Travis Decker Declared Dead, Diddy Preps for Sentencing, and Karen Read Back in Court

HUGE updates in the Travis Decker case. More details on the cases of Luigi Mangione, Sean “Diddy” Combs, Karen Read, and Sarah Grace Patrick. Plus, the shocking case of Cari Farver, as featured in Netflix’s Lover, Stalker, Killer, for this week’s True Crime and Chill. Tune in for all the details.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lai Decker here with
Courtney Armstrong and Body Move in. It is Wednesday, September
twenty fourth, and we have a stack night of headlines.
Travis Decker declared dead by US Marshals.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Also this big warning from.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
The judge and the Luigi Mange Oanne case Karen Reid,
she's actually back in court and Diddy is urging for
a full release. Plus, don't forget true crime and Chill Lover,
Stalker Killer. We're discussing that and so much more tonight.
Courtney Armstrong, where should we begin?

Speaker 4 (00:57):
So I wanted to get in. We have been covering
this since the very beginning. Travis Decker. So, Stephanie, as
you said, the federal prosecutors have moved to dismiss the
arrest warrant. US Marshal Services have declared him dead. However,
in this little nuanced full DNA confirmation based on the

(01:18):
bone analysis is still pending.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
Oh yeah, so Travis Decker.

Speaker 4 (01:24):
Of course, he was the subject of a national manhunt,
and he has been accused of murdering his three young daughters,
all under the age of ten. And this happened back
on June second at a really remote Washington campground. And
there have been marshals and many many different agencies that

(01:45):
have you know, come to to get this to where
it is today.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
So the marshals must be pretty you know, I'm a
big fan of the marshals, right they do. I think
they do an incredible job. Yes, I mean, they really do.
And you know, they must be pretty convinced it's him
then though, right to gore ahead and declare him dead.

Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yes, there is a lot all evidence is pointing that way.
So there's been a federal motion to dismiss the arrest warrant.
The human remains that were found, which we reported on
earlier in the week, are believed to be Deckers. Those
were discovered, excuse me, on September eighteenth, right near the
Rock Island campground. It was only zero point seventy four

(02:28):
miles from the original crime scene. Close, are you, Yes,
it was three quarters of a mile away, but it
wasn't over four thousand feet elevation, heavily wooded terrain steep complicated.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
Wow, that close. I wonder if they're going to tell
us like how he died, because remember, Courtney, there was
that handprint or something in blood that's right near his truck.
And I wonder if he, you know, did something to
himself and then was kind of stumbling around and maybe
made his way hop over to where he you know,
succumbed maybe to his injuries.

Speaker 4 (03:03):
Mm hmm, yeah, I mean I imagine that will come
to bear. Although if it's only bones, I don't know
what the autopsy, you know, unless something happened to his
physical bones, assuming.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
Of course these are his.

Speaker 4 (03:18):
But the reason to believe listen the Sheleyan County Sheriff
Mike Morrison, who is, by the way, just a brilliant presence,
as he has been giving updates throughout this whole thing.
Oh God, so good, right, just measured and calm, so
he's emphasized the charges. The charges will remain active until
the bone confirmation is received. However, the clothing that was

(03:45):
on the remains, those have been confirmed to belong to
Decker via DNA.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
Oh really, so they had the okay, so they tested
both tested the clothes and then they tested the bones.
I wonder differences if we have the clothes results back,
what's different with the bones?

Speaker 5 (04:07):
Like?

Speaker 3 (04:07):
Are they different like tests? I' you know what we
should ask, Joseph on.

Speaker 4 (04:11):
We should ask, yeah, forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan, we should.
But I'd have to imagine there would be different tests. Absolutely,
whether it be hair or fingernails or touch or blood,
all of it would be different. So the again, the
clothing found on the remains does match his DNA, so

(04:32):
it would be so unlikely. It would mean he lost
or took off his clothes, somebody else to put those
clothes back on, and then they died.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
It has to be him, right, it has to be him.
And I'm assuming that that, you know, again, big fan
of the US Marshals here, you know, I'm assuming that
they they're probably like, hey, listen, the clothes the guy
was wearing matches Travis Decker's DNA. It's safe to go
ahead and conclude. And I saw the order from you know,

(05:02):
the court today that the US Marshals are declaring him well,
declaring him dead. It's basically saying, there's no need to
charge anymore. But you know, Travis Decker is these are
probably his remains.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
Wow, I think our heart too, so goes out to
his ex wife, right, So let's remember, you know, Travis Decker,
We've been covering this story from day one. You know,
this has been going on for such a long time.
And I think about it, and you know, Whitney Decker,
his ex wife and the mother of these three beautiful daughters.

(05:33):
You know, our hearts go out to her because that
was a very tricky situation she had.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
She had full custody of these girls.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
And you'll remember Travis as a father, was kind of
outside of their parenting plan. He was living outside of
his truck. You know, she had made some real cries
for help, basically saying that he wasn't really meeting up
to his obligations and was suffering from borderline personality disorder
which very very it may be PTSD from some time

(06:02):
served I think earlier in the military. And I can't
imagine a harder scenario, the worst case ending for a
mother who was really trying to do the right thing
on every level, Like she asked for help, she kept
her the father of her children included in her daughter's lives,
even though she had full custody, which you know takes

(06:24):
a lot of work for her, and it's a real
devastator and here she is just having to pick up
the pieces.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
It's really unimaginable. It is unimaginable. And you know, she's
not going to get any answers. And you listen, not
that any answers are going to make any of this
any better for her, right sure, she suffered an unimaginable loss,
including him, right, like, yes, exactly, you know, so she's
not going to get any answers. And my heart, that
was the first thing I thought of today when I

(06:50):
read the order, was, Oh, she's not going to get
any answers. But then you know, I'm like, it's not
going to make it any easier for her, you know.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
It's not. I don't know, you know, we talked a
lot about yeah, grace and grief. Right if you've ever
had the moment to look at her eulogy that she
gave for her three daughters so quickly after this incident
when her ex was being was he a suspect at
that point, yes, And she did not have answers and
she's laying her beautiful babies to rest. And how she

(07:20):
found the wherewithal and the courage and the strength and
the words to be able to you know, speak so eloquently.
It is.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
It's a real testament to the human spirit, right, it
really is.

Speaker 4 (07:33):
I mean there is no loss like your three children,
so hopefully some sense of peace that maybe at least
you know, it's not daily or weekly reports from from officials, right,
So we're wishing her well.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
I guess is the best the best.

Speaker 4 (07:55):
So you know, we'll keep you updated as things are
absolutely finalized.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
This is a true crime tonight. We are on iHeartRadio.

Speaker 4 (08:02):
I'm Courtney Armstrong, lucky enough to be here with Body
Movin and Stephanie Lydecker. We just finished talking about Travis
Decker who again has his remains have been found. We
want to hear your thoughts on this or anything in
the news eighted eight three one crime or you can
always get us on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app

(08:22):
upper right hand corner of the app. Click on the
microphone and leave a message and boom you are on
the show. But now, yes, now, I would love to
hear what is up with Luigi Mangione.

Speaker 3 (08:35):
Oh, Luigi, Luigi. The drama never ends with Luigi. So
a federal judge has warned the Department of Justice that
repeated public comments by senior level officials about Luigi Maanjioon's
guilt might violate court rules and jeopardize his right to
a fair trial, especially as the defense moves to block

(08:57):
the death penalty. As you remember, Eg Mandion, he's twenty seven.
He stands accused of, you know, shooting United Healthcare CEO
Brian Thompson on the streets of New York City during
a public event in Manhattan on December fourth of twenty
twenty four. And remember he printed this gun he left
up behind this backpack full of monopoly money, the manifesto

(09:22):
in you know, the engravings on the bullets to the
dry defend depos It was just this crazy, like what
is going on kind of case. Well, since then he
has been charged federally and at the state level as well,
but the state of New York does not have the
death penalty, so the federal charges include the death penalty,

(09:47):
and the defense has been trying to get that removed
from the table before the trial begins. And one of
the things that they're citing is that officials are making
really prejudicial comments about his guilt and possible motive before
the trial even begins. And it you know, goes as
high as you know, President Trump. So the judge today

(10:08):
said that the DOJ officials Chad gil Martin and brian
Neevies might have violated local criminal Rule twenty three dot
one and a prior court order by reposting President Trump's
claims about Luigi's guilt. The repost of content is there was.
Donald Trump went on TV and commented that Luigi Manngione

(10:29):
shot someone in the back instantly dead. That that was
that's the quote, and that was retweeted by the DOJ.
Deputy director Gil Martin endorsed on X and he said,
potus is absolutely right. And you know, again this is
you know, the defense is saying this is prejudicial, and

(10:50):
you know you're tainting the jury pool and you're getting
it in everybody's head, you know, from the highest office
in the land really that you know, you can't do this.
And the judge kind of agreed, but the judge has
it ruled. She's just saying stop it.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
She's giving a warning, I come about or cry, and
it's a really complicated thing and it has I try
to stir it up in my head. On the one hand,
I can't see the point innocent until proven guilty, because
we're talking about optics right now, right and we're talking about,
you know, burdening a jury to you know, ignore what
they may have heard in the present in the media

(11:25):
and the purp walk. We talked a little bit about
that last night as well. That's gotten some play, the
fact that Luigi Mangione was kind of delivered in front
of the media in that you know, yeah, he's in
shackles now. I see alside said this one, but it
does speak to optics, and I'm curious what your thoughts
are because optics are a big piece of the equation.

(11:47):
Right we're talking about Ditty tonight. We know there were
optics to P Diddy going to court looking elderly and
like a little old man in a sweater with his bible,
his bible, or you know, as defendants are being presented
before a jury in the media, oftentimes there's real consideration
and by oftentimes I think pretty much always consideration about

(12:10):
how they appear. Are they wearing stripes and looking like
a criminal or are they in a jacket in tie?
And it's just an interesting conversation because in this case, yeah,
the death sentence is a real one. Their lawyers are
death sentence lawyers. Their job is to get him free.
And at the same time, here he was allegedly on

(12:33):
camera shooting a man in cold blood.

Speaker 4 (12:36):
It's interesting that the retweeting in and of itself isn't
well a.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
Right, And I think it's the added comments, like the
you know, potus is exactly right, you know, and the
judge basically warned that, you know, she's going to take
these into consideration when she decides to rule on the
defense's motion to dismiss the death penalty, So there's no
TakeBack on that, like she's already going to possibly consider

(13:02):
those comments when looking at this motion to dismiss.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
And what would have been better, because again I don't
think this is even a conversation about guilt or innocence, right,
in some ways, we have seen this man on camera
allegedly shoot somebody in cold blood, So you know, of
all cases allegedly, this one kind of falls in this
like very horrible gray area.

Speaker 3 (13:25):
What would have been better? Is it if this is.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
The person then they're getting the death penalty.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
Right, that's a good question. What would have been more
appropriate for the President of the United States to say? Correct?

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Because it was a very heated time and familiar as
it is right now, we're all living it like right,
it was a really hot time. We were all extremely,
extremely distraught when that happens.

Speaker 3 (13:49):
Well, the judge has ordered the DOJ to submit a
sworn declaration by October third, detailing how these apparent violations
occurred and how they plan to prevent future breaches. Now,
I think that's going to have a lot of play.
I think how they plan to prevent is going to
really weigh in the judge's mind when she's looking at
this motion to dismiss the death penalty. I think if

(14:10):
she's satisfied with their plan moving forward, you know, it
might negate any negative impacts that have been made thus far.
You know, we're gonna to wait and see. But yeah,
she wasn't happy.

Speaker 4 (14:21):
She wasn't we I think a warning is the right thing,
to just be a little measured and take a beat
and say I tolerate this, and you know, as you said,
we'll see how the plan is received. Well, we will
stay on this for sure. When we come back, Karen
Reid is back in the courtroom. We also have new

(14:41):
developments in the trial of accused Long Island.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
Serial killer Rex Huerman to cover.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
And also we have True Crime and Chill where we
are talking lover stalker, Killer. Keep it here True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker, Hi, head
of KAT Studios where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries.
Please check out in Cells out today and as well
as The Idaho Massacre season three also out, So we
really thank you for listening. I'm here of course with

(15:27):
Body Movin and Courtney Armstrong and man, there's a lot
in the headlines right now, so we're going to speed
talk a little bit because we're really going to try
to get through it all. Karen Reid back in court.
Did he do back in court? We're going to unpack
it all.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
But first let's go toward talk about.

Speaker 5 (15:44):
Hi ladyes Leah in Australia, just on the David case
and Celestia. The thing that I find the strangest is
that if she had been dead for as long as
is suggested, would he not have noticed that she was
not around or not responding, etc. Even if he was
on tour. I feel like, you know, there's a bit

(16:06):
of a gap there in terms of what he did
or didn't know, even if he wasn't involved.

Speaker 4 (16:11):
A great point, I mean, one more question to add
to the absolute multitude of questions surrounding this case. And
of course our Australian friend is referring to Celes Reevas Hernandez.
She's a fifteen year old girl or fourteen, depending upon
the birthday and death date, who was found in the

(16:31):
front trunk of singer David's tesla who has been on tour.
So we know that Seles Reevas was in his car.
The autopsy results are still not in and this has
still not been deemed a homicide.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
How is that possible? It does seem as though it's
pretty shocking that there have not been more new developments
in this case.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
I think they're going to be waiting on talks. I
think we might be waiting a minute.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
A minute.

Speaker 3 (16:58):
I think toxology report, I think that's going to play
a role here. I'm not saying that she was a
drug addict or anything like that. Please don't mistake me.
But I do think that that's going to play a
role in this, and I think that they're waiting for that.
I think it's possible there's no obvious maybe manner of death,
and so they're going to be exhausting all of the

(17:19):
technology available to determine what happened to Porcelust. And again,
you know, she was just a little girl. We have
to remember that, Like, it's so hard remember timeline a
little hard on the timeline.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
My line is rough, so.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
And we don't even know the last time she was seen, right,
we just don't.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
We're talking like eleven, twenty fo years old is alleged
right now, reportedly is when she met this said boyfriend,
David et cetera. And again, charges have not been filed
against David the pop singer, although he has canceled his tour.
If he is being wrongfully associated with this case simply
by the fact that it's his car and it's inaccurate,

(17:58):
that is really rough, hard thing to come back for.

Speaker 3 (18:01):
So we all have to keep an open mind.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
However, you know, Celeste's brother has come out publicly and
her mother saying that they were concerned about a troubled
boyfriend she had named David, And that's concerning, but it's
the timeline, like she is eleven, twelve, thirteen years old,
and there is a report that she had left, and
then they summoned her, right, and then brought her home and.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
The teacher, her teacher said that she went to LA
to be with some singer. Correct, So it does all
point to David. And it's hard to not look at him, right,
it's hard not to look at him and not hard
not to consider him a suspect. And at the very
least in you know, of grooming, right, or predatory behavior

(18:46):
with a little girl. You know, where's mom?

Speaker 2 (18:49):
Where's mom? Where's mom? And brother?

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Of course, of course let's start there.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
Of course, I guess my question larger question, and you know,
if anyone has any information, or if they even want
to join the conversation, what happens at thirteen that your
daughter goes to Los Angeles to be with a singer
that's like underage and why is she not in school?
And that's a tough one also because in and of itself,

(19:17):
that is taking your your hand off the wheel a.

Speaker 3 (19:20):
Little bit, if that's how this plays out.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
So it's really controversial. It's hard stuff. It's hard on
every side.

Speaker 4 (19:27):
It's controversial, and it also it is complicated because, as
you said, there is a little bit of a dearth
of information of what was going on. And we do
know that in April of twenty twenty four, there was
a missing person's alert put out. That's a long time,
it's what seventeen months or something.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
But thenn't they know where she was if at some
point she had traveled to a different city to be
with the music guy, would it like, you know, apples
to apples, And again, this is not coming from a
place of judgment. We're learning real time and unpacking alongside
of everyone.

Speaker 6 (20:00):
You know, the.

Speaker 3 (20:00):
Information is really murky. So yeah, it has been talked
about that she did know where Celeste was and even
got LAPD involved and they basically knocked on the door
and they had, you know, no evidence that she was there,
you know, and then kind of moved on with other
vices and stuff. But again this is just chatter. We

(20:22):
haven't heard from mom directly. We haven't heard from Mom directly.
We're hearing from sources of a source of a source.
It's all the telephone game right now, right like we
just don't know. There reminds me of R.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Kelly a little bit, right, that's I guess a little
bit the crossover, but again not an original thought. But
more to come on this.

Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah, more to come. We're going to be following this obviously.
I'm looking at it every single day. This is True
Crime Tonight on iHeart Radio, where we talk true crime
all the time. I'm here with Courtney and Stephanie, and
we have been talking about the David and the Celeste
rebas Hernandez case. If you want to weigh and give
us a call eighty eight thirty one crime or hit
us on the talk backs on the iHeart Radio app. Courtney,

(21:02):
I understand you have an update for us to go over.

Speaker 4 (21:05):
Well, buckle up because Ditty's back in the new Laid anything.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
Yeah, what I hadn't heard. Yeah, right, you're right.

Speaker 7 (21:16):
Your session really tell me is that true Sean Ditty Combs,
his defense team is asking for a sentence of no
more than fourteen months, and that number is an arbitrary
It's essentially going to be the time served since the
September twenty twenty four arrest, and part of their rationale
and asking for that is harsh prison conditions, the fact

(21:40):
that he has been rehabilitated, and prosecutors also, unsurprisingly are
seeking for a substantially longer term.

Speaker 3 (21:49):
So we're going to see how that plays out.

Speaker 4 (21:51):
And this obviously goes back to Sean Combs being convicted
July of twenty twenty five on to federal Man Act
counts and that related to interstate transportation for prostitution. He
was acquitted on more serious racketeering and sex trafficking charges
and those would have carried a potential for a life sentence,

(22:12):
but they did not come to bear. That's not what
he's been found guilty, right, So, Yeah, he has been
detained since the arrest and the sentencing is coming up
on October third.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
Wow, that's fast approaching.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
Oh, it's here, and it's very possible that he will
leave that day, right. So she's given a lot of
information to the courts as recently as yesterday that have
letters on his behalf, for example, his mother, Janice, who's
in her eighties and just wants to be able to
hold her son again, and from his children, and even
from young Miami, who I believe was going to be

(22:48):
one of the victims that was going to speak out
in the previous yesteryear when this was all going down
in the courtroom, and then that really didn't happen. So
what's interesting and I'm curious what you guys think, and
definitely the audience please jump in and join this convo
eight eight eight to three one crime because now you know,
it's been a few months. We were talking about Diddy

(23:09):
and Karen Reid at the same time all the time
when we were first launching, right, So it's interesting that
there's been By the way, how much has happened since.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
Now, I feel like it's a different year.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
I don't even know what day it is, but I feel.

Speaker 4 (23:23):
Like the world turns on a different access now from that.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
He might be right, Yeah, really I was thinking it today.
We couldn't kind of believe it. So that said, because
we have had so much that has happened since then,
I would be curious if we really kind of relook
at this case in its totality with maybe out the emotion.
I know, speaking for myself, I very emotionally charged on
this one, because look, he's coming up for sentencing, and

(23:50):
you know, looking back, is that totally appropriate? Because the
racketeering charges were complete overcharge or you know, the victims
coming forward and putting themselves out there in front of
the world to hear their experiences behind closed doors, does
that put them in jeopardy? Now?

Speaker 3 (24:10):
Is there a revenge tour?

Speaker 2 (24:11):
I think it's worth noting also, did he is sober
now and allegedly behind bars with you know, alcohol is
gone and you know most of the illicit drugs.

Speaker 3 (24:23):
Maybe just a little bit of.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Xanax is like calming him down and he's maybe seeing
things differently. Or are we able to just erase the
video that we saw of him, you know, beating Cassie
to the ground wildly at that hotel that time. But
it's complicated because that's not what he was charged for,
right And I think it's worth interesting, like not emotional

(24:45):
rethink and a relook because you know it's going to
be happening next week in court. We'd love to hear
everybody's perspective because it it is it's interesting to look
back on.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
I just think they really screwed the pooch. I think
I've been pretty vocal about this. This this case to
me is blah, you know, and I just think the
government just really blew the Poochier. I think that they
should have had all their ducks in a row. They
should have not never filed anything federal rego all these
They should have just filed sex trafficking and domestic violence

(25:17):
charges against him, maybe even attempted murder. I just think
it's ridiculous what they what they've made of this case,
and it's I think it's our fault.

Speaker 4 (25:26):
Well, I disagree with that. I thought the prosecution. Actually,
I thought they did a brilliant job. I thought the
prosecutors were very strong. Obviously you and the jury disagree,
and that's why there are juries with twelve people.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
That's true, that's true.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
But the case, I mean, they did bring forth, you know,
so many witnesses with specifics, but to an earl, actually,
we were off the air when you made the point.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
A lot was he said, She said, So how about
all those freak offs?

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Was that consensual? Was that okay? Is this organized? Was
this abuse?

Speaker 5 (26:00):
So?

Speaker 2 (26:00):
You know, it brought up a lot of really sensitive
stuff that I think is important that we get to
still talk about and have the benefit of some hindsight
here too. You know, regardless of whether there was an
overreach or if they did an amazing job the prosecution.

Speaker 3 (26:13):
Regardless, the prosecution's a little different now.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Remember Morencomy, who was the prosecutor in the original trial
after the charges were made, has been fired and she
has been removed by President Donald Trump and replaced with
another lawyer. I don't think they've been like fully approved
by the Senate. But he's said to be very brilliant
and impartial, and maybe there's a new team approach that

(26:39):
that might have something new to bring to the table
next week, you know, again fresh eyes. It is a
really unique time too, Like we're talking about so many
of these big versations in these I mean, I don't
even know how to understate or overstate how much is
going on seemingly in the world right now. So is
that a good time for Diddy? You know we've heard

(27:01):
so many times, oh for the Menendez brothers, those times
the eighties, you know, different, there was like a different time,
and maybe they were overcharged because they seemed like spoiled
and entitled based on the times. O J. Simpson, you know,
we've all seen many documentaries and interviews about the fact
that maybe he was not charged hard enough because there

(27:22):
was this big upswell at the time in Los Angeles,
and you know there's a race conversation added to it
that was happening in the climate in the culture and
in the ditty case. Is there is the climate in
the culture different today than maybe it was when he
was originally charged. I don't know the answer, it's simply
a question. But I do think it's an interesting context

(27:45):
as this actually shakes out for the last time.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
I don't know. I think I think the Epstein stuff
does play in with Diddy a little bit. I think
that the government in their charging did kind of have
Epstein in mind, that they didn't really get justice with it, right,
Like this is opportunity kind of to have a public
not a scapegoat, because he's guilty, I mean, for sure,
of being a creep and a jerk and an abuser

(28:10):
and a sex trafficker. Right, he's guilty of all those
things in my opinion, in my opinion, allegedly allegedly. But
you know, I just think they needed the lamb to slaughter, right,
I do think. I do think that had plenty.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, it's a really interesting point. I'm so curious. I'm
a little lost in it a little bit. I know
how I felt. I know how I feel. I really
do feel for every victim who had to come forward.
And by the way, some of those details were just
so yuck for having to hear them, let alone say them.
And it does take a lot of courage. So is
there a hit on your back now because you know

(28:46):
because you raised your hand? I wouldn't. I don't know
the answer. I just I do love the conversation. If
Diddy is clean and living his best life and had
been overcharged and wants to be a good man with
his family, is that a thing? Does that count? Or
do the victims get to have another voice? I do

(29:07):
not know the answer here do I?

Speaker 3 (29:09):
I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (29:11):
October third, we will know more because even though the
defense is going for time served, the prosecutors and interestingly,
the Probation Department reportedly are recommending a longer sentence, potentially
five or more years.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Wow. Well, we'll keep you guys updated and we'll be
looking forward to what happens October third. But coming up next,
Karen Reid is back in the crime headlines, this time
on her own accord.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
Listen, very very good. We're going to go straight to
a live caller. Who do we have Adam Krla on
the line.

Speaker 3 (29:44):
This is Ainsley calling in. Hello Ainsley, Hi, Ainsleie.

Speaker 8 (29:49):
How are you.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
Oh, it's great to have you here. Welcome, welcome, welcome,
talk to us. What's your question?

Speaker 9 (29:55):
Thank you?

Speaker 8 (29:57):
Yeah. So I was listening to the Idahole Mascer today
and you had that prison expert and they talked about
how the visiting's quite restrictive, and so I was wondering.
I guess my question is twofold. If do you think
there's journalists who are approaching Coburger and would those journalists

(30:19):
even be able to enter the prison to get an
interview from him?

Speaker 3 (30:24):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (30:24):
I have a strong feeling on it, do you What
is it? Yes, I think people are really entering. And
by the way, that's how this is done, right, There's
a person who's perpetrated a murder and then you want
an interview with them, because look, we're all curious. I'm
curious we have not done that because it just feels
so yuck to me.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
But that's a personal choice.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
But yes, I think that people are probably clamoring for
an interview with Brian Coburger right now, and to me, personally,
I don't really want to hear it. I want to
hear everything around found it to protect myself in the
real world from people like him, and I think his

(31:06):
stage is over. My two cents all that to be said,
I am so curious to hear what he would have
to say, so, you know, take it all with uh,
he said, She said, I don't know that's true.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
I feel the same way like I. I'm very interested
in what he has to say, but I also don't
want to hear it. You like, it's the same I
double the same way. Yeah, it's a double edged I
do think that journalists, I agree with you that journalists
are probably reaching out to him. I think Brian Coberger
is not going to speak with a journalist. I think
Brian Coberger is going to speak to a criminal science

(31:41):
kind of person. Yeah, before he speaks to it. Maybe
I'm wrong, though, maybe you're one.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Hundred percent right. By the way, that is so right.
We know he's going to speak to his person by Ainsley,
great question, by the way, thank you. I would imagine
that he has been in conversations with you know, his idol,
and we've seen so much conversation and chatter about you know,
his professor and the science you know, all of that,

(32:09):
that's probably what we will see, and that's probably what
people will watch. I just really am tiring of Brian Coburger.
I am too, And can you imagine me saying that never?

Speaker 4 (32:22):
Yeah, however, I do think if indeed, because you guys
put yourself back, it seems a really long time ago,
and it was not when finally he was sentenced and
led out and people were rabid for the.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
Why I was by it. I'm exhausted by it, honestly.
It was so unsatisfying, and I think we were all
on such high alert emotionally speaking, and by the way,
I feel that way even today for different reasons. It
was so how could he just walk away with not

(32:58):
giving us a why? How is there no alucution? How
was he not saying I'm sorry? How was he not
sitting there begging for mercy? This guy didn't seem to
care a tinge. So what are we going to get
from him? His truth?

Speaker 4 (33:11):
He's a liar, right, And I mean that's what Prosecutor
Bill Thompson, that is what he had to say. That
was a big part of his rationale. And I have
such a closure from those victims' impact statements.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
Which we watch the truth.

Speaker 4 (33:30):
It was just that was sort of the closure and
peace hearing their piece about it.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
Can I say something about the Bill Thompson thing. Yes,
and it might be unpopular, but I think he's full
of crap. You know, he said, I'm sorry, I.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Was not the way you phrased that. I was not
expecting that to be the landing.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
Well, listen, he said, he said. The reason they didn't
ask for a reason or where the knife was, you know,
where the weapon was, and et cetera, was because you
know Brian Coberger would likely lie. Well, if Brian Coburger
is lying, you're going to know immediately because if you
if he tells you where the knife is and you
go and look and it's not there, well then you
know he's lying exactly. They didn't even try. They didn't

(34:13):
even try, you know what I mean. And it's just
so irritating to me that he's just like, well he's
a lyar. Well, I feel like you're lying to me
right now.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
No, I know, And that is such a fair point
because you feel that in your bones a little bit,
like he doesn't resonate as authentic.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
And imagine being the parent of one of these children.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
I can't. And we, you know, we're so closely attached
to solve his family, and we're so closely attached in
terms of our hearts. So all of the family members
and their their various journeys on this can It's enraging. Honestly,
it's enraging. And now he gets to kind of collect
his thoughts and think about what he would say and

(34:52):
how this will be perceived and become a human science experiment.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
My whole, my whole thing with that is that he
gets to sit in that cell knowing that people including
the parents and family members of these beautiful victims, knowing
I know where this knife is and this is a
secret that I can roared over them. I don't like that.
I don't like that. I don't like it either.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
And we were talking about it a little bit last night,
and I'm getting all charged up again. I am now,
I'm all like, okay, I want to try to like
I'm trying to like cool my jets as a general tonight,
So am I being very like civilized. The photos make
me crazy too, that we just were talking about, not
even the ones about him, just seeing some of the
candid shots, even from victim's bedrooms that maybe we hadn't

(35:37):
seen before, or little Maddie's like things collected around her,
you know, window, and you know, I went through them
one at a time and was like, oh, I have
that same thing, or oh she would have this little
plant thing, and it just was such a reminder of
the lives that were just taken ba boom and like
this guy gets no more stage. But you know, the

(35:58):
Gonzalvez family, like the all of them, the shape and family,
I mean, they've all had such different versions of how
they've healed, right, you know, you think about the Kernodle family,
even both parents have different perspectives and how this had
should have gone down. So it's just been a real
I think we've all emotionally as a nation, as a world,

(36:19):
have been on this journey with them. I hope they
feel the love of the family members as they kind
of push on or attempt to push on, and I
hope they.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
Feel everybody's love.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
And part of that love is not giving any more
to Brian Cobroger.

Speaker 4 (36:34):
I do want to give one more thing to Bill Thompson,
who I don't know why I feel the need to
stand up to.

Speaker 3 (36:41):
Courtney, to sat up in her chair. She did, I did,
She's going to give it to me and straight.

Speaker 4 (36:48):
I think Jarrett Farentino, legal expert, analyst, prosecutor who was
on him, love him, and I think he had a
really good and accurate read on Bill Thompson of He
is a real measured guy. He's not a on the
more bombastic end of lawyer ring. And this was you know,

(37:10):
you may call it the path of least resistance, but
think of the resistance which he said he had to
really weigh in his heart for all of the differing
families perspectives as you just laid out, and to not
engage them in years what could have been decades of
their lives to what could be an unsatisfactory we could

(37:30):
have the exact same an answers after all this time.

Speaker 3 (37:33):
So anyway, I agree with that one hundred percent agree
with you on that, but I disagree that with his reasoning.
Well he just went have lied. Well you didn't even.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
Try, right, I see both of you. I totally agree,
But the.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
Plea I agree with, like, yeah, it saves the family
from in let's say, the death penalty moved and went
forward and he was convicted. Appeal after appeal after appeal
for them to sit in. It's it's horrific to think
about I one million percent I agree with you on that.
I'm not even upset by the plea at all, but
the fact that they didn't even try and then have
the audacity dis alsable because he would have lied. Okay,

(38:07):
well you don't know that, right, And.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Also just all of the behind the scenes negotiating was hard.
It was hard to hear that from the family's perspective, right.

Speaker 6 (38:18):
I was just going to jump in and say, I
know I'm going to be the only one that feels
this way, but I would be curious to hear what
he had to say in an interview. I know everyone
doesn't want to hear anything else to say, but there's
a side of me that always wants to try to
at least understand so that maybe moving forward, there's a
world where we can avoid something like this, Like he
came from such a normal type background and to do

(38:41):
something like this, maybe I could get like a glimmer
of some sort of information that helps me figure out
maybe how we can avoid something like this in the future.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
I agree, And by the way, maybe I feel so
triggered I mean, listen, we've made the documentary, we've made
three seasons of the podcast. We've all been following it
so closely from day one. Yes, for me personally, I
was really defensive of Brian Coberger not being tried in
the media.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
Like I was really like I was really.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
Courtney, you know, had to hear me talk about it
literally all the time. I was always emotionally stirred behind
the scenes about are we trying this guy in the press,
and you know that's not our role. Granted, it's like,
you know, there were some things that in the early
days we could still really explain away, like okay, like this.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
Guy was weird. Is that enough?

Speaker 2 (39:32):
I don't know. Do we just like put every weirdo
and make them the assertion that they're a killer? We
were just talking about it earlier. The optics are hard
to come back for. I really was really, really stressed
even when we were making the documentary. I can't tell
you how much sleep we've all lost making it, and
like we're not trying him in the press. We're not.

(39:52):
So then the guy's a liar and has been fooling
us this entire time, and he's a killer, and we
know that how much this his family is going through
and trying to heal from in the community, in the
town and the students that go to the school.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
So I feel I'm so mad, I even know what
I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (40:09):
Look, I'm sorry to sweat again, but it was the
right decision, as fun as it is to you know,
crucify people for sport that it shouldn't be done. That's
not the righteous or correct way to be. And there is,
you know, there is responsibility that comes on reporting and
doing docs and podcasts and standing on what is fact

(40:32):
and true versus wild conjecture is the correct way to
go because guess what, it all comes out in the
end and he is guilty and there it is, so
you know.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
His own admission, it's like, you know, we lived it
until the bitter end, so I guess there's a little
holdover on that. I'm like, wow, this guy really cut
the straight face and a lot of circumstances and light
to all of us, wasted so much money of you know,
the States time and the States money, and the family
was looking to I only get their justice, and by
the way, their hearts have been ripped out beyond measure,

(41:04):
and it is so senseless, and the ripple effect of
the students that attend the school, like it seemed impossible
by the way.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
I also feel for the Coburger family.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
The sisters got fire from their job, and the mom
that was like writing letters to school shooters and an
open letter.

Speaker 3 (41:19):
Like the story goes on and on and on.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
Dad is driving trying to make his weird son make
friends and doing road trips left and right, like this
is tough stuff.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
I feel bad for the classmates.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
The classmates, they're all got no one's hearing them. According
to body, we all like we talked to people that
were in his class that were like, I don't know
they you know, they said everything was fine.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Yet the teacher the Ta.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
Was the killer and we weren't even on lockdown. Everyone
was looking at the other school in the killer was
my ta.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
How does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (41:54):
So it's just like his junkers, so many things my Ta.

Speaker 3 (41:57):
But I made complaints about him because cord and following
me to my car and uckering over my desk and
dun't et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Like that's like
could I have been next to Like that's going to
be testifying for those people.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
You know, the traumaticness of the fact that I could
have been next right, or maybe maybe he was practicing
because I was, you know, like it's a little narcissistic,
but it's also like a reality like that you could
think of like, oh my god, was he really imagining
that was me?

Speaker 3 (42:26):
Or you know, like terrifying.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
And we also now know, based on what we've learned
post his conviction, that it was slightly random, that there
wasn't this deep connection, There wasn't like insurance at the
center of it, and oh there were squabbling over money
or they were ex lovers. Not that any of that
justifies anything, obviously, Captain obvious, but it was completely random.

Speaker 3 (42:50):
Now realize you've just been in his class.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Getting c's and you have to go to dopey office
hours with the TA Brian Coburger, the teacher assistant, to
like up up your grade because you have to listen
to him drone on to you in the corner, and
you have to close the door behind you, one on
one with what we now know is a random killer,
which people has been scared randomly killing people. What about

(43:14):
the neighbors that he was sneaking in their rooms? Potentially
and going in their houses and dipping out like.

Speaker 3 (43:19):
The after people medicine cabinets.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Going through cabinets and just being weird have about the
family that's standing by him. That's like, look, God, I
thought he was a little weird like that, that weird,
like nobody thinks, right. So it triggers every scary movie
in our emotional like our nervous system.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
Mine, at least mine, I should just own that it's
just mine. No, it does me too, and it makes
me be so scared a lot of people, of course,
because it is random is scary.

Speaker 4 (43:48):
You know, people think, oh, if I live whatever kind
of pure life I choose to live, and random Clown
just shows how to.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
Kicks that all away.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
And now he's gonna sit down for an interview with
you know who, said person who's going to pay him
money or I know they can't do that, but like,
I don't know, give him cheetos.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
For his dumb commissary and his vegan meals.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
I know that's his right as a US citizen. I
do get that, body, and I hear you on that, but.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
I'm not saying that hare.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
You make a good point about it.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
But sometimes I'm like that doesn't seem fair either. It's
I know it doesn't I listen. I'm not like a
Brian Coberger semino to the imagination. The randomness of it though,
the randomness of it is so scary because he's scariest.
He's the literal boogeyman right, exactly exactly scary, which is
what we set.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
Out to disprove in the podcast, and it turns out
it was true.

Speaker 3 (44:42):
Well, coming up, we're going to be getting into Karen
read I promise and she is back in the news.
Plus true crime headlines of the day, including the list updates.
Keep it right here at True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here, of course,
with Courtney Armstrong and Body Move in. Listen. If you've
missed any portion of the show so far, you can
of course catch it later as a podcast. Please do
and listen. We've been covering a lot of the cases
that are back. It seems like we've gone back in

(45:23):
time three months because we're talking about whether it was
Epstein last night or now Brian Coberger yet again in
the Idaho massacre and Diddy headed back to court next week,
so we'll be unpacking that tomorrow and until then, and
then also Karen Reid, Karen Reid is back in court. Courtney,

(45:43):
let's go.

Speaker 4 (45:44):
Okay, this is going this is going to be so
interesting and complicated. So we're going to do a top line.
But this is something for sure we will be diving
into because there's many legs to this particular Karen read octopus.
So Karen Reid's attorneys, unsurprisingly have announced plans to sue

(46:04):
the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, the police, and multiple individuals who
were involved in her criminal prosecution. And the allegation is
that her civil rights were violated. Now that further is
complicating the wrongful death lawsuit filed against her by John

(46:25):
O'Keefe's family.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
She's basically saying, guys, you've stolen four years of my
life for a crime I now only did not commit
that I've been tried for twice and by the way,
I have lost my job, I've lost my place in society.
The money that has gone to pay for lawyers that
are extremely expensive. You guys were about to throw away
the key and leave me behind bars for the life

(46:49):
that was real. Karen Reid was really looking at that
and it was twice yes.

Speaker 4 (46:55):
So Karen Reid, of course was acquitted. This happened back
in June of charges related to the twenty twenty two
death of her boyfriend, Boston Police officer John O'Keefe, and
she was alleged to have hit him with her car.
She was found not guilty of all charges except for
DUI I believe, but I worried, Oh, I was going

(47:18):
to say. Targets of the planned lawsuit include Brian Nicole Albert.

Speaker 3 (47:23):
That's who owned the home that this occurred at.

Speaker 4 (47:25):
Correct, correct, Jennifer and Matthew McCabe, the mccab's yep, and
Brian Higgins. And as you said, Stephanie, all of those
folks were at the house at the bottom of which
John O'Keeffe died, right, But that was very The circumstances

(47:47):
were absolutely crazy surrounding the investigation. The fact that John
O'Keeffe's dead body was found at the end of the
driveway at thirty thirty four Fairview Road, and all those
people I just mentioned were inside of it, and yet
no one was spoken to they weren't.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
They didn't even search that house, did they No, they
didn't search the house, and then the house had some
construction done to it. And this is a reminder. Yeah,
So Karen and her then boyfriend, John O'Keefe, he was
like law enforcement, so beloved had an incredible family. Let's
just remember him. His sister died and his brother in

(48:22):
law died and he took in their children and was
raising them on his own. As you know an air quotes.
You know, single dad who had a girlfriend named Karen Reid.
And Karen Reid, they had a good thing going, they
had a nice relationship. They go at one snowy night,
tons of snow. It wasn't even snow, was straight up
like a lizard. Yeah, and they're all like, let's be honest,

(48:45):
drunk skunks at the bar, all of them cops. So
it's John O'Keeffe and like all said people, and they're like, hey,
let's go back for after hours at my place. And
they go back to my place at Courtney.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
The thirty four Fairview Road.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Yes, so they go back to that house and maybe
there's an after party that happens there.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
That's the alleged story. And they're all friends.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
By the way, Karen's like a little bit of the
outsider from what it sounded like, but like the core
group is buds. And then Karen pulls up with John O'Keefe,
her boyfriend. They've all been super boozy at this point,
so totally drunk driving, which is awful. And they get
to the house and according to Karen, she's like, hey,
John's going to go inside, and she's a little ticked off.
She wants to go home just to call it a night,

(49:30):
and John's like, hey, I'm going to go inside, and then,
according to her, he doesn't return. She peels off, goes home,
doesn't hear from him, loses her mind, and then the
story goes body is discovered. What happened in that house?
Because if Karen Reid didn't actually hit him, which is
what she was accused of, and her tail light did
not actually strike his body and he was not in

(49:52):
fact killed by her vehicle and left for dead in
the snow, what happened where What happened? So did he
go into that party and maybe a fight happened? Was
there a fight amongst and I hate to say this,
you know it is pointing out law enforcement in this
case that we're all buds. And it's a very specific,
you know, cru this is not a stain on all things.

(50:14):
But this crew was pretty tight and they were all
party pants and did something the fairy has happened there
and they all covered up for it because that's what
it looked like. And when you really break it down,
which we're about to see again frontline and center with
this new set of circumstances and Karen Reid's major civil lawsuit,
this is cash. She says, like, you guys tortured me,

(50:36):
and you guys all knew it, and you set me
up and left me for dead in Boston's coming back
for you.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
And I'm taking no names in fact, so.

Speaker 4 (50:44):
All of your names are on my list, and the
list is longer than the people I mentioned. Additionally, Karen
Reid's legal team has announced countersuits against several of the
the key players in her case, Massachusetts police Brian Tullo
and the fired trooper Michael Proctor.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Oh yeah, he got tossed out.

Speaker 3 (51:06):
He got tossed remember he was like so tried about that.
I worry about the ripple effect. Courtney, you know of
these other cases Brian Walsh for instance, Yes, the man
accused of killing and murdering and dismembering his wife, Sandra Birchmore,
you know the girl that was killed. I worry about
the cases that he handled, Michael.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
Bats that's so corrected. I'm so worried. And it really
speaks to protocol, right, so true. Less about law enforcement.
I think the biggest issue here is protocol and where
did it get Lucy Goosey, Why in the lord's name
has that house not been gone through with a fine
tooth comb by law enforcement when somebody was found dead
at the front of it.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
That wouldn't happen anywhere else. You think that's because it
was law enforcement law enforcement home of course.

Speaker 4 (51:54):
Yeah, one hundred and that's the accusation.

Speaker 3 (51:58):
That's the accusation.

Speaker 4 (51:59):
Well, but I mean the what happened in the investigation,
what is known? What is fact that happened in the investigation,
or rather that did not happen? Would support that, including
speaking to the people who own the house where a
dead body is found at the end of the driveway.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Number one, They would never interviewed by the way, he
was like, I didn't even really go downstairs. I just
picked my head out right Like they were never actually
interviewed that night.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
That's correct. Oh, I thought they did. I thought they
went in the kitchen.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
How about the other one that went off with the
car and was like, hey, we're going to go go ahead?

Speaker 3 (52:31):
Court well also included in these.

Speaker 4 (52:34):
I don't know if it's going to be many lawsuits
or all in one, but Karen Reid is also planning
to sue the town of Canton and the police department
for negligence security, and that involves the garage in the
police sally port where key evidence was stored.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
Where that video was transport like trans correct correct?

Speaker 4 (52:55):
Yes, People may remember this came up quite a bit
at trial, including the woman who worked there, whose name
I'm forgetting but.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
Had never heard what a computer was before or in
the sally or who she worked for. Yeah, that's right, yes, yes, Diver.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
That was like so controversial because you got her name
wrong the first time. It was like devers slash diverse. Yeah.
She was like, I do not have any idea what.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
You're talking here? Why am I even here?

Speaker 2 (53:24):
What boss?

Speaker 3 (53:25):
What day? What car?

Speaker 2 (53:26):
What murder?

Speaker 6 (53:27):
She was?

Speaker 2 (53:28):
She really was out of hand, she was.

Speaker 3 (53:30):
I mean, it was so ridiculous.

Speaker 4 (53:31):
It actually turned to comedy for me at that point
of her stand but that that speaks to you know,
not police as a whole. But as you said, this
specific what went on and what was not secured. So
there's going to be a lot of lawsuits to follow.
We will keep you updated on all of them.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
We have to.

Speaker 4 (53:52):
And yes, and this is true crime tonight and we
want to hear if you have any thoughts on Karen
Reid or any Brian Colberger, who we discussed earlier, give
us a call eight at eight to three to one crime.
But now body, you are going to catch us up
on Lisk Long Island serial killer.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
So Suffolk County judge has ruled that the alleged Long
Island serial killer, Rex Huwerman, will face all seven murder
chargers in a single trial, rejecting his defense's team's request
to separate all the cases. Huerman's attorneys argued that the
murders lacked like unique ties, a unique pattern, but the

(54:36):
judge disagreed and also denied the motion to exclude that
controversial DNA evidence. So it's giving listenlin I know we
just talked about this. It's giving me coburger vibes because
remember with Brian Coberger, there was denial after denial they had.
They denied the alibi, not the alibi, I'm sorry, the DNA,

(54:57):
and then they denied the alternate perpetrator of it, and
then a couple of weeks later we get a plea agreement. Right,
So I'm getting these like the Spidey senses that there
might maybe maybe there'll be some kind of flea with
with Rex Humman. I'm hoping not because I'm hoping we
actually get a trial out of this, but I'm getting

(55:18):
like they're trying everything at this point.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Guy has wasted so much time. Also, I'm gonna Cobor
Revibes times ten thousand again, innocent until proven guilty. But
we also have had the benefit of a lot of
information in this case, specifically.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
Remember that checklist, Oh the checklist.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
And by the way, I grew up very close to
this area, so it's a little deep to my heart.
And it's been that case that we've all talked about
as long Islanders that is really haunting. And again, a
regular guy doing a regular thing, taking this up, you know,
the train to New York City to his architecture job,
declining on you know comment and I didn't do it,

(56:00):
And my wife loves me, my kids love me, and
this guy maybe he has in fact done it, and
I find it pretty unsatisfying if he pleased. But my
prediction he's going to play.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
Yeah, I think it might be coming. I think it might.
And by the way, Long Island Press is speculating that
that might be happening as soon as this end of
this week. I did too, I really as well. It's
just speculation at the moment. I don't want anybody out
there listening to think that you know, a plea deal
is coming or one has even been offered. But I
do think that it's a possibility and that we should

(56:33):
prepare for that. I really do.

Speaker 6 (56:36):
Well.

Speaker 4 (56:36):
The judge really strengthened the defense's case by allowing jurors
to hear all of the information on all of the
cases at once.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
I mean that just seems the defense wasn't really not
wanting that. So the Yeah, the court in the DNA
evidence just a couple of weeks ago that you know,
was kind of controversial and a DNA was basically built.
And remember we had CC Moron and she told us
about this great lab in California that basically built this

(57:06):
DNA from these fragments and that had never been done
in New York before, and it's it's now it's going
to be case law. So this is like really important
and important case. And so I'm hoping there is no
plea agreement again because if there is, and maybe it
won't be case law, right, and then they'll have to
go back and try this again.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
Anyway, totally fair, By the way, that's a really that
actually brings me a lot of comfort hearing you say that.
It's a really good point, and I hadn't considered that.
I just think of the victims, and I'm like, boy,
I want him to have to face the amusement. So
these guys that are like maniacs, which you know, Brian
Coberger a maniac and a psychopath. This guy maniac psychopath

(57:47):
you know, alleged right, yeah, yeah, allegedly you know true?
What what good is it to listen to them drone
on about what's doing If they plea out and now
new things can be moved moving.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
Forward, that has value?

Speaker 2 (58:03):
And boy, well, I one thing I was a little
confused about what would have been the benefit if I'm him,
If I'm Humman Rex Humorman, the accused of trying each
one of these cases individually, with that just a slog
of time, and I guess get to go to court
every day and just takes years and years.

Speaker 4 (58:24):
Well also, it's yeah, it's the totality. Sorry, but it's
the totality. And with all of the victims, you know.
The defense argued that, oh, there's not the same modus operandi,
and there are small differences, but there are many consistencies.
For example, the cell phone forriendships are incredibly powerful that
track him with all these burner phones to and from

(58:47):
work home.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
Victims, the victims phones, and this guy is murdering young girls,
putting them in a burlin yeah, vulnerable lung girls, luring
them off of dating apps and like sex apps and stuff,
you know, a girl who then he just tosses like
trash and the and on the beach and you know,
and then gets up in the morning and goes with

(59:11):
his daughter on the Long Island Railroad and goes to
work to New York City in a.

Speaker 3 (59:15):
Three piece suit with one of the victim's phones in
his pockets. Right, So yeah, y to your point though, Yeah,
so in that in in the case where he traveled
with one with one of the victim's phones in a
case where those are tried separately, the jury would not
hear about that. Right a new jury, it would be right.

(59:37):
So the totality of the evidence and the common threads
throughout right that that they the jury needs to hear,
and I think it's it's going to be detrimental to
him in his defense. What a good point. Thank you
for clarifying that for me. I know that's wrong. Way
you're dred.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
Percent right, of course, you know, yes, you have to
see the totality to understand the patterns and the things
that if done separately, could get lost in the sauce.
I think that's yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
Thank you for clarifying, sure, because then it could be
one or not all of them have a cell phone tide.
But once you've seen it multiple times, then you know
it becomes a patterner right, pattern, keep it here. Coming up,
we have the latest with Sarah Grace Patrick and it
is true crime and Chill. We're going to be unpacking
one of the absolute wildest documentaries I've ever seen.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
Horrifying, Yeah, lover stalk or Killer.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
And listen, we're getting into so many of these stories
that have been in our head for so long now,
and they're all back in Court, Karen Reid, Diddy Eve Scene,
I mean Long Island serial Killer, Like these are the
ones that I feel like we've been talking about so long,
for so long that it's they all seem to be
coming to a head, either again or for the final time.

(01:01:02):
So there's going to be so much to uncover tomorrow
as well and well into next week obviously, So thank
you for being with us.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
We're going to go straight to a talk that.

Speaker 9 (01:01:12):
Hey, ladies, it's Ainsley from Canada. I just listened to
your new podcast In Cells as well as this week's
at a Home Massacre podcast, and I just want to
say I love them. I also listen to your Pikes
in Massacre podcast and to anyone who hasn't, they should
definitely go out and listen to that. That's probably one

(01:01:34):
of my favorite podcasts I've ever listened to. You guys
have produced some awesome words. Keep it up, ladies, by.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
Wow Ainsley Night, I know my favorite Canadian.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
I mean, honestly, I will say this about In Cells
because it's a world that we kind of are diving in.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
Really.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
I think you know, Boddy, you're more educated probably than
probably the state, but you know a lot more about
this world and Courtney, we were kind of a little
further behind you, but we've been talking about it for
years and years also, and you know, here we are.
We had been working on it for a while, and

(01:02:16):
now suddenly the conversation is everywhere is about this, you know,
the idea of what is this online world where people
aren't getting radicalized and we're seeing a real time and
the Charlie Kirk murders and what is happening. And it
wasn't intentional that it was coming out exactly at this time.
It's something we've been working on for a very long

(01:02:37):
time and boy is it interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
Well, it is interesting and important. There's a lot of
terminology too that you know, it's so interesting because, like
you said, the timing is really like wow. But there's
a lot of terms that we talk about on the
podcast in cells that you know, people don't have never
heard before. Absolutely myself included sure, like black built and
pilled and Stacy's and Chad's and like, you know, if

(01:03:03):
you've never heard of these things before, you're you're you're
watching the news because now these terms are have leapt
from the computer screen onto like mainstream media and and uh,
you know, it's I think it's a really good introduction
to this this terrifying world, and I am lucky to
have been a part of it. So thank you, ah yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:03:23):
Thank you for everything you have to say on it.
And it has been wildly interesting, as you say, to
be watching the news while we're producing this and listening
to the interviews, and you know, we do try and
lay out all of the language because the language is
important to know. If you don't understand what people are

(01:03:43):
talking about, you're not going to stand the problem.

Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
This certainly is no solution.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
And like we're seeing a lot of this right the idea,
you know, Brian Coberger who was not self identified as
an in cell, but somebody who was maybe online a
lot and feeling disenfranchised and sort of outside of the
universe of the real world world. And look what happened.
And there's more examples of this that are you know,
incredibly timely.

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
And again we.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
Were talking about things, you know, even six months ago
that it was like, well, no one's going to understand this,
but we have to talk about it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
Yet now it's on the ticker.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
It's happened when we were the Idaho student murders, the
documentary too. It was like, it's crazy to be making
something while it's all hitting the news real time.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
It was, it's kind of wild, really, can I can
I share something? Of course, it's a little scary. Actually,
I'm a little I'm a smidge frightened because when we
decided to do this and you guys had you know,
proposed it and whatnot, none of this had happened yet,
none of it had happened yet. And so now that
things have progressed right in the world, and there's all

(01:04:47):
these this news coming out and you know, foids are
being discussed as female humanoid terminology and black pilling and whatnot,
and these are being tied to like real world assassinations. Right,
I'm a little I'm a little personally afraid. Well, and
I think that I think if I say it out loud,

(01:05:07):
it's going to go away, right, like shed light on.
I'm a little afraid. But I would be lying if
I didn't see if I wasn't, you know, if I
didn't say that I'm a little afraid.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
I feel that I understand that, Yeah, I really do.
And I feel like we're kind of in that all
the time. It's like, how do you talk about the
dark things and shed light in these dark places, right.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
Without getting caught up in it. Right, it's scary. It's
just a scary time that we're all living in. The
world is really heavy, right. I think we can all
admit that, right, the world is really heavy under and
we're all trying to navigate, right, We're trying to navigate
it as best we can.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
And by the way to that end. And we had
talked about this so much before the show and around
the show, and we talk about this all the time,
and I might be the nightmare exclusively in this.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
It's always like, can we talk about this again?

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
Because it's something that has happened so recently. Even just
you know, two weeks ago, with the assassination of Charlie Kirk,
we all witnessed a live murder. I mean, honestly, I
work in true crime. We work in true crime. I
look at autopsies.

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
All the time.

Speaker 2 (01:06:15):
You know, I've been around a lot of death in
my own personal life. I've I've been in the room
for death. I've touched a whole hole, held a hand
during death. I've seen bodies this I have never ever
personally seen a human being being killed live and I
don't want I didn't want to see that. And the

(01:06:36):
whole nation has now the world we've all collectively seen
something that is so horrible, and again our hearts are
going out to his his his wife and his two
babies and their family, and I mean, the ripple effects
is just it's actually I'm a little whirl, a little numb.
I feel like I have like a low key layer
of PTSD from what we have now witnessed that it's

(01:06:59):
almost too hard to cover. Even tomorrow, we're gonna have
a therapist on. We're going to have Jessica Kaplan here
marriage and family therapist to talk us through.

Speaker 3 (01:07:06):
It a little bit, because I know we're not alone.
Jess knows best. Jess knows best.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
So if you guys have any questions or something that
you want to work through.

Speaker 3 (01:07:13):
But imagine those who have been.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
A victim of a violent crime or something involving those
types of forensics, and how triggering it is for our
our whole communities are everybody.

Speaker 3 (01:07:26):
The entire planet, the whole planet.

Speaker 2 (01:07:28):
Yeah, it's not normal for us now that it changes
your DNA and I wish that wasn't the case. And
I don't know, I don't know how to navigate it personally.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
I totally agree.

Speaker 4 (01:07:38):
I think speaking you know, in us, having a licensed
professional on is a step in the correct direction, and
it's a hard place to step from. So that will
be tomorrow and that will be important. I wanted to
update you guys on Sarah Grace Patrick. She is the
fifteen year old she's pleaded not geill to charges of

(01:08:01):
murdering her mother, Kristen Brock, only forty one years old,
and her stepfather, James Brock, only forty five. This happened
back on February, specifically February twentieth of this year.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
And.

Speaker 4 (01:08:16):
Sarah Grace is accused of doing this fatal shooting. And
then when she turned herself into authorities back in July,
it was after a warrant had been issued for her arrest.
She has entered the plea during a court appearance. Prosecutors
are moving forward with their case and the defense hasn't
spoken publicly about what its strategy will be, so people

(01:08:39):
are questioning, you know, what both sides, what their arguments
will be. People also might remember that Sarah Grace had
allegedly reached out to true crime TikTokers and we did
see her on social media platforms and she was sort
of crying and grieving and speaking about this murder. So

(01:09:05):
this will be this will be one to watch. Authorities
say they have quote mountains of evidence against Patrick. Yeah,
but but details have not been disclosed, so I don't
know if it's sort of close hold until trial, which
is certainly their purview.

Speaker 3 (01:09:22):
Where is she now?

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
So she's home, she's home with mom and dad. I
think she's I don't think she's is she and dad.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
Are dead, well, her father because it was her step.

Speaker 6 (01:09:33):
Oh that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:09:34):
Yes, yes, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right.
My apologies, Okay, yes, you're absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
Regardless, It's like again, this is one of those cases
that's like so difficult, I know, I mean, how do
you do that?

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
Like this is like right, that's what it's called Patrick's side? Yeah, yes, yes,
and yeah, how do you come to terms with that?
And the poor, the poor sister, the little sister.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
That knowing that you're sister was going to find your
mother and your stepfather regardless of the circumstances, and knowing
that your birth dad is going to have to go
through the grief of having to urge you to turn
yourself in, or it was the grandpa like some she
had to like know that her little sister was going
to be walking into this, this horrible scene.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
Is there is there a world in which, you know,
we live where she's not guilty.

Speaker 4 (01:10:25):
Of course, she hasn't been tried that she's pled not guilty,
so so absolutely we we don't know how this will
play out. She is and will remain in custody as
this process is moving. So that's correct. Okay, well, thank you?
And she Yeah, she's being tried as an adult. She

(01:10:45):
could face life in prison without role if she's convicted.

Speaker 3 (01:10:51):
Do you remember those weird tiktoks she made?

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
Yes, yeah, where she was I almost want to revisit
those right now.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
Okay, okay, we can do that. I remember some of them.
So there were they. She was kind of If you
didn't if she wasn't accused of this or she you know,
if there wasn't this lens of speculation on did she
do it or not, then I think it would just
be that she was just being like kind of dramatic
for the camera. But looking back on it with the

(01:11:20):
lens of her being arrested for this crime, and whatnot.
It's kind of like eerie. She made these videos in
which she was like crying on camera saying that she
missed her mom or she wanted her mom, and reaching
out to true crime influencers on TikTok asking them to
cover the case, and that wow, she has like knowledge
and kids, she'll talk to them and whatnot. And it's

(01:11:43):
kind of like looking, if you look at with the
lens of, oh my god, she might have done this, right,
because she's currently in jail for it right now while
you're waiting trial, then it's like, oh, creepy, creepy. But
if you look at it with the lens of you know,
somebody else did it and she's a victim, it's kind
of like, oh, my heart goes out to her. She's

(01:12:04):
just a teenager and doesn't really know how to handle
her emotions right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:06):
Because she's just a girl, and it's playing out sort
of strange. But it did land a little odd, and
her eulogy landed, yeah, a little odd. You know, that's
the speculation certainly when she was speaking, when she was
speaking about her mother, you know, in these very dark times,
to be now accused for the murders of the people

(01:12:28):
that you were missing so much. It's a tough one.
Who else would have done it? Is it possible that,
again we talked a lot about origin stories yesterday, is
it possible that there was something happening. We're not accusing
mom and the stepdad, by the way, nothing is nothing
nothing nothing, nothing justifies that. However, was there something else
going on behind the scenes in the dynamic of her life,

(01:12:52):
whether that's at home or with friends or what have you,
that maybe lent itself to this crime and it doesn't matter.

Speaker 4 (01:12:59):
So Kristin and James Brock what we do know of them,
They were active members.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
Of their church.

Speaker 4 (01:13:04):
They were largely reported on as very kind and generous
and loving people by their community. I will say that
Sarah Grace's maternal grandfather, he has suggested that dad stepdad James,
that his past as a felon and alleged allegedly had

(01:13:28):
motorcycle gang ties could be connected. He's also a grandfather
who is defending his granddaughter and he is saying as
is fact that she is innocent until proven guilty.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
So wow, that's pretty I mean, we we're learning this
through the Menendez brothers, So I don't know that's that's
distating this a lot in recent conversations that we've had
together is that, you know, a parent side is a
very rare thing. It's very unusual for a child to
murder parents without there being cause. There does typically seem

(01:14:03):
to be some layer of abuse, whether it's sexual or physical,
that has gone unnoticed or un it's not solved. We're
not accusing that, by the way, this is just a
this is a parent side thing. There usually is some
some meat in the bones. So if we listen to
what the Menendez brothers say that there's an origin story
to be had. It doesn't have to be the family.

(01:14:26):
Maybe there was a million options. It could be friends,
it could be drugs. I mean, we're listening to David
the pop star and the thirteen year old like I
you know, we might not know enough context to assume
that we should throw away the key on her.

Speaker 4 (01:14:42):
We don't have enough context at all. I mean, any
of the things you just said or one hundred other
It could be completely random.

Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
It could be mistaken identity. You know, there's there's no.

Speaker 4 (01:14:54):
End to what it could be because we don't have
the information motive.

Speaker 3 (01:14:58):
There has been no motive even pre nothing, nothing has
make this case correct. It's so unique, Like normally we
would have like some kind of probable cause. I have
a David that we could go over and talk about.
But I haven't seen anything on this do we. It's interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:15:13):
I wonder if it's not under sealed because if some
of it is because she's a mining.

Speaker 3 (01:15:17):
She's underage, but the fact that they're trying her as
an adult, I would imagine comes into play a little bit, right.
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:15:27):
It's a double edged sword with that, because yeah, where
where is that line?

Speaker 3 (01:15:31):
I don't know. If you're being charged as an adult,
then do you protect them as a minor or?

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
But there hasn't also been a ton of chatter for
friends or people in her world, her everyday life, the
Barissa at the Starbucks.

Speaker 3 (01:15:43):
That she typically goes to.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
You haven't seen to to to too much, So I
don't know. It's one again, another case that we'll be
following so closely.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
Right, we'll keep you updated. Well, it's true crime and
Chill time, and we're unpacking one of the literally wildest
documentaries I've ever seen. And I'm seeing the worst one,
like the craziest ones imaginable. You are on a stalkert Killer,
keep it right here, True Crime tonight. So listen, it

(01:16:21):
is Wednesday.

Speaker 2 (01:16:21):
It is True Crime and Chill where we're kind of
unpacking the watch of the week.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
The watch of the week. Yes, I mean I never
even thought of that one.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
Is that a new phrase that I think it has?

Speaker 6 (01:16:37):
The title?

Speaker 3 (01:16:38):
No? No, we can't change it was like parts I
feel a smoke machine upon us.

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
Boy, that was a big decision to get to True
Crime and Chills, so just an additive maybe. But anyway, listen,
as I'm saying this out loud, Courtney and Body are
sitting up so straight right now, and now it'saha is
too like it is like everybody's entering the ring to
talk about. Go ahead, Courtney, I don't want to steal
the thunder Lover Stalker Killer, Dune dun dum dum.

Speaker 8 (01:17:13):
Oh.

Speaker 4 (01:17:14):
We all watched it, right, We all watched it masterpiece
on Netflix and the Masterpiece spoiler alert.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):
If you don't want to hear, then you should, good
idea because it is so true. You'll be so bummed
if you know the intent.

Speaker 3 (01:17:30):
Yeah, that's true. Although I actually know the case. You
were right, I did know the case. You don't, Oh,
I knew it top to bottom. We did a crazy
and she was always like, well you know the case.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
I was like, everything you're telling me has I have
totally amnesia about. I have no idea. By the way,
I totally know the case. So but it still was
equally as great of a watch.

Speaker 3 (01:17:52):
So maybe not such a big spoiler.

Speaker 4 (01:17:54):
Yes, okay, so we're in Omaha, Nebraska.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
Oh oh, yes we are.

Speaker 3 (01:17:59):
Yes, there's a care.

Speaker 4 (01:18:00):
He's named Dave Croopa and this guy became entangled in
a deadly love triangle. He meant two women on a
dating app. This happened back in twenty twelve, and by
all accounts, he.

Speaker 3 (01:18:12):
Just seems like a really good guy.

Speaker 4 (01:18:14):
And after watching this documentary, I just want to hang
out and like have a bourbon meet him. He'd gotten
out of a really long relationship.

Speaker 3 (01:18:21):
He was a devoted dad.

Speaker 4 (01:18:22):
He moved to Omaha, Nebraska to be a real present
dad in his kid's life. But he knew he's like
I am casually dating, and he made that really clear.

Speaker 3 (01:18:32):
He did. He was very honest. He was so honest.
Maybe had a bad picker.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
He was so kind and clear and directional and intentional.

Speaker 4 (01:18:41):
Well, listen, what started as a couple of clicks on
a dating app turned into years of stalking, harassment, and violence,
and yeah, ended in betrayal and murder.

Speaker 3 (01:18:51):
So okay.

Speaker 4 (01:18:52):
In twenty twelve, David Krupa, the nice guy, he met
a woman named Carrie Farber. Okay, excuse me, Farber. They're
having a relationship, very casual. Literally only a couple of
days after he started dating Carrie, he also was dating
Liz Goiler, right, and there was a tense meeting. So

(01:19:15):
what did you guys think of this most awkward meeting
that when Dave is on a first date with Carrie
Farvar actual date, then Liz comes by to get something.

Speaker 3 (01:19:27):
They stage five, Stage five clinger. Let me tell you something.
If that happened to me, that would have been a
red flag for me, immediate. I mean it should be
even if it was a coincidence. Listen, you just show
up up my hand. It's just weird. I would have
been totally turned off by that, and I probably would
have ended things right then and there. That's just mean, yeah,

(01:19:49):
the same way.

Speaker 6 (01:19:50):
Yeah, that was the immediate one. Yeah, My whole issue
with this whole thing is there were so many little
red flags, but that was the first one.

Speaker 3 (01:19:56):
I was like, but I feel like I feel like,
to Dave's defense, you know, he was in a really
long relationship. He gets out of it, he's back to
dating for the first time in a long time. He's
so sweet. He does seem kind of like a sweet guy, right,
And I feel like he just was like, okay, you know,
like innocent mistake.

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
Yeah, I would have been right there with Dave hook
line and sinker.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
Flags.

Speaker 4 (01:20:22):
You know, he'd never been on an online dating app,
he'd never dated, he'd been, you know, in a relationship.

Speaker 3 (01:20:29):
I've never been on a dating app either. Just the
way the timing worked out, trash trash lover, stock er
killer told.

Speaker 6 (01:20:40):
Her that crime.

Speaker 3 (01:20:42):
Okay, so we have that is.

Speaker 4 (01:20:46):
So we have this love trial these two women that
Dave is casually dating. So Harry vanishes without a trace,
and she left behind all of her belongings, including medication,
and didn't show up for.

Speaker 3 (01:21:01):
Work, right, Okay, And they've even dating a couple of
weeks at this point, right, it's two weeks, very early saship.

Speaker 4 (01:21:09):
Yeah, okay, So she leaves and then she starts texting
him and it's these nasty things you're you know, you
don't want to be with me, and I'm going to
ruin your life. And it appears that Carrie has gone berserk,
and not only is Dave getting all of these really

(01:21:30):
intense harassing and threatening physically messages, even Dave's X who
he shares the children with, as well as the other one,
Liz Goyler, the one who just they met chance meeting.
So they're all getting these messages. Okay, this escalates. There

(01:21:52):
are break ins, there is vandalism, there.

Speaker 3 (01:21:54):
Is person.

Speaker 4 (01:21:56):
The fire the fire, yes, and so what it appears
is that Carrie, the one who vanished as and has
been harassing like a hundred times a day sometimes and
was particularly jealous of it appeared Liz, who Liz right,
David had been casually dating Liz's house.

Speaker 3 (01:22:17):
With her animals. She's an animal love eight.

Speaker 4 (01:22:21):
It goes on fire, and it's thought only makes sense
that Carrie is the one who did it.

Speaker 3 (01:22:27):
Because Liz is also getting harassed right with these text messages,
Like David and her are sitting there watching a movie
and all of a sudden, she's getting text messages from
you know this Carrie, you know, harassing her like just
because you know, apparently it looks like, you know, she's
just really jealous of Liz, right, and you're like, oh
my god, this lady's crazy. You're as you're watching it anyway, okay, oh,

(01:22:53):
I know watching it all over.

Speaker 2 (01:22:55):
It's a complicated story to it. It's a nice job
for at Armstrong because it's a hard one.

Speaker 4 (01:23:02):
It's a compla It was very complicated. So this went
on for literal years. We have Liz's house has been
burnt down, and then Dave and his poor X with
the children are being absolutely tormented. What it turns out,
and this has took five entire years, was that Liz,

(01:23:24):
the woman whose house was burned down with her animals
inside of it, she had been pretending to be Carrie
this entire time and digitally harassing herself so Dave would
feel that they were so had to go, but going
so far as to burn her house on fire with
her animals inside.

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
It's also I thought it was Kendra from an unknown
caller blowing eye.

Speaker 3 (01:23:50):
I was like, wait, did Kendra just show up? Beginning
she had it again? But no, it was even more insane.

Speaker 6 (01:23:59):
And messages were horrific.

Speaker 3 (01:24:01):
So all these yeah, all these harassing and horrible things
were coming from Liz, and she was setting up Carrie
to she was ruining her reputation. She you know, obviously
had her cell phone. So where's Carrie? Right, You're like, oh,
my god, okig, what's going on here? Exactly?

Speaker 4 (01:24:23):
Very very very sadly, it turns out that Liz had
murdered Carrie after meeting her for about thirty seconds rights
in a hallway at Dave's. It was the most chance meeting.
And this woman, Liz lost her brains, killed this poor

(01:24:43):
woman and then dragged her reputation for five years.

Speaker 3 (01:24:49):
Wow, and go ahead, no you go. I was just
going to say. They when they finally figured it out,
it was because they got a search warrant. They got
her tablet, remember cops, they get Liz's electronics and they
go through it, and she had taken photos of the.

Speaker 6 (01:25:06):
Murder, like the foot or something.

Speaker 3 (01:25:09):
Yes, of Carrie's you know, body, and then they found
all that blood in the car in her car seat,
remember in her car seat.

Speaker 6 (01:25:19):
My god, underneath the material I mean the detectives that
were looking into this though, kudas to them, because they
amazing really stuck with it. That's what stood up to
me the most, Like had this been in the hands
of some detectives who are like, oh wow, I'm moving
on these guys like they were not giving up and
thank god they didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:25:37):
But right they almost have like a Spidey sense. It
seems to like, how what did you guys take away? Like,
what is the takeaway from this mess?

Speaker 4 (01:25:48):
I love, I felt so sorry for Dave and everyone involved,
and I just I really adored him, even when he
intersaced himself, and I moved Amaha to be with my kids,
and I got a job turn in wrench because I
turned wrench andm a mechanic, and I just I found
him so charming and innocent and tortured. I mean, he

(01:26:09):
said he was almost driven insane, as was his ex
by this horrible situation. So I take that away and
give big ups to the forensics.

Speaker 6 (01:26:20):
That, yeah, that stood out to me. I think just
my takeaway is like, you know, sometimes there's an inner
voice that says this is weird, or like something like
maybe how we're saying that that cross path of the
two women early on seems strange. Maybe start listening to
my inner voice all the time, like, you know, you
got something weird that I feel I'm going to listen

(01:26:41):
to that. So that was that was my takeaway. Maybe
it's not true.

Speaker 3 (01:26:45):
Mine was like, how how you know technology and your
ID you know, identity and perception can be really manipulated
pretty easily as long as you have something like you know,
Carrie had I'm sorry now Liz had Carrie's phone. So
poor Carrie, the victim here is been re victimized and

(01:27:07):
made to look like an insane person to everyone, right
even her family by the way, wow, because they didn't
know where she was. I mean, it was it's just
how easily things can be manipulated by one piece of evidence.
And this one piece of evidence was the phone that
Liz had. Like Carrie's entire life like vanished because of

(01:27:29):
Liz manipulating everyone in Carrie's life. And it's just it really,
it was just really eye opening to me on how
easily things can be manipulated by one thing. And it
was really terrible.

Speaker 4 (01:27:42):
Carrie's mother, the victim's mother, is really her connection with
the officers is I think what really helped propel them
and Henry and so many officers do say this, it's
talking with the victims' families, who again, Carrie at this
time was being portrayed to be horrible human being, but

(01:28:02):
they said that they connected with the mother and really
just thought of what it isn't what it looks like,
and yeah, that's just it was. It was touching to
me how much work and time and years of effort.

Speaker 6 (01:28:17):
That they put into it. When they the guy who
was doing the digital forensics, when he was really digging
deep into looking for her the way, he was amazing.
I thought of you, body, and I was going to
ask you, like, I don't know if you know off
the top of your head, but like, is there a
way to protect yourself a little bit from like, you know,
these people? I know this is like on the spot,
but like I thought, Okay, the guy got a different

(01:28:39):
phone number, but she was still able to find it, Like,
is there a way do we know any world where
you can.

Speaker 3 (01:28:45):
Well she was able to find it because she was
like dating him, right, she was his life. She was
in his life. No, I mean not really.

Speaker 6 (01:28:54):
So there's nothing that poor Dave could have done.

Speaker 3 (01:28:56):
They didn't do anything was and Dave did everything right
in my opinion, except for uh, not getting that red
flag early on when was just kind.

Speaker 6 (01:29:04):
Of showed up.

Speaker 3 (01:29:05):
But I mean in reality, Dave did everything right. Yeah,
he he really did. He protected his kids. He I
like you, Courtney, my heart really went out to Dave.
I felt very strongly about protecting him a little bit,
you know, like I felt terrible for him. He felt betrayed,
and you know, he he talked about the psychological toll

(01:29:26):
of this constant uncertainty, paranoia and not knowing what was real, right,
like his entire reality was shattered. Oh, I just I
just felt I just felt like very raw about him,
about what happened to him. I just it was very upsetting.
Like I'm never going no, yeah, I know.

Speaker 6 (01:29:45):
That now I'm afraid to do anything or talk to him.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
I know many people fline, so let that that be
a total deterrent.

Speaker 3 (01:29:54):
This is a rare truth.

Speaker 2 (01:29:55):
And you met them, and you do have to meet
in public, and don't go to anybody's house and first date.
I mean, there's some basics. Do not go to anyone's house, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:30:06):
Never, and never let them pick you up. Meet them
there and tell people where you're going exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:30:12):
You can have your friend, like one of you guys
as the fan caller, you know, like oh, you know,
just like a check in or whatever, but there are
some very I gotta go.

Speaker 3 (01:30:22):
Oh my goodness, I forgot I had to go to
the airport.

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):
Oh shoot, I gotta go. But yeah, I mean it's
so true. And by the way, if you're Dave and
you don't really hear about these types of stories because
you're not listening to or any of these crime shows,
like he's like just thinking like a kind normal person,
not realizing what red flags even are.

Speaker 3 (01:30:42):
Yeah, that's true because he hadn't dated and so yeah,
he's in the wild world. You wouldn't unless you're unless
you're experienced, right, and you only get that experience by
dating interact point, You're right, a lot of people do
meet online. It's kind of like the new grocery store. Sure,
so we shouldn't be so bitter.

Speaker 6 (01:31:01):
Well, whoever recommended this, I can officiate.

Speaker 2 (01:31:05):
I have.

Speaker 3 (01:31:05):
I'm able to officiate weddings. Are you really if we
want to.

Speaker 2 (01:31:10):
Do one internal happy to do it.

Speaker 3 (01:31:13):
I just propose.

Speaker 4 (01:31:14):
Well, no, now they're going to have to pick. Is
it going to be me or Stephanie? Yeah, we're both official. Yeah,
we're both officians at heart. I would choose Courtney, but
I would choose Courtney, but I will be.

Speaker 3 (01:31:30):
The best party planner, I promise.

Speaker 2 (01:31:32):
Listen everybody, it's been an amazing night. We will be
back tomorrow Barry more. Few lots of updates on that
as well. Lots to discuss there. This is true crime tonight.
We're talking true crime all the time.

Speaker 3 (01:31:43):
Be safe.