The Jesse Butler Outrage & the Secrets of the L.A. Rampart Scandal

Diving into the explosive case against Jesse Butler — the Oklahoma teen accused of rape who walked free with no jail time. Then we unravel one of the most shocking police corruption scandals in U.S. history: the L.A. Rampart Division. Tune in for all the details.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Oh, welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. It's Thursday, November twentieth, and
guess what, we have a stacked night of headlines. Here's
the thing, everybody, from this point forward, we are not
going to say the word Epstein tonight, I promise, unless
you call in and tell us otherwise. We are putting
Epstein on a shelf for the evening. And i'men to

(00:43):
that because listen, there's a lot of things happening right now.
We're going to be discussing the controversial Jesse Butler case
and why Oklahoma has erupted in protest. Also, a judge
drops the felony charge against Ashley Buzzard remembers she the
mother of missing nine year old Melody. We've been talking

(01:04):
about this so much. Where is Melody and what does
that mean? And plus that news anchor, Remember we talked
about her earlier last week. I believe she's murdered her
mother while her mother was in bed? How could that
possibly happen? And what is there more to that story?
So we'll be unpacking that as well. And also we're

(01:24):
doing a bit of a deep dive back into some
of the cases that we just really care about want
to highlight because sometimes justice is not served the first
time until we talk about it right and unpack it
and prevent it from happening again. So the Central Park
five and the La Rampart scandal is our two cases

(01:44):
that are very close to our hearts, and we're going
to uncover those and talk a little bit more about
them as well. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Faddy Movin
and Courtney Armstrong as always my True Crime mates. How
are you both tonight?

Speaker 3 (01:59):
Excellent? It's cold, I'm cold? Is everything child too? It's
been raining, it's been yes inhaling and who it's been wild,
But I'm cozy.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
Though it's cozy time. Are you in sweater weather.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
Or what am I'm in sweater weather? I love that.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
By the way, are your Christmas lights up?

Speaker 3 (02:20):
I don't do Christmas lights or totally.

Speaker 4 (02:22):
Fair or holiday lights.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
By the way, when I say Christmas, this is not
a this is a non denominational holiday.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Of course, No, I just it's just me. So I'm
just whatever. I go to people's houses and I enjoy it.

Speaker 5 (02:34):
There no Christmas tree. I've got the little Charlie Brown
tree rore. That's what I do. Yeah, so I'm.

Speaker 6 (02:43):
Not allowed to have it up yet because wed my
husband he feels not until Thanksgiving, which our tradition is
the day literally the day after so.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
Black usually when we would do it too.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, you black Friday shop online and then also put
up the tree. I am really jumping the shark this year.
You go on, Oh, I have two Christmas trees up,
by the way, I'm not like a wild holiday decorator,
so this is very unique to this particular holiday. But
it's just been a weird year, and I am claiming

(03:17):
some cheer and happiness come hell or high water the end.
So suddenly I have holiday cheer everywhere, and I'd like
to spread it.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
So oh, I love that.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
I would have beaten me up this time last year,
So I am changing my tone.

Speaker 4 (03:33):
So yeah, there's so much to get to and listen.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
We have a ton of talkbacks from last night's shows,
so let's get the first one going.

Speaker 7 (03:40):
Hi, everyone, This is Julie again. I love True Crime
Tonight and I've listened to every single episode. I'm currently
listening to Crazy in Love as well. I know you
don't produce that anymore, but it's really good. I'm wondering
if you can comment on the Silwater, Oklahoma case of
Jesse Butler, who at seventeen committed or was convicted of

(04:01):
ten rape related charges.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
Oh boy, can we ever?

Speaker 6 (04:05):
Yes, we certainly can. We certainly can. And also thank
you for listening. And we're so glad that you're enjoying
Crazy in Love that just came up last week.

Speaker 4 (04:13):
Did we just talk about that?

Speaker 3 (04:14):
Maybe that's why, Yeah, we did.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
We talked about it, so in case you're not aware,
And again this is not a shameless plug, but Katie,
we made a podcast called Crazy in Love. We did
fifty two episodes, so it was a big bear of
a project, and every episode is basically about a love
story that all starts with white picket fences and perfect

(04:37):
love and it somehow ends in murder and you know,
we've all lived it. There's unfortunately, there's so many stories
to tell, but man, they were harrowing and interesting and
there's no words to describe how much psychology came out
in all of them, and you'll recognize the amazing Courtney
Armstrong's a voice and her hard work in it.

Speaker 6 (04:59):
So Hi five, well, high five back at you, Stephanie,
because you were right that we did those fifty two
step by so a lot of episodes.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
There's a lot of episodes. We love that show, though
we want to do more.

Speaker 5 (05:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (05:10):
Absolutely, But your question about Jesse Butler, Yes, this is
a case that absolutely should be talked about.

Speaker 4 (05:18):
Just a quick catch up.

Speaker 6 (05:20):
He's eighteen years old now, with seventeen at the time,
as you said, But Jesse Butler was arrested this wasn't
stillwater at Oklahoma back in March of this year for
assaulting two high school students. He pleaded no contest to
eleven charges. These charges include first degree rape and domestic
assault by strangulation. Okay, this guy, Jesse Butler, was facing

(05:43):
up to seventy eight years in prison. However, a judge
sentenced him to community service and counseling and no time
in prison due to a plea deal. Victims and their
families criticized the justice system for excuse Butler for these
eleven brutal charges. And many attribute his lenient sentence to

(06:06):
the family's local prominence. So yeah, the father was he
used to he was the former director of operations for
the Oklahoma State University's football team.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
Oh, here we go.

Speaker 6 (06:23):
But it's an outrage. It is an outrage, and I
think it's an absolute injustice. What he did to these
two high school students was horrible beyond it's unthinkable.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Honestly, what has been done here. This is one of
those cases that should get under all of our skin.
It is unimaginable pain that families have experienced as a result,
and really an unfair look at what the justice system
can look like.

Speaker 6 (06:53):
And these two brave high school girls came forward with
these allegations in addition the ones I said also battery
by strangulation, and the families are outrage And the mother
of one of the victims this was in an impact statement.
She criticized how her daughter quote had to prove she

(07:15):
was the victim over and over again while the system
made excuse after excuse for the person who hurt her.
My daughter has handled this with more strength than most
adults could. Watching her stay brave while adults failed her
has been both inspiring and heartbreaking and.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
By the way, what a hard lesson to have to
learn so young. And they should also know this is
not their end story. This is not the story that
will define them. But it's impossible to be a victim.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah, not that it matters, Courtney, But how old were
the victims?

Speaker 6 (07:47):
They were in high school? They weren't high school. Okay,
so probably sixteens. Yeah, maybe exactly, so sad, that's terrible.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
It's eleven charges and he got community service and these
girls were bruised.

Speaker 6 (08:00):
And okay, I'll give you one more snippet if I
may have an impact statement, And this was from one
of the victims. Ok And she said, I've had to
explain bruises, explain silence, Explain why I started isolating from
people who love me. You didn't just strangle me with
your hands. You strangled my voice, my joy, my ability

(08:22):
to feel safe in my own body.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Oh yeah, my god, says every victim who's been through
anything even close to that. Right. So, I think this
is a new day. I just want to say it.
I think we are entering an important time where all
of us this is not this is genderless men and women.
I think we could all agree not okay, and that

(08:45):
anybody who suffers in this way should be held accountable
for who's done this seteen months ago, yeah, fresh off
the presses. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (08:54):
And to answer your previous question, the two victims' most
report where it's say there were sixteen at the time
of the offenses. One report mentions one victim was fourteen
and the other sixteen. But again most of them say
they were two sixteen year olds, you know, and just
high school students. So I'm glad you asked about that

(09:17):
in your talk back because people should know some of
the crimes and sentencings that go along with it. And Stephanie,
you are correct, and I think it's worth repeating that
this is not the end of their story for these.

Speaker 4 (09:29):
No, this is not the story, right.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
The happier things will fill your life, that will replace
or absolutely maybe overwhelm some of these terrible things that
are such memories, can be so brutal post such an
attack or such a all of the things. We know this,
So I don't know. I think we're just hearing so
much about violence against young people and impressionable people. It's

(09:56):
not okay, it's not your fault. It's not your fault.

Speaker 4 (09:59):
This is community service should not be the answer.

Speaker 6 (10:02):
Sorry, I can rage and curse and spict is what
I would like to do with what this sentence was.
But we are going to move forward because we have
a couple of other stories to share. So I'm Courtney,
I'm here with Stephanie and Body, and we have been
talking about the Jesse Butler case and the injustice in
the sentencing as viewed by us. And I'd say just

(10:26):
about everyone, probably except for his family. If you have
your thoughts, we want to hear from you eight to
eight three one crime or hit us on the talkbacks
and Body, this case brought to our memories a couple
of other cases, if.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
You want to get into it.

Speaker 3 (10:39):
It did brock Turner. I know that we have mentioned
this case before, We've never really talked about it.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
No, we should know.

Speaker 3 (10:46):
Our theme tonight is injustice and Brockturner was the first
thing that when Taha called me today, I was like
brock Turner and so yeah, brock Turner. Brock Turner. He
was This is about ten years ago. He was a
nineteen year old Stanford student in the Bay student. He
was a swimmer and he was arrested in January of
twenty fifteen, after two graduate students witnessed him sexually assaulting

(11:11):
an unconscious woman. This woman was later identified publicly as
Channel Miller. Evidence showed the victim was very intoxicated, she
was unconscious, and she was physically injured. A year later,
in March of twenty sixteen, Turner was convicted of three
felony counts related to that assault and sexual penetration of

(11:32):
an intoxicated and unconscious person. The prosecutors in the case
sought a six year prison term, while probation officers recommended
a shorter sentence based on his lack of you know,
prior convictions. He didn't really have a criminal history. Judge
Aaron Persky sentenced Turner to six months in county jail
with three years probation and mandatory sex offender registration. Turner

(11:56):
Sir Brock Turner. He served three months of the sentence,
after which was after which he was required to return
to Ohio register as a sex offender in complete probation conditions.
The sentence like it was, this was you guys remember
this ten years ago. This was absolutely There was a

(12:16):
recall vote based on this because of the people were
so angry at this judge in California that it generated
really significant national criticism and you know, resulted in a
high profile campaign that led to the judge being recalled
by voters in twenty eighteen. He lost his job over this.
Public reaction to the case led to the changes in
California law, increased attention to the campus sexual assault policies,

(12:40):
and the publication of Channel Miller's memoir Know My Name.
I thought that was really powerful of her to do
excerpts of one of her impact statements. Instead of taking
time to heal, I was taking time to recall the
night in excruciating detail in order to prepare for the
attorney's questions that would be invasive, aggressive and designed to

(13:03):
steer me off course, to contradict myself, phrased in ways
to manipulate my answers. My damage was internal, unseen. I
carry it with me. You took away my worth, my privacy,
my energy, my time, my safety, my intimacy, my confidence,
and my own voice until today. Is that well said?

Speaker 5 (13:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (13:21):
I mean that is a list of lists. Yeah, it's
so true. It's so true, it is, and you know,
so yeah, that brought national outrage. I remember everybody was
talking about it. It was right before Me Too, like
a couple of years before Me Too. And when the
Me Too movement started, people were bringing up Rock Turner.

(13:43):
He was kind of like the case that you would
look to when you're talking about in justice against women.
And you know, the victim in this case has just
done really well. You know, this memoir is is very
well done. She's very well spoken, and I just wish
hear nothing but the best. Oh, I wish hear nothing
but the best.

Speaker 5 (14:00):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (14:00):
Absolutely, And if you or someone you know has been
a victim of sexual abuse, you can text the word
strength to the crisis text line. It's seven four to one,
seven four to one, and you will be connected to
a counselor.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
And listen.

Speaker 6 (14:16):
Keep it here, because we're going to go into one
of the most infamous, wrongful conviction cases in American history.

Speaker 4 (14:22):
True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight an iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lyidecker here with
my two favorite ladies on this beautiful Thursday night. I'm
Stephanie ly Decker here with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven
and of course we have producer Taha and Sam and
Adam in the control room waiting for your call. Please

(14:55):
jump in eight eight eight three one crime, or you
can always leave us talk back at True Crime Tonight's
show on Instagram and Facebook. No, no Instagram and TikTok,
or at True Crime Tonight on Facebook. That's to leave
us a little DM By the way, the talkbacks, you
just download the iHeartRadio app and there's a little microphone

(15:17):
in the top right hand corner and boom, you're on
the show. So listen, We've been talking about some controversial cases.
You know, we're so grateful for the caller that called
in earlier about Crazy in Love, which has bonded the
conversation about Jesse Butler. And it seems like we're just
seeing a lot into cases where the sentence doesn't necessarily

(15:39):
equal the crime, and the question is why. And I
think the obvious answer is money, right, good lawyers, a
little white privilege on the side, and suddenly what seems
like a very big deal is suddenly brushed under the
carpet because somebody has connection. And the idea that that

(16:02):
continues to happen for me personally is maddening, and I
know we can all do better, So it's important that
we talk about it. I read.

Speaker 6 (16:11):
Can I just say one more thing about Jesse Butler.
There was a protest just very recently because people are outraged.

Speaker 4 (16:19):
Yeah, they should be, because it's outrageous.

Speaker 6 (16:21):
So again, it was supposed to be a seventy eight
year sentence for the eleven counts.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
It's almost eighty years. Almost eighty years his whole life, basically.

Speaker 6 (16:31):
Yeah, and here's what one protester said, her name is
Tory Gray. The justice system here in Stillwater has allowed
a violent sex offender to walk free. Not only is
he currently free and loose on the streets, he's a
virtual student at Stillwater Public Schools as a senior. After

(16:52):
he finishes having the slap on the wrist, he doesn't
even have to register as a sex offender. He will
be conte quence free.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, but doesn't that track because again we're seeing that
on a larger scale globally with you know the name,
we will not mention on a very big scale right
of very powerful, influential, financially stable. Honestly, it's it's likely
a lot of you know, white privilege at its best,

(17:24):
do what it's saying, and the justice system should not
be rigged that way we're talking.

Speaker 5 (17:30):
Should, but I mean this is for me, Like I
feel like sometimes we talk about this, I've seen it
happen so long and so often that I don't know
whether I've become jaded or numb to it, or like
this case doesn't shock me, or these kind of things
don't because I've seen it happen so often, So this
isn't new to me, and it's not one people like,

(17:51):
oh my god, this is such a shock. It's it's
horrible that it's happening. But maybe one of the positives
is more people are become ware. You know, social media
has made it so that it's spirals and people can
hear more about it. But I think, you know, I've
heard about these for my entire life, and I don't

(18:12):
feel like enough happens to take enough in your quality
happens on either side. So I don't know whether it's
me that it's like, maybe I'm too numb and jaded
because I see it so often. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (18:24):
I'm tah, You're exactly right.

Speaker 6 (18:26):
It's a pervasive reality right now, and there's statistics to
back it up.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
It's not even in your head. It's let's talk about that.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
Like, okay, let's talk a really simple example of like
white privilege. Let's just talk about this. Let's lea is
crack cocaine versus cocaine? Okay, it's okay, so true. No, seriously,
cocaine is primarily used by white affluent people. Like let's
jet setters in Miami. Let's say New York. You know
a party in totally after hours, who's crack yous by

(18:57):
black people in that hood?

Speaker 5 (18:58):
Right in the hood.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
Five hundred grams of powder cocaine is a five year
mandatory minimum. Okay, well it was, it's recently been changed,
but this is the system that everything is built on, right,
five hundred grams is a five year mandatory minimum. Five
grams of crack is a five year minimum. Five hundred
grams versus five grams. Wow, And that's a really sick

(19:22):
and listen, white priviach doesn't mean that white people have
it easy either, That's not what it means. It just
means the system is built.

Speaker 5 (19:31):
To protect ten in some ways. Exactly this gentleman himself,
like he has the family members that can make sure,
you know, even when I'm reading more about it, like
the judge granted him, he has a relationship with the
team and he was one of the coaches, so you know,
all of those things that I wouldn't have a family
member that's a coach or one of the lead members

(19:53):
of this university, so I probably wouldn't get the same advantage.
But they you know, I again, no, there's nothing.

Speaker 4 (20:00):
Don't talk yourself out of it.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Taha. You're like, you're already backtracking on that. We're like, well,
I don't want to. I oh, well, this is just
how it is. Well, I think in a larger way,
it is not how the majority feels. And I know
we can do better. Number one, and money talks, right,
So how about the fact that if you have an
amazing lawyer, or you have amazing power or influence, these

(20:26):
things just go away. We're seeing that on every level
in this country right now, in the world, frankly, So
it's not a stain. I just know that we all
know that we can do better, and by talking about it,
we will.

Speaker 4 (20:40):
What's a solve.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
I don't have it in this exact second, but I
know we're all talking about it, hearing it, listening like
we can do better. And frankly, stories like this are
a reminder that we need to and we need to fast.
It's it's not fair.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
Yeah, yeah, I really agree totally. I just you know,
I think it's an important time. It's uncomfortable though, you know,
it's an uncomfortable topic.

Speaker 5 (21:05):
It is.

Speaker 4 (21:06):
It really is.

Speaker 5 (21:06):
I mean sometimes even for me, like it's awkward even
talking about it with everyone, and then now publicly like,
but I have learned to vocalize certain things a little
bit more and then share it. Like I tell this
unusually odd story to one friend. I was like, you know,
I said, isn't it so odd whenever you get a
new car, not that I get a new car after that,

(21:27):
when you have that, you know, temporary registration, the police
all will always pull you over. And he's like, what
are you talking about. I'm like, every time I've gotten
a new car, when you have the temporary registration I
get I can't even make it down the street because
they pulled me over like two or three sem Yeah,
And I assumed everyone in the world experienced it because
I was so nonchalant about it. He was like, I

(21:49):
get new cars, I've had registration I never had, and
lo and behold, I learned. So it's little subtle things
that I think and assume. But it's just an unusual.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
By the way, I will never forget. Like I was
at a grocery line. I'm very absent minded, as you
guys know. By the way, Taha looks like a movie star,
so I you know, I just want to like really,
but yes, I think that's a clean example. It's these
micro examples.

Speaker 5 (22:16):
By the way.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
Also, so I'm at a grocery line, I'm on a
girl's trip. I'm with two of my friends, both of
which are of color, but like again, like the most
perfect humans you've ever known, and we're online and typical
for me, I forget my license, I don't know where
my purses. Suddenly I've left my wallet in the red
aisle and blah blah blah. Right, so I'm confused, and
I'm holding up a huge line, and they're gracious and

(22:39):
they've seen this before, and lovely, lovely, lovely, and they
give me the time and the patience and we figure
it out and it's fine. And as we're leaving, my girlfriend,
who's African American and was like, that would.

Speaker 4 (22:50):
Never happen to me. Wow, Like that just wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
And it was an example of a small way of
how I experienced the world in a different way. And
by the way, this is like the most extraordinary human
who is smarter than anyone I know, like.

Speaker 4 (23:05):
All the things.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
And yeah, so the criminal justice system is a little
bit stacked, right, so we have to talk about it
and it's uncomfortable and tah, I love you so much.
Number one and number two. Like the sentencing piece of
it also is equated to cash, right, whoever has those
money gets the best lawyer, regardless of color. You also,

(23:31):
whoever is the most cash in their pocket wins, and.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
Who's likely to have generational wealth? Let you go, Yeah, right,
white people are because we white. As a white person,
I can say we've had more time in this country
without slavery and Jim Crow laws holding us down, right,
because Jim Crow is a big part of this, It's
a massive part of this. So just because the slaves

(23:53):
were free doesn't mean they were really free, right, right,
doesn't mean they were really able to start building money
for their family do things. I mean, listen, I don't
have any generational wealth. My mom owed money when she does,
if you know what I mean, Like like we're we're
not them, but we are not them, but white people
are you know, inherently more able to have generational wealth. Uh,

(24:16):
And you know that plays a really big part in
justice because like if you know, somebody that does have
generational wealth of any kind is going to be able
to be able to hire that lawyer.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Yeahs off the marking ticket because they know the cops,
father and grandfather and whomever.

Speaker 5 (24:38):
Even like where you live, Like you know, I can't
afford to live in certain fluent areas if I can't,
and now I have a school system that is not
up to par, and I can't even get into those
colleges that others can sell. It's right, it's it's a
whole cycle that needs to be readjusted. But it's it's
a lot for us to at least we're talking about it,
and I think more people are aware of it. And

(24:59):
that's why so much what happened with this recent administration
that took away the minuscule advantages or steps that would
help to let some of those people in the back door,
if you will, of like the more higher league idly colleges.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
Haha.

Speaker 3 (25:17):
You mentioned this, and it just reminded me. They got
rid of the missing and murdered reports. So, oh my god, discuss.

Speaker 4 (25:26):
Can we discuss this?

Speaker 2 (25:27):
How have we not talked about this? As I know,
we're going like completely off the rails, but like are
very important.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
Stuff, I know. So these are actually the.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
Most important stuff in the spirit of this whole.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
Show, the whole show, right, So all of us were
really kind of the missing and murdered Indigenous movement is
really important to us, right, all of us. We've done
podcasts about them, We've interviewed so many different tribal organizations.
You know, we try to get the word out as
best we can with our white faces, as best as

(25:57):
we can, right, and this.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Why wash we're without trying of course.

Speaker 3 (26:02):
Not yeah, I mean we have. I mean anyway, this
this report that that details all these statistics and it's
really important has been scrubbed from the government websites because
they said it was DEI.

Speaker 6 (26:15):
Yeah, the Department of Justice removed this report, and that
was to imply it was to comply with the administration's
executive order that is against diversity, equity and Inclusion DEI initiatives,
which we're hearing so much about. And it's it's so terrible.
The removal of this report that was congressionally mandated, by

(26:39):
the way, and it was called not one more people.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
I'll use the word again.

Speaker 6 (26:44):
People are outraged, including the lawmakers who helped.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
My senator about it because she was on the owners
who do well.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
How do I I want to do the same thing
I had Senator? Oh no way, Okay, yeah, I mean,
and we have to talk about this stuff in it
top I know we're touching on topics that are close
to heart, but it's close to aur hearts. You know,
we're in this together, number one. You so are like

(27:12):
leading us to.

Speaker 5 (27:13):
The right direction, number one.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
And the we're missing indigenous movement is unimaginably.

Speaker 4 (27:19):
It's so close to our hearts.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Okay, I says killing people in the streets, like we
know that's not okay my personal opinion, you're a maskless
person wearing a mask, and I.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Would fight back. I mean I would, I don't.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
I don't even know how if you recover from the
trauma of that, let alone the experience in the confrontation.
So the reality is, I know we can all do better, period,
and I think we are. We're one step closer to
doing better. I know it, I know it in my heart.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
Well, maybe for the you know, upcoming holiday season. I
will pray for that optimism that you have. Seriously, you
know what.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
I mean, I really look about how we can how
we have such a great community everybody have brought you
know this truth in tonight. Community is big, amazing and
mighty and strong and in alignment. By the way, we
don't have to agree. We're not like an agenda driven.
In fact, let's spark up the combo, like we want
to learn and understand. We're curious, this is a no

(28:26):
judgment zone. But how do we do better if we
can't talk about it?

Speaker 5 (28:31):
And I think that's the key. I think that's the step,
is just communicating, just talking about it, like I've learned
something from each of you, and I think you learned
something from me. Of course, I think that's maybe that
little nugget that we're learning from each other. Someone out
there listening is like, oh, I didn't think of that perspective.
So maybe that's the first step. We all are just communicating,
talking amongst ourselves, educating other people, and look at it

(28:54):
from my angle, maybe that helps.

Speaker 6 (28:56):
Maybe is sorry well, and it is important because things
that are and talked about. Just one more thing on
the Missing and Murdered Indigenous People Report. I remember and
Stephanie I have quoted this a thousand times. You know,
experts have said that Indigenous women, particularly, they're killed three
times murder victims, first in actual physical life and then

(29:20):
with law enforcement, and then in the media because nobody
says a word, he already says a word, then there
is no pressure on the justice system, and then it's
an absolute triangle of terror.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
Have you guys heard of the Emily Pike case.

Speaker 5 (29:34):
I have.

Speaker 3 (29:35):
Yeah, it's terrible.

Speaker 5 (29:36):
It's terrible.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
But I want to say, and I might be incorrect,
but I want to say that spurred on in Arizona,
the Turquoise alert and the turquois it did. Yeah, So
the turquoise alert is specifically for Indigenous peoples who have
gone missing. Like it's like an Amber alert, but it's
a turquoise alert, and I love that. Well, maybe we'll
talk about that. We've got some great feedback on our talkbacks.

(29:57):
We're going to be diving into those and later. One
of the biggest police corruption scandals in US history, the
LAPD's Rampart Division. Ooh sounds scary.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
And listen, we want to hear from you. So, first off,
thank you for the talkbacks. We so love them. Keep
them coming. We're going to try to get through as
many as possible tonight, So let's head to a talkback
right now.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
Good morning True Crime tonight.

Speaker 8 (30:20):
This is Sarah from Michigan, and I have a feeling
that I'm going to be feeling like Stephanie did after
the whole BK thing because David I was very like
I was sold on not hanging him out to dry
yet because it didn't make sense to me why you
would dispose of a body in your own vehicle.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
So it sounded like he was being framed.

Speaker 8 (30:40):
But I might have to eat my words. I was
being too positive.

Speaker 6 (30:44):
Don't be yourself, Sarah. Yeah, well we don't know though,
you know, we got free. Not only has there not
has he not been found guilty of anything. There has
not yet been a trial. He has not yet been
convicted or even arrested. So you know where a whole
bunch of steps away. Well that's the right mindset.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
Sorry, but jump on no please, body, I was just
going to say, that's the right mindset. Innocent until proven guilty.
It's like we can't just jump in and start accusing
people or assuming things. That's such a dead end for
anybody named in an investigation. When it's wrongful, it's really
hard to come back from that. So I applaud the.

Speaker 5 (31:27):
Holdout, and I'm still hopeful too, because I mean, you know,
it's something about it always felt too obvious, like do.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
You want to know?

Speaker 5 (31:35):
Videos with the body in the car, all of it
felt like this feels stage. But I don't know. I'm
going to still be hopeful like Stephanie and much like Sarah,
but I don't know, Boddy, you know more that's happened lately,
so maybe you're going to sway me to go the
other direction.

Speaker 3 (31:51):
I wanted to say a couple of things. Number one,
to Courtney's point, you know, he hasn't been convicted, there's
been no trial. And also we really haven't heard from
LAPD officially. All these like LAPD sources, right, It's not
like so and so with LAPD says right, it's an
LAPD source, and we just really don't know who that
source is and how much they know about the case.

(32:12):
But there is an update. I'll go ahead, stuff let me,
I'll do the up. I'll save it for the end.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Oddly, I am losing hope.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
What do you mean?

Speaker 2 (32:20):
I actually think that there's more to it. I've in
the same way. I'm like, this poor guy is getting
like I think he did death by association here, Like,
let's like he had lost his whole tour. He's like
somehow being roped into some messy situation with this beautiful
young girl. How do we not have justice? And I
think for some reason, I woke up today feeling a

(32:41):
little bit like my spidey sense, which doesn't count. That's
my spidey sense, is not the court of law. So
let's acknowledge that first and foremost. But I don't know.
I think there's something too. I do think there's something
coming in the arrest department.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
I do too, and at the very minimum, something about
grooming a child. She's fourteen years old, thirteen years old
when you know they were you know together or when
they got together. But on Tuesday, TMZ as we know,
citing law enforcement sources, reported that the LAPD Department considered
him a suspect in Solessa's death and this is the update,

(33:20):
and said investigators were looking into a specific trip that
happened earlier this year to a remote area in Santa
Barbara County.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
That's where you lost me. I read that and I
tracked it. I like mapped it. I don't know. There's
something about the timeline there that doesn't feel It is
a feeling that a fact, and feelings are not facts.
So allow me to be clear. This is my personal
I'm going on a limb here, and I don't do
this often, and I have been a little bit like

(33:52):
I I'm not buying the whole David thing. Really, I've
been saying this behind the scene at least, so when
eating my words.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
When people have been reaching out for contact about, you know,
with the LAPD to confirm what the spokesman has said
they or this you know LAPD source, a spokesperson with
the LPED said the department wouldn't confirm tmd's report. But
since then, other news organizations have also been reporting similar details,
so it seems like maybe this LAPD source might be

(34:22):
do it. So we need to keep that in mind
moving forward. But yeah, that's my David.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
I think we have some real action happening very very soon.
I think as we speak, this is my prediction and
I'm off and wrong. So take this really just as
just air talking but my assessment is that this was
placed in the media on purpose. They're looking for everybody
to talk. David the pop star was living a fat

(34:49):
life twenty thousand dollars a month in rent at a
rental in the Hollywood Hills right before the famous Chateau
Marmond off of Sunset Boulevard. If you don't know Hollywood, it's.

Speaker 4 (35:02):
Like tray the spot.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
This is the spot that you would imagine greatness at.
So here's a guy live in large. He was a
COVID kid, he who was home for many years, never
returned to school, became a pop star kind of unexpectedly.
He was kind of online doing his thing. It was
like he was those like.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
For his videos just kept getting copyright struck. In his
horm we'll just make your own music, then, that's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
It was a little like justin Bieber esque in that
he was sort of like, surprise, now you're famous and
you're the real deal. And his mother encouraged him to
create his own music all of the things. It's like
the American it's like the American dream in terms of music.
And maybe he had a bit of an arrested development
situation going. He was thrown into the spotlight. I wasn't

(35:51):
super familiar with him, to be honest, prior to this
story hitting our desks.

Speaker 4 (35:58):
So here he is.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
He's a world or that I am familiar with. That
is a very very very big deal and not easy
to get or coordinate. And there's a lot of money,
a lot of jobs on the line there. You do
not get tossed off a tour or quit a tour easily.
You just don't know. There's the thousands of people in

(36:19):
the makings on this, not just working on it, but
rehearsing for it, and the accountants and the production.

Speaker 4 (36:26):
It is big.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
So for that to go away, I actually felt sorry
for him, And now I feel like his inner circle
they are expecting them to turn on each other. I agree,
and I'm pretty confident somebody will I did do.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
The pressure is mounting.

Speaker 6 (36:41):
The pressure is on well, someone to Jarrett Farentino, who
was on last night the Prosecutor. You know he mentioned
he called out the fact that the source has said
that multiple people they believe dismembered celest Fernandez, and that's.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
Think about that night or day. I just imagine that
for a hot second, and we should all be super
enraged by this. Imagine multiple people that have big lives
ahead of them taking the time together in unison, hacking
up a fourteen year old now fifteen year old, beautiful
young body of Celeste revs Hernandez and then tossing her

(37:28):
body parts in the trunk or fronk air quotes of
a tesla, like that seemed like a group effort, Like
what was that experience for all of them? Think about
the sicko moments that that must have been. For a
group effort to dismember a body is literally next level.

(37:49):
And anybody who participated should really do the time.

Speaker 5 (37:53):
Yeah, and you know, when I'm close enough that or
wealthy enough that could convince me to be involved with
something that horrendous.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Or just be prepared to do the epic amount of
time and what comes with that, Like you do the crime,
you do the time in that case, and.

Speaker 5 (38:08):
I'd notice it if he were dating someone that age
in ball, That's another one I would have a a
big issue with.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
How about that? Now we have to assume that most
of the friends, we've heard reports that they all thought
that she was nineteen and attending university. They all thought
she wasn't fourteen years old. She wasn't a super minor,
so let's give them that. But if David the pop
star is in fact involved and was having a sexual

(38:34):
relationship of any kind with Celeste, that would also be illegal.

Speaker 5 (38:41):
Right. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (38:43):
Wow, That's so glad the world.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Tour is over because I was really concerned about it
for a hot second there, I really was. I was like,
oh my goodness, the world tour has ended. I mean,
what if he didn't do it? Like we've now taken
all this money and success out of his pocket. He'll
never live again. If this is true, it will be devastating.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
This is your Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Boddy, move
in and I'm here with Stephanie Leijaker and Courtney. I'm
strong and we have Taha joining in and hopping in
quite often tonight, which I'm really excited about. Actually we're
talking about you know, listen, we're just taking some talkbacks.
If you want to weigh in, give us a call
at eighty eight thirty one crime. Do we want to
do another talk about or what do we do?

Speaker 5 (39:22):
Let's do it talk, Let's do it.

Speaker 9 (39:24):
Hay True crime tonight. This is Erica from up to State,
New York. A couple of shows ago, someone called in
or had a talk back about the sattings they were
picking up from you. And the one that I keep
trying to say is Stephanie's pacocta, but I keep accidentally
saying Pakasha.

Speaker 3 (39:44):
I love you guys.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
I don't even know where I get the cocta from.

Speaker 4 (39:49):
I think it is you Destoyer, right, it.

Speaker 5 (39:52):
Means exactly where you got it from because I worked
together with this.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah, we worked for the same person, Taha and I
one thousand and fifty years ago worked the exact same
person I was. In turn, he was a fancy producer
then even then, and yes, our boss would always be like,
this is for cocta. I remember thinking, what does that
even mean?

Speaker 3 (40:14):
Does it mean?

Speaker 2 (40:15):
It means like.

Speaker 5 (40:17):
Disarray kind of like yeah.

Speaker 4 (40:21):
My life is.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
Yeah, I'm looking it up right now. I don't know
how I spell it, though, do I say it that often?
I don't know how to see you. I don't know
how to die.

Speaker 5 (40:30):
And every person that like, whenever I'm around someone a
Jewish person, they always think like, where did you learn that?
And the other one, Amy, the same person I've talked about,
used to call me and I was like, what does
that mean? And so I found out that's like sort
of like a gossipy kind of like in your business
ye kind of person.

Speaker 4 (40:48):
Wait, okay, so I have it.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
I have the actually, like I just got the actual
definition for cocta.

Speaker 4 (40:55):
So it's kind of like it's spelled f A.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
C A seat he a f A c A c
t a that by my spelling, it has helped this
at all, But regardless, it means something ridiculous, messed up
or broken.

Speaker 10 (41:13):
Yeah, okay, by the way, in California, we would say
instead of yani or is that what you would say
chi molsa?

Speaker 3 (41:25):
Like your gossip.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
Just sounds like a cocktail and just like I don't
even know if I'm saying it right, but yeah.

Speaker 5 (41:35):
I've heard that.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
Okay, was just that was just like not Jewish?

Speaker 4 (41:40):
Is that true?

Speaker 6 (41:41):
No?

Speaker 7 (41:41):
Know?

Speaker 6 (41:42):
Does like like busy body like in your.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Stuff, like chatty Kathy, what are you doing? A little?

Speaker 4 (41:50):
He got there?

Speaker 2 (41:51):
That's funny, I think of myself, But you are, You're
actually the opposite.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
My dream is to get like a Margaret read it
with you with a big bowl.

Speaker 5 (42:02):
Just let's make that reality.

Speaker 3 (42:06):
It's my favorite thing margarita's chips and salsa and just
gossip like in that scenario.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
Absolutely, let's do it doing that all right now, anybody
listening is drinking a margarita with some chips in salsa,
gossiping and having a day that may have been a
bit facta get you are. You were so there in spirit.
I love it to Thursday.

Speaker 5 (42:34):
I feel like we need another one, Adam, give us
another fun one.

Speaker 9 (42:39):
I just want to say, taha, I'm right there with you.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
In and Out is okay. I don't crave it.

Speaker 8 (42:45):
I'll eat if everyone else is there, But I just
feel like there are way better burgers than and Out?

Speaker 4 (42:54):
How dare you?

Speaker 3 (42:56):
How dare you?

Speaker 2 (42:58):
In my personally this stuff, I don't have a lot
of choices, So In and Out is like Celiac approved,
and they they're nice to me, so you know, I'll
take what I can get, even if it's a buttered brick,
I will eat it with happiness. So I might not
be the gauge, but I used to love a Big Mac,

(43:18):
and man did I love Yeah, So I'm not sure
that I'm the best taste.

Speaker 3 (43:23):
I like Whoppers more than Big Max because they're the
flame grilled you know, but I mean they're in and
out though.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
It's just so.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
I just I love animal style in and out, and
I love their shakes.

Speaker 4 (43:34):
I just like the shakeshare.

Speaker 5 (43:35):
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
There's the Politano yes, yeah, which is like the strawberry,
vanilla and chocolate all swirled together. Don't get me started.

Speaker 5 (43:44):
I don't like mine is the one I live near,
is the fantasy one. You always see that the sum
oh yeah, after the Oscars, and there's always like a
twenty to thirty minute wait to get in. So first
of all, like I've done that thirty minute wait, and
you wait where You're like, this is it? I could
have gone two blocks down and had a Wendy's in
three seconds.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
And Wendy's is nothing to Chili is awesome. I like
it when that cheese fry, how about the cheese on
the side and you dip your Wendy's French fry And
I can't do this because of the Celiac because everything
gets grilled and like putting the same I don't know.
The I don't know, don't get me start cross contaminat
but like the cross contamination, but the cheese on the

(44:27):
side and then you dip your Wendy's fries in the
cheese right now.

Speaker 5 (44:34):
That I can't pretty much anything with cheese. Yeah, I'm
the same with me too. But I was great to
say that live on air, and a couple of people
called me later and said, you should not have said that.
People are going to be standing outside your front door
with pitchfork. So right, But because you in and out,
in and out, He's like, oh.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
Oh, either way, so scandalous.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
I can't believe you. You talked crap about in and out.
You're you know, like, no, please, it's fine. It's not
like we're, you know, disciples.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
I'm a little bit of a disciple, but my limited Yeah,
but I've never had.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
What waa burger? And I've heard what a burger is
really good? And every time I say like in and out,
somebody from Texas or you know, Oklahoma or something's like,
what a waa burgers so much better? I'm like, dude,
I've never had that. Okay, I don't know what to
tell you anyway. Coming up, the latest on former news
anchor accused of killing her mother and the new information

(45:31):
raising serious questions of about her mental state. Plus a
Washington Man allegedly inspired by murderer Taratus Deckermemraham, Don't forget
keep it right here a true Grime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight an iHeartRadio. We have
been talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lydek
here with Courtney Armstrong, body move in. Of course we
have Taha, our amazing producer, and of course our amazing
Adam and Sam in the control room.

Speaker 4 (46:11):
They are holding down the fort.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
If you want to call in live, they are waiting
by the phone. So eight eight eight three one Crime.
Or you can always leave us a talkback or hit
us up on our social media. Feel free to dm
us or keep in mind we want to hear from you.
That is the name of the game, So no judgment zone. Courtney,

(46:34):
we have a lot of headlines to get to. What
do you think we do have a lot of headlines.
This one's a sad one. It's Angie Mack.

Speaker 6 (46:42):
And if you guys are called Angie is a former
Saint Louis news anchor. She was arrested on Halloween this year,
and she was charged with first screen murder after allegedly
stabbing her eighty year old mother, Anita to death. So
there's a new released please Affid David, and it details

(47:03):
that Angiemocks mental states seems like it had been deteriorating
for really quite some time. It was years of mental
health struggles prior psychiatric treatment and even some outbursts that
were observed by family members.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
So it's a very sad situation that has but it.

Speaker 6 (47:24):
Also somewhat explains when we were trying to figure out,
you know, there's an eighty year old woman lying in bed,
what could cause and mental illness if your literal mind
is not in the state of correctness and reality?

Speaker 2 (47:42):
Can we jump in on mental illness too? I mean again,
I feel like we're doing a very esoteric episode right now.
But another thing that I would say, after the many
years and working in true crime, mental illness is such
a big factor. I know we can do better and
it sounds like this case is an example of that. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (48:04):
So this again, this tragedy Angie.

Speaker 6 (48:08):
It reveals that Angie had told nine one one that
her mother had tried to kill her, which then prompted
her to stab her eight year old mother in self defense.
Officers found the mom, Anita, deceased, with the multiple stab
wounds several blood covered knives from the kitchen and a

(48:32):
cheese grater nearby, and this is all in the Affidavid
And during Angie's multiple multiple statements, they were conflicting. They
included claims that her mother was sharpening knives and chasing her,
and ultimately revealed that she believed her mother was the devil.

(48:54):
Angie was treated for lacerations to her hands and her
arms and then was invested get it by police, and
during that time she continued with delusional statements. So there's
a competency state hearing that's been ordered and it will
determine whether Angie is mentally fit to stand trial.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
M I wonder, you know this happened around the same
time that other women in Michigan kind.

Speaker 5 (49:19):
Of Oh, I wonder what's going on? True?

Speaker 3 (49:23):
Yeah, that's a good point, because I mean, yeah, this
sounds like there's some mental health issues going on there.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Are we a little biased though, because she's a woman killer?

Speaker 3 (49:32):
Are we?

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Maybe?

Speaker 10 (49:35):
Well?

Speaker 5 (49:35):
Maybe maybe I think the bias for me was a
little bit like she's a not that you should judge
a book by its cover, but she's this this very
attractive news anchor and seems so together when I went
back and looked at some of her past appearances on TV.
So not that that, you know, is a factor, but
I mean for me, that was what threw me the most.
I'm like, wow, she like, how could that happen? Yeah,

(49:57):
Like she's so sharp.

Speaker 6 (50:00):
I mean, breaks can happen, and you know, I know
what you're talking about in the poise that Angie had
on air. Absolutely, However, in recent years, Angie had lived
with her mother and her stepfather, and this was after
losing her job. And she lost her job because of
something described as an explosive situation involving alcohol. We don't

(50:21):
have further details, Angie step five tracks.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
A little bit more. Yes.

Speaker 6 (50:27):
The stepfather also stated that Angie had a history of
mental health issues, including a diagnosis for psycho effective disorder,
and other families members again recounted angry outbursts and she
had a two week hospitalizations. Okay, yeah, so it seems

(50:48):
like something something was very wrong.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
Yeah, so, and and it shows and the details are
sad and tragic, and.

Speaker 4 (50:58):
Yeah, I was doing this like a little bit of
a deep dive.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
It's funny. Last night I had met some new some
new friends, and one of them had gone to high
school with the girls. Listen, new two friends of a
new friend. Of course, not you guys is making you're
not daughters already. You guys are my family, my girls.
I wish you with me twenty four hours a day,

(51:20):
literally seven days a week, and we would be having
like ham sandwiches and ham sandwiches.

Speaker 4 (51:26):
Nobody wants that.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
We want the most delicious people to put her in
jelly sandwiches and.

Speaker 4 (51:32):
Corn beef and roast beef and rubens.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
But so in this one of them was telling me
that she went to high school with a girl who
murdered her mother for really no apparent reason, maybe for
insurance money, which I was like, you have to come
on the show and discuss mattre side is very unusual.
It's very unusual for a woman to kill her own mother.
Happens rarely. I think the numbers are doing a deep dive.

(51:58):
It's their numbers are very, very low. So I guess
that's where my brain goes to mental illness. That is
not to discount mental illness and other murders and homicides
that involve men. Obviously, I would go so far as
to say mental illness and so many of the homicides
that we cover or murders that we cover is probably

(52:21):
pretty unchecked and relevant. So again, good that we're talking
about it.

Speaker 5 (52:26):
Yeah, good that we're talking about it. But another sad
level is how challenging it is to get the kind
of help that you Yeah, true, seems like it's more
and more. Please don't tell me that's true.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
Well, Christine Christine said she will, she wants. She's desperate
to talk to you anytime. Who's Christine Christine who was
on the show.

Speaker 4 (52:45):
The other day when we had the worst audio in
the PJS.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
Yes with the fire arm, Yes, exactly, with the firelight,
by the way, it was, How great was she? She's
going to come back and like fill us in all
kinds of important holiday pre stuff.

Speaker 4 (52:57):
But she is available to you anytime.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
I love her, Okay, I really did enjoy her. I
just wish that her poor smoke alarm wasn't going on.

Speaker 4 (53:08):
She was great.

Speaker 6 (53:09):
It was an emergency, yes, right, So guess what we're
on True crime tonight. We are on BRA on iHeartRadio.
I'm Courtney, I'm here with body, I'm here with Stephanie,
and I have a bunch of marbles in my mouth
in this moment. We've been speaking about Angie Mock and

(53:31):
we want to hear from you about anything we've been
speaking about this evening.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
So give us a call.

Speaker 6 (53:36):
We're at eight eight eight through one crime or hit
us up on the talk backs and body you had
some headlines to share as well.

Speaker 3 (53:43):
Right so on Washington mother she made a domestic violence
call which led police to a state wide manhunt after
her ex allegedly assaulted her, kidnapped their two children, and
threatened to kill them like Travis Decker. I'm using quotes
Travis Decker. Do you guys remember the Travis Decker case.

(54:04):
Of course, he killed his three beautiful young children, and
then there was this like, you know, nationwide manhunt for him,
and he was later found I think skeleton, you know,
his skeleton was found, basically correct the end. So this
incident began when a woman in Monroe, Washington, reported that
her ex boyfriend assaulted her, stole her car, and fled

(54:26):
while their young children were inside the home. The case
escalated when she told police he had threatened to kill
the kids in a manner referencing Travis Decker again, who
is the father that murdered his daughters earlier? This year,
she reported this assault, car theft, and the disappearance of
her seven year old and ten ten month year old

(54:48):
children to Monroe Police. She told the officers or ex
had allegedly threatened to kill her and the kids. The
suspect allegedly attempted to run the mother over as she
tried to turn home to check in on the children.
Police issued a statewide be on the lookout at a
bolo right alert and coordinated an ambler alert. Authorities have

(55:10):
not released the suspect's name. The county deputy located the father,
the vehicle, and both children alive, thank god. The suspect
was arrested and booked on multiple charges, including two counts
of first degree kidnapping, with the bail set two hundred
thousand dollars.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (55:30):
Yeah, So this threat that referenced Travis Decker, the father
from nearby Leavenworth, this is kind of in the same
area of the country who again earlier kidnapped and killed
his three daughters before dying himself. So sad, I mean,
can you imagine, like you live in the area where
all this happened, where Travis Decker happened, and now your

(55:53):
ex has your kids and he's saying, I'm going to
kill them like Travis Decker and then takes off with them.
I will terror, literally frantic, like especially because they've all
lived in this area. Obviously they're all familiar with Travis Decker.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
No, they were following it so closely, trying to find him. Right, Yeah,
that's a version of abuse. Oh, one hundred percent like torture,
right yeah.

Speaker 4 (56:17):
Exactly, like psychological terror.

Speaker 3 (56:20):
Yeah, Blessings upon blessings is that they found him and
the kids were unharmed. It's almost like he is doing
some kind of power move on hers, Like.

Speaker 2 (56:33):
Can that be? Like, don't get me started. You know
why they haven't released his name. Yeah, it just seems
like that alone is a version of terror. You're threatening
to harm and kill your kids like that should count
for some sort of a some sort of a something,
And for a mother or a father to hear that

(56:56):
information is pretty unimaginable. And I don't know, I think
that's also worthy of some sort of criminal justice.

Speaker 3 (57:05):
Well, he's being held at the county Corrections Bureau and
it's Sonomish County. I hope I saw that right. Please
don't beat me up if I didn't. Washington, I love
you on charges including felony harassment, which is the threats
to kill, yeah, and second degree domestic violence.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
Yeah that sounds right.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
Yeah, Okay, I feel like there has to be a
better word because that doesn't seem like harassment. It seems
like torture.

Speaker 5 (57:30):
Torture, Yeah it is.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
Yeah, that's for sure. You're threatening to take the lives
or harm your own children. Yeah, that's like emotional warfare.

Speaker 3 (57:40):
Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
Psychological war Yeah, psychological warfare. I guess that's a common
I don't know if you have a better answer, jump
in join the comedy of a D eight eight three
one crime.

Speaker 5 (57:52):
Definitely.

Speaker 6 (57:52):
I'm going to guess the felony harassment likely raises what
the child, what the sentence would be, so it might cover.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
Maybe that's a question we can ask Jared Jared.

Speaker 5 (58:05):
Yeah, we'll keep our list for him because I when
he's there.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
It's such a tough one because people say all kinds
of nutty things in a fight, right.

Speaker 4 (58:17):
Justified.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Everybody feels justified in all kinds of moments.

Speaker 5 (58:22):
So that is a.

Speaker 2 (58:23):
Tough thing about the law and a tough thing about words.
When is the word the word? When is it like
this is a threat and this is noise. And that's
a really hard line for law enforcement to determine. By
the way, that's a really hard line for a human
being to understand.

Speaker 5 (58:42):
A line.

Speaker 4 (58:43):
How do you know when someone's.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
Like, I'm just like telling you I'm going to kill
you and they actually mean they're going to kill you.

Speaker 4 (58:49):
That's like people say.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Things in the moments that it seems silly, right, but
something like that the Travis Decker of it all, who.

Speaker 3 (59:00):
I was gonna say that that's a line.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
It is so yeah to me that it's black and white.

Speaker 4 (59:07):
But it's a reminder.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
Just I'm only saying that. I'm only making the distinction
for any mother or father or anyone who's not sure,
is like that crossing the line? Did they mean it?
Take it as though they mean it. And then I
don't think those words in any circumstance, any threats of
any kind that might just feel like, oh, background, noise,

(59:29):
It didn't really mean it. You should take it as.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
Though they do, because especially considering the context. I mean,
it's one thing to have a fight with your partner,
right and I'm going to kill you, you know.

Speaker 4 (59:38):
But you shouldn't for expression that you should never say.

Speaker 3 (59:41):
That and it said I kill you and the kids
like Travis Decker, that's like, what but if someone.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
Says they're going to kill you, trust them that's true,
that's true. And I think that gets that's like again
that it's such a fine lote, like the scope is
so big, but we can't throw those words around so loosely.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
So but what if like okay, but there's different kinds
of things like you leave the milk out and your
husband or wife is like, I'm going to Oh, I'm
going to kill you if you do this again. I mean,
you know, I mean I think that's you know nothing,
it's but if you're if you're fighting and you know
it has potential to be physical and they're saying things
like I'm going to kill you, I think that is

(01:00:24):
a warning sign in a red flag that you probably
should you know of advocate.

Speaker 5 (01:00:29):
Then, like when you're explaining that story to a police officer,
how do how do they know which context it wasn't
like was it the I'm going to kill you for
the milk or I'm going to kill you, Like they
don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
That they should kill you over the milk. I don't
know that we should talk that way. I know if
someone says, like, you know, I think you should be
kinder about the milk and choose different words.

Speaker 5 (01:00:51):
Very true, very good.

Speaker 4 (01:00:53):
This case doesn't seem very fuzzy.

Speaker 6 (01:00:55):
The suspect allegedly tried to run her over, that's all,
you know. He then kidnapped her children. He's been charged.
So this is nothing's fuzzy in my universe with this.
In any case, what I say about the milk in
my house, that does get fuzzy.

Speaker 4 (01:01:12):
So I hear what you say. What's a better word?

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Like I'm being I sound dramatic. I don't mean to be.
I don't mean to be. What's a better word? All Like,
what's the word? But I get it. It's annoying when
the milk.

Speaker 4 (01:01:25):
Is out, that's for sure. Yeah, all right, well listen,
keep it here.

Speaker 6 (01:01:28):
We've got the rampart scandal that rocked LAPD and much
more True crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and I Heart Radio.
We're talking true crime all the time. Happy Thursday, everybody,
and listen if you want to jump in and join
the conversation.

Speaker 4 (01:01:56):
Eight eight eight three one Crime.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with my sweet booze, my cheekas,
my mates, my favorite partners in crime, solving, crime, justice,
you name it, and they are here with us exactly.
Courtney and Body are in the house and Sam and
Adam are holding down the fort ready to hear from you.

Speaker 4 (01:02:18):
So so much to discuss.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Listen, the whole idea for tonight was talking about justice
and injustice. It's sort of the left hand right hand.
I'm making the I'm doing the thing when the scales
of skills comes the left to the right right so light.
I don't know I'm making the I'm making that movement
right now. And honestly, it's all a conversation. So please

(01:02:44):
share with us what your thoughts are. They do not
need to be any of ours. That's how we grow.
So where should we start? First, Courtney, I know, body
actually wants to jump in first, No, Courtney, want to
jump on. This was actually the Body just put her
finger on her nose and.

Speaker 6 (01:03:05):
Just said, not it, not it, not it, okay.

Speaker 4 (01:03:10):
Injustice, this is more than a case.

Speaker 6 (01:03:14):
This is a scenario of injustice that is gigantic.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
So I just wanted to talk about this.

Speaker 6 (01:03:21):
So the Rampart scandal, Rampart is a place in Los
Angeles and Rampart scandal. It was a police corruption scandal
that unfolded during the late nineties and early two thousands.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
I brought this up a couple of days ago.

Speaker 6 (01:03:37):
And it involved a criminal involved widespread criminal activity within
the crash unit, which should for community resources against street hoodlums.
So it was the anti gang unit in.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
The Rampart Division.

Speaker 6 (01:03:53):
More than seventy police officers were initially implicated. And this
was in various forms of misconduct. That was police brutality.
There was planting false evidence, there was drug dealing, stealing,
there was a bank robbery, there.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
Was perjury, there was cover ups.

Speaker 6 (01:04:09):
Yeah, so this is the stuff actually literally of movies.
It's the stuff of there's a Denzel Washington movie. Oh yes, yes,
movie will come up with then. And also the Shield
with Michael Chicklis, which was I love that. I love this, Yes,

(01:04:30):
so briefly March eighteenth, ninety seven. So that's where we are,
and keep in mind, gang wars are everywhere. Sure, an
off duty officer named Kevin Gaines was shot and killed
by an undercover officer, Frank Laga, and this was during
a road rage incident. So the undercover officer Ligo was

(01:04:52):
cleared of wrongdoing after an investigation found that he acted
in self defense. All right, So the Gaines family, the
man who was killed, filed wrongful death lawsuit. The city
settled for a quarter of a million dollars. So later
in twenty nineteen ninety seven, another officer, David mack orchestrated

(01:05:16):
a seven hundred and twenty two thousand dollars Bank of
America robbery and he was sentenced over fourteen years in
federal federal prison. So so far we have a murder
by vehicle and bank robbery. February of the next year,
another officer he beat a handcuffed gang member named Ismail

(01:05:37):
Jimenez at the rampart station. He was ultimately fired the
officer and him Andez received another quarter of a million
dollar civil settlement. So this is all really coming to
a head. And then what really broke it open was
in May of that year, the following the discovery of

(01:06:01):
missing cocaine from the evidence room, Officer Perez, who was
a nine year veteran, was arrested for stealing six pounds
of cocaine.

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
A lot of that is that a lot of cocaine
that's a lot of cocaines six pounds.

Speaker 5 (01:06:16):
I think it's you know, couns. This is what will
work with a watermelon that weighs six pounds or like anything.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
A baby, it's a baby, Courtney. You you're talking about
this crash team? Yes, And in the Shield it was
called Strike Unit, remember, yes, So this really was kind
of like a parallel of the Rampart.

Speaker 6 (01:06:40):
Absolutely the work entitled yes exactly right now.

Speaker 4 (01:06:43):
Because they were based on.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
Somebody like an officer in the Shield?

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
How about you guys have like West Wing and the
Shield in common.

Speaker 4 (01:06:52):
It's crazy making and wires.

Speaker 5 (01:06:53):
Definitely you love the Shield because I love you?

Speaker 4 (01:06:56):
And then which do I start first?

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
I always think of Michael. Isn't he the Equalizer? No?

Speaker 3 (01:07:03):
No, Michel Michael was he was the rock guy? Oh yeah,
wasn't he?

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:12):
But one of the other guys is the dude from
White Lotus, the thing, Walter Walter Gagon or what's his name?

Speaker 5 (01:07:25):
Who the guy with the longer hair?

Speaker 6 (01:07:28):
Play it's Michael Dogs, Michaels, sick List you Equalizer, Country Waltons.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
Okay, Sam, it's your way to save the day and
it was Michael chicklist In.

Speaker 4 (01:07:42):
Wasn't he the Equalizer?

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
He was in The Fabulous No, the TV.

Speaker 4 (01:07:47):
Show The Equalizer, I don't know the TV show.

Speaker 5 (01:07:50):
Yeah, the TV show, I'm not sure, but but Denzel
was in Training Day. That was the movie we were
thinking about Payaball.

Speaker 4 (01:07:58):
We are, okay, so let's get back on.

Speaker 6 (01:08:03):
Okay, so we're going back to Rampart.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
We're going to say the Strike Team.

Speaker 4 (01:08:09):
So the Strike Team is what though? The strike tea
lots of cocaine. Okay, So the.

Speaker 3 (01:08:15):
Story that Courtney is telling, they're all on this crash
team as part of the lap D and there's drugs
in the shield. They're called the Strike Team. So it's
very parallel.

Speaker 6 (01:08:26):
Yes, And the goal of this unit, they were Special Unit,
and the whole goal was to arrest gang members by
any means necessary. And that went just wildly off the rails.
They were literally acted completely outside the law doing what
was that, you know, murdering, stealing banks?

Speaker 5 (01:08:45):
Terrible.

Speaker 3 (01:08:47):
Yeah, And they had so much power, right, I mean right,
they were given so much authority to clean up the
streets that they just kind of ran with it.

Speaker 6 (01:08:55):
Exactly right, Body and Cloud, I mean they were right.

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):
The crash off.

Speaker 6 (01:09:00):
They would celebrate shootings, they would get plaques, they would
they would carry spare guns around on the regular in
order to plant them on suspects.

Speaker 5 (01:09:09):
Oh yeah, wow.

Speaker 6 (01:09:11):
So they were constantly planting yes, wow, absolutely, And they
were constantly stealing from the gang members that they were
supposed to be arresting, stealing and dealing as well as
stealing and dealing with prostitutes.

Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
Like guns, drugs, prostitutes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
Everything.

Speaker 3 (01:09:30):
Yeah, they were. They were absolute criminals, one hundred percent.

Speaker 5 (01:09:33):
Wowow. So you wonder why there's this fear within that
community of the police and you see this kind of
you know, this kind of craziness happening, and it makes
you think, I don't trust any of you. So, but
you keep going. I'm sorry.

Speaker 6 (01:09:46):
Yeah, they did unconscionable things. Ultimately, the scandal resulted in
over one hundred and forty civil lawsuits against the City
of Los Angeles. These settlements estimated one hundred and twenty
five million. This crash team and one hundred and six
criminal convictions were overturned due to falsified evidence or perjury.

Speaker 9 (01:10:10):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
Let that sinka.

Speaker 6 (01:10:11):
In over a hundred wow, people were innocently perjured.

Speaker 4 (01:10:17):
Are you kidding.

Speaker 3 (01:10:18):
Yes, And at the same time, there was like a
ten year backlog of rape kits that were uh thousands,
thousands of untested rape kits at in evidence at the LAPD.
They just weren't testing. So all this is happening in
LA at the same time. Anyway, it's unrelated to your story,

(01:10:40):
core ass. It reminded me of all the rape kits.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
Can we get back to the rape kits being untested
for that long of a time?

Speaker 6 (01:10:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
Too, Like that's also something to.

Speaker 3 (01:10:48):
Stockbacklog dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
Is that the thing?

Speaker 3 (01:10:51):
Is that backlog still happening? Sorry, no, it hasn't say
but this was at night the night. Yeah, this is
a long time ago. This is like, wow, the late nineties.

Speaker 6 (01:10:59):
Yeah, yeah, the whole all of Los Angeles or a
lot of Los Angeles policing was terrible, and then ultimately
it did cause an overhaul completely.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
And there were probably some great cops even back then.
But now you're getting overshadowed by these crappy stories of
injustice and how could you not be infuriated if you're
hearing this stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:11:25):
Terrible the fear of.

Speaker 2 (01:11:30):
You know exactly, oh yeah, exactly. We just even in
the military, I mean again exactly, Yes.

Speaker 6 (01:11:37):
Yeah, I mean they were treated I mean again, anyone
who's seen the Shield you don't have to have but
in this shield, they were just treated as kind of
rock stars and they simply did whatever they wanted to
do and steal, you know, and stole and shot.

Speaker 3 (01:11:56):
Like dealt guns and I mean yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:11:59):
Absolutely they were the worst gang members there were. So
there's also a notorious big connection.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
We can skip over that and do it another time. No,
the notorious big thing we should also get back to
in a very meaningful way because again that you have murder, yeah,
because he's coming up for trial. You know, there's so
many things were happening across that intersection, and that does
kind of include Diddy, Like, did you should discuss that

(01:12:28):
in a bigger way? Why do we do that?

Speaker 5 (01:12:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:12:30):
Okay, it's a whole day. Sorry Courtney, I keep de
railing you. I apologize.

Speaker 6 (01:12:33):
No, this is my seat though, a lot of a
lot of tentacles to this. So that's anyway, the injustice
you can see, it's one hundred and forty lawsuits, it's people.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
Killed, one hundred and forty lawsuits.

Speaker 6 (01:12:47):
Yeah, and one hundred and twenty five million dollars paid out. Luckily,
reforms have been put in and you know things have
changed for the better. This is true crime tonight. We
hope you're life is changing for the better. We've been
talking about the rampart scandal. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
Eight at eight to three to one Crime and now

(01:13:08):
body Yeah, Central Park five.

Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
This is another story that happened around well a few
years prior to the rampart but this happened in nineteen
eighty nine. I'm going to give a quick synopsis of
the story and then I'll get into the details. So
April nineteenth, nineteen eighty nine, a twenty six year old
white woman, Tricia Melli Mayley Sorry, was brutally attacked while

(01:13:32):
jogging in Central Park. Five teens were arrested and coerced
by policed into confessing to the attack, despite DNA evidence
excluding them. Teens were convicted and sentenced to five to
ten years or sorry five to fifteen years, spending their
formative years in prison under wrongful convictions. In two thousand

(01:13:53):
and two, serial rapist Mattias Reyis confessed to the crime.
DNA confirmed sole involvement and the convictions were vacated eventually
a lot I can't speak, eventually, leading to a forty
one million dollars settlement. So here's what happened again. It
was nineteen eighty nine in the springtime. You know, people

(01:14:15):
are out there, you know, at the park. Several groups
of teenagers entered the northern end of the Central Park
in Manhattan, where a series of assaults took place. There
were some harassment incidents and attempted robberies that occurred between
nine and ten pm. Okay, around the same time, twenty
eight year old jogger Tricia Mayley was attacked, beaten, raped,

(01:14:40):
and left unconscious in a remote wooded area of the park.
She was discovered around one thirty am in critical condition.
And at this time, crime in New York was at
its peak. You know, it was a lot late nineteen
eighties and early nineties, leading to like a lot of
additional pressure on police to find who was responsible. This

(01:15:01):
was a record time in the city's history. The just
the prior year in nineteen eighty eight, there were there
were eighteen hundred and ninety six homicides, which was a record.

Speaker 5 (01:15:10):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:15:11):
So they're coming up this really big crime spree. This
attack had just happened. There was a lot of pressure
to get this solved. So police responding to reports of
the other group, right that was like doing some harassing
and whatnot. Included Raymond Santana who was fourteen, Keith Richardson
who was fourteen, and there were some other teens too,

(01:15:33):
Antron McKay fifteen, Yusef Salam he was fifteen, and Corey
Wise who was sixteen. They were brought in for questioning. Right,
they were babies. They were babies, but they were up
to you know, they were doing they.

Speaker 4 (01:15:47):
Were like up trouble yep.

Speaker 3 (01:15:49):
So after a very long interrogation, detectives obtained statements from
five of those teenagers describing involvements in the attack on
the jogger. The teens later arecann't it's saying that their
confessions were made under duress, right, And there was this
big ad taken out by Donald Trump. And I'm sure
you guys remember this ad, Yes, I think you know,

(01:16:10):
the Central Park ad saying that you know, bring back
the death penalty and bring back our police. And it
was directed at the Central Park five and they were convicted.
DNA testing concluded at the time that they found cemen
but they didn't match any of the five of the teens,
but prosecutors proceeded. Again, they were under enormous stress. This
is not excusing them, by the way.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
No, but it also does show the witch hunt of
it because there is a ton of pressure on prosecutors
to convict because they want the cities to be safe.

Speaker 3 (01:16:41):
Absolutely, that's a big policy. It's politics, right, right, it's
one hundred percent. So the sentences ranged from five to
fifteen years, with four serving time in juvenile facilities and
Corey Wise, who was the oldest, serving most of his
sentence in an adult prison. It's I mean, and there's
a really good documentary on Netflix about this, and it's

(01:17:02):
called I believe it's called The Central Park five. Yeah,
and it's it's excellent. It's very well. Please check it out.

Speaker 6 (01:17:08):
Well, listen, stick around. We have a ton more to
dig into. We have a bunch of talkbacks to get
to and keep it here. True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:17:29):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been
talking true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with
Courtney and Body and Man were already in the we
are in the last segment.

Speaker 4 (01:17:40):
How does that happen.

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):
By the way, if you've missed any of the show,
you can always catch it right after as a podcast.
Please do. And even if you're listening as a podcast,
you can always leave a talkback.

Speaker 4 (01:17:50):
Just call either eight at eight.

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):
Three one crime and you can basically leave a voicemail
and we'll play it on the show, or you can
leave a talkback by downloading the iHeartRadio app. It's totally free.
Top right hand corner. There's a little microphone. Push that microphone,
leave us a message and then we will play it
on the show, which we love. So buddy, you've had

(01:18:13):
us knee deep in such a such an important case,
so thank you for shedding light.

Speaker 3 (01:18:18):
If you're just joining us, I'm just going to summarize
it really quickly and then final thoughts. So April nineteenth,
nineteen eighty nine, twenty six year old white woman Tricia
Mayley was brutally attacked while jogging in Central Park. Five
teens were arrested and coerced by police into confessing to
the attack, despite DNA evidence excluding them. They were all

(01:18:40):
convicted and sentenced to five to fifteen years in prison,
depending on what happened and spending their formative years in
prison under wrongful convictions. In two thousand and two, serial
rapist Mattias Reus confessed. DNA confirmed his sole involvement in
the convictions were vacated. Okay, so I just to kind

(01:19:00):
of talk about, you know, the aftermath just very quickly.
In two thousand and two, like I said, the serial
rapists confessed. In two thousand and one, Mattias Reus met
Corey Wise when they were held at the Auburn Correction
Facility in upstate New York. He reportedly said that he
confessed because it was the right thing to do. So

(01:19:20):
the real rapist is in prison, right and he meets
the guy that you know is serving what his and
I think that was yeah, And I think that was
kind of like his watershed moment where he's like, I
got to do the right thing and tell him it
was me. Yeah, So that's kind of wild. A reinvestigation

(01:19:41):
by the Manhattan District Attorney concluded that Mattias Reys acted
alone and that the prior convictions were totally unsupported by
their verified evidence, and all convictions were vacated. The men
now they're known as the exonerated five. You might have
seen them, you know in news clippings and whatnot. They
filed a civil la all suit against the state or

(01:20:01):
the city, I'm sorry, the City of New York for
malicious prosecution, racial discrimination, and emotional distress. City officials fought
the case, obviously, for more than a decade. This went
on before finally settling for forty one million dollars. And
this is the best, this is the best news. One
of the guys, one of the kids who went to

(01:20:22):
prison for this, Yusuf Salem, is currently serving as a
member of the New York City Council. He represents the
city's ninth council district since twenty twenty four.

Speaker 1 (01:20:33):
Well is.

Speaker 2 (01:20:37):
Deeply wonderful.

Speaker 3 (01:20:38):
Yeah, it's a good it's I mean, listen, nothing's going
to get those years back. No, but he look at him,
he's a city councilman. That's pretty for New York City.
And that's a kind of a deal, right.

Speaker 2 (01:20:48):
Yeah, it's a very.

Speaker 5 (01:20:49):
Big that's phenomenal chills as you were going on that
like change that his life has gone through. But yeah,
that I should have looked this up. Forty one million
is divided amongst each of them, I believe, so so yeah,
so I don't know how much would make up for
that much of your life that you've lost, which also

(01:21:10):
one of my biggest fears. It's like to be wrongfully convicted.

Speaker 3 (01:21:13):
But could you imagine?

Speaker 5 (01:21:15):
Oh that's all. Yeah, sometimes I keep me up at
night thinking like anyway, but this one turned out.

Speaker 2 (01:21:22):
We would never let that happen. Yeah, it would be
over my dead Boddy. But by the way, if you
got Shawshank Redemption the Fugitive, Like, there are so many
movies that are embedded in our hearts that, of course,
how could you not be afraid? Everybody is? I am too.

Speaker 5 (01:21:42):
Yeah, I can imagine that's everyone's.

Speaker 3 (01:21:44):
But you know what kind of scares me? Can I
can we go off for you a little bit?

Speaker 5 (01:21:48):
Please?

Speaker 3 (01:21:50):
And getting convicted of a crime? AI so like I okay,
So I was messing around during Halloween with AI creating
like cute Halloween movies and stuff like that, and it
really looked like me. I was like, that looks like me.
That looks like me walking around And they can make
AI almost do anything. Like who's to say somebody doesn't

(01:22:11):
make an AI video of like Stephanie robbing a bank
or something.

Speaker 2 (01:22:14):
No, they will. That is a fact. I mean, like,
let's be real, I don't want to put it out there,
but in reality, there is so much found footage. We're
seeing body cam footage, and I don't want to underestimate
the importance of it because it's such a big piece
of the puzzle of the cases that we follow daily.
But fast forward to a different time when AI is

(01:22:35):
so readily available that yet you can have ring camera
footage or surveillance footage or just streamed footage that would
tie somebody to a crime, And how do you know
that that's not AI generated.

Speaker 3 (01:22:51):
And they only need like.

Speaker 5 (01:22:55):
You can do it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:58):
Definitely, Yeah, I would look at me, I'm here eating
a cheeseburger at in and Out, you know, like you
could do the exact same thing, right, true opposite lands.

Speaker 5 (01:23:08):
I'm hopeful that they have some sort of system that
they can look at that too.

Speaker 3 (01:23:13):
There has to be metadata, well, let's talk about metadata, Like, honestly,
there has to be metadata that body only you would
know that will at some point get us to a
place that we can better understand what is real and
what is not and things that are time stamped or
you say metadata to us all the time, and I

(01:23:34):
totally get it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
Because I've learned from you, but I still kind of
don't one hundred percent get it.

Speaker 3 (01:23:40):
Metadata, I think. Okay, let really simple terms. Think about
a book. You get a book, they were just books,
and you open the book and there's a table of contents, right, Yes,
that's metadata. It's data about data, Okay, So it tells
you this chapter is on page twelve, and you know
this this chapter about that, so you know you go

(01:24:01):
to page twelve. That's metadata.

Speaker 2 (01:24:03):
So it's good. So I post a photo, though, I
post a photo, which I barely do anymore because you've
all freaked me out so much. So I and by
the way, I used to post a photo every second
of every minute. So I post a photo and somebody
clicks on it, there's info unbeknownst to me or any

(01:24:25):
of us for that matter, that.

Speaker 4 (01:24:27):
There's metadata attached to that, which is.

Speaker 2 (01:24:29):
Really important when solving a crime. On a lighter front,
kind of annoying if you're a regular person, you don't
want your whereabouts, time of day, and anything and everything revealed.

Speaker 4 (01:24:41):
Yeah, Like I have one.

Speaker 6 (01:24:43):
There's literally one suspicious person in my life, and it
would text me a picture. I would save it because
very often that body's nodding her head. Very often I'd
be like, this wasn't taken now, or when you said
it was.

Speaker 5 (01:24:59):
Stop, it would come up.

Speaker 4 (01:25:02):
What have you called them out on this? No, I keep.

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):
Courtney's building a case I would have that would be
yelling at him. I would be screaming that within ten seconds.
I couldn't keep that to myself. But by the way,
I've had girlfriends. One particular is coming to mind who
her boyfriend at the time was like, oh, yeah, it's
so nice, I'm here with my kids, and then she
did the metadata and it was like, here with my

(01:25:31):
kids two months ago.

Speaker 6 (01:25:32):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:25:33):
It wasn't exactly. It wasn't exactly at that moment, right.

Speaker 3 (01:25:39):
So what you guys were talking about is the embedded
text and what not on pictures you take with your phone,
and that's obviously that's metadata, but that's specifically exit data.
But ext of data is part of metadata. And by
the way, we're going to be going over this on Sunday,
I'm going to be doing a whole breakdown of metadata
and whatnot for our crime lab. But because it's to

(01:26:00):
be me, I'm going to be doing crime Live.

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
Policy need to sound effects.

Speaker 5 (01:26:05):
Right ready for this.

Speaker 3 (01:26:07):
So what they're talking about is you know, like, okay,
so you have your iPhone right and you know what
you're gallery and you're scrolling and you know if you
when you're scrolling, it has like the month you took it. Well,
that's it's organized because it's using the metadata on those
pictures that you've taken to organize your gallery. That's metadata.
And so what Courtney's and Stephanie you are talking about

(01:26:28):
is they get these text messages and it's a picture.
You can save it and then like long press hold it,
go to info and see that metadata. Okay, and you.

Speaker 4 (01:26:38):
Can see not good.

Speaker 5 (01:26:42):
You know what.

Speaker 3 (01:26:42):
It's important too, especially if you get text from your
loved ones and stuff like you're a significant other and
they're like, I'm just lounging. It's like a picture. View
the live picture. Definitely view the live picture because oftentimes
you'll catch things that you are we're not supposed to
be shown.

Speaker 2 (01:26:59):
So those live and that's how like Facebook and Instagram
obviously like do like a little like album or they're
like this is through the years, like how do they
know what they use exactly?

Speaker 3 (01:27:11):
Or your trip to Cancun, you know what I mean,
like those kinds of things, but it is important to know,
like when you upload photos to Facebook or you know,
Instagram or you know, whatever social media platform you're on,
it does strip that made it metadata, so that like
I can't go to Courtney's Instagram and like save her photos.

(01:27:31):
I'm not going to get her metadata. It's gone. But
it does use it when you upload, so it let's say,
let's say Courtney, you're at Caesar's Palace in Las.

Speaker 4 (01:27:40):
Vegas and you take a much joys Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:27:42):
Yeah, right, you know you're high rolling, you know, you're
doing your thing, and you take a picture, you upload
it and it tags you know, Caesar's Palace, Las Vegas,
and it knows that because of the location data that's
embedded in those photographs. But it doesn't it doesn't save
that to the photo when it gets uploaded, but it
a tag that your you know your location when you
uppose to be careful of those things.

Speaker 5 (01:28:04):
I loved anyway, know, I first learned about that from
Donuf with Cats when there was a photo that I
had never heard about that until I saw that, Oh wow,
they can tell where that apartment building is. So yeah, anyway,
but that was that. That's that's what I'm looking forward
to you, I know, but that sadly I learned about
it that first time I watched that episode. But I

(01:28:24):
think that's going to be a really interesting thing to
talk about it.

Speaker 3 (01:28:26):
Yeah, so we're going to talk about metadata and oh
in the cases that it solved, like BTK and Joey
Arius remember Jody Arius? Yeah in that case. Yeah, we're
in in whatnot and how metadata kind of gave us
the timeline of you know, the tragic death of Travis Alexander.
So we're gonna we're going to go over all of
that and why metadata is important, why you should know

(01:28:48):
about it, how to look for it, where to find it,
because even in documents you type, like you know, your
word documents at work, your Excel documents, all that has metadata,
your pds, everything, it all helps.

Speaker 2 (01:28:59):
I am so for this because I please show me.

Speaker 5 (01:29:02):
Also, how is there a way to remove any of
that save that for the show? If there is? But
I would love to teach people maybe if you don't
want people to know, I'm currently not where I'm saying.
I am like, if you want.

Speaker 3 (01:29:12):
To, okay, I can cover that.

Speaker 2 (01:29:14):
What do you guys think about people wanting to share
locations that are not parents and.

Speaker 3 (01:29:20):
Children and like your friends and stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:29:22):
Listen, okay, not your.

Speaker 2 (01:29:24):
Husbands, not your husband or your wife, or your significant
other whenever your you know, sex preference is, or your kids.
So taking that aside. Okay, okay, maybe a casual somebody
you're casually dating or casual people.

Speaker 5 (01:29:43):
Yes, I mean location.

Speaker 6 (01:29:45):
I heard pass on all of the aside from the
custodian and child relationship. That's I stop there. In my mind,
I think it. I don't know what I'm a and
I'm not.

Speaker 2 (01:30:02):
Even location share. I don't mean like, hey, in this
exact moment, I'm here. It's like, what is it when
you share where you're ways going?

Speaker 3 (01:30:09):
I have several people on my that have my location,
and I have several people's location, and I listen. My
favorite thing to do is to sit in bed and
like watch them. It's like watching myself.

Speaker 4 (01:30:20):
See that's the problem.

Speaker 3 (01:30:22):
Oh, I love it.

Speaker 4 (01:30:23):
Body moving.

Speaker 2 (01:30:23):
Okay, let's I'm going to share mine with you very
very okay. So wait, so like, well, you keep me safe,
but like at the same time, I also when other
people say that I'm like red Flag Central. I oh,
I love it think it's like a red flag.

Speaker 3 (01:30:36):
I don't spy on my friends or anything like that,
but I just like to watch them doing their errands
and that she's at kmart, Okay, she's driving home from work,
she's over here. Everybody's safe, everybody's good.

Speaker 5 (01:30:46):
Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:30:47):
It's my worst nightmare on every side of that scenario.

Speaker 5 (01:30:53):
I don't know if I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:30:53):
Love it either.

Speaker 5 (01:30:55):
Wow, going in and out of basket forever in basket robins,
Well have.

Speaker 3 (01:31:05):
My location they you know from Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:09):
I always embarrassed how little my location changes, Like.

Speaker 4 (01:31:13):
What a loser to room to room for you? Literally,
I'm just like, I'm at work all day, all.

Speaker 2 (01:31:21):
Night, Like it's so pathetic so that I would feel
like I need to jush it up a little bit
so making a.

Speaker 4 (01:31:26):
Bit more fun.

Speaker 3 (01:31:27):
Andy will be like, are you gonna leave your house today?

Speaker 5 (01:31:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:31:31):
I'm getting a lot time.

Speaker 2 (01:31:32):
But you know, it's a little bit of a red
flag to me. I don't love it when people love
it automatically start sharing with like somebody there casually know,
started dating somebody and they're already sharing, And I'm like that.

Speaker 4 (01:31:44):
I don't love that.

Speaker 3 (01:31:45):
I don't love that it feels weird people close to me.
You know, I don't have children, so I don't you
know whatever. But people close to me have my location
and I have theirs, and it's it's just, you know,
I like to just and I really do. I sit
in bed and I look. Everybody home, everybody's safe, what's
everybody doing?

Speaker 5 (01:32:03):
So funny?

Speaker 2 (01:32:04):
Actually I share location with a few people, but I
never look.

Speaker 4 (01:32:08):
Oh I literally never ever ever look.

Speaker 2 (01:32:11):
If they were lost, I would of course look if
I was concerned for their safety. Obviously I'm the first
person to look. But I am the worst snoop. I
I literally never look. I look every day. It's just
like a ritual, and I just I just everybody's tucked in.
I know everybody's good. Okay, you know, time to go
to back.

Speaker 4 (01:32:30):
Oh that's so cute.

Speaker 2 (01:32:31):
I I mean, I should look right now. If everyone's
tucked in, I feel like I almost feel like it's
spying a little bit, like I shouldn't know if they're
tucked in. I hope they're I hope they're gallivanting and out.
In a doubt, they're out and about doing something for COCXA.

Speaker 4 (01:32:47):
I'm not sure I should know if that's the case.

Speaker 5 (01:32:50):
That's so funny.

Speaker 4 (01:32:52):
I love you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:32:53):
Listen, we survived a very long, important week, so Hi five.
We didn't say the word Epstein one time to night,
so cue the cue, the smoke machine and the bells.

Speaker 4 (01:33:04):
Thank you for the talkbacks. We love you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:33:06):
We'll be back on Sunday for a body's crime lab.
Be with us, Stay safe, We'll see you in a
few days.

Speaker 4 (01:33:13):
Good night.