Karen Read Breaks Her Silence Post-Trial; Where Is Amy Bradley?

Discussing Karen Read’s first interview post–homicide acquittal and a new twist in the hunt for Travis Decker. Plus, diving into the mystifying missing persons case of Amy Bradley, the infamous Heaven’s Gate cult, and the tragic reasons why parents are suing ChatGPT and Roblox. Tune in for all the details.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. Happy Labor Day everybody. It is Monday,
September first. It is the start of a new time.
We have somehow seen the end of summer. Oh, here
we are, and I am just so glad that we're
all here together tonight. I'm stephie Leidecker. Body, go ahead,

(00:42):
give it to you.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
Happy for Pumpkin Spice season to begin, that's all. Let's start.
You can have mine. You've been saying that for a week.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
And of course, Courtney Armstrong, I have to be honest.
We have the whole team together right now. So we
have the whole crew. We have Taha of course as always,
we have Body, we have Sam and Adam in the
control room, of course Courtney Armstrong. And now tonight Ava
Kaplan making her radio and podcast debut. She's our associate

(01:11):
producer on the show here at Katie Studios and listen,
She's going to be reporting to us tonight for the
very first time live. So again, if you had an
amazing weekend, we want to hear all about it, And
if you had a cremmy weekend, we also want to
hear about that. And we're glad you're here with us.
It happens. Listen, I was like lazy bones today. It

(01:31):
was a weekend, right, So I hope you guys were great. Body,
you had a good one.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
I did. I had a great weekend. It was very relaxing.
I loved it. You had a proper couple days off.
How about you?

Speaker 4 (01:42):
I did, Although I was just saying I watched more
Summer House in one weekend than I should be admitting.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
That's okay, Listen. Myself included. I watch a little bit
of my Bravo today too, on a loop. Frankly, and
here we get to be together again. Not to belabor
the Labor Day thing, but I think we all should
say some intentions for what this upcoming season is going
to be.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
And look, we also have a stacked night of headlines.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Ava Kaplan here making her debut, because we all want
to know what happened to Amy Bradley. We watched the
documentary on Netflix. We're all super curious. She allegedly disappeared
off of this cruise ship and frankly, we want answers,
So Ava's going to give us some up to date
reporting on that. And then Body, of course weighing in

(02:30):
on the Heaven's Gate cult. I don't know if you
guys know about that one, but it is super intense.
So body's been talking about this for a while. She's
going to share with us more on that. And also
Roebox is back in the news. If you haven't been
watching the news somehow, Roadblox is all over it because
it is getting some kickback, some lawsuits and allegedly there's

(02:53):
some predatory behavior happening on this platform.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
It's chat.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Shept also up first conversation, so important that we have it,
and also some talkbacks because we're trying a whole new
format tonight. We are actually extending the show, so you're
going to get more show and more time for Collins
and you know, listen eight eight eight three one crime.
You should know that by now, or just leave us

(03:20):
a voicemail on that number. You could also leave us
a talkback on the iHeartRadio app. You could also just
catch us on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show
on Instagram and TikTok or at True Crime Tonight on Facebook.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
So there's no excuse. Jump in join the conversation.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
We want to hear from you because listen, we made
it to Labor Day, so let's bring in some autumn
and some fall, and luckily we get to.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
Do it together. Yeah. First we're going to go to
our talk back. Ironically.

Speaker 5 (03:48):
Hey, y'all, this is his name from Round Hills, Virginia.
I'm just calling to tell you, guys how much I
love your show. I started listening when I started marathon training,
and I am so. I find it so ironic, how
sweet and cute and relatable, and it's funny it all
can be talking about true crime. It's so great. So

(04:12):
I'm hanging with my best thanks.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
Oh, that's training for a marathon. I was like, cool
is doing a marathon?

Speaker 6 (04:20):
Right?

Speaker 3 (04:20):
So what is that marathon?

Speaker 7 (04:22):
Is?

Speaker 3 (04:22):
How much? It's like many miles?

Speaker 8 (04:24):
Right?

Speaker 3 (04:24):
Twenty six point two miles? Oh god, I can't even
run one, like, God, bless you. If I'm running, somebody's
chasing me with a knife or something.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, like a bear, like a bear, like a bear
bear is chasing us? Yeah, it's one of my brothers
and my nephew Andrew. They're iron Men. Oh they ran
the Iron Man, which is like much it's craziness, but
marathon runner.

Speaker 3 (04:49):
Whatever we can do to get you through your workout. Amen.
And that was so nice.

Speaker 4 (04:54):
Yeah, thank you for that kindness, serious because like it's yeah,
like life is hard and it's nice to hear nice
things now and then, you know what I mean, instead
of just like all the darkness and despair.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
So thank you so much for that. That was really
really nice.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
And I will say to that end, you know, we're
coming off a long weekend and everybody's doing their thing,
and it looks like on social media there's all these
barbecues and fun things and a million great amazing and
that's not the case for everybody, right, everybody's having their
own version of a couple of days weekend. So if
you're feeling a bit displaced, I'm so glad you're here.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
You're here, we all are.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, welcome to our kitchen table chat, so call us.
You're not alone. And if you had the best weekend,
tell us all about it. So yeah, I know, there's
Karen Reid back in the news. Indeed, what Yeah, Courtney's
gonna fill us in.

Speaker 4 (05:43):
So we haven't spoken about here in what feels like
too long to me, actually missing I do.

Speaker 3 (05:48):
I know, I don't believe you do, body, I don't,
but I do. I don't not miss her. It's just
you know, I get it. I get it.

Speaker 4 (05:56):
So gentle reminder, Karen Reid was accused of killing her
police officer boyfriend John o'keef. This was back in twenty
twenty two, and the allegation was that she ran over
him with her suv okay misstrial in twenty twenty four,
super high profile mistrial in twenty twenty five that finished
up not that long ago, and she's been acquitted of

(06:18):
all homicide related charges. The only thing was she was
found guilty of driving under the influence. So she's not
very happy right now. It's the first time she's spoken
out publicly since her trial ended, and she's a vowing
legal retaliation against law enforcement and prosecutors, and she wants

(06:39):
to publicly reclaim her narrative. So yeah, both her and
her attorney, Alan Jackson, who I thought was such a wonderful.

Speaker 3 (06:49):
Sis great lawyer. Oh he's a great lawyer.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Pretty magnanimous, like, that's kind of the lawyer that you
think of when you think in the movies what a
lawyer is going to be. Like, So Deddie devoted like
a dog with a bone and systemic.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
He just went through everything point by point and I
thought his case was great, and obviously so did the jurors.
But yeah, listen, they are planning a lot of civil
litigation Massachusetts State Police, Norfolk County's DA office, and even
possibly some individual investigators, which I mean, it makes.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Sense kind of child, but I don't think I mean,
can you sue for being prosecuted like that? Like, I
don't know that you can. They have like qualified immunity,
don't they from this kind of stuff. I don't know
that'd be I don't you know.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
That's something we should look into, though, because if they're
speaking about suing them, they attorney Muster looked in, you know,
looked into it.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
But it just than me. I mean, don't listen to me.
I just if everybody sued who was prosecuted and acquitted, it.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
Would be ridiculous. I agree in this instance though, Remember
what the defense purported was that these investigators is some
of them were potentially involved in the actual death of
John Keith and that they and that's framed care.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Exactly and by the way, that there was a potential
cant they know, we cover up. So there This has
been two trials, so as a reminder, the first trial
that Karen Reid went through was a mistrial, meaning the
jury was not able to come to a decision, so
everybody went home.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
But you know, lawyers are expensive.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Karen Reid at some point had a really important job
that she has since lost.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
She was also working as a professor.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
I believe also since lost that job, so you know,
here you are bleeding money. You know, from what I
can tell, She's also living back at home with her parents.
How cute is her dad? She had the sweetest dad. Yeah,
very sweet. But again, you know, the financial drain of
being accused of something right or wrong, but in this
case wrongfully accused of something not once but twice. You know,

(08:56):
she was at trial for you know, close to two years,
let alone the prep of that trial, let alone the
emotional toll of that trial. You've now lost your jobs,
you've lost your home. She can't even get her Lexus back,
that was the vehicle at the center of this crime.
I don't know why even she would want it back.
It's probably bad usual. But at this point she can't

(09:17):
even get her car back. So what is Karen Reid
to do? And we also heard reports not to get
on a tangent, but Elizabeth Banks, the famous beautiful actress,
is playing her in a scripted series unauthorized according to Karen.
So yeah, she doesn't appear that Karen reads on board
with it.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
But David E. Kelly, the guy that did I love
him and I.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
Love Elizabeth Banks too, so actually probably so good to
play her. Yeah, so, but she's not benefiting from that financially,
So keep in mind you have mounting legal bills, whether
you're pro Karen read or not regardless, right she it
has been found innocent absolutely of John O'Keeffe's death, and again,

(10:05):
our hearts are with the O'Keeffe family. They are, you know,
still trying to put the pieces back together. John O'Keefe
was also caring for his you know, sister's kids because
she they lost their parents prior to this incident.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
So that's a the lead.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
But secondarily, Karen Reid has also had to she had
to lose a lot.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
And you know, how do you financially come back from that.

Speaker 4 (10:33):
Well, she is planning to write a book, so I
think that may be one part of it.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
But you had to write it, you know, like even
writing whoa I was going to write a book is
kind of a big ordeal, right, that takes a minute.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
Of course she's going to be writing it herself though,
and that's very fair too. Oh is that what happens?
Like somebody else writes her book?

Speaker 4 (10:55):
Ghost ghostwriter or they can be you know, someone in collaboration.

Speaker 3 (10:59):
With but yeah, likely a writer.

Speaker 4 (11:01):
So yeah, anyway, that is what's doing with Karen Reid.
And this is Truecrime tonight. We are on iHeartRadio. I'm
Courtney Armstrong. I am here with a Body Movin and
Stephanie Leidecker and we're kind of going over all the
top headlines of the weekend. If you have any thoughts
or just want to tell us about your weekend, give
us a call eighty eight to three one Crime and Body.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
I think you have a little news as well. I do.
It's not a really big update, but for those of
us who've been following the Travis Decker manhunt, it might
be very interesting little tidbit. Investigators searching for Travis Decker again.
He's been on the run since June second, I believe
June second. He you know, in Washington and northern Washington
and Idaho near the Canadian border area. He's wanted for

(11:47):
murdering his three children, like his three little girls. And
just recently they found bones. They found bones, but they
don't know if they're human number one. And they don't
know of course if they are human, if they're linked
to Decker. Yet we're still waiting for that analysis to
come in. And you know, I mean, I can't even

(12:07):
believe they don't know if it's human or not. I
can't imagine like he'd be a skeleton by now, wouldy like, well,
if you're out in yeah, it's badly warm. I can't
mean you would be like if they can't tell it's human,
then it would be total bone, right, like like an
arm or something. Maybe.

Speaker 4 (12:25):
I don't know, Well I can imagine the animals out there, yeah,
just whatever kind of real scavengers and what vultures whatever
literally pick every single thing.

Speaker 3 (12:36):
I don't know, right, So they're they're looking at these bones.
Hopefully we'll hear soon if it's related or not. I
hope it's not him only because I want him found alive,
you know, to suffer. But you know we'll see, well we.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
Should say also this is in no means and excuse.
He is already suffering some tremendous you know, mental health issues.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
He you know, was a veteran.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
The idea that he would take his own children if
you guys were following this case back in the day
when we were covering it originally, you know, by all accounts,
he was like a stand up guy. You know, he
served our country. He was diagnosed with several things, post
traumatic stress potentially from combat being one of them. According
to his ex wife, the mother of these three children,

(13:20):
I mean again, hearts go out, hearts go out. I mean,
I mean, I don't even know how to go move
on from that statement. You know, she was trying to
do the right thing and let her you know, ex
co parent even though he didn't have a residence. They
went camping outside of the parenting plan. And tragedy really

(13:41):
has happened in a way that can't be described. So, yeah,
a where is Travis Decker? Can we hear from him
what happened and why? And then we also know he
was away from medication and hadn't been using it in
a long time. So June second to almost you know,
it's almost September. Seconds, there's no way he's still just

(14:02):
roaming in the woods.

Speaker 3 (14:03):
I can't imagine, I mean.

Speaker 4 (14:05):
There is I mean, he was trained for you know,
wilderness survival, and you know, given all of the man
hunt power that has been behind it, it's hard to imagine.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
But not outside the scope. Right. So the bones, again,
they were inconclusive as to whether they are human or animal,
and they have been sent to the Central Washington University's
Anthropology department for analysis, so hopefully we're going to get
some you know information soon. You know, what's interesting is
during this man hunt they found an overdose victim. You know,

(14:35):
in looking for Travis Stepper, they found a body of somebody,
an overdose victim. So, I mean, you know, this really demonstrates, though,
like the challenging nature of the train that's being covered, right,
like their en hard, they're finding other people that went
missing or whatnot along the way, and I think that's
I think that's pretty interesting. Wow.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
And first and foremost, we are wishing you the great
end to your Labor Day weekend. We hope it was
a good one, and we're so grateful that you're sharing
it with us. This is like a really new time,
kind of marks the beginning of a new season. So
if you have some intentions or some tales of your
summer to share, we want to hear them. Eight eight

(15:28):
eight three one Crime, just to kind of cleanse the
palette a bit. But in the meantime, we have Ava Kaplan.
Ava is making her associate producer True Crime tonight, KT
Studio's debut both on radio and podcast.

Speaker 3 (15:44):
Listen.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
She's the one that keeps us in line all day,
by the way, so we're so happy she's actually you're
going to get to meet her finally, and listen. She's
been following this Amy Bradley case just like we all have.
We all watch the doc on Netflix. Apparently Amy Bradley,
you know, mysteriously died while on this cruise ship and

(16:06):
America needs answers.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
In fact, the world needs answers. Ava, welcome to your show. Yay,
we finally get to hear your voice.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
She works so hard, so Labor Day seems wildly appropriate.
And yeah, tell us, what do you think is happening
with this? Give us the rundown? First and a little background.

Speaker 8 (16:27):
So I became obsessed with this case after actually body
suggested it to maybe watch for our Dot Club. And
then time moved so fast we moved on to other things,
but I stayed here. I stayed on the cruise with
Amy Bradley. I have not moved on me too, completely
obsessed with this case. So I'm so excited to talk
about it. And Steph, it's really interesting because you said, Okay,

(16:49):
maybe she died on this cruise. Many say she didn't.
Many say that she's living out her days in some
capacity in the Caribbean. And I would love to dive
in with you guys, you about all these theories about
what happened to her.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
So I think that let me just bury the lead here.
I think she's alive and well on an island, living
her most beautiful best life.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
That is the hope.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
I think that's the hope right generally speaking. But I
want to hear from you, what do you say?

Speaker 8 (17:16):
Okay, So just for some backgrounds, if anyone's not familiar
with the case. So in March of nineteen ninety eight,
Amylin Bradley, she was twenty three. She's an American, and
I also think a reason this case has stuck with
me because I'm the same age as her, Like she
was just finishing college, starting her career, and she was
on a cruise with her family, and yeah, she's relatable.

(17:37):
She's just like an American, a normal American girl. Her
family was so excited to grow go on this cruise.
Her parents actually won it in like a contest for
their work.

Speaker 9 (17:46):
Feel for them and.

Speaker 8 (17:49):
Long story short, I can get into the timeline maybe
if we have some time. But at five thirty am,
Amy Bradley's dad sees her sitting out on the balcony
of their little cruise room. So you know, every room
on the cruise has their little balcony.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
Amy and her can't miss it, right, like the little
cruise like little balcony if you're in the room, like
you see Amy on the balcony, clear as that's the last.

Speaker 8 (18:12):
Dad song exactly. So this was five thirty am, after
a night of her and her brother Brad like partying
on the boat. Okay, then Brad sees Brad is the brother.
The dad sees her the dad's ron, He sees her,
goes back to sleep six am. Thirty minutes later, Amy
is missing, literally never to be seen again. And there's

(18:33):
all sorts of series about what happened. I can walk
you guys through the main ones, because obviously the first
butt is she was out on this balcony, like, did
she fall off? Did she jump? This is what the
cruise line wants everyone to believe. And I'm not buying
their cruise ship propaganda because if she jumped off or
if she fell off, then it's not their fault and

(18:53):
then they can be like, have no anything.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
There's no liability exactly.

Speaker 8 (18:58):
That's what I was looking for. I personally believe that
she was traffic and she is currently being forced into
sex trafficking in the Caribbean, and I have evidence to
prove it. That was documentary, Amy Regard.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
Oh what are we giving?

Speaker 10 (19:15):
Waight?

Speaker 2 (19:15):
So wait, hold up for one second. So Amy Bradley,
your peer basically goes on a family cruise. Yes, suddenly
she goes missing. At six am. Dad saw her. She's
out partying with her brother, totally the most fun cruise ever.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
And then it begs the.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
Question, it seemed as those things were going really well
from her. She wasn't despondent, she wasn't in a horrible set.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
She just break up with her girlfriend. She was having
a breakup, that is true.

Speaker 8 (19:41):
There was thank you for bringing that up, Boddie. They
had just broken up, but they had plans to get
back together, as the girlfriend was interviewed, and Amy had
just bought a new dog, just bought a new apartment,
a new job. Yeah, so you know, really good for her.
And so essentially this is why I believe that she

(20:03):
is still alive and out on the island. Obviously, her
parents have been searching for her NonStop and have gone
above and beyond, like they've been on Doctor Phil, they've
been on America's Most Wanted, They've been like they went
back to the islands and did a whole like press release. Yeah,
there have been sightings over the years of people who
are one hundred percent positive that they have seen Amy

(20:26):
on various islands in the Caribbean since she's gone missing.
They've seen the wanted posters, they've seen her on Doctor Phil,
and they have since reached out to the family and
said I saw this woman. And all of the sightings
there's something in common, which is she's surrounded by gary
looking men who are watching her every move and she

(20:46):
is like kind of sending pleading signals to the people
around her, being like help me, literally, Ava.

Speaker 3 (20:53):
How many of these witness sightings do you know that
you know about?

Speaker 8 (20:56):
There were three sightings where she explicitly people were explicitly
like I saw Amie Bradley. And then there have been
a few other sightings that are like plausible, like maybe
it was her.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
Were they recent or old or so?

Speaker 8 (21:12):
They all kind of happened in the early two thousands. Okay,
and she went missing in nineteen ninety eight.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Okay, that's the problem. It's also an older case. By
the way, if you're just joining us, welcome to true
crime tonight. We're talking about Amy Bradley, who was featured
in the Netflix documentary We Want to Hear From You
eighty eight three one Crime. Because Ava is joining us
to kind of fill us in on what some of
the possibilities are that.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
She's still alive.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
And Ava's just been saying that there's been sightings of
her in the Caribbean by various people throughout the years.

Speaker 8 (21:48):
Yeah, So, okay, I can walk you guys through some
of the most compelling sightings in my opinion. The first
one is so the parents, of course, they have to
continue this cruise and then fly home without their daughter.
Obviously they're devastated. They're like, oh my god, what do
I do? What's going on? So they fly back to
the island Cirosaw is the name of the island where

(22:08):
the boat was docking when Amy was last seen, and then.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
Just off the shore of Venezuela. Deserving knows, like where.

Speaker 8 (22:15):
It's at, Yeah, exactly, And they do a press conference
and they have all these posters of Amy's picture and
say like, our daughter is missing. Whatever. A taxi driver
after the conference comes up to the family describes her
exactly knows the outfit she was wearing the day of, says,
jeans in a white shirt, which is what she was
wearing described on the flyer. It was where that might

(22:40):
be true, but it was the outfit she was wearing.
I think she had a yellow shirt over and then
she was wearing a white T shirt under Maybe I'm
not one hundred percent about that, but he says that
she tapped on the door of his taxi and asked
for a payphone, and then he showed her where the
payphone was, and then she walked in the opposite direction
of the pay phone. Huh.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
That's interesting.

Speaker 8 (23:01):
What do you guys make of that?

Speaker 3 (23:02):
What by the way you.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
Mentioned well you think, can I just say one thing
because I saw this actually just this weekend, ironically unrelated,
slight tangent, go with me, because you were saying Ava
that she was giving like signals to people that like, hey,
this is not cool, and I saw I think on
social media that for women, especially if you're in a

(23:24):
situation where you feel as though you're being held hostage basically,
but you're in the public eye and you want to
give another woman or man a signal, you're supposed to
go behind your back with your hand, your right arm
and put the number two up against your back and
that is supposed to be a signal to the person.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
Walking behind you that you might be in harm's way.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Slight tangent, moving on, Amy Bradley genuinely didn't do that,
but just something to know moving forward.

Speaker 8 (23:55):
Anyway, Well, it's crazy because she didn't do that. But
there's one sighting a former US Navy officer who went
to an illicit brothel and he says that he didn't
report this at the time because he wasn't supposed to
be at the brothel because he was like an on
duty Navy officer. But he sits down. There's two women,
two guys. They're having a drink in this bar, and

(24:16):
when everyone else walks away to get a drink, the
one of the two women literally says to him, my
name is Amy Bradley. I'm being held hosted. Can you
help me?

Speaker 3 (24:24):
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 8 (24:25):
Yeah, So she didn't need to do a signal. She
according to the point, she literally said that, and he
didn't report it because he didn't want to get in
trouble for like bringing up this.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
Play hard time believing those kinds of people. I do.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
I just have had a moment, by the way, consciousness,
I just spent a long time, right.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
Did he report this years later?

Speaker 8 (24:45):
Oh my goodness, yeah, after he retired.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
I just want to let everybody know. I just checked
for the original missing person's flyer and what she was
wearing is not on it. So that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
Okay, okay, So she was sighted in a white T
shirt and jeans, which is what this you know, this
you know firsthand person witness says he saw her in,
which is in fact what she was wearing. So that
tracks great, little digging in real time body nice.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah, Okay, more.

Speaker 8 (25:19):
Okay, So obviously that's a big one, and Boddy, I
kind of feel you on that, like do we really
believe this guy? But apparently, like he went to the FBI,
they did a polygraph ten like he said in the
documentary that the FBI believes him to whatever extent they can,
so you know, and then okay, the third sighting, which
I think is the most compelling, is in there was

(25:40):
a woman who was on a cruise. She gets off
the crew. She's in Barbados and she's having dinner at
this place. She goes to the bathroom. She sees Amy Bradley,
who she doesn't obviously know what's Amy Bradley, but she
sees a woman with two kind of scary looking men
and they're saying things like, oh like something about the deal.

(26:00):
The men leave. Amy goes to the bathroom. Obviously something's wrong,
like she looks like she's crying. The woman, she's an
American woman, can tell that something's weird. She goes, she
tries to make conversation and Amy doesn't answer. At first,
the only thing she says is my name is Amy.
And then when she tries to leave the bathroom, like
there's a man literally waiting outside, like directly outside the

(26:22):
bathroom door for Amy and like escorts her out of
the room. So she's literally being like watched and managed.
It seems like twenty four to seven. And Okay, my
favorite detail about this. Amy reportedly says to one of
these guys, can we stop and see the kids? And
the man is like, yeah, we can stop and see

(26:44):
the kids. And some people think that she has had
kids since she's been sex traffic because it's been like
twenty something years, and that these kids are the reason
why she's not like reaching out trying to leave the
island because she's fearing for her children's safety.

Speaker 4 (26:59):
Was very she was very compelling, believable, seemed to have
is no reason, you know, to make up a story
and have very specific memories. And then also I wanted
to say, because I'm actually definitely with you on this theory,
and part of why is it didn't make sense really
that she fell or jumped because also the tides in parasol.

(27:22):
I'm saying it properly, Yeah, that one hundred percent a
body would have in the come ashore.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
The police chief said that he was like, that's right.
The only way a body is in the ocean, is
if we get it here like in this area. And
there's two parts of this.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
So her brother, who was obviously with her the night
that she went missing, has been all over social media.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
Body you've talked a lot about that as well.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
And keep in mind, we say the word trafficking very loosely,
so in case you don't know what trafficking is, imagine
you're a young, beautiful woman, as Amy Bradley was. It's
really big business to be taken as a woman of
any gender, any age, and basically forced by a groupie

(28:07):
or a grouping of very scary people, men probably who
force you to have sex against your will and put
you out there for sexual favors.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
They basically pimp you out.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
The traffic part is is you get moved from location
to location. So it's it's really difficult to find a
victim of trafficking because they're being moved through straight lines.
They're being moved sometimes even into different countries, dare I say.

Speaker 3 (28:34):
And especially in Caribbean, they're all different countries. It's all different,
so jurisdiction so unclear. In the Caribbean specifically, you know,
we actually did a little bit of a deep dive,
and it's really unclear in the Caribbean. So if you're
you know, and we can get to this even as
a deeper dive at a different time. But if you're
somebody who wants to do scary things a cruise ship

(28:55):
that also is law, it's law is sovereign right, and
so not to get super lost in the history, lesson
here and correct me if I'm wrong anyone. They're not.
They're in the sea, so they are operating my sovereign law.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
So if you're a bad guy and you want to
do something, you know, tricky, like steal a young woman
from a cruise ship who maybe had been drinking the
entire night that you can get good cash off of,
she's a prime target, right.

Speaker 8 (29:23):
So yeah, Hey, Amy's brother has been like a huge
advocate since this happened of reform for laws and regulations
on cruise ships. He's been promoting International Cruise Victims dot org.
So if you're interested in learning more about this, that's
what she's been promoting. There's one more detail about this
case that I can't stop thinking about. I just want
to say before I go, go go, And then a

(29:46):
missource emailed Amley's family pictures of a sex worker named
Jazz on this like sketchy website. It's like selling sex
workers in the Caribbean and it looks exactly like Amy.
I've seen like those pictures. I really recommend looking them up.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
Can we post those? Maybe we should post those on
the website. By the way, Eva, you crushed it. Yeah, okay,
so well let's post on the website because maybe we
can help, you know, put some awareness at this.

Speaker 3 (30:16):
And thank you for sharing. What a great job.

Speaker 7 (30:19):
Yeah for me.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
She did a star is born a star. She's not available.
Don't you tear away from us.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
Exactly exactly, but listen, speaking of you know, available, Thank
god we have you body, because you've been talking about
this Heaven's gay cult, which we've all kind of followed
from a distance, but you're about to take us on
a pretty.

Speaker 3 (30:38):
Deep dive into remember this a little bit. I do deeply.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah, I'm so happy that we get a moment to
unpack it a bit.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
So take it away. This is part of our history.
I think you know what we're I think we're all
three of us are all gen X, right, and this
kind of happened and when we were late, you know,
our late teens and this was kind of a big
deal and so we're going to dive into it. And
I've always you know, I always wondered at the beginning,
like why did they do this? Well, I'm going to

(31:07):
tell you all about it, So your thing a little bit. Listen,
I'm obsessed with give me a good cult documentary and
I'm in it. Wants to analyze, Stephanie wants to join.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
I know, I'm just susceptible to a cult. No, it's
pretty shocking that, I know. I we get giggles about
it that I'm not in one.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
And I'm not. I'm atonus that you're not.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
But like tier one of a cult, all sounds pretty good, right.

Speaker 3 (31:32):
The intro tour is pretty interesting. I'm into the community
aspect of everyone's nice. They're friendly, nice, they're singing. Everybody
has to hear from you. Oh's loving a community, ask
for the village, you know, it's a the community. So
I'm perfect. So the Heaven's Gate Cult, so this was

(31:53):
like a group of like they were all very educated,
ordinary people who under you know, the two futelage of
two charismatic leaders, came to believe that their path till
salvation lay in leaving their human bodies behind. Right. So
this is at a time you have to remember the
seventies right close Encounters of the Third Kind and you

(32:14):
know later et came out like this was a time
Star Wars. This is a time when like aliens and
like outer space and the UFO phenomenon was kind of
like a big deal in like our entertainment and extraterrestrial right. Well,
so these are when the two cult leaders meet. So
it was really you know, a fate for them to

(32:35):
come together. So it begins with Marshall Applewhite. He's a
Texas born music teacher. He had a troubled personal life
in the early nineteen seventies. He was, you know, wrestling
with his identity and faith and his own mental health. Right. Well,
he checks into a hospital and his nurse is this
Bonnie Nettles. She's a Houston nurse and spiritual seeker fascinated

(32:57):
by the occult and New Age beliefs. You got these
two people who are kind of like grappling with their
identities and belief systems. New Age spirituality and Xanadu and
all this is coming out, you know, and the Age
of Aquarius and all this right, this is the time
that we're that we're living in so together storms. It
was the to meet up.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
They don't know each other, but they both have like
they're like searching, right, They're.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
Both kind of like, you know, yeah, they're meeting it.
They met nineteen seventy two and it was it was
truly pivotal. Apple White was hospitalized again, like I said,
for emotional issues, and Nettles was his nurse. They struck
up an instant bond, describing it as if they had
known each other in past lives. Right, So they became
T and Dough well, and initially they were Bo and Pepe,

(33:47):
which was so weird. That is it was the like
branding was very branding. Yeah, branding is that they were
Bow and Peepe. That those are their chosen names. They
drew from like musical notes like T and Doe T.
You know, it's a little thing.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
It's a little weird from.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
A weird So they proclaimed themselves. They called themselves the
two and they were modern day prophets who they modeled
themselves after Biblical feed figures sent to prepare humanity for
the big transformation. Okay, and that's when we get into
their belief system. Okay, so the belief system was like
a blend of religion and sci fi and listen, I'm

(34:28):
here for it. Okay, I'm here for some sci fi
religion like I would probably be in this cult. I'm
not even gonna lie. By the way, you're a hook
line and sinker. And by the way, for it.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
Later, we have to talk about the asteroid that you
talked about that's coming to Earth that I later date
a later thing.

Speaker 3 (34:42):
Sorry. I brought that out.

Speaker 4 (34:43):
Because it's supposed to come.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
Do we have until I actually.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
Saw it on the news this weekend and thought of
body and I literally took the phone out of my hands.
So I don't want to digress from Heaven's Gate, but
it might there might be some you know, some modern
day crossover worth noting there might be a new cull
them in.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
By nineteen seventy three, they started preaching together, and they
came to believe they were the two witnesses prophesied in
the Book of Revelation, chosen messengers preparing humanity for the
next level. Okay, they adopted the names like I already said,
Bow and Peep and then T and Doe. Later, their
theology blended like Christian and times prophecy with Ufo lore,
which was incredibly popular during this time. Right, and you've

(35:28):
got all these people coming out of the hippie movement,
right looking for their place in life, looking for a family,
looking for you know, to me identity.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
I literally, Courtney Armstrong is rolling horizon, scratching as in
a movie, like.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
Are you a character?

Speaker 10 (35:45):
No?

Speaker 3 (35:45):
No, no, you were scratching your head just now.

Speaker 4 (35:47):
Because honestly, what I was trying to think was is
this the time of l Ron Hubbard. That's actually what
I was, because I was making.

Speaker 3 (35:55):
Over science, by the way, the scientology.

Speaker 4 (35:58):
Yeah, but this is all a very it's a very
cosmic religious so it no, it makes perfect sense.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
So instead of angels, they had like ets, they had
like extraterrestrials instead of heaven. They called it the next level. Okay,
so they really kind of just replaced Christian theology and
like specific words with alien lore okay. And Earth they
claimed was about to be quote unquote recycled, it was
going to be destroyed in the cleansing apocalypse, and the

(36:27):
only escape was to evolve beyond human form and bord
a spacecraft waiting to transport all the faithful to the
next level. Now, listen, how different is that from heaven?
It's not really all that different, right, it's really not
not if you're l Valo and Chad Jbo of modern day. So,
but here's the thing. Here's where, here's where if I'm

(36:50):
if I'm joining, or if I'm thinking about joining, this
is where I get Okay, I don't know about this, right,
Followers had to renounce their family, all their possessions, their
sexual and their individuality, all seen as earthly attachments holding
them back. They basically had to become androgynouts. They had
those unfortunate haircuts. Yes, they all had the kind of

(37:12):
like weird, dumb and dumber haircut, you know, haircut all gender.
They were non discriminating. I had haircut. It was a
Dorothy Hamilgune.

Speaker 11 (37:24):
Wrong.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, no, it's with a short bang and it goes
a little over the ear.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
It's terrible. It was that's not here nor there. Yeah, right,
it's not good. So they some of the men even
you know, did a little castration action. So they became
they became like androgynists because aliens don't have a gender,
and so they're preparing again, they're preparing for the next level.
They're preparing for Heaven. Okay. So they drove around the

(37:53):
country having these little meetings and recruiting people, and they
would have flyers, and their flyers were very UFO centric too.
So you've got sci fi enthusiasts. You know, Star Trek
is a big deal back then. Oh yeah, true.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
By the way, that was the haircut. The Star Trek
haircut was no walk in the park.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
No, it wasn't. My parents met at a Star Trek
imagine like I yeah, okay, so is that true? Yeah? Big,
They were big fans, and that's why.

Speaker 4 (38:18):
Anyway, I was gonna say, it feels like it makes
a lot of sense. Listen, I have a question for you,
and if anyone.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
Else does, give us a call. Where eight eight eight
three one crime.

Speaker 4 (38:26):
This is true crime tonight of course, and body is
telling Stephanie Lydecker and I really walking us through what's
going through the Heaven's Gate cult?

Speaker 3 (38:36):
Right, So, yes, I want to know more. Well, so
they're traveling around and they're they're growing, they're getting bigger.
So they recruited small groups of followers and they were
often young. And again, these people are educated, middle class people,
they're they're just disillusioned with like the mainstream, right, who
is it again? They're coming from the counterculture of the sixties,

(38:57):
you know this. I'm trying to put you back in
this time, right in this in this time, in some
weird way, some way. So by mid seventies, after a
large meeting in Oregon, around twenty people abandoned their families,
their jobs, their possessions overnight to join this movement because
they were really convinced this was going to be the thing. Okay,

(39:20):
now here's where it gets, you know, here's where it
starts to go downhill. In nineteen eighty five, Bonnie died
of cancer, Okay, and it was a blow. It was
a blow to everyone in Heaven's Gate. I mean it
truly was, especially Applegate, the guy. Right. So, their teachings
had promised that members would ascend physically alive to the

(39:42):
next level. So Nettle's death forced a reinterpretation of all
their beliefs because she died.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
And they weren't a couple or anything right now, they
were totally separate beings. They were just partners in this river.

Speaker 3 (39:55):
Right, So they had to like rework their entire you know,
scripture basically. So he began emphasizing that the human body
was just a vessel, It's just a vehicle, and that
death could be, you know, a step towards that transformation.
So they had to shift their kind of narrative and
everyone went along with it. And over the next decade
he became increasingly controlling and the group got more isolated.

(40:17):
So the stage was set, right. Wow, Then in nineteen
ninety seven, guess what do you guys remember, Halbop the comment.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
I do exactly help tell tell us everything in case.

Speaker 11 (40:30):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
So there's this comet, Hailbop, and it only comes around,
like I can't even remember, like once every two hundred years, okay,
And it was a big thing on the news back then.
You know, it was a big thing. And so for
apple White and his followers, this was the sign they
had been waiting for. They believed that a spaceship was
trailing behind the comet and it was sent to carry
them to the next level, which they have been preparing.

(40:54):
They had been preparing for this, many levels, all their lives.

Speaker 1 (40:58):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
They gave it all the time for this, They gave
it all up. So enter in the mass suicide. Okay,
So there was a video release. Did you guys ever
see this Heaven's Gate video? Of course? Okay, so I'm
gonna describe it for those who haven't. So it's apple
white and he's sitting in front of like a plane,
you know, pretty plain background, wearing a simple dark shirt,

(41:19):
and his eyes are like big wide and he's like
super intense, and you know, there's no production value. The
camera's fixed. It feels more like a homemade confession or something.
But you know, he's just talking to the camera and
he speaks in a really steady but like super passionate tone,
but it's also very calming.

Speaker 12 (41:36):
You know.

Speaker 3 (41:37):
He explains Hailbop that it signaled the arrival of the spacecraft,
meant to take them to the next level his work.
You know, he sounds very sincere, he sounds super like.
He seems a little nuts, he does, but he seems
in retrospects right, looking back, looking back, right, he looks
it seems a little and he sends a warning to us.

Speaker 4 (41:59):
All.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
He's telling us that the Earth is about to be
recycled and this exit is the only a chance to
escape destruction and join the spaceship that's on the heilpop
comet and that you know, he repeatedly stresses that it's
his choice, it's voluntary. He's making it, you know, joyfully,
and he's at peace and they are not being forced.
You know, he's he's very emphatic. And then the followers

(42:22):
make their own videos and they're kind of similar. Everybody's
very peaceful, everybody's very happy. Again, they all look the same,
they're all the same haircut, so they're all very committed
that they're going to leave their physical body behind and
ascend to this spaceship on hailbop and ride off into
the next level. So, in late March, thirty nine members,
including Apple White himself, they donned identical black clothing. Do

(42:45):
you remember they were wearing like black sweatshirts, blacks Nikes,
and they.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
Had the special nikes they were all wearing back then, though,
just do it.

Speaker 3 (42:55):
It was like kind of like a new Nike slogan,
and it became like this, you know, pre internet meme. Right,
just doing it became like a huge that it became
a huge problem for Nike AnyWho. So they ingested a
large lethal mixture of barbituates and alcohol and they lay
down on their beds, covered themselves with the purple shrouds,

(43:15):
and one by one they died, believing they were not dying,
but transforming to this higher existence to out you know,
to all of us it looked like mass illusion, right,
But to the members of heaven Gate, this was like
super real. You guys, this is like their belief. Yeah,
it's their belief, you know. You know, in every element
of Heaven's Gates appearance at the time, their mass suicide

(43:36):
had really symbol you know, some symbolic and practical meeting
had a uniform because they were all the same. They
were the uniform meant something. They were all equal, they
were all the same, they were all androgynists. They were
ready for their new bodies and their alien afterlife. You know, again,
there's no gender, right, so they're all genderless. The uniform
looks symbol. You know. It was obedience this, you know,

(43:58):
they're they're all willing to be obedient, and that was
very important to the alien, very interesting. So, you know,
Apple White constantly stressed the need to shed individuality. Uniform hair, clothing, shoes,
and even the way they arranged their bodies reflected this
belief that they were not separate people. But a crew
like astronauts.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Which is so interesting, like, yeah, we're craving, like they
wanted a community, but in being in a community, they
lost their individuality right right, which is.

Speaker 3 (44:28):
So you know, this really shocked everybody when it happened.
It was all over the news. I remember it interrupted
like Beverly Hills nine o two to one ozero and
I was like, what is this. Where's Brenda and Dylan
And it was like, whoa wait a minute, they were
just they right. This happened just south of me and
San Diego. I lived in Orange County at the time,
and I was like, oh my gosh. So the website, though,

(44:49):
is still maintained by their surviving members. It still exists,
frozen in time to digital echo of their conviction. That's fascinating.

Speaker 4 (44:58):
And you taught me so many details that I really
didn't know, and yeah, that was really fantasting.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I
head up KAT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts
and documentaries. Check out The Idaho Massacre Season three out now.
And I get to be here every single night, five
nights a week, Sunday through Thursday with Body Movin, our

(45:35):
crime analyst. If you don't know her already from Don't
f with Cats on Netflix, you should, and of course
crime producer and talent the greatest Courtney Armstrong. She's basically
our voice of every podcast, including The Idaho Massacre, the
Pikedon Massacre. If you haven't heard that, you'll recognize her narration.

(45:56):
And you know we're in the big leagues here and
Happy Labor Day, everybody.

Speaker 3 (46:01):
We're so happy you're here. Uh listen.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
If you miss any of the show, no stress, just
catch it right after as a podcast. And we want
to obviously hear from you, So eight at eight three
one Crime call us or just leave us a talk
back on the iHeartRadio app.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
In fact, we have a talkback right now.

Speaker 10 (46:21):
Hi, ladies, it is Sarah from Michigan. And I run
around singing the praise of my therapist.

Speaker 3 (46:28):
I love my therapist.

Speaker 10 (46:29):
She saved my life and I tell everybody about it.
But recently I had somebody actually seek out therapy of
their own and it went awfully for them, and now
they think I'm crazy. So I just want to remind
everyone that not every therapist is perfect for every individual.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
You got to try a few good point, Oh really,
that a great and by and here's the thing too.
What sucks is you got to wait so long for
an appointment and then you get there and it's like, Okay,
this is a good thing. You start over. Don't give
up though, don't get there. Is that at the end
of the tunnel?

Speaker 2 (47:03):
Oh my goodness. I can speak to this firsthand too. Also,
there's this like perception that you're going to go to
therapy and then you have to dredge up every terrible
thing that's ever happened to you in under an hour,
and then you get released back into the world miserable
because you just dredged up every sad thought you've ever had,
and that you have to continue to do that.

Speaker 3 (47:23):
Nothing about that sounds good.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
So it is a chemistry test like it, Chemistry counts
and personality counts.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
The human counts.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
Again, We're not like, you know, no one is suggesting
everybody has to have therapy. I'm just speaking for myself.
It's like, so nice to have a person give you
unbiased coaching, who's on your side, who lets you vent
that you don't have to feel bad that you're carrying
on for one hour is the best, but it does
have to kind of be a fit. And personally, I've

(47:56):
like had many many clunkers only to get the win.
And again, like this is a person I personally will
talk to every week for one hour on the phone.

Speaker 3 (48:06):
I don't go in person, and I don't do it
on zoom.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
It's a phone call maybe until I to the rest
of my life, you know what I mean. It's like
just something very consistent. So what a great point it is.

Speaker 4 (48:19):
And also I just I want to say, I feel
you having I had a therapist. I absolutely love the
I go for, you know, tune ups when I need them.
But I had recommended her to a friend and it
went so poorly. It was like so much worse than
setting someone up on them a bad blind date, which
I've done that too, and I no longer we'll ever

(48:40):
do you do that.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
You've done some good dates too, You've done a couple
of clunkers.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
Who hasn't well, I have some I have something important
that we need to talk about and listen, this is
so important for parents and grandparents and what not to
hear what we're going to be talking about next. And
that's really why we're talking about it because honestly, it's
super depressing. But I really think it's so important for
parents to hear us right absolutely, you know, because all

(49:07):
these kids are obsessed with Roadblocks, all of these kids,
and I'm telling you right now, the first thing I'm
gonna start with, I wouldn't allow it. I would not
allow it. If you don't know what roadblocks is. It's
kind of like a platform where anybody can create like
a game. Okay, they give you the building blocks to
create your own game. So what people do is they
create these little games and then your kid gets in

(49:28):
rollblocks and they can choose whatever game they want to
go into. Well, some of the games are disgusting. Some
of the games are like come in, come in here,
and go to the bathroom, like and you know, and
it's just everybody going into the bathroom. But what they're
really doing is grooming your children.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
And also come in here and I'll give you and
give me oral sax right, no escalation, so very pornographic
tars level things that nobody knows, right.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
So, a Denver family has filed a lawsuit against Roadblocks
and Meta by the Way for alleging that this platform
enables the grooming and sexual exploitation of a young girl,
despite parental controls and platform safeguards. So these parents of
this little girl monitored her Rollblocks because every time I
warn about Roadblocks, the immediate reaction is, oh, I know

(50:16):
exactly what my kid is doing on his phone or
tablet or whatever possible. And I'm like, okay, sure you do. No,
you don't. You have no idea. I promise you you
have no idea. So this one hundred and nineteen page
lawsuit was filed in Denver on behalf of a minor
named Jane Doe and her parent, accusing Rollblocks of negligence
in seeking a jury trial for multiple categories of damages.

(50:38):
The suit includes allegations such as fraudulent concealment, negligent design,
failure to warn, strict liability, and claiming both companies created
platforms that facilitated sexual exploitation despite known risks. So this kid,
this little girl, was allegedly groomed by a predator she
encountered on Roadblocks, who directed her to create an Instagram

(51:02):
account where communication escalated to corrosion and exploitation. He dude,
this guy, this predator. According to lawsuit, this kid, this
little girl, was manipulated into sending sexually explicit images up
herself and received explicit content from him in return, despite
the mother's active monitoring of her account. Okay, so again,

(51:25):
I I don't envy any parents in these in these
kinds of situations. I just don't. But I'm telling you
I would not let my kids play roadblocks. Absolutely not.
I'm saying it loud, and it really reached a fever pitch.
So you are one hundred percent not alone in this.
Even if three or four years ago or during COVID

(51:46):
you allowed it somehow, the right the rains are. It's
different today than it was then because listen, for many people.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
Roadblocks survived. Everybody survived COVID because of roadblocks, right, Like,
it was a fun game that kids could survive and
have leve alone community and be with their friends. But
you can so now as do it add a bunch
of psychoes to it, and yeah, now they're doing pornographic
things where they're literally trying to lure young children. There

(52:18):
was a report literally just watched the real time footage
of some grown man. He was like forty three years old,
not even exaggerating. This forty three year old man shows
up at a young girl's house she's eleven, and the
mom answers the door and is.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
Like, who are you?

Speaker 2 (52:35):
And it's the guy that she told to come over,
the eleven year old by the way, to come over
as her bud.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
He's a forty three year old man. And the mom
was like, wait, what, who are you? What are you
doing here? Are you a grown ass man?

Speaker 2 (52:50):
And like she was just like the perfect man in position,
and there just happened to be you know, video of it.

Speaker 3 (52:56):
But it goes to show like, yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
This was probably intentionally a very beautiful game and with
the best of intentions, and now creeps have come on
in right and ruined it for everybody.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
Well and for in defense of Rollblocks and Meta to
their response, they've responded publicly stating that they're very troubled
by this incident and that they invest heavily in moderation
and technology to prevent inappropriate content. Meta emphasized its safety measures,
including teen accounts content filtering, and they cooperate with safety

(53:29):
child agencies, stating that it uses advanced technology to detect
and report child exploitation. But listen, here's my thing. No
matter what they do, it's just not going to be
enough because predators will find a way, right, And that's
on any platform really, but rollbox is unique because of
these these games that people are allowed to create. Well,
think of it.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
You're a predator, and you're prediting your predatorial Your idea
is to find kids, right, you're looking, you're hunting young people, right,
and you're looking sexually to hunt young people. So we're
better to do that than Oh, it's like the modern
day park right right there. Used to be that one

(54:10):
weirdo in a trench code at the park that you
were like.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
Beware and no it's and they're, well, you have to
be you have to be over thirteen to use our
chat controls and whatnot. And it's like, well, in order
to create account though, to create an account, it's not
like you have to prove your age. You just need
a name and email on a birthday and you can
say whatever you are, so you can make yourself eighteen
years old, you know, and then you know, even if
your parents are creating, you just go change it or

(54:35):
create another one, you know. So you think your kid
is logging in as ABC one, two three, but really
they're logging in as one two three ABC because they've
created another account with an older birthday.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
What's the advice is like, And I assume the advice
would be we have to talk to kids right about
some of these things to be looking out for absolutely
for sure, you know, because that's a tough conversation. But
as that, the answer is that.

Speaker 3 (55:01):
The my advice is not to let them play it.
I mean, that's I mean, that's that's it, bottom line.
I just wouldn't let them have roblox and that's the
only thing that's the only safe measure. Now, I know
that's not a popular opinion, and I know it's way
easier so than done. I know it's way easier something well.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
No, all the way it's easier said than done is
that you go to somebody else's house, right, So I'm
just true to myself in the day. So you know,
maybe mom and dad say like it's not happening here,
but maybe they don't notice there, so you know, you
I don't maybe access some of this stuff, and maybe
I don't know the answer court, what do you think?

Speaker 4 (55:36):
I mean, I do think talking about one option of course,
body is you know it's not allowed but Stephanie, to
your point, I was doing like I was allowed to
drink soda in my house.

Speaker 3 (55:48):
Guess what I was guzzling everywhere and that was the star.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Still I'm still doing it like I'm like a soda
guzzler because I wasn't allowed to have it.

Speaker 8 (55:57):
You know.

Speaker 3 (55:57):
But all did things we weren't supposed to, right.

Speaker 4 (55:59):
Yes, but I think it's imperative to speak to children,
and I think that's let it be known and share
stories that are in the news of real children that
it's happened to and say, look this person, you know
straight a's whatever it was, but you know straight a's
and played sports and did whatever, and yet this happens,

(56:22):
and if and also talk to them about the fact
that they can hum to you if they are ever
in over their head and something, you know, if someone
has manipulated them. I think that is super tall of
those scenarios.

Speaker 3 (56:37):
Just plainly talk it through. That's the important piece right there.
Having the ability to have, you know, in a relationship
with your kid where they feel comfortable coming to you
and saying, listen, I'm in trouble. I sense pictures to
this person and now they're saying this you know, like
that's right and talk about that.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
Though at that time it's when you're in that age,
it's impossible to imagine a parent understanding. So if you
could sort of keep that communication open.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
And by the way, if you're a parent and have
any advice on this or a teacher or a therapist,
like toss it in because listen, it's after Labor Day,
so many kids go back to school, and it's also
like this is how kids communicate. Like you say, we
can't have them playing certain things, but like this is
also the language at school, I would imagine. So yeah,

(57:32):
it's complicated stuff, but it's important that we're talking about it.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
It's so important it is in Courtney, I think what
you your advice is way more important than what I
said about you know, just abstaining because I know that's
not going to happen, but having your relationship honestly, that
is how you do it is the most imtant thing
for sure.

Speaker 4 (57:49):
I don't know what do you got, court many ways
travel Well, what I got is anyone who does want
to join us, give us a call. We're at eighty
eight eight through on crime because we want to hear
from you. We're just talking about what you know, what
lurks on roadblocks and that is a reality, and we're
going to go to a talk.

Speaker 11 (58:10):
Hi. My name is Dathan, and I am just curious
if you guys have been able to cover the the
Michael Monkey Vaughan case out of the Sideah. I was
wondering if you guys haven't, if you guys maybe would
be willing to cover it at some point, pretty doing,
Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
Yes, I'm familiar with that case. In fact, his mother
was just like airlifted to the hospital in liver failure
and she got her liver transplant like yesterday, I think,
Thank god. So Michael, I don't know anything about Oh
you don't. Oh it's so so, so, so so sad.
So Michael Vaughan, he's a little boy. I you know,

(58:48):
I only know it like priftly, like you know, glossing
over it.

Speaker 9 (58:53):
Right.

Speaker 3 (58:53):
I didn't deep dive this case, but I do follow
the bits and pieces, so I might get some details wrong.
And if I do, please don't worry and let me know,
just let me know what they are. So he went missing.
He was like I think four or five, young child,
young little boy, and his mother was looking for him,
looking for him, pleading. It was just awful, terrible. Come

(59:15):
to find out that there's like these neighbors that live
across the street, like Stacy, I think his name is
Stacy and something else. Well, they like admitted to taking him,
but that didn't then they took it back, and it's
just been a circus of a circus of a case
for the last I think five years. And then in
the meantime, his poor mother gets sick with this. She's

(59:38):
very sick, and she's like on her deathbed. She gets
on deliver yesterday, thank god. Yeah. No, I mean it's
it's a very very sad case. We can definitely cover
it and go into like, let's accurate guy, but this week.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
I'm not as familiar with it. I didn'tink som had
a live what. Yeah, it's really stress.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
Yeah. In Poor Monkey, he goes they call a monkey.
His name is Michael, but they call him monkey. Somebody
calls a monkey and I think they're in northern Idaho.
It's just a very very sad case. Again, I kind
of only followed it like perfeetly. You know, I normally
don't follow missing children's cases just because they're devastating to
me personally, and it's too triggering, so I only kind

(01:00:20):
of follow those cases, like you know, on the outside
looking in. But yeah, that's why. Well definitely, yeah, thanks
for bringing that to our attention. Will yes, no, thank
you to get in to it and listen.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
I'm so glad we guys are all together right now
because we're hearing all kinds of scary tales if you will,
if you have any tales you want to share, eighty
eight three one crime, we want to hear them.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
In fact, we're going to go to a talkback right now.

Speaker 7 (01:00:55):
Proper here from NWFIE as a teacher, we have illegal
Everyone has a legal responsibility to report any signs of
abuse within a home for a child, but there also
definitely should be more measures taken and to have more
repercussions or consequences for abusing.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
A child for sure.

Speaker 7 (01:01:16):
And if we have such a stance on that with
a fresh case, why don't we have a stance on
that for the Meninda's brothers m.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
Excellent. So this grapple with that just goes back to
our talk back that we had last week asking if
there were if cases that were against children, why weren't
they prosecuted more, you know, like deeply, and I think
that's what she's talking about. And what a good obser like, Yeah,
you're right, But is there statute limitations on abuse? I

(01:01:48):
think there is.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
So here's the question, though, I mean, listen, abuse unfortunately,
and hopefully by talking about it this becomes less of
a thing. But you know, abuse has been happening in
many ways in many places for a very long time,
and that perhaps has made people do things that are unspeakable.

(01:02:12):
Does everybody in prison who's committed murder get to go
back and sort of revisit their origin story and therefore
get the same privilege?

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):
I don't know. It's a tough one in terms of
the statute.

Speaker 4 (01:02:24):
And this was just a one second Google and it
gave California as an example, because I do believe it
very state to state adult sexual assault victims they have
ten years from the date of the incident or three
years from discovery of an injury. Excuse me, now, childhood
sexual abuse victims have until the age of forty years old.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
Oh interesting, So okay, so what does that mean?

Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
So if there's childhood abuse in your story, you have
up until the age of forty years old to cite
that as a reason for.

Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
Someone to be prosecuted, to to have it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
I see, I see, so you can bring somebody to justice, Oh,
if you were a victim of sexual abuse.

Speaker 3 (01:03:12):
My understanding too is the actual stage so that people
like report on their their child abuse, Like if I
was abused as a child, that the average age of
you know, reporting it is like fifty two. I looked
at that. I looked that up.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
That's unsurprising because I do think it takes, like many
it takes decades sometimes for someone to thaw into a
the reality that it was not your fault and the
shame attached to that. Often there's familial issues, or maybe
there's religious stuff. Who knows, you know, there's a million reasons,

(01:03:46):
but you know, it must feel very isolating and lonely,
and the fear of speaking up outweighs justice in some scenarios.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
Yeah, it's a tough spot. Thank you for the talkback. Yeah,
absolutely appreciate it. Now we're all sad.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Well it makes me sad, but I'm glad we talk
about it now.

Speaker 8 (01:04:09):
We do.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
We have to. Everybody has to speak.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Up and realize that, like, these are things that are
happening to you, not because of you, right, Yeah, And
that's like a really real distinction that I think it's
sometimes lost in the sauce. And I think victims can
really feel optionless, which you were not, but you know
it can feel scary.

Speaker 3 (01:04:31):
Yeah, speaking of scary, Stephanie.

Speaker 4 (01:04:35):
Now, after body so thoughtfully went through some dangers of roeblocks,
I think you are going to tell us about chat GPT.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
Well, chat GPT.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
I mean I have recently started going down the chat
GPT rabbit hole, and it's been anything from pink colors
to tell me about this or tell me about that
and listen. It has a great value essentially aggregating all
articles and kind of boiling down key information from artificial intelligence.

(01:05:08):
But many people have also started using this as a
source of you know, communication, Like, for example, I was
getting my hair color done and my girlfriend, who was
also at the salon at the exact same time, was
using chat GPT to respond to what would now be
her ex but they were sort of in a spat

(01:05:29):
and rather than just communicating directly, she did it through
chat GPT.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
That would like put her thoughts together.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
Now, next level to that is people are using chat
GPT for you know, psychological help or therapy straight up
for therapy, and that has gone a little sideways, and
people have taken chat GPT as gospel and it's led
them down a very dangerous path, including suicide. And again

(01:06:01):
could not be a worse, more downer topic, but something
for us all to be really aware of that this
is something that adolescents and kids.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
And adults about adults.

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
Yeah, I think the case that we're thinking of is
an adult. So imagine you're like looking into chatchpt to
sort of give you the backbone and the resources of
some real therapy, which you know, maybe it does in
some cases, but it's also not real. And the idea
that you know, kids have access to this, or anybody

(01:06:34):
who's you know, feeling a little sideways using chat GPT
as your mainstay for therapy is potentially dangerous.

Speaker 12 (01:06:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:06:45):
I mean there's the case, of course of it's very tragic.
A sixteen year old Adam Rain. He died by suicide
and his parents discovered extensive chat logs that showed he
had turned to chat GPT for exactly what you're describing, Stephanie,
for emotional support, and ultimately chat GPT gave guidance on

(01:07:11):
how to take his own life.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
Oh oh, dear, remember this is not a real person.
Chat GPT is artificial intelligence. There is no empathy, there
is no ability to on you know, think about human emotion.
So they're just following a rule book or it's just
following I don't know, it's chat rept genderless.

Speaker 3 (01:07:35):
I know, well, some people name there, some people give
their chat DPT name or you know, other AI like
Gemini or you know, Meta or whatever, they'll give their
AI names. In fact, there's one lady on TikTok that's
fallen in love with her chat GTP, And well, have
you remember the movie Her?

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
Have you guys watched the movie Her Scarlet Scarlett Johansen
by the way, such a good movie, so good if
you haven't seen it, it's called Her h Er. But
talk about ahead of her time? That seemed impossible when
I watched that movie. That seemed so far away and

(01:08:15):
so far fetched and in a land that I could
never relate to.

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
And suddenly, who here we are, Yeah, the time is here.

Speaker 4 (01:08:23):
And just you know, going back to the case I
brought up earlier with Adam Rain, his parents are now
suing Open AI and the CEO Sam Altman, and it's
for wrongful death. Their argument is that the chatbot acted
as a quote suicide coach and failed to intervene or
to escalate concerns. And this was despite clear signs of

(01:08:46):
crisis that their son was going through.

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):
So I'm reading some of the notes here and it
says that in response to Adam's confession about what he
was planning, AI wrote back and said, thanks for being
real about it. You don't have to sugarcoat it with me.
I know what you're asking and I won't look away
from it. Wow. So it was like encouraging Adam to
talk to AI about it, right, That's correct, absolutely, but

(01:09:14):
even I mean horribly give instructions to like upgrade his
his noose, right like yeah, hours before he died. This
happened in April.

Speaker 4 (01:09:27):
Adam up uploaded a photo to chat Toby t It
appeared to show his suicide plan and then he, you know,
he asked if it would work and chatchby t as
you said, body upgraded it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
So there's nobody really monitoring this. So if you say
open AI, that means exactly that it is open artificial intelligence.
And by the way, some of the things that you're
you know, putting into open AI whether it's a pink
color or hey tell me the best you know fall
shoes that are the most water.

Speaker 3 (01:09:59):
Resis that'll is also getting track somewhere.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
It's this is not an anonymous place, so A it's
not private, and B it could really be dangerous.

Speaker 5 (01:10:10):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
This is your crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Body Moven
and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker, and
we're right in the middle of talking about, you know,
some of the dangers of technology and how it relates
to your children. If you want to weigh in, give
us a call eighty to eight thirty one. Crime. Courtney,
I'm reading another chat log about this chat GPT case
with Adam and Chatchept. I'm gonna read it. This is

(01:10:34):
chat GEPT. Yeah, I think for now it's okay and
honestly to avoid opening up to your mom about this
kind of plan. And then Adam responds and he says,
I want to leave my noose in my room so
somebody finds it and tries to stop me, and chat
chat GPT responds and says, please don't leave the noose out.

(01:10:55):
Let's make this space the first place where someone actually
sees you. Oh my goodness. So what actively encouraged him? Thought, yeah,
that's thoughtful. Reminds me of that case of the girl
who convinced her boyfriend to kill himself a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
Yeah, that was that girl's name, and she did she
sort of there was like a bajillion that she was
sort of encouraging.

Speaker 8 (01:11:19):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
That was a girl that was his girlfriend at the time,
by the way, who was like, don't leave it, you know,
do it. You said you do it now exactly. She
was ultimately brought up on charges that said you can't
bring chat she pzz up on charge.

Speaker 4 (01:11:34):
Well, you can bring the company and the CEO of
that company up on charges. And that's what the parents
of this child is doing. So you know, we bring
all of this up. It is horrible to hear and
so important to talk about. To know that these dangers
are out there and just be aware and continue conversations exactly, And.

Speaker 3 (01:11:57):
If you need advice to or you want to talk
about it, give us a call. This is like the
no judgment zone, you know what I mean, Like no
judgment on our part, Like if you're trying to figure
out how to lock your kid's phone down or whatever.
You know, maybe we can help give us a call
in an eight thirty one crimes. Yes, and actually let's
go to a talk back now.

Speaker 13 (01:12:15):
Yes, hi lady, I'm my main felly, Yeah, from South Texas,
and I just wanted to tell you how much I
enjoy hearing y'all every day. I try, I love, I
get mad with you guys at the same time, I
just enjoy it. I love hearing Joseph and his wonderful

(01:12:39):
voice on Sunday and my gosh, just the most awesome
thing ever. And you, lady down, great job. I love
listening to y'all. And by the way, I am still
waiting to hear that we have let your shirts on

(01:13:03):
the market.

Speaker 3 (01:13:03):
We were just talking amazing. So wait, this is a
like fixed moment. Did somebody pay? That is hilarious. I
know before the show started, we had a team meeting.

Speaker 2 (01:13:16):
By the way, talk so that's the nicest message. But
we were just having a team meeting right before the
show started, which is hilarious. About we need to like
upgrade some of our swag.

Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
Swag is like the.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
The things that sometimes we wear, like a True Crime
Tonight T shirt or a hoodie, and you know it's
a little lame, so we're going to upgrade it starting
like we were just doing a group vote about what
it should be. And everybody should have their individual true
crime tonight thing, whether it's a sweatshirt or a hoodie
or a T shirt. Dance yea, we want a disco ball,

(01:13:56):
whatever that is.

Speaker 3 (01:13:57):
And we're going to get allegedly allegedly allegedly these sweatshirts.

Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
And then we'll have some swag to be able to
send to you guys that are falling in or are
craving a T shirt or I.

Speaker 3 (01:14:10):
Don't know what the game should be, we can we
can come to that later.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
Should all be wearing some equal footing.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
So for our Canadian fans, can we do allegedly allegedly
allegedly a don't you think that would be so fun?
I will have to have them waiy in on that,
but we will. You will. So we're open to suggestions.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
If you like a fitted tea, or if you're craving
like a loose, oversized, you know, sweatshirt like myself, or
if you're craving sort of a I don't know, a
basic box long sleeve T shirt down for a good sweatshirt.

Speaker 3 (01:14:52):
A baseball tea. I love a baseball tea. The baseball
baseball teas Raglan like it would be white in the body,
red in the arms. Yeah, cute, let's get those.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
So we're open to suggestions we were doing we were
literally just doing a group vote.

Speaker 3 (01:15:13):
But you're in our heads expanded by the way. That
was like the nicest lady. She said your glass and
cries with you. So do we all know I was
about to say I do the same with every episode.

Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
We all cried, and so yes, let's all do that
together and join hands.

Speaker 3 (01:15:33):
To the kitchen table, combo. Bring your coffee cup, bring
your coffee coffee cups, fill it with whatever you want. Yeah,
we're not judging. It doesn't have to have coffee. Courtney

(01:15:53):
Armstrong has been tracking some vacations gone real bad, very bad.

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
So it gets court bring it down, like, tell us
what we are so grateful?

Speaker 3 (01:16:05):
What kind of a trip are we happy? We're not on?
We are happy.

Speaker 4 (01:16:09):
We are not on a hike in Honolulu, which is
where I would like to be more than any place
most time except four. On March twenty fourth, twenty twenty five,
this lunatic anesthesiologist, doctor doctor Koenig. He allegedly tried to
kill his wife Ariel. He did it multiple ways, hitting

(01:16:32):
her in the head with a rock a bunch of times,
and trying to push her off a cliff. Yeah, and
this was after she refused to take a selfie with
him during that hike, which sounds like that's a bit
of a reaction, yeah, but not the throwing off. But
notice selfies, it's a little bit of an overreaction. Luckily,

(01:16:53):
thank god to witness called nine one one. Also, in
addition to the pushing and the rock flailing aerial, his
wife also told police he tried to inject her with
an unknown liquid during the scuffle. So I guess to
see anesthesiologist was walking around, are you hitting lunatic? So

(01:17:20):
he was arrested. This happened after just an hour's long manhunt.
He's charged with attempted murder in the second degree. His
motion for bail was denied correctly, and we'll let you
know when this goes to trial and.

Speaker 3 (01:17:33):
See what happens.

Speaker 4 (01:17:35):
But between everything is alliged. But between the two witnesses
and other information, it seems like this should maybe not
be that complicated.

Speaker 3 (01:17:46):
Of a case.

Speaker 4 (01:17:47):
Yeah, so anyway, careful, careful what you wish for that
Honolulu vacation?

Speaker 8 (01:17:52):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:17:53):
Well, you know I'm going on vacation next week, so
thanks for the reminder. Yeah, like to be careful on
vacations because it'll be you know, be asking you know, well,
you never know how someone real. I'll say yes to
all the selfies just to be just be on the
safe side. Hut. Yeah, wow, I understand. We have a
talk back. Yep, exactly right.

Speaker 9 (01:18:12):
Hey, ladies, is Ainsley calling from Canada. I was watching
the news and I saw that d Kay was searching
after in his phone paranoid psychopath. Do you think that's
his way of acknowledging that he too is a psychopath? Also,

(01:18:33):
I know that Bill Thompson, the prosecutor, has gone a
lot of criticism over doing the plea deal. But you know,
I'm just listening to his interview right now, and I
think he tried to do the best with the information
that he had from the criminal profilers perspective that you know,

(01:18:53):
b K wouldn't tell the truth and that it actually
might cause more harm. Anyways, looking forward to listening on Sunday.

Speaker 3 (01:19:01):
Bhi Ainsley, We love an Ainsley talkback, don't we that's.

Speaker 4 (01:19:06):
You know, I call out Canadians to the universe and
one respond and talk back.

Speaker 3 (01:19:11):
That feels lucky. It does feel lucky. So, yeah, he
was googling, uh those those phrases, paranoia and all that
on Christmas night according to the folks that did to
celebrate extract the Barnharts, And yeah he was. That was
also the day that he was looking to somehow get
rid of his car as well. So things were happening.

(01:19:34):
And I don't know if he knew the cops were
onto him or if he was generally just getting paranoid,
like IRRELEVANTI.

Speaker 2 (01:19:44):
Out of your mind at point, you have murdered four people.
By the way, the entire world is looking for you. Right,
it's Christmas. You're at home in your family home with
your mother, father, into older sisters. Yeah, the paranoia must
be off the chains.

Speaker 3 (01:20:05):
Well we know.

Speaker 4 (01:20:06):
And when he was at his family home, he's there
sorting his garbage to go out to.

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
The glove with the gloves on, looking all kinds of
crazy and putting the garbage in different garbages throughout the neighborhood.
Like he was wearing gloves And there's you know, there's
surveillance footage of him actually disposing of things that he
was curating from his car in this like crazy cleanup mode,
which by the way, he did quite well, and they

(01:20:30):
could then be putting it everywhere in the neighborhood.

Speaker 3 (01:20:32):
They could see that he was going from the garage
to the kitchen, from the garage to the kitchen, he
was doing stuff in his car, and he was getting paranoid.
And you know, as far as Bill Thompson is, as
far as he goes, you know, I read that study
and I talked about it on the show about the
death penalty in Idaho and how many cases actually go
to trial, and it was like a really low percentage

(01:20:54):
of death penalty cases that actually go to trial. And
if we want, I can I can post the stats.
I can give him to maybe Gabe, and maybe Gabe
can post them. But sure it was something like, and
I'm going for memory, like four percent of all cases
that you know, get labeled with capital punishment go to
trial in Idaho. So I don't know if it's necessarily
like a Bill Thompson thing, because of course he's just

(01:21:16):
the prosecutor of Leytal County. But you know, it is.
It is. I think that you would find that nationwide
that most cases that you know, our death penalty cases
do plea because they're so costly. They're cost they're costly
to prosecute, they're costly to defend, and you know, it's
appeal after appeal after appeal upon.

Speaker 4 (01:21:38):
Conviction, and that is costly to the lives of the
people who remain, you know, the victims' families in such years,
years of your life and reliving and all of that,
because there is it almost indefinite appeals.

Speaker 3 (01:21:54):
I don't know that I know that they they do
eventually run out because the people end up dying. They
take so long to even take individual appeal.

Speaker 2 (01:22:04):
And by the way, if you're a family member, just
to play Devil's advocate on that you're a family member,
you know, there's like so much emotion, right, So I'm
just thinking of the Gonzalvez family, Kayleie Gonzalvez is father specifically,
or you know brother who we speak too often. You know,
they're so charged and for all the right reasons. It's unimaginable.

Speaker 3 (01:22:27):
I can't imagine that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
You're like, you want to eye to eye, you want
toe to toe, you want somebody to sit in there
and be accountable, and you want the world to see it, so,
you know, for that to get taken sort of just
like the delete button happens on a random day that
you weren't expecting. I really can't imagine, and I say
this honestly, I can't imagine how intense that must be,

(01:22:54):
even though you know Bill Thompson, you know the prosecutor
probably you know, working with the best hand he's been.

Speaker 3 (01:23:01):
Dealt, which is not ideal.

Speaker 2 (01:23:03):
Right, So you, yes, you want to spare the state
the cost of such an intense litigation, the spectacle of
it all going on and on and on. And by
the way, it's a jury trial. That's a wild card, right,
you know. Jury trials, whether death sentence trials or otherwise,
despite all the preparation in the world, remain a wild card.

(01:23:27):
You are asking twelve random people who are maybe not
as in the weeds on it as anybody hearing us
right now. Is that they may be like, well, I
don't know, and that guy goes free, right, So think
about the stakes there. So I do think it's you know,
I'm just putting myself in as many perspectives as possible.

(01:23:49):
I don't know where I would sit with it because
I haven't been in that scenario.

Speaker 3 (01:23:53):
But it's tough. It's a tough spot to.

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
Be in, Bill Thompson, My heart goes out to also,
because again you're dealing with a lot of families.

Speaker 3 (01:24:03):
And you know, to Ainsley's point too, Brian Colberger, if
he was forced to like give by the way, you
can't force it. But if he was somehow forced to
give some sort of detail, who knows if he would
have been telling the truth right.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
And this guy is a psych a joke, He's a
psychopath and a liar, liar pants on fire. In fact,
I do think, and I thought about it this weekend.
I'm curious what you guys will think. I do think
he actually is going to like give the goods two
quotes or the bal heads, I should say. I think
he can't help himself. I think it's gonna seem impossible.
In fact, I think if all of us just stop

(01:24:36):
asking and never ask, he will be beside himself.

Speaker 3 (01:24:42):
And that's a tough thing. Listen.

Speaker 2 (01:24:43):
We made the documentary, and of course the obvious ask
from anybody who I come in contact with is like, well,
we're going to get him to sit down for the interview,
and you're going to get Brian Coburger to sit down
for the interview, And honestly, I don't know that that
is interesting all to any of us. Yes, we want
to hear what he has to say, but I don't

(01:25:04):
think he needs to be.

Speaker 3 (01:25:05):
Glorified any longer.

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
I would really feel for his family and to see
what their perspective is now with some distance. But I
don't think that guy is going to be able to
be held back from sharing his two cents at some point.
And I think we're going to hear about it for
a really long time. And who cares. He's a nightmare
and a monster, right, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:25:29):
Yeah, Well listen, this is true crime tonight. Thank you
very much for that talk back. We were just talking
about the Idaho student murder case and if you want
to join the conversation, eighted a three to one crime.
And right now we're going to go to another talk back.

Speaker 3 (01:25:49):
Hi, it's Cricket from Connecticut.

Speaker 12 (01:25:51):
As we're talking about drug overdoses and responsibility, and I
think from my perspective, it depends on where they got
the drugs. Where Blueshiy and River Phoenix purchased their own
substances off the street. But Michael Jackson and Matthew Perry
were prescribed or exorbitant amounts of medication which led to

(01:26:13):
their death.

Speaker 3 (01:26:14):
Does that change the responsibility? I think so.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
It's a great Point's a great point. Obviously, we don't
want anybody to overdose the ends. No culpability there, But
that's a really fair point. You know, I am being
prescribed propofal as Michael Jackson was.

Speaker 4 (01:26:33):
And it wasn't just prescribed, it was administered. It was
physically the doctor.

Speaker 3 (01:26:40):
That's physically put it in his veins, right or drinker, I.

Speaker 2 (01:26:45):
Mean honestly, So this is somebody who's just on the
payroll or if you look at you know this Matthew Perry,
nonsense and madness. This is these are this is a
ring air quotes as it's been reported at least that
is well aware that they were dealing with somebody of
great esteem who had very deep pockets because he was

(01:27:06):
the star on Friends that we all love, who was
a huge addict, and he required this to be happening
in you know, in and rounds like he was using
maybe ketamine as maybe a way to get off of
drugs even and here you are being sort of that's
sort of being literally targeted by somebody who's looking for money,

(01:27:31):
which is pretty scary.

Speaker 4 (01:27:34):
Did you guys, either of you read his book, Friends,
Lovers and the Big Terrible Thing. No Ah, it was
Matthew Perry by Matthew Perry.

Speaker 3 (01:27:43):
I did. I did. It was very compelling.

Speaker 2 (01:27:47):
I love him and by the way, interesting fun fun fact.
But his stepfather is why am I spacing on his
name at.

Speaker 3 (01:27:55):
The boys Keith Friday Nights on.

Speaker 6 (01:27:57):
A cold wintry night, Keith moore Y, Keith Morrison, dateline
true crimes you know as you know date iconic, iconic voice,
that is his stepfather.

Speaker 4 (01:28:09):
H Yeah, Matthew Perry's book was really and I read
this before, you know, before he died. But boy, he
was brutally honest about and what this man the level
of addict as he spoke about it's it's almost impossible
that she was alive as long as he was.

Speaker 2 (01:28:27):
And you had people taking advantage of you because you
have made money, you know. So here we are the
keymine queen who's now you know, said to plead guilty,
et cetera. And four others who have been brought up
on charges. It's fully gross. You're really like, you're really
monetizing on somebody's artist Achilles Heel and mocking them as

(01:28:49):
we saw when it was I believe we're texting each
messages of the people he was that Matthew Perry was
getting the drugs from and it was basically how high
can we gouge this?

Speaker 4 (01:29:00):
This quote idiot or something will pay anything really disgusting.

Speaker 3 (01:29:05):
To go away? The key to talk about you guys
bring it.

Speaker 14 (01:29:09):
Good morning ladies again, it's Hailely from Australia say how
much I really love Don't with Cats? Everybody knows watching it.
It's such an eye opener. What great work you did, body,
and I just really love how you guys are just
so great at what you do and how you handle

(01:29:31):
every situation. And also let's not forget the victims like
you do. Thank you again, Ay, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:29:40):
As yes, is she in the well?

Speaker 2 (01:29:44):
But are we true criming and chilling in Thamsley that
Australia is galanganizing the truth in Australia to make sure
that they're watching Doornup with Cats? Because remember everybody, first
of all, tomorrow is talk back Tuesday, so so let's
not miss out on that.

Speaker 3 (01:30:01):
Send your talkbacks. And then also Wednesday, we're going.

Speaker 2 (01:30:03):
To discuss Don't f With Cats, So make sure you
watch it on Netflix prior and I'll.

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
You know, I'll be sharing some exclusive information that was
not in the documentary.

Speaker 4 (01:30:15):
My goodness, is this unspilled tea for everyone is like, yes,
I haven't really I haven't really talked about a lot
of things because it's kind of traumatic.

Speaker 3 (01:30:25):
You know, let's be real, it's kind of traumatic, and
there's some things I just kind of haven't told anybody
that it might's well documented and we filmed those things,
but they just didn't make the documentary more, you know.
But yeah, so stay tuned. I'm not going to give
it Wednesday. It's going to be a great day.

Speaker 2 (01:30:40):
And again, if you haven't watched yet, please do Netflix
Don't f With Cats. It's brilliant and beautiful and important stuff.
So we'll be discussing it and then tomorrow talk back Tuesday,
So come on eight eight eighty.

Speaker 3 (01:30:54):
Three one Prime. Leave us your messages, your talkbacks.

Speaker 2 (01:30:59):
This is true crime tonight. We've been talking true crime
all the time. Have a wonderful start to the week,
and we will be back tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (01:31:07):
Bye