serving eleven years.
Was found guilty of defrauding investors because she basically was like,
I have the panacea, I have this blood testing thing
that's gonna cure at all.
Speaker 6 (43:09):
It was like a one and it was like a
one and done device that she was It was. It
did a whole kinds It did a lot of different things,
and it was supposed to be like this universal testing
apparatus for all kinds of diseases.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yeah, anyway, dam.
Speaker 6 (43:23):
Talk about liar, liar pants on fire this one. She
has a good horrible relationship with the with the truth.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yes she does anyway. So so that's what's doing. But
we will keep watch on there. And then also we
are all going to be keeping watch because there is
a manhunt going on. This is for the suspect in
the August first, Montana bar shooting, and this manhunt is intensifying.
So four people were fatally shot inside of a place
(43:54):
called the Owl Bar in Anaconda, Montana. Authorities have identified
the SUSA. He's named Michael Paul Brown. He's a forty
five year old Army veteran. He is at large. He
is considered armed, unstable, and extremely dangerous. Buddy, what is
going on on? What is going on right now? We
(44:15):
have three man hunts going on. We have Travis Decker,
we have this Montana bar shooter, Michael Paul Brown, and
Austin Robert Drummond in Tennessee. What is going on? Don't
I don't know, I don't recall, and it's funny something
a phrase that Joseph threw out, totally unrelated, but that
(44:35):
we've passed some rubicon like that people are perpetrating crimes
that are large scale enough and where they themselves are
deemed dangerous enough to warrant all of this man power
that these manhunts.
Speaker 6 (44:52):
Well, you knows, Marshall Service is very busy lately, so
let's make sure we're supporting them. Make sure you're following
all their social media accounts so you guys can get
updated on these man hunts, so that we're all kept safe, right, Like,
the US Marshal Service does a great job.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Hopefully they get them soon. What else about him do
we know? So we know authorities have released there's a
surveillance photo showing this suspect Brown. He's barefoot, he's shirtless,
and he was fleeing the scene wearing yeah, only black shorts.
So but at least they have that. There is a
monetary reward of seventy five hundred dollars that the US
(45:29):
Marshal Service is offering for information. And Brown's car it
was a Ford F one fifty. It's been found. It
was abandoned, but it was not located nearby. Oh yeah,
and law enforcement from state and local and federal agencies,
including the FBI and Homeland Security. Listen, they've all joined
(45:50):
forces in this search. There's over two hundred and fifty
personnel involved. And the Montana Attorney General warned that he
could turn to Anaconda, described him as someone who quote
murdered four people in cold blood for no reason whatsoever.
Speaker 6 (46:07):
Four people again, yes, again, this is Trivie Decker with three.
We have Austin Robert Drummond with four, and now this
guy with four.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Yow and then and then his name iscapesy. But the
guy who was just caught for murdering those two parents
when their two children who had to bear witness to it.
Speaker 6 (46:29):
Yeah, terrible and thank god those kids weren't the other
two and made it four. Thank god.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yes, that mom, Oh, that mom is just what a hero.
Speaker 6 (46:40):
You're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio where we
talk true crime all the time. I'm body moving and
I'm here with Courtney Armstrong, Stephanie Lei. Decker will return soon.
We are going over the headlines and I've got another
one right now. So remember Eric Menendez went to the
hospital with kidney stones and it was discussed that he
possibly might get like a medical furlough. Yeah, the Menenda's brothers,
(47:02):
they have a parole hearing August twenty first and August
twenty second, and it was discussed briefly that Gavin Newsom
might consider doing a medical furlough and Eric Mendez would
just stay in the hospital until his parole hearing. It
is kind of expected that they might get out on parole.
I mean, I think most people have kind of got
(47:23):
it in their heads that they might get on a parole.
So the idea was that he was just going to
be at the hospital, you know, for the next couple
of weeks. Right, well, he has returned to prison. He
had he had a successful kidney stone surgery. His Returney
did request the medical furlough until his upcoming parle hearing,
but that was apparently denied again. Eric has been convicted
(47:44):
alongside his brother Lyle for the nineteen eighty nine murders
of their parents. He went on, he undergoed, undergoed, undergo
I'm just making upwards.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
I love it. I'm just making upwards.
Speaker 6 (47:55):
He underwent surgery for kidney stones he's fifty four years old,
and now he is back in prison and he will
be at his Pearl hearing scheduled for late August.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
So that's the news with that. Well, you know we
should remember and actually producer Taha, you're in your shot. Yes,
I'm right here. I can hear what's going on. We
should remember to have Robert rand love him back on
the shower. Fantastic, yes, and he knows the menandez brothers
inside outside from the day after he.
Speaker 6 (48:27):
You know, I think people really underestimate how important he
actually was to the case. Not only was he reporting
on it from day one just as an outsider, but
he discovered this letter that basically is kind of getting
them this habeas corpus relief possibly yep, that is, you know,
launched this big controversy about this case. So this letter
(48:49):
was written prior to the murders, right, and it was
a letter from Was it from was Lyle or Eric?
Speaker 2 (48:55):
I can't remember.
Speaker 8 (48:56):
I think it was.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
I fairly wanted it was Lyle fact jacket, but I
think it was live.
Speaker 6 (49:03):
To his cousin talking about the abuse that they suffered
that was left out of the trial. And so this
letter is like hey, and he Robert our guest, our
friend is the one that found it.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
Right. Yeah, you are correct. That's crazy to me.
Speaker 6 (49:19):
And every time, every time he's on the show, I'm like,
oh my god, I can't believe he's on our show.
Light be such an important person in this case. Wait,
that'd be great.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
In other news. So back to Diddy. I know, body
not your favorite subject, but listen, news is news is news.
Speaker 6 (49:41):
You're right, You're right, I know.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
So. Virginia Hewan, she was identified for the first time.
Originally we knew her only as victim number three and
Sean didty Combs's indictment. So she submitted a letter to
the court, and she is asking for his release on bail. Oh,
which I think is very interesting because several other of
(50:04):
his exes wrote the exact opposite and said, listen, he's
a menace. He has a proven history of domestic abuse.
But Virginia, you know again, she wrote to the judge
subranean and we'll see what happened. She personally wrote this
(50:24):
letter to the judge denied the bail today. I mean,
you know, I think that that stands with what the
judge's judge had. I think that's what everybody was kind
of expected. But yeah, it was interesting. I mean, in
this letter she described COLEMs, said he's a changed man,
he's committed to his family, he's not violent for many years.
(50:46):
I don't even do you even know that's accurate according
to the facts that were presented in court, I don't
think so. I don't know how many years were digging back,
but it's not that many.
Speaker 6 (50:56):
I mean, maybe the years he's been in jail, not
assaulting women on the street, eaten in his life because
he's been behind bars.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Do you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly, but prior
you know, prior to that.
Speaker 6 (51:08):
So did she testify against him? She victim number three? Yeah,
she tested, Jane do she testified against him and had
all kinds of accounts of his violent activities towards her. Wow,
And so now now she's saying, oh, let him out,
that's crazy. Well, the judge apparently did not listen to
her letter because he denied bail today. I saw our
(51:28):
friend tweeted it.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
Yeah, and I was just double checking myself before I answered.
So Virginia was references victim number three in the indictment,
but she did not testify. Oh she did, Yeah, she
was one of the She was one of the people
who was out of contact. They were looking prosecutors, that's right,
and her attorney before the trial. So so no, she
did not testify and wow, yep, wow.
Speaker 6 (51:53):
So she was the one that everybody was looking for though, Like,
that's exactly that's the victim number three. Where's okay, there's
so many different ones. It's hard to keep trackling. You
need a float chart, you need to exactly mind map
of everybody.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
This non violent offender. Yeah, right, so this is what
I have been dying to hear about body, what's going
on with the Ken and Barbie Killers?
Speaker 6 (52:16):
Right, So, on the surface, Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolka
appeared to be the perfect couple. They were attractive, young,
well dressed, seemingly in love. We were blonde. Both were blonde.
Here in the States. They were nicknamed the Ken and
Barbie Killers by the media because this was also followed
(52:38):
in the United States, but it was mainly in Canada.
Between the charm lay like a really really horrific truth though,
they were predators, manipulators, and killers. So Paul Bernardo, before
Carla became even into the picture, Paul Bernardo had already
begun his criminal spree. Between nineteen eighty seven and nineteen ninety,
(52:59):
Paul terrorized the Toronto suburb of Scarborough. He sexually assaulted
women in their homes born nearby, often late at night.
He became known as the Scarborough rapist. He assaulted at
least fourteen women, possibly more.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
We don't know. Holy cow, he's young.
Speaker 6 (53:18):
He's a young guy, all right, and he's an attractive guy. Again,
Ken and Barbie killers, they were both very attractive, well liked.
They got along with people. But he's out there raping
women in the Toronto area. Despite all the composite sketches
and victim reports, police never caught him. Okay, So he
meets Carla and during the state when his rape started
(53:41):
in nineteen eighty seven, he meets Carla. All right, she
was seventeen. He was twenty three. So he's twenty three
years old out there raping women.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (53:50):
They quickly developed a relationship with a really disturbing dynamic.
Paul was dominant and abusive, and Carla she wasn't just compliant,
she was enthused.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
He asked it.
Speaker 6 (54:00):
So they're both like psychopaths.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
Okay. Kind of remind this was with each other or
with others, or well just stay tuned, okay, okay, tuned.
I'm getting excited bouty.
Speaker 6 (54:12):
I listen, I am reading. I'm gonna tell you a
little story real quick sidebar. I know about this case
because of Luca Magnata. Luca Magnada. He is the killer
that I talk about in Donut with Cats and almost
got beaped again sam Adam got me.
Speaker 2 (54:28):
I didn't do it. Don'not with cats, Okay.
Speaker 6 (54:30):
Now, Luca wanted to be associated with killers, all right.
He he often pretended to be the Moors murderers in England,
and he started this rumor online that he was dating
Carla Homoka all right. And he had a picture of
himself and the Bahamas with his mom, who was also
an attractive blonde woman, and the picture was taken so
(54:51):
far away that people believed it was really Carla, so
much so that Luca marched into the office of the
Sun newspaper in the I interviewed him about it, okay,
and he was like, I don't know why people are
test saying I'm dating Carla. I'm not just to get
his name in the news and associated with Kate. Okay, okay,
So I had to find out who she was. I'm like,
(55:12):
who's Karla Homolka? And I'm reading from my notes that
I took in twenty eleven.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
Oh my, okay, so.
Speaker 6 (55:19):
These are my notes that I'm reading, all right. So
Paul met Carla in nineteen eighty seven. She was seventeen,
he was twenty three. They quickly developed a relationship. Paul
was dominant and abusive. Carla appeared not just compliant but enthusiastic.
She idolized him and later with claim she was under
his control, but her actions would suggest otherwise. So in
(55:45):
nineteen ninety, Carla's youngest sister, Tammy. She was just fifteen,
all right, but Paul had become obsessed with her, even
sneaking into her room to please himself while she slept.
Speaker 2 (55:59):
Oh okay.
Speaker 6 (56:01):
As a Christmas gift to Paul, Carla drugged her own
sister using animal tranquilizers She worked at like a clinic,
an animal clinic. She used animal tranquilizers to drug his
own sister while while Tammy, her sister was unconscious, Paul
and Carla both raped her and filmed it.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
There has to be a very special enclave in yes.
Speaker 6 (56:27):
Yes for this, Yes, okay. Now, Tammy began to check
because she she's on these animal tranquilizers. So she started
choking because she started throwing up, and she choked on
her own vomit and died. So panicking, they dressed, they
redressed her, cleaned up the scene. They called nine one one,
pretending it was a tragic accident, saying she had drunken
alcohol while she died, and the death was ruled accidental.
(56:50):
No one suspected any foul play.
Speaker 2 (56:52):
Are you kidding?
Speaker 9 (56:53):
No?
Speaker 6 (56:54):
Move forward six months to June of nineteen ninety one.
So six months later, a fourteen year girl from Burlington, Ontario,
her name was Leslie. She was locked out of her
house after curfew. She's trying to get into her house. Right,
Paul is driving around looking for victims, and he abducted her,
brought her to his house, and over the next twenty
four hours, he and Carla repeatedly raped and tortured her again,
(57:19):
they filmed it. Carla was even seen on tape encouraging
the abuse. Right, this is ultimately so sadistic.
Speaker 2 (57:27):
I had said I wanted to hear the infamous kine marketing,
and I've changed my mind. But we're in the middle,
so go ahead, right in the middle of it. We
gotta finish, right.
Speaker 6 (57:36):
They ultimately killed her, and they figured the best way
to dispose of her body was to dismember her and
put her body parts in like concrete blocks, right in,
which they did. They did do this, but one of
these blocks was too heavy, so they had to kind
of leave it on the shoreline and it was discovered
and she was later identified through her dental records. So,
(57:57):
but they didn't know who did it all right. Victim
number three, which was about eight months later, in nineteen
ninety two, Kristin French. She was fifteen. They're all about
the same age, right, She's fifteen. She was an honor student.
She was abducted in broad daylight while walking home from
school in Saint Catharine's Carla lured her over with the map,
(58:18):
pretending to knee directions. Paul attacked her from behind him
m hmm. Paula attacked her from behind and forced her
into the car, and over the next three days, Kristin
was tortured, raped and humiliated, all captured on videotape. Unlike Leslie,
she fought back fiercely. Paul and Carla eventually murdered her
again through strangulation. Her body was found in a ditch
(58:40):
on April thirtieth in Her hair was even chopped off,
possibly a trophy.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
This is maybe the worst story I've ever heard in
my life. Listen if you want to give us a call,
and actually helped me change the subject from the story
that I'm having the hardest time like hearing eight eight
eight three to one crime. But yeah, body, this is
it's really unimaginable stuff. So go ahead, okay, Oh you know,
actually we are saved by the talkback. Oh okay, Hi,
(59:08):
it's Cynthy from Canada Collings.
Speaker 10 (59:10):
In regards to the canon Barbie killers, we don't really
call him that here in Canada, but they probably are
the most hated couple in this country. She should still
be in prison, but she managed to manipulate her way
out of that, and it's very unfortunate because she very
much manipulated the situation and probably encouraged him to be
more violent than he already was.
Speaker 2 (59:31):
Thanks, have a good.
Speaker 6 (59:32):
Night, that's right, So yeah, she should still be I'm
going to I'm going to get to that what Cynthia's
talking about. Okay, So Paul and Carla they recorded their
crimes on videotape. Again, these tapes would become central to
the investigation later, but they weren't discovered immediately.
Speaker 2 (59:48):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (59:49):
So Paul was eventually arrested because the DNA from the
rapes finally came back again.
Speaker 2 (59:54):
This is the early nineties, Oh wow, okay, right.
Speaker 6 (59:58):
And Carla presented herself as like battered wife that just
was forced to do things that Paul was sadistic, and
Paul Paul, Paul, it was all Paul. Right, So she
was hospital in January of nineteen ninety three, she was
hospitalized with black eyes and bruises, claiming Paul had beaten
her severely. At the same time, the DNA evidence linked
(01:00:19):
Paul to the Scarsborough rapes, which were unrelated to the
murders before he met Carla. Right right, Well, investigators began
digging deeper, suspecting more than just this domestic abuse, right
and fearing she would be implicated, Carla agreed to a
plea deal Okay. In May of ninety three. She would
testify against Paul in exchange for twelve years in prison
(01:00:40):
for manslaughter. At the time, prosecutors did not have these videotapes, right,
they did not have him. It wasn't until much later,
after everything was said and done, that they found the tapes.
And this is what Cynthia and Canada, our friend, our
lovely friend in Canada who we adore, thank you for
the talk back by always. Yeah, they found these tapes
(01:01:02):
and realized, oh my god, Carla participated and encouraged and
you know, she was a full blown participant in these
crimes and.
Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Year old old sister sister.
Speaker 6 (01:01:17):
Yeah so she, yeah, she gets away with it, gets
away with it. Basically, that's what it boils down to.
Carla gets away with it and she's released. She's released
in two thousand and five, I think. So let me
go to his trial. So the videotapes are finally recovered.
Hidden they were hidden behind the light fixture in the
couple's bathroom. They revealed the true horror. Carla had been active,
(01:01:40):
willing to participant in the rapes and murders. She was
seen laughing, engaging in the abuse, and even directing Paul
on what to do.
Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
Crazy, right, it's really bad yea yeah, I mean she
offered her sister up as a Christmas gift. I can't
I can't get past that. It's insane, I really can't.
Speaker 6 (01:01:57):
So Paul was convicted on all counts and sentenced in
life in prison without parole. He was declared a dangerous
offender in Canada. That means he'll likely never be released.
This danger offender status. I wish we had that in
the United States. He'll never be released. How does she
have that danger because she said that plea deal and
that's the law. So she gets out. She gets out
(01:02:20):
after twelve years, and it sent a chill through you know,
the country in Canada, an absolute chill. She struck this
controversial plea deal, you know, paying yourself as this battered
woman in exchange for testifying against him. She pled guilty
de manslaughter. At the time, the full extentdent of her
involvement was not, you know known. Nobody knew. And so
(01:02:42):
guess what. She gets out. She marries the brother of
her lawyer and starts volunteering at a school, a children's
school and children's school. She belongs in a cage. She
moved to Montreal. She started volunteering at this Montreal school
and once they realized who she was, they were like,
oh no, you cannot be a volunteer here anymore. That's
(01:03:02):
the story of Carla Homolk and Carl Lenardo.
Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
That's it that crazy, right, it really is. I mean,
it really is unimaginable. Well, listen, I guess thank you
for telling me that I actually have always wanted to know.
But now I'm gonna have nightmares. But listen, keep it here.
We're going to be breaking down tonight's stories. We have
a ton of talkbacks from you. They range from Karen
(01:03:26):
Reid to all over the Map call us anytime eight
at eight three to one crime, True crime tonight. We're
talking true crime all the time.
Speaker 6 (01:03:44):
All right, let's get back into it. We got some
talkbacks to go to, right, is that what they're doing now?
We got a bunch that's been stacking up because we
can't stop talking. So let's hear some talk about. Let's
hear from you. Let's hear some Hi.
Speaker 10 (01:03:56):
It's Cynthia from Canada calling just in regards to Karen.
Read again now that it's being spoken about. She's convicted
of being impaired while driving. So that's a d uy. Ironically,
the other individuals who were at that party were not charged,
but they were impaired based on the video, and they.
Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
Never were charged.
Speaker 10 (01:04:15):
And I'm curious as to why no chargers were relaid
against them.
Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Thanks did she mean for this? I was gonna say,
how great to hear your voice one night. I don't
I'm trying to figure out between Taha Adam or Sam
who's got the crush on Cynthia that we get to
hear her twice in one night. But it's me.
Speaker 7 (01:04:33):
It is.
Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Yes, well, body and I are thrilled, and your question
is great, and you know they should have I mean, honestly,
you know, if you can go back and Monday Monday
morning quarterback it you're in Canada, but I'm sure you
get the reference about the Monday morning quarterbacking. They no
one was tested and to have a duy you need
(01:04:55):
direct evidence of that duy. So no one had no one,
no one was tested, as a simple answer, And you
can't retroactively. Once alcohol's out of your system, it's out
of your system, so that's right.
Speaker 6 (01:05:09):
Yeah, I mean they didn't do any testing that night.
I mean, that wasn't the only thing they didn't do
that night, but they didn't do any blood tests on
anybody in that house, right, because you can't retroactively charge them, right, And.
Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Honestly, had they gone in under the normal course of
normal you know, circumstances of an investigation, when someone is
dead at the bottom of someone's driveway, you go ahead
and knock on the front door of that person. But
since that didn't happen, I want you now that I'm
saying it out loud, I wonder if maybe that was
(01:05:42):
part of why, because the investigators talked or knew that
the people at the house were drinking at the least,
if nothing but that.
Speaker 6 (01:05:50):
Yeah, But I mean, just because you're at home drinking
doesn't mean you're out driving right like right or you
he doesn't know if they took an uber that night.
I mean, it's not like they interviewed them that night,
right they went in and talked to them at the
kitchen table or something. I didn't really I wasn't really
into Karen read. I'm not one hundred percent sure.
Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
Anyway, it's a great question. Really, investigation was Nobleano on
the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and here we are talk back
number two work Hi.
Speaker 11 (01:06:22):
I was listening to the episode with your attorneys that
was providing some questions, and he brought up capital murder
and murder, and I.
Speaker 12 (01:06:33):
Really don't know the difference when I was hoping I
could get more clarification on what that means. And thank
you all for the hard work that you do and
the empathy and compassion that you show for the families
and the victims, and keep up everything that you do.
Speaker 7 (01:06:51):
We appreciate you.
Speaker 8 (01:06:52):
That meant a lot.
Speaker 6 (01:06:53):
Actually we do try to take great care. We do
really care about the victims and their families. So thank
you for the talk back and the compliment. So I
can kind of go into this if it's okay. So
there's murder, which is also called first degree murder in
most states, and the definition of that is the unlawful
and intentional killing of another person with malice, I premeditated,
(01:07:16):
they thought about it. An example would be somebody plans
and carries out the killing of a spouse. That would
be murder or you know, first degree murder. And the
punishment is usually life in prison with or without parole.
It's not automatically eligible for the death penalty. Capital murder,
which is you know, totally different. It includes first degree murder,
(01:07:38):
but there's aggravating factors, okay, and those aggravating factors vary
by state, but some of the triggers of those aggravating
factors are a contract killing, a murder for higher kind
of situation.
Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
So if it's money, if money is exchanged for a
human life, yeah.
Speaker 6 (01:07:57):
Yeah, if it's particularly heinous or cruel, like if somebody
was tortured, you know, that could be a care dismembered,
dismembered Yeah, there you go. If the murderer was committed
during another felony like a robbery, I e.
Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
Brian Coberger, I didn't know that that was quote enough.
Speaker 6 (01:08:17):
So it's an aggravating factor and they stack up, right.
So another one is multiple victims, which is also something
that Brian Coberger.
Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Okay, of course it triggered that.
Speaker 6 (01:08:27):
So those are the differences, and the punishment can include
the death penalty or life without parole. So if you
are charged with capital murder, usually there's an aggravating factor,
and there's several and again it varies by state, and
not every state has capital murder, you know, not every
state has the death penalty. There's also felony murder. Did
you guys know that?
Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
What is the specification of felony murder?
Speaker 6 (01:08:51):
So let's say you and I Courtney, right, we're out
and we're driving around and I say, let's go rob
that seven eleven, right, and we pull and sorry, seven
to eleven. I would never rob you. I love your slurpies.
Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
It would never have light.
Speaker 6 (01:09:04):
However, let's just say I want to go steal a slurpy, right,
and in the commission of stealing that slurpy, you shoot
the clerk and kill him. Mm hmm, because you're a
terrible person and I'm an angel. Okay, I just wanted
to slurpee. I can get charged with felony murder because
a murder was committed while we were together, committing another
(01:09:27):
fela I see. Oh okay, thank you first, And not
every state has that either, But that's felony murder an
incause you would think all murders felony murder, right, No,
that's just what they call it, felay murder. And one
thing you had mentioned before with first degree murder was
the pre meditation. And something I've learned along my travels
(01:09:47):
with the brilliant.
Speaker 2 (01:09:48):
Attorneys of the honor of privilege to speak to, pre
meditation can happen pretty much in an instance.
Speaker 6 (01:09:56):
I didn't know that either. I recently learned that very recently.
I didn't realize it was like a split second decision.
Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
Yep.
Speaker 6 (01:10:03):
So second degree murder would be like a passion, like
a like it just happen crime of passion, like you
you're fighting with somebody and they punch you, you punch
them back and it hits their temple and they die
right right or manslaughter?
Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
I don't know, No, it is. It's nuanced. But what
a great question. Yeah, there are there's so many and
I just that safe to stay it. Okay, right on,
you're listening to true Crime tonight, give us a call.
We're at eight eight eight three one crime. We want
to hear from you, and we are hearing from you
right now, So why don't we go ahead and go
to the next talk back?
Speaker 8 (01:10:39):
Okay, Hey, guys, I really enjoyed your conversation on dark
tourism and I would love for you guys to dissect
that a bit further, maybe in a future episode, kind
of go into why we as people are drawn to
morbid things. And also one way I believe we justify
to ourselves are more bad curiosities, if you will, is
(01:11:00):
how we can separate ourselves from them. We can look
at what was and what is so things that were
in the past or a different world and time.
Speaker 6 (01:11:08):
We deem that is okay, ooh interesting, you know it's
I'm not gonna lie. I'm I am interested in dark perism.
I am interested in going to these places. I stayed
at EST's Park at the hotel just because the shining
was filmed there. You know, I really want to go
to Chernobyl. I think I've I think.
Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
You really, I'm gonna get you a T shirt made vision.
Speaker 6 (01:11:30):
I'm interested in these and I but I here's the thing.
I'm afraid to know why I'm interested in these things.
Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 6 (01:11:37):
Like, but she kind of explained it pretty good there,
like maybe I'm wanting to separate myself from that and say, okay,
that's the history and I'm living in this world now.
It's completely separate. I'm safe, even though this is a
really dangerous place and world and particularly this place that
I'm standing in, but I'm safe. Maybe it's like to
(01:11:57):
convince myself.
Speaker 2 (01:11:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (01:11:59):
I'm very interested.
Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
Though I am too. And yeah, what a great talk
back and insight because even when we were discussing last
night and our forensic expert and buddy Joseph Scott Morgan
brought up two places I would not have considered dark
tourism spots, and maybe it's because I've been there, and
that was the Catacombs in France. I'm like, but that's
history or all of you know, the grave sites in
(01:12:24):
New Orleans, and I'm kind I'm like, but that's architecture. No,
look inside thyself, Courtney like, what what Gettysburg?
Speaker 6 (01:12:32):
I mean, yeah, of course it's history, right, of course
it is. But everything in the past is history, everything
including murders. Taha, what do you think, do you fall?
Speaker 13 (01:12:44):
I feel like the ones you're describing ti in war
with history. But when it's something like a serial killer,
like a Jack the Ripper or Jeffrey Dahmer, those feel
different to me. That feels like that's one crazy person
that has committed these rific crime versus.
Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
Something historic that we can learn from.
Speaker 7 (01:13:03):
I don't know.
Speaker 13 (01:13:03):
I don't know if that makes sense or it.
Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
Does separate the two.
Speaker 6 (01:13:06):
By the way, I went to Crime con London a
couple of years ago and I did the Jack the
Ripper tour. I totally forgot about that. So, yeah, I've
done a couple of things.
Speaker 13 (01:13:15):
I'm looking at you differently. You're doing a lot of these, so.
Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
But listen, don't judge me.
Speaker 6 (01:13:23):
I was like a guest that crime con and they
it was a crime con thing, and I was like
a featured guest. I didn't have a choice.
Speaker 13 (01:13:29):
But I will say that the Jack the Ripper that
intrigues me that there's something different about that.
Speaker 7 (01:13:33):
I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
Is it because it was so long ago.
Speaker 13 (01:13:36):
Maybe it's the time factor, I think. So it feels
like history, right, yes, but there's something weirder about the
Jim Jones or the Jeffrey Dahmer those, Yeah, difference.
Speaker 12 (01:13:46):
Yeah, I can't pinpoint one.
Speaker 6 (01:13:48):
I don't know that I would go on a Jeffrey
Dahmer tour. I don't think I would, in less the
lack of time. I think it's because I think it's
disrespectful to the family and the family is still alive.
Speaker 13 (01:14:00):
Yeah, and that was another thing for me. I also
I think that's if maybe some of the money from
these is going to the family.
Speaker 6 (01:14:06):
Yeah, like a foundation or something, then I would consider
doing it. But I wouldn't want to disrespect family members
who are live. I always think when I think of
Jeffrey Dahmer, I always think of the sister of one
of his victims at the at the sentencing here, at
the victim impact statement, when she almost attacked him.
Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
It's hard. It's a primal reaction.
Speaker 6 (01:14:28):
Yeah, and I always can I always consider her when
I'm talking about Jeffrey Dahmer. And it's hard to be
in true crime and also be completely respectful of the family.
And I think we walk a really fine line. But
we do the best we can, right, I mean we really,
we really do try.
Speaker 2 (01:14:45):
Yeah, And I will say at least yes, absolutely, and
I try when when I'm interviewing victims family members. And
that is what guys, that is what Guid's a storytelling.
That's right. And listen. As a reminder, if you have
missed any part of the show, you can always just
catch us on the podcast and we want to hear
from you. So it is up on socials. We are
(01:15:08):
at True Crime Tonight show that's on TikTok and Instagram,
or True Crime Tonight that's on Facebook. Also listen, don't forget.
Tomorrow is talk Back Tuesday, so at that time we
devote more of the show to our talkbacks. We really
try and play every single one. Get back to everybody,
and in the vein of that, we have a talkback
(01:15:31):
right now.
Speaker 5 (01:15:32):
Hi, this is Holly from Kentucky. I've been listening since
the inception of your podcast.
Speaker 7 (01:15:37):
Oh it's awesome.
Speaker 5 (01:15:38):
I have a suggestion for your docu detective series. It's
a documentary called Abducted in Playing Oh, thank you love
the show.
Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
I've seen that.
Speaker 6 (01:15:48):
I love that documentary. It is so crazy. We should
talk about that case. Yes, the girl, the girl, the
woman I can't remember her name, the woman in the
documentary who was okay, so abducted in plain sight. Is
this documentary about this this family who has a neighbor
(01:16:09):
who is assaulting one of their daughters. And in this
documentary he's also like really manipulating the parents of this
daughter and basically he's able to take her out of
the country with their permission pretty much because he manipulated
the whole situation.
Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
And kidnapped twice twice, two times, two times.
Speaker 6 (01:16:32):
Yeah, and he also kind of manipulated the dad, right remember,
Oh the dad was like rated. Oh, anyway, that is
such a good documentary. We should we should cover that
one day, like just a segment like talk about it
and maybe we could even get her on because she
does she does shows. It was fat talk about like
victims and manipulation and you know, grooming pretty much.
Speaker 2 (01:16:54):
Talk about grooming. That that perpetrator was so insidious to
that family. He really got every tentacle into mom, dad,
the kid, and she and the victimization was it was
really unbelievable.
Speaker 6 (01:17:12):
But yeah, didn't he manipulate the mom to to kind
of like fall in love with him?
Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
Absolutely?
Speaker 6 (01:17:20):
I hadn't seen it in a couple of years, but
it's so good and it's probably still on Netflix, right,
I would imagine it's sure. I think it's an original
Netflix series and from my understanding of being in an
original Netflix series, they don't really leave the platform.
Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
Well, and speaking of Netflix, we want to really extend
a huge thank you to District Attorney Alan Martin who
was with us earlier in the show, and remember to
watch his or the documentary that he has featured in
A Deadly American Marriage. It's so good.
Speaker 6 (01:17:51):
It's on Netflix, and he's a really big part of it.
He tells a lot of the story and he was
the onsecutor. Yeah, he's wonderful in.
Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
It no kind and he showed that on the show.
Tonight for sure. Sure that was a great talkback. And body,
let's let that light of fire under our collective barners.
Speaker 6 (01:18:09):
Let's get I still want to get this documentary watching.
H We really need we need Stephanie back. Okay, Stephanie,
if you're listening, we need you back. So we need
her back to get this going. And if you have
suggestions for the titles, we've already got some really good ones.
We're collecting them. Give us a talkback. What do you
think it should be called? Give us a talkback, let
us know.
Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
Yeah, we might do a little voting on social or
something and just make it a group decision and then
just dive into it. And you know, I love the
idea of a even though I personally like to read
a book, but a book club where you don't have
to read it kind of a dream. Listen, thank everybody
so much for joining us tonight on True Crime Tonight.
(01:18:52):
We can't wait to be with you tomorrow. We have
lots coming up there that we will cover and listen
and be safe and be well and have a good one.
Speaker 6 (01:19:03):
Thank you, good night, good night,
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
true crime all the time. It is Monday, it is
August fourth. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I am joined as always
by crime analyst Body Move In, and our beloved co
host Stephanie is out this evening. But do not worry,
because we've got a stacked night. A headlines for you.
(00:42):
The recent Netflix documentary it has been blowing up. It's
called A Deadly American Marriage, and it tells this story
of James Corbett. He's a man who was brutally beaten
to death by his wife and father in law. Well,
tonight we're going to be joined by a really, really
special guest who worked closely on the case and was
featured on the Dock. Also, one of Ditty's victims has
(01:05):
revealed her identity and she's spoken out about his potential bail,
So we're going to get to that, and later we're
going to talk about this story of the Ken and
Barbie killings. Listen. It's a story it's haunted Canada for years.
Body's an expert, am a novice will see where you
land in the mix. But before we get into even
(01:27):
our first story, let's go to a voicemail.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Hello, this is Benjamin Smith and I was calling about
the Devil's Bin murder. The woman who was cutting his
hair did an interview online. I was wandering it to
confine to hand play it online.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
It's good.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Thank you so much. I'll have a bless one.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Thank you so much for that voicemail. And listen. The
guys in the studio, Adam and Sam actually tipped us
off to it earlier, so we'll do better than listening online.
And everyone's going to be able to listen. And you're
what we're about to hear is hair stylist Adrianna Ruiz,
(02:07):
and she's recounting the story to local CBS news affiliate
five News in Arkansas.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
I don't know how to describe it. It he like
I saw him.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
His eyes just.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Looked sunken, pretty kind of like soulless. It's what I
could describe.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Well.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
I was about five minutes into the haircut when a
man pulled up and, uh, asking about whose car that
was that was outside, and that's when he would tell him,
you know, I believe this is your car. And he
didn't really he just stood quiet. I guess he felt
kind of scared. As soon as I saw the stickers
(02:47):
of you know, the evidence and stuff, I knew something
as wrong and I asked if it was really it
could be related to the Devil'ston incident, and they said
it could have.
Speaker 6 (02:57):
Been scary and he he does look he looks demonic
his eyes, he looks demonic. And I don't say that,
you know, he is very scary looking. No, agreed, I
mean mean is what comes to me. I mean he
just looks so mean. I'm not somebody I expect to
be a fourth grade teacher.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
No, yeah, I mean good grief like hands and out
little things at apple sauce looking like that. Absolutely, it's crazy.
And I got to say this, this woman who you know,
did the interview and was just going about her day
doing her job. Imagine that. And then the authority comes
in and they have evidence bags and she knows the
(03:39):
case because it's been everywhere.
Speaker 6 (03:41):
Yeah, I guess they were like sweeping up the hair
that had fallen onto the floor. From the haircut for evidence.
It kind of freaked her out. Yeah, of course it would.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
You know, I had a thought because when we were
talking yesterday with Joseph and we I believe it was
just yesterday that he was caught, I think, and and
you know, my thought was, and he has the wherewithal
to say, oh, I'm going to go get my hair
done after I've done this. I think it's honestly, oh okay, yeah,
but yeah, you know, still shortly said the words recently.
(04:12):
But maybe because of that, I'm like, oh, maybe he's staying,
I don't know, in a motel or something and didn't
want to leave his hair someplace.
Speaker 6 (04:20):
So maybe I think he was trying to change his
appearance a little bit and that. Yeah, and yeah, that's
what I think. And I was getting ready to start
the school year too. He was supposed to start this week.
Oh yeah, his new job teaching. Yeah, good grief.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Well, in any case, thank you for the voicemail. Thank you,
And yeah, listen, We've also been following the ongoing man hunt.
This is for the suspect in the alleged quadruple homicide.
It recently took place in Tennessee. So body can you
kind of catch us all up to speed, man. I
have been monitoring this all day long. I have been
(04:57):
f fiving on my you know, refreshing my browser. Has
he been arrested yet? Has he been arrested yet?
Speaker 6 (05:02):
Today the reward for Austin Robert Drummond has increased to
thirty thousand dollars and there has been a third and
fourth arrest in connection. Now this is in connection to
the quadruple homicide that occurred in Tennessee. Again, he is
on the run and a manhunt is has ensued and
(05:23):
it continues on Tuesday, July twenty ninth. Just to bring
everybody up to speed. On Tuesday July twenty ninth, a
seven month old baby was found abandoned in like a
driveway front yard area in Dyer County, Tennessee, Okay. Hours later,
four relatives, including the child's father, mother, uncle, and grandmother
(05:46):
were found murdered in nearby Lake County. It's about twenty
minutes away. All four victims. They released us today. By
the way, all four victims died from a parent gunshot wounds.
So they found four bodies. It was it's described as
being like in the woods, and these four bodies belong
to family members of the baby that was abandoned. So
(06:09):
they connected this guy, Austin Robert Drummond to that murder,
and he has been on the run ever since. Records
show you, guys, he has a super lengthy criminal history.
He was allegedly a member of the Vice Lord Street gang.
And get this, he's out on bond. He's out on bond.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
What is hold on? What does out on bond? I
know what out on parole means? What what's bond?
Speaker 6 (06:37):
Okay, let me go into his criminal history and I'll
get it because it's gonna explain why he's out on bond.
So right now, authorities are scouring a wooded area like
literally right now near private University in Jackson, Tennessee, on
Monday afternoon. Is part of the investigation into the subject. Again,
he's twenty eight years old, Austin Robert Drummond. A law
(07:00):
enforcement official said they're still looking for him. So here's
some of the news from today. Two additional sussects have
been arrested, so four in total have been arrested. We're
still looking for Austin. He's like the main character we're
looking right, all right, So Tanaka Brown twenty nine, was
arrested Friday and he's been charged with accessory after the
(07:20):
fact to first degree murder and tampering with evidence. Giovanki Thomas,
also twenty nine, also from Jacksonville, Tennessee. Jackson I'm sorry, Jackson, Tennessee.
Sorry Jacksonville, Florida. I did not mean to throw you
in there. Giovanki Thomas, he is twenty nine, and he
was arrested Saturday with accessory after the fact of first
(07:41):
degree murder. Now, he was already in jail on unrelated charges,
so he's being transferred to Lake County Jail for arraement
on the new charges. Wait, he was in prison and
he was in jail. It was like failure to appear.
It was unrelated charges. Now, the two people that arrested
today uh Saunders twenty three, she was arrested today and
(08:04):
charged with accessory after the fact and Brandon Powell charged
with possession of scheduled six drugs and criminal conspiracy. So
they've got some different charges, but the commonality is that
it's all sort of accessory after the fact. So they
must have helped him tamper with evidence, like maybe taking
(08:24):
the gun cleaning his car, maybe even dropping that baby off.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Well, someone had to drop the baby. The baby car
was twenty five minutes away.
Speaker 6 (08:33):
Twenty five minutes away, and apparently there were two cars
that had to be driven, so maybe driving the car.
They the police have not stated yet what exactly tampering
with evidence and accessory after the fact means.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yet, we don't know.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
Now. Austin, though, has a really, really really lengthy criminal history.
So it started when he was young, obviously, and you
know a lot of things that these always do. But
he was when he was twenty eleven, he was just
a teenager. He pled guilty to evading arrest and attempted burglary.
He received twenty four hours of community service. Easy enough, right,
easy enough?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I mean it doesn't sound like it's certainly that's pretty
start though. Yeah, that's right. Well, listen, this is true
Crime Tonight. We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here
with the Brilliant Body move In. We're talking about the
recent quadruple homicide in Tennessee. We want to hear your
thoughts and we want to hear from you on this
or really any cases that are top of your brain.
(09:29):
Give us a call. We're at eighty eight three one crime.
So okay, he starts with.
Speaker 6 (09:34):
He starts in twenty thousand, Yeah, and that's you know, okay.
So two years later, he's seventeen years old, all right,
twenty thirteen, he walked into like a convenience door, walked
behind the register in a gas station. I'm sorry, I said,
communion store, pointed a pistol at the clerk demanded she
opened the cash register, and he took the cash was
like forty four dollars inside. But a jury found him
guilty of this.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
All right.
Speaker 6 (09:55):
While he was in jail for that crime, he was
on the phone with this father and he started threatening
the juries, like the juror members, they're going to regret this,
and I'm going to get out soon, and YadA, YadA, YadA.
So he got convicted in twenty fifteen to thirteen counts
of retaliation, which gave him a lengthy sentence.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
And were those thirteen counts for each one of the jurys.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
Who Yeah, So while he's okay, so now he's got
this extended sentence. He's been given thirteen years now in
the pen. All right, So in twenty twenty, now this
is seven years later, he's up for parole and the
DA wrote a letter and called him a dangerous felony
(10:42):
offender and confirmed member of the vice. Lords continued the
letter and said that Drummond made threats against the jurors,
which of course we already know, and the robbery, and
said he was not fit to rejoin society. So he
was denied parole. While he was at this parole hearing,
they went over all the his infractions. At the time,
he had more than two dozen disciplinary issues in prison,
(11:06):
including possession of a deadly weapon, assault, refusing a drug test,
and gang activity. Now, he was released on September one
of twenty twenty four, so pretty recently, right well, that
week he got re arrested for what literally now, one
report is saying the same day he got arrested, And
(11:28):
I looked at the report and it does say September first,
but I couldn't cooberate it anywhere else, so I didn't
want to repeat it. But the same week, I think
it's safe to say the same week he was released.
He was apprehended on gun, drug and contraband charges. Three
months later in December, so just a few months ago
at this point, eight months ago, he was brought up
(11:51):
on additional charges from when he was in prison. So
while he was in prison for the first thirteen years,
he got arrested again for threatening and deadly use of
deadly force tempted murder. But when he got arraigned, he
posted bond, a thirty thousand dollars bond. He got out
(12:14):
and that's why he's out on bond. Oh my gosh. Yeah,
it's pretty extensive.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
That's so, I know.
Speaker 6 (12:21):
So he's a career criminal. He's very dangerous. He's connected
to these vice lords and I don't know for sure,
but it's being kind of talked about that the people
that he's in connection with that have been arrested, the
four people have also got connections with this vice lord's game.
And perhaps Austin is like a higher ranking member and
(12:43):
is able to kind of boss these people around and
pull the strings and pull the strings, and they've all
got like drug charges and things like that, and the
vice lords are known for running drugs. All right, well, listen,
we will be staying on top of this. As soon
as the main suspect is in custody, we will let
you know and listen, stay with us because Coming up
right after the break, we're going to have District Attorney
(13:05):
Alan Martin. He's from Netflix's documentary A Deadly American Marriage,
and we're going to also follow up on Eric Menendez's
health scare. Keep it Here True Crime Tonight. This is
(13:28):
Your Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk true crime
all the time. Later in the show, we're going to
be talking about what authorities have revealed about the suspect
in the recent Montana shooting and why killer Carla Homoka
is considered Canada's most hated woman. But first we're going
to be getting into a case that has sparked international
outrage for over a decade, the murder of James Corbett.
(13:52):
We're so lucky enough to be able to have all
of our questions on this super layered case answered by
someone super close to it. And you can't get any
clothes to this case than Our guest joining us is
Alan Martin. He is the senior Assistant District Attorney in Lexington,
North Carolina, and the prosecutor of Molly and Thomas Martin
(14:12):
in the murder of James Corbett. You may know him
or the case from the recently released Netflix documentary A
Deadly American Marriage. Welcome, Alan, thank you so much for
being here. Courtney, Before we dive into the discussion with Alan,
can you just give us like an overview of the
case for people who might not be aware.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, for sure. So Netflix is a Deadly American Marriage.
It tells the story of Jason Corbett. So he was
brutally killed in twenty fifteen by his wife and his
father in law. So that's not in dispute or unless
Allan tells us differently. And what the documentary does is
shows really conflicting narratives between the killer's claims of self
(14:53):
defense and then the family's allegation that Corbett, the victim,
was murdered in cold bla blood as part of a
plot for custody of his children. So initially the case
resulted in murder convictions, but later it led to a
plea deal for manslaughter, and it sparked absolute outrage and
(15:13):
renewed scrutiny from the public and victim Jason's family. So
once again, Alan, welcome, how are you this evening?
Speaker 7 (15:22):
Very well, thank you for asking.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
We're thrilled to have you and listen. This was such
a long and convoluted case how and when did you
come into this case?
Speaker 7 (15:33):
Our office got involved shortly after it happened in July
twenty fifteen. This is the kind of case that our
investigators with the Davidson County Sheriff's Office will work with
us on prior to charges and early in the investigation
so that we're all on the same page and focusing
(15:54):
on the same things understood. And then quickly after it happened,
got it.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
And then did you follow it along? How long were
you with the case?
Speaker 7 (16:04):
I was on the case relatively early and then was
involved with it all the way until its conclusion, with
the adjudication of the plea arrangement, after the trial and
the reversals on appeal.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
Wow, So had you went through the whole appeal process
and like everything from start to finish, that must have
been exhausting.
Speaker 7 (16:26):
So our office handled the trial and then after the
appeal we handled the retrial which led to the plea arrangement.
In North Carolina, the Attorney General's Office handles the appell
a work at Court of Appeals and State Supreme Court,
so we didn't have to do that work, but we
were obviously very interested and involved in paying attention to
(16:49):
what was happening, you know.
Speaker 6 (16:50):
In the documentary, it's for those that don't know Thomas Martin,
he's one of the accused. He's a former FBI agent,
and the documentary does a really good job of sort
of making it seem that he was kind of above board.
He worked it with the FBI his whole life. He
was sort of a stand up citizen. How did his
(17:10):
FBI background influence how you approached investigating him or did it?
Speaker 7 (17:15):
So crimes of violence like this one, you will sometimes
have people who have spotty criminal histories or violent backgrounds,
but there's an entire separate set of cases of this
kind of violence where no one involved has any criminal
history whatsoever. It is unusual to have a retired law
(17:38):
enforcement officer and especially FBI who's a suspect in this
kind of a case and a homicide, but it's not
necessarily that unusual to have someone charged with murder who
has no previous criminal history. It's not necessarily a recidivous
crime like you often see with property crimes or drug crimes.
Speaker 6 (17:56):
Okay, so not much different, but you kind of know
he knows the system a little bit, so that had
to like, you know, sort of I guess maybe more
for the police, right, like they in their interview tactics
and whatnot. They probably had to have their guard up
a little bit, I would imagine, But wow, that's pretty interesting.
Speaker 7 (18:14):
They did have to approach the interview with him with
care and with an understanding that you know, he had
sat on the other side of the table many times before.
He knows the d that's right. It called from very
careful preparation for his cross examination, since it was clear
to us before trial that he was going to testify
and Molly was not. And Greg Brown, who was one
(18:36):
of the two attorneys that worked with me on the trial,
handled his cross examination and did a wonderful job of
drawing out weaknesses in what Tom had to say and
allowing him to cast himself in an unfavorable light in
front of you.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
So I didn't realize that Mollie did not take the stand.
Somehow that fact escaped me and for people who perhaps
didn't see the documentary yet, because you have to Mollie
was the wife of the victim, just letting the audience know. Alan,
So do you have a thought as to why she
didn't take the stand?
Speaker 7 (19:13):
My speculation is that cross examination was going to be
very difficult for her. There were a number of instances,
occasions prior to the killing when we had clear demoscul
examples of her having been untruthful in a very exaggerated
(19:38):
or very black and white kind of way, and things
unrelated to the killing of Jason, But they were the
kinds of things that when you get on the stand
and your credibility is issued, is that issue. She was
going to have a lot of difficulty in coming off
as a credible person. There were just there were facts
that were going to be hard for her to work with.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
Right.
Speaker 7 (20:00):
Yeah, I'm not ever privy to the defense thinking. I
know they're her attorneys and her father's attorneys worked closely together.
Our guests is that they thought Tom would be able
to handle the explanation of what had happened that night,
and they were hopeful that his testimony would be sufficient
(20:22):
to convince the jury that this was a self defense
case and not a malice murder case.
Speaker 6 (20:27):
And he seems like a stronger character to do that.
This is your crime. Tonight on iHeartRadio, i'mbody Moving here
with Courtney Armstrong and we are joined by North Carolina
District Attorney Alan Martin, we've been talking about the murder
of James Corbett and the documentary about that called The
American what's it called again? I'm so sorry for had
the name of it already and I just watched it
Deadly American Marriage.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yes, yes, thank you.
Speaker 6 (20:49):
Yeah, it's really good and you know it's kind of short,
it's only like an hour and forty five minutes. If
you haven't watched it, I highly suggest you do. This
is my cello Netflix Documentaries star Alan Martin. So give
us a call at eighty eight thirty one crime or
hit us on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Alan.
Speaker 6 (21:07):
So, Molly's mom Sharon, This, here's what happened you guys.
If you haven't watched the documentary again, you have to
go watch it. Her parents had come to visit and
while they were sleeping, Molly's mom is in the basement
and she says she's woken up to a ruckus and
then she goes back to sleep in the basement. Alan,
did that raise any red flags with you guys?
Speaker 7 (21:27):
Yes, that raised a whole field of red flags.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (21:32):
The very little narrative we got was that she and
her husband Tom were in a guest room downstairs underneath
the master bedroom where the killing took place. They woke
up to the ruckus that Tom walked out the door,
told her to stay there, picked up a little legal
emin in baseball bat that they happened to have brought
(21:54):
with them for that visit, and walked upstairs and that
then shared and stayed in the room and fell back
to sleep. And then some time later, this was a
there was a basement, a main floor, and a second floor.
After the killing and police officers had come and ems
had come, there was an officer who went upstairs, got
(22:17):
the children out of bed, covered their faces, took them
down to the basement to put them with their grandmother
or with sharon stepgrandmother, so that they wouldn't wander into
the crime scene. And she, the officer took them downstairs, said,
you know, he knocked and opened the door, and she
was standing there and said, is everyone okay?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
And he's a little mettle kids too.
Speaker 7 (22:38):
Yeah, these are elementary school children.
Speaker 6 (22:40):
These are very little kids.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Wow.
Speaker 6 (22:43):
And his crime scene was super violent, it was, yeah, and.
Speaker 7 (22:46):
It would have it would have been very noisy. And
we did not consider it remotely credible that she had
stayed downstairs and not heard anything else and been able
to go back to sleep. But since her husband was
on trial, you cannot compel a way to get testimony
against her husband, and vice versa, And so we couldn't
interview her, we couldn't follow up with her, and we
(23:08):
could not put her on the stand to try to
get any more information out of her. But yes, that
struck us as being really really unusual and highly suspicious.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
So I didn't realize this. You can't even compel someone.
I understood the fact that you can't compel a spouse
to testify against their spouse on the stand, but that
extends to even being interviewed.
Speaker 7 (23:33):
Well, we could ask her to talk to us about
anything that wasn't privileged communication, but no person is ever
under an obligation to talk to us, and it was
it was ebundantly clear from the circumstances that she was
not going to talk to us any further. So she
was sort of and she expected herself out to I
don't know anything, I didn't see anything, I didn't hear anything.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
I was sleeping.
Speaker 8 (23:55):
Wow.
Speaker 7 (23:55):
And the reason that's so suspicious, and this was part
of the argument to the jury, one person can see
or participate in an event and then fabricate a narrative
about it and sort of tell a different story, and
may be able, under follow up questioning, be able to
weave a consistent narrative. It's hard, but it's possible with
(24:19):
two people. It's incredibly more difficult once you get separated,
because as follow up questions come, you don't know what
the other person's going to say. Unless you're both telling
the truth. That's right, I don't know what the other
person's going to say, and so they diverge with people,
it becomes impossible.
Speaker 6 (24:37):
Well, coming up next, we have more with District Attorney
Alan Martin on A Deadly American Marriage. Stay right here
on True Crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Be right back. So we are talking about Netflix A
Deadly American Marriage. It's a documentary that was released back
in May. It tells the story of Jason Corbett. He's
(25:08):
a man who was brutally killed by his wife and
father in law back in twenty fifteen. This documentary shows
conflicting narratives between the killer's claims of self defense and
the victim's family's allegations that the victim was murdered in fact,
in cold blood and it was part of a plot
for custody of his children. It's really complex, it's really
(25:31):
worth the watch, and we are thrilled to be back
with Lexington. North Carolina District Attorney Alan Martin. He's talking
about this case and he is the prosecutor, so no
one knows it better. And he was also featured on
the doc and really helps walk you. He's so good
in the documentary to really, Alan, you are so good, fabulous, So.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
Thank you for being back.
Speaker 7 (25:55):
Sure, so, can.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
You lay the stage a little bit for anyone who
hasn't watched the doc in terms of geography, because the
players in this story half for in Ireland, half for here.
Can you just give sort of a brief overview of
what that was?
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Sure?
Speaker 7 (26:13):
So, Jason was an irishman, born and raised in All
of his family lived in Ireland. He was married and
had two children and his wife. Their mother passed away
just a few weeks after the youngest child had passed
away or had been born. Then Molly came into their
(26:37):
lives as a sort of a payer. She grew up
in Tennessee and had gone to Ireland having made a
connection with them to provide childcare. Jason worked at an
industrial facility there they developed a relationship. Subsequently moved to
the United States. His company had a plant near Winston Salem,
(27:00):
North Carolina, which is in central North Carolina and is
close to Davidson County, and they lived in a community
that's a commuter neighborhood to Winston Salem, and her parents
then still lived in eastern Tennessee.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Got it Okay? Thank you for sort of laying that out. Yeah,
it's a complicated situation. And what about legally? Were there
complications on the legal end of things or because the
victim and the two people who are on trial were
all here in the United States, was that not that
big a complication.
Speaker 7 (27:37):
Yeah, it was not. It might have been different if
the defendants had been from another country and rather than
the victim being from another country. But we had full
support of all of Jason's family in Ireland and the
Irish government Irish Consulate would check in occasionally to tech
status and see if there's anything that we could do,
so we didn't have a government that was interfering on
(27:59):
behalf of it. Defendant who was there national like you
could have it. Those were reversed.
Speaker 6 (28:04):
I wish that would have been made more clear in
the documentary only because it seemed like there was a
lot of Ireland versus the United States kind of things
happening in the documentary. You know that it seemed like
a lot of Irish citizens were really enraged at the
fact that they, you know, won this appeal and you know,
the America wasn't doing justice to their their citizen. I
(28:25):
kind of wish that would have been made more clear
that actually there was a lot of support there.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
But I digress.
Speaker 6 (28:30):
So this this you know what I mean though, Like like,
if you guys had the support, I kind of wish
they would have put it in there. But I know
how it is. When they made these documentaries, you don't
really have a choice. Yes, freaking producers, right exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
I know how it is. Right. These these guys.
Speaker 7 (28:46):
We the people we worked with were wonderful and very
thorough and they did a lot of fact checking to
make sure that everything that they aired was factual and provable.
I was very impressed with them.
Speaker 6 (28:58):
You know, it's such a good doctor memory and it's
and I want to everybody out there that hasn't seen it,
it's really digestible. It's not very long, it's not like
six different parts. You don't have to commit a week
to watching this. You could sit down in an under
two hours get the whole story. And it is fascinating.
And in the documentary they show the crime scene photos
(29:20):
and in these this this crime scene is incredibly violent.
Jason was beat with a bat and you can imagine,
you know, if you close your eyes and imagine it,
how horrific this crime scene was. What was the level
of vince demonstrated in the crime scene of this case,
and what did it tell you about the case as
a whole.
Speaker 7 (29:41):
The violence that was inflicted on Jason was extraordinary, right,
and devastating. One big aspect of the case was that,
on the other hand, Tom Martin's and Molly Martin's Corbett
essentially had no injuries. And this was there was We
had a blood spatter expert who worked on this case
(30:02):
and through the bedroom a small hallway to the master bath.
In the master bath, you know, there were dozens of
what he could identify as blood events that had created
various spatter patterns, and they went from floor to ceiling
and on every wall. And the autopsy of Jason was
(30:27):
powerful information. His skull was crushed and the pathologists could
not describe the number of injuries that had called skull
fractures because they began to overlap. And so he was
able to give up a minimum number, but could not
give a maximum number because it was so extensive.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, overlapping. It's a wild amount of violence. Well, listen,
this is true crime tonight and body move and and
I are here with District Attorney Alan Martin. We're talking
about the murder of James Corbett and the documentary based
on that at Deadly American Marriage. If you have questions
for Alan, give us a call. We're at eighty eight
(31:09):
three one crime. So, Alan, I did want to ask you.
First of all, I did not realize that grandpa or
the stepfather of the victim brought the little league, happened
to bring the little league back with him. What was
the prosecution's theory between the bat and then the cinder
block rock that was mentioned, How does that come into play?
Speaker 3 (31:32):
Right?
Speaker 7 (31:32):
So Tom was Jason's father in law, step grandfather to
the children. Right, So they had a story, you know,
sort of related to family history and irrelevant circumstances to
explain why they had brought a little League aluminum all
back with them, as it had been another family member's bat,
and bringing it to the Jason son. There was another
(31:56):
story about why Molly would have had a concrete paver
in the bedroom. In the narrative that Tom gave him
too a lesser extent. Molly he used the ball bat,
and she had admitted having hit Jason at least once
in the head with the concrete paver, and they presented
(32:17):
themselves as sort of the weapons of opportunity as opposed
to like a pre planned We never had any notion
that Molly had called her parents and said, hey, Dad,
I need you to come down and help me kill Jason.
There was not you know, she had some motivation maybe
to create an explosive scene while her parents were visiting,
(32:39):
so that she could maybe get a domestic blarge protective
order and try to get custody because Jason had not
allowed her to adopt the children, and there is documentation
that she wanted to end the marriage but keep custody
of the children. Our theory was that she was trying
to create an exploit an event that would help her
(33:02):
get custody without necessarily killing him. Right, We don't have
any indication that sort of before that night there was
a plot or a premeditated plan between her and her
father to do this. But our theory was more that
she created a situation that her father was in and
then that situation got out of hand.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, she, I mean the lies, this woman, the woman
who Molly pretending that she was best friends with his
first wife, with the victim's first wife. She was wild.
But here's Mama's burning question. And it's such a small thing,
but I can't get it out of my mind. The
thing that stuck out to me the single most out
(33:44):
of this whole documentary was when Molly's father, so he
was the co perpetrator of killing John Corbett, He said
that he had just oh idly, he and his wife
idly took the four hour drive to go see his
daughter and her family. But then it later came out
(34:04):
that that night that he had canceled a dinner with
his boss. Was that a big deal in court? Or
can you tell me? Is there anything I missed about that?
Because it drives me nuts.
Speaker 7 (34:15):
It was one more little thing. It wasn't anything that
tips the scales one way or the other. That sort
of thing and I want to go back one sec
just since we're engaged in a conversation and you use
the word liar, and that's something that when, particularly when
we're in court, we have to be careful labeling a defendant.
That way, we can say, on this occasion, there's evidence
they didn't tell the truth, and we can say things
(34:36):
like this person has a complicated relationship with the truth.
But we can't go into court and say to a jury,
this person's a liar, therefore you should convict them of murder. Right,
But certainly when you're talking about what they said happened,
you know, those types of situations where they say one
thing and there's demonstrable evidence that that's not entirely true,
(34:59):
that certainly can become powerful in front of the jury.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Right, And that is a really good thing to point
out of what can you know, what has to be
said in court versus the court of.
Speaker 6 (35:10):
Publish And no, I kind of want to write that
one down. A complicated relationship with the truth. I really
like that.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I've had a lot of ex boyfriend.
Speaker 6 (35:17):
It's such a media it's such a professional way of saying, hey, listen,
you're liar, liar, pants on.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Fire, well, Alan, you are not a liar, liar pants
on fire, but you are the greatest explainer of this
story and we were so grateful to have you on
our show. And listen, everyone should go out immediately watch
a deadly American marriage.
Speaker 6 (35:38):
Later in the show, I'm going to be telling you
the story of Paul Bernardo and Carla Holmoka, and I'm
going to give you a little bit of insight into
how I kind of started learning about this case time.
They are Canada's most hated couple. And don't forget Tomorrow,
I'm so excited, is talk back Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Now.
Speaker 6 (35:55):
We always listen to your talkbacks, like we the first
thing we say, right Courtney, how many talk backs do
we have?
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Yeah, we always listen.
Speaker 6 (36:05):
But Tomorrow Tuesday is when we dedicate, you know, more
time to the show to hear your talkbacks. And speaking
of which we have one right now, let's go to
that talkback.
Speaker 9 (36:13):
Hey, ladies, this is still from Tampa, just listening to
the last night's show, talking about what BK was potentially
a folding as he was walking out when Dylan saw him.
My speculation is that maybe it was the k bar
knife sharpener. I'm not sure if you guys have looked
that up yet, and it's been documented that he purchased
one at the time that he got the knife in
(36:33):
the sheep, and it kind of resembles a thin looking
vacuum system. Just wondering if you guys had looked at that.
Speaker 6 (36:41):
Yes, yes, yes, thank you for that talkback. I could
talk about this for six hours. So I looked up
the knife sharpeners and I don't know what model he bought,
but if you just google knife sharpener, there's two different
kinds that I thought might be something that he was carrying.
One is I think it's made by Tumbler and it
(37:01):
looks like a little drum.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (37:03):
Now Dylan describes this bulge and I'm like, okay, maybe
that's it. But then she describes it as an arrow
shaped object or a vacuum type object. Now there's the
other kind of knife sharpeners are like ten ninety nine
at Walmart and they kind of look like a little dustbuster.
I'm not kidding, they kind of. Now listen, keep in mind,
(37:25):
Bethany saw sparks when you're sharpening a k bar. I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
I should have asked. Joe said this yesterday.
Speaker 6 (37:32):
When you're sharpening a ca bar, does it leave sparks?
I have no idea, or is that like just like
the kind of knife on a rock that I'm like
imagining would send sparks off.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Listen, this is a great talkback, and body, I know
you have thought about that. Listen. I'm gonna maintain the
same thing that I said the other night about potentially
like a vacuum to literally vacuum of evidence, which is
another theory. And listen, it's all theories because none of
us know none of us. But I just don't think
(38:03):
going in knowing what you plan to do, that you
would want anything encumbering your hand. I don't think so.
And also doing a sharpening a knife, it can do sparks.
I mean I've seen it at like the farmer's market
when they sharpen knives. And then my husband in the
kitchen is like a knife fanatic, and over the years
I bought him all different kinds actually which ps they
(38:27):
should be used because their knives are kind of dull
in our kitchen. But anyway, it's like a process.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
It is.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
It's two hands and you're even if you watch a
cooking show, you know so.
Speaker 6 (38:37):
I don't know, it's probably not. Then, right, it's probably not.
I still kind of think it was just the knife. Yeah, No,
I don't think he was bringing a vacuum like like
an m VACT type situation in I just think it's
like you said, it's too cumbersome and quite literally. I
don't think he Again, this is all speculation. Speculation alert.
I need to sound taha, I need to sound for
a speculation alert. I don't think he went there with
(38:59):
the intention of murdering four people, So I don't think
he would have thought to bring a sharpener.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Right?
Speaker 6 (39:05):
Like I know, right, it would have been a thought
that he would have had that it would go that
far right, that it would go that far right.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
I think he thought.
Speaker 6 (39:12):
I just think he thought he was better than he was.
He's a fool, he's an idiot, he's a clumsy clown.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Amen that listen, keep it here. Coming up at the
top of the hour, we have Sean Diddy Coombe's victim
who's come out. Do not forget to call us. We're
at eight eight eight three one prime. We want to
hear from you, and.
Speaker 6 (39:40):
Don't forget if you miss any part of Tonight's show.
You can always catch the podcast. We also want to
hear from you. Give us a call at eighty eight
thirty one crime or hit us up on our socials.
You can just send us a little DM and we'll
read it on the air at True Crime Tonight's Show
on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook.
Right now though we have a talk back, let's hear it.
Speaker 8 (40:00):
Hi, Heather from Wisconsin. Just curious with claim Maxwell being moved.
I just read to a minimum security AAMP in Texas.
Speaker 9 (40:08):
Is there security in place to make sure it's sure
that she doesn't take her own life using air quotes?
Speaker 8 (40:14):
Also, thanks and loving ladies, have a great.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Day, Heather love that question. That is a pack of
a question. I literally my jaw. Actually, I don't know
why I had not conceived of her.
Speaker 6 (40:27):
I had I didn't, like, you know, like, she goes
from a different kind of security level, so she's gonna
have a little bit more freedom to quote unquote, you know,
do away with herself.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Right.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Question?
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Interesting, I mean, here's in terms of the security. I
don't know that specifically, but I was poking around a
little bit. We know a couple of things. Some of
the inmates, they're pretty up in arms. They're like, this
is not for violent crimes or violent criminals in the
c Yeah, that's right. Oh that's right. I mean you
(41:03):
know she's convicted of sex trafficking. Yeah, for goodness sakes.
So the new facility, it's about one hundred miles from Austin,
and the I know that the people who live there,
the prisoners are lived in dormitories. There is a pretty
low staffed inmate ratio compared to other more secure federal prisons.
(41:24):
So that actually kind of does speak to what you ask.
They'll be less oversight, right, and again this is all
for inmates serving time for non violent offenses and white
collar crimes. So yeah, prisoners like shut their collectively shut
their window shades. Wow, so they have privacy. They have
some privacy, but it was exactly privacy, yes, but they
(41:46):
shut them when she was arriving to like show solidarity
of you're not wanting you really well listen what I read.
Speaker 6 (41:54):
Yeah. I kind of wonder if it's by design a
little bit, like are they sending her there because it's
going to be easier for her to do away with herself?
Like is something happening, is something brewing. That's my conspiracy bringdling.
And I don't even I mean, Stephanie would have a
hate she.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Would not be shutting up her right, yeah, on the
conspiracy of Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (42:16):
But we're gonna have to ask her when she gets
back what she thinks about this move. Does she think
does she think it was set up? And do we
know why Texas?
Speaker 2 (42:23):
I don't. I don't know. I don't know why Texas.
The other bits of information is that one of the
people who live there are do you know who Theorno CEO,
Elizabeth Holmes.
Speaker 6 (42:37):
Is, Yes, that documentary she was in she was such
a scammer. She scammed so many people out of money
and hope of curing illnesses and stuff. Yes, I know
exactly who she is.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
So this one, I'm actually I've started the book. I
probably can skip to the documentary perhaps, but I have
the book. And yet this woman is serving eleven years.
Was found guilty of defrauding investors because she basically was like,
I have the panacea, I have this blood testing thing
that's gonna cure at all.
Speaker 6 (43:09):
It was like a one and it was like a
one and done device that she was It was. It
did a whole kinds It did a lot of different things,
and it was supposed to be like this universal testing
apparatus for all kinds of diseases.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yeah, anyway, dam.
Speaker 6 (43:23):
Talk about liar, liar pants on fire this one. She
has a good horrible relationship with the with the truth.
Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yes she does anyway. So so that's what's doing. But
we will keep watch on there. And then also we
are all going to be keeping watch because there is
a manhunt going on. This is for the suspect in
the August first, Montana bar shooting, and this manhunt is intensifying.
So four people were fatally shot inside of a place
(43:54):
called the Owl Bar in Anaconda, Montana. Authorities have identified
the SUSA. He's named Michael Paul Brown. He's a forty
five year old Army veteran. He is at large. He
is considered armed, unstable, and extremely dangerous. Buddy, what is
going on on? What is going on right now? We
(44:15):
have three man hunts going on. We have Travis Decker,
we have this Montana bar shooter, Michael Paul Brown, and
Austin Robert Drummond in Tennessee. What is going on? Don't
I don't know, I don't recall, and it's funny something
a phrase that Joseph threw out, totally unrelated, but that
(44:35):
we've passed some rubicon like that people are perpetrating crimes
that are large scale enough and where they themselves are
deemed dangerous enough to warrant all of this man power
that these manhunts.
Speaker 6 (44:52):
Well, you knows, Marshall Service is very busy lately, so
let's make sure we're supporting them. Make sure you're following
all their social media accounts so you guys can get
updated on these man hunts, so that we're all kept safe, right, Like,
the US Marshal Service does a great job.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Hopefully they get them soon. What else about him do
we know? So we know authorities have released there's a
surveillance photo showing this suspect Brown. He's barefoot, he's shirtless,
and he was fleeing the scene wearing yeah, only black shorts.
So but at least they have that. There is a
monetary reward of seventy five hundred dollars that the US
(45:29):
Marshal Service is offering for information. And Brown's car it
was a Ford F one fifty. It's been found. It
was abandoned, but it was not located nearby. Oh yeah,
and law enforcement from state and local and federal agencies,
including the FBI and Homeland Security. Listen, they've all joined
(45:50):
forces in this search. There's over two hundred and fifty
personnel involved. And the Montana Attorney General warned that he
could turn to Anaconda, described him as someone who quote
murdered four people in cold blood for no reason whatsoever.
Speaker 6 (46:07):
Four people again, yes, again, this is Trivie Decker with three.
We have Austin Robert Drummond with four, and now this
guy with four.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Yow and then and then his name iscapesy. But the
guy who was just caught for murdering those two parents
when their two children who had to bear witness to it.
Speaker 6 (46:29):
Yeah, terrible and thank god those kids weren't the other
two and made it four. Thank god.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Yes, that mom, Oh, that mom is just what a hero.
Speaker 6 (46:40):
You're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio where we
talk true crime all the time. I'm body moving and
I'm here with Courtney Armstrong, Stephanie Lei. Decker will return soon.
We are going over the headlines and I've got another
one right now. So remember Eric Menendez went to the
hospital with kidney stones and it was discussed that he
possibly might get like a medical furlough. Yeah, the Menenda's brothers,
(47:02):
they have a parole hearing August twenty first and August
twenty second, and it was discussed briefly that Gavin Newsom
might consider doing a medical furlough and Eric Mendez would
just stay in the hospital until his parole hearing. It
is kind of expected that they might get out on parole.
I mean, I think most people have kind of got
(47:23):
it in their heads that they might get on a parole.
So the idea was that he was just going to
be at the hospital, you know, for the next couple
of weeks. Right, well, he has returned to prison. He
had he had a successful kidney stone surgery. His Returney
did request the medical furlough until his upcoming parle hearing,
but that was apparently denied again. Eric has been convicted
(47:44):
alongside his brother Lyle for the nineteen eighty nine murders
of their parents. He went on, he undergoed, undergoed, undergo
I'm just making upwards.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
I love it. I'm just making upwards.
Speaker 6 (47:55):
He underwent surgery for kidney stones he's fifty four years old,
and now he is back in prison and he will
be at his Pearl hearing scheduled for late August.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
So that's the news with that. Well, you know we
should remember and actually producer Taha, you're in your shot. Yes,
I'm right here. I can hear what's going on. We
should remember to have Robert rand love him back on
the shower. Fantastic, yes, and he knows the menandez brothers
inside outside from the day after he.
Speaker 6 (48:27):
You know, I think people really underestimate how important he
actually was to the case. Not only was he reporting
on it from day one just as an outsider, but
he discovered this letter that basically is kind of getting
them this habeas corpus relief possibly yep, that is, you know,
launched this big controversy about this case. So this letter
(48:49):
was written prior to the murders, right, and it was
a letter from Was it from was Lyle or Eric?
Speaker 2 (48:55):
I can't remember.
Speaker 8 (48:56):
I think it was.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
I fairly wanted it was Lyle fact jacket, but I
think it was live.
Speaker 6 (49:03):
To his cousin talking about the abuse that they suffered
that was left out of the trial. And so this
letter is like hey, and he Robert our guest, our
friend is the one that found it.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
Right. Yeah, you are correct. That's crazy to me.
Speaker 6 (49:19):
And every time, every time he's on the show, I'm like,
oh my god, I can't believe he's on our show.
Light be such an important person in this case. Wait,
that'd be great.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
In other news. So back to Diddy. I know, body
not your favorite subject, but listen, news is news is news.
Speaker 6 (49:41):
You're right, You're right, I know.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
So. Virginia Hewan, she was identified for the first time.
Originally we knew her only as victim number three and
Sean didty Combs's indictment. So she submitted a letter to
the court, and she is asking for his release on bail. Oh,
which I think is very interesting because several other of
(50:04):
his exes wrote the exact opposite and said, listen, he's
a menace. He has a proven history of domestic abuse.
But Virginia, you know again, she wrote to the judge
subranean and we'll see what happened. She personally wrote this
(50:24):
letter to the judge denied the bail today. I mean,
you know, I think that that stands with what the
judge's judge had. I think that's what everybody was kind
of expected. But yeah, it was interesting. I mean, in
this letter she described COLEMs, said he's a changed man,
he's committed to his family, he's not violent for many years.
(50:46):
I don't even do you even know that's accurate according
to the facts that were presented in court, I don't
think so. I don't know how many years were digging back,
but it's not that many.
Speaker 6 (50:56):
I mean, maybe the years he's been in jail, not
assaulting women on the street, eaten in his life because
he's been behind bars.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Do you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly, but prior
you know, prior to that.
Speaker 6 (51:08):
So did she testify against him? She victim number three? Yeah,
she tested, Jane do she testified against him and had
all kinds of accounts of his violent activities towards her. Wow,
And so now now she's saying, oh, let him out,
that's crazy. Well, the judge apparently did not listen to
her letter because he denied bail today. I saw our
(51:28):
friend tweeted it.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
Yeah, and I was just double checking myself before I answered.
So Virginia was references victim number three in the indictment,
but she did not testify. Oh she did, Yeah, she
was one of the She was one of the people
who was out of contact. They were looking prosecutors, that's right,
and her attorney before the trial. So so no, she
did not testify and wow, yep, wow.
Speaker 6 (51:53):
So she was the one that everybody was looking for though, Like,
that's exactly that's the victim number three. Where's okay, there's
so many different ones. It's hard to keep trackling. You
need a float chart, you need to exactly mind map
of everybody.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
This non violent offender. Yeah, right, so this is what
I have been dying to hear about body, what's going
on with the Ken and Barbie Killers?
Speaker 6 (52:16):
Right, So, on the surface, Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolka
appeared to be the perfect couple. They were attractive, young,
well dressed, seemingly in love. We were blonde. Both were blonde.
Here in the States. They were nicknamed the Ken and
Barbie Killers by the media because this was also followed
(52:38):
in the United States, but it was mainly in Canada.
Between the charm lay like a really really horrific truth though,
they were predators, manipulators, and killers. So Paul Bernardo, before
Carla became even into the picture, Paul Bernardo had already
begun his criminal spree. Between nineteen eighty seven and nineteen ninety,
(52:59):
Paul terrorized the Toronto suburb of Scarborough. He sexually assaulted
women in their homes born nearby, often late at night.
He became known as the Scarborough rapist. He assaulted at
least fourteen women, possibly more.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
We don't know. Holy cow, he's young.
Speaker 6 (53:18):
He's a young guy, all right, and he's an attractive guy. Again,
Ken and Barbie killers, they were both very attractive, well liked.
They got along with people. But he's out there raping
women in the Toronto area. Despite all the composite sketches
and victim reports, police never caught him. Okay, So he
meets Carla and during the state when his rape started
(53:41):
in nineteen eighty seven, he meets Carla. All right, she
was seventeen. He was twenty three. So he's twenty three
years old out there raping women.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (53:50):
They quickly developed a relationship with a really disturbing dynamic.
Paul was dominant and abusive, and Carla she wasn't just compliant,
she was enthused.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
He asked it.
Speaker 6 (54:00):
So they're both like psychopaths.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
Okay. Kind of remind this was with each other or
with others, or well just stay tuned, okay, okay, tuned.
I'm getting excited bouty.
Speaker 6 (54:12):
I listen, I am reading. I'm gonna tell you a
little story real quick sidebar. I know about this case
because of Luca Magnata. Luca Magnada. He is the killer
that I talk about in Donut with Cats and almost
got beaped again sam Adam got me.
Speaker 2 (54:28):
I didn't do it. Don'not with cats, Okay.
Speaker 6 (54:30):
Now, Luca wanted to be associated with killers, all right.
He he often pretended to be the Moors murderers in England,
and he started this rumor online that he was dating
Carla Homoka all right. And he had a picture of
himself and the Bahamas with his mom, who was also
an attractive blonde woman, and the picture was taken so
(54:51):
far away that people believed it was really Carla, so
much so that Luca marched into the office of the
Sun newspaper in the I interviewed him about it, okay,
and he was like, I don't know why people are
test saying I'm dating Carla. I'm not just to get
his name in the news and associated with Kate. Okay, okay,
So I had to find out who she was. I'm like,
(55:12):
who's Karla Homolka? And I'm reading from my notes that
I took in twenty eleven.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
Oh my, okay, so.
Speaker 6 (55:19):
These are my notes that I'm reading, all right. So
Paul met Carla in nineteen eighty seven. She was seventeen,
he was twenty three. They quickly developed a relationship. Paul
was dominant and abusive. Carla appeared not just compliant but enthusiastic.
She idolized him and later with claim she was under
his control, but her actions would suggest otherwise. So in
(55:45):
nineteen ninety, Carla's youngest sister, Tammy. She was just fifteen,
all right, but Paul had become obsessed with her, even
sneaking into her room to please himself while she slept.
Speaker 2 (55:59):
Oh okay.
Speaker 6 (56:01):
As a Christmas gift to Paul, Carla drugged her own
sister using animal tranquilizers She worked at like a clinic,
an animal clinic. She used animal tranquilizers to drug his
own sister while while Tammy, her sister was unconscious, Paul
and Carla both raped her and filmed it.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
There has to be a very special enclave in yes.
Speaker 6 (56:27):
Yes for this, Yes, okay. Now, Tammy began to check
because she she's on these animal tranquilizers. So she started
choking because she started throwing up, and she choked on
her own vomit and died. So panicking, they dressed, they
redressed her, cleaned up the scene. They called nine one one,
pretending it was a tragic accident, saying she had drunken
alcohol while she died, and the death was ruled accidental.
(56:50):
No one suspected any foul play.
Speaker 2 (56:52):
Are you kidding?
Speaker 9 (56:53):
No?
Speaker 6 (56:54):
Move forward six months to June of nineteen ninety one.
So six months later, a fourteen year girl from Burlington, Ontario,
her name was Leslie. She was locked out of her
house after curfew. She's trying to get into her house. Right,
Paul is driving around looking for victims, and he abducted her,
brought her to his house, and over the next twenty
four hours, he and Carla repeatedly raped and tortured her again,
(57:19):
they filmed it. Carla was even seen on tape encouraging
the abuse. Right, this is ultimately so sadistic.
Speaker 2 (57:27):
I had said I wanted to hear the infamous kine marketing,
and I've changed my mind. But we're in the middle,
so go ahead, right in the middle of it. We
gotta finish, right.
Speaker 6 (57:36):
They ultimately killed her, and they figured the best way
to dispose of her body was to dismember her and
put her body parts in like concrete blocks, right in,
which they did. They did do this, but one of
these blocks was too heavy, so they had to kind
of leave it on the shoreline and it was discovered
and she was later identified through her dental records. So,
(57:57):
but they didn't know who did it all right. Victim
number three, which was about eight months later, in nineteen
ninety two, Kristin French. She was fifteen. They're all about
the same age, right, She's fifteen. She was an honor student.
She was abducted in broad daylight while walking home from
school in Saint Catharine's Carla lured her over with the map,
(58:18):
pretending to knee directions. Paul attacked her from behind him
m hmm. Paula attacked her from behind and forced her
into the car, and over the next three days, Kristin
was tortured, raped and humiliated, all captured on videotape. Unlike Leslie,
she fought back fiercely. Paul and Carla eventually murdered her
again through strangulation. Her body was found in a ditch
(58:40):
on April thirtieth in Her hair was even chopped off,
possibly a trophy.
Speaker 2 (58:45):
This is maybe the worst story I've ever heard in
my life. Listen if you want to give us a call,
and actually helped me change the subject from the story
that I'm having the hardest time like hearing eight eight
eight three to one crime. But yeah, body, this is
it's really unimaginable stuff. So go ahead, okay, Oh you know,
actually we are saved by the talkback. Oh okay, Hi,
(59:08):
it's Cynthy from Canada Collings.
Speaker 10 (59:10):
In regards to the canon Barbie killers, we don't really
call him that here in Canada, but they probably are
the most hated couple in this country. She should still
be in prison, but she managed to manipulate her way
out of that, and it's very unfortunate because she very
much manipulated the situation and probably encouraged him to be
more violent than he already was.
Speaker 2 (59:31):
Thanks, have a good.
Speaker 6 (59:32):
Night, that's right, So yeah, she should still be I'm
going to I'm going to get to that what Cynthia's
talking about. Okay, So Paul and Carla they recorded their
crimes on videotape. Again, these tapes would become central to
the investigation later, but they weren't discovered immediately.
Speaker 2 (59:48):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (59:49):
So Paul was eventually arrested because the DNA from the
rapes finally came back again.
Speaker 2 (59:54):
This is the early nineties, Oh wow, okay, right.
Speaker 6 (59:58):
And Carla presented herself as like battered wife that just
was forced to do things that Paul was sadistic, and
Paul Paul, Paul, it was all Paul. Right, So she
was hospital in January of nineteen ninety three, she was
hospitalized with black eyes and bruises, claiming Paul had beaten
her severely. At the same time, the DNA evidence linked
(01:00:19):
Paul to the Scarsborough rapes, which were unrelated to the
murders before he met Carla. Right right, Well, investigators began
digging deeper, suspecting more than just this domestic abuse, right
and fearing she would be implicated, Carla agreed to a
plea deal Okay. In May of ninety three. She would
testify against Paul in exchange for twelve years in prison
(01:00:40):
for manslaughter. At the time, prosecutors did not have these videotapes, right,
they did not have him. It wasn't until much later,
after everything was said and done, that they found the tapes.
And this is what Cynthia and Canada, our friend, our
lovely friend in Canada who we adore, thank you for
the talk back by always. Yeah, they found these tapes
(01:01:02):
and realized, oh my god, Carla participated and encouraged and
you know, she was a full blown participant in these
crimes and.
Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Year old old sister sister.
Speaker 6 (01:01:17):
Yeah so she, yeah, she gets away with it, gets
away with it. Basically, that's what it boils down to.
Carla gets away with it and she's released. She's released
in two thousand and five, I think. So let me
go to his trial. So the videotapes are finally recovered.
Hidden they were hidden behind the light fixture in the
couple's bathroom. They revealed the true horror. Carla had been active,
(01:01:40):
willing to participant in the rapes and murders. She was
seen laughing, engaging in the abuse, and even directing Paul
on what to do.
Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
Crazy, right, it's really bad yea yeah, I mean she
offered her sister up as a Christmas gift. I can't
I can't get past that. It's insane, I really can't.
Speaker 6 (01:01:57):
So Paul was convicted on all counts and sentenced in
life in prison without parole. He was declared a dangerous
offender in Canada. That means he'll likely never be released.
This danger offender status. I wish we had that in
the United States. He'll never be released. How does she
have that danger because she said that plea deal and
that's the law. So she gets out. She gets out
(01:02:20):
after twelve years, and it sent a chill through you know,
the country in Canada, an absolute chill. She struck this
controversial plea deal, you know, paying yourself as this battered
woman in exchange for testifying against him. She pled guilty
de manslaughter. At the time, the full extentdent of her
involvement was not, you know known. Nobody knew. And so
(01:02:42):
guess what. She gets out. She marries the brother of
her lawyer and starts volunteering at a school, a children's
school and children's school. She belongs in a cage. She
moved to Montreal. She started volunteering at this Montreal school
and once they realized who she was, they were like,
oh no, you cannot be a volunteer here anymore. That's
(01:03:02):
the story of Carla Homolk and Carl Lenardo.
Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
That's it that crazy, right, it really is. I mean,
it really is unimaginable. Well, listen, I guess thank you
for telling me that I actually have always wanted to know.
But now I'm gonna have nightmares. But listen, keep it here.
We're going to be breaking down tonight's stories. We have
a ton of talkbacks from you. They range from Karen
(01:03:26):
Reid to all over the Map call us anytime eight
at eight three to one crime, True crime tonight. We're
talking true crime all the time.
Speaker 6 (01:03:44):
All right, let's get back into it. We got some
talkbacks to go to, right, is that what they're doing now?
We got a bunch that's been stacking up because we
can't stop talking. So let's hear some talk about. Let's
hear from you. Let's hear some Hi.
Speaker 10 (01:03:56):
It's Cynthia from Canada calling just in regards to Karen.
Read again now that it's being spoken about. She's convicted
of being impaired while driving. So that's a d uy. Ironically,
the other individuals who were at that party were not charged,
but they were impaired based on the video, and they.
Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
Never were charged.
Speaker 10 (01:04:15):
And I'm curious as to why no chargers were relaid
against them.
Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
Thanks did she mean for this? I was gonna say,
how great to hear your voice one night. I don't
I'm trying to figure out between Taha Adam or Sam
who's got the crush on Cynthia that we get to
hear her twice in one night. But it's me.
Speaker 7 (01:04:33):
It is.
Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Yes, well, body and I are thrilled, and your question
is great, and you know they should have I mean, honestly,
you know, if you can go back and Monday Monday
morning quarterback it you're in Canada, but I'm sure you
get the reference about the Monday morning quarterbacking. They no
one was tested and to have a duy you need
(01:04:55):
direct evidence of that duy. So no one had no one,
no one was tested, as a simple answer, And you
can't retroactively. Once alcohol's out of your system, it's out
of your system, so that's right.
Speaker 6 (01:05:09):
Yeah, I mean they didn't do any testing that night.
I mean, that wasn't the only thing they didn't do
that night, but they didn't do any blood tests on
anybody in that house, right, because you can't retroactively charge them, right, And.
Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Honestly, had they gone in under the normal course of
normal you know, circumstances of an investigation, when someone is
dead at the bottom of someone's driveway, you go ahead
and knock on the front door of that person. But
since that didn't happen, I want you now that I'm
saying it out loud, I wonder if maybe that was
(01:05:42):
part of why, because the investigators talked or knew that
the people at the house were drinking at the least,
if nothing but that.
Speaker 6 (01:05:50):
Yeah, But I mean, just because you're at home drinking
doesn't mean you're out driving right like right or you
he doesn't know if they took an uber that night.
I mean, it's not like they interviewed them that night,
right they went in and talked to them at the
kitchen table or something. I didn't really I wasn't really
into Karen read. I'm not one hundred percent sure.
Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
Anyway, it's a great question. Really, investigation was Nobleano on
the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and here we are talk back
number two work Hi.
Speaker 11 (01:06:22):
I was listening to the episode with your attorneys that
was providing some questions, and he brought up capital murder
and murder, and I.
Speaker 12 (01:06:33):
Really don't know the difference when I was hoping I
could get more clarification on what that means. And thank
you all for the hard work that you do and
the empathy and compassion that you show for the families
and the victims, and keep up everything that you do.
Speaker 7 (01:06:51):
We appreciate you.
Speaker 8 (01:06:52):
That meant a lot.
Speaker 6 (01:06:53):
Actually we do try to take great care. We do
really care about the victims and their families. So thank
you for the talk back and the compliment. So I
can kind of go into this if it's okay. So
there's murder, which is also called first degree murder in
most states, and the definition of that is the unlawful
and intentional killing of another person with malice, I premeditated,
(01:07:16):
they thought about it. An example would be somebody plans
and carries out the killing of a spouse. That would
be murder or you know, first degree murder. And the
punishment is usually life in prison with or without parole.
It's not automatically eligible for the death penalty. Capital murder,
which is you know, totally different. It includes first degree murder,
(01:07:38):
but there's aggravating factors, okay, and those aggravating factors vary
by state, but some of the triggers of those aggravating
factors are a contract killing, a murder for higher kind
of situation.
Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
So if it's money, if money is exchanged for a
human life, yeah.
Speaker 6 (01:07:57):
Yeah, if it's particularly heinous or cruel, like if somebody
was tortured, you know, that could be a care dismembered,
dismembered Yeah, there you go. If the murderer was committed
during another felony like a robbery, I e.
Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
Brian Coberger, I didn't know that that was quote enough.
Speaker 6 (01:08:17):
So it's an aggravating factor and they stack up, right.
So another one is multiple victims, which is also something
that Brian Coberger.
Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Okay, of course it triggered that.
Speaker 6 (01:08:27):
So those are the differences, and the punishment can include
the death penalty or life without parole. So if you
are charged with capital murder, usually there's an aggravating factor,
and there's several and again it varies by state, and
not every state has capital murder, you know, not every
state has the death penalty. There's also felony murder. Did
you guys know that?
Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
What is the specification of felony murder?
Speaker 6 (01:08:51):
So let's say you and I Courtney, right, we're out
and we're driving around and I say, let's go rob
that seven eleven, right, and we pull and sorry, seven
to eleven. I would never rob you. I love your slurpies.
Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
It would never have light.
Speaker 6 (01:09:04):
However, let's just say I want to go steal a slurpy, right,
and in the commission of stealing that slurpy, you shoot
the clerk and kill him. Mm hmm, because you're a
terrible person and I'm an angel. Okay, I just wanted
to slurpee. I can get charged with felony murder because
a murder was committed while we were together, committing another
(01:09:27):
fela I see. Oh okay, thank you first, And not
every state has that either, But that's felony murder an
incause you would think all murders felony murder, right, No,
that's just what they call it, felay murder. And one
thing you had mentioned before with first degree murder was
the pre meditation. And something I've learned along my travels
(01:09:47):
with the brilliant.
Speaker 2 (01:09:48):
Attorneys of the honor of privilege to speak to, pre
meditation can happen pretty much in an instance.
Speaker 6 (01:09:56):
I didn't know that either. I recently learned that very recently.
I didn't realize it was like a split second decision.
Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
Yep.
Speaker 6 (01:10:03):
So second degree murder would be like a passion, like
a like it just happen crime of passion, like you
you're fighting with somebody and they punch you, you punch
them back and it hits their temple and they die
right right or manslaughter?
Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
I don't know, No, it is. It's nuanced. But what
a great question. Yeah, there are there's so many and
I just that safe to stay it. Okay, right on,
you're listening to true Crime tonight, give us a call.
We're at eight eight eight three one crime. We want
to hear from you, and we are hearing from you
right now, So why don't we go ahead and go
to the next talk back?
Speaker 8 (01:10:39):
Okay, Hey, guys, I really enjoyed your conversation on dark
tourism and I would love for you guys to dissect
that a bit further, maybe in a future episode, kind
of go into why we as people are drawn to
morbid things. And also one way I believe we justify
to ourselves are more bad curiosities, if you will, is
(01:11:00):
how we can separate ourselves from them. We can look
at what was and what is so things that were
in the past or a different world and time.
Speaker 6 (01:11:08):
We deem that is okay, ooh interesting, you know it's
I'm not gonna lie. I'm I am interested in dark perism.
I am interested in going to these places. I stayed
at EST's Park at the hotel just because the shining
was filmed there. You know, I really want to go
to Chernobyl. I think I've I think.
Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
You really, I'm gonna get you a T shirt made vision.
Speaker 6 (01:11:30):
I'm interested in these and I but I here's the thing.
I'm afraid to know why I'm interested in these things.
Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 6 (01:11:37):
Like, but she kind of explained it pretty good there,
like maybe I'm wanting to separate myself from that and say, okay,
that's the history and I'm living in this world now.
It's completely separate. I'm safe, even though this is a
really dangerous place and world and particularly this place that
I'm standing in, but I'm safe. Maybe it's like to
(01:11:57):
convince myself.
Speaker 2 (01:11:58):
I don't know.
Speaker 6 (01:11:59):
I'm very interested.
Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
Though I am too. And yeah, what a great talk
back and insight because even when we were discussing last
night and our forensic expert and buddy Joseph Scott Morgan
brought up two places I would not have considered dark
tourism spots, and maybe it's because I've been there, and
that was the Catacombs in France. I'm like, but that's
history or all of you know, the grave sites in
(01:12:24):
New Orleans, and I'm kind I'm like, but that's architecture. No,
look inside thyself, Courtney like, what what Gettysburg?
Speaker 6 (01:12:32):
I mean, yeah, of course it's history, right, of course
it is. But everything in the past is history, everything
including murders. Taha, what do you think, do you fall?
Speaker 13 (01:12:44):
I feel like the ones you're describing ti in war
with history. But when it's something like a serial killer,
like a Jack the Ripper or Jeffrey Dahmer, those feel
different to me. That feels like that's one crazy person
that has committed these rific crime versus.
Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
Something historic that we can learn from.
Speaker 7 (01:13:03):
I don't know.
Speaker 13 (01:13:03):
I don't know if that makes sense or it.
Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
Does separate the two.
Speaker 6 (01:13:06):
By the way, I went to Crime con London a
couple of years ago and I did the Jack the
Ripper tour. I totally forgot about that. So, yeah, I've
done a couple of things.
Speaker 13 (01:13:15):
I'm looking at you differently. You're doing a lot of these, so.
Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
But listen, don't judge me.
Speaker 6 (01:13:23):
I was like a guest that crime con and they
it was a crime con thing, and I was like
a featured guest. I didn't have a choice.
Speaker 13 (01:13:29):
But I will say that the Jack the Ripper that
intrigues me that there's something different about that.
Speaker 7 (01:13:33):
I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
Is it because it was so long ago.
Speaker 13 (01:13:36):
Maybe it's the time factor, I think. So it feels
like history, right, yes, but there's something weirder about the
Jim Jones or the Jeffrey Dahmer those, Yeah, difference.
Speaker 12 (01:13:46):
Yeah, I can't pinpoint one.
Speaker 6 (01:13:48):
I don't know that I would go on a Jeffrey
Dahmer tour. I don't think I would, in less the
lack of time. I think it's because I think it's
disrespectful to the family and the family is still alive.
Speaker 13 (01:14:00):
Yeah, and that was another thing for me. I also
I think that's if maybe some of the money from
these is going to the family.
Speaker 6 (01:14:06):
Yeah, like a foundation or something, then I would consider
doing it. But I wouldn't want to disrespect family members
who are live. I always think when I think of
Jeffrey Dahmer, I always think of the sister of one
of his victims at the at the sentencing here, at
the victim impact statement, when she almost attacked him.
Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
It's hard. It's a primal reaction.
Speaker 6 (01:14:28):
Yeah, and I always can I always consider her when
I'm talking about Jeffrey Dahmer. And it's hard to be
in true crime and also be completely respectful of the family.
And I think we walk a really fine line. But
we do the best we can, right, I mean we really,
we really do try.
Speaker 2 (01:14:45):
Yeah, And I will say at least yes, absolutely, and
I try when when I'm interviewing victims family members. And
that is what guys, that is what Guid's a storytelling.
That's right. And listen. As a reminder, if you have
missed any part of the show, you can always just
catch us on the podcast and we want to hear
from you. So it is up on socials. We are
(01:15:08):
at True Crime Tonight show that's on TikTok and Instagram,
or True Crime Tonight that's on Facebook. Also listen, don't forget.
Tomorrow is talk Back Tuesday, so at that time we
devote more of the show to our talkbacks. We really
try and play every single one. Get back to everybody,
and in the vein of that, we have a talkback
(01:15:31):
right now.
Speaker 5 (01:15:32):
Hi, this is Holly from Kentucky. I've been listening since
the inception of your podcast.
Speaker 7 (01:15:37):
Oh it's awesome.
Speaker 5 (01:15:38):
I have a suggestion for your docu detective series. It's
a documentary called Abducted in Playing Oh, thank you love
the show.
Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
I've seen that.
Speaker 6 (01:15:48):
I love that documentary. It is so crazy. We should
talk about that case. Yes, the girl, the girl, the
woman I can't remember her name, the woman in the
documentary who was okay, so abducted in plain sight. Is
this documentary about this this family who has a neighbor
(01:16:09):
who is assaulting one of their daughters. And in this
documentary he's also like really manipulating the parents of this
daughter and basically he's able to take her out of
the country with their permission pretty much because he manipulated
the whole situation.
Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
And kidnapped twice twice, two times, two times.
Speaker 6 (01:16:32):
Yeah, and he also kind of manipulated the dad, right remember,
Oh the dad was like rated. Oh, anyway, that is
such a good documentary. We should we should cover that
one day, like just a segment like talk about it
and maybe we could even get her on because she
does she does shows. It was fat talk about like
victims and manipulation and you know, grooming pretty much.
Speaker 2 (01:16:54):
Talk about grooming. That that perpetrator was so insidious to
that family. He really got every tentacle into mom, dad,
the kid, and she and the victimization was it was
really unbelievable.
Speaker 6 (01:17:12):
But yeah, didn't he manipulate the mom to to kind
of like fall in love with him?
Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
Absolutely?
Speaker 6 (01:17:20):
I hadn't seen it in a couple of years, but
it's so good and it's probably still on Netflix, right,
I would imagine it's sure. I think it's an original
Netflix series and from my understanding of being in an
original Netflix series, they don't really leave the platform.
Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
Well, and speaking of Netflix, we want to really extend
a huge thank you to District Attorney Alan Martin who
was with us earlier in the show, and remember to
watch his or the documentary that he has featured in
A Deadly American Marriage. It's so good.
Speaker 6 (01:17:51):
It's on Netflix, and he's a really big part of it.
He tells a lot of the story and he was
the onsecutor. Yeah, he's wonderful in.
Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
It no kind and he showed that on the show.
Tonight for sure. Sure that was a great talkback. And body,
let's let that light of fire under our collective barners.
Speaker 6 (01:18:09):
Let's get I still want to get this documentary watching.
H We really need we need Stephanie back. Okay, Stephanie,
if you're listening, we need you back. So we need
her back to get this going. And if you have
suggestions for the titles, we've already got some really good ones.
We're collecting them. Give us a talkback. What do you
think it should be called? Give us a talkback, let
us know.
Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
Yeah, we might do a little voting on social or
something and just make it a group decision and then
just dive into it. And you know, I love the
idea of a even though I personally like to read
a book, but a book club where you don't have
to read it kind of a dream. Listen, thank everybody
so much for joining us tonight on True Crime Tonight.
(01:18:52):
We can't wait to be with you tomorrow. We have
lots coming up there that we will cover and listen
and be safe and be well and have a good one.
Speaker 6 (01:19:03):
Thank you, good night, good night,
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