Roblox Under Fire, Brian Walshe Defense Win, and the Hidden Crimes Behind a Donut Shop

Covering the arrest of a suspect in the murder of 23-year-old Kada Scott, whose remains were found near an abandoned school; Florida’s Attorney General targets Roblox, calling the platform a hotspot for child predators; and a USC Ph.D. student faces charges for drugging and sexually assaulting multiple women. Plus, Alan Wieder joins to discuss his podcast The Donut Shop Murders, which uncovers the dark secrets of a family’s hidden criminal empire. Tune in for all the details.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
We welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. It's Thursday, October twenty third,
and guys, we have a stack knight of headlines. Listen
to the suspect that has been charged in the murder
of twenty three year old Kata Scott. He is now
in custody and her manner of death has in fact

(00:41):
been revealed. Also, Florida's Attorney General is literally suspending roadblocks,
basically calling it a hotspot for child predators. We were
just talking about this. This is a major major development.
Also at USC, the University of Southern California, a student

(01:02):
has been charged for serially drugging and sexually abusing women,
a PhD student, I might add. And in lighter news,
our KT family member Alan Waterer is here to discuss
his podcast, The Donut Shop Murders, which is a really

(01:23):
twisted story about a family and they're hidden criminal operation
they had running, and he is coming up to discuss
all of that and more, Ladies, I missed you. I
missed you last night. And see do you have fun
with your other friends? Well, no, no, I listen. You
guys are my truest. You're just geographically we are. We're

(01:47):
awry right now. So I have one friend here and
now I have three. So yes, and you guys had
such a great job last night. So hats off, hats off,
hats off. And by the way, anyone listening, of course
we want to hear from you eight eight eight three
one crime or you just leave us a talk back,
or you could always hit us up on our social

(02:08):
media and just dm us. In fact, let's go to
a talk back.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
Now, Hey, guys, this is Brittany and the Philippines and
I fight trafficking and I just wanted to chime in
on a couple of things. I was listening to your
using equestrian or therapy, and we actually use scuba diving
and time in the ocean and water therapy to help
with anxiety and PTSD for our kids. So this is

(02:35):
part two because I only had thirty seconds, but I
was listening to you guys talk about trafficking and roadblocks
and one of the biggest prevention seminars that we do
with our kids in the Philippines is how to spot
predators on games like that and just on social media
because they are just primed to get groomed and a

(02:56):
lot of times are ignorant. So thanks so much for
your podcast.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Such a great one. Yeah, body, I know this is
a story that you've been tracked, you know, tracking all day.

Speaker 4 (03:08):
Yeah, the Roadblock stuff, and thank you so much for that.
Talk about Brittany and wow Philippines.

Speaker 5 (03:12):
Wow, I know, ps way to make the most of
your thirty seconds, jam packed.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
You're a pro.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
So she fights trafficking and they in the Philippines they
educate I guess the children on how to spot these
predators on these games. And man, we could use some
of that education right now, right Uh. The Florida Attorney
General is taking matters into his own hands at this point.
He has launched a criminal probe into Roadblocks over child

(03:41):
safety concerns, and this is joining a growing wave of
lawsuits that the government is accusing the platform of enabling
predator access to minors. You know, we've talked about this before.
One thing we do here on True Crime tonight is
we really try to we're trying to We're not trying
to scare parents, right, We're just trying to educate a
little bit about and Listen. I'm certain that most parents

(04:04):
probably know all this stuff, but there might be one
or two. And if if we can help just one
or two parents, I think then we've done our job, right.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
I nobody knows that.

Speaker 5 (04:13):
Yeah, yeah, I actually say I disagree.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
People don't realize this. Okay, roadblocks is I don't freewhere.
It is honesty, probably very hard to escape as a parent,
and it's sort of steered toward younger kids in furie.
You know, as a parent, if you look at the
cover art, there's no blood in gore, does it? It
seems appropriate? And in of itself it's yes, it looks childlike.

(04:40):
So the fact that this is actually a hotbed, as
the Attorney General of Florida is saying, is astounding, and
I'm so grateful that we're talking about.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
It, right, So the Attorney General. You know, Okay, if
you don't know what rollbox is, it's an online gaming
platform with millions and millions of users, many of them
are children, and it is facing increasing scrutiny and litigation
alleging that it's design and moderation systems allow sexual predators
to connect and groom minors. So basically what they're saying

(05:14):
is that, you know, you don't have really good moderation
controls in the game within and of itself to monitor
for these activities, and so you need to implement a
new design feature or whatnot. But until then, we're done.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Right.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
So, several US states, including Kentucky and Louisiana, as well
as effective families, have filed lawsuits claiming Roadblocks has failed
to implement sufficient safety protocols and age verification tools to
prevent such abuse. Wow, so this is kind of a
big deal. You know, I know a lot of kids
are kind of addicted a little bit to Roadblocks, right,

(05:55):
and it's part of their social.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Restructed Yes, I mean you, in fact, you're kicked out
of your social group. This supplies the most social media, right. So,
and to our caller's point, you know, I can barely
navigate the world. Can you imagine being a kid with
you know, the purest of brains. That's not being impressionable,

(06:17):
that is just being a kid. So the fact that
people are praying on that it's not surprising, But I
don't know what the safeguards should be. I don't.

Speaker 5 (06:28):
I mean, there are camps, you can send your children
to roadblox camps, how to design your own world, how
to this so it really it is a thing that
not a lot of people realize. And also how quickly
these predators can change children's lives. It can happen very quickly.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
And keep in mind this was really because of COVID, right,
so you know, correct me if I'm going, but really,
robots exploded when COVID hit and everybody was home, and
every kid suddenly had a tablet and a computer, and
there was no way to interact with friends, and it
had sort of this like elementary school vibe, maybe middle school,
Like it didn't seem like, oh, we're all the scary,

(07:09):
bloody things, right, so this seemed like a very safe choice,
a very elementary basic choice, and everybody was online, so
there was no way to avoid it. That's how kids interacted, right,
and what it may still do.

Speaker 4 (07:24):
And as I think Courtney you pointed out, like this
is part of like the social group dynamics that kids
are you know, at school and their friends all play, right,
So you can't just say, okay, kid junior, you no
more roadblocks, because then they're they're cut off, they're ostracized, right,
So socially it affects them if you just take the
game away.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
Right.

Speaker 4 (07:44):
So it's just not as easy as I make it
out to be, Like when I say I would never
I would never allow roadblocks in my home, and I
stand by that, by the way, But I know it's
not that easy.

Speaker 6 (07:55):
It's just not I haven't played it. Could I ask
a question if I don't know if any of you
are familiar, like are there parental controls that like you
could limit who the child is talking to? Or like,
can you are there any kind of ways to structure.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
You can have your own embody.

Speaker 5 (08:10):
You will probably correct me on this, and please do
you can have your own server?

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yes, that's true.

Speaker 5 (08:16):
And then and what is the benefits of having your
own server?

Speaker 2 (08:20):
You can only let even if you say that, I'm like,
what does that even mean? Most most people play with
the public.

Speaker 4 (08:26):
Okay, so they log in and they're playing with the
seventy other million daily users. You can also create your
own like instance, your own server. And then if you
create your own server, let's say I created my own server,
and because I want to play with you know, Stephanie's niece.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Let's just say that, Okay, you would love my niece.
I'm sure I would.

Speaker 4 (08:49):
I could create my own server and I could say
only these people can come into my server and play
with me.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
God, so like basically parental control of some kind. You
can there's some kind of like a grouping, kind of
like your social like your Facebook used to be, right,
only my friends and people that I elect can be
in this you know, exciting conversation or on Facebook, they
only my people can see photographs. And a lot of
people do that.

Speaker 4 (09:14):
A lot of people, do you know, they say, well,
my kids only play on the server, and I'm kind
of like always saying to myself, no.

Speaker 6 (09:22):
Yeah, you know what I mean. Another and they probably
don't want to only play with those like probably the
fun of the game is to play with other people
and different levels. Like now I can be Stephanie Sneeze
all the time. I want someone who's a little better
or something like.

Speaker 4 (09:35):
But I'm just guessing, yeah, there's I mean, the fun
in the game is playing with a bunch of other people, right,
And so when you do the only my.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
Server type situation, it's not as fun.

Speaker 4 (09:46):
You know. I play a lot of Minecraft, and it's
kind of the similar situation. My friends and I get together,
we play Minecraft, and it's I love Minecraft, but.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
It's not as.

Speaker 4 (09:56):
Fun when you're playing on a public server with a
bunch of other different people with you know, and when
you're playing on a private server, you don't have all
the tools that you would on a public server.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Got it, I'm getting off I'm getting off track a
little fun. I really have missed all things gaming. I
just kind of missed it. I love gaming, and I
could appreciate it. I'm like, I just, for whatever reason,
didn't get sucked into that rabbit hole. Yeah, I got
sucked in too many other rest assured. This is not
I'm not standing on anything great here, but yeah, how

(10:28):
do you navigate? How do you navigate? Listen? This is
true crime tonight. We are on iHeartRadio.

Speaker 5 (10:34):
I'm Courtney here as always with Buddy Moven and Stephanie Leidecker.
We're talking right now about the Florida AG's criminal complaint
against Roadblocks, as well as other lawsuits. We'd love to
hear from you. Yeah, you know, any parents, anyone who
knows adults or children that would be everyone, Yeah, what
do you think?

Speaker 2 (10:54):
What do you do?

Speaker 5 (10:54):
How do you navigate this eighted eight three to one
crime body?

Speaker 2 (10:58):
What else do we need to know about these developments?

Speaker 4 (11:01):
Roadblocks chief safety officer Matt Kaufman has reported that the
company self reported twenty three thousand potential child exploitation cases
to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in
twenty twenty five alone. And we're not even done with
twenty twenty twenty five yet, I'm going to repeat that
they self reported twenty three thousand potential child exploitation cases

(11:25):
that happened on their platform. So they are claiming that
they are actively and proactively monitoring and responding despite those measures,
though critics and plaintiffs because again they're being sued despite
those measures. Critics and plaintiffs maintain that Roadblocks has prioritized
growth and profit over child safety, arguing that its business

(11:49):
model and inadequate moderation continue to expose children to predatory risks.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
In that social media I think on its as a whole, right,
I agree that just the thing at this point, like
maybe it's started as a good idea to keep us connected,
and you know, well listen, I'm not saying anything unusually new.
How disconnected? Does you know? This make us very now?
It's taking it to a criminal.

Speaker 4 (12:16):
Criminal, it's a criminal plaint and that these some of this,
like the Louisiana and Kentucky lawsuits, they argue that Rollblocks's
age verification and the parent the built in like parental
controls are insufficient and misleadingly marketed as protective, allowing adults
easily pose its miners and access children's spaces, which is true.

(12:36):
You know, we talked about, you know, in Rollblocks, it's
kind of like a platform.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
It's like a game within a game.

Speaker 4 (12:40):
You can build like different experiences, and they build experiences
that maybe would be appealing to children, but they're built
by predators so that they attract the children to come in,
and they once they get in those experiences, they get
in and it's like, you know, they've got these skins
which you can just with with these roadblocks books that

(13:03):
make them appear nude, and they start, you know, jiggling,
and that you know, it's just it's not a good place.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
It's just not a good place to be. I just
wouldn't he's saying, it's nay on the o blox Ray
this is may try and talk and pig Latin does
not really it didn't really go as as it used
to in seventh grade, but so kind of that's a
hard no. Well for me, But again, I don't have kids,

(13:30):
it's so easy for me to say. I mean, I
know that's still I think everybody listening wants to try
to put their best foot forward. Knowing what we know now.
Even if this was a decision made two weeks ago,
it does seem as though there's new information. Well, what
do you do.

Speaker 4 (13:44):
You've got maybe a kid in third grade, Let's say,
you know, Billy comes home and he's like, you know,
Jimmy and Sean want me to play roadblocks with them.
What do you do as a parent at this at
this juncture, right, what do you do? Do you say
no and ostracize him socially for like, you know, this
could potentially affect the rest of his social life, right?

Speaker 2 (14:04):
But also maybe billion Oscar's mom's or dads may also
be like happy to hear this information as well and
to collectively Again, this sounds like a very simple answer.
I know it's not. But maybe like as parents who
kind of get on board with a different game. Is
that a thing? I don't even know what the different
game would be. I wish I did. But Roadblocks appears

(14:28):
to be like Candyland in our day, right, like it was.
It's like shiny, and it seems young, and it seems
really harmless. And I guess that's what's so heartbreaking about
this case. And thank god Florida's you know, attorney general
is putting a stop to it.

Speaker 7 (14:46):
Right.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
One of the key cases involves a thirteen year old
boy in Kentucky and he allegedly befriended this predator on
the This this experience called the pet simulator, by a
thirty year old predator posing as a teen. The offender
offered him rollbox gift cards in exchange for sexually explicit photos,
and later threatened the little boy with exposure. I mean,

(15:09):
this is what's happening, you know, Like if you don't
give me more, I'm going to tell your parents.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
And here here's the pictures I have of you.

Speaker 5 (15:14):
That's right, and it's an escalation and the kids are
ashamed and.

Speaker 4 (15:18):
Sure, and I mean these kids, these Roadblocks bought these dollars,
these that they want our priceless to kids and it's
hard to say no to them, So please be careful
out there, guys, Please.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
Be careful when we come back.

Speaker 5 (15:35):
A suspect has now been charged in the death of
twenty three year old Kata Scott. The medical examiner has
just revealed exactly how she died. Later, we are joined
by Alan Water. He's going to talk about the donut
shop murders his wonderful podcast. We've got that and a
whole lot more true crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm
here with Courtney Armstrong and body move in and listen.
We want to hear from you. We want to hear
from you live or a talkback. You just have to.
We want to hear your voice. We love the dms,
but we actually really love the interaction of hearing you specifically,

(16:26):
So please keep them coming. Eight eight eight three one crime. Honestly,
we eat it up, can't get enough of it, So
the more of you, the better. There's so much to
discuss tonight. So how about this PhD student who has
now been arrested in charge with serially serially drugging and
sexually abusing women. I mean again a PhD student who

(16:51):
does that remind us of? And also later in the show,
a member of the KT family Alan readers here to
discuss his podcast The Nutshop and you know more on
Katas Scott and the new developments there are are nothing
short of tragic and heroing. But first let's go to

(17:12):
a talk.

Speaker 8 (17:14):
Hey y'all, It's Jennifer from Texas. Love you all so
so much. I have a question about your weighted vest.
I'm ready to do it, but I've never done it,
and I don't know where to start. What is your
favorite brand? What weight should I start at? I'm ready
to jump on board. All are amazing, Love you all,

(17:34):
Antaha and Sam Adams as well.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Oh bye, so sweet. That is the nicest talk back ever.
By the way, didn't we need this palette cleanse? Like
a little light? After such dark chat? I can jump
in about the weighted vest. By the way, it is
important to note that we are not Jim experts. By
the way, I'm going to speak for myself because you

(17:58):
guys actually might be in Courtney. You're in train, so
I am not a gym expert. So take this in
the spirit it is intended, which is simply what I do,
because I probably heard it somewhere. And by the way,
I went to a pilates instructor. And I have a
dear friend, Courtney, a different Courtney that you actually probably
have met, court that has the sickest back I've ever

(18:22):
seen in shoulders, and she subscribes to the weighted vest,
So go very low. This is my two cents. I'm
actually it's shocking that I'm prescribing right now. But Amazon
or we're you know, Walmart, Target anywhere. It is not expensive,
like under twenty Yeah.

Speaker 4 (18:41):
I started at ten pounds and my weighted vest from
Amazon was twenty three dollars I think. And the biggest
thing I did not want was the ones that cover
your test because I feel really like freaked out when
things are like really tight on me, you know what
I mean, Like I get like I get wigged out
a little bit, I get little claustrophobic. So I got

(19:03):
the kind that has two buckles in the front too,
That's what I'm wondering.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
Now.

Speaker 4 (19:07):
Mine looks just like yours exactly, and then a little
snap in the middle snap.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
And the boot and like your back is kind of
and go low in the way the lowest that they offer.
If you're new to this, I don't know what everybody's like.
You know, athleticism is I'm doing. I'm doing now twelve
twelve pounds. However, I only wear it for two segments.
So now you've been working up like a half an

(19:31):
hour then right, right, so about thirty minutes, I guess,
and I do sometimes take it off during commercial So
if we're getting on the same exercise plan, my two
cents recommendation would be just like a couple of minutes, right,
or do it during commercial break at first, or you know,
and walk around the room, or if you're just sitting,

(19:52):
you kind of place it on your shoulder blades and
just do it for like one segment or half a second.
This is slow, slow and steady. Our long term goal
is summer, some a baby. We're gonna have the sickest
shoulders and backs and arms. Apparently it's like a full
body little extra something. But you don't have to be

(20:12):
walking or anything. You could, but I'm sitting right now.
Sometimes I stand, But you do want to just like
not overdo it. Body, You overdid it first of all,
knowing Courtney's wearing like ninety pounds probably front and back
to one hundred and eighty pounds on her right now,
I'm wearing twelve. Stephanie can talk about this for an hour?

Speaker 9 (20:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (20:34):
Wait, should we continue? What else can we talk about?
Regarding the weighted best it's my favorite topic. She loves
slow and steady. Yeah, I wore mine the whole show,
and it was a big mistake. Do not do what
I did. And it was the first time. Man, I
haven't worn it since. Yeah, no, no, you had to
put it on. You're only going to put it on.
You're going to put it on reminutes. That's it, maybe
four minutes. Like this is when no one's in a

(20:55):
hero's challenge. Here, we're slow and steady kids, slow and steady.

Speaker 4 (20:59):
I never think Salon City. That's my big problem.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
Actually, it's one of the things I love most about.
You don't go change in all right, let's go back,
or let's actually go to skip the talk back. Actually
we're going to switch gears. But this is a kind
of a hard switch. It is so you know, Courtney
from waited vest to a difficult topic.

Speaker 5 (21:26):
Yes, we are taking a hard right turn, which I
feel like I'm often taking those hard right turns. But
there is an update. Philadelphia prosecutors have charged Kean King,
the twenty one year old, of murder and connection with
the death of twenty three year old Kata Scott, and

(21:47):
just today the cause of death was revealed to be
a gunshot wound to the head.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
We've spoken about this case before.

Speaker 5 (21:53):
Kata Scott was reported missing back in early October.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
It was October fifth.

Speaker 5 (22:00):
It was one day after she'd been seen outside of
her workplace in Philadelphia. Apparently she was upset and leaving
in a dark colored s t V that later came
to be found out was tied to the suspect King.
And she was just a gorgeous, a literal beauty queen,

(22:20):
literal beauty.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Click you brought away beautiful nothing that is even anything
but now has reported beautiful inside and out right and again.

Speaker 5 (22:30):
So the charge is now formally murder and Kean King
faces a lengthy list of charges kidnapping, arson, robbery, conspiracy,
abuse of a corpse, as well as tampering with evidence.

Speaker 4 (22:46):
I want to know who he's working with. I mean,
this is the defense attorney, No, the suspect, the suspect,
So we learned through the court, the court records and whatnot,
there's two people seeing caring something that looked like a
body out of the car into this shallow grave. And
then we learned that a very specific anonymous tip came in.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
Telling them where to find her, which was this other person?
To identify who was this other person? Right, I mean,
that has to be somebody else. How do they not
track those calls, those types of tips that are so specific,
because you want those calls to be coming, right, even
if it's within the circle of you know, dirty trust, Right,
even if it was somebody who was a part of

(23:32):
the crime. You want those tips to come in. But
you would think they would be able to track that
because that was so specific. It was. That's what the
articles I read said that said a very.

Speaker 4 (23:42):
Specific anonymous tip came in telling the authorities on where
to find her.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
And then they.

Speaker 4 (23:49):
Affidavit says that two people were seeing unloading something from
this black car that it was associated with King as
you stated, Courtney, and leading it to a shallow grape.
Two people, who's this other person? And where is he?
Are they looking? I mean, I'm sure they're looking into it.

Speaker 5 (24:07):
But I'm gonna bet and also that's that's hard to
keep a secret between Yeah, two people.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Well, and he confessed, right, so I'm assuming he's in
there spilling his guts. You know about this other person,
I would imagine this clown is twenty one years old,
I know, like what in the and Kata Scott such
a big life ahead. You know, we can't talk about
her brighter light than she was. I mean even the

(24:37):
work she was doing was so devoted and altruistic, not
the kind of thing you can pull off. So yeah,
she like knows this person he's twenty one years old.
This life is also over. How is it possible that
that is your best choice to not only take the
life of somebody as wonderful as Kata Scott and then

(24:57):
also do what he did to her and just toss
her away like it's unbelievable. Oh, it's deplorable. Absolutely.

Speaker 5 (25:07):
Something else body you had mentioned the affidavit of probable cause.
Something else that came out was that on October fourth,
so the day before she went missing. This was a
ten seven pm. She allegedly texted King quote kidnap me again,

(25:27):
to which King replied, better be up, better be up
to and it was followed up by plans to meet
later that night.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
So obviously they had like a loose, texty relationship. And
I guess that's even more scary, Like can you imagine
just you know, talking a little bit in slang and
maybe it's a little flirty and like this is what
that comes to and body if you're correct, if there
was a second person involved, is that do you think
in your gut? You know, again, we're just theorizing that

(26:00):
there was perhaps a second person also involved in the
crime itself, not just the disposal of the body. I mean,
she gets into an suv and maybe there are two
people there. She thinks she's just gonna be like she's
being cute or like, you know, she's talking a little
bit like oh yeah, come kidnap me, Like oh again,
we don't know.

Speaker 4 (26:20):
He had this black Hyundai accent, right, and it was
later found burned like he something happened in that car,
I think, and he was trying to get rid of
the evidence.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
I'm guessing, right.

Speaker 4 (26:33):
And the coworker that last saw her outside the workplace
around ten o'clock, so it was around the same time
with this text exchange, right party correct, she appeared upset
and she was speaking on the phone and she said,
I can't believe you're calling me about this blank, And
there's like a swear word, so it's probably like, you know,
I can't believe you're calling me about this, right, So,

(26:56):
and then she walks towards this dark colored suv that
was parked outside her workplace. And so there's this suv
and then there's this Hyundai accent. So I do think
that the possible other suspect in this case was involved
and maybe even possibly owns this suv.

Speaker 5 (27:15):
I don't know, though I mean this, I'm sure these
details will be coming out, and obviously we will keep
everyone updated as information on folds for sure.

Speaker 4 (27:27):
This is to your Crimton and iHeartRadio. I'm Body Movement
and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker. We've
been talking about the tragic circumstances surrounding kaya Scott's death
and we want to hear from you.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
What do you think?

Speaker 4 (27:38):
Give us a call eight to eight thirty one crime
or hit us on the talkbacks in the iHeart Radio.
So I have an update about Brian Walsh. It's really complicated, though.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
It's like complicated when I've been there following this in
all day, tell me everything. I wait to talk to
you about this.

Speaker 4 (27:53):
Well, I can't wait to talk to you guys about
this because you guys were really invested in Karen Reid
and know the players lot more than I do, because
I didn't really follow that case all that, you know,
until this started, right and I got and then I
got interested in but then it was too late because
it was over. But Michael Proctor is heavily involved in
this update, So I kind of want to set the

(28:14):
stage a.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Little bit, if that's way Britney and I are all
we areoth like we are leaning in and huddering up. Okay,
so here's the key players.

Speaker 4 (28:24):
Okay, Michael Proctor, now Michael Proctor, he's the former lead
investigator with the Massachusettate Police.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
Okay, there's Karen Reid.

Speaker 4 (28:33):
She is the defendant in the death of her boyfriend,
Boston police officer John O'Keefe in Canton, Massachusetts, in January
of twenty twenty two.

Speaker 2 (28:41):
She was just recently acquitted.

Speaker 4 (28:43):
Okay, Brian Walsh, he is the defendant accused of murdering
his wife in dismembering her. Remember this case, this case
is ongoing. Her body has not been recovered. Okay, So
these cases, these three or these two cases overlap because
of Michael Proctor, Okay.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Who, by the way, was tossed. He was a disaster
mess in the Karen Reid case.

Speaker 4 (29:10):
Right, his text messages in the Karen Reid case. Okay,
while he was investigating John O'Keefe's death, in which Karen
Reid was a suspect. Right, he exchanged private group text
in which he disparaged Karen Reid, calling her things like
a whack job and even speculating about.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
Like her death. Right. These texts were admitted as evidence
into Karen Reid's murder trial. As a result, Michael Proctor
was suspended and eventually fired in this year March of
this year, after a Massachusetts State Police trial board found
that he engaged in quote unquote unsatisfactory performance, right, sending

(29:49):
these derogatory texts and sharing sensitive investigate information. His appeal
to regain his job has been withdrawn. So he's not
going back to work. Okay, that's that.

Speaker 5 (30:00):
That was a crazy appeal. That was a hail Mary. Ever,
the temerity to even show your face.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
The merity you have to actually spell that out and
tell us what that means. Courtney, I'm strong temarity. Oh
my goodness, I feel like I know what that means.
It's based on your tone.

Speaker 5 (30:23):
Well, that tone is my mother's because she would say
it to me. It's like just being really like overbold.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, but why would he be no, Michael Proctor, it
seems perfectly in line for him to have the temerity
to ask for his job back after he messed up
entirely and tried to frame allegedly Karen Reid. Not allegedly
he got tossed, he lost his job. The fact that

(30:53):
he was going to go back and thought he should
have it back, he may have, because it seems like
there is a boiled system within that specific district, which
is the Canton Police Department. Only that little pocket, But
what a stain and what a nerve in all the
cases that he's touched are now spoilt. It's like the

(31:14):
fruit of the poisonous tree.

Speaker 7 (31:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
Right, this is going to have to go into the
next segment. Listen, this Brian Walsh case has gotten us
all crazed and there's so much to unpack because Michael Proctor,
you guys may remember from the Karen Reid trial. He
was the lead investigator and he was ultimately discharged for
you know, inappropriate actions involving this investigation. And now he's

(31:40):
tied up in the investigation with Brian Walsh. And guess
what that means. Right, We're going to to look at
all the evidence again and if you're not familiar with
Brian Walsh, bodies filling us in so incredibly, you know,
he's accused of murdering and dismembering his wife Anna, and
what a mess. Yeah, so this has like far reaching implications.

Speaker 4 (32:02):
So again, while Procter was investigating in O'Keefe's death, he
exchanged these private messages. He was inappropriate, he got fired,
he appealed it. It's been withdrawn in the last I
think two days. It got withdrawn forty eight hours ago.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
This is not looking great and sound likely that I'm
going to get my job back, mostly because I was
not doing it very well or ethically. Right.

Speaker 4 (32:28):
So, now Brian Walsh's attorneys, his defense is seeking records
tied to Michael Proctor and the Read case and all
the other investigations, arguing he has bias and he has
miscondent problems, and it might take the investigation into Brian Walsh.
So the prosecutors are acknowledging that materials from this there

(32:50):
was we remember there was this federal investigation into Michael Procter, right, yes,
and so the prosecutors are acknowledging that materials from the
federal investigation into Proctor are going to be handed over
to Brian Walsh's defense. Wow, this federal investigation that went
into Michael Procter, all the materials are being handed over

(33:11):
to Brian Walsh.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
And just to add context to that, that just shows
how important law enforcement is and how they have to
be so careful. Right, We're seeing this in so many cases.
We're asking every day the pop star David, why don't
we have a manner of death? Why don't we have
a suspect? They can't jump to judgment because of reasons
like this. Michael Procter went down in a flame because

(33:38):
he was acting or allegedly acting not particularly ethically in
that case. So yeah, that brings into judgment all the
other cases he touched, including the guy that's being accused
of murdering and Choma's wife, Yeah, dismembering his life.

Speaker 4 (33:56):
So this tie in of this federal investigation, materials suggesting
additional over cit and potential disclosure obligations. And this is
going to potentially impact the timeline of the Brian Walsh case,
which is, you know, it's fast approaching. He's currently being
kind of like evaluated for competency to stand trial because
he kind of got I think he got stabbed, is

(34:18):
what it is. He got stabbed while he's in jail,
and after the stabbing, he kind of like he kind
of went crazy a little bit. So he has been
sent to you know, this evaluation center and he's been
there for a while. I think his next hearing is
on the seventeenth of November.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
And that's a delay too, right, so they basically pushed
that next hearing because he was in fact stabbed behind bars,
and yeah, his mental capacity is being brought into question, right.

Speaker 4 (34:50):
So we're gonna have to wait and see, you know,
what happens. And we're definitely going to be keeping this,
you know, we're keeping an.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
Eye on this one time.

Speaker 4 (34:59):
It's infuriating, Like the things that Brian Walsher are accused
of are like really horrific and you know, and involves
his children and you know, dismembering his beautiful wife who
was trying to get out of there. You know, he
also was convicted of being an art thief, and like
he's just not a good guy. So the idea that
you know, what he did in Karen Reid's trial could

(35:20):
trickle down to other cases where there was you know,
a horrific acts done is just so upsetting to me.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
But it does need to happen. Yeah, and you know
ripple effects. I feel like he's.

Speaker 5 (35:32):
Been a theme of the week in many iterations, in
many different cases, and this is one of them. With
Michael Proctor of everything is now every defense attorney is right,
a little happier today.

Speaker 4 (35:47):
I just double checked because I wanted to make sure
I was saying the right thing. He has a competency
hearing on October twenty seventh, following you know, he, like
I said, he got stabbed on the eleventh of September,
and his new trial is now scheduled for no earlier
than November seventeenth. That means it could happen in December
or something. Right, and this is of course.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Outcome by the way, like November December thing is always
a slog holidays, et cetera. But again for Anna, his
you know, beautiful wife and anyone who knows her and
loves her. This is talk about a ripple effect, right,
So here they are going into yet another holiday season
missing her without answers in this guy's calling it technicality.

(36:34):
And Michael Proctor, who honestly this little grew from the
Karen Reid case. I'm watching that pretty closely because that's
also a ripple effect. You know, maybe they had it
out for Karen Reid because they were buds with John O'Keefe,
who knows it was all very insider. But yeah, if

(36:54):
you're the defense attorney of some of these other heinous
criminals alleged, allegedly allegedly, yeah, this guy could walk as
a result, and that is so unsettling. Up, I'm gonna
lose sleep over this.

Speaker 4 (37:08):
I know. And you know what else too, The data
from Michael Proctor's phone, it was unexpectedly massive, massive, right,
I read that. And so this data it's going to
include hundreds and thousands of texts and files dating back
all the way to twenty thirteen. And because it's considered discovery,
the defense lawyers for Brian Walsh are going to need

(37:29):
time to go through it because they're gonna call him
as a witness, and they're gonna want to cross or
you know, they're not gonna want to cross, They're gonna
want to interrogate him on the stand and they're so
they need to be armed with the information of what
he was texting and if there's anything in there that
you know, is exculpatory to Brian Walsh, We're gonna have problems.
We're gonna have massive problems. Yeah, and I'm really upset

(37:50):
by it. That's the story. That's the update.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
That's the update. Well, exculpatory, that's another ten dollars word.
We go back the vests, we talk about face masks.

Speaker 5 (38:04):
I just want to talk about exculpatory evidence because not
everyone knows what that is, and basically that's evidence.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
That could free you. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (38:12):
So if I'm accused of a crime and then I
have a video of me going into CVS at that
exact time, that would be exculpatory evidence.

Speaker 4 (38:21):
Correct, And then if if the this is another one. Okay,
so let's say that happened, right, You're accused of a
crime and you're you know this, this crime happened at
eight one pm and there's a video of you buying
a Snickers Bar at CBS at eight oh one pm,
and you're watching. I'm watching the DA host this video, right,

(38:41):
they have it and they don't turn it over to
the defense. That's a Brady violation because they withheld exculpatory information.
So there's another tendeller. Look at all these any.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
Way, So let me make sure that every that I'm
hearing that as clearly, so I understand scope we're going
to have by everything we're gonna do, like Courtney's like
word of the week, some fancy word like meglomaniac. See,
I can say it, but we're all gonna learn like

(39:15):
a super smart I already forgot the one we just learned.
What was it again? It's is what it is? I
can't wait. It makes me hungry when I hear you
say that to Merity, like it sounds like we should.
I don't know. It's like a seasoning. I want some amoran. Yeah,

(39:36):
with a glazed a little something on it. That's sound
so good.

Speaker 5 (39:41):
Yeah, it's my job to rope us back in. Yes, okay,
all right, time and place. This is true crime tonight.
We are on iHeartRadio. Courtney Body is the ring master
this evening Stephanie is marching in place in her vest.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
So that's what it's doing.

Speaker 5 (39:59):
It on because I've had it on for two longs
and I am going to update you on what's going
on with the thirty year old USC doctoral student. So
it's a man named C. Jung Wang. He also goes
by Stephen. So Stephen Wang has been charged with multiple

(40:19):
counts of drug facilitated sexual assault and this spans four
years from twenty twenty one. He's being held without bail.
Authorities are very actively seeking out other potential victims. There
is a hotline, so it's very scary stuff. Wang allegedly

(40:41):
targeted women in Los Angeles, where the University of Southern
California is. He incapacitated them with drugs that he put
in food or drinks, and then is alleged to have
sexually assaulted them. This investigation began after German authorities alerted
APD and evidence was recovered at Wang's residence that corroborated

(41:05):
the involvement of the multiple drug facilitated sexual assaults. I
don't I'm so curious what.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
The German about this? What a German like? How did ye?
I think one of the victims and not that I'm Courtney.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one of
the victims was German. And remember USC is an extraordinary school.
Also Courtney and her husband's armor mater. So only the
smartest of great come there. But think about that. You

(41:37):
Nobody should ever ever drink anything anymore that is not
opened in a can by you. That is the one
thing that I have learned on this show. If you
go to a bar, if you go to a party,
and again like this is for like I think college, right,
you don't get those red solo cups anymore. No one's

(41:58):
doing shots at the bar. You need to crack it
by yourself, that can, because it is so easy to
slip something in. And you know, a PhD student, this
is having Brian Coburger undertones. You know, we know that
Brian Coberger was watching carnography about drugged.

Speaker 4 (42:19):
It was so weird that you just said that because
I was just thinking of the red solo cups in
the red exactly and that's all we saw in those photographs.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
And again like we're not you know, not to jump around. No, yeah,
it's so serious, and I think it's a tragedy of
this generation. Like nobody can drink anything that served them. Well,
I mean, it did happen in our generation. I was
gonna say, yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:45):
Yeah, it it definitely did happen in our generation. I
just don't know that we knew about it then.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Like that's fair. I can tell you fair. Well I can't,
but yeah, that's so fair.

Speaker 6 (42:54):
It's so fair.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
But the slicker in my head that just happened. You know,
we discussed that, yeah, I mean one hundred percent, but
knowing what we know now.

Speaker 4 (43:05):
Knowing what we know now, and I have you guys
seen those the covers that go over like cups at
the bar you can buy. They're like kind of like
little cozies and they fit. They're elastic, and they're they
have a little hole for the straw if you you know,
there's a straw situation, and you they just.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
Fit over any cup, any cup.

Speaker 4 (43:28):
Because they can drink and yeah, smart, But I always
worry they're going to stick them down the straw.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Something down the straw.

Speaker 7 (43:35):
Though.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
That's fair. If only it was like a saran wrapped
seal almost frozen and then you put the straw straight
through it. Oh that would walking around. But like, I
don't know, there's got to be an answer to this,
because that is the story of the moment. You've seen
the nail polish. That's exactly what I was about.

Speaker 5 (43:53):
To say, there's nail polish. My understanding is that it's
had some inconsistant results. So I'm I just want to
should you look into getting this product? Just look into
it as all I'm saying. The idea is fabulous. It
is undercover colors, it's nail polished, and it is designed

(44:14):
to detect date rape drugs.

Speaker 6 (44:17):
Your finger in and if you get your finger in, brilliant.

Speaker 4 (44:21):
This is like a billion dollar idea for somebody, Like
if you guys can come up with something that's kind
of like foolproof, billion billion dollars because bars, bars would
buy it, right, Bars.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Would have time to be a bar serving drinks because
they should be putting them with apps.

Speaker 4 (44:37):
And even when people in college like go to you know,
parties off campus or whatever, they would buy these products.

Speaker 6 (44:43):
I think like a billion dollar The cover one is
a great idea too. But I'm going to say there's
a bar in my area where I'm not going to
say the name, but even the bar staff was involved
with spiking the drinks. So trust the bar now, So
it's a tricky.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
It's a very tricky.

Speaker 5 (45:03):
I mean really, don't put it down every Yeah, yeah,
you can put your.

Speaker 4 (45:07):
Drink down and then you and then you loosen up
because your bus a little bit absolutely like yeah, next thing,
you know, you're you're roofys in college.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Let's be very clear.

Speaker 5 (45:18):
And then I would have drank anything from anyone at
any time.

Speaker 6 (45:22):
Yeah, especially if someone what it did?

Speaker 2 (45:24):
You know you drank from buckets? Like right, yeah, right, you.

Speaker 4 (45:28):
Would skip, you would, you would scoop your coat, you
like me, like we do your funnels.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, funnels. That was a disease, is like the beer
began just thinking about all the beer bongs. But yeah,
in my the nail idea, that's brilliant nails. I do too.
But I'm so like particular about my nails. I know,
I was gonna say, buddy, this is the geography. Look
at my nails right now, you see, I know it's
definitely it's own special little I need to come see.

Speaker 9 (45:56):
I'm trying.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
You did them a day.

Speaker 5 (45:59):
Ago, Betz crime scenes all at the tips of Stephanie
Ladecker's fingers.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Well listen, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 5 (46:11):
So I was just gonna say we will, we will,
we will keep you updated on this situation. And I
also did want to say it is important that Wang
was arrested but has pleaded not guilty to the eight
felony counts got are charged against him.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
That's right, We'll keep coming. We have Allan Waiter coming
up too, because of the Donuts Shot Murderers, which is
an extraordinary podcast. Listen. We don't make this podcast, Wondery
makes it, but it's so good and we're so happy
to have him here. And we also want to hear
from you, So give us a talk back or call
us eight at eight three one crime, stay with us

(46:48):
True Crime tonight. So listen. We have Alan Weader here
who was a beloved friend of ours and of KT.
He was also an extraordinary help in the piked In massacre.

(47:10):
But wait, if no one's listened to the piked In massacre,
we hope you do, and Alan, can you hear us?
Welcome to the show. Hi, Hi, miss you guys, I
miss you, save far too longmore. Yeah, listen, well except
for this exact second, because you've been out about solving

(47:30):
other crimes, doing other important fancy things. So for those
that don't know Alan worked and he was an incredible
asset on the piked in Massacre. He also worked with
Taha and I back in the day on Temptation Island
season two. Had listen how purposeful has it all become?
And I'm so grateful? Yeah, full circle, full circle.

Speaker 7 (47:54):
So so Alan, that was the show that ruined my marriage.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
Oh no, Alan really.

Speaker 7 (48:00):
Being away for like six weeks at a time when
the marriage alreaty wasn't good fun with me.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
Well, you got a book out of it.

Speaker 5 (48:08):
So Allan is also an author and an artist and
an artist actually you should share.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
It's a Year of the coh.

Speaker 7 (48:15):
The book is called Year of the Cockya. It was
like a psychosexual memoir of my divorce and it's very dark.
I think you can find a few copies on eBay.
Probably it did well, but it's been twenty I got
almost twenty years. Sin stuff came out. I mostly dropped
mostly these days, I mostly dropped pets. I don't know
if you've seen my recent pet work. I'm an illustrator.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
You're an illustrator and also a producer. He also did
this extraordinary podcast wonderam makes It so you know Wondery
sort of the Golden Seal and as we are these
competitives great. We love those guys were inspired by their
work and the Doughnut Shop Murders is what Alan went
on to work on and really crushed it. It's a

(48:56):
fantastic podcast and really juicy'll be confusing, harrowing, weird pace. Right,
I don't even know where to begin. How would you?
I don't know writing about it.

Speaker 4 (49:05):
I'm dying there.

Speaker 7 (49:07):
Well, for so much of the podcast, I was trying
to wrap my head around, like, so, it's about this
itinerant family. They came from Texas, and forget the town
that they came from, but they were petty criminals in
Texas and they were doing like they were passing bad
checks and doing small town robberies and they were just

(49:27):
kind of getting by grifting. And then there was a
lot of heat on them and they decided to as
a family hit the road. And at first it felt
like they were just going to relocate just to kind
of get out of the sort of escape the heat
in Texas. But what they ended up doing was going
on this twisted road trip that went from Utah to

(49:49):
Colorado to Kansas, Georgia, Florida, all the way back up
to Canada eventually the Pacific Northwest, and they killed so
it's called the Chuck Murders. This family working together. Not
everybody had a strong hand in the killings. It was
mostly the Sherman McCrary who was the patriarchal family, and

(50:10):
it was his son in law. They did most of
the killing, but Sherman's wife assisted in covering things up
and disposing of bodies and that kind of thing. And
then their daughter, Ginger was kind of a wacky character.
Not only was she complicit in the murders, but she
had a spending problem. So anytime they robbed the place
and killed someone like, she would spend all the money instantly,

(50:32):
and so they would have to go rob and kill again.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Now, but what was she spending this money on?

Speaker 7 (50:37):
Can you so crazy? So crazy? So basically, they hadn't
killed anyone during their time in Texas. I wish I
could remember the name of the town they were named.
But they hadn't killed anyone. They were just passing to
had checks and stuff. When they got on the road.
Sherman and his son in law Carl Taylor. During mc
quarry and Carl Taylor, they got like a bug up

(50:58):
their ass to just like killed people, and so they started.
They went to a donut shop in Utah and there
was a single woman working there. And the reason why,
as you'll learn as the story goes on, like the
reason why donut shops were so ideal for finding people
and killing it was killing mostly young women sometimes men,

(51:19):
was because they were solo operations. Donut shops tended to
be very well lit, so you could drive by and see, oh,
other customers in there, and they tended to be manned
because like right, doughnut shops are mostly if you drive
by windshells or something, you can see it yourself, like
donuts are. Donut chops are designed around displaying the donuts

(51:41):
and creating hunger for those donuts. And so it became
kind of this ideal target because it tended to be
one person working there and it tended to be very
very visible from the street in terms of well lit,
in terms of what was there. They went to this
donut shop in Utah, and they are all originally thought
it was just going to be a robbery, but then sherman,
his father law, ended up taking the girl, kidnapping the

(52:02):
girl and throwing her in the car and then they
drove not too far away and they took all the
money that was there. And it wasn't a lot, it
was a donut shop. But they took this girl, this
woman who had this young girl who had been working
in the donut shop. They took her out into a
field and killed her. And it was really weird. It
was just really weird. There was no need for them
to kill anybody. They could have just something napped in Sherman.

(52:25):
And he felt dissatisfied with bait, with petty crime, and
he wanted to be attain his person. He was. He
had an unbelievably horrible childhood and was abused, and it's
something snapped and it was no longer satisfying to just
steal and pass bad checks. He wanted to kind of
enter the annals of the serial killers that everybody was
hearing so much about.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Wow, almost an effort to be a little famous. Is
that was that? Sort of like that famous but to
feel willinous?

Speaker 7 (52:52):
Yeahous, yeah, notorious. And Carl was kind of along for
the ride. He sort of worshiped his father in law.
Then first they just killed some young women, which was horrible,
But then they started raping and killing but there was
no clear It was very haphazard. Their journey took about
It was a little over twelve months across the whole

(53:13):
United States. They killed twenty people, and nobody ever really
knew about them. That's ultimately kind of this weird. I
wouldn't call it satisfact about the killings, but nobody knew
who they were when I was when I came on
to produce the show, I had a hard time fighting
anything online about this family, let alone anything juicy. Yeah,

(53:34):
when we did the podcast, the New Yorker picked it
up and they did a really wonderful piece on it.
But yeah, so the funny thing was, it was like
they didn't gain that notoriety. Nobody really knew who they were.
I mean, I guess in hindsight, I mean, me digging
up the crime years and years later gave them that
bit of fame, I guess.

Speaker 5 (53:50):
But the death right, I have a question for you, Alan,
And actually, if anyone else out there does give us
a call, we are at eight eight eight three one Crime.
And yeah, Alan Weiter he created Wondering's hit podcast, The
Donut Shop Murders, So yeah, he's here for any questions
that you may have and I believe you were searching

(54:11):
for the town. I believe it might be Athens, Texas.

Speaker 7 (54:14):
Yes, Athens, Texas.

Speaker 5 (54:15):
Good job for it's a good job, taha. It's like
hot potato of passing information.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Thank you, taha.

Speaker 5 (54:22):
So you've called the story sort of a twisted American dream.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
What do you mean by that?

Speaker 7 (54:27):
Well, you know, when it really was on the very
big team of people making and it was really just
me on my couch, and then I had this really
talented associate producer named Michael, and it was really just
us too, just calling around and trying to find cops
who had worked on the case. And you know how
it is. I mean, you're an amazing podcast that you

(54:47):
did on the Piked Mascer and so many other amazing
grind podcasts. You know the deal. But we were joking
that they were like the Griswolds, you know that it
was like this weird, disturbing road trip. It was like
almost like natural born killers. But they were a family.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
I can't even not to cut you off, Alan, but
it's extremely rare for a family. And by the way,
they're not all blood either. That some of this is
like by marriage.

Speaker 7 (55:16):
They were all involved Liz McCrary was involved in covering
up some of the crimes. Herman was the boss. You
had Carl Taylor, who was the son in law. He
was married to Ginger, who was Sherman's daughter. And then
there was another son named Danny, who was also Sherman
and Liz's son, who was kind of an idiot, but
he really wanted in. He was like intoxicated by the

(55:39):
killings they were doing. He knew what was going on,
and so they led him in a couple of times
into the into the killings. I think he participated in
a couple of them. And then they had young children too.
Carl and Ginger had three three children, and they were
traveling in a in a station wagon. So that's why
I said it was this twisted American dream because it

(55:59):
was like a of this family in a station wagon.
And I talked to a lot of cops who theorized
that their crimes were so sloppy. They would just like
kill a woman and leave her in a field. They
left fingerprints everywhere. They were terrible criminals, but the reason
why they didn't get caught was because they were They
seemed to be a family traveling in a station wagon,

(56:20):
and I think there was like a Volkswagen Beetle like
with I think Ginger drove that, but like there was
they were moving into They were a caravan and few cars,
and they were going all these places and committing these
famous crimes. But the cops couldn't process it because it
was nineteen seventy two.

Speaker 5 (56:37):
Oh, so they couldn't connect with the with the DNA
because DNA outens didn't exist.

Speaker 7 (56:42):
Is that DNA didn't exist and police departments didn't really
work that well together. He went on, Yeah, so they
finally there was enough evidence for the Texas Department of
Public Safety, I think, to issue a traveling criminal's bulletin.
So there were cops in Texas, Utah where they're first

(57:05):
killing had taken place, and then in Colorado there was
this guy named Joe Fanculi who was such a stud
and he was the He was the lead homicide detector,
who detective who caught the family. He actually put them
behind bars. He was the one and I had the
great pleasure of getting to know him for you know,
the six months that we were making the podcast, and
then we became very friendly and unfortunately he died cancer. Yeah,

(57:30):
but he was such a cool guy. I mean, the
guy was like Colombo. He was like, you know, he
the detective who ultimately brought the family down. Was his
degree was in literature, and he thought like, he's not
about crime in terms of a story, and he was
way ahead of his time. I mean, he was almost
like those early FBI A serial killer profiles who just

(57:53):
kind of understood it before everybody else. Mind hunter, yeah,
like mine hunter. Yeah. He was that kind of that
level of a detective and he was able to piece
it together. And then they issued a traveling criminal's bullet
in that of Texas and that led to there that
Barly took. It wasn't quick, but they let it did
ultimately lead to their capture in southern California. They made

(58:16):
it all the way back to southern California. It was
just such they were such a bunch of like morons.
In fact, the interesting sort of being good I have
about this is that when they were in the Pacific Northwest,
that they were in Portland and they kidnapped a young
woman named Cynthia Glass. She was like a hippie chick,
you know, really really cool, very typical of the era
early seventies in Portland, and she didn't think they were serious.

(58:38):
He didn't think they that they were going to do
anything to her. She just thought that they were idiots.
And she like took out a joint and started smoking
a joint in the back of in the back of
their car, and started joking.

Speaker 5 (58:48):
With them, and like, we're going to Cliff hang on
them smoking a joint in the car. Such a sign
of the times. And keep it here because when we
come back we have more. Ellen Wier reveals how detectives
finally connected all of the dots.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
A little more details on.

Speaker 5 (59:02):
That that and more True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here of
course with dancing Courtney Armstrong. Right now, Courtney, you are
cutting it up during the break and I love it
so much and of course our body move it. And
we're here with Alan Reader who is talking about his

(59:36):
podcast that he produced called The Donut Shop Murders. And
you know, Alan, we'll let you give a little context,
but just you know, what we're so blown away by
is the idea of a family who murders. Obviously, we
did the Pithon massacre of family murders. It's so incredibly rare.
It's also incredibly rare for stories to stick together. Right

(59:58):
in this case, it might even be multi generational. Yeah,
and some bug brought the son in law was super involved,
by the way, not even by blood. What is this
weird spark that family that the maze together, right, like, oh,
these yeah, exactly what isn't that the truth? Usually people
turn on each other though, even family, right, so you

(01:00:21):
can set your clock to the watch of Oh, yeah,
this all seemed good until somebody turns. So having multiple
people keeping the same story straight is a very rare thing.

Speaker 5 (01:00:32):
And also this road trip, like a road trip on
it on a good day. Take the murders out of
it is hard enough. Oh you know, but you're all
stacked together.

Speaker 4 (01:00:41):
That is, and they're just killing them their way across
the states, right, Like that's how they're basically traveling.

Speaker 7 (01:00:48):
They you know, the first killing was in Utah and
it was years after they were committing petty crimes in
Texas mathams they suddenly just I asked a couple of
our experts, like, you know, like, well, what causes somebody
to go from being a petty criminal, robbing grocery stores
and liquor stores. That being a murderer. And one of
my one of my experts, who's this criminologist named Lewis Lessinger,

(01:01:11):
he said they were already murderers. It just hadn't clicked
in yet.

Speaker 4 (01:01:16):
They were like attracted to each other because like they
saw something in one another that made them attracted to
one another.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
You know.

Speaker 7 (01:01:24):
Yeah, because when Sherman and Carl started, they had a
relationship that was close but competitive, and they were robbing.
They were they were robbing, they were passing bad checks.
But then all of a sudden, Sherman was like, okay,
how about this thought had shoot this ConA shop worker,
And then Carl kind of thought it was intoxicating, and
then they started doing it together.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
They just kept escalating and getting that direct.

Speaker 7 (01:01:48):
A very weird aspect of this road trips situation is
that they would actually settle in some cities. We need
to just get the heat is on, we need to
they need to cool down.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
The cooling off period, the cooling off period. Alan, it's
my skir I want to do a documentary about this.

Speaker 7 (01:02:09):
The cooling they're cooling off, but their cooling off period
was very condensed. Like with a serial killer, it could
be years before they committed the crime, as you've seen,
like the Long Island serial killer and stuff like that.
They would settle down and be like, Okay, we're good,
and then Ginger would like decorate that new house, buy
TV and rugs and beds, and spend all whatever money

(01:02:30):
they had robbed. And then they need to do it again.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
They need more money.

Speaker 7 (01:02:35):
Please, Yeah, it would let's let's all right, time to
get it. Would leave behind all the stuff that they bought.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
They left their new house that had all the stuff
in it, and then they would dip. Yeah, just so
they could repeat the exact same pattern.

Speaker 7 (01:02:50):
She was constantly buying televisions in different cities and yeah,
it's really weird. I think it was because they liked
the idea of stopping and settling down, but they couldn't
do it just Sherman and Carl just weren't one there
that way.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
There was a compulsion probably on her part too. She
was nesting, setting up a nest exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:03:13):
Was nesting and wanted to it. Seems like maybe wanted
some stability.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
But they were driven. They were driven.

Speaker 4 (01:03:21):
I'm totally guessing they were driven to kill from necessity,
but found out they actually kind of liked it and
kept going, that's what it sounds like to me. This
is the first time I'm hearing it, so please, I
might be wrong.

Speaker 7 (01:03:32):
No, no, no, I think they they They sounds amazing
because it was a Sherman was the first one to
pull the trigger and it was a thrill for him.
And then Carl was like, didn't want to be one up,
so he started shooting too. And then they committed a
bunch of rapes too. They didn't rape all their victims.
This is a difference, you know. I spent a whole
episode on this questionable that was this family serial killers

(01:03:56):
or were they just something else? And I asked all
the detectives that I had been working with build the podcast,
and some of them, Fantually the badass detective that I
told you about, he thought they were serial killers, but
a lot of the other criminologists and people I talked
to were like, they were spree killers. And I was
fascinated by the distinction.

Speaker 4 (01:04:15):
To take two things, because there.

Speaker 7 (01:04:19):
Is the difference is a serial killer has a longer
cooling off period, and it has more of a methodology
and more fetishistic feelings about the crime, like they returned
to the side of the They returned like in the
Smile Serial Killer, he would return to those bogs or
wherever he had got those women. And like haspect with
their corpses, this family did not do anything like that.

(01:04:41):
They weren't. What they did was incredibly disturbing, but they
weren't like thick in that way.

Speaker 4 (01:04:45):
Yeah, they were killing out of necessity, for money and
for things.

Speaker 7 (01:04:49):
And it was a spree killing, you know. But like
I mentioned the girl in the Pacific Northwest, if they
had who didn't think them seriously, he thought she thought
they were clowns. She was like, you don't have to
worry about I hate the cops. I'm going to go
to the cops just like let me go. And then
they shot her. So really, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
Just horrible what happened two generationally speaking, What do you
make of it? Like, what did they what becomes of this?

Speaker 7 (01:05:15):
Yeah, well, you know, I really wanted to know what
the effects of their of their crimes were on their descendants.
Most of them, weirdly had most of like the grandkids
of Sherman McCrary and and the grandkids of Carl and
the kids of Carl and Ginger were dead. A lot

(01:05:36):
of them had died really young, and I wonder whether
it was just like trauma. I didn't hear when the
podcast came out. I did hear from some relatives, including
it was the daughter of Carl Taylor, and I asked
her if she would give me an interview, and she
didn't want to. She just wanted to privately tell me
about her pain over email. She didn't want to be

(01:05:58):
in the podcast. She didn't want on a formal any
kind of formal interview. But my sense is that the
family was just a complete disaster and that the youngest,
the younger generations just died out. And I've always been
really interested in generational trauma.

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
By the way, if you're just joining us, I'm Stephanie Leidecker.
I'm here at Courtney or I'm Strong and body move
in and we're here with Alan Wader, who is talking
about his podcast that he produced, The Donut Shop Murders,
and we're talking a bit about generational trauma.

Speaker 7 (01:06:26):
My grandfather was He had been in a car accident
when I was little, so he was kind of an invalid,
but I used to just sit on his lap and
he would like tell me stories about the Holocaust when
I was like seventy years old. Grimley kind of like
grimly funny, but I was very, very curious kid, and
I'd be like, like, are your mom and dad still
a lot? You know? I would like ask questions that
they would he would tell me know they were all killed.

(01:06:48):
And I've always been interested in like senseless killing. And
I think that's what attracks me to the crime genre
so much, is that, you know, and I watch every
crime podcast or every crime series it comes out in
pretty well, watching Worst Way for Endeavor ever.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Oh, I don't know that I.

Speaker 7 (01:07:04):
See that sexs Ever on Netflix. It's good, but yeah,
so you know, I remember when I was in high
school and I learned about pole Pot. I was like,
holy rap, this guy's monster. And so the family I
was very attracted.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
Not sorry to cut you off, but even the idea
of a spree versus a serial killer, a killing spree
versus a serial killer, that idea so scary. I don't
know that I've ever really thought about it. A spree
I always thought was someone who was like, I don't know,
go in door to door god forbid, or maybe at

(01:07:42):
a Walmart and just shooting anybody that walks in the door.
But I would suppose if a family very.

Speaker 4 (01:07:50):
A spree, no reel direction, a spree has multiple locations,
So like, really I understood that.

Speaker 7 (01:07:57):
Fully killings have multiple locations and not a lot of
time in between the crimes. It's almost like the natural
born killers exactly. But it led me to kind of go,
has this ever happened before? Was there ever a family
that engaged in this kind of brutality? And I found
this family, the Bloody Benders had an inn in Kansas.

(01:08:19):
And once again, I don't know the city, Steph, the
court You're gonna have to look up the city.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
I love that you went from me to Courtney because
you're smart and knows it already. Quitting top of head.
What's the city? I don't got it. I don't got
it to say Florida.

Speaker 7 (01:08:38):
They were in Kansas, was it Applene? I'm trying to remember,
but uh, anyway, they had it. They had an inn.
They had an inn and it was bizarre facility they
had like it was this kind of quaint, nice family
in where they sold provisions. This was in eighteen seventy one.
They sold provisions in one half of their inn and
then had some dormitory is for traveling cowboys or wherever

(01:09:02):
who would stay there. And then but there was this
cloth that covered an area of the inn, and nobody
knew what was behind the cloth. Well was behind the
cloth were a bunch of killing tools, and they would
serve the guy. The guy, this wayward traveler would have
dinner and then he would all of a sudden someone
would come out from behind the cloth and bash his
head in twisted well.

Speaker 4 (01:09:24):
Thank you, Alan Witer, thank you so much for joining
us for shedding light on this incredible story. You murderers
now on Wondery and wherever you get your podcast. Allan
also produce through his company, Studio Wider, developing new true
crime documentary projects, So keep your eye out for him.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
Stick with us.

Speaker 4 (01:09:41):
You sending your talkbacks and now we're playing them. We're
going to be reacting live and maybe even calling a
few of you out.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
True Crime Tonight. Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio.
We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lydecker
here with Courtney Armstrong Important and you move in, Oh

(01:10:09):
by the way, and Sam and Taha and Adam. So, okay, Tah,
what you got for us? We need to lighten the
mood from.

Speaker 6 (01:10:19):
Some murder something. I have something that's a complete polar opposite.
Do you remember when we started doing our hero segment
and we started getting some heroes involved that, Well, I've
got an update and I'm gonna thill you in on
what's happening. So I'm going to bring everyone up to
speed in case they weren't familiar. But early on we
had an idea of having someone that we consider a

(01:10:42):
hero that we would kind of call out in the show,
and then they would tell their hero and it would
kind of continue the cycle. Well, Stephanie and Courtney for mentioned,
our first hero. Stephanie's hero was Whitney Galloway. They met
her during the Pike County Murders documentary. Whitney then Whitney,
who was Stephanie's hero, is now working with us at

(01:11:03):
True Crime Tonight. So cheers to that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
Courtney's hero, Yes, a dual set.

Speaker 6 (01:11:09):
So this is because she got two people that asked
for her. She continued the cycle and said her husband Kyle,
who's a police officer and a chemical specialist in the military,
is her hero. So we talked to him. He told
us who his hero is, and his is a gentleman
by the name of Aaron, who's a jet motor mechanic
in the military. So we reached out to Aaron to

(01:11:32):
find out who his hero was. Sadly, he is pcsing.
I didn't know what this term was. It's a military term,
I guess, but it means permanent change of station. So
because of his permanent change of stations, he unfortunately wasn't
able to get back to us and talk to us
about his hero. But we want to wish he and

(01:11:52):
his family smooth transition overseas. What sacrifice but Whitney sacrifice.
Whitney had that pretty cap on and she said, what
if we do something a little different and our next
heroes are our four legged friends, like sort of painines
who've done something heroic soastic. You like that?

Speaker 2 (01:12:13):
Goodness? Listen, I'm the only pet detective allowed on the show. Okay,
you don't with body? By the way, don't f with
Rita is the new season two? Don't f with Rita?

Speaker 6 (01:12:27):
Don't with Rita? I do like right's?

Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
Is Rita active or is she a little like low key?

Speaker 6 (01:12:35):
She?

Speaker 10 (01:12:35):
She's active? I mean she I have to put on
socks first thing in the morning. She'll just bite my
feet like alm, I'm trying to wake up she's.

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
I wouldn't call it a nibble. She'll just bite them.

Speaker 10 (01:12:51):
Maybe she's hungry, but she's a good cat. Then she
just sleeps the rest of the day. She just gives
me a hard morning.

Speaker 5 (01:12:58):
I think you know that thing just puts her on
the cusp of even being considered for future hero segments.

Speaker 6 (01:13:05):
Yes, I'm gonna say I want cats to be in
our future one, But for this one, I've got a
dog who wants to hear about a heroic dog.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
I do we do?

Speaker 10 (01:13:13):
I do?

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
I do?

Speaker 6 (01:13:14):
All right, raise your paw if you want to.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
Everybody's paws up, Sam, where's your paw? Yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:13:22):
Are you ready for this one? Here's the story. It's
a Florida rescue dog who is being hailed as a
hero after saving her owner's life during a medical emergency.
Here's the story. On September fifteenth, twenty twenty one, Harry
Smith was walking his dog Ellie, when he suddenly suffered

(01:13:42):
a stroke and collapsed in the driveway. No one was around, well,
Ellie went crazy, started barking frantically ran between Harry and
the neighbor's property line refused to leave like he was
like like Ellie's like barking and going insane. The neighbor,
Carol Kelly, came running out because she heard the dog barking.
She discovered Harry lying unconscious, called nine one one and

(01:14:05):
they came saved his life. The Gainesville Fire Rescue paramedics
arrived and the doctors confirmed it was a stroke and
they credited Ellie's behavior for the rapid response. So he
would not be alive if not for little Ellie who
saved their live hero. Isn't that amazing? They and in

(01:14:25):
the area. The town Gainesville went as far as to
organize a good Dog parade honoring Ellie, stopping Ellie, I
know three parcels and maybe it got me choked up
because I'm like, I'm a big dog man. So they
had a.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
Little parade for little Ellie. When he tells us, I
like these, smile honestly reaches his ears.

Speaker 6 (01:14:56):
What you're making me smile more? Well, I have another
one if you want to hear one more. I got
a nine story. Okay, here's another one. This one is
also in Florida, This is a police canine K nine
named Midnight, and Midnight is being held as a hero
after finding a missing three year old boy.

Speaker 7 (01:15:15):
The three year old.

Speaker 6 (01:15:16):
Went wandering away from his home into this I guess
it's a wooded area near the home and crazy the
little boy just left walking around. This happened back in
October second of twenty twenty four. The police got a
nine to one one call. The panic family call, our
little three ye old son has gone from our yard.
We don't know where he is. They've responded, and the

(01:15:38):
department sent out their tracking team. This Deputy Ryan Martin,
he went out and he brought along his partner Midnight,
the K nine. As soon as Midnight got there, they
gave him a little clothing item. He started taking the sniff.
He went through the trail. Thirty minutes later he began
he found the child. Midnight led them almost and this

(01:16:00):
is the crazy part. It was almost half a mile
away from the residents. As soon as the little child
saw Midnight, reached up and tried to touch, Midnight was
all excited and happy. So there's another beautiful one where
we're going to say thank you to Midnight, who's a
black German shepherd trained in sent training and rescue operations.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
It's amazing. Well you did so good. And those were
such good stories.

Speaker 6 (01:16:24):
I love those. I know they make me feel really
good because I.

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
All were together and Coda the dog went missing and
we had one a dog hunt. Oh yeah, do you
remember that? Oh yes, it was together. Who's our pop
culture crime expert. We were all hanging, we were in person.
This was like free show. He brought his dog, who

(01:16:52):
is Coda? Who's so beautiful, but he's like a little humid.
It's like a person.

Speaker 6 (01:16:56):
It's a big dog.

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
Yeah, it's like a huge wrestler in a was very
lean in me but in a dog outfit. Like he's
as big as it could be. And somehow he got loose. Yeah,
oh was beside.

Speaker 6 (01:17:11):
Himself, beside himself, but he got He went really far,
he didn't I remember, he went like miles.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
Remember Brian nat Miller and Doron went and our neighbor.
It was a whole dog caper. Then I felt like
it was so bonding. We all were like slightly traumatized
and out of breath and exhausted and grateful beyond measure.

Speaker 4 (01:17:34):
These canines, though, I mean, they are something I love
the videos of the canines retiring and they call in
like the last you know, I'm ten twenty or whatever.
They're leaving due to you for the day. And then
they they'll have like the police line a hallway and
the dog just kind of walks.

Speaker 2 (01:17:53):
It's just like like their last shift, right, you know
they're doing like everyone's clapping. Yes, how about then like
the dog? And I'm going to get this a little
bit wrong, and I don't think I'm exaggerating, Courtney body wrong.
So there was a dog that like traveled to a
different state his like his person went away, maybe went

(01:18:16):
to the hospital. I don't know why. They weren't like abandoned,
and the dog knew that there like family was somewhere
else and they traveled day and night, day and night
to get to their person. Does this ring a belt anybody?

Speaker 6 (01:18:32):
I've heard it like this? I don't know, but I've
heard these where there's a dog that's made its way
like miles away after the This.

Speaker 2 (01:18:41):
Is not Merley and me that was the worst. But no,
maybe it was. Well, the scent, it's the scent so much?

Speaker 7 (01:18:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
To me? Is all this dog talk making you consider
a dog? Oh? I definitely can. I don't know what
the dog type should be. You know, it's a new
world that I find myself in.

Speaker 6 (01:19:05):
Yeah, well, I think you I'm leaning towards it. And
I'm going to say, there are people out there who've
been listening and have opinions on what they think about
you getting a dog. Do you want to?

Speaker 7 (01:19:17):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:19:18):
Really?

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
Really? Yeah, Sarah got intended.

Speaker 7 (01:19:22):
Let's go, Hi, ladies.

Speaker 11 (01:19:24):
This is Renee from Orange County. I wanted to tell
you girls, I love listening to you every morning when
I'm getting ready for work, and I was hearing how
Stephanie is thinking.

Speaker 7 (01:19:35):
About a dog.

Speaker 11 (01:19:36):
I have the most ShoWest dog ever.

Speaker 4 (01:19:40):
He is a ship too.

Speaker 11 (01:19:41):
His name is Oliver, and he just stole my heart
after I lost my first dog that we had. So
get a dog. You will love that dog. It will
steal your heart. You guys, have a great night, and
I'm so happy that I get to listen to you guys.

Speaker 5 (01:20:00):
Love you, Thank you, and you and Oliver.

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
We're gonna have the best, great, great name. I think
because I'm in Tennessee now, I think I would have
to name it Dolly if it was stop it. Yeah,
and what is Billy Ray? Billy Ray. Yeah, and Billy
Billy Ray. Oh my good, I love it. Yes. I
worked on Nashville Star and Billy Ray was the host.
Oh you're kidding me? Yeah, I need a dog nad

(01:20:27):
Billy Ray, Billy Ray. And by the way, he shout
out to Billy Ray and yeah, or Dolly, but I
should suit. They have a cute.

Speaker 4 (01:20:36):
Little What about jelly Roll? Oh my god, that's a
great dog names alone, my love love him.

Speaker 2 (01:20:50):
Can I just pause on post Malone for one?

Speaker 5 (01:20:52):
So there was a song that post Malone had out.
It had to do with the weekend or jukeeo in
any case, Stephanie had an obsession. Was convincing me? I said, oh,
and and it was. It was on the radio all
the time. And I said, oh, I don't enjoy the song,
and she.

Speaker 2 (01:21:12):
Just, yes, you do because it is. She okay, how
do you listen? We're gonna have to come. We're just
gonna have to listen to it for the night time.
Then be like, how you like it a little? No,
because it felt as though our DNA was like dispersed.
I don't even remember the song, but yeah, sometimes he

(01:21:34):
speaks to my heart. So Dolly.

Speaker 6 (01:21:38):
And Jey, and.

Speaker 2 (01:21:42):
I like a lazy jelly Roll such a I'm lazy
even work, like the annoying dog at work. Bol jelly
Roll you can call him. You can call him j
R for short j R. Just like Dallas Dallas who
shot j R? Do you if my parents? But bulldogs

(01:22:03):
tend to be quite lazy.

Speaker 4 (01:22:05):
Pugs are too, so are probably they're just I could
just go to the shelter and just get yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 (01:22:11):
Of course, but like it would be good to go
to the shelter. Listen, can you imagine me at a shelter.
I'll be in eighteen thousand dogs. I'll have the whole
shelter in the house. This is not gonna I don't
even know that. I I think I have to have
like a little bit of a framework. Yeah, Dodger was
a surprise and he was so awesome and I love

(01:22:32):
him so much, But like I think I need to
have be intentional about the size. Of course, the type
by the way you tossed me in a shelter and good,
but you can honestly a finder or there's an other
place to have a canoe. I'm suddenly going to be
Noah's arc.

Speaker 6 (01:22:52):
I like that well, actually, I think we have to
talk back that ties in with something with shelter someone else.

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
My god, are we talking more about dogs?

Speaker 6 (01:22:59):
We got another dog one.

Speaker 9 (01:23:03):
Hey, guys, it's Alia NBC Canada. In regards to our
poor pets and getting over that. You know, you have
to give yourself the time that you need, but never
be afraid to love again, because there's always someone else
who needs love and who needs a home. I have
had many cats, a couple of which were diabetic with insulin,

(01:23:27):
and they give me so much more than I ever took.
I do know, however, that some people may feel like
they don't want to get another pet because they feel
guilty about replacing their previously loved for a baby. But
I just really love to tell people that it's never

(01:23:48):
replacement to give a home to another soul that really
needs you. That's all I wanted to say. Don't shop rescue,
that's all love you guys.

Speaker 4 (01:23:59):
Okay, So something and it kind of goes along with
this talkback. I lost my my soule dog. His name
was Ping okay, and I lost him on a Friday,
and I was devastated, obviously. I went to work Monday,
and a woman from our HR department called and she said, listen,
there's a guy, one of our employees. He's going to
prison and he has this little pug puppy and Ping

(01:24:20):
was a pug, okay, and he needs a home like today.
And I was like, I was like, listen, I can't.
I just lost Ping Friday, Like I'm devastated. Whatever. Well,
my mother also worked with me at the time. HR
called my mother and said, Deanna said no. My mother
called me and said, you better.

Speaker 2 (01:24:38):
Come home with that dog.

Speaker 4 (01:24:39):
And I'm telling you what, that's Lemon, my pug Lemon,
And it is the best thing I did, because I'm
telling you right now, Dodger wants you to love again
and give and give your love to save another dog.

Speaker 5 (01:24:54):
That's right, Yeah, give a dog a life, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:24:58):
And pillows and nact such a life right, so hard
to yeah, Okay, I'm feeling it. I'd love these I
feel so much. And I'd love you guys even discussing
it or even taking the time to make space for
this conversation or to leave a talk back. It's so
beautifully touching. And who knows, you know, Dolly or Billy Ray,

(01:25:22):
they're gonna jell you this is gonna be a group efforts,
so we're gonna get ourselves a mascot. Okay, all in
good time. I'm open to the convo and thank you
so much. We have Joseph Scott Morgan on Sunday, stay
with us True Crime tonight. We'll see you on Sunday.

Speaker 5 (01:25:39):
Love you, Ed,