Talkback Tuesday Roulette: Kohberger Q&A + True Crime Therapy

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
Listen.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
We made it to Tuesday, Tuesday the twenty ninth, and
we have a stacked night of headlines. First up, it's
interesting update in the Epstein case. It turns out Donald Trump,
the President, says that he and his relationship with Epstein
is over and has been for years because Epstein was
stealing women from his Marlaga spa. Whatever that means. So

(00:48):
we'll be unpacking that later in the show. That relationship
apparently has been severed and was many years ago. Also,
we're going to be talking later in the week about
some of this Coburger new developments as well. I think
Body and Courtney specifically tomorrow, so make sure you're staying
with us. And then also we have a very special
licensed therapist, our very own Jessica Kaplan, is going to

(01:10):
be talking to us today about how we can kind
of keep ourselves a little bit safe in the world
and also how we're absorbing all of this true crime
content in a way that is helping and not making
us all crazy. And listen, there's been a tragedy, of
course in New York City. I know you all have
been following it, so we want to unpack that as

(01:32):
well and do so as cleanly and ethically and keep
the spirits up as possible. So body, I know you
are first up, And before we go any further, I'm
Stephanie Leidecker and a head of Katie Studios, where we
make true crime podcasts and documentaries and I get to
be here every night with Courtney Armstrong and Body move in.

(01:52):
And the best part about that is we get to
do that with you. So keep jumping in joining the
conversation eight eight eight three one. Please. You could also
just leave us a message if for some reason you
get the voicemail, and then we'll play it on the show.
Or you can also leave a talkback. Download the iHeartRadio app.
It's free top right hand corner. You press a button,

(02:13):
leave a little voice memo and boom, you're on the show.

Speaker 3 (02:17):
Or you could always hit us up on our socials.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
I know this sounds like a lot of options, but
you guys have really been taking good advantage and we
really are getting them and it means the world. At
True Crime Tonight's show for TikTok or Instagram, or at
True Crime.

Speaker 3 (02:32):
Tonight on Facebook. So listen.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
There's a lot of moving pieces this evening, and we
really want you to join the conversation.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
So welcome. I'm also a little sneezy.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
I'm suddenly a little allergic to the tsunami that might
be approaching. I don't know, so if I seem a
little snight sinusy and stuffed up, I promise it'll be temporary. Body,
Where should we start? I know this is a terrible
tale happening out a New York. I think we're gonna
start with a.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
Couple of talkbacks if that's okay, So can we get it? Bringham?

Speaker 4 (03:02):
Hi, It's Centthia from Canada. In regards to the Epstein list,
I think a list actually does exist, because what's blackmail
without a list and other information and documents like pictures
and videos that he probably has somewhere. But I do
think there's a list out there and the US government
is not releasing the information.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
But that's okay. We'll eventually find out that's right, Ah, Cynthia,
we love hearing from me, I know we do all
from us and Stephanie, that's kind of gone to your
main theory and all this right, like there's this was
all done for blackmail purposes?

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Is that only because we were told that, right? So
it's not like an idea that I concocted. But many
many years ago when Epstein in This Island all came
to light, we had started that following this very closely,
early early on, and frankly got a little spooked. And
part of that was because allegedly there was all this
videotape and we've seen photographs of people, investigators, et cetera,

(03:57):
leaving this island that Jeffrey Eppstein not only owned but
allegedly ran a sex trafficking operation out of maybe luring
very powerful people to the island that had cameras everywhere,
and if there were, say an underage girl or even
an adult aged woman who was there and incompromising positions,

(04:19):
it wasn't a good look for some very significant names.
So all along we've been hearing that this list will
get revealed, this list will get revealed, and you know,
as you guys have been following in the last couple
of weeks that kind of changed. And now we're hearing
that President Trump is saying, look, he had a bad
fallout with Epstein and that was many, many years ago,

(04:42):
and that he's not overly paying attention to this, but
part of the reason that they air quotes broke up
their friendship, which was apparently very very close, so much
so that Trump and Epstein attended Trump in Milania's wedding.
But again, that's probably a very large wedding. This is
not political sneaking. For myself, this is really not political
I mean, I'm sure there's a pox on every side

(05:04):
of this story, which is mutual distruction, mutual destruction. I
think we're all sort of galvanizing in spirit because of that,
Like I don't know who to trust or what's.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
Right and what's wrong.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
But as of you know, this evening, as we're going
to air, Trump is saying publicly on Air Force one
that you know, basically that Epstein stole girls from him.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
I don't know what stealing means.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Is that meaning that he was stealing them as employees
from his mar Alagos spa or quite literally stealing them
and trafficking them. I don't know what that means entirely.
If you have an opinion, please jump in and join us.
We'd love to hear from you. And that basically that's
the reason that their relationship severed. Keep in mind, probably

(05:49):
completely unconnected, but the main loudest victim Virginia Duffrey, who
really was at the forefront of cracking open this Epstein case.
She was also profiled in the many documentaries, including Filthy Rich,
the one on Netflix that we had the director on.
She took her own life back in April of twenty
twenty five, so we're talking just a few months ago,

(06:12):
so very res oarriage and story was that she met Epstein,
who essentially lured her from a Trump spa at sixteen
years old or something very very young.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
So that lines up with what Trump really does track.

Speaker 5 (06:28):
Yes, and in this was also this was in the
twenty sixteen deposition that Virginia gave and she said that, yeah, indeed,
she was working at mar A Lago was a summer
of two thousand.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
She was just sixteen years old.

Speaker 5 (06:43):
And when you asked before Stephanie about was Epstein luring
in what capacity? All President Trump said to reporters on airport.
One was yes, he was. He was asked, are they
hired away these young women? And Trump responded the answer
is yes they were, and yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
And were they underage?

Speaker 2 (07:03):
And again not to discriminate against adult aged women who
are also sexually assaulted and trafficked and discriminated against. I
don't you know, there's no real distinction there, But you know,
he did say underage specifically. So I think this is
an evolving story that we'll be following closely, obviously, and
if anybody has an opinion, we're so curious to hear

(07:25):
it because I find it all really confusing.

Speaker 3 (07:27):
I did too, and I don't know who to trust either,
and it's kind of scary.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, you know, it's a scary place to be true,
which is why I'm so grateful that we have licensed
therapist Jessica Kaplan upon us.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
I know, I'm excited to keep her heaving. I need
some therapy after that. How long do we have I need?

Speaker 2 (07:44):
If anybody needs therapy, feel free to call in unrelated
or related, you know, keep it clean, keep it safe.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
But you're in treasured hands.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
And I think the idea for this is, how do
we start ongoing conversations about the crime community and you know,
keeping our own mental health in check as we talk
about some of these really hard things. And having Jessica
Kaplan as an available source for us on a regular
basis is sort of the best case scenario.

Speaker 3 (08:10):
I've just held her hostage. Whether she likes it or.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Not, Yes, absolutely, she'll not an agreement emotionally speaking.

Speaker 5 (08:18):
So yeah, more on this absolutely, and listen anyone, as
Stephanie said, who does want to join, whether it's on
Epstein or crime and its impact on us in general.
It would be a great night to call. We're at
eight to eight three one Crime and now body, I
think you're going to give us an update on yesterday's

(08:38):
absolutely tragic shootings.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
Right there were two and it's really I mean it's
really sad. So a gunman opened fire at a midtown
Manhattan skyscraper housing the NFL headquarters, killing four individuals, including
an NYPD officer, before fatally shooting himself. I think we
all saw the photo of that man walking down Midtown

(09:02):
Manhattan with this big rifle kind of at his side,
just being like, how does this happen? Like? How does
he just walk down the street in New York City?
I don't know. It's very very upsetting.

Speaker 5 (09:15):
So, and it's a big to get to the building.
It's like a very long way to walk. It's a
very large pavement in front of it. So it's like you.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
Can park in front of the building and just walk in. Right,
this is New York City. This is not an easily
traversible area. So, and he traveled in crowded. His name,
the shooter's name is twenty seven years old. His name
is Shane Timura, and he's from Las Vegas. He traveled
from Las Vegas to Manhattan and he entered the three

(09:48):
forty five Park Avenue. I mean this is right in
the heart of it all, armed with an ar style
rifle and opened fire on victims in the lobby level
and then took the elevator to the thirty third floor
or before turning the weapon on himself. Apparently he took
the wrong elevator and that's where how he ended up
in the wrong part of the building. He was supposed

(10:10):
to be targeting the NFL headquarters. He reportedly is there
was a note that he suffered from CTE in blaming
the league for his mental decline. So that's some sort
of traumatic brain injury, right, the CTE. So the gunman again,
he's from Vegas. He left a three page handwritten note

(10:30):
claiming he suffered from the CTE blames the NFL for
like suppressing his issues. The NFL is located at three
forty five Park Avenue, and it's believed to be the
intended target. However, he just he went to the wrong floor.

Speaker 5 (10:45):
Wow, I mean, just completely arbitrary. This lost life. And
Mayor Eric Adams and the governor have called for stronger
nationwide gun control of Yeah, and the NFL, by the way,
has increased security, has advised its employees to work from home,
and offered grief counseling to those in need.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
And there would be many in need. Run so good.
Have you seen the Aaron Hernandez? Have you heard the story?
So good? Yeah, such a good one.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
And also he suffered from you know, so many concussions there.
Maybe there's something tangential there. So Shane to Muraw. He
grew up in LA. He played high school football in
southern California. Former teammates and coaches were like really surprised
to learn he was a suspect, claiming he never showed
any sign of aggression or even violence. Also, he was

(11:35):
never formally diagnosed with any kind of CTE or traumatic
brain injury. He had a documented mental health history, though,
so it's possible that he had these these mental health
problems completely unrelated to his football right unrelated, And he
never played for the NFL, So I don't know why
he would be blaming NFL for suppressing these injuries.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
But here we are. He entered the bill carrying this rifle.
He opened fire. Some of the victims. I think it's
important that we know their names. Yes, de dural Islam.
He was thirty six and he was an off duty
NYPD officer, father of two with another child on the way.
I mean, can't get any sadder than that.

Speaker 6 (12:17):
No.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
Al land Etinay, she's forty six, an unarmed security guard
in the building. Father. He father of two. Wesley Leapanter
forty three, a Blackstone senior marketing managing director, wife and
mother and Rudin employee. The name has not been released,

(12:38):
so it's somebody that wants to remain They want to
keep their identity private. This ar style MR rifle, which
he legally purchased in the state of Nevada. I live
in Nevada. I know how easy it is to get
weapons here. It's literally like a seven minute wait I
have is that right? Yeah? Wow, it's minutes. It's seven minutes.

(13:00):
You fill out the computer on your background. You know,
you're all your social security, your name, You're done. Well, listen.

Speaker 5 (13:09):
We'll continuing following this as more information comes out, and
when we come back we will be joined by licensed
therapists Jessica Kaplan. We will be learning how to stay
safe and stay informed and more headlines later.

Speaker 3 (13:25):
Keep it here at True Crime Tonight. We are talking
true crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
We have a special guest, a real beloved friend of
Kat and family of KT, but also one of the
smartest women I know, licensed therapists, Jessica Kaplan. And you know,
part of our discussion has always been how do we
consume this stuff on a regular basis like we all do,
and you know, we want to because I think it's
a super important and to be able to look at

(14:01):
these high stakes cases in hindsight and hopefully glean something
important from them, maybe to keep ourselves safer or things
to look out for in the world.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
And look, it's easier.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
Sometimes to see it in other lives, and it is
in our own So we want to make sure that
we're also like getting some real takeaway because these conversations
are so nuanced and changing and the world is kind
of you know, a little extra nuts, seemingly right now,
and on the heels of say, the Idaho student murders,
where it just was so horribly senseless, you know, as

(14:36):
murder is obviously, and now we're talking about you know,
more shooters even just today, and you know, how do
we sort of organize that in our heads? And I
know there's nobody better than Jessica to tell us about this.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
So welcome to the show. Jess Thank you so so much.

Speaker 7 (14:53):
I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, that's really really
nice to be here with you all. This is a
really a very important subject that deserves this kind of attention.
So I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, And like this, the first you know, baseline would be,
you know, we're all consuming true crime like now, it's
like a genre, right, and like we take that sort
of seriously in that it's not like we're like, ooh,
love to talk about murder and death. You know, it's like, wow,
these are really extreme cases that when they're boiled down.
You know, we're all experiencing versions of you know, making

(15:26):
a different life for ourselves, or taking a risk, or
something's controlling it.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
How do we trust our spidey sense?

Speaker 2 (15:32):
And I think, you know, collectively, not just women, women
and men, but you know a lot of women.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
You know, what are the rules these days?

Speaker 2 (15:41):
And how do we process some of this content, you know,
safely for ourselves and you know, ethically as we're discussing them,
because we don't want to be certuitous, right, yeah, yes.

Speaker 7 (15:54):
Well, I think a jumping off point would be to
spend a minute talking about what draws most people to
true crime, because I think that it's very natural for
us to have a tendency toward just being curious about
human behavior, and when something happens outside the norm and

(16:19):
it has something to do with the darker side of
human nature, people become fascinated by that. And I also
think there's an appeal around the problem solving aspect of
it too, you know, especially for unsolved murder cases, it's
appealing to a lot of people to follow a case,

(16:39):
and like you would do with any mystery that draws
people in, it's a puzzle to solve and I think
people find that engrossing and stimulating. Not to mention just
the idea of morbid fascination with these kinds of cases
and murders. I think that's a part of just natural

(16:59):
human beingsture that we have some fascination with some of
the morbidity of these cases. But I think especially for women,
I think we all know at this point that the
majority of true crime followers and fans are mostly women,

(17:21):
and I think there's the draw there, generally speaking, is
that women are the more vulnerable gender, and they are
the more oppressed gender, and I think that when they
are watching these true crime cases, they start to get
a sense of what they need to be doing to

(17:41):
protect themselves, learning about warning signs, the way the minds
of these criminals work, where it actually gives women a
sense of security and safety, to almost feel like they're
being educated in a way on what dangers are. And

(18:02):
I know I've talked to a few clients of mine
who really enjoy true crime, and some of them say
that they will put on a true crime documentary to
fall asleep at night, guilty and comforting to yes, exactly.
So it goes back to that feeling of if I

(18:27):
consume as much information as possible about what happened to
these other people and can get inside the mind of
the perpetrator, and I can understand warning signs and different
strategies to keeping myself safe, then I will be safe.

(18:49):
And so there's there's comfort and safety in that for
a lot.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
So it's almost like a control thing too, a little
bit is that.

Speaker 7 (18:56):
Yeah, absolutely, yes, it gives them. It gives them a
sense of being able to control the situation. And there
are a lot of positives to following true crime stories.
Like I said, it helps with education around how to
keep one safe. You know, you're you're not only are

(19:17):
you learning like valuable lessons about personal safety, but you're
figuring out what you need to do to avoid certain
dangerous situations. I even remember, you know, probably decades ago
now one OPRAH had on a private investigator who spoke
about the importance of always trying to leave the scene

(19:43):
of the crime and anytime you're being told to stay,
get in the trunk of the car, you know, come
away with me in to this room that you always
final life.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Run run, run, scream, scream, scream, Yeah, that's what you go. Advice,
you know, part close to the exit or the entrance.
These are basic things. Carry your keys in your hand
as a varapin.

Speaker 5 (20:06):
Even I swear I think we were small children watching
the same Oprah because I also remember the takeaways and
it was including if someone is shooting at you, literally
run in a zigzag. It is harder to hit a
moving target.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
So there are there's like real basic concepts.

Speaker 7 (20:23):
Yeah, and to your point Stephanie before about like paying
attention to your spidey senses. This is another example is
when you start to feel like you're in danger, pay
attention and act.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
So listen to listen to your body, listen to those
instincts that we have inside of us. Right, this is
your correctingman, and iHeartRadio. I'mbody move in here with Courtney
Armstrong and Stephanie Leidigger and we are so lucky to
be joined by miss doctor Kaplin. I should say miss
what a Oh my goodness, Kathlin.

Speaker 7 (20:54):
I'm a licensed therapist is my title? No, my clients
call me doctores even though technically it's like a McNair
and I take it as a compliment.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
Well take it as one. Yes, if you want to
weigh in and give us a call, because listen, this
is like a conversation. I always talk about why are
women so interested in true crime? Yeah, because when you
go to crime con it's all women, it's just women
after women. Give us a call eighty eight thirty one
crime or hit us on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio
app and we have a talkback right now.

Speaker 8 (21:25):
Hear the does learning about true crime and hearing a
lot of true crime stories make you guys feel more
anxious in your day to day life or more educated
and prepared?

Speaker 3 (21:35):
Such a great question and so on point thinking.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
For myself, I definitely feel less anxious, and I can
say working in true crime has brought me a lot
of peace and ease.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
And I know that sounds wildly nuts.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
That's why Jessica Kaplan is going to it's like a
flame by screwy brain.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
But no, for me, I feel like I know the
worst of the worst that can happen. And because I
feel like I know the worst thing that can happen,
I'm prepared for it. Yeah, exactly, I don't know it,
and I kind of like more outloading trauma. I don't
know true.

Speaker 5 (22:09):
No, And there are some keys like you were saying
Jessica about also figuring things out. There's a settling thing
of like, Okay, this is how this one piece of history,
call it was put together. Okay, I can understand that
and move on. So there is a part of that
as well.

Speaker 3 (22:26):
I think, yeah, and.

Speaker 7 (22:28):
I think what you're saying around so, I think different
people have different responses to following true crime or any
kind of tragedy in the media. I think for some
people it definitely reduces anxiety. And the way their anxiety
operates is it's a signal. It's like a little alarm
bell that goes off that they need to be paying

(22:51):
attention to something they need to prepare for, something that
they're not totally prepared for, and the anxiety is just
a little messenger rising up and letting you know that
you need to do so. So paying attention to the
clues and the information coming from these true crime cases
can help women mostly feel knowledgeable, prepared, so that they

(23:17):
feel like they can keep themselves safe in those situations,
and it reduces their anxiety. I think there are other
people who find their anxiety ramping up as a result
of consuming too much true crime are really just world
news in general. I mean we can really tie the
two together. And so you just one needs to just

(23:40):
pay attention to how they're feeling after they've consumed some
kind of true crime information or global tragedy, you know,
news events. You know, are you having trouble sleeping? Are
you eating less? Do you feel exhausted and drained after

(24:03):
you've consisted normal day media. I know for most of
us now right, it's true, it is true, but it
can lead to like hypervigilant paranoia. So it's important to
be staying on top of and having an awareness of
how you're feeling. And if you're starting to experience any

(24:25):
of these symptoms, that is a sign that you need
to be managing your consumption of these news stories in
a different way. It doesn't mean you have to completely
eliminate it, but you need to set boundaries with yourself
around your usage. You know, taking breaks, grounding yourself after

(24:46):
you've consumed something that is disturbing, you know, exercise, eating, rate,
sleeping while breathing, exercises, meditation. All of those things are important.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
All those are really important facts that we we need
to consider ourselves as to crank content creative as well.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, and tonight we have a very special guest, licensed
therapist Jessica Kaplan is here to kind of unpack with
us this bigger question about how do we digest all

(25:23):
this dark content safely for our own health and also
what its are we scratching by absorbing so much of
it and kind of what does it say frankly about
us and also the stories that we're covering.

Speaker 3 (25:38):
So we want to hear from you.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Make sure you jump in join the convo eight eight
eight three one crime. You could also hit us up
on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show on Instagram
and TikTok or at True Crime Tonight on Facebook and
also the talkback. So if you just download the iHeartRadio app,
it's free top right hand corner, push a button and boom.
You were on the show sharing your opinion, and we

(26:01):
really want to hear them because this is heavy stuff,
you know, coming up off of the Brian Coburger trial,
for example, where or non trial, I should say, when
there's a man who really murdered for people without any
known connection, how do we make sense of that? Or
what we're seeing just in midtown Manhattan today where somebody

(26:23):
who has you know, a concussion or two who maybe
has an issue with the NFL, takes a rifle into
a midtown skyrise and just murders people. Listen and again, also,
and I've learned this from Jessica Kaplan, these are rare instances.
So just to make sure we like underscore that exclamation

(26:43):
point where we're looking at these very strange, scary, big
cases to really glean some things that we can all
apply to our regular life. So I did hear a
quote that it is more in this again Scott Bond,
who is a serial killer expert. He has said that
it is more likely to die from a vending machine
falling on you than you are at the hands of

(27:05):
a serial killer. So yes, we are talking about massacres
and loan shooters and active shooters and these very big things,
but in reality, those are rare events. And you know,
I don't want to you know, we don't want to
perpetuate like constant chaos anyway, So jump and join the convo.
I promise to bring it back to jess after this talkback.

(27:26):
Let's go to that.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
First.

Speaker 6 (27:28):
Hey, ladies, I love your guys' show, and I just
want to say you guys do such a great job
at delivering the cases in such a respectful and factual manner.

Speaker 5 (27:39):
Can you kind of.

Speaker 6 (27:40):
Unpack love bombing and what we can look out for
in partners so that we don't get love bombed ourselves?
Thank you, guys?

Speaker 3 (27:51):
What a gage rate? A question? And I think such
a great question for professionals. That's awesome. I love being
loved bonds, It's my favorit. Yeah. Do you know what
is kind of exciting because it's a lot of attention
that Listen, I'm the person that doesn't get any attention.
Like that is not true now, I know romantically, I know,
I mean, like, I just I don't so like when

(28:13):
I'm getting love bombed. It doesn't happen very often. But
when it has happened, I've been I've fallen victim to it.
Who hasn't it feels you know good?

Speaker 4 (28:20):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (28:20):
Because it feels good. And then and then I'm like,
oh wait a minute, that's a red flag. So what
do you if in your professional advice? What is love bombing?
What does it look like? What's an example?

Speaker 5 (28:31):
Sure?

Speaker 7 (28:31):
So to start, I want to just jump off of
what you were just saying about how it feels good,
and it's important to note that generally speaking, our spidy
senses actually are activated when we are being love bombed,

(28:51):
because it usually does feel like an inappropriate amount of
attention and affection being the stowed on us at such
an early stage of a relationship that for most people
they feel that it's something strange. Our intuition is telling

(29:13):
them this is a lot for how little we still
know about each other. And it's important to keep in
mind that the love and attention and affection that a
person is bestowing on you at early stages in the
relationship is not genuine. It's a strategy. It's a manipulation

(29:34):
tactic because the goal of the love bomber is to
establish intense attachment as quickly as possible so that they
can then start their control tactics. At the end of
the day, it is all about control, and often times

(29:57):
the love bombers have narcissistic traits or they are abusers
that want to create a power dynamic where they start
to make the partner feel dependent on them, attached to them,
and they start to isolate them all the other abusive

(30:18):
coertive symptoms start to show up. So I try to
really encourage my email clients that when it is an
early stage of relationship and they start to experience these
examples of love bombing. So maybe it's lavish, expensive gifts

(30:43):
very early in the relationship, fancy dinners, wanting to take
you traveling to you know, beautiful places, expensive hotels starting,
I mean even.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
Simply like texting all day, like yeah, constant times.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
Like we're hearing cases of people who get don't be
done the texts. It's like the dentist, for example, It's like,
who has three hundred texts in a day. But again,
if you're feeling lonesome or maybe not totally alignment with
your best self and somebody's texting you four hundred times
in a day, that.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
Telling you how great you are, they are with you,
they've never felt like this before. You know, those kinds
of things are warning signs of love bombing.

Speaker 6 (31:23):
Ye.

Speaker 7 (31:23):
Yes, And to your point, Stephanie, I think that the
women who are susceptible to this and are vulnerable to
this are women who have not had secure attachment in
their their childhood relationships, their caregiving relationships, so they're they're
usually insecurely attached people and they are looking to be

(31:49):
validated by someone and to finally be seen as worthy
by somebody, and so they're the most susceptible to love
the thing me.

Speaker 3 (32:00):
It happened to all of us.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
Who hasn't I'm sure every single person male or female
listening has had a hint of this.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
Right.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
By the way, if you have a story you want
to share, please call us eight eight eighty three to
one crime. But also don't feel ashamed if you've you know,
found yourself a little in over your head, because you know,
it is like a serotonin kick. I would assume if
someone's telling you how perfect you are, beautiful you are,
or how destined this is in record time, you know, listen,

(32:28):
there's probably exceptions to that rule, but as a rule,
you know, relationships take you know, a moment to get
to know one another. And it is a manipulation tactic
that you say that so clearly, jess it makes perfect sense.

Speaker 5 (32:41):
Yeah, I mean, Jessica on when you had said that,
it's It can often be narcissists who are doing the
love bombing is part of sort of the that love
bombing that you reciprocated, because once someone has showered you
with so much adoration, it can be a lot easier
to fall for that persons, you know, who thinks you

(33:01):
are so wonderful as like, ah, they see me for
how perfect I am and now they two in my eyes?

Speaker 3 (33:09):
Is there any of that?

Speaker 7 (33:11):
Yes? And I think that a narcissist is looking to
be the one calling the shots in the relationship. That's
their top priority is to be the only voice in
the relationship, and so.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
Isolate you from other people too, right, yes, yes.

Speaker 7 (33:31):
Right, And so in the love bombing stage, they are
preparing you to They're they're creating that that power differential.
They're preparing you to lose any established boundaries that you
might have for yourself in your autonomy in the relationship

(33:54):
and to you know, sort of like those rose colored glasses. Yeah,
for all of us in a new relationship, it's that
honeymoon phase and we all experience as normal as natural. Eventually, though,
the relationship starts to settle down, the rose colored glasses
come off, and hopefully there's something of substance there that
keeps the relationship going beyond the honeymoon phase. Then you know,

(34:18):
the narcissist who is love bombing is rushing through that
phase because he wants to be in a position of
power as quickly as possible, and if he can get
her to kind of see everything through those roast colored glasses.

(34:40):
He starts to isolate her, pulster away from family, She
starts to lose her her boundary making and the relationship.
She starts to believe him to be the person who
knows best, knows her best, knows what is best for her.
And suddenly now he is the one in control, which

(35:01):
is how narcissists operate, is by controlling others. That sort
of what's referred to as the narcissistic supply and whatever
capacities that he can gain control over his partner, that is,
that's what that's like his oxygen.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, that's what's activating him, you know, like you know,
he's activating in others this place of vulnerability and dependence maybe,
but it's activating a sense of power probably in the
love Bomber.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
We actually have a quick talk back too. We can
go too.

Speaker 9 (35:35):
Hey, y'all, it's Stephanie again.

Speaker 8 (35:37):
I love y'all for real.

Speaker 9 (35:38):
Skis sorry anyways, just timing in on the grooming topic.
What do y'all think about using the term coercive conditioning
super vierious to hear what your thoughts are on this. Also,
just want to let y'all know the show is awesome.
I love everything about it and each.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
One of y'all.

Speaker 9 (35:57):
Also, I've listened to y'all seven days a week.

Speaker 5 (36:00):
That could.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
That is the sweetest. We love you, right, I remember her,
I absolutely remember her. Yeah, we love coersive conditioning. That's
a so what we've been trying to do for those
who don't know, we're trying to come up for a
separate term for grooming on adults, adults who are capable
able minded. I'm not sure how to say it, so

(36:22):
forgive me if I'm saying it wrong.

Speaker 5 (36:25):
Is one thing we can kind of area baseline that's perfect.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
So this coercive conditioning that's actually pretty good. That's a
really actually a good one.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
And we're joined by our very special licensed therapist, Jessica Kaplan,
who's keeping all of our heads on and she's going
to be coming back regularly, we're hoping for once a week,
whether she knows it or not. So if you have
some questions for Jessica Kaplan, please call us, leave us messages,

(36:56):
or you could also find her at Jessica Kaplan at
therapy dot com.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
Very common catchy great Jessica Jessica kaplantherapy dot com. Did
I say, Jessica, you said at like an emailsress the
music that's my favorite KIDSA Kathlinthapy dot com at the club?

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yes, so okay, question Courtney, I know you had a
burning one for Jessica.

Speaker 5 (37:20):
I do have a burning question. So prime is so pervasive.
You know, even in schools there are as as young
as kindergarten. There are you know, drills of what to
do if someone comes to intrude your school. How do
you talk to kids or teens who are either overhearing
stuff or ask you questions?

Speaker 3 (37:40):
What is the process?

Speaker 7 (37:42):
I love this question. It's so incredibly important to talk
about this and to have an understanding of the best
way to approach these subjects with children. Obviously, it's it's
age dependent. Let's start with the younger kids, not teenagers,
so let's just say school age children. I think it's

(38:03):
important to let the children's questions lead the discussion. If
they're asking the question, it means they're ready for the answer.
That does not mean that you give all of the
disturbing details in your answer. You keep it short and

(38:24):
sweet and direct, and you know, you know your own kid,
so you also haven't a general understanding of, you know,
their emotional maturity. But I tend to answer the question directly,
just one or two or three sentences, and wait. If

(38:45):
they ask a follow up question, it means they're ready
for more information, and you answer that specific question and wait.
If they don't have a follow up question, that means
they've gotten all the information that they're ready to hear,
and you stop the conversation there. And I think that's

(39:06):
just a general way to handle the school aged questions.
I think for teenagers it's a little different because they
are more emotionally mature. They're seeing so much through social media,
they have access to all the gory details of all
of these cases, and so I think with teenagers it's

(39:30):
more about having a conversation asking them how they're feeling
about it. Do they have questions, helping them develop critical
thinking skills around the media that they're consuming. I mean,
by the way, this isn't just for teens, this is
for adults as well, Like thinking about where the information

(39:54):
is coming from, what the news outlet is. Is it
a falacious news out lit or something more balanced and
neutral and respected and to ask questions about are we
hearing about facts or are these just people's opinions? You know,
get helping them develop some of those critical thinking questions

(40:20):
is really important. And then you also help them figure
out how to step boundaries for themselves.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
So good jess.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Listen, Jessica Kaplin, first off, crazy for you.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
We love you.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
Thanks so much for your time and giving us a
straight She's going to be back next week. This is
true crime tonight. We're talking true crime all the time,
and a special thanks to jess Kaplan for joining us

(40:53):
for the first hour. If you've missed any of the
show so far, zero stress, you can catch it right
after as a podcast, and also please jump in eight
eight eight three one prime. We want to hear your
comments and some of your thoughts on the topics. We've
been discussing lots of heating up on the Epstein front,
so we will be tracking that, probably more on that tomorrow,

(41:13):
but it does seem like it's heating up, so that
has new developments. And also this dopey dentist, the dentist
in Colorado who has been accused of murdering his wife,
mother of six, with tear drops. The kind Eye drops,
I should say, which is you know, insane and las

(41:34):
cyanide cyanide you know, laced tear drops, a little slow Paine,
little desk, this guy and how do we keep ourselves
you know safe Jess, and then also some headlines.

Speaker 3 (41:47):
So before we even go further, let's start with a talkback.

Speaker 10 (41:49):
Hey, Stephanie, Body and Courtney. This is Chelsea from Anchorage, Alaska,
and I just wanted to say that I absolutely love
you ladies. I was so excited when I found this
podcast because I listened to and Idaho podcasts and I
absolutely love listening to you all. While I don't want
to turn this into anything political, because I think we
all kind of need a break from politics, I do

(42:12):
want to make a comment about something I mentioned last
night about mental health, and what I really wanted to
say is that if anyone is listening and they feel
like they're struggling and they're scared to reach out to somebody,
don't be It's hard depending on what your situation is,
but keep reaching out. Someone will reach back, and someone
will help you because at the end of the day,
it's never worth your life or someone else's life, and

(42:35):
things can and will get better as long as you're
willing to put in the work and continue fighting and
being the strong person that you can be. Anyways, thanks
ladies as of all that you do. Can't wait to
continue listening.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
It's like she knew what we needed to hear, Chelsea.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
Unbelievable. Thank you so much for the talk back. And
by the way, we all want to make that no
one's alone. We have each other and if you can
hear our voices, you're you know, in hug distance emotionally speaking.
Come on, so you know we can kind of trudge
through just about anything and this is a safe zone.
So please, you know, share your thoughts, share your feelings,

(43:12):
you know, hit us up. We know we'll keep things
either confidential or what have you. But you're not alone,
is the bottom line.

Speaker 5 (43:19):
That was so beautiful and well said, and I just yeah,
I was.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
I'm really touched.

Speaker 5 (43:25):
And keep reaching out is such a great message because
we really all need to So thank you for your
voicemail very very much.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
Yes, so we have some headlines, Courtney, was that right?

Speaker 5 (43:38):
We have headlines, Yes, we do. So start with a
little cryptocurrency.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
So yeah, bros. Yeah, So the.

Speaker 5 (43:48):
Two cryptocurrency investors, they're accused of kidnapping and torturing an
Italian man. This happened in a luxury Soho townhouse. So
they were granted a million dollar bail in. They're each
under strict conditions that including bands on paying in crypto,
which is kind of interesting as a.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
I've never heard of a clause like that. Actually, yeah,
that's interesting even though it so you can buy stuff
with crypto, you can certain vendors, you can produce your
wallet and you know, scan a QR code and pay
with like bitcoin or ethereum or whatever, doge coin, whatever
is out there, you can pay with it. And they're
apparently banned from paying with crypto.

Speaker 6 (44:30):
Is that?

Speaker 3 (44:31):
Yeah? Yes, that I have never heard of that clause never.

Speaker 5 (44:35):
No, I haven't haven't either. Is it a good thing?
Probably in their.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
Case, they're probably because they need to freeze their assets, right,
I'm guessing. I think it's a good guess.

Speaker 5 (44:44):
We'll probably listen as things as things continue to go,
we'll definitely follow them as they unfold. But this happened
in early May, so we talked about this. Actually not
for a while because there hasn't been court movement, but
back early May, there was an Italian cryptocurrency man who
allegedly was lured to this townhouse very very fancy a

(45:05):
ton of cash every month, and it was by these
two crypto bros.

Speaker 3 (45:10):
And he was tortured.

Speaker 5 (45:11):
It was approximately over seventeen days, and it was all
in an effort to get his bitcoin password for goodness sakes,
and Body thankfully schooled us on a lot of bitcoin
in and out. What the prosecutor's allege is that abuse
involved electroshocks, pistol whipping, chainsaw wounds, burning water, borning, and

(45:33):
threat against Yeah, like.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Re bordering this guy over his cryptocurrency. It's unimaginable all
of these things.

Speaker 5 (45:41):
It's kind of like they sat there and just for
seventeen days, you know, thought of every scary movie they'd
seen since middle school and said, let's try this one
and that one.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
And what be saw some of the videos? Remember the
videos released, Yes.

Speaker 5 (45:55):
And I want you to explain them, Body, but for
people to keep in their head. The defenses arguing that
it was a consensual hazing. It all happened during a
party like environment, and this guy.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
Was in It might have started that way, you know,
considered it might have started as a like lighthearted you know, thing,
and it definitely turned not so light hearted.

Speaker 3 (46:19):
Well, in the video, they're kind of lounging around and he's,
you know, the victim is like kind of like laying
on the couch, but the other guy that's laying, you know,
on the other side of the couch has got a knife,
so it doesn't really necessarily seem all that cozy cozy.
And in some of the videos he's being he's nude
and he's on the floor on all fours being walked

(46:40):
like a dog. I don't know, listen, it didn't I.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
Could like the worst party ever if this party, yeah,
thanks anyway, cut me out.

Speaker 5 (46:52):
Humiliation and like you said, with a knife, if someone
with a knife says smile, you're gonna go ahead and smile.
By the way, I did a little fact checked, and
the bail was set with the stipulation and the cryptocurrency
was prohibited due to concerns over tracing.

Speaker 3 (47:10):
So yes, it was. So that's the thing that the
blockchain is very transparent. It's a transparent ledger, that's what
blockchain is. But you would be able to trace it,
but you're not going to know who the end receiver is.
It's just a it's just an address. It doesn't really
tell you who it is, so that makes sense. That
makes sense to me.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
That is wild, and I guess it doesn't totally make
sense to me. I'm embarrassed to admit I don't have
any cryptocurrency, nor do I know much about bitcoins. It
always sounds a little extreme, but basically it's not traceable,
so therefore people are investing into it so they don't
have to pay taxes or be held to any federal
or state laws as you would with regular cash.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
I assume, right, yeah, and you know, well, and not
only that, but you know, it's growth, it's investment right now,
by you buy a coin at one penny, and then
you buy a lot of them, and then it goes
up to two pennies and you've just helped your money.
Just don't cash money at home.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
That's why a lot of drug dealers allegedly use, allegedly
allegedly allegedly drug muling. You know, cryptocurrency is kind of
one of the big ticket pieces of that therefore hard
to crack.

Speaker 5 (48:17):
Right, Cryptocurrency like like big honks of physics. My mind
is just not made to hold them. Even though you've
described it ten times body, it's we're very smart.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
Don't underestimate our ability to count coins, and you are smart.

Speaker 3 (48:33):
You're listening to True Crime tonight where we talk true
crime all the time. I'm body moving and I'm here
with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong and we're kind of
going over today's top headlines and true crime. If you
want to weigh in, give us a call at eighty
to eight thirty one Crime or use the talk back
feature on the iHeartRadio app. And I'm going to get
into the Dope Dentist today, Body tell us. All right,

(48:57):
So the dope Dentist. The closing arguments began today, right,
so let me pull up my little notepad here. Just
for the clarity.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
It doesn't appear that the dopey dentist himself his defense
not so dissimilarly to puff Daddy in his recent trial.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
As well, he didn't call any.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
Aniriens witnesses like it was like the defense had no
nothing to say in exchange nothing, which is a tactic.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
Right, it's a tactic. It could show a sign of confidence,
right m hm. So today was closing arguments and jury
deliberations started. They deliberated for four hours already, which I'm surprised.
I thought he would be like, I'm too, I'll be yes,
I truly am Yeah. So he the dope dentist James Craig.
He stands accused of fatally poisoning his wife, Angela forty

(49:48):
three years old. She passed away. She is also the
mother of his six children, and he used cyanide and
eye drops to do so. He put like cyanide drop
in her milkshakes in the morning, her protein shakes in
the morning, you know, like she's going to go for
a walk. He gives her like a workout shake. She
drinks it. Now she's poison assignment.

Speaker 6 (50:08):
Good.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
So, prosecution argued in their closing arguments that you know,
James Craig allegedly wanted out of this marriage, but didn't
want a divorce due to financial reasons. They were already
he was already spending what thousands of dollars on his
sugar babies, right because he met a lot of his
affairs on these sugar daddy websites and his public image.

(50:29):
You know, he's a he's a dentist. Those you know,
he's got a good reputation. These are you know, bad,
bad optics to get to get a divorce, especially you
know in his his faith. He's a later day saying
it's it's optically you know better to stay married. So
they're saying that was the motive. They're saying the evidence,
they have all these searches like how to make murder

(50:51):
look like a heart attack, and there are so many
examples of these searches. I would be on the show
until the end of time reading them all.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
It's under believable how many times he had I mean excessive,
I mean being once or twice when your wife is
now dead, it would be suspicious, let alone.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
Right right. And then of course also he he offered
like three different versions of what happened. First, he said
that she committed suicide. Remember he said she's unstable and
she's been wanting to commit suicide. Then he said that
he helped her and she set him up. So now
he's blaming her for setting him up. And they argued

(51:33):
that this consistency shows that there were This inconsistency shows
that he's lying because the truth doesn't change. Right now,
the defense is saying it was a broken marriage, it
wasn't murder. The defense said James was not a bad
husband or was a bad husband but not a murderer.
The marriage was troubled but loving. There was no financial
incentive to kill her. The insurance was mutual, bills were paid,

(51:56):
and the home was owned outright, So their argument is
there was no financial burden on the family. So one
of the motives that the prosecution is using is invalid.
They're saying that Angela's mental health in her journals. Again,
we covered some of her journals yesterday on the show
Yesterday You miss it, you can download the podcast and
listen to that, And nowhere in the journals does it

(52:17):
say that she's suicidal in any way. So I'm not
sure what their argument is there.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Well, it's probably depressing when you have six children's husband
is gallivanting with a million different people at the same time,
and she's aware of it, and he's like hiding under
faith like he is a devoted Mormon. I'm pretty confident
that is not something that they holed up with great esteem,
as you you know, betraying your wife trying to kill

(52:42):
her multiple times. Then didn't he use that as an
excuse that he wanted he was so worried how sad
she would be if he took his own life that
he figured he'd kill her first. I mean, this guy
has a real narrative in his mind and an ability
to to make himself feel okay.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
So the other thing that they're saying is that there
was a flawed investigation that the defense is claiming that
it was biased. The medical examiner allegedly made assumptions based
on limited info and nobody could prove to them how
or when Angela invested this substance. So they're really putting
all the blame on Angela, which I don't really know

(53:21):
if is a really good defense strategy. I would love
to maybe ask Jared Farantino, who right, what he thinks
of that strategy. But yeah, keep it, you know, keep lists.
We're going to keep talking about this. We're going to
find out what happens after the jury is decided, and
stick around and listen.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
It's our favorite thing. We're doing talkback Tuesday, So we're
going to be a little wild and we're going to
do a little talkback roulette, which is basically Sam and
Adam in the control room are going to just tee
us up with some talk ups or talkbacks from you guys.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
And we haven't heard these, by the way, go ahead, guys,
you go surprise. Sam and Adam are picking these. We
have no idea what they are. I'm like, I'm kind
of nervous, but I'm also listen. Tah has not here,
our producers not here, So we are like Lord of
the Flies right now in Oscar.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Is hopefully listening in the car right now. So if
you want to join us too, feel free to call.
But yeah, we are running the asylum.

Speaker 3 (54:16):
The animals run the zoo, and so we kind of
want to have fun with us. We want to go
all together. What do we have, guys, let's throw one
at us all right?

Speaker 8 (54:27):
Hey, True crime and True crime friends, it's April again.
Thanks for the shout out before on the dentist Mike.
Question on the coburger case is what do all those
findes go to? Inquiring minds want to know, and I'm
kind of offended that the family's only got five thousand.
Can you enlighten us a little bit more on where

(54:47):
those funds go and fines and penalties and things. Thanks,
love you guys.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
That's such a great question. And I don't think we act,
you know, maybe tomorrow whenever. Jarrett Farantino is on. We
can ask him because Hi, April, that's a great question.
And it's so because it's really like a thousand per murder. Yeah,
it ended up being like two hundred and fifty grand.

Speaker 3 (55:08):
But who paid that?

Speaker 2 (55:09):
Like his parents who have been through enough and have
had to file bankruptcy in the past, Like that's that
doesn't seem fair.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
He's an adult. We're not on the hook for that.
He's an adult. They're not on the hook. I can't
imagine we're gonna have to ask We're gonna have to
ask your Yeah, I don't know, but the job.

Speaker 5 (55:25):
I'm just looking up a little bit of our notes
and yeah, the judge find it is coburger. So where
this money is supposed to come from, I don't know,
but yeah, fifty thousand per victim, as well as a
civil penalty of five thousand dollars for each victim.

Speaker 3 (55:41):
So and then ten thousand I think for the burglary charge.
I think something I like the pay per.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
View idea where he has to, you know, answer America's
questions strapped up to a lie detector test for cash,
and that money goes to the victims.

Speaker 3 (55:56):
I'd be okay if it was strapped to an electric chair.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
Yeah, I mean, and then he I say answer, and
I said, yeah, I think we're onto something here, April,
keep it coming.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
Answer. We're going to put a pin in that. April.
I hate, I hate that we don't have the answer
because I love to have the answers to everything. But
I don't know the answer to this question. So we're
going to put a pin in that. I hope you
don't mind, and ask Jarrett next time he's on, and
I think he's coming on soon, so we will. We
will ask what do they have next? With one gentlemen.

Speaker 11 (56:24):
Hi guys, my name is Renee. I live in southern
California and absolutely love your show. I was listening about
the delay Maxwell situation and I just don't understand why
all of the said and she's giving up this information.
Shouldn't she have given this up when she was going
to trial? And curious minds would like to know, thank you.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
That's a great questions, give me way out.

Speaker 5 (56:50):
I think that's why now. I think I think she
and her attorneys they see a potential opening, and you know,
in this moment, she wants immunity in order to give
more of this information up and to your first question
of shouldn't she have come clean? Yeah, as a good human,
I agree with that.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
I mean, listen, I get this is the confusing part
that is sort of the unanswerable riddle here. But if
the person in charge, which in this case happens to
be President Trump, if he's has his former lawyer who's
the second in command at the DOJ, doing the questioning
to Geleen Maxwell to get these said names from her

(57:33):
in exchange for immunity. I don't know, something piece of
that doesn't seem completely on the up and up, just
on its nose. I'm not making the suggestion that it
isn't on the up and up, and yeah, why didn't
she give those up earlier? And by the way, on
the flip of that, this is not again not political,
because I have to assume if the previous Democrats had,

(57:54):
you know, information that Trump was involved in this in
some way, chances are they would have aired that dirty
laundry too as soon as they had it. Or is
it just too steeped in everybody's messy pockets that I
don't trust any of it.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
I don't trust any of it. I really don't know.

Speaker 5 (58:11):
And I actually feel like no information will be forthcoming
because what Guleaene Maxwell and her representation, they only offer
to testify again before Congress with major, major conditions. You know,
it's immunity, it's delaying timing before she agreed to appear,
and she insists at her deposition, for example, not take

(58:34):
place in the prison where she is. She demands the
questions in advance to avoid surprises. She max Gleen Maxwell
wants Congress to schedule her testimony only after there's been
a resolution of her Supreme Court appeal and any upcoming
habeas petition. So the Oversight so those are all her

(58:56):
large stipulations, and the Oversight Committee they have rejected granting
immunity or clemency as a condition for her cooperation.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
Throw away the key key. She is a convicted sex offender.
She has done really unspeakable things. There's a certain place
in you know where for a woman who would allow
young women or any woman of any age. I don't
care if it's one hundred and fifty year old woman
to lure her into a circumstance that is unsafe. I mean,

(59:29):
it's really it's this is tough stuff and we should
not overlook that. Because she's going to toss out some
sexy names.

Speaker 12 (59:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
So instead of a talkback for the next one, I
kind of wanted to read a DM. We got it.
That's a oh yeah, can I can I? And by
the way, Oscar is listening. So we are in trouble.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
Okay, we are always We love you, Oscar.

Speaker 3 (59:52):
Okay. So here is a here, here's a DM that
we got on X. Question. Coburger was charged with burglary.
Did he take something? Why not breaking? And entering? Why
not breaking because the door was unlocked? Question mark. So
that's a really good question. And in Idaho, I looked
up the statute when all this happened, and we risk

(01:00:14):
the charge question. Yeah, I'm curious, and I looked up
the so next to the charging document there's like the
number like the breaking violation Idaho statute three forty one
whatever it was. And I looked it up at the time,
and in Idaho, entering a domicile that you are not
supposed to be in is automatic burglary. So it's just
a standard charge. He didn't take anything, he's not being

(01:00:35):
charged with taking anything, but entering a building that you're
not supposed.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
To be in is automatic burglary. Interesting as opposed to
that being it's pretty simple exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:00:44):
Yep.

Speaker 5 (01:00:45):
And it doesn't have to be because I might have
been looking at other statutes because what I had done
in some supercursory research a while ago, said that burglary
is a charge. It involves entering with the intent to
commit a crime. You don't, Yes, And that's the important place.
With the intent to commit a felony out, Yes, that
is the important piece.

Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
I actually left that on. Wait can I hear that
once more?

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Because I think this is what Riley was teaching us
about earlier today. So if I walk, if somebody goes
into a building that they know they're not supposed to
be in with the intent to commit a felony or
first of all, would never happen here in the studio
because Yogi or Propy would never allow.

Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
That's right, getting the front door. He doesn't like the way.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Interesting point now that Yogi has spoken, Listen, they do say.
One of the best distractors against a home invasion or
an intruder attack is a small dog.

Speaker 3 (01:01:39):
Just putting it out there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
A small dog because they can be a little bit
wild and hard to maintain, hard to catch, and hard
I can testify to that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
I can testify to that. Yeah, you an opinion. He
does not like anybody Yogi's keeping it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Bring it Yogi. So all that to be said, interesting question. Yeah,
it's a very very.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
With the intent. But here's the thing you guys today,
this is kind of related. Today the Idaho Statesman, which
is like kind of the paper one of the main
newspapers and news organizations in Idaho that's been covering this case,
and they had a panel today of a bunch of
their journalists. It was really interesting. It's on their YouTube,
the Idaho Statesman, and one of the journalists mentioned that

(01:02:24):
he spoke with Bill Thompson, who is the prosecutor in
the coburger case. And if you remember, like last week,
I was like, what's the one thing we want to know?
And one of the things that I had mentioned that
I wanted to know was whose IDs were in the
glove in the box and in his bedroom in Pennsylvania.
And we know, we got we got the answer. It

(01:02:46):
is two women, two women in Pennsylvania mm hm. And
these IDs were in a glove inside a glove inside
a box in his bedroom in Pennsylvania and they took
them right. So The reason I'm bringing this up is
we're talking about Burglary. So one of the women, you guys,

(01:03:07):
he worked with when he was a security guard, a
part time spirity guard at Pleasant Valley School District in Pennsylvania.
You know, he worked there from he went to school. Yeah,
before he actually made the move to be for he
made the PhD. So this one, they the prosecution reached
out to these two women and were like, hey, your
IDs were in this glove in Brian Coberger's and they

(01:03:30):
were shocked. They had no idea how Brian Coburger got
a hold of their ideas or even they were horrified.
So I don't know if he broke into their home
and like spied on them when they were sleeping, I
have no idea, or maybe their locker at school. I'm
not sure, but he had their jaw dropping.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Yeah, because you've been asking about this question. One of
a brush with you know, with menace and violence. That
was like, thank goodness that they were, you know, not
harmed in any way. Courtney, Remember not to be tangential.
I promise I'll be brief. But do you remember the
person that we were interviewing. She was so good, she

(01:04:12):
had basically been asleep with her boyfriend in her home
and they had a big dog, and apparently in the
night an intruder went by her window that she was
sleeping with her boyfriend at the time, right under, went
right by the window and went upstairs and violently assaulted
the woman above her. And when she woke up, it

(01:04:35):
was like there was police everywhere. The dog had found
the watch of the perpetrator in his mouth, Like basically
the perpetrator had been in her house.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
Yeah, and then you know, Yoga would never do that.
Unbelievable Yogi would like bark and then like hop in
his lap like I need I need.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
That dogredible Yogi close your ears.

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
I think you would do real Oh well, oh my gosh.

Speaker 5 (01:05:02):
But no, that wasn't an absolutely incredible, incredible story that
yeah the dog stop.

Speaker 3 (01:05:08):
So yeah, so these and then we also learned today
from the Idaho Statesman, page one to eighteen, that was
underlined Bill Thompson couldn't even remember it. So because Bill
Thompson couldn't remember what it was, I don't think it
really had any evidentiary value. So I don't know that
we'll ever find out what book he underlined couldn't tell us,

(01:05:29):
so wow.

Speaker 5 (01:05:30):
Well there you have it. Listen, keep it here. We
have many more talkbacks, so we are listening and replying
to you, and if you want to join the conversation,
give us a call eight at eight three one crime,
Keep it here, True Crime tonight. We are talking true
crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
And we are playing a little I guess talkback Roulette
is what we're affectionately calling it in honor of talkback Tuesdays.
So which one should we go to next? Adam, you're up,
you decide.

Speaker 5 (01:06:10):
I think. Adam said, we have a bunch regarding the college,
the Idaho College murder case, so that's I know, that's
the pool we're pulling from.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):
Okayes meeting.

Speaker 13 (01:06:22):
What rattled me is that he's just so stow it.
He's just so un emotional. And my question would be
does he feel anything? I wouldn't ask it in an
accusatory way to put him on a defensive. I'm just literally,
honestly curious. Does he have emotions, does he feel anything?

(01:06:45):
Has he ever feel anything? Has he ever asked for
help with therapy growing up? And that would be my
one question for BK and FBK and I love you all,
you're doing wonderful work things by.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
That's right, f b K. So I can tell you
one thing he does feel rage the wounds of the victim.
Tell us that the medical examiner on of Spokane, Washington
mentioned that whoever did this did it with great intention
and a lot of force, and he.

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
Was obviously very emotionally dysregulated. There have been a lot
of reports though, just based on his ultimate demeanor being
so right, what's the word, like, he's kind of valid, right,
he gives that this space nothing and I guess that's
a sign of psychopathy. And you know, it does sort
of seem like there must be some underlying mental health
issues that maybe were unchecked or otherwise.

Speaker 3 (01:07:39):
Listen, he has a really nice family. His sister's a therapist.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
You know, we have you know, heard about this before
that his older sister was frankly fired from her job
for no reason for anything she did, but just by
association to him by name. And you know, his mother
was very beloved in the community and worked at the
school and you know, put her heart on her sleeve
when there was you know, I think she wrote like

(01:08:03):
an open letter to she wrote a couple yeah, in
response to an active shooter or you know, just kind.

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Of all day she wrote about you've all dae and
then Bundy being executed.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
Yeah, I think it's a really that's a little bit
like the Midtown shooter even today, Like this is a
brain to study, I suppose, And again we don't want
to make excuses for him, but he does.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
Have this wicked affect. Yeah, he really does an absent affect.
And you know, we shouldn't forget either that he was
diagnosed with autism, and though I think that could be
also at play as far as his emotional dysregulation, because
you know, I'm just saying, like we have to also
consider that on top of you know, the psychopathy that

(01:08:48):
he's got. You know, it could also be just be
at play, right, Like that makes me so mad too,
because we all you know, no, of course, just because
if you have autism, that doesn't make you a mass
kill us right, In.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
Fact, you know, quite the opposite. So you know, I
always hated that defense, in that strategy.

Speaker 3 (01:09:04):
I don't think it was a defense. But here's the thing.
I think they mentioned the autism in the motions pre
trial because they wanted the jury to understand if he
was looking weird like and I'm using air quotes weird
and not outside the norms, outside the social norm Yes,
thank you. They wanted the jury not to judge him

(01:09:25):
for that. I think it was fair to do that. Yeah,
that's true. I think I mean fair to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
And also remember when he was young, he also had
that post on social media. I believe it was his
even on Facebook, and we can pull it up where
he basically said he felt nothing.

Speaker 3 (01:09:40):
That was true for about his visual snow of course,
and he talked about you know that he was lacking feelings.
But again, I'm going to go back. Rage is a feeling?
Is rage of feeling? I guess? Yeah, obviously rights to
a feeling or is it actually a feeling? I don't know.
But anger is an emotion, right like women cry, men

(01:10:03):
get angry, right like, it's an emotion. I can get
angry too, and men can cry. If you want to
see some rage, Adams looking at us with some rage.
Right now, Adam and Sam are looking at us with
some rage. You're listening to True Crime tonight where we
talk true crime all the time. I'm body moving and
I'm here with Stephanieleidecker and Courtney Armstrong and we're responding

(01:10:26):
to your talkbacks and dms. If you want to weigh in,
give us a call at eighty eight thirty one Crime
or send us a talkback and we're going to go
to another talkback right now.

Speaker 12 (01:10:34):
I love hey guys.

Speaker 6 (01:10:36):
I just want to get your thoughts and opinions on
finding being able to hear from the surviving roommates.

Speaker 3 (01:10:41):
Thank you. That was hard. I for myself, and I'm
only speaking for myself as a true crime content creator.
Never went after the roommates.

Speaker 8 (01:10:51):
Never.

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
We actually never want after the opposite. Like I thought
it was such a pylon would break these.

Speaker 3 (01:10:56):
I mean, you're listen, they're nineteen, they're drunk, they don't
want to get in trouble. But you know all these
bodycam footages have been released, you know of all the
cops going to the house for these noise complaints, that
they were going there several times. The last thing these
young girls want is to bring trouble to the house, right,
like right, But not because you think your roommates are murdered.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
Do you think you're you know, one of them is
like having a hookup or there's been some sort of
like drunken ninety.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
They were scared, don't want to get a noise disturbance.
They were scared enough to run to the room and
you know, be texting each other like what's going on,
what's going on? But at the same time, they're literally young.
They're nineteen. Dylan was nineteen at the time, and she's
been drinking, like I just, I never went after the room,
So it was I just I was so proud of

(01:11:44):
Dylan Mortenson for kids standing up and speaking her truth
and telling Brian Koberger how he basically destroyed her college
experience and killed her best friends. Yeah, I was so
proud of her and Bethany Emily. Emily spoke for about
at the trial, and I thought she did a wonderful
job because Emily also was traumatized. I just, I was

(01:12:06):
so so grateful that they were able to speak their
truth too.

Speaker 5 (01:12:11):
And I just, yeah, you said, how did you feel?
I felt very sad, and I just primarily was just
I'm sending them wishes that maybe it is finally some
small small bit of peace and moving forward that they
will not have for them the trial looming over their head,
which had been many, many, many more years of their

(01:12:32):
lives waiting to have to take the stand in one
capacity or another, and that they only had to share
the only things they had to say.

Speaker 3 (01:12:40):
And I wish them peace. That's it. Speaking of wishing
peace too.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
The door dash driver that got a lot of play
prior to Coburger's confession. You'll remember, suddenly this footage of
the door dash driver who had been anonymous prior who
apparently delivered the meal to Xana and eat than just
before the murders. You know, we had always heard about
this door dash driver, but then there was tape that

(01:13:06):
was leaked and blah blah bah, and suddenly this woman,
in a very tough moment in her life, you know,
confesses to police like, hey, I'm the door dash driver.
And man, people piled on online and gave her a
lot of slack and she was a real hero also,
and somebody who really dodged death. And I'm just grateful

(01:13:28):
that the roommates survived, you know, God willing, and thankfully
the DoorDash driver who literally you know, saw Coburger right
in front of the house and allegedly walk right past her.
That you know, thank God, she's safe too, and we
all have to be a little more compassionate with people.
I mean, the pylon for the roommates in those early
days was pretty unmeasurable.

Speaker 3 (01:13:50):
I would the cops. No, you don't know what. You
don't know what when you're feeling.

Speaker 2 (01:13:54):
That situation exactly exactly. They might not have even had
their phone on them. You know, you just don't think
these certain terms. So that's why we have to talk
about it, so we know kind of what we would do,
and then we can trouble shape that stuff. So yeah,
compassion First. I get very enraged by the subject. Can't
you tell rage is an emotion?

Speaker 3 (01:14:13):
What do we have an ex Hi?

Speaker 14 (01:14:15):
Everyone, This is Jessica Crocker from Newfoundland, Canada, who just
was looking at YouTube and stumbled upon a body language
expert that was analyzing.

Speaker 3 (01:14:30):
The case body language.

Speaker 14 (01:14:33):
So I think it would be interesting if you had
somebody on to discuss those men.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
I'm in that's the greatest, great idea. We should do
that for next week. I know a body expert, body
language expert.

Speaker 3 (01:14:49):
If you want to know something about me, just ask
did you ever ready chose that body expert? Body?

Speaker 5 (01:14:55):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:14:56):
What you guys are done?

Speaker 5 (01:14:58):
Okay, I've never said it on the show, but I
say to my house no pity laughs, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:15:04):
Adam, listen, Adam is laughing. Okay, okay, Adam, Yeah, laughter
and emotion. No, but that is a good question. I mean,
that's a good idea suggestion. Yeah, let's do that. I
don't know, let's do that next week.

Speaker 2 (01:15:15):
You know, by the way, if you could email us
that expert that you were enjoying on YouTube, we can
reach out to them directly as well.

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):
Yeah. Definitely, what have we got next, Adam, We got
time for one more? I think. Hi.

Speaker 15 (01:15:26):
I'm Emberly from Phoenix, Arizona, and I love the show
I was calling in regard to the Idaho student murders. Obviously,
all of us can agree that this was incredibly tragic
and senseless, senseless. But the thought that I just had

(01:15:46):
pop in my mind after being and hearing and reading
some of the details since everything has been unsealed, is
that Ethan was passed out drunk, well Xanna was being attacked.
Doesn't that just go to show you that Ethan didn't

(01:16:06):
even need to be attacked, that he was not a threat.
Brian Coberger could have just walked out of there with
Ethan alive but passed out, and then possibly they would
have had a suspect in him.

Speaker 3 (01:16:21):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
It's such a good point, and it must be so
hard to have. I mean, it's so hard for any
of the families, but you know, for the Shapen family,
that's really.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
Brutal collateral damage. It's such a scary theory, right at
least try we learned. We learned that Ethan, you know,
was asleep in bed, was not a threat. He was
literally sleeping on his stomach. He was not a threat.
There was no reason. Well there's no reason for any
of it obviously, so like that. That's because you don't

(01:16:52):
have to even pre qualify that. It's just it's just
senseless brutality. And you know, the more I try to
understand they the more questions I keep I end up.

Speaker 2 (01:17:03):
With, you know, yeah, and fifty times he stabbed Xana
and you know, trigger alert fifty times.

Speaker 3 (01:17:10):
I mean, it's unbelievable. And he didn't he didn't need
to her point though. Ethan was not, for for all
we know, was not even awake.

Speaker 11 (01:17:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:17:21):
God, you know, God willing, you know, you can hope
for that a little bit, I know, like I really do,
poor Ethan and his ports, like his brother and sister like,
oh my god, he's triplet. Ethan's triplet a triplet, Yeah,
the grace of Station. Anything about Brian Coberger behind bars?
Is he having a lovely adjustment to the big leagues

(01:17:42):
or it's been.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
Kind of quiet. I haven't heard any reports. Well, maybe
we will eventually. Right now, I hope he's just hating life.
We've been doing this talkback roulette and it's such a joy,
so we want to do this every Tuesday, so keep
them coming. I think it's becoming our favorite thing, and
it actually have one right now.

Speaker 12 (01:18:01):
Hi body, this is producer Ava and I decided to
watch Don't f with Katz and I had a question
that I'm sure other people want to know, So I'm
curious how that experience, both just doing the investigation and
also the making of the Netflix documentary. What lessons did
you take or are there any impacts that it had

(01:18:21):
on you that inform how you do the show and
how you talk about the cases that we cover here.

Speaker 3 (01:18:26):
Thank you, She's so clever.

Speaker 5 (01:18:29):
That's an onion of a question.

Speaker 12 (01:18:30):
I love.

Speaker 3 (01:18:32):
I need like ten minutes to answer that because it
literally affected me in every way you can imagine. It
affected my love lifefect. It affected my work, It affected,
you know what, the opportunity obviously in a positive way,
the opportunities I have now, like I would never have

(01:18:53):
the opportunity to do something like this show had not
that happened. But you know what, it it negatively affected
my personal life in many, many, many ways.

Speaker 5 (01:19:02):
I was gonna say, you only because you opened the
door with that at first, when you were talking about
your personal life and work.

Speaker 3 (01:19:10):
Infected No, corrected yourself. It infected me, No, one hundred
percent infected me because like when the show came out,
I was getting a lot of attention, and I was single,
and I was getting like romantic attention, and all the
people that were showing me interest thought I had money.

(01:19:30):
They thought I had because I was on an fil show.
And so now I'm just like, you know, I don't
trust anybody like I, you know, and I'm you know, anyway,
it totally negatively affected me in that way, but it
positively affected me, you know, having these kinds of opportunities
and folks, and you know, talking to you Eva, and
you know, I never would have had these opportunities otherwise.

(01:19:52):
And you got in India in the ends, Yeah, right, Yeah,
I met Indian like all those people, and I probably
never would have met those people had it not happened,
but you know it it it definitely affected me and
I still have those those issues sometimes. I wonder if
people want to be my friend or if they want
to be Bobby move In's front.

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):
Oh you're a friend, Whe're your friend. Yeah, that's a
really interesting touch point. And remember too, for document you know, documentaries,
people don't make money on you know, really, why do
you get paid as a standard? You know, they're really
doing it for the awareness and to be able to
get the word out.

Speaker 3 (01:20:25):
So that can be such a misthought people. How much
did you.

Speaker 2 (01:20:30):
Make for a donut with cats? I'm like nothing, Yeah,
nothing for And that's like, you know, that's not why
you do it. You do it because it's important stuff.
And you know, you really have to love what you're
talking about because there's not like a big pash prize
in the ends.

Speaker 3 (01:20:45):
Right and you know it was. But as far as
the investigation go, it helped me learn what's important and
what's noise. Yep, you know. And the thing is, though
I learned all that, but I still go through all
the noise just to find that important tidbit. Who does
I know? I obsess over details, ask my discord. I

(01:21:06):
obsess over the smallest details. Today I obsessed. There's bodycam
footage been released from by Brian Coberger's traffic stop weer
in August, and I'm obsessing about the location where he
was driving, what time it was. I mean, I'm obsessing
over this.

Speaker 5 (01:21:23):
Mages, the thes, and the I'm so happy I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:21:32):
Still is what it boils down to. I'm still welcome
to the club. We all you're not a low That
was a great question. Yeah, I could. I could talk
about that for a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
And also, if you have those more of these talkbacks,
make sure you keep them coming. I know I feel
like I'm on a broken record here, but just to
like set the standard eight eight eight three one crime.
You can leave us a message after hours, or leave
us a talk back on the iHeart radio app, or
hit us up on our socials.

Speaker 3 (01:22:03):
Obviously, we will be.

Speaker 2 (01:22:03):
Back tomorrow, and this has been an extraordinary night and
we're so grateful for it. So you guys enjoy the
rest of your night, Stay safe. True Crime Tonight

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