Suspect Identified In Devastating Palisades Fire; Return To Massachusetts and the Karen Read Effect

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Wednesday, October eighth, and yes,
we have a stacked night of headlines. I'm Stephanie Leidecker
and I head up KT Studios where we make true
crime podcasts and documentaries and I get to do that
with Body Moven and Courtney Armstrong. We have the whole
gang here right now. Because listen, a lot going on today.

(00:44):
That's an understatement. A suspect has been named in the
infamous Palisades fire that took place back in January. New
details on that is evolving real time, but we definitely
want to break it down.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Also, there's new case.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
There's new information reserving around the seventeen year old in
New Jersey who's accused of literally running over to teenagers,
which again is a story that's evolving, but hopefully we
get some real information fast. Also, that Wisconsin man who
sacrificed hisself for his pregnant sister, I mean, that was

(01:18):
and is one of the most tragic heroic stories, so
we're going to get some new details on that as well.
And trial attorney and Emmy Award winning host Michael Bryant
is back. You'll remember him. He's been with us many times.
And here's here at breakdown all of the latest in
wait for it, the Karen Reid trial and updates to come,

(01:39):
Dun Dun Dune, Dun Dun Silvil trials left and right.
We have Turtle Boy having a trial, so he's been
in the trenches and is going to bring us all
of that and more on our return to Massachusetts, if
you will. And this Palisades thing is also, you know,
happening real time. And even as we were coming on
the air, Boddy, you were getting a little bit of
an update about Diddy and his potential new placement, so

(02:03):
we maybe will unpack a bit of that too if
we get new information while we're on the air.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
So we are happy you're here with us.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Join us eight eight eight three one crime or leave
us a talkback, or you could always hit us up
on our socials. Courtney Armstrong, where should we begin, Well,
the Palisades fire and there has not been a lot
of news for quite a bit of time, but it
was just released that a man named Jonathan Rinderneck, He's
a twenty nine year old He's been arrested and charged

(02:32):
with starting the Lachman Fire, and that is what led
to the deadly destructive Palisades fire in Los Angeles this year.

Speaker 4 (02:39):
I'm sure everyone can imagine seeing on the news, it
was simply apocalyptic that fire did began spreading in January
seventh and ultimately became one of the most devastating wildfires
in Los Angeles County history. Twelve people were killed, thousands
of structures were destroyed, and it's believe that the initially

(03:02):
sparked smaller fire, the Lochman one, was smoldering underground for
days before reigniting due to high winds, which I honestly
didn't even know that was a possibility of physics.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
Apparently there was always rumor of that.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
And you know, there's been so many miss pieces of
information about how this could have started, right, It could
have just been a wind event. It was global warming,
it was going to be the winds that suddenly caught
onto a cigarette butt. Who knows, but you know, the
devastation is pretty undeniable. And if this is in fact
the guy, it shocks me that would actually be a person.

(03:39):
I don't know why that surprises you so much. So
I know this is an ongoing investigation, but I could
say personally, I would really like answers.

Speaker 4 (03:48):
Sure, the suspect we know was arrested at his home
in Melbourne, Florida. That happened just yesterday, and he is
accused of deliberately starting that fire after midnight on New
Year's Day.

Speaker 5 (04:01):
By using an open flame.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
So again, if that is indeed what happened, then that
fire smoldered for a week before coming up, and that
it really was the winds were monumentally high like that. Yes, yeah,
and that in and of itself was a very big
news story because it was kind of the worst of
every bit coming together, right.

Speaker 5 (04:24):
I didn't know that. I didn't realize that, you know,
plants and whatnot can smolder underground and travel. I had
no idea that that was even possible until it was
so dry.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Also, so there was a dryness in the area as well,
So imagine certain conditions, you know, really the perfect storm.
If you have those winds, which they were big winds
that day, people always talk about it, but you know,
having witnessed a real time and know, I was feeling
so proud that I was able to get you know,
some lawn chairs in before the big wind event, you know,

(04:58):
because it was all over the news that morning, and
you know, I was personally new to the area, so
I was like, ooh, the winds. I got to get
prepared and thought we had But you know, who would
have thought what that could lead to?

Speaker 5 (05:10):
Who would have I mean, unimaginable destruction.

Speaker 4 (05:13):
The suspect allegedly lied to police in a January twenty
fourth interview about where he was on the day of
the fire, so that information has been released.

Speaker 5 (05:23):
If convicted, he would face.

Speaker 4 (05:25):
A mandatory minimum of five years and up to twenty
years in federal prison, which seems low to me.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
Twelve people lost their lives.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, it does seem insane to me, and I don't
think people realize. And again I don't want to make
this about me. Yes, I was in the Palisades, and
yes I've since moved to a different place because there's
a startover for everyone involved period the end. But people
have been annihilated their lives and I got it so lucky,
So not to make this about me. I mean I

(05:57):
have friends and neighbors that they lived in their house
for forty five years. Everything was in that house and
you leave with the shirt off your back and maybe
your cell phone and that's it. And it's also a
war zone. I mean, it's a toxic city fire. So
you go there, you know, accompanied by law enforcement or
the military to go rummage for things, and you know,

(06:19):
some got luckier than others, and you count your blessings
really quick, but there's no winner in it.

Speaker 5 (06:25):
It's not livable.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
You know, people got displaced and are still displaced because
there's also nowhere to go once you lose your stuff, right,
you know, and they're still chasing insurance and you're still
chasing where to move, and you know there's a grief
attached to that, of course, and yeah, it's stuff, but
you think about it.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
Twelve people, twelve people lost their lives.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
It's not a very large area and there was no
way out also, you know, so from from a real
scary perspective, you know, I didn't know that was possible.

Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yeah, unimaginable is I don't know, that's the only word
that in an apocalyptic the idea that.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
One person could do that.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
I don't know, I know, you know, it just seems
like I was really shocked today, and you know, it
kind of really makes you wonder what in the hell
is going on in your head that that seemed like
a good idea on New Year's Eve. And if in
fact this is true, and you made up a picture
and chat gpt about, you know, people running from a fire,
maybe because there was money involved. You know, we talked

(07:25):
about this right before coming on the air, and Body
made the assertion that his photo that he made allegedly
on chat gpt was of people running from a fire, right,
but they were there was like a dollar sign.

Speaker 4 (07:38):
Involved, and yeah, it was a dystopian painting that he
asked chat gpt to create, and it was of a
city burned with on one side while hundreds of thousands
of people in poverty were trying to get past a
gigantic gate with a big dollar sign on it. So
that would if this is true, it could indicate a
lot of things. These are just communicating there's.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
This like assessment of wealth, right, And I can tell
you firsthand that's like not everybody in the people move
there because it seems like it's safe and it's so beautiful,
and you know it is not that you know, it's
where people raise their families, regular people that are just
hard work and trying to figure it all out. And

(08:23):
they can't get it figured out. So it's pretty tragic.
And if you look at those pictures even today or
the video, I mean, it is an inferno like no other.
So if this person was intentionally doing that and this
was a planned event on Year's Eve and that it
kind of maybe went further than he thought. The suspect
allegedly lived in the Palisades at some point. There doesn't

(08:44):
seem to be too much about his like education and such.
And then he was also living in Hollywood kind of
by running and Canyon if you know that area at
all in Los Angeles really beautiful, but you know, I've
actually lived there too.

Speaker 5 (08:57):
At some point, I feel like this arsoness is following me.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
And then the you know, was later arrested in Melbourne, Florida.

Speaker 5 (09:05):
So you know, what do you make of that?

Speaker 2 (09:07):
You know, his parents were or our Baptist missionaries, his
you know, family or any friends that spoke of him
said he was just shy.

Speaker 4 (09:17):
Right, I don't know, I think a lot more will
be coming out. Prosecutors have stated that the suspect called
nine on one to report the fire after setting it.
He additionally stayed and offered to help fight it. And
one other piece of information is also on chat DPT.
He allegedly searched whether or not you were liable for

(09:37):
a fire started by a cigarette, which the prosecution argues
that these were done to paint a picture of a
fire being innocently caused.

Speaker 5 (09:45):
This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We talk in
true crime all the time. I'm Body Move and I'm
here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong and we're right
in the middle of talking about this Palisades fire. Suspect
has been arrested, and we're talking about the idea like
this was this intentional because, as Courtney just mentioned, he
like basically googled can I be held liable for starting

(10:08):
a fire with a lit cigarette? But okay, so here's
what happened. He was working as an uber driver, right
and after he dropped somebody off in the Pacific Calsades,
he drove to like a trailhead and as he's walking
up this trailhead, he's taking videos on his iPhone that
is overlooking the area while listening to a rap song

(10:31):
like a video, like it's a French rap song. His
datu is from France, so it's this French rap song
whose video included scenes of objects being set on fire.
So they're kind of yeah, they're part about it.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
That the chatchy pet part of it, I also think
is interesting, like I haven't really heard that being such
a source for content, if you will, by law enforcement.

Speaker 5 (10:53):
That's the first time it's.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
Really been seen so glaringly, or at least because I
feel personal to it. And even him saying, you know,
the lighting up a cigarette thing, is that to cover
his tracks? Or was that just a Google search? So
he has the words tip of tongue. If he's asked
again by law enforcement, I don't know, but it does
seem like if you're lighting a fire and then calling

(11:15):
nine to one one and then you know, offering to
lend a hand to firefighters to fight the fire that
you set and it was a blaze. Firefighters, you know,
put their lives on the line for so long.

Speaker 5 (11:31):
And we're talking.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
Days in days in days in.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
Days, So that just means there's an attention seek in
that that he's trying to be the hero of a
story that he clearly feels like he's not, and I
would love to do a deep dive on it. It's
hard that we got on the air and I was like,
it's gonna be fine. I do feel a little like
punched in the gut the more I talk about it,
because I get eno aged. I can see so many
people that I know deserves so much better, that have

(11:56):
been really messed with, And you know, the recovery is
still happening, like there's still in it. It's not like
a thing from many months ago, right, you know, there's
still kind of in the exact same place financially trying
to start over. The location itself is still toxic. You know,
there's not It's not like it's you know, let's go back.

(12:17):
It's a war zone.

Speaker 5 (12:19):
You know that song that I was talking about that
he was listening to, the theme of that song is
despair and bitterness. Isn't that interesting?

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Well, you know, it's funny because people do spread what
they are if that's the case, right, So at a time,
that's the kickoff to the year of so much, you know, sadness.
It seems like in so many places. Isn't that so
appropriate that he had kicked it off right and.

Speaker 5 (12:46):
He was kind of obsessing about this song because he
watched it nine times on a loop.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, and I will say this one thing positive to
take out of it, aside from the many. Yeah, let's
try to be positive things because there have been all
so many and I can personally speak to like fresh starts,
and sometimes things happen to you for you, and and
like I can be a real silver lining on lots
of people that I know and love, but so many

(13:13):
that don't have that luxury and they should not be
forgotten in this process. And also just to kind of
be a little prepared. You have your sneakers in your car.
The car was getting abandoned in front of it. You
can't get past it, and the fire trucks can't get up,
so people run on their feet. But when you don't,
like that's what I was thinking, Like I don't have shoes.

(13:34):
You should have sneakers in your car, with socks, a
pair of sweatpants. Make sure you have small bills cash,
not just like a couple twenties. Have it in singles,
literally have forty bucks if you can in singles tucked
away somewhere in your car. Obviously water is a rough
one because like I don't know how long that keeps for.
But I can promise you're thirsty and real hungry, and

(13:55):
you do anything for that one half a power bar
that you tossed at the side of the You know
that you didn't really take enough time to enjoy.

Speaker 5 (14:01):
You want it.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
So have your little go go kit in your car.
Your earth quake, not the big one, like not all
the things that we prepare for hurricanes, like a go
go kit.

Speaker 4 (14:11):
Very stage advice and something I think that's good advice
for everywhere.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
Are everywhere.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
And by the way, gas in your car. Do not
let your terrified tank. I'm not going to go low
because that is the you don't have gas, you don't
get out.

Speaker 5 (14:25):
Oh you're not talking about a game your car, No,
an your car. Just keep your tank full. Oh as
full as possible. I go to like seventeen miles left.
I am the worst. Do not do that anymore.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
Promise me that to me for you, I were my
number one tip for you. Please keep your gas tank full.

Speaker 5 (14:44):
Good tip. Well, when we come back. An interesting new
detail in the case involving the seventeen year old from
New Jersey accused of killing two little girls and later
Emmy Award winning host and journalist Michael Bryant joins us
to discuss the latest on Turtle Boy on Karen Read
I can't wait, Stick around Turn tonight.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm
here with Courtney Armstrong and body move in and we're
going to turn the vibe around.

Speaker 5 (15:24):
So FYI.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
If you want to join the conversation, you can just
call us live as always eight eight eight three one crime.
But we really also like your talkbacks, so.

Speaker 5 (15:33):
Have those coming as well.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
Just download the iHeartRadio app, push the little microphone in
the top right can corner.

Speaker 3 (15:38):
It's like a little icon.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
If you will push that, leave us a little message
and boom, you're on the show almost real time. So
Sam and Adam are standing by because we have kind
of a juicy couple of stories that we want to unpack,
especially the developments in the Karen Wee case.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Am dying to be discussing later.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
In the show, the civil stuff, and now the beef
with Turtle boy, really.

Speaker 5 (16:00):
Interesting new development.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
So of course trial attorney Michael Bryant will be here
to give us all the scoops. So body changing gears,
Where should we go next?

Speaker 5 (16:10):
Well, really quick, I just wanted to mention. I know,
we were just talking about the Pacific Palisades Fire and
we ended it on a positive note, but I wanted
to add one more positive thing out of all this.
Victims of the Pacific Palisades Fire. Now that it's been
you know, it's officially basically a crime, right, additional funds
open up. I don't know if people know about this,
So if you are a victim, please go to Victims

(16:32):
dot CA dot gov and see if you qualify for
additional funds. And if you don't, that's not the only program.
There's additional programs. Just do a little research. I just
wanted to put the little feather out there for people
to pick up on. And you know, again, our hearts
are with you and where you're part of the family,
and we want you guys to be compensated and taken
care of. So please go check to see if you

(16:52):
are qualifying.

Speaker 4 (16:53):
And I just wanted to add if you are still
you know, underwater or that feels overwhelming, which it well, sure,
ask a friend. Ask if you have that smart friend
who's good at research, they will be happy.

Speaker 5 (17:07):
To help in some way. So just reach out.

Speaker 2 (17:11):
I mean for sure, sometimes it just needs someone to say,
I'll take.

Speaker 5 (17:14):
Care of that. You know, that's right.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
I was like belaboring something and it was like, just
I want to find you the person who's going to
handle that because you get so overwhelmed.

Speaker 5 (17:23):
Yeah, and I can tell you that your friends want
to help you because they feel powerless, right, so if
you give them a task that might help you, it's
going to make them happy to Okay, it's every ual
beneficial everybody.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
It's actually showing friendship because people want to show up
for you and they don't know how, and there's a
reciprocity in it. You would do the same, but you
it now. By the way, and this is the case
with any kind of insurance thing.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
You got to do it real quick.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, do it as soon as to wait until you're
feeling for it, your feelings, none of that matters. You
got to get into the insurance thing, stat stat because
that line gets real long.

Speaker 6 (17:59):
Right.

Speaker 5 (18:00):
In other news, do you guys remember this, We reported
on this last week the case of the seventeen year
old Vincent Battilo out of New Jersey who made that
crazy YouTube video and then went and ran down those
those seventeen year old little girls that were riding their bikes. Well,
it's taken another turn. The suspect's uncle is the police chief,

(18:24):
which we had talked about that there was some kind
of relation there. So he is the police chief and
his name is Christopher. Well, there's been a civil suit
filed against him from a former officer who accuses him
of retaliation and misconduct inside the department. The revelation is
raising new concerns and questions about the leadership and accountability

(18:47):
and not only that, but the optics within that police
force now linked to this you know, national tragedy that occurred.
So his name is its chief, Christopher Batteluo. He's the uncle,
and he's being sued by former officer Matthew o'halla. Okay.
The suit claims that Matthew o'hala was retaliated against after

(19:08):
he reported sexual harassment within the department. So the police
officer reports sexual harassment and then he gets retaliated against
according to this lawsuit. So in these court filings. O'hala
says he faced unfair discipline, humiliation, and emotion after alerting
supervisors that there's been misconduct going on, you know, and

(19:31):
some in not all, you know, but in some police
circles there's that thin blue line and you do not
cross it, right, and this would be considered possibly this
thin blue line, and this, you know, this retaliation can
be very real. Again, this is all alleged by the way.
The lawsuit was filed in Union County Superior Court alleging

(19:51):
violations of New Jersey's whistleblower section laws. Now it's worth noting, though,
that there are no ties with this lawsuit into what happened.
It's just that he's the police chief and he's the
uncle of this kid, right, So it's some residents are
starting to question whether or not the chiefs families tie

(20:11):
to this suspect could complicate public trust. Again, there's no
evidence of interference at all though, right underline.

Speaker 4 (20:19):
That yes, and the chief has said that he wants
a full and transparent investigation, and he has publicly condemned
his nephew's alleged actions right in the crash.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
But if you're going to be his nephew and maul
down allegedly allegedly allegedly to incredibly beautiful, highly functional to
young girls, lucky to have the chief of police as
your uncle, And wasn't he released and then re arrested?
And there was some weird hiccup in there as well.

(20:55):
I hope we're all just paying attention to it, because
we do believe we are definitely going to see a
police chief handling this extremely well and carefully because all
eyes are on you. I mean, because if this is true,
this is awful.

Speaker 5 (21:11):
At this point though, I mean, I would think he
would have to like refuse himself or something, right, Like,
I don't know how that works, you would think, But
I don't know if that's the.

Speaker 4 (21:21):
Case, because I know residents are questioning if the chiefs,
the chiefs family tied to the murder could complicate the
trust or you know, interference in the case. But yeah,
it does seem like refusal should be mandatory, I should
be more than inappropriate.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
And also in the other direction, you might even overcorrect
because you don't want anybody to think that you're being
leanient on a family member, and now that all eyes
are on you, you're.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
Like, oh, well, really throw the book at him.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
So like that doesn't work in either direction, and we
need indifference, we need investigation, we need objectivity, right, So
in cases too close to the heart, you know, that
doesn't always work.

Speaker 5 (22:01):
And just as a reminder for people who aren't, you know,
totally familiar with what happened, This happened on last month,
at the end of the month, September thirtieth, in teens
Maria Neotis and Isabella Salas, they were both seventeen. They
were struck and killed by a speeding SUV while riding
e bikes you know those little powered bikes in Cranford,
New Jersey. Apparently they were going to get ice cream

(22:24):
with a family. Yep, with the family, right. So authorities
are alleging that Vincent, the other seventeen year old, he's
a minor in this case, he intentionally drove into them
and he was going seventy miles an hour in nessory.
So he was charged with two counts of first degree murder,
with prosecutors citing evidence of premeditation. And he had this
live where he went on he was on YouTube and

(22:48):
he was saying, oh, the more you talk, the more
I get paid from YouTube and you know, those b
words and I'm you know, he was he was very
upset with one of the girls, that one of the victims,
and then this happens, and then he goes live again
and he's like, I'm the victim. I'm the one who's bullied.
I'm you know, kind of playing the victim card. And

(23:09):
then of course he's been charged. So that really charged.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
And by the way, these young girls, who are again
so loved mom and dad have also you know, they
were they were being stalked and harassed, and this this
little maniac, if this is true, was really on a
mission to cause misery for their families.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
And for this to be.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
The topper after they've raised their hands to law enforcement
asking for help, that would be the real tragedy. If,
in fact, the connection between allegedly allegedly allegedly uncle and
now the accused, if that maybe made them not take
those harassment charges or the request for help because they

(23:54):
were asking for it.

Speaker 5 (23:56):
Absolutely they had a restraining.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
Order, you know, So is that something that's maybe looked
is that of another thin blue line where oh, don't
get so deep into that case because you know it
involves a family member.

Speaker 5 (24:09):
I'm not We have no idea, but.

Speaker 3 (24:12):
You know, well, these are things people are saying to
be aware of.

Speaker 4 (24:14):
Yeah, well, well, I mean we do know as fact
that Maria Niotis she had filed those multiple complaints with
law enforcement and including stalking, online threats and harassment and yeah,
for months, that's right, months, and families of both victims
insist this was not an accident. The families are calling

(24:36):
it murder in the first degree. So we will continue
to update you as more information comes forth.

Speaker 5 (24:43):
That's wally.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
I would look I would look at that where those
charges or were those asks for help from law enforcement
were There are many attempts to have, you know, their
daughter's safety be taken seriously.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
Where those looked over.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
Because of the family connection is maybe the larger question,
because if that's the case, then these murders could have
been avoided.

Speaker 4 (25:05):
That's right, and that is unspeakable if so, so again,
as it unfolds, we will keep you abreast. This is
true crime. Tonight, we are on iHeartRadio. I am Courtney
and I'm so so lucky to be here with Stephanie
Leidecker as well as a body move in and we're
talking about a bunch of headlines, and I wanted to

(25:27):
move on to Tyler Sadowski. This twenty year old was
killed when he tried to intervene to protect his seven
month pregnant sister, Mikhayla. This happened after her boyfriend allegedly
ambushed them at their home and the boyfriend, the suspect,

(25:49):
later died by a self inflicted gunshot, and this horrifying
moment was filmed and shared via snapchat. Oh my yeah, yes, yes,
and it sparked a removal tug of war between law
enforcement and social media. Mikaela has survived. Michaela delivered her

(26:11):
baby prematurely.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
Pound plus baby by the way, so yes, you know
I did to cut you off, but yes, thank god
the baby and she's survived. But you know, the baby
was two and a half pounds when it was born,
So how traumatic.

Speaker 5 (26:27):
How traumatic?

Speaker 4 (26:28):
And her brother's dead and she's been shot, and it's
it's really just tragic. And this this snapchat connection, it's
it's feeling like there's just a proliferation of people using
social media as one aspect of crimes and.

Speaker 5 (26:46):
The Internet is the new crime scene. I've been saying
this for almost a decade. The Internet is the new
crime scene.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
We just feeling so close to it right now because
of the in sales podcasts and these ideas of you know,
these single people and men, and not that all men
would do this obviously, so in this particular grouping though,
of the lone wolf, the person who would be an
inceel who was maybe on the dark web organizing or
quite the opposite, not organizing at all.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
You're just by yourself.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
In your head, and you're lonely, and you're making really
sick o decisions about other people's lives. Like the guy
who's allegedly allegedly lighting a match or causing a fire
that devastates the whole community and kills twelve people.

Speaker 5 (27:29):
You know, that's a single.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
Despair who has better drive, yeah, driving job, you know,
but it's just down on his luck and everybody has
it better. And same for here, this seventeen year old,
if in fact this is accurate, allegedly allegedly, allegedly, this
seventeen year old, he didn't want those girls to be happy.
He didn't want to spread kindness and have a big

(27:52):
life for himself. Instead, he was going on live streaming
his nonsense and his big ideas, like a hero when
really you're the monster and we're seeing this is like
the third case even this week that we've discussed about this.

Speaker 5 (28:05):
It's really mind blowing.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
And it's not on purpose. This is what this is
just happened.

Speaker 5 (28:10):
What's happening.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
It's notting these stories, it's right, and are these like
becoming sort of pop up stars because they're seeing others
doing it? Obviously the the most significant, most recent assassination
of Charlie Kirk, you.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
Know, allegedly allegedly allegedly.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
This Tyler Robinson is just just an ordinary guy that
everyone's describing as yeah, shy, didn't really know him.

Speaker 5 (28:33):
It seems to be.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
The mo of all of these individuals that are are
really devastating people beyond measure. And then at it with
the internet level, you know, that's being hard enough to
monitor well, although somehow his chat GPT in the Arson
case seems to be relevant. But how are they even
finding this stuff? I don't know it all just feel scared.

Speaker 4 (28:57):
It's it is, it's scary, it's tragic. And the Barry
County Sheriff's Office they have acknowledged this what they're calling
a disturbing snapchat video of the shooting and they're working
with Snapchat to remove it, and Snapchat has reported that
they claim the removed they have removed the video when

(29:21):
it was identified, but law enforcement stresses that it's still ongoing.

Speaker 3 (29:25):
And that's the thing. You can't take things back, you know.

Speaker 4 (29:29):
We referenced earlier Bianca Devins, a seventeen year old who
her family still from many years later, is tortured because
her death pictures were put out. I mean as a
means of torture is all I can I can think,
And yeah, one.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
Sort of glory run in it. So it's a clown
of it.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yet it's like this quiet reredy nobody in mama's basement
who's anonymous in the real world. So they think they
could lean in and be not anonymous at all and
be loved and be welcomed. But you know, their real
life becomes online. So yeah, lighting a match or running
over two girls, it's like a video game. Yeah, it's

(30:12):
like really like there's a there's like a disconnect somewhere,
and I do think we have to address it. I
don't have the answers by any means. You know, we're
down the rabbit hole on in cells on the podcast.
But if anybody knows, please share your insight because it's here. Yeah,
eighty eight three one crime, Now give us a call.
Now things are taking a turn for the weird. I'm

(30:34):
happy to announce. So okay, body, let's go because we're
shaking it up with a news story that is certainly
going to change the vibe.

Speaker 5 (30:42):
Listen, this is just kind of a wacky, one of
those wacky stories. I saw this today on YouTube, and
this happened back, this happened last year. Okay, Daisy Link,
she was incarcerated in the Miami Dade Jail. She stayed
birth in June of this twenty twenty four, claiming she
became pregnant. Listen to this. Despite never physically meeting the father,

(31:06):
who was a fellow inmate, Joan Depase. Okay, so they
never met, but two say he smuggled Seamen to her
cell through air vents using makeshift lines that she and
she like self inseminated using a yeast application device that
you can get in jail.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
What, yes, yes?

Speaker 5 (31:29):
Is that a thing I didn't? Apparently apparently he made
like deposits into like a sandwich baggie of some kind
and then rigged some kind of you know, wound it
up and passed it through these air vents in the prison.
It's like a jail. And I didn't by the way.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
Yes, still this is not very sanitary.

Speaker 5 (31:52):
No, it's not sanitary.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
This could available for the for the for the baggy
to get through.

Speaker 5 (32:02):
Yeah. So they communicate through these error conditioning events initially,
and they passed notes and photos while they were recording
one another. And then they devised a method to transfer
this you know, specimen from his cell into hers, and
he would wrap it in saran wrap kind of like
a cigarette, wound it right real tight. He did this

(32:22):
five times a day. I'm not going, my god, what
fertility like this is? I mean, ladies, listen up. I
mean this is.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
They were dedicated and it would be sort of an
instant thing too, So.

Speaker 5 (32:40):
I thought I had to stay in a certain temperature.
Yeah you would. I thought like if oxygen hit it,
it would not be you know, a little land rap.

Speaker 4 (32:49):
I don't know because at my high school sex education,
I remember, I just thought you'd get pregnant if you know,
two days later you sat on a car seat where
semen was and that it can you know, where it
can semen can work its magic for I mean, I
know at least seventy two hours.

Speaker 5 (33:07):
I didn't hear that really well, yeah I don't know that.
Yeah slightly, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
It's like this inception story should be so romantic, but
you find.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
It too checking in Stephanie, you're wondering why you feel
queasy about this inmate masturbating five times a day into.

Speaker 5 (33:25):
A baggie and that baggie.

Speaker 4 (33:28):
Contents being inseminated to another prisoner with a yeast infection applicator.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
Wow, I mean it's industrious. I got to give him that.
When there's a will, there's a way. And how did
the baby work out? The baby's good? Babies good?

Speaker 5 (33:43):
So the baby was born, the baby was poorful. Now,
the Miami Dade Productions facility just released its findings in March,
because of course they had to do this investigation, like
what is going on here? You've been here for more
than that.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, I've been here for eleven months?

Speaker 5 (33:59):
How do you have a baby? And they they did
release its findings. There was no staff misconduct.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
I my brain went there, that's likely cover up for
a little misconduct with a security guard.

Speaker 5 (34:13):
But they made some changes to prevent this you know,
happening in the future. You know, there's no there's no
more vent communications, you know, so that dating pool is
going to be sufficiently decreased. You're not going to be
able to pick up a woman or a man in
jail through the vents anymore. But yeah, they described in

(34:36):
jailhouse interviews how they built this line through the vents,
using betting and repeatingly, repeatingly attempting to transfer the scene.
And they were legitimately dedicated this.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
Why imagine if all inmates were doing this like they
were having just I didn't.

Speaker 5 (34:55):
That, You've never e I thought they were separated by gender.
I did too, male all, what is happening in this
Miami Dade jail, Florida.

Speaker 4 (35:04):
Well, medical experts have been interviewed because you know, yeah,
story has been talked about, and they say, conception via
such this method is extremely unlikely. But they then they say,
you know, probably less than five percent.

Speaker 5 (35:21):
That's a pretty high probability.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
That's a very high probability.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
I always wanted to do this show. My stepdad had
the idea. It's called inconceivable. Oh yeah, every episode is
another miracle of birth that you know happens in unusual ways,
you know, and nowadays with infertility and so much technology
bringing real miracles to people. Many of my friends have
experienced miracles, and this would be this would be quite

(35:48):
the miracle.

Speaker 5 (35:49):
So for me, they're both in jail for well, they
were charged with murder, different different murderers. Okay, So they're
both being charged with separate murders. They didn't know each
other prior to going into jail. They fell in love
through these events, through these this courtship. Okay, So I
just want to give an update on what's happening now.

(36:13):
So he pled guilty to the murder and was sentenced
to twenty five years and she is still in the
jail because she's awaiting her own trial in her own case.
And their daughter lives with his mother.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
You know what, wouldn't it be so interesting and beautiful
if the daughter goes on to be like an incredible attorney.

Speaker 5 (36:37):
Who oh that would be He becomes like an.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Avocate you know, the sea and put away the bad
eyes and give relief and you know, aid to the
ones who have maybe made decisions.

Speaker 3 (36:49):
That they regret.

Speaker 5 (36:50):
I'm really upset that you guys miss my pun Just now, wait,
I missed it. I missed it. You're planting the seed ye,
and I love it And that was a great fun.

Speaker 4 (37:01):
So I'm stuck on the event, like the curiosity of
how that relationship begins day one?

Speaker 5 (37:08):
Hello.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
But also is the concept of uh love is blind
based on I was gonna say, what do you mean
you don't.

Speaker 5 (37:16):
Get its special scial you see? Also blind in jail?
Was that another?

Speaker 4 (37:23):
Is that another pund the juicy?

Speaker 5 (37:25):
Oh? Okay, but that makes sense? Like that does make sense.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
You have all the time you are lonely and you
want to talk and connect with somebody. You got nothing
to lose, You're in it for decades. Wow, that is
a story that I wasn't expecting. And a little pick
me up there we go makes you go on to
commit the most wonderful things in life.

Speaker 5 (37:50):
Right. Yeah, I wish this baby well very well. Yeah,
he's with she is with grandma, so hopefully she has
a wonderful life. Wow. So yeah, I don't know. We're
gonna see. So I understand though that we can go
to a talk back.

Speaker 7 (38:06):
Hey, nadies, Gigi, here, I'm going to weigh in on
the way to vest conversation. How you on every day
I have for the past two years when I'm walking
my neighborhood and listening to your amazing podcast. It has
made such a difference in my Ostio Parini numbers.

Speaker 5 (38:23):
Uh, it's been. It's incredible. It has helped my.

Speaker 7 (38:27):
Frozen shoulder, just all the things menopausal for that matter.
And I'm so glad you guys are wearing them too.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
I have to get on all Okay, listen True crime tonight. Community,
Let's get our vests on.

Speaker 5 (38:42):
Let's get our strength. Let's get strength, Let's get strong.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
Let's start.

Speaker 5 (38:48):
You know we can. We can do this with our
little vests. I couldn't even open a pickle jar today.
Well that's why I need the vale. I know. I
feel like as I get your strength is like, yeah,
because you got going, we've got to be doing.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
You gotta put the vest on I do. It's the
it's the it's the it's the secret. It's the secreted strength.

Speaker 5 (39:07):
Observe it.

Speaker 4 (39:08):
Yeah, the hand strength that goes all the way up
to like compressed neck. I would bet you one hundred
dollars that your hand strength is because you look down
like every one of us, all us look down at
your phone. Your neck gets out of whack that that
decreases the strength all the way down.

Speaker 8 (39:26):
Yeah, great, and there are exercises for that, but you know,
the neck isn't getting helped either by us all looking down.
I wonder where ever, catch yourself in the mirror and
you don't expect to see.

Speaker 5 (39:37):
The donchin I turn on. Oh my god, I turn
my camera my phone and front facing. I almost I
almost have a heart attack, saying it's like Joba the
Hut staring back. It's in my phone.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
So listen, get the vest. I think it's all all
the things that would be the best merch. We should
get vests.

Speaker 5 (39:56):
Stop. Maybe they have a little glow and boy each other.
It will all be a little to apocalypse together, like
the glow stripes, like the reflective light.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
You know, yes, and everybody's a good morning angel on
the podcast, Like I listen, I think we're onto something.

Speaker 5 (40:16):
Listen.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
I'm just started a couple of weeks ago. You guys
have witnessed it live. But you know it's hard to
get stuff in. It's hard to get those steps in.

Speaker 5 (40:25):
Tell me about it.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
That was very motivating. Thank you for the talkback. You know,
the morning walk is the best thing.

Speaker 4 (40:31):
And Gigi talk back or call us again, and anyone
else should as well. True crime tonight, we're at itIt
eate through one crime. We'd love to hear from you
any time of day. Uh well, I guess our show
hours are best to call, but talkbacks are anytime. Well,
if they call while we're not on, they can leave
a voicemail.

Speaker 5 (40:47):
That's true. There's really no excuse to let us not
hear your voice.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
I guess it's like a downright, outright cry for it.

Speaker 5 (40:54):
It's so satisfying.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
And also, Gigi, by the way, if you have any
suggestions on those vests, because we are going to win
in it, So if you have some insider scoop as
the veteran of the West seems like the vest wearing,
we want to have the same success as you, So
shoot us a DM or something with a pick.

Speaker 5 (41:12):
E s what other talkbacks will wait? Are you becoming
exercise experts?

Speaker 2 (41:17):
Oh god, no, it's a turn that the show we
didn't expect.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
I mean, I didn't expect the prison sperm so expected.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
Wednesday, we're gonna get Jack Luaine, like we should bring
back aerobics.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
Courtney loves aerobics.

Speaker 5 (41:33):
I love a zoomba like a zoomba. Yeah, which is
kind of aerobics, right, exercise. Let's go to a talk back. Hi,
Hannah from Australia.

Speaker 9 (41:45):
You're talking about the drug smuggling of the Budi board.

Speaker 5 (41:49):
That was Chappelle Corby.

Speaker 9 (41:50):
She spent nine years in prison in Bali for that.
But interestingly, they have this group called the Bali Nine
where they tried to smuggle drugs from Bali to Australia,
I believe, and two of them actually got sentenced to
death and were executed. That's an interesting story too.

Speaker 5 (42:06):
Oh my god. Okay, So I was talking about this
this documentary I saw gosh I want to say, maybe
fifteen years ago. It was a really long time ago.
And then her name was Chappelle, that's right. I couldn't
remember her name at the time because it you know,
off the cuff was talking about it, and she was
going to Bali. You know, I spent some time in
Malaysia and there are a lot of Australians on vacation

(42:28):
in that area of the world. Okay, so she was
going to Bali because you know it's rep by Australia.
That's ready. They go and she is at the airport
and she has a boogey board okay, and the boogie
board's and like a boogiey board bag. Well they're open.
They open it up and it's full of marijuana, like
full of marijuana, and she's like, that is not mine, Like,

(42:50):
well I would never like that is the dumbest thing. Well,
this is Bali. This is like straight to prison. Do
not pass go? Do you not collect two hundred dollars?
Straight to prison? She spent nine years in prison in
Bali because of this. It was possible she didn't do it.
Was it maybe a mistake. Well that's what she was,
you know, saying in this documentary, And you know, I left,

(43:12):
you know, watching the documentary going well, I don't know.
I mean, she's saying she didn't, but they maybe it
got planted on maybe well a lot of people are
saying that, like sometimes like baggage handlers or whatnot. You know,
in one airport you'll be working with one in another airport,
and they had this system going on. But if that
were the case, wouldn't they have taken the weed out

(43:34):
of the bag.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
You know, they were waiting for her to kind of
like maybe backguard her luggage because she might not even
known it was in there, so then she has to
go somewhere and then they take the bag without her
realizing it. Oh my goodness. Ye, you have to wrap
your luggage. In some of these locations and airports, they
have that saran wrap that you put around your bags
so that nobody just shove.

Speaker 5 (43:54):
I recommend that. I absolutely recommend that to Yeah. But anyway,
they thank you for the talkback is a great one.
I had completely forgotten about that until we were talking
about this baggage handler situation.

Speaker 3 (44:07):
To that other story too.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
Ta by the way, to how we didn't get to
say it, I should have said this we had the show.

Speaker 5 (44:13):
I'm glad you're feeling better.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yeah, So he has to not speak right now because
he's prepping to get our guest Michael Bryant the Great
on the show because he's going to be breaking down
all things Massachusetts and Karen Reid. So it's okay, but
we're just glad you're backtop and he's well and just
his bright, shiny self yet again.

Speaker 5 (44:34):
So yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
The other case though, for life and execution for this.

Speaker 5 (44:37):
Dress us, they don't listen over there. They do not
mess around like it is scary, like when we were
preparing to go to Malaysia. It was like, do not
bring zummies because you know I take ummies. Do not
bring anything because it's literally straight to prison here. You're
not gonna be you know, you're not gonna survive. Oh yeah,

(44:58):
Like they do not mess around. They take it very
very seriously. Drugs in their country. They do not mess
around with it. Like it's not like, oh okay, it's
a misdemeanor of straight through right.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Hey, death sentence a very special place too. I guess
I had from there. I guess that's that's why. That's
how you clean it up.

Speaker 5 (45:15):
Oh, I mean maybe I don't know, but so I
never did. Obviously I was over there for two months
and I didn't even drink. I was like, oh, I'm
too scared of anything.

Speaker 4 (45:22):
Yeah, straighten the don't believe, Well, well listen, Happily she is.
She has been home, she served her time and is
now avoiding interviews. She's focusing on her mental health and
we wish you well after that experience.

Speaker 5 (45:41):
Yeah. Well, coming up, Emmy Award Winner, Emmy winner Michael
Bryant unpacks Turtle Boy, Karen Read and more courtroom drama
and don't forget to call in eighty eight thirty one
Crime to share your thoughts with us any of Tonight's stories.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
Keep it right here True Frime Tonight. Welcome back to
True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all
the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head u KT
Studios where I get to make true crime podcasts and

(46:14):
documentaries and I get to do that with Courtney Armstrong
and Body Move In. We get to be here every night,
and we want you guys to join the convo eight
eight eight three one crime or give us a talkback,
or you can hit us up on our socials.

Speaker 3 (46:29):
Listen if you've missed the show.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
Also, as always, you can always catch the full show
as a podcast after. And it's been kind of a
whirlwind of a night so far, and it's about to
really heat up because we have you know, Michael Bryant
is here. You guys will remember him because he's been
on before. He was covering a lot of the Karen
Reid when that was happening in real time. We all

(46:52):
remember Karen Reid. She ultimately won her case. We also
remember that, but suddenly it's back. Lots of civil lawsuits
are happening, and you guys remember drama, lots of drama
behind the scenes, so we're very excited to be joined,
of course by longtime trial attorney, journalist and by the way,
Emmy Award winning host of of course the show Justice

(47:16):
served TV Network, where he has been providing incredible coverage
on all of these major cases. So Massachusetts has become
kind of his home away from home. And you'll remember
also his beloved wife Lisa Bryant.

Speaker 3 (47:29):
Did the Epstein doc.

Speaker 5 (47:31):
Remember she was on telling us all about her She
was on the boat with the there.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, so this dynamic duo, that's the real show power.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
So here we go, the show within the show.

Speaker 5 (47:43):
So Michael, welcome. Can you hear us?

Speaker 10 (47:45):
Hey, I can hear you? How are you? How is
everybody good?

Speaker 5 (47:49):
Good?

Speaker 6 (47:52):
Oh?

Speaker 10 (47:52):
Glad to be back. Good to be with you guys,
about you know, as the world turns Massachusetts sedition.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
Yeah, yeh, dirts, Oh my gosh, we have so many
things to ask you about and hopefully you're okay.

Speaker 5 (48:06):
Starting with Turtle Boy.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
So just to catch everyone up, reminder, since it's been
out of the news, Aiden Kierny is a guy named Hurtleboy.
He was supporter extraordinaire of Karen Reid. He's actually credited
with bringing her case to national attention. Well, turtle Boy,
he's facing multiple charges and this stems from alleged witness
intimidation events that happened during the Karen retrial. So in June,

(48:34):
as Stephanie mentioned, Karen Reid of course was acquitted of
second degree murder and she was convicted of operating under
the influence. But again, a lot of this stuff that
was so big in her support was Turtle Boy. What
is going on now? It seems like the tides have changed, Michael.

Speaker 10 (48:56):
You know, it's almost like the prosecution there in the
Commonwealth took their sits off Karen Reid because they lost famously,
and you know, have now focused on Aidan Karney. Turtle Boy.
I've never called him man never.

Speaker 11 (49:10):
I don't know.

Speaker 10 (49:10):
It just seems like a weird name. I know, the
history of doctor turtle Boy. He appreciates I call him Aiden.
So he was in court, yeah, I know, I think
he appreciates the the the the turtle Boy monitor just
feels weird to me. So he was in court again

(49:31):
today by zoom, but he was back today because the
Karen Reid case came back from the you would think dead.
They had a hearing. This is just so weird. They
have this hearing brought by a special prosecutor Cosgrove. He
wanted Karen Reid's passwords to get into the two phones
they took from her almost two years ago. And they

(49:53):
still have the phones. They've not given them back when
she asked to get give them back. And the and
the car. Of course everybody knows about car that didn't
hit John O'Keefe. She got the car back and it
was smelled like p and it was trashed and they
had fixeduff P.

Speaker 6 (50:08):
Yeah, oh yeah, because.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
They're probably like defaming it behind closed doors because again
it was here against the police department.

Speaker 10 (50:15):
It could have been people, could have been cats, could
have been rats, I don't know, but it was clearly
a yeurine smell. So she gets the car back, that
they keep the phones, and Cosgrove, the special prosecutor. I
don't know if it's special as in special education. I
don't know what that means. But they bring him in
and he says that wait a minute, before we give
these phones back, we want to get into them and
look for evidence of a conspiracy between Aid and Carney

(50:39):
True Boy and Karen Reid to intimidate witnesses. So that
just came to them after they had the phones a
year and a half.

Speaker 11 (50:46):
That just came to them.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Wow, look into it.

Speaker 10 (50:48):
They're both iPhones and if you have an iPhone, you
know that they're pretty tough to crack with some of
the normal processes that law enforcement use. And so they've
got these, you know, paper weights that they can't get
into and they want the court to endorse their opening
them up. And that was the hearing today. Just a
bizarre hearing because you're thinking, well, why is Carrie even

(51:10):
on the table here? She was acquitted and other than
the dui Ks, it's just because the Commonwealth they're not
good losers. So they think that there's another way to
get at her and use the connection with Aiden Carney
because of the intimidation of witnesses charges against him. They
want to find a conspiracy that she was involved in that.

Speaker 5 (51:32):
Theory encouraging it or asking.

Speaker 10 (51:37):
Or working in concert with him to set up the
people that he's accused of intimidating. The McCabe, the Alberts, etc.
All these names that people remember from the trial. I'm
sure if not trial number two. Certainly Trial number one
because they didn't testify other than Jen McCabe, most of
the others did not testify, and trial number two. So
it's a way for them to keep her, you know,
dancing on a string, hoping, you know, that they find

(52:00):
something on her. And technically they could have independent charges
for witness intimidation regardless of the acquittals. In the more
important case, it's possible theoretically, do they have the goods?
Highly unlikely. They've had Aiden's phones for a couple of years. Well,
if I'm in a conspiracy with you guys, right and

(52:21):
you have my phone, everything in my phone would link
me to you if in fact there is a conspiracy.
So they've had Aiden's phones all this time, so at
the very least they should be having to tell the court, look,
we found in his phones, X, Y, and Z. That
gives us the right to get into her phones for
confirmation or whatever other information we can find. They don't
have that argument. They don't make that argument. And Aiden

(52:42):
has said to me many times there's nothing in there.
There's nothing there, so I can.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
At that point, because the Karen read of it all,
it kind of gets me fired up. When I think
it does your woman, I'm like, I don't know Karen
read And by the way, I love Boston, So shout
out to Boston. What are the greatest cities in all
the world? In law enforced been putting their lives on
the line. That is not up for convo, But in
this particular case, it does appear that there was some

(53:10):
shenanigans happening with a cross little grouping of allegedly allegedly
allegedly people in this Canton police department that maybe had
it out for Karen Reid, and you know, her life
was tossed out the window. Imagine going through two trials
and then finding out in your heart that you were
actually set up by the guys that were with you

(53:31):
that night. And that's been an ongoing thing now. Of
course John O'Keefe's mom, Peggy O'Keeffe, and his family, our
hearts go out to them, so you know, they want
justice and they want this to be put to bed.
But if this is sort of like a petty betty,
let's get one back at Karen because she came against us,
and it's just like this pylon that's a waste of resources. Also,

(53:54):
and a waste of energy, and everybody just needs to
get on with their lives, you know, and focus on
John o'keef if the victim. This was an extraordinary man
who was taking care of his deceee sister's kids. Remember
you remember, Michael, This must have been so heart wrenching
for them all the time.

Speaker 10 (54:10):
Yeah, everything you hear about him, he's just you know,
he's just an all around great guy doing more than
he needed to do. And in that, in that regard
Karen Reid as well, she's the girlfriend of the guy
doing this, so a lot of the you know, fill
in mom duties kind of fall on her. So, yeah,
she didn't deserve this. He s certainly didn't deserve this,

(54:31):
and he sort of gets lost in the shuffle sometimes
as this case continues to roll forward. Obviously the civil case,
he is front and center because it's his folks who
are suing for wrongful death.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
So his folks, by the way, if you're just joining us,
we're here with Michael Bryant, obviously the Emmy Award winning journalist,
and he's joining us to talk about all things Massachusetts.
Karen Reid, so join us eight at eight three. One
crime to that end. And one last thing on the
Karen Reid thing. When I find a little bit interesting
about her specific is, first of all, she's a really attractive,

(55:02):
you know, accomplished woman. You know, she had a job
and she has a very loving family. But she has
sort of a tough exterior, right, She's not she's not
given warm and fuzzy. And that's like a little bit
of a thing, right, that's a presence. It's a very
familiar one. I don't get put off.

Speaker 5 (55:17):
By it at all.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
But I hear so much chatter about how unlikable she
appears and how she just doesn't seem she doesn't seem nice,
and therefore she must be guilty. And I find that
also just so unique to this case. Like if she
was like sobbing and maybe was a bit more performative
and not such a hard ass, frankly, because that's what

(55:39):
she kind of seems like, I wonder if the tides
would be different toward her. And yet you find out
these guys potentially were setting her up. And yeah, if
you're in her seat, her life is on the line.
Remember she was looking at life life, right, It wasn't like,
you know, a misdemeanor of something. It was life and
now is nothing based on the evidence that's coming forward,

(56:01):
and she's about to try to put a lawsuit on
all of the above, that little that little group, right,
Am I correct about this?

Speaker 5 (56:08):
Michael's right?

Speaker 10 (56:10):
But yeah, everybody saw in the first trial. You know
Jen McCabe, she appeared in both trials. Matthew McCabe, her husband,
Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, Nicole Albert. They were the ones
who owned the home where Johnald Quugh's body was gone.
All of these players, and remember Brian Albert was a cop, right,

(56:31):
So there's this whole blue wall kind of thing going
on and all of the issues about did they predetermine
what they wanted to do. Nobody knows for sure what
the hell happened in that house on that January night
in twenty twenty two, but everybody speculating some of the
evidence wasn't allowed in a trial about what happened in
the garage, whether there was evidence of a fight, a fall,

(56:52):
hits you know, Keith hits the back of his head
on maybe a concrete step or something, accounting for the
gash on his head. All of those things are just
But when we go to the civil trial. Here's what's
going on there because it's it's first of all, I say,
as we sit here, I hope I'm alive if it
goes to trial, because these things drag on forever into
civil MATECT. It's not a criminal trial, so it will

(57:15):
take I mean, we're talking right now as it stands
with just the defendants. Now are Karen Reid and the
two bars shoes at that night right right? That's it.
But the defendants are trying to bring in ten other
parties and those are the ones you just talked about.
They want to bring ten. Now can you imagine what

(57:35):
a nightmare that is in terms of discovery, In terms
of the parties involved. They've all got to then law
your up, so the discovery would be a nightmare. But
as it stands right now, before those ten are involved,
we're looking at the end of twenty seven for a
trial date.

Speaker 5 (57:50):
Oh my gosh, I just imagine that's all the time
and the money that you have to spend.

Speaker 6 (57:56):
Like they don't have jobs. Oh yeah, you.

Speaker 5 (57:59):
Know, Karen have a job.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
She hasn't been able to work for years because she
got ripped away from her job as she prepared to
go to prison for life for crime she now we know,
did not commit according to the verdict.

Speaker 5 (58:10):
Let me just lay the land out here. Turtle Boy
is under investigation for witness intimidation and facing trial right now.

Speaker 10 (58:18):
He's been charged.

Speaker 5 (58:19):
He's been charged, right and he's facing trial right now.
And then John o'keith's family is suing Karen Reid in
a couple of bars for wrongful death. And then Karen
Reid is suing the city of Canton and the police department.
So there's three things happening, right.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
And I think individually, she's also suing the Alberts and
those that were okay, evolved.

Speaker 5 (58:44):
I think this is accurate, right, Michael.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
I think she's bringing all the gang that was there
that night back together one last place.

Speaker 11 (58:52):
That's the plan, Okay, they would bring in Canton for
the silent supervised the investigators because you know, once they
got out to the Lea Lower and the solo cups,
they probably weren't trained very well.

Speaker 6 (59:05):
Yeah, they had the investigation Canton.

Speaker 10 (59:09):
Yeah, you know who doesn't. I mean that was one
of the first things we heard about it when I
was hosting on Law and Crime and were like, what wait,
what wait?

Speaker 2 (59:18):
Is dead your buddy is dead at the bottom of
the street. And you guys have been boozing together all night, right,
so your body your best friend, like this is their
guy and they also serve together. He turns up dead.
You think you're going to do the crime scene investigation
in solo cups. You're not going to close it off
if you think someone's to blame for your best buddy

(59:39):
and allies death.

Speaker 3 (59:41):
They took the vehicle.

Speaker 5 (59:42):
Remember there were so many there were.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
The list is egregious. It's really egregious.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
I almost don't want to repeat it because it makes
it makes it look bad for law enforcement, and we
know that's not the case.

Speaker 5 (59:53):
That's what well in this instance.

Speaker 6 (59:55):
That's another.

Speaker 10 (59:58):
That's another action they took against Canton was not protecting
the sally ports. You know, everybody now knows what a
sally port is. That's where they had the SUV and
they didn't properly protect it from who knows what kind
of contamination or what is believing they're having your man
handling the taillight, yep, you know. So that that was
a Canton responsibility. So there's lots of ctential liability for Canton,

(01:00:21):
let alone all these different individuals that we've talked about,
and that's just going to make this thing play out forever.

Speaker 5 (01:00:27):
Oh my gosh, I can't believe we're going to be
here till twenty twenty nine talking about that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
For Boston, Michael, is the greatest city of all time.
And by the way, like shout out to Boston. But
you have to be drug through this forever.

Speaker 5 (01:00:37):
Court.

Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
You were going to say something, Yeah, I just had
a question about why John O'Keefe's family is suing the
Two Bars.

Speaker 6 (01:00:46):
Oh, that's a good question. Yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:00:47):
They have a lot of states have what's called the
dram shop laws, and what it means is that our
owners and those who serve a liquor can be responsible
for overserving the patrons if that ultimately leads to or
is somehow connected to a criminal act on civil responsibility.
So they're basically saying she was drunk, that drunk driver

(01:01:10):
then killed John O'Keefe, therefore they have some responsibility.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
Wow, we're pretty boozy. Remember it was a blizzard. They're
all behind the wheel driving everywhere. Yeah, that is the scoop. Well,
stay with us. We're going to be back with Emmy
Award winning journalists. Michael Bryant and get this, you guys,
a shocking new case involving Massachusetts police officer.

Speaker 5 (01:01:33):
Please, oh my gosh, keep it right here at your
Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all the.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
Time, and we have Michael Bryant in the hot seat
with us right now. He is back Emmy Award winning
journalist and also the host of you know what, just
as Serve TV network. So make sure we're getting all

(01:02:00):
the scoop on Massachusetts and all things Karen Reid.

Speaker 3 (01:02:04):
Is that accurate?

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
So, Michael, we were talking a bit about Turtle Boy
and his relationship with you know, Karen Reid seems to
have kind of split apart a little bit allegedly.

Speaker 5 (01:02:13):
Have you heard any rumblings of this?

Speaker 10 (01:02:15):
You know, one of the things we do it justice
or of TV is no drama rama. There is such
a weird undercurrent of folks who are either pro free
Karen Reid or anti Karan Reid. Nobody seems to be
on the bubble, and so all of these folks have now,
you know, taken aim at Aiden saying, hey, after she
got acquitted, she just you know, you know, peeled him

(01:02:38):
off of her shoe and moved on, you know, everything
we've heard could be nothing, nothing further from the truth.
We've talked to her attorneys, we've talked to Aiden. We've
seen nothing to suggest that that's really the case. But
people are going to believe what they want to believe.
Sometimes for those who you know, got pounded in court
and didn't get the result they wanted or looking for

(01:02:59):
any sort oftory, and it fits to try to drive
a wedge between them, you know, sad, but maybe that's
their victory.

Speaker 4 (01:03:06):
Is this feeling like a vendetta of the Commonwealth of
Massachusetts against Karen Reid since they lost place, This seems
I don't know.

Speaker 10 (01:03:16):
I don't know if it's a vendetta or if it's
just stupidity, you know, not knowing when to give it
up and let go. And it all comes from the top.
Michael Morrissey is the DA for the moment. He's for reelection,
and most people believe he's the guy pulling the strings,
whether directly or indirectly, whether it's just by you know,

(01:03:36):
the influence he might have, or whether it's by direct order.
We know he's been involved in conversations with some of
the folks in the underlying Aidan Carney intimidation case. I mean,
this woman. You're gonna learn more about her if you
haven't already. Kate Peter singular Peter one Peter. So she's
this woman orchestrated all of the evidence that was given

(01:03:59):
to the pro secution, the communications between them, it's unbelievable
and it's part of a massive motion to dismiss that
Aiden Karney is bringing. On December fifth, they'll get rid
of their three different cases and they're gonna all they're
all kind of rolled into one in terms of the prosecution.
Just let me give you one example of what happened

(01:04:20):
under this Kate Peter's assistance and.

Speaker 6 (01:04:23):
A person well, I don't know if he's normal or not.

Speaker 10 (01:04:25):
She's not an authority, may be an agent of the prosecution. Unofficially,
you can kind of see what she's done. It looks
like they're deferring to her. They're taking the evidence she
presented to them against Aiden Carney. Here's just one example.
They go to the grand jury. They use the grand
jury in Massachusetts. I think it's an antiquated system that sucks,
but they still use it there in a lot of

(01:04:46):
states do, especially Commonwealth. So they have a grand jury
and as everybody knows the old cliche you can indict
a ham sandwich, which means the threshold is very low. Okay,
they take they, meaning the prosecution take to the grand jury.
Samples of some of Aiden Carney's shows. Turtle Boy does
the show. At the time, it was twice a week.

(01:05:07):
Sometimes it's more now. And they took the clips, okay,
and they changed the titles. The title might have been
something more innocuous than Colin Albert one of the kids.
He's the guy that used to get in fist fights
and stuff, and it was going, yeah, he's looked at
as maybe the instigator of any brawl that took place
in the garage that night, and it might say something like,

(01:05:29):
you know, Colin Albert is not a friend of Karen Reied.
Something simple like that, right, and they would change that
to Aiden Carney goes after Colin Albert. I mean something
that showed intent, because when they take it to the
grand jury and they're talking about witness intimidation, what do
you need to show needed? So somebody intended to intimidate

(01:05:50):
a witness. So they took these clips of his show,
changed the titles to make it look like they were
intentional intimidation type tactics. I mean, how do you do that?
Not only does she do it, but then it's acknowledged
and furthered by the prosecution. Everybody's dirty, So oh.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Yeah, possible to imagine, like, how do you possibly get
a fair trial if everybody is.

Speaker 3 (01:06:13):
In on it? And again that's really rare.

Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
I mean, of course there's a bad egg in every
business or you know there's that is. No one's going
to be immune to that, and certainly that happens, but
this is so many that are involved.

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
I think that's like unique to this past.

Speaker 10 (01:06:29):
And a lot of folks would say when the first
trial especially took place, that they thought that the defense
had to prove a conspiracy. You know, they were putting
all those slitnesses on and that's really what kind of
bogged the jury down and why they were hung the
first time, because they were shifting the burden. Burden is
not on the defense. They can sit there with their
hands in their pockets, it won't do anything, right. But

(01:06:50):
they had such a strong defense and they were presenting
all of these people and try to tell the story
that it was them. People were either not believing it
because how do you get that many people to you know,
tell the same story, but that really weren't that many
details to tell. And these are folks that have grown
up together. It's a very incestuous little town. King I
call it the Triangle of Terror, Dedham, Stoton, Canton. That's

(01:07:11):
where all of these things are taking place, the courts
in Debtham. The death was in Canton, and there are
other deaths going on in Stoughton just nearby. That's for
another show. But there's a very tight group and so
to me not impossible to believe that they're all in
lockstep on telling the story. But the problem was in
the first trial, the jury made the defense put on

(01:07:34):
a case they didn't have to put on. So you'll
notice a huge difference in the second trial. They didn't
go that route. They didn't put on all of those players.
They kept it very straight and made the prosecution prove
their case, which of course they filled that miserably, which
was the one.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
Of the most wild trials we've all witnessed. I mean
that trial, one after the other, witness after witness. You know,
there's such characters too, but also the fact that they
were so connected. Talk about recusing yourself. Imagine the leading
investigator on the case is also the person who was
at the crime scene, who's also the person that was
also in the house in one of the potentially accused

(01:08:08):
now and also all the boys that are like signing
the documents of evidence, we're also in this.

Speaker 5 (01:08:16):
It just seems like.

Speaker 10 (01:08:18):
The lead prosecutor, Proctor, who we know best because of
his you know, horrible texts, he didn't testify in the
second trial. How does the lead of escuar not in
testify in a trial. How does the prosecution prove his
case without doing that? They tried, they worked around him,
you know, they had Meuchanic, they had a couple other
guys that were in the mix, Tully, but.

Speaker 6 (01:08:40):
No lead investigator.

Speaker 5 (01:08:42):
What a mess? What a mess?

Speaker 4 (01:08:44):
Well, listen, we are cleaning things up here. This is
true crime tonight. We are talking true crime all the time.
And I'm Courtney. I'm here with Stephanie and Body always
and tonight we're joined by a journalist and host of
Justice Serve TV Network, mister Michael Bryant. We are talking
all things Karen Reid and all of the tentacles that

(01:09:05):
come off of her, and I would love to talk
to you about Kelsey Fitzsimmons and body, would you mind
just catching everyone up to speed because I'm having a
hard time remembering her.

Speaker 5 (01:09:17):
Yeah, for sure. So she is a police officer in
North Andover, which is also in Massachusetts. Her name is Kelly,
I'm sorry, Kelsey Fitzsimmons, and she was shot in her
home by another officer on June thirtieth of this year.
So this was during an arm confrontation where she was
being served with the restraining order by her filed by

(01:09:37):
her fiance. Prosecutors alleged that she pointed her service weapon
at the officer that was trying to serve her, and
that prompted him to shoot. She maintains that she was
feeling suicidal and then she only pointed the gun at herself.
She now faces felony assault charges and remains in custody

(01:09:57):
as her legal team challenges the court's handling of her
pretrialed attention. This all happened on June thirtieth. Now, prior
to June thirtieth, she and her fiance, his name is
Justin Alian. He's a firefighter, by the way, So this
is like a blue blood kind of family, right. Well,
they reportedly had like a really you know, horrific and

(01:10:20):
toxic history of conflict, including alleged past assaults and concerns
about her behavior, mental health, and alcohol abuse. So on
the weekend of June thirtieth, he alleges that Kelsey justin
by the way. The fiance alleges that Kelsey assaulted him again,

(01:10:40):
prompting here to prompting him to fear for his safety
and the safety of their little four month old that
she had just had. So the morning of June thirtieth,
he files for an abusive protect prevention order and seeks
custody of their child, citing concerns about you know, her behavior,
And later that day, according to the defense, he asked

(01:11:02):
her to meet at a park to reconcile, but he
didn't show up and instead moved forward with the restraining order.
It got served. You know, the police knock on the door,
but no, no, she answers, do you have any weapons?
They're all locked away, she says, Well, while she's upstairs
with another officer like gathering her things and getting her
child's like clothes together, she's you know, then there's another

(01:11:26):
officer downstairs, a shoot, a shouting's herd like shouting. They
were arguing and followed by two gunshots, and according to
Officer Noonan, who is the shooter in this situation, Kelsey
lunged toward a hidden firearm that she had. Remember she
said they were all locked away, Well, she had one
hidden and according to him, she lunged toward a hidden firearm,

(01:11:48):
pointed it at him, pulled the trigger, which, by the way,
thankfully if this is all true, misfired and began to
racket to fire again, prompting him to fire twel and
she was hit in the chest. But you know, she
was saying, of the hospital and she survived. Obviously she
survived the shot the chest. Yeah. AnyWho, that's the situation.

(01:12:09):
That's where we are. So what happened? Did they have
to keep happening?

Speaker 10 (01:12:13):
That's such a good question. Now they're saving money there
in north andover. Uh yeah, no body camp. So it
really becomes it, he said, She said no way, yeah,
which is which is frightening. And the problem with this
case doesn't even get to the merits. I mean, because
we don't know what really happened. We have no idea
she was. One of the critical issues is she was

(01:12:34):
suffering from postpartum depression. They took her gun away, they
took her badge away. She was going through that process,
and the baby was, you know, growing four months almost
five by the time this happened, and and she had
just been given back her badge and her gun and
was going to return to work on July fourth, so
just a handful of days after this happened, So it

(01:12:55):
wasn't like she was in the throes of her condition.

Speaker 6 (01:12:59):
She had been clear to go back to work, right.

Speaker 10 (01:13:01):
So we don't know how it all evolved other than
just what a normal person might think when your baby
daddy slash fiance doesn't meet you at a park. You
go home not wondering why, and the next thing you know,
cops are on your doorstep with in order to take
away your child. Traumatic enough, and she went upstairs, as
Courtney said, really to pack up some clothes, and that's

(01:13:25):
where the altercation took place. What's interesting about both Officer Noonan,
the one who shot her, you know double tap to
you know, send her mass just like they're trained. He
had been with miss Fitzsimmons, Officer Fitzimmons when she was
coming up through the department, and they both responded as
a team to this horrible mother baby murder suicide.

Speaker 5 (01:13:50):
Oh so they knew each other.

Speaker 10 (01:13:51):
They knew each other. It was beyond just oh I
see you on the roll call. No, they rode together.
And there was that one crime and one murder suicide
that they responded to that really bonded them, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:14:02):
And she was pregnant at the time.

Speaker 5 (01:14:03):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 6 (01:14:04):
So yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:14:05):
So, so it wasn't just like a casual Oh yeah,
I knew her in this, no big deal. I shot her.
I mean, this was I'm sure it was traumatic for
him and maybe he did fear for his life. Maybe
her attempt to threaten self harm looked more to him
like a threat on him.

Speaker 5 (01:14:18):
We don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:14:19):
We don't know any of that.

Speaker 10 (01:14:20):
All the stuff that we don't know yet is what
this case is ultimately about. However, what's most annoying, and
I'll say this now, it's hard to believe the judge
involved in this case at this point, which is a
bail revocation process, Judge McCarthy, Kathleen McCarthy, did something so outrageous,

(01:14:41):
so egregious, that it would make Beverly Canoni look like
a whin stop. Oh yes, here's what happened. So first appearance. Oh,
first of all, Miss Fitzimmons goes to the hospital for
fifty three days, two surgeries. She still has bullet fragments
in her back from the shoe, I guess, so she goes.

(01:15:03):
Once she's well enough, she's arranged and they set up
a release program.

Speaker 6 (01:15:08):
Not unusual.

Speaker 10 (01:15:08):
The ultimate charge against her was assault with the deadly weapon.
They had the Andover police and the prosecution wanted her
to be charged with intent to commit murder, but the
grand jury wouldn't even indict her on that. So that
tells you how low threshold is. The evidence wasn't there.
So we're talking about one solid charge that's very bailable.

(01:15:29):
It's not like she's up for murder and they're not
going to let her out. One of the conditions was
a breathalyzer called scram Sands for secured something something, alcohol
monitoring something. And so it happens every three or four
times a day where you have to, you know, you
breathe into that thing.

Speaker 6 (01:15:45):
You know, you all know that, you all know the breathalyzers.
How many times have we all done?

Speaker 10 (01:15:50):
It takes a lot of breath, right, and with the
wounds and broken ribs and lung and it was hurting her. Okay,
so she was released with that condition. She went back
in with her attorney, who was a great attorney, Tim Bradle,
and said, look, Judge, there's no issue with her violating
her release, but we want to get a modification. Can

(01:16:11):
she do urine testing something that isn't going to hurt
so much. This judge ignored everything that was said, ignored
her probation officer saying no, she hasn't violated anything. We're
here to try and get this fixed, and said, well,
we don't want her to be hurt by this breathing apparatus.
So the only way to fix things and make sure
she doesn't use alcohol is to put her back in jail. No,

(01:16:32):
so she is back in jail now, back in jail,
has been there since that second hearing, which is coming
up on a month. I did a live broadcast from
outside her correctional facility there in Chickapee, Massachusetts, which is
far west, and she's stuck in there. But when we
get a chance to talk about they've just filed an
emergency petition. The DA is supposed to respond to it tomorrow.

(01:16:54):
She may have some good news by the end of
the week. Because they're pointing out how outrageous this judge app.

Speaker 4 (01:17:00):
Oh my goodness, this is wild understatement. Yeah, stick with us,
Michael Bryant, he will be here. We're going to discuss
the delay in the Brian Walsh trial and also why
his defense is raising new questions about mental competency. Keep
it here at True Crime tonight. We're talking true crime
all the time.

Speaker 5 (01:17:30):
So Michael, what's going to happen next?

Speaker 10 (01:17:33):
Well, hopefully, you know, the petition will convince the Supreme
Judicial Court, the SJC, they call it Massachusetts to overturn
this trial judge who has ignored every rule in the book,
seemingly with the agenda to put Kelsey Fitzsimmons back in jail.
Nobody seems to understand why she's ignoring all There are

(01:17:54):
looser rules in a bail hearing or a probation or
release condition hearing, which is what this was initially. You know,
you don't have to follow all the evidentiary rules. They
had a guy on the stand, the probation officer, and
he talked about how everything was fine. They had a
letter from her surgeon saying this kind of deep breathing
for this device is painful. She said, now I can't,

(01:18:15):
I can't look at that.

Speaker 6 (01:18:16):
It's hearsay. Well, yeah, it is hearsay, but.

Speaker 10 (01:18:18):
In that context of that proceeding, it's okay to consider it.

Speaker 6 (01:18:22):
And she just ignored that. So this woman's bad news.

Speaker 10 (01:18:27):
Kathleen McCarthy, Sorry McCarthy, Kathleen McCarthy, not good.

Speaker 6 (01:18:33):
Not good.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
It's really interesting because you think the justice system and
I like to believe because I so believe in our
justice system. It's like the greatest in the world, right,
So you just assume that the rules are the rules,
and it always is so wild to me that there
is this. Yeah, you go to court, it's a wild card.
It could go so many different ways. And oftentimes whoever

(01:18:55):
has the best lawyer wins, or whoever has the best
lawyer who found the quickest loop wins. And sometimes it's
not about justice at all. You know, this woman has
been through a lot, the fact that your behind bar
is waiting for your next steps and could be killed
behind bars in process, and you know it's it's one
of those things too. You know, as a trial attorney, Michael,

(01:19:17):
I'm telling you as if you don't know, because you
help so many people in your work but you know attorneys,
the good ones really are the are the ones that
move the needle.

Speaker 5 (01:19:27):
And by the way, that's very expensive. Not everybody can
have that.

Speaker 10 (01:19:31):
That's so true. And Tim Bradle is a great attorney.
And the audio from that first hearing is so revealing
because you hear how shocked he is that all of
a sudden, this request to just change the conditions from
the breathalyzer to urine becomes we're taking your client and
she breaks down, cries right cod because she she's sideswiped

(01:19:52):
by this, this rogue judge.

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (01:19:55):
Right, So I want to talk about Brian Walsh if
it's okay. So we know that his murder trial has
been postponed as his defense raises concerns about his mental
competency and following like he was stabbed in jail. He
was recently stabbed in jail, and they're worried about his
mental health and retesting of DNA and potential undisclosed evidence.

(01:20:18):
Brian Walsh is charged with murdering his wife, Anna Walsh
on New Year's Day in twenty twenty three and covering
it up by disposing of her body throughout the city. Right.
Remember this she was planning on leaving him and moving
to Washington, d C. AnyWho, and by the way, her
body has never been recovered. He has pled not guilty
to first degree murder and related charges, and prosecutors allege

(01:20:41):
a deliberate effort to destroy evidence, including purchasing of cleaning
supplies and all these like crazy incriminating Google searches.

Speaker 3 (01:20:49):
So he was.

Speaker 5 (01:20:50):
Initially scheduled to be The trial was initially scheduled to
start in October twentieth and final pre trial hearings. They've
both been postponed owned because a judge has ordered him
to undergo a twenty day mental health evaluation at Bridgewater
State Hospital to assess his competency. What is going on

(01:21:14):
in Massachusetts?

Speaker 10 (01:21:16):
Yeah, you think that there's issues there with this guy
I've just accused of slicing up his think wife and
stuffing her in various locations around Boston.

Speaker 5 (01:21:27):
I don't know.

Speaker 10 (01:21:28):
But here's what you have to remember about a competency.
It's not an insanity, which is a very different thing
to being competent for trial. You only need two things
to understand the charges against you and to be able
to assist in your own defense.

Speaker 6 (01:21:41):
That's it.

Speaker 10 (01:21:41):
It's a pretty low standard. You could be kooky, but
still past those two qualifications. So they're monitoring him for
twenty days. I'm assuming his team asked for that because
they were up against this trial date and there's some
unresolved evidentiary issues. And I hate to mention it, but
it happens to involve the Karen Reid case.

Speaker 6 (01:22:00):
Yeah, here's what happened.

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
You'll remember all roads lead y six degrees of Karen.

Speaker 10 (01:22:07):
You remember in her trials, both of them, those federal
experts that in the second trial, I can't remember the first,
but in the second trial, Judge Canoni wouldn't let them
say FBI, so they had to say another organization or
they or some other law enforcement You know what a
ridiculous decision that was. Anyway, what happened was those guys

(01:22:28):
were brought into the original Karen Reid case because of
the Michael Procter problem. They were brought in to investigate that.
As part of that investigation, they hired the experts that
we called the crash daddies. And so they come in
as independent, you know, not in hired guns by the
defense or the prosecution. They're just independent and there and

(01:22:50):
alysis says she was never driving the He was never
hit by the car she was driving. Bottom line, I
don't care what you'd try to spin if she didn't
hit him.

Speaker 6 (01:23:01):
What are we doing here?

Speaker 10 (01:23:03):
Those guys were then used again in trial number two,
and the jury, from those who have spoken, clearly got it.
You know there was no collision. But what happened was this,
Those reports and other FBI investigative materials were turned over
to the Karen Reid defense team, right, you know, it's like,
oh mana from heaven. Well it's freemies. Now, all of

(01:23:24):
these defendants, including Brian Walsh, and there are a couple
of other cases that are similarly situated, they say, well,
wait a minute, there may be something in there for us,
because all of these officers, Proctor and Tully and they're
all intertwined, very incestuous group there. So they say, we
don't want that stuff destroyed. And the rules set out

(01:23:45):
prior to these cases was that thirty days after Karen
Reid's trial ended, that stuff's going to be destroyed. So
they all these defense teams jumped in and said, whoa
wait a minute, don't destroy that stuff because maybe some
goodies in there for us. So they had to push
it out, and they pushed the thirty days to ninety days.
That also is coming to an end on the twentieth,

(01:24:05):
the day the trial was supposed to start. And the
court has in camera looked at some of this stuff
and they've decided. They didn't tip their hat as to what,
but they said there is material in that investigative set
of materials from the FBI that the defense might benefit from.
It might be exculpatory, it might just help them in

(01:24:26):
their case. So there is something out there that they
need to see and I think, among other things, they
want more time to evaluate whatever it may be, and
that would cause them to push the trial date as well.

Speaker 5 (01:24:42):
My notes say that lawyers for Brian Walsh and other
defendants have been waiting for months and months and months
for the Norfolk District Attorney's Office to release critical evidence,
including three thousand to five thousand pieces of communications stored
in Procter's phone.

Speaker 3 (01:25:01):
Oh this is crazy.

Speaker 6 (01:25:03):
Yeah, there's a thing about I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:25:05):
It's like these tentacles that just keep you know, it's
setting though, because like you don't believe in the system, and.

Speaker 10 (01:25:13):
You know what, you know what bothers me as much
as anything. Yes, you've got these rules. Yes the prosecution
is supposed to follow them, but you know what, ultimately
the judge has to have some balls and do something true.
The judge just continues to give them more rope. You know,
Oh you need another couple of weeks, Hey have another
couple of weeks.

Speaker 6 (01:25:31):
It is. It is aggravating because what good are the rules?
You know?

Speaker 10 (01:25:35):
And we have situations with this discovery in all these
other cases where it's a year, it's more than a year,
and they just keep saying, well, we're working on it,
or they provide documents that are totally redacted, they're blank effectively,
and so it's a it's a it's a disease with
those guys.

Speaker 5 (01:25:52):
Unbelievable.

Speaker 4 (01:25:53):
I have a question, So Michael Proctor, as we talked
about he was fired, how much is his firing and
the misconduct and what came out and Karen read, how
much do you think that's going to impact kind of
all his cases that he worked on that are coming up,
and the cases of people who have been incarcerated because

(01:26:15):
of it.

Speaker 10 (01:26:16):
First, Yeah, yeah, there's no doubt if you were involved
in a case in which your client was convicted, he
was a key player. You're all over that clearly. And
as for cases going forward, you know, those that have
not been adjudicated but he was involved with, you're gonna
have the same situation. You know, you're going to call
him as a witness and you're going to go over
whatever he worked on and you know, and character shreds

(01:26:39):
because he has zero credibility. But wait a minute, October twentieth,
twenty first, and twenty second. I think I've got those
dates right. His hearing continues because he wants his job back.

Speaker 5 (01:26:50):
Of course, not goodness, not the job back.

Speaker 10 (01:26:52):
Yeah, and already testifying in that that process was remember
the first d for the Commonwealth lollie, Yeah, oh he
testified already. That was a nightmare. Proctor is supposed to
testify as well. So, yeah, he wants his job back.

Speaker 5 (01:27:10):
That's what kind of insane personality do you have to
have to have the you know, the colonies to want
your job back after this?

Speaker 2 (01:27:18):
Well sometimes propress yeah, you get like, you know, kind
of this godlike thing. Just as a practical question for
you guys, briefly, what could Karen read in retrospect have
done so you're arrested for a crime you didn't commit,
but everybody around you was like, so you.

Speaker 5 (01:27:36):
Did it, Yes he did.

Speaker 2 (01:27:38):
And you start to even like believe the you're drinking
the kool aid that they're feeding you. Meanwhile, they're the
ones plotting against you to frame you for the crime
that maybe they committed in the house. So, looking back,
just as a trial attorney, and we've all covered this
for so long, is there something that you would say,
Karen Reid? Or if anybody finds themselves in this position

(01:27:59):
like this, now you're in.

Speaker 3 (01:28:00):
The world stage, what do you do.

Speaker 2 (01:28:03):
I think that she was just disliked so much by
so many that I don't think that helped her, And
I certainly that should not be the reason for justice
is whether or not you're likable. That seems crazy. I
actually found her perfectly likable. But I wonder, you know,
what would she have done. She had a good lawyer,

(01:28:25):
she had family who stood behind her, she had conviction,
and she was brave, and she she took up and
she stood there and she took it and didn't become
a crazy person screaming at the stand like I would
have done. If someone was lying about you, person after
person after person, that's that's really hard.

Speaker 10 (01:28:41):
I think two things are happening with her that were
against her at the jump. One is one of my
axioms is never underestimate the power of likability, so the
opposite's true, never underestimate the power of unlikability. So I
think she was a cool customer, which people could enter
it as standoffish, you know, uptight, smug, cocky, whatever, and

(01:29:04):
lead them to not root for her. On the other side,
you've got a dead police officer, Yeah, so people want
to find, you know, justice for him. And she's sitting
there and I don't kind of like her anyway, and
she's not.

Speaker 5 (01:29:19):
Crying over his death. She's not like my John, My John,
My John. She's like this guy.

Speaker 10 (01:29:23):
I remember the phone calls that were played. You know,
she is screaming like a lunatic at this guy.

Speaker 6 (01:29:29):
Now.

Speaker 10 (01:29:29):
I interpreted a lot of that as as fear, not
as anger.

Speaker 6 (01:29:33):
You know, I did too.

Speaker 2 (01:29:35):
I thought she sounded kind of like she was really
concerned for him, and she sounded like she had been
out all night and was like lost her mind a
little bit, you know, And that's you can see that,
you know, she was. That was not her finest moment.
But I didn't really hear it as like a plot point.

Speaker 6 (01:29:52):
Now.

Speaker 10 (01:29:52):
In fact, if you look at the timing of the
different calls and things, she'd have to be, you know,
an Academy Award winning Meryl Streep well off the tone
of those calls after, you know, if you believe the prosecution,
she left him in the snow there twelve thirty two
and hours later she's screaming and yelling.

Speaker 6 (01:30:10):
Where are you, John? You're an asshole here.

Speaker 10 (01:30:11):
Oh I'm sorry, I can't say that you're I mean,
all of those she's just going nuts, but acting as
if she doesn't know where he is. Wow, that's amazing
acting chops. I just don't give her that credit.

Speaker 2 (01:30:23):
Yeah, And I think she was just the outsider from
this little band of boys and their wives. And you know,
they didn't really like her in the first place, and
they thought John O'Keeffe could do better. And you know,
she does have a cool way about him, but they
did have a nice relationship. I do feel bad for
the O'Keefe family, though, because she is so stoic, you know,
so she's giving stoic and they probably wanted to see

(01:30:44):
some emotion from her.

Speaker 5 (01:30:46):
And I know what I feel sorry, father.

Speaker 10 (01:30:48):
I feel sorry for them for another reason. That is,
I think they've been sold to bill of goods by
the Commonwealth, you know, first through two trials and now
they're going to see it again in a civil matter.
You know, they've been told this is what happen, happened,
and jury didn't believe it, and they're stuck. You know,
do they really believe that she had anything to do
with John O'Keefe's death or are they just in denial
on what might have really happened.

Speaker 5 (01:31:09):
Yeah, it's a tough one.

Speaker 2 (01:31:10):
You know. It's interesting about the drinking. I just don't
because I was found that surprising that they were allowed
to get behind the wheels, all of them.

Speaker 6 (01:31:17):
Oh my gosh. It seems to be just routine there.

Speaker 5 (01:31:21):
I do believe that the O'Keeffes believe Karen is guilty.
I don't think it's I don't think it's a stretch
to think that.

Speaker 10 (01:31:29):
Well, I know, if you're looking for some justice for
you know, the loss of your son, right, you know,
when the target is put on her so early and
all other possibilities are never really investigated.

Speaker 6 (01:31:39):
Yeah, I guess you're right totally.

Speaker 5 (01:31:42):
Just like all these guys too. These are her you know,
son's buds.

Speaker 2 (01:31:46):
They all came up together, So she knows all these guys,
you know, soya.

Speaker 5 (01:31:49):
So why would she think they had anything to do
with it?

Speaker 2 (01:31:51):
Right?

Speaker 5 (01:31:52):
Like it's such a tough son was like this wholesome,
wonderful cop who took care is taken care of for grandkids,
you know, like all of his friends of course, are
going to be amazing people as well. It's not a
stretch for the o'keefes to be like, obviously Karen's guilty.
Like they got it wrong, the jury got it wrong.
I just don't think it's a stretch to think that
if you're the o'keefes, right.

Speaker 2 (01:32:13):
It's so true. Well listen, Michael, Brian's so happy to
have you with us. Make sure you check it out
of course, and Justice served TV network. He's the executive
producer and host, your friend. Thank you for breaking it
down for us all things Karen, and you'll be back
very soon.

Speaker 5 (01:32:31):
And then tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:32:31):
Remember the woman who was accused of killing her fifth
husband with insulin. She's been charged, so we're going to
have that verdict tomorrow. This is true crime Tonight. We'll
see you tomorrow, Stay safe,

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