The Epstein Blackmail Theory and Shocking Criminal Hoaxes

Emerging details in the ongoing Celeste Rivas Hernandez/D4VD case, as individuals close to them break their silence. Plus, the unusual congressional move preventing the release of the Epstein files, two recent cases involving individuals who staged shocking attacks on themselves, the Jussie Smollett hoax, and breaking Bryan Kohberger news. Tune in for all the details.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I head
UPKKE Studios where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries
and I get to be here every night with Courtney
Armstrong and Body Movin High Ladies.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
Hello, Hello, listen. It's been a pretty wild day.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
And here's to say, we have a stacked night of headlines,
so that people very close to David the pop star
in the celestrevis case, which is such a tragic one,
they're speaking out and they have a lot to say
on the topic, specifically about him. Also, yet another blocked
in the Epstein Files release, I mean a jodgeing one,

(01:00):
I might add. So we're going to unpack a lot
of that, and remember did He is back in court
on Friday, so you know, for the rest of the
week we are going to be unpacking the Didty case
in its entirety. Really more on that tomorrow, but something
we should all be looking out for closely. And also
later in the show, we're going to be unpacking the
biggest hoaxes. Remember Jesse Smollett, Oh yeah, of course, so

(01:24):
we're going to unpack that too. He has a new
documentary that dropped this summer and just sort of to
go through some of these poxes. We remember Sherry Peppini.
Of course, that a big one, but there's many more.
So stay with us.

Speaker 3 (01:38):
Scandalous ones, scans really scandalous. Yeah, we're going to try.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
To dissect it exactly, very recent and listen, we want
to make sure that you're joining us. Please jump in,
join the conversation eight eight eight three one crime. Or
you can of course leave us a talk back by
downloading the iHeartRadio app. It's free and when you do so,
you push the button in the right hand course and boom,
you are leaving a talk back on the show. Or

(02:03):
you can always hit us up in our socials. So
let's get this night started and go to a talk back.

Speaker 4 (02:10):
Right. This is so Tanna and I am from Alabama
and I want to make a comment about the David
Bert case. I am just concerned that we have a
fourteen year old that has a boyfriend that nobody, no
one knows about. How does this happen? It can't happen
in my house? And they think that she started dating
him before she was fourteen. This is here, y'all. We've

(02:31):
got to do better with our kids. We've got to
be better stewards of taking care of our kids. And
she just can't do what they want to do. They
have to do what we allow them to do. So
this is allowed, and somebody needs to look at her
parents being involved and hold them accountable because this should
never happen.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (02:52):
I mean, you know, that's a big opinion on a
big case. And you know, being stewards of children is
some I think all of us hold in high regard.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
It's also hard, you know.

Speaker 5 (03:04):
I think I'll need to reserve judgment myself until there's
so little information that's firmly out there.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
So that's kind of where I stand.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
And listen, this is not a stance, but I really
do understand what the caller is saying. I mean, listen,
at the time she was eleven years old allegedly when
this relationship may have started, right, So let's look at
that timeline. Eleven years old, we're talking six seventh grade. Again,
this little girl goes missing. We know that to be true.
Was she really missing? Was she really missing if in

(03:37):
fact mom or her brother were able to retrieve her
from this pop star's house at some point and bring
her back, only for her to go missing again. Again,
this is not casting judgment on the family. I just
think it's important for us to talk about because these
things do happen. And remember, this is a pop star,
somebody who's very affluent and famous, and it's probably a

(03:59):
very big life styles, so you can see how someone
can get very easily sucked into it. Imagine you're a
young girl and this is sort of your your way
to a big life. Maybe again, we don't know these details,
but and again to Courtney's point, we're not casting judgment.
It's just important details for us to discuss so we
can look around at our own lives and make sure

(04:19):
we're to our crawler's point that we're we're doing the
right thing and we're looking out.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
For each other. And you know, listen, I kind of
agree with you with you, Stephanie, like, yeah, I kind
of feel the same way as the caller, but I
also understand that life is hard, life is so hard,
and you know, we don't know the circumstances of the parents.
You know, are they working many jobs? Are they this
a busy household? Like, you know, they can't have a

(04:47):
twenty four hour seven eye on their children. I have
no idea about these parents, right, So it's hard, you know,
when we're reporting these stories to you know, cast these
aspersions on the the guardians of these children. Right, it's
hard to do that. But it's also hard not to
a little bit as well. Right, Like in our heads
we're like, whooh, I don't know, But at the same

(05:09):
time we have to kind of reserve that judgment and
wait for the facts to come out totally fair.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
And by the way our callers said everything, maybe that
I personally was too afraid to say to me friends.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
No, yeah, and thank you for play out.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Another another scenario could be that maybe you know, young
Celeste eleven years old, twelve years old. Again, their brains
aren't fully developed. Maybe she's fallen in love and is
you know, going to run away come hell or high
water to be with her, you know, her older boyfriend
who maybe she's lying to about her age. You know,
maybe David the pop star was unaware of her actual age.

(05:42):
That's very possible, isn't it possible?

Speaker 3 (05:45):
Well maybe, but somebody had to pick her up, right, right,
that's true. I can't drive. I'll be brief about this.

Speaker 5 (05:53):
But the circumstances remind me a little bit of Stephanie
when we were working on the murdered missing in Montana,
and so it opened my eyes to different perspectives of
different communities and people and culture that sometimes children go
and it's it is normal in their lives and circumstances
for their child to go someplace, to announce his house

(06:16):
to a friend house for I'm not talking a day
at a time, I'm talking five months at a time.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
And maybe the.

Speaker 5 (06:20):
Communications not great. Anyway it was, It doesn't correlate totally.
It just it upped my empathy and understanding. Working on that,
it opened your perspective a little bit. Correct, Sure, it
opened your perspective a little bit. And to you know,
the parents' credit, they did report her missing.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
Exactly, so it is clear that at some point they
didn't know where she was, right, but it does it
has also become, you know, to me, crystal clear that
she did leave and come back and leave and come back.
So I mean, maybe they thought she was going to
come back. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
And when I wasn't she in school? Is it fact
that she was not in school at that age?

Speaker 3 (07:01):
Think about that.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
That's like also, I don't know if that's illegal, but
technically it should be. I mean, that's elementary school. In
middle school, you don't get to just drop out to Again,
our caller's point, you know, the kid doesn't call the
shots in that department. However, everybody can be tricky, and
you know, many lives have many different endings, and this
one is incredibly tragic. So we're really unpacking it less

(07:25):
of a place from judgment. It's really to better understand
it so that there can be some justice for Celeste,
because it does not appear that it's happening anytime soon.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
Right, well, let's get into it a little bit with David. Right, So,
just to bring everybody back up to speed on what
we're talking about. We're talking about Celestrievas Hernandez. She was
the fourteen year old little girl, and on September eighth,
so what twenty three days ago, her body was discovered
in David's tesla right in the trunk of this or Fronk,

(07:56):
I should say of this Tesla and he is a
kind of you know, emerging artist. He's very popular on
social media platforms. He streams on Twitch, he's very popular
on TikTok. He's on tour. He's doing a world tour, right,
and it is huge by the way. You know how
hard it is to get a world tour. I mean,

(08:16):
you have dates in Europe and Australia coming up, and
he's on a world tour. And while he's on this
world tour, in the middle of it, this little girl
is found in his trunk and she had been there
for many, many weeks. We don't know how long I'm estimating,
and you know, listen, I don't know anything, but I'm
estimating like end of July, mid July. She's been there

(08:38):
a hot minute. She's been in there for a while
in this trunk. No arrests have been made, and there's
you know, we don't even know if this is a homicideant, right,
We just don't know. The cops are being like really
tight lipped. Well over the course of the last twenty
three days, many people have started coming forward and talking
because listen, we're not getting anything from the cups. Right,

(09:00):
we're not getting anything because this is an active investigation.
They don't want to play their hand. So now people
are starting to get loose lips and yeah, starting to
talk a little bit. So we've heard from Celeste. You know,
she had this little boyfriend when she was in junior
high and he was appropriately aged. He was like a
year older than her, and you know their little high school,

(09:21):
little junior high, you know, little sweethearts. Right. Well, he's
come forward and in this video with his mom sitting
right next to him, he's, you know, telling the story.
We get to know Celeste a little bit more, which
is important, and it's not only important because she's our victim,
but victimology is so important when you're talking about cases, right,
so true to know about these victims and little Celeste.

(09:45):
He described his name as Damien, and he told he
had an interview with TMZ and he told TMZ she
often spoke about really disliking her home life. But you
know what we all did, didn't We all hate our
home life. It's prob, right, Yeah, it's a riot passage, right. So,
but Damien described her as kind and she was very serious,

(10:08):
so it seems like she was kind of mature like
in her in her ways. He described her as kind
and serious when they met, and said she never mentioned
any abuse, only tense family environment. Okay, so but again,
I'm putting myself back at that age, and oh my god,
my mom and I would have knocked down drag out fights, right,

(10:29):
so her hairbrush and my cattle, stupid thing. But it
was like the end of the world from me, of course.
Oh my life is over. Oh my god. You know
your neighbors. Now there has been a video that's come forward,
and it's a nest camera video and it was taken
in September, tragically, September eighth of twenty twenty four, exactly

(10:50):
a year before she was found, which is crazy to me.
That's the date on it. And this neighbor shows celested
in a shouting match outside her parents. It's home again,
you guys. She was reported missing in April of twenty
twenty four, and this video is September of twenty twenty four,
and it's at her parents' house. So it's clear to

(11:11):
me she had come back and left again. That's right,
isn't that? You know? I mean, it's kind of mind
blowing to me. So you know, she's in a shouting
match with her neighbors. Maybe they were being too loud.
I'm not entirely too sure. The neighbors recognized her from
the missing the missing person's posters and recalled her family
actively distributed them, you know, during the summer, so she

(11:33):
went to missing in April. The family's panicking, they're handing
out posters. She comes home at some point in September
and has a shouting match and then disappears again.

Speaker 5 (11:43):
Wow, right, this case, I mean, as it goes on
and more people give their perspectives, it just gets more complicated.
You're listening to true crime tonight, we want to hear
from you. We're talking about the latest in sless Reebus's death.
She's the fourteen year old. She was found in September
in the trunk of singer David's car. Was there any

(12:03):
other information that the neighbors.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
Gave, you know, they just said the video. Well, they
released the video, and so you can go and watch
the video yourself if you'd like. But the video captures
Celeste shouting accusations and using like swear words. Who doesn't Okay,
I'm not judging her, possibly including a racial slurn not
one hundred percent sure during this confrontation, but I kind

(12:26):
of wanted to talk very quickly about Celeste. How what
we learned very quickly about her not being pregnant, correct
learned yesterday. The death certificate has been released. The cause
in the manner are still deferred. We still don't know.
But what they did tell us is that Celeste has
not been pregnant or was not pregnant when she was found,

(12:48):
nor had she been pregnant in the past year. And
that's important, Okay, So really quickly, that tells us a
couple things. It tells us that her body is in
a condition well enough that they were able to do
this hormone test, right, because they test for those hormones
to determine if she had been pregnant, and if her
body is in a good enough state to do that

(13:10):
hormone test. I think toxology is going to be even
more important, right, and I think it's going to be
an accurate result, right because her body isn't in the
state in which tests can't be done.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
But even those tacts and totally you have explained that
all so well, you just really laid that cass out
so well.

Speaker 3 (13:30):
Okay, good. Sometimes I get in my head and I
know if I'm saying things right.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Edge you might see And no, you did such a
great breakdown of it. My only question about the toxicology report.
And I know we've talked about this with Joseph Scott Morgan,
and yes, toxicology reports.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
To take a minute, let's just go there.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Even if they find drugs, or they could find arsenic,
they could find ketamine, they can find a million things.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Right that.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
Maybe it was a death by drugs. How is that
still not a homicide? She was found in a tuck.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
Right, Well, we don't know. Ye, we just don't know yet.
We're not to wait let that play out. But I
also really quickly, I only have them like I'm in
that left. But the cops went to her house eleven
times in one year, yes, three times in one day,
So there was obviously some family tension happening, right, A
lot of it is obviously, And again I just want

(14:20):
to I just want to make sure that I'm saying
this right. We're not judging. Okay, we don't know who
called the cops. We don't know you know why they
you know specifically why they were called. But they were
called eleven times in one year between February twenty twenty
four in April of twenty twenty five, per new police reports,
and three times in one day in March, a month

(14:42):
before she went missing. What Yeah, that there was video
of her actually kind of literally physically running away.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
Did you guys see that I did? That was that day?
That was that day? Mark, listen, stick with us.

Speaker 5 (14:56):
We have more un celest revus and what the singer
David's manager is now saying about the victim.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
Plus, we are laying out.

Speaker 5 (15:03):
Some unbelievable hoaxes that are making headlines right now. We
got a stage kidnapping, we have people stabbing and shooting themselves.

Speaker 3 (15:12):
Keep it here, True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time of Stephanie Leidecker here with
Body Move In and Courtney Armstrong. The studio is out
of its mind right now. Tah was clapping and dancing
so much during the break and we were like, Toma,
We're gonna hear you on air with the clapping.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
Ah, that sounds wonderful.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
That was so We hope everybody listening during the breaks
has a little wiggle has a little dance in them,
just to shake off any nervous energy from the day.
The news is so intense. The topics that we're unpacking
also super intense. So go ahead, give yourself a little clap.
And now I suddenly now it's AHAs missing. So he's

(16:08):
just in his way right out of here.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
Just embarrassment. Yeah, that was awesome. So listen, if you're
just joining us, We're so happy that you're here.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Welcome to the show. Join us eight at eight three
one crime. We're talking about this, you know, real tragic
case with Celeste Reevas. Her body was found in a
vehicle in the Hollywood Hills, a tesla, and that tesla
belonged to David the pop star, who at the time
of her body being discovered was on tour, a world tour,
I might add, and a tour has since been canceled.

(16:39):
He is not a suspect. He has not been named
as a person of interest. It's worth noting there's a
little bit of chatter about maybe Celeste and how old
she was when she left home, originally possibly around eleven
years old, and maybe back and forth until her untimely
hideous death at age fifteen, So there's a lot to
unpack here.

Speaker 3 (17:00):
Let's go to a talkback right now.

Speaker 6 (17:01):
Hey, True Graham Tonight's team. I don't know if you
guys saw that article today about police swarming David's parents'
house in Texas, but it almost reminds me of the
Coburger case, whose parents were also put under the spotlight,
even though families you know, aren't suspects, but the media
makes it look that way. Do you guys think it's

(17:23):
fair for the media to be involving families like this
or should they stick to only the suspects?

Speaker 3 (17:27):
In fact? I mean I think great talk back.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Also, by the way, there's breaking news right now in
the Brian Coburger case and some new developments or at
least a ruling by the judge, and we'll get to
that later in the show as well. We'll be monitoring it.
I don't know, what do you think, Courtney, what do
you think?

Speaker 5 (17:46):
Well, there has been a really upsetting swatting incident that
did occur with the parents, and I watched the video.
I believe you guys did so dangerous. So police bodycam
footage was just released and you can see officers they
are literally swarming David's family childhood home in Texas, and

(18:08):
it was they were responding to a false report of gunfire.
Somebody called nine one one. They said there were gunshots,
they said there was screaming. They said there's a potential
death at the home in Hempstead, Texas. And you see
David's parents they come out in really the clothes you

(18:28):
wear in your house. We all were in your house clothes.
They were so confused, and the officers are there saying,
is there you know there's a murder here, Like, what
in the world are you talking about? And they said,
you know, please, we have two children upstairs. David indeed
does have a brother and a sister. And you see

(18:50):
just David's father saying someone's messing with us. His mother
is very concerned that someone may be on their property.
Because I don't know if you noticed this in the video,
but what I understood was when the person called nine
one one, even though it was from an out of
state area code, that it pinged to that property.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
Oh really, yeah, that's I didn't at its core the
swatting thing, right, It was a it can be called
in from anywhere.

Speaker 5 (19:19):
Right, But I feel like you have to but that
at GPS located when they called nine one one to that.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
Place, I'll have to look at that. I don't I
don't know. That's interesting. I didn't hear that.

Speaker 5 (19:31):
Yeah, no, well we should definitely look further into that
to see sure. But this person it was it was
just a swatting hoax, not just I mean it takes
away police resources from anything substantive that is going on.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
I mean, this is so expensive to rally all those
cops and equipment and listen when somebody's getting swatted. This
is so dangerous. You guys, please do not do this
kind of thing. You could get somebody literally killed, or
yourself for that matter. Yeah, I mean very serious, Please
don't do this stuff.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
And like I said, David's family has not been through enough.
I mean, listen, this guy is not a suspect. This
is an unfortunate set of circumstances. I'm going to choose
to believe that he is innocent until proven guilty. Certainly
his parents and his siblings had nothing to do with this.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
So there they are.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
They're in this this storm of hell because all of
these accusations are being thrown around left and right about
their son, their son, who was on the verge of
making a very big deal of himself as well. So
here they are, you're already on edge. I'm sure they're
getting hit up by journalists and reporters, et cetera. They're
just trying to look out for their son or their brother,

(20:45):
and then a swat team shows up and there's like
another murder. Like you can't handle that much. Your body
can't even handle that much. I really feel for them,
and we should just explain what swatting is. Swatting is
like what used to be a ring and run or
you know, you prank dial people by the way, even
ringing and running, which I did all the time, I

(21:06):
was always left there by my brothers ding dong ditch.
My brothers were ding dong and then I'd be left there.
In today's day, that is very dangerous. People get shot,
and that happened actually very recently.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
It's actually happened.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, So imagine the swatting is like a now a
much more advanced version of that where nine to one
one is being called because there's some sort of a
shootout or a murder or someone's on the property and
they deploy all of their resources to that house.

Speaker 3 (21:32):
Guns drawn to save the day, thank goodness. And it's fake.
It's a hoax. You know what dangerous that is.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
What if they're just like shooting at the person who's
like walking nearby, you know, delivering the mail, and they're like, oh,
that must be the suspect right on this fake you know,
swatting call. I feel for the parents. It's got to
be a real storm therein.

Speaker 5 (21:53):
Absolutely And yeah, they're just you know, hearing them speak
and seeing mom look around and wondering, is indeed someone
on the property really a heartbreak? In other news, as
you said, Stephanie, David is not a suspect, and indeed
this is not right now deemed a homicide case. However,
David has obtained counsel, and the council's pretty interesting.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yes, yeah, okay, okay, Blair Burke.

Speaker 5 (22:21):
So they're nationally recognized their criminal defense attorney. And really,
when we were talking off the air, Stephanie, you had said,
really kind of crisis management.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
She specializes.

Speaker 5 (22:32):
We have really high profile clients, criminal regulatory, complex, media scrutiny,
which certainly falls under and her roster includes people like
Leonardo DiCaprio, like Mel Gibson, Dave Chappelle, Cameron Diaz, Kanye West,
Lindsay Lohan, and Britney Spears.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
So that's the council, you know, if that's interesting. And
I think it's interesting for maybe not vious reasons. And
I'm obviously you know, listen, she doesn't really do murder cases, right,
she does, I mean she has in the past, but
that's not really her forte. Her forte is obviously she's
a criminal defense attorney, but her forte is crisis management.

Speaker 7 (23:16):
Right.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
And don't you guys think that if David was feeling
like he was a prime suspect in this in this case,
in this this homicidal case, that he would have gotten
a lawyer that specializes in homicide prosecutor.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
Or Mark Garrigos or somebody who whoever was you know,
the defense attorney looking back on some of the most
infamous murder cases ever a time where they do in
fact get off, you know.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
In Los Angeles County, I mean, like some of the
best lawyers we've seen ever. Right, and he hires her, Right.
I just think it's very interesting the choice here.

Speaker 5 (23:56):
I think you're right, and you make a really good point,
a very very good point. But she also might be
even the preliminary attorney. There is no again, not even charges,
much less a much less a court case. But Blair
Birk she's often brought in really early in the stages
of legal trouble. She uses she has a lot of influence,

(24:19):
she has a lot of expertise, and she's known for
really resolving matters quietly or pre empting criminal charges altogether.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
So that's what she's known for. She does this behind
the scenes. She very rarely makes public statements, but is
aggressive and discreet. So at this point, what you're saying
is it could be it could be just the first
lawyer he correct, right, like the first Yeah, you might
be right, I know, just just jumping in too.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Sorry to cut you off, bodyguhead please go, I was
just going to say no, like or they have to
handle it behind the scenes, you know. Maybe they're aware
that there are charges coming potentially, and she is she's
the woman and she's the person who puts up all
of these deals without anybody knowing. So if charges are
to come, maybe that's something that they're trying to squash

(25:08):
or handle differently, or get a plea arrangement before it
gets too much hotter.

Speaker 3 (25:12):
That's what I think. I'd like to know what you
guys think. Do you guys think out there that this
tells us something about the investigation? Give us a call.
Eighty eight thirty one crime. This is true crime tonight.
We're right in the middle of talking about the David
and Celeste b Reavis Hernandez case. I'm body moving and
I'm here with Courtney and Stephanie. I just feel I
feel it tells us a little something. I feel it

(25:33):
tells us that he knows he didn't do anything. Listen,
I'm just talking. I'm spitballing here. He knows he didn't
do anything. And at that age, you know, he's a
young guy. They can't throw me in jail for anything
I didn't do. You know, you're naive to the world,
right And he's not feeling the pressure from LAPD. That
doesn't mean they're not looking at him. It just means

(25:55):
they're not facing they're not like, you know, outwardly telling him, hey, listen,
and you're a suspect, no, no, whatever, because didn't he
go back to Texas already? Like, listen, this is a
real You can't read the state when you're a suspect
in our merger case, Like, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah,
I don't think he's I just feel it tells us something,
maybe not, And maybe I'm being like crazy, but I

(26:17):
just feel it tells us something, maybe nothing. I don't know.

Speaker 5 (26:21):
Yeah, I mean again, her reputation is too often she
prevents charges. And she's done this with sexual misconduct allegations,
domestic abuse, duy, which is different than a fourteen year
old girl of course found in a car registered to.

Speaker 8 (26:37):
You, but now sexual misconduct, well exactly. And she's a
little girl. And Blair does negotiations. She negotiates with prosecutors
behind the scenes, and is really key at identifying procedural
issues really early in investigation. So then I think this
is a really smart choice based on her expert.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
What would you guys be doing, Like, it's just a
double edged sword.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
If you get a lawyer, suddenly you look guilty, and
if you don't have a lawyer, you suddenly say something
wrong procedurally and you're locked up and it's being held
against you. Rule number one in fight club is saying
nothing about fight club, right, So.

Speaker 3 (27:17):
That would be me. I would get a lawyer immediately,
and even if I'm innocent. I'm getting immediately. I have
seen way too many interrogation videos like I have seen
way too many where they twist your words and make
you they hold you there for eight hours and make
you crazy and you start saying crazy stuff just to
get out of that room. Right. No, I'm getting a
lawyer immediately. I'm not saying a word and they're gonna

(27:40):
let me go immediately. I'm not talking to them.

Speaker 9 (27:42):
Yeah, yeah, I'm with you on that body And actually
are you After Amandon Knox was on our show, I'm like,
all right, always lawyer, I always have someone with you
because you don't know what you're thinking of what to say.
But I just want to go back to the whole
David thing. But whether or not he was involved with,
you know, the murder or the death of Celeste, I
still would like to know what the nature of their

(28:05):
relationship was, because that's another issue that I have a
problem with as well. So we might figure out one thing,
but I want to know why was this man with
this fourteen year.

Speaker 3 (28:14):
Old Well, Courtney just read the expertise of this lawyer
and the first thing listed sexual misconduct, and it's playing
Devil's here.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
I don't know, just to throw another opinion in there,
not necessarily even mine. I don't know what mine is,
so I'm not being cagey. But on the other side
of that, what if this young beautiful girl is a
runaway from home and is, you know, not fitting into
the home life whatever it is. You know, we've all
had teen angst, and you know this is just to
the omth degree. She bounces she wants to be with

(28:50):
David because she feels safe there, and he feels bad.
He doesn't want to send her back, and she's either
telling him that she's older than she is or he's
aware of her age but being protective of her because
he doesn't want to send her back to the said
situation that she's obviously running from, and maybe he was
looking after her kind of like a little pop star
babysitter up sorts.

Speaker 3 (29:12):
I don't know, how does that land. It seems a
little unlikely, soft landing.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
It was a soft launch, soft lunch, Yes, soft launch
on a theory, it.

Speaker 5 (29:21):
Was in every literally everything is possible right now because
the facts aren't released, so that's true.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
I find it very unusual that there is not somebody
on the hook right now.

Speaker 3 (29:34):
Twenty two to twenty three days later. I mean, I
really do.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
And if he was a no brainer suspect, I think
we would be seeing him everywhere. And if he's not
talk about a tragedy, his career is now going to
be down the drain. Not to mention the legal fees.
I don't think that Blair Burke is a freebie. I
don't think she's doing this row bono. This is likely
one of the most expensive attorneys period the end, hard stop,

(30:02):
that is it. So you know, financially speaking, you know
he is the target, and I guess we're just going
to have to kind of watch this play out.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
Yeah, well, hopefully we'll get talks back real soon.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
So we've been discussing Epstein a lot, obviously, but once
again there is a block in these Epstein files and
we're going to unpack that now. But also later in
the show there's breaking news and new developments in the
Brian Coburger case.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
I don't even really want to say that.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
It's regarding some of these crime scene photos that have
been released to the public, and also later in the
show some some big poxes that are in the headlines
real time also very important to discuss technically, swatting like
we just were talking about in the last segment, would
fall unto the category of a hoax.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
Right, very dangerous one. Yes, yeah, my gay, Yeah for sure.
So Epstein.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
I mean, this never seems to go away, and I
think it's really important that we're shouting it from the
rooftop a little bit. So you know, if you go
back in time, you'll remember there has been this big
call for the Epstein files to be released, and you know,
where are the files? Where are the files? Where are
the files? Well, the House Committee really was asking for

(31:15):
signatures a total of two hundred and eighteen to be
able to really force the hand of the government to
release all files related to the case.

Speaker 3 (31:25):
And that's been a slow burn.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
And we've heard, oh, we have one hundred, we have
one hundred and ten, we have one hundred and twelve.
Suddenly they're at they're almost at two hundred and eighteen.
There is one, you know, very significant congresswoman who's from
the Arizona seventh District and she was meant to be
sworn in and they are blocking her from being sworn

(31:48):
in allegedly maybe because of maybe the government is now
shut down, maybe this will delay it even further. But
she is allegedly the two hundred and eighteenth signature that
would actually have these files released at Alita Griholda. I
think I'm saying that right at Alita Goriholva. Forgive me
if I'm not. And now it's just getting delayed yet again.

(32:09):
So imagine there's two hundred and eighteen signatures, not just
of Democrats, not just of Republicans. This is a mixed
back yeah, that are simply saying, hey, no judgment, we
just want to see the files. Everybody has said, we
just want to see them, We just want to see them. Promises, promises, promises,
And everybody who has said we're going to see them

(32:32):
has like since changed their vote, which I think has
made it.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
Even scarier in our way.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
You know, well no meaning like Pam Bondi, people that
were oh or even you know, this was a big conversation,
even with you know, Cash Patal Like everybody was like, oh,
we're going to share it tomorrow, We're going to share
it very soon, and no sharing has happened.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
So Epstein's.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Epstein's estate has now released many files, some of them
have you know, fly logs, and there's some new information
regarding that with some very high profile names, including Bill Gates,
and we'll get to that as well, But that's not
the new information. We want to know what the royal
nig names are, Like, what is the scary stuff that

(33:13):
is in these files that is causing there to be
so much of a cover up. And I have a
hard time believing that it's not just that it's not
just a cover up. In fact, we have a talkback
right now, he king.

Speaker 10 (33:24):
This is davy Ra in Tampa, not from Tampa. I've
seen the last night's episode and you're talking about Bill
Gates being tied to Epstein. And if I recall that divorce,
the Gates divorced, there was reasons mo in the left
was due to connections to the Epstein but I can't

(33:46):
find those sources. Can you look into that?

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Oh yes, it's funny.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
You should mention that everyone heads, Yeah, she's in our head,
just to kind of set the stage on the Bill
Gates of it all.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
And she's correct.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
This has been reported about wildly including what is this,
The Wall Street Sure, Wall.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
Street Journal, The Garbean.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Correct so, and Melinda Gates, bill Gates's ex wife of
many many years. I might add She has said this
very loud and very publicly, that the reason for their
divorce was that she was uncomfortable with the relationship between
Bill Gates and Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
So this is the broad strokes of it.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
Bill Gates met Jeffrey Epstein, you know, many many times
between twenty eleven and twenty and seventeen. Now, remember, despite
the fact that Epstein's status as a convicted criminal and
pedophile happened in around two thousand and seven, two thousand
and eight, so even past his guilt and conviction the

(34:43):
first time back in Florida, that relationship continued. He has
since come out Bill Gates saying it was very foolish
and he regretted it. And the idea in his mind
is that he was hoping that Epstein would help Gates
in some full philanthropic work, some very important, very expensive,

(35:03):
multi billion dollar charitable time with JP Morgan Chase. Now
again this is the JP Morgan Chase part that's also
been brought into the conversation, which is scary stuff. Think
about this multi billion dollar So now let's talk, honey pot,
I have a new theory on this work with me here.

(35:23):
I'm just going to workshop at here real time, and honest,
this is what I talk about during the day. So
in my head, let's just assume that all the players
that are being mentioned, because it's basically every big brain
in the world, right, so so many we heard now
Elon Musk is being brought into this Bill Gates, we heard,
you know, former presidents, current all the people. Is it
possible that Epstein, who was maybe working as a double

(35:46):
edged spy or something like we see in the movies,
was having these young girls, many of whom were of
course underage, many were not, doesn't make a difference. They
were stale being trafficked, has them on the island, and
then on his little precious island, he has like an
invite out to the biggest brains in the world. Hey,
we're gonna have a little smart person's retreat. We're going

(36:07):
to learn more about AI, We're gonna have a big
smart person conversation about the world. We're going to create
you know, new big ideas together. I'm gonna have these
little forums on my little island, and I'm going to
bring some of these most notable names to it under
the guise of it being like a think tank. So
maybe the men are going there with the intention of

(36:30):
learning something, meeting other very powerful, influential people, having big talks,
big thoughts, and when they arrive there, oh, there just
happens to be a bunch of girls around, and you
know some of them are fourteen, but maybe some of
them are fourteen, but they're saying they're nineteen. Or maybe
these you know, big time billionaires or big thinkers aren't
checking IDs.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
And now Epstein who's.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Looking to get one over on everybody and maybe have
blackmail at his hands. There's cameras everywhere. He's putting very
important people and compromising positions. There's videotape of it or photographs,
et cetera. And when it comes time to like perhaps
pass some key legislation, there he is and saying, huh,

(37:13):
remember that time you came to the island, And maybe
there's cocktails involved.

Speaker 3 (37:16):
I don't know. This is a total guess, but this
resonates with me a little bit. Yeah, I'm like mind
blown right now.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
And I don't literally in my harder parts, and I
am not the judge and jury here, thank goodness, but
in my gut and I think about this way more
than I should. I don't think all of these big
men and brains were going there with the idea of like,
hey guys, let's all meet on the island and traffic
some women.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
I'd like to believe that's impossible.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
Or Hey guys, let's all leave our wives at home
and go to the island and get creepy massages and
have sex with minors. I like to believe that's not
the case. I don't think that was the invitation. Is
it possible that maybe non lecherous men who maybe have
leicherous you know, potential, are led to the island under
the status of an intellectual talk or a retreat, a

(38:06):
retreat exactly, and then next thing you know, you're sucked in.
Next thing you know, you wake up and you're like, oh,
that was a weird night, and yeah, it sure was
about that Bill we were discussing. Here's a photo. How
do you feel about getting that through? I'm sure it'll
go through just fine, Thanks for coming. And so it goes,
and now you can't get out of it, like there
has to be blackmail at the core of yes, because well.

Speaker 3 (38:28):
We've talked about this before, like Compromont, right, like exactly,
even even like another country that's like I'm not saying
that could be, but it could be somebody who's agenda
what they want pushed through our you know, government agencies
and whatnot right.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Exactly, Or it could be multiple countries or multiple big
players that are saying, hey, Jeffrey Epstein, for some reason,
you're the guy with all the cash in your pocket.

Speaker 3 (38:51):
We have no idea what your sourcing is.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
And how you have all this money when you have
such a shoddy history. You're not a big dog. You
were a little dog. Now you are a very rich one.
So hey, can we have you get us some secrets
on so and so for such and such reason. Maybe
that's happening from many sources. And why does Bill Gates
need financing? He's like one of the most richest men

(39:14):
in the planet.

Speaker 5 (39:16):
Well he according from his own words, he did say
that he believed Epstein could help raise funds.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
For he does many charities, Bill Gates for Global.

Speaker 5 (39:26):
Health and using Epstein's contact, because not only does Gates
give a lot of his own but he also does
drama up money. But he said that was why he
connected with him. Those efforts never materialized, and Gates has
since stead said it was a huge mistake.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
It was foolish. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (39:47):
And allegedly Epstein reportedly tried to involve Gates in a
multi billion dollar charitable fund with JP Morgan Chase, as
you mentioned before, Stephanie, and that deal never came to fruition,
as did men of Epstein's.

Speaker 3 (40:00):
Things seem to fall through. But listen, this is true
crime tonight.

Speaker 5 (40:04):
We're talking about Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Gates and all
of the messiness and how the GOP leaders are refusing
to swear in someone who could put the last signature
on and get the files released and that's being halted.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
What do you think of all this eighty eight three
one crime?

Speaker 2 (40:22):
And to that end, now that the government is in
the middle of a shutdown, this could progress, or this
swearing in could progress for a week, two weeks, it
could be a much longer, which is not the norm.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
I might add it usually happens within a day or two.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
So this is it seems it seems this is the
chatter that this is an alleged attempt to, you know,
make that signature not happen.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
So they're going to have this time to probably work
at her and be like, are you sure you want
to sign this? You know, you're a junior congresswoman now right,
are you sure this is how you want to enter
you know, your seat? Exactly? Imagine and think about it.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
I'm not suggesting that everybody that went to this island
too didn't have nefarious potential, or you know, maybe there
were some repeat offenders who were like, oh, I guess
I'm too deep in at this point, I might as
well go back again and again and again, because there
is a fly list that would suggest that.

Speaker 3 (41:14):
However, I do, in my heart.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Like to believe that maybe the idea of Jeffrey Epstein
was that he was set out to lure people to
that island under the guise of intellectual thought, and yet
the real goal was to compromise them.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
It could be simple, too, like just around a golf right,
like it doesn't have to be like this big thing
tank even right like of course, to the island to
play my world class you know basketball court. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
And listen, Gayleen Maxwell, we know she's the perfect wingman.
You know, she's like also legitimizing this the you know,
his you know co court if you will, well, yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
It was exactly. You took the words out of my mouth.

Speaker 5 (41:57):
Body earlier when you said why would Bill need any
cash from Epstein, and again it's because they're contacts, which
really came from Gilaine Maxwell. I mean, this is royals.
This is not that those royals seem to have a
lot of cash for you can't even pay your own assistant.

Speaker 3 (42:15):
But it's it looks good on paper that he has
all of these connections. Hard to be royal.

Speaker 7 (42:20):
That seems like no walk in the bar. I think
I think I would be just fine. I really do
think it would be just fine. But so, yeah, it's
a body. It's a really it's a web body boo.
But it's a tangled web. I think it is about
to heat up. Remember right behind these signatures are the

(42:43):
victims who have all banned together now to say that
if these files are.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
Not released, we're going to release our own list. And
here we go.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
So it's like two sets of potential grooming. I'm just
throwing this out there. I don't know this to be
fa I love it. On the one side, young women
who were you know, maybe targeted because they're a little
on the wayward side or they're a little lost in
the sauce and they get sort of targeted to come.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
From totally high school.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
You know, all the things could have been any of us, vulnerable, vulnerable.
Suddenly they're like, yeah, come be a messuse this is
gonna be great stuff. You're going to get two hundred
bucks a pop as a you know someone who is
a former waitress.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
Two hundred bucks. There's a lot of money in those
days when you're young. My god, it's a lot of money.
Now it seems I would have done for two hundred
dollars exactly.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
And you're thinking someone saying, oh, you're so pretty, come
and you're going to give a massage, and Gilaine Maxwell
is there making it all feel like less.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
Creepy, okay and safe.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Meanwhile, we know how that story ends because we know
what the victims are saying anything. But and then maybe
there's this other grooming process where Gilaine Maxwell, who comes
from a very big father who was very well connected,
although defamed back in the UK, she has all these connections.
So does Jeffrey ev Scenes, you know, basically living in

(43:58):
New York, living in West pomp Each, living in these
very high falutin places.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
He too has a pretty good roster of people.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
And now we're grooming these influential men to come there
for whatever, you know, golf trip or think tank, whatever
it is, maybe unknowingly knowing that they're stepping into.

Speaker 3 (44:18):
A total fixed job. Yeah, soft launch, what do we think.
I'm listen, I'm on board. I am on this train
with you stuff a million percent. My mind is kind
of like a yeah. And if this train is accurate,
it's going to heat up in the next couple of weeks.
They can't.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
You know, the government's going to open at some point.
This might go on for maybe it ends on Friday,
maybe it goes two weeks. But it's not a forever thing,
right God willing. So if there is an attempt to
hold these files, I say.

Speaker 5 (44:52):
Buckle up well and with the Adelidea Grihalva. It is
very curious that and I know we are in a
government shutdown on however, we were not when she was
first elected in September twenty third and the past one
two three. I'm looking at a list four newly elected
representatives who won elections sam as she did.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
We're all sworn in one day later, so we're now
eight days later.

Speaker 5 (45:18):
Something to think about. Listen, keep it here, top of
the hour. We're getting into wild hoaxes. We've got the
phony kidnappings, you have people stabbing and shooting themselves just
to keep up an.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
Act part act. And of course we have that breaking
news in the Idaho student murder case true crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
There's a lot of hoaxes in the headlines right now,
too many, too many. Body, go ahead, tell us everything.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
You guys heard about this park ranger in Colorado, because
I have been kind of digging into this today. So
this happened in August of this year. Okay, mid August,
August nineteenth to be specific. All right, twenty six year
old seasonal ranger Hellum Heskett. He's accused of staging this
super dramatic stabbing hoax at the state park he worked at,

(46:14):
called Stoughton State Park. He claimed he was ambushed by
a stranger and the stranger was like eliciting all these
like anti police like rhetorics while stabbing him. WHOA yes, Okay,
And this this sparked a man hunt, like a literal

(46:36):
man hunt. Did they shut down the parks? They did,
an evacuation. Communities were locked down surrounding this park. But
investigators say the story quickly unraveled and it exposed this
super stage scene and a trail of disturbing digital evidence.
So again, this happened on August nineteenth. He radioed for help. Okay,

(46:57):
he's this park ranger. He radioed for help. He aimed
a man in a gray shirt and jeans stabbed him
on the Old Mill trail while yelling anti police slurs.
Now you have to know that he's a former cop.
Okay now, but he failed out of the cops. He
got like terminated because obvious issues. Okay, I wonder what

(47:20):
he's yeah, exactly. So his call set off this emergency response,
and we were just talking about swatting. Like imagine that
time's thirty, right, Like, imagine that time shutting down a park,
people being terrified, locked in their houses and surrounding communities, right, So, yeah,

(47:41):
it's nuts. Multiple agencies, including swat right, drones, aviation units
scoured the area. I mean, they're looking for this guy
that stabbed this park ranger, you know on so bodycam
footage showed him holding his cell phone and texting and
filming because he was filming too, while a knife was

(48:04):
still lodged in his abdomen. He was taking pictures of
it and filming it, and you know, he later said
that it was to document the scene and this helicopter
ride that he was on he showed his parents. Yeah,
it was all. It was all staged. Investigators noted dirt
only on the knees of his uniform, not on his back. Right,

(48:25):
he wasn't had nothing on his back. These investigators are brilliant.
I gotta give credit where credit is due, because he
indicated there was this violent like ground struggle. Well, your
back isn't dirty at all, only your knees are, right,
So they noted that, and he gave inconsistent statements to detective,
changing a lot of details about whether he pepper sprayed

(48:48):
the suspect. So they were onto him. Then they get
a hold of his phone, right, and he's doing all
the searches, all these searching like how how can you
stab yourself in the stomach and avoid arteries? I'm paraphrasing,
but these are the things that he was doing. So yeah,
I mean he he also searched one million dollars for

(49:11):
each time you'd get stabbed. So I think he thought
maybe he would get some kind of like settlements or
you know whatnot from from stabbing himself. Authorities found zero
evidence of an attacker, and later described the entire thing
is an elaborate hopes. He was arrested two days later
while he was still in the hospital because he got

(49:32):
airlifted to the hospital and had to get surgery on
his stomach. What a waste of resources.

Speaker 5 (49:38):
Yeah, I hope this guy is on the hook for
every single penny times two. That should just be for
people flying the helicopter. Listen, it's a day and there's
a helicopter accident, and then there's four deaths because of
your pokes.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Or there's an emergency or a crime at your home
and there's nobody to come help because everybody's at the
park solving this guy's pretend crime.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
Or you're walking your dog at the park with your
earbuds on and you're wearing a gray sweatshirt and suddenly
you're surrounded by a swat team who thinks you just
stab somebody, and you're like resisting because you're like, I
didn't do anything. You get shot and killed, like exactly right.
You just never know what could happen. And this kind
of gives me heated a little bit.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
I hate these hots coffee.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
I'm like, I don't do this, so he was still
in the hospital and they arrested him, and they charged
him with multiple multiple offences including false reporting, tampering with evidence,
reckless endangerment. Again, that reckless endangement is huge and attempting
to influence a public servant. He has not yet entered
to plea. His next Court of Parents is scheduled for

(50:47):
a disposition hearing Wednesday. It's coming up next wow. While
investigators continue reviewing evidence and his possible motive. I think
his possible motive is that he's a nut job. Right.

Speaker 5 (51:00):
Well, the one million dollars per stabbing, I wonder, and
this is conjecture, but I wonder if that wasn't for
sort of workmen's comp since he was a ranger could
be hard, right, So.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
You can't get comp if you've stabbed yourself to well,
he he was gonna basically say that he was stabbed
while on duty though by a stranger in a Grace
and a Grace sweatshirt. That was of course, you know,
Antifa or something that hated that hated cops. I don't know,
right that was what he was doing because, like I said,

(51:32):
he was a former police officer in Lafayette, Colorado, and
he only worked there from October to July of twenty
twenty four, and he resigned because he was on the
chopping block. According to records, he did not pass portions
of the field training program and was deemed not to
have demonstrated the quote unquote sufficient proficiency in critical areas

(51:54):
needed to be a police officer. So he's he's like,
he's a former cop, but he never passed the right
He was like probationary. So his whole spiel is that
my attacker hates cops and I'm a cop.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Unbelievable, and he's never going to be the hero somehow.
By the way, your hair looks pretty right now.

Speaker 3 (52:13):
Does it? Oh my god? Slight tangent, but it looks
thank you. I just got to cut little really nice.
Oh well, look at me? Okay, Well now I'm blushing.
Oh my god, what if I I know, it's just
like I I have a side pony in right now?
Still you bear with you know, look at right? So

(52:34):
I'm all a plumped. Okay. So the Colorado Peace Officer
Standards in Training database in twenty twenty five still shows
him as certified, although it's unclear whether that status is
contested or tied to this case at all. We just
don't know. Hopefully we'll learn more about it. This is
true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We are like in the
middle of talking about hoaxes. Are you a victim of

(52:55):
a hoax?

Speaker 5 (52:56):
Like?

Speaker 3 (52:56):
I want to hear your hoax stories? Give it's called
eighty eight thirty one crime. Courtney, you have one too,
what's your story? Okay, We're going down to Florida, ladies.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
I love the bathing suit yet bathing suit in the sunscreen.

Speaker 5 (53:10):
So in Florida, a seventeen year old. It was a
guy named Hayden Spiite. This guy triggered an Amber alert
after he claimed he had been shot and abducted, and
authorities are now saying it was a hoax. I mean,
Amber alerts are such huge h law enforcement engagement procedural activities.

(53:34):
So Sheriff Billy Woods revealed that Spite fled with camping gear.
He did shoot himself in the leg just to ice
put the icing on the story, and was later found
really safe. This investigation began just a little bit of
go September twenty fifth, after a really urgent message from
the seventeen year old prompted this amber alert authority said

(53:57):
he was texting his family claiming, I'm sure I'm stolen,
I'm abducted, and.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
I'm like what really?

Speaker 2 (54:05):
Yeah, I get in red flag, red flag, red red flag,
red flag.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
Okay, sorry, so spite was last scene.

Speaker 5 (54:13):
The ambulert said that he was last seen that afternoon
septime twenty fifth, in a T shirt, some jeans, and
that they might have been with four men in a
light colored van. This was information authority later authorities later
determined was unfounded. So he was really laying it on
this call to his parents. It was a huge search,

(54:33):
large scale. There was aviation, there were detectives, there were
mounted units, there were field force units, and they worked
all through the night to find this guy. Well, they
went to the site where the seventeen year old's abandoned
truck was and right there they found evidence of a
single gunshot. Later detectives then found receipts showing that this

(54:57):
guy had bought himself a bicycle, a tent, and some
camping applies at Walmart before he disappeared. I mean please,
And he was woultimately found totally safe, about twenty miles
from his car after apparently riding away on his bicycle.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
What, yeah, was he just what was he trying to do? Like,
what was his motive? Well, it is absolutely unclear because
and I kept emphasizing that he was seventeen, because his
parents have refused to allow him to speak with detectives.

Speaker 5 (55:34):
So there's no motive.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
There's no motive released.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
He has an apparents don't have a choice, though you
can saying lawyer up and immediately then you say nothing.

Speaker 3 (55:50):
I do not have to say anything. I would say
the same thing if I was the parent to charge
you the same thing. Right, Well, it's listen.

Speaker 5 (55:59):
One of the spirits said there were an alarming amount
of red flags. I think that's being tasteful about it,
and there would be investigation, and that there were also
witnesses who contradicted this teen's story. Finally, quote, there is
zero chance that Cayden's gunshot wound came from any type
of assailant.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Wow, they're they're pretty sad, they know, Yeah, but it's
not firm.

Speaker 5 (56:25):
The sheriff didn't rule in or rule out whether spite
would face charges. So investigators are reviewing evidence, and he
is locked up because his parents wouldn't let him speak.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
So I can't wait to see how this story unfolds.
And to your question, anyone was rush them out? Maybe
a bunch of attention. I hope that's the only reason
that maybe he just wanted to, you know, think about it,
friendtal Lobes. In the young boys, they are not fully
developed for a very long time, and I think the
key ingredient there is consequences. You know, this all sounds

(56:59):
like a a like a good idea and like your
dummy head and you know, next thing, you know, like
this is really really really big, very very tragic. Could
have been even more dangerous than it was.

Speaker 3 (57:11):
And I don't know that he's got way back to too.
I remember one time. This is not the same. But
I was out way past curfew, Okay, I was like
seventeen maybe, and I was with my best friend Maya Hi,
Maya Hi. So we were you know, being bad girls, right,

(57:32):
and we were trying to figure out ways from meeting
in my house because my mom was like I did
see the lights on. I knew she was scary, what's
gonna happen? And I remember thinking, well, maybe if I
break my leg. So me and Maya literally took like
sand bags and started like hitting my legs. I literally, yes, Well.

Speaker 7 (57:58):
I guess I kind of wonder it's like this zandbag
or a gun.

Speaker 3 (58:04):
I think that is the rationianale. It's not the same thing. No,
but you can see where it can go sideways.

Speaker 5 (58:14):
Yeah, your mind anything better than mom's consequences.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
And I'm a smart adult, dumb kid. Okay, who was it?
Oh my, the story the tales I can tell.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
We all can, right, So that is we're not dismissing
this or minimizing this. No, but you talk about mindset
consequences like this is a mess, and he's going to
have legal bills and there's going to be retribution to
be paid at the bare minimum. Obviously he's injured, like
this is dopey, Like who knows if the long term
effects of that is?

Speaker 3 (58:47):
Oh I know, and like let alone, we're all talking
about it.

Speaker 2 (58:50):
So it's like now national news, it's a real stink fest.

Speaker 9 (58:55):
He's seventeen, so maybe you know to your point like
not fully developed. But then when there are people like
Sherry Peppina, like.

Speaker 3 (59:02):
Oh man, oh her brain was developed.

Speaker 9 (59:06):
It was developed, And that one is wild to me. Yeah,
you know that story inside it out?

Speaker 3 (59:11):
Well, Sherry Peppini.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
If you guys remember she was a married woman, she
had two children, and you know she was the gone girl.
She was everywhere because her husband comes home one day
and there's no Sherry, his beloved, beautiful wife. They had
a really beautiful thing. They'd been together for many years,
and sure enough Sherry is gone, and there is a
search for Sherry. Let's get her home, and let's get

(59:33):
her home safely. But she turns up, and she turns up.
She's been beaten and bruised, and she's been she's been
like branded, like literally she's had she's been captured, and.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
Her hair was cut off, hair was cut off.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
She was like all beaten up and just like super
intense people that had been throwing like chains on her
and stuff. And she had made a very real accusation
that I don't even want to say again because it
was so deflammat She essentially said it was a certain
type of person a raise specifically to women, and that
she had been abducted in left fur dead and here

(01:00:09):
she was, thank god, Cherry's home and she comes home
to a big, huge welcome, only to find out that
Cherry was actually shacked up with her ex boyfriend and
she had ran away to him and she made the
ex boyfriend beat her up crazy allegedly, allegedly allegedly, so
she had to do a lot of time for this.
This is not she was convicted of this, so we're
not really talking.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
Out of school now.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
She has since come out and it has not caught
traction that really the ex boyfriend had like lured her
out and that that was more tangled. But trust me,
investigators have been knee deep into it and nothing really
has come of that. Imagine you want to get out
of your relationship, so that's the angle.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
Mmmmm.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
Come on Verify on Thanksgiving and yeah, thank you right well,
coming up a celebrity who made national headlines after he
claimed he was attacked and it was later revealed to
be a total hoax. And we have breaking news in
the Cobracker case. Keep it right here a True Crimesnight.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lydecker here with Courtney.
I'm strong body move in Courtney and I have our
weighted vests out.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
We are passing the program.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
Yeah a little late, I was late to the game tonight,
but I'm feeling ready to take it on. We're talking
about a lot of hoaxes. So you guys remember Jesse
Smolette for example, we'll get into that. Also, he was
the one that said he was the victim of a
hate crime in Chicago. You'll remember he was the star
of the show Empire and he has a different tale
to tell of this side of the story.

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
But let's go to we talk oh I tam leader
in Australia.

Speaker 11 (01:01:52):
Just on the Michael Frankie case that was raised in
talkback Tuesday, there is I can be an iHeart podcast
called Murder in Oregon dot Com hovers off on the
case and it goes into a really I guess deep
dive on it. Definitely can recommend. Also, just a quick
question on the piped in massacre. What's going on with
the last trial? I don't really understand why it's been

(01:02:13):
so long and the last trial hasn't happened. Thanks, Well, we.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
Can answer the piked in part. First, the pikedon massacre.
If you haven't heard the podcast, it's on iHeartRadio as well.
You'll recognize Courtney Armstrong's voice and we all have participated
with that. Since day one, I think there's fifty two
episodes and we've done two docs, so there's a lot
to unpack to this case. There is a final trial

(01:02:40):
and it was set to happen many months ago and
then it didn't and then it got postponed. We're going
to do a very large deep dive on this, but
it is not a quickie, right. So the reasons for
why it's been pushed is complicated and layered, and it
is real loss in the sauce in.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
Court stuff, court stuff more.

Speaker 5 (01:03:01):
Yeah, there's a new judge, there were new there have
been overturned things that had been decided. So, as Stephanie said,
it's all trial stuff, pre trial stuff that is ongoing
and we don't there is no date published, but when
it is. We were so excited to cover this trial

(01:03:22):
every single day.

Speaker 3 (01:03:23):
Yeah, who's on Who's getting tried right now?

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Dad? So of the accused, the well not even accused,
like of two, there's there's four of the Wagner family.
It's a family of four mother, father, two brothers who
took the lives of eight extraordinary people in Pie County, Ohio.
Mom took a plead deal, youngest son takes a plead deal.

(01:03:46):
Eldest son. Yep, Jake took a pleate deal. He kind
of cracked this whole thing open. And then the eldest brother, George,
he went to trial and was found guilty. Even though
he probably had the least skin in the game.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
Jake did the most right. Jake did the most.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
Jake actually, you know, murdered the mother of his daughter
while she was breastfeeding, leaving a five day old baby
breastfeeding on a dead human.

Speaker 3 (01:04:15):
Imagined the depravity there.

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
So there's dad is up next, and it is it's
a it's a tail, it's a.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
Tale his baby, right, correct, I'm sorry. At the time,
his daughter was his baby.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
So he had a child, a three year old, and
the parents split up. Had to May rode in sort
of at the center of this and her family had
to May had a child with Jake Wagner. They split up,
and they split time, and their kids are young. They're
very you know she was at the time, was probably
when they had the baby, like seventeen or so, of.

Speaker 3 (01:04:50):
Court, is that right? Seventeen? I think she was sixteen
when she had the baby.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
They were young, so they were kind of splitting time
between his family's house and her family's house. She comes
from an awesome family, really loving, really beloved, really loud
and boisterous and funny, and he comes from a little
very sophisticated family air quotes or air quotes, wealthier family
that were a little cooler. But again, they all loved

(01:05:16):
this baby so much that they everybody jumped in both sides.
Hannah and Jake break up, and Hannah gets with somebody else. Eventually,
as a young girl, would you know, now she's eighteen
years old, she's raising a little girl, gets with the
new guy, and it appears that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:32):
Jake wasn't having it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
And then Angela Wagner, his mother, alongside her two boys
and her husband. The husband still has to have his
trial and probably January February is a pure guest. They
put a plan together, a plot to not only murder Hannahme,
but murder Hannahme's entire family, her her brother, her mother,

(01:05:56):
her father, her brother's beautiful uh fiance seemed to be wife,
their three year old child.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
His three year old child hid under the bed. That's right.
I mean, it's really rough and beautiful holidays since I listened.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
That's why it's a long one, Hannah Gilly. They had
just had a baby. It's really just the uncle of
Hannahme gets more. I mean it goes on eight.

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
People, right, all four locations at the same time, right
like yeah, within minutes of one another kind.

Speaker 5 (01:06:27):
Of thing over the course of one night. Because they
were on it was four separate properties. Three of them
were very close together but still different houses. And then
the fourth house was further down the road. But that's
why at the beginning of the investigation body it was

(01:06:47):
extremely coordinated. The thought was, this has to be a
mob hit. This has to be professional assassins, they thought,
but drugs or something. At first, didn't they like a
cartel hit or cartel It was so sophisticated.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
Ask me who put the plan together? Oh, Angela Wagner, Mom,
I knew it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
So.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
Mom who had this young girl living with her because
she wanted to have, you know, custody of her granddaughter,
thought that would be a better life. She decided to
put a plan together for her sons and allegedly her husband. Again,
husband's trial is still to come, so he claims his
innocence that the best plan would be to dismurder everybody

(01:07:29):
and slaughter them with a capital s like depravity. Talk
about seeing crime scene photos like I don't want to.
There's so much I wish we hadn't seen in court,
but it is a.

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
Ye, went right. You guys went down here multiple difference, Wait,
oddly over years. Yeah, you guys have been on this
since day one. When I met you, you were covering
this heavily. That's right, that's where we were doing the
panel this case.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:57):
Yeah, and we love Pie County, I know, and you
love that love that family. Yes, and you don't know them.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
It was just a case that we all got hyper
connected to. And yeah, you know we have Whitney Galloway
here with us, working with us, and she was also affected.
So yeah, it's one of those cases that you don't
realize the ripples.

Speaker 5 (01:08:19):
They are wide and far. Listen, this is true crime tonight.
I'm Courtney, I'm here with body, I'm here with Stephanie,
and we were just answering a talkback on the Pike
County murders and now we are going to get into
Jesse Smollay and oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
That's right. Do you guys remember this case?

Speaker 7 (01:08:40):
I thought it was details or fail, I say, smole Ay,
But you know that's me.

Speaker 3 (01:08:47):
I don't know if I'm saying all right, but I'm
gonna say like it. Just say so. This happened right
before COVID the lot. You know this was This happened
in January twenty nineteen. I guess it was a year
but before Colvin and he do you guys remember he
claimed he was this victim of this like racist and
homophobic attack and turns out in Chicago, right and turns

(01:09:09):
out no, it was a big hoax. This is going
back to our hoax theme that we have tonight, wicked Wednesdays.
Yeah Wednesdays. Yeah, this we're soft launching, he launched, Well done. Well,
I have to apologize. I feel a little bit hyper.
I think I drink too much coffee.

Speaker 5 (01:09:25):
I just like, so, why you guys are drinking coffee
this time and night.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
I don't know, it's crazy, super late. I have like
my stash and yeah we shouldn't. I guess they shouldn't.
It's very dangerous. Okay, listen, Well, this happened January of
twenty nineteen, he reported. He admit he had been attacked
by two men who were shouting, you know, racist and
homophobic slurs and pouring a chemical on him and putting

(01:09:50):
a rope around his neck. I mean, this is like
highly inflammatory. Right, So when somebody of stature comes out
and says, you know, this guy's famous, right, He's empire
was such a good it was such a good show,
such a good and he was so good on it,
and he was so good. So somebody of stature comes
out and they're like this, these people they threw a

(01:10:11):
chemical imium, tried to hang me like with a noose.
This has like massive inflammatory implications, right, So all of
us who are like, oh, this is how this is horrible, horrible,
like what are where? What world are we living in?

Speaker 10 (01:10:25):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
My god? It was a hoax? Yes? What the heck?
So he told police that assailants yelled quote unquote maga country, right,
linking the alleged assault to Trump supporters and highlighting national
with this just heightened everything right now, yeah, and like
how we're living right now? Do you remember?

Speaker 11 (01:10:46):
I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
Oh so. Detectives later concluded the incident was staged, with
Smoley allegedly pain acquaintances thirty five hundred dollars to carry
it out. He hired these two guys that are like actors.
They totally rehearsed this whole thing and staged it. A
Cook County grand jury indicted Smolet on felony chargers for

(01:11:11):
filing false reports, and those charges were controversially dropped weeks
later in exchange for community service and forfeiting a ten
thousand dollars bond. So it kind of looks like he
just kind of paid his way out of it.

Speaker 9 (01:11:24):
A little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:11:25):
I forgot that part of it.

Speaker 5 (01:11:27):
I remembered all of the big graphic with the rope
and the acquaintances and the pang off.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
But wow, the acquaintances were very interesting too, because remember
they were kind of actors like they were I think
they were.

Speaker 3 (01:11:40):
He used to work out with them. One of them
was his trainer.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
One of them with his trainer, I believe, and then
there was the trainer's brother and Jesse. He would promise
them like, hey, you'll get a part as an extra on.

Speaker 3 (01:11:54):
Empire on my show? Did show? They were extra? Yeah?
They were extra. It worked. So there was a lot
of public backlash, you know, about him getting this bond
release and whatnot, and like you know, So there was
a special prosecutor assigned to this case, and charges were
basically refiled in twenty twenty, in December of trying no

(01:12:17):
good right, because listen, listen, this really kind of nullifies
real issues that are happening in this you know what
I mean.

Speaker 9 (01:12:24):
Last such a heated moment. I remember when it first happened, and.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
I was outraged, like all of us.

Speaker 12 (01:12:29):
Of course you.

Speaker 9 (01:12:30):
Believe this happened, like this, what is this country coming to?
And then later when you get that turn and you're like,
wait a minute, this guy made all of this up,
and now it makes like, you know, as someone who's
African American in the gay community, it's like all these
things like that we're fighting for and trying to move forward,
real issues, real issues. He's put this forest together. Now

(01:12:51):
it looks foolish. Now, sometimes something really does happen, people
look with a side eye, like really, did that really
happen to you? It just the whole thing was really
disturbing and upsetting. But sorry, I had to jump in.

Speaker 3 (01:13:03):
Beyore No, I'm so glad you did. I mean, your
your perspective specifically is important, right, because this is why
we're all upset by it because of your perspective, like,
oh my gosh, this is terrible, like God forbid something
happens to our dear Taha right, we love.

Speaker 9 (01:13:17):
Him, thank you?

Speaker 3 (01:13:18):
You know what I mean? Like, oh my god, justice right, yeah,
God forbid, it's not going to happen.

Speaker 9 (01:13:24):
I was like saying, I remank you, oh thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:13:27):
I'll see you've got my back. I love that I
cut your back.

Speaker 9 (01:13:29):
It made it even worse because I would I watched
him when Empire. I was a big fan of the show.

Speaker 3 (01:13:34):
I love that show.

Speaker 9 (01:13:35):
Just lined up that made it even more horrific.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
But so A year later, in December Christmas time December
twenty twenty one, he was convicted on five counts of
disorderly conduct and sentence in March of twenty twenty two,
a whole year and a half later to one hundred
and fifty days in jail plus one hundred and twenty
thousand dollars restitution. He served six days total before being

(01:14:01):
released pending appeal in November of twenty twenty four. I mean,
this is gone for years, you guys. This is in
November of twenty twenty four that Illinois Supreme Court overturned
his convictions, ruling prosecutors violated his due process by refiling
the charges after dismissal, like double jeopardy kind of thing. Well,
that's when you said that.

Speaker 9 (01:14:22):
I know.

Speaker 5 (01:14:22):
I'll be honest, this makes sense because I was going
to I was going to ask you that really didn't
make sense, like, oh, made the wrong charges, let's try again.

Speaker 3 (01:14:32):
That didn't right. No, I get it, I get it,
even though I kind of turned a blind eye to
that because I really wanted him to pay the price.
I'm not gonna lie, I really really, you know, but
I do. I do you know understand? But they they
basically had they settled, Okay, so he got away with it.
He had to pay. The settlement basically was that he
had to donate sixty thousand dollars to a couple nonprofits.

(01:14:54):
So he got it. He got away with it. Now,
imagine you don't have this kind of money. Oh my god.

Speaker 9 (01:14:58):
You know, Yeah, what happens to someone that case? But
so does anyone? Have you seen the documentary like his.

Speaker 3 (01:15:04):
I listen, I refuse to watch anything he's affiliated with
because he's so angered me.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
I've seen it, and he did really claims his innocence.
He claims his innocence. He's still about he seems a
little yeah, I mean he says it was, you know,
it's this is all he's he's been wronged. Frankly, how
does he justify with all of the think about it too?
They're also it came out that in fact, he was

(01:15:31):
up for a negotiation in Empire and went on the
screen of his very long standing series that he was
kind of a breakout star in that he might get cut,
and that this was maybe a way to kind of
create public empathy for him and make it impossible for
the show to Actually, you can't cut him.

Speaker 3 (01:15:51):
He just got a tave just.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
You know, like his name was everywhere, so now his
name is everywhere, and maybe in a very beloved way.

Speaker 3 (01:16:00):
And everyone was feeling sad.

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
For him until they stopped feeling sad for him, and
everybody kind of turned.

Speaker 3 (01:16:06):
But I would I.

Speaker 5 (01:16:07):
Also have no interest body in watching this documentary. I
got so grossed out watching the Sherry Peppini documentary and
sitting her there being like.

Speaker 3 (01:16:16):
We all lie.

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):
Who gets more annoyed, Kendra or Sherry Peppini, Kendra Tendron.

Speaker 3 (01:16:23):
Collar Kendra, Kendra. He keep it here and give us
a call.

Speaker 5 (01:16:29):
Eighty D three crime, Who do you think should Who's
the worst one?

Speaker 3 (01:16:34):
We are going to be hearing from you when we
come back.

Speaker 5 (01:16:36):
And we have an update that just came out in
the Idaho student murders case.

Speaker 3 (01:16:42):
Keep it here.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm staff here with Courtney
and Boddy and of course Taha in the boys in
the control room, Sam and Adam. So this night has
flown by yet again. But Baddy, you have breaking news
in yeah, in Idaho.

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):
Yeah, So we all know that the appearance of Madison
Mogan filed motion to bar the release of crime scene
photos you know that contain you know, Maddie's room and
in any of you know, basically saying like her dignity
and those of her friends and roommates should be intact, right,

(01:17:31):
And the judge has come back and said, yeah, I agree.
So graphic photos from the crime scene where Brian Coberger
killed four Idaho college students will not be released. The
Idaho judge, her name is Megan Marshall, has blocked public
release of particularly graphic crime scene images from this twenty
twenty two murders committed by Brian Coberger, ruling that the

(01:17:54):
emotional harm to the victim's families would outweigh public interest
in seeing those images. The order requests is that any
release photos that have already been released to remove images
of the victims' bodies or surrounding blood. And the reason
that's kind of a thing is that some of the
photos that we got were blurred right, and we couldn't

(01:18:17):
see any of the victims' bodies, but you can make
it out right. And additionally, particularly in Xanna's room, but
also in Maddie's as well, we can see blood spatter
right and it's it's horrific. Well, the police department's going
to have to black all that out now. But unfortunately
the you know, the cats out of the bag, it's
already been released, but any future ones that they would

(01:18:41):
have released are going to permanently be blocked out. We're
not going to see We're not going to see any
of them. I think it's great. I actually think it's great.
And here's why.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
Just because the general public, I know that I have
a sneaking suspicion. You're going to say, but like these
are informative and sometimes it is tells for future investigations.
I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I feel
like that's maybe where you're.

Speaker 3 (01:19:04):
Going to go with this. But and I don't disagree
with that, but that is.

Speaker 2 (01:19:07):
Like you're requesting photographs for a specific thing, and you
understand what information you're getting and it's very very sacred,
and you're prepared to receive it.

Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
I got to say. And we've worked on this case
since day one. Frankly right.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
Three podcasts by the way, please listen to the podcast
now we go into this a little bit too. Idaho
Massacre Season three out now on iHeart and the doc
on Peacock. I was really horrified that the general public
was seeing these photographs with really out real notice. They
were just popping up everywhere. It's the same thing about

(01:19:45):
the Charlie Kirk assassination. There was no warning. We're just
like suddenly, I'm in this little room and it's Maddie
who I don't know, but I feel like I do.
And I think the whole country and world felt so
connected to the victims, so seeing their their blood in
their rooms and it's coming up on your Instagram feed
or being released widely without there being some intention of

(01:20:08):
when you're going to see it, and if you're prepared
to see it a litt alone.

Speaker 3 (01:20:13):
Is it appropriate?

Speaker 2 (01:20:14):
I was kind of grossed out and scared many times,
and I think this is a really good judgment.

Speaker 3 (01:20:21):
I think it's very valid.

Speaker 5 (01:20:22):
I do the judge. I think put it really well,
Judge Marshall. The fact remains, the murder investigation and the
criminal case are closed. She wrote, Releasing these records will
have minor effect on those who continue to be perplexed
by facts or fixated on unfounded conspiracies, whereas it will
continue to have profound effects.

Speaker 3 (01:20:44):
On the deceased loved ones.

Speaker 5 (01:20:46):
And it's not worth it these children, really, let them
rest in peace. I mean the family members. We have
heard them say afraid to open a computer or a
phone because of what will pop out. I mean to
be tortured every day to let someone else who wants
to bolster an unfounded conspiracy, right, It's really not worth it.

Speaker 3 (01:21:09):
I think it's a great judgment. I I'm kind of
in the middle here, and I'm not trying to be
you know, cag But on one hand, I do agree
that you know this is going to keep the victim's
dignities intact, their privacy. You know this is horrific. What
happened to them. You know, it's horrible, but I do
think it sins a dangerous slippery slope. This is now

(01:21:33):
going to be case law, right, this is going to
be sighted in other cases. And you know, when you
do things in the dark, shady things happen, right, And
so for the future. I worry a little bit about
the future because you know how many cases have been
overturned by normal people or well, you know, people that

(01:21:55):
are just lawyers, even that you know, get access to
case information unredacted, right, and are able to prove maybe
that this guy rotting on death row is innocent. And
I worry that. Listen, I don't think. I don't think
hiding the bodies of these poor victims is a bad idea.

(01:22:16):
I just worry about the future. I worry about it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
But wouldn't that preclude I'm saying general public is the
ruling that legal appointees or prosecutors or anyone working on
a case, or even within a trial, or even if
you're investigating a crime. We do this all the time,
and there are foyers, and we have foyers, and we
have to go through the proper channels to get autopsies

(01:22:39):
and have information that is air quotes public. But there's
a channel, and it's it's frankly not easy to get
in some cases because and being intentional.

Speaker 3 (01:22:49):
And you're right, I agree that lawyers representing somebody would
be able to get the unredacted whatnot. But what about
the regular person? What about like somebody like me?

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
Right, I think you would go through the proper channels.
I think it's would.

Speaker 3 (01:23:02):
Would be redacted for me, it would be redacted from me.
I'm a member of the public. I have no interest
in the case, right, But I maybe think maybe you know,
John Doe is innocent of this, and he's reached out
to me because he saw me on a TV show
or something. I don't know. I'm just throwing things fire. Yeah,
I hear what you're saying.

Speaker 5 (01:23:20):
But the first part of what you said, I personally
feel so strongly. You know, it's said, yes, it protects
their dignity, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:23:28):
Full stop.

Speaker 5 (01:23:30):
You know, other if there is such a let's look
into John Doe's case.

Speaker 3 (01:23:36):
Okay, then there's counsel.

Speaker 5 (01:23:37):
And I know money's an issue and everything else, But yeah,
I just I don't. I think it's too it's too
risky that then any photo can be put out by
anyone at any time for people who are dead and
should rest.

Speaker 2 (01:23:52):
And who it's traumatizing. It's also traumatizing to everybody to
just see it kind of randomly on your Instagram feed,
or suddenly he turned on your computer and you're seeing
crime scene photos that you're you know, you're sitting at
your desk starting your day at work, or you're underage, like.

Speaker 3 (01:24:06):
Kids are seeing this stuff. It's very traumatizing.

Speaker 5 (01:24:09):
Or it's your sister or your cousin and you're sitting
there just trying to find a flower shop.

Speaker 3 (01:24:14):
You know, you open your phone and there's their body.
And I remember growing up, you know, my mom used
to read these like true crime books and whatnot, and
in the center of every book there would be like
these black and white pull out posters, and these posters were,
you know, literal crime scene photos of like horrific crime

(01:24:34):
scenes what and but my mom was just prepared for that.
It's not like Instagram where she just exactly was prepared
for that right exactly. She knew that this was going
to be in there. Probably the reason she bought the
book Let's be Real, because my mom was insane like me.
But you know, like she was baby body in the
missing Yeah, but you understand. I mean I definitely want

(01:25:01):
the victims like protected, and you know this. Please don't
get me wrong. I just I do worry. It's a
slippery slope. It starts when it becomes case law.

Speaker 2 (01:25:11):
I mean, that's a fair point. It's hard to disagree
with that, nor do I want to. I see the point.
But your mom was being very intentional. She knew what
she was getting, she knew she was preparing herself to
actually see it. I'm just concerned about the general psyche.
We talked about this with you know, Jessica Kaplan last week,
that we're all kind of being so emotionally inundated with

(01:25:31):
almost just too much by the way we work in
the true crime field. So for me to say that
is saying a lot.

Speaker 11 (01:25:37):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:25:37):
So again, I know when I'm going.

Speaker 2 (01:25:40):
To be prepared to see very difficult things, and I
have to actually prepare myself for it. So to just
see things so loosely aside from the family members or
even in this case, the Coburger family, it's all so brutal.
But I just also think for just all of us,
it's like it's taken a toll in our mental health. Right.

Speaker 3 (01:26:00):
I was thinking about this, like, how would I how
would like I'm dead, right, let's say, right, and I've
been murdered. Would I want my murder photos studied? I would?
I would too, I would, and I would not see
That's what I was just going to say. Everybody's different, right, yea,

(01:26:20):
So maybe we have to I think to err on
the side of caution. I think it's probably smarter to
say that they wouldn't want their stuff studied.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
Yeah, And there's also a difference between wide release and
specific release. Yes, I would want it study, but I
wouldn't want everybody who's ever known me, or everybody in
the world having access to my death photo that's you know,
or just being distributed. It's not even like there's a
request for it. It's not like in a special category.
It's just everywhere, all of a sudden, and that's pretty dehumanizing,

(01:26:51):
I think, and also kind of desensitizes all of us.
And I worry that as we all get desensitized, that's problematic.

Speaker 3 (01:27:00):
And I debate this all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:27:01):
If God forget anything happened to me, I get ready
for the doc.

Speaker 3 (01:27:05):
You guys have better be first in line for your interviews.
It'll be my first verse.

Speaker 13 (01:27:10):
You're going to be like, yeah, you're gonna produce it,
and you guys are gonna just, you know, take your tails.
Yeah exactly, let it rip, and everybody from high school,
you know, like, yeah, I want to scream from the
roof to start the podcast, Let's find the killer, Let's
find justice. Right, But this is a line about le's
about the justice.

Speaker 3 (01:27:29):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
We already know the answer here. Why do we need
to see these scenes again and again and again.

Speaker 3 (01:27:33):
And what can happen?

Speaker 5 (01:27:35):
So in our research and interviews for In Cells, the
podcast we're working on, we spoke to wonderful woman Kim Devns.
She is the mother of Bianca Devns. Just briefly, if
you don't remember the case, Beyonca Devns was a seventeen
year old girl who was murdered by an acquaintance. This

(01:27:57):
acquaintance filmed the incident. He then took pictures of He
took death pictures of her, posted it on discord, four Chan,
et cetera. And this happened six years ago to this day.
Those pictures haunt pictures that are made in two memes

(01:28:17):
wow and haunt the family. So I'm also body, I'm
fired up because we're literally just coming off of that
atrocity and seeing on the day of her murder because
it was released that quick, a fifteen year old friend
of the family found it.

Speaker 3 (01:28:34):
I listen, I get it. I mean, John Lynn, you know, like,
I totally like I'm on board with that. I do
want their dignity intact. And you know, for John Lyin
in his culture, it was so dehumanizing, and he's from China.
This was completely dehumanizing for him and his family. And

(01:28:54):
so I, I mean, I definitely understand this, you know,
I respect it to do. I don't want anybody to
think I want them all released and out there. And
you know the ether, I just worry a little bit.

Speaker 5 (01:29:06):
About the case lots going to say, I hear your point,
because I understand about the case law and that it
can be a slippery slope.

Speaker 3 (01:29:13):
Yeah, for sure, So I hear that maybe I'm wrong
about this, Like, let us know if you have other
legal knowledge about the Hey, body, you are wrong. This
is not going to set case lots only going to
be happening in Idaho or or only in this county.
Let us know. Eighty eight thirty one crime. I'd love
to hear from you. You guys will be so good
in the documentary. Oh stop it, you're not getting murdered.

(01:29:36):
Don't say that I suggesting that. Okay, I thought you
were saying he'll do in the documentary about my mother.
But by the way, you guys would also solve the murder.
So I know that I'm in safe hands, so it
would never happen.

Speaker 9 (01:29:52):
I've said that the body and Joseph Scott Morgan. I'm like,
if anything the faris happens to me, can you oversee
the investigation and have Joseph do the forensics like.

Speaker 2 (01:30:00):
We got your Courtney, and I don't count.

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
Doing my plate chops.

Speaker 9 (01:30:10):
I know what's all this whole team, it'll be solved
within hours.

Speaker 3 (01:30:14):
And offended Courtney. I know.

Speaker 13 (01:30:20):
Yeah, we're just gonna got.

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
From the dog. I would actually love.

Speaker 7 (01:30:32):
No.

Speaker 5 (01:30:34):
I would love to bring someone else into this conversation,
give us a talk back.

Speaker 12 (01:30:41):
I stand from Virginia, just calling. Not really anything pertinent
to a particular story, but I just wanted to say
I've noticed has been a lot more recently and just
wanted to say I love his contribution.

Speaker 3 (01:30:56):
He is like the cherry on top to your perfect tree.
We need shirt Yay, Charlie, he's the Charlie of our angels. Yes,
he vitually Charlie. It's so great.

Speaker 9 (01:31:13):
And I don't know anyone in Virginia, so I did
not pay anyone to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:31:16):
I know.

Speaker 5 (01:31:16):
We knew about this and and made sure that the
guys Adam and Sam would play.

Speaker 3 (01:31:24):
Jar and a Sunday together.

Speaker 9 (01:31:27):
We make the perfect dessert treat because all of us
combined and.

Speaker 5 (01:31:32):
Your smile, it's like a Crest commercial every uh really
every days.

Speaker 9 (01:31:37):
Like we're all like every all these compliments.

Speaker 3 (01:31:39):
I know, all the club. Still, this Wicked Wednesday is
kind of wonderful. Do you guys like that? Do you
guys like that Wicked Wednesday? That Wicked Wednesday fun? I'm
into it. Halloween, Yeah, we're going to get Halloween sound effects.
We're going to do a whole Halloween thing.

Speaker 9 (01:31:57):
So there's a lot coming up with that. So I'm
planning out and I'm planning out for tomorrow too, because
tomorrow Matthew Russell with Inner City Press, he's going to
be joining us to talk about Diddy. He's been following
it all so closely, yes, and he's got a lot
of inside scoop, so he's great.

Speaker 3 (01:32:15):
It's going to be a good, good one great.

Speaker 2 (01:32:18):
Wow, this was a great fun night as always with you.
I'm so grateful that we get to be together and
thank you for listening. We'll be back tomorrow. Tune in.
Lots to discuss in the Epstein and Diddy cases. So
major unpack happening.

Speaker 3 (01:32:32):
There be good or be good at it. God done
done Dot, good night everyone. Stay safe.