Sentence Overturned in Original Milk Carton Kid Case, Mistress Testifies in Colorado Dentist James Craig Murder Trial, Plus: What Really Happened to Gary Coleman?

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Tuesday, July twenty second. We
made it to Tuesday.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
Guys.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
We're so happy you're here. And yes, we have a
stacked night of headlines. So we have George Alivo from
A and E's hit show Lie Detector, Truth or Deception.
If you haven't seen it, you have to check it out.
We talked about it the other night and they did
this crazy episode about Gary Coleman's death. We were talking
about this. His now X took a lie detector test.

(00:51):
So we're going to get all the scoop on that
and other episodes as well. Plus this chilling new information
about this alleged killer of the Paddle Border in May
seventeen years old, some disturbing new information about that. And
also this Colorado dentist. This trial continues and today his
mistress took this stand. So before we get to all

(01:13):
of that, just want to let you know that we
want to hear from you, please call us eight eight
eight three to one crime jump in join the conversation anytime.
I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head of KAT Studios, where
we make true crime podcasts and documentaries, and I get
to be here every single night, Sunday through Thursday with
Courtney Armstrong, our crime expert and producer. You'll recognize her

(01:36):
voice from so many of our podcasts as well as
crime analyst Body Move In. You'll know her from Netflix's
Don't f with Kats Again. If you haven't seen it,
please check it out. So first, just as we hoped
a talkback, go into that first.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
Hey, Boddy, Stephanie and Courtney. I hope you guys are
having a great evening so far. For the dentist murder,
do you guys say that James Craig still would have
gotten caught if it wasn't for his office manager discovering
the synod package?

Speaker 3 (02:05):
Do you think he still.

Speaker 4 (02:06):
Would have gotten in trouble or do you think he
would have gotten away with murdering his wife?

Speaker 3 (02:10):
Just want to know what you guys think.

Speaker 5 (02:12):
Thank you, what a good question, a great question. So
here's why the office shipment mattered right. The office shipment
mattered because he ordered poison to his office, and it's
an immediate link from the poison to him, right, that's
an immediate link. Witnesses at the practice the staff saw

(02:33):
and handled unusual chemical shipments that they're not used to getting,
so that you know, these these things link the defendant
to the crime. These are really important things. If those
things didn't happen, would he have been caught?

Speaker 6 (02:48):
Well?

Speaker 3 (02:48):
Probably not. I mean, well that's the thing, like what
other evidence do they have? They have the topsychology, which
I don't know that they would have done if they
would have screened for cyanide and and what I don't
know if they would have done that. Probably not.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Joseph Scott Morgan, a forensics experts, said that that's not
on a basic panel of testing. So maybe had they
not been alerted by the ladies in the office now
and was delivered yesterday.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
The one of the doctors testified that his behavior at
the hospital was unusual. He didn't say it was like
specifically suspect, but it was unusual. Now is it possible
that that would have made him run tests? You know,
like that's interesting and then they would have looked at
the doctor searches on you know, the computer, and they

(03:35):
would have seen that he was looking for how to
make things look you know, like a heart attack or
you know. I can't remember exactly what he was looking for,
but it was something to that effect. He was searching
how to make a poison death look natural. This guy
really felt like he was above at all. Huh, Right,
So I don't that's I mean, that is such an
amazing question. And these are the kind of things I

(03:57):
am into, Like I am really into the science behind
how people get caught doing like really bad things, right, Like,
I just really like that that the whole thing. And
so that kind of question really speaks to me, and
I love it and keep it coming.

Speaker 6 (04:11):
I wish I knew.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
That's another answer.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
It takes a community sometimes, I mean, it makes it's
better than anybody because sometimes it's like one little piece
of information can really tip off an investigation. Courtney, We've
seen this many times as well. It's like sometimes it's
the swell of a community that can link things together.
And listen, that's why it's so important that we talk
about things in hindsight. Granted, these are very extreme cases.

(04:35):
We don't cover these because we're so like, ooh death.
Quite the opposite. It's like, after something so tragic, how
do you look back in hindsight and see some of
these clues that can be sort of applied to other
things for all of us moving forward. And Yeah, that
seems to me that it's very possible had had that
that arsenic or cyanide not been flagged, maybe that would

(04:59):
have gone undetected.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
It might have.

Speaker 7 (05:01):
It's interesting because I was actually just running through sort
of the notes we all keep on the different cases,
and I was trying to see, geez, would there have
been anything else obvious? And it does seem that all
roads do lead like there was the guy to the
office manager, and then the dentist himself ended up admitting

(05:22):
to a friend and a nursing PhD in the office that, okay,
I bought the cyanide and said, oh, it's just a
part of a game of chicken. I'm playing with my wife,
who's now to CeCe angela.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
Game of chicken. What does that even mean?

Speaker 7 (05:37):
He said in applyde kind of that's what I understand.
And then everything else that's been evidentiary has really come
from his time in prison, which obviously would not have
happened without.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
Being tipped off.

Speaker 7 (05:53):
So and also the further evidence is with his daughter
and trying to implicate it, so it's all stuff he's
implicated himself with after the fact.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
So I don't know. I don't know either. It really
would depend on if they were suspicious about her illness, right,
and they run like a full panel of talks, and
I don't know that they would have. Well ask Joseph
on Sunday.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, And sometimes that's the thing I mean, Listen, law
enforcement has a lot on their plate. They're understaffed, underpaid,
underappreciated oftentimes, and look, there's only X amount of time
in the day. So sometimes a tip off or a
new piece of evidence that's brought forward by either a
family member or a friend, which is not an easy
spot to be in. I give them a lot of

(06:37):
credit for speaking up, too. They could have just overlooked
it or looked the other way. Pretty much guarantees them
no job when the dentist has gone right, you know
what I mean, Sometimes you don't want to meddle. That's like,
you know, many people would sort of say, like, I'm
going to stay out of that mess. So it takes
a lot of bravery and courage to come forward, and
hats off for doing that.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Yeah wow, Well, thank you for the talk back and
keep it coming. Those are the questions I just love.
So I'm going to be talking about the nineteen seventy
nine case of Aton Pots and he disappeared. He was
six years old. He disappeared in nineteen seventy nine, and
he was kind of like the face of the missing
children's movement in this country. He was one of the

(07:17):
first children that was featured on like the milk carton
that you guys remember.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
How that was the original missing Yeah before missing posters
were before the internet event obviously.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, you would open up your fridge and there would
be a carton of milk in your fridge and it
had Have you seen me? And you know, being gen x,
I think we're all pretty much gen x. You know
our parents, would you know joke with us that if
you don't behave, you're going to be on a milk carton?
Like that was? Wait? Did my mom? Was my mom
the only one that kind of thing, You are not
alone there, you're going to go missing? Right, you don't behave,

(07:52):
You're going to go missing? Went missing? He was on
his way to school in Manhattan, and you know, he
just went missing. Well decade later, in twenty twelve, a
man was arrested. His name is Pedro Hernandez. And the
headline here is that his conviction from twenty twelve should
be retried, released, or overturned. And that's what's going on.

(08:15):
His case is thrown out. It's a really big deal.
The federal appeals Court overturned his conviction, ruling that the
trial judge gave improper instructions to the jury about how
to evaluate his pre miranda confession. So what that means
is he confessed prior to being read his miranda rights. Okay,

(08:36):
so there's a couple of things to keep in mind here.
He is mentally deficient, he has an IQ around seventy,
and he was kind of like in a mental institution.
And apparently he confessed to this crime, saying that he
took a ton down to a basement and suffocated him

(08:56):
and then got rid of the body. It's also important
to know that they never found any evidence of that.
They went to that basement and like dug it up
and there was nothing there.

Speaker 7 (09:06):
But of course it was decades later, but yet at
the time of the arrest. Yeah, I'm just seeking further
that he wasn't just under psychiatric care.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
He was at Bellevue a hospital at the time. I
mean famous use you.

Speaker 7 (09:20):
Yeah, he was on medication and diagnoses included schizophrenia by
polar disorder, and hallucinations that had dated back for many years. Right,
So boy tie that with an IQ of seventy and
that's really really rough. You're listening to true crime tonight.
We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong here as always with

(09:43):
Body Movement and Stephanie Leidecker. We're talking about Eton Potts,
the first child who ever was on a milk carton
who went missing.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
Give us your thoughts.

Speaker 7 (09:51):
What do you think also about people who maybe do
false confessions, because that's something that people feel I'm fast
different about, so we want to hear from me. But
this one seems I don't know a little bit.

Speaker 3 (10:03):
I don't know, sire. I mean, it's very strange it
confess to a crime decades later he can Is it
a hallucination?

Speaker 2 (10:10):
If there's nobody and you're being diagnosed with such, your mental.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Fear in tells you, right, why are you thinking about
this kid that disappeared twenty years ago. I don't know.
So he confessed in twenty twelve, Right, he went missing
in nineteen seventy nine. Why is this guy confessing to
a crime that occurred, you know, twenty years.

Speaker 7 (10:30):
I believe it's correct that he became because the investigators
reopened the case after it was in the Nandez is Yeah,
her Nandez's family said that he was a suspect. He
became a suspect in twenty twelve after a relative of
Hernandez whold authorities he confessed years earlier to killing a

(10:51):
child in a child right.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
So it's interesting. So the Second US Circuit Court of
Appeals found that the trial judge gave incorrect and prejudicial
jury instructions relating to the confession. So, you know, like
for Karen Reid, you know how they had questions for
the judge, right, they had about the jury, and you know,
BEV would be like, well, I can't explain that, or

(11:14):
you know, do you know how they're just very not
really explanatory in their answers. They just kind of yes.
So the jury asked if the initial pre miranda confession
was found involuntary, therefore inadmissible should they disregard the later
videotape confession. So what happened was he confessed pre Miranda,

(11:36):
they arrested him and read him his rights, and then
they videotaped it. And the jury was asking, well, if
the first one was found involuntary and therefore in admissible,
should we disregard the later videotape confession. And the judge
replied simply no, okay, So that didn't Apparently that didn't

(11:57):
provide enough explanation to the juror the jury, and so
it's getting a returned.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
So can we just explain just for the basics two
of miranda rights? Right, So, Miranda rights, we've all seen
law and order d you know, you are the right
to remain silenced. Anything you say can and will be
used against you. Those have to that's a whole saying
that law enforcement has to say. Before taking a confession,
people need to realize that they can, in fact have

(12:25):
a lawyer present so that anything they say from that
moment forward will be used against you in court. That's
the goal here. We're trying to solve a crime and
it's important stuff. So, but you know, sometimes the trickiness
of semantics there can be complicated.

Speaker 3 (12:39):
Right, So the court concluded that the instructions violated clearly
established federal law and was quote unquote manifestly prejudicial, meaning
that it likely affected the outcome. So, because the judge
didn't explain what they should do with these confessions, which
is what the jury was asking, they said it was
prejudicial and dismissed the conviction. So now, well the Manhattan

(13:01):
DA has to decide if they're going to retry it.
You should go stay in Bellevue. Maybe is that the answer?
I don't know. I can't wait to the Light Detector.
Let's go George Olivia, who's coming on? I'm so excited?

Speaker 7 (13:13):
Yes, right after the break, actually, so do stay tuned
for George Olivo, our expert from A and E's Liad
Detector Truth It's more deception, And later in the hour
we have more news on a recent double homicide.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here every
night with my favorite ladies, Courtney Armstrong and Body Move in.
And we're very very excited because we finally we have
the guy we've been talking about. Light Detectors left to
and right, and this show is honestly, if you haven't
checked it out on A and E, this show is

(13:59):
the one for you. Lie Detector, Truth or Deception, And
we have the guy. He is here officially to kind
of break down sort of the latest things that he's
been seeing in his show, specifically around the Gary Coleman case,
so we would like to do a lie detector test
as well. Also later in the show, we're also going

(14:19):
to be unpacking the new developments with the dentist who
is you know, he's doing his thing in court and
we have some new testimony to report on today. But first, Courtney,
you take.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
It well, this is very exciting.

Speaker 7 (14:32):
A couple of weeks ago, we received a tip from
a listener and it was about the speculation that was
sort of surrounding the death of Gary Coleman, who we
all remember as the.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
Beloved child star.

Speaker 7 (14:44):
So recently everyone's interest has gone crazy because of an
episode of A and E's Lie Detector, Truth or Deception.
So we ran with that and are in the really
lucky position that tonight we have George.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
Alivo on the show.

Speaker 7 (15:00):
Know from A and E's Lie Detector, Truth or deception,
and George spent many years uncovering the truth through polygraphs.
He's former FBI, and tonight he's here to tell us
about the bombshell test.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
Is he the one that did the lie detector test?

Speaker 4 (15:16):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (15:16):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (15:17):
I also remember in PP Anthony's parents as well. Okay, great, yeah,
like we are, we are in the big leagues.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
All right, let's do it. George. Welcome, Welcome, George, Thank
you for having me. Oh, we're obsessedsess with your show.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
Congratulations on the success, and we love your A and
E family so much and we're so happy you're here.
I feel like we've been talking about you quite a bit.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
Yeah, so very much.

Speaker 7 (15:46):
Yeah, you know, I was really so intrigued watching the
whole thing, and I'd love how you sort of began.
Would you tell people how you mentioned that your two
main jobs as a polygraph examiner is to one find
out who did what, and two to get as close
to the truth as possible. What do you mean by that?

Speaker 6 (16:05):
Well, it is important, obviously to find out who did what.
That's what everybody is focused on. But getting as close
to the truth as possible is not always an easy task.
I'd like to say that the truth is kind of
like toothpaste. It comes out a little bit at a time,
and usually you have to squeeze and you get a

(16:26):
little bit each time, and you don't get everything all
at once. And so it just because someone fails a
polygraph exam, it doesn't necessarily mean what everybody thinks. It
means we have to dig a little deeper to find
out what the real truth is.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
And why doesn't everybody get a lie detector test. So
we talk about cases all the time, every night, obviously,
back to back, back to back, and it sometimes is
a case of he said, she said, or she said
she said. You know, if it was a standard thing
that everybody that was you know, for example, even the
case we were just talking about where somebody may have
made a false confession lie detectors. Is there a way

(17:03):
to beat a lie detector test? I used to always
hear that if you stepped on attack, that would I
don't know, do something to your blood that would make
you pass a lie detector test.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
I'm assuming that's not true.

Speaker 6 (17:15):
Well, it's an old lives tale, and at this point
the equipment is advanced enough to detect almost well. I
wouldn't say any deception. But here's the thing. It's like
going into the bank with a counterfeit one hundred dollars
bill and you ask the bank manager for change, and
he's going to take that bill and look at it,
look at it in the light, and he may not

(17:36):
know exactly what counterfeit technique was used, but he'll know
that it's counterfeit because he knows what the real bill
is supposed to look like. So a good examiner has
been looking at like myself for fifteen years. I've been
looking at normal physiology within the normal range, and if
it does not look normal, then something is up and

(17:56):
we got to look at that a little further.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
And you do that so well because your follow up
questions kind of you know, I guess the spirit of
that is somebody starts to feel like, ooh, the walls
are closing in a little bit, and you know, somebody's
on to me, and then you rephrase a different way,
and it seems like you kind of get the totality
of a person's deception pretty quickly.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
It's really riveting to watch. You're listening to True Crime
tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Bonnie Movin and I'm here with
Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker, and we are talking with
holygraph expert and former FBI agent George Alivo, and we
want to hear from you. Give us a call eighty
eight thirty one crime or hit us on the talkbacks
in the iHeartRadio app Courtney, really quick, just to go

(18:38):
back just a second, can you give us just kind
of a brief succinct overview of why this is even
being talked about? Absolutely so.

Speaker 7 (18:47):
Gary Coleman, as we said child Star, he had suffered
a fatal head injury and this occurred after he had
a fall at his home in Utah. He was only
forty two years old. This happened back in twenty ten.
So Gary Coleman's ex wife, Shannon Price, she was home
at the time, and she ultimately gave permission for the

(19:08):
hospital to take Gary Coleman off of life support.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
There has been sort of.

Speaker 7 (19:12):
Wandering suspicion about Gary Coleman's ex wife, Shannon Price. Was
she involved? And so that's kind of what this the
goal was to reveal. And George at a question, Yes,
So Shannon's demeanor during the show seemed quite something sometimes contentious.

(19:33):
Would you ate how did you feel her demeanor was
and be our people often adversarial towards you.

Speaker 6 (19:41):
Sometimes they are. She was during the pretest interview, and
during the exam you only got a small taste of
it because obviously they have to edit it for the
time restraints. That I was with her in the exam
for about two hours. That's about how long a legitimate
exam takes. And she did complain about a lot of
things during that time.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
Well, if.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
You're innocent and you want the time, you want to
make sure that nothing gets left out.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
If that's guilty, you might feel a little defensive.

Speaker 6 (20:12):
Sorry, no problem, No problem. So she complained about the
chair being too hard, and then the room was too cold,
and then we warmed it up, and then it was
too hot, and then the lights, and then there are
so many things. And I thought to myself for a moment, well,
here's a person being given a golden opportunity to clear
her name, and she's complaining about what I would say
are trivial things. Starts you can't help but start to

(20:36):
think that she's trying to undermine, Yeah, an otherwise legitimate process.

Speaker 3 (20:40):
She's trying to get ahead of, she's trying to get ahead.
I was too hot, right, she's trying to get ahead
of the results.

Speaker 6 (20:46):
Right, Or the chair was too hard, or you know,
so many different things, but anyway, we got through it all.
We got through the test and it was a legitimate test,
so that was that hard. And then during the results,
of course, she had her a different reaction.

Speaker 3 (20:59):
She was very dismissive.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
So this is an interesting one too because remember, if
you guys aren't familiar with Gary Coleman, he was the
star of that show Different Strokes.

Speaker 3 (21:08):
Would you talk about Willis? What's you talking about Willis?
And you know Americas, everyone loved him. Everybody loved him.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
So the idea of this death being you know, slightly suspicious,
you know, has been something that's been talked about for
a really long time. And you know, maybe somebody takes
a lie detect your test thinking they're going to outsmart it,
or you know somehow you know, throw off the machine
with attack, or they're going to complain about the heat

(21:34):
or the cold. You know, at the end of it,
how was I don't want to give away the ending
because you know, we really want to encourage everybody to
go and watch if they haven't already, But Were you
surprised by anything?

Speaker 6 (21:46):
I was not. Having done this for so long, you
kind of prepare for every possible outcome. So I already
had a strategy if she had passed or if she
had failed, and what to do next. You have to
kind of deal with this kind of like a check
smash and just know what to do next so that
you're not caught off guard. So I wasn't surprised at all.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
I got to say the Casey Anthony one as well,
Casey Anthony's parents, if you're not familiar with that. Case
Casey Anthony was acquitted of her charges about killing her daughter.
I forget what year it was, but her beloved, beautiful daughter,
and she kind of cast judgment on dad and mom
and essentially blamed them. In your LIGHTE detector test, you know,

(22:29):
they came out very clean and that that was major.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
Yes, yeah, I remember the promos for that. I remember,
and I remember being so excited to see that. I
remember that that was a good one. Wow. Were you
surprised by the results in that test?

Speaker 8 (22:44):
No?

Speaker 6 (22:45):
Not really. My idea of going into a polygraphic exam
is kind of to be like the umpire, So I
have to go in there, whether it's a Little league
game or whether it's the World Series. My job is
the same to go in and call balls and strikes,
and a good umpire doesn't have a favorite team, and
a good umpire doesn't bet on the game, so the

(23:05):
results are what they are. Just like with the Casey
Anthony's parents, or Shannon Price or these other episodes coming up,
you have to have a plan or an idea of
what you're going to do next, regardless of the outcome.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
And what's coming up next? Can you tease us with
any of the upcoming episodes?

Speaker 6 (23:22):
Please do, absolutely so. Some very exciting episodes coming up,
in my opinion, there's Edward As he spent twenty years
in prison for a murder, the murder of his neighbor,
crime that he never confessed to and says that he
did not commit. But he was spent twenty years in jail. Wow,
he came out, takes a polygraph exam. Another individual that

(23:42):
was on a dateline episode Raven Abaroa. That one's very interesting.
In two thousand and five, Raven came home after playing
soccer and found his wife Janet inside their home, stabbed
to death.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
I remember this series, Yeah, of course, that's a big one.

Speaker 6 (23:58):
Yes, during that murder, their baby boy was asleep in
the next room. Now, Raven's son, who's twenty years old,
now watches remotely as his father's question by me and
takes the polygraph exam. Raven admits, Yeah, he admitted to me,
and he's admitted before as well, not just to me,
that he has been haunted by the guilt of secretly

(24:19):
cheating on his wife and his words. Many other sins
that those are his words, but he insists that he
never stabbed his wife. So that is a good episode
as well. There's another one a a handy two thousand
and eight gentleman by the name of Jeff Geishel. He
died from a stab wound to the chest. When the
police arrived, there was blood everywhere and Ava was rendering

(24:40):
aid and she was covered in his blood. And she
says and her daughter, who was thirteen at the time,
both say that it was suicide that he stabbed himself
in the chest. Well, Ava was charged with the murder,
and eventually she accepted a plea in order to guarantee
her release, and she maintains her innocence. So interesting about
that that one is that she had taken a polygraph

(25:02):
exam on some talk show one that we couldn't get
ahold of. Don't know what type of test that was,
and apparently passed, but I told her when she sat
down with me, look, you're gonna get a legitimate test
for me, doesn't matter what happened before.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
George, thank you so much for joining us. You can
catch more George Olivia on A and e's Lie Detector,
Truth or Deception. Hope to have you back really soon.
Stay right here, and we have more coming up true
Crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Thanks George, Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. Yep,
we are talking true crime all the time. So a
special thanks again to George Olivo for coming on and

(25:45):
dealing with us and his Lie Detector talk listen. You
have to check out that show though, because he's very
beloved and we hope he comes back in big shout
out to Shelley and Brad and Elaine at A and
E for making that happen and keep it coming, keep
it coming, keep it coming. So this dentist is getting
a lot of chatter. You guys have been leaving messages
and talkbacks and we want more, more and more. I'm

(26:08):
going to do a soft launch. What about this for
the name of this case, the Novacane Nightmare.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
Very very, very very I have really mixed reviews on
that one, so I applaud the alliteration.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Let's try again, Let's try the Dentist of Death that
I think that one's too. This is a tough crowd.
This is a tough crowd, so it has to save me.
Can you please se follow us with your suggestions eight
at eight three one crime, or you can always leave
us a talk back. Just download the iHeart app. It's
free top right hand corner, push the button and boom.
Leave a little voice memo when you're on the show.

(26:44):
And also you can hit us up in our socials
at True Crime Tonight show on TikTok and Instagram, or
at True Crime Tonight on Facebook. And by the way,
you guys are doing a great job loading us up
with some cases and the talk backs and the calls.
We get them, we love them, and we're so grateful.
So just know, if we haven't talked about your case yet,
it's just because we're digging in. It's not because we

(27:05):
haven't heard it. And we promised we're going to get
to it, so keep it coming. In fact, we have
a talk back right now.

Speaker 9 (27:11):
Hi, guys, Veronica here from North Carolina. I just had
a quick question. Do you think that James Craig underestimated
forensic science or do you genuinely believe he thought he
could outsmart the investigators?

Speaker 3 (27:25):
Thank you, good question. I think it's the latter. Yeah.
I think he thought he was the smartest guy.

Speaker 7 (27:32):
Yeah, And I think with what he chose, because again,
had he not been, you know, so dopey as to
send his poison to his place of business, then we
don't even know if the medical examination would have taken
because these were not things that you would test for.
So I think he never thought they would get to

(27:52):
the forensic part.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
And I wonder if he knew that this is like
a test they don't normally run, Like he thought, Okay,
this is there. She's just gonna she's gonna go to
the hospital. She's gonna die slowly and agony. Right, it's
gonna be horrible death.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
By terrible death, like it's very painful, agonizing.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
Joseph Scott Morgan was on Sunday and we talked about
this at length. Remember he was talking about like multi
system organ uh failure, So like one by one, your
organs start failing, right, And I don't know if he
knew prior that, you know, this isn't something they normally
test for. I think it was his hubris. I think
he was just you know, thinking that he's like the

(28:31):
smartest guy in the room and that he was going
to get away with it. I mean it's obvious to me,
right because like even in jail, we've learned that while
he's in jail, he's trying to hire inmates and the inmates'
ex wife's and on the outside to like plant evidence
that his wife committed suicide. And he's asking his daughter
to make like deep fake ais. Like he's so he

(28:54):
knows he's in jail, he knows he's being monitored, he
knows his communication is being monitored, but he's still trying
to get things had to happen on the outside. It's
it's as Hubris in my opinion, And.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Hubris means like he's delusional, right, like a sense of grandeur.
He has like this like overwhelming sense of self where
he thinks he's above the law essentially.

Speaker 7 (29:12):
Right, Yeah, Hubris is like too much pride, like too
much self confidence much especially in Greek tragedies. Hubert's is
what always brings you down. If you walk into any
story and you're like, I'm the best. By the end
of the story, you're going to be the worst or dead.
So yeah, it's kind of prideful.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, and too much self confidence.

Speaker 6 (29:31):
You know.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
It leads people to like.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
Disregard caution understood right or is to see the warning signs,
or to tread like slow the roll a little bit
right way? How did this guy have all this time?
He has six children, he's running a dentist practice, he's
got you know, ladies handover fist. Apparently he's you know,
organizing a death, not once, but maybe twice.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
And this guy also had a bit of a social life.
Like there are not enough hours in the day now
for any of that to happen, let alone this guy.
Now he's in jail, rocking and rolling. He needs to
be stopped. I agree. Well, Today, the witnesses continue to
testify in his murder trial. He stands accused of fatally

(30:14):
poisoning his wife, Angel. She was forty three years old,
by the way, mother of six of his children, and
he poisoned her with cyanide in that tetra Courtney, how
do you say it? Hydro hydros? I mean yesterday hydros,
Thank you, tet tetra hydrosylen And that's basically the substance
that's found in the eye drid So he put the

(30:36):
cyanide in the eye droppers and then put the eye
dropper drops in the smoothies that he would make his
wife in the morning.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
And she would a gentleman. He's making smoothies for his wife.
She probably feels so grateful that her husband, who she knows,
has been stepping out on her all the time, apparently
for years according to testimony. And like she's he's handing
her a protein shake hopefully she's just like great full
and meanwhile he's poisoning her.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
Yeah, one things to the eye drops that.

Speaker 7 (31:04):
I don't know why this detail sticks out to me,
but this dopey dentist, that's the one that's it.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding.
I'm strong for the wind. I think that was good.
Say it again, louder, say it clearer for the back
of the room.

Speaker 7 (31:22):
A dopey dentist, A person who testified him was someone
who worked at Walmart, and they confirmed that this Adobe dentist,
he bought nineteen boxes of eye drops. And my thought was,
why aren't you buying sort of one or two at
every gas station, or if you know you're up to
no good, I don't know, spread it around and nineteen

(31:44):
of anything is alarming.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
Dope dentist is right, A dope dentist. I mean, honestly,
this case is closed. That's what this guy will be
known as from this point forward. The Adobe dentist, Well, today,
doctor Karen Kane, she's an ortho dantist and a key witness.
She was having an affair with him, and she met
him at a dental conference in Las Vegas. Of course,

(32:07):
that's where all big conferences happen and all these kind
of scandals happen. You know, we were just talking about
Travis Alexander and Jody Arius, which you're just a break, yes,
And they met at a conference in Vegas. Anyway, they
met at a conference in Vegas while she was waiting
for the bus to get go to a group dinner,
and they began like a romantic relationship after the conference,
including making out her hotel room that night. Yeah. Well,

(32:31):
Craig told her that he was separated from his wife
Angela and living in a separate apartment, implying he was
getting a divorce, So Corfrito. From her perspective, everything's on
the up and up, right, Yeah, she thought she thinks
she's meeting a nice dentist. Yeah, and she's an orthodontis, Like, yeah,
I imagine heaven. Right. Well, she testified today that Craig
was saying all the right things to appeal to her emotionally,

(32:54):
especially since she had been single for a while. They
exchanged over four thousand text messages, which prosecutors read in
court to show the depth of their relationship. Right, So
imagine you're in a relationship with somebody and then all
of a sudden it's being read in court, like, how horrifying?
Four thousand again?

Speaker 4 (33:10):
Four?

Speaker 2 (33:11):
Does this guy have time to write four thousand text
messages on top of it?

Speaker 3 (33:15):
Four thousand? Right, that's a full time job in and
of itself.

Speaker 7 (33:19):
Right, Yeah, and particularly since he was alleged to have
been with, you know, multiple women. I don't know whether
it was at the precise exact time, but listen, we
want to hear from you. What do you think about
this dope? Dentist AED eight three one crime. We want
your thoughts.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
I love the cordial. That's all I want to talk
about is the Dope Dentist.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
From this point forward, all the other segments are now
canceled and it's going to be exclusive coverage of the
Dope Dentist.

Speaker 7 (33:45):
And we actually have another talkback. So it sounds like
you guys agree.

Speaker 10 (33:49):
Good morning, ladies. This is still from Tampa. I have
a question on the dentist case, and I'm wondering if
body maybe has any data in her spreadsheets on this.
But I just feel like so many of these cases
worthy spouse is the suspect. There's so many times where
they just blame mental health, whether it's the poisoning or shooting,
and I just feel like it's the easy button and

(34:10):
none of the family saw the symptoms. And I wonder
how many of these cases are they using them in
health like this? It's really gross.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
Well that's not a statistics I'm tracking, but I'm going
to start now because that is a really good point,
especially when the victim is the woman and then the
perpetrator is the husband, because women are crazy, hysterical and
we often get you know, we get that thrown at
us right that we're crazist. Yeah, we get dismissed. Yeah,
I'm not going to go off on a tangent right now,
but I think you know where I'm going.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah, you know, this is generally something that I want
to close your ears right now.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
You must, but I love you, man loud, don't mistake it,
but stop it. We're not crazy, We're not hysterical, you
know what I mean, We're actually quite rational. But I
mean I'm being like in all serious no, Snow, it
does happen where the husband will be like, well she
was crazy or she's in hysterics, and you know, it
gets thrown around a lot, and I think it happens
more often than we know, and it's in fact something

(35:02):
I do want to start tracking. So thank you for that.
I don't know the answer to that though, but that
is a good question. I would like to see that
in the Excel sheet. By the way, her Excel sheets
are like no other. We should start posting those online
for people to add on. But it's really very go
oh yeah, it is sensational and something that I really
have grown to love and trust. Thank you well, I
want to talk more about this mistress, you guys, because

(35:23):
there's more. Okay, I'm sorry, I just got to get
back to it. So he was going to fly out
to see her in March, in early March, March eighth
through the tenth, but he postponed it a week. He
was going to come out, well maybe a week and
a half. He was going to come out on the
sixteenth and the twentieth instead because of Angela's hospitalization. So

(35:45):
you guys, picture this. His wife is in the hospital,
she's literally dying. He's poisoning her while he's visiting her
in the hospital, and he's like, well, I have to
reschedule this rendezvous with my mistress. I'll come next week
when she's dead. I mean, this is what he's thinking.
I'm not saying this. He's planning ahead. Like he's planning ahead.
He's I'm going to come out, you know, after she's
you know gone. It's just disgusting. So anyway, they met

(36:10):
multiple times, including just before his arrest. By the way,
she was awakened in her hotel room around two am
on March nineteenth by detectives who informed her Craig had
just been arrested. Crazy. So this guy that you just
came to visit. He gets arrested while you're there because
his wife dies and he's the suspect. Wasn't he's taking

(36:30):
a video too? We discussed this last night.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
Wasn't he taking like the iPhone footage like from the
hallway when she was convulsing?

Speaker 4 (36:37):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (36:38):
Yes, yes, he's convulsing.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
You know, you know what it's like to be in
a hospital with somebody who's really sick. Hopefully not everybody
has had to deal with that, but it's like such
a scary place, right people are suffering. In his case,
his beloved wife, mother of six children, is convulsing, probably
foaming at the mouth in this clown it has his
iPhone out and is taking radio.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
You know what he did too. She testified today that
he sent her multiple letters from jail. When you know
what she did? She burned them. Oh that would have
been good evidence next time. Well, now she realized, she
realized after the first two. She's like, oh no, I
need to keep these, Like, oh my gosh, what am
I doing? She was just so mad. Yeah, you know,
she was like screw it. Eventually she wrote him back saying,

(37:19):
you know what, I don't want you to communicate with
me anymore and stop responding to his messages. So good
for her. She was like, oh my gosh, I can't
bess so she now she has all the ones that
you know since then. But yeah, what do you do?

Speaker 2 (37:31):
We want to hear your dating horror stories. Also, can
you imagine you meet a nice dentist and this is
what turns out to be a nightmare, the likes of
which very few have seen. We want to hear that too,
so please call us eight eight eight three one crime.

Speaker 3 (37:43):
Yeah, and this dentist is not so nice.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
So listen, we're going to be unpacking this battle board
murder in Maine. What a chilling development, and listen to
details about this seventeen year old that's been alleged to
commit the murder.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
It's really shocking stuff. So we're going to get into
that very shortly. Also, very tragically, we're sorry to hear
about theo Huxtable, beloved actor and of course Ozzy Osbourne.
We lost him today as well.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
So our hearts really go out to their impact and
their fans, you know, major, major stuff.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
But first we have a talk back.

Speaker 11 (38:20):
Hi, It's Cynthia from Canada calling just in regards to
the House in the Idaho Masacre being terarn born down
before there was any decision on the killer. There's a
specific situation that happened in Canada as well, with the
Honey and Barry Sherman home that was torn down even
before anybody has been arrested or charged in their murders.

(38:42):
So it's not unusual, but it's a little strange.

Speaker 3 (38:46):
So not Hi, Sania, We're happy to hear back from you.
I know we were missing You're missing you. Wow, we
are missing you. So you know, I think I'm the
only one that I've spoken with because I speak to
myself all the time. That was totally okay with the
house being torn down. I didn't think that the house
would have any evidentiary value. They took everything out of

(39:07):
the house that they needed. They took walls out that
I mean, we can see from the fural scan on
Halloween the dry wall that was cut out. We know
they took floorboards out. The house would never have been
able to be allowed. Nobody would have allowed the jury
to enter that house. It was dangerous to walk in.
The acoustics were different, so they wouldn't have been able

(39:28):
to test anything because the walls were removed, floors were removed,
et cetera, et cetera. Additionally, you know, Sigma Kai was
right across the street. Ethan's brother lived there and had
to look at that house every single day, and it
still had police tape up the day, you know what
I mean. Like, it's just I was totally okay with
the house being torn down, and I definitely understand people

(39:50):
are like, wow, the jury, Okay, the jury never would
have gone there. It never would have happened. Well, what
about Alex Murdall, Okay, what that was outside? That case
was all happened outside, Like, of course, the jury can
go to a field, so that's fine. They're not going
to be able to walk through a house where the
walls and floorboards have been removed and be able to
hear things, because it's going to hear it's not gonna
sound the same with those things removed. It just wouldn't

(40:12):
have been something the judge would allow.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
And I always felt differently, but I totally you that's why,
by the way, and you're not alone in that because
the school felt that way obviously as well, and many students,
So you're definitely not alone in that. I thought, just
from an evidentiary point of view, Why destroy something that
could possibly still have even a minuscule of proof in it.
This is, by the way, I feel a little differently

(40:35):
now that we know this Brian Coberger is an actual killer.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
This was under the guys that, hey.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
Look, this guy could be innocent, and if innocent, there
may be some you know, DNA or some sort of
blood in the cement outside. You're completely right, they never
would have been able to go inside. Sometimes there's a
feeling when you're looking at a house or you're in
a space, it kind of just sort of centers you
as a human. But really it was more about just

(41:02):
like maybe in the plumbing there was something that may
have been overlooked or something. And if I'm an innocent man,
which you know is disgusting because we know full well
that he is not by his own admission, but at
the time, you know, we didn't know that fully and
maybe there was something there that could grow who did

(41:22):
do it if not him, and or proven guilty one
way or the other. But you know, all bets are
off now that we know the truth. And by the way,
the sentencing is tomorrow, So tomorrow is going to be
a huge day.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
In the courtroom. We'll be covering it. We'll be there,
we'll be watching every piece of it. So please make
sure to tune in with.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Us tomorrow night because Brian Coburger will be sentenced and
is a sentence enough, and we will be following that
very closely, So stick with us. We'll be right back.
This is true Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all
the time. Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio.

(42:09):
We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker
here with Courtney Armstrong and body move in and listen.
We want to keep hearing from you, So call us
anytime eight eight eight three to one crime.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
You can leave us a voice message kind of old school,
any time of day, or can download the iHeartRadio app,
push the right hand button at the top and then
leave us a little voice memo and boom, You're on
the show. Because it's really helpful, We're.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Getting a lot of them, and honestly, it's like our
favorite thing. So join the conversation. Correct us if we're wrong,
add if you'd agree, or if you disagree. There's no
wrong answers here. We've been talking a lot about this
dopey dentist, the new term coined by Courtney Armstrong.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
I think we're all in full support.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
We'd love to hear from you if you disagree, and
also we have a talkback right now.

Speaker 12 (42:59):
Hi, this is Gigi from Dallas, Texas. I know that
a big topic has been around a definition for the
word groomer. But when it comes to Gallane, why can't
we just call her a pimp? Because that's what?

Speaker 3 (43:14):
Yeah? I love it.

Speaker 6 (43:15):
Great, Yeah, that's.

Speaker 8 (43:16):
Basically what she was convicted of.

Speaker 3 (43:19):
Thank you? You know that? Is that is so true? Period?
Is you know what?

Speaker 6 (43:25):
Though?

Speaker 3 (43:25):
But don't pimps usually work with women who are too
like older, like well I've been not older, but like
oh of age women or I don't know, I don't know.
There's many.

Speaker 7 (43:36):
Yeah, because listen, not to paint pimps with a broad brush.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
But no, I think an underage girl.

Speaker 7 (43:43):
Sneaks in and every now and again, I'm sure, but no,
with with a very high percentage, can you be a
pimp who grooms?

Speaker 13 (43:50):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (43:50):
Absolutely?

Speaker 7 (43:51):
Withholding Hey baby, I actually there is a book I read.
It's just called Pimp. I can't remember who wrote it.
It's actually it's an excellent book. But that and I
was recently reading another sex worker book which.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
Was all the all the sexy reading.

Speaker 7 (44:06):
You're doing well, No, I mean the sex Worker in particular.
It was all firsthand accounts of sex workers. So try
to you know, ran the gamut. But no, it's kind
of every iteration and it's very common, like you do
see in the movies of say you're on the street
and you're fourteen years old because your step father is

(44:27):
a creek. I know I'm painting the most obvious picture,
but listen to Statistically it happens, and that's.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
How a lot of people fall.

Speaker 7 (44:35):
I mean, since you sex worker who don't say proactively, hey,
I'm going to do this because the hours are going
to suit my schedule, which is another reason to go
into it. And then grooming is absolutely it's like oh gonna,
I gotta say, form place for you and we're going
to get you cried up and here's some money, go shop,
make yourself feel better. You are taken care of now.

(44:56):
Well now it's time for you to take care of me,
and I will take away everything you've had now and
send you back. Yeah, I have a lot of grooming.

Speaker 3 (45:06):
We have a note from Taha pimp. The Story of
My Life was written by Iceberg Slim, who was the
same of Robert Beck.

Speaker 7 (45:14):
Yes, is that right, that's correct. It's a brutal this
is not for children to read, but it's absolutely it's fascinating.
It's a gritty and it's a real world Look.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
Wow, scary, very scary. A little bit about my bedtime reading. Yeah,
talk about it, Yeah, say it loud.

Speaker 6 (45:35):
You know.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
It's interesting because honestly, with the Gilaine Maxwell stuff, listen,
that's heating up now too, because she's going to be
scheduled to speak with the DOJ. I don't know what
the what the end goal in that would be. I'm
seeing on uncertain sources that Alan Dershowitz, the attorney who
you know has been sort of linked to Jeffrey Epstein
in this alleged list many times. He also I believe

(45:57):
represented him at some point, is also suggesting that Guilaine
Maxwell cut a deal to be released from prison an
exchange for some information about Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 3 (46:08):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
This seems like one of those things I'm off there
act I'm a little afraid to talk about it. Honestly,
I think the MLPA files what a joke. You're gonna
you're going to toss those out in the olemicth hour, like, oh,
we're paying attention to files, and I don't know that
there's an easy way out at this point with any
answer that's just not the blatant, straight up truth. And

(46:29):
I fear what will happen when that truth either does
hit or kind of fear that, like something else wacky
will happen that we don't see come in because they
want to divert us from that.

Speaker 3 (46:43):
I've been spending way too much time with you, Stephanie. No,
I have I conspiracy. I do, though I have just
what it is. Yes, it's a little it's as got crazy,
but it is a little crazy. I feel like they're
doing this intentionally because oh, well, we don't know because
there's no list, and there's we don't have all the files,
and we don't have all the information we need. This

(47:05):
information from her, right, and all the information she's going
to give them is going to be, you know, leaving
the high end Republicans out of stuff intentionally.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
Right, right, like whoever it serves in office, whoever it's and.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
Now if the Democrats were in office, it would serve
the same thing would apply, right one hundred percent? Why
the same thing? What whoever happens to be behind the
mic at so it's not mutually short destruction at that point.
It's only the enemy at this point, which is the
other side of the aisles. I believe anything. I know.
It just really bums me out, but it does make
me a little unnerved.

Speaker 7 (47:39):
Going with that ride body going, which I full threadedly
did go with you on.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
I don't know.

Speaker 7 (47:46):
I think that in particular would be too dangerous. And
I don't believe anyone's purporting that Galline Maxwell is going
to give information. I might have missed that in the
most recent news, but I feel like what you're saying
is logical. But I feel like it hits a point
because then let's make belief that Gulane does speak to

(48:06):
the powers that be and said, yes, it's all the
filthy Democrats. Well, then they themselves who were embroiled. I
feel like they necessarily would have some real concrete proof
of their political opposition. And then it's like, well, once
I'm exposed, guess what, right, and it's super scullar.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
I guess that's why I'm scared, Like what happens when
that happens. So it's like it's two part On the
one hand, like of course we need answers, and it
feels like we've been gas lit and given some fake
information and that makes it really hard to trust any information.
If this is the sticking point, here we are. There's
probably a million other examples of lousy things that people
have misspoke about or you know, led the public about incorrectly,

(48:46):
But for some reason, we're all kind of stuck down
on this one, and here we are.

Speaker 3 (48:51):
It's serious stuff.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
And if the information is shared, does that mean, ugh,
the world gets real crazy, because yes, everybody is getting
and exposing each other in this like yuck fest. Or
does it just you know, become a lie that's perpetuated.

Speaker 3 (49:08):
Giley Maxwell saying that she's innocent. She's always been saying
she's innocent. So what is she going to really say
to the Feds? Oh wait, I changed my story. I
actually am very guilty. I'm a groomer in a pimp,
She's her attorney, denying that since day one. Her attorney
said he confirmed ongoing discussions and stated she quote will
always testify truthfully with immunity and possible sentence reduction being

(49:29):
diplomatic considerations. So they're talking about her testifying. But by
the way, the head of the.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
THEO jay is why we're in this mess in the
first place. Oh, I know, you know, so like what
is the benefit of that? I don't know that I
understand it enough either, So if anybody has an opinion,
please jump in and share it, because again, we're navigating
this all together and I'm not looking to add any
fire to the to the skillet, but somewhere deep in
my heart it feels unnerving and I feel like I'm

(49:59):
not alone in that.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
Well, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 7 (50:02):
And then what we will follow is that it's not
Pam Bondy. I don't know how our name escape, it's
not her, but it's the Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche
So he's the one who's announced the plans to meet
with Lane, which I think is interesting that it's not
Pam Bondy, probably because of the misspeak and everything else.
But we will definitely follow what the conversations reveal.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
And do we believe for a second that Pam Bondy
was suddenly like a wild card that was a speaking
out of turn off the coff about something so serious.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
I doubt it.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
No, I don't think that things like that get said
without some level of approval, whatever that checking order is.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
I don't know. I don't know the inner workings of
any of this stuff. Truly. Well, I don't buy it.
I feel like she's speak a little bit too. Courtney
and I were faithful West Wing watchers. We know that
we do. It's the communications Department. Yes, I love this.
Where is the white of Where is c. J. Craig?

Speaker 7 (51:02):
Yes, Express Secretary right exactly.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
So you're listening to True Crime Tonight, where we talk
true crime all the time. I'm body move in and
I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanieleidecker, and we're going
through the top true crime headlines of the day. If
you want to weigh in, give us a call at
eighty eight eight thirty one Crime. I'm going to be
talking about the Paddle Border. Do you guys remember the
Paddle Border that was killed in Maine. Yeah, So this
is kind of you know, it's really sad. So there

(51:29):
was a teen vacationer who was charged with the murder
in Maine and has revealed he was misleading police during
the search and posting Facebook messages after the murder, that
he was doing well, so sunshine Sunny Stewart. She was
forty eight years old. She vanished while paddle boarding on
Crawford Pond in Union, Maine on July second, during a

(51:50):
solo trip. Her body was discovered the next morning on
a one hundred acre island, and police later arrested Devin Young,
a seventeen year old boy who was vacationing nearby with
his family. So he was arrested on July sixteenth, so
fourteen days two weeks later, and charge and murder with
connection with her death. He volunteered in the search for Stewart. Now,

(52:14):
we often hear a lot of times sometimes these murderers
will involve themselves in the case, right, They'll be overly invested.
They'll create like Facebook groups to help search for this person,
all these kinds of like they just over involved themselves.
So we see it quite often. Right, While, he was
arranged virtually on July eighteenth, two days after his arrest

(52:37):
in Knox County court and denied the murder chargers. And
here's the kind of silly thing. But he posted on
Facebook in the days after the killing that he was
doing well, which was deleted after his arrest. I'm not
really sure what the significance is there, but the fact
that it was deleted after his arrest raises a little
bit of suspicion. Prosecutors are considering trying him as an adult,

(52:59):
citing the violent nature of the crime.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
That's right, Like, very few details have been released about
very violent nature, right, so you would have to assume
it's pretty bad, right. You know, I've seen so many
testimony from her loved ones. She was such a beloved,
beloved person, the Paddle Border victim, and you know, this guy,
if this is accurate, it's really we have to have
his head examined.

Speaker 3 (53:23):
What is happening. Yeah, it's really really sad. Another very
quick headline, Eric Mendez is in hospital. He's been taking
taken to a hospital for a quote unquote serious medical condition.
TMZ is reporting that it's actually kidney stones, and they're
also reporting that it's possible that Gavin Newsom gives him

(53:44):
a medical furlough until the Pearl hearing in August, which
is very Entah. Yeah, well I don't know that I
followed that correctly. Okay, So Eric Eric Mendez is in
the hospital. He was having some health problems it's being reported.
It's being reported that he's battling a serious, undisclosed medical
condition and he and his brother Lyle are preparing for

(54:07):
the Pearl hearing in August. Right. Well, it's also being
reported by TMZ that the serious metal condition he's battling
is kidney stones, and they're also reporting that it's possible
that Gavin Newsom is going to grant him a medical
furlough until the Pearl hearing, which meaning that he'll spend

(54:30):
his time in the hospital and not go back to prison. Wow.
But that's again, it's not done. It's just a consideration.
It's just a consideration. That is interesting. We're going to
cover this more tomorrow with doron O Fear our wonderful friend.
We love him. He's going to be here tomorrow. But
what's interesting is that guess who was on Gavin Newsom's

(54:52):
podcast yesterday. Yes, Ryan Murphy. Yes, Ryan Murphy, who did
the Menendez document or show movie. Yes, the Monster was
on Gavin Newsom's podcast. I thought that was very interesting.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
And listen, this dentist. We've been talking a ton about him,
the dentist, the dopey dentist. Yeah, so we want to
hear your thoughts first and foremost, and listen. Make sure
you stay with us through the week, because again tomorrow
big headlines. The Brian Coburger, Idaho student murders killer is
going to be sentenced. Even the President has weighed in

(55:31):
about how he hopes this will go, and we're all
kind of curious to see if he will shed any
details or will he be forced to maybe give an
allocution and tell some of the details that we're all
wanting answers for. Body is shaking her head right now.
I tend to think the same. I don't think that
will happen, but you know, we really want to give

(55:51):
our hearts and love to the surviving roommates and of
course the families and friends of the victim, So you
know that's going to be a very hard day. In
their victim statements I'm sure will hit us all pretty hard.
And also Doronto fear, our pop culture expert will also
be joining us. So very excited about that, Courtney, where

(56:12):
did you want to start? Well, I have a sad story.
I have a senseless story.

Speaker 7 (56:18):
American idle music supervisor who was just beloved by all
all accounts. She's a woman named Robin Kay, her and
her husband Thomas de Luco. They were fatally shot in
a burglary. We spoke about it when it first happened.
Authorities are now saying that the suspect actually called nine

(56:38):
one one on himself.

Speaker 3 (56:40):
It's sort of very strange.

Speaker 7 (56:42):
So the pair Robin Kay and her husband, Thomas de Luco,
who was a musician, they were found shot to death
in their home. This was on July fourteenth, and that
happened during a welfare check. However, four days prior, police
had responded to a burglary call on July tenth, so
four days before their bodies were found, and when they

(57:05):
went there on the tenth, police did not go into
the house, so potentially they missed an opportunity to discover
the crime much earlier. And what authorities are alleging is
that the twenty two year old Raymond Bouderian that he
broke into the couple's house and shot them with their

(57:25):
own gun after they came home to their house, and
then again called nine one one on himself to report
the incident. And I'm not finding what the rationale is.
I don't know if either of you have any further
information it's hard to make sense.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
I get to say that Robin was really beloved and
her husband as well, but just speaking on those that
I know close to her, that she was like the
real deal and that American n Idol family, they all
take each other so seriously, they work so closely, they
work together for such a long time that it is
senseless is an understatement, exclamation point period. We're really just

(58:06):
so sorry to hear this. You know, there's nothing really
to say other than this seems like there was a
home invasion gone wrong. There was also some reports about
a neighbor seeing somebody trying to hop the fence days prior,
so I guess this speaks to, you know, keep an
eye out for each other. We all have to for
our neighbors, et cetera. No one's really immune to this

(58:27):
level of violence. No, and yeah, senseless is simply the
only word for this. As more information emerges, we will
keep you up to date, and in the meantime, we're
going to hear from you with the.

Speaker 8 (58:39):
Talkback true Graham lighties. Now we're doing a fantastic job.
We're huge fans. Be in my eighty one year old
mother fish than every night anyway, if you're a kind
of famil in Idaho and coburger, write a book, get
an interview, any of that, I did conflicting answer, so

(58:59):
I didn't want to hear your take on it. You'll
have a great night.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
That's so sweet.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
We're so I wish we knew your name so we
could give you a nightly shout out, give us a call.

Speaker 3 (59:09):
You got to call us back with your names and
thank you for listening. So that's a super good question.
I think we went over this a couple of shows ago,
but very briefly, the United States Supreme Court basically ruled
that the son of Sam law was unconstitutional because it
was too broad in what they were restricting. They were
restricting even speech like if like a true crime creator,

(59:30):
for instance, wouldn't be able to make money from their
content because it's about the crime. So it was just
far too broad. It didn't focus on the perpetrator. So
what ended up happening was states kind of took over
the responsibility for creating their own son of Sam laws
and then using net quotes. Idaho's approach has been to

(59:55):
allow people to write a book and do interviews for money,
but have that money be sent to the families if
the families sue. So it kind of sucks, all right,
because not only do the families have to raise funds
to get a lawyer to go after that money, but
if they're not in a position to do that, what
do they do?

Speaker 9 (01:00:15):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
So that's basically what it comes down to is that, yes,
Brian Coberger would be able to write a book, sell
his story, you know whatever, But we know for certain
the families will not allow that. The families will take
legal action and they will intercede and intercept that money.
So that's the answer. It's sickening. It's so sickening. Yeah,

(01:00:37):
and I feel so strongly about it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
I don't think that nobody should be able to benefit
from something so disgusting right now. I feel differently on
the Karen Read case, for example, if she did a
book deal.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
She was acquitted.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
She's acquitted totally on hold, you know, she you know,
couldn't go to her own job. What a hassle to
be wrongfully convicted of something or accused of something, I
should say, But if Brian sees it dime, I have
a hard time believing that the families will not lose
their minds and go to the end of the earth

(01:01:09):
to fight.

Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
I cannot imagine, especially Steve, right, I mean, and I
always say Steve because it's just the most vocal. I
don't mean any disrespect to the other failingly, because I
absolutely respect the way like the Chapins are handling things
like they're so graceful and like just wonderful. But Steve
is a fighter, right Steve. Everybody handles things differently, and
Steve's way of fighting this is to be a fighter

(01:01:31):
because he's, you know, just a vocal guy. I just
can't imagine that he would just let this slide. He's
just it's just not going to happen. So you're listening
to True Crime tonight, where we talk true crime all
the time. I'm body and I'm here with Courtney and
Stephanie and we're basically having talkback roulette right now. If
you want to give us a call eight eight eight
thirty one crime or leave us a talkback to join

(01:01:52):
on the roulette, please do so, and let's do the
next talkback. What do we got? Hi?

Speaker 14 (01:01:57):
This is Marion from Wisconsin and I have a question
about Brian Koeberg, wondering you know, we hear a lot
about how we potentially could have stopped a serial killer
or we stopped him from murdering again.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
But how do we really know he's not murdered before?

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
I mean, that is the question of the century. You know,
we did the podcast the Idaho Massacre. Body was on it,
Courtney and I made it. You'll recognize Courtney's voice, she
voices it so beautifully, and that was sort of the
jump off place we were really trying to almost see,
if he didn't do it, who did?

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
Number one? And number two?

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Is it possible that if he did do it, he
probably would have struck before because you know, we had
been told, you know, by many that it's rare for
someone to kill for the first time for people, certainly
if they've been planning it, which it appears he had been.
There are exceptions to that, and we can talk about
that also.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
But you know, on its.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
Nose, you know BTK, who's you know that short for
a bound torture kill with sort of this nickname given
to a man who killed a family of four or
five I think four first kill. Yeah, So that's very
rare though, so we had to assume that there was
some sort of nefarious behavior maybe leading up to that
maybe it wasn't murder, but maybe there was sexual abuse

(01:03:21):
or sexual assault, you know, violent rape.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
And we didn't find any.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
We didn't find that ourselves during our investigations.

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
But that's not to say it didn't happen, right, And
if you guys remember if you followed this case as
closely as we all have, back in May of twenty
twenty three, it was like five months after he was arrested,
his parents were called to a grand jury in Pennsylvania
to be questioned in front of the grand jury about
the death of Danas Smithers and to see if there

(01:03:51):
was a connection between Brian Coberger and this Dana Smithers
woman who was killed. And they found that there was
no connection, that Brian actually had a pretty rock solid
alibi the night that she went missing, so they rolled
it out. But my point in bringing all that up
is that the law law enforcement definitely is looking into
that right and now you know, we know that they
did a buckle swab when he was arrested, So now

(01:04:13):
his DNA is of course in codis, so anything that
they can run now they'll be able to run it
against his DNA, which is fabulous to see if any
crimes you know, were committed. But I want to talk
about something very quickly in the search warrant results. So
when there's a search warrant done and it's public like this,
like this was, they list everything that they took from

(01:04:38):
the house, right, and in Pennsylvania one of the things
they took from the house was it says IDs in
a glove. Right. Do you guys remember what I'm talking about?
Of course? Yeah. Well I've always kind of wondered what
IDs are in this glove in his bedroom? What if?
And this is speculation alert, I need a sound, Yeah,

(01:04:59):
I need to say, I need I need a sound
speculation sound, Okay that I do play. Yeah, that was excellent.
What if My first theory on this case, before anybody
was even arrested, was that it was possibly a peeping
tom that things just went too far, all right, And

(01:05:21):
so what if these IDs they had in this glove
were of women in Pennsylvania that he was peeping on
and like was taking things from their house.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
Oh, because that is a signature move and signature it's
a very great So yeah, you're probably right about that.
I mean, I know it is. Well, we know that
he was like spooking on girls because of the dateline leak.
We've seen this that he was taking photographs of girls
in bikinis that were connected to the victims. So he
was that guy who was like taking photographs of women

(01:05:54):
he didn't necessarily know in rakhinis.

Speaker 3 (01:05:57):
So on that search worm, it says, you know, like
all the things they in one of them. I just
want to really quick cover this because I mentioned it
what a buckle swab is, and it's basically when they
swab the inside of your cheek for DNA. It's called
the buckle swab, bugle swab. So that's that's also in
the search worm, you know, the buckle swab. So I
don't know, I just I just always kind of thought, well,
maybe and hopefully we're going to find out once the

(01:06:19):
gag is one hundred percent lifted and documents are released.
And by the way, the Moscow City of Moscow is
creating a website that we'll be able to go to
when all the documents are released and we'll post that.

Speaker 7 (01:06:32):
Oh and then see as all of the court documents
are released.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
Right. So, but you know, maybe maybe they were his
IDs in this glove. I don't know. It doesn't say
just but they're only allowed to take things in relation
to what they think is related to the crime. They
can't just take dishes from your sink, right, they have
to have reasonable suspicion that it was is in relation
to the crime that they're you know, doing the search

(01:06:57):
worm Well, so got to be related to something and
it could be his because you know anyway, yeah, I
mean it could.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
We should continue this. I'm sort of curious where you
were going to say.

Speaker 3 (01:07:06):
Court, Okay, well we'll stick around. We're ending, We're going
to continue this conversation. Stick around, We've got more to
dig into. Stay right here at True Crime tonight where
we're talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
It's that time where it gives a little bit squarely
here in the studio. So shout out to the team.
By the way, we have the best team in the business,
Adam Sam taha Eva.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
Oh when we have Riley, now we go.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
I can't wait for you guys all to meet them.
They will be making little appearances here and there, but
and of course to Oscar. So we're really grateful. So anyway,
we are going to go to a talk back.

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
Hi.

Speaker 15 (01:07:53):
How they're from Wisconsin. Just wondering in response to the
callback or talk back about Carla Homolko. One thing I've
now understood about that case isn't part of a normal
plea deal that if they find out you're lying, your
plea deal is null and void. Like they made a
deal with the devil, But wouldn't that be no longer
once they found out she was culpable?

Speaker 3 (01:08:14):
Thank you love this show. I love the question. I
feel like we say that every time. No, I mean
I I love our listen. Literally, I'm not even kissing,
but our listeners are so smart. I love them. I
absolutely love them, so really quick overview of Paul Bernardo
and Carla Homolka. For those who don't know, this is
like the most infamous murder case out of Canada, I don't.

Speaker 7 (01:08:37):
This is confession. I do not know that kenon barbiecase.
Oh you don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:08:41):
I'm actually it's I have to tell you my only
the only reason I know about it is because of
Luca mcnontagh. Oh, it's so okay. He was pretending to
be in a relationship with Carla. So that's how I
know about I had her because I had a researcher.
I was like, who okay anyway, Kennon Okay. So they
killed a bunch of girls, all right, and that's the
summary is.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
Like killed this understatement, they tortured or killed her a
bunch of girls in men's Carla's sister, yeah right, oh yeah,
and then like one of them had I see.

Speaker 3 (01:09:12):
Great now I'm remembering this. It's so dark. Here's what
happened though. When she when they were first arrested, Carla
portrayed herself as like a battered wife, right, like forced
to help him in these things, otherwise she was going
to be killed, right. To avoid a harsher sentence, she
accepted a plea deal, which was twelve years for manslaughter,

(01:09:33):
and she agreed to testify against him. Well after his arrest,
police searched the house but initially failed to find a
lot of critical evidence. Months and months and months later,
Ernado's lawyer revealed he had found videotapes hidden inside a
light fixture, and these tapes showed Carla not only participating,

(01:09:56):
but actively engaging in the assaults and the killing of
the victor, which was contradicting her story. Right, And so
to our talkback caller, her her point was, well, her
plea deal she'll be null and void. Sure, but this
is Canada, okay, and Canadian law prevented reopening her case,
so they were it was already done. It was a

(01:10:17):
done deal. And there was massive outcry about this, like
massive outcry about this, and I don't know. One thing.
I don't know, and maybe maybe our friend in Canada
can't call and let us know. Has the law changed.
I'm not sure. But by the time, by the time
the tapes were reviewed by prosecutors or plea, bargain had
already been finished, you know, finalized and done and filed

(01:10:37):
with court the common you know, the province already had
it like it was done deal. So no, they couldn't
change it.

Speaker 7 (01:10:45):
But if that had happened in the United States, I
don't know, Yeah, i'd.

Speaker 3 (01:10:51):
Be well, one thing I know, okay, So you know,
Donald Trump recently tweeted about Brian Coberger. It's saying, you know,
I'm urging Judge Hipler to force Brian Coberg to give details, right, Yeah,
And last night we talked about this and I had
said I don't think he can. You can't. The judge
can't force anything. The plea it's already done, like once
it's filed with the court, and like, I don't think

(01:11:11):
they can. I don't think they could take there's no takebacks.
I would love to talk to an American lawyer. I'm
not sure, but I think it's the same here I do.
Is that possible.

Speaker 11 (01:11:22):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
If you lie to get a plea deal? Yeah we should, Okay.
I don't want to answer because I don't want to
be wrong until he's on our show.

Speaker 7 (01:11:31):
But I am going to sidebar and see if our
friend Kirk Nurmy can come on, and.

Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
Please, can you just come on the show just so
we could hear it from you loud and clear. You
know again, the Barbie We're gonna have to cover this
case in full. And I think it's worth noting they're
called the Barbie Killers because they were, you know, esthetically
so good looking, and I think what's so scary about
it is, you know, on its nose. Yeah, they were
both very attractive. What a bunch of sickos, and they

(01:11:59):
would basically lore young women, I want to say, like
fourteen and fifteen year olds and rape them and kill them.
And one of them had a sister, and the sister
I think was fifteen years old also and they basically
killed the sister and I think had sex with her
her corpse, and it was like Christmas Day or Thanksgiving

(01:12:22):
or something. So it's very very dark. But I think
what was so scary about it also is they seemed
like a couple that had a big life ahead of them,
that had a lot of opportunities in front of them.
They were very beautiful, probably granted a lot of you know,
easy rides because they were so good looking. Right, So,
talk about the odds of two people coming together that

(01:12:45):
are that twisted is very rare, right, We don't see
that too too often. And yeah, it turns out she
of course turns on them. But it's pretty baffling to
me that those two aren't in a supermax.

Speaker 3 (01:12:57):
I know she's out there walking free. That's insane.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think he's also like eligible
for parole, like after twenty five years or so, so
he might also see the light of day and again,
unspeakable things to minors.

Speaker 3 (01:13:13):
Unspeakable. Yeah, well, you're listening to your crime tonight on iHeartRadio.
I'm body movin and I'm here with Courtney and Stephanie
and we're doing back Roulette again. This is fun. I
like the talk back roulette. Do we have another talk?

Speaker 4 (01:13:25):
Pat?

Speaker 3 (01:13:26):
Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 13 (01:13:27):
This is Andrea and Utah Dre the Menimbos brother's case.
I've been following that since the day it happened, and
it just really has astounded me where it has gotten
to this whole big push to get them out is
asounding to me. You've got two people that are dead
that can even defend themselves against these allegations of abuse
against him. And I know you guys are big on

(01:13:50):
rehabilitation and things like that, but for me, what prison
is about is about consequence for actions. Sure against severe
actions and slaughtering your parents, really loading to shoot your
mother in the space, I'm sorry, but the consequence of
that is life in prison.

Speaker 8 (01:14:05):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
I got to be honest, you know how I've have
been divided about this one. I disagree with you. I
feel that way. I just think it's scary stuff. Why
is this the hill that we're dying on? Like the
Menandez brothers did the crime, they're doing the time, they
seem to be sorting it out. I hope the kidney
stones clear up. We've heard that they're admirable citizens behind bars.
And they've gotten their masters. And you know, I'm not

(01:14:28):
in charge of the world. God knows, But isn't there
a better use of our time? Like, there's a lot
of criminals out there, there's a lot of people who
have been wrongly accused. This does happen. You know, they
did the crime. They he did the crime.

Speaker 3 (01:14:43):
I don't know that. I disagree.

Speaker 7 (01:14:45):
Oh so you way better use of our time. So
you're saying that they should stay where they are.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
Potentially, you know, you murder two people in a very
horrific murder. I find it hard to say, yeah, yeah, okay,
all is forgiven. You had a tough, you know story
life seems like it was real bad, which, by the way,
it does.

Speaker 3 (01:15:07):
You know, they were sexually But you can.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
Say that for everyone. I think, like, yeah, line up
every person in prison. They probably have a very difficult
tale to tell that got them there, Right, doesn't make
the difference because they're there and listen at a very
serious crime.

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):
This is relevant to things that are happening today too, Right,
Like we just talked. We were just talking about Bryan Coberger.
He's being sentenced to put life in prison without parole. Right, Well,
what if in thirty years, they're like, well, we're gonna
he's gonna be up for parole. How we believed in
high school, you know, and it was really hard for
him because because you know, he was he had like

(01:15:41):
how a fiction to Heroin? And I think this is
why Steve is so upset. Yeah, you know, like Steve Gonzalez,
the father of one of the victims, is furious with this.
And I think the Menendaz Brothers is a good examples
to why he's furious with us.

Speaker 2 (01:15:55):
Yeah, and I get that, and you know, maybe I
guess the consequence and maybe this it makes you feel
better a little bit call or thank you for the call.
By the way, is that really the theory is that
not that they should necessarily just be released, even though
that's what's being discussed right now. It's really that maybe
they were mischarged from Jeff Street because of all the
attention back in the eighties that they were really they

(01:16:15):
were brought.

Speaker 3 (01:16:16):
Up in the incorrect charges. If the sexual abuse had
brought into the matter, then they would have served their
time and likely be getting released around this time anyway.
As opposed to life, right, you know, I would.

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
Think it would have been manslaughter, right, is what that
would have been considered.

Speaker 3 (01:16:31):
So I think that's the argument. I don't think, but
I'm with you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
I feel this way a little bit about Gypsy Rose,
even though I think she's a beautiful girl and I
wish her so well, I just kind of it's tough, man.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
You what's that body? I think Gypsy's a lot more
sinisor than how could you not be?

Speaker 7 (01:16:53):
And listen, I get the point of you start unraveling
anyone's story and you'll probably start a sad beginning if
the that the story, as you're in a supermax prison. However,
Gypsy Rose, she was born to a woman who tortured
and put her on display, and I mean did unconscionable

(01:17:14):
things to her her entire life, and kept her a prisoner,
not in just her own house, not just in a
wheelchair that she did not need, but inside her own body,
by poisoning her from within and without. How how do
you not get murderous?

Speaker 4 (01:17:30):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:17:30):
How do you know it's true?

Speaker 2 (01:17:32):
I just think it stinks that you know the person
who did the murdering, who she put up to it
and gave the knife to, you know, like he's still
behind bars for a really long time, you know, like,
that's where it gets a little funky for me. You know, listen,
he isn't he troubled. He's also troubled and has a
very low IQ. And again, like I watched Gypsy and

(01:17:52):
her beautiful baby and and I wish her well, I'm not,
you know, disparaging.

Speaker 3 (01:17:56):
I'm trying not to, at least even though I think
I am.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
Actually I'm sorry, But looks like heroes and villains both
have the same origin story typically right, something to overcome,
and you can take a hero's path or a villain's,
and you know, it doesn't always roll out so great,
and you don't guarantee to get to go home and
be with your family for the Thanksgiving holiday if you've

(01:18:18):
slaughtered your parents. And again, anyway, I guess I'm talking
myself in a circle.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
All stop. Emptly, I'm still confused by it. I'm a
little conflicted by it all well.

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
And although I do believe in rehabilitation behind bars, and
I think that's such an important piece of the puzzle.

Speaker 3 (01:18:34):
I think both things can be true.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
You can do the crime and do the time, and
maybe there's some rehabilitation to be added behind the scenes
as well. I think I don't think one necessarily precludes
the other.

Speaker 3 (01:18:46):
Well, and the good news too is I don't think
the Menendez brothers are any risk to society. They was
a very targeted killing. They weren't like running the streets
shooting at you know, neighbors. It's very purposeful. It was
very targeted. I don't think they're you know it, It's
not like he's a Brian Coberger who killed the stranger.
They you know, they killed their parents, which is gross too.

(01:19:06):
But yeah, I just don't think that they're out a danger.
So I don't I don't know. I think it's a
little different.

Speaker 2 (01:19:10):
Yeah, I mean fair same for Gypsy, right, I guess
Gypsy is going to go running around and killing people.

Speaker 3 (01:19:15):
Well, I don't know about that, but body, thanks to body,
of course, I'm joking. I would never never suggest and
listen this talkbacker like, we want to do this more often,
so we need more keep them coming. What a night Listen.
If you've missed any of the show, don't sweat. You
could always catch us right after as a podcast, So
make sure you do that because if you're not catching

(01:19:37):
us live on your ride in the evenings. By the way,
we love it that you do.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
You could always just kind of download it as an
app right after, so be sure to do that. And
thanks for the messages. We actually have a talkback right now.

Speaker 3 (01:19:51):
Hi, ladies.

Speaker 16 (01:19:52):
Kind of a random thought, but I watched the documentary
the other night about Amy Bradley, the twenty three year
old who disappeared thirty thirty five years ago on a
cruise ship and the theories that she's still alive in
the Islands. Is that a case that you guys might
talk about and dig into a little deeper. I know

(01:20:13):
there's a lot of interest on the internet about it.

Speaker 3 (01:20:15):
Now, Oh, howda you were just talking about this during
the break listen. I was going to talk. I wanted
to talk about this. I'm so glad. Thank you for
the talk back. By the way, I Indian and I
watched episode one. Okay, I'm not sure how many episodes
are because we didn't we had stuff to do that
day anyway, But we haven't moved forward. So my proposal.
I have a proposal for the team. The internet is

(01:20:38):
a buzz about this, this documentary. They really are, and
everyone's talking about it. Amy's brother is on x every
day giving these evidence. So here's what I was gonna say,
why don't we watch it together? Why don't you watch party?
Not a not a viuting party, but tonight watch episode

(01:20:59):
one or you know whatever night we choose, just watch
an episode, okay, and then the next night, well maybe
we watch another one. We could talk about it because
everyone is talking about this case, okay, and I thought
it would be we have all of us, the.

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Whole crime crew, we all and maybe even our listeners
so tired. No, we don't do tonight, maybe I'm behind Yes,
tomorrow night, what about this?

Speaker 3 (01:21:26):
What about Thursday? We do a call to action? Yes,
okay for the team and our listeners. Oh yeah, maybe
they can watch it with us, like watch episode one
and let's talk about it. Yes, yes, you know, and
we can. We can communicate via social media. You guys
call in, you can do we can do more talkback Roulette.
I don't know about the about the episode, and we

(01:21:46):
could talk about the brothers tweets because they're very interesting.
This is all very very interesting. I don't want to
give too much away. I'm not going to, but I'm
telling you I only watched one episode and I am hooked.

Speaker 2 (01:21:58):
Yeah, you don't say that all the time. So you
don't your audience. You're a very good audience for this.

Speaker 3 (01:22:03):
So it was Indy. So yeah, all right, I'm down.
I'm totally available.

Speaker 7 (01:22:08):
I am too, And I just want to say to
my niece Page Paige, I will be listening, because she
a couple of days ago tipped me off and said,
you have to watch this.

Speaker 3 (01:22:17):
I know everybody. I know. I'm critrigued, I'm scared. I
don't want her to be missing any We'll talk about
it Thursday. Then in the show, like, hey, this are
called The Action. I don't know. I thought it. I
thought it might be a fun way for us a
book club but not really kind of like a book
club documentary, Yes, my kind of book club. And I

(01:22:39):
thought it would be fun for you know, everyone who
is our true crime crew to follow along and participate
with us, and but you know, maybe call and say, Botty,
didn't you see that? Wow? Are you forgetting that happened?
You know? Yeah, okay, let's do it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:51):
Let's do I thought it'd be fun, all right, So
we're going to do appointment viewing and then we're going
to have a discussion after I'll questions and answers will
be welcomed and yeah, I'm down to the bone.

Speaker 3 (01:23:04):
Awesome, Okay, good, I'm so thank you for the talkback.
It reminded me of what I wanted to propose. I
was going to propose it on recall that we have
every day and something all day to you'll be like
I have an idea, I have this idea, and then
you mentioned that case, so you almost would have full circle.
I would say that was meant to be, just like
being with you guys is meant to be and it's

(01:23:26):
the best. So we're getting the longer. We have a
big day tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):
I feel so anxious even just thinking about this hearing tomorrow.
So make sure you tune in and again leave us
all your messages. Please call in eight eight eight three
one crime and keep those talkbacks coming. We so appreciate
your listening. More on this. This is true crying tonight.
We've been talking true crime all the time. Have a
wonderful night and stay safe.

Speaker 4 (01:24:00):
Two

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