Luigi Mangione Returns to Court, Bryan Kohberger’s Creepy Selfies, and The Chinatown Sting

Diving into everything from Tyler Robinson’s first court appearance and the Luigi Mangione case, to Bryan Kohberger’s unsettling selfies and the newly released Epstein files. We're joined by Lidia Jean Kott, senior producer at Pushkin Industries and host of the new podcast The Chinatown Sting. She’s reported for NPR and the BBC, and her show uncovers an untold 1980s story of heroin smuggling and one of New York’s most notorious gangsters. Tune in for all the details!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Tuesday, September sixteenth. Happy Tuesday, everybody.
It's talk Back Tuesday. But unexpectedly or expectedly, we have
a stacked night of headlines. You should know that state
charges have officially been filed against accused killer of conservative

(00:39):
analyst Tyler Robinson, the Epstein Files. They continue to shake
up Congress, and Luigi Mangione is back in court today
and I think you're all going to be surprised about
what went down. So we're going to be filling you
much on all of those details. But also let's not forget.
Amanda Knox is going to be You're live for one

(01:01):
full hour on Thursday, So if you have any questions
for Amanda, please start sending them in now. We want
to hear your talkbacks. We want to get you calling
at eight eight eight three one Crime. You can leave
a message anytime, or you can always hit us up
on our socials at True Crime Tonight show on TikTok
and Instagram, or at True Crime Tonight on Facebook. I'm

(01:25):
Stephanie Leidecker and I head up KT Studios where we
make true crime podcasts and documentaries and I get to
be here every night with Body Movin and Courtney Armstrong
and ladies. I know we have talkbacks to get to.
But again, this day has been wild Washington, d C.
A lot going on right now and a lot of

(01:45):
people in court. So Courtney Armstrong, where should we start?

Speaker 3 (01:49):
I think we should start with what has been in
this hugely busy news cycle, what has still been at
the top of it, which is Tyler Robinson had his
first court appearance today and he, of course is charged
with aggravated murder in the killing of conservative activist Charlie Pirk.

(02:09):
Prosecutors have announced their intent to seek the death penalty.
And Tyler appeared virtually and he was wearing sort of
one of those their anti suicide vests if you can picture.
My best picture is from Brian Colberger. I think I've
heard them called a turtle suit. He was largely emotionless

(02:30):
and there was he said very few words. So Judge
gaff ordered Robinson to remain in custody without bail.

Speaker 4 (02:38):
I don't think there's any surprise there. And the death
penalty is going.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
To be pursued based on the nature of the crime,
which is also I don't think any surprise to any
of us. This has really taken the nation by just
everyone is transfixed. And he was provisionally assigned a court
appointed attorney after he was declared integen, so he cannot
afford his own attorney in this moment, and so one

(03:04):
will officially be brought to him. And the next hearing
is scheduled for September twenty ninth, and that as well,
will be conducted virtually.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, the rubber hits the road, right. I mean, we've
all been watching this. We've all been fixed on the
television today, watching the news on every possible channel, every
possible source, because again, there's so many perspectives on this
case and we just want to make sure we're hearing
them all and just bring in the facts. So, yeah,
today was a very monumental day. And again our hearts

(03:36):
are with all of the students that were there witness
to this. You know, they're still recovering emotionally speaking, and
of course to Charlie Kirk's wife and two young children.

Speaker 5 (03:46):
Right, And I want to clear something up too, These
were just state charges today, right this, there's no federal
charge yet.

Speaker 4 (03:54):
Correct, there is no federal charge by that. I'm a
little surprised by that. Not maybe some are coming perhaps
to come. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
I remember hearing, you know, several pundits saying that Utah
is a great state for this. I think the death penalty,
which that can be brought federally, I think do have
that option, is something that prosecutors.

Speaker 5 (04:16):
Might have wanted, right, And I think the death penalty
is warranted in this situation. I mean, put aside and
it's hard to do that, but put aside the assassination
of a person. But Tyler Robinson, if he is guilty
of this, and I do believe they have the right guy.
If he is guilty of this, he put all those
other people in danger too. I mean there were thousands

(04:37):
of people there, right, I mean, like, unless he's like
this expert marksman, and I don't think that he is right.
Unless he's this expert marksman. He put all those people
that were standing so close to Charlie Kirk in an
immense danger.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
It's so true. Yeah, and by the way, I mean
even his buddies.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
So now we're saying that he was in fact on
a very specific chat on discord, and there's and so
much chatter about this as well. So imagine you get
this message from one of your buddies and they're basically
confessing to an assassination and the entire world is looking
for the killer. You know, that's also putting people in

(05:14):
a very tough spot. Cashertel was, you know, sitting before
the Advisory the House Committee board today and you know
a lot of tough questions. You know, where was that
confession letter? Apparently he had left a note for his
roommate and that note is no longer.

Speaker 4 (05:31):
There's a photograph of it.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yes, that's right, right, So listen, there's a ton of
back and forth, and again it seems as though he
is essentially confessing, you know, he confessed to his parents,
put them in a really tough spot. They were able
to make him turn himself in. And then it appears
there were, you know, frankly, very glib messages being shared
on this Discord platform between him and his buddies a

(05:56):
little bit, and you know, you got to wonder. I
guess he was just planning on getting caught well. And
I think we should be clear about the Discord messages too.

Speaker 5 (06:04):
The Discord messages, a lot of them were not related
at all to the assassination. A lot of them were
just previous messages of like Tyler playing his game hell
Fire too.

Speaker 4 (06:14):
I think it is.

Speaker 5 (06:15):
And that's where the catchphrase comes from. You know that
one of the catchphrases from the bullets comes from. But
in any event, the Discord messages, there's a couple that
it says, oh my god, Charlie Kirk was shopped, and
then another person says, really, oh my god, is he
dead or you know, I'm paraphrasing, and then another guy says, yeah,

(06:35):
he's dead, and then another person says, wow, rip, you
know that's terrible, something along those lines. And then the
next message we see is Tyler Robinson saying, hey, guys,
it was me. I'm really sorry, you know. So, I
don't know, I don't know. Here's the thing. The reporter
that reached out to the people on this discord, or

(06:56):
maybe they reached out to him.

Speaker 4 (06:58):
I'm sure that's probably what happened.

Speaker 5 (06:59):
We don't know if any of the messages were deleted, right,
We don't know if it's a cherry pick. Right, We
don't write if messages were cherry picked or messages were deleted.
But you know, the authorities are going to be able
to figure that out because Discord will have records of those.
But it didn't seem like the people in Discord. It
was a gaming discord. It seemed very apolitical in there.

(07:21):
It was just guys playing games. I think I mentioned
the other night that's how now what I used Discord
for to play World work Craft way back in the day,
and I would be like, Okay, I'm gonna power up
and shoot my you know, frost bolts and stuff, you know,
like it was nothing. And that's kind of the vibe
I was getting from this discord as well. But I
could be wrong.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
The letter, by the way that you referred to Stephanie,
that you know, was referenced but couldn't be found. So
on September tenth, Tyler had mentioned to his roommate, Hey,
I have there's a piece of paper under my keyboard,
and then the roommate saw it and what it said
was I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Perk

(08:00):
and I'm going to take it. And at that point
my understanding is the roommate then disposed of it or
that no one is quite your red letters in this moment.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
But they took a picture.

Speaker 5 (08:09):
Yeah, somebody took a picture, because in the charging document
that was released from the State of Utah, it says
that police have a photograph of this note. That's how
they discovered it. So the police didn't find the note
under the keyp ordery thing like the roommate did because
Tyler Robinson told them to go get it right. And
that's in such a tough spot, it does, you know.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
Again, there's so much conversation about could there be co
conspirators and we don't know the answer to that, nor
are we suggesting that we do. But based on the
information we have right now, the roommates and the friends
that he was chatting with on discord were uninvolved. But boy,
do you bring a lot of heavy artillery to your
home when you are suddenly the roommate or a bud

(08:52):
of a man who's now been accused of political assassination. Yeah,
guess what the cops are going to be at your
door tearing up your house. Yeah, you know, these are
people who have jobs, I assume, and even his mom
and dad, you know, their house is now going to
be gone through as it should. But again, you're bringing
so much to so many people who apparently love you.

Speaker 5 (09:15):
Right, it's really sad, and it's just sad all around.
I mean, for right now, all we know is, I'm
sure the authorities are investigating every aspect of these people's lives,
right they're being torn apart, and I'm sure they'll find
if there's anything there, I'm sure.

Speaker 4 (09:29):
We'll find it.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
The one thing I always found interesting too, And I'm
just curious if anybody listening has an opinion.

Speaker 4 (09:34):
Listen, we don't know the answers.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
We're just following the information as it's being released. But
the idea that he was carrying this you know, very
large gun down his pants. We saw the video of
him on you know, ring cameras kind of limping by
in the neighborhood nearby, with the assertion that that would
be his gun was making him limp because he had
it hidden in his pants.

Speaker 4 (09:56):
Did he change his clothes? Like when does that all
go down? Did that all go.

Speaker 5 (10:02):
We am, But he does say in the converse in
the charging document there's a text exchange with his roommate
and he says, I left the gun and like in
a towel, and I changed my clothes, So we do
know he changed his clothes.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
Like where does he possibly change his clothes? And how
is that not on camera? And you know, there's also
been a lot of chatter, this is online chatter, not
as reported in the news, about the reward that was
given to anyone who actually brought him in and ins
a sizable reward, and that now there's chatter that Tyler Robbins's.

Speaker 4 (10:37):
Father will get that reward.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
We went down that rabbit hole and it does not
seem to be substantiated, but there's tons of chatter about
that as well.

Speaker 5 (10:45):
Nayah, I don't think that's going to come to fruition.
Rewards are almost impossible to claim in perfect circumstances. You know,
you have to follow a bunch of rules to claim rewards,
and I don't think that that's going to apply in
the situation.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
And that's the scary part because everybody's on social media.
You're here, everybody's opinions and we don't know what's real
and AI and you know, everybody's cherry picking certain soundbites
from either side, and and certainly today a very big,
powerful day in front of Congress, and lots of part
hitting questions in a lot of part hitting categories, this

(11:17):
being one of them. But again, I guess you know,
it's really hard to find really great sourcing, so we
are doing our forty four hour day best to really
keep it clean and just by the facts. If anybody
listening has new information that they want to share or
a personal connection to the case, we of course want

(11:37):
to hear it.

Speaker 4 (11:38):
Yeah, that's even your opinion, correct, Yeah, give us a call.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
Honestly, eight of eight three to one crime we would
love to hear from you, whether it is about what's
going on with Charlie Kirk or anything else in the
news or crime related that you want to share with us.
I'm Courtney Armstrong and here with Stephanie Leidecker and body
move in and I think we have time for a
talk back.

Speaker 6 (12:02):
My question to you is do you think that there
was more than one person involved in the Charlie Kirk case.

Speaker 4 (12:08):
Lots of chatter about that as well.

Speaker 5 (12:10):
Yeah, I don't think so, but again I'm not setting
stone in that either though, Like this is like a
really fluid moving, you know case right now, I don't
think that we're going to find that other people were involved.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yeah, I tend to agree with that as well. And
I guess that's what also makes this incredibly scary and
why this whole you know, everyone's being radicalized on the
dark web web is such an important conversation because it's
really the idea centered around a loan wolf that's very
hard to identify, you know, body, you're talking about Discord
and a small little chat group. You know that we

(12:45):
even heard this on you know, in front of Congress
today of you know, how do we control this? How
do we control this? It's not as though there are
thousands of people in these chat rooms. We're talking five people.
So it's really hard to monitor on the web or
on these platforms, or even the platform for that matter,
to monitor, you know, conversations amongst a small grouping of people.

(13:05):
And it's even harder to identify the one lone wolf
who's kind of stuck in his head and getting radicalized
without anyone knowing it.

Speaker 4 (13:13):
That's true.

Speaker 5 (13:14):
I didn't see anything in the reporting done on the
Discord messages. By the way, I just want everybody to
know again, and this could be cherry picked. I don't know,
but I didn't see anything about planning anything.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
No, no, no, there has been no assertion of that either.
It's really just a general larger conversation that we're just
trying to address, I think as a country and how
do we be responsible and protect ourselves.

Speaker 5 (13:38):
Well, I think there's that You're going to run into
a lot of problems with that. I mean, there's it's
not just discord. There's a ton of thats. I mean,
they were planning a war on signal for crying out loud.

Speaker 4 (13:49):
I mean that's true. You know, I mean, what are
you going to do? It's impossible to put you know,
everything back in the box.

Speaker 3 (13:57):
Yeah, it is impossible to put everything back in the box,
is right. One last piece of information I did want
to share is that the other night you guys had said, oh,
why don't we know that there's DNA on the gun?
And it was released that DNA evidence does Matt Robinson
from the rifles, trigger and the casings.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
So that us to really talk about not trying to
cover up anything.

Speaker 4 (14:21):
So keep it they have the guy.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
Yeah, as of right now, listen, keep it here. We
have a lot more when we come back, including journalist
Lydia Jean Kott, Keep it Here, True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 4 (14:42):
And listen. It's a huge night talk back Tuesday.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
We've been stacking them and getting all kinds of talkbacks,
so we're really excited to hear from you guys. Thank
you for sharing your thoughts and if you want to
join us live, please do eight eight eight three one
Crime Now Listen. We have a very special guest joining
US journalist Gene HoTT. She has a brand new podcast
that just dropped today, The Chinatown Sting Listen. She's a

(15:06):
very important journalist and producer. She's worked at NPR, in BBC,
World Courtney.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
These are our favorites.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
She's also the current senior producer and editor at Pushkin Industry.

Speaker 4 (15:18):
So welcome to the show, Lydia, Hi, Hi.

Speaker 7 (15:22):
Lydia Hi, what a nice introduction. It's so so great
to be on the show. So cool.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
Congratulations on the big show that's you know, the podcast
that premiered today. That's a very big deal and really
an important topic.

Speaker 7 (15:37):
Yeah, and what a great way to celebrate it by
I can to talk to you guys about it.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
Oh, we're so happy to help.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
Oh, absolutely and yeah, that first episode drop date, it's
kind of like birthing a baby a little bit. I'm
going to let people know a little bit about and
then we have tons of questions if you allow, so
listen the Chinatown Sting. It uncovers a forgotten heroin smuggling case.
This happened in the nineteen eighties Manhattan, Chinatown. So women

(16:05):
were recruited from Majong parlors and became part of this
international network that had drugs in tea boxes, led to
the downfall of a gangster known as Machine Johnny. It's
all it's very very spicy stuff. And of course it
is hosted by miss Lydia here. So what first drew you.

Speaker 4 (16:27):
To this case?

Speaker 7 (16:28):
So you know, as a journalist, I am really interested
in the law, and maybe as a theater kid, I
sort of love courtroom dramas. And I wrote an audiobook
that was about the Supreme Court actually in different like
legal theories, and I really got into covering trials when
I covered the trials fam Makeman Freed. I don't know

(16:48):
if you guys remember the crypto, the Fallen from Grace
crypto really.

Speaker 4 (16:52):
Of course, yes, of course.

Speaker 7 (16:55):
So yeah, that was a really crazy trial to cover
because he actually took the stand, which you know will
hardly ever do. And then yeah, I came, you know,
into possession of the suitcase of all these court documents
telling the story of this case from the nineteen eighties,
and I was just like immediately drawn in. Like it
had female heroines. It was about this like huge gangster

(17:16):
who known I personally had never even heard of before
machine Gun Johnny. It had you know, I didn't know
about how they used to be all these like Majong
parlors in Chinatown and Majo is kind of a trendy
game now, so it was fun to learn how to
play it while I was reporting this story. And you know,
so that's bically what drew me into it. And I
had a personal connection to the story too, because it's

(17:37):
actually again to this in the podcast, but I have
a personal connection to the prosecutor in this case. And
when she gave me permission to tell the story, I
was like, I really want to see whether it's possible
and whether the people who are involved, like whether there's
any chance that they would talk about it, and.

Speaker 4 (17:55):
Talked exactly.

Speaker 7 (18:00):
So many questions and so many people at once.

Speaker 5 (18:03):
I know, so the smuggling operation that was used in
these Majong pollos and using the tea boxes and all that.
Can you break down just for the listeners about like
how that worked?

Speaker 7 (18:13):
Yes, Okay, So there was this you know, big deal gangster.
His name was Johnny Yang and he hadnctions in Hong
Kong to heroin, so like he was able to get
the drug pretty easily. The question, right was how could
he get it into New York City without getting caught?
And the second in command of this gang that he
was the head of had this girlfriend who was very

(18:36):
gregarious and she was a big gambler. She loved hanging
out in the Majong parlors and she also knew everybody,
and everybody thought she was awesome because she is awesome
and has a very charismatic and magnetic personality. And she
basically kind of recruited these women who she knew from
the Majong parlors to agree to receive boxes.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
In the mail.

Speaker 7 (18:58):
And it was the sort of thing where they she
would like, well, I'll pay money and all you have
to do is be home and then this package will arrive.
And she recruited people who had reasons to like agree
to accept a package in the mill without asking too
many questions like maybe their husbands weren't paying child support,
maybe they had them umbling, that's some mush on like whatever.

(19:19):
But these were not. These were mostly like young moms,
not criminals at all, because it had to be people
who were not being watched in any ways. These were
just regular people in China. And then the way that
the scheme works is they would agree to receive these packages.
And these were packages that were shipped from Hong Kong
that had tea and stuffed peppers or peppers and stuffed animals,

(19:40):
and inside of each box was also like millions of
dollars worth of carolin. And she was kind of overseeing
what happened. So the woman would receive the box and
then you know, she'd be like stay home on these,
you know, between these three days, and then like let
me know when you received the box. And then when
they received it, she'd be like take it to this person,
and then that person would take it to that person.

(20:01):
So it was like a long change that was pretty
much untraceable to the man who was on the top.

Speaker 4 (20:07):
That seems like a pretty smart operation.

Speaker 7 (20:10):
Yeah, it was. I mean, it works quite well. They
got a lot of drugs then for sure.

Speaker 5 (20:14):
Right, this is true crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm Body
Moved and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker
and we are talking to Lydia Jean Kott about her
new podcast.

Speaker 4 (20:23):
It sounds really fascinating. It's called the China Town Sting,
And we want to hear from you.

Speaker 5 (20:28):
Give us a call at eighty to eight thirty one
crime or hit us up on the talkbacks on the
iHeart Radio app. So tell us about Johnny Ang. He
seems like he would machine Johnny by the way, I
love that name, that Moniker. It's fascinating. He's like a
central figure in all this. Right, who was he and
why was he so feared?

Speaker 7 (20:46):
Yes, machine gun Johnny. So he was the head of
a gang called the Flying Dragon, which was a really
powerful gang in the nineteen eighties and Chinatown, and basically
in the this is no longer true in Manhatan, Chinatown,
this is no longer true at all. But in the
nineteen eighties gangs in Chinatown were really powerful, like they

(21:07):
kind of ran the neighborhood like, and different gangs extorted
different shopkeepers. So if you went into a store, you know,
how you have your liquor license, there would be another
little plaque that said, like what gang you were affiliated with?
And people were really scared to speak out against them
because you know, the police wasn't really paying attention to
what was going on in Chinatown. Like the gangs basically
ran the whole thing. And there was one guy called

(21:28):
mb Lee who was kind of like the unofficial mayor
who did he owned a small business. He tried to
like stand up against the gangs, and then he ended
up getting stabbed three times. And I talked to former
gangsteries who were like, yeah, you know when that happened,
that's been a message to everyone in Chinatown that if
you speak out, you're not safe. So he wielded a

(21:49):
lot of a lot of power for that reason. But also,
you know, it's kind of very much reminiscent of like
how the mafia used to work. He also was like
the community that came back to the community.

Speaker 8 (22:00):
And was like a family man.

Speaker 7 (22:01):
And so there's two sides, right, Like that's kind of
how it works back then.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
Unbelievable And what was it like getting all of these
people to talk from something that happened. I mean, this
didn't happen yesterday, It happened in the eighties. Was it
a difficult process? Were people open to speaking with you?

Speaker 4 (22:18):
Yeah?

Speaker 7 (22:18):
I mean that was kind of like I knew I
would only you know, obviously, this podcast wasn't going to
work unless people were willing to talk to me. And
I really wanted to speak to the women who are
part of the ring, the woman from the Majan parlors,
and none of them had ever done any sort of
interviews before. And now, actually I've been working on this
podcast for a few years and it's changed a little bit.

(22:40):
But at the time, like very few people had even
like as opposed to the like the Italian mafia. I
feel like those gangsteries, like they not have podcasts, et cetera.
Like there was much less out there about the gangsters
of China ten in the nineteen eighties. So I really
wasn't sure if people were going to be willing to talk.
And I had a co reporter named Stu Wang, and
really just like found the names in the court documents

(23:02):
and we're just we had the names of all the
women and we're just like basically ringing doorbells and we
found a couple. Yeah, and we found a couple that
did agree to talk. And I think it's because what's
kind of at the heart of the story is the
relationship that developed between the woman in the Madrone parlors
and the federal prosecutor, who was also a woman who
was about the same age. And I think that even

(23:24):
though they were on opposite as the law, they were
kind of like had a lot of respect for each other.
And this was like a five year case, and I
think they were both kind of to some degree rooting
for each other throughout. And I really think that it's
because of my connection to the federal prosecutor and because
I told them that and that she was going to
be in the podcast, they also agreed to be in

(23:44):
the podcast because they wanted to know about her and
also trusted her judgment, interestingly enough.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
Which is a huge thing because also if you've been
essentially drug muling, whether you know it or not, by
the way, that's a very common thing. And I think
it's so interesting that you're unpacking this. You know, somebody says, hey, look,
I'm going to send you a package of tea if
you wouldn't mind just accepting it.

Speaker 4 (24:05):
You know, I would just accept it if it was
the right.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Price, probably twice, sure, almost move it in the pile
with the other millions of Amazon boxes that store up
throughout the week and no big deal. Yeah, little do
you know there's a million dollars of heroin in it?
That's major.

Speaker 7 (24:19):
Yeah, it's very like isn't that it does not happen
in oranges in New Black?

Speaker 9 (24:23):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (24:23):
Exactly exactly. We were just talking about that.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeah, funny enough, And it takes a lot of courage
for these majon ladies to really speak out, you know,
because even though it has been you know, decades since
this was happening, it's still pretty dangerous stuff and you know,
important that we're talking about it, and so great that
you were putting a light on this.

Speaker 5 (24:43):
So how did you approach telling the story it's rooted
in like immigration and Chinese American communities without like reinforcing
any stereotypes, Like how did you take that approach? It's
got to be like kind of difficult to do it.
It seems like you've done a pretty masterful job of
doing So how did you accomplish that?

Speaker 9 (25:00):
Well?

Speaker 7 (25:00):
I definitely like I worked with so I had a
co reporter from the beginning who actually just recently moved
back to China. Unfortunately early miss her she is that
missus Wang, Yes exactly, and she was like, she's just
a friend of a friend, and she basically when I
got the suitcase, I was like will you I met
up with her at a bar and I was like,
will you help me with this case? And she was

(25:22):
the most perfect partner you could imagine because she's actually
was at the time a practicing lawyer in New York
City and was from the same region of China, like
a little bit outside of Hong Kong as all of
the women who are in this story. So we reported
it out together. But the truth that were both kind
of She had moved to New York like three or

(25:43):
four years ago, and you know, spent a lot of
time in Chinatown, like taking dance classes and you know, shopping,
and I'd gone to the restaurant, So we were both
not like from Chinatown Chinatown. So we also brought on
a consultant her name is wrong, and she breaks through
listening to how which is one of the biggest newspapers
in Chinatown, and we had her look through our scripts

(26:04):
as well, and we also made, you know, definitely the podcast.
It's pretty and it's actually quite We sent her the
voices of like everyone people who are actually in the story, right,
So it's former gangsters, the women who received the packages,
and the prosecutors. It's the very first person and historians.
We also many historians because the cultural context is really important, right.

Speaker 5 (26:26):
Well, the cultural context is a big part of the
story too. I mean, these are women who are immigrants, right,
and they rely on one another too. There's like like
like themes of loyalty and friendship or good sisterhood too, right,
these are some of them are single moms even so
you know, in probably bringing them all back together too
might have even sparked memories of things that maybe you know,

(26:49):
that had been long forgotten. Did you find any like
things that were different, like in things that they remembered
versus what was documented in the court documents?

Speaker 7 (26:58):
I would say it was yes, like so many inconsistency.

Speaker 4 (27:02):
Oh really.

Speaker 7 (27:06):
Yeah, no, I would say, I mean the incoans is yes, absolutely,
so much was was different. I mean, you know, the
case happened a long time ago, and a big central
question is the prosecutor. She always felt like my main
character one of these women was never telling her the
full story of everyone who was involved in all of
her entire involvement. She still she says that she did

(27:30):
say everything that she knew. But yeah, like I would say,
there are there are lots of everyone's memory is they
is at the time things were unclear and now things are.
You know, people's memories also changed stories without even meaning to, right,
Like I had a gagent who told me that he
was there when an arrest happened, and I know he
wasn't there from the court docs. But like I think,

(27:52):
you just put your It's weird how memory works, right,
Like I think.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
Absolutely listen, Lydia, we are so excited to hear the
rest of this unfold throughout the podcast. We wish you
the greatest, greatest success, and everyone make sure to listen
to the Chinatown Sting.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
You can download it for free on the iHeartRadio app.
And thank you again Lydia for joining us. You'll have
to come back again and give us all the rest
of the scoop. So yeah, there's plenty to get to
you because it's talked back Tuesday. So without further ado,
let's go to a talk back.

Speaker 10 (28:26):
In my opinion, with Luigi. I don't think he is
a terrorist. I think he's someone.

Speaker 11 (28:33):
Who is hurt. He lost his mother to.

Speaker 10 (28:36):
The greediness of insurance companies, and he didn't know how
to deal with that, and I think with so much hurt,
he just lashed out.

Speaker 4 (28:45):
So I don't think he is a terrorist.

Speaker 10 (28:47):
I think he just had a really hard time dealing
with the loss of somebody to the greediness of insurance companies.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
I think that's such an interesting talk back because in
this case, in particular in the luigiman Gione murder case
of the CEO Brian Thompson of United Healthcare, there was
so much misinformation, particularly around why would Luigi, why.

Speaker 4 (29:11):
Would this man do it? What is the motive? Including
who's sick? Was he sick? Was anyone else sick?

Speaker 3 (29:17):
His mother, to our knowledge, to public knowledge, is alive
and well and with us, and that was not it.
People did really wonder and pontificate about what insurance company
hurt him specifically, but none of that has really come
to bear, not yet, we haven't been to court. But
in any case, again, Luigi Maggione's mother is with us,

(29:40):
and you are correct, or at least a New York
judge agrees with you about the terrorism charge and can
you fill us in a little bit more on that body.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (29:52):
So today, in fact, a New York judge dismissed the
terrorism charges against Luigi Mandion in the killing of United
health Care CEO Brian Thompson, but the second degree murder
charge remains and Mangeon still faces a parallel federal case,
right that could still lead to the death penalty. So again,
Luigi Mangione, He's accused of fatally shooting United Healthcare CEO

(30:16):
Brian Thompson outside the Midtown Manhattan Hotel back in December
of twenty twenty four, in what the prosecutors describe as
a really calculated.

Speaker 4 (30:26):
And motivated attack.

Speaker 5 (30:29):
Mangione allegedly targeted Brian Thompson to make a political statement
of such and this is against the health insurance industry.
And now he faces both state and federal charges. But
those terrors and charges have been dropped to you know, specifically,
you know, like what our talkback was talking about. So
that is a timely talkback.

Speaker 4 (30:49):
So we thank you for that.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
And by the way, though he still could be charged
federally to death. Oh yeah, that's not a lot of
table in any way, not.

Speaker 4 (30:57):
In any way.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
And I mean, if if we're betting, I would put
five dollars on the fact that federally they will keep
the death penalty on the table.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
And by the way, another example of a lone wolf again,
normal guy, upwardly mobile, very educated. Let's remember Luigi was
top of his class, valedictorian in high school, went on
to a beautiful Ivy League school, lots of potential, tons
of cousins and family who loved him dearly, and somehow

(31:28):
he went down a rabbit hole and couldn't get himself out.
Our understanding is that he did not even have the
healthcare coverage that he was so up against. So I
am curious why specifically that CEO and that particular insurance company.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
I wonder if that will come to bear. I mean,
people have guessed all day. My guess is that United
Healthcare is the largest in the country. But listen, that's
my guess, which is as good as yours and the
other guys.

Speaker 4 (32:00):
We actually have a caller. I believe it's Detective JA.
I am Detective Jay. How are you wonderful? How are happy?
Thank you?

Speaker 9 (32:16):
I'm happy to be with you. I really appreciate you
speaking out about these cases and giving your points of view,
which is excellent.

Speaker 4 (32:28):
Oh, Detective Ja, that is so love, Detective j.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, we'rering ourselves up in the commercial for stumbling a
word or something.

Speaker 4 (32:36):
So actually that's very well timed.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (32:38):
We'll take the compliment definitely great. What's your question?

Speaker 9 (32:46):
Well, I've been listening in reference to the Charlie Kirk case,
the political assassinate a nation, and I have absolutely an
agreement with most everything you've been discussing. You were talking
a lot about the chat and the comments on the chat.

(33:06):
I just want to say that I believe and I
want to ask your opinions. Don't you believe though, that
the absolute evidence will come from the forensic part of
the case, which will be the recovery.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
Of the weapon. Correct. That appears to be the case.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
And by the way, there's a lot of evidence recovered
with that specific weapon. Right. So there's DNA on the trigger, right,
so when he pulled the trigger, he left his DNA there.

Speaker 4 (33:32):
We also know that he left that in a towel.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
There's that said screwdriver that was found on the roof
that allegedly maybe he used for the.

Speaker 4 (33:41):
Scope the scope.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
Listen to me with all the gun talk, and you know,
it seems as though there had been many clues along
the way, including these engraved you know, casings, and you know, it.

Speaker 4 (33:54):
Stacked up pretty good.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
I guess too, right, and a confession to multiple people,
and yeah, some grievances allegedly. I just thought it was
interesting too, curious your thoughts as a detective when he
was you know, family members were seeing him. Mom, his mom.
Can you imagine this nightmare? You're watching the news there's
a man hunt throughout the world at this point, and

(34:17):
you recognize it's your son. Suddenly you're like, wow, that
looks a lot like my son, Tyler. So mom calls dad,
says to dad, whoof trouble in Paradise? Does this look
like Tyler? Can't be yes, They both agree looks a
lot like him. He probably even has that shirt. And
then they involve the pastor and we know how this
story goes. Eventually that he's encouraged to turn himself in

(34:38):
that piece of this because people were reaching out to
Tyler real time saying, hey, this guy looks a lot
like you.

Speaker 4 (34:45):
And his response to.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
These messages where oh yeah, there's a doppel ganger, that's
out to get me. And you know, again, he must
have known that the walls are closing in so quickly.
It doesn't even seem like this try this guy was
trying to get away with it at all.

Speaker 9 (35:00):
Right, Well, the first thing I thought when I started
seeing the images, just from knowing what images look like
when they come through like that, and thinking the FBI
was releasing these images, what's this is excellent, very very
good images of him. And you're correct. Any parent, anyone

(35:22):
that knew him, would have known the shape of his face,
would have been able to know him with sunglasses on,
would have known, you know, what his body look like
is you know, all that was very concurrent. And also
what was very interesting is the type of weapon that
it was. Believe it was a thirty out to six. Yeah,

(35:44):
I've shot that exact weapon with a seven hundred yard
scope and it is extremely accurate. I said earlier in
the show about people being in danger, was absolutely right.
We're so lucky and blushed that there were not more

(36:04):
people that were harmed or worse, you know, and it's
terrible that there was anyone harmed. But he got a
two hundred yards shot off very accurately.

Speaker 3 (36:18):
Wow, Well we're so yeah. First of all, you're so
impressive as a shooter. That's unbelievable. Are Detective Jay Literally
all three of our jaws.

Speaker 4 (36:28):
Dropped when you said that shot. Wow. But we're so
grateful you called.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
Thank you so much and listen, we are with you
and agree, you know, or I'll speak for myself agree. Forensics, Yes,
they are there, God and Gospel and uh.

Speaker 4 (36:45):
We look forward to following along.

Speaker 5 (36:47):
I think that one thing though, to point out though,
I think that the forensic the digital forensics are going
to also be substantially important to show if there was
other people involved, right, Like, so when I'm talking about
like the message and things like that, I'm talking about
some kind of you know, group or coercion or even

(37:08):
accessory after the fact, that kind of stuff, and that
I think that will come out forensically digitally.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
I think you're right, and Stephanie to your earlier, earlier
point of sort of embroiling people in by you know,
people who potentially we do not know who knew what when,
but you know, if in fact this suspect did tell
people what happened after the fact and then advise them

(37:36):
of what not to do that's already. Does that make
you an accessory after the fact, willing or not?

Speaker 4 (37:42):
I can think it, imagine. I think it does.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
Doesn't You got to turn the person in. Yeah, I
think there are some really staunch rules about this. In fact,
we should have somebody on who's an expert in this,
because I always have found this interesting. If somebody confesses
to you, you have to turn them in, right, I
assume I don't know, Or does that make you a necessory?

Speaker 4 (38:02):
I think it does.

Speaker 5 (38:03):
I think that's why people get charged with accessory after
the fact, even if they unknowingly, like hey, I left
a towel under a bush at this university, right, and
they go and they move the towel. I think they
could be in not knowing that it's a towel that
held a gun. Let's say I think that they could
be charged with accessory. I don't think it would stick.

Speaker 4 (38:22):
I think that's a bummer of a rule. I would
get any towel any time of day.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Even as you're saying that as an example, I think
there is some distinction.

Speaker 4 (38:31):
And by the way, states of state this would vary.
Oh sure, but there is a.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Distinction that if you are told or you think that
somebody in your immediate circle or a loved one has
committed a crime, but you do not like house them, You.

Speaker 4 (38:44):
Do not hide them, you do not like aid them
to escape or evade.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
I don't know if you're forced to speak up, I'm
not one hundred percent short, and I think that's a
really curious you.

Speaker 5 (38:56):
Know, you mentioned that you mentioned the parents stuff, and
I wanted to kind of hint on this just a
little bit. In the charging document and other documents, it's
mentioned that in the messages between Tyler and his roommate,
it's mentioned that he used his grandfather's rifle okay, and
that the dad was calling him while he was messaging

(39:18):
his roommate and he's like, my dad's calling. I'm not answering,
and he's going to want to know where the rifle
is because maybe he asked dad to get the rifle
for him, I don't know, or if he just went
to Grandpa specifically to get the rifle. I have no idea,
but he said in these charging documents, he said, I
don't know how I'm going to explain how I lost
this rifle.

Speaker 4 (39:38):
And it made me think of.

Speaker 5 (39:42):
When his family and I'm not picking on his parents,
but when his family saw the photo, right, and then
the photo of the rifle that was released, wasn't there
some sort of alarm bells going off?

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Yes, you would have to assume, but I want to
think this about your child, right, That's probably not where
your brain immediately goes.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
So you immediately must go into denial.

Speaker 3 (40:02):
Well, and not just that my brain, you know, I'm
just gonna for this instance, say you know it's said
of my child, my sister, and oh she asked about this,
and that I would only think, oh, my goodness, my
sister is in proximity to some lunatic with the rifle.
Like my brain would not. That would not be the
next even to five steps ahead.

Speaker 4 (40:21):
What if there was a picture of your sister on
you know, climbing stairs. It's tough.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
I don't know, listen, it's gonna be it will I
have to imagine become clear who did, indeed know what when?

Speaker 2 (40:36):
And I don't think his parents knew. Please don't take
it the wrong way, No, no, no, no, I feel
for the parents. Son is pretty brutal, and you'd be
curious to know what that conversation between mom, dad, and Tyler,
they basically coerced him over to their home to speak
to the pastor from what I understand, and you know,

(40:56):
what was that conversation, Like, well, do you think about this?

Speaker 4 (40:59):
It's so intense.

Speaker 5 (41:01):
In the conversation with his roommate, he said that he
had a neighbor that was like a deputy sheriff or something,
and I got the impression that he was going to
go to that neighbor and like turn himself in.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
But then that was being concerned about getting found out
by mom and dad that he took grandpa's gun, Like
that's the least of your problems, Tyler. Yeah, I think
Grandpa is the least of your troubles. In this exact moment, I.

Speaker 5 (41:25):
Think while he was texting his roommate, his dad was
blowing his phone up, and I think during the course
of that conversation he kind of came to come to realize, like, oh,
Dad knows it's me, so I'm gonna turn myself in. Really,
you go through the charging document if you read these messages,
it's it feels that way to me at least, it's
almost like he's trying to get away with it at first,
and then as a conversation proceeds a little bit. He's

(41:47):
at the end, he's like, I'm just gonna turn myself
in because dad is blowing him up.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
And not what a waste. I mean, look where we are.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
You know, kids being raised without their dad and now
you're behind bars for your whole life. Lives are all
ripped apart, they can't go to their jobs. I mean,
come on, you know, I think we have to do better,
and I think these are really important conversations. And again
I feel like I say this every night for the
last couple of nights. You know, it's not a shameless plug,
but we are just working on a project that really

(42:16):
is going deep into a lot of this stuff and
it's really been eye opening on so many levels. And
if you have a story or an idea or something
for us to be looking out for, to keep each
other safe, because it's the wild, wild West.

Speaker 4 (42:32):
And you know, the web is a real place and
it's hard to monitor.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
So here we are, and you know, to piggyback on that, Stephanie,
on this project, I have had my eyes opened to
atrocities of words and images that I are almost incomprehensible.
And I don't overstate that, and we've been at this
for quite a long time, but this new project, there

(42:58):
are definitely actions of you know, the internet to sound
like a dinosaur that I was unfamiliar with, and it
is dangerous out there and.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
It's hard to explain, so hard to explain. So yeah,
and thank you to Detective Jay for jumping.

Speaker 4 (43:25):
In that little sharp shooter seven hundred.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
That's a lot, so we're very impressed, and keep the
conversations coming because again it's Talkback Tuesday, and as a reminder,
on Thursday, Amanda Knox will be with us live for
one full hour, so if you have questions for her,
we can start stacking those up as well, so please
jump in join the conversation.

Speaker 4 (43:50):
In fact, that's good to We're talk back now.

Speaker 12 (43:52):
When it comes to the Jeffrey Epstein case, first of all,
the entire case is disgusting. From his two thousand and
eight conviction for procuring in mind of a prostitution, serving
thirteen months in jail, some of these kids as young
as fourteen years old. All the court documents, all the subpoenas,
all the search warrants, including their findings, should be released
to the public. If the people on the alleged list

(44:15):
had nothing to do with the sex trafficking. They should
have nothing to worry about.

Speaker 4 (44:20):
Isn't that the choice?

Speaker 7 (44:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Really, I I mean it just like that just sums
it up so cleanly, right, And we know today was
actually a really big day because FBI Director Cash Pattel
says that there's really no more credible information to be shared,
and that you know, they've been extremely transparent and documents
have been released, and of course we know that there
was some excerpts of Gilane Maxwell, his co conspirator, allegedly

(44:45):
in her recent interview with officials, which I find very
meaningless frankly because she's going to say anything to get
a pardon at this point. But in that conversation, we
know she she basically said that, you know, none of
the people that are circulating names, for example, our president
or Bill Clinton or whomever. It all seemed pretty hunky dory,

(45:05):
and there wasn't anything there according to Gileen.

Speaker 4 (45:10):
But look, it's not going away.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
And it was pretty clear even today if you were
watching any of the House Oversight Committee, and you know,
they really did have Cash Betel in a pretty hot
seat asking for a more transparency. In general, the entire
thing had moments, not just in the Epstein category. I mean, yes,
it was pretty emotional. It felt like on all sides,

(45:33):
and I think, listen, we're all in that same boat too.
It seems like it's in the air a little bit.
But look, people just want the information out. And the
only thing I would say that I really rub up
against is this constant, constant assertion that the reason why
these documents are not being released is to protect the victims.

Speaker 4 (45:55):
And I'm like, I don't know. I just saw on
Capitol Hill.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
So many victims that are literally putting themselves on camera
at this point saying we want there to be full transparency.
And look, redacting documents is a very common thing, meaning
and if you don't know what that means, Essentially, if
you get court documents and there's specific names that you
don't want to be released to the public, it's almost

(46:21):
like a black sharpie is through those names and things
that are key identifiers, specifically when it comes to victims.
And that's really important, right safety First, redact the names
in of the victims. That's not what everybody's hunting for.
We're not looking for more victims names, although there seems
to be thousands of them. What we're looking for are

(46:42):
the key people that may have been involved in this
sex trafficking scam, and why is that so complicated? By
the way, another big ticket item alex Acosta. You'll remember
alex Acosta, who was, you know, sort of the guy
in charge when and Jeffrey Epstein was originally charged with

(47:03):
sex trafficking and he fled guilty to soliciting a miner.

Speaker 4 (47:08):
You know, we're talking sixteen years old.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
There was a fourteen year old in the mix, like
he pled guilty, and I think what gets under everybody's
collar is that he got a real sweetheart deal. You know,
he would go to work for twelve hours a day.
By the way, a predator and a pedophile convicted would
get to leave jail and go to work for twelve
hours a day, roam the earth and then go back

(47:32):
and catch a night's sleep and then go back again.

Speaker 4 (47:34):
Who gets that deal? Well, good question.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
So alex Acosta is up to bat, and I think
is going to be speaking again in front of the
House Committee on Friday of this week.

Speaker 4 (47:47):
So it's not getting a lot of press.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
It seemed like today when this like banter was going
back and it happened with many people on both sides
of the aisle really asking Cash Ptel for more transparency,
and you know, he appointed backward and was like, look,
the previous you know crew, they weren't exactly handing those
documents over. And by the way, that's accurate, that's true,

(48:10):
be honest, couldn't be more true. But then before that
there was another regime and they weren't. Everybody knows about
these documents. It's like the best worst kept secret ever.
So it does seem like this is not a partisan
issue exactly. Every seems to be four years everyone's like, wow,
those files. And by the way, when Trump was running
on getting these files out there, which was a big

(48:33):
platform and heading for cash Betel, he already had seen
them because he was president before. That's the part that
I get a little confused by. It wasn't like it
was secret to him. You know, he was already in office,
you know, previously, so he had accessed all this information.
It wasn't just in the previous administration. It was it
seems like multiple administration people, So I don't know who's

(48:56):
covering for who and into whatever for each other. It's
or something older or it's a bunch of nothing. And
if it's a bunch of nothing, hand out a bunch
of nothing. But it seems like why it was a
lot of video. Why was he convicted? Why was he
a waiting trial yet I was killed?

Speaker 3 (49:13):
Why was he you know, suicide friend officially suicidely?

Speaker 2 (49:18):
And why was she also convicted for twenty years Gillian Maxwell?
And why alex Acosta and I assume this will come
out on Friday. Why was he given a deal that
co conspirators could never be charged thereafter, which is what
she's trying to get out of jail for. She's saying, look,

(49:39):
there was a deal in place, no co conspirators could
see charges, so therefore this should apply to me, the
co conspirator.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
Well, she still also maintains her inno sense, so from
everything she says. But interesting, Speaking of Gillian Maxwell, did
you guys, I know there was so much stuff to
watch today. Did you happen to catch Cash Battel losing
his mind when he was questioned by Adam Schiff?

Speaker 4 (50:07):
Please tell me, because I missed everything. It was like
a reality show.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
So it was, yes, Yes, I was waiting for they
were engaged eighteen times, which.

Speaker 4 (50:20):
Little dirty and messy.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Yeah, they were like slurring at each other and like
taking some cheap shifts.

Speaker 4 (50:26):
Really, yes, but I wat Adam Schiff was asking.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
And again this is after building and building, and Cash
Battel had been you know, in the hot seat for
a long time.

Speaker 4 (50:37):
I honestly I think anyone would kind of lose their cool,
but boy did he.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
And it had to do with Adam Schiff asking about
when Gilaine Maxwell was moved after she had you know
her talk I.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Guess her talk with Donald Trump's private attorney, right, Yeah,
where she had said on the record that everybody.

Speaker 4 (50:59):
Was cool and she didn't see any wrongdoing with any
of these big names. Everyone's a super gentleman.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
And then after that nice chat, she then was moved
to you know, the far lower security level prison in
which she has no right to be given what she's
been convicted of. And yeah, Cash matel that really hit
some nerve. And he said something about, you know, it
was only it was it was the it was the prisons.

(51:27):
I had nothing to do with it. I am not
paying attention to the tiny details of what's happening. And
then Adam Schiff loft his mind, calling saying, you're calling
that a minor detail, and yeah, it's.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
I mean to call a minor detail to somebody who's
been convicted of sex crimes against young women, grooming them,
luring them to an island. And regardless, again, whatever side
of this year on, that is not a small ticket item.
And you know, the victims are watching this from a
world stage, and I guess that's that's the most part
of this story that makes me the most, really upset

(52:04):
to the core taking the story out of them and
all the names and lists and put that all yucky aside.
If you're a victim who's considering coming forward and you're
gathering the courage that you've been the victim of a
crime or sex abuse, of a crime of any kind,
and you have to come forward and say, please help

(52:24):
so and so did this to me?

Speaker 4 (52:26):
Why would anybody do that? You're just going to get
raked through the coals.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
And the fear of women not coming forward is really
scary to me. And you know, these women are putting
themselves in harms way, they're going on camera putting themselves
in harms way. We know these are very powerful people.
And then to hear it be so minimized at every corner.
It's pretty brutal stuff. Yeah, it absolutely is.

Speaker 4 (52:54):
Well listen, thank you very much for the talk back.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
If you have anything you want to add or want
to join us live now, give us a call eighty
eight three to one Crime. This is true crime tonight
and we are in the middle of talkback Tuesday, which
is kind of any crime topic goes.

Speaker 4 (53:10):
So what is up next to? Aha?

Speaker 8 (53:13):
Hi ladies. Alexi from Fort Worth, Texas. Here, I'm referring
to the BK Brankoberger situation. I'm wondering what if BKA
only intended to kill Maddie and the other three were
sort of out of necessity and unexpected. He may not
have anticipated Kaylee being there since she had graduated and
moved out, possibly not recognizing her new vehicle in the driveway.

(53:34):
It would also explain the extent of the wounds she
had that seemed to be more angry and aggressive. I
think if it was just one victim, the case wouldn't
have made such a stir across the country, and the
larger law enforcement organizations likely wouldn't have been involved. Then
he could continue committing further murders, and I really think
that was his goal. I don't think this was intended
to be a one and done thing. This was his

(53:55):
trial run that didn't go as planned. Based on some
of the reports, he seemed to idle more of the
serial killer types like b BTK, not so much the
mass murderers like Elliott Roger. Thanks y'all love the show.

Speaker 4 (54:07):
By the way, I that is my theory. That is
my working and it's a lot of she just nailed it.

Speaker 5 (54:12):
It's a lot of people's theory because Kaylee wasn't supposed
to be there, right, She wasn't supposed to be there.
She hadn't gotten a new car even right, so he
wouldn't have recognized her car, but he would have recognized
that there were many.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
Cars parked in the in the in the driveway of
the house. There were so many cars, but.

Speaker 2 (54:28):
There were always so many cars, and that probably part
of the thrill if this guy was you know, and
this is not a technical term, but it gets used
technically air quotes, panty sniffer. You know, it's such a
terrible word, it is, but you know, Joseph Scott Morgan
says it a lot in the land of forensics because
it is a tell and the idea being go with

(54:49):
me here, that maybe he had struck prior sneaking into
people's houses, going through women's drawers, touching their lingerie, underwear, panties,
just so great medicine cabinets, going through medicine cabinet's, touching
things right in the fascination of being there, and then
sneaking out. And if you know, this house has many cars,
lots of activity, and if you're looking to maybe be

(55:12):
sexually violent with Madison, for example, and you're not thinking
that this is unusual that there's so many cars, part
of the thrill is like ooh, sneaking by all these
people and kind of going to the intended target.

Speaker 4 (55:26):
And and maybe it just went super sideways. I think,
I listen, I think that's entirely possible.

Speaker 5 (55:31):
In fact, I've always opined that, you know, the reason
that Kaylee had so many extensive injuries is that she
again was unexpected or interrupted in some way, and he
took out his rage on her because he, you.

Speaker 4 (55:46):
Know, in his most intimate moment.

Speaker 5 (55:47):
And I don't necessarily mean anything sexual, but you know,
a stabbing is an intimate thing. You know, you're up
close and personal physically, yeah, physically, you know, and this
is something that he had been maybe fantasizing about and
it going a certain way, right, and she interrupted this
and in whatever way, whether she was in the bed

(56:08):
or she came in the room, I don't know, but
she interrupted it.

Speaker 4 (56:12):
That's always been my thing. And then he leaves the
He leaves.

Speaker 5 (56:16):
The room and he runs Intosana and it happens again, right,
it happens again again, but she flights back and again
she's brutal, brutally attacked.

Speaker 4 (56:26):
You know, we know she was stabbed over fifty times.

Speaker 5 (56:30):
And you know, I definitely think that is something that
that could have happened that he just went there for Eddie.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
I do I save one fun thing that speaking of
the Gonzalvez family, as we're talking about Kayleie Gonzalvez, we
just did a recent interview for the podcast with her brother,
Stephen Gonzalvez, and on our documentary on Peacock, the Idaho
Student Murders, he appears on this as well, and he's
talking to a local journalist named Olivia, and you know,

(57:00):
they have this like really nice scene together at the
water and they became fast friends.

Speaker 4 (57:05):
And I like to think because of this shoot, they
were brought together, and.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
Director Catherine Park was like an unknowing matchmaker.

Speaker 4 (57:14):
And those two kids are are getting married. They are
I'm very really so love Akhrmon.

Speaker 5 (57:20):
He prevails and you know, listen the thing I think this,
I think it's something to take away positive, right, like right,
If it hadn't been for this, I never would have met.

Speaker 4 (57:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
In in fact, Olivia, she was you know, doing like
all kinds of like online TikTok kind of journalism at
the time of the murders. And after the murders she
realized that Kaylee Gonzalvez actually friended her and she didn't
realize it though, So they became friends kind of after death,
you know, if you want to look at silver Lining

(57:51):
and then here is you know, they call him Gonzo affectionately,
but you know, Stephen Gonzalvez Junior who's just lost his
sister and Maddie was like a sister to him as well.
You know, let them have that happiest life ever, and
you have to believe that there's something above sort of yeah,
bringing meat together.

Speaker 5 (58:10):
Maybe it was Kaylee all along, right, I believe guiding
it to be because they do seem very sweet together.

Speaker 4 (58:16):
They are, and I seem very sweet together. Yeah, and
deserve all the happiness in the world. Totally agree. Oh
and more, that is great news.

Speaker 5 (58:23):
I know, you know, and I don't want to This
isn't a glib comment. You know when I say if
this didn't happen, they never would have, you know, hooked up.
I don't mean that to sound trite or glib, but
it's just trying to find some positivity in this course
a fixed situation.

Speaker 4 (58:37):
Yeah, So stay stay tuned. We're going to get to
some more talkbacks.

Speaker 5 (58:41):
We're going to be responding more and messages and call
us eight at eight thirty one Crime we want to
hear from you.

Speaker 4 (58:45):
Keep it right here True Crime Tonight. We're talking true
crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
Well, welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're
talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here
with Courtney Armstrong and body move in and you guys,
because it's Talkback Tuesday and you are allowed to sound
off here. Also Friendly Reminder Thursday, Amanda Knox. I know
we keep saying it, but it's a really big deal

(59:18):
and I'm really looking forward to it me too.

Speaker 4 (59:21):
In a way I can't quite describe.

Speaker 5 (59:23):
So I watched the first documentary like a decade ago.
I know, like, I'm so excited. Yes, I'm nervous though
a little bit. I'm a little nervous, but I'm excited
me too.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
I'm excited as well.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
So again, if you have any questions that you want
to share or ask directly, you can join us live
that night or leave us a talkback prior.

Speaker 4 (59:42):
So here we are more talkbacks, talkbacks, talkbacks. Let's go
to another good afternoon, ladies.

Speaker 11 (59:48):
This is Stephanie from Pennsylvania, con I just heard about.

Speaker 4 (59:52):
The allegedly allegedly allegedly T shirts and the mugs. I
would definitely I would want one of those. It could
be true come true crime coffee and chill. That would
I love that mug. Anyway, I just wanted to give
my two cents. Excuse my congestion. I hope huge is

(01:00:15):
that voice.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
Stephanie has the best voice I know, doesn't sounds she
sounds great?

Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
Yeah, she sounds awesome. And yes we are.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
We are knee deep and making those making those T
shirts and those mugs come in.

Speaker 5 (01:00:28):
So yeah, we'll we'll figure out how to Like, I
don't drink, I don't drink hot coffee.

Speaker 4 (01:00:34):
So I need a tumbler, and I know that my
tumbler girls are out there.

Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
I don't drink hot coffee either. Stephanie has seen me
twelve months out of every single.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
Can I just let the record show. We got T
shirts true Crime, you know, just like for the first days.
I was like, hey, we'll get hoodies.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
You didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
We'll have true Crime Tonight T shirts. And I got
T shirts for everyone and I love them. We got
sweatshirts and we got mugs and it was kind of
a foul ball. It was sort of like what I
like a neck and I like this, the tumbler would
be better. So we're going to do a very specific
list of tumblers and mugs. No one's ever used their

(01:01:15):
mug and Courtney arms during You are right, I do
know that you only like things cold and a huge
like child drink a big gulp, like a big gulp
size coffee frankly all day, right, I'll milk it all day.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
But the ice is like completely wet. It's like watered
down by three o'clock. It's just pure water with a
little bit of brown in there. Still, But does the
trick does the trick. So okay, so we have to
reimagine the swag.

Speaker 4 (01:01:40):
It was a foul ball the first time it was.
I'm going to correct you, Stephanie. I have been using
my mug. I enjoy it and I have hot coffee
author to prove it. Right now, who has it in
their heads?

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
I actually have pens in mine, so I shouldn't you know,
pas in mind as well.

Speaker 4 (01:02:03):
But they're gonna they're gonna listen to all.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Start having cocktails. This should be a new version of
this where you know, we're all huddled around a table.
It's like getting ready with me, It's like get unready
with me, and we all start like just in Yeah,
the lashes are going away, the makeup is getting washed off,
and we're putting on our hoodies and her pjs in

(01:02:26):
a side pony and.

Speaker 4 (01:02:29):
That's how it is.

Speaker 12 (01:02:32):
But everything else I'm like, And also, because it's an
evening show, is there a way to incorporate like a
wine glasses.

Speaker 4 (01:02:42):
A little after hours goblets? Maybe there's something there we'll
think about that I can put ice and see in
a goblet or something my sprites. I got contacts.

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
I'm starting to wear contact lenses and I think I
have one stuck in my eye. I don't know how
to get it out. There's a doctor who could you
need to call in? No, no, no, it's not so
is it up in your eyelid?

Speaker 4 (01:03:04):
No, I don't know. It's like a foul ball user error.
Oh I don't know. But I'm like half seeing you
guys right now, so bear with me. Oh look great.
By the way, as always, it's because you're blind. I
was gonna say it's a blurry vision. It's like those
treated lenses. I can't see you look great exactly. Thanks.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Talk that talk that you guys are all very dressed
up tonight and look beautiful. So it's uh more of this,
Succumbent's go to a talk back here.

Speaker 4 (01:03:35):
I'm just now able to listen to Sunday Nights podcast.

Speaker 13 (01:03:38):
By the way, I love Joseph's voice, but he just
basically came up with a great little logo for one
of your t shirts, The Truth and Science will set
you Free.

Speaker 4 (01:03:49):
Oh you love it that truth? Ah?

Speaker 9 (01:03:53):
Men?

Speaker 4 (01:03:54):
I like men. Don't tell Joseph though, because we want
the royalties. Don't give me. No.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
I love that actually, truth and science and it's the
truth of it, right, that's the fine line that we're
all sort of looking for, Like what is the truth?
So you know, science doesn't lie. We learned this from him,
and I find that so comforting.

Speaker 4 (01:04:13):
I always feel better after talking to him.

Speaker 5 (01:04:15):
He does make it comforting, right, like because this is
graphic stuff, right, this is graphic stuff. And he does
have a way about him of explaining things, but not
like in a gross way, you know, like we're a
really gratuitous gratuitous That was the word I was looking for.

Speaker 4 (01:04:30):
See, thank you. I need Courtney more around it to
the word of the days, so that I have a
better lexicon.

Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
Need a better breaking him out right now from you party,
by the way, the you know the truth and science
will set you free. A couldn't agree more but be
in watching Amanda Knox's new new movie SERI.

Speaker 4 (01:04:55):
What are we calling it? Is a movie series? I
think it's a script series. Drama. Yeah, watching this drama
which is so amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
The truth for those of you who are watching along,
which is hopefully everybody, the truth is a really big
part of it and it makes you think all lot and.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Sometimes the truth isn't a straight line, right, it is
you know, yeah, and it's really easy to jump to conclusions,
and you know that's a really dangerous place and I think,
you know, that's what this whole community is about, where
we're all about. You know, jumping to conclusions is never
the answer, and there are right now, exactly exactly right

(01:05:36):
in real time like actively. So we have our you know,
hang out, and tomorrow is a big night too, because
we'll be discussing the Amanda Knox Show and her scripted series,
and if you want to watch the documentary, obviously do
that as well. The more Amanda Knox the better in
preparation for Thursday.

Speaker 4 (01:05:56):
That's right, let's do.

Speaker 11 (01:05:59):
Hey, ladies, it's Heather from Wisconsin. I know you guys
were discussing the Unknown Caller documentary. I just want to
say that A that lady is diabolical and crazy bananas,
but I just felt and the documentary was brilliantly done,
but I just felt a little uncomfortable watching. I felt

(01:06:19):
like they should have called the father home before they
told the daughter. Just wondering what Europeans are Also, why
was she never charged with any sex crimes towards children?
She was messaging the most deplorable obscure, insane, criminal things

(01:06:41):
to children. One of them made her own daughter, but
Owen was not her own daughter. Why was she not
charged with sex crimes?

Speaker 4 (01:06:49):
Great question, This.

Speaker 5 (01:06:50):
Is the first thing I asked by this question if
I could boycott. That's why I was so enraged by it.
Regardless of whether it was good or bad, it was entertaining.
But she was such a scary person to me. And
why in the Lord's name is she allowed to be
on a documentary and is not behind bars for sending
the most creepy, disgusting graphic text messages for like months,

(01:07:11):
eighteen months or something.

Speaker 4 (01:07:13):
It was brogus she was. If I was Owen's mother, huh.

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
Mass, Yes, this mother was so rancid and everything else
you said. I mean, there was one investigator who said,
you know, make a fifty three year old man blush.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
It was the stuff. It was unconscionable that she was sending,
and especially.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
To you know, a fourteen years eeen years old, Yeah,
fourteen years old.

Speaker 4 (01:07:38):
And this went on for years, So that to me
is a criminal act.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
And I also would have felt better knowing that she
was getting some care, you know, the poor daughter watching
her mom like with authorities and dad seeing it all
real time. Yeah, I do think that was sort of
handled indelicately for poor little Lawren's you know, well being.

Speaker 4 (01:08:01):
Yeah, it was really the dad should have been called first.
I OK. I agree that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
Local investigator and listen, it's maybe unkind to pass judgment. However,
he did not seem like the brightest bulb just period
the end.

Speaker 4 (01:08:16):
He didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
And I know that the investigative stuff that the FBI
came in with there, you know, all of the instrumentation,
everything they had was far greater. So that is not
the expectation to you know, have had those capabilities because
him and his department did not. However, when other parents
came forward and said that that detective who were referring to,

(01:08:39):
who made the choice to indeed go to the mother
who was about to be arrested and then in his
mind think he got a confession when he did not,
and to do it in front of the daughter and
to then call the father, I mean, it was missed.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
I was missed, missed a bottlement. There's two moments that
stick with me. When, of course, little Lauren was seeing
her creepy mom hanging on her while the cops are like, yeh,
by the way, it's your mom and she's like hugging
on her and like Laurence and Lawa's just sitting there
like she's frozen, like disassociating real time is what we're seeing.

(01:09:15):
And that image kind of stuck with me and made
me very angry. It's almost like when Gabby Patito was
on body cam asking for that moment when she was like,
I just want my mom, Like, oh I think about
that moment with Gabby Patito and her mom more than
I should. It like haunts me, like I hate that
that footage exists. And she had that paralyzed, such a

(01:09:39):
scared look and little Lauren, you know, with creepy mom
hanging on her like it's okay, consoling her again, you
know when she's the problem.

Speaker 5 (01:09:48):
Made me so mad and then she tried to be
like it wasn't me at the beginning. Oh, come on, no,
she had no accountability. Also, looking at the super gym,
it's like having Chad day Bell yesterday with letters is
the accountability.

Speaker 4 (01:10:02):
Even mom was like, well everybody does bad things.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
No, no, most people are not doing these bad things
to your daughter into her your daughter's fourteen year old
boyfriend weirdo not.

Speaker 4 (01:10:12):
His new girlfriend by the way, Yes, no, hard no.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
And she was still going to the like his games
and stuff after they broke up, like also a bit
of a weirdo.

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
I don't know, I did, no, and framing other teenagers
to ruin several years of what should be the most
social of their lives.

Speaker 5 (01:10:30):
You're absolutely right, like villainized her. That one girl with
the dark hair. I can't remember her name now, but
oh yeah, her dad was like Chloe was beautiful, beautiful,
her mom was a boss.

Speaker 3 (01:10:44):
And I think she was the one who called. And
I'm sorry that that investigator. He seemed like an idiot.
He seemed like an idiot. And I have to say
the there is a shot of him, and I think
that the documentary this is my perception, not reality, that
the documentary giving a nod to that fact. When they
had a shot of him putting on his hat and he's.

Speaker 4 (01:11:04):
Like what should I do? Now?

Speaker 9 (01:11:06):
Do you know what?

Speaker 4 (01:11:07):
It was a real small moment, like put your hat on,
that's what you should do. And I know he was
like do do do do do? Like there's a new
sheriff in town.

Speaker 14 (01:11:15):
I was curious it might be the same person you're
talking about, Courtney.

Speaker 4 (01:11:18):
But when he what it was like, I don't know.

Speaker 14 (01:11:20):
There were sixteen or seventeen months into, like way into
this investigation, and then he has the idea to start
running the numbers with I forgot exactly what it was
he did, but.

Speaker 4 (01:11:29):
It's like, I know it starts nine.

Speaker 9 (01:11:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
By the way, there's three hundred people in this beautiful
town called Beale, Michigan.

Speaker 4 (01:11:38):
They could have gone door to door.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
Honestly, if you had gone to every house that it
would taken you a week and a half. We would
have got We would have cased that place five times over.
We would have we would have had this handled fastening
time and fast. And I also would have liked to
have learned more. I mean, we can do it on
the show instead. Munchausen is like no one in the park, right,
So we know about Munchausen's biproxy of course from Gypsy Rose.

(01:12:03):
Her mother also you know, suffered from this illness where
you basically as a caregiver, put pain on the person
you're giving care too. Typically it's a child, typically a
daughter even and then you get all the accolades.

Speaker 4 (01:12:17):
I would have liked to have.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
Learned more about this idea with Munchausen's online and maybe
hear from a therapist about things that we should be
looking out for and how this sort of stuff kind
of starts to brew. Not to hear Kendra give me
her unaccountable answer about.

Speaker 4 (01:12:34):
How ridiculous is that bad? Yes? It was, Kendra, it
was very bad. Bars, it was very bad.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
I have to assume you were raised better than this, Candra,
you were an adult woman.

Speaker 5 (01:12:45):
But I feel like he would further than that, because
she contacted Owen's new girlfriend.

Speaker 4 (01:12:50):
She was like obsessed with him or some of course
she was.

Speaker 5 (01:12:53):
We discussed like a pedophile would be like why why
into our tech talk back, like she's right, why didn't
she gets some sort of charges against her in regards
to that, like she was sending disgusting sexual messages to
both of these teenagers. I guess yeah, I feel like
I've gotten in that poor cousin. I felt so bad,

(01:13:15):
my cousin.

Speaker 2 (01:13:16):
I've gotten into heated conversations and everyone's like, why is
Kendron not behind bars?

Speaker 4 (01:13:20):
And I was like, maybe she still can be. Maybe
this is like a backlash. I don't know, but I
didn't like the doc for that reason.

Speaker 5 (01:13:28):
I don't know how they got her to be in
this documentary. There would literally be a shape of body
Moven's body through the wall, like the kool Aid man
trying to get the Like I would not show my
face to the public ever. I would be so mortified,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
I know, instead, Kendra's doing hero shots at the school,
like in the wind, like.

Speaker 4 (01:13:52):
On the phone. The phone, she was like shooting, like
she was doing like a little play.

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
I was like, Kendra's actually start here. So I would
say that maybe charges can still be humming. And I
think we should do kind of a deeper dive on
Munchausen's by proxy and certainly the Munchausen's by proxy online factor,
given that we're so deep down this radicalization hole, I think.

Speaker 4 (01:14:18):
That would be good.

Speaker 5 (01:14:18):
I do, well, stay around, We're going to get to
some more talkbacks coming up, and give us a call
eight to eight thirty one, crying we want to hear
from you. Is your night to keep it right here
at True Grin tonight we're talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 4 (01:14:38):
You know, without further ado, let's do it another talkback.

Speaker 3 (01:14:42):
Can I hop in with a DM Are you guys,
cool with that, Oh, because I'll be honest. Yeah, this
is from Michelle. Michelle writes this DM. I'm not sure
if it is in three parts or three separate ones.
But I want to answer Michelle because I like to
write things down as well. Okay, so put your mind
in the what happened with the Idaho students and accused

(01:15:06):
murderer Brian Coburger? Okay, the ideas that Brian Coberger had
were they in a box in a glove in his
apartment or were they in his glove box in his car?

Speaker 4 (01:15:16):
They were in a glove in a box at his
house in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 2 (01:15:21):
Correct, So they weren't in the car. A lot of
people say they were in the glovebox. Good question, by
the way, that was a great, really good question.

Speaker 5 (01:15:28):
So we learned through Kevin Fixler from the Idaho Statesman,
who did an interview with Bill Thompson, and he said
that the IDs belonged to fellow employee or peers of
Brian Coberger when he worked at the school district as
a security guard. They were other security guards, They were women,
and they were IDs. We don't know what kind of ideas.

(01:15:51):
I don't know if they were like work IDs or
like you know, driver's licenses or whatnot. But they belonged
to two women that he worked with, and the women
two women were surprised. They were surprised that Brian Coberger
had their ideas. So I don't know if he broke
into their locker at work or he broke into their house. Right,
but this goes back to what Stephanie was talking about

(01:16:13):
when we were talking about like the panty sniffer kind
of situation.

Speaker 9 (01:16:15):
Right.

Speaker 5 (01:16:17):
We learned from James patterson book that he was breaking
into his friends' homes to steal things.

Speaker 4 (01:16:23):
So he was committing.

Speaker 5 (01:16:24):
Burglary at a in a pretty young age. And by young,
I mean you know, early twenties or And he also.

Speaker 2 (01:16:30):
Had he had an incident too with one of his
sisters where he stole he stole her cell phone and
then dad was so upset about it that he brought
charges on it and that was on record, and then
that kind of went away. But you know, maybe that
was an early red flag. Right, It's a small thing
in retrospect.

Speaker 5 (01:16:51):
Well if you timeline it and look at the crimes
and is escalating, right, he steals the phone, he's stealing stuff,
from his parents or his friends parents in their homes.
He's sealing IDs from women he works with. And then
he goes to school and he's really interested in sexual robbery, burglary,
sexual burglary. This is what he wants to like study,

(01:17:12):
and like he's his fascination is with this. And then
you know, is it possible that he was breaking into
the girls the home in in Moscow to commit some
sort of sexual burglary. Everything's just continually escalating. But your
to your your question, Yes, they were uh, they were
IDs found in a glove in a box at his

(01:17:32):
home in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 4 (01:17:34):
All right, Michelle, one down, number two of three.

Speaker 3 (01:17:39):
So at the time, she writes, they made it sound
like the security guard at w as you.

Speaker 4 (01:17:43):
Happened upon fbk's car and called it in.

Speaker 3 (01:17:49):
Now that we know his reputation there, meaning at the school,
how much of a coincidence was it?

Speaker 4 (01:17:55):
Really? That's a good question.

Speaker 3 (01:17:58):
I'm I'm actually gonna my two cents is that it
was a university that it was a coincidence, because it
could be it's so siloed in academia that I doubt
the security guards were aware of what you.

Speaker 4 (01:18:16):
Know was happening.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
In the criminology department versus the history department. It just
tends to say that, you know, that's that's my guess,
I think. But they did know they were going to
White Alantra, so they I.

Speaker 4 (01:18:28):
Think you're right, Corney. I think it was a coincidence.

Speaker 5 (01:18:30):
I don't think the security or the campus police really
had too much knowledge about Brian Koberger. And you know,
they had just done the bolo for the white Hundai, right,
so it all lines up. So I don't think it
was anything that anything suspicious there. I think I think
it's just a coincidence.

Speaker 4 (01:18:49):
Yeah, any two cents on that, Stephanie. I think it
was just a coincidence as well. Yeah, okay, all right, Michelle,
you're upper three, she says. Last thing. Lol.

Speaker 3 (01:19:00):
So why is that this guy gets pulled over so often?
So much footage of him getting pulled over for silly offenses?

Speaker 5 (01:19:08):
Odd?

Speaker 4 (01:19:10):
The guy had garbage luck.

Speaker 1 (01:19:12):
I mean it.

Speaker 3 (01:19:13):
You know, it has been borne out by all of
the different law enforcement offices that were involved that it
wasn't They did not know that it was just bad luck.

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):
Yeah, it's astonishing, by the way, And honestly, if you
do not believe in divine timing. I mean, I think
it points to a higher purpose, and somebody above was
making sure that there were stops along the.

Speaker 4 (01:19:40):
Way, red flag, red flag.

Speaker 2 (01:19:42):
Who gets stopped that often in two separate locations by
two separate law enforcement agencies nine minutes apart, nine minutes apart,
and without cracking Right now, Dad's in the car too.
We're not totally sure if Dad was having a sick
feeling about it or he was completely oblivious. Let's assume
the ladder and kept us cool. Brian kept us cool twice,

(01:20:05):
I would have been losing my mind. And yeah, I
think that's God.

Speaker 4 (01:20:09):
Yeah. Maybe, yeah, but really good, really good questions.

Speaker 5 (01:20:13):
Thank you for those. This is True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio.
We're talking true crime all the time. I'm here with
Steph and Courtney and we're taking your talk back. So
let's uh, let's go to one now.

Speaker 6 (01:20:23):
Hi, True Crime Tonight. This is Lily from Chicago. I've
been thinking a lot about like the Tyler Robinson thing,
and I don't know, I feel like people are just
so caught up in the idea of like is he
a leftist?

Speaker 15 (01:20:34):
Is he on the right?

Speaker 6 (01:20:35):
And I think people are just feeling to realize that
all of the stems from him being chronically online and
detached from reality.

Speaker 4 (01:20:43):
Okay, so listen, Lily in Chicago.

Speaker 5 (01:20:45):
I don't know if you're like in my head or
or what's going on, or if you listen to the
show a couple of nights ago when I said that,
but yeah, I agree.

Speaker 4 (01:20:52):
I think that I think we're going to find that
this guy had a blend.

Speaker 5 (01:20:56):
Of beliefs in you know, being having political beliefs doesn't
necessarily mean you're on the right or the left. You
could have a you could have a mix from both right,
you don't have to be on one side. I think
most of America, and you know, maybe I'm speaking on
a line here, but I think most of America kind
of is in the center right, and and it's just

(01:21:17):
these these extreme rights and these extreme lefts that are
just all the time right, and I think most people
just kind of live their life. And you know, being
where he lived, you know, he lived in a very
conservative state, right, He was raised in a very conservative household.
They were a very happy gun family. But he's also

(01:21:41):
you know, a kid in college, right, So yeah, I
think that I think he was just chronically online and
I think I said that. I think I said he
was chronically on. I think we're going to find he
was chronically online. And the reason I said that was
because of the bullets. What was engraved on these bullets.
Those are memes, like and I know this because I'm
chronically online. Like I am chronically online.

Speaker 4 (01:22:01):
I'm horrible.

Speaker 5 (01:22:02):
So I mean, they made a whole documentary about how
on chronically online, so you know what I mean, Like,
I recognize them immediately. I was like, oh my god,
this guy's a nerve. He's chronically online. These are memes.
So yeah, I agree, what do you guessing?

Speaker 3 (01:22:21):
I also think that there is too much focus on
the leanings politically, and also kind of to Body's point
that politics, much like online rhetoric in general, that we
all consume the vast majority really of people who are engaging.
And I'm not talking about outliers who are chronically online

(01:22:44):
or total ludites who don't have a computer, but you know,
in the middle are most people. And then it is
the people who are on the furthest points of view
who are the loudest. It's the loud majority that gets
the most attention.

Speaker 2 (01:23:01):
So I think I think perspective is such a powerful thing,
and I think it's really important that we allow each
other to have different perspectives. You can take a little
from both, you know, sometimes this side has some things
you really respond to and some of the other stuff
you don't.

Speaker 4 (01:23:19):
And I think we need a third party. Honestly, I
don't know what we're going.

Speaker 9 (01:23:22):
To call it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
I think its a great job with the grooming terminology.
Maybe we can come up with some new, more middle
of the road of a sensible a sensible, common sense
kindness at its core. Let's be smart, let's think together.
We're the best country in the world and we all

(01:23:44):
know this.

Speaker 4 (01:23:45):
So what is the name for that? I would like
to I think we can figure it out our audience definite, yeah,
or give us y a West Wing reference.

Speaker 3 (01:23:58):
But by the way, body, when you said when you
made loud of they made a whole documentary of me
being online, that made me laugh in my head, I'm like,
oh my goodness, what would everyone's documentary be? And we
don't need to answer right now, but if it was
like your kind of bad habit or the thing that maybe,
like I don't know, mine would be boring. First of all,

(01:24:22):
I'm sure, I'm strong.

Speaker 4 (01:24:25):
Take that. Don't your way, you'd be real fun.

Speaker 2 (01:24:30):
Don't rest assured you've all you'd all be great reality stars.
Rest assured to listen and everybody should live their lifelike
cameras are watching, Like, what are the micro decisions that
people are making when nobody is looking? You know, what
if you were on that reality show or you were
on a documentary series and yeah, who are you?

Speaker 4 (01:24:50):
Who do you want to be? And I think it matters.
So yeah, we have another talk back coming in right now.

Speaker 15 (01:24:57):
Hey, True Crime tonight. This is Sarah from Mission Again.
I just wanted to let you know that I love
hearing from Sam and Adam in the control room, and
I love hearing about great of the Kiddy Cat and
so I wanted to encourage them to keep speaking up.
It's nice to hear that they're a little bit younger
than you guys, so maybe they'd have a little bit
of a different perspective. I think I just wanted to

(01:25:18):
encourage you guys to keep talking. I love you guys.

Speaker 4 (01:25:21):
Bye, Bye, Okay, Sam and Adam had his sister Sarah, No,
that's not true.

Speaker 14 (01:25:31):
This is we did not plant this, uh and we're
hearing it. More and more people are demanding Sam and
Adam during the show.

Speaker 2 (01:25:41):
Adam show, they're the best, And to your point, they're
the best, and we are so grateful to get to
work together. And we actually have a lot of yeah
giggles together and I think it's it's real late night
love amongst us.

Speaker 4 (01:25:57):
So, guys, how often we say speak up? You want
something to say? Say it?

Speaker 14 (01:26:01):
That's right now. They're very encouraging. They're very encouraging to us.
And this is a not a bad job to come
to every night. It's a fun place to be and uh,
we're very grateful to be here. I don't know if
Sam wants to speak for himself.

Speaker 16 (01:26:13):
Yeah, yeah, this is quite the opposite of what I'm
doing in the early parts of the morning. And honestly,
if it wasn't for you, guys, this might be a harder. Yeah,
you to swallow.

Speaker 9 (01:26:25):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:26:26):
Hopefully your day job mornings aren't listening. That sounds terrible.
That guy's name was Mark exactly.

Speaker 14 (01:26:40):
Yeah, I don't know that.

Speaker 4 (01:26:44):
Was not Sam. But by the way we all met, you.

Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
Know, we only met Sam and Adam on this job, right,
so we were we were brought together via iHeart and
you know that could go sideways, you know, and I
like to say it was a LoveFest from jump.

Speaker 14 (01:27:00):
Thanks to Oscar. He had the foresight to bring us
all together.

Speaker 4 (01:27:03):
Isn't that the truth?

Speaker 2 (01:27:04):
And there's something we're trying to start a band because
you know, these guys are also to your point, they're
very hip and cool. They play instruments and Sam and
Adam are going to be We'll go ahead.

Speaker 4 (01:27:16):
You guys can speak for yourself. You know, lessons start
this weekend.

Speaker 14 (01:27:20):
Well we no, that's okay, we don't need to. This
is my mind's on radium laser Foard who's keyboard?

Speaker 4 (01:27:28):
Well that's okay. We can work it out.

Speaker 14 (01:27:30):
Well, we have a strong win section that I was.

Speaker 2 (01:27:32):
Going to say.

Speaker 4 (01:27:32):
I feel like there's clarinets.

Speaker 14 (01:27:34):
Yeah, and I did play trumpet. I was a big
trumpet player in high school.

Speaker 4 (01:27:39):
Called saxon high school. Yeah, saxophone alto saxophone man, shocker,
just be harmy. I just have to sing back up.
So no instruments here, sorry, right, that's better than nothing.

Speaker 14 (01:27:53):
I will say. It was great to have my cat
Rita immortalize on air. First time she was mentioned, I
went home and I told her that she was. She's
famous now.

Speaker 15 (01:28:04):
So.

Speaker 4 (01:28:06):
There's a show exter cleaning. She's just sitting there making
herself funny. Like Weda needs to be in the pictures, right, Like,
let's make her a showcat.

Speaker 5 (01:28:15):
So we have a little detective hat. Yes, we have
to talk about True Cremonchill. You guys back to business.

Speaker 4 (01:28:22):
Yes, sorry, Honestly, all I want to do is talk
to Sam and Adam for the.

Speaker 5 (01:28:26):
I know, I know, that's why I have to lay
the hammer down on track, but I have to lay
the hammer down.

Speaker 4 (01:28:31):
Okay, keep us on track.

Speaker 5 (01:28:32):
We're doing True Crime and Chill tomorrow and the focus
is the Amanda Knox on Hulu, the new the new series, right,
and so we're going to be talking about that tomorrow,
but then surprise, surprise, Thursday, Amanda's going to be with us.
So listen, we have we need you talk backs for
True crem and Chill, but we also need your talkbacks
for Amanda. Have you guys been following Amanda's case as

(01:28:56):
long as I have, because if you have, I know
you have questions.

Speaker 2 (01:28:58):
I know you do.

Speaker 5 (01:29:00):
Give us a call eighty eight thirty one Crime, leave
us a message and we'll play it on air, or
use the iHeartRadio app with the little microphone and leave
Amanda a message, maybe even if it's just maybe it's
just even a message of encouragement, like hey, you know,
I saw your documentary and you inspired me.

Speaker 4 (01:29:15):
Like whatever, just let us know.

Speaker 3 (01:29:17):
Or you watch Twisted Tail on Zulu and you're an
amazing EP, which I have to say.

Speaker 4 (01:29:24):
Great job. That's what has it aged. I know, I
hope she's not listening to this, but like she has not.

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
Part of the reason why I think this case happened
yesterday is because when I see her in the press,
she looks exactly the same in terms.

Speaker 4 (01:29:37):
Of that gorgeous skin.

Speaker 13 (01:29:39):
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:29:40):
Is it bad that we talked to her about skincare
all Thursday night because a commercial. I'm going to make
a note about that right now. Add that to the
list of pressing questions for Amanda. Well, listen, this one
went fast.

Speaker 4 (01:29:55):
You had again.

Speaker 2 (01:29:55):
If you missed any of the show, of course, catch
it right after as a podcast. And Tomorrow Wednesday, come on,
we're gonna true crime and chill. Make sure you watch
tonight and Amanda Knox on Thursday. Have a great night, everybody,
stay safe.

Speaker 9 (01:30:10):
Math