Texas Woman Sentenced To Life In Prison For Murder Of Fifth Husband; Unpacking Netflix’s ‘Adolescence’

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well, welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here of course,
every night with Courtney Armstrong and body move in. So
listen everybody, It's Thursday, October ninth. We're almost to Friday.
We hope you have had a perfect day, because listen,
we have a stack knight of headlines. So Sarah Hartfield,

(00:42):
she's the wife accused of killing her fifth husband, has
in fact been convicted. So much to report on that. Also,
Richard Allen, he's serving time now in the Delphi murders,
so close to Boddy's heart. We're hearing a little bit
more from his attorneys and his plans for his appeal.
And also the judge responds to Ditty's request to a

(01:06):
very specific prison in New Jersey. Is he going to
give him that leeway or is he going to say no?
That information is in as well. Plus, the accused arsonist
in the Palisades fire appeared in court today. And also
that mom that vanished after that house went on fire.
She's been found today and guess what, she was two

(01:29):
and a half miles from home. So there is a
lot to uncover tonight, ladies. Huh. I gotta tell you,
I have been counting the minutes till I get to
be here with you guys tonight. So always good to
be here time. Everybody, pull up your proverbial chair to
our kitchen table. Yeah, grab a coffee, grab a cocktail,

(01:50):
grab some water, Grab your pumpkins spice. Let's go the
pumpkins spice.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
I'm in ah.

Speaker 4 (01:56):
You know what I want to know from everybody? Pumpkins spice? Yay?
Or na eight at eight three one crime? Body is
big time yay. I am thumbs down. So where do
you land on the spectrum of pumpkin spice?

Speaker 3 (02:14):
I will say, I like butterscotch, the best butter you get.
Butter scotch, That's what I'm just gonna say. It's very
rarely available, but very like.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yes, I mean you can't go that deep, but pumpkin
spice is everywhere right now. I smell. I love the smell.
I love the smell. This is one of my favorite smells.
It's like the kickoff to the season. Right, it's like
the buttic spooky season. It's my favorite time of years. Yes,
that it tastes as good as it smells.

Speaker 5 (02:44):
It doesn't.

Speaker 6 (02:44):
And they put it on things that I don't think
it should go on, like punk spice, potato chips, and
like everything comes like, that's true.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
It is a little over potato chip, I think. But
that is a fair point. It's it's a little bit
like drinking a candle. You know. I don't know that
it tastes quite as good as it smells.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Okay, I'm the oddball. I guess I like it.

Speaker 4 (03:05):
But we'll get a poll going.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
You get your coffee and sit at the table with us,
and let's let's have a conversation.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Right, well, let's have a conversation. Yeah, I hit episode
on her Socials. You've been doing a very good job
of that. And yes, you've been doing a very good
job on the talkbacks too, so keep those coming. Download
your iHeartRadio app. Press the icon in the top right
hand corner. It's like a little microphone. Once you press that,
you just leave a message and then boom, you're on
the show. In fact, let's go to one right now.

Speaker 7 (03:34):
Hi, this is Diana from Georgia.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Body.

Speaker 7 (03:36):
You asked what intrigues us about through crime? I grew
up in Stafford, Virginia, and my mom trained FBI students
at Hogan Zally in Quantico, and eventually I got to
go work with her for a little bit. Then I
went to Auburn University and had the opportunity to here
John Douglas speech.

Speaker 8 (03:56):
It was fascinating.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Oh, Deanna, listen, we're Deanna as well. Were we separated
at birth? I wonder, except for the FBI thing that
is phenomenal that is about to see John Douglas. Oh,
I love him. I have a wish list and John
Douglas is number one on that wish list of people
to talk to. So really I am very jealous of you.

Speaker 5 (04:16):
Yes, John, can you share.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
Tell us everything?

Speaker 3 (04:21):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Oh, John Douglas.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
He is basically the godfather of FBI, of criminal profiling,
mind Hunter, my favorite show of all time is literally
my favorite show of all time. The character that basically
creates the behavioral science unit, the young guy full of
rigor and enthusiasm and so cute, is based loosely around

(04:43):
John Douglas and he's first of all, he's an animal lover.
He is just a really nice person. And he's a
criminal profiler. He basically invented criminal profiling. He's phenomenal.

Speaker 5 (04:55):
And that's probably one of the best shows ever.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
So good.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
It's not on our True crime in chill. Also, Minehunter
is like one of the basics that is really fun
to watch if you're new to this, like conversation about
solving things and justice and putting together clues. Mindhunters.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Really it really is really a class master app And
I keep falling. People keep teasing that there's going to
be a season three, like and I keep falling for
it every single time I see it. I'm like, oh,
season three is coming, ome my because it famously got
canceled because it's just really expensive apparently to produce.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
And I keep saying for Nolan is really expensive too.

Speaker 4 (05:38):
Christipher Nolan is sutiful.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Oh oh my goodness. Like that's a director who just
does very methodical, intentional work, allegedly illegedly, but like he's
like the master of all directing. Who would you cast
as the stars of the next mind Hunter? Is there,
like an actor or an actress, body that you think
would be just amazing and one of those true crime

(06:03):
I wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Really have to think about it. I don't have anybody
that I'm not really like. I don't really know famous
people's names. I'm really bad at that, so i'd have
to think about it. Look, people love, I don't have a.

Speaker 4 (06:16):
Good question. Let's ask them.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
I have no idea.

Speaker 4 (06:20):
I throw Jake joll And holl In there, but i'd
throw him and almost any.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
But he just did one right, like he just did
he presumed innocent. Oh yes, yes, that was quite good too.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
Christopher Nolan. By the way, I directed my favorite movie
of all time. If your conception Interstellar, Interstellar was beautiful,
That's our favorite movie of all time, all time. It's
actually my phone wallpaper. I have a sound d I
love Interstellar.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
That's so funny because I'm going to watch that again.
And I loved it as well the first time, but
not maybe as profoundly. You know, sometimes you watch something yeah,
half asleep and right BedHead, and you're not paying as
much attention. But I really did love it. Yeah, Shawshank
would be mine, of course for yours.

Speaker 4 (07:03):
Broadcast news my favorite movie.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
I haven't seen that Oh it's so good. Okay, I
will add it to my list to watch. Like you
and I not like have a really similar you know thing,
you'll dig Your similar thing is West Wing. Let's there's
a million similar things. It's always the same thing, just
West Wing. We're obsessed with West's.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
Really you, guys, honestly, will I promise you one day
we're going to have somebody from the West Wing on
as a play by play. And because neither of you
able to like control yourself. Oh yeah, let's try for

(07:46):
what's your name, Jenny Alison jam So let's try j
Freg take it on the list. That's get I know
there's no full moon tonight, but that's what I'm wishing.

Speaker 5 (07:58):
For, visioning a little bitting.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Maybe for one of your birthdays we'll have like Alison
Janny on for like a special courtiny and body day.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
Anyway, Deanna, thank you for the talkback. We went off
on a tangent, but thank you so much for the talkback.
And I am very jealous of the experience you got
to say, fiat On Douglas, I love it.

Speaker 4 (08:18):
And bringing us back Stephanie. You mentioned at the very
top of the show. Sarah Hartsfield indeed has been convicted
and sentenced to life. She's in prison for killing her
fifth husband, Joseph Hartsfield. She did it with a fatal
insulin overdose. She also delayed medical help. Hartsfield was a

(08:39):
former US Army sergeant. And this well not alleged murder.
This murder took place January of twenty twenty three. But
her boy, she has a real complex and disturbing history.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
That's an understatement.

Speaker 4 (08:54):
Oh my gosh, the multiple marriages. Listen, we all live
different lives, and you know, love may come in and
go in all of our lives. However, yeah, hers came
and went with a lot of violence, just briefly. Okay.
Do we want the quick rundown of her husband's Okay, yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Because it really goes strong who she is, right like
I feel, Yeah.

Speaker 6 (09:16):
Rundown five different men. I mean I shouldn't say it
that way, but go through it.

Speaker 4 (09:21):
Okay. So, her first husband claims she threatened him during
their divorce and harassed him for years afterwards. In nineteen
ninety six, she was arrested for assaulting her second husband.
I will say charges were later dropped. Then her third
husband accused her of urging her fourth husband to kill

(09:42):
his new wife, allegedly providing him with the pistol and
issuing threats.

Speaker 5 (09:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:49):
Wow, she has not been charged in connection with the
alleged murder plot involving her fourth husband and all this.
So there's the four husbands. We know very very sad
how it ended for her fifth Joseph Hartsfield. But then
in twenty eighteen there was a fiancee, David Bragg, and

(10:10):
she fatally shot him. Ultimately, Yes, yes, ultimately the case
was ruled self defense, but prosecutors did reopen the investigation
after her twenty twenty three indictment.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
Wow, how many do you have to be? So if
she was, if she's found guilty, if they reopen the
case for her fiance that she shot and fatally killed,
and we now know she's been convicted of killing the
fifth husband with insolin, would that make her a serial killer?

Speaker 5 (10:40):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (10:42):
We need to look.

Speaker 9 (10:43):
I know.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
I don't think so, because I think it's three or
more for a SEW. I'd have to hundred percent. Shouldn't
know the answer to this. I need to me too,
but I feel like so I apologize to the world.
But just like she's pretty close you know, thank god
she's been apprehended, because it seems like she's on a tear.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, and obviously they're going to reopen this case and
find out if she needs to be indicted for this, right, Yeah,
I mean this is crazy. I don't know how I
missed that.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
And during the trial, this was day five. This happened
on the third, So I can't imagine how hard this
must have been for Doris Swartz. She is the mother
of David Bragg, who is the former Fans who she
fatally shot. She testified that Sarah had an incredibly complex
relationship with her son David, and also had this whole

(11:31):
disturbing claim, which I'm interested by the fact that it
was let into court. She had an interesting claim that
Sarah had burned down her grandmother's house in order to
prevent her brother from inheriting it.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (11:43):
So it just seems like.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
Hurt.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
We have armison right, this past violent history. Two murders,
and I do believe it's.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Three or more.

Speaker 6 (11:55):
Yeah, I just looked, and if there's no single number,
everyone agrees on, but most experts say two or more
separate victims with a cooling off period between.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
I'm still going to period. I can't handle it. The
idea of the cooling off period. That's another show I'm
developing in my head. The cooling off period.

Speaker 4 (12:15):
I know that's scary.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
It's this little moment between a serial killer's killings where
they go basically be normal, where they like reintegrate into
the real world. Can you see that scripted show. We're
going to be watching this on True Crime and chill
one day, mark my words.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
I believe it.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
But it is like a chilling thing.

Speaker 4 (12:36):
And I mean BTK had an unbelievable the buying torture
kill serial murderer Dennis Radar because in between when he
was doing the most heinous and hideous things, he would
then go back to quote normal life and be a dad.
And he was a church council president and he was

(12:56):
I believe, a boy. Yes, he was a cub.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Scout leader, was a cup Scout leader. That's right. And
by the way, that's not uncommon in fact, many serial killers.
We're working on a documentary now. I can't talk about
it yet, but I can't wait until I do. But
there's a little bit of a cooling off period involved,
and it's pretty impossible to imagine that someone. You know,
we talk about this a lot, being two things at

(13:20):
the same time, being a parent and a husband in
between it's times and going to the PTA meetings and
being a parishioner and you know, being a really good
neighbor for like years while doing the most painous things
around the edges is like it is impossible to imagine.

(13:44):
So yeah, BTK is a great example. He was an
extraordinary father. According to his daughter document Long Island.

Speaker 4 (13:53):
I was going to say, exactly, taha Long Island serial
killer if what's alleged is true, that I had a
nice job and architects and a family man and all
that love. And meanwhile there we go.

Speaker 3 (14:05):
Yeah, and there are outliers like Richard Ramirez was a
horrible human being in every every aspect, Like he just
couldn't get it together. Ever. You know, he didn't have
a normal any sense of normalcy like BTK or Bundy
or Lisk. You know, he didn't have any of that.
But there are outliers, there are exceptions, But for the.

Speaker 4 (14:26):
Most that's that's easier to comprehend for me. It is
for me to tell a lot for me too.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
For me, that's why the cooling off period is so chilling, right,
I almost feel like it's a mask. It's like this
is like a beard almost, you know how I'm a
normal person. But it's not a half a day. It
can be years years. Ye.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
Listen, when we come back, a federal judges signing off
on Diddy serving time near New York. But he may
not be happy with this prison. And the Delphi murder
case takes a turn, we're gonna hear what Richard Allen's
lo are pushing for. Now keep it here True Crime Tonight,
and we'd love you to join us eight at eight
three one Crime.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker, I head
of KAT Studios, where we get to make true crime
podcasts like The Idaho Massacre Season three out now. Body
and Courtney are both exceptional in it as well as
in Cells, also out now. You'll recognize the smooth stylings

(15:39):
of Courtney Armstrong's voice in in Cells also producing it,
and Body is excellent in it and it's so important,
So we really hope you'll check it out iHeart Just
download your app. It's also free anyway, So welcome back.
I'm here, of course with Courtney and body. Courtney and
I are doing some weight. They're literally exercising.

Speaker 3 (16:02):
You guys. I'm surprised you're not out of breath. It's
so so and I ordered some weight by the way,
I'm we're going to.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Be written and a half pounds, So one and a
half pound weight is what we're dealing with. But we
are going to try to lift our arms with it
during the breaks.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
If we come back and we're like, welcome to your friends,
you know why.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Okay, it makes me want to like have a martini
and maybe a cigarette.

Speaker 10 (16:30):
You know.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Balance, It's a balance in my mind's eye, that's always
what should be happening, but the real world says otherwise. Anyway,
So listen more to I'm pack on the Delphi case
as well, and listen. We'll get to that next. But Diddy,
So we've been listening, of course, and watching how puff
Daddy Diddy is now looking at fifty months behind bars

(16:55):
and what I didn't realize and maybe you guys did that.
After you're sets, especially in a federal case like this,
the next big topic of conversation is where are you
going to go. Right now, he's serving time in Brooklyn.
We've heard a lot about the conditions there. They have
not been up to par for him. We've heard that

(17:16):
it's really horrible conditions, quite frankly according to his family
and his you know, defense attorneys, maggots in the food,
et cetera. It's also where Luigi Mangione is being held.
Also allegedly his roommate is Sam Bankman, who is the
sort of the infamous financier who's since been disgraced and
serving time there as well. So now he's going to

(17:39):
be transferred to live out this fifty months. And who
would have thought that that is a really big decision, right,
So typically for you and I, that would really look
like they just assigned you to a prison and you
go to it, and I would have to assume that's
based on population or you know whatever population in the nature.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
The crime too, right, like maximum security versus.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Are you going to get shank? Are you going to
be doing the shanking? Are dangerous? So yeah, is this
a homicide and a murder versus tax evasion? Right or
something to that effect in his case. In Ditty's case,
he's making a very specific recommendation that he wants to
be as close to New York City as possible and
obviously as low of a security prison as possible within

(18:27):
the kind fines of the federal system, and that has
to go before the judge. It's funny you and I
we all talked about this right before the judgment came through.
I had heard to the grapevine that one of the
mothers of Ditty's children, the youngest. The child's name is
Love and the mother's name is Dana Chran. She's actually

(18:49):
like a cyber security expert, and there was a conversation
allegedly happening between her and attorneys basically getting some ideas
of what we be the best case scenario for Ditty.
Where should he go, where he will be the safest,
that has like the best conditions, the best job situations,

(19:10):
that he could maybe get some credit for early removal
from prison. So he's asking for a very specific place
for Dix. We talked about this last night. Low security.
There's not any armed guards. For example, you know, they're
in like a bunk. It's not like you're in your
own cell and you're not getting a lot of daylight.

(19:32):
Like they're not in Shane, you know, shackles that kind
of thing. So this has to go before the judge,
and Judge Submarinean apparently is pretty open to the idea
of letting Ditty kind of pick and choose. He said,
he will be really open to the idea of him
being on the East Coast, specifically near New York City.

(19:54):
I suppose lots of Ditty's family is in the New
York City area, so maybe having a time in New Jersey,
which is of course not very far away, would serve him.
So the judge didn't say specifically yes to that request
for the prison, but he did say yes for the
location and area and by the way, so that makes

(20:16):
sense to me. But then I got a little annoyed
for the regular man. Then I thought about, like, what
would happen if the rest of us or anybody behind
bars wanted to pick and choose where they got to go.
Is that fair or is that yet another example of
influence and being famous giving you a better stay. I

(20:37):
don't know.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
I think it probably depends on the arguments the lawyers
make for the benefit of him, right, Like, obviously, when
you send somebody to prison in a short stint, is
such as fifty months. You want them to come out
better than they went in, right, And so they're going
to make an argument to say, and I haven't you
read the argument, but I would assume Boom that the

(21:01):
arguments are, this is the most beneficial for his you know,
recovered rehabilitation. Sure, like do they have a drug treatment
program or alcohol program? And like you said, work credits
And there's probably a whole strategy that goes into picking
that prison. And here's what here's what I'm going to
say that that comes with having money, right, because you

(21:24):
have to have the lawyers to be able to do
that great argument.

Speaker 4 (21:28):
Well, to make the petition, because anyone can, any prisoner
can petition. Whether it's you know, I can be Joe
with no money and my mother in another state is ailing.
Can I move there? It can be you know, I'm
having a terrible time. It can be it can be
many different things. But to your point, it's having the

(21:49):
lawyer who will get the argument actually heard and passed
certainly will help the cause.

Speaker 5 (21:55):
Do you think it's an.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
Interesting thing too, just in general for inmates or anybody
who's serving time, excuse me, for their family members. So
if somebody is serving time behind bars. You assume if
you have a family or loved ones that they're going
to want to visit you every other Sunday and you know,
bring you baked goods. In my head, but imagine if
you're in a different state, that's not an option. So

(22:17):
I would have to assume that the first attempt for
most prisoners is to be near a location where your
family can travel by car to go see you. All
that to be said, it's not a perfect system. I
don't know that the every man gets that luxury. And
sometimes people have to travel to many states to go

(22:39):
see their dad or to go see their you know, son,
and that's pretty hard anyway. I just kind of made
me go down a rabbit hole about that today in
my head, about how hard it must be to want
to rehabilitate your life. Meanwhile, you can't see your loved
ones because they're so very far away, and of course
they have jobs in school, et cetera. I don't know

(22:59):
that everybody. It's a luxury to pick and choose. But
that said did he has served time in Brooklyn, and
apparently that's a tough spot according to him and many
By the way, I don't think anybody's saying that's you know,
the four seasons. So in theory, if he's going into
any low security prison, it should be a bit of
an upgrade for him.

Speaker 5 (23:20):
Yeah, that should be true.

Speaker 6 (23:21):
But I was going to throw in, do you think
it also impacts you know, he's a celebrity, he's well known,
and there is a side where you know, there's some
creid for an innate that stabs a celebrity or something.
So do they try to keep him in a facility
that might be a little safer for someone who is
very well known.

Speaker 4 (23:39):
It would make sense, even from a liability standpoint. I
would have to imagine, because it's not going to be
a good look for any prison facility if someone goes
in there, particularly well known and something happens to them.
So I'd have to imagine that does weigh in of
is there basically the personnel or the infrastructure to manage

(24:00):
or mitigate the risk?

Speaker 2 (24:02):
M h. Yeah, that's an interesting point because we've seen
that in low security prisons. I don't know why I'm
thinking of the chrislies Todd Christly and his wife, very
low security issues. Low security you know, Diddy, it's been
so prolific in the rap world with the Tupac and
the Bigie and the war between rap worlds. I wonder

(24:26):
if there is an added layer of security to be
considered in his case. Although four Dix doesn't have like
individual housing, he would be living in like a bunk
with you know, four to five guys, and that's it's
mostly communal. It's not that you have your own space
and that you're kept away from general population.

Speaker 10 (24:46):
See.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
I wouldn't want my own space. I don't want anybody else.
Yeah I would, of course, he would.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
Right, yeah, Like no, yeah, me too. I want to
shut the door and I don't want to talk to nobody.
I want my little stash of my goodies safe on
my whatever. I'm imagining the Epstein cell a little bit
with all his stuff at the top. I don't know.
I think I would want. I don't want to be
house with people. Absolutely not.

Speaker 4 (25:10):
I think anyone would want give him the option. Who
would say, no, let me bunk with nine strangers. I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
I might take the nine strangers well, are very social.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
I'm not.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
I would feel like, you know, we band together and
we we we survive this together.

Speaker 4 (25:27):
Oh my lord stars.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
So I was like eh, we can all have weighted
bests and you know, so a little something for ourselves.

Speaker 3 (25:38):
Interesting. Interesting, Well, I don't think we're heal alone.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
I think Martha made some friends behind bars, even that
the Chrystalies seem to do well in general.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Pop.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
Well, I have another update for Delphi.

Speaker 4 (25:51):
We want to so.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
Richard Allen's appellat attorneys are seeking to overturn his one
hundred and thirty year sentence for the Delphi murders by
challenging the legality of the search warrant and the exclusion
of third party suspect evidence.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
So this goes back to the little background.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Richard Allen was sentenced in November of last year to
one hundred and thirty years for the murder of fourteen
year old Liberty German and thirteen year old Abigail Williams
in Delphi, Indiana, near the Monon Highbridge. He was arrested
in twenty twenty two. It was five years later and
then convicted in twenty twenty four and he received a

(26:30):
one hundred and thirty year sentence. But prior to him
being sentenced and prior to the trial, the defense dropped
an explosive document and it was called the motion for
Frank's hearing. Okay, and a Frank's hearing, if you don't
know what that is, it's basically saying the sheriff's office,
and this is general, this is throughout the United States

(26:53):
of Frank's and we had won in Idaho as well.
It basically implies, or is accusing the polonn enforcement of
lying in order to secure a search warrant. And therefore,
if there was a lie, even by omission, the search
warrant should be invalid. And therefore, you know, none of

(27:14):
these things would have been seized. Therefore he would never
would have been indicted. Therefore, you know, it's the fruit
of the poisonous tree.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
And right, so it's the fruit of the poisonous tree.
So excuse me, how a frog in my throne? I'm
very sorry I had it earlier.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
I don't know what's going on. I think it's the
chill in the air, which I enjoy.

Speaker 4 (27:34):
But in case that's I was going to say, a
little pumpkin spice taste.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
I'm going to have to get some pumpkin spice cough drops.

Speaker 3 (27:41):
So so, this Frank's hearing was explosive, and in this
Frank's motion. They came out with a lot of information
to basically blame other parties, and they, you know, said
that we want we want to have this Frank's hearing,
not only because the Sheriff's office lied about witness testimony,

(28:01):
which is what they implied, but they also said they
also lost this report that said from the FBI, by
the way, that said this was an odinist ritualistic sacrifice. Basically,
I'm kind of paraphrasing because there's a lot with the ALFA,
you guys, there's so much.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
I'm trying to make this as concise as possible.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
And so the judge judge Goal that presided over the
case and that all the pre trial motions exclude, said no,
you can't present this evidence.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
It's crazy talk.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
But there was compelling information in this Frank's motion that
I was kind of surprised I got denied. I'm not
gonna lie. I was a little surprised, and not you know,
I don't necessarily buy into the odiness sacrifice or whatever,
but the evidence about the search warrant and the police
officers potentially you know, lying by a mission about witness

(28:58):
testimony was very compelling to me. So I kind of
was surprised a little bit that I'm surprised to hear
you say that. I know, I know, I'm very I know,
I know. Delphi is the one case where I just
I just don't I just don't know if it was
Richard Allen, you guys. And I feel terrible saying that,
because again, I really believe in our system and I

(29:20):
want to believe that they got the right guy for
this family and for these little girls, and you know,
the town of Delphi. It's just I'm not I'm not
saying he's not the guy, but I'm not saying he
is either. I don't know, but it's not to me, right,
my opinion doesn't really matter.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
But now, but the family is divided also several of
the victims. You know, there's two beautiful girls at the
center of this, and not all of the family members
of those two victims are in alignment either with this conviction.

Speaker 9 (29:50):
Yeah, you know, it's it's it's it's a tough spot
to be especially when there's multiple victims. You know, we
saw this in Idaho too, right, when different strategies and
there's multiple families involved, and trying to make everybody happy
almost seems impossible. So the judge granted.

Speaker 3 (30:06):
Basically, what they're asking for is more time to submit
their appeal.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
The judge granted it.

Speaker 3 (30:12):
They have until I believe October twenty first now to
complete their appeal process, and we'll see what happens. I
don't know if it's going to be granted or not.
But you know, this whole thing, this fruit of the
poisonous tree, is a big deal in Delphi. And you
know Judge Goal what her decisions were, very controversial and

(30:35):
very states approved.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
And listen, please check in, leave us at talkback, hit
us up in our socials. We do want to hear
from you. There's a lot of stories to get through
tonight and also a lot of talk packs to get
through tonight. So body, before we go to our next talkback,
just to finish up on Delphi, because I know there
were some last licks there. Yeah, it's kind an interesting case.

Speaker 3 (30:57):
Every time I talk about Delphi kind of start rambling,
So sorry about that.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
So close.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
So a really significant portion of the appeal is going
to be centered around this alleged new evidence that Ron
Logan confessed to another inmate while he was in prison
in twenty seventeen, and Ron Logan if you're not really
conversant with Delphi, is the property owner where the girls

(31:23):
were found, okay, and he has a shady history, and
he also lied about his whereabouts on the day they
were you know that this murder happened, and he's always
been kind of suspect and a lot of people think
he might be Bridge Guy. And Bridge Guy is of
course famously filmed by one of the victims, Liberty German.

(31:45):
Right before they were murdered. They were on the moan
on Highbridge. They were taking photos. They were being cute
teenagers posting the snapchat. Well while they were doing this,
a man approached them and told them to go down
the hill and when they went to down the hill,
they were murdered, presumably by Bridge Guy, and Libby recorded
all of it. The problem is the recording is like,

(32:07):
you know, it's twenty seventeen, and he was kind of
far away, you really can't see his face. But a
lot of people compare Bridge Guy to Ron Logan, and
the you know, the comparisons are pretty compelling. However, he
died during COVID, so yeah, he died during COVID, So
that's going to be a significant part of this appeal process,

(32:29):
and they're basically trying to impeach Brad Webber, who Brad
Weber was a witness, not really a witness, but he
was driving home and passed through this area and was
really key in getting Richard Allen convicted, along with Richard
Allen's confessions, which people argue were coursed. Both the defense

(32:53):
and the prosecution both agree that the appellate team needs
to access these missing trial exhibits as well, and they
both requested extended deadlines to review them. And by the way,
less than five percent of convictions are overturned on direct appeal.
But legal experts say the third party suspect exclusion again
remember the fact through the Poison Street, this third party

(33:16):
exclusion that they that they argued in court may offer
Annan's team their strongest argument. So we're going to see that.
We're definitely going to be following up on this, like
for sure, you know what.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
The most, not the most, but something about this case.
And listen, I've heard you speak about it because I
know it's so close to your heart, and even following
it so incredibly closely, it's sort of like, you know, Courtney,
you and I have piked In and the Pie County
massacre in Idaho. I feel like we've all been living
certain cases for such a long time.

Speaker 4 (33:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
The thing about Delphi that always strikes me is the
fact that this murder happened to these two beautiful girls
on a snow day. Yeah, wasn't it like a surprise day.
It wasn't a surday because snow there, but it was
just like a surprise off day for school, like they
should have been somewhere else. They should have been at school,
but the school was closed that.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
Day because they had a They didn't have a snow
day during the winter, so they had too many days
for school. And it was an unseasonably warm day in
the middle of February in Delphi, Indiana, and the girls.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Were like, Oh, it's beautiful, let's go out.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
They shouldn't have been there.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
They shouldn't have been there. And that is that sliding
door moment. And I think in true crime we see
that so often often, where it's just that it was
like the day was different, and therefore this happened. And
I think to myself so often. My daddy used to
always say this when he read things in the newspaper, too.
If they had only stayed home that morning, or if

(34:45):
they didn't get that cup of coffee on the way
to work, maybe that accident wouldn't have happened. And this
is just one of those cases that really sticks with
me in that regard, and if I'm a family member,
it just must be, Oh, they just gone to school
as planned, right.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
I think about that with Idaho sometimes I'm watching the
grub hub footage or the grub truck, but it had
been just just longer. Maybe if you know, they didn't
order the food, or you know, if they had sat
there and eat it at the ball, if they ate
it at the.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
Bar, or if they just like chummed up with friends,
and if they order took a little bit longer. Of course,
nobody involved in this, like you know, timeline we're describing,
has any part in it. But sometimes there are crimes
that just seem like crimes of the moment, and is
like that your a moment or is that just the
moment that happened? And I think that's what we all

(35:37):
kind of scratch out a little bit. And with these
beautiful young girls, like they were just walking across a
wooded bridge, two best friends on a day off from
school on an unseasonably warm day in February, and you
know what, their sister dropped them off. One of their sisters,
if I remember correctly, had dropped them off, and mom

(35:59):
and sister were like, don't forget your jacket. You're going
to be like walking across this beautiful wooded bridge, like
the one that I remember from the movie Stand By
Me when they all run across that bridge. It has
like this picturesque place. You know, Delphi is a beautiful place.
These were loved girls and dear friends.

Speaker 3 (36:19):
Weals, they were the best friends too.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
They were like preteens.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
One thing that always strikes me about Delphi is that,
you know, there there's allegedly one perpetrator, Richard Allen, and
you know, they never left each other side, and it
makes me kind of like tear up a little bit
thinking about it. And they never left each other side.
And you know, for for five years, well for seven years,

(36:44):
we ate almost eight the bridge. The full Bridge Guy
video had been kept from the public, and recently the
defense team for Richard Allen released the full video and
we finally get to see you know, the lead up everything,
and you can hear Libby's just a sweet voice. You know,

(37:06):
she's so compliant, and you know, Abby is walking toward
her on the bridge and I think she kind of
it's hard to hear. You can kind of hear her say,
is he still behind me? And she's talking about bridge,
you know, walking towards her. She's scared, and you kind
of hear her say, don't leave me, and Libby, Libby, Libby,

(37:27):
her sweet voice says, there's nowhere else to go. We
have to go down. And then you hear bridge guy
come into, you know, closer to the girls, and he says,
guys and they say yeah, and it's just heartbreaking, heartbreaking,
and they say and then he says, down the hill.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Oh, it's just I have to jump in. Because by
the way, if you're just joining us, you're listening to
true crime tonight. We're talking about the Delphi murders. It's
very close to our hearts, very close to you know,
bodies specifically. I'm Stephanie here with Courtney and body, you know,
we talk about compliance. I want to say one thing
that I learned. I think I learned this from working

(38:07):
with Nancy Grays back in the day. Courtney, you too,
we had some sort of like safety expert on. I
know we have one on later today, thank goodness. So
what you just said though, and again, this is not
a victim thing in terms of they did everything correctly.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
They did everything right.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
Just to remember, when their bodies were found, they had
been redressed. Yeah, whatever sicko did this to them. They
were so unkind to these beautiful young girls, and these
young girls because we're all trained to be compliant, right, so, oh,
you know what do I do? And I think we

(38:45):
need to teach our girls and ore you know, anyone
young Frankly, you need to get loud and you are.
You do not have to be compliant when you have
that sixth sense. What you just described is she said,
don't leave me, and like there's nowhere else to go, right, Like,
That's what we all would have done in that situation.

(39:07):
Everybody would have done the exact same thing in that scenario.
And I think the takeaway in retrospects, which is the
only thing that we have, is you don't go. You
fight like hell, you don't get in the car. By
the way, your ability to survive a crime goes down
fifty percent if you get in the car.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah, yeah, it's a staggering number, right so, and by
the way, if anyone knows more about this, please join
the conversation. This is something that I was told. But
you just don't want to get in the vehicle because
once you get in the vehicle, your odds of survival
go down so much. And as women as specifically but
not all women and the men are not excluded from this.

(39:51):
Please forgive me if that seems exclusive. But we are
trained to be polite and to listen to an elder.
And imagine being a little girl, a little teen. Some
bridge guy is like lurking behind you and telling you
to do something. What are you gonna do? Jump off
the bridge?

Speaker 3 (40:08):
No?

Speaker 2 (40:09):
But like what do you do? And I think that's
something that we all have to rally about. And I
don't know the answer in this moment. Good goodness, God
do I not know? But I want to know so
that you know, in honor of them, we can fight
back a little bit because how they were treated, and frankly,
how they were mistreated is something that should never be forgotten.

(40:31):
And body you're living at real time, I see it
in your eyes. All of us are in courtney as well.
They are They should be our heroes to fight and
we should dissect that. Think about it.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
Like Libby had the bravery to take out her phone
and she she was kind of hidden like he didn't
know she was recording. She and oh, by the way,
I don't know if you know this about Libby German,
the victim and this one of the victims in this case,
she was, she loved to crime.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
She wanted, she wanted. She was smart enough to let
you know how scared you must she want to be
tack your phone out. So this one, that's the wherewithal
By the way, that's how we're solving this crime is
because of her footage. Because of that is the only
reason that there is any investigation to be had. Frankly,
how the bodies were discovered in body, I don't want to,

(41:21):
you know, speak for you. I've only heard this via you, Frankly,
and the reports that I've read. You know, this is
a scene that was pretty unspeakable. It was unspeakable, Frankly.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
So Libby, Libby was Libby was nude, and Abby was
dressed in Libby's clothing, and they had like these branches
over their bodies, which you know in the Frank's memorandum
that I talked about in the prior segment. They are
kind of laid in a in a very weird pattern.
But the state argued that it was just you know,

(41:53):
to cover the bodies, to hide them. But there was
only like two or three like thin branches. They weren't
literally covering them at all, meaning.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
The Richard Allen who's been accused and convicted, and he
was trying to cover it up with branches as like
you know, like oh, nineties a year. It was like
this is a bush, whereas if it had been some
sort of like you know, craft or some sort of
like Satanic rituals, Well, they said it was an Odinist room.

Speaker 3 (42:22):
And if you know what a rune is, they're like
those weird letters you know that that mean things. And this,
you know, the SBI memorandum imply was saying that they
were runs, that they were these Odinist runs, and that
this was a supervice to Odin's.

Speaker 2 (42:41):
It's meaning the branches were put together to sort of.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
Spell out like symbolize, yeah, to spell out hal Odin
or something similar. I'd have to re refresh my memory,
but basically interested in and so you know, they were
you know, it is interest saying you know, again poor
you know, poor at Libby was nude and Abby was

(43:06):
wearing Libby's clothing, and they were significantly different body styles,
you know, And so it's we still don't know why
Abby was wearing Wibby's clothes. We have we that was
never explained. It wasn't part of the explanation. I heard
reporters talk about that. We're inside the courtroom, we don't know.

(43:29):
It's just it's very interesting.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
One other thing I again outsider looking in take away,
that I have heard you say, is that Richard Allen,
who's now serving time for these he's been convicted and
found guilty.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
One thing that I always thought was interesting too, is
that he actually kind of came forward to say to
law enforcement at the time of these murders, hey, look,
I know there's all this talk about this murder. Oh
my goodness, these murderers. And by the way, I was
like walking in the area. I was actually doing my hike.
And he went to law enforce law enforcement to kind

(44:03):
of give his his you know, version of what he
did he saw that day he did, and then they
circled back to that and that used that against him
essentially correct.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
He met with a resource officer at a grocery store
parking lot and they questioned him. He was like, yeah,
I was there looking at fish after I went and
visited my mom and something apparently he said he did often.
I don't know if that's true or not, but it's
something that he said he did often. And uh, and

(44:33):
then he left and he but he said he was
there at a different time and that's happened. And he
gave the officer his phone. The officer wrote down like
his you know ESID ID and all that. But when
they went to arrest him five years later, that was
the only phone he did not.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
In question. Did he call law enforcement or did law enforcement.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
He told his wife that, oh, I was at the
park today, and she said, you need to call the
cops and tell them, and he said, okay, and he did.
He called them, he reached out to them and you
named met him. Yeah, And then there was you know,
this case was open for so long and the police
were asking for you know, social media people to look
at Bridge guy and figure out if they knew who

(45:17):
he was. Richard Allen never left the small city of
Delphi in the entire time that they were looking for
this man, which you know, if I had done something
like this, I probably would have left town.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
He left.

Speaker 3 (45:30):
It's just listen, a lot of people think he's guilty,
and I respect that opinion. A lot of people don't,
and I also respect that opinion. I'm kind of in
the middle. I don't. I feel very uneasy about this case.
I remember speaking to you in this verdict. Time makes
me so you had that same experience, and I was
surprised to hear it. So we're going to continue to
dig in complicated stuff.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
We're so glad you're here. Keep this coming, keep your
conversation points, give us some talkbacks. We'll be right back.
By the way, we're going to get some safety tips
about how to keep ourselves a little bit more safe
on the internet. Taha saying no, We'll be right back.
This is True Crime Tonight, Welcome Measure Drive Tonight on iHeartRadio.

(46:20):
We're talking true crime all the time. Stephanie Leidecker here
of course, with Courtney Armstrong and body move in. So listen.
If you've missed any of the first part of the show,
you can always catch it as a podcast right after,
and also you can join the conversation eight eight eight
three one crime. We definitely want to hear from you

(46:40):
or leave us a talk back, or you could always
hit us up in our socials. So so much more
to cover. So body, where should we begin?

Speaker 3 (46:49):
Okay, do you remember this mom that witnessing that we
talked about a little tiny bit earlier. So yes, I'm
going to give you the story from the beginning. But
we talked about this like a tiny little bit. Okay,
is Britney, My little little one is very upset, right y,
I'm very start tonight. Yeah, little little studio guest. So
Brittany Guard. She's forty six years old, Indiana mother. She

(47:11):
went missing and there was a suspicious house fire on
September thirtieth, and she went missing. She was found alive
after calling nine to one one from a wooded area
two and a half miles from her home and is
currently receiving medical treatment. She disappeared on the evening of
the thirtieth after smoke was seen her Bainbridge, Indiana home,

(47:33):
where like the Super Suss fire had occurred. Despite family
and law enforcement searching for a long time and there
was like drones, they had everything looking for her and
tracking her phone. She remained missing for over a week
until she called nine to one one that led to
her discovery. She was located alive. Last night. There was

(47:55):
like this breaking news that came out. She was found,
thank god, in the halls. Would nature preserve? She herself
called nine one one about five thirty pm, requesting help
to find her way out of the woods. Responding officers
and conservation officers quickly found her following the phone call.
She was medically evaluated and transported to Hendrix's Health Hospital.

(48:19):
Authorities confirmed there was no current threat to the public
and no indication anyone else has involved. The Putnam County
Sheriff's Office continues to investigate the circumstances of her disappearance
and of course the fire on our house. Her family expressed,
you know, obviously they were very relieved to find her,
in gratitude towards the teams and the community support. Like

(48:43):
the news stations were all rallying around this family trying
to get the word out, and the family was just,
you know, very grateful. It was very touching, actually, they
were very grateful. Now it remains unclear how she ended
up in the woods or where she was, you know,
during the fire and this missing week, it's kind of
like a little like a.

Speaker 4 (49:01):
Week, really long time to be gone from your life
for anyone, particularly a mother, particularly.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
Right and her car and her purse remained at the house.
So October first, there was smoke reported coming from her residence,
and you know, this fire was labeled suspicious from the start.
They couldn't find her, and the night before the daughter
had a volleyball game that mom.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Didn't show up to, which was unusual. She missed her.

Speaker 3 (49:30):
Jolly's bottyball game to day she disappeared. It was a
media concern. Law enforcement, including the Indiana State Police and
the FBI, joined local agencies in this week long search.
Wow she was found, it I don't know, and they
haven't given us any indication on what happened to her.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
She's still in the hospital.

Speaker 5 (49:50):
Okay, So she hasn't explained.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
Kidnapped, maybe she was taken, maybe, and any of those
things are possible.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
I think there's probably three things that are possible.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
Kidnapped, maybe there was some kind of mental breakdown and
she kind of just wandered off. And I'm not saying anything.
I'm not you know, criticizing her, and everybody has and Listen,
these are heavy times, right, Like I'm on the verge myself, right,
you know, so because her car and her purse were
left at home, it's just but she had her phone.

Speaker 5 (50:22):
She did have her phone with her.

Speaker 3 (50:23):
She did, Yeah, she had her phone. So we're gonna
they and the search efforts at her.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
And she wasn't trying to be like, she wasn't trying
to be found dead, you know, she wasn't like going
away forever. But well, she wasn't staging her death for example.

Speaker 3 (50:41):
Well not that we know of it. And she's the
one who called nine one one, right, and we the
law enforcement hasn't told us what their investigatgatory angle is
like kidnapping, you know, runaway, your mental breakdown. We have
no idea because its possible something there was some maybe

(51:02):
there was some kind of home invasion and she was
kidnapped and they set the house on fire before they left.
You know that's possible, right, Or is it possible that she,
you know, wanted to get away from it all and
did it herself. I don't know, We don't. We have
no idea.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
Talk about it.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
Lose lose, yeah, I know. But thankfully she's safe. Mom,
has you know, a daughter and she's got kids, you know,
like you know, nobody wants a dead mom, right, So
thank god she was found saved this.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
Yeah, but way, it's been a long time, you know,
this has been a week, a whole seven days harrowing for.

Speaker 5 (51:38):
Fa for well, that's what my first thought was, like,
how did did she have food? And like what is
she eating?

Speaker 3 (51:45):
Well, we don't know if she was in the woods
the whole time. I mean, she could have been at
the day's in or something I don't know.

Speaker 4 (51:51):
Well, particularly with the FBI and other agencies looking for her,
it would be somewhat surprising if she was just sort
of quote out there.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
What's interesting too. Courtney and I worked on a documentary
called Murdered and Missing in Montana and it was basically
centered around a certain reservation, a Native American reservation where
a lot of girls had gone missing. And when the
show was about to air, we thought, let's get every
missing person known that's ever been missing from a reservation

(52:25):
and we'll show their pictures at the very end, and
maybe you know that drudge up some awareness, right And
legally we were not allowed to because when you think
about it, who's to say, who's missing. They were unsafe
and they were running away from something for their own

(52:46):
personal safety, and here you are putting it on the
news that they're missing, so everyone's trying to grab them
and find them and bring them back home, maybe to
where the abuse was. That's just think about missing. Nothing
to do with this is like a general missing people
are allowed to go. Missing people are allowed a way missing. Yeah,

(53:08):
you're allowed to dip from your Yeah, yeah you are.
You are allowed to dip from your life. And moreover,
if you're feeling unsafe or you feel as though you're
in company that is not respecting you being there and
you feel like it's time to go, you're allowed to
until there's a documentary with your missing photo on it

(53:31):
and like people are trying to drag you back there.
And I never had thought about it. And by the way,
that's a really good point. And legally that was something
that was like a checkpoint where you can't not see that.
When you think about it that way, you're like, well,
of course, that's why we can't do it. Even if
the intention was so altruistic. You know, you got to
be careful. You know, one thing you can't do person

(53:56):
to set your house on fire and run from it.

Speaker 4 (53:59):
That's a lot well, but it's interesting because if you do,
because that causes a it can cause harm to you know,
property around you, and also put firefighters in danger and
other people in danger. Sure, but then also while it's
not illegal to leave your life and disappear, if then

(54:21):
a manhunt with multiple agency of resources.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
And that reminds me of Sherri is there some me? Right?
So that's the infamous woman, the blonde woman who left.
She really basically wanted to leave her husband and she
like showed up after a very long manhunt to find her,
you know, beaten up and chained and all the things
she was training that she was like with her she

(54:48):
was branding right, that's right. And she was beaten and
bruised and her hair was cut, hospitalized and then turns
out she was with her ex boyfriend. Oof. That's all fun.
We'll see what she is well, and I hope that
in this particular case that she is well and welcomed

(55:08):
home and that all is right in her world for sure.

Speaker 4 (55:14):
This is Shoecram tonight. We're on iHeartRadio and we have
been talking about Britney Guard will keep you up to
date on more information on that case as it comes out.
She's the mother who went missing and has now gratefully
been found. So I want to transition to another story.

(55:34):
There's new Liverly's bodycam footage and it shows Charlie and
Donna Adelson. I can't and they as a reminder, they
are both now incarcerated following their convictions in the twenty
fourteen murder for Higher plot on of Dan markel Dan

(55:56):
Markelle was a Florida State University law professor. He was
murdered outside his home eleven years ago. And this murder
for Higher scheme was orchestrated by his former in laws,
and so Donna Adelson is Dan's former mother in law.
Charlie is his former brother in law right, and this

(56:17):
is all led to have occurred over a custody dispute
with Dan. So really just a tragedy, just a waste
of this man's life. There are multiple people in prison now,
it's Charlie and Donna Adelson, and then there is also
the murder for Higher plot embroiled to other people who

(56:39):
are also now behind bars. But what's brand brand new
in the news is that Charlie and Donna. So mother
and son. They're getting real combative and entitled in jail,
and it seems like they are having a tough time acclimating.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
This is kind of like a semi wealthy family. I
think they're used getting what they want, right, little spoiled
a little bit. What were we calling her killer Granny?
Is that I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
That might have been something that I said. I think
it was on a catchphrase. But she's kind of the
killer granny she is.

Speaker 3 (57:19):
And she remember when she got sent when she she
got found guilty, and she was like.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
Oh, like she was, she was so shocked that they've
been sobbing. Dare they?

Speaker 3 (57:28):
How dare they find me guilty?

Speaker 2 (57:29):
Like, Granny, there's a lot of evidence stacked against you
right now. By the way, Granny, everyone's turning on you.
It's pretty clear that you did it. And she was
sobbing and like desperate and really surprised, it seems when
she was actually found guilty and she had like turned
on her entire family, she almost threw her own daughter

(57:50):
under the bus.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
She might in the closing arguments, Yes, by the way,
she just.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Her family, By the way, she's trying to defend her
family which is what this whole like m is about
to like get her grandkids closer and her daughter closer.
Yet she threw the daughter under the bus in closing arguments.

Speaker 3 (58:07):
He did, Wendy Granny, I expect her to be arrested
any day now, I really do.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Yeah, Granny, well because of Granny. By the way, daughter
can thank mom her granny for setting her up. I mean,
what do you.

Speaker 4 (58:24):
Donna is a mess this grandma. So she in that courtroom,
the outburst that you mentioned, I mean it was so
sort of big and over the top that the judge
had to quiet her down. Oh yeah, So here is
an audio clip we're going to play, and this is
of Granny's son, Charlie, and you'll hear him yelling at

(58:46):
a worker in the prison from really behind a jar,
a slightly open door. Sorry, can you pick the six spot?
Start to really congratulations.

Speaker 11 (59:11):
Standing here in your excuse me, I don't know what.

Speaker 4 (59:21):
He's on the side, like someone with a brain, Charlie Adelson.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
He's not creating that guard, he's buriating that guard. But like,
can you imagine like having a very big life, lots
of affluents, lots of access, and suddenly you are behind
bars and you have to report to everyone, and yeah,
that's what happens. You're like, you think you have power

(59:55):
to throw around. No, no, it's about a real long
time behind bars. It's a a long time. You gotta
get in line, and he is not getting in line.

Speaker 10 (01:00:05):
No.

Speaker 4 (01:00:06):
And Donna, Grandma, she also was very upset and she
was caught on video and she's arguing with jail's staff.
This is after her conviction, and it was a really
stark contrast. She just is is poudy and Charlie is
being described as entitled and out of touch with the

(01:00:28):
reality of prison life because you know, a body, to
your earlier point, it was pretty privileged lives they live,
for sure, So this is a big He.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
Was a dentist. Oh, that's right, he was a dentist.

Speaker 4 (01:00:42):
That's a dentist.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Sometimes get a little depressed. That is a very depressing job. Apparently.
By the way, my dentist is very merry and lovely.
He's doctor Zolas. He's so nice. But there are statistics
that would suggest that dentistry is a depressing industry.

Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
I likes, right, It's not the favorite thing to do,
but it takes.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
Nobody likes to find out they have brain cancer, but
they still go to specialists. So like if you go
to the dentist, they're making your teeth problems better. So
why are we blaming the dentists.

Speaker 4 (01:01:20):
Well, my understanding is a lot of it also because
I do think it's very interesting how high the levels
of depression have been around happiness. And there's also a
monotony for someone who is that highly trained versus, as
you said, going to a brain doctor, there's less monotony,
or even a foot doctor.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
Are you a foot doctor? Really?

Speaker 4 (01:01:40):
Yeah, I don't know what I've heard, but listen, keep
it here. I'm no dentist. We are unpacking true crime
and Chill Pick Netflix's adolescens, and it's going to bring
us a little bit into the world of in cells,
which of course is the basis of the beginning of it.
Keep it here, True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanieleidecker here as always
with Courtney Armstrong and Body Move In. By the way,
Taha and Sam and Adam are here as well, So
listen True Crime and show We talked about this a lot.
This is a heavy one. Adolescence was a series that

(01:02:31):
we have all now watched. Hopefully you guys have as well.
Please join the conversation if you have, because it's a
heavy one, so we really do need the dialogue. Adolescence
on Netflix kind of knocks your socks off, by the way.
We're making the podcast in cells, not because of Adolescence.

(01:02:52):
We have been talking about it quite a bit prior,
but boy did that bring that to the front line
and it really showed how important the conversation is to
be having with young adults and young men especially, and
it's dark. So we also have Jessica Kaplan, our very
favorite family therapist and marriage as well. She's here Thursday.

(01:03:16):
We like to do a little therapy on Thursday, so
if you have any questions for her, both on that
topic or any that we've covered, jump in eight at
eight three one Crime Ladies, what do you think?

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
I You know, I really wasn't sure what to expect
when I started this. I had like this vague idea,
but I just I was blown away by how actually
could this was? You know, it did the it's just
like this dynamic forbidden like taboo subject that was so

(01:03:50):
beautifully told. I think, right, you know this little girl,
Why don't should we give spoilers? Are we allowed to do?

Speaker 6 (01:03:56):
I think maybe we give a little spoiler alert, but
I think maybe we just kind of set the stage
of what it's about.

Speaker 4 (01:04:02):
Yeah, it's been out since March, so that feels like
fair game. It's been through the awards circuit, so I'm
spoiler alert if you haven't turned your TV on in
nine months or however long it's been so. Adolescence is
on Netflix and it's a four part British crime drama.
It's filmed and executed beautifully. Each of the four episodes

(01:04:26):
is a single, continuous take. It's crazy. It's crazy, it's
an acting. We don't need to get into the whole
ciscal and eager Ebert because you mentioned. But what it
does is it really immerses you. When you're watching it,
you just feel like you're there and everything is so
present and palpable and adolescence. It goes into the story

(01:04:47):
of a thirteen year old boy. His name's Jamie Miller.
Couldn't be picture the most normal boy you've ever seen
in your life, going to school, sweetheart, nice family and
he is accused of murdering his classmate Katie Leonard. And
we see this in real tim we see it told

(01:05:07):
through the perspective of Jamie's parents and through the detective
through a forensic psychologist. And what really sort of kicks
or doesn't kick everything off in the sequence of how
it plays out. But what kicked all of this off
is really the misogyny online misogyny. And as Stephanie mentioned

(01:05:29):
earlier in doing in Cells, we have been absolutely knee
deep in the manosphere and misogyny and literally, parents of boys,
this stuff is being shot like out of multiple rockets
at your children. You don't need to go looking for it.
It is looking for them. I don't say that to
fear monger. I say that because we've now spoken with

(01:05:52):
enough doctors and scientists and statisticians to prove that that's
what's happening. So again to something for us to be
aware of as we collectively are raising young men. And
I'm going to hop off my soapbox right now and
Jess what are your Do you have top line thoughts

(01:06:13):
as a therapist on adolescence or any of the manosphere.

Speaker 8 (01:06:18):
Yeah, I do. It's really interesting.

Speaker 12 (01:06:23):
I think that there was this perfect storm of the
pandemic which brought every child inside into their home for
a prolonged period of time where they didn't have a
lot of social contact or social outreach, and it created
a lot of social isolation.

Speaker 8 (01:06:47):
For a lot of boys.

Speaker 12 (01:06:48):
And young men, which is one of the predictors of
them being influenced by in cell culture is this feeling
of feeling isolated, not having a lot of social support,
being introverts, maybe a little socially awkward, not having a

(01:07:09):
sense of belonging. For a lot of boys, that's their reality.
There's an overlap, there's an overlap of are these young
men or boys feeling socially isolated, not having a sense
of belonging.

Speaker 8 (01:07:26):
That's number one. And then also.

Speaker 12 (01:07:31):
Usually there's a mental health issue component also that's a
piece of this, that these boys are suffering with some
element of depression or anxiety or other mental health issue.

Speaker 8 (01:07:45):
That also is a piece of this.

Speaker 12 (01:07:49):
And then what happens is they find a sense of
belonging online in these echo chambers that exist where you're
just getting constant validation around your feelings of being victimized
as a boy or a young man in a culture

(01:08:13):
where they start to feel like the feminist belief system
is an attack on them and that they are actually
the victims.

Speaker 8 (01:08:27):
And then they go online.

Speaker 12 (01:08:29):
And if you're socially isolated, the only way you're going
to find that connection is through other people like you online.
So then you're just validating and reflecting and mirroring back
and forth these feelings of feeling isolated, feeling victimized, not

(01:08:49):
being chosen, feeling like girls and young women have the
upper hand.

Speaker 8 (01:08:57):
And I think that.

Speaker 12 (01:09:02):
Right now we're still struggling with all of those elements.

Speaker 8 (01:09:06):
And it's interesting. I have three children.

Speaker 12 (01:09:11):
I have two daughters and a son, and my son
is the youngest. He's eighteen, and his sisters are twenty
one and twenty three. And I remember when he was
around fifteen or sixteen, so this was a few years
ago we were sort of just starting to come out
of the pandemic.

Speaker 8 (01:09:32):
I remember him.

Speaker 12 (01:09:35):
Posing a lot of questions to his sisters and to
me about how he felt like things were unfair for
boys and men. He started to just kind of push
a little and question almost like this idea of chivalry

(01:09:57):
is really what he was using as an example of,
like why should it be accepted that men are going
to pay for everything. Why should men be holding the
doors for women? You know, these kinds of questions, which
I thought was really interesting, And at the time, I

(01:10:20):
was just starting to become aware of this kind of
like red pilling of boys on the internet, and it
was alarming. It set off a little alarm bell in me.
And the way I decided to approach this was to

(01:10:40):
ask a lot of questions, to try not to be
judgmental or punishing, but to just try to get a
better understanding of where he was getting this information from
that was making him kind of consider these questions and
pose these questions to us and why is he feeling

(01:11:02):
this way? Where has he heard this? Tell me more?
And I think that's really the important piece of this
is that when our boys and our young men start
to show signs that they might be influenced by this culture,
that the key is to just create a safe space

(01:11:27):
where they feel like they can, in a non punishing,
non judgmental way, bring their concerns to family people that
they care about, because that's the only way to start
influencing them in a positive way, to start thinking a

(01:11:49):
little bit differently about the information that they're getting in
these echo chambers online is to just be curious and
open and for them to feel like they're not being judged,
that they're You're trying to understand and have compassion for
where they're coming from, right, And I think that makes
a big difference.

Speaker 8 (01:12:09):
So that's a start.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
I think, yeah, and I mean that sound. That is
a great advice and would be a great start for
this really complex issue that just seems to be touching
more and more boys and men do a lot of
As you said, the pandemic was a bit of a
boiling point and drove people in solitude and people have

(01:12:34):
had a hard time coming out of it. Listen, we're
talking about true crime. Excuse me, we're talking about adolescence,
and we'd love to hear your thoughts. We're at eight
to day, three to one crime and Jess is here
for therapy Thursday, and she is helping us out on
a little bit how to even begin to approach managing

(01:12:58):
this proliferation of really toxic and potentially dangerous information that
is coming at boys and men.

Speaker 3 (01:13:07):
And I think it's in speaking about adolescence. You know,
the Little Boy in the movie or the show Jamie
and the little girl Katie, he does kill her, like
we know that, and we don't really know, like there's
not one singular reason, but the idea is and we

(01:13:28):
learned this throughout the show that Katie kind of rejects
his advances. She tells him, what does she say, I'm
not that desperate, and she actually calls him an insult, right,
and and then he's you know, he starts looking up
like things in the man of sphere and becomes kind
of internally right, and he's only thirteen.

Speaker 5 (01:13:50):
That was the shocking part to me, so young.

Speaker 3 (01:13:52):
Teen years old. I found that one part a little strange.
I think I think it's important for parents to, you know,
teenage boys obviously, to be very aware of all this.
And also, by the way, it's also interesting how the
parents are portrayed in this as well. They really do
a lot of self reflecting, right, Like I did feel

(01:14:15):
I felt so bad for them at the end with
the Teddy Bear.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
Yeah, oh it was just I mean, because this is
a little kid.

Speaker 3 (01:14:21):
He's a little boy, right anyway, So Katie rejects his advances,
and after that rejection, he kind of internalizes it as
like I've been victimized because I was rejected because she's
also kind of like online bullying him a little bit too,
you know, yeah, she's kind of like making fun of him,

(01:14:43):
like emojis and whatnot. And listen, this is how kids
communicate now, right. We have to learn, as the elders, mean,
what means mean, what what emojis mean?

Speaker 10 (01:14:54):
What?

Speaker 4 (01:14:55):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:14:55):
I did a little cry face emoji on somebody one
day and They're like, why are you laughing at me?

Speaker 5 (01:14:59):
And I'm like, I'm not, I'm crying.

Speaker 3 (01:15:02):
That's laughing now. And I'm like what.

Speaker 6 (01:15:06):
Even in the movie in the series where there was
an explanation of what each of these emotions.

Speaker 3 (01:15:11):
And it's almost like as a parent nowadays, you have
to learn new language.

Speaker 8 (01:15:19):
Yes, And I think.

Speaker 12 (01:15:23):
This, this whole situation, I think really puts a spotlight.

Speaker 8 (01:15:31):
On how important.

Speaker 12 (01:15:32):
It is to try to limit as much as we
can as parents are, children's access to social media and
really phone usage. I mean, the book The Anxious Generation
really highlights this point that what's happening and the effects

(01:15:57):
to boys versus girls is different and influencing them in
different ways. But I think about the movie Adolescens and
how the parents are portrayed as very loving pairing, stable,
engaged parents.

Speaker 8 (01:16:17):
And the time that their son was.

Speaker 12 (01:16:22):
Alone with his phone in his room, alone with his phone,
was when all of this damage was done. And I
think many of us as parents, we can relate to
how much, when we really think about it, how much
unsupervised time our children have on their phones on the
internet where they can be influenced in this way. And

(01:16:48):
the laws around managing social media and negative social media
input just cannot keep up with the pace at which
everything is developed via social media. It's close to impossible
because making laws in Congress is such a slow process

(01:17:09):
to kind of try to set limitations on all of this,
and so now it really is up to the parents
to do it. And it's being recommended that children not
get a phone until age sixteen. And if you think
sixteen is the recommended age, now that's tough. That's tough
to think about for and there's tons of ramifications for

(01:17:31):
that too.

Speaker 8 (01:17:32):
Right, kid not having a phone until sixteen.

Speaker 3 (01:17:35):
Right, We'll stick around.

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):
We're going to continue this conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:17:37):
This is kind of an important conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
So we're going to continue this conversation. We've got more
to dig into.

Speaker 3 (01:17:41):
Keep it right here, True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:17:53):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. Stephanie Leidecker here as always
with Courtney Armstrong, Body move in, and yes we have
Taha and Sam and Adam here as well. True Crime
and Chill night. By the way, Jessica Kaplan marriage and
family therapist here in the studio to give us really

(01:18:15):
some great perspective on our assignment Adolescence. Hopefully you've watched
it on Netflix. What a powerful, powerful series. Also, please
check out In Cells, our podcast also on iHeartRadio. You
can download it now, Episode three, just a mirrored and
it's excellent, same topic, same idea. Adolescence really does sort

(01:18:38):
of rip open the conversation about In Cells, and Jessica
is kind of lending a helpful hand as we talk
about this, so let's go straight toward talk back.

Speaker 13 (01:18:50):
So I'm watching Adolescent and I have two toddlers that
just started school, and while I'm watching this, all I
can think of is, oh, my.

Speaker 8 (01:19:00):
God, kids are so mean.

Speaker 13 (01:19:03):
They're out of control in this show. And that's honestly
how it is in some schools, like they do not
have any control over any of those kids in this series.

Speaker 3 (01:19:16):
Yeah, it's a different it's a different world relevant in right.
I mean, the Internet makes people just so mean. I
don't have children. It's hard for me to talk about
it like it's because I'm not a parent. But if
I were, I'd like to think my kids would definitely
not have access to the Internet unless I was sitting
there with them at the kitchen table, if I had
the privilege to do so while they're doing their homework,

(01:19:38):
and that's it.

Speaker 4 (01:19:39):
Well to what age out of curiosity? And I know
this is a made up scenario probably. I mean I
for me, probably fifteen fourteen or.

Speaker 5 (01:19:47):
Fifteen fourteen or fifteen before you let them go on
the internet and read alone.

Speaker 3 (01:19:54):
Yeah wow, yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:19:55):
Okay, but they start. I mean, I don't have a
child either, so baby one who has kids can tell me.

Speaker 3 (01:20:02):
I know, it's a lot easier so than done. So
let me let me preface it with that. I know
it's a lot easier so than done. It's easy for
me to sit here and be like, well, if I
had kids, I you know, I told yeah, because most.

Speaker 4 (01:20:13):
Schools starting way younger, but they're supervised.

Speaker 3 (01:20:17):
They're in the classroom with the teacher, right or no.

Speaker 5 (01:20:19):
But what about when they're home, like for homework assignments
that they have to do.

Speaker 3 (01:20:23):
Like I said, I would be sitting at the kitchen
table with them if I had the privilege to do so.
They wouldn't have a phone, No way would they have
a phone, a tablet. They wouldn't have any of those things.
They would have some sort of silly chromebook that I
had control over.

Speaker 4 (01:20:38):
And that's it what you thought on this just.

Speaker 8 (01:20:45):
It's so complicate. It is it is so I know many.

Speaker 12 (01:20:48):
Factors here, but I would so first off, I would
say the main goal is to try to delay as
long as you possibly can giving your children access to
social media.

Speaker 4 (01:21:05):
And.

Speaker 12 (01:21:08):
Most mental health professionals are recommending that at least high
school if you can, If you can make it all
the way to ninth grade without giving your children a
phone that has access to social media, that's that's what

(01:21:30):
the recommendations are. That's a lot easier said than done.
The biggest obstacle to that that I see is that
it's hard if you're the only parent right that is
putting those restrictions on your kid, because then you're grappling

(01:21:51):
with your kid being an outsider. If all the other
children have phones in social media, they have snow Chat,
they're all communicating through and now your kid's left out
that and then you're you know, I kind of equate
it to adults and like water cooler talk, like in
the office. It's like, as an adult, you want to

(01:22:14):
be able to participate in the water cooler talk. You
want to know kind of like what's going on in
the world and what the trendiest topic is like.

Speaker 8 (01:22:23):
And that creates a sense of belonging to your group.

Speaker 12 (01:22:29):
And if you're a child and you're the only one
in your friend group that doesn't have a phone, you
are left out and that has a lot of negative
psychological impacts on a child. So as a parent, you
have to weigh the pros and cons of if I'm
the one parent that's not allowing my thirteen or fourteen

(01:22:53):
year old or these days even twelve year old to
not have a phone, is it worth them feeling ostracized
from their friend group and not included. And I think
what needs to start happening is that the parents that

(01:23:13):
are part of.

Speaker 8 (01:23:14):
Their children are all part of the same friend group.

Speaker 12 (01:23:17):
That those parents need to come together and they need
to decide as a group to have a pact of
sticking together and not letting any of those children in
the group have a phone until a certain time. And
that way it's more normalized. Your child doesn't feel like
they're the only one without a phone. And then those

(01:23:39):
kids need to communicate and socialize in traditional ways like
we're all we all remember doing where you're actually like
calling each other on the landline.

Speaker 4 (01:23:51):
Do those even any more compassion? I don't know, that's
a good question.

Speaker 12 (01:23:58):
Maybe they're calling their parents cell phone and using that.

Speaker 5 (01:24:01):
I'm not sure something right.

Speaker 12 (01:24:03):
Yeah, But the idea is and and by the way,
to to your point, there are so many phones now
that have been created where you can text. You can text,
you can make phone calls, you can listen to music,

(01:24:25):
but you can't access the internet, you can't access any
social media. You know, maybe that's an option for because
I think another issue here is I think that schools
are getting a lot of pressure from parents, and especially
in today's world where parents don't feel secure in the

(01:24:47):
fact that their kids are going to be safe at
school anymore, because that's the epidemic of school shootings, that
parents want to be able to get in contact with
their kids and for their kids to get in contact
with them. So that's another element here that I think
there's a lot of schools that are trying to put
in new rules around you no phones during the school day,

(01:25:11):
You give up your phone when you get to school,
you give it up, you get it back at the
end of the day. And those these administrators are getting
a lot of pushback from parents because parents.

Speaker 8 (01:25:23):
Don't like that.

Speaker 12 (01:25:24):
They want to be able to have access to be
able to reach out and text and contact their kids
throughout the day.

Speaker 8 (01:25:30):
So that's another element.

Speaker 2 (01:25:31):
Of pressure here.

Speaker 12 (01:25:32):
Sure where if we think about these kids having the
phones where they can still be reached via text and
phones when their parents want to reach them, but they're
not having access to social media, maybe that's like a
middle middle ground there that could be a compromise.

Speaker 4 (01:25:50):
Because it is it's so complicated. I mean, even are
you aware not to put you on the spot of
apps like bark Bar, which alert parents if there is it,
alerts if there is a profanity. You can set different levels,
but bark will tell you, okay, there's a profanity, there's

(01:26:13):
a reference to violence, there's a reference to sex, whatever
is in your thing. But then even as a parent,
my understanding sometimes the bark, the notifications themselves are like
an impossibility to keep up with in reality life because

(01:26:37):
you know, depending upon how sensitive your settings are, a
sex can be taken out of context and do you
know what I mean? And then yeah, what do you do?

Speaker 12 (01:26:45):
And I understand like the the point behind that, But
on a realistic level, I feel like that is just
so much to put on a parent's plate to manage.

Speaker 4 (01:27:00):
Just I think.

Speaker 12 (01:27:01):
It's it, you know, the idea of it makes sense,
but when put into practice, it's just it's so overwhelming
as a parent to now you're managing all day long,
you know, every little thing that's that you're.

Speaker 2 (01:27:17):
Getting, and it's circumventable too, right.

Speaker 8 (01:27:20):
Yes, that's the other thing too.

Speaker 12 (01:27:21):
I've found with all of my children who are young
adults now, they're so much smarter than me around all
of this. We have this joke in my family where
whenever I'm having a tech issue of some kind and
I go to any of my children and they fix
it in two seconds.

Speaker 8 (01:27:41):
I say to them, it's your synapses. It's synapses, because.

Speaker 12 (01:27:45):
Literally, like they've grown up and their brain has developed
in a way where they have this intuitive understanding of
the way technology works.

Speaker 8 (01:27:56):
That we will never have.

Speaker 12 (01:27:58):
Right when our brains were developing, this didn't exist, and
so they are always ten steps ahead. So you can
try to come up with all of these fancy ways
to manage this, but in the end, you're putting so
much more work on your plate and it's exhausting and overwhelming,
and they're just gonna outsmart us anyway. So I feel

(01:28:18):
like at the end of the day, it just makes
more sense to have a very very firm boundary around,
like you don't have a phone, or you don't have
a phone with social media, or I'm taking your phone
for these hours during the day, or the phone's coming
in with it's in my bedroom at night when when

(01:28:39):
we go to sleep, so that as a parent, you're
not putting more work on yourself to try and like
manage things all day as these things come in from
apps like Bark where you're trying to live right.

Speaker 2 (01:28:53):
Yeah, exactly right.

Speaker 3 (01:28:55):
This is your crime tonight and iHeartRadio where we talk
true crime all the time. I'm body moving and I'm
here with Courtney Armstrong, ta has with us Stephanie Leidecker,
and we are joined by the wonderful Jessica Kaplan, and
we're talking about true our True Crime and Chill segment
and the Netflix series Adolescents and kind of like talking about,
you know, what we've learned from watching the show and

(01:29:17):
ways to protect your kids and make them productive human beings.
It's a listen, this is a nuanced conversation. Join the
conversation eighty eight thirty one Crime and I know we
have another talk about Hey.

Speaker 10 (01:29:27):
Y'all, Jethinbama decided about True Crime and Chill tonight. So
the show's adolescence. Man, I just want to say that
I thoroughly enjoyed how it captured for different perspectives of
people involved. So the people involved in not just the investigation,

(01:29:48):
but like the parents of the perpetrators kids like to
really see what they go through. We don't really get
to see an inside of that, you know, So someone
who's commits the crime, how it affects their family like that.
Just really it was a great way of like giving

(01:30:12):
some insight into how it affects the family of someone
like that.

Speaker 3 (01:30:16):
Yeah, really good, thank you for the talk back. And
that's kind of like the ripple effect we talked about,
Like it just the victim obviously is affected and her
family is affected, but also his family they lost their son, Yeah,
you know, to this horrible crime and and this you know,
radical ideology. They've lost their their their child. It's and

(01:30:39):
the guilt of did we do enough? What did we do? Yes,
it's something that I did or didn't do, you know,
And I'm sure you know, I can't imagine what you know,
these these parents are going through. But it's just it's
just it's an important conversation to have, and that's.

Speaker 2 (01:30:57):
Why we chose this specific show.

Speaker 6 (01:31:00):
Yeah, I think that's what stood out the most to
me with it was I had never seen that side,
Like I never really thought about like the victim's family
or like how they society now looks at them like
they're spring painting things in their.

Speaker 4 (01:31:11):
Other perpetrators family, the.

Speaker 6 (01:31:13):
Perpetrator sorry, there perpetrators family. So it just really opened
my eyes to a whole different side.

Speaker 11 (01:31:20):
And I think that's an important scene point that the
series makes in showing that these parents really were doing
their best. They were two parents that were doing their
best and who really loved their son, and they were
working parents.

Speaker 8 (01:31:40):
And you can't have your eye on.

Speaker 12 (01:31:43):
Your thirteen year old child every second of every day,
and if they have a phone, there's just there's a
lot of a lot of time in the day where
they can be affected by these outside influences. And it's
I think it's probably the biggest issue affecting parents today.

(01:32:05):
You need to manage their children. Oh wow, social media
and the effects on them.

Speaker 3 (01:32:12):
Absolutely so this is something that parents are constantly thinking
about and trying to figure out are they doing the
right thing? Am I not doing the right thing?

Speaker 4 (01:32:20):
Oh?

Speaker 12 (01:32:21):
Wownd And it's so hard to It's just it's close
to impossible as an adult to try and stay on
top of every day there's something new, there's there's another development,
there's a new app. Oh you know, it's it's really
and the kids are are always kind of a few
steps ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:32:41):
Yeah, they are for sure. And you know, like that's
one thing like a lot of people say, is well,
oh I monitor on my kids social media and it's like, okay,
you're not really checking how many email addresses they've created,
you know what I mean, to create new accounts that
you don't know about, like the fin stuff, the fin stuff, right,
do you know what your.

Speaker 2 (01:32:58):
Kids Finsta is? Do you know what a Finn to
is I know you, but.

Speaker 3 (01:33:01):
Well you do I'm asking like the general, Yeah, the general. Anyway,
this is a really important conversation. We're going to continue
to have this conversation as the weeks evolved, so by
now this is thank you, thank.

Speaker 2 (01:33:13):
You, thank you, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:33:16):
Sunday we're going to have Josephcott Morgan. See you guys
later

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