Prince Andrew’s ‘Guessing Game,’ Jake Haro’s Shocking Plea, and Healing After the Fire

Our 100th Episode! Explosive new claims from Virginia Giuffre’s memoir allege Prince Andrew played a disturbing “guessing game” about her age. Jake Haro’s shocking plea after falsely reporting a kidnapping, new charges in the Palisades Fire arson case, Diddy’s strict post-prison rules, and therapist Belle Shook’s remarkable horse-based trauma healing method. Tune in for all the details. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the host, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Thursday, October sixteenth, and look,
we have a whole new crew tonight. Body is out sick. Unfortunately,
she has a bit of a cold, not COVID, but
a hell of a cold. So she's not with us.
But Eva Kaplan, our associate producer, is jumping in. I'm

(00:41):
Stephanie Leidecker and I'm here half always with Courtney Armstrong,
but always.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
In my heart.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
And of course Taha, Adam and Sam are jumping in
on the back end crew. So listen, we have a
lot of headlines to get to guess what they're stacked.
So there's been more exerpt from this Virginia Guphrase memoir.
Remember she took her own life back in April of
twenty twenty five. Yeah, twenty twenty five. It's amazing, it's

(01:10):
incredible to believe the timeline here. We talked about this
a bit last night, but there seems to be some
real connection to Prince Andrew and some of the correspondents
is interesting at the bare minimum, So more on that
to come. Also, we talked about this last night as
if we were sensing it. Baby Emmanuel's dad has pled

(01:31):
guilty to his murder after he and his wife claimed
that he was kidnapped.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
What a bummer.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
And also the man charged with the Palisades fire allegedly
he started it an uber driver. Forty five years is
what he's looking at. So suddenly that sentence went from
five years to forty five years.

Speaker 3 (01:52):
So we'll have more details on that. And also Diddy.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
We're hearing a lot about Diddy's sentencing. Are we happy
with it? Are we unhappy with it? But there are
new claims that once he is released, he will be
on very close supervision and under a lot of restrictions,
So we'll talk about that as well. And also we'll
be joined by Belle Shuck. She's a licensed therapist and

(02:15):
creator of the Equan Guidance Method, which basically uses horses
to help heal trauma and make people's lives better and
more calm. Personally, I am ready to jump on a
horse even please scare me a little bit so I'm
hoping we can work through this because after all these
stories and these headlines tonight, I feel like we will

(02:36):
all need some We'll all need a little therapy Thursday.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
So here we are. So Gileen Maxwell, we know where
she is.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
She's currently behind bars in a low security prison, never
listening to us. However, she's still trying to get out.
And now we're seeing photographs again and again and again
of Virginia Dufray, who is.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
The deceased Epstein.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
She took her own life back in April, like we
just discussed, and there's this infamous photo of her Prince
Andrew and then Gelaan Maxwell right behind them, and that's
kind of the photo that we've all seen on repeat
and again. Does a photo make it scandalous or is
it just a photo? Who knows of somebody who may

(03:21):
be said, hey, take a photo of me with Prince Andrew.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
I think that's a little bit of the debate.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
However, there's new information in the Prince Andrew correspondence that
makes it a little questionable. Curious Courtney Armstrong and Lieu
of Badi. Where shall we begin?

Speaker 4 (03:37):
Well, I think we should begin with Virginia Gouffrey and
what's coming out? But even before that happy one hundredth show, everybody.

Speaker 5 (03:48):
That's right, Yes, so this is officially our one episode.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
Our one hundredth episode.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, that's two hundred hours of live content that you
guys have listened to and we are so grateful.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
Yes, seriously, Champagne machine or like a dissco, like disco
ball someday.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Come on, you are representing our younger versions of ourselves.
Come on, why are we not dancing on a dance
floor right now?

Speaker 6 (04:16):
You're the glow sticks? Or where are they?

Speaker 7 (04:20):
These past couple of months, my brain has transformed into
a true crime encyclopedia. Take my new party, teck. I
go to a room and I'm like, asking me about
any case, and I can like.

Speaker 8 (04:32):
A game.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
Let's do that game.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
Hey, listen, if you want to join the conversation eight
eight eight three one crime, ask Eva any question about
true crime. Let's know the spot, let's know if she
in fact is the human encyclopedia.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
By the way, it's so true two hundred hours. By
the way, that's major.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
So hi Bin, Yeah, I get to work with the
greatest humans. It's a real lucky thing to get to
be in this like little bubble together.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Night after night.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
I feel like we get to be a part of
each other's lives in a ways that can't quite be described.
And by the way the community and the listeners and
the collins and the talkbacks and the dms like it
makes it feel like just a family style meal And
I'm so grateful.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
Best way to spend every night, I have to say.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
So look forward to it like I count the minutes
till so yay.

Speaker 4 (05:27):
And here we are, well, here we also are with
Virginia Guffray's upcoming memoir. It's posthumous, as Stephanie has mentioned,
and it's called Nobody's Girl.

Speaker 3 (05:37):
It's coming out this.

Speaker 4 (05:39):
Month, and new claims of her alleged sexual abuse by
Prince Andrew are coming out, and they're coming out in
some real vivid detail. She claims that he viewed sex
with her as his quote birthright, and she speaks about
three separate encounters beginning when she was seventeen, and I'll

(06:00):
be honest with you, each more a lurid than the last,
and just each more sad. It's just the depravity. If
everything alleged just true, the depravity.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Is real now It is clear that you know Andrew
was guilty of this, right, So there has been a
lot of back and forth civilly et cetera. And the
thing that we all see is this photo. And I
do think that photo says so much. But does it
Maybe I'm alone in this, Like I would love what
is everybody's opinion on this? It just because you're in

(06:34):
a photo with somebody, does that mean that it is
a for sure thing that all the other allegations are accurate.
I think the thing that I get stuck on is
how and why anyone who was in relations with Epstein
or had a working relationship with him. Obviously he was
a really high falutint financier. He had very high profile friends,

(06:59):
so you know, maybe they're like Tier one friends or
Tier ten friends rather.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Where you're just sort of loose associates.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
But once you find out that he is a convicted
sex offender, what happens after that? Like we know that
Prince Andrew was seen in Central Park photographed with him,
We know that Prince Andrew was seen and photographed leaving
his apartment years later. Now, he would say, and this
is really worth noting. Prince Andrew is very clear that

(07:27):
he was only seen with Epstein in Central Park and
being photographed because they were having a conversation that kind
of broke up their friendship. That where Andrew was saying, hey, listen, Epstein,
we can't be friends anymore. You have been.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
Convicted of something sexual.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
You are a sexual offender, and it would be a
bad look for us to hang together the way we
once did. So that's what he alleges on camera. This
is his words and paraphrasing them obviously, but the gist
is the walk through the park photo that we've all seen,
or him going into Epstein's apartment, that that was all

(08:06):
because he didn't feel like a relationship should end over
the phone, it should be in person, and that's why
years later they stayed connected.

Speaker 4 (08:15):
Yeah, I mean, I just called big Bs on that.
Even what we talked about last week or a couple
of weeks ago with Duchess former Duchess Sarah Ferguson, Prince
Andrew's ex wife. It was in twenty eleven, so years
later that at that time Prince Andrew was arranging for
Epstein to give Sarah Ferguson that eighteen thousand dollars to

(08:38):
help pay off her debts, and then also Sarah Ferguson
had those emails, the totally contradectory one saying he was
a steadfast, generous and supreme friend, and then also saying
that being involved with him was a gigantic era of judgment,
both of them really in the same breath almost.

Speaker 7 (09:00):
Twenty eleven. In twenty eleven, Andrew sent Epstein an email
after the photo of him in Virginia was published. He
sent Epstein an email allegedly saying, I'm just as concerned
for you, don't worry about me. It was seeing we
are in this together and have to rise above it.
Otherwise keeping close touch and will play some more sous.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
This is a quote some more soon who's playing as
adult men? Nobody plays, and nobody plays. And if I'm
remembering correctly, Eva, you're so right. What you're saying is
so accurate that he was basically saying, Prince Andrew to Epstein,
don't worry about me.

Speaker 3 (09:38):
I'm more worried about you.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
But I feel like there were a bunch of exclamation
points after that.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
It was like, I'm less worried about you than I
am for me.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point for what.
I have a thing for exclamation points generally speaking in
any writing. FYI, I just think it's like it says
a lot right. Why are you yelling at me? Four times?
Andrew had four exclamation points after that statement. Why are

(10:07):
they playing together anytime soon?

Speaker 3 (10:10):
Why?

Speaker 4 (10:10):
Sounds like those guys are real supreme pals, just palin
around all day long. Listen, this is true crime tonight,
and we are thrilled to be palain around with you.
We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I am here with
Stephanie Leidecker, and producer Tah is here. Boddie Movin is
out with just a cold. She is resting, and we

(10:32):
are also here with producer Ava and of course Sam
and Adam keeping things under control in the control room.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
We'd love to hear from you eighty today three one Crime.

Speaker 4 (10:40):
We're talking about Virginia Dufray and specifically her connections. I
guess we'll call them alleged. They are alleged connections with
Prince Andrew. Here's something back to your earlier question, Stephanie
regarding the photo. Here's Virginia's own words. And keep in
mind she was a teenager. This is the perspective of
hers teenager.

Speaker 6 (11:01):
Correct.

Speaker 4 (11:02):
My mom would never forgive me if I met someone
as famous as Prince Andrew and didn't pose for a picture.
I ran to get a Kodak fun saver from my room,
then returned and handed it to Epstein. I remember the
Prince putting his armor on my waist as Maxwell Grinn
beside me.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
Epstein snapped the photo.

Speaker 7 (11:20):
Oh, it just makes me so sad because it's like
she's just an innocent teenager child, still kind of caught
in the glamour of this whole world. To me, this
quote just show It's just heartbreaking because it just shows
how young and impressionable she really was at the time.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
By the way, if I was in Buckingham Palace tomorrow,
and I've lived one hundred and fifty lives, by the way,
even still, I'd be like, what are you taking me
into the Buckingham Palace?

Speaker 3 (11:48):
I could take a photo here?

Speaker 2 (11:49):
What with a prince with I mean, I literally think
about Princess soon to be Queen Kate.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
All the time. I'm really obsessed with.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
Meghan Markle, and I want Carrie and Will to be
reunited at last, So I'm just I am the person
that would go to Buckingham Palace, invited in and be like,
oh my god, can I get a photograph? It would
be my mother will kill me if I don't come
home with a picture with you.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
So you can see that now.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
The other side to that, Devil's advocate, What if it's
just that somebody who's just a crazed fan who happens
to be there.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
Maybe Prince Andrew has no.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Idea who she is and just like yeah, says hi
and poses for a photo like many not only royals,
but celebrities do. If the person in the photo is
a weirdo, is that your problem?

Speaker 4 (12:42):
Were that to be the case, Stephanie, why would he
be saying we're in this together now?

Speaker 9 (12:48):
Well?

Speaker 5 (12:48):
So didn't there's also something where he I think both
Andrew and Maxwell claimed the photo.

Speaker 6 (12:53):
Was doctored so correct.

Speaker 5 (12:55):
Why would they claim that if it's just an innocent
photo of someone just taking a picture person.

Speaker 6 (13:00):
So I don't know that. It seems like there's a few.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
What happens in the dar comes out in the light.
I just know this to be true.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
I really believe that whatever files we are meant to receive,
we will and I think it's going to be soon.
And by the way, it's like happening real time. Even
the reason why we're talking about this is not to
belabor it a I'm like confused and really warped up
in my own head. I've gotten the greatest dms, by
the way, from all sides of this, so keep them

(13:31):
come in.

Speaker 3 (13:32):
Some of them.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Really I get stumped. In fact, I want to read some.
But here's the thing. Right now in Arizona real time,
a lawsuit against Speaker of the House Mike Johnson is
happening because they would like this Republican congresswoman to be
finally sworn in so that she could be the two

(13:53):
hundred and eighteenth signature a Democrat. Well, she's a Democrat,
but regardless, she's a woman who's been elected. She should
be sworn in, regardless of her status, regardless of her gender,
to be sworn in. But she has outwardly said she
will in fact be the last signature needed to have

(14:14):
the files released.

Speaker 3 (14:16):
What is the hold up?

Speaker 2 (14:17):
And then I start reading things about the former Prime
Minister of Israel, like what is happening here that we're
just not getting the full scoop on and honestly, I
have no idea, but it does kind of scare me
at the core a little bit. So if anybody has
any big insight any side where it is is we
have no agenda.

Speaker 3 (14:36):
We just want to survive it.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Can you please tell me how to stop sex trafficking globally?
And if you have any advice or insight on any
side of this story, we want to hear it eighted
eight to three one crime or hit us up in
our socials. And you know we love a talkback, so
download the iHeartRadio app for free, top right hand corner,
little small microphone icon.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
Just push it. Leave a Messa, you're on the show
and you can talk to Ava directly.

Speaker 4 (15:03):
That's right, and keeping here we have a lot more
after the commercial break.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
We have surprising updates about.

Speaker 4 (15:08):
Diddy as well as the accused Palisades artsmist, that and more.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
my Courtney Armstrong. I listen Partner in Crime and then
some or on crime or unpacking crime. Body is outsick tonight.
She's just not feeling well, doesn't have COVID, doesn't have pneumonia,
nothing serious, but just a good old cold. So we

(15:46):
have given her the night off. But we have Taha
jumping in and Ava jumping in, and of course Sim
and Adam are here, so we want to hear from
you though. Eight at eight three one crime. A little
bit about Epstein. I mean, listen, it's like under the
surface and a side surface, but real time there seems
to be litigation against Speaker of the House Mike Johnson,

(16:09):
and that's interesting. I don't know what to make of it,
so if you have an opinion, please share it. And also,
just last night we were talking about the most piteous
of all cases, Baby Emmanuel.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
We've all been really where is baby Emmanuel's justice? What
is happening?

Speaker 2 (16:27):
You know, Mom and Dad they had a very differing story.
We even had talked back last night inquiring what's the
situation there? And lo and behold today Dad has confessed
that he was a part of a murder plan. And
even though he said his beloved baby Emmanuel was kidnapped,

(16:51):
in fact was he was killed and it's guilty.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
So what do we make of that? Courtneys?

Speaker 6 (16:59):
It's crazy?

Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, well I think Taha you were going to fill
us in, right.

Speaker 5 (17:04):
Yeah, I mean well, I was saying to you guys earlier,
it's like either we are like psychic or we have
some sort of power to manifest things to happen, because
literally that talkback was saying, what's going on just today?
This is what happened. So this is all after we
got to talk back. But Jake Harrow pled guilty to
murdering his son Emmanuel Horror after falsely reporting the child

(17:28):
had been kidnapped. So if you remember, this was back
in August and Jake and Rebecca harrw they told authorities
that their son Emmanuel had been abducted from a parking lot.
It prompted a large scale search with an investigation. But
from the start there were like so many inconsistencies in
their stories. Like the police everyone was like, something is

(17:49):
not right, Like it just didn't feel something was felt
that right.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
We thought it was like it's every parent's worst nightmare,
and somewhere we were all sort of like, hmm, that's
totally land I don't know why, though. It wasn't as
though what they said that they were saying wasn't correct
or it.

Speaker 4 (18:09):
Wasn't was there actually were. There were some pretty immediate inconsistencies.
And this is going back a little while ago, but
I believe Mom said that she was one place, it
was quickly proven that she was not there, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
And it snowballs.

Speaker 4 (18:25):
So the inconsistencies came out pretty hot and heavy from
the beginning.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
And I don't remember there was well, go ahead, sorry,
I was just going to say they turned on each other, well.

Speaker 5 (18:35):
That they turned in each other, but I don't if
you remember back, there was something like even Ave and
I both like, this is so unusual. The woman was
looking for her son but sort of like parted some
bushes and it was just this really just her movement
and it felt very performative.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
Wait was it what the bushes? I didn't get that.

Speaker 5 (18:53):
So she was they were showing news footage of the mother,
Rebecca Horror, looking for her son, and so she's really
like on one of the news channels, like going through
some bushes and partying like nope, not in there, like
like as just she was like spooking through them and
looking around or like climbing over a fence.

Speaker 6 (19:12):
No, nothing, that is something. I just felt like.

Speaker 3 (19:14):
This is also felt performative.

Speaker 6 (19:17):
Completely it felt like a whole act.

Speaker 4 (19:19):
So and for anyone who's ever lost their child in
a department store or even a grocery store, for one
literal minute.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
You are grave.

Speaker 4 (19:31):
I can imagine you're not calmly part in the bush. So, yeah,
everything was off about them from the big Yeah.

Speaker 5 (19:38):
Well, just to wrap things up with that one. So
he pled guilty, and he's guilty of second degree murder,
filing a false report, and assaulting a child. His sentence
his schedule for November third, So we're going to follow
that one and keep everyone up to speed with what's
going on with that. And this comes out two months
after he was last seen alive on August fifth, And

(19:58):
this is the part that's so traject to me. They're
still searching for his remains, which I can't wrap my
head around that, Like, if he's hold everyone, he's done it,
why wouldn't you say where the body is?

Speaker 6 (20:10):
I don't let your.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Child have some peace and rest and be, you know,
in heaven.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
It is crazy talk. By the way, let's.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Just like, qu we unpack this for two more seconds.
I know you probably had to go to a mid segment.
By the way, you're listening to true crime Tonight on iHeartRadio,
We're so glad you're here. I'm Steph with Courtney, Hey,
Taha Eva, Sam and Adam. You had a full house tonight.
Body is sick, so we're wishing her well and we're
talking about baby Manuel. And Dad has proven to be

(20:42):
dishonest and he's now pled guilty to charges of not
only lying to authorities, but you know, killing his son.

Speaker 3 (20:53):
What does that leave for mom?

Speaker 2 (20:55):
So essentially Mom and Dad were arrested at the same time.
There had been big calls to all of our attention
for help. We needed to help find baby am Manuel.
By the way, even as recent as last night, we
were all worrying where is he? We still don't know
because Dad is being tight lipped about it, but they do.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
What do we make of this?

Speaker 2 (21:18):
You know, at what point you have wasted so many
resources for law enforcement?

Speaker 3 (21:24):
You know how exhausting that is. You're looking for baby
a manual.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
We've all been thinking about it collectively, eag in law enforcement.
They are looking for a child that is taxing, that
is a twenty four hour day on the job. But
this is not a clock in scenario. And now we
find out that they've been lied to this entire time,
and where's.

Speaker 7 (21:47):
Mind in this scenario is well, it's just so frustrating
because Jake had a prior conviction from twenty eighteen. How
are willfully neglecting and abusing their other daughter who now
suffer permanent disabilities from that incident and you can't even
get out of the bed?

Speaker 3 (22:04):
Am I remembering?

Speaker 9 (22:05):
Am I right?

Speaker 3 (22:06):
Am I remembering this correctly?

Speaker 2 (22:08):
She is from the injuries sustained by dad who went
on to fall in love again and have another child.
And suddenly Baby am Manuel is gone.

Speaker 6 (22:23):
Which is horrible.

Speaker 5 (22:23):
And if anyone wants to that second follow up with that,
that child referring to the two year old has since
been removed from their custody, so that child's.

Speaker 2 (22:34):
Exaggerating it anyway, This is as I as I remember it.
Can we just confirm whatever injuries? But I don't mean
to exaggerate, But I remember thinking this is wild. Yeah,
this guy's not getting the message.

Speaker 5 (22:50):
No, not clearly he's not. But I mean hopefully the
message will be received at this point in time and
he'll pay for what he's done. But yeah, it's just horrific.
Anything with children just really it's hard to even talk
about and it's so disturbing. But in this case where
now this is a second child that he has, just

(23:12):
one is permanently damaged, and now one has lost their life.
This man is just I don't know. Just put him
in jail, throw the book away.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
Put him in jail, go away to keep.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
By the way, if this guy gets immunity, do we
have any inclination that this guy turning on mom?

Speaker 3 (23:27):
Because let's be honest. Let's be honest.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
We've made a lot of We've made a lot of
content on the topic. Queeney, You and I have done
fifty two episodes of Crazy in Love where it starts
in love and it ends tragically. So Mom and dad
they're a pretty united front, right, regardless of whether or
not their story.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
Made any sense. They had the same story.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
And now Dad has thrown Mom under the bus, so
she's getting caught, likely of, you know, off guard. Does
he get immunity or in any way a preferational treatment
for coming clean and disclosing what he is saying happened?

Speaker 6 (24:09):
Yeah, after Yeah, he's first child.

Speaker 4 (24:13):
Yeah, I don't believe that has been those details have
been released. We do know that Jake Harrow is sent
his sentencing is scheduled for November third, and that the mother,
Rebecca Harrow's legal fate is still unclear. She is in
custody and her bail said it one million dollars. And

(24:33):
I just really hope for this father, Jake Harrow, that
saying may you reap, but your so just really comes
to bear for him every single day for the rest
of his life. So that is my wish for him
moving on.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
H Yeah, it's very sad.

Speaker 6 (24:52):
Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
I get into a bar fight right now, honestly so
awful that it's sickening.

Speaker 6 (24:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah, how do we move on?

Speaker 2 (25:01):
When do we get like we need some happy news?
Is everything happy?

Speaker 4 (25:05):
I'm not bringing you happy news, but I want everyone
in the control room to start thinking of some talkbacks
real quick. But this is news and it's important. Jonathan rendernicked.
He is now facing up to forty five years and
that would be in federal prison. And he is the
man who has been indicted by a grand jury on

(25:27):
with two additional felony charges excuse me, connected to the
deadly twenty twenty five Palisades fire, which, as we've been
talking about, killed twelve people, earned more than twenty thousand
acres and destroyed thousands and thousands of homes and has.

Speaker 3 (25:44):
Displaced multitudes of people.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
So the new update is the two charges are arson
affecting property that were used in interstate commerce as well
as Timber set afire.

Speaker 3 (25:58):
And this is important.

Speaker 7 (26:00):
Charge, Timber set a fire. This is the first time hearing.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
Of that news to me, the same same, yeah here,
here is that legal?

Speaker 9 (26:08):
Even?

Speaker 3 (26:09):
What is that? Uh?

Speaker 4 (26:11):
Well, it's a new charge against him, So I would say, no,
you do not, Stephanie. If you were wondering if in
any capacity you should be setting Timber a fire, answer snow,
answer is it would be illegal.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
It would be illegal.

Speaker 4 (26:27):
But these new charges do raise the maximum possible sentence
from twenty years now to forty five years in federal prison.

Speaker 6 (26:36):
Still not enough in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
How murder though, Like it's manslaughter that was all people's
lives are lost. And I'm going to go on a
limb here and just believe in my heart that this person,
if in fact, this very ordinary Uber driver who because
the Uber driver that I had last night was anything
but this guy was an ordinary guy down on his luck,

(27:02):
and if in fact he set a fire that killed
twelve people, and you know, trashed and ruined so many
people's lives. Taking this stuff aside just in the pure
twelve people's lives. Yeah, how was even forty five years?

Speaker 6 (27:18):
And not right? It seems like wouldn't that be removing any.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Of and again keeping this not personal like any of
the lives, the homes, the memories, the start over, the
financial gut that that is, that.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Is just stuff, right, that is the end.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Sure, But like twelve people's lives were lost, what is
that equal in terms of forty five years?

Speaker 3 (27:42):
It doesn't even make any sense. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (27:46):
That's something Maybe we even have our expert, our Arson
expert at Nordskog back to discuss because I also don't
understand how.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
I have to believe in my heart that that was
not the intention that uber driver was going to light
a fire to some timber.

Speaker 7 (28:06):
And didn't have guys that Arson is one of like
the few crimes where intent doesn't matter, and he did say,
whatever the impact is, that's what you're charge for. So
the fact that these new federal charges were added are
maybe making me think they're doing this in chunks, even
where it's like they're starting with these charges and maybe
they're continually adding some because if that's true about Arson,

(28:30):
it would make sense that he would be on the
under the gun for manslaughter.

Speaker 4 (28:33):
Well you're exactly right, Ava, And I was kicking myself
after we had finished that show for not asking about
the attempted murder or the murder charges that we had
all talked about when he said intent doesn't matter, which
was so interesting. Light the match, whatever happens, you are
culpable for, so maybe there will.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
Be more charges, right, Like, that's just like a really
weird line that we know we can go around on
a loop on esoterically, but like the light that starts
the match that kills twelve people. And again, I know
I'm in this story a little too much and a
little too close to it, so like take this stuff
out of it, Like all the seven thousand homes and

(29:14):
lives that are impacted in ways that I honestly can't
stress are so intense.

Speaker 3 (29:21):
But like twelve people.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
Died, died, Yeah, that is wild beyond measure, like the
words I want to say right now or like tip
of my tongue, and I'm afraid I'll get kicked out
for it, so I'm bracing it.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
But all that to be said.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
If he didn't mean to and it happened, that's manslaughter, right,
isn't that what happens is an accident and.

Speaker 3 (29:45):
Volunt stop sign.

Speaker 4 (29:48):
I don't know that is what happens often happens with
with car accidents or what you're describing, correct, But in
this case, there have been no intentionally.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
If accurate started the fire, maybe in a smaller location
with less impacts, maybe not considering hey, it smolders below
the surface for six days, seven days and then becomes
the Palisades fire, which crushed a whole community literally and

(30:19):
kill to old people most significantly. So that's a new one.
That's a new one, and a real one. I just
also worry that it also it sort of takes the
heat off of what was a system around it, maybe
from a government perspective that was also.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
Playing a hand.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
And once we call it a crime or a criminal act,
does that change things?

Speaker 3 (30:44):
I don't know the answer.

Speaker 4 (30:46):
Well, as our experts said, hopefully it will be investigated
as it should, just largely and independently.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
And listen, we've been talking a lot about Epstein. We've
been talking also maybe a manual. Some of this stuff
is tough, to hear. So if you have something positive
that you want to jump in and share with us,
we want to hear it. Eight eight eight three one
crime or leave us a talk back or hit us
up in our socials. But first let's go to our caller. Hi,

(31:14):
welcome to the show, Joe.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
How are you, hey, Joe?

Speaker 6 (31:20):
Can you hear us?

Speaker 10 (31:21):
Hey?

Speaker 8 (31:22):
Joe? Yeah?

Speaker 9 (31:23):
Yeah, can you hear me?

Speaker 8 (31:24):
Hi?

Speaker 6 (31:24):
Yes? How you doing?

Speaker 3 (31:26):
We're so happy you're here? Thanks for calling.

Speaker 9 (31:29):
I'm okay. What I want to talk about quickly if
I can. I'm part of the whole boy Scout sex
abuse case that's going on, how soup. I was assaulted
by my scout master when I was thirteen oh and

(31:50):
I had a conversation with a defense at one point
and I was saying, you know, is this evil? Are
these people evil? And he were saying that no, there's
no such thing as evil, and just people make the
wrong choices. I don't get that. What I think, and

(32:12):
I think it's the case would be all excellent thing too,
the sexual desire that is run am up. It's like
this hyper testosterone. How could a forty year old guy
assault a thirteen year old kid with any sense of life,

(32:35):
not beginning to understand the effect that that's going to
have on the.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
Kids for the rest of their lives.

Speaker 9 (32:44):
Yeah, in all these different ways. I mean, you know,
you work, it's hard to discern all the different things
that it's caused. But mhm, it's just the temporary pleasure
of this fucking pardon my language, sorry, okay, Uh, it's

(33:08):
just a temporary pleasure that the person is getting. And what.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
And what do you think of it, Joe, because if
you were also at the hands and I'm so sorry,
by the way, thank you for sharing. And we're so
sorry to hear this. It's really tough. It's tough on boys,
it's tough on young girls. There's no one to talk to.
So here are these ladies that they're talking out, but
no one's really listening.

Speaker 9 (33:36):
Joe.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
Do you think that's going to change.

Speaker 9 (33:40):
It's hard to say because it's such a man dominated world,
you know. And yeah, people are and you know, there
there's so many they're they're in denial about it, like
how it affects people. And I get the I mean,
there's a correlation between the fact that they're doing it

(34:02):
with girls and the fact that they're doing it with boys. Yeah,
it's completely a power over thing. But it's also the
thickness where you know, you know, they're just looking for
their own sexual pleasure and once it's gone, it's done

(34:25):
and for them, and then the ramifications of it, like
a kid, thirteen year old kids, what was that? You know?
I can remember I tried to talk to the guy
about it and he was like, you're not sing it
never happened.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
You know, you felt denied. Yeah, you felt a night.

Speaker 9 (34:46):
Well, no, you don't have to be sorry. I mean,
it's just part.

Speaker 3 (34:49):
Of what's your advice?

Speaker 2 (34:51):
Do you have any advice for anyone who's experiencing that,
who's probably listening right now, and Joe, you are so
not alone.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
What's your advice?

Speaker 9 (35:00):
It was an interesting situation that happened. I was probably
about seventeen and I met the guy. I mean, this
was a respected person in the community, you know, and
these predators are so good at what they do. My
family was chaotic, so he knew that he could pick

(35:23):
on me and it wouldn't get back to my parents
because you know, as a kid, I'm looking for any
kind of adult thing that I can. So there was
a situation where I met the guy uptown and where
I grew up, and I was right across from the
police station and I asked the guy. I said, what happened?

(35:48):
And he said, nah, they have it. And I'm looking
over at the police station. And if I only had
the you know, because it's complicated because there was a
much love guy. I love the guy. He's a great master.
We love scouting. Yeah, but the mystery of what happened
and why it happened is so confounding that I would

(36:13):
just say. The advice is that if somebody touches you
and properly get help, find somebody and have the courage
to fight back. You know, but it you know, thirteen
year old kid, what's the thirteen year old kid going
to do? Well?

Speaker 4 (36:34):
Joe, thank you so much for the call for the
information and also for the advice of if anything like
this is happening to you, anything you know, sexually, physically,
verbally abusive and you are underage, go to any trusted
adult you can find and let them let them know

(36:59):
because he is out there. But you do need to
share with someone because as a minor there is little
to do. So again, thank you again Joe, Joe for
sharing that.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 6 (37:14):
That's Joe.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Joe, You're so important. Thank you for sharing number one.
That took a lot of courage just to even call
into this right now during a really controversial topic.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
To have a.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
Man speak up to say how difficult it is to
speak up against a bigger system is so important.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
So thank you, Joe.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
I know just in the sound of your voice, we've
all been affected and you've helped so many. And here's
the one thing that every abuser wants you to hear.
Just be real quiet, don't talk, and Joe, you are
showing the difference there.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
So thank you. Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
I did want to give an update on the Florida teen.
You may remember that we spoke about it was back
in September. He was seventeen year old reported being shot
and excuse me, law enforcement responded to what appeared to
be a genuine crime scene. Has happened in Marion County, Florida. Well,

(38:21):
he now has been arrested for staging his own abduction
and that at the time triggered a statewide amber alert.
So he fabricated this entire incident and unbelievable. He is
a minor. But even after he was found, this teen

(38:42):
attempted to continue the ruse. Yeah, with this gunshot to
his leg, he shattered his own femur, But detectives later
learned he previously mentioned running away from home, which seemed
a little suspicious to them, and his laptop revealed he
had served how to collect your own blood without pain

(39:03):
and just very odd things in the search. So, in
any case, he's been arrested. The charges are I'm presenting
false evidence shooting into a conveyance, which along with setting
timber alight, I did not know shooting into a conveyance
was a charge, and also making a false report of
a crime, as well as possession of a firearm. So

(39:27):
we'll keep you updated as things move along. This is
true crime tonight. I'm Courtney Armstrong here with Stephanie Lydecker.
Body is out this evening and we were just updating
on a Florida teen who staged his own kidnapping and
now we are going to move on to ditty Stephanie.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
So did he and listen, it is very controversial. Has
he gotten in not time? Has he not gotten he's
maybe gotten a free lat a free road. Is he
going to serve enough time behind bars? Personally? I think
it's probably fairly somewhere in the middle. We're looking at
fifty months. Many are saying he'll be out in the year.

(40:10):
There's no real way of knowing, but there is some
now new developments that would suggest even when he is released,
he'll be under real supervision. It's not just a walk away.
He has to really be checking in. You know, it's
not really house arrest, but it's house arrest esque and

(40:31):
that is you know, probably a little problematic, but to
me it seems appropriate to I see you leaning in.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
What do you think?

Speaker 5 (40:38):
No, I definitely think it's appropriate and it should be
the case with him.

Speaker 8 (40:42):
But you know, I.

Speaker 5 (40:45):
Haven't followed all the details that are going on with it.
But if it's once he's released and this is what
he has to continue doing, it's the least that should happen.

Speaker 6 (40:55):
I mean, they need to.

Speaker 5 (40:57):
I just I just think they need he needs supervision
constantly because he was so out of control.

Speaker 6 (41:04):
And yeah, that's the end.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
And there's a couple of things that are worth noting.
So behind bars, did he is going through drug rehabilitation?
He has claimed even in his time in Brooklyn at
you know, this particular location that he felt was very
very beneath him that he really got sober and that
sober life has given him a new lease and he's

(41:31):
feeling different. And part of his reasoning to going to
the prison that he'll now be transferred to is because
they have a really good rehabilitation program there as it
pertains to drugs and we know he was, you know,
according to testimony, doing lots of it, So hopefully that's
the case.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
Hopefully that's monitored after the fact.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
This is a guy that has a lot of kids,
right we know, we saw his children really begging the
to let him come home to be the father to
them that they don't have right now. Several of them
have lost their mother kim Porter who died mysteriously and
you know their parent lists at this point. That's intense.

(42:18):
So yeah, I would assume that there's some level of
monitoring going on behind posts. And whereas others are saying
it's differential treatment.

Speaker 4 (42:26):
Well for the afterpart, for when he is released, he
even then will be required to participate in outpatient programs
for domestic violence, mental health treatment as well as substance abuse,
and that includes drug testing.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
I think that's a step in the right direction.

Speaker 4 (42:43):
That's in addition to reporting regularly to a probation officer
and submitting to searches of his person and property.

Speaker 6 (42:53):
I think all of this is acceptable.

Speaker 5 (42:55):
But it's only for five years, it seems like, right,
is that what they're saying, it's for five years.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
The only concern would be money talks, right, So is
this just going to be another example, as we've seen
did he do before, of him just paying off those
that are you know.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
The checkpoints.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
He just pays everybody off and they say whatever they
want him to say, and that's unfortunate. So hopefully that's
not the case, and there's actually real accountability for the
sake of his kids, for the sake of anyone in
his life that is functional.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
He they deserve better. He deserves better.

Speaker 5 (43:35):
But let's be honest with that kind of money, if
you really wanted to do something various in the next
five years, you could pay someone to It could all
happen behind closed doors.

Speaker 6 (43:46):
There are ways around this that I feel if he
really everything with it.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, and what about the revenge for that, you know
allegedly he will be out for Let's remember this was
one of those cases that everybody was involved in. Every celebrity,
you name them, they were somehow going to be on
the prosecution list against Didty, every girlfriend, every associate, every friend,

(44:13):
Like the Didty list was very long, and then numbers
were huge and the names were Huger. Not one single
person has arrived at the scene, right, So nobody was
called to the carpet for their association. Nor did anybody
come to the carpet to defend Diddy, which I'm sure
he will not forget, so here he is behind it.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
Well, let's also not forget that.

Speaker 4 (44:38):
If you know it, let's make believe it was the
case that nobody would stand up for Diddy. I have
a hard time imagining his say, his mother, his children
wouldn't have gotten on the stand to defend him. His
defense his counsel chose as a strategy, which lawyers choose,
you know often enough to put up no defense and

(44:59):
just say, okay, send it to the jury.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
And do you think Jlo.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Would not have been helpful? Do you think it would
not have been helpful to hear from jay Z and
Beyonce about how great he is. It's impossible to imagine
that that would not have been helpful, oh man, possible,
But honestly, Like, here's Justin Bieber showing up and saying
that he was a joy to work with and that
all of the videos that we've seen that were wildly weird,

(45:26):
regardless of what they were, they were just weird.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
Let's just go there. Let's just put him in the
weird category they.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
Existed right about the acknowledgment of that, and just say no, no, no,
Vidy was awesome.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
He was awesome.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
Anyway, We're not going to totally know this, but there
will be more to come. Please, if you've missed any
of the first hour, join us as a podcast right
after and we'll be right back because we have a
few more talkbacks and we're going to be getting some therapy,
thank goodness, so stick with us.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
We're talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
By the way, it's just the two of us.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Kind of we've kind of gone wild tonight because we
have Taha, we have Adam, we have Sam and by
the way, body is outsick right now, so we're giving
her all of our get better soon you know, cold
remedy wishes everybody send them bodies way and in the meantime,

(46:36):
we're going to get a little therapy because we are
so excited to have you here, Belle Shook. By the way,
equestrian therapy is something we've been talking about kind of
internally for.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
A while now.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
I'm a tinge afraid of horses, tinge, which is probably
why I am the best suited for everything you do. Also,
Courtney and Bell they went to high school together, so
this is also a bit of a reunion. Hopefully we'll
get some gossip about.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
The olden days off the air.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Yes, I'm sure she was so fun and home anyway,
so welcome.

Speaker 3 (47:14):
We're so happy to have you here.

Speaker 8 (47:16):
Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.

Speaker 3 (47:18):
Yay, Bell Shook.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
So, Bell is a licensed therapist. She created the Equine
Guidance Method and that it's really unbelievable. So Bell uses
the powerful bond between humans and horses. It helps calm
the nervous system. It helps survivors heal from trauma and
rebuild trust after really life changing experiences, which is.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
A lot of what we talk about.

Speaker 4 (47:42):
You know, where do you go from being a victim,
to being a survivor, to being your back to your
best self. But for anyone new to this, can you
describe equine therapy?

Speaker 3 (47:55):
How does it work?

Speaker 8 (47:55):
Bell? Yeah? So, equein therapy simply put, is horses helping
people heal. There's lots of modalities, there's lots of approaches
out there, there's lots of ways that people are working
with horses to help people heal. And I'm trained in
actually three different types of ecoin therapy. So, as you said,
I had created my own method because as a trauma expert,

(48:19):
I was really able to recognize that the horses were
taking We're taking people places that just can't always happen
in talk therapy or other traditional types of clinical work.
So after I earned my master's degree, I did ten
additional years of trauma training, specifically in doctor Peter Levine's approach.

(48:42):
So I'm a somatic experiencing practitioner, and once I got
exposed to Peter's work, I thought, oh, wow, this is
what the horses are doing. They are not just reading
our energy, They're not just tracking our emotions or mirroring
our emotions. They are literally being present with the person's

(49:03):
nervous system and more importantly, restoring it back to safety
and rebuilding that place of self trust and connection that
so often gets lost after a traumatic experience, you know.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Because it's something we talk about here every single night, right,
And even last night we were just saying like, Okay,
this is the most traumatic story I've ever heard, or
this is a person who's been traumatized in a way
that's unimaginable. And yes, we can share those stories, we
can talk about them, but on Thursdays we just kind
of want to scratch at other ways that we can

(49:39):
all be opening our minds and our hearts to different
therapies that we can sort of have in a regular
person's life.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
Right.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
So I'm a little afraid of horses only because I
wasn't raised around them, That's the real truth of it.
And one time I was with buds, really close friends,
and we rode horses and it was a magical experience.
And then maybe another time, with maybe different circumstances, it
was kind of a scary experience.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
And I would.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Assume that's because my nervous system was probably being reflected
in the experience. And I guess that says it all right,
Like they say dolphins, horses, they're they're so in tune
to human emotions that, you know, our nervous systems kind
of are kind of put onto them. So do you

(50:27):
have to have a horse or be a horse lover
to be affected by your work. No.

Speaker 8 (50:32):
In fact, the majority of people that I work with
have never had any horse experience, and in some ways
that actually makes the intensive even more effective for them
because they're not coming in with all this baggage around
what we should or shouldn't do with horses or what
the rules are, and you know what's right or wrong,
and oftentimes that can be extremely helpful because at equine guidance,

(50:55):
what we're doing is the complete opposites really of the
way that humans have engaged with horses for you know,
since the beginning of time. Really, So if you were
to come out and watch an equine guidance session happen,
it would seem almost as exciting as watching paint dry,
because we're not making the horse do anything. We're not

(51:16):
asking the horse to do anything. There's no riding, there's
no round pinning, there's no brushing. What's happening is that
a space is being held for the person's nervous system
to come to the experience. So that's one of the
things that makes equine guidance quite unique and different from
other modalities in that we are waiting and allowing the

(51:39):
space for the person's own innate healing intelligence to be
able to come forward, and that can be extremely helpful,
especially when you think about trauma, where in talk therapy
it can be all too easy to get lost in
the narrative or the questions about why me, and that
would be a natural question for anyone to ask after
going through a traumatic and so not the place to

(52:02):
actually heal from because our left brains want to make
sense of things logically, and sometimes things are just so
horrific and tragic that there is no logic to it,
and so by working with the herd at Eckline guidance,
we actually come to it through the approach of connecting
with the nervous system or the right brain.

Speaker 5 (52:24):
Yeah, I'm happy to hear that you don't have to
ride the horse, because, like Stephanie.

Speaker 6 (52:27):
I have a little bit of a fear, so that
that would have been my concern.

Speaker 5 (52:30):
Why is I think you're about to touch on this?
But you and I spoke a little earlier, and I
found it fascinating what you touched on why horses are
such great partners in this therapy, Like what it is
about their intuitiveness that they pick up on humans and
why that is why they have such a strong bond.

Speaker 8 (52:48):
Yeah, so humans and horses, our relationship goes back through
throughout time. So there's that. And then also, horses are
prey animals, so they are hyper vigilant to fencing the
energy or the space. They're hypervigilant to reading the nonverbal
cues or more more accurately, the cues of a person's

(53:12):
nervous system that will be radiating out. So every one
of us has had an experience where we've walked into
a room and no one has said the thing, but
immediately it's like, oh, what is this? What is happening?
And finally someone says something and it's like, oh, okay,
deeperath like you I feel that.

Speaker 3 (53:30):
Yeah, fascinating, Yeah, this is true crime. Tonight We're on iHeartRadio.

Speaker 4 (53:36):
I'm Courtney Armstrong here as always with Stephanie Leidecker, and
tonight we are joined with Belle Shook. She's a licensed
therapist to use the human and horse bond to help
people heal from trauma.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
We want to hear from you.

Speaker 4 (53:49):
It is up on the talkbacks, or give us a
call if you have any questions about equin therapy eight
at eight three one crime.

Speaker 3 (53:57):
So Bell, you mentioned.

Speaker 4 (53:59):
How prey are particularly wired to feel your vibes. For
my layman's term and my husband when we first met,
he came with a bird, a cockatoo. They're the tall
white it's very different, but they are prey and these
are smart.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
They talk, these cockatoo's. His name was Junior.

Speaker 4 (54:22):
But Junior, if you walked into the room like you said,
and if you had like a bad day and or
had an aggressive day or any kind of energy, he
would absolutely react immediately in kind is that really he
would say, Courtney, No, he was not articulate that way.

(54:44):
He would more say hello, give me a kiss. But
the vibe, yeah he would.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
Junior, he was a little smoocher.

Speaker 4 (54:51):
But in terms of feeding off of energy, literally, if
I was excited in pretty much any kind of way, happy,
laughing at or pissed off at my husband, you know, excitable, yeah,
you know, flapping and just respecting and mirroring.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
Well, we were talking.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
About this last night Bell because you know, listen, it's
somebody who has stayed with me and I know us
since our conversation last night. You know, Sheina Scarborough. She
lost her daughter recently. She was on our show last night.
She's an extraordinary advocate, but going through, you know, arguably
the darkest time any human or mother could possibly go through.

(55:36):
And here she is doing all these extraordinary things for others,
and keeping her daughter's spirit alive, and raising her other
living daughter who's getting straight a's in high school, and
trying to hold down a job.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
And the list goes on.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Imagine every one of our lives, and now add the
most hideous extreme circumstances on top of.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
Those lists that we're also about.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
And all I could think was, there's no way this
beautiful human whose smile is from ear to ear because
she's just radiating that her nervous system and her adrenal
glands and her cortersol levels are.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
Like off the charts because.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
She's in it right, and there's no guiding light, there's
no rule book, there's no blueprint. She is just forging
through on her own. And it made me think, oh
my goodness, Thursdays, like, how do we all help, Like,
how do we all, you know, hold space for anyone
who's going through a situation like this? And I think

(56:38):
there's power in that, right when we all kind of
hold space for each other in moments of unimaginable trauma,
that's important. I would imagine that horses in the most objective,
beautiful way probably just or able to be there for
space exactly.

Speaker 8 (56:58):
One of the things that really brings me hope as
a human being is that our nervous systems will naturally
and train with the most regulated nervous system. And so
I'm one hundred and something pounds and I'm pretty regulated, right.
I do a lot of self care, I'm a trauma expert.
I'm always working at down regulating my own nervous system

(57:21):
and so on. And so if you could imagine three
very regulated horses that are each at thousand pounds each,
that's three thousand pounds of regulated nervous system. Wow. And
so often trauma happens in relationship, and so therefore the
remedy for healing trauma is relationship. Horses can be so

(57:45):
such a good bridge for people that have been traumatized
in some way by other people, because they're not people
they're horses, and they don't get lost and left brain
logical ego meeting making kinds of stuff that we naturally
do human mammals. And so they have a back door
to being able to help the nervous system downregulate from

(58:08):
stuck states of flight, flight, and freeze with such an
exceptional grace and such an exceptional gentleness too, because it's
the horses will be tracking the person's nervous system and
they'll be able to see I don't know how, but
they'll be able to see areas of the body where
they're stuck energy. Really, so I'll give you an example.

(58:32):
I worked with a woman and she had lived her
heart's desire, her life's purpose, but she wanted, more than
anything used to be a stay at home mom and
raise her children. And she got to do that. And
when her fourth child left for college, she broke her thumb,
and then the doctors prescribed her pain medication, and then

(58:54):
on top of that, she was drinking alcohol appropriately. But
then what ended up happening is that it was this
perfect storm and the grief of having her life shift
in such a way when she broke her thumb, and then,
you know, so her assistant basically tipped into addiction and
she was out there with my horse, Salsa, and Salsa

(59:16):
was licking her thumb and I had no idea why
he was doing this at the time, and I was
thinking to myself, Wow, this is pretty interesting, like I've
never really seen this before. And then when she came out,
she said, do you know who I am? And I
got that like scared moment, kind of like at the
end of the Scooby Doo Show where it's like, oh
my gosh, like who are you really? Yeah, and then

(59:42):
she shared the story, I you know, I tipped into
addiction after I broke my thumb and Salsa spent the
whole time licking her thumb. And that was one of
my first early experiences in the early two thousands where
I was like, something else is happening. This is way
beyond like tracking energy and like mirroring emotions. And that's
when I started my pursuit of trying to figure out

(01:00:03):
what that answer was. And it's a creditors are stabilizing
in the nervous system.

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
Oh my gosh, Well stick around. We are going to
hear much much more. We have Belshuk who will be
with us and we're also going to hear some really
remarkable real life stories through crime.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Tonight, we're talking all things equine. Am I saying that
we're correctly equine therapy? Yes, because it's therapy Thursday, and
we're thinking of different ways that we can kind of

(01:00:42):
regulate our nervous systems, especially if anyone who's listening has
had trauma. By the way, all of the stories we're
talking about are so trauma inducing, right. So, as much
as we all want justice and we want to have
answers and unpacked things keep ourselves safe in our own worlds,
which is why I think we're all kind of gathered

(01:01:06):
around the same little proverbial kitchen table right now talking
about true crimes, it's also equally as important that we
kind of regulate our own selves and make sure that
we're self caring and looking out for each other. And
you know, Bell, you seem to have sort of the
answer to all of this, So tell us more about

(01:01:28):
all the things horses.

Speaker 8 (01:01:30):
Yeah, yeah, so all the things horses. And I think
that horses are so good at this work. Well, actually,
let me just say something here, and that's that it's
not that all horses want to do this work. All
horses can do this work because we're technically working with

(01:01:52):
their innate intelligence as a creature. However, just like any
animal assisted program, that animal has to want to participate
and be part of what's happening. Otherwise, you know, just
like us, it's like, oh my gosh, this is too
much whatever. It might be, like.

Speaker 5 (01:02:11):
They even need therapy for themselves at some point if
they're always doing this kind of work. How many horses
did you say, Are there three that you're working with
in particularly.

Speaker 8 (01:02:22):
Yes, I have three American bashker curlyes. So they are
the hypoalagenic version of horses. There's only about five thousand
of them in the world, and they were discovered as
late as nineteen sixty when a rancher in Nevada had
a bunch of horses turned out on his ranch and
this really bad winter storm came through and sadly all

(01:02:43):
the horses perished except for the ones that have this
curly Dean Dakota Native Americans yeah called them the horse
before the horse, because they believe that they came down
from Russia to Alaska, into Canada and down into North
America that way. Whereas for the most part all the
other horses were brought over by the Spaniards, so they're

(01:03:07):
very hearty. Yeah, they're kind of like mustangs. And they
had these beautiful fluffy winter coats in the wintertime.

Speaker 5 (01:03:14):
And yeah, I do say this, but do you have
a favorite salsa?

Speaker 6 (01:03:19):
Sounds like it would be mine? But which is tell
me a little bit of salsa.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Which for sures you in my head are so saying
right now, if you do an emoji, it would be
you and it's salsa emoji.

Speaker 5 (01:03:34):
Yeah, but then also tell me a little bit about
you know, how they like, how they how you came
to find these stick three horses as well.

Speaker 8 (01:03:44):
Oh my gosh, it was divine interventions. So I was
in my early twenties, and I had been doing this
work already for a few years with colleagues that were
in a position to have ranches and horses and so forth.
And and then someone in the area contacted me and
said that she would like me to work with her
and her horses. And she loved her sessions so much

(01:04:08):
with me that she then allowed me to work off
her property with her three American basher curles Memi, Penny,
and Salsa. And then in two thousand and eight, when
the real estate market dropped, she gifted me the three horses,
and I was in a position to be able to
buy a ranch in the Dirty Valley. So we have

(01:04:28):
beautiful views of the Red Rocks and these three horses
and I have been working together for just over twenty years.

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
And is this like a retreat?

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
Do people come to you and then work with the
horses to regulate their nervous systems post trauma?

Speaker 8 (01:04:45):
Yeah, so it's an individual customized experience. I also work
with couples. Occasionally, I will work with very small groups,
you know, like people will be like no, like I
really really really want to do this with my best
friend or my sister whoever. And so the reason that

(01:05:06):
I don't do workshops anymore is because people fun people.
We are mammals and we naturally want to belong to
our herd. And so when we're doing really deep healing
work at the level of what's available at Equine guidance,
it becomes counterproductive actually to do it in a group format,

(01:05:28):
because people start to start to give parts of themselves
away instead of truly having the space hell for them
for the completion of whatever The horses are helping or
whatever the horses and I are helping that person work on.

(01:05:51):
So it is a retreat in a sense, and that
the sessions are one, two or three days and it's
really about how many layers and would like to get to.
We always work in the morning because that's when the
horses are the freshest, and we work in three hour
segments because with the nervous system needs is time and
space and the compassionate witness of myself and my three

(01:06:14):
horses to be able to help the coregulation. And the
idea again that trauma happens in relationships, therefore the remedy
for healing trauma happens in regulated relationship.

Speaker 6 (01:06:29):
I love it.

Speaker 8 (01:06:30):
I feel related in the relationship.

Speaker 6 (01:06:32):
I'm so happy.

Speaker 5 (01:06:33):
Once you said morning, wake up in the morning, three
hours of work and we're done.

Speaker 4 (01:06:37):
I am. I feel like this is And I have
a question for you Bell, And actually, if anyone else
out there has a question for Bell about equin therapy,
please give us a call eighty eight to.

Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
Three one prime.

Speaker 4 (01:06:51):
And you are going to need to help me find
the vocabulary for what I'm trying to say. But earlier
you had mentioned that so often that talk therapy. It
just doesn't do the job. And I've certainly heard this
and read studies, and it can go on for years
and people kind of never fully heal. And what's the

(01:07:11):
modality I'm thinking of. It's tapping. Oh you know, do
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
What I'm referring to?

Speaker 10 (01:07:18):
Ye?

Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
I don't know. Yes.

Speaker 4 (01:07:22):
And is there any similarity in either the fact that
it's a physicality or is it totally off base?

Speaker 8 (01:07:34):
I don't see any similarity there personally, because what the
horses have the capacity to do is track the nervous
system and be able to engage with the person in
such a way to help restore that person's nervous system
back to safe, calm and connected by allowing the opportunity

(01:07:59):
for a gentle and that's really important, for a gentle
release of the trauma energy out of the body. And
that is part of the reason why my approach very
much emphasizes the importance of inviting and welcoming the nervous
system as opposed to pushing the experience out. So yes, yeah, letting.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
A release as opposed to holding it in.

Speaker 8 (01:08:29):
Right exactly and and and letting letting the nervous system
come to the party as as opposed to creating an
activity or an event that you know, pushes the trauma out,
because that then can create retraumatization because it can be
too much too fast. So when we're when we're working
with guests at the Equine Guidance Ranch with the with

(01:08:52):
the horses, we're we're never moving faster than what anybody's
nervous system can manage at any point, and that includes
the horse, is not just the participants that's out there.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
It's interesting, like on a smaller level, if you've had
a pet, a dog, a cat, any kind of a
pet that you can snuggle with, right, you know, Dodger, Oh,
my Dodger, I'm gonna do Like I would sleep with
him on my neck, literally in my chest because his
little heartbeat was so regulating. And when I was working,

(01:09:23):
and sometimes I would get nervous, or if you're having
a meeting you know who has not been in a
scenario work or otherwise, that you're a little bit like
I feel nervous, and I would have Dodger in my lap,
and then I would feel at ease, right because his
little heartbeat would be there.

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):
And by the way, he was a little nugget.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
Now imagine a massive horse who you get to sort
of kind of connect with and get in step with
and also kind of create a rhythm with your nervous system.
Is just even as I talk about it, my shoulders
kind of go down little bit. And in cases of
extreme therapy or extreme trauma more importantly, it's sometimes hard

(01:10:08):
to talk about that to nauseum. It's it's something happened
to someone like we experienced even last night, just hearing
about the loss of Shahdah and her mom. You're never
gonna make sense of that. You can talk that to nauseum.
This was a monster who stepped in and caused havoc
of a really good life. It's not you're not going

(01:10:30):
to make sense of it, but you have to come
your nervous system to survive it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
I would assume I think.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
From an outsider looking in, and I think people are
experiencing levels of trauma that you know, maybe they can't share.
So having an animal or something to connect with without having.

Speaker 3 (01:10:52):
To be verbal is probably extremely important.

Speaker 8 (01:10:57):
Yeah, for sure, because our most natural state is safe,
common connected and trauma or really heightened you know, experiences
of sorts like let's say there's a natural disaster like
a hurricane. It's it's intended to be short lived. It's
not so these struck states of flight, flight and freeze

(01:11:20):
are not intended to be our way of being. Our
way of being is actually intended to be safe, connected,
and when we've gone through a traumatic event, our nervous
system understandably gets stuck in fight or flights.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
And once to isolate, probably also and isolate by themselves.

Speaker 3 (01:11:40):
Because you don't want to be a burden on anybody.

Speaker 6 (01:11:43):
Yeah, no, I agree.

Speaker 5 (01:11:45):
Yeah, Well, I just I want to ask you about
a case. I think when we talked earlier, there was
an incredible breakthrough that you talked to me a little
bit about, which was involved the sixteen year old girl
and her mother that came to do some therapy with you.

Speaker 6 (01:12:01):
Can you share that with everyone and tell us about that?

Speaker 8 (01:12:05):
Yeah? So, first off, I just want to clarify that
the majority of my of my guests are actually adults.
Every now and again I will work with a child,
but I always give a disclaimer because you know, children
want to brush horses, and they want to ride horses,
and they want to like lead horses around, and and

(01:12:27):
you know, I'm there standing with the with the participants
supporting them and tracking their nervous systems and asking how
they're feeling. And sometimes they can be a bit eclectic
for children. So and because you know, we're not riding
and brushing and that kind of thing. So I think

(01:12:47):
also when when a child has been traumatized in a
family system, there's a secondary trauma that inevitably will happen
for the parent because a parent wants more than anything
for their child to be safe and happy and thriving
and you know, doing things that that a teenager should be.
And so when I when I worked with this mother,

(01:13:11):
we uh what what what had happened is that her
sixteen year old daughter was going to a medical professional
and she had taken her daughter, uh to you know,
the first handful of sessions or so and uh and
felt that that she could trust the doctor, that the
doctor knew what they were they were doing, and you know,
there was a good treatment plan in place. And so

(01:13:33):
the daughter eventually started going by herself and the doctor
unfortunately sexually assaulted the sixteen year old. She she she
went home afterwards, immediately told her parents what had happened.
They took her to the hospital. All the evidence was gathered. Yeah,

(01:13:56):
and and so then you know, a court proceeding star
the family thought that this would be done in six months,
especially with DNA evidence. And then simultaneously, this this family
and this sixteen year old daughter went through a five
year court case, which added a whole other gravitation and

(01:14:16):
that the justice of the justice system is not always intact, unfortunately,
And so so the work that the horses and I did,
we were able to help the help the mom get
her nervous system into into a space of peace again

(01:14:38):
and calm again. And uh and it was just so
beautiful to watch the horses surround her and support her
and have their presence be with her and use their breath,
use really gentle touch. At one point, Mimi put her
nuzzle nose on the mom's knee for about five minutes,

(01:15:00):
and you could just think about how incredibly soothing and
regulating that is to our nervous system. And yeah, it's beautiful, beautiful.

Speaker 6 (01:15:10):
That's incredible, that's amazing.

Speaker 4 (01:15:13):
Listen, stick around, we have a lot more to dig into.
Therapist Bellshook continues to tell us about her therapy approach
and how that is really changing lives, and.

Speaker 3 (01:15:25):
We have that and more.

Speaker 4 (01:15:26):
I think we have a couple of talkbacks here on
True Crime tonight, and we would love to hear from you.
Eight A eight three to one crime True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 3 (01:15:35):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
one of my most favorite humans period the end, exclamation point,
Courtney Armstrong and listen, and body is out sick tonight,
so we are missing her as always when she's not here,
but we are wishing her well. She has a terrible cold,

(01:16:08):
so we told her to go to bed, period the end.

Speaker 3 (01:16:11):
Or also exclamation point.

Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
But we have Taha and Sam and Adam and the boys,
and we are we are knee deep in a really
important conversation with Belle Shook. She's an equan guider or
guidance giver therapist of sorts, basically using horses to help
regulate anyone, but specifically, in our case, anyone who's experienced

(01:16:36):
trauma or difficult times. Right, so you know, raise your hand,
make it you know high if you've had a bad day,
likely this is therapy for you.

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
So she's dedicated her life to working with horses to
really help humans regulate their nervous systems and hopefully bring
them some peace.

Speaker 3 (01:17:00):
And by the way, what a.

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
Beautiful life's work that you've dedicated to yourself to and
we're so happy to have you here on therapy Thursday,
So first and foremost thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:17:12):
So yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
And also a butt of Courtney's back in the day.
So you know, at some point we're going to gossip
about Courtney in high school. So su're ta set the clock, boys,
we need at least two minutes to have a Like.
I know, Coy is the coolest cat in high school,
so we know this already.

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
I would have been following her around like.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):
A little duck as I as I know I would have.
But you know, it was interesting about horses, just in
the materials that I was reading prior to you coming,
is that they sort of mirror human.

Speaker 3 (01:17:46):
Behavior, right. They are mirror our nervous systems. Is that accurate?

Speaker 8 (01:17:53):
So they mirror our emotions and even our affects that
were not conscious of. So a great example of this
is I was doing a couple's retreat intensive and uh,
the Aspen wife. I'd been on my property for about
five minutes and my three horses start to do this

(01:18:17):
dance with each other, and there's lots of movements, and
the male horse, Selsa's flirting with with Mimi and then
you know, running off to give Penny a kiss, and
then the two mayors are squealing at each other like
two jealous girls. And yeah, and Selsa's man parts were

(01:18:38):
hanging out.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
I thought you were up this couple.

Speaker 2 (01:18:49):
We need what is happening, but you can smell it
a mile away. The couple is having troubles, right, So
the horses are reflecting their emotion.

Speaker 8 (01:19:00):
H yes, So I say to the couple, I say,
was their infidelity because my horses are acting out this
whole scene. And they said, yes, that is that was
the beginning of our marriage, uh, starting to fall apart
and uh and ultimately why why we're here? And so
uh it was. It was a beautiful session because again,

(01:19:23):
the reason that that three hours is so important is
like let's like let's start to gently, slowly open with
what the trouble is, but then have plenty of time
to be able to work through it and help each
person's nervous system be able to feel down, down, regulated
and safe, calm and connected again. And this this work

(01:19:44):
is particularly helpful for for couples because if you could
imagine there's like the husband's nervous system, the wife's nervous system,
and then there's almost like a third nervous system of
the marriage, and helping all three of those parts come
come back into balance is really ideal.

Speaker 3 (01:20:04):
Have that, Yeah, Dob, you don't have that balance.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
You can't even speak normal, right that there's no road
to speaking productively if everybody's hyped, and it's really hard
to be happening if you're in a relationship where everyone's
you know, for coxa. Right, So if you're in a
relationship that's hitting a dead wall, that's very traumatic, and

(01:20:29):
everyone's feeling amped and picking a corner, that's very traumatic.

Speaker 3 (01:20:34):
Maybe it takes a horse.

Speaker 5 (01:20:37):
Do you is it a horse for each person with
a couple, or is it do they both work with
that same horse together?

Speaker 8 (01:20:44):
Yeah, such a good question. So in the early years, right,
I would have my three horses locked in their different paddocks,
and and then I'd be like, okay, like you've chosen
that horse or this horse has chosen you, and and
and over the years I started to think, you know,
if I trust these guys as much as I claim
I do, Why am I being so controlling? And so

(01:21:06):
I started to do the work where all the horses
were free, all three of them were free, and it
was so fascinating. It was they showed me that they
knew when and who to go and engage with, how
far to stand away from that person, what part of
their body they would touch if they touched that person,
and what horse was needed next. And so they work

(01:21:32):
collectively as a as a herd, and my job is
to support the person in tracking their nervous system as
well as the attuned to the information that the horses
are sharing.

Speaker 6 (01:21:45):
Wow, that's incredible.

Speaker 3 (01:21:47):
It is.

Speaker 4 (01:21:48):
And then Bill, while this is going on, or I
guess even before, because in the two instances you've mentioned,
it sounded like you people hadn't sort of told you
exactly here is my problem I'm having infidelity?

Speaker 3 (01:22:02):
Is there?

Speaker 4 (01:22:03):
Do you set things up so that you kind of
find out through therapy.

Speaker 3 (01:22:08):
Or what is that process? Generally?

Speaker 4 (01:22:09):
If I called you and said, hey, I need some help,
what goes on?

Speaker 2 (01:22:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 8 (01:22:16):
Exactly. So I do a free consultation call discovery call
prior to somebody booking because I want to make sure
that that they're aware of the type of work I'm
doing and it makes sense to them, and it makes
sense to to whatever their their struggle is. And so

(01:22:40):
there's there's a there's a there's an hour long call beforehand,
and typically people will will share with me what what
they would like to come to Sedona to work on
with the equine guidance hard And because we're working with
the nervous system, sometimes people think okay, like I'd really
like to get to topic A, but then when they
actually get out there with the horses, topic be arises

(01:23:03):
because we're giving the nervous system the platform as opposed
to the narrative of our mind and what we think
should quote unquote happen. And so also I like to
have initial consultation calls with people too, so they can
feel really good and confident about the investment of flying

(01:23:24):
to Sedona. The majority of my people come from around
around the country. Many of them have done years of
therapy already, and all the cognitive behavioral therapy or you know,
talk therapy that they've done has been really helpful in
regards to insight. So they are they have an awareness

(01:23:45):
that their nervous systems are still stuck in a time
of in the past somewhere.

Speaker 6 (01:23:52):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (01:23:53):
I find some of those specific stories or specific cases
so fascinating on how you help people shift and change.
And there was one that still stood out to me
when we spoke. It was about the there was a
person that was wrongfully accused of a crime. Tell me,
tell me a little bit or tell everyone else a
little bit about that one, because that was fascinating to me.

Speaker 9 (01:24:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:24:14):
So a gentleman contacted me and he wanted to come
and work with the herd. Uh And what had happened
is he was wrongly accused of of a crime that
he did not commit, and the court system, Uh, he
was he was looking at going on trial and he

(01:24:36):
had a significant amount amount of anxiety on a daily
and pretty chronic basis, being faced with the with the
fear of spending five years in prison for something he
didn't do, and how that would alter and impact his life.
And uh So when he came to work with the
with the horses again, it's the you know, the three

(01:24:59):
of us, myself and the guests that's there that day,
and uh and the horses just so sweetly and gently
and slowly and moved at it at a snail's pace,
which is really really important for any type of trauma,
so that then there's plenty of time for things to

(01:25:19):
open gradually and then also be able to be integrated
and then ultimately restored. And and he left the session
feeling feeling really confident in himself, much calmer.

Speaker 7 (01:25:31):
Uh.

Speaker 8 (01:25:31):
We we did some guided imagery also, so that then
when he was in the courtroom on the stand, he
would be able to imagine me, me, Penny and Salsa
standing in there and being his coal regulating force and support. Ultimately.

Speaker 5 (01:25:49):
Yeah, I have not met me La, but I'm feeling
regulated already.

Speaker 6 (01:25:54):
Just hearing their names. It makes me feel.

Speaker 8 (01:25:57):
Yeah, and you know, was it was so beautiful because
he was found not guilty, because he was not guilty, thankfully,
and and you know, it's just it's, uh, it's it's
it's unfortunate that they that the justice system falls so
much on how well someone can lawyer up and and

(01:26:19):
how well everyone does understand as opposed to what the
actual truth is.

Speaker 6 (01:26:24):
Yeah, we've talked about that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
Everybody gets hit, you know, you you talk about trauma.
We've like, we we hear stories that are so tragic
nightly literally nightly of people who have the wherewithal to
push on. But you know, sometimes it's without tools, right,
So we're like, oh, it will get better with time,
what does it even mean? Or you go to therapy

(01:26:48):
and you can talk about it, and that just keeps
bringing it up and they're like, oh hours up, Okay,
oh my goodness. But the actual healing piece of it,
I do think you don't heal alone. And maybe then
not alone isn't always just applying to humans. It could
apply to animals and to horses and to yourself, who

(01:27:09):
are just kind of like taking a reback everybody back
to their authentic state where they can kind of regulate
themselves at some point once you get the kick in
the right direction.

Speaker 4 (01:27:22):
Or even it's it is amazing how much and we've
spoken about this both on the show and quiet a
bit off the show, of just how much trauma does
live in your body.

Speaker 3 (01:27:32):
I mean, it'll make you sick. Oh, next thing you
know you have.

Speaker 2 (01:27:36):
I don't know a single by the way, in my
friend group, and I have the coolest, greatest friends that
I can't wait for you all to meet. Everybody's dealing
with some sort of autoimmune thing myself included.

Speaker 3 (01:27:47):
You know, I have Celiac disease. Who cares? It's like
the most worrying topic.

Speaker 10 (01:27:51):
Everybody starts to giggle and like everybody just rolled their
eyes as I said it out loud, I was like,
and then you know what about me with my celiac
disease by the viral central But like, now take that
out of it, like but like real autoimmune things that
are or you know, dealing with, you know, real dis ease,

(01:28:11):
the lack of ease, dis ease that is being brought
on from traumatic events that are not being discussed or
shared out loud.

Speaker 3 (01:28:21):
I think the biggest issue.

Speaker 2 (01:28:23):
No one cares what I think, But like not having
the luxury of sharing with a loved one, or not
having the luxury of sharing with a best friend or
an ally, maybe a horse is the answer that somebody
could who can tell you to take it down and
that it's okay and that you're not alone, and that
this will get better and you will heal from this.

(01:28:45):
You know, sharing is the first step, right, like crying
with like we don't do it alone in isolation in
our own screwed up heads. That is for sure the
wrong answer, but only when you're in that, When you're
in a trauma state, you want to be alone and
isolated in your own messed uphead, right, it requires somebody
to pull you out of it, and not everybody has that,

(01:29:08):
so maybe it's you and having horses that can sort
of step in where the human can't, can remind people
that you can not broken.

Speaker 3 (01:29:18):
This is just like a real good, you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:20):
Know, crack and like we're getting along with the show
and this will be a story we'll tell at some point,
but like when you're in it, it's really hard to see.

Speaker 3 (01:29:28):
That so so true. Oh my goodness.

Speaker 4 (01:29:32):
I just want to make sure we get this information out.
We have a little bit of time left, but listen,
whoever would like to find out more, or of course
to engage in therapy with Belshuk. This equine guidance sounds
so amazing. I just want, yeah, like I want to
be so good. It sounds so incredible and it sounds

(01:29:56):
life changing, honestly I love Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:29:59):
Yeah, But to point that out too and say that
if you'd like to learn more about the experience or
go for yourself, it's as simple as visiting equanguidance dot com.
And again that's equanguidance dot com and that I can
tell you right now that I've got my cowboy hat
from Beyonce. I'm going to be packing that up and
getting on a plane and going yah to visit you

(01:30:20):
because I need that cowboy boots. I got to do
the whole outfit, the whole thing.

Speaker 4 (01:30:25):
And then also on TikTok and Instagram equine guidance as well.

Speaker 3 (01:30:29):
So you're fine. But yeah, we all need a little
dysregulation or people break, right, people break.

Speaker 2 (01:30:37):
It's a breakthrough, but maybe you need to have your
nervous system regulated. And I think it's really remarkable. And
I'm so grateful that we got to meet you, Bell,
and I want to go to Sedona. It sounds so
fun and again, thank you for sharing. And I think
we're all better for it. And listen, you're going to
be back, right you promise, give raise your right hands.

Speaker 3 (01:30:58):
Come on, here we go.

Speaker 2 (01:31:00):
Nah, we're talking, so she will be back. So more
equan therapy to go. This is true crime tonight. We
will see you tomorrow.