Justice Under the Microscope: Attorney Weighs in on Kohberger, James Craig, Diddy, Epstein & More

Attorney Jarrett Ferentino joins us to break down major legal headlines: Bryan Kohberger’s guilty plea, James Craig’s poisoning conviction, Ghislaine Maxwell’s offer to testify before Congress, and Diddy’s $50M bail motion amid talk of a Trump pardon. Tune in for all the details. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcomes True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We are talking true
crime all the time. I'm producer Courtney Armstrong here with
crime analyst Body move in. Stephanie Leidecker is out this
evening and we will muddle through somehow, though barely. It
is July thirty. First, we have a stacked night of headlines.

(00:39):
Veteran trial attorney Jarrett Farentino is here. He will be
breaking down all things Diddy Epstein and that dopey dopey dentist.
We also have updates for the Devil's Den and Travis
decker manhunts, and later in the show we're going to
be going into the shocking murder. It's a case that
some people are calling the Gods misfit murders. But first listen,

(01:01):
you guys have been sending in such amazing talkbacks and
voicemails asking legal questions about Brian Colberger's case. And I
know Boddy and I have plenty of our own, and
that is why we have Jarrett Farentino. He has a
veteran trial attorney. He has handled some of Pennsylvania's most
high profile murder cases. Now he is a national legal

(01:22):
analyst and a true crime expert, the co host of
the YouTube series Primetime Crime and host of the podcast
true Crime Boss. This guy does it all. Thank you
for joining us.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Jared, pleasure to be with you. How are you.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Oh, it's always so great. We're so excited to have you. Honestly,
you always speak legal ease so that we all can understand.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
Oh. Well, likewise, it's always a pleasure to be with
You're ready to answer the questions on all of these cases.
There's always so much going on.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
For sure. Listen, body, why don't you start us off?
Lay the groundwork of where we're going to begin.

Speaker 4 (01:57):
Right So, Brian Coberger he is a former criminally criminally, Yeah,
he's criminally and Brian Cooberger a former criminology student, a
PhD student in fact at WSU Washington State University. He
pled guilty on July second of this month to murdering
four University of Idaho students, Kaylee Consolvus, Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle,

(02:19):
and Ethan Chapin after they were brutally stabbed in their
off campus home in Moscow, Idaho, in November of twenty
twenty two. Sorry, I'm catch without Stephanie here babysitting Amy.
I can't catch my breath. It's hard, it's hard. He
was sentenced on July twenty third. We all kind of
had many shows about the sentencing, and so check the
podcast for all those. Coburger received four consecutive life sentences

(02:42):
without parole, plus an additional ten years for burglary, avoiding
the death penalty under a plea deal. And this plea
deal was very controversial because there didn't seem to be
any necessity to do any sort of elocution or give
any sort of confession. It was just sort of a
let's plead guilty and that's it. So there's a lot

(03:02):
of questions that have come up because of this, and
thank god Jared's here because our listeners have a lot
of questions, and you know, so do we So can
we just like jump right into it, you guys?

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Ready?

Speaker 4 (03:13):
Yeah, ye, okay, so vigorous. And Taylor is a really
good public defender. Well, she's a very good defense lawyer
and she was assigned this case, okay, because she is
one of only a handful of death penalty qualified lawyers
in Idaho, so luck of the draw she got Brian Coberger. Okay, However,

(03:37):
what is the ethical line? Because she stood up and
presented a motion in a closed hearing, thank god, where
four people were being blamed for this murder, and what
a week later he pled guilty? Like, what's the ethical
line here? Is there one?

Speaker 3 (03:58):
I can tell you? This One of the most frequent
questions I get. I was a prosecutor for twenty years.
I count defense attorneys as some of my dearest friends,
and that that may sound odd, Okay. One of the
most common questions I get is how does a defense
attorney defend someone when they know they're guilty morally? How

(04:19):
do they do it legally? How do they do it? Now,
what Ann Taylor was doing was dancing a tightrope. She's saying,
despite the fact that I may or may not know
whether or not or suspect very strongly Collberger is guilty,
the state is still required to prove that beyond a
reasonable doubt. If I can suggest plausibly with evidence to

(04:44):
the jury that someone else may be responsible I have
to at least pursue that theory to protect the rights
of my client. Now you may sit there and say,
what if Kolberger told her I'm one hundred percent guilty
prior to doing that, she has an ethic dilemma at
that point. She's supporting perjury. She's putting four things she

(05:04):
knows are false that could be a problem. So it
really boils down to body, what did Anne Taylor know
and when did she know it? And what was she
prepared to do with those ultimate defense theories.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
Well, that's a good thing that you brought up, because
that was our next question. How do they defend somebody
they know is guilty and we don't know that she did, right,
We don't know to Ann Taylor's benefit, Right, she's a
very good lawyer, she's by all means, we're not saying
that any chance that she knew he was guilty or
you know, anything like that is we're just talking, Okay,

(05:37):
We're just talking. So if she knows he's guilty, though,
if he did confess to her like hey, I really
did it, like you know it was me, and then
she gets up there and blames four innocent people, then
there's an ethical problem, and she could face perjury problems
with that. Is that accurate?

Speaker 3 (05:53):
Well, she wouldn't be committing perjury. She's not testifying under Oh,
she's arguing on his path. So again we're just now
attorneys have if they know one hundred percent of client
is guilty, they've made it a mission and the client
is pushing them to do something maturely dishonest. They could
withdraw from the case and say, look, I'm in hot
at the super I gotta get the hell out of

(06:14):
this thing, right, So I don't know that we were
there with that portion of the case. Her argument could
have been, you pointed the finger at Brian, you're required
to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and you ignored the
four plausible other theories, not even necessarily saying they're guilty
beyond a reasonable doubt. So it really depended on how
far down the road she was willing to go with

(06:37):
those theories. But she was dancing a very tight rope there.

Speaker 4 (06:41):
I could tell you she was taking a she was
taking a big chance then doing this, well, she.

Speaker 3 (06:47):
She could have been and then but again not knowing
how things develop between she and Brian Coolberger when he
truly came clean with her. You know that that's really
it's a nuanced conversation that really pierces the attorney client
privilege between both she and Brian Coolberger.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
I have one more follow up, and not to split
hair as Jarrett, but I've been kind of the one
particularly obsessed with this, and I will bring his name
up again. Kirknermi is a defense attorney and I've had
the pleasure of speaking with him, and he really helped
me understand just how big of an obligation when you
are defending somebody's life to put up a vigorous defense.

(07:29):
So within and again, we have no idea what Anne
Taylor knew or didn'td or you know what any attorney knows.
That's what privilege is for. But in this instance, make
believe that she indeed did know that Coburger did it.
Would it also be plausible and within legal bounds to say, okay,

(07:49):
even if that happened, isn't it also possible that person
A could have put some DNA or may have also
walked into the case, because part of what what she
was saying I believe was that someone potentially might have
planted it something. So couldn't both things be true, and
would that be a real legal defense.

Speaker 3 (08:10):
And again that's why it's nuanced. Could it be, there's
still required to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt whether
she knows or more likely than not suspects that Brian
did this, So you still have to hold the state
to that standard. Is it possible that he did this
and somebody planted something on top of that? Yes, two
things to be true at once. So again he's walking

(08:30):
that title. Here's a different conversation if Brian Colberger consessed
to her then got on the stand in live, whole
different story. At that point, she's subborting perjury. That that's
a whole different deal than what we're talking about. We're
talking about holding the state to its standard and the
width of plausible other theories or plausible other defendants in

(08:53):
the face of maybe knowing or suspecting Brian did it.
So the moral battle and the legal battle are always
being had in those situations.

Speaker 4 (09:02):
But I think the job that's going to be such
a hard job.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Well, to be death qualified like she is. If that's
no joke, that means she's a season trial lawyer. She's
been trained on death penalty cases and she's been a
part of one in the past, so this is someone
who's no slouch.

Speaker 4 (09:21):
That was my next question. What makes you death penalty qualified?
So it's it's additional training.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
Well, yeah, so I for a many years of my
life was death qualified. I had this addition requisite number
of felony jury trials and the training in death penalty
and capital murder cases. So that's what's required. It's not
there's murder, then there's capital. Right, It's not enough just
to send a license attorney in to defend the life

(09:49):
of a defendant. You have to be qualified.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
Right, Well, thank you. Those have been questions burning in
our pockets for a while. This is True Crimes Night.
We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong here as always with
Broddy Movin and we are joined tonight by veteran trial
attorney Jarrett Farentino. We're talking about the legal intricacies of
the Idaho student murder case. If you have any questions

(10:12):
for Jarrett, now's the time to call eight at eight
three one Crime and we actually have a talkback right now.

Speaker 5 (10:19):
Yes, Fello ladies, my name is Chris. I'm calling from
Portlain and Idaho. I did watch the sentcings and I
felt that Olivia was awesome. She did an amazing job.

Speaker 6 (10:32):
My heart goes out to all the families, and I
just was wondering. At the end the judge had mentioned
some kind of appeal that he could file, and I
was just wondering if you could maybe say a little
bit about what that is and what exactly it does
for him.

Speaker 7 (10:49):
Hopefully nothing.

Speaker 6 (10:51):
Thank you so much, have a great evening.

Speaker 4 (10:54):
So, Jarrett, just a lot of people want to know
about this appeal because the way it was presented to
the public initially is that Brian Colberger is going to
get four consecutive life sentences without the possibility approl and
he's going to wave his rights to appeal. But then
we're in we're at the sentencing and the judge says,
there's forty two days to submit an appeal. What can

(11:17):
you explain to us because we don't know either. It's
confused and our listeners is what is he talking about?
What does that mean?

Speaker 3 (11:23):
This is why people hate lawyers.

Speaker 4 (11:28):
I don't know if that's the only reason.

Speaker 5 (11:29):
Jared.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
Let's be right, so let's start off with this concept.
He has an extremely narrow right to appeal like the
head of a pin right to appeal. He has waved
the traditional rights to appeal. Someone in Brian Kolberger's shoes
are in. That's a good piece of information. He cannot
unwave or unwring that bell. However, there is a case

(11:52):
from the United States Supreme Court, ironically from Idaho that says,
even if you wave your rights to appeal, if a
defendant asked the attorney within that forty two day period
to file an appeal, the attorney is still obligated to
do it. That's number one. And what are the things
that Brian Coberger could still potentially appeal? Number one thing
is he could say his attorneys were ineffective and failed

(12:16):
him in some way. That's really the major one. I
don't see him going anywhere with it. He has nothing
better to do for the rest of his life. He
may try it, but the judge said, you would be
in breach of your plea agreement too if you push
this too far.

Speaker 4 (12:40):
Jared, you said before the break, if he does appeal,
then he breaks his plea agreement. What does that mean?
Does that mean they would have a trial? Does that mean?
What does that mean?

Speaker 2 (12:52):
So we're talking about the coburger.

Speaker 3 (12:54):
Oh sorry, I'm.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Very I don't have Jared for the entire night, and
so we want to get it all in. But if
you are just joining us, we're talking about the Idaho
student college murderers case. Brian Koberger was recently. He pled
out he is guilty of murdering for students and body

(13:18):
go with your question.

Speaker 4 (13:19):
Thank you so much Courtney for covering for me. Thank god.
But yes, so before the break, you mentioned that if
Brian Goldberger does file appeal, there's a chance that he
breaks his plea agreement. Does that mean anything legally?

Speaker 3 (13:32):
Well, look, what will likely happen is the prosecution takes
the position he's waighed this right, the appeal gets kicked. However,
the argument the judge is saying is you break that
plea agreement. It could go as far as pulling you
back and putting you on trial. I don't foresee that
as happening. I think that the violation of the plea
agreement alone would be enough to toss any appeal beyond

(13:56):
that narrow limited right of appeal that he has. So
that was really it. It sounds like biting words, but
I promise you nobody's going to back themselves back into
that courtroom because Brian Colberger filed some BS appeal, right.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
And that's kind of what I was thinking. Immediately went
to like, oh my god, does that mean, Like what
does that mean? Does it mean he'd get like death penalty?
Like what's happening? Okay, Okay, so it's just it's just
a formality. Then Okay, Wow, I got it.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Ok We had another question that again we have been
pocketing this where we've been talking about this case and saying, Okay,
when Jared Farentino's on, we'll find the answer. The court
finds so for each count, and there are four counts
of murder and one count of burglary, fifty thousand dollars

(14:41):
each plus and there's some additional costs thrown in. We're
talking two hundred and forty five dollars and fifty cents
per account and court costs. Who's paying those? What's going on?

Speaker 3 (14:53):
No, it's saying but if they do so. Colberger doesn't
have a dime. He's into gen he if he he
gets a job, he won't even get a job. In jail.
He's in there twenty three hours a day, twenty three
and a half hours in his cell. He's in a
maximum security so if he did get a job, for example,
some of those moneyes could be utilized for a fine.
A portion of the money goes to court costs to

(15:16):
the Idaho State Treasurer. That's what typically happens. If a
defendant pays finds then there's the concept of restitution which
is not included in that, which would be funeral expenses
for example for Ethan, Maddy and Kayley. But that's restitution.
But again, Colberger is destitute, so he's not getting any

(15:36):
of that done.

Speaker 4 (15:37):
But what if he decides to cooperate and write a book.

Speaker 3 (15:41):
Well, now, most states have a prohibition against a criminal
earning monies on their crime, profiting from their crimes, so
he would not be able to do that. Those money,
any of those moneys could be seized and taken and
paying fines would be paid or restitution. So that's a
good question. But like I said, there is pretty much

(16:01):
a prohibition on profiteering from your crimes if you're in
the position like Kahlberger.

Speaker 4 (16:06):
And those used to be called the Son of Sam
laws right in the United States and the Supreme Court,
and I think the nineties struck it downcing it was
unconstitutional because it violated free speech. It was too broad.
So then states kind of set up their own kind
of little son of Sam laws and idahoes. Basically is
that a criminal can't profit and if they do, the

(16:27):
families can sue for that money, which kind of stinks
because it takes some action from the families, you know,
like the families are good for the rest of their lives,
are going to have to be monitoring this this guy.

Speaker 7 (16:39):
You know.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
Well, but I think there's the law is a deterrent
to today he wouldn't see those money.

Speaker 4 (16:45):
Right right, go ahad.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
So I'm not sure if any of the victims' families
are planning to pursue this case civilly. No, is that
because in civil cases it's always monetary because it's not prisons,
there would be no reason too. Is that correct?

Speaker 3 (17:03):
Well, but what you're doing in a civil case is
looking for a responsible party that may have money if,
for example, and I'm not suggesting this, if the university
failed to secure the building or a portion of the property,
and I know something like that, like you're wow, he's
looking at things of that nature. For example, the Britney
Drexel case that I was involved in. They pursued the hotel,

(17:25):
Civilly and the defendants, so a little bit of a
different situation. But again you're looking for not just the slayer.
There may be other responsible parties.

Speaker 7 (17:33):
Civilly liable and Shannon Gray.

Speaker 4 (17:37):
Shannon Gray, who is Steve Consolate, well, the Gonsolvest family lawyer,
which is Kailee Gonsalez's family, one of the victims in
this case. He found a bunch of tort claims against
the University of Idaho, the City of Moscow, and I
think the Moscow PD I have to double check them.
Going from memory here back in June, I think of

(17:58):
twenty twenty three and I when those got filed, I thought, oh,
a civil case is coming. So I do think it.
I do think a civil case is possible, but not
against Brian Coberger.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Right, Well, he'd be he may be me, but again
he's not who you're pursuing. Civilly.

Speaker 4 (18:13):
You're listening to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Boddy
Movin and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and veteran trial
attorney Jarrett Farantino, and we were right in the middle
of talking about Brian Coberger case but we have a
talk back. Can we go ahead and hear that talk back?

Speaker 8 (18:27):
Evening Ladies at Cynthia from Canada calling, I'm just curious
in regards to the dentist who was convicted of administering
a noxious substance that eventually killed his wife. I believe
somebody had mentioned that he had attempted to do this previously.
I'm wondering if he was charged at that time with
uh that incident or incidents.

Speaker 4 (18:48):
Yeah, he did try he did try it personally or previously. Angela,
the victim in this case, confessed I believe, to her
either her sister or her best friend or both, and
said that you know, he had meant he she wasn't
feeling well, and he said that he was doing this
and he was doing this because he was going to
kill himself, because he had this sex addiction and he

(19:11):
was going to kill himself and didn't want, you know,
her to be alone because she would just be so
lonely and devastating. And in case you don't know what
we're talking about, we're talking about the Adobe dentist. The
Adobe dentist is James Craig. He's in Colorado. He's a dentist,
and he murdered his wife by poisoning you know, the

(19:33):
vizine drops that you know everybody uses, and put cyanide
in them, and then put drops of those in her
like little breakfast sake shakes that she would have in
the morning and.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
A little sorry snick took you got the mix right, right,
And yesterday he was found guilty of those charges, and
so let's kind of talk about these a little bit
because it's a very interesting case and he was just
found guilty.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
And there were a bunch of counts on this case.
He was found guilty of all of them except for
the manslaughter charge, and since we have Jared here, I
kind of wanted to talk about that, if that's okay.
So he got found guilty of murder. He got found
guilty of solicitation to commit murder because he was trying
to get the inmates that he was housed in jail

(20:15):
with to kill the lead detective in this case. He
got with his daughter and tried to get her to
make like deep fake AI videos of her, like you know,
of her mom, saying that she wanted to kill herself.
It was this case is kind of insane, and I
can't believe it's not getting a lot of attention. But
there were a lot of doctor Craig, Doctor Craig. Yeah,

(20:36):
And so there were a lot of charges that he
was found guilty of, but the one that he wasn't
found guilty of was manslaughter. And then something was suicide. Courtney,
do you remember it.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, it was manslaughter as a cause or of suicide.
But I would love to hear Jarrett, what are your
thoughts about this case in general?

Speaker 3 (20:53):
So, first of all, he is for a doctor, he's
pretty dumb, I mean to think as evil. Like there's
a special place in hell for poisoners. There's an even
special place in hell for poisoners out their wives. Okay,
so this guy in the cocktail of poisons, he hit
his white wib over a period of ten days, would
have killed an elephant. It's unbelievable what he did. But

(21:16):
the manslaughter charge. So, and as a prosecutor, you love
when the defendant tries to have the kilt that your
detective killed and tries to get people to lie and
you get those charges in in addition, in the same
case as your prosecution, it's unbelievable when you could show
this guy is so innocent. He tried to kill the cops,

(21:36):
and he told his own daughter to make a fake
video and got other inmates to do his bidding. So
it's a huge piece of evidence in a case that
was already very strong. The manslaughter charge why he was
acquitted because one of his defenses or claims was Angela
was trying to get him to help her commit suicide.

(21:57):
And if he did that, it's still ille eagle, it's
still reckless and would have resulted in her death. That
would be manslaughter, not first to be murdered.

Speaker 4 (22:06):
It's interesting because that was the defense strategy, like basically
to blame her, Right, she was suicidal, she was you know,
not stable, et cetera, et cetera. How often does it
happen that the state will include charges that basically are
the defense strategy in this in the case? Is that often?

Speaker 3 (22:28):
No, It's almost like an insurance policy on this thing.
That's what you tread lightly, and the other thing is
here's the other thing, Like he's a serial cheater, this guy, right,
he cheated on his wife all the time. They use
that as the reason she was so depressed. Like think
about how nuts this is, Like I know, not only
is he a poisoner, the fact that he's a cheater

(22:50):
is the very reason why he's not guilty of murder.
I mean, it's garbage, and this guy's getting everything he
deserves life to us thirty three years and that's still
an in And let's not forget.

Speaker 4 (23:01):
He also got tried to get one of the inmates
to go into the house that he gave that to
plant a journal. I think it was I mean, his kids,
Like he doesn't care about anything. He asked an inmate
to go into his house and plants journal. He gave
the inmate his door code, the layout of the house
where to put it. I just can't believe how reckless

(23:23):
he was while he was even in jail.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
It's just a twisted that is, when you're he's sitting
in his dental office, at no time does he say,
you know what, this is probably not a good idea.
In jail, he's.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
Still going It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
We are thrilled to be back. We are with veteran
trial attorney Jarrett Farentino. He is answering all of our
burning legal questions. Body where we're starting.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
Lane Maxwell, so Elaine Maxwell. She is has offered to
testify before Congress, but she insists on a lot of
you know conditions which seem very demanding to me, including
immunity and delayed timing before agreeing to appear. So they
want her to testify in front of Congress and you know,
name names, but she's saying, I will only if I

(24:22):
get immunity, and she has all these conditions. She was
convicted in twenty twenty one for sex trafficking and conspiracy
with Jeffrey Epstein. She is serving a twenty year federal
sentence and is appealing her conviction in the Supreme Court
because of this non prosecutorial agreement that Epstein had in Florida. Okay,

(24:45):
so there's an appeal in front of the Supreme Court,
and now she's trying to get some sort of immunity
through Congress. The House Oversight Committee, embroiled in public pressure
to open the Epstein related files, subpoena for her testimony
in August, amid by partisan demands for transparency. So she
has conditioned her willingness to testify on receiving formal immunity

(25:07):
from prosecution. That's one she insists the depositions not take
place in the prison where she's incarcerated in Tallahassee and
demands questions in advance to avoid surprise questioning. That's two.
She wants Congress to schedule her testimonily only after resolution
of her Supreme Court appeal. So after whatever the Supreme

(25:28):
Court decides, then she'll do it. I mean, like I said,
she's got a list of demands, and again that she's
doing all that based on her habeas petition in front
of the Supreme Court. Her attorneys reaffirm she will invoke
the Fifth Amendment if these conditions are not met. So
she is really playing chicken with Congress. It seems right.

(25:49):
What do you think about all this, Jared? No, Well,
I should add the most important piece. I forgot the
most important piece. I'm so sorry. The Oversight Committee has
firmly rejected granting immunity or clemency as a condition. That's
the most important thing I left off. What do you
think about this?

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Well, look, this is all. We're not looking at more
prosecutions or her testifying against one person. This is all
in response to the mounting call for transparency on the
Epstein case, which has spanned a decade at this point,
and several manifestations of the doj What do I think.
I think we're playing a game of cat and mouse here.

(26:26):
They want her to testify. You've got to give her something.
You can't just blanketly say no to her conditions. So
for the Oversight Committee just to say no and dismiss
her her request. Look, he wants community. She's sitting in
jail for twenty years. She's the only one really who's
been a consequence for any of this Epstein stuff. Epstein
had a little charge that he basically got a slap

(26:47):
on the wrist four years ago. He was a waiting trial.
But really, Glene Maxwell not to say what she did
wasn't serious. But if they want her answers, she still
has the right to take the Fifth Amendment. They've got
to promise her immunity or she's going to button up.

Speaker 4 (27:01):
So let's clear something up for myself and probably the
listeners too. When she says that she wants immunity, she's
not getting immunity for all her the things that she's
been convicted for already. Right, Like, they're not gonna they're
not going to pardon that. They're not gonna. She wants
she'll stay and she wants, well, no separately.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
She's asking for a pardon. No, no, she's asking for
a pardon to be let out of jail for what
she's convicted of and insulation for prosecution from whatever crimes
get revealed in her testimony. That so it's it's prospective
and retrospective. So she and she she has leveraged. Otherwise

(27:40):
it's twenty years in jail and I just sit here,
which is my fate as I accepted it six months
to a year ago. Anyway, Wow, so this thought came back.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
If they agree to this, she would be out.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
She could potentially be out if they If that's been
and she that's what she's asking for.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
And so Jared, she would get out. And then what
would be received is is the transparency. That's not to
say that's it, because I know the entire country has
been in an uproar, but that's all she would be given.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
Correct, Well, we don't know what that transparency means. Does
it mean subsequent prosecutions of other individuals. That's why, by
the way, body, that's why the victims of her sex
trafficking case are so upset. They're saying, you're taking the
word of an accuse, perjurer or not convicted, and you're
going to give her a break on crimes where they were. Look,

(28:34):
she had victims. She was the body of the blinding
of that deal. Okay, she was part of these crimes.
And to say she's not as responsible as Jeffrey Epstein
is to negate her crimes. And that's what her victims
are saying, because she wants a break on everything.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
I didn't realize that when she's asking for immunity. I
thought she was asking for immunity on things that she
was going to be testifying about. Not gone.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
There's a part of her question in there too, which
is why those families are upset.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
So what do you make of the fact. So again,
the Oversight Committee has firmly rejected the immunity or clemency.
So is that just a stalwart at that a deal?

Speaker 4 (29:17):
Baker, I'm guessing.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
I mean, well, look, it is the book ever closed
on Congress. Who knows right tomorrow it could be something else.
And the president has said. President Trump has said, no
one's asked me about this, and that was taken as
he's not interested in doing it. We don't know what's today, Thursday,
we'll do We'll see maybe Friday brings another.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
Right, very fair, And then one more question about this,
And we may have honestly already talked about this, but
I don't know that we did with you. Her appeal
is about going back to Jeffrey Ebstein's two thousand and
eight case in Florida. How does that, which is a stakecase,

(29:58):
how does she stand a chance in her federal prosecution
that she's been prosecuted.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
By because Jeffrey Epstein had a non prosecution agreement in
Florida with the government and Gallaine Maxwell may have been
part of that because of information he provided in that deal.
She's saying she is insulated from prosecution in New York
based on that non prosecution agreement in Florida. Lawn shot.

(30:25):
But when you got a written non prosecution agreement with
the Feds and you're sitting in federal prison, you might
as well take a shot.

Speaker 4 (30:33):
Well, I mean, the Supreme Court hearing it, there's got
to be something there, right.

Speaker 3 (30:38):
Well, they're going to define maybe they're going to define
the confines of these deals.

Speaker 7 (30:43):
You know, this is the.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Same thing that happened in Cosby, if you remember Bill
Cosby in a non prosecution agreement, not the same thing
with a DA an elected DA state DA in Pennsylvania.
A new DA came in and prosecuted him. The appellate
court said, whoa not so fast? Bill Cosby was let
out of the conviction was overturned because of that.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Oh that's a great point. I had not remembered that.
Thank you so much for interesting and interesting.

Speaker 4 (31:09):
We always learn stuff with Jared. I wish he was
here all the time.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
I know.

Speaker 4 (31:13):
Come on, I feel smarter already.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
And hopefully you do too. This is true Crime tonight.
We're on iHeartRadio. We are speaking with veteran trial attorney
Jarrett Farantino. He has been helping us break down everything
from the Coburger case to Glane Maxwell. If you have
any questions legally for Jared Farantino, give us a call
eight eight eight three one Crime. Okay, Now, Jared, I

(31:41):
wanted to ask you about Sean Diddycombs. So this guy,
he filed a new bail motion and he's requesting release
on a fifty million dollar bond, and he's saying that
his ex girlfriend Jane, who testified, basically provoked him and
that he shouldn't be at fault. What do you make

(32:02):
of this?

Speaker 3 (32:03):
Well, like everything in this case, it's exceptional. And that's
the buzzword when we're looking at the latest bail request
of Diddy. You need to show exceptional circumstances to be
released on bail pre sentencing if you're incarcerated like Diddy is.
He's claiming he's not a flight risk. The sexual acts

(32:25):
were consensual and despite the fact that he is a
brutal domestic, Jane occasioned some of that violence too, So
it's not as bad as what the judge is saying.
That's the argument to say, give me fifty million dollar bail.
I'll put my house in Miami up as collateral. Reconsider
this request pending my October third sentencing. That's what he's

(32:49):
asking for.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Wow, and is that pretty stand like that could be?
Would any defendant put that? I mean, take the fifty
million dollars off the table, But would any any attorney
would they go down this route?

Speaker 3 (33:02):
Well, I think it's an understandable route to take. I mean,
you have a defendant who was convicted of the least
of the charges he was facing. You have a defendant
who has been incarcerated since the day he was arrested.
You have him willing to put up collateral. He's no
longer a flight risk, as lawyers are saying, he's not
facing the kind of jail time he was facing to

(33:24):
be deemed a flight risk at that point. So there
are reasons to lodge this reconsideration with a straight face.
So I could see it. I don't think Judge Seremanian
is going to He's not let Diddy out thus far?
Why stop? Now it's August, he's coming up on sentencing
in October, and he's going to get clipped. So I

(33:44):
think it's like earn your time.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Yeah, well fair enough.

Speaker 4 (33:48):
Today was the deadline for the prosecution to respond, wasn't it.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
Yeah? I did see. Yeah, I saw their response. Basically,
someone said that the only thing except know about his
cases as wealth, as violence, and his brazenness. I don't
know if it was in the written filing, but certainly
they're opposed to it.

Speaker 4 (34:09):
They're not going to agree to of course not, of
course not. But Trump is saying that he would consider it,
right like Trump is more than open to partnering. Did
he but plans to wait for the judges ruling? Did
you guys hear that?

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Yes? So so so again? Did he is fun because
he may get it's a huge deal. It's a huge deal,
you know. And again the President Trump has said he
would consider this pardon post conviction, while did he still
sitting in jail. It would be mind blowing of that.

Speaker 4 (34:45):
But I mean, what you know, but what optics with
all this Epstein stuff going on, is that the smartest
thing for Trump to even say, like, I'm going to
let this do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (34:55):
I mean, I just you never know what he's going
to say. It is their relatable case, people with great
wealth acting out on women. He's trying to say in
one sense, he wants nothing to do with Epstein. He
was a garbage person, but he's going to protect Titty
who's convicted. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
But like you said, it's Thursday, so let's see what
comes on Friday and the tomorrow follow Yes, I understand,
we have a talkback.

Speaker 4 (35:20):
Can we hear he talk about Hi?

Speaker 9 (35:21):
So I was reading that Karen Reid still hasn't gotten
her car back or her phone, which seems a little
weird considering it's been like a month since this all
went down. So I was just wondering if that's normal.

Speaker 4 (35:33):
Yeah, just as a refresher. Karen Reid, she was recently
acquitted in June of this year of second degree murder, manslaughter,
and leaving the scene of the death of her boyfriend,
Boston Police officer John O'Keefe. Though she was convicted of
operating a car under the influence and receiving one year probation,
she was not convicted of his death or being responsible

(35:55):
for his death. So what is the process for that, Jared?
What's the situation there? Is it evidence or is it not?
Do they keep it? Do they not? What's the situation?

Speaker 3 (36:02):
Well, it is technically, but those are both major pieces
of evidence of course in the trial. If her attorneys
have simply requested their return, the DA's office is not
doing these folks any favors. They may require them to
file what's called a motion of return of property. And
that's a formal procedure where they say, here's the items,

(36:22):
these are the things we want returned. That gets the
tendency of a hearing over this, and a judge would
order those things returned in a case. Is like in
a case where I've had a firearm, for example, I
don't just really really hit a firearm back, I wait
for that motion to come in. There's a paper trail,
so they could be playing some games here or logistically
it's just a pain to get all this stuff back

(36:44):
to her in a short order. But I'm betting they're
just not willing to do her defense team a favor
without making them work a little bit.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
I mean, i'd imagine after I mean, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts,
who all of my friend the dearest people in my
life live there. But they didn't look great in either
of these two trials. So yeah, they probably really don't
want to do Karen Readney favors. But what about I mean,
she has been you know, she has walked out, she

(37:11):
is not guilty, and it was her vehicle and it's
worth you know, sixty thousand dollars. Are you just out
of luck?

Speaker 3 (37:18):
No, they should return, And I'm not saying they shouldn't.
I'm just saying they're probably going to make them way
as long as they can legally make them. They were
forced them to file a return of property motion, that's all.
But they have no reason at this point to keep
that stuff. There's no ongoing investigation. She's already been sentenced
on the case and the charge she was convicted of,
which was just the driving under the influence. So to me,

(37:42):
they have no reason to keep that stuff nor legal
right to keep it at this point either.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
Right, They're they're defining this silence from the DA's office
as bewildering because she did file emotion to get the
stuff back, but the DA has not responded.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
The judge will just force it then, Yeah, I think
that's right, or just for judge bev will sign an
order directing that these items be returned. And they're waiting
to be compelled to do any favors for Karen Reid.

Speaker 4 (38:12):
Yeah, I wonder if there's a is there bitterness there?
I think there's some bitterness there.

Speaker 3 (38:17):
Attack.

Speaker 4 (38:18):
Yeah, but I mean but these are professional people, right,
like I mean they have I mean, you know you
were you were a prosecutor in veteran trial, a journey
like do you do you do harbor resentment when this
kind of thing happens?

Speaker 3 (38:31):
Oh? Absolutely?

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Really? Ye take it personal.

Speaker 4 (38:39):
Well, that's all attacked though personally, so I can see why.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
Listen, Jared, thank you so much. It is always a
huge honor and pleasure to have you here and listen. Yeah,
everyone who wants more Jared who is everyone. He is
co host of the YouTube series Primetime Crime and host
of the podcast True Crime. Boss. Them both out until
next time, Jared, and later in the hour, we've got

(39:05):
more true crime stories we will be digging into. Keep
it here True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 4 (39:20):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we
talk true crime all the time. I'm Boddy Movin and
I'm here with True Crime producer Courtney Armstrong. Don't forget
if you miss any part of tonight's show, you can
always catch the podcast. We also want to hear from you,
so please give us a call at eighty eight eight
thirty one Crime, or get with us on our socials
at True Crime Tonight's Show on TikTok and Instagram, or

(39:42):
true Crime Tonight on Facebook. Later, we're going to be
digging into the really shocking case of the God's Misfits.
It's a shocking case where two moms were found in
an underground freezer. But now we're going to get into
some headlines from today. Courtney, what do we have?

Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah, there's quite a bit actually. In the Travis Decker case,
the sheriff is warning that someone sympathetic to him maybe
providing assistance helping him remain at large.

Speaker 4 (40:10):
So Travis would be sympathetic, DA I know.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
Listen, Travis Decker. He's a thirty two year old, he's
a former military veteran, and he is desperately wanted and
has been being hunted in connection with the June second
murders of his three young daughters, all under the age
of ten. And this it's been a multi agency man
hunt and the US Marshals have been involved, but the search,

(40:38):
the leads have been dwindling. So as you said, Buddy,
who would who? I don't know, but the fact that
he remains at large, it leads the sheriffs to think
that potentially that's the case. Sheriff Morrison said, unless he's
accounted for, there's still potential that he could be alive
and still actively fleeing from us. Right now, we're in

(41:00):
a pretty leisurely time for our country that you could
be outdoors or our county and probably live comfortably. You know,
the weather's not.

Speaker 4 (41:11):
And he's he's been through like the survival training is
part of his job in that entary, so he knows
how to bait a hook and fish and all the things.
I don't know how to do you know, like he
can survive out there exactly.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
He is very well, he is very well trained. But
you know, this is a warning that if someone is
sympathetic to Decker, he is wanted for killing his own
three daughters, and it's not a good look for someone
who may be aiding him knowingly or unknowingly. So I
don't know. And the authorities also mentioned they have no

(41:45):
evidence that he's acquired supplies or resources recently, so that
suggests to authorities that survival gets more unlikely without.

Speaker 4 (41:55):
That help, right, But I mean, is there the chance
that there's like a mountain man out there somewhere that
maybe doesn't know about this story and is helping him,
you know it something like that, like some kind you know.
And I'm not saying like, you know, mountain men don't
know what's going on in the world. I mean, like
maybe somebody doesn't listen to the radio or read a
newspaper or have TV. You know, maybe there's somebody out

(42:15):
there like that that's kind of befriended him.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah, I mean, listen, anything is possible at this point,
and he is still at large, So that's what's going on,
And we really just hope that he is found soon. Right,
what else have you been reading about?

Speaker 9 (42:33):
Body?

Speaker 4 (42:34):
Well, I've been yesterday I got alerted to this case.
There's a seven month old baby was found abandoned in
a front yard in Tennessee, and later that night, four
of her relatives, including her parents and her grandmother and uncle.
So those are those are the four people were discovered
murder and this prompted a homicide investigation. So on July

(42:56):
twenty ninth, deputies in Dyer County, Tennessee, respond wanted to
report of a baby girl left in a car seat
and a stranger's front yard near Tigret. The infant was
totally unharmed and identified as the child of Adriana Williams
and James Wilson. Okay, they're young, they're young parents. Later
that evening, the bodies of her parents, the two I

(43:20):
just mentioned, her mother, Courtney Rose, and her brother Bryden Williams,
fifteen years old, were found in Lake County, about twenty
five miles away. The authorities have confirmed all four deaths.
It's being treated as homicides. So here's what happened. Like, Yeah,
so a baby's dropped off at a yard. The homeowners

(43:43):
like what the heck calls the authorities. The authorities come
get the baby. They put out a bolo for mom
and dad, and then they find mom and dad murdered
in the woods, you know, with the baby's grandmother and
the baby's uncle. Now I say uncle, but the uncle's
only fifteen years old. This is a kid, right, So

(44:04):
your first thought is, Okay, the killer dropped off the
baby in the yard. Yeah right, absolutely, yes, like they
something happened. Don't know what, you know, but it's somebody
that did not want to kill a baby. And then
I'm thinking about this fifteen year old, like, oh my god,
you killed a fifteen year old. But the fifteen year
old can talk. The fifteen year old can recognize somebody, right,

(44:27):
This is somebody they know, right, So it's just really sad.
So this happened around three o'clock on the twenty ninth.
The witnesses reported seeing her dropped off from a dark
van or a white suv, which is very interesting, but
those are the two cars I think that the mom
and dad drove, so that's just what they were looking.

(44:48):
Remember I said they put on a bowlo, right, And.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
I was going to say it's very different a dark
van and a white well.

Speaker 4 (44:54):
The authorities have identified a suspect, Austin Robert Drummond. He's
about twenty eight years old. He's the suspect charging him
with first degree murder, aggravated kidnapping, in multiple firearm defenses offenses.
He's considered armed and dangerous. He was last seen driving
a white twenty sixteen Audie A three with Tennessee plate

(45:18):
r I one eight nine six that has damage to
its driver side. Nearly a dozen agencies, including TBI, which
is the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, and the FBI, are
collaborating on the investigation, and the public is urged to
assist and look for him. Go to X type in
his name Austin Austin Robert Drummond so you can get

(45:42):
a picture of him.

Speaker 7 (45:43):
He is.

Speaker 4 (45:44):
He's got a violent history. He is not a good guy,
and he's accused of killing four people. And it's being
tossed around that this guy, Austin Robert Drummond was dating
the mother the child's sisterm on so basically the baby's aunt.

(46:04):
He was dating the baby's aunt, but I don't think
that's confirmed as of yet. Okay, Okay, I've just seen
reports around socials about it.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
And you have to wonder. I mean, thank god this
baby was found in this stranger's driveway, and also that
this stranger had the wherewithal to not be a creep
and do what every you know, good human should be,
which is called the authority. But that has to be
attempted murder. I would imagine leaving you can't leave. I

(46:38):
can't know a car for one minute. I don't know.
Actually I have no legal standing to say that, but
leaving a baby, I would imagine. I would imagine that
I can say with authority.

Speaker 7 (46:49):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (46:50):
So anyway, that's all I have on that. Just please
go look for the guy on social media X, Facebook, whatever.
Memorize his face if you're in the Tennessee area, keep
keep your eye for him.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah, and we will keep you updated. You're listening to
true crime tonight. We are talking true crime all the time.
Right now, we're talking about headlines we want to hear from.

Speaker 7 (47:12):
You.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
Join our conversation with really anything crime related you want
to speak about. Earlier, it was Jared Farentino, expert legal analyst,
and we were talking about coburger to Karen Reid to
Gillen Maxwell, and we will have more ahead. So another
thing I wanted to run past your body is we've

(47:37):
been talking about the Devil's Den State Park murders. So
there's an update. Yeah, a twenty eight year old Arkansas
school teacher has been arrested. He has been charged with
capital murder in the stabbing deaths of the married couple
who were hiking with their daughters. And this happened actually

(47:58):
while we were on air. The information that has come
forth is about the suspect and that again he was
a school teacher. Also, DNA from the crime scene has
been confirmed to match James Andrew McGann, and allegedly he

(48:19):
had confessed during police interviews. Investigators also found items at
his home that were linked to the attack. So it
sounds it's early days, but it sounds like hopefully it's
the right guy with the strong case ahead.

Speaker 4 (48:36):
So I was reading a tweet today from Brookes. I'm
sorry Brooke Taylor, she's a Fox News correspondent, and is
it oky if I go over what she said? Yeah,
please because it's kind of maybe speaks to motive and
is very scary. It says I spoke with a mother
of a former student of the suspected murderer, the guy

(48:56):
that we're talking about, accused of killing the couple in
Arkansas on the hiking trail with their two daughters. James
Andrew McGannon worked in Texas for Louisville as an elementary
school teacher. In twenty twenty three, a mother of one
of his former fourth grade students said her son came
home complaining that he McGann, the suspect, was inappropriate with

(49:20):
the girls students. Oh no, so she filed a complaint
with the superintendent. As a result, parents received a letter
from the district saying that he was placed on administrative
leave while the school investigated complaints of poor classroom management
and poor professionals judgment. The investigation found no evidence of

(49:42):
inappropriate behavior with the student, but they did find classroom mismanagement.
I don't know what that means.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
That sounds that's tough because if you're reading this report,
because my first my knee jerk when you started explaining
that was, how in the universe is this man who
had complaints against him? How has he been rehired which
he had recently moved to Arkansas because he was hired

(50:11):
as a teacher Springsdale. That's right, he hadn't yet started
working with students. But if that's if that's what the
not paper trail. But if the allegation is mismanagement of
a classroom, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (50:26):
What that means. So they found that there was this
mismanagement in professional judgment to be below the district's you know, expectations.
According to this letter the parents received shortly after he resigned,
so he wouldn't he wasn't let go. He resigned. He
then worked as an elementary school teacher in Oklahoma until

(50:47):
he resigned there, so he went from Texas to Oklahoma.
He resigned in Oklahoma in May to move to Arkansas.
He was scheduled to start next week in Springdale for
the upcoming school year, and now he's accused of capital murder.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
How so, oh, bring the information.

Speaker 7 (51:10):
Taha, I'm just looking up.

Speaker 10 (51:12):
Mismanagement of a classroom refers to a teacher's inability to
effectively create, maintain a productive, respectful, and safe learning environment.
It doesn't necessarily mean the teacher did anything illegal or abusive,
but it signals problems with organization, behavior, or control.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Right, which could I mean could be anything, could be anything,
there's crayons all over the floor.

Speaker 4 (51:38):
Or there's did you guys see his lum shot?

Speaker 7 (51:41):
Oh no, scary, I just saw it.

Speaker 4 (51:43):
First of all, he got arrested while he was getting
a haircut. He still has the the you know that
cape they put on you that makes you look terrible. Yeah,
he still has the cape on. It is ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Oh my god, just look it up.

Speaker 4 (51:57):
He looks ridiculous. And he looks so mean, doesn't he?
I saw. I also saw his tender profile or his
like Okaycupid profile whatever. Oh my god, I don't. He
looks so mean. He looks so mean. I cannot imagine
him being a teacher to fourth graders.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
And how disgusting to have the wherewithal to say, Okay,
I have done this horrific thing. Let me go get
my hair done right.

Speaker 4 (52:24):
Now, the hairstylistic right now. The hairstylist posted on Twitter
or on Facebook, and she was like, I can't believe
I didn't even finish his haircut.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Oh good lord. Well, do not forget. If you miss
any part of the show, you can always catch the podcast,
and we always always want to hear from you. You
make the show better and you help us shape it
from everything you send in. You can call us eighty
eight three to one Prime and you can get us live,
or if it's after hours, we have a voicemail set

(52:56):
up like an old school nineteen eighties, so you can
leave that and the show. I mean, when's the last
time you had a voice saying hello? Or get with us?
On socials, we are at True Crime Tonight's show on
TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook. Courtney Armstrong,
I am here as always with crime analyst Body Moven,

(53:17):
and we are missing our beloved Stephanie Lidecker desperately. Hello Stephanie,
if you're listening, we miss you terribly. And now, Boddy,
we are moving on to something that you have followed
much more closely than I. So I may be peppering
you with questions, But what do I and everyone needs

(53:38):
to know about God's misfits?

Speaker 4 (53:40):
Gosh? You know I started following this my friend Stephanie
Niho turned me onto it. There are two Kansas mothers,
Veronica Butler, she's twenty seven years old, and Jillian Kelly,
she's thirty nine. They disappeared in March of twenty twenty four.
They just vanished. They were on their way to uh

(54:02):
pick up Veronica's children for a birthday party. Okay, Veronica,
Veronica had did not have custody of her children. They
were in the custody of her ex, and they were
on their way to his house, actually his mother's house,
because he was in rehab at the time. The stories
are kind of insane. They were on their way to

(54:25):
the grandmother's house basically to pick up the kids for
a birthday party, and they vanished, so vanished in at
the air.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
First of all, that's horrifying that they vanished, but also
so these poor children, their mother, Uh Veronica, I believe,
so she did not have custody, and then the father
who did was in rehab.

Speaker 4 (54:43):
Yes, oh, yes, tough spot. Oh it's a very tough spot.
So briefly, I'm just gonna go kind of briefly trying
to There's a lot of twists and turns in the story.
It's kind of hard to tell, but I'm gonna do
my best. So they disappeared while driving through rural Oklahoma
to pick up the Butler's kids for the birthday party. Now,

(55:04):
this visit was supervised by Gillian Kelly, Gillian Kelly was
a pastor's wife. She volunteered to help you know, this
mother reunite with her children very like, I want to say,
a very godly and loving woman.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (55:20):
It sounds like a warm and wonderful human being to
do that. Okay, so amid Now listen. The grandmother, her
name is Tiffany Adams. That is the father's mother.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
Yep, I with you.

Speaker 4 (55:34):
They were in a really, really acrimonious custody battle. Veronica
Butler and Tiffany Adams the grandmother. Okay, they're in a
very contentious Now. Wrangler is the father. Okay, Wrangler had
full custody of the children, but again he was in rehab.
So his mom, Tiffany Adams, was watching the children and

(55:57):
her boyfriend Tad Cullum. Okay, they lived together, they're friends.
There's so many people in the story, you guys. I'm
so sorry. I need, I need. I wish I had
a visual chart to show you, right.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
I know, we need some r.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Right.

Speaker 4 (56:15):
So they Tiffany Adams, who held custody of Butler's children
while her father was in rehab. Again, they were in
this custody battle from twenty nineteen. All the way until
the time she disappeared, with supervised visits granted to Butler
each Saturday. Now, the normal person that was, you know,
scheduled to supervise these visits, Tiffany Adams, was the one

(56:41):
that would schedule those. She dismissed that person. Okay, so
that's suspicious, right, that's suspecially so Butler Veronica, the victim
had to find somebody. That's why Gillian Kelly went so, okay,
that's suspicious, right, red flag, red flag, And now they're missing.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (56:59):
On April fourteenth, two weeks later, authorities found the women's
remains buried in a chest freezer about eight miles from
where their vehicle was abandoned. They found their vehicle on
the side of a road. And this is like a
really rural place of the country. If you go to
Google Maps and you look at this area, there's nothing

(57:20):
and there's just a car. So eight miles away, their
bodies were buried in a chest freezer. Investigators discovered blood spatter,
Butler's glasses, Veronica's glasses, a broken hammer, and a pistol
magazine near the vehicle. So these two mothers go missing,
and near the vehicle is a broken hammer, blood glasses,

(57:46):
and a pistol magazine red flag number two right, red flag, yeah, right,
and there's this contentious custody battle, like immediately you're going
to go to this family, like what happened? What's going on?

Speaker 2 (58:01):
Absolutely?

Speaker 4 (58:02):
Where's Veronica and Jillian? So an autopsy confirmed both victims
died from multiple stab wounds and their bodies were concealed
in the freezer.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
So sorry. So now have this abandoned car with the
two women who ultimately are found in a chest, Veronica
Butler and Jillie and Kelly, who's just there to help
supervise the visit these poor woman's remains, and their cause
of death is being stabbed, and yet by their abandoned
car was a gun magazine and a broken hammer.

Speaker 4 (58:37):
Yeah, and blood okay, but they were stabbed, okay. So
there were four people charged with this crime, and it
was of course Tiffany Adams, the grandmother, her boyfriend, Tad,
friends of theirs, the column I'm sorry, the Twomblys, Cole

(58:57):
and Cora. But there was a fifth person who people
were looking for named Paul Grice, and he was later
added as the fifth charge. All five are facing charges,
including first degree murder kidnapping conspiracy. Now you might be
asking yourself, because I would be what is this cult
God's Misfits come into it?

Speaker 2 (59:17):
Right?

Speaker 4 (59:18):
What is this? What is just God's Misfits? So all
of these people belonged or identified in some way with
this fringe anti government religious sect called God's Misfits. All
of them, which reportedly met weekly through the group's official leadership,
later publicly distanced themselves. They're not part of our church anymore.

(59:40):
These these people are killers, you know whatever. But they
were all part of this local chapter of God's Misfits,
which they're really kind of just anti government. Sovereign citizen
but very into you know, Jesus and God and you
know kings that are all really good. But I hated

(01:00:00):
the government. In fact, Paul Gris wrote like this manifesto
about how he is a sovereign citizen and he's not
able to be convicted of anything because he's nationally I
can't even explain somerersdons.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Oh good grief, Okay, So he's saying, no, I don't
want to be a part of this country, therefore I
can't be charged because I consider myself a citizen.

Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
Well, they're natural born. I don't understand it. I really don't.
I truly don't understand this anyway, So court Affi David's
really revealed the group plotted to kill them by throwing
an anvil from a truck in front of her like
a cartoon, do you know what I mean? So there
was going to be a truck in front of her

(01:00:42):
as they're driving down this road in rural Oklahoma, and
an anvill was going to fall out of the back
of a truck and hit the windshield and kill them.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
That was wild Coyote was to be there with Grandma,
her boy friend, the Cumeleys, and mister Grice, the non
citizen robby.

Speaker 4 (01:00:59):
Okay, so the grandmother, Tiffany Adams, purchased multiple prepaid burner
phones and stun guns shortly before the murderers, and those
were later found near the car in the crime scene.
The planning extended over weeks and weeks and weeks, with
holes dug in advance. Oh no, yes, so here, So
here's how it laid out. The grandmother dismissed the normal

(01:01:23):
lady that was supposed to do the supervised visitation because
she knew she was going to kill them and she
didn't want this witness. So she knew that Veronica was
going to have to find somebody in a you know,
completely innocent and they were going to kill them both.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Not only innocent, but someone who would take their own
time right to help supervise a visit. You knew was
going to be someone filled with kindness, right, Okay, So.

Speaker 4 (01:01:52):
Right now all five have been charged. Right now we're
in the you know, all the pre trial motions and
whatnot to some of the people that were arrested in
connection with this crime. The Kara Twombly and Paul Grice
have taken preemptive plea deals in exchange for testifying against others.
And the transcript is available if you want to go

(01:02:14):
read it. It's very interesting. I can't get into it
now because there's so much. Yeah, we only have a
few minutes, but it's available online even go read it.
On November fifth, there will be an official arraignment where
all five of them will present their official Please, they
haven't even been arraigned yet. This is all very kind
of new, even though it happened in twenty twenty four.
The trials for each of them are tentatively set for

(01:02:35):
early June of twenty twenty six. We are definitely going
to be following up on it here because I am
fascinated with this case and I wanted to bring it
up because I want to start talking about it. I
want to start talking about all these pre trial motions,
and I kind of want to talk about what they
said in their testimony against the other defendants. It's my
understanding that Paul Grice, he is one of the ones

(01:02:59):
who is testifying against everybody else. He was the one
that was the most violent, so for him, for him
to be testifying against the others is I really want
to start talking about it. So well, that's why I
wanted to kind of bring it up.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
I wonder, Okay, I'm so glad you did, and I
am so edge of my seat and I'm.

Speaker 4 (01:03:18):
Hopefully hopefully you can follow it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
There's a lot of players moving parts. There's a lot
of players. I know, Grandma's real bad so really boyd
friend and those and their friends, well and their three
friends in this God midfit, God's misfits. I'm very interested
to dig a little bit more. We should even before
they go to trial, Like, let's just set aside sometime

(01:03:41):
in the future and we'll go through and learn a
little bit more about God's misfits.

Speaker 4 (01:03:46):
You know, it might be it might also be interesting
to get like somebody who knows about the sovereign movement
on TAHA, what do you think about that? Could we
because listen, I don't really quite understand it all. I
know that they basically can say they can do whatever
they want. They can dry without a driver's license, they
don't have to be in the car registered. You know,
they can do whatever they want, but they can't be

(01:04:07):
prosecuted for everything, and they are then they they're supposed
to have some sort of maritime law. I'm not even kidding.
They're supposed to have some sort of maritime I have.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
This so I can park anyway.

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
I know.

Speaker 7 (01:04:21):
Yeah, I see those two If you go.

Speaker 4 (01:04:22):
To Amazon, you see those If you go to Amazon,
you can buy special license plates that that identify you
as a sovereign citizen and they say that it's supposed
to protect you from the police. But it's so funny.
The reviews on those items are like, this didn't work.
The police satterrested at me anyway. So I would really
like to learn more about what their claims are, because

(01:04:44):
you know, the guy listen, I'm gonna stop right now
that I can hear I can hear the music, I'm gonna.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
Stopay, well, yeah, I'm I'm all in. And I feel
like our beloved Stephanie might be buying what they're Oh
I think she might.

Speaker 7 (01:04:55):
She loves it.

Speaker 4 (01:04:56):
Called right now. If you want to give us a
call eighty eight thirty one crime, or send us a
talkback on the iHeartRadio AP, that would be great because
guess what it is talkback time. We're going to jump
right into some talkbacks. It's my favorite part of the

(01:05:17):
night because I really just love like the surprise and
the funness of them. Let's just jump right into it.
Adams at Adam's Choice and Control Room, what do we
got for us?

Speaker 11 (01:05:28):
Hey, lady Stephanie from Ohio. I just thought I would
put a suggestion for it for the Virtual Watching Club
to be Armchair Documentary Detective oh my, or it could
be documentary armchair Detectives, and so it could be AD
or Dad Club and that way it would be something
that would be fun and short to say, and we

(01:05:50):
all love a good definition, right all right? Thanks, ladies,
love the show.

Speaker 4 (01:05:54):
I love that one.

Speaker 9 (01:05:56):
I've already watched the Amy Branley documentary. But I still
want to be a part of it cool club. So
I've been thinking about names because you guys had a
call out about some ideas. So here are a few.
I came up with, Docu Detectives, Beyond a Reasonable Club,
the watch List, the Usual Suspects, and the Red String Society,

(01:06:17):
you know, like Corkboard putting all.

Speaker 4 (01:06:19):
Them, the Red String Society stopping. Okay, I love all
of these.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
I am dying over these. They're all so.

Speaker 4 (01:06:32):
The docu detectives, I love them.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
We're gonna we're going to keep them all on a
list and then we're just I don't know, we'll have
to go from there, but right now, I say every
single one. Oh, they're also good. They're all so good.
And I loved that the first talk back had an acronym.
I loved an acronym and this.

Speaker 4 (01:06:52):
I also really like the Red String Society.

Speaker 7 (01:06:54):
That's so cool.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
It's like something I want to be a part of.

Speaker 4 (01:06:58):
I know you too, right, how did you get all those?

Speaker 10 (01:07:02):
I wrote them down, but I'm going to go back
and listen to the podcast later and make sure I
get them accurately.

Speaker 7 (01:07:08):
Those are good.

Speaker 4 (01:07:09):
Keep them coming, maybe we can have like a contest
or something.

Speaker 7 (01:07:12):
I know.

Speaker 10 (01:07:13):
I started thinking of some, but now mine feel really
weak and compared. All right, just the concept of we're
all going to be watching the same show, and so
I had killer watch party.

Speaker 4 (01:07:27):
Okay, yeah, I like the listeners better.

Speaker 7 (01:07:31):
The listeners the betters. Yeah, I agree with you. My
other option was true crime and chill that okay, I
like that.

Speaker 10 (01:07:40):
One, or Crime and rewind for those people who are
you know, gen X or whatever.

Speaker 7 (01:07:48):
Okay, there you go.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
So oh instead of it took me a hot second
instead of be kind.

Speaker 7 (01:07:53):
And rewind ye, Crime and rewind Yes, and chill too.

Speaker 4 (01:07:59):
It's very to Netflix and chill. Right, Yes, I see
where your mind is.

Speaker 10 (01:08:03):
There was something there, but I actually agree the viewers
of the audience has some much better, so keep them coming.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
Everybody like that's true crime and chill could honestly be
depending upon who you would like to date, that's a
really appealing offer for someone. Hey, you want to have
a true crime and chill.

Speaker 4 (01:08:23):
Listen, that's a way to get me to come over.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
I was gonna say that would be you know what
I mean, Like you want let's tell me there's a
good documentary I'm coming that little chill for me. The
draw is slip.

Speaker 4 (01:08:36):
Into my DMS True Crime and chill in there.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
True Crime and Chill. Yeah, I love it. Okay, what
do we have.

Speaker 4 (01:08:44):
Next, Adam?

Speaker 12 (01:08:46):
Hey, guys, I am really looking forward to the new
book slash Documentary Club that we're going to be starting
here at True Crime tonight.

Speaker 13 (01:08:54):
And I actually have a request.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
For you guys.

Speaker 12 (01:08:56):
After the Amy Lynn Bradley Is Missing documentary. Netflix just
released new tapes with a Killer Son of Sam. Yes,
and you guys had kind of talked about David Berkwitz
before in some of your previous episodes, so I thought
that that might.

Speaker 13 (01:09:11):
Be a fun one for us all to watch.

Speaker 4 (01:09:13):
Thanks, guys, you better believe it. It's already on my list.
I'm way ahead of you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
That is a great idea, and we will be keeping
a list like definitely an actual list and adding to
it and maybe even voting on it as we go
two different months. But that is a great call. It
was at the top of my queue on Netflix, unsurprisingly,
and I saw just the trailer and in the trailer
it's police officers and they're in a car flanking him

(01:09:42):
and Son of Sam's about to get out, and he's like, oh,
when I get out, there's going to be reporters there.
Do you mind combing my hair? So that was that
guy's greatest concern as he's sitting with his hands behind
his back in the car. So great call. I'm already
into it, but.

Speaker 4 (01:10:01):
So into it. I'm so into it. And next week
there's a new documentary coming out about Delphi. And if
you know anything about me, I am that is my
Roman Empire. Delphi is my Roman Empire case. We all
have one, right, we all have that one case, and
Delphi is mine. And there is a new documentary coming

(01:10:22):
out from ABC called Capturing Their Killer The Girls on
the high Bridge, And so I'm going to add that
to our list as well, because I think we want
to do a whole breakdown of Delphi at one point.
It's probably coming up pretty soon.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
I think we Yeah, I think honestly it might even
be a night. It's so and I know it's going
to be a night.

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
I know this has been your case and it's kind
of it's a.

Speaker 4 (01:10:46):
Really long story and it's it's just not something I
can cover in a segment. Taha and I were talking
earlier today about maybe doing a whole show on it.
So maybe maybe when we do that, I'm going to
be a town in a few weeks and I'm gonna
probably watch it with Indy when I'm with her. But yeah,
I mean, it's listen. I'm really excited for this. The

(01:11:08):
family is in this, and also Kathy is in this.
Who is Richard Allen's wife. He is the convicted person
in this case, but there's a lot of doubts surrounding
his guilt.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
So interesting. So the family of the victims and the
wife of the.

Speaker 4 (01:11:24):
Suspect not together obviously, I mean separate. But yeah, it's
going to be an interesting documentary. I'm really looking forward
to it. So that comes out August fifth, so that's
also going to be on our list, so maybe we
can do a couple of months.

Speaker 7 (01:11:37):
We're going to have to the list.

Speaker 4 (01:11:39):
I'm excited for this, you guys, give a look.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
You know. One more thing I do want to throw
out because I think and this is going to I
think Monday's show. Taha, who runs everything really is in
charge of all of us. We have a guest coming
up and we're going to be talking about a document

(01:12:02):
Take a second, Actually, why don't we go to one
more talkback, Adam, and then we'll get back to Taha,
because I want to talk about this for a second.

Speaker 13 (01:12:09):
Hey, this is my first talk back. I been listening
to you all for so long and excited to have
something on a regular basis with all three of you,
but also excited to hear y'all feedback on the docu
series for Ammy Bradley and kind of thinking if it's
something that y'all make an additional kind of segment, something
like True Prime Docudive. I think that'd be great. Thank you,

(01:12:32):
hear y'all thoughts, and keep on listening.

Speaker 4 (01:12:35):
I like that name too, true Crime.

Speaker 2 (01:12:39):
I want everyone listening to help title everything. Do you
know how hard as someone as a producer who has
to title these things or work in a team. I
mean the amount of time energy people throw, like and
these are.

Speaker 4 (01:12:55):
All so good telling you the power of crowdsourcing. This
is this is a this is a tribute to that, right.
I mean, I'm pretty I'm a pretty smart gal, but
I'm an I'm very analytical. I'm not very creative, so
that's why I have to do these call outs like, hey,
I need help with creative and look how good these
people are.

Speaker 7 (01:13:12):
It's fantastic.

Speaker 4 (01:13:14):
Yeah, Adam from Control Room says this is better than
chat GPT.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
I that's how praise. That's high praise. I totally agree
when I have to say as a so to counter
that a little bit because I as a creative which
I don't know. I think I'm a little both braid.
You're pretty creative, pretty creative. Yeah, So as that, I
actually rebuke chat GPT for sort of writing I really do. Yeah,

(01:13:40):
but you guys are really the sauce.

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
I like it.

Speaker 4 (01:13:45):
Did you did you figure out what it was the documentary?

Speaker 7 (01:13:48):
I did?

Speaker 10 (01:13:49):
So we are going to be talking about the Netflix
documentary it's called A Deadly American Marriage.

Speaker 7 (01:13:55):
Yes, and I think you know a little bit about this.

Speaker 3 (01:13:58):
I do.

Speaker 10 (01:13:59):
But we have someone who's actually involved with the show
that's going to be on He's going to be a guest.

Speaker 7 (01:14:04):
So we're going to dig into that Netflix show. What
do you know about it? Because I'm reading I'm not
going to tell you. You're not going to spoil it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
Oh, well, it's really good if anyone because actually we
have homework, very very exciting. Homework is the best job
in the world that we get to do. That, but
we'll be watching it and again we'll be talking about
it with a pivotal guest who's attached. So if you
watch it or have, you should start with your talk

(01:14:32):
backs and we'll have an expert on Monday, you know.
So say the title again and where people can find it.

Speaker 4 (01:14:39):
Please.

Speaker 10 (01:14:40):
It is called A Deadly American Marriage and it's a
new Netflix true crime documentary.

Speaker 4 (01:14:45):
So it's really good.

Speaker 7 (01:14:46):
Everyone watch it, and we're going to circle back to
this on Monday.

Speaker 4 (01:14:49):
We have somebody very prominent in the case, right, I'm
not going to say who, but very prominent in the
case and who knows everything about it, and they're going
to be on the show.

Speaker 2 (01:14:59):
But again, between now and Monday, you need something fantastic
to watch.

Speaker 10 (01:15:04):
Yeah, we're going to have any free time with all
these documentaries I've got, I know, but these are great ones,
I know.

Speaker 4 (01:15:11):
So what do you what do you do for your Jaball?
I watch Netflix?

Speaker 2 (01:15:14):
Right, I mean, we're so kind of a dream, I know,
And do get to talk to people like Jarrett Fiorentino.

Speaker 4 (01:15:25):
Like Joseph Joseph I know.

Speaker 2 (01:15:29):
Our beloved Joseph at Morgan are forensic expert and actually
he will be with us. He will be with us
on Sunday, as he often is.

Speaker 10 (01:15:40):
Yes, we've got some good ones. On Sunday with him.
We're going to be talking about Jim Jones, which for
a lot of people who don't know that whole story.
And I know, body you first introduced me to a
lot about that one. We're going to dig a little
bit more into everything that's Brian.

Speaker 7 (01:15:55):
Colberger, so of course evidence that's coming out.

Speaker 4 (01:15:57):
I already sent like six emails to Joseph with my question, Yes.

Speaker 10 (01:16:01):
This, I think that's going to be good. And there's
a really kind of disturbing and sad story that's happened
in Ireland where they're uncovered a lot of the remains
of some I'll just leave it at that.

Speaker 7 (01:16:12):
They've uncovered hundreds of bodies.

Speaker 10 (01:16:14):
And I'm just going to leave it at that. But
it's a mystery that dates almost decades.

Speaker 7 (01:16:20):
Wow. So it's a really good one.

Speaker 5 (01:16:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
And Joseph's really passionate and man, when he's passionate about
a case, to hear him tell it in that gorgeous
Southern drawl.

Speaker 7 (01:16:28):
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
Yeah, Between him and his wife Kim, there are two
of the most like delifluous voices out there.

Speaker 4 (01:16:35):
So that was a fifty cent word. Okay, look at you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:38):
Oh it's very well. He deserves a fifty cent word,
Joseph Scott Morgan.

Speaker 4 (01:16:42):
He does. He's probably so annoys me with all my emails.
You guys don't even understand how I email him all
the time. I saw this in this autopsy report? Does
this mean I did this? And he makes me smarter?

Speaker 7 (01:16:53):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (01:16:54):
If you ever hear me talking about like forensic medical stuff,
it's because Joseph.

Speaker 7 (01:17:01):
Yeah, well, he is one of our favorites. I can't
get enough of him. If he comes every day, I
would be happy to have that because.

Speaker 2 (01:17:10):
He's always always. As a reminder, if you have missed
any part of the show, you can always catch the podcast,
and we also want to hear from you so you
can get us on socials. We are at True Crime
Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram, as well as True
Crime Tonight on Facebook, and you can always call us

(01:17:31):
during the show to get us live and together eight
eight eight three one crime, or you can call that
number if you're hearing this on the podcast, because you
can leave a voicemail and then it's the same thing
and you're on the show. And actually, right now we
have a message to get.

Speaker 14 (01:17:46):
To Hey, ladies, love the show. In reference to bk
being so stoic and non responsive, it gave me that
Michael Myers feeling when the doctor doctor Loomis said there's
nothing in there, he doesn't feel anything. I just thought

(01:18:09):
i'd share it.

Speaker 4 (01:18:10):
Oh, that's a really good reminder of that. Yeah, he
did say that in that movie. It's very very astute observation.

Speaker 2 (01:18:19):
It's super apt and right, listen, we agree, well, I
won't speak for a body but no, so that it's yeah,
and that it's worth looking into. And we had kind
of brought it up the other day. But next week
we are planning to have a body language expert dig
into Brian Koberger. Yeah, because his demeanor has you know,

(01:18:43):
so much has been said of it.

Speaker 4 (01:18:45):
Throughout the even at the premotion trial in hearings or
trial premotion hearings. He's been pretty stoic. He's never really
showed an emotion that we've really ever seen. Right, So
we're gonna have We're gonna have somebody a next week.
We're really excited We're going to go through all this
footage and talk about, you know, his lack of emotion

(01:19:05):
and what it means is what his little twitches mean,
what his eye blinks mean, all those nuances that we notice.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
And then let's see, you know, how long they're how
much time they're willing to give us, because honestly, I'd
love to get into a little bit of Karen Reid
because Karen Read's affect split the nation in half.

Speaker 4 (01:19:25):
That's a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
So anyway, thank you very much for the talkback, and
I believe we have one more.

Speaker 11 (01:19:32):
My name is Kelly from Miami.

Speaker 15 (01:19:34):
Thirty seconds is not enough, but I'll try. I'm wondering
if you guys can talk about the four people that
are murdered have been murdered in Tennessee and the baby
that was left. Oh my god, he was abandoned by
that murder. I mean, thank god he didn't kill the baby.
But there's so much to this story, and I don't

(01:19:54):
think enough people are talking about it, so I would
love to hear you guys' thoughts.

Speaker 4 (01:20:00):
Yeah, we just covered that. I'm really glad that you
left the talk back because it's going to give me
a chance to remind everybody of who to look for.
The suspect, Austin Robert Drummond. He is wanted. The US
Marshall Service has put out a wanted poster. I'm going
to direct you to the X account of the US
Marshall Service in Memphis. It's us MS Memphis at us

(01:20:26):
MS Memphis so you can get a good look at him.
He's driving a twenty sixteen white Audie with Tennessee license plates.
So go to Twitter X whatever you want to call it,
I still call it Twitter. I'm old. I'm never going
to change and go to us MS Memphis. But yeah,
that's very sad story. Obviously there's some kind of relation there.

(01:20:51):
It's being discussed that he, the killer in this case,
was dating the sister of one of the victims, right
allegedly thanks this, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:03):
It's all, but what the information that body? And I'm
so grateful that you shared it once more because honestly,
that's part of what we want to do, is we
want to be useful and good humans in this community
that we all share together and all be on the
lookout for each other and for the monsters who are

(01:21:24):
out there. So, you know, here's to hoping he has
caught before. We are back and thank you so much
for tonight and everyone. Yeah, that stuff says, be safe,
be good, and we'll see you tomorrow.