Mass Violence Under Investigation, the Brian Walshe Jury Deliberations, and a Second Cruise Ship Death

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's been an update to the unfolding story of the
shooting that took place at Brown University on December thirteenth,
twenty twenty five. In the middle of US taping the
live broadcast of this podcast, the Mayor of Providence and
Attorney General gave a surprise press conference at eleven o'clock
PM Eastern Standard time. Mayor Smiley said the person of
interest who had been detained was being released due to

(00:23):
lack of evidence. Rhode Island's Attorney General, Peter Narroja went
on to say, quote, it's really unfortunate that this person's
name was leaked to the public. It's hard to put
that back in the bottle. Given this updated information, we've
decided to beep the name of the now released person
of interest.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeart Radio, where we
talk true crime all the time. It's Sunday, It's December fourteenth,
and Stephanie is out tonight, but we have a stacked
night of headlines I'm Courtney Armstrong here as always with
my buddy body movin and we have producer Taha and
Sam and Adam in the control room controlling everything.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
How is everyone this Sunday?

Speaker 4 (01:25):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (01:26):
I can't believe it's Sunday? Like for real? Like, what
do we doing? Lid our weekend ago? What happened? I
literally just went to bed. It was Friday. What's happening?

Speaker 4 (01:37):
Disappears And.

Speaker 5 (01:41):
I haven't even started wrapping my presence, you guys, and
that's all I want. I've got to get it together
to get it to you have.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
Very good company.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Well, speaking of getting things together, this stack Knight of
headlines awaits Oh yeah. The jury is set to continue
deliberations tomorrow in the trial of accused Massachusetts wife killer
Brian Walsh. We'll get into some of that. There's been
a shocking case of homicide on a cruise that we're
going to present to you. It's a new case, and

(02:12):
forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan joins us. We're analyzing the
tragic scene of Anna Kepner's cruise death, and he's going
to analyze much much more. First, on a really somber note,
we of course, want to acknowledge the two tragic shootings
they took place over the weekend. Body, can you bring

(02:32):
us up to speed about what happened at Brown University.

Speaker 5 (02:36):
Yeah, this story is just developing, you know. So this
is as of airing right now. So December thirteenth, of
shooting occurred at Brown University's Engineering and Physics building in Providence,
Rhode Island, leaving two people dead and nine others injured.
He's twenty four years old. Has been detained as a
person of interest. He previously served in the US Army

(02:59):
from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty four as an
infantry specialist and has no known or criminal record. Authorities
are investigating its mental health history and connection to the university. So,
the shooting took place yesterday. It was at the Barrass
and Holly Building, which houses Brown Universities Engineering and Physics departments.
It happened in the afternoon while students were in the

(03:20):
building studying. Eyewitnesses described a stampede like chaos as the
gunman opened fire. There's been videos that have been released
just recently that some of the students took from inside
the building of them hiding and it's terrifying. I watched
it about twenty five minutes ago, just before we went
to air, and it's horrifying. The several students remained hospitalized,

(03:42):
showing resilience despite their injuries, and police were on the
Queen on the scene very quickly escorting students out of
the building after securing it. After the attack, law enforcement
launched a really extensive manhunt, releasing surveillance footage of an
individual described as wearing a dark clothing leaving the scene,
and they were, you know, I don't know if you

(04:03):
guys watch it at all or not, but I watched it.
You know, it was happening, and there was a lot
of confusion in the press about, you know it, had
he been caught or had he not been taught He
had not been caught, but the press and some other
outlets were saying that he had been apprehended, and the
people in Providence were like, no, no, no, no. State.
You know, everybody needs to shelter in place and stay safe.

(04:24):
And it was really scary. But they did catch somebody
early this morning, following hours and hours of pursuit by
law enforcement. The person of interest was found at a
hotel in Coventry, Rhode Island, roughly fifteen to seventeen miles
away from Brown University. Authorities reportedly use cell phone geodata

(04:47):
and a public tip to locate, which is pretty interesting.
And yeah, again this is all developing, so I'm sure
we're going to get a little bit more details as
us develops, but this is just what we know right now.
And so the arrest, they located, firearms, they loaded. Two
firearms were recovered, including a handgun equipped with laser sight

(05:07):
that law enforcement sources may have been connected to the shooting. Yeah,
Brown University canceled all remaining fall semester classes, exams, and projects,
offering students options for grading or delayed submissions. Students to
place from the residence halls where provided support. And again
these videos and eyewitness accounts showing the students hiding between

(05:30):
library shelves and barricading doors. This is the video I saw.
It's really really sad, you guys. But they did say
that doing some of the drills, the active shooter drills
that they've been probably been doing their whole life up
until this point, helped them navigate the situation.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
I saw that as well, and it gave me such
mixed feelings because yeah, many, if not most, of our
collective children are having these drills. I mean they call
it something else, but it often starts in kindergartens.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
So it's yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
So on the one hand, it's great that it was
of some help and also just a sad stand.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
Now, it's a sad reality. That's ut it is.

Speaker 6 (06:12):
So.

Speaker 5 (06:12):
The police have not publicly released detailed information about the
sequence of shots fired, or the shooter's exact movements inside
the building, or the type of firearm you, citing the
need to preserve evidence for pending charges. Police emphasized that
charges against this person of interest could be filed soon,
but as of right now, nothing yet. And see, you know,

(06:34):
right before you know we went live, I was of
course researching as much as I could, and there is
some possible new information. He has a LinkedIn page, and
on this LinkedIn page, he says that he held a
position at Arlington National Cemetery. He's twenty four years old.
He's a Wisconsin native. He was an infantry soldier where
he passed sniper training, had experienced with firearms instructions, and

(06:56):
had served as a rifleman. Between twenty twenty one and
twenty twenty four. He also says on this LinkedIn page
that he planned to continue his college education at Brown
University in the fall of twenty twenty five. Authorities say
that this person of interest was not a current student
at Brown, but law enforcement sources indicate to CNN that

(07:18):
he might have been recently enrolled. So right now, again,
it's all developing, and that's all we really know so far.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean considering that there are local, state,
and federal agencies. There's FBI, there's atf people, everyone's hungry
for information, so it makes sense.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
Yeah, that's there can get a little clouded, but right,
and so this.

Speaker 5 (07:41):
Is an active investigation, you know, right, there's so many
more things that they have to look into so before
they'll come out officially. This is just the scuttle. But
right now, yeah, this is the scuttle. But right now,
so this is true crime. Tonight on iHeartRadio, we're talking
true crime all the time. I'm body. I'm here with
Courtney tuhu Adam, and we were talking about the two

(08:02):
shootings that happened over the weekend, and you know, I
just kind of went over the one at Brown University,
but there was also a really terrible terrorist attack in
Australia on the first day of Hanukkah, Courtney, what do
you have?

Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yeah, that's exactly right.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
So it was a little confusing because Australia is ahead
of us time wise, so it was you know today
their time. It was December fourteenth that you said, the
first day of Hanukah. And two men, it's a father
and son, ages fifty and twenty four, they opened fire
at a Honukkah celebration on Bandai Beach in Australia. The

(08:38):
pair killed fifteen people, The pair injured forty others and
the fifty year old shooter, the father, was killed by
police and the twenty four year old son was critically
injured and hospitalized under police guard. And indeed, authorities have
declared the incident a terrorist attack targeting the Jewish community

(09:00):
and are continuing to investigate. So a couple of more details.
These two men opened fire at a Honaka celebration called
Honka by the Sea again at Bandai Beach in Sydney,
which I've had the pleasure of being and it's wonderful.

Speaker 5 (09:18):
And you have to remember too, it's summer there, that's right,
it's summer in Australia. It's the first day of Hanukkah.
They're having this big celebration. There's a lot of people
there for this.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
Right. This is horrible, right and so rare, which if
we have time, we'll get to how real this is
in Australia. Sure, But of the fifteen people who were killed,
the victims range in age from ten to eighty seven,
and of the forty others who have been hospitalized, there
are five in critical conditions. So we of course will

(09:52):
update you as this continues. The shooters used long guns
to fire into the crowd, and the fifty year old
dad was a licensed firearms holder. He had six registered
guns which were legal under Australia's very strict firearm regulations.
At this point in time. It is unknown if the
twenty four year old son was licensed. And there was

(10:15):
an act of bravery.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
I don't know. Wow, if you guys, yees I saw that.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
For anyone who hasn't seen this video, there was a
bystander who has been identified as forty three year old.
He's from Sydney and he owns a fruit stand and
his name is Ahmed al Ahmed, and he approached the
father who you see with the long gun, which to
my very untrained eye appeared to be what three feet
long or this was a very long i've ever seen.

Speaker 5 (10:43):
I maybe no idea what kind of gun it was,
but it's huge.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Well, this bystander hero, Ahmed al Ahmed, came up upon
the father who was actively shooting. He wrestled the gun
away from him. It was so brave. He did sustain
two gunshot wounds in the process. However, he survived the encounter,
thank god, and two police officers, a constable and a

(11:11):
probationary constable, were injured while confronting the shooters as well.

Speaker 7 (11:16):
That video that I was just going to go in
and say, like I mean, that had me like that
took my breath away.

Speaker 5 (11:22):
I was really nervous for him because so the shooter
has his back to the bystanderd Ahmed, right, and Ahmed
comes up like kind of behind him, right and kind
of tackles him and rustles the gun away, and then
he's got the gun, right, He's got Ahmed has the gun,
and the terrorist is kind of like backing off. And
I was so worried that police, We're going to be like,

(11:44):
that's our guy, right, And yes, you're going to get
the wrong person. It is terrifying, Like I was, Oh
my god, I couldn't believe it. This guy was very brave.

Speaker 4 (11:54):
More heroes like that in life.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
Really Yeah, And and he did fairly quickly.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
It felt like a long time.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
The body I had the same thing as you see
this bystander holding the gun for the brief moment when
the shooter backs away from him. A. I was wondering, oh,
same as you, will he be shot? B does the
shooter have another gun on his person? But Ahmed Alahmed
put the gun down and immediately sort of raised his
hands up. The smart guy.

Speaker 4 (12:22):
And when you just mentioned I didn't realize he.

Speaker 5 (12:24):
Had been shot as well, I didn't either.

Speaker 4 (12:26):
Like he looks, you know, he's very together at that moment.

Speaker 5 (12:29):
So anyway, it was probably his adrenaline, right, like he
just wrestled this guy to he wrestled him to the ground. Yeah,
snatched the gun maybe in the in the wrestling that
made he I don't know, because this gun is huge, crazy,
so I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
And we'll try and give you an accurate like find
out how long. But at this moment, authorities are not
seeking any additional suspects. They did, however, discover multi suspicious
items near the scene. This includes objects believed to be
improvised explosive devices. They are being examined by specialists. Yeah,

(13:10):
and Australian leaders and international figures. This includes the UN,
the United States, France, the British Royals. Everyone collectively has
condemned the attack and security measures were heightened at Jewish
sites worldwide in response.

Speaker 3 (13:28):
Which is another thing.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
It's a sad reality that now this, you know, in
such a beautiful time of year.

Speaker 5 (13:37):
It's the first night of Hanukkah, and this happens at
this beautiful celebration in the summertime on the beach.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
A couple of information. So Australia back in nineteen ninety
six had the Port Arthur massacre, and at yeah, which
is down in Tasmania. I've also been lucky enough to
visit that site. And after that massacre, the government enacted
very strict controls that included banning semi automatic and massive

(14:12):
mandatory buybacks, and that action drastically cut mass shootings and
overall gun deaths. The US, my contrast, sees tens of
thousands of gun deaths annually. We do have weaker regulations
in Australia, and the US fire ommortality rate is significantly higher,

(14:33):
around twelve to fourteen per one hundred thousand versus less
than one per one hundred thousand Australia's just for a
little bit of numbers.

Speaker 5 (14:45):
Wow, I mean, I guess if you can have six
guns though, I mean.

Speaker 7 (14:48):
It's still that's still a pretty the amount, still a lot.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
Yes, I was actually surprised when I had read that.
But you have to be licensed and whatnot. I'm sure
there's probably some sort of background checks that go on.
I mean, they have to be structurer than us in
some sense.

Speaker 7 (15:05):
Right, I was about to say, I wonder if their
background checks are a little stricter, if they have policies
that make it a little more difficulty.

Speaker 5 (15:12):
I know here in Nevada, I can walk in twenty minutes.
I can have a gun twenty minutes and I don't
have that registerrate or anything because I have guns. So yeah,
it's crazy. Well, when we come back, the jury now
has the case of Brian Walsh, accused of killing his
wife Anna. Forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan joins us to
discuss the evidence jurors are away. Keep it right here,

(15:34):
True Crime Tonight. This is your Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio,
where we're talking to crime all the time. I'm body
moving and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and guess who else?
Guess who else is in here with us right now,

(15:56):
right now, we are joined by our favorite forensic death investigator,
the one only, Professor Joseph Scott Morgan. Welcome Joseph Sunday
you guys.

Speaker 8 (16:06):
Happy Sunday to you guys, to the highlight of my week.
Enjoy being with my fan out there. I hope you
guess all doing well.

Speaker 5 (16:18):
Are you ready to dig into this Brian wal stuff?

Speaker 8 (16:21):
Let's do it. Let's I've been following it all week,
matter of fact, the last couple of weeks and uh
super bizarro uh and a very difficult taste prove.

Speaker 5 (16:31):
Oh absolutely, let's u. I understand, we got to talk back.
Let's let's hit it up.

Speaker 6 (16:35):
Hi, this is Robin from Kentucky. I've got a question
about the Brian Walsh case. Where were his children when
he was allegedly dismembering her in the basement? And also
where are his children? Now? Thank you? Keep up the fantastic.

Speaker 5 (16:54):
Work, great, great question. The kids, right, the three children,
and Brian Walsh told investigators that he took one of
his children for an ice cream at a juice bar
on the second of January while the babysitter watched his
two other kids. This is in the affat Davids and

(17:16):
investigators did confirm that the strip occurred. However, no babysitter
testified at the trial, so really, I don't know that
anybody knows for certain where the kids were while he
was dismembering his beautiful wife on a Walsh in the basement.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Also important to note, Brian Walsh has pled guilty to
misleading investigators right, so I personally take everything he said,
particularly with no corroborating testimony. With a hunk assault, you would.

Speaker 5 (17:48):
Be smart to do that. And the kids right now,
I believe they're in the custody of the Department of
Children and Family Services. I know there was a lot
of talk about Anna's family. She is from Serbia, I believe,
and I believe that her mother at one point was
going to try to get the children, but that's not

(18:10):
on the table anymore. I'm not sure what the status
of that is. You know, all that kind of stuff
is kept very quiet, you know, Department of Family Services
usually don't comment on those kinds of things. But what
a great question. Thank you for that talk back. The
jury in the accused of Massachusetts wife killer Brian Walsh's
murder trial began deliberating on Friday, December twelfth, after hearing

(18:31):
closing arguments. Brian Walsh, for those who aren't familiar, is
accused of killing his wife, Anna Walsh around New Year's
Day of twenty twenty three in their cohacent Massachusetts home.
Brian Walsh has pled guilty to lesser charges of misleading
police and disposing of Anna Walsh's body, but he denies

(18:54):
first degree murder. Prosecutors argued that Brian Walsh premeditatively killed
his wife on A. Walsh, while the defense claims Brian
found Anna died unexpectedly. She she was so dead she
rolled off her bed, is what he said. It's kind
of insane. Again, he's charged with first degree murder in

(19:14):
this alleged killing of his wife, But if they don't
see that there was any premeditation, they jurors can decide
it was second degree murder. Because there's a lot of
questions I've seen on Twitter about this. Can they still
if they don't think it was premeditated? Can he will
he get will he walk free? No, that's not how
it works in Massachusetts. Under Massachusetts law, juries are required

(19:35):
to determine the degree of murder whether a conviction is returned,
even when the defendant is charged only with first degree murder.
So I just wanted to get that out of the
way before we move on.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (19:47):
So the defense starts, they're closing arguments, right, and they
start out and they're emphasizing that Brian Walsh did lie
to police. There is evidence that he searched the internet,
there is evidence that he disposed the body, but there
is no proof none whatsoever, that he ever once thought
about harming the woman he loved. That's the basis of

(20:10):
their case, right, Yeah, he admits, you know, there's evidence
so that he disposed of the body, that he did
these weird searches. But it all happened after she died,
you know, it all happened after she died. He found her,
she was dead, he panicked, and he disposed of her body,
and he admits that. So that's basically the the crux
of their closing argument, right. The defense did stress forensic gaps.

(20:35):
Nothing violent happened in that house, pointing out blood was
not found in the bedroom or nearby bathrooms, only in
the basement. Again, remember they found blood underneath the carpet,
underneath the floor in the basement, and that was used
to counter the narrative that a violent act occurred in
living spaces that the you know, the prosecution is kind

(20:56):
of laying out. So then the prosecution gets up there
and they do their closing argument.

Speaker 8 (21:00):
Right.

Speaker 5 (21:01):
Prosecutors framed the murder as motivated by Brian Walsh's need
to resolve financial problems and to avoid going to prison
for his art fraud conviction. Remember had mentioned that, you know,
one of the things that he said was that Anna
was missing, right, right, and that how can they send
him to prison for this art fraud when he's got

(21:21):
three boys at home to take care of what the
missing wife. That's kind of like what people are thinking.
Some of the motive was not only that, but the
two point seven million dollars in insurance life insurance that
Anna had that Brian was beneficiary of.

Speaker 4 (21:36):
Right, gotcha, okay?

Speaker 8 (21:38):
Right?

Speaker 5 (21:38):
So, prosecutors argued that the defenses theory of a sudden
natural death is implausible. Anna Walsh dying a sudden death
of natural causes defies common sense. She was in great shape.
And for those who don't know, they have never recovered
Anna's body to do any testing, so nobody knows anything
about how she died. Right, But the prosecution said that

(22:00):
this was premeditated and planned, and he killed her, he
dismembered her, and he disposed of her body and reported
her missing. And the defense is saying, not so fast.
It was the sudden, the sudden death occurrence that happened.
Brian found her and panicked, and he didn't want to
expose his children to any sadness, so he just said

(22:21):
she disappeared, like they wouldn't be sad about their mother
running away.

Speaker 7 (22:24):
Disappeared, cut her up as a solution. Right, But I'm
going back again. So it's supposed a sudden, unexplained death.
And I'd love to bring Joseph in and just ask
him about that, because I'm not I know, I think
we talked about this before. The sudden suddenly unexplained death
is just such a peculiar terminology. It's such a weird Joseph,
any validity to that is there any way, that that

(22:46):
could actually be what's your feeling on.

Speaker 8 (22:49):
That, Yeah, it is, and this is a double edged sword.
You bring this up, but yet you don't explain it,
you being the defense, because I was. I was actually shocked.
Going back to the opening statement, that's what they went with.
That's what defense went with. You know, the defense said, yeah,
this is a sudden unexplained death. Well, there's actually a
syndrome out there that's called SAD. It's a sudden adult

(23:12):
death syndrome, just like SIDS, and it does happen. There's
a certain percentage of the population that dies of non
specific causal factors, just like with babies. It's a very
small percentage. Probably over the course of my career, I
have worked them where we just don't have anything to
scientifically hang our hat on, and there is a classification

(23:36):
for that. But you know, they really failed. I thought,
you know, the defense didn't really put any well, they
put nothing up. Would it Wouldn't it have been really
cool if that's just looking at this from a logical standpoint,
If that's what you're going to go with, Okay, bringing
a cardio pulmon their specialist, bringing a forensic pathologist that

(23:57):
has done research in this area, because they do exist.
But the moments stand and talk about it, talk about
you know what presents. It can just come up out
of the out of the blue, and this has happened
with perfectly healthy, healthy people. But you know, they just
they just stopped abruptly and then all they did was
just simple plant that seed without any further explanation. That's

(24:20):
that's one of those things that requires because you guys
are actually sitting here and you're saying, is that even plausible? Well,
the jury's thinking that too, because they've got to make
a decision do we turn this guy with first? I
mean it, it's not even guilty of first, it's not
even guilty of second. And we're going to put him away.
He's going to lose his life, he's going to lose
his kids. And so that's rolling through their minds right now.

(24:42):
I can guarantee it.

Speaker 4 (24:44):
And also how he's an expert in this, like how
does he identify? How do you look over and say, oh, yeah.

Speaker 5 (24:51):
How could he diagnose this?

Speaker 6 (24:52):
Right? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (24:53):
That's good?

Speaker 8 (24:54):
Yeah, yeah, And it is. It is truly a diagnosis
of what's referred to exclusion. It's very complex, so you
have to go through literally there's a checklist where you
look under every every stone to try to find an
answer before you arrive on this. He's suddenly taking this

(25:14):
gigantic leap and his team is selling this to the court.
I'm going to be very interested to see how this
plays out. Can I go back to one thing that
you guys had mentioned just a second ago, you talk
about premeditation. There's one, you know, that laundry list that
they had in the search. It's one of the things
that really struck me on there. Some of the stuff,

(25:38):
not all of it, but some of the stuff was
more passive than other things. But when I saw that
one little bullet that has been coming up in all
these documents about can you identify I know I'm going
to get this wrong. You guys correct me. Please, can
you identify a body who his teeth had been destroyed
or fractured or cracked or whatever it is. That's one

(25:59):
of the thing, My god, that is very violent. I mean,
that's and I know that even if the search was
done afterwards on the internet, it's still a level of
violence against the did so that implies that you could
potentially be violent against living I don't know I agree.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yeah, there's a lot of questions in this case. This
is true crime tonight. I'm Courtney Armstrong. Here is always
with body Moven and we are joined this evening with
forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan. We're talking about the Brian
Walsh case. If you're just joining us, he has been
accused of murdering his wife, Anna Walsh and has pled

(26:40):
guilty to dismembering her. If you have thoughts, listen, either
leave us a talk back or give us a call.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Eighty eight to three one Crime.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
Joseph particularly is here to answer anything forensic. So, Joseph,
you mentioned how the defense mentioned it this sudden unexplained
death and then.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
Just dropped it.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
But yeah, you know, seeing how this has played out,
I think it's probably kind of a smart legal tactic
because everyone does simply have questions and what do you
need as what do you want as a defense attorney?
You just want questions. So, on the one hand, you
can't prove it was sudden, unexplained death. How are you

(27:23):
going to disprove it?

Speaker 8 (27:24):
Though? Yeah, and forgive me, that's one of my big faults.
That's a gigantic fault of mine. From a scientific standpoint,
I want to teach and explain things to people. That's
not the job of the defense attorney. Their job is
to plant the seed. They're not there to give a
lecture on sudden adult death Centro. They're there to try

(27:45):
to get this guy off the hook if they can.
And yeah, and it breeds confusion in the jury room,
and that's that's the end game here, I think, because
you know that question is does a reasonable doubt? Right? Y'all?
So they're trying that's all I need plant that into
the brain. That's all they need. They just need one right, right,

(28:05):
And so that's you know, that's what they're looking at here,
well said, or yeah, you're right, you're absolutely right.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
In your opinion, Joseph.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
With how the trial has unfolded so far, do you
find that there is evidence of murder or only dismemberment?

Speaker 3 (28:21):
If you say you're on the jury.

Speaker 8 (28:25):
Well, I think that one of the things that jury's
always want to know what's cause of death? Is that's
just right, that's and I think that any of us,
if we were on a jury, we would want to
know what cause of death is. You're charging the skuy
with homicide, which means death at the hand of another.
If that's what you're charging him with, Okay, how do

(28:46):
you do it? We want to know that that's a
moving dollar question. All right, So no, I mean, and
I think you start talking about the blood, the deposition
of blood that they found that house. There was nothing
necessarily dynamic about it, you know, like a blast you know,
from a firearm or bludgeoning or even a cutting. But

(29:09):
you know, one of the things that you skip over here,
and that's the universal you not you. One of the
universal things that skipped over here is the idea that
you can have a homicide without it being true violent,
you know, truly violent blood. You have sufcation, you got poison,
you have strangulation. There's nothing you know, you don't have

(29:31):
to shed blood in order to kill somebody.

Speaker 5 (29:33):
Right, Well, they could that. I don't know if you remember,
but on day I think day two or day three,
they mentioned that there was a hole cut in the
ceiling of the bedroom and they found the plaster from
this this cold cutting, some of the plaster in their nightstand.
And so there's been a lot of you know him

(29:54):
hand back and forth about why was that ceiling tile
cut something or blood spray, but I feel I feel
like it would be a lot larger than what the
tile was described as the blood spread, or would be
a lot more.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
But yeah, and to clarify, body, are you talking about
investigators took a tile out or this.

Speaker 5 (30:19):
Happened it happened prior to the investigators being there.

Speaker 4 (30:24):
Huh.

Speaker 5 (30:24):
Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
Yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 5 (30:28):
They've never explained what this, what this why they think
Brian Walsh or on A Walsh or whoever removed this
piece of tie or piece of ceiling from their bedroom.

Speaker 4 (30:41):
That's very interesting.

Speaker 5 (30:42):
But I do think it's going to be a di
strangulation type thing.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
I do.

Speaker 5 (30:49):
Yeah, I was just going.

Speaker 7 (30:50):
To ask not a single were anybody parts found?

Speaker 4 (30:53):
I can't just want to picture.

Speaker 5 (30:55):
Their ownes and tissue.

Speaker 8 (30:58):
I believe issue that was related to the actual dismemberment,
which is, hey, guys, urban cases that they have convicted
people on with far less physical evidence. And so we'll
see how this plays out over I think in the
next few days.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, absolutely, well, we will keep you up to speed.
Later in the show, we're going to be talking about
how the scene of Anna Kepner's tragic cruse death should
be analyzed forensically. Joseph Scott Morgan is going to help
us break it down with his forensic expertise.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
But now we're going to hop back in. If you're
just joining us.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
We have been talking about jury deliberations are happening in
the accused Massachusetts wife killer Brian Walsh murder trial. And
Brian Walsh has been accused of killing his wife victim,
Anna Walsh in twenty twenty three New Year's Eve, and
Brian Walsh's pleaded guilty to misleading police and more important,

(32:00):
in my opinion, just memboring and disposing of Anna Walsh's body.
He Vingly denies first degree murder. And there's a couple
of lingering questions. So taha you had one particularly, Yes.

Speaker 4 (32:12):
I did.

Speaker 7 (32:13):
I had one for Joseph, which, first of all, Joseph,
I'm always excited when you're here because I'm like, your
your number one fan, which well, that sounded creepy, sounded
like a bad Stephen King character. But anyway, but my
point is I love when you're here because I can
ask all the questions that I'm embarrassed to ask because
they kind of sound dumb, but you do it and
you answer.

Speaker 4 (32:32):
Them in such a nice way.

Speaker 7 (32:33):
But you were saying earlier, like someone mentioned that it
was a little bit of evidence like that was found,
like tissues or like a bone or some bones and things.
But if let's say she was poisoned, is that enough
to work with to derman if someone was poisoned, or
to even give some deeper clues to the cause of death.

Speaker 8 (32:54):
I would list more toward probably implausible. Uh, you would
have to have you would have to have more than
a stain from of blood to facilitate that with I
think that it would be a real uphill battle for

(33:15):
you. You would need a significant amount of sample in order
to facilitate some kind of broad ranging study, like a
toxicology panel, in order to facilitate that. And I think
that I think that one of the things that you
would want to do is to go through the house,
probably on one end of the spectrum, and say, what

(33:39):
do we find in here that were potentially agents that
could have been used? Was there anything that had known
lethality to it, some substance in there that could have
been applied, And at that point in time, you go
back to the suspect and said, we found this in
your house. Can you explain it and at least get
him on record for saying that I just don't know

(34:00):
if there would be enough tissue left behind.

Speaker 4 (34:04):
Well, okay, well I think body there was a little
bit more of the case.

Speaker 5 (34:09):
There's a little bit more that. So the jury has
the case now, right, so they've started deliberations, and I
kind of just wanted to touch on that very briefly
because there was a question the jury asked. In oftentimes,
we always like to kind of like talk about why
the jury asked this question because it's very telling. Yes
in most cases, right, So we don't know exactly what

(34:32):
the jury asked, but they asked to see another picture, okay,
and the picture so the judge did not publicly state
the jury's question, so again we don't know exactly what
they asked. But she responded that the photo in question
is Exhibit ninety seven and provided a full exhibit list
for reference. So Exhibit ninety seven was a photo showing

(34:54):
the victim on a Walsh lying on a rug in
the living room in the Walsh home. Well, that same rug.
Prosecutors are saying, or they argue that Brian Walsh disposed
of that rug after it was covered in blood and
then bought a replacement at home Goods. We saw Brian
on camera at home Goods with the rug in the cart.

(35:15):
It was the replacement rug he was buying because the
one that was on his living room floor had blood
all over it. And they found that rug in the
dumpster near Brian Walsh's mother's home, along with like packsaw
and the Taivik suit and tool the tools that he

(35:36):
used to dismember on our Walsh. So it's interesting they
asked to see that picture, and I don't why did
they want.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
To see that picture?

Speaker 5 (35:46):
Did they want to make sure it was the same rug?

Speaker 7 (35:48):
Maybe that's yeah, that is an interesting one. Yeah, maybe
to kind of compare the two, I'd love to pick
the three of your brains now that you have a
lot of these little clues, and especially Joseph and Body
and Courtey, like, do you have a theory, asto or
an idea of what potentially happened? Like it sounds like
a body was dragged somewhere else and kind of but

(36:10):
what do you what do you I'd love to hear
what each of you kind of thinks a little bit,
and then we'll move on to something else.

Speaker 5 (36:15):
Body I think she was strangled.

Speaker 3 (36:18):
I do.

Speaker 5 (36:18):
I think the prosecutors also think she was strangled. You know,
it takes a while to strangle someone, and you don't
need a lot of time for premeditated murder. You if
you're strangling somebody and you follow through with it, that's
premeditated murder.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (36:35):
And I think that's why they're they're pushing so hard
for first to pree murder. Have they proved their case,
that's like the bigger question for me. I don't know
that they have. I do think it's possible the jury
could come back with second degree.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
That's what Okay, okay, okay. My prediction is the jury
will come out with first degree. I know this is circumstantial.
I also do agree that the defense has done a
really good job of leading a lot of questions answering
and then taha, if part of your question was the how,

(37:10):
I would just be guessing in the wind. So I
have you know whether it be poison or something. It
does seem to appear or the evidence points to the
fact that when and if Brian Walsh did do something
to end his wife's life, that it wasn't a bloody incident.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
So that is my two cents. What about you, Joseph.

Speaker 8 (37:34):
Yeah, I'm going to list. I'd have to list to
to some kind of assicial event, whether it's a suffocation, strangulation,
that would be. That's where I put my money in
this particular case, because it's such an intimate thing. It's
probably of all homicides, is probably the most intimate, and

(37:56):
there's a lot of anger here, and there's a certain
amount of power. I think that's projected onto the victim
of this individual literally having that person's life in their
hands in a literal sense, where they have power power
over life and death. They can literally squeeze. Let me
see if I can say literally one more time, where

(38:17):
they can squeeze a life out of somebody. I think
that's very important here, you know, to keep in mind,
I could see that happening. As for an outcome, I
don't know. I mentioned the South Air. I'm not a
real big fan of the idea of getting the thing
going after everybody's waited all this time and you send

(38:38):
them home for the weekend. I think that that's that's
it's moving all. I just I don't I don't agree
with that. I think that they're better served by pressing
on even into the evening and say, okay, we're cutting
you loose right now, come back in the morning, because

(38:58):
now they're going to go home all this entire weekend.
First off, you've got the temptation of the news media
of course, of peaking, you know, and we're not saying
they're dishonest. People were saying they're humans. Maybe you're going
to be wringing your hands all weekend long thinking about
the possibility to have to come back over in Monday
and try to restart the engine again, you know, where

(39:19):
you established the little relationships with everybody and all that stuff.
I just I don't see it. I don't you know,
why not go ahead, just pushboard and get this thing done. Yeah,
So I think that that's a misstep on the part
of the judge.

Speaker 5 (39:34):
I do too. I actually don't like that either. I
think they should have just finished it out. I think
they could have been done by a Saturday afternoon. But
I mean, I guess it really depends on what's happening
in that jury room, and we don't we don't really know.

Speaker 8 (39:44):
I think that you can literally change the nature of
the kill.

Speaker 5 (39:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
Do judges have a Yeah, I don't know the answer
to this.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Do judges have the capacity to if a jury has
not been sequestered, say mid stream, okay, now you will
be sequestered.

Speaker 4 (40:04):
Oh that's a good question.

Speaker 5 (40:05):
I don't think they would sequestion them.

Speaker 8 (40:06):
I think they would just.

Speaker 5 (40:07):
Ask them to come back the next day, so court
on Saturday, yea, which is round upon you know. Yeah,
I just wish sometimes because you know, because once that train,
like to your point, Joseph, like once it leaves the station,
once they go home, Now they have to restart, you know, like, okay.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
Where were we? Where were we Friday?

Speaker 5 (40:26):
What were we looking at?

Speaker 3 (40:27):
What's going on?

Speaker 5 (40:28):
What's everybody's vote count? What's you know what I mean,
they have.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
To start all over.

Speaker 5 (40:31):
It's a but I don't know.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
I actually disagree because that's with the assumption that it
will take something light. You know, they had a half
a day, so something like thirteen hours versus I mean,
sometimes deliberations can really go on a long time.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
So that a good point.

Speaker 4 (40:51):
I don't know, that's an interesting angle.

Speaker 7 (40:54):
But well, we'll keep following this one because that that
is this I'm dying to find out what happens dying
in this thing.

Speaker 4 (41:01):
But I can't wait to find out what happens.

Speaker 5 (41:03):
So well, if you want to weigh in and what
do you think, what do you think happened, what do
you think the verdict's going to be, and what do
you think about the jury going home for the weekend.
Give us a call eighty eight thirty one Crime or
hit us on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app. And
I guess we have a talkback right now.

Speaker 9 (41:17):
Hey guys, this is Timothy from Sedona, Arizona. Longtime listener,
love your show. I just have a question for Joseph.
I want to know when is he going to release
an audible or at least an audiobook version of him
reading Blood Beneath my Feet because I think we all
need that.

Speaker 5 (41:37):
Thanks God, Oh my god, that's a great idea.

Speaker 8 (41:41):
Yeah, I always have people, Hey, Timothee, thank you for asking. Sadona,
by the way, it is one of my favorite place.

Speaker 5 (41:46):
So beautiful there.

Speaker 8 (41:48):
I would love to go back sometime really really soon.
I'd love it. There's so much peace there for me.
But yeah, I've had a lot of people ask me
about Blood Beneath my Feet and whether i'd do an audio.
I would like to. I just need to be able
to find the time to facilitate that.

Speaker 7 (42:09):
Can you fill in people who aren't familiar with that,
like what you're referring to for those who aren't familiar
with it.

Speaker 8 (42:16):
Yeah, it's my memoir. I wrote it all the way
back in twenty twelve. In twenty thirteen, I won Georgia
Author of the Year for it. One of the Hollywood
sniff around sniff around it for a long long time
over the years. And you know, you never can get
a solid bite or a commitment, you know, as many

(42:37):
people know when that happens. But it's it's an interesting
I think there was an interesting read and got a
lot of got a lot of tracks out of it
and a lot of interest. As a matter of fact,
I got to a quick story. I wrote an article
for Vice Magazine in the wake of that, and I

(42:59):
had I went into Last One Day and all. And
this is back when Vice still had a magazine. And
I told my students back in fourteen, I said, hey, guys,
I just got contacted by these people at Vice magazine.
Have you guys ever heard of this? A college students,
you got contacted by Vice magazine? And I was like, yeah,

(43:20):
what what the hell is that and they were, oh,
you got to write something, and they did a true
crime edition believe it or not back then, and so
I wrote an article and it The article actually spurred
the book because the article is reprinted like eight different languages,
and it was called the life the life and death
plural of a medical legal death investigator. And I opened

(43:43):
up the world to people that had never heard of
medical legal death investigation. It was very well received.

Speaker 7 (43:49):
So wow, Well, whoever this person is that left the
talk back, I agree with them. I would love to
hear your voice because I could listen to you all day,
so that would work me. But everyone, I have another
question for you, Joseph, since we're throwing out questions. Last week,
we were talking a lot about a situation with Brian

(44:10):
Coberger and how he's been a little particular about his
food in prison, and we actually got to talk back,
and I'd love to hear what you think about the
subject matter. But let's let's go to that talk back
first and then we'll get your opinion.

Speaker 10 (44:22):
Good morning, everyone, just been listening to your updates on
Brian Coburger with the bananas. I really just think he
wants to keep his name out there and you know,
as I said, no one ewing before all of this
just really irritates me that he's complaining. What's he think?
It's a three star hotel, full star, five.

Speaker 7 (44:43):
Star, and so I'm not sure Joseph had you if
you're up to speed, and if for anyone else out
there listening, he was. He's been complaining to the prison
officials about the bananas. Just think aren't the ones that
he likes. What's your feeling on that in our last
two minutes before we rap.

Speaker 8 (45:06):
Dude, you need to find whatever life you have and
get it, because you don't have a life. You need
to do that. You need to back off of this
because you're the big problem is I think in that environment,
in that world of being incarcerated, you're putting a huge
target on yourself every time you open your mouth and
you complain about everything. No one in a prison environment

(45:30):
wants to have the perception somebody else is getting different
or better treatment than they are, and you have to
you have to adapt. I don't think this. I don't
think he has ever been forced to adapt to anything
in his life. He's a petulant child, is what he is,
and that's the way he's going to behave and until
that's correct it he'll continue to do this and that

(45:52):
could be very dangerous for him to continue to do this.
If he's in gin Pop, it's going to be a
problem for him. He needs to get his situations straightened
out in.

Speaker 5 (46:04):
Well, I'm sure he's getting therapy, right like I mean,
people in prison do get counseling. I would imagine that
he's getting therapy to get over you know, this situation
with his food. But he's threatening self harm at this point.
He and I think you're right, jose he is. He
has always been in control. He controls every situation, every interaction,

(46:24):
and he doesn't have that anymore. He has no control.
He only gets left out of that cell one hour
a day. That's it. Yeah, that's it. Well, coming up
at the top of the hour. Even though Anna Kepner's
death has been ruled a homicide at sea, Joseph Scott
Morgan explains why the way her why and the way
her body was found still matters. And don't forget to

(46:46):
give us a call eight to eight thirty one Crime to.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
Share your thoughts.

Speaker 5 (46:48):
Keep it right here, True Crime Tonight. This is True
Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio where we're talking true crime on
all the time. I'm Boddy Movin and I her with
producer Courtney Armstrong and we are so lucky enough to

(47:10):
be joined by forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan. And don't
forget if you miss any part of tonight's show, No Sweat,
you can always catch the podcast. We also want to
hear from you. Give us a call at eighty eight
thirty one Crime or get us in our socials at
True Crime Tonight's Show on TikTok and Instagram and True
Crime Tonight on Facebook. And sadly, I have some breaking
news that is kind of heartbreaking. Yes you know it's

(47:35):
This is a developing situation, developing story. Legendary Hollywood director
and beloved actor Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle Singer
were found dead inside their brentw home today at by
around three thirty pm. Emergency responders from the LA Fire
Department arrived at the house around three thirty local time

(47:58):
after a medical call and discovered the two bodies. Sources
are saying that both Rob and Michelle suffered wounds consistent
with a knife attack. Wow the LAPD's robbery and Homicide
Division is investigating their death, and the authorities have not
publicly announced a suspect or motive yet. Rob Reiner was

(48:18):
seventy eight years old and Michelle was sixty eight. They
have been married since nineteen eighty nine and sure three children.
Reiner also had a daughter from her previous marriage to
Penny Marshall. This is a developing story and details me
evolved as law enforcement relieves or you know, reveals more information.
And for those who don't know who Rob Reiner is,

(48:41):
He's directed beloved Hollywood classics like spinal This is spinal Tap,
stand by me, when Harry met Sally. Of course Archie
all in the family Misery he did misery. Yeah, oh
my gosh, this just happened like it's breaking news right now.

(49:01):
So again, this is a developing story and details will
evolve as law enforcement releases more information, and of course
we will be continuing to follow its horrible.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
He's really someone who just helped shape the zeitguys, I
mean all of those movies you listed, also a few
good men.

Speaker 5 (49:24):
Stephanie is going to be so upset at your favorite
movie of all times?

Speaker 4 (49:28):
Shocking. Oh I forgot about that one.

Speaker 7 (49:30):
Wow, there's definitely something we're going to keep following as
we continues. But oh, my goodness, tragic.

Speaker 4 (49:39):
This is a sad Sunday, I know, awful.

Speaker 5 (49:43):
So anyway, so we'll keep everybody updated and of course
we'll be continuing to follow it throughout the week. Well, Courtney,
what do you got with Anna Keepner? I know it's
hard to move on.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
Okay, we're gonna that was I mean, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
Yeah for the up date, and boy, it is a
real it's a real heartbreak, but we will take a
hard right turn.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
To Anna Kepner.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
She is the eighteen year old high school senior and
cheerleader who sadly was found dead November seventh of this
year on a Carnival cruise ship. So when she was found,
Anna Kepner's body was concealed under a bed in the
cabin she was staying at and partially covered by life

(50:30):
jackets and was discovered by a housekeeper.

Speaker 3 (50:34):
Now victim.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
Anna Kepner's sixteen year old stepbrother has been identified by
the FBI as a suspect in some documents. However, he
has not been named publicly. So it's it's an interesting situation.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
It's complicated.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
Now, the Miami Dade Medical Examiner's Office confirmed that Anna
Kepner died of mechanical exphyxiation, reportedly from a choke hold
or what's called a bar hold across the neck or
face area. If you can picture someone in a choke
hold from behind. So, Joseph a couple of questions, what, yeah,

(51:17):
what are your thoughts about exphyxiation, mechanical asphyxiation? Can you
sort of describe it start from start from there?

Speaker 8 (51:25):
Sure? Yeah, So when you hear the sorm mechanical assixiation,
it can be applied both to an item being used.
I've actually seen literature strangulation be referred to as a
mechanical association, and it all depends on the language that
the pathologist likes to use. Now they're saying specifically, here

(51:49):
an arm bar. That's going to be different than a
standard choke hold. People will think about like wd WWE wrestling,
for these get somebody in the crook of their arm
around the neck. That would be like a classic choke hold. Okay,

(52:09):
an arm bar what they're referring to is actually using
the leading edge of the forearm and pressing down onto
the neck. Okay, across the neck, so you will have
the like surface area where where the arm meets the
tissue of the of the of the neck will have

(52:33):
a different type of contusion or abrasion, primarily U confusion bruise.
It'll be more linear, it'll be more robust, and you'll
see more damage to the soft tissue. Actually, you can
actually see it crushing a trachea with this because there's
so much pressure. It can be applied from the rear,
but arm bars many times are applied from the front

(52:54):
where they're leaning onto the person and pressing pressing the
form down across the throat. That's what we don't really
understand at this point. It's just the interesting language that
they're using. Here. They see something here, They wouldn't use
that term.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah, it does seem very very It seems that seems
like a very angry person that would do something.

Speaker 8 (53:19):
Oh boy, yeah, right, yeah, you're not kidding, uh yeah,
and you know you would you normally think about are
there any kind of what we refer to this weapons
of opportunity within reach? I don't know what you would
have in a cruise a cruise ship bedroom, but yeah,
to be able to utilize and if the perpetrator is

(53:40):
stronger than her. If they get you know, build at
you know, the leg up on them, if you will,
then this would be certainly in a confined space. Remember
those these spaces in these damn cabins are so small. Yeah,
you guys are isn't it interesting how they advertise these
things and they use the fish eye camera. Well, yeah,

(54:01):
be gigantic, But when you walk the end, the.

Speaker 4 (54:04):
Thing is why am I going to put my suitcase?

Speaker 8 (54:06):
Yeah? Yeah, no and so tiny? So yeah, movement is
really restricted to him. Agine how much more so if
you're in a tussle with somebody and they're fighting for
their lives.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
And is there any possibility And this is all speculative,
but you know, the the FBI again has in certain
documents mentioned that victim Manna Koefner, is sixteen year old
step sibling, stepbrother rather is being investigated as allegedly and
reportedly he was the only person in the cabin it

(54:40):
appears to be the time of her death, So.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
Is sixteen year old?

Speaker 1 (54:46):
Is there a reality where you're play wrestling and it
goes too far and this can happen?

Speaker 5 (54:52):
That's a good question.

Speaker 8 (54:55):
Yeah, it was an excellent question. I assume that that, yeah,
it's with in the realm of possibility. It's certainly something
that could be plausible. But this is guys, y'all have
to understand if if someone is having their neck compressed,
which this is what this comes down to, they're going

(55:17):
to fight back. There's a primal thing that goes on
within us. We're struggling for air. This goes beyond the playtop.
It's not like you're wrestling, Okay. I want to know
what the statisfy the rest of her remains are. I
want to know what the status of her clothing is.
I won't know if there was any attempt at some
kind of other assault with her, I'll leave it at that.

(55:40):
I won't to know if there's any other kind of injuries,
any kind of contusions, like where she's been punched, hit, kicked,
stump or whatever the case might be, in order to
subdue her, to get her into a position where somebody
could do this to her. I can't imagine that just
a mark on her neck is going to be all
that there is, right Like, there's going to be possible.

Speaker 5 (56:03):
Did he did the suspect have scratches on him from
her clawing at you things like that. So we just
don't know yet, right, We just don't know your primal
instinct is going to kick in, right, and it's eaten
y world?

Speaker 10 (56:16):
How long?

Speaker 5 (56:16):
How long does it take for something like that to
happen Joseph's death from Yeah.

Speaker 8 (56:22):
The pounds pounds of pressure is not really significant. About
five pounds of pressure in order to facilitate this. Uh.
And if you've got somebody that is doing that's rather
uh in pretty good shape, uh that they and particularly
if they've got a burst of adrenaline running through down

(56:44):
there's anger rage. It could take a lot less top Okay,
it all depends on how resilient her body was, uh,
in order to resist or to fight against this this
lack of oxygen. Uh. We don't know how long this took.
It could have taken for a protracted period of time,
or it could have gone very very quickly. Again, it's

(57:06):
a big unknown, right, there's all question because now involved
in this and I would imagine information is going to
be kind of a slow drip. That's the way they operate.

Speaker 5 (57:16):
Right, Yeah, I mean we may never know. This is
true crime. Tonight on iHeartRadio, we're talking to crime all
the time. You want to weigh in and give us
a call. Eighty eight thirty one Crimeer talking about Anna
Tepner's death. She was the sixteen year old, I'm sorry,
the eighteen year old who died on that cruise ship,
the Carnival cruise ship. Give us a call. Eighty eight
thirty one Crime, Joseph. Does it tell you anything about,

(57:37):
you know, the suspect or possibly what happened that night
that her face was covered upon discovery?

Speaker 8 (57:45):
Yeah, yeah, it does, you know. And again, that's that's
something that's pretty well known that we look at in
cases where bodies are covered. It is literally called face covering.
There's something about many times what we have found when
faces are covered that there's some kind of relationship, and

(58:09):
it doesn't have to be an intimate like romantic or
sexual relationship. It's just that you knew the person. And
so the no an answer to what might be going
through some people's heads right now. Not all the dead
do not always close their eyes, and so I think
a lot of people think that happens. That's Hollywood. People

(58:34):
will lay there with their eyes open, or the dead
will and people can't bear that, they can't even bear
to look at the body with the eyes closed. And
it's because you know when we communicate with one another, right,
you know, we do that through nonverbal just with our
facial expressions. Right. Well, that memory is in the perpetrator's mind.
If they know this individual, they're going to quickly want

(58:56):
to cover because they can't stand it. They just can't
stand it. They can't and to see the body, so
that that goes to that point and to kind of
extend upon that with the way the body was found,
I gave I did a three part I think a
three part series with the Sun about two weeks ago,

(59:20):
I think or a week and a half ago about
this case, and I said in the interview that I
felt as though that the way her body was treated
it seemed almost infantile. It was like a yeah, it
was kind of like a convenience thing. What in the world.
I'm on a cruise ship. She's on a cruise ship

(59:43):
at sea, and this individual is going to take her
body and put it under a bed for a second,
right yeah. Yeah, And so the body is wrapped in
something we know that it's wrapped in something with she's
or blankets, and it's stuffed like a child that's broken,
a toy underneath the bed, and then the life jackets.

(01:00:04):
If I'm not mistaken, I think the ship was called
the Horizon. Yeah, the Horizon in the fleet is one
of only a couple of these boats that actually have
life preservers in the room. The other ones you have
to go to a point on the bove where they
say they distribute to life preservers. Here the preservers are

(01:00:26):
in the room. So this is something an individual could
grab and just well, let me just put this on
top and maybe the maid won't notice, or maybe when
we're leaving the ship they won't notice. And it just
it seemed infantile to me, you know, like a very
reactive kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
That's such an interesting observation because I had actually idly
had the thought of I've been on a couple of
cruises and yeah, it's always been that you need to
go to a central place, so I have.

Speaker 5 (01:00:55):
But do we know if their room had a balcony, because.

Speaker 4 (01:00:59):
I about it.

Speaker 5 (01:01:00):
I've been on a I've never had about That's.

Speaker 8 (01:01:02):
An excellent question. I've been dying to know that's one
of these inboard room right.

Speaker 5 (01:01:10):
Like where you just have that little tiny window right,
I've been able to afford window, and you know, I mean,
what else is he.

Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
Going to do.

Speaker 7 (01:01:21):
Inside cabin or inner cabin then him? Because that to
your point, like now it makes sense, like why wouldn't
he have tossed the body over or you know, done
something else.

Speaker 5 (01:01:29):
But I think I think he I think he might
have been maybe kind of fantasizing in some crazy reality
that he would be able to hide her at the
next excursion. So like the boat parks and everybody leaves
the boat and they go do their you know whatever,
stay there at and he would be able to like
sneak in a beverage cart or something, you know, somewhere,

(01:01:52):
but was never able to get that far, right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
Of course, should and if he indeed had anything to.

Speaker 11 (01:01:58):
Do with him exactly allegedly allegedly allegedly Wow, Well listen,
we had mentioned earlier that we were going to go
to another cruise story, but obviously body let us know
about the breaking news of Rob Reiner, and so we
will get to that story of Michael Virgil tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
I think we're all still also in shock about the
information you shared about Rob Reiner and his wife being
found allegedly stabbed to death in their Brentwood, California home.

Speaker 3 (01:02:31):
But listen, stick around.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan will be breaking down fingerprints
and why this classic evidence still solves modern crime. Keep
it here, True Crime Tonight, We're talking true crime all
the time.

Speaker 5 (01:02:55):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight, where we talk true
crime all the time. I'm Boddy, Move it and I
here producer Courtney Armstrong and forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan.
And don't forget if you miss any part of tonight's show,
No Sweat, you can always catch it on the podcast.
We also want to hear from you, so leave us
a talk back, download the iHeartRadio app and hit the
little microphone and boom, you're on the show. But right

(01:03:18):
now we're going to segue into something a little bit
different and a little fun that we call Crime Lab,
and this is going to be on Sundays where we
break down well well, Joseph Scott Morgan breaks down one
piece of forensic science at a time, and tonight we're
focusing on fingerprints and why this century's old form of
evidence is so important. Joseph, take it away, fingerprints, lay

(01:03:42):
it honest, Yes.

Speaker 8 (01:03:44):
Classes in session, y'all is classes in session. There you
go probably fingerprints for most people. How many logos do
you think you've seen out there? Oh my god, in
the true space where there's a fingerprint, so many.

Speaker 3 (01:03:59):
Like every.

Speaker 8 (01:04:04):
Somebody asks me for bodybags if I wanted a fingerprint there,
it's like, no, I don't want to thank you very
much plenty. So yeah, I mean, and it's still something
that we use today. We use it all the times.
You know that most almost every single decedent, that person
that comes through a county morgue is going to be fingerprinted.

(01:04:25):
Just so you know that up front, we have to
do fingerprints on the dead. So we take a fingerprint
card on the dead. You get hooked up, you get
sent to jail for whatever the charge is. There's a
high probability you're going to be printed. At least they're
going to take a digital print of your hand. But yeah,
fingerprints has been around for a long long time. And
I think that that we have understood the utility of

(01:04:47):
fingerprints because it goes to a principle within forensic science
that I will I'll bang the strum all the time
on crime lab. It is the idea of the principle
called individualization. What is it that sets us apart from
everybody else in the world, that makes us unique and specific?
So one of the physical characteristics is this fingerprint that

(01:05:10):
we generate, that we'd leave at a scene and just
to dispel something real quick. See if you guys know
the answer to this. If you do, then cool. But
I'll ask you what what do you have on the
tips of your fingers, on your finger pads.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
Like a substance?

Speaker 4 (01:05:30):
What do you mean fingerprints?

Speaker 5 (01:05:32):
Do you mean it's something in my fingers?

Speaker 8 (01:05:34):
Is it might right here on the tip of your
finger you have fingerprint? No, you don't. You leave fingerprints
behind you have? You have friction ridges? Well, what does
that mean? Well, friction ridges? If you if the surface
of your skin was smooth, all right, surface of your

(01:05:55):
skin was smooth here, that's how hard it is to
pick a dime up off of the floor. You ever
tried to do that? How much more difficult it would
be you didn't have friction ridges? All right? Finger out together?

Speaker 5 (01:06:07):
Oh, I'm freaked out right now. I don't know why,
but that freaks me out.

Speaker 3 (01:06:12):
I don't want to.

Speaker 8 (01:06:16):
They are very unique and they're unique.

Speaker 11 (01:06:18):
Uh.

Speaker 8 (01:06:18):
Some would say to us, I'll go ahead and throw
out another little piece of knowledge to everybody. Uh that, Uh,
you've probably heard from years and years where they will
say that no two fingerprints are the same. I mean,
you guys have heard that over the years. Did you
know that there's never been a conclusive, empirical scientific study

(01:06:40):
to prove that or disprove that what I know, I
know think about that. Yeah, so you can't necessarily say
and if you look at it, I'll give you a
great taste. Do you guys remember back in Lord, I
can't remember what year it was, but it was the
infamous Madrid train bombing where there was a train that

(01:07:02):
was bombed in Madrid and they found a latent print.
And I can tell you what that is in a minute,
but they found a latent print on a plastic bag,
tied it back to a guy, are you ready, that
lived in Seattle, Washington, who happened to be what happened
to be an attorney and a recent convert to Islam.

(01:07:23):
Turned out, after five separate after five separate experts looked
at it, they concluded that it may or may not
be his. Some said definitively that it was his. Others
and they looked at it blindly and it turned out
it wasn't It actually belonged to another fellow that was

(01:07:43):
from North Africa who did who was physically in Madrid,
that that lawyer spent time in jail for that.

Speaker 5 (01:07:56):
Well, I did a little bit of prep work for this,
and I looked it up before because I wanted to
get some questions for you, you know, And I looked it
up and even winds don't have the same fingerprints. So
so for these guys to have such.

Speaker 8 (01:08:11):
Similar same DNA but not the same DNA.

Speaker 5 (01:08:14):
Different fingerprints, I didn't know that. I kind of think, Yeah,
my point in bringing that up is that's so interesting
because this guy, this lawyer, in this train bombing, they
must have had very similar fingerprints, right, that's crazy.

Speaker 8 (01:08:30):
But you know the thing about it is, do you
know our fingerprints call necessarily change, however, but I can
tell you at this stage in my life, my fingerprints
do not look the same as they did when I
was sixteen years old, right, all right, I've seen a
lot of action, y'all, model over a period of time.
And also even if you get a scar, for instance,

(01:08:52):
over the surface, that's going to slightly alter your print.

Speaker 5 (01:08:55):
I have a scar on my middle finger.

Speaker 8 (01:08:57):
Yeah, I have this stew and the problem is it's
very dynamic. You know, you don't always grip the same
thing all the time. The same way you have overlapping
prints which are very confusing, and the way we leave
them behind, what medium we leave them behind in? First off,

(01:09:20):
we have to understand why do we leave prints behind. Well,
if you look at your fingertips, okay, or your pads
is actually what they're called. You look at your your
finger pads, they have a very specific design to them,
and we characterize okay, we've got artists loops and whirls okay,

(01:09:44):
which are general characterizations, and so they have a very
specific appearance to them. And then there are subcategories within that,
and then within the subcategories you have what are called minutia.
And there is over twenty of these things. I think
you've got ending ridges, You've got bifurcations, You've got what

(01:10:06):
else do you have? You have pores, you have dots,
there's all these.

Speaker 3 (01:10:10):
Looks you have poor like the pors in your face.

Speaker 8 (01:10:14):
A little yeah, like the little des am.

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
I going to have to do handcare now for my
poor exactly hand facials and you're giving me complex here.

Speaker 8 (01:10:23):
That's what leaves behind, what leaves behind the print, Well,
many of us, some of us have oily skin, some
of the sub dry skin. But your skin produces oil, right,
It's generated from what's called fatty lipids. Okay, So you
might not think that your fingerprints are oily or your

(01:10:45):
fingertips are oily. But when you place your fingers onto
a surface, and I recommend anybody that is interested in this,
go do it on a mirror, a smooth, non poor surface. Now,
your mama will always tell you, don't touch that mirror.
Don't care that clean yet, di, sobey mama, Go and
do that. Press your fingers onto that surface and pull away,

(01:11:07):
and the savvy lipids that are on your finger your
finger pads will leave behind a fingerprint.

Speaker 5 (01:11:13):
You don't got to tell me. I used to have
a glass of desk.

Speaker 8 (01:11:16):
Yeah, yeah, you see. Hey, Look all you got to
do is look at these internal funs. They're filthy, They're
they're filthy, you know all the time you look at them,
and that's oil that's on there, that's smear it about someone.
You never can't tell. You never can't tell what's gonna
be left behind?

Speaker 7 (01:11:35):
Does someone with like you know how some people do
have drier skin, like is it? Do they leave less
of a fingerprint like.

Speaker 8 (01:11:42):
A robust Yeah, it won't be this robust. But you
know we have you know, we we find fingerprints and
all kinds of medium out there. Blood, you know, people
will leave behind bloody prints, oil, grease, any number of
things that are out there. There are certain food stuff

(01:12:02):
when you touch them and you transfer. If you're a mom,
I many of your kids, you know they touched some
kind of nasty chocolate or with the chocolate stained, and
you want to get it out. But if you look
very closely at it, you can see your kid's fingerprint
in the chocolate. I've got an interesting exercise for everybody.
If your grandma, a mom, dad, grandpa, you want to

(01:12:25):
do this with your kids, go to your local you know,
big box store or your dollar store or whatever it is,
and buy a pack of white balloons. Okay, white balloons.
Get an ink pad, Get an ink pad, and take
your kid's little finger and you can take their index
finger and just roll it on the ink pad and
then press it down onto the surface of the white balloon. Okay,

(01:12:50):
then pull it away, take that balloon and blow it up,
and you'll have an oversized finger your kid's oversized fingerprint,
and you can see all of the little details in
the print. And it's a really cool little We do
it with kids, like kids will come to Jack State
and we'll fingerprint, you know, our forensicce kids will fingerprints

(01:13:12):
a little kids. So they have a fingerprint card and
we will do that demonstration with the balloons and tied
off and they take it home and they can actually
see their fingerprint. Cool. You can use any white white
contrast really will so nice. Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
I like that idea so much more than There's one
hallway wall that I have painted now maybe four or
five times and perpetually with I have a lot of
kids who run through my house, and this is the
absolute truth. Over the years, the prints have gotten taller
as they get you know, just I don't know, somehow

(01:13:50):
kids just want to put their paws all over everything. Yeah,
So white walls also.

Speaker 5 (01:13:57):
So when they're when they're when they're out and they're
at a crime seeing Joseph and they're dusting for fingerprints
or whatever. Now, when people wipe things off like my phone,
let's say, or the glass desk I used to have.
Am I wiping away the oils that are left behind?
Is that?

Speaker 8 (01:14:14):
What's yes? Okay, you could say smears, just like you
can with blood. Sometimes you can actually dependant nephews. You
can actually see a smear if you look really, really closely.
And the reason we use the reason we use fingerprint
dust is that there's a myriad of different types of us.

(01:14:36):
You've got magnetic dust, you've got multicolored dust, and you
use it to contrast. There's a bit of a there's
a bit of art to fingerprints. Okay, I couldn't do
the job. I don't have the patience for it. What's
really fascinating is if you go into a latent print
lap and you see these people for years and years

(01:14:56):
they sat at these great big easels that look like
cartooning usels, and they would just look with magnifying glasses
over the glasses looking for venetia and counting the points
of the dusk case to the hanging numbers that we
actually use.

Speaker 5 (01:15:15):
Wow, I would be so good at that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
Yes, I absolutely had that thought. You sure, that's I
would love it like the madness. Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 8 (01:15:26):
I compare fingerprint people to watchmakers. Have that kind of concentration,
that kind of focus, and they're really really good at
what they do, really good at what they do.

Speaker 7 (01:15:37):
Joe, can I ask you one word question, knowing that
in your direction, What if that was a shady character
out there that said, I'm going to sand off my
fingerprints so now I can go Rob.

Speaker 4 (01:15:48):
I've heard these No one's heard that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:50):
I've heard people burn chemical burns.

Speaker 4 (01:15:53):
Yeah, is that real acid?

Speaker 6 (01:15:57):
Uh?

Speaker 8 (01:15:57):
Yeah, we got people that have used acid applications, fire heat, uh, sandpaper.
H used to meeting with guys that were in the
joint that were professional thieves. Uh, there was they loved
getting their hands on sandpaper or memory boards where they
could just and they would just sit there and file
their skin on their fingerprint on their finger pads. You

(01:16:22):
can't totally re read, you cannot totally eradicate them, but
you can, uh, you can compromise them to the point
where they're not as readily uh readable, if you will.
If you leave behind a laden.

Speaker 7 (01:16:38):
Print, that's nasty, it's horrible. Yeah, I know that's not
something I yet I couldn't. I can't get a paper
cut without.

Speaker 8 (01:16:48):
People have asked me in the past, you know what
do we do with the dead? You know, because fingerprints
for a long time, we're all all that we had.
And I'll tell you guys a quick story and this
is this does have them. If we have an individual
that is deceased and they've been decomposed, we can do

(01:17:08):
one or two things with their bodies. We can actually
peel the top layer of skin off of the hands.
It's called a dermal It's called a dermal glove. Uh.
And what you do is you actually take a latex
glove and put it on your hand, and then you
put their dermal glove over your hand and you will print.

(01:17:30):
I've actually done that.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
I just want to say, if you are listening and
shuddering and cowering, I will tell you that body and
I are with you. This is fascinating, but we are
with you. Okay, dermal glove. We've got one minute till
commercial any last thoughts on the finger printuis the other thing.

Speaker 8 (01:17:51):
The other thing that we do in the morgue also
is we inject tissue builder with fingers that actually shribble. Okay,
after death, and so we will jake tissue builder, which
morticians Jews many times, and so that kind of expands
the fingerprint again so that we can roll a viable
print at the Morgue as well. I won't go into

(01:18:11):
the other things we do. I'll leave that to your math.

Speaker 4 (01:18:13):
Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:18:17):
Fascinating though fascinating, We'll stick around. We've got more to
dig into. A man boards a cruise ship and is
dead hours later, now a lawsuit, a homicide ruling, and
serious questions about what happened. Joseph Scott Morgan is sticking
around to unpack it. Keep it right here, True Crimes
might Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio, where

(01:18:46):
we're talking true crime all the time. I'm body move
in and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Joseph Scott
Morgan agreed to hang out with us a little bit longer. Courtney,
let's just get right into it. No time to.

Speaker 3 (01:18:57):
Waste, no, no time to waste. Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:18:59):
So here there's another cruise ship case that I have
rapid fire questions for Joseph about a man named Michael Virgil,
only thirty five years old, died hours after boarding a
Royal Caribbean cruise that he was taking from Los Angeles
to Ensnata, Mexico. This happened back one year ago, December
twenty twenty four. So the allegation from Michael Virgil's fiance,

(01:19:24):
and this is in a federal wrongful death lawsuit, is
that excessive force by crew members directly cause his death.
What happened was Michael Virgil boarded the ship and over
several hours, internal ship records indicate that the victim, Michael Virgil,
was served thirty three drinks and that this was taking

(01:19:47):
advantage of a deluxe beverage package that allows unlimited beverages. Ultimately,
the Los Angeles Medical Examiner has ruled the death a
homicide from mechanical exphyxia combined with underlying health conditions. The
FBI is investigating. I'm just gonna throw a few other

(01:20:08):
facts out about you. So, after these thirty three drinks,
which is hard to imagine, the victim was disoriented and
it sounds like he charged allegedly at crew members. They
then restrained him face down in a stairwell with at
least five crew members on top of victim Michael Virgil,

(01:20:31):
some possibly using their full body weight for up to
three minutes. During this restraint, the crew reportedly administered. I'm
going to pronounce this incorrectly, helloparadol and multiple cans of
pepper spray before moving Michael Virgil to the medical bait.

(01:20:52):
The victim, yeah, was pronounced dead eight thirty that night,
and the examiner again cited mechanical ex fixed combined with
obesity and enlarged heart and ethanol intoxication as contributing factors. However,
the drugs that allegedly allegedly were given by the crew

(01:21:13):
were not detected in his system. Interesting, I threw so
much information. Can you break can you break it? Break
it down? My questions why wasn't the medicine that he
was allegedly given in his system? And can the thirty
three drinks alone that because of homicide?

Speaker 3 (01:21:35):
And yeah, let's start there.

Speaker 8 (01:21:38):
Okay, let's talk about the drug that he was administered.
This is an antipsychotic medication that is administered many times
to people with schizophrenia, and I don't know if they
were trying to use it in order to try to
sedate him in some way calm him down. That's the
only reason why it was it detected. I don't know.

(01:21:58):
Maybe it was done and post mortem state where his
metabolism just didn't pick it up. It may have gone
if they administered it with directly into the muscle or
into subcu fat if it was an injection. Because they're
not very specific about this, and he was deceased already
or in a perry mortem state, it wouldn't have There

(01:22:19):
wouldn't have been a drug uptake. Now the big question
here is thirty six strengths. All right, we don't know
what these strengths were. I don't know if they are
if they really have a lot of alcohol in them. Okay,
because just because you're getting the package doesn't mean you're
getting a lot of alcohol. All right, But thirty six

(01:22:40):
either way is a rather robust number, to say the
very least, if you think about Okay, so most states
legally Johnkit's point zero eight. Right when you start to
get up into like zero point two five and up
around three, and particularly if you're not used to drinking,
you got a problem. You can die of what's called

(01:23:02):
cute alcohol toxicity. Some people will call it alcohol poisoning.
And that does happen. I've had it happen. You know,
when you really have it happen, You have it happened
like it's always in fall during fraternity rush, ye, crush
and drink copious amounts of alcohol. Right, so that does happen?
Thirty six drinks?

Speaker 1 (01:23:23):
Wow, it's thirty three, which is still monumental, but just
that I.

Speaker 8 (01:23:29):
Misspoke thirty three. Yeah, I can't even imagine what say
that would be in not upright and talking right now,
that's for sure. And then you add this, this solo
had obesity. I understand that he also may have had
what's referred to as cardio meg or cardio meglia, which

(01:23:50):
means an enlarged heart, which he's already going to have.
His heart is going to be compromised in the way
that it functions, like just pushing out oxygenated blood. So
you've always you've already got a problem there. So this
can lead to perhaps like a seizure, sometimes certainly cardiac arrest.
You couple this by somebody compressing down on him. You're

(01:24:15):
not just talking about one person here, You're talking about
several people, all right. That's that's referred to. That's actually
referred to as compression as fixed it. All right, And
this does happen. There's also a term that's out there,
and you guys can look this up.

Speaker 6 (01:24:31):
Uh.

Speaker 8 (01:24:31):
Sometimes it's got sexual connotation, but it's a term called
burking burking, and so it's it comes with compression where
the weight is being placed. And if you've ever had
older brothers and sisters and you're the little kid, and
you've ever been on the bottom of the pile, you
know these panic feelings, Yes, yeah, you know it's it's

(01:24:52):
kind of the same principle. Imagine if you're if you're overweight,
you've got in a large heart and you're hammered and
then they're shooting this drug into your system. Yeah, I
think I would say I prefur with a corner signings here.

Speaker 3 (01:25:09):
Okay, we've been on this cruise. I have been on
this cruise. It's a party cruise. It's a party cruise.

Speaker 5 (01:25:14):
It's like three days, right, like you.

Speaker 3 (01:25:17):
Go to the blowhole and it's not the Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:25:21):
It's it's literally like I think we when I was
growing up, like I mean like twenties, we called it
the pute cruise. Yeah, no, I mean that's what we
called it. And it's it's just a three day alcohol
binge best and everybody is drunk all the time.

Speaker 8 (01:25:38):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (01:25:39):
So the thirty three Drake, listen to me, that's shocking,
but also like, yeah, that's okay, I've bet that cruise, yeah, cruise.

Speaker 3 (01:25:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:25:50):
I always look at these things and I always think
what about free will? And we all have no You're
absolutely right, we choose to exercise it.

Speaker 5 (01:25:59):
Right, Jo, You are the best. Thank you so much
for joining us. Anyone interested in more true crime forensic
deep dives, you can find Joseph's amazing hit podcast. It's
called body Bags b O D Y not how I
spell it, body Bags. That's Joseph Scott Moore. And thank
you so much, Joseph. We really appreciate it.

Speaker 8 (01:26:19):
I appreciate you.

Speaker 3 (01:26:20):
Thank you, Joe.

Speaker 4 (01:26:22):
Always love when you're here.

Speaker 5 (01:26:23):
Have a good one, Have a good night, Joseph. For
those who just joining us, you're listening to your true
crime tonight on iHeartRadio. If you miss any part of
the show, no s what you can catch it on
the podcast, or you can just leave us a talk
back in boom you'll be on the show. Download the
iHeartRadio app and hit the little microphone and we'll hear
you on the show. And I understand we have a
talkback right now.

Speaker 12 (01:26:44):
Hey, Chicos, I was calling I'm behind. I'm listening to
the Slenderman episode if you're interested. The interrogation video of
the two twelve year old girls is on YouTube in
full video, and it's kind of hard to watch, especially
as a mother, but I found it interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:27:02):
Thanks love you guys.

Speaker 5 (01:27:05):
I have seen it. I'm going to have to rewatch it.
I have, but it's been like, I want to say,
seven years maybe since I've seen it. It's been a
really long time, but it is. It is hard to watch.
I mean, these are twelve year old girls, I think
they're twelve at the time, be being interrogated by police officers,
you know, and they've got these little sweet voices, right,

(01:27:26):
and they've done this terrible things. It's hard to it's
hard to watch. I don't think where the parents with
them in the interrogation.

Speaker 3 (01:27:36):
Do you remember?

Speaker 5 (01:27:38):
I think I think mom was. Yeah, I think mom
was in one of them. I don't I don't remember. Now,
it's been a long long time, but I think so.
I do believe that that Morgan's mom wasn't in the room.
I don't remember about the other one.

Speaker 7 (01:27:53):
Yeah, Just for those who aren't familiar, to take you
back in twenty fourteen, twelve year old Morgan Guyser and
Anissa Weyer here in my pronouncement. Yeah, they lord their
classmate Peyton Lutner, who was twelve years old, into the
woods and stabbed her repeatedly in an attempt to appease
the fictional internet character slender Man.

Speaker 4 (01:28:15):
So that's what we're talking about.

Speaker 5 (01:28:17):
I one of my favorite things to watch are those interrogations,
not of this one in particular, but interrogations in general.
I love watching them, love it, and I love watching
the people that do like this person was innocent or
this person was guilty, and then the comparisons and the
body language and now that's it, and how the approach

(01:28:39):
of the cops. It's all very interesting to me. I
love those YouTube I'll.

Speaker 4 (01:28:43):
See that I started.

Speaker 7 (01:28:45):
I didn't always find them as interesting, but the one
that peaks my peaked my interest the most when we
watched was it The Perfect Neighbor when they were interrogating her.
And lately now I've started to I find these interesting
to see when they're talking to the person, especially you know,
when you know they're lying about something, So I can
see why that would make you, you know, you find

(01:29:05):
it interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:29:06):
The Perfect neighbor. I I'm not going to rant.

Speaker 3 (01:29:10):
I will just state.

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
I mean, she just was such a deplorable human being
and my estimation, and I know it's the greater good
to approach people when you're an officer, approach them with
grace and all of the above. But I lost patients
a lot quicker than the officers did in this indication
where the ultimately convicted woman was saying, no, I'm just

(01:29:36):
I do not feel like going into oh yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:29:38):
They were like, stand up, we need to take you
down to the jail.

Speaker 4 (01:29:41):
She was like, no, no, no, no, I want to go.

Speaker 8 (01:29:43):
I don't think I'm going.

Speaker 1 (01:29:46):
Like screaming at the screen watching it by myself.

Speaker 5 (01:29:50):
I remember when I watched it and we talked about
it on the show, and I was really upset. Yeah,
I was really upset, But I remember I was angry
at the police officers. But I think that was just
like misplaced anger, you know what I mean, Like, yeah, yeah,
I agree, because they should be patient with everybody, right,
they should be. Yeah, I just for being like on

(01:30:11):
the ground.

Speaker 7 (01:30:13):
I appreciated them in that particular instance because they were
really great community they Oh my.

Speaker 5 (01:30:19):
God, they were so embedded in that community. Right, this
happened in Florida, and those cops in that community and
those kids were so precious. I know.

Speaker 4 (01:30:28):
Yeah, you just You've got my wheels turning about. What's it?
Can you think of another interrogation?

Speaker 3 (01:30:32):
You've seen that you've seen a million, But I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:30:34):
Do we do interrogation or does it we want to
do another talk back?

Speaker 3 (01:30:38):
Body's talk back?

Speaker 4 (01:30:41):
Okay, I like to talk Let's do it.

Speaker 13 (01:30:44):
Hi, everyone, it's camera from New Jersey. I just wanted
to lighten things up a little bit and tell you
that I tried the Mississippi pot road. I got thumbs
up from everybody around the table and it is definitely
going into light rotation.

Speaker 3 (01:30:58):
Thank you and love your show.

Speaker 5 (01:31:00):
And this is my recipe.

Speaker 3 (01:31:04):
This is.

Speaker 5 (01:31:07):
Okay, listen, it's so I am not a good cook. Okay,
I'm not. I want to be, but I'm not. But
when I make this, people think I went to like
Julia like they think I'm like, oh, it is so good. Literally,
you get a crock pot, okay, you put a slab
of like roast in there, like whatever pot roast, and
then you put stick of butter.

Speaker 4 (01:31:29):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (01:31:29):
I know this sounds crazy. A stick of butter, packet
of gravy okay, aud you or you know whatever gravy,
A packet of ranch ran yep, dry and dry ranch packet. Yeah, yeah,
good little packet. And then you put some pepperccinis. I
put like six or seven and then you take like

(01:31:51):
a couple of tablespoons of the pepperccini juice. You throw
it in there and then you just bake it it is,
or not bake it, but you crop bott it hours
or so, okay you. I serve it with rice.

Speaker 3 (01:32:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:32:05):
But I also brought it to a pot look one time,
and I brought I brought those like little Hawaiian king rolls,
oh and I mean little pot roast sandwiches, and they
were a hit. It's so it sounds so good.

Speaker 3 (01:32:18):
What I don't know if you, first of all you
a mushroom person.

Speaker 5 (01:32:21):
Or yes, I love mushrooms.

Speaker 1 (01:32:23):
I feel like button mushrooms, the little white ones would
go really nice in what you just described.

Speaker 5 (01:32:29):
I never even thought of that that would be delicious.

Speaker 1 (01:32:31):
Ray and with all the graby and stuff, I think
that was so good.

Speaker 6 (01:32:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:32:36):
I make it with rice us you absolutely and it
smells so good. And some people serve it with mashed potatoes.
But I don't like my I don't like my food touching.
I know it's really crazy, but I don't like my
food touching unless it's rice. Rice can touch anything, but potatoes.
You cannot know. I don't want nothing touch on my
potatoes except for the gravy. That's it.

Speaker 3 (01:32:57):
Okay, nothing else.

Speaker 5 (01:32:58):
No corn, I don't want any core. My brother growing
up used to torture me. Eric, if you're listening, I'm
talking to you, and he would take a scoop of
corn and like I'm gagging thinking about it, grab his
mashed potatoes all in. Oh, it's like my nightmare.

Speaker 3 (01:33:15):
Okay, well listen, Eric, I'm on your side.

Speaker 1 (01:33:18):
We have not met, but body, that image of you
with your fingernails lit up with eighties remover is still
haunting my son because I retold him this story, and
he's like, at least she didn't do crazy things like body.

Speaker 3 (01:33:37):
So Eric, in your corn, you know, I think he's
all right.

Speaker 5 (01:33:42):
She's good now, But man, I tortured that kid growing up.
Oh my goodness, gosh, but he tortured me with the food.
I will say he tortured me with the food. Sounds
touching it's just my friend bought me those little mermaid plates,
like the Little Mermaid the dividers that you get to
like four year olds as a joke, but jokes on her.
I still use those to this day.

Speaker 1 (01:34:02):
Absolutely listen, go with it. Let's your proclivities fly. Listen.
It's been a big eventful night. We were glad to
share it with you. And tomorrow, of course, we will
continue with information on Hollywood director Rob Reiner and his wife,
who were found dead in an apparent homicide at their

(01:34:24):
Los Angeles home.

Speaker 3 (01:34:26):
Just you know today that and Epstein and more.

Speaker 1 (01:34:29):
Thank you, love you, Bye bye.

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