Into the World of Incels and Unpacking the Sentencing of Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Monday, October sixth, and guess what.
We have a stacked night of headlines. Guys, the news
has been off the chains today. Before we go any further,
I'm Stephanie Lai Decker and i head of KAT Studios,
where we make true crime podcasts like The Idaho Massacre

(00:40):
Season three out now and in Cells also on iHeart
right now, and documentaries and I get to be here
every single night with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
The band is together.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
We have a stacked night of headlines tonight and some
very special guests.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
So listen.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
We haven't really been able to talk about this since Friday,
big decision in did he get fifty months behind bars
federal prison? So where is still being decided? But you know,
time served, et cetera. We're going to unpack that. We
have secret Service Sam with us directly.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
He's been following this case since day one.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
I have also been following him since day one, really
have outside about him a lot I have, I have,
And he is here, He's here, he's here. There's so
much to discuss there, you know. Top of line though,
just worth noting Judge Submarinean he said it best, you know,
he had to give this judgment and I quote so
he could let abusers and victims alike know that the

(01:43):
exploitation and violence against women is met with real accountability.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
So there's so much to discuss there.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Also, you know, on this same note but different, the
Supreme Court has declined to hear Gilean Maxwell's you know,
plead to get an appeal. Will she get a part in?
I guess that's the next big question and a story
that we actually can't believe is real, but it is
once again in the sex trafficking of it all. I

(02:11):
don't know if you guys have been following this very
scary story about Howard Rubin. He's a retired New York
financier and his assistant, Jennifer Powers. They've also been indicted
major sex trafficking ring allegedly allegedly allegedly what is happening
in the world, and then later in the show, we
have Honor Powell, our producer and the great journalist. He's

(02:35):
also pure a KT family. He's also been hard at
work working on our podcast in Cells and is going
to break down all kinds of scary things on that
front as well.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
So, ladies, that's a nice we're going to start.

Speaker 4 (02:49):
Did we have to start with Didty again at the
beginning because this goes back to Friday and we haven't
spoken about it, so just to encapsulate Shawan Diddy Coombs,
he was sentenced to fifty months in prison. He was
fined five hundred thousand dollars and he has been ordered
to serve five years of supervised release for transporting women
to engage in prostitutions and this was during his orchestrated

(03:10):
freak offs that we've all spoken so much about. And
joining us tonight to discuss the latest is journalist and
comedian Samson Krupin. He has known to millions online as
Secret Service Sam. He is the host of the hit
YouTube show Samson's World. He delivers sharp daily commentary celebrity trials,
culture and justice, and he has been diligently following the

(03:32):
Diddy trial.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
Welcome Sam, Welcome Sam.

Speaker 5 (03:35):
Hello, Hello, Thank you guys so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
What a road this must have been. We know that
you were just in New York. You're always traveling there
to be there at the courthouse. I mean, now that
you've had a couple of days to process, what's your
immediate takeaway?

Speaker 5 (03:52):
Well, it was interesting when I was sitting inside the
courtroom and we heard them say fifty months. You know,
Judge Supermannian was like kind of freaking everybody out because,
for I think everybody going into it, Diddy's team thought
that he would get time served and maybe walk out
of the courtroom that very day. And so when the

(04:13):
judge said, we need to make an example of these
heinous crimes, and he's like, this is a very serious
this crime requires a very serious sentence, and we were like,
oh my god, like is he going to go the
full twenty? Is he going to go eleven? And then
he said the probation had suggested sixty months, and so

(04:34):
when he chose fifty months, you know, five years sounded
like a lot to everybody in that room. But then
once we came out and people started to say, subtract
his time served, subtract his free Diddy game seminars that
he does that he's only really looking at like a
year and a half. And then I don't know if
you guys heard today, but Donald Trump just said about

(04:57):
well he was talking about just Laine Maxwell. But then
he said, yeah, I have a lot of people have
asked me for pardons. I call him puff Daddy, and
he's asked me for a pardon. So like poff, you know,
I know they are hitting up Trump right now to
get a part in because they're just.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Like, you know, big time by the way it might happen, right,
that's a very very reasonable thing.

Speaker 5 (05:22):
It seemed to be like cos you know.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, but he didn't say no, Like he didn't shut
it down either. So just coming off of the moment
when we finally have somebody who was standing up for
you know, bad behavior, and we can kind of probably
talk to nauseum about what the sentencing should have been
or what it shouldn't have been. We were all super
divided as well. We would have been very unsurprising if

(05:47):
he walked to that day for sure. Yeah, so I
thought it seemed fairly reasonable. Five years seemed a bit
more reasonable, just for that same reason, like somebody needs
to make an example. You just heard the headlines for today.
It's all we're talking about sex ring after sex ring
after sex ring, right, very influential people.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
And I think that has to be kimbashed.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
I have to say, and I promise I will not
have this be some debate over what the sentencing should
have been. One thing really stuck in my craw though,
is Judge the Marinian. He said all of things like
you said, you know as you read Stephanie, and I'm
victim forward and I'm making an example. However, what he
had also said before the sentencing was that he was

(06:29):
going to use the Federal Sentencing Guidelines of seventy to
eighty seven months as the basis for the sentence that
he would hand down. So he said that and that
Rane represents the judge standard for the case based on
the guidelines, so to me, and he's saying all these great,
wonderful victim forward things. He went below what he said

(06:50):
was going to be his basis.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
So anyway, I ideo.

Speaker 5 (06:55):
People were very surprised inside the courtroom because the way
he was talking. He's like, we have to make an
example out of you. But as he was saying, we
need to make an example, we need to send a
message to victims that if they come forward that something
will be done, justice will be served. And it was
kind of a slap on the wrist. It was like

(07:16):
all bark and no bite, is how some people felt
about the sentence.

Speaker 6 (07:20):
Yes, today, should Knight said today that this was a
win for the Diddy family. Yeah, you know, it was
win basically him getting what he got because he'll be
home in the year.

Speaker 5 (07:29):
Yeah. I mean I talked to Brian Steele directly after
the trial, Miss west Moreland. She was very sad. Brian
Steele was very upset. I said, why, you know, it
seems like kind of a win, and he said, have
you ever been in federal prison? And I'm like no,
And he's like it's a terrible place. He's like, one
day in there is one day too many. So I

(07:50):
think he really, you know, and he was tearing up.
You know, it was surprising. I mean, him and Miss
west Moreland inside the courtroom, we're tearing up when they
were to the judge about letting him off.

Speaker 6 (08:02):
Well, he's apparently requesting to go to Fort Dix exactly
in Jersey, right, Yeah, which is a low security federal prison.
It has no high walls, it doesn't have guards from towers.
It has a pretty high population, but they live in
like bunks right where there's like four and a five
men in a cubby sort of in a like a bunk,

(08:24):
like a camp if you form a federal camp.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
I'm sure that's not like in the park, but there's
many other plane the worst camp ever.

Speaker 3 (08:32):
The worst, but we didn't go there. Scary place. Same. Yeah,
so he may very well be in New Jersey.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
And I'm sure there are more severe security places and
higher security prisons that he could be sent to.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
And I guess we'll have to wait and see. Yeah, yeah,
we're gonna wait and see on that. Sam. Do you
think fame ultimately helped or hurt that he in this?

Speaker 5 (08:55):
I feel like it it definitely helped, because I feel
like somebody else if they weren't this famous and whatnot,
I don't know if they would have gotten away with
the rico, you know, I think having I mean maybe,
I don't know. I mean we see black men all
the time have the innocent and thrown in jail for years.
So if you strip away the fame, especially if you

(09:18):
strip away the money, then yeah, of course, but the
fact that he had ten million dollars per lawyer, he
probably spent about one hundred million dollars on lawyers. I mean,
it's not surprising he got off. But yes, I think
fame played a very big part in it, especially for
the jury, you know, because nobody wants to you know,
you don't want to hate your hero, you know, And

(09:40):
so I think him being famous, where even when I
was inside the courtroom, you know, and you'd see that
terrible video of him and Cassie, you somehow have sympathy
for it because he looks pathetic. He's like he would
come in and give us hard emojisus safe. Yeah, and
you actually you feel sorry for him a little bit.
But then you have to mind yourself, like he put

(10:01):
himself here, you know, a he.

Speaker 4 (10:04):
Put himself there, and listen, I was not in person,
and humanity comes out of all of us when we're
ne're human, So this is easy for me to say.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
Also, the guy can put on a pretty good face.

Speaker 4 (10:14):
I mean, the Bible seemed overkill for his gray headed character,
dressing up like mister Rogers, like it was just there was.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
So much put behind it.

Speaker 4 (10:24):
But listen, the result was good and it evoked what
it was supposed to do, so I guess, you know,
job well done.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
Defense.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
Do you think the video that he presented, which is
incredibly unusual most you know, defendants don't get to have
a video that's highly edited and produced submitted to the
judge prior to sentencing, which was a real love letter
to himself.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yes, candidly, do you think that helped? Did that hurt?
I found it to be a bit of a turn off.

Speaker 5 (10:53):
Yeah, I think at that point it was a bit
of a turn off. I mean, could you imagine during
the oj trial if he was allowed to play like
highlight reel of him scoring touchdowns and him and the
naked gun and the juice and we love him in
his commercial hurts getting a car? Yeah, hurts. I mean
it's crazy. I personally felt that each of his lawyers spoke,

(11:15):
and I'm a comedian, so I kind of was just
feeling out the room and I'm like, everybody's going too long.
Like Jason Driscoll did great. He cited some cases where
it said the minimum sentencing for comparable things were like
fourteen to seventeen months, so he outlined out he shouldn't
get along sentence. He should have time served. Then Miss

(11:36):
west Moreland came up spoke about how he inspired her.
She starts crying. To be honest, it was red in
the room as a little bit. Oh wow, she's crying.
It's a little much. Some the feeling was. And then
the kids came up and they each spoke. And when
the twins started speaking, the twin girls, oh my god,

(11:57):
it was heartbreaking because they were like, we lost mother. Please, Judge,
don't take our father away from us. And there wasn't
a dry eye in the courtroom, I mean, and it
really pulled at you. And then they played the eleven
minute video, which I'm an editor. It was like a
wedding video. It should have been cut down to like

(12:17):
three minutes. I'm surprised they let them play it. And
then all the other lawyers went up and spoke. So
it was just like kicking a dead horse where I
feel like and they're like, Judge, can can can the
pastor now come up and say and Judge, we do
have somebody who an inmate on the phone who is
willing to get on speaker. And the judge I think
I think in his head he's like, guys, I already

(12:39):
know how long I'm going to sentence him to This
is not if anything, the kids, I feel like broke
through to him where there was a moment where he's like, Wow,
this is impactful. But past the kids, they were just
kicking a dead horse in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
And by the way, those kids do break my heart,
you know, they really do. They didn't ask for any
of them. I mean they're so fullnout. He has many kids,
and yeah, they went their father back and I can
really appreciate that, but again, it doesn't change the crime
or what he's been accused of. Has also been really
hard to come back from. And what's the middle ground

(13:15):
and how do we prevent this from happening again.

Speaker 5 (13:18):
Yeah, And I talked to Dana, to the mother of
the two year old love, and that was especially sad.
I was talking her outside the court building and you know,
her daughter is in that video saying Daddy, I love you,
and and she was just crying outside the court building
because it's you know, like you said, it's one thing
when we're not in the courtroom, you know, it doesn't

(13:38):
seem real, but when you know, you see a mother
who's like her daughter really is asking when dad is
coming home, you know, a two year old. It's heartbreaking,
you know. And again he put himself there. It's not
like he was probably Dad of the year there every
single night. But there are real people involved, and that's something.
Being inside the courtroom I think I really came to

(14:00):
understand more.

Speaker 4 (14:01):
So, Yeah, I mean it really is interesting. I mean
it is specific being in the courtroom. I'll definitely agree,
and you do just get it's such different feels on
different sides and everyone, like you said, they're all real people, which.

Speaker 6 (14:14):
Even the defendants right there, absolutely right.

Speaker 5 (14:17):
Even the witnesses. There's so much being said about them,
but to actually hear their voice and their emotion is
way different.

Speaker 6 (14:24):
Right While this is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm
Boddy Movin and I'm here with Stephanie Lydecker and Courty Armstrong,
and we are joined by journalists and comedians Samson Krupin's
secret service Sam as he's known, Keep it right here.
We're going to continue this conversation when we return or
give us a call. Eighty eight thirty one Crime.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
Keep it right here.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lidecker here with
Courtney armst Wrong and body move in as always, full
moon everyone. I hope wherever you are that the moon
is bright because we also have secret Service Sam, who
has been doing some very diligent reporting outside the courthouse

(15:14):
and inside the court room throughout this Diddy fiasco, and
we were just talking about the fact that he was
given fifteen months. We'd love to hear from you what
your thoughts are. Join us eight eight eight three one crime.
You could always leave us a talk back as well.
Download the iHeartRadio app and then just push the little
microphone icon in the top right hand button. So listen, Sam,

(15:38):
what do you make of next steps? You know, where
is he going to go? He's probably not going to
serve that that much time. But will he be on
his best behavior? Do you have any prediction?

Speaker 3 (15:49):
Fuel?

Speaker 5 (15:50):
Yeah, I think will be on his best behavior. I mean,
they just announced he's going to Fort Dix. Like we said,
in terms of federal prisons, it sounds pretty easy, you know,
like they were talking about inside the courtroom, Diddy is
a big mark. You know a lot of people it's
like to get him or to beat him up, or
to shank him or to literally get his backside. You know,

(16:13):
there is a prize out for that, so I believe
he will have good behavior. You know, I think he
from what I saw, and like we said, it's hard
to tell how much of an act it could be.
The mister Rogers sweaters all this, but you know, he
seems pretty miserable. I'm guessing a guy going from living
the high life on Star Island to living the low life,

(16:36):
he would do anything to get out of there. My
guess is his team is working very diligently to see
how much is it going to cost for a presidential pardon,
because I wouldn't be surprised now that he's been sentenced
to see Donald Trump pardon him. You know, I know
Diddy said some things he didn't like about him during

(16:57):
the campaign, but money will race all of that for
Donald Trump, I believe.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
And it is how he having left. How is that possible?
I feel like, did he have spent so much money?
How does he have that much money?

Speaker 5 (17:11):
I don't know. And he got fined half a million
dollars for the two counts of prostitution. I don't know.
You know, I feel like he's still his plane he's
renting out, Like, I feel like he still has all
of his businesses of kind of move. I mean, they
were saying his businesses have been destroyed, but I feel

(17:31):
like he's a guy. Like he had that his water
company with Mark Wahlberg. I don't know how much all
that is still going, but I feel like he was
so invested in so many different places he's gotta still have,
you know, I think all his money is like in
somebody else's name.

Speaker 4 (17:47):
And bad Boy Records is huge, Sean John, that is huge.
The clothes fragrances Sarah is a best seller.

Speaker 5 (17:57):
Yes, sar Rock's still going, is it really? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, I was going to say, Sean John such a
big clothing line anymore?

Speaker 3 (18:04):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
But regardless, you know, we're talking about so many payoffs
that have happened throughout the years now, all of the
legal bills that have happened, all the payoffs from there.
You know, Yes, I don't even know what the going
rate is for a presidential pardon.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
Canst be a lot.

Speaker 6 (18:20):
Newsweek is reporting, though, that he did officially ask Trump
for a pardon as of four minutes ago.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
You're kidding this justin this is breaking news and evolving stories.

Speaker 6 (18:30):
We did he request New Jersey prison transfer as Trump
confirms pardon.

Speaker 5 (18:35):
For I don't know, I mean, who knows it could
have happened this week. Trump is going to do anything
to distract again close files.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
So have you been following much of that either? Also
in your neck of the woods, you know all of
these federal cases. Julane Maxwell obviously has had her appeal dropped,
meaning she was hoping to be covered under the co
conspirator deal that Epstein had made, and looks like that's
not going to happen. But again, Trump can pardon her

(19:04):
as well.

Speaker 5 (19:05):
Right, and I think he will. I mean, I think
he's going to. I think he's going to do whatever
he can to keep this thing away from people finding
about the Epstein files. I mean, you see Speaker Mike
Johnson not certifying the two hundred and eighteenth vote so
we can open the Epstein files. And then did you

(19:27):
see too, there was a guy on TikTok who was
threatening allegedly Speaker Mike Johnson to like release his grinder,
like if there, I mean, he should be the freakin'
like mascot for grinder, you know what I mean, Like
just like of closeted people like you just know allegedly,

(19:48):
Allegedly he has a kind of smarmy little you know, like,
I mean he just you know, he shows up and
he's like, hey, how wow, you're really handsome. Yeah, he's
a guy to guy. Follow you handsome and you're like, hey,
where did everybody go? Like? I feel why am I
in a corner? Mike? You know, hey, you're you're beautiful?

(20:12):
They've ever told you that you? Oh God, get away
from me. I mean, he's so creepy. I just I
don't know how people can't read that more clearly.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
I know it's very So you think there's a lot
going on.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yeah, we've been getting a lot of top backs and
a lot of voicemails, and we're always.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
Like, how do we cover this exactly?

Speaker 2 (20:30):
But there is this intensifying feeling that there does seem
to be a distraction against the Epstein files. Yeah, we
cover it here a lot, and I'm so confused by
it because.

Speaker 6 (20:41):
I kind of feel like, if if he pardons Gillane
and Diddy or let's say and or Diddy, that look
makes him look soft on sexual crime. So I would
think he would stay away from that and not pardon those.

Speaker 5 (20:55):
Two, right, Yeah, I mean one would think, but I
just think he wants to pardon jis Laine, especially so
he can get her and send her to some island.
I say, Lane, sorry, no, you're fine.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Bro, you're listening back. We're like, are we going to
get shot here? Now?

Speaker 2 (21:14):
That secret? We're like hiding under the desks. My goodness.
But like, listen, it does seem like it's heating up.
It seems like it's heating up on every corner. Yeah,
I mean, all the cases that we're about to talk
to reference sex rings, you know. And again, my heart
really does go out so deeply to any of the
victims who came out to speak up against it, Diddy,

(21:35):
I can't imagine.

Speaker 3 (21:36):
Very brave of them, that, yeah, very brave.

Speaker 5 (21:39):
Well, it is how they're talking about redacting the victim.
We need to protect the victims. But then the president
is calling it a hoax as literal victims are speaking
on Capitol. Hell, you know, it's like this, this crap
that they want to protect victims is such a cover up.
They just want to protect these elite you know, business

(22:01):
you know, are you know. I think the problem is
is there's people on both sides of the aisle that
are guilty and on this list, and I'd say let
them all go.

Speaker 6 (22:10):
You know, mutual assured destruction is what they're trying to protect.
I think, right, it's both sides, right, like they're both dirty.

Speaker 5 (22:17):
Yeah, because I think when the Democrats had it, they
were like, yeah, let's not like Bill Clans, like, yeah,
we're never opening up and we'reever talking about this. And
then I think the Republicans started using it as a
tactic to get some of their base riled up. And
then you see Cash Patel gets in there, Dan Bongino,
both those guys Conspiracy, Theoris Epstein, Epstein, they get to like, uh,

(22:38):
there's nothing to see. He killed himself. You're like, oh wow,
you guys had so much to say before and now nothing,
you know, and you can just tell they've seen the
truth and they're like, we can't talk about this, Like,
oh my god, I know how he though. I think
it's everybody. I mean, I just think there's so many

(22:59):
powerful elite democratic you know, business people. I just think
that they can't afford to expose it all.

Speaker 4 (23:07):
A pox on everyone's house, well hopefully not yours.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
On this full Moon Night. This is true Crimes to Night.
I'm Courtney.

Speaker 4 (23:13):
I'm here with Stephanie and Body Movin and we are
so lucky dev journalists and comedians Samson Krupin aka Secret Service,
Sam Thing, We're talking Diddy, We're talking Epstein, and we
want to be talking to you eight at eight three
to one Crime. So, Sam, there's something that I think
we've all been dying to ask you about. Sure, throughout
the trial, it seemed like there was almost a secondary

(23:36):
scene going on on outside.

Speaker 3 (23:39):
What was it like there?

Speaker 5 (23:41):
Well, outside the courtroom was, in my opinion, where the
real drama was happening. Because every morning I would get there,
I would usually at the beginning of tryoutd hire a
line center, but that got too expensive, so I started
camping out in line myself. So I would have to
get there, you know, anywhere from two to three in
the morning. And most of the line setters that are

(24:04):
holding lines for all the major legacy media are kind
of you know, might be homeless, might not be there
camping out their intents, so there's lots of fights. The
first morning I was there, I pull up in line
and this guy thought I was budding line.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
And He's like, you piece.

Speaker 5 (24:23):
You know, he's cursing at me, starts filming me, cursing,
saying all these horrible things to me. And I'm eating
a breakfast sandwich. It's five am, and he's like, I
hope you choke on that and die. Choke on your sandwich.
I'm like, oh my god, I stop eating because I
was like, don't choke and die, Sam, don't joke, don't
choke and die. And I was like, what is your
problem this guy John? This was like the beginning of

(24:46):
our relationship where we were just kind of oil and
water throughout the trial. There was another time in the
morning where John, this homeless guy line setter, and this
guy Jimmy who had this huge two by four piece
of wood. Jimmy comes up to us five am again.
He goes, I'm gonna hit John over the head with
this piece of wood. Be very quiet, snitches get stitches,

(25:10):
and I'm like, all right, dude, I'm just sitting here
at texting. I'm like, I'm like whatever, dude. He goes
over starts to hit John with this big piece of wood.
John wakes up. He's like, Jimmy, what are you doing?
Jimmy grabs his cell phone throws it on the ground.
I have all this on camera.

Speaker 3 (25:27):
What the heck?

Speaker 5 (25:28):
And then so John calls the police to file charges
on this crazy guy Jimmy who attacked him and me
and this other woman, Queen Amadora Shakur, another influencer witnessed
the whole thing. So John comes over. He calls the
police and he's like, tell him, tell him what you saw, Sam,
And I was like, dude, I don't want any part

(25:48):
of this. Yeah, first time I met you and you
told me to choke on my sandwich and die. I
want no part of this. It's five am, no John,
and he goes. So the cops go away. So I'm
just sitting there on my phone and after the cops going,
John comes. He grabs my phone and he goes, since
mine got smashed, everybody's is and he smashes my phone
on the ground, takes this other woman smashes hers on

(26:11):
the ground. I was like what. So then we call
the police. They come back. I say, well, we want
to press charges and we want to file police report
because he he you know, it's you know, he attacked
this and everything. So we file that police report. I
get that police report number give it to the court buildings.
So then John is officially banned from the court building.

(26:33):
So from that point on he was not ever allowed
inside the court building again. And then one of the
last days, I'm sitting there outside, just exhausted, and all
of a sudden, John rolls up on roller blades and
he's got his drunk messed out buddy, and he goes
serve them the papers, serve them, and the guy like
throws the papers and they land. He goes, no, no,

(26:55):
they have to hit his body. And then the guy
throws papers at me and I was like, get to
hear what is this? And later I find out he
claims he's suing me for one hundred million dollars.

Speaker 3 (27:05):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 5 (27:07):
Yeah. So I'm just like, great, are.

Speaker 6 (27:10):
We gonna have to go and camp out of your trial?
Are we gonna have to sit outside and camp out?

Speaker 5 (27:15):
And I hope not. I asked my brother and my father.
A lawyer is like, and I don't think it's been
filed in New York that he actually did it. And
then I just saw him like what for, Like what
grounds defamation? Because he had threatened, allegedly some women in
line to do some pretty awful things and people were
talking about it, and I had just happened to be

(27:36):
talking about I like, John, you know, you threaten all
these women in line allegedly and all this, and so
he was suing me for defamation and I'm like one
hundred million dollars. It was like doctor Evil. I'm like,
that's a lot of right.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
The sandwich is.

Speaker 5 (27:52):
So crazy, I was. I was very out. Yeah, I
was very happy to be done with like sentencing when
the court because it was just I've been going back
and forth between LA and New York and New York
is it's a certain kind of energy and it's just
a lot of aggressive people out there in the line.
So you couldn't just relax. Every single morning there'd be

(28:12):
a fight. And the line is like Hunger Games line,
like you literally just because you pay all that money.
The last day in line, these people butt ahead of
me and I had to kind of fight for my
place in line. So I was inside the courtroom on
the last day.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
I really have enjoyed all of your reporting since I yes, yes, really.

Speaker 5 (28:33):
Thank you guys. That means a lot. It's really it does.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
And man, you really paid your dues and more so.

Speaker 4 (28:39):
That was not the answer I expected when I asked
what was going on outside?

Speaker 3 (28:43):
So yeah, hopefully.

Speaker 4 (28:45):
We will not be Hopefully we will not be following
your triald but seriously secret Samson group in Secret Service Sam,
all of our thanks, all of our gratitude for joining
us tonight and for your cover, which we have watched religiously.
Everyone you can catch a show Samson's World. It's streaming daily,

(29:06):
It's on YouTube. He dives into the biggest legal pop
culture stories. He's got a trademark mix of insight and humor,
which we all got to enjoy this evening.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
Big thanks again to Secret Service Sam for joining us.
Somehow I had a giggle, even though we were talking
about something so maddening and setting that I'd been raging
about all day.

Speaker 3 (29:28):
When did you say you needed it? I really did.

Speaker 6 (29:30):
I felt like, you know, really heavy today, and obviously
we were talking about something very serious, but he just
has a way about him.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
It was really I giggled and I'm happy.

Speaker 4 (29:39):
Well, and we learned after the break that he's actually
going to be if you happen to be in Los Angeles.
He is at the comedy is at doing a comedy show.
This Saturday at the Ice House in La So fun.

Speaker 3 (29:53):
He's so smart.

Speaker 4 (29:54):
October eleventh, This Saturday, ice House in Los Angeles.

Speaker 3 (30:00):
It's smart not to bring the party down.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
But you know, this key Lane Maxwell thing we're going
to continue to unpack in the next hour as well.
And then also later in the show Connor Powell, who
is an extraordinary executive producer and also journalist who's been
working with us on so many of our projects, but
also specifically on in Cells right now, and he has
some important stuff to be sharing on that front. It

(30:24):
all seems to kind of feed the same narrative in
some strange way. And then yeah, this story that's happening
in New York City, Midtown Manhattan with a sex dungeon
and very influential rich people apparently having another sex ring.
So we'll get to that as well. But first let's
let's start with the talk back.

Speaker 7 (30:42):
Yeah, Hey, girls, this is best. He's from Bridgeport, Illinois.
Enjoy your podcast. A little bit behind teacher, go a lot,
agree and do it nice. Anyway, I'm thinking the least
could possibly been part of a sex trafficking issue. You
I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are on this,

(31:04):
thank you and really enjoy your show.

Speaker 3 (31:06):
Oh well, thank you for the compliment.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
I hadn't even thought about that that would track for
tonight's stories. I mean that seems to be there's sex
trafficking happening everywhere, which is also something that we never knew.
Most people were not aware how many rings and sex
trafficking issues there really are happening right in front of us.
So interesting point.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
I mean, it's possible.

Speaker 6 (31:29):
I don't necessarily think, you know, that is what happened,
of course, lesson by the way, side, note today was
her funeral and it looked there were photographers there and
it looked like a beautiful service.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
She was laid to rest beautifully.

Speaker 6 (31:44):
So you know, our blessings and thoughts are with her,
her family which had to do this today.

Speaker 3 (31:48):
You know, it's a hard day for them. But as far.

Speaker 6 (31:51):
As the sex trafficking is concerned, I think the relationship
was Listen, I think it was more personal than sexual
graphicking would imply. And I don't know what that relationship
looks like, whether he was a big brother or like
a boyfriend or you know whatnot, but I do think
it was more personal personally.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
Yeah, it's tough for us all.

Speaker 4 (32:13):
Thank you again, and thank you for being a teacher
hero staying up late and you know, helping shape children.
It's a hard and important job.

Speaker 3 (32:23):
You know.

Speaker 4 (32:24):
You bring up an interesting point, and I think there's
just such a dearth of actual knowledge right now.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
So could that be the case. It could be so
many options.

Speaker 4 (32:34):
We just don't know until more information comes out, is
just how I feel. So you know, it will be
coming out more information as the investigation continues and all
of that.

Speaker 6 (32:45):
And I think we're looking probably just for a little
quick update. I think we're probably looking at another three
to four weeks for toxicology.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Which is not unusual. That's how long it typically takes.
So even with a baby rush and they're being so
much attention on this case, they obviously want to get
it right.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
So it just does take time.

Speaker 6 (33:03):
Right because it typically takes about, you know, four to
six weeks, and I think, what in a couple of days,
it will have been.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
Four weeks, So we've got some more waiting to do.

Speaker 4 (33:14):
But even for many cases we've covered, I mean I
can think of ones where it's eleven weeks, where it's
fifteen weeks, where you know, that's true, because Stephanie, to
your point to get it right, to keep testing for
the anomalies if that's what needs to be found. You know,
we've spoken particularly with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan of

(33:34):
this was found in toxicology. No, it's not the standard panel,
but forensically you keep digging and looking at your.

Speaker 3 (33:41):
Findings and seeing what might match up.

Speaker 4 (33:43):
So I firmly believe everyone's doing their job because, yeah, body,
there is a lot of attention on this and you
want to do it.

Speaker 8 (33:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Well, listen, you're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio.
Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moving, and listen,
jump in join the conbo eight eight, eight to three
one Crime. We're doing some talkbacks right now, so we
really want to hear from you.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
If you leave us one boom, you'll be on the show.
So let's go to another.

Speaker 9 (34:11):
Hi, guys, it's Cricket in Connecticut.

Speaker 3 (34:13):
I know we're digging into.

Speaker 9 (34:14):
P Didty today and I just saw some news about
the original P Didty Jeffrey Epstein and Gillen Maxwell and
Trump announced that he's considering pardoning her.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
What do you think.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
I'm just going to pray that we are not going
to see that happen. I really don't believe in my
heart of hearts that that will happen. I'm going to
hold out hope that we are in fact going to
have these Epstein files released, as was promised to us
by the administration leading into the election. I mean really promised,

(34:51):
and it wasn't really it couldn't possibly have been a
broken promise because you know, obviously Trump was in office previously,
he would have had access to these files, So.

Speaker 3 (35:02):
We had to have known what was in them.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Why would he campaign knowing what was in them and
making a promise that he knew he wouldn't be able
to keep. Everybody was so confident that these files would
be released, and you know, back to Secret Services point,
Secret Service, Sams's point, I should say, yeah, it was
it was Cash, Ptel and Dan Banby. Everybody was saying it.

(35:25):
So I'm going to really hold out hope that that
does not happen.

Speaker 6 (35:30):
Really quick, maybe I could read the exchange for the
everyone listening. So this happened in the Oval Office between
CNN Caitlin Collins and President Donald Trump. Collins pardoning Glainne Maxwell,
is that something you're open to doing?

Speaker 3 (35:46):
Trump? Who are we talking about?

Speaker 6 (35:49):
Collins Gilaine Maxwell, Trump, I haven't heard that name in
so long. I can say this, I'd have to look,
I'd have to take a look at it. I will
speak to the DOJ. So that's the exchange that everyone
is reporting on and talking about. And to me, it
didn't necessarily mean that he's going to pardon her or

(36:12):
that he was even, you know, super interested. He just
kind of passed it off as I'll talk to the DJ.
That was my impression, and maybe I'm wrong, but I
don't necessarily listen. I just think it would be so
monumentally stupid to pardon her, especially after you're holding on
to the Epstein files. I just, I just I think

(36:32):
it's a terrible look.

Speaker 3 (36:33):
But what do I know? Now?

Speaker 5 (36:36):
You know?

Speaker 3 (36:36):
Ups down? He uns down right now? Was a little
bit what it feels like.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
And obviously because of the current government shut down, sure,
there's no way to swear in our new congresswoman, who
would in fact be the two hundred and eighteenth signature.
She's even done a video saying, Hey, I am going
to do it. I just can't get sworn in and
you know, it seems like now this shutdown is going

(37:01):
to delay that further. And is it all connected or
am I just down the rabbit hole and can't get
out of it?

Speaker 10 (37:07):
No?

Speaker 6 (37:08):
I just I feel like it is. But I think
I'm in that rabbit hole with you. I think maybe
Courtney might need to dig us out.

Speaker 4 (37:14):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know about the connection. I
understand the similarities. Of course, there are many themes we've
spoken about between Ditty and Epstein. It's men, they're influential,
they are powerful. There's money, there's a subjugation of women,
there is abuse.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
False are friends with Donald Trump. Both are friends with
Donald Trump.

Speaker 4 (37:35):
Yes, all of these things.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
I mean, I don't know. It's it seems different to me.

Speaker 5 (37:43):
I don't.

Speaker 4 (37:44):
I do not believe that Ditty and Jeffrey Ebstein, to
my knowledge, we're hanging out and like they don't trade
in secrets about how to abuse women.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
But no, but it's just the idea that there were
open secrets. They also were both major open secrets. We
know this now that people in Epstein's world, both influential
world leaders, very important, significant people, knew.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
What he was up to. They knew what he was
up to.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
They gave him a sweetheart deal, he got a slap
on the wrist the first time. Let him out into
the wild to to really harm more women. And they
keep making again this like, oh, it's underage women. I
didn't under you know, I didn't give Jeffrey any women
who are underage her words.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
This is what Kayline Maxwell has said.

Speaker 4 (38:29):
You.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
Any woman that you hand over you knowing full well
that is for something nefarious that they're not aware of,
is unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
To me, and it just makes me so mad.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
So I'm just going to hold out hope that the
world is going to be right side up. It's this
full Moon's gonna do its magic, honest tonight.

Speaker 6 (38:48):
Maybe it's gonna give us a reset, a little bit
of a reset. Put your moon water out there in
charge the crystal girls. Let's like, you know that.

Speaker 3 (38:56):
What we have to do? What do we have to do?
You have to put an empty bowl of water out
on the full moon, and the moon charges the water,
it makes it moon and then I drink it. No, you,
I don't know what you do with it.

Speaker 4 (39:08):
Actually this is getting woo woo and weird, but I
kind of like it and I'm super intrigued.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
If you know you drink it. I don't think you
drink it.

Speaker 6 (39:18):
I think you put your crystals out and that also
charges it the special and gives them energy.

Speaker 3 (39:25):
But the moon water maybe it's like you put it
on your face. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
I don't know my face could use it. With all
this sad talk about stressful things.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
It's morning, quick the moonwater? What's the next talk bag?

Speaker 8 (39:40):
Good morning, ladies. This is Keim in Kentucky. I am
always a day behind, but I wanted to mention to
be careful with payment devices such as Zelle. I got scammed.
I sent money for item I did not receive set
of items. Banks said, it's basically considered cat so just

(40:01):
a little minder. I'm not sure what other apps or
payments are like that.

Speaker 6 (40:08):
You're looking at me, good looking anxiety Zel all the time?

Speaker 5 (40:12):
Great.

Speaker 3 (40:13):
I thought it was kind of backed by your bank.
Well it is.

Speaker 6 (40:17):
But if if if you take money out of the
ATM and go buy something and you get you know,
with cash money, and you get scammed, the bank it's
already left, you know what I mean, Like you're in
possession and Zell is like cash.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
That's why I've used it before.

Speaker 6 (40:33):
It's like going to the ATM and walking around with
twenty bucks in your.

Speaker 5 (40:36):
Hand or whatever.

Speaker 6 (40:37):
If you if you send that to somebody to buy
tickets to the sports game, right, it'd be the same
as if you had in them twenty dollars in cash.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
The bank can't help you, scam.

Speaker 4 (40:49):
Sorry this happened to you, but I'm so glad you shared,
and we should honestly put this on the list for
a future episode of just a Scam Alert or something,
because that is we all use, or many of us
use many different apps and just what to look out
for or how to do the secondary safety, you know, if.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
It's the secondary safety is the worst though, because you
have to remember the password and then it has to
get sent to the place that you never can remember,
and then you get to reset the password and you
start from scratch.

Speaker 3 (41:20):
Yeah. That war like you're out your money, yeah, or
you're at your money. But what it is, I have
a good trick for passwords.

Speaker 6 (41:27):
Really, it's a song like you know, I'm a Beastie
Boys fan, fight for your right to party. That's a
that's a that's a song title, right, I just picked
One'll just use part of the title for your password,
so f f y why you know what I mean,
like fight for your right to party and then add

(41:48):
like you know twenty three twenty two exclamation point question
mark at the end.

Speaker 3 (41:54):
Oh that's a very good Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
I try to outsmart myself each time and then can
never remember it, and then when I finally figure it out,
it's like, what was I even thinking in the first.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
Why do you use the Why would that be my password?

Speaker 6 (42:05):
You can use the same song and just take different lyrics,
but don't take the words from the song. Take the
first letter, or maybe you get it in your head
that you take the second letter. You know, but you
come up with the system and you'll never forget your password,
I promise, I.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Think honestly, the most irritating thing is the password today.

Speaker 4 (42:22):
It is do you do you know one password? The
number one and then password? I know I'm putting you
on this. You do do you have knee jerk thoughts
on it?

Speaker 6 (42:33):
I don't use it, okay, I know what you're talking about.
The software that stores are not use it?

Speaker 3 (42:40):
You're saying, Stephanie, I do not use it.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
No, I listen to whatever body says, but I would not.
I think it is sort of scary to have all
of your passwords, whether you remember them or not, in
any aggregated one place to just in the time of
days that we're in right now.

Speaker 3 (42:55):
Also, I'm reading that chat gpt is able to store
all of your.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
Conversations for infinity and they can be used against you
in the court of law should that need be.

Speaker 3 (43:07):
Of course.

Speaker 6 (43:07):
I mean, every time I love into chat GPT, I
have thought all my saved or not my saved, but
all my previous chats, and I've got them organized by folder,
and like, yes, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
We need to do like five thousand hours of five
thousand hours.

Speaker 6 (43:20):
But I mean I only use it for like this,
you know, or like, I'm not using it for anything crazy.
I'm like, create a snippet of Python code that does this.
But yeah, of course it could be used against you.
It's just like a Google search, right, right, that's.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
A good point. How did that light bulb not go
on before?

Speaker 4 (43:36):
I mean, Stephanie, how many times have we cited their
Google searches were in different documentaries?

Speaker 2 (43:42):
So yeah, wow, right, I mean, now I feel scared again.
I was having a giggle and now I feel don't
be scared.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
We need the moon water.

Speaker 4 (43:49):
We're gonna we're gonna start the recipe and get that.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
I just dunk my whole face in it, that is
for sure. So listen.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Next up we're going to be talking about this wild
case happening in new work, also a sex trafficking ring
allegedly allegedly allegedly and later. Connor Powell journalist is here
to talk all things in cells with us. He is
the greatest and.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
A family member of Katie.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
If you will, well, welcome back to true crime tonight
on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm
Stephanie Leidecker. Here, we have Courtney Armstrong and body move in.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
So we got the scoop about the moonwater.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
You leave it outside and then I guess you can
bathe in it and you can drink it, you.

Speaker 6 (44:37):
Can put on your face, you can splash water on
and it's supposed to give you like this lunar energy
that's supposed to be very calming.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
He listen, I.

Speaker 4 (44:45):
Need that, we all need. I mean, there has been
these headlines have been so heavy.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
What's going on is so heavy.

Speaker 4 (44:51):
We're really we are literally reaching for the moon, Like
what will make us any any solution in a time
and need, and.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
You have your way to vest back on. I don't
know where I put mine somehow, Well again, a hosture
is everything. Hey, it's so inspiring. Well, listen tomorrow is
talk back Tuesday also, so be sure to be leaving
us your talkbacks. Just download the iHeartRadio app please top
right hand corner. There's a little microphone icon. Press that

(45:21):
leave us a message and boom, you'll be on the show.
Or you could also hit us up on our socials
at True Crime Tonight's show on Instagram and TikTok or
at True Crime Tonight on Facebook, and then also later
in the show Connor Powell, journalist and producer and a
member of the KT family. We've done a lot of
projects with Connor. He'll be with us to talk more

(45:44):
about in cells. So that's always going to be a
tough topic, but with a great person to talk to
about it.

Speaker 3 (45:51):
And this case, I mean, where do we begin with
this one? Where do we begin with this next case?
Lay out the fat body.

Speaker 4 (46:01):
It's gob smocking, but let's just lay it out just
how we learned about it.

Speaker 6 (46:05):
So what we're talking about is this Howard Ruben case. So,
Howard Rubin and his former personal assistant, Jennifer Powers have
been federally indicted and arrested on sex trafficking, interstate transportation
for commercial sex acts, and related charges, with Ruben detained
without fail and his assistant has been released on bond.

(46:26):
So here we are again, like did he just got
sentenced Friday? And here we are Tuesday reading about this.
I'm going to tell you the story, but it's mind blowing, Okay.
So he is a former Wall Street financier, and he
has a history of unauthorized trades and a career that
included work for George Sorows. And he has long faced

(46:49):
allegations from multiple women accusing him of violent sexual abuse
and sex trafficking. So this case centers on Ruben's operation
of a sex trafficking ring for the last or for
ten years, from two thousand and nine to twenty nineteen,
involving the recruitment and abuse of women in a Manhattan

(47:09):
penthouse dubbed the sex dungeon with his assistant. So he
had this whole Manhattan apartment that was set up as
like a BDSM sex.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
Dungeon, which is unbelievable if you see the photographs. It's
really what you would envision in a movie, right, Like
it's red walled cross that people can be handcuffed to
all kinds of paraphernalia. Again, listen, if you do behind
closed doors is your thing, but this doesn't seem like

(47:41):
it's that.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
No, yeah, and listen to this. Okay.

Speaker 6 (47:44):
So there's an email from twenty twelve from his assistant
to him who again helped her allegedly helped Loure dozens
of women to him for abuse. She emailed him with
details and here's what she said. I've put chains on
the four points of your cross and four points of

(48:05):
the dungeon bed. On the end of each chains a cuff.
I've done this because it will be very easy to
just throw someone on the cross or on the bed
and just strap them into the pre made chains and cuffs.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
What. Yeah. No.

Speaker 2 (48:20):
And by the way, it wasn't like they were willing
participants in this, or if they were initially because maybe
they were a sex worker or or he was offering
real money or something. This got real gnarly and they
were being held captive and there were so many complaints
and they filed lawsuits against him and and this has

(48:41):
been going on for a really long time and is
a pretty big open secret. And this guy was a
very important successful financier in New York City and this
apartment is right smack in the middle of Midtown Manhattan,
and he had the second residence.

Speaker 6 (48:54):
He was basically threatening the victims with legal consequences and
he would make them sign non disclosure agreements and whatnot.
So and you know they listen. NDAs are not They
very rarely hold up in court because they're way too
broad and vague. I mean, they have to be so specific,
and so you know if you don't know this, So
when you sign an NDA and then something happens to

(49:16):
you and you're like, oh my god, I got to
talk about this. And then you're like, oh, you can't
talk about it because you signed an NDA, and if
you do, I'm going to sue you.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
Dada da whatever.

Speaker 6 (49:24):
You're going to be totally scared, right, You're going to course,
Oh my god, I have to shut up. Well, that's
what happened here. And eventually it's come out and they
were arrested and indicted.

Speaker 4 (49:37):
That it is torture again under duress and under threat
of being sued. If you say anything. But these women,
some of them have said they were shocked or electrocuted,
they were beaten, right, I mean.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
This is needed to go to the hospital. In some
cases they needed an immediate medical care. And the this
messy allegedly allegedly allegedly assistant Jennifer Powers if in fact
what she's being accused of is accurate. Similarly to Gilaine Maxwell,
her job was to recruit women. In her case, she

(50:14):
had to get them flights from whatever city they were
coming from. Say it's Las Vegas or say it's you know,
Los Angeles.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
Who knows.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
She was booking their flights, and then she was getting
them settled. She was making sure that the accommodations were
as is. By the way, these little events also used
to take place initially at some very high falutint New
York hotels. Between this and the Diddy Hotel stuff like,
I have never looked at a hotel again the same way.

(50:46):
These are fancy establishments as well. So then he decided
not to be down in the hotel situation anymore. So
this Howard Rubin then rents an apartment, a two bedroom
apartment in Manhattan, also so expensive dedicated only imagine it
is so expensive and it's.

Speaker 6 (51:05):
Dedicated to this, so I mean, obviously he's very invested
in this lifestyle, which okay, fine if it's consenting adult.
But he prayed on vulnerable women. Why I should say
they allegedly.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
Prayed on vulnerable women.

Speaker 6 (51:17):
You know a lot of them were suffering from addiction
and other traumas and whatnot.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
And this is who they're looking for, right these people. Yeah,
this is the playbook.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
I cannot believe that the assistant Jennifer powers that she
is not being held behind bars. I know nothing has
gone to court. I know everything is alleged, but you know.

Speaker 3 (51:39):
Well.

Speaker 6 (51:41):
It was an eight hundred thousand dollars bond to get
out of this, so it was a significant bond. But
apparently they're in trouble for other things too, not just
this sex trafficking. They have other charges. I'm actually trying
to find them right now. But I had just read it.
I think it's like tax evasion.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
It's tax evasion, yes, and it's also bank fraud and
it involves undisclosed.

Speaker 3 (52:08):
Payments and incomes, so that's also that makes anse.

Speaker 4 (52:13):
But I don't I have to say, and this is
nice coming, This is not coming from a good place.
So let mean maybe preface that, but I don't care
eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars. I don't care if
you are setting up the system in which you know
people will be chained and potentially electrocuted, I don't know.

(52:34):
Maybe it's a little bit of karma to have a
little bit of chains, a little bit of handcuffs, a
little bit of behind bars.

Speaker 3 (52:40):
If you did that for your boss, willingly.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Thank you, Courtney Armstrong. And by the way, this is
a married woman. We refer to her as an assistant,
and it kind of implies that she's this young, unassuming girl.
She's a woman, and she has a husband, and her
house was paid for by this Howard Rubin. He apparently
also came up on some very serious charges when he

(53:08):
was at what is the name of the firm bear Sterns,
allegedly in the eighties exactly by the way, Bear Stearns,
which is a very like major Wall Street bank, It
was like the top firm.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
Back in the day.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
Interesting, that's where Jeffrey Epstein got his start as a fight.

Speaker 6 (53:27):
Remember the financial collapse that we all experience in like
the two thousand and eight Bear Stearns was like one
of the cornerstones of that collapse, and so was.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
He, you know, so bear Sterns and like, yeah, this
whole time period, so Epstein was at bear Stearns in
the early days. That's where he was sort of kicking
off his big financier career. And he was therefore linked
up and introduced to very prominent and high profile people.
And then this Howard Rubin seems to be not too

(53:59):
far behind him, and it's pretty astounding.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
And he was actually brought up on.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
Charges allegedly, allegedly allegedly of three hundred and seventy seven
million dollars on a bad bet involving interest rate derivatives.
I'm saying that, I'm literally just reading that, so obviously
I have no idea what the derivatives' parts means. This
was in the late nineties, which is why he ultimately
left that job.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
I wonder if they cross mass.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
They kind of, doesn't it see timelines but right after
each other, doesn't.

Speaker 6 (54:30):
It seem I mean, minus the island and whatnot. Doesn't
it seem though, like it's the same setup. Yes, this
assistant Obviously, the relationship was different with Ebstein and Glen Maxwell.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
But it seems like the same kind of thing.

Speaker 6 (54:45):
Where the woman is used to lure other women, because again,
women are safe, right, We're mothering, we're caring and nurturing,
so we're the safe ones. Obviously, we're not going to
hurt you, right, We're not going to hurt you, darling, Like.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
Look at me. I'm a pro I'm a professional woman.
I'm just like you.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
Ooh yeah, And that's placebook the MOAV part. Wonder if
they knew each other. I think they all traveled in
the same circles. Of course they knew each other. They
had to have known each other, and they're running very
similar operations. Again open secret that nobody was talking about.
It seems like all of these dark things are coming
to light now.

Speaker 4 (55:22):
Yeah, well, these are some dirty circles we're talking about.
So we'll cleanse with moonwater later in the nights to
get some of this off. But this is true crime. Tonight,
we are on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtneying here as always with
Stephanie Leideker and Body move In. We're talking about Howard Rubin.
He's the former Wall Street financier and he and his

(55:45):
assistant have now been federally indicted on sex trafficking and
interstate transportation for commercial sex acts and it's really horrendous.

Speaker 3 (55:57):
We want to hear your thoughts. Eighty eighty three.

Speaker 4 (55:59):
One crime and also, gentle reminder, tomorrow is talk Back Tuesday,
and we do want to hear from you on really
anything that's in the news.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
Anything. If there's anything local in.

Speaker 4 (56:10):
Your life that you think we should be following, that
would be you know, good for the show. If there's
something you want us to dig into, We're really open
to having you help us shape the show, which you
consistently do.

Speaker 6 (56:21):
Or let us know how you use moonwater or that,
because I'm like dying to know. Yeah, okay, So back
to Reuben real quick. So, allegations first became public through
a twenty seventeen civil lawsuit filed by multiple women, including
playboy models, and they accused Ruben of sexual abuse in trafficking,

(56:43):
and from that a twenty twenty two so it took
five years a civil jury found him liable for trafficking
six women, awarding three point eight million in damages. Now,
she wasn't found liable. The system was not found liable
in this civil trial. But now, of course she joins

(57:04):
him in being criminally charged. And here's what I'm wondering,
and this is why I'm mentioning it. What changed She's
going to turn on him? Do you think, of course.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
Say herself, Yeah, I mean I would have to assume so,
because unlike the Epstein and Galaine Maxwell, and I'm guessing here,
I think Elaine Maxwell had a very very very high
profile people in her circle, and there would have been
a real hit on her back if she spoke up

(57:34):
or if she got out of line. So it doesn't
seem like Elaine Maxwell really ever turned on Epstein or Frankly,
on anyone. Right until the bitter end, She's like, nope,
they seem like great, they seemed wonderful because anybody can
get to Glaine Maxwell.

Speaker 6 (57:48):
But we don't know about the secret conversation that she
had with the DJ recently.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
We don't know what she.

Speaker 2 (57:53):
Said, the one that led her to this low security
situation that Glaine Man finds herself. And right now, one
thing I'm hoping though, the House Oversight Committee will also
now be interviewing Elane Maxwell, I was told today, So
that might bring up some new information maybe or maybe

(58:15):
would change her living arrangements. But this Jennifer Powers, who
is the assistant to this Howard Rubin. I'm curious, so
curious about their relationship. Again, she's a married girl, she
has allegedly children that have private schools that are also
being paid for by the funding she received from him,
and she obviously has a lot of dirt on them,

(58:37):
and she's looking at some real time and indictment, federally speaking,
is no walk in the park. So how long until
she turns on him?

Speaker 3 (58:47):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (58:48):
Well, here's what a special agent in charge at the
IRS said, because the IRS and the FBI were working together,
so the paraphrasing, this was not a one man show.
Rubin dehumanized these women with abhorrent sexual acts.

Speaker 3 (59:05):
Powers.

Speaker 4 (59:06):
The assistant is alleged to have run the day to
day operations and got paid generously for her efforts, So
eyes are wide on her, and.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
I still always wonder if not to go backward to Diddy.
I know we covered that in the last hour, but
you know, we never really heard much about KK.

Speaker 3 (59:25):
His personal assistant.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
That never been realized is not m Kardashi and KK
his assistant Christina Asta.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
I think it was Christina.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
I'm spacing on her last name in this exact moment,
but that never came to be because she much like
this Jennifer Powers, did all the cleaning up, did all
the arrangements, was getting the drug, all the things?

Speaker 3 (59:48):
Right? Did she turn? I don't know.

Speaker 4 (59:50):
Well, keep it here. We've got journalists counter Powell. He's
joining us. We will be discussing in Cells. We'll also
be hearing from you. Keep it here, True Crime Tonight,
True Crime all the Time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true Crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
Body move in.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
And we have our Connor Powell back with us in
the house. Connor, you'll remember, journalist, producer. He's worked with
us on so many of our projects. He's currently need
deep An in Cells, which has been a really scary
and in my case, very eye opening project period the end,

(01:00:40):
apparently I knew nothing and thought I knew it all
going into it, and suddenly we're in the rabbit hole.
And Connor is leading the charge right now because he's
on Reddit boards. He's like, I will Connor, you can
speak for yourself. Welcome back honor, Hello, out of applause.
Also extraordinary on Death Island, another one of our podcasts

(01:01:03):
on iHeart. But you know, Connor is just he's either
somewhere important in the world in like a war torn area,
doing very important stuff, or he's producing his own stuff
as an executive producer and creating his own content and documentaries.
And then once in the blue moon we can like
drag them back to slumt with us.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
So he snatched my exactly. Yeah, so welcome back.

Speaker 10 (01:01:27):
Connor, thank you, thank you. I'm just wondering, are you
guys taking a bill from my therapist after taking me
into the in cell world the last few weeks, is
that I send it to you, Stephanie.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
Yes, you can send it to me directly, Dear Courtney Armstrong, exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:01:43):
I gotta say, having been you know, Stephanie, I think
you put it well when you said thought we knew
something going in. This has been so illuminating and honestly terrifying.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
And sad.

Speaker 4 (01:01:56):
It's really been every emotion when digging in to this
world that really it exists and people need to know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:05):
More about it. But Connor, why don't you tell people
a little bit like what.

Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
You've been doing and how you've been doing it, because
you've been doing really specific work.

Speaker 10 (01:02:15):
Yeah. So, you know, I spent the last couple of
weeks sort of getting down and dirty into the in
cell world. I have to admit, after the first week,
what's ensure I wanted to continue it. I've never really
had that experience on some of the other projects we've
worked on and other things that I've done. I really
did actually say to my wife after the first week,

(01:02:36):
I'm like, this really isn't that much fun being this
sort of deep and dark into the in cell world.
And you know, you guys brought me on to sort
of reach out to in cells, to find different message
groups and to try to access some of these communities
online that you know are pretty closed off. They're not
groups that want to talk to outsiders, particularly women, right

(01:02:58):
and yes, And so I spent the better part of
the last sort of three to four weeks reaching out
to people signing up for in cell chat boards asking
permission if I can join. You know, it's funny almost
all of them had sort of a question and answer
requirement before you could join. Why do you want to
join us? Are you an inceel?

Speaker 3 (01:03:18):
You know?

Speaker 10 (01:03:19):
You sort of had to pass their tests, and I
tried to do it without lying, but at the same
time not saying sort of that, you know, I was
a journalist. Some of the groups I did access like
Facebook and read it perfectly fine. I mean, they're they're
a little bit calmer of platforms, right, But the incell
do is or Intel dot Co, you know, I think

(01:03:42):
that is the hardcore site, and that was the place
that I think really sort of just depressed me. It's
an old school message board for people who weren't there.
It really is a vile place full of lots of
hatred and anger, and I think that's where I've spent
the most of the time, you know, researching the last
like three or four weeks, trying to figure out and

(01:04:03):
understand the in cell community a lot better.

Speaker 4 (01:04:06):
But those places I had never I had never been
on an in cell forum until this, and I've been
doing true crime for quite a long time. I consider
myself fairly unshockable. But I literally, like you said, the hate,
the anger, the vitrial, the despair, the disgain and discussed

(01:04:28):
against women. The I literally could not believe the language.
And I've certainly heard a thing or two and I've
said a thing or two, but not not like this.
And we've also gotten to speak to all these all
these different experts from every different field and statisticians, and
we're talking about about one percent of men eighteen to thirty.

(01:04:53):
That's one in every hundred. It's actually closer to one
point six percent. So picture that's like two class to kids,
maybe three. You know, one or two of them are
in this world, and I think a lot of us
need to know about it.

Speaker 6 (01:05:07):
They're on the verge of entering this world too, right,
they're just teetering.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
And one thing that Connor does so well, and by
the way, we had all seen the movie Adolescence. I
know we're discussing it for our true Crime and Chill.
That really is something that put it kind of on
the forefront. And you know, popular conversation. We've been talking
about in cells for a really long time. And again
it's very closed off. But in my head I thought
it was like this little small sample of disenfranchised young

(01:05:36):
men who had a hard time maybe during COVID. That's
like the Pollyanna version that I had in my head.
The amount is pretty astounding, and Connor's done a really
amazing job about getting a real weighted scale of it
extreme and then also others, you know, not all in
cells are violent, not all in cell members are violent.

(01:05:59):
That's a very clear distinction. So there is like the
contributor or the person that you've interviewed that gives more
of a heartwhelming, heartwarming version of why, and then the
other side is unimaginable, right, and.

Speaker 6 (01:06:15):
Well, they defeed each other too, and they're behind a keyboard,
which makes it the feeding just a lot easier. And
while most people can turn off the computer and just
go live their life and be maybe in despair, you know,
others are radicalized by it, right.

Speaker 10 (01:06:31):
Well, I think in cell podcasts, you know that we're
sort of exploring with it is that it is one community,
but at the same time, there's lots of different segments
of the community, right, Like I think I kind of
went into it Stephanie was talking about as well, which
like I thought, I sort of knew what the definition was.
And you know, there's sort of the standard definition, right
like an involuntarily celibate person young man who has frustrations

(01:06:56):
with women. And then that's kind of like the beginning,
and then it opens the door and we go down
this path throughout the series about what does that actually
mean in real life? And you know, what I think
I discovered was that there's a couple of different themes
in groups. There are older in cells who are a

(01:07:19):
little bit more of a life experience. Some of them
have dated, some of them have had relationships with women,
but they've married married for three days, like one of
the ones we talked to, right, and they they come
to the conclusion and the description of themselves as in
cells because they've sort of realized that they don't believe
that they'll ever have a meaningful relationship with a woman.

(01:07:41):
It doesn't mean that they don't want to, It doesn't
mean that they haven't tried. It just means that they
don't think that they will ever be able to. And
they're a little bit more stoic, a little bit more
sober in terms of they're talking about their failed relationships.
There's a little bit also I might be to blame.
I might also have some issues. But then you have

(01:08:03):
this other group which is like, no, women are the problem,
they're the enemy. I'm not frustrated, I'm angry. I want
all the things that they have good in life are
taken from men.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Which you know, the root of it is really hard
to imagine too, because in many cases these are educated
young men that come from sometimes really lovely families. You know,
they have access to a computer, so they have a computer.
You know, they're they're in a basement, so they're in
a house in some cases. So it's like a surprising
subculture that's like happening in real time. I think a

(01:08:36):
little bit more than certainly more than I expected that
you had to really take that in one percent. One
point six is probably really where it's at. More than likely,
that's an astounding number. Connor, like, that's a lot of men.
And how do we protect ourselves as women, and how
do we you know, you know, not trigger this kind

(01:08:59):
of behavior, because again, we just saw this in the
case that we were covering yesterday in New Jersey. This
is an evolving story about the young man who mauled
down to girls on their bicycle and a vengeance, and
it seemed like he had some of these boxes checked
that would be in alignment with some of this ideology.

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
It just seems like it's dark. What do we do?

Speaker 10 (01:09:22):
Yeah, it is a dark world. I mean, I think
one of the things that when I've had conversations about
this project with people in the last couple of weeks
and I've said, you know, I'm working on a project
about in cells, and then immediately everybody's mind goes to
who is the most creepiest guy that they've interacted with
in the last couple of days. That guy's in it cell.
And I've had to actually sort of like correct people
a couple of times and said, you know, like, I

(01:09:43):
get that dude's creepy and it might even be dangerous
and he's totally odd. I was like, but that doesn't
necessarily make you an inseel, right, And I think we
do tend to pile on and overlap. But like that,
there there is a specific community which has given up
hope of ever having a relationship with a woman. Some
of these guys that are creepy that you interact with
are just creepy dudes who write fine girlfriends, wives, partners,

(01:10:08):
and they're not giving up. They're actively looking for women,
whether or not it's to harm them, to belittle them
to have a relationship that's unhealthy. But like, the in
cell community is a very specific group, and inside that
group you have all sorts of different people, But what
I found on the in cell chat boards was a

(01:10:29):
really dark place in which and I heard this from
a couple of different people, which is that they often
view the message boards the online world as their real world,
and their real world as something that is more fake,
something that is less real.

Speaker 6 (01:10:47):
And I actually wanted to ask you about it. I
actually wanted to ask you about that. And if you
have questions, give us a call eight to eight thirty
one crime. How do members of online in cell communities
view their online versus i RL lives and identities like
their real life identities?

Speaker 3 (01:11:03):
Do they separate it out, do you think? Or is
it the same? I?

Speaker 10 (01:11:08):
No, I mean I think it all depends on what
type of person you're talking to. Like I interviewed a
couple guys who are older in the late thirties early forties,
who again have had relationships and they describe themselves as active.
They try to stay away from message boards and chatboards
because they realize at this point in their lives how
toxic and how self harmful it is, you know, destructive

(01:11:30):
it is to them, right, But when you interact and
read the comments by younger ones, and you can sort
of tell the younger ones by the language they're using often.
You know, you know, adolescence is a fantastic show, and
I think it raises great issues. I'm not sure that
that kid is your stereotypical in cell in all, honestly,

(01:11:50):
I think I would agree getting closer to twenty early twenties,
and that's sort of seventeen eighteen nineteen, like, just because
of the access to dating and the ability to form
relationships outside of your own home, Whereas you get some
of these kids who are really toxic in the relationships
and their language, and they're twenty five year olds living

(01:12:13):
at home. They don't have a job, or maybe their
job is an online job, so they're always on their computer.
You know. You see a lot of comments about like
that on that insul dot I ask or where there
is just a lot of vitriol and hate. And that
online world for them is the truest form of themselves

(01:12:34):
because it's where they get to say and do and
be the person they want to be. Funny with their memes,
angry with their language.

Speaker 6 (01:12:44):
Yep, the mask is gone, right, they don't have to
wear that mask. They can just be themselves.

Speaker 10 (01:12:49):
Yeah, and this is true self, right, and you hear
that a lot, that that's their true selves. And again
I put it compared to some of the older ones
who said, like I was that person in my twenties,
I don't want to be that person in my late thirties.
I'm still inceel I realized I'm never going to have
a relationship with a woman, probably, but I don't want
to be that angry person.

Speaker 3 (01:13:09):
You know.

Speaker 10 (01:13:09):
One of the guys I talked to said, specifically in Brian,
is like, I actually do want a relationship. I don't
hate women. I'm frustrated with women. I've used language I'm
not proud of, but I don't actually hate women. And
another one is Venn said to me is like, some
of my best friends are women. And that kind of
blew my mind. It was it wasn't that they hated
all women. It's just they didn't think they would ever

(01:13:30):
have a relationship with.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
A woman, which is so surprising because you know, again,
everybody's capable of being in a relationship.

Speaker 3 (01:13:38):
I wonder where.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
That like really does start, where it's never going to happen.
It does feel like it's a bit of an epidemic
about loneliness. You know, I have to assume that COVID
and that time period has only exacerbated it, and we're
seeing sort of this aftermath thereafter. And again you should
definitely listen to the podcast. Need pontificating about it is,

(01:14:02):
you know, not the answer, but there is a correlation
to some degree. And you know, it's really just a
call to attention to change things, right, So a we
have to understand it and unpack it and then you know,
try to do better, and like, what are the things
that women should be aware of? Why are these men
getting triggered and young men especially getting triggered so early

(01:14:25):
in such a vi oral way.

Speaker 4 (01:14:27):
I mean, we do, we definitely do lay out a
lot of that, you know, with you said it was
a like a real wide spray of different experts to
get all the perspective and people who study literally you know,
different forms of in seldom as their livings, and there
are a lot of things that you can see early on,

(01:14:50):
like little behaviors that can potentially give you a heads
up of.

Speaker 3 (01:14:55):
What my warning.

Speaker 4 (01:14:56):
Yeah, we go into statistics and I love statistics because
it just talks about likelihoods. So we know without saying
your child, your cousin, your anything is an in cell,
that's not it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:09):
It Statistically, here's.

Speaker 4 (01:15:11):
What may incline someone to lean into that world in
anmbers game. So we lay that out as well as
ultimately you know so.

Speaker 6 (01:15:21):
Well, We're going to continue this conversation about in Cells
with Connor Powell.

Speaker 3 (01:15:25):
Award winning journalists and podcast hosts.

Speaker 6 (01:15:28):
Keep it right here on True Crime Tonight, we're talking
true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:15:41):
Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here always
with Courtney Armstrong and Body move in. And tonight we
have Connor Powell, executive producer and journalist who's been knee
deep working with us on our podcast in Cells please
downloaded on your iHeartRadio app. And Connor's worked on so

(01:16:04):
many projects with us, and really because he's a deep
dive journalist, right, so he essentially goes he goes down.
I mean, we did Death Island with him, and that
was an island where everybody died. When you move on everybody,
I'm really overstating here, but tourists would go there and
suddenly mysteriously die. And then Connor was volunteering to go

(01:16:26):
to Death Island Day one, just him and like a
like eyeglasses. Yeah, I was like, Connor, what are you doing?
And this is the kind of thing he does all
the time. So to hear you say that in Cells
even for you was too dark, is pretty extraordinary.

Speaker 10 (01:16:43):
How did you stay with it?

Speaker 3 (01:16:44):
Then? Why didn't you just bail?

Speaker 10 (01:16:46):
I think to say about this podcast with in Cels,
you know we know this word, right, Everyone sort of
has an idea of what the phrase is, but hasn't
really been fully explained. And I think you know, as
you listen to this podcast and you get into the
world of intellers, there's all these new phrases that are
going to start popping up. A trans maxine, looks maxim,

(01:17:07):
red pill black, There's all these phrases that you're like, oh,
maybe I've seen somebody talk about that, but I don't
really know or understand anything. And I think this series,
unlike some of the other true crime series where you
understand you know, murder first three, second degree manslaughter, you know,
a mode of an alibi, this series with in Cells

(01:17:29):
are is going to take you into some rooms in
some places that you've just never heard or thought you'd
be going into.

Speaker 6 (01:17:36):
Have you run have you run across people on those
forms that are transmasking at all.

Speaker 10 (01:17:42):
So I've talked to people about this, and I've done
some interviews, and it's best I can tell. It's not
really a true thing. Okay. That's why mask Maxine is
the idea that there are in cell men who view
that women have it sort of better in the world,
and so the best way out of your lot in life,

(01:18:05):
your situation where you're a miserable and unhappy in cell,
is that you should become trans and you should basically
assume the identity of a woman, because then you'll get
things like men to pay for you at dinner, you'll
get cheaper car insurance. You know. I spoke to one
person who sort of described it as is more of
a transphobic trope as opposed to a real thing. There

(01:18:28):
there are, I think potentially people who are like exploring
it as an idea, but as a part of the
trans sorry, as a part of the in cell community.
It's really just more used as a trope to sort
of a little trans people women in general. Right, like
the idea that women have it so much easier because

(01:18:49):
they get cheaper car insurance, right, that's kind of like, oh, look,
how great women have it, and that's sort of the
trope that they're using over and over and over again
on these message boards. It looks Maxine is probably a
way more true concept in the in cell world, and
that's the idea that basically, you want to look your best,
and you're willing to do things that might help you

(01:19:12):
attract women. You know, you are entering the world of
the chad who is sort of the derogatory term for
men who you know, have relationships, and so you'll do
things like chiseling your face or taking different drugs to
help with things that make you look better and things
like that, and that is definitely a way more probably

(01:19:34):
a true concept in the in cell world, and even
Adam not one hundred percent sure how many are doing it.
But there's also sort of a self harm that you
will go so far in trying to fix yourself that
you cause yourself harm, and therefore you're back in the
cycle of why am I doing this for women? I'm
doing this and I'm hurting myself and now I don't
have women, and now I'm just angry at women. So

(01:19:55):
there's sort of like this circular.

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):
Right like what you want so badly is what's making
you so enraged, which is sort of this double edged sword.
And by the way, if you're just joining us, you're
listening to True Crime tonight and we're talking about in Cells,
which is our new podcast that is out on iHeart.
We hope you'll check it out because Connor Powell is
with us and he has been he's been going deep

(01:20:19):
down this down in this topic. And you know, one
thing I think that was really interesting also on the
in Cell front, was just the idea of this algorithm,
right that you know, the dark web is really looking
for and targeting specifically disenfranchised young men who might be

(01:20:40):
susceptible to this type of thing. So remember when you're
you know, clicking away on Instagram or we're clicking away
on whatever it is we click away on, that algorithm
is feeding the beast and now you're getting more of
it and more of it, and it escalates and is
meant to escalate. That's like, that's the secret sauce, and
those I thank you guys do an amazing job of

(01:21:02):
breaking it down.

Speaker 3 (01:21:04):
Yeah, the algorithm is everything.

Speaker 4 (01:21:05):
The algorithm is everything, and there is definitely a very
deep dive on that and just hearing it from different perspectives.
And here's where a little bit it's Stephanie, you asked,
you know, what to look out for? How is it
possible to prevent There was one man, boysend Hodgson, that
we interviewed, and he's really wonderfully knowledgeable, you know, and

(01:21:28):
he drew the analogy. He's like, you know, you have
an eleven year old boy who goes on and just
I'm lonely. Well, ten clicks later because of what you
said as the algorithm likes to incite, to keep you
drawn in and keep you online because of course that's
how people make their money on their ads. But so

(01:21:49):
the content ratchets up and ratchets up. And several of
the self identified in cells who were incredibly generous with
their time and spoke with us as a way of understanding,
and every single one wrapped it up with I think
people need to hear from us, and so do we.

Speaker 3 (01:22:08):
It's important to understand.

Speaker 4 (01:22:10):
But it's just it's easy to accidentally click starting from
I'm lonely, Yeah, I'm sad. It just can start very innocuously.

Speaker 6 (01:22:21):
Yeah, it'd start innocently right, and then it just turns
into possibly a violent hate machine of just constant regurgitating
the same memes and tropes and reaffirming behavior. Right, and
you know you only those people are going to understand
your language, right, your fellow and cels.

Speaker 5 (01:22:42):
Well.

Speaker 10 (01:22:42):
One of the things I thought was like really interesting
going down deep into this world was so many of
the conversations about relationships about women about men are these
almost comical social media things. Like all of the women
they were describing in all out of these sites are
sort of the the Instagram model, right and saies. Yeah,

(01:23:06):
and it's like, yeah, this world only.

Speaker 3 (01:23:10):
Real world either though it's not the real world.

Speaker 10 (01:23:12):
Its on social.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
Media exactly, Like they're hating this a specific kind of
woman who they're seeing in their mind's eye as these
you know, beautiful, perfect, you know, Barbie types that are
being dismissive of them because they will never have the
Ken vibe and they call themselves you know, chads or

(01:23:36):
who they But again, it's like that's not the real
world either, you know, like everybody's putting this weird front
on on social media. It's very curating, this really curated
weird piece that we're all living in.

Speaker 10 (01:23:50):
And so many of the men that they idolize, who
are selling them recipes for success, you know, subscribe to
my whatever weekly email. My I'll do it. There's a
lot of life coaches out there that are not in
sells themselves, but are sort of selling that sauce, that
recipe of like you're unhappy, you're unsuccessful because you're not

(01:24:10):
doing this. These people are screwing you over. But if
you follow my path, here's a recipe for success. And
those life coaches they take some of these kids, I
don't say kids, teenagers, young men into some really dark
places very quickly, all to sell them, you know, medicines, vitamins,

(01:24:32):
self help books, real estate planning guides. You know, like
it just gets very dark very quickly. And so many
of these men, men that I researched, so many of
them are sort of failed businessmen. They've got a lot
of them have like accusations of criminal misconduct on the
real estate deals, or you know that they were getting

(01:24:52):
drunk and getting into serious fights, you know, fifteen years
ago and stuff. And so a lot of the men
that are held up as the sort of these are
the men you want to be are really problematic in
their own right as well. But they're the ones that
are being held up as here's the model man you
want to be.

Speaker 4 (01:25:10):
Andrew Tait is called out in by almost every person
we've spoken to as the archetype of who many members
of the in cell community they.

Speaker 3 (01:25:22):
Do, they look to, they aspire to, they will.

Speaker 4 (01:25:24):
Pay that money out that you mentioned Connor to try
and be more like.

Speaker 6 (01:25:31):
And that's problematic in and of its own right, the
whole Andrew Kate situation, that's very problematic.

Speaker 5 (01:25:37):
Very yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:25:38):
And you know he's not an inceel, right, but he's
like Noel influence.

Speaker 6 (01:25:42):
He's an alpha. He's an alpha in cell influencer.

Speaker 3 (01:25:46):
Let's say. Yeah, and is it just me like.

Speaker 2 (01:25:49):
There does seem to be this you know, really unmeasurable
uptick of the lone wolf, right, the single oh yeah,
young man who's taking matters into his own hands once
and for all. Hey, I'll leave a manifesto and take
somebody out and for some you know, message in their mind.

(01:26:11):
And that's really hard for law enforcement to track.

Speaker 5 (01:26:14):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:26:14):
So we're not really looking for groups online so much
as much as you're looking for individuals who have gone wayward.

Speaker 3 (01:26:20):
We're being sucked into groups. So it becomes really.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
Complicated to monitor as well. And I guess that was
another one of the scary things too, is you know,
again we're on the dark web not so much now,
we're just it's here. It's like in in popular culture,
it's now that we've said the word. If you hadn't
heard the word in cell before, I promise you you'll
hear it again and again and again. It's becoming common,

(01:26:45):
and these attacks are becoming common.

Speaker 10 (01:26:48):
I don't know how law enforcement, if you go on these,
like in cell chatboards, I don't know how you could
determine who's a serious threat and who's not, because the
language is so vile and a taller the place, and
it's just being thrown out. I mean there's there's no
you know, on Intel do COE or Intel do I
or even like Discord or four Chen, Like the language

(01:27:10):
is all vile, and so I don't know if you
were law enforcement, you could be like, Okay, well that
guy seems okay, he's not going to go shoot an
or but that guy seems like he's going to go
shoot on everyone, because like you can look at all
of the posts and say, all of these guys should be.

Speaker 3 (01:27:24):
On our radar, right, yeah, violent.

Speaker 2 (01:27:27):
Right, so many of them are living at home without jobs. So,
you know, for parents, is there something that moms and
dads should be aware of that they should be doing
just in a very simple form. I know we only
have a few moments, but was there some sort of
iconic takeaway?

Speaker 10 (01:27:45):
I think, you know, the I was also some on
some message boards where there were people who were concerned
about their brothers or their friends, and listening to those
stories and reading those stories about what trigger their concerns
about the you know, their brother or their their friend.
You know, it often was increasingly spending time alone, increasingly

(01:28:09):
being detached from their family, increasingly you know, they're they're
they're helped, their their appearance, right, was starting to slip
and things like So again, it's not stuff that's out
of the ordinary for concern for other people, right, you know,
their their their inability to connect with other people, their

(01:28:29):
inability to take care of their sort of personal appearance.
Like these are all things that would be concerning of
a fifty two year old man who's starting to slip
for another reason, right, But these are all things that
I think the people who have loved ones who they
were concerned about we're all raising as red flags, you know,
saying things that were out of the ordinary that they
weren't saying six months ago or two years ago. Their

(01:28:52):
their behavior was starting to change. I mean, those are
things I think that the friends and families were really
starting to hone in on about. These are the concerns,
These are what you need to look for if somebody
is going from an inceel on a message board to
somebody who might actually potentially do something more destructive.

Speaker 2 (01:29:11):
Wow, and you have to watch adolescents and you just
have to watch it. It's such a great setup for
this conversation.

Speaker 4 (01:29:18):
It is I'm just going to say a big takeaway
that was across the board and I got no solution
for this, but it was stay off of Basically this
community that you've now joined, where you feel like you're
being heard, but almost across the board also brings you down,
sucks you in deeper, You leave more depressed every single day.

(01:29:41):
This is both firsthand and clinical psychologist results.

Speaker 10 (01:29:45):
Well, I think one of the things that I saw
on the really vile boards, you know, discord, four chan,
in cel, is the anonymity, the ability to be someone else,
you know, just a meme or a fake name. Those
are the places where you really solve the problems because

(01:30:05):
those are the places where there is no sort of responsibility.
There was no restrictions on Facebook and some of these
other sites that do have some regulations, some restrictions. You
saw people using their real names and it was much
more calm, maybe still anger and frustration, but it wasn't
the same environment. And so like I think, if you

(01:30:26):
know those environments where they're able to protect themselves and
say whatever they want because there's no name associated with
that language, those are the places that are really the
most dangerous.

Speaker 2 (01:30:36):
Connor, we love having you here. I love being here
again again and again.

Speaker 8 (01:30:40):
O G.

Speaker 2 (01:30:40):
Connor has been with us, And make sure you also
check out the Opportunist podcast that he executive produced.

Speaker 3 (01:30:47):
Connor is the real deal.

Speaker 2 (01:30:48):
So we keep trying to drag them back into the family,
where like Connor, you can try to go off and
do all these big fancy shmancy things, but we're going
to keep dragging you back and dragging you back as
many times as possible. So check out in Cells and
remember it's talk Back Tuesday tomorrow, so make sure you
start leaving those talkbacks for us. Is download the iHeartRadio app.
It's been an extraordinary night. Thank you Connor for being here,

(01:31:11):
Thank you for listening True Crime tonight. We will be
back tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (01:31:15):
Stay Sae mad night

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