Search for Madeleine McCann Reignites and Diddy Allegedly Paid for Silence - $100K and an NDA? + Parole Delay for Menendez Bros

Bryan Kohberger’s trial date is approaching, with the victim’s family launching efforts to attend the proceedings. The search for Madeleine McCann gains new momentum after nearly two decades, and missing person cases spark an intriguing listener call-in. Plus, we dive into Netflix’s newest true crime doc on the Tylenol Murders that’s got everyone talking. Tune in for all the details.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk
true crime all the time. It's Tuesday, June third, and
we have a stack night of headlines to get to tonight.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
The Menendez brothers.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
They were supposed to be re sentenced on Friday, Now
that's been postponed.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
Are they ever going to get released?

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Plus, we have breaking news in the Madeline McCain missing story,
her case is being reopened, and the latest in the
Idaho murder trial case. Some new developments there that we
will definitely unpack. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head U
Kat Studios where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries
and I get to do that with Courtney Armstrong, hour
producer and crime analyst.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Body move in. So, ladies, where should we begin?

Speaker 4 (01:00):
I'm going to be talking about the Menendez brothers, So
let's just start right. There's just as we know, the
Menenda's brothers have been granted basically a re sentencing, and
they were initially sentenced to life in prison without the
possibility of parole, and now they have been basically sentenced

(01:20):
to life in prison with the possibility of parole. Well,
the initial parole hearing was supposed to be on the
thirteenth of this month, so like in ten days all right, Well,
like late breaking news, it's been delayed now to August
twenty first. Wow, And apparently this delay comes because the
Governor of California withdrew his request for the parole board

(01:44):
to evaluate the brothers for clemency. So they were going
to be maybe possibly granted clemency, which is absolutely insane
to me that would even happen. But because this withdrawal happened,
the parole hearing now has to be moved to the
twenty five first.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Well, I have to jump in here, yeah, because listen,
the Menanda's brothers. If you don't know who they are,
they murdered their parents, they were sentenced to life, they
were separated for many many years, and now are being
housed together in prison. And then you know, very recently
there was a documentary and then there was a scripted
project about them that Ryan Murphy, he's the person who

(02:22):
does all those FX American horror story Touch Shows, and
they did this very popular, by the way, very popular
series about them. And in the documentary too, they presented
some new information, and that new information was that one
of the boys had proof of sexual abuse by his father,
which was ultimately what they believe was the cause and

(02:43):
the root of why they committed these murders against their parents.
This was back in Beverly Hills too. If you weren't
following it back then, it was breaking news everywhere. And
really because they were so affluent, they were influential, the
parents were at least and it was a gruesome crime.

Speaker 4 (03:00):
So Beverly Hills nine oh two and oh like the
whole like vibe back in southern California at the time
where I grew up there and I was living there
at the time. You know, we were watching OJ. This
is like the scenario that we're living in, right, OJ
gets out, Like, oh my god, OJ got out. And
then right after OJ, Menendez brothers went on trial, and

(03:21):
I feel like they needed a win, you know what
I mean, Like the DA needed this case. They were
on their backs, and so they excluded basically this evidence
that of this, you know, sexual abuse by the family
well the father, not the family, but the father, and
they're accusing the mother of basically knowing about it and
just trying turning her blind eye, and so that's you know,

(03:44):
why she was Also I'm going to say she was executed,
because that's really what it was.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
This was an execution, and it was specifically.

Speaker 5 (03:52):
Was shot point blank in the face. Not to be
so gruesome, but that was called out as just a
really big deal to write, that's next level.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
And it's pretty uncommon to murder your parents too. And
also the cover up. They went back to the real
world that was so haunting about this. They were young men,
they had the world ahead of them, and after these murders,
you know, they played very innocent and kind of they
got insurance money allegedly, and they were buying rolexes and
they kind of went back to the real world, so
it seemed. And now we're finding out there is some

(04:23):
evidence to suggest that their story was accurate. I'm not
debating that whatsoever. And also a former member from the
band Menudo, do you remember them, Yeah, so one of
them getting forward because the murdered dad he was a
big producer in the music industry and he was a
manager or producer of this young man who now claims

(04:43):
that he was also sexually abused by him. You know,
that's pretty telling. And then also there was a letter
allegedly by Lyle, the older brother, right, he's the one
that's bald now, that he had written to a cousin
many many, many many years ago prior to the murders,
basically saying that he was in this traumatic situation with
his father and being abused, and it was proof that

(05:05):
this was something that predated the murders, and therefore this
is the origin story for the why. And because of that,
if in fact they were tried, you know, air quotes
correctly back in the day, they would have probably been
tried for manslaughter, which would have had a lower sentence,
and in their case they weren't. That information wasn't allowed
in the second trial, so they got life. So this

(05:27):
is sort of a resentencing. And you know, listen, I
kind of remember this being back in November. Weren't they
going to be home by Thanksgiving? A course that's a lawyer.

Speaker 4 (05:36):
Well that's what the DA who basically was running for
reelection at the time in LA said that they might
be home by Thanksgiving. Well, he lost that election, and
the new DA was like, eh, I'm going to be
looking at this, and then Newsome stepped in with, well,
maybe we could do clemency, and I'm like, oh my god,
clemency we.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
Leady is a pardon right, just for clarity, So that
just basically means you get to you basically get to
go home. I think it's also worth noting just you know,
these two brothers now together. You know, by all accounts,
there's all these letters that the guards at their facility,
the prison guards, they're all saying what exemplary you know
inmates they've been, and they've been not only a blessing

(06:15):
to the system, but they've also really reformed themselves and
they're clearly not a danger to society.

Speaker 5 (06:20):
And they also helped reform others who are around them
and have really taken on like other prisoners under their wing.
So they have done well, which you know, if you
believe that prison should be a place to reform, then
right that helpful.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
I just feel like clemency is just going a little
bit too far. I mean, they did brutally let's be real,
and I'm not going to be graphic, but they did
brutally kill their parents.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
Yeah, it's super confusing.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, it's super confusing because again we all have empathy
for that, no question even that horrible abuse happened.

Speaker 4 (06:52):
But to get clemency for that, I think that's just
a little bit too much.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
Right, And that's why is their origin story? I you know,
listened up making an assertion here that if we if
we lined up all violent murderers behind bars, chances are
they have a terrible origin story that was maybe not
taken into account. Does everybody get resentence now or just cherry.

Speaker 4 (07:14):
That Ryan Murphy makes sexy scripted shows about on Netflix exactly,
And while that's lovely, is that fair?

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Is you know, just the question? I suppose.

Speaker 4 (07:25):
Meanwhile, the guy who or the woman who killed her
husband because he was abusing her is still rotting in
a prison in Stockton, Like what's it's just clemency to
me is just a step too far, parole, Okay, I
believe in rehabilitation. I don't think there's going to be
any like I don't think they're going to get out
and murder a bunch of people. I mean, this was

(07:45):
very targeted, it was very specific, right, But it's not
They're going to go on a murdering spree. So I
don't feel like the population is at risk or anything
like that. But like Clemency, I'm not on board with that.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
I think it goes back to what you said earlier.

Speaker 5 (07:59):
Body though about the back in the day when this
initially happened, it being politically motivated at that point. Well,
now because there was such an uprising because of Ryan Murphy,
because of the doc that.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
You know.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
I have no knowledge of this, but.

Speaker 5 (08:15):
It kind of seems like maybe didn't use think it
was a good look the governor of California at the time,
and maybe something was very shiny.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Of course, it got so much press, it was very popular,
It was very everybody was excited before the holidays. Gergs hit,
you know, the Menendez attorney. By the way, his daughter
is also the attorney in the Diddy trial.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
Fun fact. Oh, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
That interesting, right. It's a family affair. So Mark Gergos,
who represents the Menandez brothers. You know, he was very
public about it. They're going to be home for Thanksgiving.
And by the way, the Menendez mom and dad have siblings,
and those siblings really do support the release of these
even despite the fact that they were killed by the

(08:56):
night Boys.

Speaker 3 (08:57):
They do, they do support it.

Speaker 5 (08:58):
And guys, I'm actually I'm getting a signal from Adam
that we have a talkback.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
Can you love it? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (09:05):
Is this a really official talkback?

Speaker 4 (09:07):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (09:07):
All right, let's can we hear it.

Speaker 6 (09:10):
I just want to say I'm listening all the way
in Pennsylvania and I am so excited to hear you
guys chatting it up tonight on the podcast. I've set
you guys as a preset on my channel and I'll
be listening every single night. Thank you, guys. Have a
great night.

Speaker 4 (09:29):
Oh my gosh. Well I've been making I've been making
all these social media posts about talkbacks and you know,
setting us as a preset, so hopefully, hopefully it's making
an impact.

Speaker 5 (09:38):
Yeah, complain what that process is. Yeah, So this is
first of all, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
That was so lovely.

Speaker 5 (09:44):
But you can always send us a talkback message when
you're listening. Just use the iHeartRadio app and click on
the microphone.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
It's the icon in the top right corner.

Speaker 5 (09:54):
And you can also set the True Crimes Night podcast
as a preset so you don't miss any of the show.
So that's just a little microphone up right.

Speaker 3 (10:01):
That's so fun.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Everybody, please like jump into this conversation. You know, the
funny thing about the menandas where my brain goes. First
of all, I think if you're in prison for life,
you have to have a moment of acceptance, right, just
to survive it. You know, we're told we've seen Shawshank
redemption right right. I hope rut also the hope of
being able to walk out those doors. I would imagine
the last mile of the marathon is the hardest, not

(10:26):
that I would know, But it's interesting. They've had a
lot of love behind bars, you know, Lyle. I think
it's Lyle right. He is again the one that is
currently in his current picture. He's the bald one.

Speaker 3 (10:36):
You know.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
He's been married, I believe twice, and his second wife
if they were married for like twenty one years, she
became a lawyer, Rebecca, so that she could support him
and honestly like stand by him. And even though they
are no longer together, she's a steadfast supporter. Interesting, that's amazing.
Not conjugal visits, there's zero conjugal visits, but they've you know,

(10:58):
they have a lot of relationships.

Speaker 4 (11:00):
Well, speaking of like support, and we were talking about prior.
We were talking about how the family, even the family
of the murdered parents, really support them getting out. And
the brother's cousin, Anna Maria Barlot, made a TikTok video
and it popped up on my for you page because
I'm in that algorithm, and she made a video and

(11:21):
she said, actually, you know, it's disappointing that the parole
hearing has been moved. It's like five weeks and this
is probably going to be in the most excruciating five
weeks right of you know, they've been in prison for
a really long time. But she did say that it's
not a she said, I'm gonna quote, this is not
a bad thing. Most people prepare for parole for a year.

(11:42):
The more time that they have to prepare, the better.
So the family is taking the approach that, yeah, it's
disappointing that we're not going to see them, you know,
in ten days, but in the long run, it's probably
for the best that they have more time to prepare.
You know, the prison guards are all writing letters saying
what exemplary prisoners they are. You know, they've created all

(12:05):
these programs inside the prison, Like Courtney was saying, and
they are really be like the prisoners are really benefiting
from them, like they're taking care of the elderly prisoners,
and they've really it seems to be that they've really rehabilitated.
And that's wonderful if true, I mean phenomenal of true.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
Very lucky together that they've been able to be together
too years.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
That's right.

Speaker 5 (12:29):
We'll be bringing you up to speed on the Brian
Koberger murder trial when we come back, and we're going
to have a new plea from the victims' families. We're
also going to be discussing the horrific serial killer BTK
later in the show. At eleven, we're talking about today
what happened in the Diddy trial, and we're here from
you True Crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
We have so many cases to get through tonight because
there were there's huge developments in the courtroom today in
the Diddy case, so we'll we'll talk more about that
later and then now, of course we need to talk
about the Brian Coberger Idaho college murders trial, because again
there's new developments every single day, it seems, and this
is really becoming incredibly hard, as you could imagine, insult

(13:18):
to injury for the families of the victims. Every change,
every delay, it affects the victims' families. So, Courtney, this
is so close to your heart. I know, we make
the podcast together. I'm making the doc now for Peacock
at KT Studios. So take it away.

Speaker 5 (13:32):
Where should we start, Well, let's start with the families,
as you mentioned, because with all of these delays, it
has been excruciating. And that's something that happened today. It
just came out that some of the victims' family members
are launching a go fundme to attend this trial because
the trial venue moved. Everyone is located in a town

(13:53):
called Moscow, Idaho, and it is moving far away and
they need some help to be there.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
Well, they touch pay for everything, hotels. I mean, this
is supposed to be months.

Speaker 4 (14:06):
It could be months, three months, they're expected three months,
and they're going to be out of work, you know.
I mean, this is financially potentially devastating for anyone exactly,
and it really does underscore the importance of or how
much it affects things when trials are moved.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Right, So this was in Moscow, to your point, now
that it's in Boise, you know, some of the family
members live in Washington, you know, or they're six or
seven hours away, so it's a hotel night. They can't
just commute, and that's such a burden because of course,
if you're a child has been through it, you think
you don't want to be there in the front row
every single day. That could be really a dead end financially.

Speaker 5 (14:44):
So we are very close to this case and obviously
pretty passionate about it for anyone who's not super conversant.
Brian Koberger is a former PhD student in criminology of
all things. He has been accused in is awaiting trial
in the face stabbing of four University of Idaho students.
This happened in November of twenty twenty two. The trial

(15:07):
is slated to be August eleventh, although that may change
yet again.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
I think it will. Oh, don't say that. I think
it will. So we stop saying that.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
Everybody's stop delete, delete, delete.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
I don't think we should be living in denial. Don't forget.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
It's also so many things in their school back in session,
and it just affects everybody wants to be there to
support their kids, you know. It's Madison Mogan and Ethan
Chapin and Kayleie Gonzalvez and Xana Cernudle like they just
become a footnote so quickly. Sorry, I'm getting like I'm
starting to sweat through my shirt already.

Speaker 5 (15:40):
Now about this, we're all, yeah, yeah, here's what we know.
Here's what we know right now. Jury selection is slated
to begin July thirtieth, and the trial has taking place
in Ada County at the Ada County.

Speaker 3 (15:54):
Courthouse in Boise.

Speaker 5 (15:56):
As you said, Stephanie, and if you guys remember, the
reason that the trial was moved from Moscow, Idaho, where
the victims lived, where the crime happened, was that it
was changed due to concerns about Brian Colberger, the accused,
his ability to get a fair trial there, so hence
the movement. And here's what else we know. As of today,

(16:17):
the jury will not be sequestered, although that's been open
as an option. The trial is expected. I'm very surprised
by this. To be nationally televised and to run Monday
through Friday for about three months.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
I think it's great. I think it's great. It has
to be tell, it has to be televised, just shed
as much light.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, and you know what I think. I mean, don't
get me started.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
I don't want to grandstand, but I think courtroom should
have televisions in them. And I think you don't know
the system until you're observing it. It's so easy to
judge it from the you know, from the sidebar, and
be like, oh, why did they do that, or the
judge was wrong, or the law enforcement of the wrong thing,
or that one's innocent. Yeah, until you're actually faced with
the actual information that is granted and given and presented.

Speaker 3 (17:02):
That's the process.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
And I think it's really important for us to see it.

Speaker 5 (17:05):
Absolutely, and so so many people have seen so much,
not what has been presented in court, but what has
been presented by the media, including dateline.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
Right.

Speaker 4 (17:19):
Yeah, the date lining is huge and we're going to
get to that. What do you think is coming up
for Brian? Do you think that he's going to get
his continuance granted?

Speaker 5 (17:28):
I tell you what I do. I do think that
they could. Yes, well, because listen, this date line was huge.
It wasn't just oh here is more of what has
been known publicly. This included people violating the gag order
in the case. And by people I mean people who
are investigating or the prosecution or someone else on the inside.

(17:51):
We do not know right in this moment who it is.
Anybody it could be. It could be anybody, that's right.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
I think we need to know who that person is
because that's a real miscarriage of justice for the families,
of course. And also keep in mind for Brian Coburger,
he claims his innocence. If he's actually sitting behind bars,
rotting away for a crime he didn't commit and he's
being targeted as he claims he is, then you know,
again like get the boy home and really minds who

(18:16):
actually did it?

Speaker 4 (18:17):
Right?

Speaker 2 (18:17):
So listen, If he did this, then he is in
fact the.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
Real life Dexter.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
And I just wait a minute, come, Well, though Dexter killed,
Dexter killed bad people.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
These were like angels, you know. I know, I don't
mean that.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
I just the Dexter connection is more of like a
man in plain sights who's educated and has means and
could do many things with his life, and in fact
was supposed to become, you know, a PhD in criminology
and all these wonderful things ahead. How would you waste
it on something so destructive? I guess that's why we're

(18:50):
all so interested and curious about this case.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
Right, that's right?

Speaker 5 (18:53):
And you know you say he has the makings of
a great life or had and who am I?

Speaker 3 (18:58):
Who knows right? And who knows?

Speaker 5 (19:00):
The trial has not happened, but it seems like a
lot of what he was spending his time on, if
we believe is true, what was presented in dateline, and
they're pretty unimpeachable.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
You know.

Speaker 5 (19:12):
He also spent a lot of time kind of creepily
taking screenshots of female students that were around, including some
who are friends of the murdered students.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
Which is jaw dropping because up until now, up until
this leak, there really hasn't been a known connection between
Brian Coberger, the accused, and the victims. Just as a reminder,
the four victims all lived together with two additional roommates
who think God survived and you know, they were taken
in one night, major overkill, but there doesn't seem to

(19:44):
be a known friendship, or it's on an ex, there's
no insurance claim. It's not revenge. You know, it seems
sort of like a thrill kill, which is why this
case is so incredibly scary, because you know, this could
be the guy sitting next to you at the airport, right,
he's just like sheep in wolf's clothing. He doesn't look
like he's, you know, coming out of a scary movie,

(20:04):
and he's just ridinary.

Speaker 4 (20:07):
Can I can I talk about something that maybe people
who don't follow this as closely as we do maybe
don't know. So we've talked about this last night, but
I've timelined the dateline leaks, so I listen. I watched
the date Line show twelve times.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
I love that about you so much, and I.

Speaker 4 (20:27):
Made a spreadsheet of all the weeks we should play
lotto together, we should and I timelined all the leaks,
and you know the date and what it was, and
there were there's thirty seven. There were thirty five that
I missed to Oh my gosh. So there's thirty seven
different line items and the first one is on July ninth,
he went to this pool party at the grove right. Well,

(20:48):
if you don't follow the case very closely, you might
not realize July ninth is also the same day he
showed up within range of that home in Moscow on
King Road.

Speaker 3 (20:59):
So where does the brain go with that?

Speaker 2 (21:01):
So, like my brain go pick at that thread for
a second, because that is a really big ticket item
that can be kind of imagined a few different ways.

Speaker 4 (21:09):
Right, So I kind of think that either one of
the girls was there at the pool party, or they
dropped somebody off or picked somebody up and he followed them.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, that's what I think too. You know, listen, it's
that scary tale. If in fact this is accurate, this
is the person that's like lurking in the street light
watching the party go.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
Let's talk about that real quick.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
I think there's I think there's some things that maybe
we can say we don't know that are true about
the dateline episode. But one thing that we can say
that we kind of believe is true is this pool party.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
Because there's witnesses that we've interviewed your interview.

Speaker 4 (21:43):
Right, Okay, great, So there's many witnesses. There wasn't just
like one person. There were many witnesses that talked to
him there. One girl gave him her number, her number,
so he was absolutely so for sure that happened.

Speaker 5 (21:58):
Right, And even if none of the victims were there
in any capacity dropping someone off, it honestly could have
been as easy as he met someone. It has been
proven he was at that party by you know, many
people who've spoken about it. He could have gotten an
instagram from someone and then quickly found Really any one
of the victims. I'm not pretending to be inside of

(22:18):
Brian Coberger's or anyone else's brain, but something clicked in
and around that time that really seemed like it was
a fixation because the cell records that were revealed in
the State Line special it showed that he was within
just one hundred meters of the victim's house twenty three
times in just the few months from July and then

(22:40):
ending in November. The murders and this house. It was
not next to sort of a Walmart or any place.
It was not a big street. It was a whole decide.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
You have to be very intentional, and look, this case
also is just like you know, this is a cautionary
tale right to all of us, because.

Speaker 3 (22:56):
It was a party house.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
It was like a social house, and like every one
of us, we go and post things online and in
the background you can see the windows and the doors
and the license plate in the lock, and sometimes our
social media becomes a blueprint. And I think that's a
bit of a takeaway because it does seem like there
might be stranger danger.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
You know, and as somebody who has done that kind
of thing on social media to find people, I would
absolutely be very careful about your privacy settings things like that.
And listen, this is definitely not a victim blame thing
I want course of course, you know, I absolutely I'm
a girls girl, you know, I want women to be
protected and will not just be really careful about things
that you're posting online. We're gonna be back. We're gonna

(23:36):
be talking about another alleged killer, maybe that has a
connection to Brian Coberger t K.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
Yeah, I can't get enough at BTK right.

Speaker 4 (23:44):
And later in the show at eleven, we're gonna be
talking about a Georgia man's wife who was murdered. Well
now he's getting charged with it. Stick with us here
True Crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
We have a lot to get to tonight. Still the
Diddy trial there was a big eruption in court today,
and then also the Madison McCain she is potentially we
might potentially solve this.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
I'm left out of my seat when I saw the headline.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
I kind of can't believe it. I mean, it's been
so many years in the making. So if you haven't
been following the Madeline McCain story, you know, more on
that to come. Yeah, you know, but first we want
to kind of dig into a case that has some
crossover to the Brian Coburger case that we were just
covering in the last act bt K, which stands for
Buying Torture Kill, arguably the scariest of all the serial

(24:41):
killers of all time. Body, I know this is a
personal expertise area for you.

Speaker 3 (24:47):
So do you want to get us started? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (24:49):
So, yeah, like you said, we want to talk about
this because you know, we were just talking about Brian
Kolberger and if you know me, I eat, sleep, and breathe, Idaho,
Like I'm constantly thinking about it and whatnot. And you know,
in watching the Dateline episode that we just talked about
in the last segment, we learned that through the date
Line leaks that Brian Coberger was kind of like obsessively

(25:12):
looking for things of like Ted Bundy, right, And there's
been a lot of talk about the crossover between Ted
Bundy and Brian Coberger, specifically you know, the kyomega and
the Brian Coberger might have attacked his victims because they
were in their sorority, you know all that. Well, there's
also connections to well, we think that there's connections to

(25:34):
BTK as well, and specifically one of them being that
Brian Coberger's professor at the Sales is Katherine Ramsland, who,
by the way, had a close relationship with BTK, whose
real name is Dennis Raider. She basically wrote the book
on BTK, like Ter Turely wrote the book on BTK.
And so Brian Coberger had a relationship, of course with

(25:57):
Catherine because she was his professor, and he spent quite
a bit of time with her, and I would I'm
imagining and I don't know, but I'm imagining he probably
asked her tons of questions about people like BTK. Additionally,
btk's first victims were four people, and you know, there's
been a lot of talk and a lot of chatter

(26:18):
about how could somebody doing something like this kill four
people very quickly? And I always say BTK like.

Speaker 3 (26:24):
That is that? That is the answer. That is the
answer usual.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
It's very go from zero to you know, sixties And
I'm not saying this to be glib, but to go
from a regular, you know, pedestrian, regular person to killing
four people in one night and then having enough emotional
regulation to go back to your daily life the next day.
That's rare, Right is the answer, But there's not any

(26:50):
other examples.

Speaker 4 (26:52):
I don't know if he is the answer. It's just
like theory and chatter. Right, well, it's an example.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
If right, it is an example.

Speaker 4 (26:59):
So well we think, right, there's a lot of murders
out there that have been maybe BTK has been suspected of,
but not you know, convicted of. He's he basically has
been convicted of ten murders from nineteen seventy four to
nineteen ninety one. I mean, this was decades long, and
there were times when BTK took you know, there's a
cooling off period for serial killers.

Speaker 3 (27:21):
Right.

Speaker 4 (27:22):
A serial killer, if you don't know, LA find is
defined as somebody that kills three or more people and
they have a period of cooling off in between those murders. Okay,
And so basically the idea is is that they get
an urge, they satisfy that urge, and it's you know,
it's satiated for a little while, and then they have

(27:43):
the urge again and they need to you know, recommit
those murders. They need to recommit that act to feel
satiated again. So that's basically what a serial killer is. Well,
BTK had cooling off periods spanning years. And if you
don't know anything about bt I'm gonna tell you just
a little bit about it. He basically was taunting, basically

(28:06):
taunting Kansas with these murders. He would write letters to
the media, he would write letters to the cops, and
you would say things like, if you don't publish this,
I'm going to kill again. And of course, you know,
the media is wrangling with what to do, like if
because if they published this, they're basically granting this killer's

(28:26):
wishes and nobody wants to do that. But if they don't,
now they're potentially responsible for you know, Becky down the
street getting murdered.

Speaker 3 (28:34):
Oh man, what a quandary.

Speaker 5 (28:36):
And what I think is absolutely the most terrifying is
what Dennis Rader was doing during those times, because he
seemed like anyone you would have at your back backyard
barbecue or who'd oh yeah he would your kids.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
Yeah, he was a great dad. He was like a
family man. Yeah he was.

Speaker 4 (28:54):
He was a boy scout leader. I mean he was
he was literally the epitome of the American Dad. I mean,
you know, it's it's terrifying. I wanted to talk to
you guys a little bit more about some of the similarities.
If that's okay, let's we have between btc's my favorite topic,
dialis in coach dialis well. And you know what, if
you guys, if you guys out there who know of

(29:16):
any more that we missed, give us a call eight
eight eight thirty one crime.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
I want to talk to you. Listen.

Speaker 4 (29:21):
I could talk to you guys about this all the time.

Speaker 3 (29:25):
I want to hear for you. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:27):
So both BTK, BTK and Brian Coberger studied in the
criminal field.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
Did you guys know that?

Speaker 4 (29:33):
So we know Brian Coberger was going first PhD in criminology.
But Raider, did you guys know Dennis Rayder BTK had
an associates degree in criminal justice?

Speaker 3 (29:42):
Crazy? Right?

Speaker 5 (29:43):
Well, you know we actually and then I want you
to continue because this is not knowledge that everyone carries
in their heads. But Stephanie and I in doing the
in doing the Idaho Massacre podcast, we actually spoke to
an expert named Scott bond Oh. I love him and
he has actually incredible insights on b GK and Coburger

(30:05):
as well.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
We should have him on, but he'd be great.

Speaker 5 (30:09):
But now you need to set the table and walk
us through the similar Okay, yes.

Speaker 4 (30:16):
Well now I feel like imposter syndrome. After you guys
talked to Scott Bonders, I mean.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
It's all down from here, right yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:23):
Well, and both both seeming, you know, had very normal lives,
right they, like we said, Dennis Rader was you know,
American dad, and Brian Coberger was like this really studious
guy who for the most part, from what we understand,
kind of was hard but kept to himself. You know,
he was seemingly a law abiding citizen. He was quiet,

(30:44):
he was intelligent, He was a teaching assistant. While he
was committing you know.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
This murder. He was alleged.

Speaker 4 (30:52):
Okay, listen, you're right allegedly he has been. He has
not been convicted of this. In my mind he has,
but not in reality. I mean, you know, but both
were perceived as being kind of socially awkward and public.
I mean, and listen, that is not for me. That
is not like a bad thing. I'm super socially awkward,
Like people come up to me I'm like, oh, you know, so,

(31:15):
I mean I get it. Both and again I said
this before, but both allegedly killed four people during their
first murder first time.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah, and then went back to their regular lives, which
is I guess why we're all so crazy about serial killers?

Speaker 3 (31:30):
How does that happen?

Speaker 4 (31:31):
How does And that's the thing, like I kind of
needed to listen. I needed to like do some like
self reflection and figure out why I'm so interested in
the subject. And I learned this is kind of interesting
for everyone. I think women specifically, right, like you would
a crime con. It's women everywhere. There's hardly any men

(31:51):
are men and it's kind of rare, right you've seen yeah,
all women. Well, it's it's an evolutional thing. It's like, so,
as women, we need to know what are what is
dangerous for us, of course, and that's why typically women
are fascinated by this and maybe and maybe that's why.

(32:12):
Maybe that's one reason I'm interested in it. But I
just thought that was kind of an interesting little little tidbit.
But yeah, no, BTK and Brian Coberger definitely have a connection.
Dateline didn't have any information to share with us, you know,
in the program about you know, Brian Coberger searching for
BTK things. But here's what I think. Maybe he didn't

(32:33):
have to because he learned all he needed to from
his professor.

Speaker 3 (32:36):
Okay, but.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
Now that advocate literally Devil's advocate. Just you know, again,
my personal feelings do not count in this. I'm just
grateful not to be a juror on this death sentence
trial where the death sentence is by firing squad. Just FYI,
he's studying criminology, So is it that far fetched? I mean,
we all work in crime. Like if you looked at
any of our search engines, like please, it looks like

(33:00):
complete you know, everything we've talked about tonight where track
is really weird if taken out of context. Right, So
if I'm doing, you know, searches on BTK, what does
that say? So I just feel like he was a
criminology PhD student. Why would he not have ted Bundy
in his you know, Google search or why would he
not have been studying BTK when his professor, you know,

(33:25):
is the person?

Speaker 3 (33:26):
So I get it.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
It's it's not a great look the optics or certainly
very creepy. But on the other side of that is
does that make him a perfect target.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
I'm not saying he is.

Speaker 4 (33:36):
No, I'm one hundred percent in agreees with you. When
I saw the dateline leaks, I was like, Okay, that's
not for me. The Ted, the searching for Ted Bundy
and watching you know, YouTube channels about Ted Bundy was
not a red flag for me. In my timeline that
I made of all the dateline leaks, I had put
like little flags, like literally little red flags, and those
Google searches did not now listen.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
The drugged porn, the drug porn.

Speaker 4 (33:59):
Now listen, and that that's another connection to BTK. BTK
liked subdued and helpless women.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
That were drugged.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, Brian Coberger allegedly, according to the League, was also
searching for pornography with people.

Speaker 3 (34:12):
Who were drugged.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Right, we'd really love to hear from you, So call
us at eight eight eight three to one Crime and
again just jump in on the conversation because that's the
whole point of this is, we really do want to
hear from you, and then listen. Later in the show,
we're also going to be talking about Diddy. Also, the
new developments in the Madeline McCain trial. It's being reopened
this case is actually being reopened once and for all.

(34:34):
And Courtney, where would you like to take this?

Speaker 5 (34:36):
I think on the Madeline McCain because that really just
seeing that little girl's picture, it really invigorated my heart.
People may remember this was eighteen years ago and a British,
a lovely British family was on vacation in Portugal with
their toddler who went missing and was never found and
there has been pictures and.

Speaker 3 (34:57):
Pictures of her over the year.

Speaker 5 (35:00):
Well, just today a new search was announced and police
are back at it. It hasn't been said exactly what
started them to do the search, but there were about
twenty five investigators who were focusing on an area around
the cottage that was once used by the main suspect,
a German Man named Christian Bruckner. So there's that he's

(35:22):
been in the mix for a while now, yes, exactly,
and this you know, we'll be focusing a lot more
on this, but we do know. Again, twenty five investigators.
I think they're slated to be there for five days
or something, and they have they have equipment that goes
way down into the ground, so they're searching around sort

(35:43):
of wells and other underground infrastructure of where he lived.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Body, I feel like you had some development and interesting
developments about you know, some dog or something in the backyard, right, oh.

Speaker 3 (35:54):
Always remembering.

Speaker 4 (35:55):
Yeah, So in two thousand and sixty, so Christian has
been a suspect. You losen your But he lived in
Portugal as well, in the Algarves where they were on vacation,
and he was kind of like a maintenance guy and
he lived he kind of couchsurfed and he lived in
a camper at times, and he lived in this cottage,
like Courtney was saying, well, back in Germany, they you know,

(36:19):
they were suspecting him because he got basically kind of
confessed to an informant that is, their identities protected. And
when they got the search warrant and went to the home,
of course, they were searching everything and they found a
hard drive buried underneath his pet dog where he buried
his dog. And this hard drive was full of really

(36:42):
really damning evidence. There was a Skype chat log where
he said he wanted to basically kidnap a little girl
and spend some time with her.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
And there was.

Speaker 4 (36:52):
Also evidence on this hard drive that led investigators to
believe that Madeline McCann has passed. Now they haven't told
us what that is. We don't know what that evidence is.
This parents, Yeah, and you know those parents were blamed.
They were blamed and they were vilified, villified, and you know,
go listen, that's part of the process, right your child

(37:13):
goes missing, your you know, spouse is you know, murdered.
Of course you're a suspect. But they really went through it.
And also the siblings. She was in the same room
with her siblings or brother and his sister when she
went missing, So how harrowing that must be for.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
Them in the years thereafter.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
We're going to be following this for a while obviously
because this is a case that will be evolving, so
definitely we'll keep you posted as things, you know, pop up,
and you know, listen, we want to talk about the
Ditty case also later in the show, because there was
Gangbusters today in the trial against Diddy, and also we're
going to start our very first official missing person's case also,
so maybe this can actually lead to something positive. So

(37:53):
more on that to come. If you'd like to call
us eight eight eight three to one Crime. This is
True Crime Tonight, where we talk true crime all the time,
we're going to be looking at the Shenanigans happening today
in the courtroom again with Diddy.

Speaker 3 (38:13):
So before we.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Get to that, we actually have several calls that seem
to be blowing up right now.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
So Court, do you want to go to our first caller.
I'd love to.

Speaker 5 (38:22):
We have Jessica on the line, I believe, asking about
Brian Colberger.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
Jessica, Hi, Jessica, hie.

Speaker 7 (38:29):
Thanks for so much for having me.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
Of course, we're so happy you're here.

Speaker 7 (38:33):
So my question is, for everything that's public right now
as far as evidence, what do you guys think is
the most compelling and also, on the contrary, the least
compelling for evidence right now?

Speaker 4 (38:47):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (38:47):
Great, great question.

Speaker 5 (38:49):
Yeah, this is court Courtney. Excuse me. Okay, I have
two words for my most compelling and that is knife sheath.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
Mine is similar.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
And again I'm the sucker of the group and I
feel like I'm pretty goible. So I've been holding out
for a really long time. The fact that he has
a record of purchasing that very specific knife that you know,
it's not a common knife that you just buy for
the fun of it. You're not making stakes at home.
So if in fact, this is accurate, and there was

(39:22):
a search and he actually purchased that, you know, that knife,
That to me is very problematic.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
Outside of that.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
I think everything else can really be explained away with
a great lawyer, and that I think we'll see Ann
Taylor get to.

Speaker 4 (39:36):
Yeah, I would say also me as well as probably
the knife sheath and the DNA that's on the nice
sheet specifically. That's why I think the knife sheath is
so compelling. The least compelling evidence, in my opinion, is
probably the visits to the house, the twenty three visits
to the house, because I think it's reasonable to say

(39:57):
as a defense attorney like he was actually just set
the coffee shop which is within distance of that or whatever,
you know, they would say. But that's probably what I
would say is the least compelling and the most compelling, you.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Know, and to that point, you know, we kind of
went down this rabbit hole a little bit. Also, like,
for example, if I order Uber or uber eats, it
seems to show right up right. It's like, oh my god,
Uber eats is under my desk right now. It seems
like you can track it on your phone so closely.
And a lot of this you know, cell phone stuff
is really showing a bit of an orbit, right, it's
a radius, it's not necessarily as exact, and I think

(40:33):
I think that's going to get really dissected in the courtroom,
and frankly should.

Speaker 5 (40:39):
And I have my lease this is Courtney again, Jessica.
My least compelling and I'm probably about to get backlash
is what appeared on dateline. And that's the porn searches. Oh,
Brian Coburgers, and people have a lot to say about
that body, I know you specifically do.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
Yeah, I think that's pretty compelling.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
It's pretty compelling that he was seeking out pornography where
the participants were being drugged.

Speaker 3 (41:04):
You know that.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
I don't think that's as you know, I don't. Maybe
I'm I also am the most darkiest person. I guess
it seems sort of not maybe I'm too vanilla, but
that seems that seems kind of dangerous.

Speaker 4 (41:16):
Yeah, well, thank you, Jessica. We really appreciate you calling in.
Hopefully we answered your question. We have another caller, hy Jessica.
We have Indie Hided.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
Hello, best name ever.

Speaker 8 (41:30):
Thank you than what you guys doing?

Speaker 2 (41:32):
Hi, thanks for joining us. What's your question?

Speaker 8 (41:35):
Yeah, so I had it's almost a two parters. So recently,
Judge Hitler was in a hearing and he brought up,
you know, bringing in the knife for the trial. Now,
with that being said, there was a lot of rumors
going around, you know, did they find the knife? Did
they not find the knife? And so the second part is,
even if even if they did find the knife, do
you think that it would be a stronger case just

(41:56):
because the case against Brian Coberger right now is so
strong so much.

Speaker 4 (42:01):
I've been thinking about that a lot. It's a great question.
And yeah, that's a really good question. I've been thinking
about this a lot because we do kind of think
that it's possible they found the knife, and I think
it could be important, but it also could not if
I think it really depends on how they found it. Right, So,
if they found the knife because of they were retracing

(42:22):
Brian Coberger steps through forensic analysis of his phone, let's say,
or they have him on surveillance and you know they
followed him and that's how they found the knife, then
I think it's going to be incredibly damning, right, like
you led us to the weapon. However, if they just
found the knife, like by chance, like maybe dredging the river,

(42:42):
let's say, or you know, somebody found a burn pile
somewhere and they find the knife. I think the knife
would be clean, right, Like, I don't think there's going
to be a lot of forensic evidence on it, and
then I don't think it would be compelling. So I
think it's really going to depend on how they found it.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
But like, why why would he if he's such a
smarty pants and he's a PhD student and he's studying criminology,
why is he being so sloppy? I mean even I
know and I watch law in order to you know,
your cell phone is a tracker. You know, like leave
your phone at home if you're going to go and
do something. You know the basics.

Speaker 4 (43:16):
Yeah, and you're right, I mean you have to be
an idiot, right, But remember what Cheryl McCullum said, who
is the forensic and you know, an expert in forensics?
She said, just because you have a cookbook and you
can read a cookbook, doesn't mean you know how to cook.
Once you're doing something and you're like panicked and you're
adrenalinees going and you know, common sense goes out the window, right, yes,

(43:37):
remember falling in love and how that feeling is and
you lose all common sense.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
I've done it.

Speaker 4 (43:43):
Yes, you know, I feel like that's probably the feeling
that these people get from committing these acts, euphoria that
makes you insane.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
So true, Indy, that was such a great question.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
Thank you so much for joining us, and please call
back again this four Who are a piece that Indy
was asking about, or you know that we were just
talking about. You know, we had interviewed several people, but
one person in particular on the podcast that was a
former student of his that said that he appeared much
happier after the after the killings than he was before,

(44:17):
meaning as a as a teacher, he was always redlining
things and was sort of kind of difficult and seemed
to be a little air quotes grumpy. And then in
the days after the murders, everything was much more high fives,
and you know, she was getting better grades and he
still graded everything and there were still red lines everywhere,

(44:38):
but it was all very happy. And that can be
interpreted as two ways. Either that's an endorphins release and
he's genuinely happier after such a terrible event, or it
was just myals, and you know that was something that
is just either circumstantial or really compelling.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
I think that's pretty accurate what happens in the trial.

Speaker 5 (45:02):
Speaking of trials, Stephanie, I think you were pretty excited
about what's doing with Ditty in his trial.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
Well, I feel like the Didy trial every single day
is frankly unbelievable because you know, today his former you know,
it wasn't the security guard for Ditty. It was at
the Intercontinental Hotel where we've seen this video that CNN
released of Ditty and his now ex girlfriend Cassie Ventura.

(45:31):
She was allegedly, you know, trying to escape him from
a hotel room and she was like at the if
you haven't seen this video, you know, we'll put it
in our social you know, it's it's harrowing and trigger
alert please. But she's basically trying to, you know, get
in the elevator. She's like pushing the door and trying
to escape, and then Didy rolls around the corner, you know,

(45:52):
holding a towel with one hand and then just.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
Beats her up.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
And we're finding out now that that footage never saw
the light of day because Diddy paid off security to
make that go away. So fifty thousand dollars and that's
why this whoop disappeared. And this first of all, this
man who took the stand gets immunity, and that bums
me out a little bit too, because it's so gross.

(46:17):
You know, you know somebody is being victimized. You know,
this woman's life is in danger, and here you are
taking fifty thousand dollars for it.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
You know.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Thankfully now he's come forward, but it's pretty explosive testimony
because again it speaks to the fact that the system
was rigged against her. Everyone's saying, oh, she was consenting
and it was a consensual relationship. What was she supposed
to do? There's no place to go. The cops are
being bought off, security is being bought off, the bodyguards
are managing your time allegedly, there's a tracker in your car.

(46:47):
Your parents are being threatened. Their lives and their livelihoods
are being threatened. Your music career is out the window.
All of your friends in your circle are also being threatened.
What would people perfer for she do? And I honestly
want an answer for that. I would love to hear
from from you guys too.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
Tell us.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
What in this situation? What is somebody supposed to do?
How do you get out? And how is that ever
consensual when there isn't really an option?

Speaker 4 (47:15):
Right?

Speaker 5 (47:16):
Ut and free aspect being controlled in your life and
your family's lives and your professional life.

Speaker 3 (47:22):
Yeah, you can't trust anybody. Yeah, it's well, this child,
well they isolate them on purpose.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
Well that's a cycle, you know. Listen, this is like,
you know, the story as old as time. Right, let's
isolate and then you know, control their environment and suddenly
you know you're embarrassed. So you don't really want to
hang with your friends anymore because you don't want to
be so vulnerable to let them know that this person
that everybody admires so much and likes so much is
actually a real monster. And that's very common, you know.

(47:49):
So you know, we hear this very very often, where
you know, victims get in over their heads and they
have compassion for their abuser. They just want the abuse
to stop.

Speaker 7 (47:58):
Right.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
So in a case like this, knowing that she could
have been helped a long time ago, and I'm sure
there's plenty of other tapes just like it, right, this
is all very choreographed and if everybody that he's paying
and is on her payroll is like, how do you
get out of that alive?

Speaker 3 (48:17):
And thank god she did.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
I think it's very poetic that Casey. You know, Cassie
Ventura had a baby. She gave birth to a son,
you know, thankfully healthy and all is well. Reports say,
you know, there is something sort of like a Greek
tragedy about, you know, giving birth to your very first son,
while you know, just before that on the stand, putting

(48:38):
away you know, potentially for life, you know, who was
once your love of your life.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
So complicated stuff.

Speaker 5 (48:46):
Yeah, it certainly is. But I mean that trial, the
Didy trial, do we know, I'm not sure of this.
Do we know how long it's expected to continue?

Speaker 3 (48:55):
Has that been talked about?

Speaker 2 (48:56):
Yeah, it seems like it's never ending because you know,
and listen, it's so divided, right, But it does seem
like they're very slowly being able to prove some of
this racketeering like we were learning about last night. It
does seem like there was a system, a ring of
sorts that was built in granted also drug fueled. Can
you imagine, and let's remember this is Cassie was nineteen

(49:18):
years old when she met him. Can you imagine you're
rolling in, You're invited to go to a fancy celebrities,
white party, and.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
It's all so hobnobby.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
He was like the face of black excellence, and you know,
all those wonderful things you get swept up into this.
He's seventeen years older and holds all the purse strings.
So you know, Frankly, my heart goes out to everybody
who's had to testify. It's really putting your life on
the line.

Speaker 4 (49:42):
Did you hear about the guy standing outside the courthouse
exposing me as real identity? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (49:48):
I mean that's terrible. It's disgusting. It's disgusting.

Speaker 4 (49:52):
He had a sign or something, and her real name
is like putting her in danger. Disgusting, Like if Diddy
is really like in charge of this big ring, this
rico racketeering ring, there's people out there who could find
Mia based on that and hurt her exactly exactly.

Speaker 3 (50:11):
Her danger upon danger. Courtney, does Georgia Killer tell.

Speaker 5 (50:15):
Us Yes, Okay, so this happened just a couple of
days ago. After almost twenty years, two decades, this man
was living as a freeman, most of it in Costa Rica.
Fifty eight year old John Whirrel was charged with the
murder of his wife, Doris, and that happened back in

(50:35):
two thousand and six.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
So wait, so he kills his wife in two thousand
and six and he's accused and was inhausted.

Speaker 5 (50:44):
No, he allegedly, but he has been arrested, but it was.
It's been an ongoing investigation for all of this time.
And John, we do know. We don't know if he
was murdered if excuse me, if he were murdered his wife,
but he's been arrested. But we do know that twenty

(51:04):
years ago he left Georgia and moved to Costa Rica
with his three children and his former live in nanny.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
Oh Deaula, Oh boy, Paula. I mean, Paula, how could
you do this to a woman.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
The nanny? It's I mean, it's just a it's like
a cliche.

Speaker 9 (51:24):
I know.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Goodness, I feel like, Costa Rica, can we just throw
away the care?

Speaker 4 (51:29):
Isn't that a red flag? I mean immediately to law enforcement?
Like for real, I mean, you can't get convicted for
running away with your nanny. It's got to be a
red flag, right.

Speaker 5 (51:38):
But listen, these Georgia investigators went far and above. Once
they did learn that Paula, the former nanny, was living
in Costa Rica, body, they did say that's a red flag.
They did, and yes, and they traveled all the way
to Costa Rica to question Paula and she did operate.

(52:01):
So with the information provided by Paula when they went
down there to go see her, along with some information
the local police had, it was finally finally enough to
arrest and charge Dennis.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
And excuse me him and John whirl so poor Dennis.
So John gets arrested. Was he arrested in Costa Rica
or extra diited? No, he was, Actually it's neither, And
that's a great question. He had happened to move back
to Mississippi and then he was extradited to Georgia. But

(52:37):
this whole thing, what I think is so beautiful to
celebrate is didn't you say you had good news? This
this is your good news.

Speaker 5 (52:44):
No, hold on, hold on, that wasn't very very, very
very happy.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
It's cap full.

Speaker 5 (52:51):
But listen, this whole thing, this arrest happened because of
a collaboration between the Mississippi and the Georgia police departments
and a shout out certain officers Sheriff Fred Cole and
Special Agent Jason C. Christ I believe is how it's pronounced.

Speaker 3 (53:07):
I believe.

Speaker 5 (53:08):
But they never gave up hope in this case, and
they've actually written about that fact, and they're they're holding
this as a success story to give hope to people
who are waiting for answers on what may seem like
an apparently cold case. And they want to emphasize that
investigators are never investigations are never truly over till it's okay.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
That is, it does take a really great cop though,
right law enforcement that really, you know, they're so busy,
there's problems happening every second of every day, to go
back in time for decades to continue to look for
someone or solve something. I mean, those resources are limited.
We see this, we know this, right, So that really

(53:52):
is that is actually ah, I love the message of hope. Yeah,
I think that is so important.

Speaker 5 (53:56):
Absolutely and in body. I'm curious if you had your
this experience, but I can speak for Stephanie and I
over the years of doing a lot of interviews in
producing crime, true crime documentaries and all of our podcasts,
almost every single investigator, if you ask them, they have
quote that case, the case they can't let go of,

(54:19):
the case they won't let go of. You know, the
picture of a victim that sits on their desk.

Speaker 4 (54:26):
So it sounds very cliche, but it's actually true, right,
like it actually does happen. And I think those cops
deserve more shout outs. I mean, they go above and
beyond their paycheck, right They think about it when they
go home and they're getting dressed and they're eating dinner
with their family, They're thinking about that victim.

Speaker 3 (54:45):
And I've talked to cops.

Speaker 4 (54:46):
I don't really talk to families all that much, but
I've talked many many cops, and there's so many of
them that feel that way. These detectives live and breathe
to get justice for these victims, and hats off to them.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
That's right.

Speaker 5 (55:00):
So the GBI, which is the Georgia Bureau of Investigation,
they're encouraging people who have any tips on this case
to call into nine one two three eight nine forty
one oh three. Body, What do people need to know
about the Thailand All Murders documentary?

Speaker 3 (55:19):
All right, I'm going to set the scene. Set the scene.

Speaker 4 (55:21):
Baby, can close your eyes and imagine, close your eyes,
listen to my voice. And this is the scene. This
is a young nine year old body. Moven is trying
on her Raggedy ann costume for Halloween, okay, and is
told Halloween is canceled.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
What.

Speaker 4 (55:40):
Well, that's what happened a long, long, long time ago.

Speaker 3 (55:45):
But it's actually quite tragic. I mean, I'm being a.

Speaker 4 (55:47):
Little glib, but back in nineteen eighty two, there was
a string of basically people dropping dead for no apparent reason,
and it launched this investigation on you know what's happening. Well,
Netflix's rest released a documentary about that, and it's called
Cold Case the Tailannaw Murders, and it's really quite good

(56:09):
and it really took me back in time. I mean,
you guys remember this. We're all kind of the same age, right.

Speaker 3 (56:14):
I think I'm twenty one? Yeah, me too. I keep
thirty three. Yes, I'm old enough to be here, right.

Speaker 4 (56:22):
Well, what happened was this little girl, she's twelve years old.

Speaker 3 (56:26):
Her name is Mary.

Speaker 4 (56:27):
She wakes up with a sore throat and her mom
is dotiful and gives her some til and all, and
within hours she's dead. The next day, a family, there's
a family in a house, you know, just a normal family.
The son takes a tail in all and he drops dead.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 4 (56:52):
On the same family, no different family. But the brother
of the guy is grieving his brother who just dropped dead.

Speaker 3 (57:01):
He takes a tile and.

Speaker 4 (57:02):
All what everyone with the tailet alls, yeah, it's very sad.
Then the sister, now look, keep everybody died and there's
there's many victims and they they range from age twelve
to thirty five. So these are really young people, very healthy.
No reason. Well, this is where we have another hero,

(57:23):
a health worker. She's the only one in Chicago. These
are all in Chicago, by the way. She goes to
the home of the family where three people have died,
and she sees a tail in all bottle, right, and
she's looking at it and she smells it and she
smells an almond, like an all you know that smell
of almond, right, that almonds smell, And she recognizes.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
It as cyanide. That's how cyanide smells that what cyanide
smells like almonds?

Speaker 4 (57:48):
Yeah, it smells like almond, you know that, like artificial almond.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
Family, I know.

Speaker 5 (57:54):
It so well because it gives me a headache I experience.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
It's like an air fresh. No like food food.

Speaker 5 (58:02):
Uh you know, like an added of an extract, got it.

Speaker 4 (58:11):
Yeah, that's where that's where it comes from. It's really sweet.
It's a really sweet smelling. It's very obvious. And so
they took the tile and all bottle that she found
and they tested it and there were a bunch not all,
but a bunch of pills in there that had cyanide
on them. And so that's why these people were dying. Well,
interestingly enough, they found a guy who wrote a letter

(58:34):
to the Chicago authorities and said I'm the one who
did this and if you want me to stop, you
have to pay me a bunch of money.

Speaker 3 (58:43):
Right.

Speaker 4 (58:44):
Well, they find out who the guy is, they arrest
him and he's like, yeah, I wrote the letter, but
I didn't do this.

Speaker 5 (58:50):
Okay, Well, did body a quick question? Did I know
this happened during the investigation? But did James Lewis send
the letter to investigators or did he act send the
letter to Jay and Johnson and Johnson who creates Taylan
All and demand that they give him a million dollars.

Speaker 4 (59:08):
I think it went to Johnson and Johnson got it, Okay,
I think it went to Johnson and john and of
course Johnson and Johnson would have alerted the authorities and whatnot.
He's in the documentary and I'm not going to tell
you what happens because you really have to watch it,
because this is like one of the most unbelievable interviews
I've ever seen, the.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
Most you have to watch you've ever seen. Truly, I'm
going to watch tonight. Truly, Boddy says one of and
this is going to be a total oversell. And I'm
sure we'll hear about this after people watch it, but
I think it is literally the most compelling interview I've
ever seen. I actually could not believe it as it unfolded,
and that is no for real, I'm not being paid

(59:46):
to say that, but I was.

Speaker 3 (59:47):
Gonna say, we know the people who make it, we
should have them all.

Speaker 4 (59:49):
Now listen as somebody who's been in a pretty compelling
documentary and was like one of the main vocals, and
I would like to say I was probably one of
the better interview No, yes, no, this guy. This was
in credible. This interview was jaw dropping, and I really
really encourage people to watch this because it is it's
another story of hope. If it wasn't for this health
worker who probably doesn't make a lot of money. Right,

(01:00:12):
she's the only one in the whole city. If she
hadn't taken the initiative to go to the home and
smell this bottle, how many more people would have been killed?

Speaker 3 (01:00:22):
I mean, that's right. It could have been an epidemic.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
And boy, they really corrected the problem, right, like nobody
can open it account little right.

Speaker 4 (01:00:29):
Well, the reason that we have all these safety seals
on things now.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
Is because of the talental murders. This was a terrifying time,
a moment in time, and they corrected it very quickly.
Johnson and Johnson.

Speaker 5 (01:00:41):
They actually went from opening any body you want of anything.
Two they put a three stop method where the box
itself you if you rip it, that's Tampa evidence. You
can't open it without someone knowing. Also the cap that
none of us could ever open ever. And third is

(01:01:02):
that foil that's on top of everything that you have
to puncture.

Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
Okay, annoying, No, I.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Say better, I'm glad it work. I don't mean that, Yes,
I please, I came out wrong. It is when you're
trying to open it, and yes, shoving your finger in
it it's brutal, but I'm very grateful that it's there,
and it seems like they did a great job.

Speaker 5 (01:01:20):
So watch the doc and then call us. We're at
eight eight eight three to one crime. We'll hear from
you later this week. Stick around a lot more to
dig into. We have very important missing persons cases we
want to talk to you about, and later we're going
to get to hear directly from you, which is our
favorite part.

Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
Stay tuned.

Speaker 5 (01:01:38):
This is true crime tonight. I think we should talk
about some missing persons cases because maybe this is a
place where we can actually do something actionable, all with
all of us together exactly, So Crewers. Laurence Spear, this

(01:02:02):
is actually this is a sad story. Laurence Spear is
a twenty year old Indiana University student. She was in Scarsdale,
New York, and in June third of twenty eleven, she
just vanished in the early hours. She'd been out drinking
with her friends. They were at a sports bar and

(01:02:23):
she was last seen It was about four thirty am.
And there's this incredibly haunting video, just outdoor security video
of her and she's walking barefoot. She doesn't have her phone,
she has no keys, and this is a case that
people have really investigated for long. There's been no trace

(01:02:46):
and as of today the case remains unsolved. Maybe we've
really have tried over the years too.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
You know, one of our former colleagues, Jeff Shane, this
was his case, right, that he loved and went to
the same school, and like they retract the steps, and
you know, there is rumors, right because she was young
and out and about and it was just so mysterious,
and there was always these rumors that maybe there was
like a gang of local guys and that they're all

(01:03:15):
now adults living their best lives and it's like a
secret amongst them. But we have never been able to
really find anything. So this is one of those cases
that if anybody has any new information, absolutely share. It's
the one that keeps a lot of people up at night.

Speaker 5 (01:03:32):
Yeah, just in the prime of her life. I mean,
it's it's like Idaho. She was a college she was
a university student. She was twenty years old. Laurence Spear
was studying textile merchandising. Everyone said she was such a
hard worker and you know her well, you know, as
far as we know, her life was cut short or

(01:03:53):
she has been missing since that night.

Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
Wasn't she like not she didn't have shoes on? Was that?

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
Am I asthma remembering this? Like she kind of of
something out of a bar and she was barefoot. There
was something strange about her being barefoot, that's right.

Speaker 5 (01:04:06):
That's in the video you can actually see her. Her
last known appearance is barefoot, no keys, and a couple
of more details. Witnesses who had seen Lauren reported she
was highly highly intoxicated, so much so that people think
she may have been drugged while at the bar, and

(01:04:27):
it's also been discussed Stephanie. You mentioned a lot of
theories that Lauren may have actually suffered a medical emergency,
potentially an overdose or something with her acquaintances who were
also young college students, and maybe they got scared and
wanted to cover it up, which is not an unheard
of thing.

Speaker 4 (01:04:48):
Right. Well, she required like daily medication for a heart condition, right,
so I wonder if there's something with her heart condition,
maybe that she had some kind.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
Of reaction to town like that though, so you know,
like just vanished in plain sight.

Speaker 5 (01:05:03):
Right, But you're exactly right, body that she did need
daily medication. So if anyone knows anything or sees her.
Lauren today would be a thirty four year old woman.
In twenty eleven, she was four foot eleven and ninety pounds,
a small girl. Her hair was blonde. She has blue eyes,

(01:05:25):
and at the time she was wearing a white tank
top with a loose shirt over it in black stretch pants.
If you see her, called the Bloomington Police Department. They
are at eight one, two, three, three, nine, four, four
seven seven.

Speaker 4 (01:05:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Let's hold out hope. Yeah, let's hold out hope that
you know she will come home.

Speaker 5 (01:05:45):
You never know if the right person hears the right
information they needed to and body was there? Did you
have another case? I think you did, yeah, Carl Gusse.
So this is this is really really sad.

Speaker 4 (01:05:58):
I mean they're all sad, but this is pretty such
only sixteen, so, Carl Gussey, she's sixteen. She lives in
Chalfunt Valley, which is kind of near if you're familiar
with California, it's kind of near.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
I looked it up on the map because I had
never heard of it.

Speaker 4 (01:06:12):
It's near Bishop and like Mammoth, oh right right, just
across the state line from Nevada. Actually, and she lived
at Chaffault Valley. She disappeared on the morning of October thirteenth,
twenty eighteen. Now, the night before, she had gone to
a small gathering with friends and she was smoking pot,
you know, as many sixteen year olds would do. This
is not you know, a judgment on her.

Speaker 3 (01:06:34):
I mean, who didn't, right, teenagers?

Speaker 4 (01:06:36):
Right, Well, she had some kind of reaction, right, she
had some kind of reaction, and she called her She
started freaking out, saying that people were tracking her through
her cell phone and that somebody was going to kill her.
And she had such a reaction that she actually called
her stepmother. And it's important to know that she lived
with her father and her stepmom. Well, her stepmom came
and dat her, brought her home, and then proceeded to

(01:06:59):
record her on her for like about twenty minutes. Because
she was acting so erratically, the stepmother wanted to show
her in the morning like, look, this is what this
kind of drug does to you. You know, like that
she was being like a responsible parent. I think this
is how you were acting. You know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
Well, she wasn't there when in the morning time, so
she might have teared off. Yeah, what happened?

Speaker 4 (01:07:23):
She was missing, right, so despite all the you know,
the odd behavior that she was experiencing, you know, she
again she was acting very radically, so much so that
the stepmother wanted to record her and show her. She
ended up missing and nobody has seen her since now.
It has been reported, it has been reported in twenty

(01:07:45):
twenty one, which is, you know, three years later, that
she was seen in Tona Paul and ton Nepaul, if
you don't know, is kind of across the state line.
It's about twenty minutes away. It's about four hours north
of Vegas. It's it's it's basically a gas station stop
on the way to Reno's gonna say, it's very Yeah,

(01:08:07):
I've only been there once. I've only driven to Reno,
which by the way, is beautiful once. It's like a
it's like another world of the beautiful, and so it's
it would be it would be very interesting and kind
of odd for her to be there, although it's only
twenty minutes away from her hometown, it would be kind
of a weird place for her to be. That's like

(01:08:27):
where the Little Alien is and like the Clown Motel.
You know, I'm sure it's very it's a very eclectic,
little town, but that lead has not been substantiated in
Carly's whereabouts remain unknown. Now, one thing that is kind
of contentious in this and the reason I bring up
where she lived. She did not live with her mother.

(01:08:49):
She lived with her stepmother and her father and Carly's
biological mother. Her name is Lindsey Fairley. She has publicly
expressed doubts about the account of the stepmother.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
Something the fairy has happened with the stepmother potentially that
I mean, she's kind.

Speaker 4 (01:09:07):
Of insinuating there's inconsistencies in their narratives. Whoa now she
I don't think she's come out and outright accused them
of anything, but you know, they were the last or specifically,
the stepmother was the last to see her, and you know,
is the one that basically found that she was missing.
So it is logical, you know, the last person seen.
But it also could just be that, you know, the

(01:09:29):
stepmother went to bed and Carly, you know, in her
paranoid state, wandered off, right, So you have to be
real careful about that stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
I gotta tell you, you know, it's such a I
can't imagine anything harder. My heart goes out, you know,
to their family see the idea of missing like, you
just can't get out of that loop. And I can't imagine, frankly,
anything worse. Every night I would go to bed wondering, Yeah,
you can't eat, sleep or you know anything. I'm going
to really hold out hope too, that Madeline McCain comes home.

(01:09:59):
I know, you know, and our hearts are with you know,
her family as well.

Speaker 5 (01:10:03):
And listen, there are over six hundred thousand people in
the United States alone who go missing every single year,
and listen, a lot of them are found, but tens
of thousands stay unsolved.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
And by the way, it's sometimes it's crowdsourcing and things
that actually really does move the needle. So you know,
having these types of conversations and starting these types of
conversations is really an important piece of the puzzle. I
gotta tell you, though, all I want to talk about
is justin Baldoni now or something a little bit lighter,
because it's so hard.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
My heart hurts right now.

Speaker 4 (01:10:41):
Right well, I need to give people the information on
how to get you know, fin find if you find her,
if you see her, she would now be twenty three.
She had dark blonde hair and blue eyes. She's five
seven on the one hundred and ten pounds and she
had her left nostril. Peers, please call seven six oh
nine three two five six seven eight and that is

(01:11:02):
the Mono Sheriff's apartment. So if you see Carligue, say
please give them a call.

Speaker 3 (01:11:09):
Thank you for that.

Speaker 5 (01:11:10):
Now it is important. And you know, as we said,
if anyone has any cases that they want us to
look into, whether it's missing persons or a cold case,
you know, going back to that cold case where the
investigators just couldn't let go for twenty years and finally arrested,

(01:11:31):
hopefully the right man.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
And sometimes it takes a second set of eyes, right,
So you know, even though we're not investigators quite obviously,
nor are we experts, but sometimes, you know, I can't
tell you how many times this has happened at work,
where we're looking at something that says, you know, the
autopsy says Tuesday, but everybody else says it was a Wednesday.
And it just sometimes gets you know, passed down for

(01:11:52):
years and years and years and years and years, or
stories get repeated a certain way, and you know, with
no intention of misleading anybody. Sometimes you know, memories aren't perfect,
and things get you know, re said the wrong way.
So sometimes having a second look with fresh eyes from
a group is super helpful.

Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
That's right.

Speaker 5 (01:12:13):
And to your point, Stephanie, a lot of people who
have solved cold cases, a lot of investigators, it is
in the going back that maybe oh some fact was
maybe interpreted one way correct, and you know, and then
it just gets interpreted in another.

Speaker 4 (01:12:29):
Well, even one new piece of information comes in that
makes that other fact make more sense, right, I mean,
I mean I've experienced that where I'm looking at something
like Okay, that's a but then B comes in.

Speaker 3 (01:12:41):
I'm like, oh my god, it's c exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
And again, if any of these stories tonight resonate, or
if you want us to start new cases or share
some of your opinions about any of the things we're covering,
just hit us up in our socials at True Crime
Tonight's show, for TikTok and Instagram, or at true Crime
on Facebook. So as long as he could follow that,
we definitely want to hear from you. So it seems
as though we have some sort of a caller, Amy, can.

Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
You hear us? Hi Amy? Hi Amy, Hi, this is
my favorite.

Speaker 7 (01:13:12):
Hi Hi, Amy, How are you good?

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
This is staph and I'm here with you know, Courtney
and body.

Speaker 9 (01:13:19):
I was listening to True Crime on my way home
just now. And my he was my sister's boyfriend. He
was my like a brother to me. He's my we
called my brother in law. He's been missing for over
five years. Yeah. We were from Kentucky. I grew up

(01:13:40):
in Powell County. He was actually in Powell County where
my sister had moved to. He was, they were together,
He was around people he shouldn't have been around. But
there's so many stories as to what happened to him.
He was severely diabetic. He was at the Quay City
Inn in Quay City, a hotel there. M They ended
up finding his medicine back behind Clay c the end,

(01:14:02):
without the syringes in it, and the only thing in
it was his something that wasn't needed by drug addicts.
I'll say that, yes, So they end up finding that.
Like I said, there's so many stories as to what
happened to him. He is presumed dead, but I have
two nephews. You know, he had two kids. I have

(01:14:23):
two nephews who they don't have any closure. And I
heard one of you, I'll say something. If the right
person here's any information about it, they might come forward
and say who who I had something to do with
it and bring justice because we still don't have his
body back. And there was surveillance footage of him hiding

(01:14:45):
behind someone's house and you see two vehicles circling around
looking for him, and he's if you knew Sean, he
he was running for his life.

Speaker 8 (01:14:55):
He was scared for.

Speaker 9 (01:14:57):
There was a house right beside the police station in
Stanton in Powell County, and it showed versurvey what shows
a girl walking in the house where he was, where
there was supposed to be evidence of what happened to
him at and she goes and sets the house on
far and then her walking outside. Thereeople who should have
been arrested, who are not arrested.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
Yeah no, And this listen, this is the type of
case that I think we would really love to dig
into and want to make sure that we have enough
space even in this conversation to make sure we're giving
it the dignity it deserves. First, software, so sorry for you,
what a tragedy for your sister, and you know, for
your nieces or nephews that said, maybe we can call
you tomorrow to get some more of those extensive details

(01:15:41):
and see what we can do and put it up
on our social media as well. It does take just
one person, and frankly, that's what this is all about.
So first and foremost, thank you for calling, and then
we absolutely will follow up and and please stay with
us all week. We're you know, we're wrapping for the night,
but we will be back tomorrow two hours live. So again,

(01:16:03):
the Gabby Potito story, we're gonna dig back in. And
then also, you know, ditting I have a sneaking suspicion
there will be an update in that trial as well,
so make sure we tune in tomorrow. This has been
True Crime Tonight, where we talk about true crime all
the time,